The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, L

thetei
-,,,e,---„......—_____-
oil the?raPh were intercepted by the Telegraph company
Purpose.waY to the papers, and used by them for their.own
graph Co Nov, the principle on which she Electric Tele-
desnat")°VanY had alwa been conducted was that every
tbri ch in to them was delivered to the person to
hrow it was addressed, without any one, except the clerk
soaugh whose hands it passed, being aware of its contents.
PU01:111:1. autY intelligence, received in any manner, was.
tea h
th i the newevapeits it e asitninediately transmit-
the
_Y e Electric Telegraph Company to every part of
tile country. When the list of the killed and woueded at
an el'es7le of the Alma arrived in this country, before half
eipaai 11 it was transmitted by the telegraph to every prin
GI,
e'°wma in the United Kingdom—to Aberdeen and
the
ot:ron the one hand, and to Plymouth and Exeter on
alarm o ; and he should certainly look with very great
sae, to 'lithe Passing of any law to prevent the transinise
interest, Perts of the country of news of such universal
copy of The Electric Telegraph Company purchased a
corded,
..'ne Times, in which such intelligence was re-
countand they telegraphed it down to eeery town in the
telegr?ll but, if they were not to do that, if there were no
hours
_Pa , then the Times would be sent down five or six
poste,i4ter, and the article itself would be extracted
.and
jut the Exchange rooms, or wherever the place might
had eElletY• in the same manner as it wo.ulti have beam
only difference
Telegraph Company transmitted. it. The
hours eece was that the public saw the intelligence some
to
thebefore they otherwise would do, and the injury done
and the apera was the same ; it was neither more nor less,
telee,e Puldic enjoyed all ,he benefit of the transmitting by
patitay tailtmh. It mete a distinct rule with the Telegraph Cow-
Prete at
nothing should be transmitted that had not been
takeollud- printed in the newspapers. The company did not
itheir bilityoftranstnittinganythieg
l'ae_ti.luair Own authority. but, as had been explaimel by the
oaiuttett member for Manchester, they stated that they trans-
ietelli, re the Times, the Post, or the Herald certain
know i!tnce of great interest which the public ought to
then if once- He thought that the House ought to pause,
the the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not set them
anvnioille °fPausing'
before they
passed any such law as
retetist _ vet lit i the present clause. It was not tor the in-
of the the telegraphthat this clause should not
Pass jute Icompany
clause aw; he as a public man should vote against the
the
tier° Telegraph Company was concerned, nothing could be
cease advantageous than that this clause shot& pass, be-
kereettePublic must have intelligence, and- if one corn
oi aa t wanted the prices of «h eat at London or Dant-
c, others al
allowed t so must have ii, and if the company were not
take whit o transmit from the Times the prices current, to
ich, of
tiraey •
au, under the present clause would be
aye t:„T such case each individuel merchant wrould
would , transmit a private message for the prices. This
pang 1°) of great advantage to the Telegraph Com-
inter; ilt
, a great disadvantage to the
doncommerial
share •a of the country. (Hear, hear.) He di. ot
flame" a the alarm of the member for 'takingOldham cea that he could not understand why the
wap off rendered copyright protection necessary now if it
titer.ot necessary before. They had been told by the Soli-
be_
oyeeneral that Manchester would be flooded by a num-
par t small newspapers containing the news of the London
haters ; but these small newspapers could not afford to
eettititelligence transmitted through the telegraph ; they
laus', only take it from the Manchester papers, which
atm sfroas at their intelligence at some cos
s,
Would bra them, at third, not first hand, the cheap p• per
hon.— e "liged to take their intelligence. But when 1 e
aataainsernber for Oldham, in these days of penny encyc oe-
7p'etra and cheap publications, told them, that because
Pa era . were cheap, they must deteriorate the press of _
_ir.
iti4neart7, and that their articles must be injurious,. he (M. •
the, "°) had mistaken the bon. gentleman's liberality in
. .e matters, for he did not think cheapness, compatible
iwalgththutility,
, , (Hear.) He (Mr. Ricardo), so far from think-
cheaes" this measure would render the periodical papers
and injurious to the morals of the people, be-
lievedtie
el.not,hing would tend more to elevate their. .mpraltso.
betwe believed, moreover, that the public could discriminate
beet, et! what was good and what was had. They wered
to
reaeuges of what they ought or ought not to bu an
R and it was not forthis house to decide for theta.
i r' EENTINCK said that the Solicitor-General, speak-
illige with more candour than courtesy, had disposed of all
hoosa_rguments clan en his (Mr. Bentinck's) side ofmtehree
eagainst these, by stating that `
they vltere
of the
imisrepresentations which gentlemen on this side.
oase delighted to indulge in." Without troubling the
th ale with a re mtition of these arguments, be would tell
the Solicitor-General that it was he who had misrepresented
h;rarguments used on his (Mr. Bentinck's), F3i e of the
th e• The Solicitor-General had also stated that part of
e "jut .
one
in r(11 administration of justice must be put on side,
Lig%legal
to carry out this clause. his, coming from so
ugh a legal authorit was a conclusive argument against
aout'snse, and after such an admission there could belittle
m t as to how the committee would deal with it.
, teetra.33lllGHT observed that the hon. member for Pon-
ti -e" nut, in his speech, raised so many puzzling ques-
°o6 for the Government that he was afraid his bon. friend
Rated ....
e, , so coax them to try some other scheme, and he
(1 r`'llght) had risen to express an opicion that. as the
fu°l-;:jananeot hail already so many puzzling questions be
aelva'aemt, they had better not unnecessarily involvteattheifisl
them-
Per this. (Laughter.) The house ageeedithh,
paper-
maki"e who carried on, or were connected
h ht bwe remunera.-
tis, ng, should do 1110
bull
a way whice wou .
e to th
•did' t follow that it should be
Made r emselves but it no
embarrassing as the pre-
soot. emunerative by a clause so
vhic of all nthers,
had , (Hear.) If they took the paper N
which e-
pe e'utme Most t i Ite intelligence, .
- -tmaed the ° c rcu 3 •'t and which of all
other
\vas, from e lareest sums to obtin i ,
'information, most liable to
pima the value of its as no necessity
for Y, the house would find that there
forwyears the most
pre;tclanse oft leis kind, for it hadt baetenanynumber of men
coultialla'l° business speculatien le
to
the Times. It
hao e aye followed. He alluded
eo oo reason to complain
ofthis
a leader to complain
replai
°f R nt, but used this question as
At this
tootecieltething else which might be a i grievance.
y if there hail been
any obu, with the Times at 5d.,
surely, if
been brought lit
at 21 'lnce of success, a paper could
all that one de-
sir d'' Paying the stamp and containing
e to . not be established,
I see • but such a paper could
(al B • Alt)
80(-- coula not •restrict the sale of the Times. He _ r. r.i.o
zeratia from ot
the Times till. he
could not obtain
, heb(i.a Manchester
"me St a -I`4lgby or Wolverton, and when in to.wn7, a•els2i.lingi.
ca'el • "alnes's-street he could not obtain it tin or
"Ilene' 4'l oue day 'when he sent from his club to bnyoude
tbath "coder toldthe boy he could not get a copy, a.n
Iler, e woula • him is. for every copy he could ootain.
