The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-27 00:00:00

ommunity had hitherto shown so little inclination for
libellous publications as this class. There was once a class of

newspapers which was accustomed to profane the Sunday
by hebdomadal ribaldry and slander. Who supported those
papers? He feared it was the clubs and drawing-rooms—
not the working classes. Those publications eventually
perished, because they could get no support from the gene-
ral
body of the people, and because the public would yield
no sympathy to those against whom actions for slander or
libel were brought. He would respectfully beg to make one
observation to the hon. gentleman, that it was a remark-
able fact, and one which showed how little danger was to
be apprehended from cheap publications, that all the revo-
lutionary, profligate, and licentious literatureinvariably
corrupted the higher class before it reached the lower. He
knew of no exception, ancient or modern to that rule. He
was persuaded if the works of Rosseau or Voltaire were
circulated through the metropolis freely, or in our large
towns, they would not have six months popularity after
the repeal of the stamp duty, for the moral corruption and
infidelity inculcated in those works would be thoroughly
exposed by sound and good writing. It appeared from the
committee of 1851 that after the reduction which took
place in 1830 two journals were established in the metro-
polis ; and that though they were not first rate, they extin-
guished a swarm of licentious publications. Let the house
do as country gentlemen did with their fields. If they
wanted the corn to grow, let them cut down the hedge
rows, and let in the air and light. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had already told them without exaggeration
that the stamp duty had broken down in all directions.
There were for 100 publications stamped, 250 unstamped,-
- eight only partly stamped, and all these were liable to
prosecution. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to do
justice on one portion without prosecuting all. Very
well ; the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House
of Commons if they did not pass this bill they must
arm the executive with new powers to prosecute
these offenders. He said the House of Commons would do
no such thing. (Hear.) It was impossible for Govern-
ment to ask for new powers in 1855 to arrest the march of
information—if Government were rash enough to do this,
it would do more to expedite the march of democracy than
the incomplete Reform Bill of the noble lord the member
for the City of London—and the proposal would also have
the cold shadow of aristocracy in opposition to it (we un-:
derstood). If it was foolish to pass sitch a law ; he should
be glad to see how the Attorney-General would act if he
had new powers. He should like to see Government at-
tempt to prosecute under such a law. He would tell Go-
vernment that the law was virtually dead they might
retain the sword in their nerveless hand, but he would
defy them to animate its muscles to strike the blow.
(Hear, hear.) He would now come to his hon. friend's
amendment, which his hen. friend had based on the ground
of revenue. The right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer told the house that if the duty was abo-
lished it might be necessary to call for additional taxes in
order to prosecute the war. But what was it we were
waging war against ? Not against Russia, as she was our
natural ally ; but against barbarism and usurpation. But
if we were willing to incur a large expenditure for that
purpose, would it not be better to incur the small expen-
diture of 250,000/. in the promotion of civilisation and
freedom? He would ask honourable gentlemen who re-
fused to concur in Russian usurpation, whether they
would consent to that usurpation which deprived our
follow-subjects of the liberty of publishing their opinions
on the affairs of the day ? Could there be a more hate-
ful thing than for an Attorney-General to say to a
young journalist, " Your publication contains informa-
tion of value, but as you are not rich enough to pay for
publishing your opinions, the law must be called in to
ruin you ?" (Hear.) He denied that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would lose a single farthing by the mea-
sure if it were carried, or if he adopted the principle of the
former bill, to admit all printed publications at a propor-
tional charge. Twenty years ago that was a portion of his
scheme ; for he then convinced himself that printed matter
of any kind, whether commercial, scientific, or religious,
should have the same liberty of publication. And would
that right 'non, gentleman restrain tho diffusion and pub-
lication of such works merely for the sake of saving
250,0001. a year ? He considered that the objects aimed
at were beyond all price. (Hear.) He should not have
had the pain to differ from his hon. friend's if some inte-
rested party had not sought to alarm them by acts and as-
sertions so extravagant, and so opposed to the sense of- all
acquainted with th practical condition of our literature,
that he was sure that those who made the assertions would
themselves be the first to 1 tugh at them. The hon. baro-
net had referred to a circular which had been sent abroad
against the Stamp Bill. This bugbear, as it was termed
by the hon. baronet, stated that the most active agents for
obtaining the remission of the stamp duty were persons
whose object was the diffusion of principles adverse to re-
ligion and the rights of property. Now, he did not know
who was alluded to—who were the chief supporters of the
repeal. The hon. member for the West Riding held ex-
treme opinions, but he manfully avowed them, and it had
never been imputed to him that he held opinions adverse
to religion. Then there was Lord Brougham, Lord Camp-
bell, and Lord Lyndhurst—three judges of the land ; and
then there was that natural foe to the rights of property,
the heir of the house of Derby. (Laughter.) Next, there
were those notorious enemies to religion, the two represen-
tativesof the University of Oxford. And amongst the most
active agents for the change were her Majesty's Ministers,
who latterly, at least, appeared to be well satisfied
with what he would call the established order of things.
(Laughter.) He found that all the charges against the
supporters of the repeal of the duty were comprised in two
lines of the circular. One was a libel against the character
of those who wished to make newspapers cheap, and the
other a libel on those who would read them. Horace
' Walpole once said of a lady that she had as fine a set of
teeth as a lady could have who had only two, and both of
them black. (Laughter.) He hoped his hon. friends
around him would not be induced to oppose a measure
that would tend to diffuse Conservative opinions among
the working classes. That appeared to be the only chance
of getting Conservative opinions fairly before the working
people—fairly before those tens of thousands of voters
among whom it was the duty of Conservative members to
appeal for their seats in Parliament. He had yet to learn
that there was a single'Conservative journal that had pene-
trated to the working classes. The right hon. gentleman
the member for Droitwitch, in his luminous speech rela-
tive to the education of the people, referred to the letters
from private soldiers in the Crimea which had excited so

