The Sun.
London, England, 1855-08-08 00:00:00

E SUN, LONDON; WEDNESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 8 1856.,

portnnity which may present itself with the view of im-
proving the condition of the Italian people. It may be in
the recollection of many hon. gentlemen that fm long 5..40
se the year 183 M the Five Powers, through their reptes,u-
tativee at 441 suggest to the Roman Government;
certain administrative canges which they thought would
have materially improved the condition of the population
of the Roman States. These recommendations were
made, not only by the representatives of England and
France, but by those of Russia, Austria, and Prussia, but,
unfortunately, at that time they were not adopted. More
recently, however, they were partially carried out,. and
were so far acted-upon that a Council of Finance was, I be-
lieve, established. I am afraid that that Councilof Finance
hasremained a powerless body,for although theyhavemade
reports and representations, I am not aware that those re-
ports and representations have led to any advantageous
results. It was also recommended, in connection with the
appointment of the Council of Finance, that certain pro-
vincial add popular assemblies should be constituted,
and that the elements of representative government should
be so far established that the people might be enabled to
make their wishes and feelings known to the Government.
The great difficulty which has prevented the adoption of
these arrangements has been what is called the secularisa-
tion of the administrative departments, and that difficulty
has not been overcome. My noble friend seems to think
thatlif the troops were withdrawn the Italian people would
themselves establish a form of government whiJh would be
mere congenial with their feelings and more conducive to
their interests than that which now exists. If such changes
could be made with the deliberation and calmness which
are calculated to lead to a satisfactory result, I would say,
" Let the troops be withdrawn to-morrow, and let the re-
quisite alterations or improvements be made ;" but, un-
fortunately, the road from bad government to good go.
vernment is not always smooth and easy. There are diffi-
culties in the way, there are dangers which interpose ;
there are sometimes evils to be encountered which almost
counterbalance the good that is seen in the distance ; and
I am afraid that, unless arrangements were previously
made, and unless the way was carefully prepared before.
hand, the sudden introduction of such changes as my noble
friend suggests might lead to inconveniences and disturb-
ances which no man, I am persuaded, would be more
anxious than himself to avoid. I think, however, I can so
far answer for the Government of France—and certainly I
can answer fully for the Government of England—as to
say that their attention has not been withdrawn from this
interesting subject, and that we shall be most anxious to
avail ourselves of any opportunity which may present it-
self in order to promote those benevolent objects to which
my noble friend has directed the attention of the house. I
am not aware that there is any other topic to which it is
necessary for me to refer. I have stated the deep sense of
responsibility entertained by her Majesty's Government,
our determination to do our best that such responsibility
may fall lightly on us, and our consciousness that we shall
have to render a strict account to Parliament when it
again assembles; and I will only add that I liope and
trust that account will be satisfactory to Parliament and
, to the country. (Cheers.)

COMPARISON OF ESTIMATE FOR 1854.55, WITH ACTUAL

RESULT OP 185'2 53.

lAnd revenue
Customs
Salt
•
Opium
Tobacco (abolished, 1853)
Post- )ffice

Stamp 3.,
Mint

Marine and pilotage
Judicial fees and fines
Revenue of Strait settlements

Mr. HENLEY deprtcated the course pursued by the
noble lord the member for the city of London ; it was
calculated to do much harm, and could not be produc-
tive of any beneficial results. Ho bad on a previous
occasion opened up the whole nationalities of Poland
and Hungary, and he supposed the present was a sequel
to that. (Hear. hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL believed he bad not said one
word with respect to Hungary, but had only referred to
Poland. . _

lacrosse

Revenue of Coorg ....
Revenue of Nagpore
Revenue of Pegu, &c
Sale of presents
Interest on arrears
Miscellaneous
2. Other Receipts :
Proceeds of estates admini-
stered • by late Reg,istrar-
General ......... . ..................
Proceeds of assets of late Go•
vernment of the Punjaub
Gain by exchanges

Mr. HENLEY then went on at some length to decry
the c"urse pursued by the noble lord the member for
the city of London, expressing his regret that the matter
had b.-en hroucht forward, and it was in fact ()Ay throw-
Ina on', the apple of discord for no real ostensible object.
Th 3 Appropriation Bill was then read a third. time
and passer).
PUBLIC HEALTH (No. 2) BILL.

