The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-04 00:00:00

hould be published, has been very atiictly acted upon.
I cannot at this moment undertake to sac what papers will
be laid upon the table besides the protocols but any papers
necessary for the clear understanding of thew will be pro-
duced, and I think my noble friend will learn a great deal
more from those protocols than he imagines.
The subject then dropped, and
The house adjourned at 25 minutes after 7 o'clock.

point that I hope that that prudence may be observed
-which I think the circumstances of the case really de-
mand. My reason for saying this is that at the conclusion
of the conferences, or when they were suspended, Count
Duel expressly stated that he considered that the means
for obtaining a peace were not wholly exhausted, and
that it would be the special duty of Austria to endea- .
your to discover some mode of attaining that end consist- HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
fent'', with the engagements into whichshe had entered with
The SPIULIKER took the chair at four o'clock.
the other Powers. My lords, whether any proposal that The Dundee and Perth and Aberdeen Railway Bill,
may be thus framed will be likely to be satisfactory to her Maryport and Carlisle Railway Bill, and the Oldham Ga
Bill were read a third time and passed.
Gas.
- Majesty's Government, lam sure I cannot venture to say ; and Water
but on a question of such magnitude, as to whether it may The following bills were ordered to be considered :
honourable be possible to conclude a safe andpeace, I am Kingston-upon-Thames Improvement ; Paisley Burgh ;
persuaded that your lordships will feel that any.proposi..- and Birmingham CanalpE PETITIONS.
unprejudiced
Petitions were presented by the Sheriffs of the city of
tion that may be made to us should receive apatiGenetvearnhd-
unprejudiced consideration from her Majesty's
London, at the bar, on the subject of the Metropolis
Management Bill, praying for the introduction of proper
clauses into that bill for the maintenance of the just
irrant t— the( h samea hear)—and
a timer)--- a
compatible adthemowreith
so,
theas thatvigorous consideration
pr o s e c
tionu-
of military operations. (Hear.)
lords, I freely admit that th 3
endowment of
rights of the City ; by Mr. Pellatt, from the Congrega-
The Earl of DERBY—My . tional Church, of Moorfields, against the
..
from the Commissioners of
Maynooth ; by Sir J. Duke, .
the Metropolis
public interests. Nevertheless, I must Sewers of the city of London, against
noble earl ought not to disclose to us anything which might
be prejudicial to the
which he has just Bill • by Mr. Cowan, from Edin-
madebe permitted to say that the statement
Mr. E.
bridaeshire for the abolition
to your lordships appear to me of a. very unsatis- burgh, against the Maynooth endowment ; by
abolition
take Sir W. Clay, anum
factory nature. Undoubtedly, before discussions can Ball, 2 petitions from Care „ . ,
of church rates; . ber of peti tione from
take place in this house upon the present state of public
various
affairs, it will be,necessary that we should have before us parts of the country in favour of his bill for the
the papers which have been promised, and which lam abolition of church rates.
CORK AND BANDON RAILWAY.
glad to find are not alone to contain the mere decisions
In reply
and opinions of the various powers that were present at to Lord BERNARD,
Mr. WILSON said he believed there was no inten•
the conferences, but also the arguments and grounds upon tion at present to use the Cork and Bandon Railway, so
• which those powers based their respective conclusions. far as regarded the night mail. The Postmaster-General
Undoubtedly, also, from such a collection of documents was in communication with the railway company as teoa
asked, the proposition
xWe may gain considerable light, not only as t 3 what is past
day mail, but as the sum sought by
but on what is of still more importance—our prospects for ceededthetveratlauie of the service asa the company far
the future ; but I must say that, although I concur with
was
not entertained.