much admiration. How were the minds of those soldiers

trained ?—was it not in a great measure by cheap publica-
tions which they read when children ? This shovel how
little fear need be entertained at the diffusion of cheap
knowledge. Do not let the house suppose that a penny
tax was a slight imposition. Once there existed a daily
paper called the Spectator—Addison and Steele were the
contributors; that penny paper did more to reform the
manners of the people than half the books that were written.
Suddenly a penny tax was laid on the paper, and so one
morning that pleasing instructor which brought philoso-
phy to our firesides vanished from our homes ; the penny
tax extinguished it, and that alliance which genius esta-
blished between mirth and wisdom was rudely repealed.
He was convinced—and he said it from his heart—if a
Conservative journal was established, embracing moderate
opinions, and edited by some man who knew the tastes
and feelings of the working classes (there were many
squires and clergymen who did), and being thoroughly in
earnest, it would do more to popularise Conservative opi-
nions than half the speeches that where made in that house.
What was Conservatism ? It was not that which three-
fourths of the Conservative journals represented. It was
not a system of restraint or terror ; it was a warm, gene-
rous love of law and the glorious constitution of the land
we live in. And what was the constitution ? It was not
a fragile form that shrank from every breath of air, or that
could not stand the rude shock of the tempest. No, it was
of robust organisation, of sound principles, which received
life and soul, net more from the wisdom of statesmen than
from the courage of patriots. And if it was such, were
they not bound, as true Conservatives, to show that they
adhered to the constitution ; that it needed no additional
reform bill; that it wanted only change in order to give
the people new avenues to knowledge and to make them
wise and better. He believed it was their duty as true
Conservatives to show that they did not fear the common
sense of the country—that they did not fear any class iu
the country in fair discussion, because they were convi need
that in proportion as they widened the field of intelligence
and literature by raising up new and cheap publications
which a worthless law forbade them, they should be doing
their cause and their country a service. He should give
his cordial support to the principle of the measure.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose to explain the present
state of the law, as it had been alreadyseveral times alluded
to. For many years past a certain class of journals devoted
to one single object, such as the Atheneum, the Lite-
retry Gazette, the Builder, the Musical Times, the Jurist,
and certain other papers devoted to purely legal sub-
jects, bad enjoyed an immunity, by the indulgence of those
who administered the revenue, from the tax on newspapers
tax which was originally imposed, not on fiscal, but on
political considerations. The thread thus given to the
papers of the class described called into existence, in the
course of time, another class of papers, not devoted to the.
higher and more intellectual subjec's, but which the In-
land Revenue tolerated, inasmuch as they did not convey
all that was usually expected in a newspaper, and did not
interfere with politics. Such were the Racing limes and
the Police Gazette. Bat then, after a while, some of those
papers began to publish what was really news, and it be-
came a question whether one paragraph of this nature
made the paper liable in penalties, or if half a column was
necessary to bring it into the category of newspapers pro-
perly so called. If, on the one hand, the officers of inland
revenue did not interfere with those publications to compel
them to be stamped, thero was an outcry raised by the
stamped papers ; and if they did interfere with any one
paper, it immediately raised an outcry against the injustice
'not perplexing
it out for persecution. Then, as if all this was
perplexing and. tiresome enough, the House of Com-
va,ans., at the instance of the right hon. member for Man-
eneolor, deliberately and formally came to the resolution
thetinttiggjarght to he altered, and that the principle of
not to contlnstlenctiv between one paper and another aught
that the law, as
it hte hon. baronet was wrong in stating
present stood, was a dead letter, for
the law, if enforced, powerful enough ; but what would
be the amount of d:rcoan3 tent and outcry, if the law officer
of the Crown should be ea° upon to enforce the law im-
partiallY against all the publications
towhich had been in-
duced by successive Governments
lovne.rinvest o
we
tee? ittsoa
journals of a description wthip
exempt from duty ? So far h
red, and in one sense tho law. WAS a dead lettewr,a fecr°i-f
he wore to institute those . prosecutions, Le should have
' therefore,
and vainly, In such teats
to appeal to juries, ,ses as those to
which he had referred. It became necessary,and. nee upon
the
for the house to decide speedily
whole question:No person could
. admire more than he did
the tone and temper with which the hon. member for Kent
but he had nothe a
had brought forward his proposition,
a single argument made use of in the course
which appeared to him sufficient to ju eacfouhrisse speech
5.1'
which
he preposed to the house to take. Assuming
that the alteration of the law woul v eflavre aaracnemzteaaint
d in
amount of loss to the revenue, still they knew the extent
of that loss, and if the house were net prepared to submit
to that sacrifice they ought at once to put an
en
for d to the
measure, and not to postpone a decision upon it an _
in-
definite period. Two Chancellors of the Exchequer had
come forward, and had stated that they considered the
finances of the country, notwithstanding the heavy de-
mands of the war, to be in a condition to bear the losA.
Why, therefore' postpone the consideration and decision
of the question? There were same parsons who objected to
the principle of the measure because they considered that
the retention of the tax was requisite in order to keep up
the character and position of the press. In that opinion
he did not concur, hut, on thacontrary, he believed they
would do a great service to the press by getting rid of the
tax, and it certainly behoved those who were in favour of
the continuance of the stamp to show that its repeal would
be injurious, and no argument which he had yet heard had
succeeded in convincing him that such would be the effect.
If he believed the effect of ,the proposed alteration would
be to lower the character of the public press, he should
start at once from such a proposition. He did not believe
that, with the continuance of the facilities of the Post-

office, any of the leading journals of the day would lose a
single reader by the alteration. The effect of the removal
of ,he stamp duty would in his opinion be to call into
existence a class of papers adapted to another class of read-
era, and suited to their means and capacities. But even if
this were not so, what right had the house, either in justice
or reason, to keep up by artificial regulations the high price
of a commodity in which the rich rejoiced, and prevent the
poor man from getting an article adapted to his wants,
merely in order to benefit and keep up the character of the
high-priced paper? (Hear.) Then, too, it had been said
tint the abolition of the stamp duties would call into ex-
istence a class of cheap immoral and seditious papers. But
if such journals should militate in any way against law
and order, the law was amply strong enough to control and
put them down; and if it were thought that the proposal
to take away the registration of the names of the proprie-
tors would tend to increase an objectionable class of publi-
cations, it should be borne in mind that such proposition
was only a subordinate part, and not in any way connected
with the principle, of the bill. No person could deny that
a great improvement had taken place in the character of
the press during the last few years, but this beneficial
change had occurred since the lowering of the stamp duty
of 4d. to id. Why, then, if such good results had attended
this reduction, should such gloomy anticipations be in-
dulged in with respect to the effect of the further reduc-
tion ? (Hear.) The altered state of the feeling of the
public was such that whenever a libel occurred there was
no difficulty in getting a jury to convict. The Satirist was
annihilated by the repeated damages obtained by indivi-
duals whose characters had been traduced ; and if such a
paper were again to be attempted to be forced into circula-
tion, it would be swept away by the indignant voice of the
country and the verdicts of honest juries. (Hear.) This
great question, then, was perfectly ripe for solution, and
he trusted that the house would not, by adopting the
amendment of the hon. member for Kent, further postpone
its final settlement. Allusion had been made by the hon.
member to the necessity of an alteration in the law
of copyright ; but that law was at present strong
enough for its purpose, and ho did not think that exist-
ing newspapers would be exposed to more piracy after the
removal of the stamp duty than they were at the present
moment. The daily papers were exposed to the piracy of
the evening and of the weekly papers, and information
which they gave was published the same day and in the week
after, condensed, abridged, or transformed in so many dif-
ferentcause of complaint. It had
hh
tt oh
the tax
ayn
were taken off i c would be ee stshataepdasthaast notif
pos-
sible for some paper to be started the object of which
would bo to sto, I the matter of the mornina papers, and
bring out later in the day the informatieh which Other.
had collected at great expense. He believed that if such
a speculation were likely to answer, the difference of one
penny in the price of the paper would not stop those who
were disposed to act in so shameful a manner. But, if
such an outrageous attempt at fraud and robbery were to
be mad© by any person, upon an action being brought, the
indignation of a jury at such an outrage would induce
them to give such damages as would at once put a stop to
any such proceeding. (Hear, hear.) There were news-
papers now springing up by scores, many of them devoted
to subjects connected with the war, but the reason the
law had not been put in force against them was because
the Government had really decided upon the abolition of
the tax, and it would have appeared an act of harshness
and injustice to have proceeded against them for infringing
a law which the Government had decided upon repealing.
-At the same time, however, it should not be overlooked
that to allow those parties to infringe the law was evi-
dently unjust to those who were called upon to pay the
tax. In conclusion, the hon. and learned gentleman re-
spectfully implored the house to consent to the second
reading of the bill.