This bill, on the motion of Sir B. HALL, pwsed thr6ugh
all it 3 stageg. and was read a third time anil passed.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

The house then went into committee on this bill, re-
suming at the 224'clause.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that as there was
so limited a period of time at the disposal of the house
that raoming for the full and proper adjustment of the
&arise, so as to suit the expreised views of the hon.
m.rnhers who had already spoken, he would consent for
the present, though he should do so reluctantly, to with-
draw the clause. (Hear, hear.)

The cl two wag accordingly omitted.
Clauses 23 to 34, inclusive, were agreed to without
opposition.
Some further ones having also been adopted without
much discussion, it being 10 minute= to 4 o'clock,
The house resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported

provresre
The house then adjourned until six o'clock.

The house resumed at six o'clock.

Net decrease of revenue ....
Net increase of expenditure

DeTreane.

76,473
145,727
443,540
59,215
12,171
63,778

Deterioration of 1854-55 as compared with
1852-53 3,094,770

18,955

14,453
14,570
9,142

Lord PALMERSTON stated, in answer to Mr: Vin-
cent Scully, that there was no intention to add a batta-
lion each to the three regiments of Guards.
Mr. STAFFORD moved for copies of reports from
the different hospitals connected with the army and navy
in the Black Sea. and_for copies elf any reports sent home
by-S.r J.hn M'Neill, the sanitary commissioner to the
army. He justified the disclosures which had been made
of the unnecessary sufferings of the army, without which,
he said, their sufferings would have been still worse. He
quoted extracts from evidence of several staff and regi-
m?ntal surgeons to show the frightful evils which existed
in the army about Christmas last. He quoted, also, the
euggestions they made fir an improvement of the sys.
tem, end asked the Government whether they had
adopted those suggestions.
Mr. PEEL, in reply to the statements of the hon-
nUrable gentleinatilmtereil into some details with re-
gard to the state of the hospitals in the Crimea, and first
he stated that an impartial commission leid been ap-
pointed to inquire into the condition of the hospitals on
the.lBth of June. At present there were few sick or
wounded either in the military or civil hospitals, and
the reason was that there was little sickness in the artily.
They had, however, made great provision for emergen-
cies, and he hoped they would always continue to be
beforehand with these 'contingencies. He hoped and be-
lieved Sebastopol would fall this summer ; but the Go-
vernment did not trust too much to that, but had made
provision for the army to winter again in the Crimea.
With respe-t to the military medical department, he
stated that it was intended to appoint a head over every
separate department, such as the purveyor's branch, the
,pothecary s, &c., and that over all a military medical
e iief should be placed. With regard to the motion, he
had no objection to give the ordinary medical reports
asked for.

'484
381,413
216,759
14,993
8,608

1,333

10,824

11,261
91,625

The, motion, amended in some -of its point?, was then
acceded to.

826,449 1,052,694
229,245
2,868,525

THE INDIAN BUDGET.

Me. IT. SLITS. moved that the papers and accounts
which had boon.presentA to the:house during the present
14PS irin in relaticin 6 India, be reforrod to a committee of
the whole house.

