The Sun.
London, England, 1855-02-20 00:00:00

TI EN SUN

. -
Minor, where it wouldbe easy to raise such a body
amongst
the tribes of Anatolia.
Mr. JOHN M`GREGGOR (who rose amid some confu-
sion) said, that if the house would not give him a hearing,
he should move that the Chairman report progress. (Oh'.)
In spite of the sneers which met hire from hon. gentlemen
opposite (on the Ministerial benches), he wished to express
his opinions upon the question which had caused so much
excitement throughout the country. He wished to saythat
he had great confidence in the noble lard at the head of the
Government, but that he had no confidence in the Cabinet
which the noble lord had formed, for it was a Cabinet
condemned alike by the country, by this house, and, with
one exception by every public paper in the kingdom.
(" Oh, oh !" and laughter.) With regard to what
had been said of our officers, he would state his belief that
there was no officer more deserving of our admiration than
was Sir Colin Campbell for his conduct in the field ; and
of the Duke of Cambridge he would also observe that there
wag not in the whole course of history a record of more
heroic conduct than that exhibited by his Royal Highness.
He could not allow that, as to these two officers at least,
there was any want of bravery or of military skill. (Hear,
hear.) But then he came to the supplies sent out to our
army, and on this subject he would express his belief that
there was not a single house of respectability in London,
in Liverpool, or Glasgow that would not be ashamed of the
manner in which these supplies had been sent out. Every
merchant sent out supplies in a satisfactory manner. Take,
for example, the house of Green and Co. (Laughter.) Yes
but not " green" in their experience and mode of conduct-
ing busizesa. The Admiralty were "green"—(laughter)—
and the Commissariat wero " green." (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) But he was referring to Messrs. Green and Co.,
the great shipowners, and if they examined into the sub-
ject they would find that all their cargoes were delivered in
proper order and according to schedule, while, as to our
own ships, nobody seemed to know where to find the arti-
cles which composed their cargoes. We had a new Go-
vernment. Yes ! But had we new men to carry out the
views and the honest designs (as he believed them to be) of
that Government? Nothing of the kind. They had found
it a matter of ease and comfort to take the actual staff of
blundering subordinates already in existence. Then they
were threatened with a dissolution of Parliament. For his
own part, he never could go to his constituents so comfort-
ably as he could now. But he believed that those members
who had voted, or who should vote, in opposition to in-
quiry would, on going to their constituents, find themselves
in a miserable position. (Cheers and laughter.) Speaking
in the fall spirit of an independent member, he deplored
the position of the noble lord, and deplored his choice of a
Cabinet which, he repeated, did not possess the confidence
of the country.
Mr. RICH observed that the increase in the number of
troops during the present year was 35,000, besides an ar-
rear of 5,000 voted last year, but who could not be raised
on account of recruits not coming forward. He thought
the allowance of 20,000 for casualties extremely low, as
unhappily there had not been fewer than 30,000 during the
past year in the Crimea. He thought it was a most seri-
ous subject, and requested to know the total number of
the army. According to the vote, 40,000 men were to be
raised. The casualties were put at 20,000, but he was sure
40,000 would be nearer the mark. Before the house
came to a vote, it ought to be informed how the force was
to be kept up.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said there would be no objection
on the part of the house to vote certain sums which had
been asked for. They had voted nearly the same sums last
yea:—for instance, for the clothing, but the clothing never
got there—(laughter)—and he had heard no statement to
explain how the clothes which they were going to pay for
would also arrive at their destination. The house was
going to vote a certain number of horses ; they had horses
last year, but they had been starved to death. (Hear.)
They were going to send out horses to the Crimea, but it
had not been stated, either that night or at any other time
whether any alteration had been made since that time
twelve months which might show thehouse that they were
not going to starve the horses again. He was of opinion
that the house ought not to vote 9,000 horses to be starved
to death—(hear)—and he asked what machinery had they
now—what man had they who would say, " These things
shall not be ; do your duty, or I will turn you out, every
one of you ?" A man of strong mind and will was wanted,
and not a twaddling red.-tapist who would starve the
troops. (Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. NE WDEGATE hoped the committee would consi-
der that this was already the 19th of February, and would
insist upon knowing whether means were being taken to
provide the troops in the Crimea with clothing for sum-
mer. He should repeat his question that day wee, and he
hoped the Under-Secretary for the War Department would
get up and say that this clothing was in progress; for it
was surely time that it was being prepared. With respect
to the cavalry, he had heard that they had no horses. If
they wanted horses fit for immediate service, he hoped that
they would not rely upon such horses as they could pur-
chase for 401., unless some limit was assigned to prepare
them for the exposure they would have to undergo. If
they were at once taken from the warm stables of England
to the pickets in the Crimea, they would die like rotten
sheep. He trusted that Government would take care that
these horses should be immediately put through some
course to prepare them for the service they would have to
meet. He had been informed that some of the irregular
cavalry in India had volunteered for service in Turkey.