.tin,,, „glse
brineing news from all
1) o th,:ao house had a paper
ti leaffroito World, and nothing had
'hitherto withheld
and communica-
-I°' Publistrating its leading articles
.o
spt::Pa Ta•slang them in a paper at 2d., and paying thea.
enro;,' ',tit nth "ad indeed been attempted by
severalldplis
pa-
but to tat failed—one of them had
ebseen
an (la‘ughteta—
le d ; totillea
ceeLlexest
ktonotivh T
what they were going
"o•le°4 Dodd7 tn d tract to obtain t t 1
to a,
.of tb. „,. a e a con
) —so that they were going
vela tb.':: 14.tmes—(lan,hter .
more senses than one.
paeee . Beeata of the Times vi
ma__ days, and
aefievu if it came out, did not last for nY
to point
°tit an ins Is hoe. friend the member for Oldham.
the kind hail suc-
ceededance in whice an attempt of .
the
America They had he dgreat deal said about
o-
il pa
11.
a 1 found that when ge
arse,pen, and he general y
this, were in a
difficult as to what they should
Asamyer
eau queation they always had a kick at the -a
coltataaPetm ; tie wee sorry that he had not with bins
300
Person.' 48 had at home containing, a list ofThey
had
to eoaseltployecl on the New York Tribune. ,
tin.
Plalarght in America, and they never beard any c,
ata o" °f
piracy from the New York Herald, the Courier,dl
sin her Am 'the whole thing was a eu-
n ma (amen papers
han'd . People liked. to buy what they wanted at first
this this was so in America, and would be the samet
u
in
tot, tr untry, (Rear.) The piracy question had beengo
membersp
of tbe,Uloment for the purpose of preventing
bill
in b 18
°°llse from looking with favour on the brought
introduced the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or that which was
for (9scineed by his predecessor the right hon. member
address" xford University. The last time he (Mr. Bright)
fromd the house on this subject, he read a paragraph
h(tti'lae Globe, copied from a Caaebridge paper, iy
title those
gentlemen 4 the subject of piracy, Sir it stated t
repeal of
thet who had been most concerned in the
.roep
in thilllP were preparing to bring out a paper,
and engageby i-
fere is beicaniming kind of business, an _ _
om.
her:ce charged him (Mr. Bright) and honourable
van who sat near him with this intention. The paragraph
134°64
in aprominent part of the paper, and every body
coald see the lads
in the mind of the
tetia_ . gnation which existed
15_, u. if the Globe had a mind as to the question piracy,
of
out to
the he took the liberty on that occasion of pointing
Diver-
o ° house that the Globe was the most expeditious, u
This
al, and incessant pirate they had in this country._
oba_._
.. „
the Globe al-
to "", it passed and carried, world suppress • gether : and what did the Globe soy when it was pro-
-Idi-
f ? It looked at the question then from an entire paper
area point of view. (Hear, and a laugh.) That
t
Published a leadin article against this clause infint
sealer(
before and more logical than anything it had. i 1
ely
in favour of such a provision, showing conclusie
that the clause would be mast injurious, and if it were
operative, most unjust. The Solicitor-General had
blaa-ac'e, some allusion to piracy in the city of Manchester,
e-' the Times o lthat morning hail an article in which
aaraeat indigtestion was evinced at a threepenny paperthere
s;"`„lch Published news appearing in the Times. That piper
,:es,n•hout the size of the Globe, arid would no doubt e
t"rished at a lower price when the stamp was abolishedu;
u" he would undertake to say, there was no person con
netted with the Times who would declare that onesiooeo.
• Copy of that journal the less was sold in Manchester. in
hquence of these miller papers which
took portions of its
had the
;ewe. It so happened that the paper. in questionbefore it
news of the battle of the Alma just one day
Ras the Manchester
Published in London, and
Guardian, the Manchester Examiner, the Leeds Mereury
a" had Papers of that class frequently d
very
ener-
getic the
and. able coirespondents in some portions
continent, so that it did not follow that because early news
therefore,
e as Published in Manchester it must necessari y
f "iitelligence
ae taken limn the London papers. A piece o 1
come direct
from in the Manchester press might have
thatin
-rotn 'Vienna might be almost the same as
though in
the Times ,;
and was the Times to be armed with power to
send down to Manchester, and drag these
respectable
.. editors before two justices of the peace? The wholethoqudeiss:
n had been torn to pieces, and shattered by the
ctuestons which had taken plaee that evening, and
with hoped
the
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would agree
bill
''euse, and the house would agree with him, that the
Hear.)
:should pass as ithout any of these obnoxious clauses.
_( .
, The Ca aaNCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIr-1- ePPre
'lend there in no doubt that, by the law as it at present..fla
stands, nevrepapers do enjpy a copyright for the ortei
I 1
articles and other paragraphs inserted by them- In law,
..,
conceive, it; makes no difference whether a publication t
sunny
100 ;or appears with the name of the author. It is
a new (loot ,nine—new to me at least—which I have heard
Preached t o-night, that it is necessary, in order to enjoy a
copyright' that the name of the author should appear.
Take, for instance, the case of an encyclopm lie. An en-
°YeloPmrl'er. publishing anonymous articles unquestionably
elmi°3's the same copyright as a poem, a history or an ori-
eine'
i„ vee rk published with the name of the author. (Hear.)
,'.' nas however, been found in practice that the greateet
uifficulta_es exist in enforcing the legal claim to copyright
vi bleb ,1 newspaper enjoys. A newspaper proprietor can
ti.eith r , in effect, apply to a court of equity for en in) tine-
leen to prevent the publication of an article, when that
Valle %tams is so ephemeral, nor can he, with any proles-
anttY of success, enter an action for damages. In intro-
cir q a measure, therefore, by which the number of
?"e,_‘l 1 newspapers would be largely augmented, it was felt
'° Pc a matter of common justice to the proprietors of ex-
istitr r
newspapers to give them an effectual remedy by
• Wbic h their present rights might be enforced. 'W'ith that
NI cv 1 the clause now under the consideration of the corn-
nai a tee was prepared and submitted to them, as it WAR
PI Light but just to guard the rights and interests of exist-
"' g newspapers. But, sir, after the manner in whieb that
Pm oposition has been received on both sides, I do not con-
-6i der it is incumbent upon me to press the matter farther,
a. ad I shall not, therefore, press the clause upen the corn-
la tittee. (Cheers.) The object which I had in view was,
tm tat this question shoul.l be fairly considered by the com-
ra ittee that they might see what was the existing state of
til ii law' , and how far it met the circumstance" of the case.

