The Sun.
London, England, 1855-06-13 00:00:00

DECIMAL COINAGE.

Mr. BROWN, who addressed the house in so low a
tone as to be nearly inaudible, moved—That, in the
opinion of this house, the initiation of the decimal system
of coinage, by the issue of the florin, has been eminently
successful and satisfactory ; that a further extension of
such system will be of great public advantage ; that an
humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying
that her Majesty will he graciously piea-;ed to complete
the decimal scale with the pound and the florin, as sug-
gested by two commissions and a committee of the House
of Commons, by authorising the issue of silver coins to
represent the value of the one-hundredth part of a pound,
and copper coins to represent the one thousandth part of
a pound, to be called cents and mils respectively, or to
bear such other names as her Majesty may deem advisa-
ble. The hon. member, after adverting to the commission
appointed by Mr. Spring Rice soon after the destruction
of the old House of Commons, and quoting some ex-
tracts from their report in favour of a decimal coinage,
said that, although some inconvenience might perhaps at
first arise from the change which he recommended, he
was quite certain that it would be very speedily got
over, and that the facilities which a decimal coinage
would afford in the way of calculation would be a great
national benefit. The adoption of a decimal system had
been recommended by many conferences at Frankfort-
on-the-Maine and Vienna ; and the advantages which
were derived from the existence of such a system in
China were witnessed by Dr. Bowring, who, in his work
upon that country, bore testimony to the ease and ac-
curacy with which calculations were made by the
Chinese. The universal adoption of a uniform decimal
system of coinage would greatly facilitate the calcula-
tion of exchanges between different countries ; and there
were various modes in which the change from the exist-
ing coinage to such a system might be made, so that
neither individuals nor the public would sustain any loss.
Lord STANLEY seconded the motion. He had
complied with the request of his hon. friend that he
would do so, partly beause he had been a member of the
committee which sat upon this subject two years ago,
and partly because, however little personally acquainted
with commercial matters, he felt competent to bear wit-
ness to the preponderance of opinion in favour of the
change recommended by his hon. friend, which existed
among the commercial classes in mercantile and manu-
facturing towns. To the idea which did, and might
perhaps still, exist, that the proposition for the adoption
of a decimal system was a visionary theory, which might
be supported by the opinions of a few hon. members,
but was not recommended by any great scientific autho-
rity, nor felt by the country to be a practical necessity,
ho would oppose such authorities as Babbage, De
Morgan, General Pasley, Herschel, and many others,
whom he was only prevented from mentioning by
want of time—the opinion of the committee which
sat in 1838, that of the commission which re-
ported last year, and that of the committee appointed
by the house in 1353, which approached the subject in a
fair and candid spirit, and before which evidence of the
most various kinds was taken. It was also supported
by 200 or 300 members of the two houses of the Legis-
lature, who were declared partisans of the proposition
embodied in the report of the last-mentioned committee ;
and in addition to this, most of the chambers of com-
merce and great mercantile bodies, most of the banks
and commercial establishments of the country were in
favour of such a decimal system. As to the advantage
of the change, he believed there was no room for argu-
ment. There was in its favour such an overwhelming pre-
vvnedlnettriN:: ohadfevidence as amounted almost to unanimity.
for such a systemo
a system which proceeded by regular
multiples of any number other than ten, the substitution
had we not a decimal
a decimal system would be of great
advantage in caicef as it happened that not only
which proceeded by regular
jaertem,b not even a system
proposed alterati n wenld have multiples
two o fadvantages—first,

the transition from a non-decimal to a decimal ; and
secondly, the transition from an irregular to a regular
system. Two practical questions had to be considered.
