The National Register.
London, England, 1820-11-06 00:00:00

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THE NATIONAL RiGISTER % •4‘

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354
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•31,11perial
HOUSE oF LORDS.
MONDAY. OCI. 3(1.
Their Lordships as.embled tivs intoning at the meal hour,
10 o'clock, prayers having been reaiLand tiselliwnue covottud
at it quarter past len, Counsel were called in.
Lord ISA LCA ltltA i, previous to the Counsel resulling his
address, felt it his duty to co'l their Lortisiiips' Attention to
to at most itilLithinntory mid otangelime pant4r.:llll tl kitl, up-
pea. ed it, of newspaver report of Ur. vet,
and related w the curies! knee adloti,ql to in Lady Char-
lotte Lindin)'wevarniientious, and to the tenons. asngned for
her LadplliV, 'tannin; her Royal Ilighnes.'s serf ice. The
Noble Lord violet front the ohliery, and in a flue almo.t
wholly Math:Mole below the bar. We uhderstood him, how-
ever, testate, that he had the whole of the original cos,
revondence now in his hand, had, on hishnnnite.ivedectared •
there *ns w)! it tingle semenee in the whole corres.sondenCe
relating to this unhappy ruse. The Noble. Earl ulopeatered.
into a 'vludication of the rooduet end character of Colonel,
Lindsay, who, he said; was • gentleman of the strictest ho-
nour and intetrity.
LordLAUHINDALS was.eornineed no individual is
the House thought less highly of Colonel or Lady Lindsay
in cousequence of what had been stated. byhtbe Learned
Counsel.
Dr. Lusts nniole assured their Lordships, in what • be
said relative to the correspondence in question, in his
address to their Lordships, he Wended no reflections on
Colonel Lindsay, but had acted is the discharge of his
ditty. He had great pleasure in stating to then Lordships,
that he had since seen Lady Lindsay. anti • folly belittled
her Latyship's mind on the subject.
The Lord CHANCELLOR said, he lied 'heard no ob-
servations frdie the Learned Conseil, in his address en
this subject, Whidh hie duty to their Lordshipsuisd his
client did not call on hint to make. He trusted, the
eitestmsfence to which their Lordship's attestant. ,had
now been Mlle/ by the •Noble Earl, wield reader. the
public cantles low they gave credit to :the memarks of
the piper lu 'queetimfa as to wisatAmesedi heaser-their
hips.
Lord 11ALfiARRAS•expitssed• himself satisfied with
this ekpletiation, and • the it a hject .dropped.
The SoitcreoaOrtnntst., it a ganef before 11, re.
seined his a/dress/to thenloodeltipe, and took a review
aegredt length Of the eMileme gnats issuppeet of the lint
--41itriag his tpectirtieNtus emitineaily Interrupted by Mr. i
Detutual;•infolealledepue hint to read the•difereat parts of
theertlier.ff,'lnateadvstelserting •as proved what had not
heritable& hy the Omens, sash as they were. The Solicitor
Gefterarhaelag toenaded,
W. Itstoosuissusrai begged to be heard is support of
the peodectlea'of tee letters of liarestOmpteda, as evidence
for bee thilesty. .11Ie:effeet of them he said, whidd he to
charge Omptedai distinctly and eneepavoeally, with having
benumb/ daemon active agents lathe prostimstios—and
mestrilie least serepolnes as to the seems to .widell be had
reeoerse to farther its objects; they would show that he had.
employed a pence to seduce her blejestylinsemuits—that be
had asestielsed the IMAMS avome person he wished part lea-. •
larlyto gaisteme, with as Mierosimen, diem, /sc. —that he
knaves& the pereeo be that employed a premises/ a Shoe-
sitaddellare, if he sumeeded is the attatept. After the
strudel:elm:of sub letters, it eseald.dealstiess not be said,
that the' Barest Ouipteda wasu perms of whom to muck
bad hem Weed, sad se Nitta probed.
Tie krinneass.tiamsaatm—m, My Lords, this is must
irregallar."
'Nos LOUD CHANCELLOR.-.." Mr. Atturney-general,
lave yea any thing w say why these letters ought ant to be
received inseideace."
_ ThwAteosnar-4lientaaris-66 Ira, my Lords, if Mr..

mew/pm es mem.
Mr. Bienetaias saidiewould like te.bear whet. was the
ollireMeefeblisrbreruee isieed.
lie Ammo • w•Gartgari r, maid, ilia (lie was like map
cilia, bad e frost to-

