The Sun.
London, England, 1855-04-24 00:00:00

I'IP-ERC-CL PARLIAMENT.

11°Q OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
WAys AND BEANS—REPORT,
f,. (Continued front our int, ression of yesterday,)
.7
hr iti
_PCt.taar'et,%'sA(DeleSTtO)N4irclVtllll bad power to give effect ?
NE-ghat use. of. enactinggiye aac
pledge.lanse
t,,,
,:;11 e purperted to be a contract to
see" hive validity to a pledge it was necessary that it
te),°,l4 ivet) to b pledge
nd by somebody who. hail a
eitting seal f '
the right of
t '''
t°
give it Bs°nturhe°lfuuare Parliament who might be
the I,,e__ . ae,elll.! years hence questionwoultl.
Nflying cut 1- hament to fetter their discretion_ by seem-
eter] pai ticular amount they sh. ut o 1 I devote to the re-
eizavi,otsitu ;2 ethi the particular stock in whic.hsttihyeyeays_htobneliyi
,rer "- qnestiona of which they won" Ju
g Parliaeoiietrto raisetauPeP
am,
. 9 better judge% than
.we. It was the duty of the
theseanelaliture form4oillrethe t
pro
.nationaloeor
‘4, And they Ovew:rte tirweslialies:ilntgonornonte theet r Ivs'n
when f
dlli° w"rdd ?succeed them on those bTesueh years
soei On Aral so many millions in such n
,-. ' ne tal . e
pThiciiiar elm roni _ epu ec
i th b'; Treesury
And not Only did this cl.ius
t.refess to Is I)9
(II
1 A
uruorrittee.that eaarc.'ertainn' sum and
deveted to ae
should at a future
blet itt?.'evoted to the redemption of the national debt,
Itenaerilli:lrted to apply that sum to the rep.aym
860 or
ent of
plus
eel() it
~_• . ed, eve
noteho eould tell now whetheroienrleor
tee, .iignt be the wiser course to devote
or
whether
at eetTe to the
trePartnent of Exchequer
.hills bonds,ore
they :eel s.'"°e4:? (Hear.he real question wa ,e,
f surplus
itieo_ ere Ile,i, ._
eve promo to mai ntenanee o
th Ile ity enactments f this kind. For his own. pa_rt, he
ow.), ear,. o
the 4e, liament would do better to rest satisfied with
tee r rt"rmance °fie, own eety, and not to
.undertake.llrtae.
001 flallr pi• " , -' • by making de, •
tioii,
or . e, arearnents their duties,
give them the
Ilightettls'°!°g instructions which did not
opiein_
.ssistance to do such duty. Nor wins he efth Ref this kind Etta ct•
kept li that a clause of this kind was harmless,.
bone 0 People. The even of
h tto.d a te.n detn ctyhteobtehlireof voidato sttbl tin
gill wool,}eve
10.
tizeich we were pretty
se
,_, , y eave rise o
be
for the creation
eferitseY tended to give undue facilities for
tarefoteveziardtabedprovide paper facilities
welt convince,}
.. would not.
for theireearY loans, by professing to
tt that con-
redemption. Re thought that the meorere straight.
explicit the house was in all m a
and in this
el-le the stet lllnneY n.f the people, the better;_es
tothitg 10
LemPt which they called p.rn il
in laake Ilb vagll4 paper promises whichthey
to fulfil.
Ile eiti °(1 which they would not find othe
had no orrielhlyt
tliett 4.11'4 think such a course either wise. jureet,
as One
other ,or. Parliament to pursue. (Hear ) There wt. o
of
the hePallit to vvhich he washed to call the atten i
or expe-
,the other . i
-t was no doubt through inadvertence that on
the
reeiv.l?ight the house passed, not merely be
teemed" ';',o?g to the loan, and those in i:efere
in conformity
eat tisli9tioa on coffee, sugar, and spirits, /
reference to the
t to the in-
athetio7_, eniael, custom, but also those in re _
stamp
cicioettlyt onu'ililiake,:sii,e-ethax, and thel onetterre imposingwereye'ry.
eld
be neert,".°fle be
reescgullions oo‘frilie 'former kind
tsa• Tut
eittii,v_ea ea the night of the finuncial stateieea
he
,e,
Cottko ,4elsots did not exist in the latter car, and. gi(_!
heirlll that Parliament would be inclined to give
eeit,,_ re4ht of fully thecussine these resolutions,
calledie
fie ilter the necessity of .the ease nor previous mit?