Sir F. BARING said that ho always listened with the
greatest pleasure and attention to the hon. baronet the
member for Hertfordshire and the hon. and learned-At-
torney-General, and he had certainly never more admired
their talent, and the way in which they dealt with a ques-
tion, than upon the present occasion, for neither of those
hon. members had in the least met the objections taken by
the hon. member for Kent. (Hear.) What was the object
~f that hon. member ? Ho had stated that, by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchquer's own explanations, he was about to
propose an alteration by which a loss to the revenue would
accrue of something over 200,0001., and that it would be
his duty to propose some other tax to make up this defi-
ciency in the revenue. The hon. member, therefore, not
very unreasonably called upon the house not to go into the
consideration of this question until the alternative of the
other taxes was before the house, and the public had an
op; ortunity of deciding whether they would undergo the
evils which at present existed or consent to those which
might be proposed to the house. It had been said that the
public were exceedingly anxious to have this bill passed,
but this extra.oedina.ry haste to press the measure through
the house appeared to him to throw something like dis-
credit upon the statement. He disapproved entirely of
the principle of discussing propositions of this sort before
the house had before it a full and comprehensive view of
the finances of the country, and regretted the departure
from that sound principle of finance and policy which the
present case presented. He had known but one exception
to that correct course, and that was the establishment of
the penny postage system, a measure which no doubt was
attended with many beneficial results, but its adoption
led to great confusion in the public accounts, and the im-
position of the income tax was in a great degree the result
of that legislation. At the present moment the state of
the finances was more uncomfortable than usual, and if
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to follow out
the principle laid down of raising the service of the year
by the taxes of the year, he would find that even 200,0001.
was not a sum which he could rashly dispose of. But if
they had recourse to a loan—and he expressed no opinion
on the policy of such a course—it might be just to leave a
portion of the burden of the war to posterity, but it
would not be either an honest or straightforward course to
ask posterity to pay for the reduction of taxation proposed
in the present measure. With respect to the proposal
before the house, the fact was that this penny stamp duty
could hardly be Galled a ta:s.. ;iv w...,-.----,---,,, .c....-
privileges enjoyed under the Post-office, which were paid
for in the shape of a stamp. The fact was, that about
133 per cent. of the whole of the carriage of the mails of
the country was in newspapers. The country paid for the
cerrriage of the inland mails—to say nothing of the cost
of the establishment and charges of delivery-603,0201. ;
and for the packet service, 732,0001.; or, in round numbers,
about 1,500,0001. The 400,0001. levied by the stamp
duty, with the additional postage for the colonies.
would not exceed 500,0001., so that the country carried 80
per cent. of the whole of the mails in newspapers at a cost
of not more than one-third of the actual carriage. If the
whole cost of the establishment and carriage of the Post-
office were included, the amount would be 2,430,0001.; the
sone received for the carriage of letters and newspapers was
1,208,0001., but the newspapers, which amounted to 80 per
Lout. of all that passed through the post-office, did not pay
more than half a million. He thought, therefore, thatthe
newspapers received more than a full equivalent for the
stamp duty which they paid. (Hear.) Ho thought the
hon. and loareed Attorney-General might have reduced the
definition of what was a newspaper to that which common
sense was very much inclined to think was a newspaper,
and thus have avoided the alternative of either prosecuting
a large number of periodicals or proposing the total repeal
of the stamp duty. (Hear.) The hon. and learned At-
torney-General had argued the question as if it were a set-
tlement of the whole matter. But was the bill before the
house a settlement of the question ? The hon. and learned
gentleman Was unable to say what a newspaper was, or to
give a definition of one ; yot in some of the clauses of the
hill newspapers were specially referred to, and it would be
impossible to put a construction on those clauses without
having a definition of a newspaper. The two gentlemen
who had supported the bill so eloquently had stated that
it would not be satisfactory without some settlement of the
question of copyright. Then, as to the moral effect of the
proposed change ; while on one hand they heard much
about the advantage of Americanising the press of this
country, they heard the Americans themselves state that
their press was to them no great blessing. Whether there
was revenue to dispose of or not, he (Sir F. Baring) stood
up for the principle that the house should not take off a
tax without having the substitute which was to be proposed
first brought under consideration.

Mr. PAOKE supported the proposition for postponing
the second reading of the bill.
Mr. MIALL, after stating what he considered to be the
arguments employed by the antagonists of the bill, whom
$ a
he charged with gross selfishness, observed that large
in-ajority of the house had decided that it was a matter of
high policy to diffuse education at the public cost; yet it
was now asked, after thus stimulating the mental curiosity
of the people, to refuse the easiest and best means of gra-
tifying it, by rejecting this bill. He denied that there
was any danger of cheapened newspapers deteriorating the
press, or of interfering with those of a higher class. Un-
restricted competition in this, as in other cases, wculd not
only increase production but improve quality.
Mr. DRUMMOND, in a speech more than usually dis-
cursive, declared his opinion to be that, instead of being
the greatest glory of the country, the press, in its present
state, was one of its greatest curses. It was a mercantile
speculation, and nothing else, for pampering the taste of
the English people for political gossip.
Mr. DUFFY supported the bill, replying to various ob-
jections offered to a change of the law.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not
accuse my hon. friend of any intention to make a factious
motion,or of being influenced by motives of party opposi-
tion in submitting his amendment to the house, nor should
I have had any difficulty in acceding to it if I could have
brought myself to look upon this question as exclusively,
or even principally, a financial question. (Hear.) When
I introduced the measure I was under the impression that
I was giving effect to the declared and recorded opinion of
the house in the session of 1854. Let m 3 call the attention
of the house to the words of that resolution :—" It is the
opinion of this house that the laws in reference to the
periodical press and newspaper stamp are ill defined, and
unequally enforced ; and it appears to this house that the
subject demands the early consideration of Parliament."
Now, it is important to observe the time when this reso-
lution was agreed to. My right hon. friend the member
for the University of Oxford made his second financial
statement, proposing an addition of 10,000,0001. of taxa-
tion for the expenditure of the war on the Bth of May last,
and on the 16th of May my right hon. friend the member
fur Manchester moved and carried this resolution. The
house, therefore, passed the resolution with a full know-
ledge that a great war expenditure was to be met by in-
creased taxation, and passed it within a few days after
the statement to that effect had been made, with the im-
pression of the fact fresh upon their minds. (Hear.) If,
therefore, the financial objection had pressed upon the
Is )use last session as strongly as it now seems to weigh
'cith hon. members opposite, it is olear that the resolu-
tion could not then have been carried. But an attempt
has boon made upon the opposite side to throw doubt on
(.Itheue
snitieoannsi n
ofg of
financethe resolution.
to
objections, Abstractre resolutions i or
s upon
regret
that my right hon. faced did not move some specific plan
lt, a Committee of Ways and Means instead of leaving us
to dispute as to the precise meaning he intended to convey ;
but it appears tooptvhat no reasonable doubt can exist as
oath which is construsa.
to the meaning
a motion must be uonstrueecel"T"'
meaning of theresolution. As in the case of an
cpzinvion, deponenclis, so
person
whoumcoaleing.to the intent and
friend was chairman of the committees it.
' My
news was not a proper object fo t
clog his motion he
bfeulalyvattalot.eadb•th. right hon.
which reported that'
r axation, and in introd -
a virtual thatis viwe wh
se
nra.tsots
repeal it,
motionoit, uof
which were inimical to the newspaper stamp. After hoar-
his opinions and his argument
yhaoruesl
"
ea
relaxation ofto thhies-
ed it was unduebrst,,tohoadttiotilmvapsl
inotion. Can there
law? Can any one doubt
as a resolution emit
was corn'
condemna-
tion and repeal,
as
far
9 :lifear, hear.) The
the newspaper stamp .
the law *() resolution, by
very terms, implies thatwas to be al-
tietsred. Can any
that the law should be reno
one in this house have the hardihood t
maintain that it could mean
more 'stringent or
altered, and it was not to be rendered.
have but that it
dered more stringent and severe ? If, then, the law was to I);
could it be relaxed in any
should he relaxed ?'and how
ory
not comp=
severe, what meaning could the resolution.
other manner than by rendering the stamp