_—.....oreimmerapplicamievawL come , _ the
opposite •sklaof the bar deltas these procesediagas Mr
sought rake nee of the sweet eaciammities with which. %Ir.
Ihmughset Midi:reeled ere applicatios made by him (the
Attoraey-Geueral, to their Lordships, and soy, "oar, my
Ur*, I afk If you, are 'Who( el al:oust of Justice 1"
Mr. Brougham could 'Mille 110 other "Alien iu tendering these
letters, than to have the opportunity of making such a speech
as alight ease ea the minds of their Leraships,:aud still
Leal so oa eke maudlin( the stabile, eitt,et doon,aut haves:-
sine nee So he peolaced by the real facts of the Baer. Their
Limedeligabeifielraady decided, that the verbal declarations
of a pasty (geld sot be received as eviden, e of thencu of
thatipassiowed,lnteers were outhing wore Ikea such circle,
rawer* twin that shapes Besides, their. Loegishies had yet
leatertenehein thine letters were addressed.
• blroliteeuamams-44 1 ebaltread 4lkm, if you please s
am ere 1 have no alietalue.--(1 laugh.)
• TheAstentese-bamasou said be was not to be caught
by the deasteetty of his beamed Fare. IL was so waiter
to whom the knees:were addreseed, our a lb/1‘ Ahoy contained,
wider aseistianweimeescouldtkey be received ag legal ea.
dame.
vs,, Mr. Baotion•ai disclaimed all inteation of taking any.
#‘• oudueatasemeoge. 11w Lear tied I ad _hest conapluilied ut
tenderise tkeletters' cad hien, that he had out bear deiatugle
of, thews Ila hod every desire to relieve his Li:award
Prised 's, cariosity. en this point. Thr first hates via. dated
Vic dap -of kielomary, 1819, and the second the oqi of
ileachmilMl9. The person to w bout they wire addressed
was tbe Direcior of the Police at Pesaitts an agent of the
Luise A/apartment et the Rout in (Stovers'''. mi. lu trotter-
hog. tintst titters, Ise (his. otrgbutn) Stud only pyrforunal
whit harviit cited to be a simple (tut).* hich he o*ed both
to thole Lordships and to lus 1111151.11011 i elicit ; but at the
settee U`, he was fur from letting pressed by any great
.sec(asiity. to do so. For though it would he vain fur hnu to
attempt to rival the loge:nay and ttuquetice dieptiyed by
his Learned Friends eu the other side of the bar, )es, lu us
far as respected arguateut, 115 as tat Ili resprcict costs( t
re-
frreue,— (Cries of " Order, cadet V' from their 6/1 usn
he was not alarmed.
The ATIORNEY-GSI4IIIA L said, balmiest object to the
cower a fuels Ise. Le/trawl Fs wool 111 411 x telltale. Ile us. re-
to tise reply of hi. Learned ine Solicitor and
himself, alit: out aqui.% the yucblium,op halite pitoluctiusi
ef t he letters.
Al!. ktuouGuivo.—" NI) Lordi, I an entitled, l conceive,
to vt.vo the uniteriolity of has kites to our deferate."
odigellibiii my Ltaractl

Pi* uuky et tsoll4l lu lugut 114 .d.s tiii 4'140 fi ."
)(04.134WWG.U.L1M...—,' A lid HO' lull 1 teel4,l (!tp Ills( th,aii
.10='% ing .111 tor miiteric,ll(3. The tXarr.ltl twistlti).no
p utteicd Pt Mime Icort it; I•ut Cut 4.itiuut vtry Crtqucot.

imerruptions from the Counsel for the Bill, to explain the
grouuds on which lie I:sought the letters accessary to the jut
detersuinatioa of her filajest)'s ease.
The ATTOItNKY 6Eh ERA L replied.
The LORD CHANCELLOR shortly gave his opinion
that the letters could not be received in evidence.