Situiv
444 e fn, tie had no doubt that what had occurr
not be
drawe 1 a inadvertence hut he hoped it would
4, 'lt," 8 Preeedent. ' (Hear hear.)
et the I,” u,l•ll\i 3PGR EGO Et sail that the
to
Pablk ''`eneetter o ght to h aye thrown the loan
ornhe-
'ar • Frnop,titlon u I h tChancellor a the xc .
ti__ treii, Lave . ant t a, the 1
on
eet 14,4" J err 20,0000)0Chancellor
• terminable
i Itehe "an 4 Per cent which, with '
ere qer-bills er3 000,
000 a In. uoi
f.
11 have" •
i,, caned, re 'b
oa
'
to the imposition.
ii".reese,i
tit ll out having recourse
given him all thefunds..
of
agreed with
it ri ti , dies on tea and coffee. He quite • 'ty of
Oeto ,`'` fla. fri
for the University I,_ Jet teat •„ e end the member t
to
pledge a future
th'erifila:ienttitntb:use bad no right
krl/4, t, "" i a urrreela.ym( Hetaor, hear. )
en f rl-000,00_1.
in
tel., '.tNG Reaiil th the desired to say a few war's r
~, net's, , a per annum of
the bon.
L'Ataeenine
ear the rem which he had made on a forme
be: 'i'•ll9lch irksai , misepprehended hY
t on that
t-ratisiet
(~°r_tattetingdon Mr. Baring) He did
In] raised by
ill„lnnabr,u_tend that this loan should haveeboeneteedeit
was,
44ettivir,t, sonarativietse simply. _ What h
1 asitbleeto raise it by one
tk'ti'lllaallitlern4tives elelelifierraftecot Ytl' hy a system° ofa
14,11'iIhelreina,.ali_uities, and thef other-eose bbeyhtilige creation
tf-
iih their credit,
tt, ii'n resiiTia rate of intereut-probably 3i per cen ..
le ay.' tai, ,ulve enabled Government,
stated, the
e,,Par. il ne the requisite amount of stockw in the market
ivvortteZ.the res. tit plan, as he had then.
siiLerest,tiu,';laerificetl the chance of reducing
i and it had
etl'aeott,,,,,tne, Whole amount if they bon•owet ,
_eat. con.
141tItierre to`ateohilairomett..th rate of
U
Wiate",','. disad
for as the Three Per u deiiien
vantage,
the money
the
hN„,l4lloth 3' dePressed their own va u ,
regulated. For that
marlkeet,
but
of eg ea teer the cities which they
1 the .
creation
"ea "°llght th le 1•a to avou 1 eat
aalso • .
%klir Thre ey oug t a %TAY tin cases O. have
1),, tetley
„...e Per Cent. C 'mole. excep
loan might .
41rsii . tie Still maint •fined that the
A the possible
Icy 'r Re it. I'l terminable annuities, and that.
„or, of /rice.
Pete . In' th
a en?"' he had
littl,„ rtinr,e, ern taken was simply ,
railways,
kind
of
50e111,7 (I,,r,t°, to the came of the Frencn.
ng that a
~ 'ty i,,
~.80,, for the purpose of show,
already invested
t al marwhich leethe millions had been its being taken
eY the , ,eetibl and that
No doubt a
-elle' etieli, e any other,of
price.
h,,tit oi•etia was sineply a question
in
instance,
made
the first .
Ilk(1111,° an'iPerifice must be f this description
,t,eitei
}el' a large amount
of
stmkavailable in the mar-
lee,4llsl we-:al°,l, it VfOtliti not be so
l wer price. But he
?tlllte L1°11411°141"
t see
bear ameoneing
the 13%°(1%.
t,lithtl, aetv ser we werPt Caostaworth while pattingup
`,!,c) hats eis_e_ of loans, i
sake of having a security.bi.
e.tyl,Peyttenvaritage for the
guaranteed by its termina.
tlifi intig
it whio, Was
Believing as he
letOt it
w'ne as Bich
of the contract.
perpetually
eeiti 0 eh„,,,,a' not right to burden posterity
the right hon.