First—and this was the most material—what was the
proper unit or basis on which such a system should rest ;
and secondly, whether any temporary or pertial incon-
venience might arise, which would be sufficient to coun-
terbalance in any material degree the ultimate advan-
tages which would be derived from the change. In re-
grrd to the unit or basis, three different plans had been
proposed. The first gave what he might call the uniform
penny system. The penny was taken as the basis of the
coinage. The value of the next coin was 10d., and the
next 100 d., or Bs. 4d. No doubt, it was in favour of
this plan that it left undisturbed the particular coin in
which all the smaller transactions we're carried on ; but
it was to his mind a fatal objection to that it would
destroy every other existing coin. (Hear.) Under such
a system by far the greater part of the coinage of this
country could no longer be used either for purposes of
account or of circulation, Another 'objection was that
the largest coin would be of the value of ohly Bs. 4d.,
and as all sums now written in potinds would have to be
written in the new denothination, the number of figures
would be doubled, and the labour of keeping accounts
much increased. The smallness of the coin would also
increase the proportionate expense of coinage ; and
would, in addition, render it inconvenient for practical
use. A further objection to such a system was, that it
would be necessary in accounts to take the penny as the
basis of calculations, and then you would increase the
number of figures to be employed, and therefore materi-
ally add to the labour. The second proposition was this
—ate retain the penny to make the next above a penny
a tenpenny piece, and then, if necessary, to add another
piece of one hundred pence. But in order to preserve the
pound as the basis, it necessitated the making of twenty
pieces of twelve pence each, or twenty-four pieces of
ten pence each. If there was any respect in which
the decimal system produced inconvenience it was
where they were dealing with small amounts and with
persons not conversant with commercial transactions ;
but where the decimal system would be really advanta-
geous, namely, when it involved large calculations, that
system failed altogether, and they were left to the cum-
brous and inconvenient methods now in use. The com-
promise that he suggested was to retain at once the penny
and the pound. There had been great exaggeration as
to the amount of interference with the existing course of
affairs which was necessary to introduce a decimal system.
Now, what was the system of coinage proposed by the
committee ? It was to retain the shilling, the florin, the
half-sovereign, the crown, and also, if possible, the half-
crown. Then it was said you required to destroy or
remodel your who'e copper coinage. It was true they
would require to change in a small degree the value of
the copper coinage; but all that was proposed in the
plan of the committee was to insert a new coin be-
tween the penny and the farthing, and that did not
require the calling in of any coin now in use. By chang-
ing the value of the copper coinage they inflicted some
slight loss on the holders of the copper coinage, but be
apprehended there were no holders of copper coinage in
any great quantities. But it was said that the penny
was the poor man's coin, and in altering that they were
exposing him to fraud. He (Lord Stanley) was quite
content to argue that question on its owu merits. The
only change that would be made in the value of the penny
would be this, that twelvepence halfpenny, instead of
twelvepence, would go to the shilling. once impress that
fact on the publio mind, and the difficulty was sur-
mounted. Then it was said that in the cases of payment
iu the army and navy and the Government offices some
confusion would take place. That again was an assertion
which had not been supported by any evidence, because,
in point of fact, the payments were not made in copper.
The only case where any real difficulty occurred was in
that of the postal stamp and tolls levied by act of Par-
liament. There were two ways of getting over the
difficulty about the postal stamp ; either they might
reduce the price of the penny letter stamp by one twenty-
fifth, which would not be attended by any consider-
able loss of revenue ; or they might have recourse to the
alternative of raising the penny stamp to a penny and
one-fifth. As to the question of tolls and other pay-
ments fixed by act of Parliament, various modes had
been suggested of overcoming the difficulty in that re-
spect. The simplest was this—to allow the use of the
next coin above a penny for a limited time, and then to
have recourse to the penny at its now reduced value.
The introduction of the florin was, in fact, the adoption
of the first step towards a decimal coinage. We had
already a decimal coinage, so far as two coins were con-
cerned, and we only wanted a third to fit into them.
With respect to the amendment about to be proposed by
the hon. member (Mr. J. B. Smith), for calling together
a congress of nations for considering the sub-
ject of a decimal coinage, he was inclined to think that
no practical advantage would result from such a pre-
nosal, if adopted. The experiment had already been tried
among the German States, and had not answered. He
should therefore oppose the amendment; and he had only
to express his hope that the Government would take
in hand and endeavour to carry through the proposi-
tions embodied in the report of the committee. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. B. SMITH said he quite agreed with his hon.
friend the member for South Lancashire and the noble
lord, as to the importance of a decimal system of coinage.
He did not think they overrated the advantage of it ; he
only condemned the principle which they were desirous
of adopting. He thought the principle ought not to be
adopted, at least without t^arther consideration. The
committee of the House of Commons which sat on this
subject, and of which he was a member, appeared to
have been embodied for the mere purpose of reporting
on a foregone conclusion. (Hear.) Every member of
it, with but one exception, was of one opinion—(a laugh)
—and it was very remarkable that every witness who was
examined before them was in favour or the X unit. The
' fact was, that they heard no evidence but what was one-
sided. Now, what would be the effect of the X unit 1 It
would -be equivalent to asking her Majesty to create a
piece representing the one-hundredth part of a £, and an-
other the one-thousandth part of aX. They could not
make use of it in the payment of any sum under sixpence.
