The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1820-06-15 00:00:00

DISTRESS IN THE SOUTH OF IRELAND.

Colonel BAGWELL tOse 10 ask the Chancellor of
of the Exchequer whether the Grover 00000 ent bad
any measure no contemplation for the relief of the
dis at present felt in the south of Ireland,
such distress as had never existed there before ?
Of fourteen banks in the south of Ireland, nine
had stopped payment, the consequence of which
was a degree of distreal absolutely incalculable.
Business was almost at a stand, sod the population
of that province were in a state of starvation, be.
cantor no (Provisions would be brought to market.—
(Hear, /sear.)—The country people found that the
circulating medium was all withdrawn, and there-
fore would bring no articles of food into the market,
knowing that if they did, they would be seized by
the populace.—(Hear, hear. i—He therefore called
on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give • fa-
vourable answer, as lie valued the very existence of
that part of the empire. He hoped to draw some
from him satisfactory to the despairing inha-
bitants of it ; and in a case so urgent and pressing,
he trusted that the result of his inquiry would be
sonic consolatory expression from the Right Hon.
which would shew that the Govern-
ment was not only disposed to afford assistance,
but had resolved ou some practical measure with
that view.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
feel himself competent to give an answer to the Hoo.
Gentleman of the chancier he desired. The Go-
vernment had not been inattentive to the subject,
but it hud felt, as he was sure the House would
feel, that there was a great delicacy to be observed
in interfering in • ease of that description. The
princiele of leaving commerce entirely free to its
own operations should always be acted on, unless in
cases of absolute necessity. Further than this be
could not say at present.
Mr. V. FiTzatiasi.o assured his Right Honour-
able Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchtquer),
that no case similar to that in question, in magnitude
arid extent of suffering, had ever been known be-
fore. If some step were not taken for its relief, he
believed the south of Ireland would be in a state of
great danger. It could not be manstained that re-
lief should be withheld by the Government on ac-
count of a commercial princiirle. Surely enough
had occurred to justify a departure front that rule.
He trusted his Right Hon. Friend would re-con•
soder the matter, slid that the opinion lie had es.
pressed would not go forth to the country.

MR. GRATTAN.

Si r Jatees M tcnan rose said, he rose for the
purpose of moving that a new writ be issued for
the election of a citizen to serve in the present Pre-
fitment for the city of Dublin, in the room of the
lisle Right Hon. Henry Grattan.—(Load cries of
" Hear," and " Order.")—He had been deputed to
this office in the absence of an Hon. Friend, whore
request he always considered to be a duty, the
Member for Waterford (Sir J. Newport), who had
been compelled to leave town in consequence of a
✓evere domestic afflictiou. He could assure the
House. that his accession to the request had not
been grounded on any hope, but was acconipm
vied by the deepest sense of his inability to do jus-
tice to the memory of that immortal tnsn.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)--He could also safely declare, that it
hid nut proceeded from any genes'sl preference or
partiality for this rnie of proceeding ; ell the con-
trary, it was his conviction that if ever it was to be
exteucled beyond due bounds, and a limited num-
ber of cases standing on peculiar grounds, it would
degenerate into • public inconveuieuce, acid he
should certainly prefer a speedy return to general
silence. Indeed, studied panegyrics were foreign
to the simplicity of our manners, and our national
habits and usages ; they seemed rather to belong to
the tinsel rhetoric of enslaved countries, who, being
deprived of the liberty of free sod manly diacuuton,
their whole strength spent itself in uudistinguishing,
fulsome, and worthless panegyric; and if ever the
practice of posthuinade harangues should become in
any degree general, lie should lament it. as incon-
sis.ent with that reserve which he consadered to be
inseparable from the minimal character. The usage
of Modern times. within *lnch this comae bad
grown ap, had confined its application to recent
&mho, whets the rfrecta of private feeling with re•
gard to the deceased were yet warm—and this, lie
thought, was wisely done; for if the tribute was to
be paid of any distance of titne from the foal event,
it would at lehgth become stotitiog more than hot-
kw Mid taypoCiitical parade. if he should ever be-
come a party to the breach of the rule, each conduct
would nut only betray a gross inconsistency, but
would convict him of baring been winding in the
rimier of gratitude and aftictiop to these whom ha
bad moat turord and boautared of all ootartb Wad-