N 44 1,. Of 'Ulla description he, like
arty to
04).remeintipo!ate (alr. Goulburn). would be no p
which.
lieereßaratei which he consiolerea entirely illusory
paper to re-
ivte eii,„l4-pIY as assertine something on ld
hold us
(ilearwheen simIZT doing something which won
ieencies.
hn. •,,i'itTr.) ef"eliti to the test of futurlthextiie riht
4r. J. , e!iiee if hill_eulatl4, the.refore Y
amendment to a division.
svas i,,,,e'4vlE afkoti.* oil his am
that money
bllt the °II la Pre ''"t:•.Oß said it was true
security,
d_r n the prefi aeh Nil*,
,i, a terminable
: elate that they
consi-
ts of th,.,i.aYs %
undertakings were so
side
4:a,!'1.9 for whateTtalthittee e;
sum being
e„.„,,,set ~the
esetelitV, rio that "te Preneh called the amortisement
would°
„eqe(le the whol the end of the terra the lenders
had itl-
Nab, (Rear, ba einotiet of the capital they .
RI xteen
nli 13 hea b' ear.) of
believed that these _
.Thr.
'cilial. be eht •,.
llor of the .6
akpeet cal as fave
,alned by the Chan„e .
as could be
,art, ea oor 1, uraele terms for the public
f the kind
tha;eli thros„lll4.4 vie ever seen an operation .0- .
b those
er!ed withle._l(l a. more creditable manner by te4lll T. 1.11,2,;1 tueting it on bshal fof the public.._
t. hoe.
Ale ie,er forth -,Ey- Was surprised to hear the rvenrimise
til,);)'6'og is*", Li niveraity of Oxford object times f the
e‘,4nYie, the rocnaption
.at a future o
his
ktkepliqy ,Zng raised on loan. For to what else did_3
iet it the tistiti nat. when he isened Exchequer bonnsteeam_
liele. t, to telpore taxes for the purpose of red
_or
4,1 'lg,init'" (4,ite agreed with the hon. men:ther
the4te of Iti thinking that although no doubt a future
ineLclale onilta,e°ll° inight reverie the decision to which
not
th„sistett
with present occasion, yet that it
iti...;_ccei,i toll their (hay ti ahow in the best manner
of tiltitlee o„ heir honesty of purpose, and that it, was their
vte,. latioo ,'e resumption of peace to impose an amount
that
,e itos, ea(leetiate to tree e a 1 ent of the loans
After , tuelit to be contrearetePdY n
te!ltel% CkpeZ words froin Mr. WILIUNSON,
re„lllie ttt;ur-VrE Lt. Raid that he had heard with , some
tilt* for ii. P.nlarle.i of the hon. member for
_Pet
i ewere
eattle• tee fori7. things were perfectly distinct
thing
_, a
P 411,1,144 tita t". 9 Rouse of Commons to do a a'
lolls Pretsitte!. etl.d the other for them to enter into vague T..
Ak4 te4iii: which they themselves had no power toember
itil'ther,,,itte'he else referred. to hy the hem a
When the
I,,thiegger i)nnettrerent from the present loan.
tholetlia i° a eert I
sin ' i were Lulled, the condition for repayment..