The Earl of CARNA ['WON said, whether the evidence
tendered was admissible according to the rules of 18VI or
not, was not the question fur their Lordships to consider ;
the evidence sensor the sante moors as stamped the whole
character of the proceedings. Their Lordships had been
told that there existed an agency, and that agency ails
now traced to an acerrtiiird Minister of the King uf Ha-
nover, who was also King /Willis country. Eividenee had
been tendered to wove that this Minister bad tampered
with the servant of herelllajetlY. who, PSI /KW°, if not so
tampered a ith might have been called to her 'swine,ii
was. fez the:e LW-44410E5* ibteble whether they mete sit-
ting as Peers of Elegtsist, eras the servants of the Gos ern
ineut of Hanover. if their Lordships were determined to
proceed with. this BilL, they .could not AD so with justice,
unless they sifted the conspiracy to the bottom.
The Duke of HAMILTON was glad of an opportneity
of declaring his sentiments on this subject. He would not
enter into any of the technical difficulties with which the
question might be surrounded t he only wished for matters
of fact, and for the eliciting of truth. If there was any
particular point ait;cli had beau sedulously kept out of
sight in this inquiry, it was the conduct of those who com-
posed the Milan commission. TM .Noble F.uti opposite
(Liverpool) hati'deelated, ou his own part, mid on that of
his !Majesty's Ministers,. that they had given ao authority
in this business to auy foreign ianister. This was a Bill
of Pain* and Penalties, and as suck he would enter his
pretest against it, since it was extra-constitutional, stud
totally unnecessary. If, then, their Lordships wished to
discover the truth, they most not be bound by technicali-
ties or forced analogies. To do justice in the present case,
their Lordships must receive the letters. This was- his
irm conviction, and he would take the sense of the.Hease
open it. • The Nubile Duke concluded by/mooring, "Thal
the letters be received as evidence." •
Earl GREY agreed with his Noble Primed as to every
thing that halted said against a Bill of Painaand Penni!
tifig a measure only :o be resorted to iu cases of the.,
greatest necessity., and where the ordinary modes of pro-
ceeding diJ not apply. That no such case existed in the
present instauce, he (Earl Grey) had declared before
these proceedings commenced. Their Lordships had
unfortunately thought otherwise, and having ..reed to
proceed by a Differ Alin. and Penalties, between 441 mod
1.0 days had been engaged in hearing the evidence on.
both sides. At the commencement it was agreed, that

although their Lordships were not tittered by the Piles of
law, yet.that their proceedings should be. maimed by
those rules as much as.possible. Os this priaciple they
had hitherto proceeded; mid the questioaaow was, ehe.
User, hi the lute/age of the.procertling, they should *bay-
don it / He agreed with tha Learned Lord on the
Woolsack, that according to the rules of law the letters
could not be received. Were they, then, of sufficient
Importance to induce their Lordships to deviate frous
those rules ? His Noble Friend had said, the conspiracy
should be inquired iuto. He agreed with him, but this
was not the time. Ou these grounds he should vote against
the Went ion.

•The Earl of CARNARVONe ontanded that their Lord-
ships were not sitting as Judges only, but, as Legislators,
cad in that capacity they had nothing to do with rules of
taw. As Pecos of Parliament they were bound to go into
the (idlest inquiry, for they were nut placed like a Jetty,
10 give a verdict of Guilty or Not Guilty. He could not,
as a Peer of thereat's', give that horrible vote against the
Queen which he feared some were disposed to give, while
the slightest circumstance In her favour remained Goad-
matted as evidence. He conjured their Lordships not to
forget that they were Peers of Parliament, that the eyes
bf the-coantry and the world were upon them, and that •
they must not shrink front doing that justice which wee
expected at their hands.
. East GROSVENOR was of opinion, that the examine-
lion into the conspiracy was not allowed, they could Dot
new go into that partial view ;suit which the letters wend
afford.
Lord HOLLAND thought the admissiom or Abase letters
now would lead 10 all inquir; which, though incomplete,
might be almost intermitted,. His reason, and his sole
reason, ir not receiving them, was, that he was deter-
mined to vote against the Bill in every stage; bat as he
did not think that any man could give an honest vote for
it, unless he was• propose/Ai examine hitp every stream-
stance that was brought before their Lordships, is every
stage of the proceeding—(bear)---he wanted no inquiry
.into the conduce orHanoverian Ministers, he-email vote
against the BM.; bet those. who were .preposod Ars vote
tor it should. see whether the evidemee ;hut he fairly
procured or not.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN was against receiving•
the letters; he thought it desirable that the conspiracy
should be inveuigated, hot he did not think grounds bird
been found, for deviating front Ike rules to whisk their'
' Lordships had hitherto adhered. ft bad been' declared,
that evidence of a conspiracy *Mold mirk! inquirettinto,
. and iiko (lie put it hypetlietically)that theyehould exclude
all evident e ut a coeuter4iinspiijitcY." like adhering to
the rules of law had souse inconvenience, but it was •the
inconvenience which attached to site whole of these pro-
crackup 4 and lie trusted, when their Lordships came to
•,
deride,akat the Mauritius rein/nags would have the be-
nefit of it.
. The House then divided on the Duke of Hamilton's
within, when the numbers were—
Contents • l6
Non-Lositeuts l ib
Majority against the motion—ln
It being four o'clock, their Lordships adjourned till
Thursday neat.
/Hunan* e, Nov. Y.
The LORD CH ANCLLLOK his seat on the Wool-
Rile kIS tew assiontes before ten o'etued. Prayers were read
• fly the Bishop of .41ristol, atter winch the lest was called
Lord GAGE moved that she standing order of she House,
relative Si, Use method of voting, should he read. This
being dune,
Lind lIOLLASD slid, the reguldr Anode of proceeding
was 11.1.1i.,61.44 to he edlled user at tic laUlt, *lieu each
*'err 11,4 a 41111 allaoCla .10 ll.a mane, viol d. i:lide, vole,
c 151,1554 ur ..... PCOOOIII4 etantlitogr tio uncovered ; the
Wud tinter( liur latent deciatt. how it. the coestiois
11,,, been derided, .111(1 it stay Peer is disitti•lfed, the Haute
tad) Alt:u Ut Ith

