The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-01 00:00:00

to vote with his honourable and learned friend op-
posite (Sir F.Thesiger) in accordance with the opinion he
had previously expressed relative to the clause now
under consideration. (Hear.) He objected to the Par-
liament of the year 18,15, undertaking to determine by
adopting a particular line of fiscal and commercial
policy, the financial policy of Parnament to 10 cr 15
years hence. (Cheers.) He contended that Parliament
was going entirely out of its province by so
doing. His right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) bad expressed, as one of the reasons for the
adoption of the clause, that it afforded a fair and rea-
sonable prospect of diminishing the capital of the debt
progressively. Now, it appeared to him that, under the
present circumstances of the law, this reason would prove
fallacious, and the clause itself would turn out to be
quite inoperative. Suppose, for instance, that peace
were proclaimed, and twelve months had elapsed,
aa-
cording to the provisions of the clause, the next year
there might be a surplus or there might not. But it
there were a surplus of a million the clause would be
inoperative, if the law was in force, as was proposed,
because the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be bound
to apply it to the extinction of the debt just incurred,
instead of applying it, as would be done under the present
financial law of the country, to the reduction of the pub-
lic debt in the most advisable and expedient manner
according to the circumstances of the times. (Hear,
hear, and cheers.) Thus the clause would not only
prove innopez ative but a positive mischief. He therefore
hoped that the opinion which had been so strongly ex-
pressed by the house against the clause would in-
duce his right honourable friend to withdraw ft from
the bill without the alternative of taking the sense of
the house more emphatically on the point by going to a
division. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY also said a few words against the im-
policy and injustice of the clause.
Mr. LABOUCHERE remarked that if this measure
went to a division he should feel himself obliged to vote
with the honourable and learned gentleman oppo
site. At the same time, he was bound to say
that he approved most highly of the finan-
cial scheme which his right hon. friend had brought for-
ward with the exception onis of the clause now before
the house ; and he, therefore, trusted that the right
hon. gentleman would take into consideration whether
it was worth his while to press the clause to a divi-
sion after the very forcible opinions uttered by different
hon. gentlemen in that house. It was his own firm
conviction that it was not expedient to vote a million
per annum for the purpose implied by the clause ; and
he moreover feared that a question might be raised as to
whether the Government could pledge succeeding Par-
liaments to adopt the course it involved. (Hear.) The
question generally had been so well argued by the hon.
member fur the University of Oxford, that he should only
he wasting the time of the house if he went over the
same ground ; and be would only express a hope that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not press the
house to a division on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. BARING rose to express a contrary hope to
that of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Labouchere). He
hoped that when a clause had been proposed, which bore
upon it the stamp of honesty, the Government which was
bold enough to bring it forward would be equally bold in
supporting, it. (Hear, hear.) To reject the clause would
be tantamount to saying " we do not wish or expect you
to ever reduce the debt."
Mr. RICARDO hoped the clause would not be pressed,
especially as be understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer
to say, the other day, that if the feeling of the house were
against it, he (lid not intend to press it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to dissent from this.
Mr. RICARDO begged the right hon. gentleman's par-
don if he had misunderstood him.
Mr. J. WILSON said, if one opinion had been more
generally expressed than another with regard to the prin-
ciple on which loans should be created it was, that loans
should be of a terminable nature. The form of loan
which had been most favourably received on all sides of
the house was that of terminable annuities ; and the prin-
ciple of such annuities was involved in the clause under
discs scion.
Mr. DISRAELI said the hon. gentleman had argued on
the assumption that the house had sanctioned the principle
of borrowing on terminable annuities, whereas there had
been no vote on the subject. He regarded terminable ar-
nuities as a very questionable means of raising money.
The ilea might be popular in that house, but if they went
into the City and consulted men of business on the subject,
they would be told in what the fallacy of terminable anoui-
ties consisted—that it was, in fact, borrowing money to
create a sinking fund. The 22d clause was neither more
nor less than a recurrence to the system of creating an
artificial fund, and to his mind nothing could be more ob-
jectionable than that. He though this clause would inter-
fere with the action of the present law with regard to the
sinking fund, to the principles of which he firmly adhered,
believing that it had worked advantageously for the coun-
try. At a time when they were borrowing money, it ap-
peared to him very undesirable to infuse into the public
mind the notion that it was very easy to get rid of national
incumbrances. Ho hoped the clause would not be pressed.
Mr. GLYN, while he congratulated the Chancellor of
the Exchequer upon the course which he had pursued, re-
gretted that he had not taken advantage of the recent
opportunity to raise a loan of 20,000,0001. Such a course
would have prevented the great increase which had taken
placed in the unfunded debt, an evil always to be avoided.
With regard to the matter immediately under considera-
tion, he considered that the reasons given by the right hon.
gentleman the member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) were such
as ought to lead the house to vote for, rather than against
this clause.
Mr. JOHN MACGREGOR agreed with thahon. gentle
man who last addressed the house, that it would have been
better for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have gone into
the market for a larger loan than the present. Had he
done so, ho would have been able to make better terms,
and to avoid the complicated system of terminable an-
nuities in which he had involved himself. He (Mr. Mac-
gregor) saw no use whatever in the clause under consider-
ation, believing, as he did, that the idea of a sinking fund
was an exploded übsurdity. In fact, be should describe
the whole afftir as a fiscal view of a promised land.
Mr. CARDWELL said he should be obliged—if the
clause were pressed to a division—to vote against it.
Lord PALMERSTON—I certainly concur in the wish
which has been expressed by hon. members, that this bill
should pass without any division of the house, but at the
same time I think the principle involved in this clause so
important that the Government ought to take the sense of
the house upon it. I take the question to be this. When
Parliament and the country find themselves pledged to a
specific debt, ought we or ought we not to make an effort
t. reduce in future years that debt? It is obvious that no
country can face a great emergency arising from a war in
which great efforts are to be made without providing means
over and above the ordinary revenues of the country. In
fact, no war of magnitude can be undertaken by any
country whatever without a loan upon honest principles or
without forced contributions. Now, accordinc, to the ar-
guments of the right hon. member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli)
or at least, according to some part of those arguments, a
country ought never to make an attempt to redeem any por-
tion of its debt. At the same time, in another part of his
speech, the right hon. gentleman praised that system by
which the sarplus income of the country is applied to the re-
demption of its debt. Bnt how does that surplus income
arise ? Did it not consist of the surplus of the proceeds of
taxation over the expenditure of the year? (Hear, hear.)
I think it desirable that this country should lay down, as a
principle, that which has already been established to some
extent in practice, viz„ that there should be in every year a
surplus income applicable to the reduction of the national
debt. Much had been said as to the policy of raising
money by means of terminable annuities, and undoubtedly
had that system been followed in the last war much of the
burden weighing upon this country would have ceased to
exist. But there are great difficulties in contracting a loan
of eny amount upon the principle of terminable annuities,
and I admit the statement of the right hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Disraeli) that it may be doubted whether it
is an economical method of providinc, for the reduction of
debt. No doubt the most economical mode is to raise a
loan in that kind of stock which will yield the largest
amount of money in return, and then to apply the surplus
revenue to its reduction. That is the principle of the pro-
position of my right hon. friend. He has negotiated a loan
upon the most advantageous terms, and he now proposed by
this clause to provide for its gradual reduction. The argu-
ments by which this clause h4s been met have been directly
contradictory. Some hon. members have objected because
it was a mere nullity; but, on the other hand, it has been
objected to because, it was said, some years hence a Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer will find himself embarrassed with
a pledge from which he will find it impossible to free him-
self. My opinion is that the act will be, like all other acts
of Parliament binding upon Parliament until it is repealed.
Hence, so long as it remains unrepealed, it will be the duty
of every Chancellor of the Exchequer to frame his esti-
mates in accordance with its provisions. If unfortunately
circumstances should arise which would make it impossible
to continue the annual payment in reduction of the debt,
it will be for Parliament in its wisdom, to consider the
question. (Hear.) I cannot, therefore, admit, either that
this is a valueless provision, or that it will be considered as
an obligation which ought not to be fulfilled. It is but
just in principle, that while on the one hand we are adding
16,00 000/. to the debt, on the other we are providing a
bona fide surplus, for the purpose of meeting it. (Hear.)
The house then divided—
For the clause 2lO
Against lll
Majority —99
The bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow
INCOME-TAX BILL.