Why had these men not been made use of ? He trusted
that Government would not reject this proposal, which
would give them seasoned troops and seasoned horses for
the ensuing campaign. He eulogised the conduct of the
regimental officers, which had been as far before those of
other nations as their men had been before the men of
other nations. They had always won the victory, and they
had only asked for one condition, namely, that they should
be brought face to face with the enemy. Where, then,
was the failure ? Were the duties of the transport service
or of the commissariat performed by members of the aris-
tocracy ? Was the medical department in the hands of the
aristocracy? The failure in the Crimea was due to the
commissariat, to the miserable substitute for the transport
service, and to the inefficient staff of medical officers.

Now he (Mr. Newdegate) maintained that the gentlemen
and noblemen of England engaged in the service of the
country in regimental or in high commands had done their
duty. (Hear, hear:) But those which were called the
civil departments had lapsed into a miserable state of con-
fusion. There appeared to be amongst them no mind of
sufficient calibre to rectify the evils engendered by a long
period of peace. It was, in his opinion, those civil de-
partments, and not the aristocratic branches of the army,
in which the failures had occurred or to which the cala-
mities in the Crimea were to be attributed. (Hear.)
Mr. OP WAY said it was to the inaptitude of the gentle-
men who composed the important branches of the service
that the failures were owing. He meant the staff of the
army. (Hear.) There was in this conntry an establish-
ment ably conducted by professors of eminence, to which
every officer in the army could have access by applying for
it. They might there learn everything necessary to fit them
for staff duties ; and he believed this establishment sent out
annually 30 officers fitly qualified for every department of
the army. Unfortunately, however, these officers were
hardly ever appointed to staff situations— (hear)—and the
consequence was, that the staff of the English army was so
inefficient that it brought upon it the derision of every
foreign officer who might come into contact with it. (Hear.)
He had no objection to the vote, and he was surprised that
the number of troops asked for was so small, if the Govern-
ment thought there was a chance of procuring more. He
could not, however, help expressing his regret that, consi-
dering the deficiencies of the military system, the hon. gen-
tleman the Under Secretary of the 'War Department (Mr.
F. Peel) should not have inaugurated his advent to the office
by expressing his intention of introducing modifications
into some parts of that system. For instance, the manner
in which commissions were purchased in the service was a
most ridiculous arrangement. Some steps had been taken
in the right direction • but the system of the French army
ought to be carried out, by which a certain number of va-
cancies amongst the officers were filled up from the ranks.
The result was, that every man who joined the ranks of the
French army could rely upon it, that if he distinguished
himself in battle, or in any other way, he was certain of
being promoted to the rank of officer, which was his right.
He had suggested before that the cavalry from India should
be employed in Turkey, but the proposition had been
coldly received. Why did they not send for some regiments
from India? There were the Sikh, Scinde, and Goorkab
regiments, who were excellent soldiers and well-mounted,
as every one who had seen the Arab horses upon which
the cavalry in India were mounted would admit. He knew
that in the campaign in Cabul and Affghanistan there were
less casualties amongst these horses, which were never
in stables but always picketed, than there were upon or-
dinary service in England. There was another point in the
purchase system which deserved serious attention—viz.,
with reference to the pensions of widows of officers who
fell not in active service, but who died in the service of
their country from other causes. They had had to deplore
the loss of several members of the house, some of whom
had fallen in battle, some from sickness. What was the
case with regard to one member of the house—an officer in
the Guards. He must have paid some 8,0001. or 9,0001.
for his commission. He did not mean to presume to enter
into any family affairs, but he had a right to presume that
that man was like the generality of officers, not a man of
large fortune. Supposing he was a married man, and left
children unprovided for, it was unjust that, this officer
having died from sickness under ouch circumstances, his
wife and family should have no provision from the State.
The next thing he heard was that the eldest son of a peer,
one of the richest men in England, was appointed to the
-vacant commission without purchase. It was a monstrous
injustice that a commission in the Guards, which ought to
be the reward of distinguished merit, should, under these
circumstances, have been obtained without any purchase-
money being paid by that officer, or at least some money
being paid into the fund out of which the pensions were
provided.