The Order of Ile Hay was t hest mom'.
Tee LORD CHANCELLOR—a` My Lords, the question
now about to be discussed by your Lordships, nutty ithitand.
ing all the: has beat, said un in.! subject, is, whether this Bill
shall or *hull out be read a second time? I conceive, sic-
entitling lu the ordinary practice of the House, this is else
only point fur your LO. (I.llip,' consideration. lit the ordi.
nary course of proceedisig on Bills somewhat raseinblin,t this,
mean Bills of Uivosca—praauf of the allegation contained
in the Bill is first made, and it' time individual occupy the
woulsnck is of opinion that the facts have been proved, and
other Lards ore of a contrary opiiii 0000 thirst a debate arisen
upon it. Upun lonising into the precedents of your Lord-
ships' HOUK., you may be es ~red, beyond all doubt, that
islikoogto the prealablis of the. Hyll be probed before
second leading, it is competent for the House to MM."' tlae
soul that has been done is issis• J !sibtlY casts.
The nimbi., it t deems It may even introduce a

.
1143W.13/11111041.4..hu1.41, it say opittiou. ile.a no alteration of
the preamble, ur the aliegatioos, can heisades. iodevi for the
porpoise of mitigating them. to addressing your Lordship
on this subject, I can assure you, with ilw utmost sincerity,
tbat nothing whatever would induce Inc to trouble.yoe, did
Coot fall thitt I could, nog at allavoid without.* otiretic4iou
of my.publie duty. I would not havestaken any part in this
enquiry did uot a sense of duty impel me; and I declare to •
Clod. Ido it with the utmost pain and reluctance. I say no.
sad rewrote for this Bill unless he thinks the substautoit
phrased the preamble proved; and unless I think Ilse adul-
tetousiotercuto.e has been proved, I caonot coincientiontirly
give illy vote for it. Id giviiig my opluion, I shall not deem
Il necessary Po examine the evidence muchirt. detail. My
duty is mit to sum up, but wily to state say opinion., We
era all Jodges, all Jurors, and &root proced oaths pried-
oißtoof olatteiug up ibeevidence, but forenumenicatiae to
to each other our °Oboes and discussing. the same, Much
has been said on the subject of a Bill of,ffitiesaod Ilenabies,
and it has been often repealed that they can oily, be joriiileil
what the safety of theeosairy minims that they should be
resorted to. liat.aut logo fifirtherb.ack than the itreolrOion,
there have been slime that period several Bills of Pains and
Penalties, where uo such necessity existed. 1 -bare Mated
more. than once, in the course of these prooeediags, that a
Bill of Pains ad Penalties, ii'. properly conducted, is more
Livourable,—(l do nut melte any observation on im conk.
toitemslor micoastitatiorsal character)—to the accused. I
swan if it b proceeded in according to the roles of law sod
evidence. In proceeding by Impeachoseo. the .House of
Common decides ea infante evidence, wean simile vote
c is decide whether aolutpeaehmeat shall take place or not.
and if the House so decide, it l'..s no remedy io itself. IQ a
Bill of Pains and Peualties, examinations take dace on
both sides of the gentled, and in both Houses, so that ass
erroctosunitted out day may be rectified the 'meta But
it has beeu.said we are submitting the judgment of, this
House to Ink of the House of Commons; this is the case in
all Bills of;Orverce.. It bad been made another cause of
complaint, that her kiejesty had sot been furnished with a
specification of the charges, and a list of the witunses. But
how could the charges be more effectually furnished, thaw
by producing them at the bar aid then. postponing the
defence tiU arch period as die defendant herself chose! He
admitted. as be bad before, io the case of Morelli, admitted,.
abet rasa advaatagea are to be !gained by an, immediate
crammaamiaatioso of witnesses; but these were far more
thaticounterbillabeed by the istwirobloY of ad.oolttafia given