They could not pay a halfpenny or a penny toll. Sup-
posing the motion before the house was carried, they
would have a decimal system of coinage and a duodeci-
mal system of weights and measures, and that would en-
tail very serious loss on the working classes. In America
they had adopted a decimal coinage, but they retained
the English system of weights and measures ; and the
consequence was that in order to make the two systems
harmonious they were obliged to resort to two coins
which were absolutely illegal, namely, the I.Bth and the
1-16th of a dollar. He apprehended his hon. friend (Mr.
Brown) did not intend that we should be always with-
out a decimal system of weights and measures. If it
were possible to get the different nations of the world to
adopt a uniform system of money, weights, and mea-
sures, that would be a greater advantage than we could
derive from having a decimal coinage only. But if we
failed in that object, then we should look out for that
system which was the simplest, and which would create
the least inconvenience in changing from our exist-
ing practice. It had been said that an international
coinage would be as difficult to bring about as an inter-
national language, but he would remind the house that
an international system of coinage had been attempted,
and had been partly carried out with great success, The
first idea of that kind originated in France. In 1790
Talleyrand moved in the National Assembly that the
King of Great Britain and the sovereigns of the other
nations of Europe should be invited to send representa-
tives to a congress of nations to consider the practica-
bility of adopting an international system of money,
weights, and measures. At that time French notions
were not very favourably received in this country, and we
sent no representative to that congress, but the Nether-
lands and Switzerland sent two learned men, and they
agreed in the system which was now in vogue in France.
That was not the only instance, for Holland changed her
coinage and adopted the samesystem as prevailed iu South
Germany. He denied that the congress in Germany had
been unsuccessful, as stated by the noble lord. It had
only been adjourned, and not abolished. He hop' d
the Government would not adopt any one-sided view
of this question. England, he thought, was the first to
proclaim free-trade with all the world ; and he thought
it was equally fitting that she should now invite the na-
tions of the world to mutual intercourse on the subject
of a common system of money, weights, and measures ;
and he knew nothing that would tend more to produce
feelings of goodwill among them than a course of that
kind. (Hear.) The hon. member concluded by moving
as an amendment—" That an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty would
be pleased to invite a congress of representatives of all
nations, at some convenient place, with the view of con-
sidering the practicability of adopting a common stand-
ard of money, weights, and measures,"
Mr. LOWE said he bad made it his business to look
into this question, and he had formed a strong opinion
upon it, but an opinion different from that of the hon.
gentleman the member for South Lancashire. To do away
with the compound rules of arithmetic in the reckoning of
money would be an object well worthy their attention ;
but the question they had to settle was the modus deci-
mandi, and he did not think the plan which the hon.
gentleman had hit upon was the proper one. We had a
system in existence already which, though it had many
faults, was found to work well, and the house should be
fully satisfied that the new system it would sanction was
a much better one than that to be superseded. It ap-
peared to him (Mr. Lowe) that the unit which it was
proposed to take was too high. The usual course taken
by other countries was by way of addition, and not by
division. We took the highest sum first, and then sub-
divided it ; they took the right course, which was to fix
on a proper starting point in the first instance. Suppose
we were to adopt the same course with the mile which it
was proposed to adopt with the pound sterling, we would
go on decimalising without getting any measure which
any one would want. The florin had been forced into ex-
istence as the tenth of a pound, and its success as a coin
had been vaunted; but the only success the florin could
boast of, that he knew of, was that when he ought to
reseive half-a-crown he generally received only a florin,
and when he ought to pay two shillings he found he had
generally to pay half-a-crown. Well, they were to have
the florin, and then the cent, that is 2 2-5 d., which re-
presented nothing ; and then they were to have the mil,
which had no other recommendation but that it was the
thousandth part of the pound sterling. This unit was
either too large or too small for practical purposes. We
would, if the new system were adopted, be condemned
to live on decimals. A man when he would dine at a
tavern would be forced to pay for his dinnerin decimals.