but optional ? For the reasons I have stated I believed
that in introducing this measure I was giving effect to the
distinct and deciered e:-,ieee. 0: :he hoe ss , see
If it should please the house to iecedo from their
determination—if they should now change their opinion
and depart from that resolution—let them, by distinctly
rejecting the bill, not by acceding to the dilatory motion
proposed by the hon. gentleman, but by voting for a motion
that it be read a second time in six months, simply rescind
the resolution, and so place the Government iu a clear and
intelligible position with respect to the administration of
the law. If you reject the second reading of the bill, in
what position will the Government stand with respect to
those publications, the nature of which has been so fully
and ably explained by the Attorney-General? Do you
propose to legalise class publications? Would anybody
undertake to define the precise difference between class
newspapers and other newspapers? It. has been found
difficult enough to define a newspaper in its extended
sense, and would any one lay down such a definition as
would satisfy judges and jurymen? Would any one with
metaphysical minuteness draw a line for practical purposes
between class and other newspaper? If that task is to be
imposed upon the Government, I trust that some gentle-
man who has supported the amendment will give us the
benefit of his valuable advice on the subject. Is the At-
torney-General to prosecute some 150 newspapers which
have hitherto received the indulgence of the Government,
which have grown up under a permission not sanctioned
by the letter of the law, but which has induced proprie-
tors to embark their capital in extensive literary and com-
mercial enterprises ? They have formed large connexions
with classes of customers and of readers through the long-
continued toleration of the Government, known to the
public, known to this house, and not censured or objected
to by the house ' • and are they suddenly to find them-
selves the objects, or, as it might be said with truth,
the victims, of ex officio prosecutions, and to be at once de-
prived of the privilege they have so long enjoyed ? If that
is the course to whic the Government is to be driven, I
trust it may be distinctly signified by those who support
the amendment of my hon. friend and wish for the rejec-
tion of the second reading. I will not attempt to travel
over the general topics which have been so ably illustrated
and almost exhausted in the eloquent, and not more elo-
quent than argumentative, speech of the hon. baronet the
member for lertfordshire. It would be arrogance in me
to enter into the various topics to which he referred, and I
will only advert to one of the points he so ably and copi-
ously illustrated—l mean that of the great alarm which
appears to have seized both the metropolitan and the pro-
vincial press from the proposed abolition of the stamp
duty. The metropolitan press appears to think that when
the penny stamp is removed it will be ruined by the pro-
vincial press ; the provincial press, on the other hand, be-
lieves that it will be ruined by the London press—(hear)
and both the London and provincial press believe they will
be ruined by some possible press which has not yet been
called into existence. (Hear.) Now, I oonfess that I can-
not but regard all such fears as fears inspired by imagina-
tion rather than by reason and by examination into futu-
rity founded upon facts and experience. Let us only con-
sider what has been the effect of reducing the stamp duty
from 4d. to ld. Surely that reduction must have affected
the interests of the great newspapers more than the re-
moval of the last penny can effect them ; and yet we know
by experience that the newspapers with a large circulation,
both in the metropolis and in the provinces, rather de-
rived benefit than suffered injury from the reduction of
the stamp duty from 4d. to ld. They are in possession of
the market, they have the command of capital, they have
an established connexion, they are known to the public
as the chief channels for advertisements, and they must
unquestionably enter the new field of competition
which will be opened to them with greater advantages
than any new competitors can possess. It will be ex-
pected that I should say something with respect to the
financial aspect of this question, which has received so
much attention during the debate. lam not about to
deny that the estimated loss of 200,0001. a-year is a mate-
rial circumstance for the consideration of this house.
Nevertheless, in the construction of the financial plan
which, it will be my duty to submit to the house immedi-
ately after the Easter recess, allowance will be made for
the loss of the revenue that will be thus occasioned, and
her Majesty's Government will, upon their responsibility,
propose such a scheme of finance as will provide amply for
the expenditure of the year, including the loss which may
be occasioned under the head of newspaper stamp duties.
Whatever risk may exist of such a sacrifice of revenue, the
Government, with the full knowledge that that reduction
is to be provided for, upon their responsibility propose
this measure to the house. The sum of 200,0001. which I
have mentioned, is the estimate made by the Post-office
authorities, not certainly upon very certain data, but upon
time best which the subject admits of obtaining. That esti-
mate does not include any allowance'for an increase in the
paper duty. The paper duty now produces about
1,000,0031. a year, and certainly, if the anticipations of
which we hear, that the country will be inundated with
new newspapers, should receive a verification to any per-
ceptible degree, we may calculate upon some considerable
increase of the paper duty. I don't myself venture to give
any estimate of the increase of the paper duty. I merely
state that the estimate; of the loss of 200,0001., which I
laid before the house, does not include any allowance for
the increase of the paper duty. There is another point
which has been adverted to by more than one hon. mem-
ber as affording the means, in some respect, of supplying
the loss occasioned by the abolition of the compulsory
stamp— I mean a cheap book post—(hear, hear)—a charge
of postage for printed publications, not being periodi-
cal publications, not coming within the terms of the
bill now upon the table, but which would at present
be subjected to the letter rates of postage. Having
conferred with the Postmaster-General, I can state
that, in case this bill should receive the sanction
of Parliament, her Majesty's Government will be pre-
pared to introduce a book postage at lower rates than the
scale now existing. The lowest rate of the present book
postage is 6d. for one pound weight. That rate of postage,
was established by a Treasury warrant. It is proposadlo -
amend that Treasury warrant so that it may include slower
scale of rates ,• facilities will thus be given for the transport
VL IJILIVII.D anti-
cipated that this change may lead to some considerable
augmentation of the Post-office revenue. This is an ar-
fangement which may be carried into effect by the war-
rant of the Lords of the Treasury, for, as it involves a mere
variation of the existing rates of book postage, it does not
require the sanction of an act of Parliament. Having thus
explained the financial portion of the question, I shall leave
this bill in the hands of the house, only pressing upon them
this consideration, that it is most important, not upon
financial grounds, but with reference to the recorded reso-
lution of this house—(hear)—for the- purpose of maintain-
ing the consistency of the house and of its proceedings, and
also for the purpose of putting an end to a most anomalous
and unconstitutional state of the law and to perpetual
scandals which consequently arise, that the house should
pronounce a clear opinion upon this bill ; that they should
either road it a second time this evening or reject it ; and
that they should not accede to the unmeaning, the useless,
and the dilatory motion of my hon. friend. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—The right hon. gentleman has founded
the course he recommends the house to pursue upon a prin-
ciple which in practice he would find it very difficult to
maintain. I understand from him that he founds it not
so much upon those great principles of policy which have
been so eloquently advocated by the hon. member for Hert-
fordshire, and with great ability by ether members of this
house, as upon the principle that the recorded opinion of
the house upon this subject is, in the mind of the right hon.
gentleman, a fact of such gravity and importance, that it is
impossible for him, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, to resist
an intimation so precise and definite. Now, sir, how can this'
principle he maintained in practice? Has it always been—l
may almost say has it ever been —the principle adopted by
Chancellors of the Exchequer, that they should, as a mat-
ter of course, assume a vote of this house, with respect to
a particular tax, as an indication which cannotbemistaken,
and a sanction of a course which cannot be relinquished
by the Government; and that the policy or expediency of
repealing the tax, and the proper time for taking such a
step —which is the question before us to-night—are to be
omitted from all future discussion ? (Hear.) Why, in
1553, two sessions ago, the subject of what are called taxes
on knowledge was brought before this house, and a resolu-
tion, I think, for the abolition of the advertisement duty
win carried by a large majority, but the Government did
not on that occasion express their opinion that that vote
was final on the question, nor did the Government act upon
that vote. (Hoar.) Have we not had the malt-tax repealed
by a vote of the House of Commons before this, and were
we then toll by the Minister that, as a matter of course, it
was the duty of the Government immediately to propose
the repeal of that tax in consequence of the vote which this
house had adopted? (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, were
wo not reminded the other night by the right hon. member
for the University that a former colleaeue of his 'the late
Sir It. Peal, had to his honour resisted the vote of the
House of Commons upon that subject, and that ho had sue-
cessfully called upon the house to rescind it? (Hear, hear.)
Why, I remember a vets of this house for rescinding the
sonar duties being carried against a poWerful Government,
but were the sugar duties abolished by the Minister of the
day in consequence of that vote? No; on that occasion he
called upon the house to rescind the resolution at which
it had arrived. But what happened in our very recent
experience with respect to the vote of this house on the
subject of attorneys' certificates? (" Hear," and laughter.)
A vote for abolishing the duty was adopted by a very
large majority—a greater majority than has over voted
for the repeal of the taxes immediately under
discussion to-night; but did the Chancellor of the
Exchequer then c one forward and say that,in consequence
of the vote of the House of Commons, he felt it incumbent
upon the Government to propose the repeal of the certifi-
cate duty? Why, that duty is not repealed at this moment.
(Hear, and laughter.) You have had financial reform, you
have had the revision of taxation, you have had the whole
question of taxation considered in every possible light, and
yet you have not got the duty on attorneys' certificates re-
pealed—(a laugh)—although you had repeated votes on the
subject. But now, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in
vindication of himself, not for proposing the repeal of these
taxes on introducing his financial statement to the house,
but in vindication of his proposing the repeal of a tax
before the house is favoured with his financial scheme or
knows what substitute he is going to recommend—lays it
down as a proposition which cannot be controverted, and
as a principle of action which tho Government adopts, that
the moment the house has consented by its vote to the re-
peal of a tax, it is the duty of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to act in conformity with that vote. I certainly
cannot aereee with the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon
that point, for I remember very well the arguments that
were used by the right hon. member for the university with
respect to the repeal of the Attorneys' Certificate Duty.
That right hon. gentleman (Mr-Gladstone) then said, that
it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer not
only to hear arguments in favour of the particular propoi-
tion then before the house, but also to hear arguments in
favour of the repeal of any other taxes which the house
might think ought to be abolished, in order that he might
avail himself of the information he could obtain from such
discussions in framing his financial scheme. The right bon.
gentleman argued against being called on to give any opi-
nion on the part of the Government before the introduc-
tien of their financial scheme; and the right hon. gentle-
man then said :