If they believe that there is no danger of considerable
abuse, and if they prefer to wait until the effect of the pre-
sent measure has been felt and developed in practice, so as
to see whether any additional remedies are needed, I can
make no objection to that course, and therefore I shall not
think it necessary to press this clause. (Hear; hear.)
Mr. DISRA.ELI—I am very glad to hear the right hon.
gentleman has come to that conclusion. He has told us
that as the law now stands newspapers have a right to
copyright. 'No doubt there are many rights which exist
at present, but which are never asserted. There is the
right of free warren, for instance. (Hear, ant a laugh.)
I know a great mrny individuals who possess that right;
but I don't suppose there is anyone who would exercise it.
The hon. member for Manchester has spoken of our press
as compared with the American press and has alluded to
the fears of those who apprehend that very injurious con-
sequences are about to ensue to our press. Now, I believe
myself that the tendency of this alteration in the law is to
assimilate the press of this country to the American press:
The tone of the American press is not occasioned by laws_
of this kind, but that tone is lower than the tone of the.
English press because it is the press of a younger country
—(hear. hear)—and, therefore, there are many influences
at work in England which have elevated, and which will
raise for a considerable time, the tone of the English preit,
because that tendency is to lower its enterprise, the
amount of capital invested in it, and the degree of talent
enlisted in the exercise of its functions. We have, how-
over, at the present moment. opportunities of counter-
acting to a certain degree what we may consider the in-
jurious effects of the proposition of the Government in
this particular case. I think we are bound, if we do not
admit a copyright—and lam myself opposed to any such
admission, because I think that, in the first place, it is
un a great scale impossible, and in every respect vexation.;
—I say' I think we pre bound to facilitate as much as
possible the competition of the newspaper which invests
and btuploys a larger capital, and which engages a
gra iter amount of talent than all those journals which
are in a very different 'and contrary position. (Hear.)
My own opinion is, that the proposition of the Times
newspaper, which has been alluded to this evening by
one or two members in a certain spirit of derision, is a
just and sound proposition ; and if you say that you' will
give no copyright to a newspaper at present existing, you
are bound to facilitate in every possible manner its means
of competition with all other journals which may pirate its
news and its intellect. ' At the proper time, therefore, I
shall support that amendment which will propose that
newspapers should circulate by the post without any limi-
tation of weight. I think, sander these circumstances, you
will be able to remove to some extent the injustice which
must necessarily be committed, and which no one can doubt
in theory exists as regards the newspaper which invests
the,
pitai and engages talent, when placed in opposition to
journal whic does neither the one nor the other. But,
practically, will it happen, that an established London
newspaper existing on thd present scale wilt suffer by this
kind of competition ? I doubt it. At the present mo-
ment (as has been remarked almost to' surplusage in this
discussion) the system of piracy exists. At your club you
may receive information of what occurs in this house this
very ()venir,. You can get the news of the debate there,
but does that preventyou from taking in the morning pa-
per which gives you that debate more at length and more
authentically ? The same principle occurs when you come
to compare the circumstences of a distant town withe
those
of the metropolis. The public will always go to th foun-
tain head. There is no possibility by any piracy, or by
cribbing in thecontemptible mode in which all these forms
of larceny are executed, of your competing with the origi-
nal article --that which appeals to your sentiment, your
reason, and your sense of utility in a thousand ways which
the stokes articles fail to do. , And I feel persueded that
we shall not in the long rutloWer the tone of English
journalism provided we study,-",by, every possible meas, to
facilitate the communication of intelligence. lat
as
it iked
to give a copyright in news.. Now, my idea is, that s
my duty to facilitate the communication of intelligence,
and, in order to facilitate the communication of intelli-
gence, I must not give a copyright in news, but rather
devise some mole by which intelligence can be circu-
lated, so that the largest number of peOple in the country
can become acquainted with it. ' An hon. gentleman, anti-
cipating that the principle of copyright in newspaper liter-
ature might be conceded, his ventured. to maintain that
the only condition on which that prieciple ought to be
conceded is, that uo copyright Sheuld be allowed in the
case of anonymous literary compositions. By the preseht
law of England we do not in point of fact give a copy-
right to au anonymous writer, because; it is the posses sor
by
of a copyright and not the creator of a: copyright, who
our laws possesses a vested right in the composition. (Hear,
bear.) lam far from, inclined to throw any discourage-
went upon the proposition of my noble friend the member
for Northumberland ; imeteed I have more than once had
the pleasure of conversing with him on the subject. No
dots tit there is something that recommends itself to every ,
manly mind in the principle that every one should be re-
sponsible for the seutimens he expresses, but if you come
to practies, it is very doubtful whether you will be sable to
secure that result. (Hear.) What law can you devise by
which you can secure that the writer of a leading article
in a journal should certainly be known to every one who
reeds that article? You may pass• a law making it incum-
bent that a name shall be signed to each article in a news-
paper ; but what name will appear ? (Hear, hoer.) How
can you secure that it will be the name of the writer ?
No doubt there are circumstances under which such a law
would increase the authority of the press. The writer who
bears anilinstrioas name would not hesitate to sign it, and
thus increase the influence of the article and the circula-
tion of the journal ; but the writer who does not
come bear an
I
illustrious name, though he may sign one that Bayoube
celebrated, will hesitate imfore he signs it ; an y may
have one, formal and technical, but utterly inoperative ,
for the purpose you require, and the result will be far
from bringing under your scrutiny and supervision the
names of those you suspect or wish to become acquainted I
with. My noble friend has spoken to-night, of the
calumnies of the public journals of this country. My i
noble friend thought himself justified, no doubt, in
the remarks he made, from cortein circumstances which ,
may be fresh on his mind and memery ; but I think, ,
on -the whole, that my noble friend expressed an
opinion that cannot be justified with regard to the netvs-
pepers of this country. That they may be arrogent, th
this at ,
they may employ the liberty which, fortunately for
country they possess, in a mar ner which seine of us m my
often regret, is very possible ; but that the general tendency
of their labours is to maintain the public spirit of the
country and to guard and uphold the public liberties, I
think no impartial person can fora moment doubt. (Hear.)
Several hon. members, and particularly an hon. gentleman
opposite, have refered to-night to an anonymous writing.
Why, sir, anonymous writing is not the exception, but it
is the rule of the literature of this country. It seses not
:apply to political literature el me, but it applies, on tkie
contrary, to 'the whole of the literature of the country.