into we presume, to the laiif Vie Se out 1".111)1' 9
after the death of whois last had remained 'silent,
and resisted the Amex wisheii of common friends
to the contrary. So much he owed to himself, to
his own reputation, and to the memory of those
now nu more, who had been the brightest ornaments
of the House, End who were entitled to the higher(
hosiours in the power of it or the country to bestow.
He should hardly think himself justifiable in Is&
droving the House in this manner in any case which
did slot possess some peculiar claims—where p►i-
vate were not united with public fereliugo—or where
the sorrow of friends did sot mingle with the re-
grets of the nation on tile loos of an individual
whose career had been connected with the trausoc.
lions and history of Parliament and the country—
he should think it unwarranted, wherever it was
reasonable to expect the diftent of any one indivi-
dual. He who followed suct► a line should ret•ol.
led, that he was speaking in the presence of poste.
rity—l Hear)—who would pronounce their own
opinion, mid possibly reverse that of the speaker.-4.
When he said that, sod mentioned the name of
Grattan, he was sure that nobody would imagine
Ware time. would Nee reason for thinking him ton
partial.—(Hear, hear.)—He had been the only per.
son in history, ■s far as he knew, certainly be was
the only individual ►n our age who received a Par-
homentary grant as a private Gentleman, and with-
out holding soy office or place, civil or Military:—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was now near forty years
since the Irish House of Commons had voted an
estate to hits and his family, not by way of recoils-
pence for his services, for no reward could be an
equivalent to them, but Si an unequal testimony
of the gratitude of his conntry. He then received
the proud distitiction of being called (in the lan-
guage of the Act by which the public sense of his
services was manifested) " the founder of the liber-
ties of his country."—(ifepeafed cheers.)•—He
found her the province, he made her the equal, sod
worthy of being the ally awl sister of England.
(Cheers.)—He conferred a Legislature. liberty,
and independence on his brave, generous, and elo.
queut countrymen.—(Hear.)—He was the only
man in the world who ever gained such a victory by
the bloodless arms of wisdom and eloquence—
( Iletie)—itod it was his singular felicity that his suc-
cess had procured him as much esteem from the coun-
try whose claims he had resisted, as from that whose
rights be advocated.—(Hear.)—To look at these
transactions in another point of view, it was known
to be impossible to contend for any great object
without giving birth to honourable enmities. Ac-
cordingly it was one of the felicities of Grattan that
he survived the event to which he had alluded forty
years--till the mellowing hand of time and the
mild influence of his venerable character and age
had softened down all other feelings into those of
admiration for his talents, and r ace of his vir-
tues—till the tribute paid to hip exertions from all
sides of the House, became. as he believed it would
be at this tune, deep. sincere. and unanimous,
(Hear.)—He had said it was wise to bestow this
homage only in cases where posterity would both
revise and confirm the judgment. It was mime's-
sary to say that Grattan would occupy 14 great space
in history,--(Hear, hear, hear.)—lino name was
blended with the history of his country during the
last fifty years.-‘(Hear.)—Fertile as Esglatid fled
been of great men during the last fifty years, rind
he believed the fertility was as great as during any
period of the same duration iu her annuls, Ireland
had more than contributed her fair proportion there-
of; but none of the illustrious names ii which she
had such reason to glory—not even that of Burke or
Wellington, had greater claims on the gratitude of
future ages, or was more certain to live in their
memory than that of Grattan.—(Cheers.,o—lt was
not his intention to introduce a single political con-
troverted question on the present occasion, or to
use one word which might provoke a difference of
opittion ; but he might be permitted to say, that
the great quessiou which had produced tl►e univer-
sal gratitude of Ireland to Grattan in the year 17851,
stood quite independent of the subsequent one of
the Union between the two commies. For hint-
self, he should say that he thought no good wits to
be obtained by that measure till the indepeu.
desire of Ireland had hem recognised—till the
two kingdoms could treat together, mid pro-
reed on equal terms.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Tn
Grattan, therefore. we owed that union of the
two countries which could alone be useful or patio-
factory to either, and which he trusted would be
eternal.—(Hear, hear.)—'I'o him Ireland owed it
that her legislators were now making laws for their.
country here, instead of receiving them from Eng-
land.—(Hear.)--There was one circumstance in
the history of Grattan which he should beg leave to
mention. He was the only man in the history of
eloquence who had attained the highest character
for eloquence in two assemblies, of tastes,. habits.
and prejudices as different, perhaps. as linty of any
two other in Europe—coufessedly the first in
his owe, country. where wit and eloquence opting
up spontaneously ; he came to this cuisiney late
in life where be had to encounter the •force
of prejudice. the still greater disadvantages of
a great name, and unreasornible expectations ;
but his genius overcame them all, and surpais-
ed even the expectations of his friends. He
would produce another circumstance of peculiarity.
whirls would serve to sliew that the course he was
pursuing was one becoming the case. This great
man died iu the discharge of a parliestrentary
thity'—not in the House, but in a public service, and
for the good of his country, to which he willingly sa-
crificed what remained of his existence. It was nut
neces►ary for him to speak of the nature of that duly;
lie did not require any man to tuudity ht. oviition
of the question connected with it. It was enough ,
far his purpose that Grattan bad risked his lift
to advance it, because he looked upon it as the
means of healing the long bleeding wounds of his
country. of diffusing harmony and union through
that island, on which lie had before conferred a
political independence. u►ad also of vindicating the
honour of the Protestant ftligiou, and wiping out a
stain,. whose erasure was necessary to complete
reformation. Such was his (Ur. Grattan's) conaci-
eutious conviction of the magnitude of the object to
which be sacrificed his life. There was one circum-
stance more, and but one, on which lie should ven-
ture to say a few words. The patbhic hime of
Grattan was without alloy-4 Hear).—he was a rare
instance of* great Man, the purity of whose life
was to be held equal to the brightness of his glory.
He one of the few in Whom private virtues, bur.

rowing a lustre from the splendour of public
ties and services, shone forth as an example to the
whole community.—(Hear.)—He as. sorry t, .0
that it had not been his good fortune in kilo hint
tills late period of his life. He hod always ohimed
simplicity to be an attribute of met, of groom, lod
among all the mew of genius who,, lo• lin.l re,
known, he could not say that he had ever
such naked grandeur of mind. deep wisdom,
bersevolenee, united te a playfulness awl .irisolirtty
almost infantile, as were obiervable to Grotto
(General eheerlr.)-71f he were to describe hi, el..
racier shortly, he thought fie might do it in 11:t
words of the ancient historian. "vita ionsoeineissisi,4
*remit; florenassinene. Oroposito tinittAinsas."
The hopes and prayers of his dying isiumeois Sere,
that all clanks of his countrymen forget
their religious and political dissesitions, soil uoii,
in harmony of feeling; his last wishes were. diet
the two islands might for ever tontine* stencil in
the bonds of affection, sod clang iodissolotsly Nth.
same Constitution;
.aud that the Legislature ••••ta
at length see the wisdom rod propriety of eap.,„t.
ing the lonvezisting stain of religious iiit;drieure.
Fussing said so much, he hoped he might amen...
without being deemed too fanciful. that the hoiso•o,
paid to Grattan hire duet his death migllt byre
some affect iu furthering the object must doer
him in life. He thought ft possible an the
might be taught it le bon io seeiog that rug, ~).•
men knew how to estlibite, even at the rltlrei..r of
their owls pretensions, the respect and hot,,,,iq
to that distinguisfied name, windh should evrr
mood the reverential gratitude rod pion. vt-
feetion of every Iriiihnisa.—(Hear. hear,
When the mortal remains of Gratiou should imee
been conveyed to their. destined ;vermin le is the
repository of the illustrious dead. he thought that
the verses written of one who differed from him
every respect but that of a refined lave sod blew's-
less simplicity of life, might, with equal justice, be
applied to him—,
"Neer to the chambers where the mishty ere,
Since their romidatioa %Mae a pipe: gorse;
Nor e'er was to the bowers of bMp coareyal.
A fairer spit it or more welcome shadL"
(Lord and lorpeontinued cheerings from all ports
of the House.)--The Hon. and Learned
man then moved, That the Speaker do issue
warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to troslce out s
sir* writ for the city of Dublin, for the election of
a Citizen to serve in the present Pailientrot in the
room of the Right Honourable Henry Gramm. de-
ceased.