" If it be acknowledged that it is the privilege of the
House of Commons to propose the repeal of one tax after
another by a majority, and so dictate to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer what shall be the financial policy of which
be is to be the organ in this house, what, I want to know,
is the use of the Chancellor of the Exchequer."
(Hear, hear.) I say, then, if the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's position to-night is founded on that principle I shall
have to say to him, " What is the use of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer ?" (Laughter.) I shall see it my duty, sir,
to support the hon. member for East Kent in the proposi-
tion which ho has made. It is not a proposition that en-
ters into the general merits of the question. When we are
favoured with the financial statement of the Chancellor of
the
.xchequer, if ho feel himself justified in offering a pro-
ion to the house with respect to newspaper stamps, I
I shall listen to that proposition without any prejudice what-
ever; but I think there is no proposition that can be made
at this moment that is more rational, or that recommends

itself to the house by arguments of more unanswerable rea-
son, than that at this moment, when we are, aceordir

very verge and threshold of the budget, we should not be
called on to repeal a tax when the right hon. gentleman
wbeil
Inleadu
tod ct len ie, t tell
revenue
, u
for s what
the
is the
am weare compensationgoing
tore-
1, ailm,
pa
nnsde
.w(haa te
airs.
)t hTe
The
eu br
iegt ttu tee
nw.hgi cehn t
lwe
aaar ehtaos n adsek eat,l
stated to the house that the Government have a scheme
lossw h i ethh
ettheevy h e
nua perfect
wilt sustain
ia confidenceconsequence
s willen
u e
nne make u
etupef (r
I).e
ptehael
of the newspaper etemp duty. I have no doubt the Govern-
ment have full confidence in that project. I have no doubt
the Government have confidence in the right hon. gentle-
man—but the question is, has the House of Commons con-
fidence in the project of the Government? (Hear.) It may
bo doubtful whether eve shall have confidence in that pro-
ject when we aro asked to give it; but to ask us to have con-
fidence in what the right hon. gentleman does not con-
descend to communicate to us is to exact too much from
the trust of this house, and to take a somewhat more san-
guine view of the existence of the Government than the
right hon. gentleman is warranted in doing. (A laugh.)
The right hon. gentleman tells ns that, if we postpone this
twasillk of defining ly
deinfivnotngedwhiant
difficul-
ties, is nobs.
Now, hetlaiogir setih'wreinitGhkostvfm
herelo'nrimgtehhntet hon. gentleman the member
if
no
gr
a q uePortsmouth,atteu
that
tt
appearsthere
sonot
g r
ema
tu much dt ihffie
So faras I could perceive from a somewhat hasty examina-
tion of the 155 journals to which the right hon. gentleman
eu
Government.lty n sv
refers, there is but an insignificant fraction of them that
will require his attention. (Hear.) I was amused the
other day on meeting with a caballistic definition of news,
in a book of childish instruction, that might have afforded
some hints even to a Minister ciFinance. (Hear.) The
word " news" was there described by the initial letters of
the four points of the compass. It isthe initialletters of the
four points of the compass that make the word " news,"
and he must understand that news is that which comes from
the North, South, East, and West, and if it comes from
only one point of the compass, then it is a class publica-
tion, and not news. (Laughter.) If he takes that simple
instruction as his guide, I think he will not find his diffi-
culties in the definition of noses so insurmountable as ho
takes them to be. (Laughter.) Sir, Ido not now enter on
the merits of the general question. I address myself only
to the amendment of my hon. friend—an amendment, in
my estimation, so sound, so just, and so suited to the cir-
cumstances with which we have to deal, that I feel it my
duty to give it my best support. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—The right hon. gentleman who
has just sat down has stated with great accuracy that cases
have occurred—and he stated several—in which this house
having come to certain resolutions in regard to taxation and
finance, the Government of the:day have not deemed it its
duty, or necessary, to adopt the resolutions to which the
house may have come; but I think the right hon. gentleman
has omitted to consider the peculiar character of the resolu-
tion to which my right hon. friend addressed his remarks.
Anybody may easily understand that, if .a resolution to
abolish a tax is proposed to this house, and the Govern-
ment of the day resist it, but that the resolution is carried
in spite of that resistance, the Government, holding by
their own opinion of the tax, may abstain from taking any
steps in consequence of tie resolution so carried in spite of
their opposition. (flear.) But the resolution to which my
right hon. friend alluded was a resolution carried without
a dissentient voice—(hear) —a resolution in which the Go-
vermnent of the day concurred, and to which the Govern-
ment are as much bound as the persons by whom it was
proposed to the house ; and it will be seen at once that
there is an essential difference between a resolution
so carried and one that is resisted and carried in spite
of the opinions and strong determination of the Go-
vernment. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the financial
part of the question, if my right hon. friend were pick-
ing out a tax which be thought in itself objectionable,
and simply because he thought some other taxes would be
preferable, it would be very reasonable for those who ob-
jected to that course to say, " Let us wait till we see
whether' the tax you are about to propose will be less ob-
jectionable than the one you propose to abolish." If it
were a question of mere preference in regard to financial
op.rations, I could understand the ground on which gentle-
men opposed to the tax might wish to see whether another
arrangement better suited to the wants and wishes of the
country might not bo proposed ; but the measure of my
right hon. friend is not founded on financial preference. It
is grounded, not merely on the resolution of last year, but
on the foundation on which that resolution rested. It is
grounded on the injurious, and, indeed, intolerable state
of the law—a stale in which it is impossible the law can
be enforced as it stands, and which we feel requires to be
altered. The law must be altered, because it is a scandal
that a law should exist that cannot from its nature be
enforced. (Hear, bear.) If the law be altered, you must
either make it more stringent, more precise, and enable
the officers of the Crown to carry out its provisions and
enforce its penalties in any case where it is violated—a
course which I think this house will not be prepared to
adopt ; or, if you will not do that, you must adopt the
line of relaxation, and make the law more indulgent.
For my part, I do not contemplate the proposed change as
likely to be attended with those dangers that have been
anticipated by some gentlemen in the course of the even-
ing. Ido not anticipate that this change will be produc-
tive of that injury to existing newspapers which they
themselves have se industriously endeavoured to persuade
us is awaiting them. I am persuaded that those newspapers
—commercial speculations, such as described by the hon.
member for West Surrey in that amusing speech with