Who wrote " Thom is a Kemnpis ?" Nobody km ewe. Who
wrote the " Whole Duty of Man ?" Now, there is a book
which every one of us ought to have sta lied—(a laugh)
which for generations our predecessors have sty. ded—ansi
which has had more editions than any book in the world,
and which is not a scandalous book, a libellhus book, or a
political book, but which is an anonymous 000 k. (Hear)
[ noticed some anonymous works that occurred topee when
the hon. gentleman was speaking, and leaving t higher
order of literature—the religious literature—" Thomas a
Kempis" and the "While Duty of Man," let rite ask who
was the author of " Waverley ?' An anonymous writer.
Who was the author of " Rubinson Crusoe?" An option oy-
f
mous writer. Who was the author of
" A Vindicat
Natural Society?" "Why, he was one
,who became after-
wards one of the most brilliant ornaents of this house, t o
whom we are always referring as -them most eloquent of ora-
tors, the most profound of sages, and if we refer to him as
a statesman it is only to abuse the Whigs for not having
pieced him in the Cabinet. I mean Mr. Burke. What
are the most brilliant performances of political literature ?•
What are those works that were writtenby one who in this •
house occupiedthehigheet post, whose name
tra will ever be
lives
re-
remembered, and whose oratory, though a dition,
in the memory of the nation—l mean Lord Bolingbroke.
Whatare Lord Boliugbroke's works? All those works which
We are continually quoting are anonym- ins. When told of
anonymous writing, I referred naturally to the most bril-
liant and permanent, creations of the imagination—and I
find that the finest .poem intim English language, if for a
moment we forget Shakepere—the " Essay
ll on Maneref " waso
an anonymous work. (Hear, hear.) Reay, th
when we remember those instances which
have havd re e d
only
oth this
moment occurred to me,and recall the ne
examples which might be referred Breit is too absurd,
ten
speaking of anonymous writing, yto appeal
al letters
o
leading articles of a newspaper, or to the politic
to which the hon. gentleman has referred. (Hear.) I
cannot help thinking that in effecting a vary great change,
which in its origieal conception I believe to haVe. been
just, but which, as applied by the present Government,
seems to me to be uncertain, cumbrous, and unsatisfac-
tory, we have in this instance to combat and meet a diffi-
culty which it is in vain for us to cope with. We cannot
give to the rumour, or to the whisper of the day or of the
hour, even if authentic, the same permanent privileg
those
es
which we avoull give t an epic poem or to one ,of
histories which are .possessions for ever. We are bound to
give to the communication of intelligence the utmost faci-
lities which the law will permit, and the provisions of
this bill, which are to limit and restrict the circulation of
newspapers or works, on which so much intelligence is ex-
pended, so much talent employed, and so much capital
used—the at, ernirts to restrict the pi ivileges of the post-
office according to the weight of the paper, by singling out
the particular qualities which make it interesting to the
multitude are, I think, not to be tolerated. But while you
assert that all the news a journal 'circulates, all the
charms of thought or expression it may diffuse, cannot
have that miserable privilege and monopoly of at few hours
rs
which has been suggested, while yop assert at
would be incompatible with our civilisetion and the age
and manners in which we live, at the same time it is
rn-
tifi-
tolerable and not to be endured that we should blr ar
cial restrictions hamper the circulation ofintelligence. Let
me impress upon the committee that it is our interest that
the newspapers in this country should be supported by
the capital and fed by the intelligence of the country, be-
cause it is only by this mode that we can retain the supe-
riority of the English press, and maintain that superiority
overthe American newspapers to which the hon. gentle-
man has referred. (Chews.) • •
that
Lord LOVAINE rose to explain be had not pro-
posed to compel the authors of any articles, except those
who claimed the light which would be- conferred by the
present clause, to sign their names. No man was more
ready than himself to acknowledge the talent whi
was
ih was
displayed by the writers in the public press, but t
the inaxim of English law that no Mall could have a
right
in another's wrong, mind upon that principle lee thoughht
that leading articles in a newspaper which contained libel-
lous matter upon individuals ought not to come within
the protection of time law.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIHORE did not think tha th" Essay
on Man," referred to by the right hon. gen donen oppo-
site, was published anonymously, and as to "Thomas a
Kempis," it was written by Tivoris a Kempis, the author
of another treatise entitled De Imitation() Christi.
Mr. DISRAELI was sorry that the hon. and learned
geutlemon disagreed from him.bmit ho had in his possession
a copy of the first edition of the " Essay on Man," and he
could state that it was published anonymously. Who
Thomas a Kempis was he the no one had ever kno en,
bet if the hon. and learned gentleman could inform him he
woeld be notch obliged for the information.
Oise was then negatived.
ES rose to move a clause enacting
"thatt every
peT3rithoret.liMcciairspublication that shall bedays print be ed and
published
at intervals not exceeding sevenbetween the wo
consecutive parts or numbers of such publications, and the
superficies of which shall not exceed 3,500 inches of
printed matter, shall be entitled to
.the stud privileges of
stamped with the appropriate die of lii.; provided always
transmission and,retransmission. through the post, if duly
that such publication shall be subject to the terms and
conditions imposed in the third clause of this act." He
felt himself, he said, in a peculiarly difficult position in
moving this clause, because his right honourable friend
the member for Bucks had, inchingdealing with another
subject, anticipated almost every he had intended
to say with regard to it, and had, in his eloquent
speech, so completely dealt with the subject that
he was compelled in a great measure to rely upon

his arguments. The immediate object of the clause
which he held in his hand was to take as the measure which
be transmitted through the post for ld. a standard
rather above that Of the paper which had the largest circa,
lation. He might be asked why he had chosen dimension
rather than weight. To that he would reply that in such
cases weight was uncertain, and if the act became one of a
permanent character, under the competition which it might
give rise to there might arise circumstances connected with
the manufacture of paper itself which would render weight
no criterion as to the amount of matter contained, and he
had, therefore, felt it to be his duty to shape his clau
found
that hie right hon. friend the member for the University
of Oxford, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, whe
brought in a bill to alter the Stamp Act, had thought that
it was only justice to take as the measure for transmission
by post the dimensions of the largest paper then in circu-
lation, and he (Mr.'Milnes) now asked the committee, in
altering the present law, to-take as the measure of dimen-
sion the largest paper at present in circulation. It had
been said that it would be much better not to enter on the
question of weight or dimension, but to allow any daily
paper to be transmitted by pest for ld., without regard to
its weight or size ; and it had been argued that by confining
that concession to the daily papers it would be without the
range of possibility that any very extraordinary weight
would be imposed upon the Post-office. In reply to that
opinion, the argumentum ad absurdum had been used, and
it had been asked whether, if the editor of a newspaper
chose to wrap himself up in a copy of his own journal. he
Would be conveyed through the Post-office for Id. ; but the
argument which weighed with him was, that he did not
see how such a concession could be made to the daily pa-
pers alone without acting most injuriously and unjustly
upon'and -against the provincial and weekly pape, and
upon that consideration he
on had felt that he could nong
t
fairly argue the question up the ground of conveying