OF THE WHITE SEA.
the noble earl that no prospect, however slight, of obtain-
In reply to Mr. COLLIER,
ing a safe and honourable peace 'should be sacrificed by
Sir C. WOOD said instructions had been issued to
this country, yet I have heard from him, almost with blockade the ports of the White Sea. The vessels were
feelings of regret, that an extent of forbearance has been ready, and had received their orders, and would proceed
shown on the part of the Allied Powers in regard to their as soon as possible the state of the ice would allow of it.
demand upon Russia, the good policy of which may be DESPATCHES FROM THE CRIMEA.
open to serious question. (Hear, hear.) The propositions In reply to Mr. w - HITESIDE,
of the Allies having been totally rejected, and no counter Sir C. WOOD said the Government must be allowed
propositions—at least, none of a reasonable character
to exercise the most complete discretion as to corn-
municating the news received by telegraphic de-
-having been offered by the enemy, I must repeat spatchea from the Crimea, and they bad already coin-
that I learn with regret that fresh propositions and fresh municated everything which they thought desirable for
negotiations are still in prospect, because I fear that they the public service. (Hear.)
can have no other object but that of wasting time and in- In reply to Mr. ROEBUCK,
• Western Powers. I must say, that Sir C. WOOD said the substance of every telegraphic
etuang the cause of the
I think the propositions which have been made by the despatch had been already communicated to the house.
allied Powers to Russia are even now
below those which Mr. ROEBUCK—Then, I sir, • shall move that another
the requirements of the case demand ; and that the conces- despatch be sent to Lord Raglan, requesting him to
Mons which were made to her, even if they had been ace send some intelligence to this country as to the progress
cepted, would have rendered useless—if not worse than use- of the siege. (Hear.)
' less—the great expenditure of blood and treasure which COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY.
England and France have been put since the commencement Colonel NORTH asked the Under Secretary of War
of the war. I sincerely hope that the Government of Ans- if it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to
tria is earnest in its endeavour to bring about a safe and
grant that part of the return moved for by the hon.
honourable peace—l hope it is in earnest in its desire to
member for Aylesburywhich required, in each case,
fulfil its engagements to support by active assistance the .
since the commencement . . of the war, the reasons to be
endeavours of the allies to obtain a satisfactory peace, and
grantedwithout
that it intends faithfully to perform obligations the hope given for which such commission was
of inducing Austria to contract which has cost England purchase ?
and France so much of precious time and valuable advan- Mr. PEEL said there could be no objection to such
tage in their military operations. (Hear, hear.) My lords, return.
we are now in the second year of this war, and throughout PRACTICAL JOKES IN THE ARMY.
the whole of its progress we have been told over and over
Mr. STANLEY asked the Under-Secretary for War
again that, although it was quite true that her Majesty's
if true that Serjeant Brodie of the Enniskillens
late Government and the members of the present Ministry it was
had clung to the hope of peace longer, perhaps, than theyarrest for preventing a duel being fought
was placed under
his regiment,
_
were even justified in doing, yet, that they had at all between two officers of his regiment, Cornets Baum-
events, gained one great and important advantage from garters and Evans ; it Serjeant Brodie was reprimanded
their singular forbearance, patience, and long-suffering— for his interference by orders of the Commanderen•
namely, that they had secured, both as to 'active measures Chief ; and if there was any objection to place copies of
and as to negotiations, the co-operation of Austria, and pro- the charge preferred against Serjeant Brodie, and the
bably of Prussia also. Well, two years have since elapsed, terms of the reprimand sent from the Horse Guards ?
and, according to the statement of the noble earl to-night,
Mr. PEEL said he understood the reason why See.
what does that co-operation amount to in the pursuit of •
Brodie placed under arrest was
jean t • was disrespectful
,
which your vigour and enterprise were altogether checked
and for the sake of which you adopted a dilator conduct towards his superior officer ; and no reprimand
course of policy, which must greatly aggravate the miss had been sent to him from the Horse Guards.
fortunes and calamities of war? At this moment, my INDIAN OFFICERS. -
lords,
Prussia is excluded altogether, and even etanis In reply to Mr. Omar,
in an attitude of scarcely doubtful hostility ; while, Mr. V. SMITH said he believed, by the announce-
oa the other hand Austria, for whose support you have ment in the Gazette of Tuesday, granting the same rank
sacrificed so much, is now effectively an ally of Russia, and to Indian officers as officers in the Royal Army, her
opposed to the policy of the Western Powers. Au tria still Majesty would be entitled to command the services of
affects to entertain a hope that every means of negotiation dudish .-.. .
cancers in any part of her dominions or elsewhere.
is not yet exhausted, and she proposes by further attempts
at negotiation, to continue—anal no doubt with the same EDUCATION.
results—the same system of perpetual procrastination and In reply to Sir J. PAKINGTON,
delay which shehas pursued for the last two years. (Hear, Lord PALMERSTON said he feared he could not
hear.) My lords, we are now in the midst of the second promise to name any Government day before Whitsun-
campaign, and it is a matter of the utmost importance—it tide to resume the debate on the Education Bill, consis-
is, in fact, the essential groundwork and basis of all our tently with the urgent and pressing business of the
future operations, that we should precisely know in what country ; but the Government would give him the
position we stand, not only towards Prussia—for that is al- earliest possible day after the Whitsuntide recess.
ready pretty clear, I think- but towards Austria likewise.
