The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-25 00:00:00

titular part of the treaty of Kainardji on which your master's
claim is founded." Count Nesselrode said, " I am not con-
versant with those treaties, but Baron Brunow is conversant
with them; tell your Government to apply to him, and he
will paint out the part of the treaty on which the claim is
founded." But as Baron Brunow never attempted the task,
I conclude that it was not any part of the treaty of Kainardji
that gave such a claim. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen-
tleman therefore creates confusion when he confounds that
claim with the undoubted rights claimed by the EMperor of
Russia for the protection of the Christians in Moldavia and
Wallachia. (Hear, hear.) I will not at this late hour enter
into any kind of disquisition about the navigation of the
Danube, but I may say, that on that point likewise we have
gained pretty, considerable advantage. But we have to con-
sider the whole question, and a most important question it is,
which has occupied us for those two years past, and which I
think may occupy the Parliament of this country even for
future generations—namely, whether it is not necessary to
put some bounds to the progress of Russia, and in what man-
ner that object is to be effected. (Hear.) Far be it from me
to say that I could pretend, from any reflections or lights of
mine, to solve that great problem. (Hear, hear.) I consulted
others not only in England and France—not only the mem-
bers of my own Government ant the members of the French
Government—and I may venture to say, since he did me the
henour to admit me to an audience, the Emperor of the
French—(cheers)—but likewise several statesmen of the
continent of Europe, not eugaged with either power,
but whose well known wisdom and authority, and whose
long experience in political matters entitled their opinions to
the utmost attention. (Hear, hear.) Now what is the posi-
tion of Russia ? It might not be such as would have justified
us in making war, or have excited us to make it ; but,
being at war, it behoves ns all, and my right hon. friend the
member for the University of Oxford as much as any man,
most seriously to consider it. (Hear, hear.) Russia has,
since the commencement of the century, increased her power
more than any other power of Europe. (Hear, hear.) She
has upwards of sixty millions of inhabitants, and has an
army of 800,000 men in time of peace. After a considerable
straggle, and much resistance by Lord Castlereagh, the re-
presentative of this country, and by Prince Talleyrand, the
representative of France, she acquired and retains Poland.
The only limit was, that Poland was united to Russia by her
constitution ; but that link, which gave to Poland a separate
representation—a separate army, and as it were a separate
existence—was totally broken, and a new and hard fetter of
iron was employed to bind her to Russia after the insurrec-
tion of 1831. (Hear, hear.) In Poland she- has erected six
or seven fortresses, of at least equal strength with Sebastopol.
She has conciliated the peasantry to a very great extent by a
policy artfully adapted for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) At
the same time the young men of Poland of rank and intelli-
gence, who might be filled with historic recollections and
patriotic ardour, and would some day rise up against the
policy of Russia, are carefully marked and selected and sent
to a distance in the interior provinces, there to meet.with
no sympathy, where their names are unknown, and their Site
is forgotten by all except the relatives they have left behind.
(Hear, hear.) In the Baltic we find from the discoveries
made last year—since the commencement of the war--that
a great plan of fortifications had been undertaken, which Sir
C. Napier sent home, and which he said would have given
Russia a complete predominance over the Baltic, because when
those fortifications were completed, neither Denmark nor
Sweden, nor any other power could have held up their fingers
against Russia in the Baltic. In Germany she has connected
herself with many of the, smaller princes by marriage. Many
of the princes of Germany, I am sorry to say, live in great
fear of what they think is the revolutionary disposition of
their subjects, and they rely upou their armed forces to pro-
tect them ; but what are those armed forces ? The officers of
those forces are seduced and corrupted by the Russian Court.
