The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-21 00:00:00

1855.

probability will not be repaid, and which will increase the
netionel liebieities of Emile/el. The noble loal het; d
11!; e 1 :stern .`Lis i, the toos,t useful to
Vile it na the least beriteep.oma to Eoglaxii ; hot
obj,-et literaiso 1 think it 'a rCliintlitd 1.11`,A, !?:) 11:0115
I.crl;.ii)?,;. I object to it 'oyau,s, ilaere
in the expression filet tine ei;teut,,io ,101: eo,it
luittee is (ireeieil from the real questa/a at issue, namely—
whether UCi should increase our liabilities in order to
assist Turkey. I deny that the system proposed is the
least burdensome to England. (Hear, hear.) It is no less
burdensome than any other means by which England can
raise money, and it is no more burdensome. It must not,
therefore, be said that the Government has got a mode of
benefitting Turkey which is less disadvantageous to
England, for she incurs precisely the same liability.
The committee has to consider that the only question
before it is, whether we are to advance capital for the
benefit of Turkey? The noble lord says that there is an
objection to the form of the guarantee. The proposition
before us is, that we should give a joint and several gnat an-
tee with France for the entire i terest upon 5,000,0001.
In this respect the convention differs from that made in
1832 for the Greek loan; but, if I mistake not, the first
proposition made for the Greek loan in that year was made
in the form now recommended by the noble lord. It was
wisely refused by the noble lord who was then Secretary
of State, and two years afterwards circumstances arose
which would have rendered a joint guarantee iu the high-
est degree euibarassit'e to this country. The noble lord
has very wisely decided that the guarantee should be a
joint one, and now he says the form of that guarantee is
preferable to that of 1832. It certainly appears, atthe first
blush, that a separate guarantee is the most simple and the
least liable to give rise to international difficulties, and yet
what occurred in the year 1836, when the noble lord was
obliged to come down to the house to ask for fresh powers
to enable' England to fulfil her engagements? (Hear )
In 18 t 6 the noble lord the Prime Minister moved for leave
to bring in a bill to amend the 2d and 3d Win. IV., which
was known as the Greek loan. The noble lord was obliged
on that occasion to come down and introduce a bill to en
able him to fulfil engagements which the country had en-
tered into in 1832, and yet it was not in reference to a
joint guarantee, but only to a separate guarantee. I find,
on 28th of July in the same year, the noble lord moved for
a committee on the Greek loan, and made a statement
showing the existence of a difference between France and
England on the one hand, and Russia on the other, with
respect to the advances. The committee will, therefore,
see that even on the Greek loan—even with only a sepa-
rate guarantee—the noble lord was obliged to come down
and introdacea new bill to enable him to fulfil engagements
subject to comparatively slight restrictions in comparison
with those he now proposes to encounter. What would
have been the situation of the noble lord, under these
circumstances, if he had been engaged with a joint
guarantee, supposing France and Russia had re-
, fused to carry _ out their share of the guarantee.
and had not paid the interest on the loan ? Why, the noble
lord would have been obliged to pay the interest on the
whole loan. The noble lord must pardon um if I look upon
the proposition he has now made, of England entering into
a joint guarantee, not only with suspicion, but with great
alarm. If we found a separate guarantee liable to such
misinterpretation, and tending to such complications and
difficulties that we required all the ability and energy of
the noble lore to arrange them at that time, what may now
be the possible consequences of our entering at this mo-
ment into it, joint guarantee with our ally ? et is because
I estimate that alliance as high as the noble lord or any
man in the country, that I am anxiops to keep that connec-
tion as pure as possible of financial engagements. The noble
lord has himself acknowledged the possibility of a mss-
understanding with an ally under such circumstances ;
but why should se go out of our way to enter into
engagements of this kind which were pregnant with
eo much difficulty and danger, when we have before
us, if we are obliged to have recourse to this system of as-
sisting Turkey—a precedent which has proved efficient to
meet all those difficulties which are probably always insu-
eereble from financial engagements. Irrespective of my
objection to the original schme of coming forward to do
what is called assisting Turkey, by using the credit—that
is, the crspital of England—in a manner which appears to
me most crude, without having before us any detailed es-
timate of the circumstances which justify in the opinion
of the Government, such an advance ; irrespective of that
objection, I must say I greatly object to the form the noble
lord has recommended us to adopt. The noble lord says
there will be an arrangement made by which we shall have
a control over the finances of Turkey, which toy secure to
us the receipt of our interest, and of that sum which is
necessary from the public revenue to form a sinking fund
for this loan; and he also says that commissioners are to
be appointed in the Turkish empire for this great object ;
but this appears to me to be an arrangement pregnant with
great difficulties and dangers.