the daily papers through the post for ld. without a
limitation whatever as to their size.. He hoped that t the
Government would not have any objection to lay i
is
down as a principle that the daily papers of the met lay
which had by their diligence, exertion, and ability raised
themselves to the position of distributing over the whole
leegth.a.nd breadth of the kingdom an amount of intellec-
tual matter never produced in the same way in any other
nation, should enjoy a full share of justice, and that their
chances of circulation should not be diminished at a mo-
ment when power was being given to very large papers to
circulate an enormous number of copies within a certain
Tadius without going to the expense of a stam p. It was, m-
he
thought, a matter of simple justice topapers which me
bers of that house had become accustomed to look upon
almost as political rivals, and of which it was impossible,
however one might disagree from the principles contained
in them, to think without respect. _Pill that those papers
s
asked for was that they should not be placed in an unfai
position, but that they should be allowed a reasonable
chance of keeping up the high intellectual position which
they now enjoyed. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer
(Mr. Gladstone) stated the other day that the question 01
weight was at present so nicely balanced that the railways
ware unable to carry into the country by the early train a
complete supply of the Times; that portion of the paper
containing news being sent by the early trains, and the
supplement by later trains. He (Mr. Milnes) had 'made
in luiries on the subject, and he found that, though the
fact was true, the inference was entirely false. The question
was one depending altogether upon the manipulation of
newspapers; and now, when the circulation of newspapers
was so fionsiderably increased in consequence of the war,
the difficulty of manipulating the large number of the Times
required to be transmitted by the early trains was too great
to be overcome, and it was solely on this account, and
o not
in consequence of the excessive weight, that one portin
of the paper was conveyed by one train and the remaining
portion by another. He did not think that, if the pre-
sent bill should be passed, it would have the effect of
destroying the great metropolitan journals, for he be-
lieved they had sufficient energy and power to overcome
any difficulties to which they might be subjected by
the measure. Hon. gentlemen were aware that when,
during the last century a penny stamp was imposed
would
n
periodicals it was predicted- that such publications
be destroyed, but the Spectator, though shaken temporarily,
not only survived the blow, but rose with redoubled vigour,
and in the very last article, in the 7th volume of the Spec-
tator, sir Richard Steele congratulated himself that that
piper, by the buoyancy of its own merit, had attained au
enormous circulation in defiance of the stamp. Although,
however, the Spectator of that day, and the best periodicals
of the present day, might possibly) survive such an iejury
it was impossible to avoid the reflection that the Spectator
might have had a tenfole circulation if it had not been sub-
ject to a stamp. He had no doubt the newspapers of the
present day would derive great advantage from the aboli-
tion of the stamp which now limited their circulation, but
he asked the cenitnittee, as a matter of public policy and
justice, to assent to his proposal. He did not ask a privilege
for one newspaper or another, but he asked them to enable
every newspaper, metropolitan or provincial, to rise to the
same height of intellectual merit, to deserve the same pub-
lic attention, and to exercise the same influence over the
country as had been attained and were exercised by the
e
leading journals of the metropolis: He asked them t
assent to his proposal in recognition of the merits of those
great newspapers Which formed their daily delight. If they
neglected this opportunity they might have cause for per-
manent regret hereafter, when they discovered that they
had destroyed or damaged an important means of promot-
ing the intellectual advancement of this country.
Mr COWAN thought he owed an apology, or at least ap
explanation, to the committee for not having pressed the
amendments of which he had given notice. Having found,
however, that those amendments were unpalatable to the
Government, that they were objected to by the late Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and also by the noble member for
Lynn (Lord Stanley), whose manly and independent con-
duct ou this question did him great credit, he felt it woulo
have been very unwise on his part if he had pressed them
upon the attention ofthe committee. He thought, consider-
ing the various parties whose interests were affected, and
taking into account also the transition state of the Post-
office iu connection with the duties it was called upon to
discharge, that that house was a very unfit tribunal to db-
termino what amount of weight or chat ee should b 3 fixed.
andthet the subject was one which should be left to the
decision of the executive Government. lie imagined that
the Government would not be disposed to assent to the
motion before the committee, which seemed to be based
upon the assumption that the State must convey by post
tiny amount of weight. There were newspapers in exist-
ence, such as' he Illustrated London News, which weighed
as much as 10 ounces, and if the committee agreed that
newspapers of the dimensions of 3,500 inches should be
carried at a rate of one penny, he did not see why they
should not go a step further, and convey such papers as the
Illustrated London News at the same rate. Ho would call
the attention of the committee to the enormous weight of
newsp ipers the Post-otlice now carried, as contrasted with
what was the case 40 or 50 years ago. He found, from au
article in the European Magazine of ISOi, thatl the num
fie';be
of newspapers in England, in 1782, was . 2 ;
in 790,
and in 1801, 135. The number of newspapers in Scotland
in these respective years was 8,7, and 31; and in Ireland,
3,9, and 56. The circulation of the London morning
papers In 1808 was 16,000; of evening papers 14,000; of
Sunday vipers, 25,0.10 ; of weekly p (seers 20,000 ; and of
others, 10,000 ; making, as the writer of the article ob-
sesved, the " enormous number" of 85,000 newspapers,
using five tons of paper in the course of a week. There
was another article on the subject in the European Maga-
zine of 1822, when the circulation of the Times was stated
to be 5,700. The average daily circulation of that journal
at the present time was stated to be 60,000. The circula-
tion of the Observer in 1822 was stated to be 6,860, of the
ilforning Chronicle 3,180, and of the St. James's Chronicle
3,7; .0 ; and the writer of the article, after referring to the
circulation of other nary observed that the result pre-
sented an extraordinary proof of the activity of the periodi-
cal press. How would the writer have been astonished if.
he had seen
the progress that had been since made in ex-
'tending the irculation of the newspapers? Instead of the
consumption of paper by the London press being five tons
a week, as was' the case in 1808,d
the Times alone, pub-
it was now between 130
and 150 tons weekly. He believe
one sheet, would. consume 25.. tons of paper
wished in
weekly, da
if
cy pl
lub Ito% luau
st-w oN
us hwe ewt sh
at
th e
was
s du
umupetitoun.
wwoaurdlwouldbdeaesnain,l
by rais
lway ? It was stated before the committee, which
annually
this enormous weight of newspapers
hra adcow anys, i dtehrc,etd
ltahs et syearulej e ctth
so f
atvheer
acgoen vwe
eyiasphcteuoff
tmh
ea i
ml s
abi
il.
that left London daily was 279 cwt., of which 219 cwt.
consisted of newspapers. It was clear that if the weight
of newspapers sent by post continued to increase, duties
properly discharged, and very consi
of the mails not-
probably take place in the transmirion
'would be thrown upon the Post-offic,etewrahbilcsh
dcoeulalyd not
tubste
adopted for dep isiting the mails at t
speed. of the traie Is. It
without materially checking the
Withstanding the ingenious contrivancheas
vtahraituushs.4l:tbieoeuns
should impose such a rate of charge for cont.
voefvfilcne'for the
papers as would duly remunerate the Polls
appeared to him, then, very important that
.th:
uheor..