•
gard to the reported raising of the siege of Sebastopol, a
despatch had been received that day from Lord Raglan,
and he made no mention of any such intention. (Cheers.)
In reply to Mr. GROGAN,
Sir C. WOOD said he had no objection to state the
whole contents of that despatch. It was simply that
Lord Raglan wished to know when the Sardinian con-
tingent was to sail. (Cheers and laughter.)
INCOME TAX—CIVIL SERVICE.
Mr. MACARTNEY asked the Chancellor of the
Exchequer if it was his intention to make any exception
with respect to the income tax chargeable upon the
salaries of the civil servants, who were subjected to a
charge of five per cent. in addition to the present income
tax (nearly 6 per cent.), making together about 11 por
centum levied on their limited incomes ; also, whether
he was prepared to state on what day he would lay on the
table of the house the proposed bill for altering and
amending the law respecting the Civil Service Super-
annuation Fund ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Income-tax Bill affected all public officers, with certain
exceptions. Government were not prepared to make
the exception indicated in the question of the hon. mem-
ber, as that could not be done to oue part of the public
service, and not to others.
SALARIES OF COUNTY COURT JUDGES.
In reply to Mr. LOWE,
Mr. WILSON said the Government, in respect of the
great duties some of the County Court judges had to
discharge, had decided on raising the salaries of some of
them to the maximum rate of 1,5001. a year.
THE VIENNA CONFERENCES.
Mr. DISRA.ELI—Seeir g the noble !ord the Secretary
for the Colonial Department once more among us=
(laughter)—l take the liberty of inquiring whether it is
the intention of the noble lord to lay any papers upon
the table with respect to his late mission, or to make
any statement to the house with regard to it, and, if so,
when ? And whether it is his intention, by any other
means, to afford the house any information as to the
proceedings of the last two months at Vienna? (Hear,
hear.) I should be glad to hear from the Government
what their intentions are on this subject.
Lord PALMERSTON—Before my noble friend re-
plies to the question, I wish to correct an answer I gave
to the hon. member for Manchester the other evening in
reply to his question whether the Russian Plenipoten-
tiaries had made any counter-proposals to the Conference
after the rejection of the proposals made by the English
and French Plenipotentiaries. I then answered from a
telegraphic message, and such messages are generally
rather short— (a laugh)—but from despatches subse-
quently received it appears that crinter-proposals were
made by the Russian Plenipotentiaries, those counter-
proposals, however, not being deemed either by the
British, the French, the Austrian, or the Turkish Pleni-
potentiaries as calculated to produce a satisfactory con•

elusion.
Lord J. RUSSELL then rose, and was received with
some cheering. The noble lord said—ln reply to the
questions which have been put to me by the right hon.
gentleman, I have to state, in
,the first place, that I
do not think it is for me to decide what papers shall
be laid upon the table of the house. I may say,
however, that I believe her Majesty's Government
intend very shortly to lay upon the table the pro-
tocols of the Conterences which have taken place at
Vienna. Those protocols will convey to the house in-
formation of the substance of the negotiations that have
taken place. Perhaps I may say a few words more,
without intending to go into any detail as to the nego-
tiations. The first meeting of the conference was on
the 15th of March. The negotiations with respect to
the first two of the four points with which the house is
acquainted lasted until the 26th of March. On the
26th of March the third point came under consideration.
It was suggested by the plenipotentiaries of Austria that
the plenipotentiaries of Russia should themselves make
a proposal calculated to satisfy the exigencies of the
case. The plenipotentiaries of Russia replied that they
had no instructions to do so, but they asked for time to
refer to their Government. The consequence was that
the conference was then adjourned, and that no meeting
fur the transaction of business took place until the an-
swer was received from St. Petersburg. On the 17th of
April another conference was held, when the pleni-
potentiaries of Russia informed the conference
that they had received instructions from their Go-
vernment not to take the initiative of any proposi-
tions, but that they were ready to hear and discuss
any proposal which might be submitted to the confer-
ence. The representatives of the allied Powers then re-
quested 48 hours to consider the fnrin in which they
should make their proposal, and on the 19th of April the
plenipotentiaries of France and of Great Britain, sup-
ported by the plenipotentiaries of Austria, laid their
proposition before the conference. The Russian pleni-
potentiaries, on their side, asked for 48 hours in order to
prepare their answer to this proposition. Accordingly,
on the 21st they gave their answer totally rejecting the
propositions which had been made to the conference.
They stated to us, however, that they had propositions
to make on the part of their Government which they
conceived would be in accordance with the demand that
Turkey should he united more closely with the mainte-
nance of the balance of power in Europe, and that some
restriction should be placed upon the preponderance of
Russia in the Black Sea. The plenipotentiaries of Aus-
tria, France, and Great Britain found those proposals of
Russia entirely unacceptable, and refused to consider
them in detail. The plenipotentiary of Austria then
said, although these propositions had been rejected, he
trusted that all the means of reconciling the belli-
gerent parties by peace were not yet exhausted. To
this the plenipotentiaries of France and of Great
Britain replied that their instructions were exhausted,
and that they had no powers to consider any
further propositions. 1 then considered that the
best way of performing my duty would be to re-
pair to my own Government, and to lay before them
the whole state of the case with respect to the negotia-
tions at Vienna, and the manner in which the confer-
ences had been suspended. Two or three days after-
wards the Minister of Foreign Affairs of France, having
requested the orders of tue Emperor, came to a similar
determination. I believe he was expected to arrive in
Paris last night, and I have no doubt he will lay before
his Government his account of the occurrences that have
taken place in the course of those negotiations.
Mr. DISRAELI—I wish to inquire whether, before
the protocols of the conference are laid upon the table—
and I trust they will be produced with all possible de-
spatch—her Majesty's Government have any objection
to give us some preliminary papers—for instance, de-
spatches of our ambassador or plenipotentiary at Vienna,
which will afford us an authentic and official description
of what the four points are ? The noble lord wilt per-
haps recollect that at the present moment we have not
the four points on the table of the house in au official
form. I think, therefore, it would be very much for the
convenience of the house if, without loss of time, we
were put in possessiou of these preliminary papers, so
that, before the protocols of the conferences are in our
hands, we may understand what were the data and the
bases upon which those conferences toek place, and why
they were brought to an end.
Lord PA LM.ERSTON—I think the protocols them-
selves will pretty clearly explain what the four points
were, but if the protocols do not afford sufficient infor-
mation there can be no objection to laying some paper
on the table that will give the requisite explanation.
With regard to papers belonging to the lc:ng course of
negotiation that preceded the conferences, I think
there might be great objection to their production ; but
I will take care that the house shah be in full possession
of a knowledge of the four points that were brought
under the consideration of the conferences.
Mr., DISRAELI—Perhaps I did not make my ques-
tion sufficiently clear to the noble lord. I have no
doubt that when the protocols are in our possession we
shall clearly understand the nature of the four points—
(a laugh)—but, as the Government have only given a
vague promise to produce the protocols, and have not
fixed any time when th6y will be placed on the table,
what I wished to know was, whether the noble lord
would have any objection to afford the house at once
some authentic knowledge of what the four points of
which we have heard so much consist ? I should not,
of course, press the Government for any private des-
patches ; but if they would lay upon the table the
single despatch in which the nature of the four points
was communicated to her Majesty's Government, so that
the house may at once be placed in possession of teat
information, I think such a course would be highly
satisfactory to hon. members generally, and could not
be attended with any inconvenience.
Lord PALMERSTON— Whatever papers can be
produced will be laid before the house as soon as pos-
sible, and I do not think their production will be de-
layed so long as the right hon. gentleman supposes.
(Laughter.,
Mr. DISRAELI—I wish only for complete and sa-
tisfactory information. The noble lord repeats that he
will lay before the house as soon as possible the protocols
of the conferences, but does he mean at the same time to
produce the correspondence which took place between
our plenipotentiaries at Vienna and her Majesty's Go-
vernment in pursuance of the treaty of December 2 !
That is the information the house would be desirous of
having.
Lord PALMERSTON—I cannot at present say
what papers beyond the protocols will be laid upon the
table, but the Govercment will consider the subject.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE understood news had been re-
ceived from Vienna that negotiations had been opened
between Russia and some of the gentlemen who had
been left behind by the (plenipotentiaries. (A. laugh.)