He (Mr. Lowe) thought it would be better to pay for
his dinner in integrals than in decimals. They would
also be obliged to use four columns in keeping accounts,
and it would lead to the obliteration of all the mean
coins in existence, as no denominations would be used
gsoacit-
oexocuenptts.theltpowuansd
ssoteirolinAg
maenrdictaheanmd eaenpdin
off coins
be
would
whichh e; and thus
neverher Majesty
bed. Taking
us
e would b strikinge
the
experience of other nations as a guide, he thought it
would be unwise to introduce such divisions of the pound
sterling as was now proposed. The principle that the

house should go on was the adoption of a great scientific I
decimal coinage, and that the unit should be something
which must divide a pound without any surplus. The
main objection he had to the proposed plan was that if
they went below 6d,, they would not find in the new
scale any Coin; except the threepenny piece, which
_bore
any finite ratio with anything in this new currency of
mils. The 4d. would have to be expressed in figures, as
.01666666, with sixes ad infinitum ; the 3d. would have
to be expressed .0125 ; the id. would have to he ex-
pressed .00416666, with sixes ad infinitum ; the
wonld have to be written .00208333', with th.t-Oes ed in=
rinitum ; and the farthirg would have to be written
.001041666, with sixes ad infinitum. This was the simple
system of computation whieh it was proposed to substi-
tute for that now in existence. Then there VI7;;F3 the case
of tolls, the cases of vested interests, and the case of
the reduction of foreign moneys into our new denom-
inations—all
of.wbich were surrounded with difficulties.
With resnect to fore* moneys; we world have to re-
duce the first to vulgar fractions of a pound sterling;
and then to reduce them to the decimals of a Great
multiplications and large fractions are serious matters in
the caleulatinjg of the prices of articles, such as ribbons,
and in his opinion the proposed adteeation Would entail
enormous labour and serious loss instead of a saving of
time and money. He was no friend to congresses of
any description. He entreated the house, although this
question had been powerfully supported, and though
2SO members had given their approval of it, to pause
before they adopted it. Let them rather have a con=
mittee before which gentlemen would be examined who
represented different opinions, but let them not rashly
rush into the new and very imperfect system proposed.
Mr. J. MACGREGOR denied every one of the asser-
tions made by the ton. member for Kidderminster. (A
laugh.) The divisions of the coin in Belgium had been
of the greatest advantage and convenience to the poorer
classes. With respect to the £ sterling, he regretted
that it had not the natural relation to weight, and they
should divide the weight so as not to give the ounce the
awkward value of 31. 178. lad, The decimal coinage of
France was not only most convenient in private accounts,
but in financial accounts, and the accounts were mcst
admirably kept in ;hat country. He thought the prin-
ciple of the decima should be applied to weights and
measures, as well as to the coinage. He approved of
the proposed scheme, but he recommended the hon.
member not to press it at the present moment.
Mr. HANKEY did not think there was any necessity
for a congress. He considered that we were fully com-
petent to act for oerselves, and he thought it was con-
sistent with the general progress, and with the degree of
intelligence which revailed, to adopt some system of coin-
age in substitution of that which we had, and which was a
disgrace and discredit to a great commercial community.
The whole system of our weights and measures was
disgraceful. Foreigners were astonished at it, and said
it was part of our constitution which was upwards of a
thousand years o:d. If it was a thousand years old,
there might be some merit in it. But that was not so,
for till a recent time our system of weights and measures
did rest on an intelligible basis. That system had been
abrogated and lost by modern legislation. By the
change, making the jiteund seven thousand grains, the
confusion whit never existed before had been intro-
duced. The cwt. is the basis of all our calculations in
commercial transactions, but that cwt. is 1121b5., and
this made a cemplication in the whole system of com-
mercial calculations, which was altogether needless. If
the hundred weight were 1001bs., instead of 1121b5., in
the Custom-house alone, it would make a saving of
10,0001. per annum. He was not willing to leave this
question entirely in the hands of the Government, and
therefore he called upon independent members to take
it up, and to continue to agitate the subject, because he
was satisfied that when the public mind was well in-
formed upon it, they would at once see the great advan-
tage of applying the decimal system, not only to weights
and measures, but to money also.
Mr. J. L. RICARDO was anxious to hear what was
the opinion of the Government on the subject, and to
know whetter they assented to this proposal, or whether
they themselves had aay measure to propose as a substi-
tute for it. As yet he had not heard a single argument
against the proposal, which, he believed, was supported
by all the great banking and mercantile houses in the
kingdom. True, the change could not be made without
its giving rise to some inconvenience, but all reforms
were open to that objection, and he hoped the house
would not allow itself to be led away from the question
by the humorous statement of the hon. member for
Kidderminster. Not only had two commissions re-
ported in favour of the proposed change, but the subject
had been fully investigated by a select committee of
the house, when nearly evety witness that was exa-
mined spoke in favour of a decimal system of coinage.