He believed that
service it was called upon to perform.
published
pishneewi
2sopeopre3rso,
yoefaarssms4ao_ll size--about
to some classes of the community, for the newspapers no
vf a
ut ht
ao
gal
now
published, however bly conducted, were inconveniently
large. If we were to have cheap papers, why should we
impose so high a postage as ld. for what perhaps might
;dab: et tghe restßiz advantage
not weigh more than an ounce ? He was much disep-
pointed at the Government not taking the plan which he
had pointed out to them into their favourable considera-
tion, as he believed it would have proved beneficial to the
press, to which this country owed so large a debt of grati-
tude. The adoption of the u4iversal penny receipt stamp
was likely to prove highly advantageous to the revenue ;
and this fact ought to encourage the Government to make
at least an experiment in the way of cheap postage for
newspapers.
Lord. STANLEY understood that the principle which
his hon. friend (Mr. Milnes) wished to affirm was this—
that every newspaper should be transmitted through the
post. at the same charge of ld., altogether irrespective of
its bulk or weight. That he understood to be the prin-
ciple of his proposal, because, though he took a limit, he
took one that would cover the size of the largest newspa-
per now known, and he was prepared to increase the limit
indefinitely so as to cover the largest size that could be
published. (Heel-, hear.) He agreed with his hon. friend
when he said this was a question of simple justice ; but
he did not think that justice lay on the side which his
hon. friend contended fur. (Hear, bear.) The committee
could not deal with this question as if it were personal to
any particular journal. If they did so, they wouldou the
be
acting on no sound basis of ascertaii ed principle,
result would only be inextricable confusion (Hear hear.)
He understood the principle of the bill before them to be
generally this—that, whereas formerly we had a tax on
newspapers, imposed on certain conditions, we were now
asked to abolish that tax and substitute for it a simple
postal charge. A tax, pr perly so called, might be in its
self unequal ; it might fall more severely on one class
bin on another, and yet that inequality, the result of the
incidence of the tax, might be balanced by countervailing
advantages which would make an weber tax
entlem in
fair
u
reality ; and that was his answer to the hon. g
()pp site. A postal charge was the result of a contract
between the Government and the public, by which the
Government undertook fur a certain compensation to per-
form a certain service. Now, what we were bond to ob-
serve in such a case was, that the charge imposed should
always and in ovary case- be proportioned to the service
rendered. (llar, hear.) That was the fair principle of
a contract, and we were especially bound to observe it in
regard to such contracts as thoso of the Post-office. Now
what his hon. friend proposed was to carry any, weight to
which a newspaper might extend through the Post-office at
the same price—an unlimited weight to be carried for an
unlimited number of miles Would he apply that pria-
ciple to all printed matter ? (Hear.) It was laid down
clearly the other night that we desired neither to give the
newspapers any advantage on the one hand, nor to put'
them under any disadvantage on the other. If we carried
them on more unfavourable terms than we ought we were
taxing them, which the house bad declared it- intention
not to do. If we carried them on more favourable terms
wo were subsidising them, and preferring them to other
publicatinps. (Hear.) Or was it proposed to carry this
principle to all printed. matter and to all private docu-
ments? [" No,,' from Mr, Milos.] Then, it weuld be

unnecessary for him to argil° that question. Bat let the
committee recollect that a latter weighing under half-an-
ounce was sent for ld., while the largest newspaper printed
and weighing nearly Bounces, was to be sent alsta•for Id.,
according to the prepoiition of his hon. friend. (Hear.)
Thus the privilege given to the newspaper was 12 times
greater than that given to the letter, and, in addition,
there would be the `privilege of retransmission. The news-
paper might pass 6 times through the Post-office in the
week, and these two multiplied—the weight and the quan-
tity—it would be found that we were conferring on the
newspaper 72 times the amount of postal privilege we
were conferring on the letter. (Hear.) B
thadidcould not see
ariy argument of justice or , sound policy
urged in favour of such a proposal as that. In dealing
with this question, the principle on which we ought to
act was, to carry a certain quantity, say 4 ounces, of all
matter, whether printed or manuscript, for the sum of ld.
(Hear.) Let there be no distinction between printed mat-
ter and manuscript letters. On the other hand, we must
remember.that we could not afford to loss any revenue,
though, if we came to argue that point, it might be found
that the additional revenue derived from letters weighing,
half-an-ounce was less than might be supposed, and, there-
fore, that that diffieulty might not be so formidable as
some people imagined. We should also have to tolerate
another anomaly, and that was the, privilege of retrans-
mission. Already we were sending eight times the
weight of newspaper matter through the post for the
same price at which we sent manuscript matter un-
der halt-an-ounce, and that eightfold advantage we
added to by sending the newspapers during the
week for as many times as their owners pleased.
He thought that sufficient allowance had already been
mule for these interests; and that, if the privileges were
further extended, the committee would only confer in
another shape that which in a former case had already been

abolished. (Hear.)