He wished to ask whether any negotiations of any sort
or kind had been resumed at Vienna since the departure
of the noble lord opposite ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that since his noble
friend left Vienna some proposal had been made by
Russia, which was not deemed likely by any of the re-
presentatives of the other Powers to lead to satisfactory
results.
Mr. BASS inquired what part Turkey bad taken in
the conferences ? (A laugh.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I cannot go into details, but
the Turkish plenipotentiaries were of the same mind as
the plenipotentiaries of Great Britain, France, and
Austria. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
LOAN BILL.
On the order eff the day for the Loan Bill, as amended,
to be consider.,e,
Sir F. KE'LLY rose to move that clause 22 be
omitted. In . loing so, he alluded to the anomalous and
impolitic course which it involved in pledging future
Parliaments t o adopt a particular course of commercial
Policy- (Ile: tr, hear,)
e pin' 9EtA
ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after
tlrodaueneintf.b,riefiy the grounds which had led him to in-
fair pros.7.clause into the bill, said that it afforded a
re-
cently „I'ealt::1 diminishing the capital of the debt re-
Mr. GL2,
a division A: S"r°NE said that if the question went to
should fool it a duty incumbent upon him

Iar.HILDYARD moved, after the word "respectively,"
in the Bret clause, to insert "if such annual value or
amount shall reach or exceed 1501., and an additional rate
and duty of lid. for every 20s. of the annual value or
Lmount of all such property, profits, and gains respec-
tively, if such an annual value or amount shall reach or
exceed 1001. and not reach 1001. This would limit the in-
crease of taxation upon incomes under 1501. to lid. in the
pound. The sum which the Chancellor of t e Exchequer
would lose by this would be but small, and in a case like
the present he thought the right hon. gentleman would
not uponolildthat argument as an answer to this motion.
memberru eorely
the nelw SIBTHORP supported the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
t
exemptionmake
verypro little difference
p b ythe hon
t. andthe
Crownlearne
d
but it would also make very little difference to the tax-
payer, not more than six shillings a year. He did not
wish, however, in any way to pledge himself against the
(r i
state
teer,dei principlenit of a
nthcaaotrninteeh,aenhtea;discriminating
(the and as the d
hon. e
. r andsPe ea% incomes
learned of
member
endcmheannte
esubstantially
xinterested of
shouldli-
not think it duty to oppose it. (Rear, hear.),
The amendment was agreed to.
The remaini:lg clauses and the preamble were agreed to,
and the house resumed.
NEWS PAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—The
committee will remember that when this bill was last be-
fore us a question was raised on clauses 4,5, 0, and 7,
relative to registration and securities. A discussion took
place on the structure of those clauses, and it was pointed
out that corta in inconveniences would arise under their
operation ; th.at, in certain cases, a sort of publication not
emning, within the range of the original acts would be in-
cluded, and th::t, in certain other cases, particular publi-
cations that di l come within the operation of th 3 original
acts would be f .xcluded. I felt that these remarks had in
them some fon ndation ; and, though the clauses referred to
I were framed n n the principle of removing penalties and
:securing the obligation of registration and goanritios

SUrsi„ LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 1, 1855,

merely by de operation of seeking stamps, I thought
it was better to reconsider the matter, and accordingly
asked the committee to postpone the clauses and report
progress. Ihave since reconsidered the matter, and, after
the best consideration I can give cm the subject, I have come
to the conclusion that, on the whole, it will ho the safer
course for me not to interfere with the existing law, but
simply to leave it as it now stands with respect both to
registration and securities. These will be applicable to all
newspapers, according to the terms of the act ; and, though
we shall certainly leave in operation the difficulty which
the Board of Inland Revenue has found as to the interpre-
tation of the word " newspaper." that difficulty will be
considerably diminished when the operation of the com-
pulsory stamp is removed. Ido not think the state of the
law will be altogether satisfactory ; but, on the whole, I
am disposed to stand on the existing law, and allow it to
be enforced by penalties. I therefore propose to omit
clauses 4,5, and 7, and, with regard to clause 6, which
shall remain, I shall propose some verbal alterations re-
quired by the omissions that are to take place.
On the question that the 4th clause be omitted,
Mr. G. BUTT said, he understood the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to mean that he intended the law as to regis-
tration and giving security to remain applicable to all
newspapers. By the bill as it stood before the Govern-
ment intended to confine the obligation of registering and
giving security to those particular publications that chose
to avail themselves of the postal advantages proposed to be
given ; but the effect of the omission of this clause, as he
understood it, would be to relieve particular publications
from that obligation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—AII par-
ticular publications that are not newspapers.
The clause was then ordered to be struck out of the bill ;
as was also clause 5.
Clause 6 was agreed to, with certain verbal alterations.
Clause 7 was struck out of the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, honed
now to propose the clause of which he had given notice,
limiting the retransmission by post of periodical pub-
lications. He proposed this clause as being a reasonable
limitation in the right of retransmission. In practice it
was found that persons in possession of newspapers, and
wishing to send them to a distance, transmitted them by
post merely to be used as waste paper, and without any
view of their being read. The privilege of unlimited trans-
mission led to large quantities of waste paper being thus
sent by post ; the right of transmission was abused, awl
additional cost was thrown upon the conveyance of papers.
He therefore proposed the reasonable limit of 15 days.
Mr. G. BUTT directed attention to some confusion
which he feared would arise under the act as it was now
proposed to stand, owing to the adoption in different
clauses of the terms " periodical publication" and " news-
paper," when the same thing was meant. He did not
oppose the clause, but he thought that it would be neces-
sary slightly to alter the language, in order to make the
different parts of the bill harmonise.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
would no doubt be necessary carefully to examine and
compare all the clauses of the bill. He did not think that
there was any error in the present clause, but he was much
obliged to the hon. and learned gentleman fur drawing his
attention to the subject.
Mr. SPOONER inquired whether it was intended to
give the right of transmission and retransmission through
the post as frequently as one chose within the 15 days ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
it was; but beyond 15 days from the date of publication
no newspaper would be entitled to the pritilege of trans-
mission through the post. If the period of 15 days were
thought too limited it might be extended.
The clause was then read a second time, and was or-
dered to be added to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER next pro-
posed clause B, for determining how questions as to pe-
riodical publications should be decided. It provided that,
so far as referred to their transmission through the post,
the question should. be referred to the determination of
the Postmaster-General, whose decision, with the consent
of the Treasury, should be final.
The clause was agreed to.
Clause C, relating to the manner in which warrants and
consents of Treasury were to be given, was abandoned.
Upon clause 1), which providd that actions or suits
might be carried on in the name of the registered pro-
prietors of newspapers on behalf of themselves and co-
proprietors,
Mr. G, BUTT said he thought, if the right hon. gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider the
laws which were applicable to this class of subjects
generally, that he would come to the conclusion that
this was a clause which ought not to be adopted. It
contained a provision which was perfectly new to the
law of the country, and if it were adopted it would
apply to no other publication except a newspaper, because
no other publication was required to be registered. The
effect of the clause was to enable the registered pro-
prietors of newspapers to sue in their own mattes, with-
out joining all the parties in the concern as plaintiffs
in the action. But upon what principle was this to be
done? If there were a firm of booksellers they must
all be joined, and what reason was there for taking
the proprietors of newspapers out of the operation of the
law as it stood? The proposition which was now before the
committee wes not properly analogous to that contained in
the Joint Stock Act, which enabled proprietors in com-
panies where there were many partners, upon registering
themselves and continuing to register any alteration in the
firm as it arose, to sue in the name of the registered officer.