Lord CASTLERS4OII said he rose to second the
motion, and he perfeetly cdneurred in the leslinge
expressed by the Hon. tend Learned Gentlemen,
that no individual esidowed with good taste or a
sense of justice could diree.it from the tribute pint
to that illustnous iudividual How no more. It wa.
quite true that he bad rendered more sulks snit
splendid services oo his country than any other
sons to wheat she hod given birth. He remem-
bered wheo he first coat.: into public life, the ta-
letits then displayed by that great man—they were
then in the full spribildeir of their power. and indis-
putably no wall bid ever exercised a rester
eO4/110:111Ud over a popular assembly. thew he laid
over the Parliament of Ireleid.—(Hear. hear.)—
By the victory which his eloquetice obtained, he
gained as much for this country as his owl., he dis-
sipated the mists of diditneei and igunranee which
overhung it, and that Ta,d the foundation for that
union which was so beneficial and happy on both
sides, and which he trusted would be everlasting.
It was he who vanquished the niereantile prejudice,
that the poverty of Irefulid wai ilie wealth of Eng-
land—(Hear, Atari; itior)-:-arid thus led the
way to the estiblisloitent of that: pnieciple of
commercial intercourse, the fruits of which
we were now enjoying; and which Parlimmeiit
was engaged froni time to time in ameliorating.
He should not attempt to deseribe the virtues of has
private life; they were of Claimable as his public
services were conspicuoui end distinguts!ied.—
Weer, isear.)-ii-From the time that illy.
had come to exhibit his taleuts in this cousitry,
unt-
withstanding the dilfiettlty or the diiiiertakiug (14
it was nut easy to traiiiptatit a tree of that growth
and age—Hear, hear)—this country had felt the
benefit of the shade of that tree, whose last fruits hail
been before shed on Ireland. His raise gesoilis was
always justly appreciated and adinived— (Hear).
said he certainly never spoke there without com-
manding the utmost respect and esteem from both
sides ad the House. The Honourable and Learned
Gentleman had raid with a great drgro- of taste,
that he should abstain from the introduction of
political questions which might give rise to any
difference of opinion. However he (Lord Cap;
tlereagh) felt on the question to %Inch the last
years of Mr. Grattan's life hod bees' devoted, or
however he coincided with him on that pond,
would be foreign from the present purpose to
enlarge upon; but lie should say that, whether
right or wrong, he at least gave the last it-sti-
muli), permitted to hie feeble frame mid great
mind, of his sincerity id that cause which will overeat
his heart—he thought it his duty to make the last
effort of expiring osmium on behalf of it.--(lieue.)
lie wished he could expres is' trims of snore
adequacy the veueration with which he was hip
pressed for the general life, character. and the pos
iitical conduct and abilities at Mr. Glottises.,
(Loud cheers) —which was most sincere and
outwitlistsoding dial they had differed ou immy
sod very imports/it occasions; and bat Armin h..
sorry to have it supposed that the lion. and L,-Nrne,;
Geutlenian did taut eltorriruer ea warm a concurs
rence in every thing who. hail fallesi from hint ill
Lis eloquent tribute to drintelrd worth. genius, am
eloquence, on this as on the other side of ;les
Hugs*.—f('hteri.sg.)
Mr. C. GMANT said, that the Hon. and Learned
Geolleinau lead prop/ley observed that the el
tonsocitig of inosegyrics should never lee suer
feted to become a getters! practice ; but he
thought it due to the feelings of the Wier
tab Commons—he thought it due to those of
the people of Irelaud, to snake this Celle an
txceptioe from the general rule. Ile should out
attempt to enter on Mr. ©rattan's putitit chgracter,
or on the ceimiideration of those sutiiluy Ichiewe-
utents lie had effected fur his counity ; the Hen:,
and Leoeued Gentleman had expatiated sea this
port of the subject with a degree of eloquence that
made it hopeless to endear)°, to follow him. Blot
it wits of the Lib-its of that illustrious twisti's pivot*
life, with which perhaps he had a better onistitapity