Tn reply to Mr. HADFIELD,
e This knowledge must have the greatest influence, not only
"
upon the course we should take in negotiation, but upon the Lord J. RUSSELL said he should postpone the bill
militaryoperations of our army. It must have the greatest
which stood in his name till the discussion on the bill of
t
effect upon our conduct and plans to know whether or not the right hon. Bart. should be brought to a conclusion,
we are to reckon on the hostility, the neutrality, or the In reply to Mr. M. GIBSON, who wished to know if
active and cordial co-operation of the power and resources the three bills oa education could be sent to a select
of Austria, and every day and hour that passes without committee,
our coming to a full and distinct understanding with Aus- Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought it desirable that
tria, and without our really knowing where we are and each bill should be considered on its own merits before
how we stand, seriously aggravates our difficulties and they were sent to a select committee.
enormously increases our expenditure and our risks. Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed his willingness to
(Hear.) Therefore, my lords, although Ido not wish to
have his bill submitted '0 a select committee.
press the noble earl to make any statement which ha may
CONSTITUTION FR VICTORIA.
consider would be detrimental to the public service, yet I
could not hear the explanation which he has offered us to-
Lord 3. RUSSELL gave notice that on Thursday
night, leaving, as it does, all the most important questions next he should move for leave to enable her Majesty to
involved in these negotiations in just the same state of un- bring in a bill for the purpose of granting a constitution
certainty, hesitation, and vacillation as they have pre- for the colony of Victoria.
sented for so long a period, without expressing my regret POOR LAW (SCOTLAND) BILL.
at listening to such an unsatisfactory statement from a Mr. E. ELLICE moved the second reading of the
British Minister. This prolonged uneertainty is almost, above bill. In the course of his remarks he stated that,
an equal evil to the avowed hostility of Austral ; and
present,
poor relief in Scotland was limited to the
substantial prospect of obtaining a satisfactory peace, I trust
therefore, however important it may be for us to lose no at
-
aged, the sick, and the iefirin, the able-bodied pauper
that her Majesty's Government will take care, even al-
being in no way entitled to parochial relief. The act
though deprived of the advantage of knowing what are the of 1845 in no way interfered with this limitation, and it
definitive views and policy of Austria, not to intermit the left the pauper exactly where he was, so far as the defi-
most vigorous exertions for the prosecution of the war, nition "pauper" was concerned. But it established an
and not to suffer themselves to be diveited by these pro- entirely new system of parochial relief in Scotland. It
tracted and almost hopeless and illusory negotiations. established parochial boards, parochial rates, and gave
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE-11y lords, it is not pos- power to build workhouses. It empowered the board
Bible for her Majesty's Government to afford the noble earl to appoint an inspector to visit the paupers twice a-year,
opposite the information which he not unnaturally wishes and to take care that they should be provided for ac-
to gain, with a clue regard to the public interests. I trust, cording to the intention of the act. It also required
however, that they will be enabled to furnish it soon • but
after what has fallen from the noble earl, I cannot refrain i
that those inspectors should report to the local board,
w
from saying on the part of the Government that, although which should in turn report to the central authorities.
they have had a desire—a desire which indeed it was their In short, it afforded ample machinery for benefiting
bounden duty to entertain—to secure the co-operation of paupers, if that machinery were properly put in motion.