That act also provided, if the registered officer failed in his
suit and judgment went against him, that it would be a
judgment against all the partners in the concern ; so that
if the registered officer were a pauper all the partners would
be, as thy ought to be, amenable for the judgment obtained
against them in the name of their registered officer. In the
present case, however, there was no such provision, and the
clause standing therefore in the isolated position in which
it did was clearly contrary to every principle of existing
law, and to every act of Parliament which had ever been
passed for giving facilities to parties for seeing and being
sued. Suppose that a newspaper were the property of six
proprietors, what reason could there be for exempting them
from the responsibility of their ownership? Of course he
spoke not of the respectable newspapers in the metropolis
and throughout the country, the registe? cd proprietors of
which would, no doubt, be answerable for any judgment
which might go against them ; but he would take the case
of smaller publications, in which it might be convenient
to register as the proprietors persons who had no funds
whatever, while there were other partners in the concern
who might he capable of answering any judgment which
!night be obtained against them ; and he said That, under
the clause as it was proposed, there were no means of meet-
ing such a case. The General Joint Stock Act, ith and
Bth of Victoria, chap. 110, contained proper provisions for
doing justice, and rendered it necessary for every change
in the firm, the addition of every new partner, and
the ceasing of a man to be a partner to be registered ;
and the public officer was obliged once a-year to make
a return of every and all such alterations. Ho must
give in a list of the whole of the proprietors, and should
any alteration be made in the period which elapsed
between the times of making the generel returns it was
duly noted. It was provided, too, by the Joint Stock
Act that a suit should not abate by reason of the death of
the plaintiff, for the reason that he was merely the nominal
plaintiff, and a judgment was in effect a judgment against
the whole of the pat ties concerned, so that a sufficient re-
medy was given. But here there was a palpable omission.
The right hon. gentleman could not have known the state
of the law ; for if he had intended to adopt the law to be
found in the Bank Act, or the Joint Stock Act, he had so
worded the clause as to render it entirely ineffective, and
would enable a paper which was stetted for the purposes of
piracy, or as a vehicle for slander, to register a nominal
man, who would sue and be sued, and the consequende
would be that the defendant would be without remedy.
There was no principle of law which, if a debt were duo,
for instance, on a bill of exchange to newspaper proprie-
tors, would enable one party to sue, when if a respect-
able firm, composed of six persons, had a debt due from
a newspaper proprietary, they would all be obliged to
join in the slit. The clause was not so worded as to do
justice between parties who might be plaintiffs and de-
fendants in a suit, and any hon. gentleman conversant
with the law would tell the right hon. gentleman that such
a principle was totally unknown to it, and was now for the
first time imported into the house. At present proprietors
of newspapers were registered for the purpose of giving
facilities to the pursuer in fixing the parties in cases of
libel ; but the registration of a portion of them did not
hinder him from joining the whole of the proprietors in the
suit if he pleased. On these grounds he submitted that
the clause was not a proper one, and moved its rejection.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at
present the registered proprietors were subject to legal pro-
ceedings, and might be made defendants to any civil action.
Mr. G. BUTT.—Not to civil actions. It relates to
actions for libel, and not for debt.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—At all
events they were subject to criminal proceedings, and it
had been represented to him as a hardship that, while they
were thus subject, individually, to be made defendants, no
relative right was given them of seeing. Any two regis-
tered proprietors were subject to a judgment in an action.
He apprehended that the principal persons registered
would be the printer and publisher, and no doubt they
would have sufficient funds to give security for costs. The
object of this clause was to place them in the same position
with regard to slicing as that in which they were when
they were being sued.
Mr. G. BUTT again explained that the provision of re-
gistration did not limit the right of parties to sue the re-
gistered proprietors only, in cases of contract. They might
if they pleased, sue all the proprietors. It was, therefore,
impossible that this clause could be supported on any prin-
ciple of law, and he trusted that the right hon. gentleman
would not press it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
was a clause in which the Governmenthad no interest what-
ever, but it had been suggested with a view of doing away
with a hardship existing under the present law. He had
no objection to postpone its further consideration till the
third reading.
The clause was then postponed.
Mr. WHITESIDE inquired whether any determination
had been come to with respect to the registration ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Those
clauses have been withdrawn for the present. I now beg
to move the clause which proposes to give the protection of
a copyright of 24 hours on certain articles in newspapers.
The present copyright in its interpretation clause includes
newspapers, and it certainly appears to have been the in-
tention of the Legislature in passing that act t o ivee full
benefit of copyright to newspapers as well as g
to all other
classes of printed publications. But the clauses introduced
into that act seem to have been formed principally with re-
ference to encyclopaedias, reviews, magazines, periodicals,
and works of larger bulk and less frequent publication than
daily or weekly newspapers, and imposed certain conditions
with respect to copyright which cculd scarcely have been ful-
filled in the case of newspapers, and therefore practically
nullified the benefits which the act appeared to concede to
them. Inasmuch, however, as it has been imputed to the
Government that in introducing this measure, which affects
large daily newspapers, conferring upon the public great
good by collecting and diffusing intelligence at great ex-
pense through all parts of the world, it gives facilities for
pirating the information they contained, and disseminating
it without any cost—inasmuch as it has been charged upon
the Government that they wished to encourage a dishonest
course of that sort, and having had no such intention,they
feel it incumbent to lay before the house a clause like the
present, in which a copyright is given to the articles in news-
papers,and is remedy for the infringement of that copyright.
The model of this Cheap remedy already exists in the art
with respect to the copyright of desigts, which has received
the sanction of Parliament. I am free to admit that if
this clause should be rigidly or vexatiously enforced by the
leading metropolitan newspapers, the rights which have by
consent hitherto been exercised by the London evening and
weekly newspapers, and by the country newspapers, would
be materially abridged. It is undoubtedly true that the
intelligence, the reports of the debates in this and the
other House of Parliament, the reports of proceedings in
courts of justice, the reports of the transactions at public
meetings and on other public occasions, which are obtained
at a considerable cost by the proprietors of the leading
metropolitan journals, are transcribed into other papers
pimply by the were process of copying, and without any

-----010°
----------------.......,---- n ~00 c lilt
. _._
expenditure of money. That practice has grown up and proper tribunal for the trial of questions of this kind. If l not those who pursued it bona ficle..l3,9cl3ill7ing llt
,I'; corleitrii
has been acquiesced in by the principal newspapers for a there were a summary jurisdiction there mast also be a boldly and openly before the 714 setielest asllereQ,
long series of years ; and it certainly would be a consider- power of appeal ; but he supposed no one would wish an arid reputation due to thent for behhel shied be P.'lo
able detriment to the public at large if any attempt should appeal to be given to the Quarter Sessions. He was not buted, instead of IneanlY skulking
tool
cenclv, solocr°o
now be-made to abridge the rights thus conceded by prat- sure that the county courts would not be the best tribunate anonymous writing ? The nob
tics ; but it is not my belief that the leading London news- for the purpose, as there would be an appeal from them to posing the insertion after the Irrisdoelatiitnirc'ttbae:)Pecei.ui:
papers would seek to exercise the powers which this clause the superior courts, and by those courts the principles upon abridgment of the same," of a Pirs°rvticles, lorVed to Itir,
would confer in any harsh and oppressive mariner. (Hear.) which the law was to be administered would be settled. He tion of the clause to such origivae .
eod pub .
eaf ere
The proprietors of newspapers, like other persons in this regretted that the Chancellor `of the Exchequer had not munications, La, as were
country, live under the influence of public opinion. Tho h ters with t or P
roosed a newsaper code ; but as the house would by the true nemes of the wri , .
(); Wholly.
Dot
newspapers, to a great extent, act as the guides of üblic thisthisactgreat ofopinion,peculiarly
hoped, however •t'. bl the '
amenable to the influence of public opinion, and it is not clause,
ha
imprac lea e. ey. might think this the public policy of such:countres., ,_,,. lord lota
use that they would not reject the principle upon which The CHAIRMAN sale
ee lira .it
my belief, looking to the manner in which the principal it was founds namely, that some protection ought to be move his proviso until the cones
. Jost
metropolitan newapers are conducted, that their pro- given to newspaper proprietors, who expended much money the clause should be read a seco.n.4_tig;re apraeoef tei3O%'
prietors would seek by a harsh, novel, or oppressive use of and much trouble for the service of the public. The SOLICITOR-GENERA:I-fa ,es queellai; bas.,o,,
the powers of this clause to prevent that transcription of Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE agreed with the hon. and considerable difficulties involved le ta, it aorllacjaisc!ill
intelligence from their columns which practice has hitherto learned member for Enniskillen in thinking that it was paper copyright;
sanctioned. My belief is that this clause would merely be impracticable to establish a copyright in news. One argu- very improper if mY right hon. I"
t atteniptedl'apoitoo
brought into use in cases where a newspaper might be set ment advanced by the hon. and learned member for Bath measure like the present, had 130., _ di,eu9Se6 reseotSg}
up with the deliberate intention of pirating the principal in favour of the present clause hed certainly astonished it. The subject is one which shoulders
of aisre4,oa ; ,0
newspapers, and of transferring into its columns intelli- but, at the satne tanheetal, is ;
,toitiet„i
_roi
him-namely, that they might trust to the moderation of merits, and stiipped of all that shout . le,naulge.,..Tlo, iro.