of becoming acquaioted, that he wished to say a
few word*. No Man who did not see him in tint
,bosom of tits family and his friends, could con.
-ceive how sit individual that hid devoted so linge
a portion of , his etistence to public cares', and
that laboured so much and had gained such in-
calculable benefits for his country, could unbend
his great mind, and resign himself **completely
✓s
he slid to the simple pleasures of domestic life,
tranquil retirmeetit, mid literary leisure—and above
all, to the snlepspeat of the beauties of nature,
sod the delightfakeed romantic scenery by which
his residence me surrounded, to which he gave
himself op with all the ardour mid freshness of
youth.—(Hear.)—Oise important lesson he thought
was to be let;rneil from Mr. Grattan's Career—how
derply the ;deficits of private worth entered into
the composition of meritorious public character—
Iffeas. hear)—and it might be said that public
'were
struck their roots so deeply, because they
were grounded on the basis of the domestic affec.
i ions. ((, it et rs.)
Mr. Wit.nEtwoßce said, that Mr. Grattan was
• man in whom all selfish views, all private lute.
rests were extinguished in love for his country—the
whole of the ficultiea, and energies of whose mind
were directed iiinirlabTy to one object, the advance-
ment of the welfare of his compatriots; and he
rejoiced to ..verve the admiration and reverence
which so exahed a character inspired, triumphant
over all partyfeelings and considerations, and that
all riles of the House were anxious to render jus-
tice to the clime of so great and good a character.
It was pecu!:.ir to Mr. Grattan to have triumphed
over every thhig, even what might be thought his
own favourite feelings. That he was no friend to
the Union o,:t. well known; lint he well recollected
that afterwar•fs, when there was reason to fear that
the love of I:berty which he had infused into his
countrymen might tempt them to seek for freedom
through lire:.ttuusuess, instead of embracing the
sober benefits und excellencies of the British Con-
etituti al, Mr. Grattan hesitated not to risk the
loos of his popularity to open their eyes and unde-
ceive them.---(.4ppluitse.)
Mr. V. PI rzriEttsi.n hoped it would be pet-
'aided to an Iridium' to give some expression to
those feelings which he entertained in common with
all Gentlemen in the House, but which he trusted
a countryman of Mr. Grattint's would be allowed
is feel PIMA' warmly than others. The lion. and
Learned Gentleman who had made the motion had
dwelt upon the character of the illustrious man with
great eloquence and feeling. It certainly was true,
that if yuu would read the history of Grattan, you
must read the history of frelsod—(Hear, hear)—
tor all the events attendant on establishing the in-
depondeisee of Ireland. were nut only connected
with his name but effected by his talents. The
chief glory of his triumph was, to make use of
langeoge applied to Lord Charlemont—alone in
ilia history of empim, a revolution was achieved
without shedding one drop of
Anniois as he was to avoid any thing which might
grit rise to a difference of opinion, it was imps.
'sable to contemplate Mr. Grattan's death without
,tnrlverua~; in some manner to that question which
at Ins Last moments occupied his whole heart and
soul. There was in the very consecration which the
Ideation 11.14 received by Ito end, enough to justify
14 in a4t4tting to it. As from his life it had re-
•feived the greatest support, so he confidently hoped
obis% from huts death it would derive its final success
and consummation.—(Hear.)
M. Yin° Er ALD was anxious to give utter.
to thcse feeling's which roast animate every
Irish heart, tin the loss of that individual who was on-
doubirilly the most useful and dlstioguished-patriot
that :salami ever had. All descriptions of men its
Irrhisid.froto the highest to the lowest, concurred in
sorrow fur his death, respect for his usemory,and heart-
telt .gratitude for the services which be had rendered
hie country. It was not his intention to miter on a
formal inme•gyric, but he shotild take the liberty to
*rad a document which contrived au account of the
hnit (as we understood) words held by Mr. Grottoes
on the Catholic Question. It was immediately
after committed to writing by a friend, and intrust.
rd to Kim (Mr. Fitzgerald) to be employed to
the way in which he then used it.—(Hear, hear,)—
The paper which he then read was to the follumug
..:Ifect :—" I wished to have gone to the House of
Ceaseless to bring forward your question, but I
clothe* ;:the hand of death is upon me. I can meet
death; but I fear for my country if this question is
NM/ Curried.—.(Hear.)—The Catholics are loyal
mess, and should not be coudemued to political tar
feriosity because they worship God in their own
way. I wish the question were settled, because I
*Wok it essential to the permatiency of the con-
flexion between the two countries." The document
. thep conveyed monition againat uniting with the ra.
dirisl reformers of Esigland, and concluded-thus:—
Z.' One thing more.; carefully avoid making your-
ochres partite to any disseutions which may AMR be-
tween the brooches of the Royal Family"'—(Hear.)
—He (Mr. F.) was sure the effect of this precept
sdould not be lost on those for whom it was intended.
The gentles was then put and carried.
PROTECTING DUTIES, Sue.
Sir:H. PARNELL moved that -a Select Committee
he apisotisted to consider the provisions of the Act
a Union between England and Ireland in eels.
twit to trade, and to report their opinions on the
duties laid on the produce of either, country when
!moulted into that of the other.
A Member, with whose name we are oosequoiot-
44secoodeol the motion.

;kr. V. FITZGERALD hoped his Right Bon.
Erteud (she Cinnicellor of the Exchequer), would
%fellow Use Committee. lie Itheve that nothing
3.0140 he more productive of discolitent mad Warm
;iniceliazid than such a measure. The expiration of
/Vic Act of Calicos) did not point owt the period
%hen those duties should cease, but the time when
any legislative interference could properly take
Oder.

Lord A 1.T11012 supported the motioo.
Mr. WILMOT .poke to favou► of the Committee.
Ti.e CH a NtiLLOS, of the Excuseuaa thought
be should ht guilty of injustice both to this cams.
try and Irelmid, if be sa►ctioned the appointment
of the Committee proposed by the Hon. Dame,
The tusoutactarers bad, upon the faith of the
existiug duties being continued, entered into large
*peculation., and any measure like that proposed
Would go to create discontent and alum itt the
public toned.
.Mr. Calms, was for going into ,the

,sot foe t 4 porpram of repealing the existing dn.
ties, but with a view to ascertain the period fur
which it would be necessary to continue theme.
Sir N. Cotmutts? hoped that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would not accede to the motion
of the Hou. Baronet. He knew that it would be
productive of considerable alarm and discontent in
that part .of the country with whiCh he was con.
nected (Cork). At a period like the present, when
the public distresses of that country were so great
from recent failures (mud that distress exceeded all
belief). it was of the utmost importance to avoid
all subject of discontent or alarm.
Lord CArri.slesAoH coincided with the Hon.
Baronet who had just sat down. He was aware
that mnch distress prevailed in the South of Ire-
land from the recent failure of public credit. and
it was necessary to give as much tranquillity as pus.
sible to the public wind. On these grounds he
opposed the motion. . .
Mr. Hume e. it Mr. W. PAusir, supported the
motion.
The CHANcEct.ott of thetiiiettosa. explained.
Mr. SHAW said, that though he agreed with the
Honourable Member for Waterford (Sir J. New.
run), that a graditated scale of reduction would be
best, yet he should not oppose the present motion,
as, if he did so, the question would be thrown back
to next year.
After a few words from General HAIM—
Sir H. PAIN ELI, rose to reply. He said, thin
fruin what had beep urged *Oast his mottos,. he
felt it the more elect:MeV to take the sense of the
House upon it.
The House then diviandit.
For the Commir:ee
Against it
•••• .66
Maim% against ...... 36