Mr. LOWE was sure that the committee would believe
him when he stated that he ventured to address them upon
this subject with great reluctance, and that he should not
be induced to do so did he not believe that he could give
them some little information with regard to it. .The noble
lord who had just sat down had argued the question as if
they were about to establish a totally new principle for the
conveyance of printed and written matter through the
Post-office. It might or might not be right for the House
of Commons to do so, but he would not enter into that sub-
ject, because it was not the question before them. The
question simply was whether Id. should be the amount of
postage to be charged upon a certain quantity of matter
published at intervals within a certain date ? Whether
that were just or unjust depended materially upon the
principle which was applied in viewing the question, and
he submitted that it should not be the principle which had
been laid down by the noble lord. It could hardly have
escaped the committee, and the noble lord must himself
have felt it, that his argument iinffered from some amount
of inconsistency, because the noble lord was very much
shocked at the disparity of carrying six ounces of a news-
paper for ld. and a letter, under half-en-ounce, for the same
Linount ; but the noble lord was not shocked at the du-
parity, almost equally startltog, of carrying fourounces and
half-an-ounce for ld. They must fix upon a principle,
umwever, and apply iLstrictly, fairly, and logically. The
noble lord's principle would appear to be to treat news-
papers and letters as the same, and to apply the same rule
of postage by weight to all. He did not gather how the
noble lord intended to accomplish this; but if ho might
be allowed the phrase, he thought that the proposition
was " practically impracticable." If the noble lord took
letters as his guide, he would impose a rate upon news-
papers which, however just according to the noble lord's
abstract theory, would effectually exclude them from the
Post-office. If, on the other hand, he took newspapers as
his guide, and carried letters at the rate of four ounces for
Id., he would snake such an enormous invasion into the
postage revenue that it would be impossible to conduct the
establishment upon such a basis; because. in the case of
large concerns, a number of letters' would be sent under
one envelope, and the Post-office would be, defrauded. If
he took letters, then, as his guide, he would exclude news- i
papers from the Post-office, and if he began with news-
papers,
he would charge too little for letters exceeding the
ordinary weight to permit of the establishment being re-
munerative. He therefore submitted that the proposal of
the, noble lord was not a practical one. (Hear, hear.) Let
them look at this question as men of business, and what,
he asked, was the fact ? The truth was that the Post-
office existed mainly and primarily for the purpose of car-
rying letters. Those letters paid the expenses of the Post-
office, and if it did not carry a single newspaper it would be
impossible to diminish the expenses of the establishment in
any rtsp set, becau e it would l e necessary to maintain it for
lie purpose of carrying the letters alone. Mr. Rowland
dill had given his sanction to this statement, and there-
fore there could be no doubt about it. The principle, then,
he apprehended, upon which the Government bad hitherto
sroceeded was this :—Here was the Post-office existing for
he purpose of carrying letters, and having, as it were, a
surplus facility for carrying other matter, and Parliament,
ieing of opinion that the conveyance of newspapers was a
great public benefit which was worthy of being encouraged,
tad chosen to carry newspapers at a rate infinitely cheaper
than that which was imposed upon letters, and to give them
he privilege of being transmitted and retransmitted
through the Post-offiCe ad infinitum. (Hear.) Unless the
sounnittee would grant him' that there was some public
aolicy in carrying newspapers cheaper than letters, there
would be nothing for it but to treat them both alike, and to
charge newspapers at the same rate as letters. He concluded,
sherefore, that there was some public policy in carrying
lewspapers cheaply, and he imagined that the Government
saw no reason for changing that principle. That was the
;round upon which he had started. In a country like this
iree communication, freedom of knowledge, and freedom
intelligence were the very life-blood of the constitution.
(Hear, hear.) It was by such means that people acquired
their information ; by it the public were made participa-
tors virtually is the deliberations of that house, and every
one who addressed them in that chamber had the ad-
vantage of addressing, in fact, the whole civilised world.
He thought that that was no small advantage, and that it
was one which the Legislature had done wisely to consider.
He came next to the question, what was the limit which
ought to be imposed The limit at present was 2,295
inches, Was it enough or was it too little? That was the
practical question. He coald only illustrate it by a refer-
mce to the most prominent case which existed—that of
the Times newspaperwhich had been frequently referred
to in the course of these debates. The case of the Times
was this :—When it printed 12 pages, as it did three days
a-week, its limits did Rot exceed 2,295 inches, and it was
then enabled to print its inipressious upon a peony stamp ;
but when it printed 16 pages, as it did on three other days
of the week, it had to pay an additional halfpenny in the
shape of stamp duty, which upon a sale of 60,000 copies,
cost the proprietors of the Times 1251. ; and when to that
onount was added the extra expense of paper and print-
ing, lie was toll, and he believed it, that the extra supple-
oents were not remunerative. The proprietors of tho
Times, however, had no choice but to publish these supple-
oents unless they Preferred to send away advertisements.
It was a necessity imposed upon them by the nature of the
'sews and the advertisements which they published that,
three times a-week, this additional expense of 1251. a-day
should be imposed upon them. Were that a uniform charge
upon the proprietors of the Times it might be suet by
an addition of one halfpenny to the price of the news-
paper, and then the expense VrOtild be transferred to the
reader ; but:as the charge was only an occasional one, it
fell upon the Times itself. He would scorn the notion of
arguing a question of this sort with reference to only one
newspaper ; but the matter affected a whole class, and
what was the case with reference to
thaties-day might
he that-and he sincerely hoped it would be— of
other newspapers in a few years. See how the circula-
tion of the Times itself bad increased within the last few
years. In 1808 it was somewhere about 5,000, in 1841 it
was 11,000, and now it was 60,000. What was there to
prevent the other papers doing the same thing? Upon what
principle, then, he asked, should they fix a limit upon the
size of newspapers? Why insist that newspapers, after
increased
they
select ama ount
exceeding
na ? curtain
Upon
wsize,hn what
shouldground pay
par-
ticular stage of advancement in a newspaper in order to
sh should d
levy a severe fine upon it ? The committee appeared to be
of opinion that there was no limit to the size of a daily
newspaper; but that be apprehended to be a mistake—the
very circumstances of the case put a limit upon the size.
First of all there was a natural limit. The news of the day
and the advertisements of the day, to be followed by the
news and,sdvertisements of the next day, imposed one
limit. Another limit was the quantity which a man could
aossibly read and get through in the course of a day ' • and
he was certainly inclined to think that that limit had been
reached already. But, besides these, there was another
limit which was certain to prevent the increase of news-
papers beyond a certain size. It was quite obvious—for
considerations palpable enough—that it was not the inte-
rest of the daily, newspaper, however large and well con-
ducted, to raise its price above its fellows, and therefore it
was that wo had the publications of the Times and the
rtsesse
il always
w withinitsay s
thehte
ga
Globe sold at the same price. It was not a case in which
the propri, tors of the former journal c mild raise their price
because the competition of other newspapers kept down
.pricegmleouo
amount
the
which
their
ue limit,ritt oofothat
aTthie,r,tei
publish r
nw
withoute al et,ot therefore
a reepflooi
cir-
culation. There were two sources from which a newspaper
ts
derived its income—its sale and its advertisements. There
were also two sources of expenditure—that which was in-
volved in the circulation, and that which was implied in
filling the newspaper with the matter which it contained.
It was quite evident, therefore, that while the price of
the
the latter item increased, and that at which new
s-
paper was sold remained the same, the paper
might grow at length to such an extent that the
" circulation " alone would cease to return a profit.