which he has entertained the house this evening—that
those great establishments will maintain their ground in
spite of any competition that my right honourable
friend's measure may bring against them. (Hear, hear.)
I am equally convinced that there is no real danger to the
morals of the country from those cheap publications that
are likely to rise Asp when this stamp duty is removed.
(Heels.) 1 agree with those who have such confidence in
the good sense and good feeling of the lower classes—for
ttitieaste cnhoeadnapnguebrliclavtiilolnfsowlioilwl bteo
addressed —";s—tO"
them from this change ; that those publications hone which
danger is to be anticipated will not have such a circula-
tion, or such an enlargement, as that their existence can
be pei petuated. (Hear.) Of course they may be attempted ;
but they will share the fate of others that have gone before
them. (Hear.) I; they rise, they will soon fall again.
(Hear.) On the other hand, I believe there will arise
cheap publications for the use of those who are unable to
buy dear ones, which will convey instruction, enlarge their
understandings, improve their morals, and at the same
time tend to make tkem good and useful members of
society. (Hear.) I, therefore, entertain no apprehension
on that score. This being my opinion, lam convinced
that the house will best perform its duty to the public by
concurring in the bill proposed by my right hon. friend.
(Hear, hear.) Of this I son sure, that we ought to deter-
mine one way or the other, and that the motion—the
insidious motion of the hon. member who proposes delay—
will not mislead any member of this house. (Cheers.) We
clearly understand that that for which we are voting is,
whether the measure shall ke adopted or not. (Cheers.)
No man will be misled into the error of fancying that,
though in favour of the bill, he is only voting for delay,
and not against the bill. If this is clearly understood, and
the votes given "Ay" or "No.' upon the measure, then the
tactics resorted to by those who do not openly declare
themselves will not succeed ; and, although they say the
amendment is only for delay, let it be clearly understood
what the truth is. (Cheers.) Lot every member know
that in giving his vote on this motion he will practically
be giving that vote " Ay" or " No" for the measure.
(No, no ! ) Honourable members may say " No." I
do not expect them to concur in the interpretation
which I give. They are against the measure. They
wish to vote against it, but they feel some difficulty in
doing so after having concurred in the resolution of last
see don. (Cheers.) They cannot well get out of the posi-
tion in which they aro placed and seek to escape by a side
door, and endeavour t accomplish it by a motion for de-
lay ; but we require that the votes shall be given in plain
terms, for or against the measure. If the votes be so given
I ana confident in my expectation, that the house will
make good its resolution of last year, and concur in the
second reading of this bill. (Cheers.)
The house then divided, and the numbers were—
For the second reading 215 •
Against ii ......,
161
Maj irity
" ---54
The bill was, therefore, read a second time.
SUPPLY—REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
The house thee went into committee of supply, when the
following votes were severally proposed and agreed to
without discussion :-835,1821. for salaries and expenses of
Customs department; 483,2331. for the coast-guard ;
1,365,'3501. fur selaries and expenses of Inland Revenue
department; and 62,7201. for revenue police—lreland.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL.
Sir G. GREY moved the second reading of this bill,
and explained that its object was to extend the power of
seminary conviction possessed by magistrates to cases of
petty larceny nol exceeding lOs. in value.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD thought that some bettor scheme
than the present bill might be devised for the snore fre-
quent delivery of gaols, without infringing on that great
safeguard of our liberties—the trial by jury.
Mr. ROBERT PALMER said he felt no objection to tho
second reading of the bill.
Mr. HILDYARD thought that the bill would require a
good deal of attention in committee.
Mr. HEYWOOD supported the bill.
The bill was then read a second time. •
On the motion of Colonel DUNNE, the Lunatic Asylum
(Ireland) Bill was referred to a select committee.

LIBRARIES, &a. (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. EwART, leave was obtainod to
bring in a bill for promoting the establishment of free
public libraries, museums, &c., in Ireland.
MARRIAGES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. HEA.DLAII, leave was given to
bring in a bill to impose restrictions on irregular marriages
in Scotland.

ST. MARGARET'S CHURCH.
Mr. FREWEN moved for a return of all sums of
money Which had been voted by the House of Commons
since the year 1800 for repairing or improving the parish
church of St. Margaret's, Westminster.
The return was ordered.
Lord DUNCAN brought in a bill to make further pro-
Talon for the registration of births, deaths, and marriages
in Scotland, which was read a first time.
The house adjourned at half-past one o'clock.

We have received a letter front Mr. John S. W.
Herring, solicitor, of Stafford-chambers, New-road,
Narylebone, begging of us to intimate that he is not the
person of that name referred to in the late attempted
murder and suicide at Marylebene.
MISS JEWSBURT'S NEW NOVEL, " CONSTANCE HEu-
BEBT•"—This remarkable book is exciting great interest.
It is the best we have yet bad from the clover pen of
Miss Jewsbury. " Constance Herbert," says the
Atitencatin, is a poem in its beauty and its lofty purpose
—a romance in its variety and fascination. The tale, as
a tale, is deeply interesting, full of quiet pathos and a
calm and beautiful morality. Constance Herbert' will
be read with pleasure and remembered with healthful
interest."

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pills may be taken without clan-
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Maiden-lane, New York.

ARHY BEFORE SEBASTOPOL COM-

T /4,

The committee re-assembled this morning at the usual

Limn.

Dr. Andrew Smith was recalled. In reply to Lord
Seymour he stated that, when the two departments of
Minister for War. and Secretary at War took place ho
received no instructions to correspond with the Minister
for War alone. By his letter of the Mh May he re-
commended the establishment of hospital ships in the
Black Sea and the Archipelago. Did not then contem.
plate any-at Scutari. When the expedition was sent to
the East he recommended the establishment of general
hospitals at Scutari, but these would have followed as a
matter of course.

Lord Soynaour—The regulations of these hospitals
were established by Dr. Hall ?

Dr. Smith—They were. There were regulations for
the purveyor, but he did not know whether the purveyor
acted upon them. He recommended Mr. Ward as the
first purveyor ; but when Mr. Ward was found in-
efficient he suggested to the War-office the appointment
of Mr. Wreford, and it was afterwards made.
Lord Seymour—Mr. Wreford was G 4 years of age ;
do you mean to say he was the youngest man you had ?
Dr. Smith—Yes, as a purveyor, he was. (Laughter.)
Examination continued—Lord Raglan and Lord de
Ros both wrote to him, remonstrating against the re-
moval of Mr. Ward. They objected to Mr. Ward being.
removed, although a medical board had decided upon
the desirability of his removal.