It was ordered, on the motion of Mr. Slaw, that
there be laid before the House an Account of the
Amount of the Dublin Grand Jury Cess for the
last six years, ending the Ist January, 1820, the
Amount charged to each Parish, the Insolvency and
He-awes, and the Amount lost by Collectors; also
the Total Amount charged within the same period
for Watching, Paving, and Lighting the said City.
MUTINY BILL.
Lord Pacmgarrom moved the Order of the Day
for the thiro reading of the Mutiny Bill.
The Order being read, •• That this Bill be now
read the third time"—

Lord NUORNT begged to inquire whether the first
Resolution included the service for India ?

Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Resolution bad
better be read.—lt was read by the Clerk, it did
not include that service.

Lord NUGENT then rose. He said it was far
from his wish to enter at length into the details of
this question. He feared the motives *by which he
was actuated, in addressing the House, would make
but little impression on the Gentlemen opposite ;
the few observations which he had to make should
therefore be applied to the principle, not to the de-
tails of the subject ouster discussion. He felt,
however, that he should abuse the time of the
House if he confined himself to that cold and unin-
teresting matter (he said it with deference to the
Noble Lord), in which the estimates of so great
a military force, in time of peace, were atimially
brought forward. The maintenance of a large
standing army in time of peace was always looked
upon with an eye of joiloasy ; it was a jealousy
formerly strongly felt, bat he feared that it
had now become en old4ashioned feeling. He
should be sorry if such was the case, bat he could
not help thinking that it ass the filet. He did
not, for himself, see the necessity of maintain-
ing such a force; he thought, indeed, that •
better mode of lefence Might, in times like
the present, he resorted to. He considered that
face, with reference to its avowed application, as
worse than useless; be considered that it was sup.
ported in contredietion to the soundest principles
of the Constitution. It would, he said, Worm our
ancestors, if they could contemplate the present
situation of the country—if they could look at the
state of our military( establishinents. After five
years of profound peace we hive au army of ninety.
two thousand men, exclusive of twelve thousand
yeomanry and oilier force ! Whit did this force
meant Whet was it but *
.gigantie stride towards
a military Government (Hear, bear.)—He looked
in vain, from what fell from the Noble Lord
in the recent debates in that House. for any
thing that, in the state of thus country, in the
temper and feelings of the people, could justify
this monstrous 'evolution in the constitutional go.
moment of England. The Noble Lord seemed to
rest the vindication of Ministers on the notoriety
of the neceseity for calling out that force. He
wee not disposed to admit as a postulate of the No-
ble 4.ord's, that *sty thing which had recently sic-
.carted in the country did justify so greet a change
in the-Councils end Government. He recollected
that about four year* ago, a set of estimates to
a reasiderable amount was laid -before the House.
He must remind the House that on o former occa-
sion, when Ministers hutting lost the Property TUX,
.they withdrew the Army Estimates, and that cir-
cumstance gave him hopes that 011 consideration
they would conceive thia.sonsething less than 92.000
men would now be suftirient. The Finance Com.
minim, in the year 817-..• year, be it remembered, '
of such imagined danger, Mot his Majesty's Nis!
nisters had thought fit to suspend the lisket
Corpus Act—in that year the Finance Coin-
mime bad recommended all approximation of the
array to the standard of the year 1792. He
admitted the public distress, and consequent di...
affectiou which existed, but he .contended they
were aggravated by the course now pursued. There
was a Committee in another place on the Foreign
Trade, and they had a Committee of their own on
the Agricultural Distresses, but they could only come
to the cinichisioe, that a large stanirflog army was
not .the wey which the distresses of the 11121111araCe
turer could be relieved, the enterprise of the met-
cheat reanimated. or by which the farmer could
be restored talus farm es it was beforeit raps ruined
by taxation, end, abuse all, At wise riot the way to
reclaim the public confidence in that House, and
convince the nipple that it stood where the coasts.%
(mien had pieced it, as.• harrier between the public
and a system of profinissil end estravirtice lipentl.'
leled. The Noble Lord dieetsimed goy inteiitioo to
give expreaaion etteidelitiii;l .14eubeuirs bast bit
mast deprecate .the.fteireptiutterieterce of the *k-
ing ee ell accatsieutt; the other.dity they were .colksi

Nem=

in on the occasion of the election of a Member of that
House. He MVO still contend that the addition
last
.year, in time of profound peace, of eleven
thousand men to the military force, was • total
violation of the Constitution and the Bill of
Rights, as being raised without the consent of
Parliament, and when the Parliament did meet
it had not even been %bought necessary to apply for
• Bill of Indemnity. He considered the additional
burden on the country. as by far the least part of
the evil, yet if the amendment which he should
propose was carried, the avianl saving would be
above half a million, The Noble Lord concluded
by conjuring the House, if they would long pre.
their own existence and the Constitution of
the country, that they would vigilantly di (charge
their ditty in Presenting a check to the system of
governing by means of •.standing army. He then
moved, that in place of 9t,224 men. 77,444 should
be substituted.
The SPEARER observed, that after the Bill watt
read the third time would be the proper period to
propose the amendment. The Bill was then read
the third time, and on the Speaker putting the
question for the amendment,
Mr. BRIGHT (we believe) rose and said, that he
could see no reason to increase the establishment
beyond that of the year 170. It was true that
Many changes had occurred since then, and many
bad scenes been witnessed ;among others, that of
a military body charging an assemblage of persons
who, whether legally met together or not, he would
not say. yet it was certsiii that they considered
themselves a legal assembly. He did not be.
!stye in the existence of any disaffection to
the constitution of King, Lords, ea Commons,
though doubtless the -pet.ple thought there were
some things which might be amended, and
in that clays they included the extraordinary
iucrease of the military force. To the amount of
that increase he would support the proposition of
the Nohle Lord, and if Ministers would not consent
to that modification, he would vote for the entire
proposition.