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, the hon. and gallant officer
who began this discussion entered into an argument upon
the general arrangements which her Majesty's Government
have made with regard to the war. He stated his opinion
thatlla this country, not being, as he conceives, a military
engage—in
ought not, when it embarked—or was compelled to
-7-in war with Russia, to have attempted any
opera-
tions with a y
militar force, but ought to have confined it-
self entirely to naval operations ions by the fleet ; and he seemed
to think that it
to blockade the wouldßna have
been sufficient to send a fleet
fleet to blockade thealta:,4 n
ports in the Baltic, and. another
ports in the Black Sea, and
.that by these means we Russian
to should have been able to coerce
n
the Russian Government
compel them to accede to
the terms we might have thought fit to require. Now, I
and
most entirely differ from the hon.
t t
gallant member
upon that point. It is manifest, I thin
everybody
that the mere action of a naval force never°
exercised such a coercion upon the Government ouflt Russia
as to accomplish any decisive or useful results. I'don;
entirely the assertion the hon. and gallant member has
made, that the operations of the navy were attended by no
result. He said that we had sent out a magnificent fleet
to the Baltic, and that it same back without having done
anything. I utterly deny that. (Hear.) In the first place,
it destroyed that which was the beginning of a great naval
position at Borearsund, intended to have been even on a
greater scale than Cronstadt—and was this nothing to have
accomplished ? Does the hon. and gallant member forget
that in the Russian ports in the Baltic there were from 27
to 30 sail-of the-line, from 27 to 30 frigates, together with
steamers and smaller vessels in abundance ? And if wo had
bot had a large and formidable naval power in the Baltic,
you would have had the whole of this fleet scouring the
teas—(hear)—ravaging your commerce, threatening your
shores, and inflicting injury and disgrace on this country.
(Hear.) I say, therefore, that it is unfair, unjust, and un-
true to assert that the fleet accomplished nothing, when it
cooped up this formidable power during the whole of the
season when it might have visited this country, which was
thus kept free from that detriment it might otherwise have
suffered from the escape even of a portion of the Russian
fleet. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the military opera-
tions which we undertook, it ie plain that if you intended
to bring Russia to terms you must strike a- blow some-
wMeneje.... Would the hon. and gallant member have had us
a vict army into Central Russia ? We might have gained
°'j there, and not have been a step nearer a decisive

result. We adopted a different course, and endeavoured
to strike a blow where it would be the most sensibly felt,
and where it would be the greater if we succeeded. We
undertook the war to defend Turkey against the aggres-
sion of Russia. We did not undertake it, as some have
represented, because we preferred a Mahomedan to a
Christian. We made war because it was to the interests
of the world that the vast region under the sway of Tur-
key should not fall under the dominion of Russia. (Hear.)
Where did that danger lie ? In the Black Sea. It was
manifest that Austria had such an interest in protecting 1
Turkey from any formidable invasion by land that we
might leave the protection of the land frontier of Turkey
to the arms of Turkey (which did, in fact, for 12 months
oppose a barrier to the inroads of Russia), and to the com-
bined forces of Turkey and Austria, should it become ab-
solutely necessary for that power to interfere. It is clear,
then, that the great power of Russia as against Turkey
lay in Sebastopol ; it was its great fleet that had the do-
minion of the Black Sea ; it was in that arsenal that its
great fleet rested in security, and from which it could
issue, as it were, with the promptitude of lightening, and
sweep down upon Constantinople. At Sebastopol there
was centered the great power of Russia ; and, if we de-
sired to strike an effectual blow at it, it was there that
we must do it. (Hear, hear.) The difficulties attendant
upon this expedition were greater than were anticipated
when we undertook it. I will not now enter into a dis-
cussion as to whether these difficulties were increased
by want of arrangement er bad management on the
spot, Houseandththeeervoi s
of omugehnt
wtoholohoakve
nwithotha thee indul-
genceon
expe-
rience in the duties they were called upon suddenly to per-
form which might have enabled them to have discharged
those duties with greater efficiency and success. The hon.
and gallant member said that we have an academy here in
which staff officers may learn their duties ; but it is well
known that learning duties in an academy, and the actual
Performance of them, are as different as any two things
can well be. (Hear.) The armies on the Continent have
a great advantage in this respect over the army of Eng-
land. On the Continent the great bulk of the armies are
within the Government territory—they assemble in large
bodies and are called together for great operations in the
summer, and a mimic war teaches them the duties of a
real campaign. Our army has not had that advantage, and
the first instance in which anything of the kind took place
was when, in small numbers, the troops assembled !at
Chobham ; therefore we ought not to condemn too hastily
men who have not had the opportunity of practising duties
they were called upon to perform under circumstances of
unparalleled difficulty. So much for the policy of her Ma-
jesty's Government in the conduct of the war, and, had we
confined it to naval operations, it would have been perfect
imbecility on our part to have done so ; and I contend
that, having entered on military operations, that the point
to which these operations have been directed was the point,
and the only point, where an effectual blow could be struck
at the adversary with whom we are engaged. (Cheers.)