Rewards, orders, and distinctions are distributed amongst
them—even the receipt of money to pay debts will be accepted
tpeeent
oenn coef Europe— e
r ma
againstn y,
by them, and that money is liberally given by the Russian
Court, so that Germany, which ought to be the seat of inde-
oudstanbdeefnorfworarydefarors thepro-
under-
mined in its vital strength and independence by Russian arts
and Russian means. I have hitherto not spoken of the im-
mediate danger with which we have had to deal. The imme-
diate danger with which we have had to deal was this— that,
which
should
Russia—has h
after a long course of violence and aggression, Russia had
signed a treaty at Adrianople which gave her new powers, and
confirmed many of the old. The dangers arising from that treaty
to Turkey are admirably pointed out in a despatch of Lord
Aberdeen ; but neither Lord Aberdeen nor the Duke of
Wellington, who was at the head of the ministry at the
time, thought it right to go to, war on account of those
dangers. I believe they acted wisely ; but now that we
are at war we are not to forget the lesson Lord Aber-
deen gave, or keep out of sight the dangers that were
pointed out in that despatch. (Hear, hear.) She had there-
fore great means of influence in Turkey, such means of in-
fluence that I believe, if she had been wisgend prudent, it
was quite sufficient to enable her to gain a permanent con-
trol over the councils of Constantinople. But in an hour of
imprudence—the Sovereign is dead, and the time for severe
comments is passed by—she insisted upon what Turkey
thought a degradation, and which she resolved to resist by
force of arms. Lord Stratford had some time before said,
" I think the time is come when Turkey's position must be
entirely changed. Either she will fall into a state of total
dependence upon Russia, or she must get rid of those ma-
nacles and shackles with which for years past she has been
fettered." We had to choose between leaving her completely
under the sway of Russia, or raising her to something higher.
We chose the latter part of the alternative. The immediate
danger was warded off. The siege of Silistria failed ; but had
it not been for the presence of the allied forces, it would have
been renewed in the summer or autumn and the Russianforces would have been at the Balkan. Russia retired across
the Danube. Austria then said that unless the Principalities
were evacuated she should declare war with Russia, and upon
her forces being assembled Masi/ evacuated, them. Now, it
was because these Principalities were placed under the safe-
guard of Austria, because any attempt to invade Turkey or
to cross the Balkan and reach Constantinople was thus pre-
vented, that we felt ourselves enabled to send to the Crimea
the expedition which, like my right honourable friend
(Mr. Gladstone), I still think we were right in sending, but
the discussion of which I will, like him, reserve for some fu-
ture occasion. There is, however, this fact, that from the
pressure at Sebastopol, the Russian fleet is no longer one
of 18 or 19 sail of the line, but a great part of it has been de-
stroyed by the Russians themselves. The question then came,
how we could diminish her power and put an end to her pre-
ponderance in the Black Sea. lam not at all ashamed of the
manner in which I agreed with Count Buol to invite the Rus-
sian plenipotentiaries to take the initiative upon the question.
Count Buol represented to us that it might be hurtful to the
dignity of Russia to have terms imposed upon her for the
limitation of her power in the Black Sea, but that in consi-
deration of the •security of Europe she might make a propo-
sition to that effect to Turkey, and be asked us, the plenipo-
tentiaries of France and England, not to bring forward our
propositions until he had made the proposal. He made the
proposal, and I followed it up—answering for England, and
not for Russia, as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) sup-
poses--with these words, "In the eyes of England and of
her allies, the best and only admissible conditions of peace
would be those which, being most in harmony with the
honour of Russia, should at the same time be sufficient for
the security of Europe, and for preventing the return of
complications such as that the settlement of which is now in
progress." (Hear.) I wish to ask, provided the security of
Europe was attained and the return of what is called a com-
plication, what is in fact dreadful war, was prevented, was
it not desirable that the terms should be compatible with the
honour of Russia, and should be such as to make her satisfied
with the arrangement ? (Hear.) Therefore lam quite willing to
abide, and I believe my colleagues are ready to abide, by that
declaration which I then made. The answer,which was delayed
fora considerable time, was that the Russian plenipotentiaries
were desired not to make any propositions ; and we are told in
this circular that was in conformity with orders which had been
given by the Emperor Nicholas. I think that was a very
unwise decision. I have always understood that Russians of
great sagacity always considered that the Emperor Nicholas
paid too much attention to his marine, and that his fleets at
Sebastopol and Cronstadt, though they might make a show
on parade, would not be able to compete with those of the
maritime Powers. I believe that to be a very sound opinion,
and therefore I thought it possible that they would have
made this concession, thus giving up something the cession of
which would not really diminish the power of Russia as a
great Power, but would diminish her power in the Black
Sea. I hear it said that if the force was limited, the fleets of
England and France might come in at any time and insult
the coasts of Russia in the Black Sea. How would she be
worse than she has been in the present war, when we have
seen that her fleet has been no security at all ? No sooner
have the fleets of England and. France appeared in the Black
Sea than her ships have skulked into Sebastopol, and several
of them have been destroyed. I told one of those persons
to whom I have alluded, whose name I must not mention,
that ,we intended to propose the limitation of the Russian
fleet, but that I was told Russia would object to it. He
said, " If that is so, it is a proof that she means aggression."