As for waiting until a system should be devised which
should be universally applicable to all nations, that was
quite out of the question ; ii they waited for that period,
there never world be a decimal system introduced into
this country. There would be little or no difficulty in
carrying out the proposed arrangement ; at least it would
not be so great as some people imagined, for navvies on
the Continent soon fell into the way of calculating by
centimes ; and he would undertake to say that if this
system were adopted, in less than a month the whole
country would become qtite familiar with it.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the house was under grea obligation to his hon. friend
for having brought tins subject under its consideration.
The first occasion on which a decimal system of coinage
was propounded by any public body was in 1835, when
a commission was appointed to investigate the subject of
the measure of length, it consequence of the yard mea-
sure and certain other lengths of measure having been
destroyed in the conflagration of the houses of Parlia-
ment. That commissiot in the course of its report ex-
pressed a strong opinion in favour of a decimal system of
coinage, and sketched is clear terms precisely the plan
which the hon. member for South Lancashire had laid
before the house. In tke year 1853 a select committee
was appointed to investigate the subject, who examined
many witnesses, and ultimately they reported in favour
of a plan which was precisely the same as that now pro-
posed. Last year another commission was appointed to
report upon the beet mole of constructing a measure of
length, and that commission bore testimony to the value
of the report which the former commission had adopted.
It was impossible for anybody who had heard the speech
of his hon. frieud,to doubt the earnestness of his con-
victions, or his being actuated by public, and nothing
but public, motives in ')ringing forward this question:.
It was evident he had devoted much time and thought
to this subject, while he; was deeply impressed with its
importance, and it fully deserved the attentive conside-
ration of the house, more especially as it was a subject
in which all classes, front the greatest merchant or the
wealthiest banker down to the poorest day labourer of
the community, were equally interested. (Hear, hear.)
But, doing full justice, as he was disposed to do, to
the motives of his honourable friend, he must at the
same time ask the house to reflect what would
be the practical operation of his motion if it were
adopted. Now the first circumstance that struck him
upon examining this notion was simply that the pound
sterling was to be retained as the unit or standard of our
currency, and the next denomination to be taken between
that and the penny was the florin. We had now the florin
in circulation, but it was not money of account ; we did
not reckon in florins, any more than in crowns and half-
crowns ; it was ,imply a coin in circulation—extensive
circulation he was ready to admit, but it was not money
of account. The proposition of his hon. friend was to
convert the florin into money of account, and he then pro-
posed to introdcce two new coins which were also to be

money of account, one representing the hundredth and
the other the thousandth part of the pound sterling, one
to be called a cent and the other a mil. Now that was
the outline of the system which his hon. friend pro-
posed for the consideration of the house, and if it were
adopted the house would be pledged in any. future deal-
ing with the subject to a system which would restrict
the currency to four denominations of coins. Now
the subject had been considered by other persons besides
the commissioners and the committee to which he had
referred, and most of those persons had come to differ-
ent conclusions in laying down the basis of a decimal
coinage. The first plan was that that proposed by Mr.
Rathbone, which was founded upon the penny ; instead
of descending it ascended from the penny. It proposed
that there should be the penny ; a tenpenny piece, called
an albion ; and a coin called an imperial, representing
100 pence, or Bs. 4. Another plan started from the
farthing, proposed a second representing 2.3 d., a florin
valued at 2s. ld., and a fourth coin valued at 11. Os. 10d.
Sir John Herschel, the late Master of the Mint, sug-
gested a plan which recognised the penny, but which
proposed that the mil should be equal to a farthing,
ten mils to 2d., the florin to 2s. id., and the crown or
Victoria to 1/. 0,. 10d. Another plan proposed that
the smallest coin should be a cash or a farthing ;
five cashes being equal to id. fifty to is., 100 to a
cent, and 1,000 to a mil. There were several other
plans on record, but for the present he would confine
himself to-the one now before the house. On analysing
the plan of the hon. gentleman he found an objection, in
the first place, to the cent and mil as coins. The cent,
as a pure silver coin of the value of 2 2-5 d., would be too
small to maintain its ground in circulation, and as a cop-
per coin of the same value would be too large and bulky
ever to come into use. Then the mil was a coin some-
what smaller than the farthing, and the trouble of giving
up all the calculations based on pence for a calculation
based on a coin so infinitesimal as the mil was a trouble
that few people would like to be subjected to. But neither
the cent nor the mil were multiples of existing coins ;
and the reducing the existing coins into those proposed
by the honourable gentleman would involve the employ-
ment of a lengthy and tedious series of decimals. Thus
the Mint price of gold, 3/. 17s. 10d., reduced into the
new system, would be expressed thus-3 pounds, Bflorins,
9 cents, 3 mils, and 75-thousandths of a mil ; and the
Bank price of gold, viz., 3/, 17s. 9d., would be 3 pounds,
8 ft., 8 cents, 7 mils, and 5-thousandths. (Laughter.)