An hon. member has made a suggestion worthy of conside-
ration. He stated the hardships that fell on officers re-
turning to this country, suffering from wounds received in
the service, being unable to receive that assistance from
the hospitals which naval officers do. lam unable to say
whether the military arrangements will, at present, permit
of any such arrangement ; but the suggestion is one worthy
of the consideration of the Government. (Hear, hear.) My
lion. friend says that, when an officer has received a severe
wound, the regulations of the service give him a gratuity
of a year's pay, which is to enable him to receive such
medical assistance as the condition of his wounds may re-
quire. My hon. friend the member for Lambeth, as usual,
condemned the household troops ; he thought there was
no use in having a body of men like these, created with
higher pay and privileges than the rest of the army. We
are often told that we ought to imitate the military orga-
nisation of foreign countries, and that the reason that our
operations are not so successful is because we do not follow
their example. Now, if there is one arrangement that
prevails more than any other in foreign armies it is that
of having some one corps entitled to greater privileges and
distinction than the rest bf the army. To such an extent
is this carried in the French service, that the Imperial
Guard has been re-organised, it having of late years been
abolished, and I lately had the pleasure of seeing 13,000 of
these tine troops reviewed in the gardens of the Tuileries.
Whether we take the Russian, the Austrian, Prussian, or
French armies—in all these services there will be foundC a
body of troops corresponding with the brigade of Guards
—and as to the manner in which these troops perform
their duty—(cheers)—l can only say that if there is on
any occasion a desperate resistance to be made, or a dis-
tinguished service to be performed, there is always a regi-
ment of the Guards to do it. (Cheers.) It has been ob-
jected by a noble lord (Seymour) that the Household Bri-
gade was only for show—that it could never be employed
—that both men and horses were too heavy—does my
noble friend forget the battle of Waterloo? (Hear, hear.)
Does he forget that it was the weight of the men and the
weight of the horses that this beautiful force overpowerd
ererything that was opposed to them on the field of Wa-
terloo ? Does he forget that in the Peninsula the House-
hold Brigade was employed with great utility and success?
They have not been sent to the Crimea because it is too
distant, and the nature of the ground does not require
troops of this particular description. The hon. member
for Lambeth was sorry at not seeing in the estimates
that consolidation of the departments which has been
announced as desirable. The fact is, there is no con-
solidation of the departments which can supersede the
necessity of having a great number of clerks for the
examination and settlement of the accounts for the army
and the militia, and others sent into the War-office; there-
fore, any hon. members who wished that, by placing all
the civil departments under the Secretary of State for War
(that they might avoid having establishments for the differ-
ent services, which, with their several branches, were to
be placed under the control of the Seeretary for War),
must not expect that when the arrangements are completed,
that they will do away with the necessity of providing
establishments for the discharge of the duties of the civil
service. The hon. member for Inverness said that we be-
gan the war without any land transport service—he is mis-
taken in this—we began without any separate corps, we
now propose to have one specially devoted to the land
transport. It was under the commissariat, and great in-
convenience was found to arise from the combination of
two services totally distinct—viz., that of procuring sup-
plies, and that of transporting to the place required ; but
we had a large number of horses and mules at Varna spe-
cially providd for the land transport. It was not possible
to carry them over to the Crimea when the troops went,
and circumstances arose that would not admit of their be-
ing sent afterwards. But the arrangement we are propos-
ing is not the creation for the first time of means of land
transport, those means having already existed in the com-
missariat department ; it is the transferring them to a
separate establishment, whose single duty it will be to look
after that service and perform it correctly, and we think
that great advantage will arise from such a concentration
of the transport service in one particular department. An
bon. gentleman also observed upon the calamity which be-
fell a great number of the horses, who died for want of
forage, and he ascribed it to great neglect on the part of
those whose duty it was to provide for them ; but the
honourable gentleman, perhaps, is not aware that in the
unfortunate hurricane in which the Prince was lost there
was lost twenty days' forage for the animals belonging to
the camp. In the transports wrecked in that storm was
lost forage that would have supplied the animals in the
camp for 20 days—(hear, hear)—and, of course, it was very
difficult for a long time to replace it. Then came the bad-
ness and impracticability of the road, and there was great
difficulty in bringing anything from the harbour up to the
camp, which led to the consequence that, while their were
abundant supplies of various kinds at that port, those in
the camp for whom they were intended were left in a state
of great suffering for the want of them. The hon. mem-
ber for Inverness asked a question as to what progress we
had made in raising a foreign corps. He stated with great
force that we urged in the early part of the session the
great necessity of passing a bill to enable us to raise
foreign troops, and that I especially entreated the house to
consent to that bill in order that we might without loss of
time enlist foreign troop: to go to the assistance of our own
troops in the Crimea. It is perfectly true that hitherto we
have not succeeded in acting upon that bill, and why ?