to the defendant by such postpoonneatmf OM defence. the
House -were also bound to keen is remembrance that lm-
pertain principle of British jarispeadeace, that, 313 every
case of accusation, that accusation was no proof of guilt;
that tile party may be innocent' and ongbt to be held to be
innocent, until clearly proved to begulity. Their Lordships
weeld, therefore, dans. every prepusessiorittoto their minds.
and judge of the case solely from the evideacq before them.
lie adtualud that there might have been—that their Lurd-
ships might take it as his opinion that there 'had been—ei
much greater facility is the producible of. 'banns Iw. the
prusecutios than in suppurt of the defence. (If that circum-
stance tbe ;eased party ought, of coif:rept') have the benefit.
He admitted also that there might Wive .been corrupt en-
deavours toprocure evidence, and that was another circuits.
stance of which the accused ought deabtleas to bare the
benefit, not-only as regarded the witnesses who were the
objects of that corruptios, bet as rwrded others, on whom
It might throw a reasonable suspicion. lie had, in forming
his owl opinion, given all these coosideralseas their full
weight.—'fie Way in which their Lordships should. look at
' the gouda Mekthist—Whethsr, loyir.s. aside all the testi-
, mossy lbw( could be suspected, and. taking together the
evidence which was unsuspected on the part of the prosecu-
tion, nd the testimony in answer' with the negative
evidence, se west of evidence, which might stave been
ethnic/a—does* or does it sot support the ioMegatioo of an
mdukeron bitercoune baring existed between her Majesty
and Bergamo f Belted so put the ease to himself, and it did
appear to `ham—be was sorry to say it, but be could draw no
other conclusion, than that—thers kul ben an noilierna
!Winne', henna Aar • sad Bergami. (Soong marks
odeeasatirm throughout the House.). His Lordship did not
cent although the whole Evidence of Majocci and Monson
were diseardetis he world only as their Lordship*
to .accompany bias while be took a abort survey lot the
circumstances attending her Majesty's voyage to the Holy
Land. The Learned Lord then took a rommary review of
the evidence, hut we regret to state, that fries the partiality
of it, k bespoke much more of the Minister o 1 the Crown
than the nobieseeddigaified Judge. His Lordship atmeluded
by sayiug—sue word mere and he should have t1414.C. As to
w hat bad passed out of doors, be should lake no notice of
that, for he mum be supposed to know *tithing about it.—
But whatever homight sheik of what was said, he shoal&
conscientiously do his duty. He bad heard nom that bar
what it had given him great sorrow to hear—something Ike
a threat to their Lordships—(Hear)—Whatever might be
the opanonotoet of doors, he would take upua bias to sitv,
• that the conduct he alluded to, was never conivieut with.the
duty of an Advocate, and the threat ought to bare so elii,ct
upon the dec6itui of their Lordships ! --( Hear, hear.)—They
stood there to protect the liberty, the character, mud the
lives of their fellow subjects, and he would not esitate to
say to throe, " lie just mid fear vast." They would do their
duty, and leave the rest to the *adorn and justice of God I
Lt:til EKGS INE agreed with the Noble and Learned
ard or the worolsack, that their Lordships ought to come
to the discussiou with temper and fi.rioness, that they
should not suffer themselves to be influenced by any extra-
IleOlts (Wises, bat that they should be jest awl fear nut !
lie would go Mill farther, and say that their Lordships
should be prepared to do justice at nay hazard, sod to
o adapt, AA tic rule of their caninet, fiat justitia runt el$110111!
—He (Land Erskine) did nut know how to disclia" Fe his
duty letter to then Lordships 'lbw ..tv laying his breast
Opt-II 3t3 t :01:11 and mating h!, vie .;...13 ..,.. ;.r•, , I,','. a'' •