I thought that observation perfectly just. I cannot conceive
why Russia should hesitate to make peace in order that she
may have eighteen or twenty sail of the line at Sebastopol,
unless she meditates some future aggression upon Turkey.
And that I now believe, still more than I did last year,
still more than I did before I went to Vienna, to be in
the contemplation of Russia. Russia thinks that Turkey
cannot endure long, and thinking that when Turkey breaks
up England or France will hasten to sieze Constantinople,
and thud menace her ernpire, she feels it necessary to
be beforehand with these Powers, and make herself mis-
tress of the city. Put it, however, which way you
will—es au act either of aggression or of self-defence—it
comes to the same thing, that it is the intention of Russia, at
some future time—it may be, in no remote future—to possess
herselffof Cpustantinople. (Cheers.) Believing that to be the
case, are the Governments of France and England to close
with the proposition of Russia, that they should have no se- For a long time past the London and North Western,
tehureitflye
eetxse
oe
fpthetih.
aaltfieisn? casl e
admit o f e
anlal c
teh,
eT
iumr keype
rf
eme
ti
ohnt s c
oa lf
theup Lancaster
and oother randr ail
wCa
yarlei slotne , p
aLnai
ensc ash
have
i, re b
eaennd s
nYbjo.
erektsehdi Yorkshire,
and the house recollect that we are by a sti- croonbsbiedreierasbole f
go lose
goods
s and
in transitgrea annoyance
over
their
lines.fmro ,continual
To
security we have propose
lit, but let the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Gladstone)
such
pulation with Austria and our position in the war precluded
an extent has this pilfering been practised, that as
much as 401. or 50/. has been paid at once by way of
Ptsaisalneyd,
from asking for any territorial concession. No doubt, the
silver
return of some of the provinces which Russia has wrested
Articles of every conceivable description were missed.
from Turkey would be a better security than the limitation of compensation to persons whose
stockings
plate
from
amn d
Dhua
mr
the fleet ;but if we had proposed such a course, Austria would property was stolen.
have opposed it, and Russia would have left the conferences.
Not-
and I confess I have seen no better plan than that which we ting Valuableharashawlsflanflannel
e fromja
jackets
e
d
We were, therefore, obliged to resort to the other security, ware from Birmingham, boots and shoes from Not-
proposed, except the other plan, to which Russia was still fries, silk handkerchiefs, tortoiseshell
more opposed, of making the Black Sea altogether a commer- and stationer spirits, combs, books
cial sea, and forbidding the entaance of ships of war •t 't stationery, &c. It was pretty evi-
o .
Such, therefore, is my defence with reference to this point. dent, from the systematic manner in which the
robberies were carried o
The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli)—and his language n, that the thieves must be rail-
seemed to me to be extremely ambiguous—said, "What does way officials ; but when packages conveyed long dis'
it signify whether Russia has four or eight ships more or tances were tampered with, the difficulty was to aucer-
less ?" and then he went on to say, " You ought, in fact, tarn on what line, or what portion of a line, this took
to carry on the war defensively ; you ought to defend place. The Lancaster and Carlisle Company adopted
Turkey when Russia is prepared to attack her." Now the expedient of havingl k for Is but
oc -np vans parce •
this comes to one of two conclusions the right honour- without avail—robberies
were of as frequent occur-
able gentleman has not told us which either to be rence as ever. At I • John
there perpetually to defend Turkey, and thus to make Butler, b k
ength suspicion attached to
of that company,
, a rea sman in the service
au eternal war, or, having defended Turkey against the
say, and his house at Carlisle was searched, but nothing was
immediate aggression, and Russia having consented to
for the hundredth time, that she will respect the integrityof then found to criminate him. He, however, was dia.