Austria, nevertheless they have not been induced, from But it went still further. It took away from the pauper
any vain hope of securing that important advantage, to the right of appeal he had to a superior court of law, and
delay the immediate making of those military and naval, it • interposed a central authority between the pauper and
preparations which are essential to the proper conduct of his legal appeal, and no pauper could appeal to the court
the war. (Hear.) Undoubtedly, no expedient has beenagainst the
parochial authorities ertifi-
left untried in the endeavour to obtain that degree f •
° cats signed by that central authority affirming that the
co-operation from other Powers which we had a right to
expect from them ; but during the whole course of the ne-
pauper had a good case of appeal ;and it was conse-
gotiations, up to the conference which lately took place at quently obvious that the real court of appeal was
Vienna, certainly not a day has been lost in the advance- placed in the hands of the central authority. This
ment of those military preparations and efforts which central authority to which he alluded was called
might bring the war to a conclusion; and while I main- the Board of Supervision ; and if he could prove that
tain that it is our duty to avail ourselves of every fair this board had not acted up to its duty, and that the
chance of effecting so desirable a result as agreat European pauper had been defrauded of his just right and privilege,
peace, I equally hold that up to the last moment we ought and that he was in fact in a worse position than he was
to relax none of our exertions for prosecuting the war previous to the passing of the act of '45 ; if he could
with energy and spirit. With the protocols about to be laid prove that the board bad, so far at least as the majority
upon the table your lordships will receive an account of fthe 'failed •
o population was concerned,
entirely in its
the arguments, the diacussions, and all the collateral trans-
actions by which the agreement, based upon those proto- objects ; if he could prove that paupers had no ade-
cols, was accompanied. Undoubtedly, when they are quate means of redress against , injustice on the
laid upon the table, a good opportunity will be afforded part of local authorities, and that no machinery
for the consideration of the negotiations which have whatever was in force or was ever attempted to be in-
taken place, with reference both to the •past conduct stituted locally to see that the act was properly carried
of the Government and to the future policy of this into operation, or to render the pauper secure in his abi-
country, having in view the continuance of the war, lities under the law; if he could show that the pauper bad
if it should be necessary, in order to revent been treated with absolute contempt, that his complaints
the recurrence of those unfortunate misconceptions had been totally disregarded ; if he could show that at
which has thrown Europe into the state in Which it cs I n
placed. ow the eleventh hour, when serious consequences had en-
The Earl of MALMESBURY—As I ventured the other sued, owing to rio interference having been taken in due
evening to express my humble opinion with regard to the time, and that circumstances of a different character
p ar;peoascie tions made to Russia, in the hope of bringing about had compelled an inquiry to be at least made ;
and to state my regret at the probability of a if he could prove that the reports made to that
peace having been
diminished by the nature of those board were full of misrepresentations, which in-
positions, I will not II ow
pro-
subject. But I thinkath make any observations upon that duced the Government to believe that the act was in
the statement which ere is some discrepancy between full operation, and that
facts had been suppressed
my noble friend
and that which he made in ans has made to-night which, if stated, would have proved totally the contrary
I then understood, both from wwht tow me about a week-ago. impression. If be could prove all this hethought he should
friend and from what passed in anothertastad by my noble succeed in making out a good case for the interference
place, that her Ma-
jesty's Government and the French Government, of the house, for its interference in a cause of humanity
by Austria, and of course by Turkey, had supported
to protect the pauper from a state of things which was
sia two alternatives—one, the limitation l'Orforsed to Rue. dicer
the other the neutrality of the Black Sea, ier fleet, and eful •in a civilised country. (Hear, hear.)
the ac
.)
ght my ow, some of these facts he could prove from
noble friend confined himself to a statement that Russia returns made to the house and others upon the authority
been made to of individuals whose integrity acid veracity were beyond
her.
The Earl of CLARENDON—I said that the" pleniP oten- question, Coe ti nine himself, now, exclusively to the
tiaries of Russia had refused to accept a proposition
which Highlands of Scotland, he might state to the house
we thought that country might have accepted with honour that according to a return which he held in his
to herself, as well as another proposition, by which the hand, in the case of three towns, between the years
Black Sea would have been male a neutral sea. 1847 and 1851 no local inspection or local inquiry what-
The Earl of MALMESBURY—My noble friend is cor- ever into the working of the poor-law was made. ea.
tact in saying that he described the plan suggested to Rus- In the absence of that local inspection, what mode r)
of
sia as one quite in unison with her dignity and honour • appeal was left open to the pauper. It was, of course,
but he did not state what the first alternative was, j never intended to leave him entirely in the hands'
want to know whether it was that the Russian fleet should of the local board, because the contemplation of the act
be limited.