Lord PALMERSTON— We are to be distributors of the
proceeds.
Mr. DISRA.ELI—If we are to be the distributors of the
proceeds of the loan, then I think the noble lord has en-
tered into an arrangement infinitely more to be deprecated.
If we aro not only to supply the funds, but also to distri-
bute and divide them, when we call upon Turkey to pay
the interest and advances, we shall have a perpetual quar-
rel as to the mode in which the original loan has been ex-
pended. She will always say, We are paying interest on
money which we have not received, or which has not been
expended for the public benefit. Let the noble lord only
look at the pleas preferred by the South American States as
reasons for not paying the public debts they had contracted
with respective Governments. They have always said,
" These loans have been negotiated in so expensive a manner
that we have not received more than a moiety of two-thirds
of the nominal capital for which we are debtors, and there-
fore we shall not pay any portion whatever." You will be in
the same position in Turkey if you adopt the arrangements
recommended by her Majesty's Ministers. lam altogether
opposed to these advances to States in the position in which
Turkey is placed, but if you are to make advances, let
them be advances paid bona fide into the hands of the
Turkish Government. (Hear.) I sincerely hope the cow-
inittee will pause before it sanctions the resolution before
the house. This is the second advance which has been
asked for during the present session to assist a foreign
Power. It is an advance of the capital of England upon
an insufficient security. I see no reason why a sum larger
in amount may not be recommended in a very short time
to be again advanced for the assistance of Turkey. (Hear.)
The description given by the noble lord of the destitution
of Turkey is so vague, but at the same time is so alarm-
ing, that, if you admit his present precedent, there is no
reason why it may not be a precedent for larger de-
mands to be again, and even perpetua.ny, if the war
lasts, recommended for the sanction of Parliament.
My advice is, that this is a step we should not autho-
rise. If the Government can come forward and show
that there are special objects in regard to which it may be
of importance to assist Turkey, it will be for the committee
to consider whether those objects cannot be better obtained
by more directly expending these sums of money under our
own control and by our own means. The Government,
however, favour us with no details; they have not stated
upon what grounds they founded their estimate; we do
not know whether five millions or ten millions will be suf-
ficient to attain the specific object in the mind of the
Minister. But, by agreeing to this quest:on, we shall be
establishing a precedent which will, in my mind, have a
most injurious effect up .n the finances of this country.
All that I would do would he to entreat the committee
to reconsider well the financial position of our own coun-
try itself. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has to-night
appeared to be surprised that a right honourable gentleman
on this side of the house should have complained that
we should only just now—almost at the end of the
session—have become aware of the intention of the
Government to appoint another committee of ways and
means, and this, too' after we had voted an amount of pub-
lic money this year larger than hail been voted for the last
40 years. But Ido not think we ()ugh' to have owed it to
a chance inquiry of the hon. baronet the UJOlllber for Ever-
sham (Sir H. Willoughby) to be told that we are, at the
end of July, to prepare to go into committee of ways and
means. I think it would have been as well if this notifica-
tion had been made in a more formal and ceremonious man-
ner. All I know is, that it was an inquiry made in so sow
a tone of voice, and answered in a tone of voice so little
mere elevated, that very few hon. gentleman in the house
were really aware of the important inquiry and reply eTe
were favoured with. This is a very important considera-
tion, for is is quite impossible to shut our eyes to the
serious state of our finances. Great as are the resources
of this country, we must nut be afraid of calling it this
serious state of our finances. I have no doubt that, what-
ever sacrifices we are called upon to make the country
are prep fired to make for the great object now at
stake. The country, however, ought to have precise
ideas of the objects for which the public money is to be
expended. But I want to know what precise conception
we have of how these public funds going to Turkey are to
be expended ? We have not that infore.ation from Mini-
sters, and we are, at the same time, sanctioning a system
which is vague in its character and indefinite in its amount,
and at a time when we have to consider the general finan-
cial position of the country, incurring a liability which
renders all estimates impossible, and all computation of
public expenditure of the most unsatisfactory and perplex-
ing character. Under these circumstances, I think it will
be well for the house not to sanction the resolution now
in the hands of the chairman. Let her Majesty's Mini-
sters have an opportunity of reconsidering the whole' of
the question—let them wait until they place before us
a clearer idea of our financial position than we at
present possess, and let the Ministry in the interval
devise some , mode by which we may assist Turkey
in a manner, I think, much more efficient and
effective than sending English capital to that country,
instead of employing English capital by English means and
machinery for the object we have all of us at heart, namely,
the vigorous prosecution of the war in which we are en-
gaged, and establishing Turkey, as I hope to see it esta-
blished, a real and effective barrier against the aggression
of Russia. (Hear.)