The Chairman asked for the production of these letters,
but Dr. Smith declined.

The Chairman—They are public letters, to a public
man, on a public question, and I do not understand
their being withheld from the committee.

Mr. Layard observed that it appeared that Lord
Raglan had, in writing the letter referred to, acted in
direct opposition to the decision of the committee by
expressing a wish for Mr. Ward's retention in his office;
and he thought the committee ought to be put in pos-
session of the whole of the circumstances of the matter.

After some further conversation the point was post-
poned for consideration.

Examination resumed—Of his own knowledge he
thought he could state there was an ample supply of
medical comforts at Scutari in the months of November
and December; and he could also state when they were
despatched, in what vessel?, and when they arrived.
The purveyor was the proper person to receive them ;
and he (Dr. Smith) received reports from Mr. Wreford
on the subject. If the receipt of those goods were ac-
knowledged as they bad been, there could be no blame
to the transport department. He (Dr. Smith) had
charge of the medical comforts from October.
Lord Seymour—Then if the committee has been in-
formed that there was a short or inefficient supply of
medical comforts at Scutari during the months of No-
vember and December, how do you account for it?
Dr. Smith—l cannot account for it.

Examination resumed—A. person in his office pur-
chased the medical comforts, and if the supply ~vas found
to be of bad quality the purchaser would be to a certain
extent in fault—but, of course, he would only form a
judgment by samples shown to him. He could
give the names of the parties by whom these articles
were supplied. The bedding, and things of that kind,
as be had previously stated, were supplied by the Ord-
ranee authorities on his requisition as to what was re-
quired. He, sent a requisition, in the first instance, for a
supply for 5,000 mon. This was in the spring of last
year. He kept constantly aiding to these from time to
time up to November. After the first occasion he sent
a person to the transports to see the goods properly
stowed —because he (Dr. Smith) had taken this respon-
sibility on himself. Hesuggested having 2 vessels between
home and Constantinople; which would have answered
very well at the time, but he had afterwards eight ves-
sels set apart for his use. They were, however, not
reserved continuously for his service. He made appli-
cation in October or some lime juice, and obt tined some
accordingly. He did not know when it was despatched,
but he was in receipt of a letter from Varna stating
that it had arrived. He did not remember the date of
that communication. He formed the opinion be had
previously expressed before the committee relative to
the efficient condition of the hospitals upon communi-
cations he bad received from the chief apothecary, and
the dispenser at Scutari, both of whom informed him
that there was sufficient linen for the requirements of
the hospitals, as well as medical comforts.
Chairman—Then if we have been informed that the
soldiers had no sheets upon their beds it must have been
the fault of some person in the hospital ?
Dr. Smith replied that it was impossible for him to
state. It was the purveyor's duty, without doubt, to
supply these articles in the hospital. It was also his
business to see to the cleanliness of the hospital, and to
complete what was necessary in case of a deficiency or
absence of constant supplies. Had that officer abided
by his instructions there would have been no difficulty
in keeping the hospitals in perfect order in every
respect.

Lord Seymour—Having appointed that all clothing
should be sent, as you before stated, to Scutari, to whom
were they consigned ?

Dr. Smith—They were consigned to tha Chief Com-
missary; and he received a communication that the
vessels by which they were despatched had arrived.
The Duke of Newcastle and Mr. Sidney Herbert con-
sulted him as to the propriety of sending out nurses to
the hospitals, and a good deal of conversation took place
on the subject, and nurses were in consequence sent
out.

Lord Seymour—You meant the other day—at least I
understood you so—that you considered the ho3pitals
were in such a state of cleanliness that it required the
critical eye of a woman to detect any dirt in theta ?
Dr. Smith—l said so, but figuratively, of course.
(Laughter.)

Examination resumed —The reports which he received
from the medical men did not state whether the purveyor
was doing his duty or otherwise. That officer had the
general superintendence of the management of the hos-
pital; but, as far as he recollected, the letters he referred
to said nothing at all about the purveyor, nor about the
want of washing in the hospitals. The reports said
nothing either respecting the inefficient state of the cook-
ing department or the food supplied to the patients. He
was consequently led to suppose that the whole conduct
of the hospital was satisfactory.

Lord Seymour.—Do you think the hospital at Varna
was in a better or worse condition than those at Scu-
tari?

Dr. Smith said he had received no report on the sub-
ject, and, accordingly, he had no means of forming an
opinion with regard to it. He had no reason to sup-
pose there was a defective medical staff at Scutari, as
the medical officers never made a complaint to him that
they were short-handed.

Lord Seymour.--You have told us Miss Nightingale
was to go out as superintendent of the nurses ; can you
also inform us with what authority she was invested ?
Dr. Smith.—`Pith no particular authority ; nor was
her position defined beyond that implied by the fact
that she was superintendent of the nurses. The duties
of the nurses were defined by letters of instruction, and
Miss Nightingale was to see that they did their duty—
at least ho believed such was the case. A few medical
men offered their services in connection with the Scutari
hospital, but he did not accept their offers. He did not
think (subject to correction) that any of them offered
their assistance gratuitously. He had endeavoured
constantly to induce young assistants to go out, and had
offered them 40!. for their outfit, 10s. a-day, and 3s. more
for a servant. He obtained 150 or 200, and their con-
duct had been good.

Mr. Drummond—Did not Dr. Hugh MTherson, of
the East India Company, offer his services gratuitously?
Dr. Smith said he did not recollect such a circum-
.

stance.

Sir J. Pakington—l have received a letter this morn-
ing from the Crimea, stating that on the Bth of this
month there was no quinine at Balaklava, though it was
wanted by a regimental surgeon for use in cases of low
fever which ha•l broken out. Have you received any
official information of the fact ?
Dr. Smith replied that he had not, nor had he any
reason to doubt the correctness of the f'ict stated by Sir
J. Pakington. He could not, however, account for the
want of that medicine, as enormous quantities bad been
sent out at different times, and, moreover, there was
always a substitute for it amongst the medical stores.
Mr. Roebuck —Has any report been received from the
commissioners who were sent out to Scutari to inquire
into the state of the hospital ?
Dr. Smith—None.

Mr. Layard here read some extrar:ts from a letter re-
ceived from eminent medical men in London, from a
regimental surgeon in the Crimea, and which was dated
the Ist of January, in which it Wag stated that there was
a want of medicines and medical comforts, and that men
were dying in numbers of dysentery without the sur-
geons being able to relieve them. The hon. gentleman
inquired if that state of .things agreed with the official
reports Dr. Smith had received.

Dr. Smith replied that it did not, and he believed such
a condition of things did not exist. In justice to his
own reputation and the British public, be was bound to
say some portions of Mr. Osborne's evidence were not
correct.

Before retiring, Dr. Smith, in reply to a question
from the Chairman, stated that the quantity of medicine
he had stated had been sent out was quite correct, and
if the chairman had heard differently he had been mis-
informed.