Turkey, that we should withdraw our forces and make peace, missed from the company's service a few weeks ago,
having no security beyond those to which Russia has already upon which he removed to Preston. An eye was kept
consented—that is the plan of my right hon. friend the upon his movements, and on Monday night Mr. J. E.
member for the University of Oxford. But my right hon. Brierley, superiniendent of railway police, and Sergeant
friend fairly and manfully avowed that plan. He brought it Pool, a Preston detective, visited Butler's house, and
before the House of Commons of England, and declared that there discovered a quantity of valuable property, includ-
these were terms upon which he thought that we should be dk chiefs, combs, books, &c. The police
secure. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), h lug shawls, han erc • flask,
owever, • er's possession a large tin
said —" Put an end" (not to war—but) "to the negotiations;" also found in the prison
made so as to fit conveniently on a man's chest,
therefore, at once proposing that we should have no success, nd evidently intended to
no security for peace, and at the same time proposing the underneath his waistcoat, a b
ee about half-a-gallon ;
continuance of the war. Can anything be more inconsistent, carry off liquors, its capacity ei
hna've been used for a
more extravagant than such a proposal ? Now it has been a bladder, which seemed to a
small tap, by means
said that Austria has not given us all the support which she similar purpose, a gimlet and.
ts were drawn from
might do. As far as the support to be given in conferences of which, it is surmised, spirits
of ais concerned she has fully given us that support and with re casks—some of these having lost upwards
gal-
gard to this last proposition of calling up the forces of the log—and a key of peculiar construction,
which fitted
Tuesday
pany's vans. On
allies when Turkey was in danger, she said that is locks of the com
no security the
—that is leaving the preponderance before the borough magis-
of Russia unlimited till the prisoner was brought up
the moment when the danger becomes intolerable. (Hear.) trates when Superintendent Brierley deposed to the facts
I must say, sir, Ido not expect, however, that Austria is above narrated. He also stated that the company had
prepared in the present state of the question to take an recentlyim paid 251. for lost shawls, some of which he ,
be-
mediate part in the war against 'Russia. I believe that she
I:eved were among those found at the prisoner's house.
would have consulted her own interest and dignity better if -
The min
was remanded for a week, to afford an oppor-
she had some time ago joined us in that war, but at the same witnesses to identify the stolen pro-
re
time there are considerable-motives, the are ful mo- tunity of procuri g
power
tiVes, to influence her in maintaining peace with Russia. party.

In the first place, she has not her capital in the situation of
either London or Paris, which are free from any danger of
incursion by the Russian army. She has no fortresses in
Gallicia to prevent the Russian army marching at once to
Vienna, while she has no secure alliance on this subject
with Prussia. (Hear, hear.) These are some of the
motives which have deterred her from taking an active
part in the war, and the Austrian Government feel that, un-
less they can show' that there is some predominant and ne-
cessary motive to induce her to go to war, she would not be
justified in calling upon the population of Germany to support
her in it. I tell this openly to the house, because I think
that not only ought justice to be done to Austria, but like-
wise because I do not wish to hold out any hope that she
will take an immediate part in the war. I do think, however,
that her position is such—that :her treaties and engagements
with us are such, that, if the war continues, she will find it
necessary to take part in the war. But of this I feel sure,
that the part Austria has played in not taking a share of the
spoils of Turkey, which Russia had confidently expected, and
in joining us, will never be forgiven by Russia, and, there-
fore, her only safety is in building up such allies as may secure
her against Russia. (Hear, hear.) Sir, for that reason I shall
be ready to vote against the motion of the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Buckinghamshire. This, sir, is a great
national question— perhaps the greatest national question
that ever engased the counsels of the house or called forth
the resources of the country—and yet the right hon. gentle-
man seeks to degrade it to a mere party struggle. Sir, the
right hon. gentleman alluded to the distrust which is felt in
the Government. I do not deny the existence of that dis-
trust, but I do not believe the cure for it would be found in
.the substitution of the right hon. gentleman for my noble
friend who sits on this side of the house. I do not believe such
a change would create that general satisfaction which the
right hon. gentleman seems to expect. (Hear, hear.) I hear
much said about administrative reform. I think that is a
natural desiie, and I entirely agree in the object required ;
but I want to know why it should be presumed that there
arc other men, either sitting on the opposite side of the
house or elsewhere, who could carry out administrative
reform better than those who arc at present in the possession
of office. I believe you could not have a better measure than
that which has been proposed by my noble friend Lord Pan-
mure on the subject of reform in the department of the army.