. .
Lord PALMERSTOW rate and said, that the sr-
gumetits of the Noble Lord might be divided into
two parts—his objections applying. in the first
place, to the extent of the military force generally ;
and, secondly, to the particular increase of 11;000
men. The Noble Lord had mid, that so reason
had ever been given to chew the insufficiency of the
establishment of 179 t, and quoted the authority
of the Finance Committee on that point. But
really the question had been so frequently dis..
cussed, and the reasons for thinking the force of
the sear 1752 insufficient for the present time, so
often stated by himself, that he felt ashamed of
troubling the House with the repetition. The in.
crease in the number. extent, and importance of
our colonies, was the broad line of distinction he-
tweet, the year 179 i and the present' time. He
would not enter into the details, but merely name
the Joule') Islands, the Cape of Good Hope, the
Mauritius. and our possessions in North America,
as part of oar extended colonial possession., which
required protection. As to the increase of 11,000
men last year, if the Noble Lord looked back
throughout the whole of our history, he would
And that all segmentations of oar force took place
in time of peace (cerosisily looking forward to a
state of war).—(Load cries of " Hear, hear,"frons
the Opposition Benches/.—He understood the
meaning of those cheers; but Gentlemen certainly
would not contend for there being any distinctioa
between an external war and an intermit commo-
tion. When the Noble Lord stated that raising
troops without consent of Parliament was onion.
ful, he fully concurred with him ; but be must
contend the consent of Parliament bad been oh.
tained, so far as under the circumstances it was
possible to obtain it. The Speroh from She
Throne mentioned the fact. and Parliament its their
Addresser, in answer. had adverted to it, besides
which • specific sum of money had been rioted
for that service. If the Noble Lord considered it
so great a violation of the Constitution, they had
much to answer for, for not having before brought
it under the consideration of Parliament. But the
Noble Lord might say if the measure was necessary
when it took place. it must also 'be shewn to be ne.
cessary now. He would not for that purpose
advert to the plot so recently discovered an
London; but did not the Noble Lord know that
trials of • great number of individuals were now
about to take place io both Yorkshire end Scot.
land for the crime of high treason ? Did be not
know that in March last large bodies of Brined men
proceeded to acts of hostility against the King's
troops ,? Had he never heard of • proclamation
issued at Glasgow ? When some of these circus-
'truces had occurred so lately as March and April
last, it was too much to contend that Government
ought now to lay down those means which.
from those very circumstances, they were cols.
pelted to take up. The Noble Lord had, foi
the thousand and one time, brought forward
the grave and serious charge spine his Ma.
.jesty'a Government of intending so
military government, u topic morit,rilikhy of au-
diences at Palace-yard, or the huinioga of Covent.
garden. The Noble Lord bad talked of Ilse gi.
vutic strides made towards despotism, bot at was
to the miscalled Reformers that he ought to have
addressed himself. end nut to those who endeavour.
ed to defeat their mischievous iitojects. As his
Majesty's Government did nut make the increase
Au the force till compelled by iiecessity, wither had
they sheath any disposition to retain it • tuvoneitt
longer than the necessity should rant. the Noble
Lord had charged the Governthent with • depar.
*ere from the principles of the Revolt:tams, but if
those Stateroom who brought sibout that voratsvellt
could took down upon the present times, he was
gene sure the Noble Lord would not have the
*auction of th-o.• authority.
Colonel asoms mid, that not ooly.was the me*
litary force too large, but there were also • want of
economy in. Amery depnrtnient connehtellAieh
He thought thi.tiros, should be ,copiidaygell*,
tallying point. or Auxiliary for the defames Os
cooostry against interval .cosonosiso, boa steerall
the principal or only defence. Me staid that the
remiss munabei of Web asiseistfled to a tionlltintit
ilbsti,ilaixd,'An'Which the If tilde Lira hod
‘ll4o6o..ffiigli.ol4 jaPa that tiria....the.catre i.e the
iWal,cso Wad. to., where i 9 -peistruesa were token:
Ma was. istiallwil• she ulniet as At sari its 1819:
before she eatosaotatioti, ; deg
)f the iuhabitauttiqt),Ainitibire *Wild tottie