Under those circumstances, it was absolutely necessary to put
a limit to the increase of the circulation. That point the
Times had reached. The hon. gentleman the member for
Manchester had himself mentioned the difficulty of getting a
copy of the Times, and the premium at which copies of that
paper were ; and how did he account for it ? How did they
account for the fact that anewspaper proprietary, if influenced
alone by a regard for their own interest, should neglect to
sapply the article in which it dealt ? The •
reason was obvious,
that matters had come to a point when rho
Times was neces-
sitated to contract its circulation, There
ion. There apprehension was,
lest, the circulation by increas;ng the paper should become the
means of a loss ; and any loss would be very serious, because
it would be immediately multiplied by 60,000. That was the
state in which things were
sooner
with respect to that paper
and at which every Paper
thing he was quite certain, thater or
if they
must arrive. Of one
ater
desired to maintain the
press at its present standard they
jour-
nals, and therefore those on which
mast allow the largest
h the greatest amount of
capital and talent was employed, to circulate through the
country with as little difficulty and
Mr. M. GIBSON said the expense as possible.
proposition before the house was
simply this—that there was a case for relief for cryi •' ng the
Times through the post ; and that whereas the Times, with a
supplement full of most profitable matter, was now carried
through the post for lid., it was now proposed that it should
be carried for Id,, being deducted from the public re-
venue. NOW, he mainfained that.
there was no fair case for
relief. Why, if the Times would give him the money received
from their advertising connection, he would bind himself
legally to pay the extra Id.
postage. They ought.not to make
exceptions in favour of: any one concern, but should either
carry all printed matter at thoeleow rate now proposed to be
applied to the Times, or-should
not reduce the present rate at
which that journal was carried.
When it was said that the
Times newspaper was fined, and had a case for relief, lie (Mr.
Gibson) would say it was a monstrous appeal, and the house
ought to resist it. He, for one,
would record his vote against
the motion of the right honthis supplemental stamp, . gentleman ; for, if they repealed
the proprietors of a
certain portion of the public prosperous commercial establishment a
do so they had better voterevenue, and if they resolved to
and say the Times was an i the sum at once—(hear, hear)—
nstitution, and ought to be sup-
ported at the public
call attention to the fact that
expense.
(Hear, hear.) He begged to
occasionally weighed ten the Illustrated London News
much larger amount of ounces, and would probably have a
printed matter in it than any other
paper.

Mr. E. BALL hoped the light hon. member for Manchester
would excuse him if he did not follow the advice he had given
to the house. He (Mr. Ball) was of opinion that the Post-
office could convey
any newspaper at a much less cost than
penny, and that the l'oet-office would suffer no loss by carrY

ing a much larger newspaper than any published in this
country.
Mr. WARNER was of opinion that every newspaper con-
veyed through the Post-office was carried at a loss to the re-
venue, and the more they discouraged the traffic the better
for the public revenue. (Cries of divide.),
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if the
proposition of his hon. friend the member for Kidderminster,
that a uniform principle should be applied to the' postage of
newspapers and of every article carried by post, was practi-
cally enforced„ he feared that nearly the whole of the pre-
sent system would have to be abolished. If they compared
the rates of charge upon letters, upon newspapers, and' upon
bo•ks and other printed publications not being newspapers,
they would find the discrepancy so great that if it were the
pleasure of Parliament to reduce them to a uniform scale it
would be necessary to sweep away all the existing rates and
to commence de novo. In the bill which he had the honour
to lay before the house he limited himself to carrying into
effect with the smallest possible alteration of the existing law
what he understood to be the decision and wish of the
house, namely, that the compulsory newspaper stamp
should be converted into an optional stamp. That bill'
was founded exclusively upon the existing principle,
and therefore maintained the present rule. 'With respect
to superficial inches of the newspaper, that rule ',being
that the newspaper printed on one or two sheets might con-
tain 2,295 inches of letters for one penny ; and any number
of additional supplements might he printed at the rate of one-
halfpenny for 1,148 inches. That was the rule now iu exist-
ence, and was the result of legislation two years ago by which
the then existing charge upon newspapers was diminished,
and the charge for that which was previously carried forthree
halfpence was reduced to a penny. The effect of the measure
now before the house would be, that every newspaper pro-
prietor would be at liberty to stamp such portion of the cir-
culation as they thought fit, butno part of it could go through
the post without the impression of a stamp: That change in
the law, would confer a considerable benefit on all existing
newspapers. They would be relieved from the compulsory
stamp on a certain portion of their circulation, and to that
extent they would be benefitted by the measure before the
house. (Hear.) Unless the house was prepared to sacrifice not
only that portion of the revenue which was necessarily lost by
the abolition of the compulsory stamp, but also that further
portion which would be included in an offer on the part of
the public to carry at a lower rate a larger sized newspaper
than at present, there seemed no reason for departing from
the arrangement at present in force. It had been argued that
as a portion of a newspaper was given gratuitously to its sub-
scribers, and as no additional charge was made for an addi-
tional quantity of matter, it was unreasonable that an addi-
tional charge should be ade by the Post-office. But the Post-
office had nothing to do with the question as betweena news-
paper and its customers. All the Post-office had to look to
was the bulk and weight of the article. To the Post-office it
was utterly indifferent what the price might be, or whether in-
deed the article was priced at all. With regard to purely adver-
tising sheets, which were circulated gratuitously, the trouble
and expense to the Post-office were as great as in the case of
a high priced newspaper ; and therefore the argument that
was derived from the gratuitous circulation of a portion of a
newspaper containing advertisements appeared altogether
destitute of weight. He admitted, however, that the
whole question of the transmission of newspapers, as
compared with other, printed matter, required the most
careful consideratim, and that the present system must
soon undergo a considerable change. But tho alteration of
. the law which he now proposed was one of great magnitude
and importance, and he thought they should wait to see how'
it operated before they plunged into a fresh series of changes.
Mr. DRUMMOND said that he objected the other day to
the whole conduct of the press, because it was a system of
stabbing in the dark. Ho equally objected to that house
stabbing the Times in the dark, for there could be no ques-
tion, after the debate which had just taken place, that this
was an attack upon a single newspaper. They were begin-
ning to indulge private pique under the pretence of public
virtue. (Hear, hear.) They hated the Times. (A laugh.)
They were afraid of it, and instead of standing up boldly
against it, they were giving it this dirty stab in the dark.
The house then divided—
For Mr. M. Milnes's clause B6
Against it 260
Majority against the clause —l74 •
The preamble of the bill was then agreed to, and the bill
was reported with amendments to the house. The report or-
dered to be brought up to-morrow (this day).
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, &c. (SCOTLAND), BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION (SCOTLAND)

BILL.

The Parliamentary Representation (Scotland) Act Amend-
ment Bill was read a second time.
The other orders of the day were postponed.
MILITIA.

Mr. PEEL obtained leave to bring in a bill to attend the
laws relating to the militia in England. He stated, in reply to
some remarks by Colonel Fibthorp, that the object of the bill
was of comparatively minor importance. It did not affect the
point of the liability of the militiamen to serve in the embo-
died militia. It simply amended certain details relative to
the apportionment between counties and boroughs of the ex-
pense of storehouses and arms to the militia, regiments.