Bence, articles of original composition, and other cern- the proprietors of newspapers that they would not exercise. in which leen. gentlemen delight "4 the ca'aeJefebscir
rnumeations, ultimo fgrandi -with the deliberate into- the right they might acquire by this bill in a rigorous spirit. There is nothing SA all about news bate been 00, c,Jiri4
which entireil it
oe/ thl
tion of making the profits of the newspaper depend on such He knew it was the fashion to praise the press, butt e very these humorous statements
ill-gotten gains. Under these circumstances it was desir- much doubted whether, in the exercise of power, e Pro- sent that the chaise is directed
able that a cheap, quick, and certain remedy should be prietors of newspapers displayed 3 spirit which showed whereas it is directed to anothero•niafiltlltallioieerit'itoure,ie,ello
afforded to those newspaper proprietors whose intelligence them to be exceptional to their species- But, io additidn to put his finger upon that por!it r
of cane ' a eatee
was So taken from them. The right hon. gentleman con- to the objection to the clause on principle, the house must present day in which, as a n'at'
4 fto that wlilet liesa ij 0,
eluded by moving that the following elenee-bo inserted in see that it was totally objectionable in respect to its prac- take a just pride, he might poor. , f
os tee ht es toe
the bill :- aced operation. It not only provided against the pirating ephemeral literature of the dayifani , he
.0„11,8 0;0
" The proprietors of every newspaper shall, for the purpose a whole article, but also against " any colourable ahridg- less deserving of encouragement
ad seeierlii'os, Pr,
of -protection against piracy, be entitled to a copyright in ment of the same." Now, it would require the most cri- the greatest labour, expenses e_e, e desire , pre)) all!
every original article, letter, paragraph, communication, and tied mind to describe what a colourable abridgment of a upon these !retirees of informationu_a
any
oa, teta,,J4
composition which shall be for the first time published in newspaper article was. What was a newspaper ? An ephe- to ask themselves this questio
_iaaropesat.,vl„,, A
vil's,r;
such newspaper ire this country ; and if any person shal, meris, an insect of the day, which, having performed all deny that, as soon as the Chafe by i'd,y bY 7jog tu er,e,
within 24 hours after the first publication of ally original its functions, in a few hours disappeared. It could not effected, he does not expect thnstaraPea' P Presenedir
article, letter, paragraph, communication, or composition in for a moment be put on the footing of great works-such • publications will issue forth le
___es 'tee
Dot„. fe , ai
any such newspaper, print and publish any copy of such origi- as those of poets, orators, and historians. To place on the - whatever, and feeding entiarsetyanigateorcittiol
nal article, letter, paragraph, communication, or composition, same level with the writings of the hon. member for Edin- lished newspapers ? I will
whether i.. 3 file rtberotill
or alteration of the same, such person shall for every such Berlin would be most preposterous. or twee- . q 0') toO, I
offence forfeit a sum of not less than 51., nor exceeding 3ut., Mr. BENTINCK entirely agreed with the hon. and few hours-probably within one., carteial the l'eo.t,
to the proprietors of the newspaper against whom such offence learned gentleman who had just spoken as to the want of tion of the London nevispaPThtioes which eti,i3Og
there will be established newsPr Otte lO
has been committed ; audit shall be lawful for the printer or force in the argument advanced by the Chancellor of the portent articles and commun!?'t labour W3OO to ae„
publisher of such last-mentioned newspaper, on behalf of the Exchequer-namely, that he was prepared to trust to the press has gathered with infinite aeon air% baboi 7
proprietors thereof, to recover such penalty by a summary pro- good feeling of the editors of newspapers in carrying out (Hear. hear.) 'My attention he '-' T
a. nce - ,C,rer C l'ojf
ceeding before a stipendiary magistrate who has, or two justices this clause. -Without reverting to the able remarks of the ject from the Personal
who have, jurisdiction where the party offending resides, who hon. and learned member for Enniskillen, who, he believed, three years ago there was
__,.,,aerlY „a sva or ,e
exPestaarted 3 iv"- or ji $t
tra worolote, i 0
shall issue a summons requiring such party to appear on a had shown that the clause could never be practically car- Politician, which appeared
day and at a time and place to be named in such summons tied into effect, he thought there was another ground of half-past nine o'clock in
That vapor cuoesest'ile o,:is
(such time not being less than two days from the date thereof); objection to the clause. He could not understand on what for the breakfast table.
elorrung ned'6ll,ere ';.
and every such summons shall be served on the party offend- ground any man was to claim a copyright in an anonymous the leading articles in •the asiock, 6,0 pal's
ing, either in person or. at his usual place of abode =of, article in a newspaper. The laaeof copyright applied to lished within five and seven a of Weil teseae,d
bodX
_tee' vwes g,Pbr•rii
either upon the appearance or the default to appear the works of durable interest, or, at least, to works on some important articles and stateraen_
_tit pre dillyt,,
party offending, such magistrate or juitices may proceed to independent and continuous subject, the authors of which newspapers combined in a
hear the complaint ; and upon proof of the offence, by con- were known ; and he thought it impossible to legislate on but from the state of the lave t,1341 it colon ofttiep
fession, or upon the oath of one or more credible witnesses the same principle with respect to such works and to effecting that object, and I think proPe'iteeVetvear
(which oath such magistrate and justices are respectively ephemeral and anonymous articles in newspapers. It was complised. Now, what is the
two per
roe •00.40
hereby authorised to administer), may convict the offender absurd to say that there was any copyright possesied by pr - hon. friend ? It is divided into, thee tt° a 00t 00,
in a penalty of not less than 51. or more than 301., as to such my rief!, the re* near w"V prietors of newspapers in articles appearing in their journals of coypright which it gives, and lion. fon, tlo foli
magistrate or, justices may seem fit ; and if the amount of when they all knew that in nine cases out of ten they were applies. I agree with
such penalty and the cost of the proceeding, which shall be not written by the proprietors. But while he considered it for Manchester with regard
awso it. rewire, 41
assessed by such magistrate or justices, shall not be forthwith objectionable to attempt to enforce a copyright in deal may be said in oppositio tssoyereabout °00,05,
paid, the same shall be levied by distress and sale of the goods the case of newspapers, when they had no possible means same may be said of every' PraTsieed 'ih'et Of 00 V,
and chattels of the offender, and such magistrate or justices of ascertaining in whom such a right existed, he still re- plish that which cannot be Ye. the he'e'ealite se
shall grant warrants accordingly." tamed a strong opinion against the whole measure. He of much that we have beea it:roropt, Nation a' eir,l,
Mr. WHITESIDE was of opinion that the proposed believed the inevitable result of it would be to produce as necessary to justice. Al in proP°:iligviiitbe
_,' ,
clause would not accomplish the object which the right hon. such a revolution in the newspaper press that for the sake mical remedy is desired, shitil of thect'aithe eeslei
gentleman had so clearly explained-namely, to protect of the public and for the sake of the respectable portion of this we must give up much of
enu" in the
Itit'le' 6
the rights of the proprietors of the principal newspapers. the newspapers themselves, it wouldbe absolutely necessary we have been accustom a.