as yeentedry, after the elemple of Scotland, a still
greater reductisin night be looked for. If the dose
alfectiou OMB DO great es had beets stated, it was not
an army that would be aisle to 'top it, and of dila
the recent reinitiate of Spats might convince memo.
He concluded 6y moving, as an einesidonent on the
ainerirtment of Lord Nugent, that 80,479 should
be the nosiber of men for the year.
The SPRAKIIR thou put the question. that 4.1 the
words proposed to be left out du stated as pert of
the Oa".
Sir H. liYiteti said, that having had the honour
to be appointed on the Staff iii Scodissid at the time
the augme•tatiouseinalsdaiiied of took place, he rose
for the porie.se of silting some facts which came
within Isis 4.1'111 knowledge. The powsliniou of
Glasgow, consisting of nearly 200.000 persons,
were in a *tote of discontent not to be conceived.
The Field Officer Of the 7'h regiment had informed
that to that neighbourhood he had seen a
body of 2.5,000 men, not armed certaiiily, but
they dispersed in a manner so regular, that It
would have been highly creditable to any body
of disciplined trnopa whatever. A good deal had
been said about the yeomanry ; they certainly were
a delierviog body of men, hut lie would by all
means recommend their not being opposed in the
first instance to any popular uniumotiosi ; and he
was ellti'lled that the affray which took place at
Greenock would not have occurred had the ea-
cort been of the. regular troops. He deprecated
soy reduction of the
.forces now. as • misplaced
and false economy. which would infallibly lead to
future evil consequences. He denied that he how
rose as w defender of the rimy, and he hoped lie
had sufficient liberality to feel, that when circuni.
stances wield admit of it, the army must make sis-
erifices. its well as every other class of the com-
munity.
' Mr. Houle/vie said. that the Noble Lord op.
' pselte, who talked about topics fit for the suds.
mime of Palete-yard, and the hustings at Covent.
garden, did not appear to know, that by the ester.
lions of himself end leis colleagues there could be
no meetings in Palace-yard, and wily at stated
periods in Covent-garden. He considered that the
embodying of the additional force was an infring-
ment of the Bill of Rights ; and so to the necessity
taw, which did not exist in 1794, he denied that
there was any ; for in 1793, after the King of
France had been put to death, an increase of
4,000 men only took place. He should vote for the
proposition of the Noble Lord, because it wrist fur.
titer than that of the gallant Colonel (Davies); and
if the Noble Lnrd had voted the reduction of the
whole army, he should have voted with him.—
(Hear, hear, hear.).--I'e perfectly understood She
meaning of those cheers. The Noble Lord was
backed by his parliamentary majorities and •
standing army; whilst he (Mr. Hobliouse) had
nothing to support him but the consciousiress of
doing his duty. The real question was, if the
country was to be governed by a standing army or
not ; and on .this head lie would quote what had
been said by. Fletcher of Saltoun, .1 that there were
doubts if • standing army could vaiiqnish our
foreign enemies, but no doubt whatever that they
could enslave us," The Hots. Member here reca-
pitulated the progress of the standing army in this
oniony from its first forinstiosi, in the appowtmelit
of fifty yeomen of the guard by Henry VII. down
to the present time. He observed, that dames 11. at-
tempted to maintain 30,000 men; we had slow 35,000
men for Englatid only ; they were not. it was true,
encamped at Hounslow. but if that Nouse of Coal-
mons did its duty. he expected to see them there.
Standing ramie' and standing Parliaments came in
end continue to flourish together, but he hoped the
ooe would soon be shortened, and the other diminish-
ed in an ego's! propertiou. The topics he had urged
on their attention were not new ; they were the sen-
timents of the political ancestors of. very man who
sat in that Houle. Against an establishment at the
sitoposit of eighteen thousand men had been ar-
rayed the wit of Lord Chesterfield, the poli-
tical knowledge of Sir William Wyndham, and
the sound sense of Sir Robert Walpole. He
thought it rather singular that the 2.5.000 mess who
had been seen by the officer, as stated by the gal-
lant General opposite. considering the space of
ground which they must occupy, had bees. seers by
no one else, and had newer been beard of till that
moment. In proof that there was no necessity for
so large • force to put down internal commotion'',
he alluded to the ease with which in London Alder:
maim Wood had put down en apparently formidable
tueetiug; at Derby one officer and IM men sufficed
to crush au insurrection ; and at Mericlieder
100.000 people had been dispersed by a small num-
ber of drunken yeomanry. As to seditious pubis.
cations, he professed to regard them as of ho eKet
whatever. if no cause for complaint really existed ;
but if cause for universal complaint did exist, It
not be 94,000 men which could prevent the
catastrophe winch Ministers dreaded.
Colonel Dents sad Sir H. VINIAN mutually
explained.
Mr. VIIICY FITZGERALD WWI persuaded that
uothime but a erase of duty could hove occasioned
the delsiery of the extraordinary expressions arid
Sentiments which the House Is id just heard. ' He
would not attempt to follow the Hun. Member, far
its one miswrite he thought ire had (initialled a reply
to all his other argument., for he had said, that he
was not only prepared to vote for the pro.
positiou of the Noble Lord. but also to diso
band the army entirely. Fle thought that as
,it regarded Ireland, so far from being able to
withdrew any pert of the force from thersce, if
some trenquillixing mealtimes were not wispiest, the
troops there would be insufficient bir the snalisiains.
Ante of the public peece. He dal not Hiroo to
gonteisil.that.the present amount of force should
contemplated as permanent, hut what lie would
strongly ore* spinet was, the endatigerisir the
country by WI sudden reduction of that fusee tit
prirseut,
Mr. W. SMITH did not like the idea of.defessil•
ids the iuteriiite of the army, es coutrasted wstb
them elf the ptainde. As to the inerninus forte
tbiabiltáb“..o4lloB4 to he egesehirefor belied, lie Merest
there could rot setire,oo the 'Yakut of ea-
veivelidt tubed Ala for militia' past prevailed in behind.
Vv. emir tele se sledoesseral sisiisdems ai die people ; bet
mi,ifirtsfstlMl MRS" were Arai! selmlljour Itreaki!qr, usG, ar
ihNIMMII to (se piskJainsee. If be ko:st ANT Gong of lie
eetwarisielsiiii et • mood
.lemeamewt. ha wddlst hoot
p*4l/193:4,triBSItt comeoteret. al Abe peopts.
;010 way he Irelaod had twee
Otteerithe yof tak CM. _
!IWO", ilea intrawl is Ise one is which smug peke, -

tailed in Ilto government which redid. He ilia not. however,
dread the cirri's.. of • atawsiirsig sway *a the liberties ref t. p
people. TN, had become so need to millions it. dussier,
end thistosands of troops. that a■ army which would has s-
laws sufficient to sultjapte the comotry fwmrrly.
now an Waket it holly deprived of its pplitural teritir.
armlet were in troth I soiree wf weakness to the G0v.....
meat. Another source of danger was the dioramas of that
class just above the labouring one, in OWnissletasr ..f
the extreme pressure of taxation. A worse toe sera rash. r
of the foregoing was She isatioaal rue Ishii it
yrs:wired more energy to woggle with it taws ally on her
which threatened the ,late. A redaction of lazes, and g• •
metal retrenchment in the expenses of Goverunient, would
do much to restore the coufidenre of the people, and realm•
the Government to rope with their difficulties. He thuseglit
that patronage was the chief emu* why the army was kept
•p sin so Isrie a scale. . _