My noble friend proposes to place the civil branches of the
army under the superintendence of one Secretary of State,
thereby having the eye of one man to watch and the hand of
one man to guide the machinery connected with the army.
So far as the departments of the army are concerned the evils
eomplained of are remedied ; while, with regard to the other
departments of the Government, I do not find-that there is
any special accusation as to them. Ido not find with regard
to the Financial Department, the Home Department, or the
Colonial Department that there has been any complaint made
of inefficiency in those departments. I believe, therefore,
that the right hon. gentleman, while he has not founded his
proposal on any particular accusation, has no better founda-
tion for the remedy which he says will do away with the gene-
ral distrust. lam convinced- that the party opposite would
not gain any credit by the carrying of this motion, because
it would be said that in a great crisis the great Con-
servative party, for upwards of a year, came forward with
the greatest patriotism to support the Crown and sustain
the honour of the country ; but, after little more than
a year, they abandoned that patriotic course when they
thought there was an opportunity of slipping into
office. (Hear.) I believe the right hon. gentleman and those
who vote with him would gain no credit by such a course,
and whatever may be the division in this house I think, in
point of reputation, this has been a false move of the right
hon. gentleman. (Hear.) If he can censure any wit of ours,
if ho can put his finger upon any act of the Government and
censure that act, of course we are open to any censure, to any
observation, to any criticism which this house may choose to
make ; but bring forward vague words, to merely catch up
what seems to be the feeling of the moment, and which may
not last but a day or two, to be so impatient as not to wait
until after the Whitsuntide holidays to know if the negotia-
tions are concluded, betrays, I must say, such a falling off in
the patriotism which has hitherto been displayed in the votes
of hon. gentlemen opposite, that I think they will add nothing
to their fame or reputation by the course they are now taking.
(eh eers. )
On the motion of Mr. WHITESIDE, the debate was then
adjourned until to-morrow (this day).
Sir WM. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring in a bill
to encourage the providing of improved dwellings for the
labouring classes in Ireland.

Lord PALMERSTON intimated that the committee on the
bill for the better local government of the metropolis would
not be resumed until the Tuesday after the recess, and there-
fore the house would meet to-morrow (this day) at the usual
hour, instead of at 12 o'clock, as had been previously ar-
ranged.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at half-past one.

THE MINISTRY AND ITS SUPPORTERS.

A meeting was held yesterday afternoon at the official
residence of the First Lord of the Treasury, in Down-
ing•street, which was numerously attended by all sec-
tions of the Liberal party in the House of Commons.
Being a private meeting, reporters were excluded, and
we are therefore unable to give a detailed account of the
speeches delivered on the occasion. Lord Palmerston,
in a speech of some length, vindicated the policy of his
Government, asserted the unanimity of his colleagues,
and stoutly maintained their resolution to prosecute the
war with vigour until terms should be obtained calcu-
lated to insure a safe and honourable peace. The pre-
cise nature of those terms his lordship claimed for the
Government the right of determining according to cir-
cumstances ; but those of his audience who expected to
hear any definite statement on this momentous question
went away very little wiser than they came. The meet-
ing was afterwards addressed by Messrs. Lowe, Layard,
Bright, Cobden, Lord Robert Grosvenor, ir James
Graham, Mr. Laing, and other gentlemen, who gene-
rally concurred in censuring Mr. Disraeli's resolution,
though considerable difference of opinion was expressed
as to the amendment of Sir F. Baring. The tone of
the meeting, though by no means harmonious, was,
perhaps, as favourable to the Government as could be
expected tinier circumstances so little calculated to
inspire confidence.
The following is a list of the members (numbering 203)
who attended the meeting :
Graham, Sir J. Moncreifr J. Shelburne, Earl
Herbert, S. Thompson, G. King, L.
Wool, Sir C. Gardner, It. Perry, Sir E.
Molesworth, Sir W. Wickham, IL Ramsdell, Sir J.
Macaulay, T. B. Price W. Kninaird, A.