Then, in adjusting the new rates of duty or payment, it
would be necessary to fix a sum either greater or less
than the existing sum. That would be an endless trou-
ble if it were undertaken by Parliament ; and if, instead
of Parliament, the matter were left to the discretion of
the Government, that would be imposing upon them the
solution c,f a question scarcely, if at all, capable of satis-
factory settlement. There were other difficulties that
would accompany the plan, which differed materially
from that of Sir John Herschel. Shillings and pence
could not be abolished without a legislative act, for
though the ancient prerogatives of the Croy n with re-
spect to the coinage were ample, those prerogatives
had been so limited by succe,sive acts of Parliament
that at present they could not apply to the case of a
change of coinage so extensive as that in contempla-
tion. But suppose the address adopted, and the new
coins struck and issued, there would be no act of Par-
liament constituting those coins moneys of account ; all
the public tolls and taxes would be collected in the old
moneys, and there would be no inducement to any one
to put those coins in circulation. The simple effect of
the adoption of the address would be that those coins
would be struck at the Mint, and be collected solely in
the numismatic cabinets. He (the Chancellor of the Ex:

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVEN I NG, JUNE 13 1855

chequer) had no doubt that the hon. member had only
wished that the subject should, be discussed in the house,
and that he did not desire to pledge either himself or the
house to adhere to the' details of the plan now before
them. For himself, he would be glad to see realised the
principle of the hon. gentleman, if it could be done with-
dut inconvenienee; but he could not help thinking that
the house would not be prepared to record by a solemn
vote any definitive resolution rq&cin a subject so intricate.
The question before them was not one of mere abstrac-
tion ; they were not legislating for a Utopia in which no
customs prevailed or contracts existed ; they were not
living in tepublicEe Platonis, but in fcescibus Romuli,
Mr. CARDWELL was not at all surprised that the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was not at once prepared to take a step in the way of
altering the coinage; for the practical question really was
whether the tithe hat] arrived at which they could act ?'
He hoped, however, that the house would notice this
important fact, that they were • dealing with no corn-
pleity of plans. The present was the plan recommended
by the dothraistion of 1838 and by the committee of 1853.
To the plan Sir John Herschel gave his entire concur-
rence, as might be seen frdm Ms evidence ; and he (Mr.
Cardwell) was at loss to conceive how the right hon.gen-
tleman could have taken up the idea that SirJ.llerschel
was opposed to it. As for the inconvenient size of the
cent and mil, the silver cent being of the value of 2 2-5
pence, could scarcely be ally less than the existing three-
penny piece ; and as the mil'. was but 4 per cent. less than
the farthing, the difference in the size would be quite in-
appreciable. While they had been favoured out-of-
doors with a perfect deluge of schemes for decimal coin-
age, not one of them had been advocated within doors.
One point of the debate would therefore be, that the
scheme of his honourable friend, being unopposed
by any other, was the scheme at which the house
arrived at the result of their discussions. He did
not himself think that to a scientific mind there was any
insuperable difficulty in the matter. He thought his
hon. friend was entitled to a great deal of credit for the
trouble he bad taken with it, and the manner in which
he had brought it before the house, but he did not him-
self think that the time • was yet come for introducing
the changes it was proposed to execute. Their practical
course was to prepare public opinion for the adoption of
the change ; but it would be hazardous, on account of the
excitement it might create, to introduce that change
without such Previous preparation. In the community
of Athens, while their works of art were most elaborate,
they were very far behind in their coins. The reason was,
as we were told, that the ancient coioage had recommended
itself by its purity, and had become so universally known
by its primitive emblem that it would have been difficult
to make any difference in its form without exciting
great suspicion against it, and virtually contracting
its circulation. The case was the same with Venice. The
changes in our own coinage made by James 11. in his
wars in Ireland were redressed in the reign of Geo. 111.,
and that was a change which took place without diffi-
culty. The conclusion of the whole matter was this :
they had before them a decimal plan of great value ; they
had prepared the intelligent portion of the public for the
reception of that scheme ; but the working classes were
not aware that scientific men had turned their attention
to the subject, and to change the currency in which con-
tracts had been made without the concurrence of the
great masa of the people would be premature and un-
safe. He thought the house was indebted to the hon.
member for South Lancashire for bring for ward the sub-
ject ; but he hoped that the hon. gentleman would be
content with the discussion which bad taken place, and
would consent to withdraw his motion for the present.