~s saitaieel sites ca
In that object ho (Mr. Whiteside) entirely concurred, but to make new laws altogether on the subject of the press. ministration of justices at:vary ofiltaapoteeelo
it was to the clause to be moved by the hon. member for If this bill passed into a law they ought to require a signs- there shall be a property.ina, od . -every 1',0000,4$
Pontefract that he should give his support, being of opinion ture to every article in order to determine who were the paragraph, communication,
,isbed 10,_, reveite",
that it was unjust to visit with restriction any journal-he responsible persons, and thereby maintain th,e stability
.of shall be for the first time Ps 'l4sta-tette:tee criss 1 e
did not care what journal it might be-on account of its the respectable portion of the press, and counteract the in- this country. This clauseer
_h Thiel_ 2.11108_, A
success. He regarded, therefore, the clause of the hon. undation of mischievous papers which must inevitably it introduces the wora "le w
shall withilue, lett; ollotr
member for Pontefract more as a matter of benefit to the follow Bitches law. He believed, from all the information offence :-'` If any person. i
ei erties e l'atici6k
community than to any particular paper. But haled cfessed he had been able to acquire, that the effect of this law would first publication of any °TlsCi7O, in _itiosi or 01,11
that it appeared to him that the house was now caled on by be to ruin the whole of the respectable portion of the country communication, or comPo such er.'lo3, 00°10,0
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do what was never Press. Without refereing to the discreet or indiscreet use print and publish any c°PY ofer Goo°slo,oo'o fir9ool
done before-to limit the blessings of printing, and stifle required from the proprietors of London papers of the power paragraph, communication, .' sae eof tbooe efi
the electric telegraph as far as possible. (Haar, hear.) oe that would be vested in them, he believed that the respect- •terial part thereof, or arlY c°,lli, egad died o°l4
this he was satisfied, however, that the clause was wholly able portion of the country press would cease to exist- tion of the same." No'c' s'certai°" rgef 'l'll°4l
impracticable. He agreed in the argument used by the a press which in some plicee, in point of talent and circa- with the original is to be a
and to lag, seito 19,1 ii
right hon. gentleman, and which had been used elsewhere, lation, equalled the press of London, and that in their is now ascertained with reghe identl If .pi aori
that a newspaper, though it did not invent news,yet some- stead they would have au inundation of small publications publications-namely,, by is is medeeof t1a5,01/0' l'i
times he should say otherwise-he laugh)-though it dot not which would beecorne the curse of the country. in which the communication
sei teas
~, te_iii 40
invent the facts which occurred at Vienua, if any facts did Mr. GIBSON did not think that the hon. and learned ' the oriinal communicationnin`so oesiat :a Ir 1./
occur there-(laughter)-still it carried the intelligence member for Bath had advanced any great argument in fa- are sod plainly identical s.eursistalsePooe 'Atteof,,Ur
with great speed and industry, and with his consent it your of the clause now before the committee. He remem- other that it j irepossible.tu the eve
... c0a1t10,4,20'
should be paid, if that were possible, for its extraordinary bored the right hon. gentleman the member q.t. Bucking- mon-sense case criterion
had
bee:a frio,corii,,4
diligence and speed in carrying facts. But, what was the hamshire once made an observation to the hon. and learned as to the fact of piieeY n„,a 1050 s ill'i lof 14
member thee he liked -his principles and admired his surprised! to find
meaning of a copyright in news he could not imagine.
News must exist, and halt-a-dozen men migh, carry news speech, but he could not vote for his resolution. So the for Leominster putting Ili if m 9 11',°1 eral°o al'4
from Vienna, but one might carry it more rapidly than hon. and learned gentleman now said he liked copyright able abridgment," because, ee woe
eeaie arreatet
nes, h_olesefingor upo
0. 5,3,
tiojoe,,,,
another, and the prop &lion should be to pay the parti- in newspapers, and approved the policy of the Chancellor is conversant with the law, tt:00, eTioe,llo),Q4.i,
cuter journal which, by zeal and activity, got the news of the Exchequer, but that he did not like his plan. But the words which enter into r. The rtebt sootio,.;;;
that was the very question the committee had to consider. it now stands on this suecT6
the soonest into this metrophis. He a twitted that origi-
nal articles of great ability appeared in the principal news- The question before the committee was not a mere ques- right hon. friend (Mr. Mniw from an Jett:jai%
papers, but it was a complement to quote them-(a laugh) then of abstract justice, but of practical policy. A gen- objectao, since it is t",kei. tieb)-ILet e„' too,/
ibsoul sat fr'' O, 'l.
-and a testimony to the talent aud ability with which tlenian was examined before the committee who, he be- chester Protectionist-t e 'll,coerlttiabbe Oa
they were written. But it might be said that original lioved, was at that time editor of the Dai'y News. He 'lament brought in to prote
_a soieeesco tile, f
stated that the proprietors of that journal had reason to Yet you have no
articles were not so mach the matter of transcriptions as
, the striking descriptions of the Battle of Inkerinan and complain that, after they had been at great expense for magistrate or _woo ustices :while Y,,orttiotoeht
other battles inserted in two of the metropolitan journals, the transmission of Indian news, the country papers had tion of copyright deslfth the °Ai p'l, 041:t
written, he was happy to say, by two of his couutrymen taken it from them without any acknowledgment, and he trusting these justices rea
solao ciao be c i, 0
and which were pirated ; and in Dublin the clubs received thought that a short copyright would put an end to such what every man of CO i'vetegorteabl
telegraphic despatches conveying the substance of any practices ;or that, at any rate, their permission should be of a paragraph or article allows_ ea lescaoesadeile
aeticle of interest in an hour or an hour and a half after it obtained. He (Mr. Gibson) recognised a sort of abstract, lowing them to say whetuonfr tbe oneibt kcooot.
was written. But how was that to be stopped ?Of all the justice in this claim, but he was perplexed as to how they or whether the language r that i"Dire'ie"la
extraordinary devices which ever entered the head of a were to act upon it. Before Parliament made a law to preach to that of the otbelauraele
_. colt at
financier for effecting that object this clause certainly was meet an evil, it ought to be satisfied that' the evil was of piratic,' abridgment °
or of
tybe peaceeseou t?
the most extraordinary. Whether one man had stolen the sufficient magnitude to make a remedy necessary. The think that any justice et er °e eleala
difficulty
ore
tube ,
oil
poiti
et
osi
the Pr°P ss wi e e e
ideas of another was often a difficult question to determine electric telegraph of which the hon. member for Stoke-upon- duty, and that this is ~_w to pa ,0 ill. Dos iii,
with respect to a literary work ; but when several men had Trent was chairman, was charged that very day in the Times the present state of the I'venient .`faeorthotee
obtained any particular fact at Vienna, and the editors with acts of a piratical character,by sending news extracted to introduce some imP'..°ahe hca',a,r, thie rote
of newspapers had commented on that fact, then the from the Times tb the local papers in the provinces. Ho the law. I think my .1.1( howe'ests 0° etee
question would arise whether one had stolen it from the would leave it to his hon. frier). I. to explain to the house more than his duty. J',.'ve 00'4 eo c°t, ft
other ; and according to this clause the editors of the Era- the proceedings that had taken place under his presidency. rally think that the pl;,-;0 donviii rot lot,. •
miner, the Spectator, and the Press-all men of great talent But it appeared to him strange that if this operation was proceed further, he wil" out, an`laer tbseee'ale
-might be pulled up by the neck before a magistrate to of so oppressive a nature the London morning papers suggested the improver% that aost hen. 003,,
find out whether they had stolen their ideas from the eiti- should now come forward for the first time to ask for Lord STANLEY 031.4 a al° oiot e'aette,'er
tor of the Times or the editor of the Morning Chronicle. a remedy. He should like to know whether the house Solicitor-General, it Wa°a"o real P.,„inel
til."00,11 01/ ,
Then, to try the question, there had been selected through- would have heard anything about it if it had not bsea for tinue the discussion. "'‘,. eedf,olls I°,oll
the Newspaper Stamp Bill? If a copyright was proper to distinction between Ina in 'o' °tor,
out the country curious literary tribunals, and he must ex-
p,
biers his desire that Ireland should be exempted from the be had the proprietors of newspapers ought to have it had admitted a copyrigheer.). ;031 01%c
bill, for much as he respected the stipendiary magistrates, whether there was a stamp duty or not. The provincial anonymOusly. (Hear, ''-f erlglo ill; ,'„
preee papers took as much now from the London papers us they there might be a pirac° of ,„,1 t3l :2f. ,
' he should be indisposed to place at their control the
of this country. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to find were ever likely to take; and if it were necessary that they hand, it Was arguell 'iiiell '-t tlie`-04,
men so unfit for the duty proposed to be imposed on them. should be punished for that offence after this bill should be making public of thata:t" subjec iietla tat'
,
He was not speaking disrespectfully of theen-(a laugh)- passed, it was equally necessary that they should be pun- subject of copyright. 'l°i ey 0' reela ,•9
for they were never intended to decide questions of copy- ished now. But this clause was in reference to the pirates by a leg'slative enactment!''tbe coiled. oied
right. It appeared to him that every, provincial editor, who were to come. They were looming in the distance. between the statement anti fova' ibe ilOoif
unless that merciful and charitable feeling adverted to Let us wait and see whether they came or not, He was the fact upon which it Wa,s ,e, ae'litteid
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer should enter one of those who did not believe that there was this great tempt to solve that pron'eas eel%i rower9e,ao
into the minds of the London editors, might army of pirates approaching against the London press. He absolutely insoluble. It,We-origies see,' ocl
find himself taken before a magistrate, who might was therefore prepared to abide his time, and see whether could be given where ,14.,.0 there reef 'tliej
easily be satisfied of the Yielation of copyright, and flue the emergency was so imminent as to necessitate this copied worcd for word. no toil" star)
press might• great change in their legislation. He doubted whether, upon, bat if they trusted
_bee crayirhaq
him from Si. ta 301., and thus the provincial
easily be suppressed Thu copyright of designs had been practically, it would be possible to accomplish the pro- identity of ideas upon l'..'re 01PIii tli" No( 4,
adverted to, but he was not aware himself of any analogous tection proposed for a narration of facts. (Hear, hear.) general interest which weaerods a..eotiec'etil , I
provision to the one proposed, and the propositions to give It appeared to him from the article in the Times news- meet the minds of hue,rest ierdepetet
up men's minds and ideas to the judgment of police tuagis- p aper of that morning that they had great doubts they might be doing l'ersoes iii
-e eil'e°' V
trates was intolerable. If this clause were te be enforced, themselves whether the bill would be of any practical be- often it happened that p,_ilt bOO.OO
eg),,p
let it 'be enforced by a more competent tribunal there . nett to them. If it would be of no benefit to them-they as the experience of I:J....fame/latest, 1:019
might not be much objection to the tribunal which was now being the p reties who made the largest expenditure for out the same line of sees? (Ilea 9_l te; 4;
the greatest in the land, he meant a county court. Ques- . news-it was clear that neither they nor any other London much in the same wOrs'i'seeisbwrrgillalae
tions of copyright might then ba suewitted to juries, which proprietors cared much about it. Indeed, they as much as could be devised of disesiseaot ocoibotool. ,f ;
were generally disposed to take a lenient view in such cases, said that if the halfpenny tax were only removed from their what was and what livem ial it ~b' a'
but it would be out of, the question that two stipendiary second supplements the other newspapers might plunder present appeared to ihi o. Aseactl v!