;nder
e. Perio s a etipuletion entered into with
was not
l'ele,ll.o likely wag Part of the contract, and..()r_,....
tie,,
humee,etto be broken. The t.axes, tillertetw_ ea, L'H
b t the
Ne,t,",e's,;elowere to ba reaiutamed. I
h i But
contended
zett4t6nttllt:ll:iva'ci 1 a
uftBne twh. Tim bcfconstitute any obligation
e,iillie t)e,,,,,,1e I that it svouuld nmoerely act as an opiate,ralrny
111 ti and that believe that thie was a mere tempoment
oeeenie.of
em Provision had been matte for its re
that ,
acier le tt fa r°
at the same time. we knewo
such
tl 14:04 tiAll'jrn al words of an act of Parliament, no
(fir 1.41, 04y. beep remade, because it was not_enic_
Wick Burghs
Ado e . lag) sai hon. member for the W
n tannin -
Aoe ittiinitie, (I that the borrowing of
money
doubt it was.
ikirse IN th:v;" a pie-ti nof price. No don
heuer to
te tsie th,
~, duty
of the Chancellor of the Exc
and
orsi", tee,
reseal calculations on matters of price,
f vourable
ql4 4 '°l' the loan was negotiated on.
as
a that the
o,:ieller
iPtiblie a,
posSible. He believed
Illatinie)°' and liee x.elleoluer had done so the present
on
ti•tted in a
that thr highly nt the present loan was ne 0
gPie thought
the , ere we "'Pante eons to the public. suffring
gie.t.e4tiees ea o°l4l advantage to be gained ben
aging to
the
4104 Alice consequent un not
oefnit4b::loan,
ill tile '"w'itl4ll a suttilY notice of the repayment
difficulty
The 0,? of ae,P,lletion imposed an insuperableres,. ,
t (Hear.)
*44 qa.aeoeveinture eduction of lute
h I listened
' h_kei the
tie n,141.0 It of the EXCHEQUER a(
arlii th 4'04 respect t the remarks of his right hon.
ti'hlid is tehllistabers for 11::o two universities upon thepro-
th,o44:aBlntion before the house with respectn toot.
ti ' ar. T'ilPaYrnent of the loan after the expiradtionom.
5t4114 great e.°Pinions which they exprossed
.woul
t• °trier' Weight, not only from their extensive financialuee_
'4 4, but , Of th4t also from their great ability on all q
,u.
!lati'rl 14 crj• tiattlre. lie fullY admitted that the ream
of ttlePete
was not a matter ot centract with the lend-
note, 4 'a 16,01 e
to the
Eli to ei ev.oo/ -that it was perfectly open
leret' 'ell" the queetion without any limit upon their
01,54 leee„..an ,
l'etiO befere 'I that they were at liberty to deal with the
e4it, lee 1140 them as they rnigut think fit. But the pr
er, artee,iiiti te'en made deliberately to the house by
.tir
thrti''Oitine ' who believed it to be a proper and defensitele
t 4 ' it the'. 'jig when the proper time came they would
L,., Nisi
()fir este.
1.,, ytO adhere to that Proposition, and take
111: think wee Lou% Upon it. ( Hear.) Re could not
Dr,,,N:t of Ot there ha I been some misapprehension on
the
ehiraitine file
lion friends as to the precise effect ofto
ex.
Itttttttio..`
3”tielitn. When he honourlilattetheprc, t
position, he
thhili'ecteli:itelntl 4igat hethv:ans aatwaarreeothat he could make no
ej, teloille 4i'vae---) that no act passed in tha, vao-
r, rneoetaldg
,asei,tei_l4l es
wn_n,t_efteen years heace- 1
ofataheir successors.
"' le trcY the ututuu tte up the hands..
friends
ioti:of it
r. i tiii, _ r ne
.oleetl(.)n Which his right hon.
act
laeltlietie_
to oposttion might be made to almost every
ratiet," thich passed that house, and affected future
tle'en ell'i ether.) There was nothingpeculiar in the pro-
*it*ri ti,),
„41! how rtisde as respeeteil a ece?trol over te
l'l h,ree,, i•lian:etit itself. The effect which the clause.
pit it
It reeeived the authority of law Was this
14) (1. eiet ea Peritement charge upon the Consolidated
I`tits '' wolll,i b
Government
't of provis. ecoine the duty of everyoo_
ally
eett. the It. ion fur the re duty
,t of 1,000, eO/.ann
aeirentiv e, a3'.B and means of the year. (Year.) R. was
kiiiii.ir tii-ttv.Te that the nation might ,Nitin be esiiitgagehiolini
toty,et INk, [4lare needit be some pressinnecessityothi
in
kit pertinit expedient that no surplus revenue ti
f 1 bt •
i' tiff; that w'v Yealebe applied to the reduction o. i e ,
t'eil -'lB th t..'l.‘i 80, it wont,' be competent to Parliament
it
,leet,s,,? eanes of the Governmen`t, and repeal, either
lacettinY or temporarily the erovWon which rendered
tkHNI nt on th - ' - •i a million ap-
es
,9 f,,,. the . e Govern about to prow, e
inake extinction of the debt. The then Parliament
ited to the
tsittieloey
or
tT:l:.proviiina which might be i.iu . ,
_fen.