Lewis, Sir G. C. Medley, C. Portman, W.
Ellice, E. Kershaw, J. Denison, E.
Villiers, C. Crook, J. Howard, Hon. C.
Bouverie, Hon. E. P. Headlam, T. Ebrington, Viscount
Flayter, W. Acton, Joseph Ellice, E , jun.
Mulgrave,lrarl of Chambers, T. Marshall, W.
Hall, Sir Benjamin Brocklehurst, J. Lowe, It.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir G. Rich, IL Warner, E.
Russell, Lord J. Kirk, W. ' Traill, G.
Gibson, M. Baiter, W. Baring, H.
Cobden, R. Oliveira, B. Cobbett, J. M.
Bright, J. Duke, Sir J. Milton, Viscount
Horsman, E. Stanley, W. Dundas, F.
Hervey, Lord A. Mangles. R. Lindsay, C.
Castlerosse, Via. Biddulph, Col. R. M. Mills, T.
Hastie, Archti. Heywood, J. Cavendish, G. C.
Russell, H. Morris, D, Lemon, Sir C.
Laing, S. Cheetham. John Cranfurd, E. H. J.
Goodman, Sir G. Brotherton, J. Coffin, W.
Townshend, Capt. J. Ewart, J. Tynte, Col. C.
Pechell, Sir G. Phillimore, R. J. Cockburn, Sir A. J. E.
Ferguson, J. Fitzgerald, J. Moose!, W.
Scobell, Capt. Caulfield, Lt.-Col. J. Peel, F.
Hankey, T. Bonham-Carter, J. De Vere, S. E.
Matheson, A. Walmsley, Sir . Wells, W.
Matheson, Sir J. Russell, F. C. Scrope, G.
Bland, L. H. Collier, R. P. D Ingarvan, Viscount
Anderson,l4ir J. Ingham, R. Ricardo, S.
Beaumont, W. Forster, John Berkeley, Adm.
Hanmer, Sir John Ewart, W. Sheridan, R.
O'Brien, P. Wyvili. M. North, F.
_
Harcourt, G. G. Ricardo, 0. Berkeley, Hon. H.
Langston, J. H. Seymour, Lord Jermyn, Rt. He. Earl
Gregson, Samuel Cowan, C. Esmonde, J.
Seymour, D. Phillimore, J. G. Brand, II B. W.
Luce T. Vane, Lord IL Bethel', Sir R.
Mackinnon, W. Atherton, W.' Robartes, T.
Biggs, W. Milne-, W. M. E. Seymour, H.
Strickland, Sir G. Norreys, Sir D. Williams, W.
Tancred, H. Muntz, G. Price, Sir It.
Heard, J. Littleton, E. Peel, Sir R.
Paget, Lord A. Forster Charles Davie. Sir H. R. F.

Herbert, P. Waterpark, Lord • Grosvenor, Ld. it.
Duncan, George Clay, Sir W.. Bt. Wortley, J. S.
Adair, H. Layard, A. H. Duff, G.
Grace, 0. O'Flaherty, A. Marjoribanks, D.
Elliott, J. E. Rice, E. Cardwell, E.
Keogh, W. Bruce, H. A. Gordon, A.
lavendish, C. C. Walter, J.l Smith, M.
Scully. V_ Clifford, Lt.-Col. H. M. Osborne, R.
Lee, W. Alcock, T. Ball, J.
J. Scholefield, W. Johnstone, Sir J.
Foley, O'Brien,.
H. Hogg, Sir J. W. Fitzroy, Henry
Bulkeley. Sir R. Dent, J. - Reed, J.
Thornhill, W. Fitzwilliam, G. Ferguson, Sir R.
Shafto, R. Bell, J. Bruce, Lord E.
Grenfell, Charles Fortescue, C. S. Clinton. Lord R.
Dalrymple, Viscount Rumbold, C. Duncan, Viscount
Crossley, F. Goderlch, Viscount Wilkinson, W.
Freestnn, Colonel Smith, R. Berkeley, G.
Heneage, Geo. F. Baines, Rt, Hon. M. Wilson, J.
Chaplin, W. Stafford, A. Barnes, T.
Thornely, T.

EXTENSIVE RAILWAY ROBBERIES.