EXPENDITURE.
Expenditure. Increase. Decrease.
1. Payments in Realisation
of Revenue: £ £
Charges of collection, dm. 438,518
Allowances out of revenue by
treaty ...... . 24,833
Sinking fund—Tarjore
Allowance to village officers,
Enamdars, &c. 19,682
Charges ofcollection—Nogpore 206,098
Chargesofcollection—Pegn.&c 203,733
Payments to claimants oil Re-
gistra.r-General 7,031
2. Charges in India :
Civil and political
Judicial and police
Public works, buildings, &c 969,024
Military 918,986
Marine, Indian navy, &c.
Charges of Straits settlements 3,972
Mint
Interest on debt
3. Charges in England':
Dividends onEast India Stock
Interest on home debt
Steam communication with
India
Ditto for extended communi-
cation to her Majesty's Go-
vernment
Transport of troops and stores 51,699
Furlough and retired military
pay 62,418
Ditto marino ditto
Fier Majesty's troops in India 46,203
Retiring pensions, &c., of her
Majesty's troops
Charges—general (home esta-
blishment, &c.)
Absentee allowances to civil

servants
Annuities of Madras Civil Ser-
vice Fund
Retiring pay—St. Helena esta-
bliqnnent
Establishment in China
Expense of transportation of

4,217
412,282

5,736
26,003

The motion having been agreed to, the house woit into
eommittee.

51,917

35,000

Mr. V. SMITH proceeded to say that the lateness of the
period at which he rose to make the usual statement was not
owing to any no willingness on hisown part to makeit earlier,
or:to any want of industry in the department over which ho
presided, but to the pressure - of other business, and to the
unwillirgricss of the Opposition to postpone their criticisms
on the 'conduct of the Governtnpnt in -relation to other
matters.' A pledge was given by, his pre&cossor that the
accounts should ho presented ninth earlier, but owing to
the causes to which he referred he feared that it would
neither be in his (Mr. V. Smith's) power norm that of any
one who might succeed him to redeem that pledge. A
great deal of misapprehension had arisen from the applica-
tion of a misnomer to the statement ho was about to wakp.
It had been nailed a budget ; but, unlike the statement to
which that term was usually applied, it had reference only
'to the finances of past years, and that must continue to be
the case; unless the House of Commons were 'prepared. to
rescind the whole constitution 'of India. and to assume the
direction of affairs which Was now leftin the hands of the
Cou,-t of Directors and the‘Board of control. At the same
time he was far from denying that it was desirable that the
accounts should be produced at an earlier period of the
session. He observed that the hon. member for Manchester
had placed on the books a notic.- that he intended to move
that the accounts should in future be made up to the end of
October, instead of the end of April. Ho believed that could
no be done without a cona pieta derangem en tof the accounts
of Indian as they were at present settled. hear, from Mu.
Bright.) Such an alteration would tend to confuse the ac-
connts, Which were kept on a sptern.of double entry. His
predecessor had told the house that ha was endeavouring to
accelerate the transmission of the accounts from India. This
had; in fact," been done; and the accounts now' extended
only two years back. On this subject ho might refer to a
despatch which had been sent to India with the concur-
rence of, the Court of ,Directorsi calling for the transmis-
sionof th 6 accounts titan earlier period. The. effect of this
despatch was that the Government might be enabled next
April to present accounts extending up to April, 1835. On
the other hand, if the hon. gentleman's proposal were car-
ribd out,-theeffect Wotild be to renieve them months
backward instead of forward ; for ho did not believe it to
be possible that accounts made up to October, 1855, could
be sent home in. Ilium for' prentation in ~April, 1856.
'Now, following the example of 'his-predecessor, he should
proceed to present to . the house a statement of Indian
-finances,ftir the years 1852.3. The right hon. gentleman
then proceeded to read the following accounts