Prelitie the had tune ; but until Perli•inaant 'IA
so;e°l7nrd to
ef tis;3 th, itiltts of Geveriarnent, it would be 0
• ction
Irtt th)l. (lie' on min uailv, and a.pply it to the extin .
mate to ii r., wayhat was all that it was possible
014 the of putting a limit upon the dia.

cretien of a future Parliament. They were unwilling to
create a permanent burden upon posterity ; but cireutn-
stencee prevented theui from borrowing any large Rum of
money in terminable aenuities. It had been stated by the
boa. member for Huntingdon, who spoke on subjects of
that description with great authority—and his statement
would be confirmed by all persons who carefully examined
the question—that a loan of 16,000,0 'Ol, could not effected
in terminable annuities without giving terms so extrava-
gant that the Government would justly be condemned by
that house if it consented to grant them. (Hear, hear.)
He even questioned whether, without giving terms abso-
lutely extravagant, a loan of so large a sum as sixteen
millions could be effected at all in terminable annuities for
thirty years. The objections on the part of the public to
receive their capital in driblets year by year, subjecting
them to the necessity either of spending their capital as
income, or of reinvesting it in small sums under cheque-
stances of difficulty and embarrassment, would be so great
that it was questionable whether so large a loan could to
effected at all in terminable annuities. The Government
had gone as far as they could do in effecting a portion of
the loan in terminable annuities ; anti if they had thought
it expedient to raise the bulk of it in Consols, they at the
same time proposed to apply one million annually to the
redemption of the debt so contracted. ,Trle was willing to
edmit that the obligation so to provide and apply that one
million annually was not of a paramount nature—that it
was in the power of Parliament at ::ny time to rescind it—
but it was impossible for them, without makieg the repay-
ment of the debt a matter of contract between the Govern-
ment and the lenders, to iurpOse any more stringent obli-
gatien upon future Parliaments. His right hon. friend the
member for the University of Cambridge had made some
remarks as to the inexpediency of contracting this loan in
the Three per Cent. Consuls, and had stated that he would
have preferred it to have been contracted in the Three per
Cent. Ite.lueed Aunuities, on the ground that the one could
not, be i edeeined without one year's notice, whereas in the
other description of security that was not the case. The
right hon. gentleman spoke of Consols as if they were an
unredeetnable stock. In doing so, he confounded two ideas
which appeared to be wholly different, namely, the reduc-
tion of interest upon tne stock, and the extinction of that
stock. If that house should at any future time—as he hoped
it would—snake a real sinking fund, that was to say, not
an imaginary or illusory sinking fund founded upon the
principle of borrowing and of compound interest, but a
simple sinking fund derived from the surplus taxation of
the year—he saw no reason why Console, or any other per-
petual annuities should not be re loomed by the Govern-
ment goiug into the market and buying up their own an-
nuities, thus extinguishing bath debt and interest. He
confessed he was not very sanguine as to'the possibility, at
any tithe within the lifetime of 'the present generation, of
reducing the interest of any 3 per cent, stock ; but he saw
uo reason for thinking that they might not advantageously
extinguish any amount of 3 per cent. stock by the annual
application of the surplus taxation. Some honourable
members seemed to think that it was
,not in the power
of the Government to extinguish a perpetual annuity.
They contrasted a terminable auuui' y as being something
which the Government could extinguish with a perpe-
tual annuity, as being something which the Govern-
ment could not extinguish. He must be permitted to 'say
that no error could be more apparent with regard to a sim-
ple financial question. It was convenient to the Govern-
ment to borrow in perpetual annuities, because they never
could be called upon to pay the t rincipal at any definite
time, and it was convenient to the lender to lend in perpe-
tual sten aid s, because he never could be called upon a any
definite time to receive back his principal. The conveni-
ence was mutual; but if the Government was in the pos.