magistrates in Ireland, or two county justices in E IgNoti them as much as they pleased. Thus by the by the Morning have supported the '-'."
c perfectly icaVro tbeavoCrif
should be allowed to decide whether a local journal, to the Chronicle, the Daily News, and all the other morning con- Vie clause would be 40 wo A
politics of which they might he oPPosed, had invaded the teniperaries, it appeared, might be plundered as well as law. that ", be tilla9
copyright of a London journal. The right hon. gentleman themselves, if the cheap postage of ld. for anysizeor weight Mr. MILNES hope the dos
ot,
tb
would not be able, and he ought not, to carry a clause were granted to the Times. Only concede this boon, and Exchequer withdrew
illa (le° iiidad° ,
to that effect. Did the right hien- gentleman intend to they would bid defiance to piracy. This apprehension of an assurance that he of reconac 009 09
therefore, could not be very well founded. The edi- to devising
include the preys of Ireland ? That was a question which piracy,some mode 0.,,e,„ per of
he might call a puzzler. '(A. laugh.) Would it not be ter of the Daily News, in his evidence, stated that nobody this point. There were heratiee ,
hard that a London newspaper should not be looked into could complain if a provincial paper announced, as a fact, their hearts that some °'' Was),
for 10 or 12 hours after its arrival in Dublin, for fear any that a London journal said so awl se. Now, here was a needed. _ii_ to 50 4
reat e' Oil 'OP f
one might extract the intelligence it contained ? Evan if copy of the " morning express," which was sent down to Mr. FOX said, the g lose es
,iiel cb ,ii.
the Dublin newspapers published intelligence of their own Manchester that day by the hon member for Stoke- omission of some such ca.. pres_r 00, io..
in the morning, a question would arise whether it heel not upern-Trent's (Mr. Ricardo's) company. and which thelestablishmentof aellea'a 1.0 e,, 004 fOl,
been stolen from a London morning paper, and would was described us piratical :-" 9a.m., April 30. The Post existing newspapers, w:_oe thel:aer, tll'/;s:
have to be determined bY a lh=4,lee magistrate. His view ' believes that despatches were received on Friday from Ge- journals, and would destaff.o.o.oo for,ofii,of,
was that it would be right for toe
to protect good news neral Canrobert, and, on Saturday from Lord Raglan extensive and aceurate,iii.eriptl°.,oo9:kre
and valuable commentary if they could dose-- (hear)-but through the new submarine telegraph, ❑
stating that the bora- talent of the highest ufsaibbs all9;oiogf a
of ‘0);!
they could not, and it was useless to make the attempt. hardment of Sebastopol bytheailies had not been atteuded (Hear.) It could not P°' ie obt_eer ;,iier etif Se
(Hear.) If this section passed, one body of wen, the law- with such success as tu justify an assault." Was thp state- out large suns of neolieL aietee to ,De 1
id ;
yers, and the country attorneys especially, ought to return ment that the Post thought or believee that such a des- geuce from a censidersoo too ;do' 0,1),,ii.
thanks to the house, for every newspaper in the empire patch had been received to be considered as piracy ? Well, to become the proPerVe t:erbii°.e,Pe 0,1?,11',
would be brought into a police-Office. He submitted that this was the form of the announcement generally made by interposing between tovvi,l-3,iy140100 i,!,(t
if the right hon. gentleman would remove the objection the electric telegraph. They ran thus :-" The Times says publishing it. ThePreof this,' erevoteera,,ii'.
as to weight which affected, a particular journal, he so and so-that Sebastopol had been taken," for instance. riorated by the passing ectabl,,,LronWil',:
would do well to take the advice given him a few hours (A. laugh.) These were matters, the circulation of which for of course all the re,s.Peir erPo offor:v3l ei
ago, and to leave the question of copyright as it was. it would be impossible' to stop. The London correspon- prietors eould make t
expo their if 'icrlY4'
The great journals here did not suffer so much as they dent of a country newspaper searched the contents of all papers, who went to theti peY 011Pdet,"
supposed from the grievance which it was now sought to the journals and telegraphed down to the provincial ecli: telligence. They we',l,eid he °„e4celdlio
redress, and the effect of, the right hon. gentleman's pro- for such portions of the news published in the metropolis so incurred, ands t w''. tittle° "tee ' o",llriJi
posal would be, that all the respectable provincial journals that morning as he thought fit. The provincial editor not pay should gwitetos to
of
looeseaplai
err
ei
weal perpetually be fined, and the London journals would received his intelligence from his correspondent, but known to the inhaler
was oeord; 4,ea„,
be worrie iby a law which they did not desire. He should, he did not know whence the latter had obtained it. obtaining intelligence for our best
upon these grounds, oppose the clause. (Hear, hear.) • The correspondent was a collector of the news brought original compositions ~,...t two be!eoi 01,r
Mr. PHINN said, the thsb question to be decided was, telegraphed by the Times from Vienna or elsewhere ;he considerable oust; "if heol'fesii;o; o'4
whether it was desirable that there should be a cppyright in what he read and heard ; and, therefore, to cur these heavy exPetriees'savar spercestiQi
news, when newspapers had gone to great expense and made make a provincial editor penally responsible, merely te- immediately pirated °Lla l'esrlYr be eta
great exertions to obtain it? If they thought it was desir- cause he inserted a paragraph communicated by an inde- time ago there was a ' gad; , di° 000
able they then came to the second question-whether the pendent source, and which might have appeared in large circulation bY gosferriteVlV3 '
means proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for some London morning journal, would be perfectly mon- weekly papers, and trd'aould e..see°49
that purpose ought to be adopted? The hon. andlearned strous. Again, the power of evasion would be so great pages. This no doubt weree'oliiy,
gentleman (11Ir.Whiteside had Put extreme cases ;he would that it would be impossible to enforce the law without,
betdaly papers if the stamp that I,.'br 01! ice
put a case the other way. The morning papers went to creating all sorts of vexatious litigation-a consideration a great fallingoo '" „, er 1° rete' pre,'"
more expense and madeeereater exerrions in order to collect surely forming a valid argument against any new legisla - expense for intelliger firessaa Oat irt`
intelligence than any other newspapers in the world.; they tion. Literary newspapers were, no doubt, entitled to a now characterisednootaVe sehis,. iloe 'f, 4
had agents and correspondents all over the globe, in every couright, if they contained series of letters-" Mrs Cam- balence every adv tamp a dtot vote
greats capital, and in many of the secondary towns, and the dles Curtain Lectures," foram stance-(laughter)e-or any the repeal of the s
fisery t ttilit;a ogee
English public were supplied with news very often long other, provided the proprietors registered those particular did render it nee ,nd 104 set fi)
before her Majesty's Government were prepared to com- compositions, which, being produced from the mind'of amount of cap pwse't bo '0004;,,,,,
municate it to the house. The Times, or the Morning some individual, were entitled to tha same protection as establishment of a 11;geure":;00,ireWe'
do
..,a jo
tili4l,4c,
Chronicle, or the Morning Herald, might be obtained at books. The right,. however, to narrate a fact, when that displayed in its
b 0
6in the morning, and by half-past Bor 9 a newspaper fact had been previously narrated by somebody else, was a this, all would be Pe AOr :Cr, VoAO 'if lljO'
might be circulated through London, containing all the totally different thing. It was •to be' hoped, there- had been said of th f.:aurael-,it'fcetllla
leading articles, and the chief intelligence, political, Eta. fore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, seeing the very sorry to see 011 F Jai eoPeigoloot ofo,', i
nary, and legal, published in those journals, at about one- difficulties incident to the subject which had occurred to either in news, the
ad' oivlcof li,l 9;14t
third of their cost. Was not this a great wrong, and ought the house, and considering that the danger sought to be conduced to the v; iiii to 0 0000,„
it not to be redressed ? (Hear.) Would not the hon. mem- guarded against was altogether prospective, would consent hear.) -With rer% esire (3° bet ire" !'