(Hear.) I must tell the house the truth, however unplea-
sant it may to some to hear it; bat the reason why we
have not succeeded has been the language—(cheers)—l am
forced to say it—has been the language which was used in
debates in this and the other House of Parliament, and
which created such a feeling of resentment and indigna-
tion throughout the continent of Europe that those per-
sons who had before been prepared to take letters of ser-
vice to raise troops in Germany threw them up, and said
that under the circumstances they were unable to raise a
man. (Cheers.) The condition, also, which was imposed
on the Government of not giving half-pay to the officers
likewise tended to impede the execution of the plan. I
undertake to say that if Parliament had not put in &clam.,
prohibiting the granting of half-pay to the officers, and if
language of so insulting a kind had not been held with re-
gard to what were called " mercenary troops, Germans,
Belgians, Heaven knows who"—(hear, hear)—thus raising
the national feeling of the continent against us, by this
time we should have had a very different story to tell.
(Hear. hear.) This has not altered the feeling of the con-
tinent with regard to the cause in which we are engaged ;
they still say that England is right and wish us success,
but, after the language held with regard to these nationali-
ties, they dealare that they cannot take service under the
Government. I should not have made this statement,
which might be considered as a reproach to gentlemen in
the two Houses of Parliament, but when I am asked for a
reason lam forced to give it. (Hear.) Then, my hon.
friend the member for Devonport asked a very rational
question. He said, commissions are given to non-commis-
sioned officers, and those commissions involve considerable
expense, and he asked whether any provision had been
made to enable the gallant met on whom those rewards
were conferred to defray the expenses attendant upon them.
My hon. friend has not studied these estimates, certainly
large in bulk ; but, if he will look to page 4, he will find
that a sum of 5,0001. is proposed to be voted especially as a
gratuity to these deserving men to enable them to meet the
first expenses of their commissions. (Hear, hear.) And, in-
deed, as a proof that we ars not unmindful of the service,
of non-commissioned officers—even those to whom com-
missions cannot be given—it will be seen that there is a
long list of non-oommissioned officers to whom good service
gratuities for life are to be given, amounting to 2,0001. or
more, in the same part which contains the list of pensions
to officers. The hon. gentleman opposite told us that that
happens which I can easily believe—namely, that soldiers
sent to the hospitals are frequently, by the loss of their
knapsacks, rendered destitute of knives and forks, and
those things which are really very essential to their com-
fort, and he added that difficulty has sometimes arisen in
providing them at the hospitals. That evil was under-
stood, and orders were given to purchase a very large num-
ber of knives and forks at Marseilles specially for the ser-
vice of Scutari hospital, in order to furnish them to sol-
diers who might come unprovided with those necessary ar-
ticles for their daily use. The hon. member for Aylesbury
certainly made some very proper remarks. He stated that
it. was essential that a new supply of tents should be pro-
vided for the use of the army in the ensuing campaign.
I can assure him that that shall be duly attended to, and I
trust the tents will be of a sufficiently substantial descrip-
tlitoni s. quite true that service
They will not be old tnts ; they will be new tents,
perfectly fit for
it tent much more for which they are destined.
portable
French have been provided with
although it is far more portable,
than that of the English, but,
Tete able, it is by no means so well
adapted to protect the from the inclemency of the
weather ; it is a roost convenient
f tent for light service ; it
is only about three or four feuentarlm the
is easily carried and put
ground, it barely
gurythe inferiority
troops,eurthhta
rt
oot hp model,es
affords shelter at the sides,
up ; but the French officers felt so
of their tent as compared with that of o
French General sent to France for tents
considering that, in
. the weather to which the French
were exposed, their tent was an insufficient shelter, and
that ours was a far better protection to the men. Th hon.
gentleman also made a very good suggestion, far better
than that which was made afterwards, with regard to the
supply of light cavalry. It is perfectly true as he sug-
gested, that in all probability light cavalry might be ob-
tained from Asia Nino; and I am quite sure if it could, it
would be far better .-1 point of economy and expenditure to
obtain it thence, than to bring it from India, as the tran-
sport from that country would be tedious and expensive,