&mien of a surplus revenue applicable to the extinction of
debt, it could go jute the market and buy its own perpetual
annuities, and as effectually extinguish the debt as if it
had contracted the loan 111 terminable annuities. The
propositions which had been made at different times for
the establi,huieut of a sinking fund had gone upon the as-
sumption that it would be impossible in that manner to
extinguish debts. He regretted that the acts relating to the
stnkiug funds of 1823 and 1827, Which rendered it necessary
that a surplus revenue in the first instance of 5,000,e00/.
and in the second of 3,000,0001. should be applied to the
redemption of debt, had been repealed, and he trusted that
whenever the present war should h ,ve ceased, it would be
in the disposition of Parliament to revert to that system.
But let not, the house suppose that there was any difficulty
in the n:• tore of perpetual annuities which impeded the
extin, tion of that description of stock. Something had been
sail upon the sue jest of opening a subscription loan. He
entirely concurred with the very instructive remarks made
upon that point by the hon. member for Huntingdon, who
illustrated it by a comparison of the different circumstances
of England and France. It was to be remembered that if
the Govern went had opened a subscription loan they should
nut only have encountered the difficulties referred to by the
hon. member for Huntingdon, but they would also h'.ve
created a demand upon the savings banks which they could
only have met by a sale of the stock in the hands of the
Cetmeessioners for the Iteduetion of the National Debt.
(Hear.) Nor ought hon. members t , forget another cir-
cumstance—namely, that in a loan raised by subscription
it would be necessary for the Government to fix the price
at which they would receive the eub.criptions. The lists
would necessarily be kept open for a considereble time, and
the Government, would lose the advantage of that competi-
tion_in the money market which they secured in the case
of contractors, and even when it happened, as in the pre
sent loan, that only one tender was sent in, because the
person who made the tender acted with the ktiowlelge that
if the terms he offered were not reasonable there were
others ready to come forward and
,offer more moderate
terms. (Hear.) He had listened with satisfaction to the
testimony rendered by so great an authority as the hon.
member for Huntingdon and other members of that house
with respect to the terms on which the loan had been con-
tracted. He had every reason to believe, babe all he had
heard since the acceptance of the tender, that while the
terms were fair and not disadvantageous to the con-
tractor, they were also beneficial to the public, and that the
very onerous responsibility which lay upon the executive
Government in contracting a loan without its being pos-
sible for them to obtain the previous eatiotien -of Perlia-
wont, had been fulfilled in a manner which woull, he
hoped, receive the aperoval of that house. Some remarks
had been Made as to its being desirable that the Govern-
ment should, before receiving tenders for a loan, inform
that house of the conditions upon which they proposed
effecting the loan. He could assure the house that if it
had depended urerely upon the wish of the Government to
free themselves from a somewhat painful responsibility,
they would unquestionably have resorted to that course.
They found no alternative left them, however, but strictly
to adhere to the practice of former times, and take upon
Letoselves the responsibility of making a provis:onel con-
tract before submitting the subject to that house. With re-
ference to what fell from the right hon. gentleman the
member for the University of Oxford as to the passing of
the income tax resolution on Friday night, he could only
express his regret that ho should unintentionally have
done anything contrary to the practice of the house with
reference to such resolutions.. It was entirely owing to his
inex .erience in such matters. Nothing was said on the
subject of the income tax when the resolution was read
from the chair. If any objection had been communicated
to him he would unquestionably have postponed the reso-
lution ou the income tax. (Hear.) He was not aware
that there were any other points which required explana-
tion at present; but he should be glad to furnish any fur--
ther iulormetian which the house might 'desire.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the loan was on the whole
a fair transaction, though he complained of the amount as
excessive, wising from the large margin of 5,000,0001.