Mr. BROWN having briefly replied, refusing to with-
draw his resolution.

Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. member must
perceive that even among the advocates of a decimal
coinage there were such differences of opinion as to the
particular way in which that object should be effected
that it would be inexpedient to press a resolution which
pledged the house to one particular mode. For his own
part, if he were called upon to carry out a decimal coin-
age, he did not know that he would take the pound as
the unit. At all events, there were many who, thinking
a decimal coinage desirable, would begin at the end,
and make their unit the lowest denomination of coin.
But the subject was one of such vast importance, and
the adoption of the resolutions would excite such expec-
tations in the minds of the people—expectations which
could not be realised, at least for a considerable time—
that he hoped the house would not be asked to divide.
Mr. BROWN said he was willing to withdraw all but
the first and second resolutions, which were to the effect
" that, in the opinion of this house, the initiation of the
decimal system of coinage, by the issue of the florin,
has been eminently successful and satisfactory," and
" that a further extension of such system will be of great
public advantage."
The house then divided, when there voted—
For the resolution
Against it
Majority . —79
The result was received with considerable cheering.
EDUCATION (IRELAND).

Mr. KENNEDY rose to move an add;ess for a com-
mission to inquire into the arrangements most desirable
for rendering national education in Ireland more com-
prehensive and complete—lst. By means of industrial
instruction adapted to the wants and circumstances of
the several districts of Ireland. 2d. By securing the
most efficient teachers by an adequate scale of salaries
commensurate with their important and engrossing du-
ties. The hon, member said that his object was to in-
crease the industrial system of education which had for
some time been adopted in Ireland. There were at pre-
sent 5,023 national schools, which were attended by
550,000 children, whereas they ought to contain nearly
1,000,003. The reason why the number was so small was
that the industrial system was not sufficiently extended.
The average attendance in the national schools was 111,
whilst in the 43 industrial schools the average attendance
was nearly 400. One-third of the industrial training was
given in the workhouse schools, for out of the 65,000
children educated under that system, there were 21,486
in the workhousa'schools. The industrial branch was a
,graft on the institutions establishedby theNationalßoard
which consisted of 15 persons, 6 of whom were members
of his own profession. Now, in his opinion, a board of
education ought not to contain so many barristers, but
such men as Mr. Dargan,. Sir R. Peel, and Professor Sul-
livan, who were desirous of developing the resources and
promoting the industry of the country. Ha thought a bene-
cial change might be effected by placing on the board
mien who were conversant with the subject. In speak-
ing of industrial education, it would not be fair to pass
over the good which had been done by independent in-
stitutions which were unconnected with any board or
grant—such as the school at Bonmahon, where, in the
course of two years and a half, twenty boys had left a
balance in their favour of 500/. He believed the system
acted upon in Belgium was perfectly applicable to Ire-
land. In Belgium a grant was made by the State to-
wards education, and another by the district in which
the school was situated. The contractor was left free to
manage thq institution, but the Government reserved the
right of inspection, and the result had been most re-
markable. In Flanders there were 65 establishments of
this kind, called workshops, and the result had been
that in 53 of the districts in which these establishments
existed wages had increased, and in 25 cases these work-
shops had led to the establishment of factories and other
workshops.
An Hor. MEMBER here noticed that there were not
40 members present; and the Speaker having ascertained
that there 'were only 37, the house, at half-past 11, stood
adjourned until te-morrow (this day).
PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—JUNE 12.
DECIMAL COINAGE.
Motion made and question put, " That, in the opinion of
this house, the initiation of the decimal system of coin-
age by the issue of the florin has been eminently suc-
cessful and satisfactory." The house divided—Ayes
. 135, Noes 56.

. ,
AYES.-135.
Acton, J. Grosvenor, Ld. R. North, F.
Atherton, W. Guinness, R.
Hadfield, G. .22 O'Brien, P. Oakes, J.
Baird, J. ad
Barnes, T. Hankey, T. O'Connell, D.
Baxter, W. Heywood, J. O'Flaherty, A.
Beamish, F. Heyworth, L. Oliveira, B.