dl, bi f° rI ii'
her for Manchester exclaim against spring patterns in cot- to postpone, for the present at least, the extension of a generally from se7 adopt° 00 rfo rtitiolio
ton being pirated, and offered to the London houses at half copyright to newspapers. such a system vats rogOi„etlie rOp it'l'
their proper price ?He admitted that the morning papers Lord LOVAINE said that this was the first time in the nience of those sr „ale teeot fa° tie", ,
might exaggerate the grievances under which they suffered, history of this country when a copyright was asked for were made to o•oPee;ieg P forFieose t'ffele;
but the effect of a system of piracy such as he had described articles of the most ephemeral description, which were tor or
would be to dinainieh their circulation, to lessen the object written one day and forgotten the next ; and certainly it person. It
propriet°r '-ot he 0,04 ea
must haleotienogreoliecleleie
for which they incurred expense and made exertions, and the press of our day needed this protection it must have , " Junius were enny,, Ittl,4„ie Pe 1041060,,,
so to diminish the value of the article which they supplied become weaker than it used to be. Recollecting what the as were the haters of crab Or_ 04,11 i,,
to the public ; he was now, therefore, pleading for daily newspapers assumed to be their functions, how they had also produced wyruas it get Or 0.P034 big
the public rather than for the proprietors of newspapers. controlled, or attempted to control, Minieaers of Stateeand more recent tituesast iinPreo esesef/ap
All public men sometimes fell under thedash of the press, interfered even ie the operations of the army, affording in- had first created
attuiuct of toPa iev'er 1001'0,10'1
but he believed our newspapers were, on the whole, the formation to the enemy on points which it was of the high- • respect to the c"" airy I' ate a,ivou e e' '
best conducted in the world. God torhid that they should est importance should be conceeled from him-in which : compelled thet incishould
site, pito po id i,
ever resemble the newspapers of America. ide agreed with reprehensible practice, according to the statement of a late been for the pros% ,he c tigl! 00° idel i
~i ~ bro O.A , i
the hon. and learned gentleman that the remedy proposed Cabinet Mieister, they could not be restrained-it was unravelling all, i been tob °ens ~1 S .
by the right hon. gentleman was not a good one. He , rather curious that they. should come before the house at ,in the Crimea 13,1( r 0.04 0
oor
50,i 0 , 4
thought 24 hours was too long a period for copyright in that particular moment in the.attitude of suitors seekine a country was up' :Tess we'' tleat re' hei°l
news to continue, as six or eight hours would produce the copyright as a Protection. It was a question whether,' ' press, and ita pr,' 30j o,'lcb 1, Alt, re,cri
same practical effect. Distance as well as time was an according to the law of England, any man hart a rht in man ought to Priz.,ies whaellailee' ire ,r';
elementin the question. The London newspapers would have another's wrong ; for it was notorious that the press siren- gad to the difliel:, of Lpifl, ,f:4o;ofil.,
reason to complain if a newspaper Pirated from themselves lated calumnious accusations and vituperative charges of enforcing the ltwof tbe
o.'oes ea", yr,4
were circulated in London, but if the news contained in against individuals, who had no meansof clearing themselves The legal opponesuen Fl he, a cb°,4oopiq
them were telegraphed to the Dublin or Edinburgh news- in the eyes•of the public. Those charges were reiterat• d though why it iinaffee'bele 10,/iti'sri
papers there was no competition, and they would not el a froin day to day-some of them hoe t even been repeated in not see, since
raspct3 ,o, ofti,,lo jyti
copy the less in those places. He thought some means that house in the face of the most solemn denial ; and was a large body ef 'lips dl }::051 1'`.4,,P IV '
ought tb be adopted to repress the piracy wlaca he knew it fitting that a right of property in articles of that cbarac. Electric Telex eishuorelt'aeesl,„l,'
would be committed upon the morning journals. The boo. ter should be createdor protected? Again, magistrates by was sheet to f leo, hie
000 e t vi roe, b" 1,
member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) might shake his head, the law of this country were not allowed to settle the corn- would tell 00110" or the. sie ajosareleYi
but he (Mr. Phien) knew that preparations were at that monesaquestion of right-such matters must be refereed to it di:oenlinated ter for tn
tiolbt ei,..iil
moment being made in London to publish the principal -ajury ; and yetis a case of this importance, where the news- who collected v
l e °t`„ the le:tec VOeie it t+/
papers exercised enormous and irresponsible powers, it was communicate rte Leap,t gre,l; I 01 if jo
leading articles and the most important intellieeoce con-
posed that they shouldbe permitted to go before such he did not so 3 C!,.0 cosh 3., .'f'/ f!,
tame in the morning papers by 10 o'clock. With regard Pr°
to the means by which this grievance ought to be redressed, a summary tribunal to enforce their alleged rights. Why fit of this neevarie of tioce /ieetvielleitA
he admitted that he was not willing to devolve upon police , should not the persons whose characters were assailer] and to take advst_lebis lino, side
00119 p
magistrates a new as arduous duty for which they were aspersed_. by the press have an equal right to go before a which ceme n'''. ate ntiraidl 600:0
most inadequately paid. The Legislature was every day stipendiary magistrate, and obtain damages against the scribed it, Ire cowile st
~,etl ~irl, of ,
heaping upon public functionaries new and unpopular
_proppetor of the journal that had injured him ? of the compar'Y Ile e. firer e'lli)0. ce ia
duties which they had never contemplated when they had But, further, it was the printer or publisher of a newsPa- out the country-aewspePan theta b° Asa
accepted their The Chancellor of the Ex- per who was to sue for the penalty provided by this clause. of estieblishingaujoi lid sods ioi dg
chequer was right appointments. saing that they must trust to the hy should it na rather be the editor, the person who would inflict ati
_t rote ,0/ es, Plot
forbearance, moderationa and discretion or the pewtspaper. could prove by whom the articles the right involved in destroy the b..7..07003p.,, nottoo :,fieliot
proprietors-(cries of "oh! oh r+)-for thehefficien work-
awhich was asserted were originally furnished? This bill abolition of, tte;Dee coillr`i of 0 eavr
ing of the clauses. He believed that t. ey wou p. n?t lso proposed to relax the existing law for protecting pri- Mr. RIC 1/4
think it worth while to institute proceedings except in , vete character from the anonymous libeller. 11.,1,tr lit'o,lot 00
Journalism tained in the _ woe
the
I
cases of systematic piracy, continued week after week. in this country required the exercise of as much talent and pass withotat tsteot titv ,
• a I
There was considerable difficulty in the choice of a ability as any other profession, and why, therefore, should seemed to other •
.
iii