Mr. V. Frtgorattliti explained.
Sir Husarw Views explained.
Mr. It. MARTIN atoleriout to tell the Gentle men oppc.
Site why there was ■ neeeseity fur keeping op au laic.
force. The speeches of those Greallenten unnamed t►e ui Md.
of the people, and capers! the Raitcals to arm thewpwlet
against that rove►wwent, which they were taught to cou•t.
der as one heedless of Harty sulferiogs aril anxious to
burdens on Sloe contusion,. It was they (the Oppositom
who called up " the misruled spirits of the land." 1..1
them tell the people that the Government were asixiou, to
do all in their pow►r tp relieve the pilfering* sir ill, 11.1.
Lion. The Hon. Member for Westasioster h■d ma,'►
very remunsble coortitutionsl speech. Hp believed ,bar s.••
(Mr. Marti') bad mainly contributed to ioirodnee that MM.
Member to the Hur.e; at any rate the eircumarsitres
look place jest before the elects.. had contributed in tai
small degree to t►at efferi,an4 Sh► metion which lie (Mr. NI
had made from the gallery, bad some there in briugoor
shoat that result. He slid out feel is necessary to aputuataii
tc, the Huger fur doing as he lad done. That lion tleni.
her had skews how far a man might be improved by keep-
ing good company. Here the Hon. Member made sire, t
refermsee to some expressiose which be seemed to impute to
the Member for Westminster.—(Load cries of "tinier ."'
frost every part of the Mom)
The Swamis' said, ►e weed mot appeal to the flonontahle
Member's good sense mo than °ace to convince him, that
se his remarks were am relative to the question, and were
besides improper, it would be iiieusibest en hint to desist
from them.

Mr. R. Msnett squirmed, hut intimated, that hs it was
doubtful whether there could Fe any delicacy its silting is
the same House with the sulhor of the stressless to
which he but slieded.—/Crtee ef Ores!')
The Sestina spin sdusoliistsed the HMI. Member sgsinat
using expressions which were likely to be interpreted min-
Mr. R. MARTIN begged tee thousand pardons, and sat
don.

Lord N 00,11? ►ose to reply, but
The Sptat.R Was •f opiaion, that he could only claims
the privilege ut explaiging.
The Hues. thee
divitlyd—
For the siiiesidatest .. 47
Agaiust it
Majority

Ott ou► te.ai•mis}lne to the Gallery, the CIikIICIrLLOO of
the Excite-taunt atm on his legs. movieg foe the Hussy to
resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Sir Hung said, he would net oppose the goiter into the
Committee; but be trusted the Hight Hun. Gentleman
would not move the bliscellarwous Liimates in it at that
hour (clove* o'clock )
The CsawCsuon of the EICIIIIQUve mid, it was only
his tilleultuu kr wove the Resolutions r.-specting the EN-
(legator Bills, and to postpone tint part which the lieu.
?itemiser objected to being brought us to Friday.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The Cmtnert.t.pa of the Exenveuen moved that the
gem of one million should he applied for the vivo...tit of
Excises/nee Bills liaised in the years 1818 sad 1819 and
also for the aunt of 420,6901. for the yse of the Sutton( Fund,
sad the stun of 13,500,090/. to pay off Exchequer Bilk of the
year 1819, tosprovided few.—Agreed to.
The Chairman reported, and asked leave to sit again uo
Friday. _ _ _

WAYS AND ME4NS.
The gnameet.Lon of the EICHIQUIR Move," that the
fjttlog of the Cossoitiee illiquid be postponed to Friday.

THE BUDGET.

The Colexcamoit et the Excernatien said it had been hi.
i•tentiou to have brought es the budget a Friday, but
•• Hue. sad Learned Member had • 'notion 'Landing fur
that Jay' relative to the Criminal Laws, and he having ppm_
posed it on a turner ornasioa to oblige loins, be could nut
think of again trespenieig on him; hi therefore gave nuttec
that be ponponsed his motion, commonly called the Budg,t,
from Friday to Moods, next.
Lord Bpontno ga-w Notice, that he would on Monday
next ask leave to *jag i■ a Dill for the peepers of ens.
WIN( the Last India Company It, raise • Corps of Volatile/
A :Wernher, whim: .a we could nut arc.rtatu, asked
leave of absence for the Lord Advocate of Smoked (UT itoe
moods, on account of his being obliged to attend his earns!
duty.
The other Orders of the day were thee disposed of.
Adjoursteil at Half-peat Eines to'Clock till Friday next.

MINORITY
ON LORD NUGENT'S NOTSOI, ON TNN THIRD READING 01
TNN MUTINY MILL, roe • RIDUCTION IN Tilt MILITARY

Althorp, Vise. Heatheste, G. Ricardo. David
A ebrey, Sir J. Habitues', J. C. Pleatbold, C.
Beam, Julia Htrbard, Hoe. E. Smith, IV's,.
Barrett, S. M. Harvey, D. W. Smith. Hon. R.
Bright, H. Huaywood, W. P. Sykes, b.
Bernal, Ralph HaWintaud, W. Wilhite, Walk?
Carew, R. S. Latebtua, J. G. Wood, A Ideratae
Creevey, Thalami Leshiactua, Dr. SVlerbread, $.
Calerah, J. H. Lloyd, Sir E. Welders, C. C.
Duncautiou„ Vite. Mania, Joh. iVinaisgtutt. Sir L
ifihringsuu, Vise. Milton, Vise. Williams. V..
Griffith, J. W. Maack, J B. Webb', E.
Giese, Sir W. B. Palmer. C. F. --
Gurney, R. H. Parnell. W. TICI.Ltig.
Hug her, Cul. Power, R. Davies, T. H.
Hurst. R. Wyse, Franck" Navel, Lurd
Huger, J. RubiasoN Sir G.