The Hon. and Rev. Mr. Osborne was then recalled,

and, upon what had just fallen from Dr. Smith, defended
the 1:hi,.11 h' 1211,1 imcli• the -,-
1,-, 11 he had given pain LI) D.
by any remarks in reference to him it was quite unin-
tentional on his part.
Dr. Menzies was then called, and was eNamined by
Lord Seymour—He stated that he served as the Deputy
Inspector-General of the Hospitals at Scutari, having
been appointed from the staff, in which he was a first-
class medical officer and bad been since 1827, to his late
office in October last. When he went to Scutari he
had had no experience in the superintendence of hos-
pitals of an extended description. He had never had
more than 120 to 150 patients under his care. He went
out to the Crimea in April last. He stayed at Constan-
tinople, but did not proceed to Varna. After his appoint-
ment as deputy-inspector, he had to do duty under
several medical officers. He had the general and the
barrack hospitals under his care from October. Whilst
there, he was re vested to report upon the amount of
accommodation the hospitals could afford in case of
emergency, and he accordingly did so. He considered
the barrack hospital was merely a supplementary one to
the general, which was better adapted in all respects to
the purpose. He made one'report to the commandant,
another to Dr. Hale, and another to Dr. Andrew
Smith.. Major Sillery was the commandant at
that time, and was the military superintendent
of the hospitals. He did not in those reports
mention that any alterations were necessary in the
hospitals, as he knew that his superiors had inspected
their condition ; but he hinted that something was re-
quired in the way of cleanliness. He did this to the
commandant, and in consequence the hospital was white-
washed. He did not find on the part of the commandant
at that time any difficulty in obtaining what be wanted
done. Before the battle of the Alma there was accom-
modation, for 200 patients in the general hospital. At
the latter end of September he had a hulk added to his
accommodation, which would hold 500 sick and wounded.
At that time he had 21 medical officers under him, and
the general average was one surgeon to attend to
from 50 to 80' patients. After the battle of
the Alma he received assistance daily from
medical officers who came out, and then, as well as after
the battle of Inkerinan, ho was pretty well of in this
respect. He had no returns to show how many he bad.
He was given to understand that the necessary furni-
ture and supplies would_ be furnished by the purveyor.
Mr. Ward was the purveyor, and told him (Dr. Menzies)
that he was not to make himself uneasy in that respect.
Dr. Menzies then read a report which he had pre-
sented to the Government since his arrival' home, rela-
tive to the difficulties be had met with in his duties, and
particularly complaining of the inefficiency of Mr.
Ward and the purveying department.
Lord Seymour (interrupting).—Had you reported
home on the subject of Mr. Ward's inefficiency ?
Dr. Menzies- had, as you will perceive by this re-
port. _

Examination continued—Mr. Ward was not super-
seded until October, when Mr. Wreford arrived and as-
sumed the responsibility of the office. -
Dr. Menzies then went on with his report, at the
conclusion of which

Lord Seymour said—All the different point; in that
report will be found in your reports from time to time
to Dr. Smith, I presume ?

Dr. Menzies--:Yes.

Examination continued—Dr. Hall was at that time
in the Crimea ; but he could not supply their wants
at Scutari. After the battle of the Alma, although
he had more medical aid, there was a deficiency
of stores and bedding; and-Other absolute necessaries.
His duty was exceedingly overwhelniing as connected
with the hospital. He had tp be up day and night, and
his correspondence with different depart rents was so
voluminous that he could scarcely find tame for all he
had to do. Reports were made to him by the officers
under him as to the want of bedding and clothing for
the wards ; and he at once applied to the' purveyor to
supply them, and ordered him, if he hid not got them
by him, to purchase them. The reports of medical officers
as to the state of the hospital for cleanliness I,verennsatis-
factory. His duty was the general, inspection 'of the,
hospital. He remonstrated over and over again with
the purveyor relative to the want of the necessaries he
had mentioned, but without effect. He also represented
the filthy state of the hospital to the commandant. After
the battle of Inkerman the hospitals were in a filthy state,
he was bound to admit that they were not so bad as
might have been expected from the demands made upon
them. Much might have been done to have prevented,
or at all events to have remedied, this state of things,
if the purveyor had been active in the discharge of his
duty, part of which was to see to the cleanliness of the
hospitals.

The Chairman—Were not the hospitals, according to
the accounts we have received from time to time, in a
state which was disgraceful to the country ?
Dr. Menzies—l think the reports as to the filthy con-
dition of the hospitals were greatly exaggerated.
The Chairman—Were not the faeces of the unfortunate
men lying upon the floor at that time ?
Dr. Menzies—l never saw that.

The Chait man—So that, if any one has stated that this
was the case, they have seen what you, as inspector-
general, did not see ?
Dr. Menzies—l did not see anything of the kind.
The Chairman--When you went through the wards
was your nose not offended by the smell which was ex-
haled owing to the filthy state of the men ?
Dr. Menzles—l must say I could not help observing
that the men were in a filthy condition.
Examination continued—The medical men under him
did not as a general thing report that linen and shirts
were wanted in the hospitals. It was true he had been
informed on more than one occasion that the men
wanted shirts, and he at once represented this to the
purveyor, who supplied them as quickly as he could ob-
tain them. The purveyor had some difficulty in getting
them, and on one occasion went to Constantinople to
get some, and had oven there some hardship in
obtaining them. He visited the general hospital
daily ; but he did not go to the barrack -hos-
pital more than once in two or three days. Going
round thus he could see what the patients wanted,
and he must say they were in want of some things, but
not of those immediate comforts which they required.
He understood that what was required was in store, and
that was the reason he wrote to Lord Stratford de Red-
cliffe to that effect.

The Chirman—Could any of the men have have died
for the want of the common necessaries of life without
you knowing it ? _ _

Dr. Menzies—lt is just possible such might be the
case. (Sensation.)

Mr. Layard—Did you ever hear of a dead man being
removed from the hospital and buried, and his name being
left over the bed after another patient had been laid
there, the latter was treated as the man who had died ?
Dr. Menzies—l never heard of such a thing. If it did
occur it must have been some fault of the purveyor.
Mr. Layard—But the purveyor doesn't look after the
sick, does he ?
Dr. Menzies—No.

Examination continued—The commission of inquiry
arrived at the hospitals in ~November last. He com-
plained to the commission respecting the unsatisfactory
state of the purveying department ; and he ascribed
mainly but not entirely to that the want of the many re-
quisites which were felt. He also mentioned that he was
deficient in his orderlies. He was not aware whether or
not he had reported this 'to Dr. Smith, or whether he did
report it to Dr. Hall. On second thoughts, he believed
he did report this to, Dr. Smith.
Lord Seymour—Dr. Andrew Smith informed the
Times Commissioner before he went out to Constanti-
nople that nothing was wanted in the hospitals, and he
founded that statement upon reports received from you.
Did you send in such reports ?
Dr. Menzies—l have no recollection of stating to Dr.
Smith, in any of my reports, that the hospital was in a
satisfactory state, but I understood it to be so from the
reports made to me.

Mr. Layard—Were you satisfied with this hearsay
evidence?

Dr. Menzies—lt was impossible for me, w;th my mul-
tifarious duties, to look after the purveyor and other
departments.

Examination continued—No reports were made to
him as to the washing. He understood it was done by
contract. (Laughter.) It was the purveyor's duty to
look after this. When he had been informed that the
men wanted shirts, he might have noticed in the course
of his rounds on a subsequent day whether they had
them or not. It was impossible to answer that ques-
tion exactly—because the overwhelming duties he had
to perform prevented his attending to those minor mat-
ters.

The Chairman—Minor matters ! What do you mean
by minor matters ?

Dr. Menzies—l mean those matters which come more
immediately under the superintendence of the purveyor.
I was obliged to perform other duties.
After replying to a few questions relative to the land-
ing of the sick and wounded from the transports,
The committee adjourned, it being close upon four
o'clock, on the announcement that the Speaker was at
prayers.

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