Riggs, W. Hindley, C. Packe, C.
Bland, L. A. Howard, Lord Pakington, Sir J.
Blandford. Marquis of Hume, W. Patten, J.
Bowyer G. ilutchins,:E. Peacocke, G.
Brady, J. Hutt, W. Percy, 3.
Bramley-Moore, J. Ingham, R. Phillimore, J. G.
Bright, J. Jackson, W. i3ilkington, J.
Brockman, E. D. Johnstone, J. Pollard-Urquhart, W .
Byng, G. Jolliffe, Sir W. Piice, W.
Cairns, H. Keating, H. S. Ricardo, J.
Caulfield, Col. J. Kennedy, T. Ricardo, S
Cecil, Lord R. Kerrison, Sir E. Robartes, T.
Chambers, M. Kershaw, J. Rushout, Col. G.
Cheetham, J. King, P. RusselL:F. C.
Clay, Sir W., Bt. Kirk, IV. Sc•illy, F.
Cobden, R. Knight, F. Scully, V.
Co'ville, C. R. Lang ton, 11. G. Seymour, W. D.
Cowan, C. Laslett, W. Stafford, A.
Crook, J. Lee, W. Starkie, Le G.
Crossley, F. Legit, G. C. - Stirling, W.
De Vere, S. Liddell, IL G. Strutt, E.
Dillwyn, L. Lindsay, W. Stuart, W.
Duncan, G. Lytton, Sir G. Swift, Ti.
DundasAG. Macartney, G. Talbot, C.
Dunlop, A. Mackie, J. Taylor, Col.
Dunne, Col. M`Cann, 3. Thompson, G.
Egerton, W. Macgregor, Jas. Thornely, T.
Farnham, E. Macgregor, John Tollcmache, J.
Ferguson, J. MacMahon, P. Vyvyan, Six R.
F,tzGerald, Sir J. McTaggart, Sir J. Warner, E.
Foley, J. Maguire, J. 'Watson, W.
Fox, W. ' • Meagher, T. Whatman, J.
Gaskell, J. Illi 1 ligan, R. Wickham, H. W.
George, J. Michell, W...,1 Wilkinson, W.
diadstone, Capt. J. Moffatt, G. Willcox, B.
Goderich, Vis. Moody, C. - Williams, W.
Gordon, A. Mowbray, J. Woodd, B.
Gower, F.
.Murrough, J. TELLERS
Graham, Lord W. Naas, Lord Brown, W.
Grenfell, Chas. Norreys, Sir, D. Stanley,',Lord

Acland, Sir T.
Adcock, T.
Ball, E.
Baring, Sir F.
Beaumont, W.
Bell, J.
Berkeley, C.
Blackburn, P.
liouverie, Hon. E. P.
Brand, 11. B. W.
Burrower, R.
Dashwood, Sir G. 11.
Dtyies, J. L.
Egerton, E. C.
Fergus, J.
Fitzroy, Hon. IL
Galway, Viscount.
Grey, Sir G.
Gurney,
Hastic,:Alex.

NOES-56.
Headlam, T. Pritchard, J.
Horsman, E. Sawle, C.
Ho nom, Lord Smith, J. B.
Howard, C. Smith, R.
Trton, S. Smollett, A.
Kendall, N. Spooner, R.
Lewis, Sir G. C. Tancred,ll.
Lowe, R. Thornhill, W.
Malins. E. . Vance, J.
Massey, W. Vivian, 11. 11.
Mitchell, T. Walcott, Admiral
Molesworth, Sir W. Walter, J.
Monck, Viscount Waterpark, Lord
Mon creiff, ,T. Wilson, J.
Montgomery, Sir G. Wise. A.
Osborne, R. Wood, Sir C.
Pakentram, T. 11.
Palmer, Robert TELLERS
Palmerston, Visct . Hayter, W.
Peel, F. Mulgrave, Earl of

RECEIPT AND DRAFT STAMPS.—Yesterday a return
was issued, showing the number of receipt stamps sold
or issued in England, Scotland, and Ireland. In the
four quarters ended Oct. last the number of penny receipt
stamps issued was 62,320,803, and the revenue was
259,6701. Os. 3d. The penny draft stamp in the same
period numbered 6,492,900, and the revenue 27,0531.155.
Only two quarters have expired since the adoption of
penny receipt and draft stamps. In the two quarters
ended the 31st March last the number was 30,806,213,
and the revenue 128,304 4,1. Ed.