was to protect the pauper against injustice on the part
The Earl of CLARENDON—Yes. of local authorities who were ratepayers, and conse-
The Earl of MALMESBURY—Then it is, as I under- quently were obviously interested in getting off
stood; Russia had the choice of two alternatives, and re- cheaply possible. Now, if, for instance,as
.as . w, i , a pauper
fused them both. With respect to the papers which my was denied relief altogether, what appeal had he against
noble friend proposes to lay on the table, I hope he will not
that denial ? His only appeal was to the nearest sheriff,
confine himself entirely to the protocols, and I am encou-
leered in that hope and as the house must be aware in those mountainous
inargateFor nearly a year we have had no official know- and scattered districts, the nearest sheriff was removed
although !I';'3'
ileapers relating to this important subject, for considerable distances ; to reach which would neces-
!aorta the
..aaael:fferent times we have received information sitate not only much time and physical exertion, but in
:°0 ate aii7ol)',e prints, in which I believe many very ela- many cases some expense. The hon. gentleman read an
. reeng _ metre documents have '
obis, frieha(3l are
'erne ve blbeen coreectly copied. extract from a letter, in which it was stated that in
from thenerellip,i'll cannot, oaf e ones emanating from my one instance a pauper had to go no less than 200
foreign newepap4r"ffiee' but course, have been obtained miles to reach the nearest sheriff to lay his appeal before
the
given his int a.
/noe
of
:ere probably taken from him. Again, supposing a pauper had been ad-
the third Point, erwretation of thesepapers my noble friend •
m t d to ,entitled to parochial relief, but ire
according may be argeealeht 'lB Your lo fourd points, or rather of It e be
according to the ow -Tr and e ri !hips are aware, is one lieu of that a penny a week was given to him, the only
I believe lam cola:Cal-a and juleasittles 4 in various way's, ! means of redress open to him, was an appeal to the
has been published of :lilt- lee that aof different parties. 1 Court of Super vision, at Edinburgh. But before he
the third point, and that theTY nableTi3e-neldelr statement ! could make tha t appeal, lie must apply to the locai
tion, if not exactly the
anie,
veetafterwards an tended by inspector for a printed paper, to fill up with
by the French Minister for Foreiessinn'ell..arei,4s turx3nr
lute y'
i the particulars of his case, and that printed
very satisfactory to the public, consiaeffrie.:e- thei,t wosurit I Paper had afteleva ids to be forwarded to the board, if it
have been comanieicated to 113 Si/lee tii.,--i," no papers ' ever was forwarde d thither, through the same inspector;
last year with respect to this question "- °gamin,
ei so that the uncore anate ,super had no security that his
Mend would add to the different proctoColelf' n',„3- Labia , compleint would' - 'reach proper quarter. In fact
possible of the diplomatic documents that hat: -"Y. as as►he
had
before• ,ver the .
Scotland
betweeu him and the Court of Russia, and those d
Z Passed , Means of said, the pauper in had ni o
e eiiate appeal. Having now,. .be
would also greatly assist your lordshir.
an.i
the mete thou
~ At, estlmbril
Rouse of Parliament in understanding and taking a ~,ler I°' tile
r_ooar 1.1 bed that there was t o supervision
rest view of the protocols. r- no local ire r a that country ; that there was
ii nape(
The Earl of CLARENDON—I hope, after the deems p- available mew 3 ion, and that the pauper had not an
ti
has
ea reY noble friend has given of the deep Itch which he I hear)
of
tl a eef appeal. ;;He would next call the attributed to to me, that it was my despatch—(a lauele) I ear) -- whiel 16
house to several special cases—(hear,
--hut e a
• bad stated I Weald illustrate
been have no knowledge of such a despatch ever having bring
forty f t !er
ier
taint published I never 't hearfl of it, and cer- torwarei 41.1Y. It was scarcely usual to
y g rev f saw i , Or
but he eaal
of ray belie communicated it to any one. To the best trusted th a hones cases under such circumstances,
eenee upon tt4 the
intention expressed by the c,onfe- 3 lay before themes as theteZeld
. receive those he sheuld
"ediaga ahounsVt day of their meeting, that their pro- i which the poor-L we
desw aa tdieationa of the mode in
kept secret and nothing that 'Awed ; referring to indil 0.5_ mcietered in Scotland. In
" confirmation of hie aro,