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had allowed him-
self in the estimated expenditure for the year. He also ap-
proved of the proposed plan for the repayment of the loan
in annual instalments of 1,000,0001. There had recently
been extensive sales of savings' banks stock. He wished
to have au explanation of those trausactions which had ex-
cited a good deal of observation, and which were calculated
ot of
tphron luce much mischief. He objected to the Chancellor
o.
Exchequer burrowing money on terminable annui-
ties one day bn putting an additional income tax on the
annuitants the next.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
sales of savings bank stock had baen made untkr distinct
powers, created by an act of Parliament, which authorised
the Government to direct the Commissioners for the Re-
duction of the National Debt to sell stock belonging to
savings batik+, and to receive in exchange other Government
securities. The house were aware that exchequer bills and
ways and means bills, thoegh they were temporary and re-
newable, were just as binding upon the Government as
those securities which were of longer duration. When,
therefare, the National Debt Commissienei s sold savings
b Luk stock,, and took in exchange exchequer bills from the
Government, they did not diminish the strength of their
security. With regard to the income tax and the annui-
tants, he could only repeat the explanation which he gave
on Friday-night. The lenders of money on terminable an-
nuities necessarily took into their calcul atiotas possible flue-
tuft; ions iu the amount of the income tax; and as they would
benefit by any diminution in the impost, he thought it uas
but fair they should take their chance of an increase.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS inquired whether the 86,000,000/.
for which provision had been made included the cost of
collecting the revenue ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to reply in the affirmative.
Mr. GLADSTONE suggested that, instead of binding
the commissioners to lay out the 1,000,0001. annually in
consols, the resolution should leave them at liberty to select
whatever description of security they might consider expe-
dient at the time. There was another alteration which he
had to propose. The resolution bound the commissioners
to purchase 1,090,0001. of consols annually until the whole
16,0u0,000/. should have been redeemed. But a portion of
the consols might be redeemed from other sources ; and if
that were so, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not
be able to redeem the 16,000,000/ with his annual sum of
1,000,0001., but,
_perhaps not more than 5,000.000/. or
6,000,000/. If they were to have a clause of that kind at
all he thought it should be efficient for its purpose.

Mr. BAILING could not help thinking that the sugges-
tion of the right hon. gentleman would frustrate the ob-
ject of the clause. There were a great variety of debts,
and the right hon. gentleman proposed to say to the com-
missioners, "Here is a surplus of 1,000.000/. per annum,
nod you must apply it to buy off a portion of any of the
existing debts you please." But the object of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was that, over and above what
might be done with respect to the other debts, there
should be 1,000,000/. applied annually to the reduc-
tiOn of the neNly-created debt. (Hear, hear.) The
real object of the clause was that beyond any other call
upon the Exchequer, 1,000,000/. should be applied to the
redemption, by purchase, of consols, And he could not un-
derstand what other object the right hon. gentleman's pro-
posal could have than entirely to frustrate the whole reso-
lution.

Mr. GLADSTONE thought he was hardly open to the
charge of attempting to frustrate a clause the object of
which he ha►d risen to facilitate by his suggestions.
Mr. T. BARING had meant to speak, not of the right
hon. gentleman's object, but of the effect of his suggestions
if carried out.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would ask
the right hon. gentleman to allow him time to consider
his suggestions; but he did not see that there would be
any objection to give power to apply 1,0,!0 0001. to theo the
re-
demption of any perpetual stock. With regard to
other point, it was difficult for Lim to see the precise legal
effect of the clause, but if it were possible, consistent with
the resolution, to alter the words so as to make the mean-
ing clear, he would have no objection to do so.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that tho sum of 86,000,000/.
did not include the cost of collection of the revenue, yet it
was most important that that should be made clear. The
object of the former commission was to bring the whole ex-
Penditure of the country under the view of the house, and
there was no reason at all why the large amount which the
collection cost should be kept out of view this year, al-
though the late t hancellor of the Exchequer had given
verY sufficient reasons why it should Hot have appeared last
year. :Were thht amount brought under the view of the
n use it would be seen that the real expenditure would be
not 86.b00,000t. but 9.1,000,0001.
Mr. JAMES WILSON said that this year the accounts
had continued to be made up on the old principle. The cost
of collection woula be bonctikie before the how; but he