15,000

45,457

6,823

3,101

nfDiAN FlN'ANcr.'-1552.53.
£

convicts
Arms to her Majesty's troops
going to India
Invoice of stores

6,240
87,334

1,355
15,558

£ £

;4/tot

.I. Bengal—
Net rev enue 8.158,809
Local' obarge 2,037,561
L )eal surplus 6;121,248 •
Mirth'lllresteru
ProvinCes—
Revenue ... 5,636,369
Local charges-1,362,030
5 'Local surplug • 1,274,339
MiTty. charges
of Bengal And
North- Westn.
Provinces 5,G07,866
Net revenue of
ditto`,..
Chat, es of ditto 9,C07457
Surplus avail- ,
able for general
purposes of In-
dia ... . ........ — -4,787,721
Ir. aarirar—..
Net revenue-- • 3,727,536
Changes'. .......
Surplus avail-
ablo for general
purposss of In;
di,
111. Bombay— -
Net revenue —
Charges. — 2,941,128
Deficit
Total revenues
of the soveral
Presidencies
Total charges of
ditto
Tot'sl surplus or ----
278287565 458,9'..-.8

ditto
Interitst on Iu-

nation had been very diaieult, and expressly
:with a,view to eliciting talent on the one hand, and moral

dian debt
Charges defray-
ed in England
Total charges 011
Indian rove-
dues. •
Surplus cf in-
come. over. ex.-
.Penditure,,;,.;

as to

- 20,:251,279
- - 10,273,5G3

112,9C3

that plan

qualities on the 04,.11 ar. He regretted that viva 1:,-)e-e
examination was not adopted, as it was calculated to elicit
the moral qualities. (Hear.) Ninety of the candidates
could write in Latin, 85 in Greek, 63 in French ; 58 were
examined in moral science, and upwards of 100 passed
creditably in English and English history. It was a very
pleasing subject to contemplate so large a number of young
men of talent taking such pains, and with such success, to
qualify themselves for the civil service of the country. It
was proposed to establish a new system of education in
India, under a director of public instruction, with 14 di-
rectors under him, regulating the three presidencies. Lord
Dalhousie stated that this system was now in full opera-
tion. The right hon. gentleman then adverted to the navi-
gation of the Godavery, which he said was of great import-
ance, and as to which the Government were making every
exertion ; and there would be every disposition to make
equal exertions in similar cases of other rivers. Having
now gone through all the various topics of finance and po-
litics, the right bon. gentleman add he should advert to the
petition from Madras, which adverted to the old-disputed
question of the government of India. Into that great ques-
tion he could not then, however, enter. He was favour-
able to the principle of" double government;" and although
he bad for many years devoted his attention to Indian affairs,
be fully felt the value of the co-operation of the Court of
Directors. Nor did be believe that any one occupying
;pis office would be likely to lean too much upon them, while
he would find their aid invaluable. No doubt there were
anomalies and absurdities in the present system; but these
were sneall objections to the system, and of no practical con-
sequence, On the other hand, great practical advantage re-
sulted from it. For instance, in the selection of a Governor
for India, how immense was the responsibility. It waaone
of the most difficult selections to be made. An able man
might be selected, who yet might be intoxicated
with power, and commit extravagances. In such a
selection it was important to have tho sanction of such
a body as the Court of Directors. Under their auspices
the selection of Lord Canning was, he believed, most for-
tunate. The power of the Governor-General was nearly
absolute ; but his noble friend was not a man to be led
away by it into any schemes of conquest. His noble friend
would rather endeavour to develops the resources of India,
and would recollect that the illustrious name he bore was
associated with rational liberty and with the principles and
institutions; of a free people. (Cheers.)
A resolution having been proposed pro forma
Mr. BRIGHT said, giving credit to the right hon. gen-
tleman for the desire to do good in his office (and he had
not been in it long enough to do harm), yet there was great
reason to complain that the subject should be brought for-
ward at such a period of the session when no one was pre-
sent. And if the right hon. gentleman was in office next
year (if it was not too much to suppose it) next to the
question of,peace and war, there was no subject of such
importance as that of Indian finance. (Hear.) It was not
an Indian, but an English question. The late Sir R. Peel
had said most truly that any embarrassments in Indian
finance would tell upon English finance. 'And, in point of
fact, the debts of India were really the debts of this coun-
try. The statement of the right hon. gentleman was far
from favourable, and far more so than the facts warranted.
For he (Mr. Bright) believed that the future had in store
for us in Indian finance very great troubles. He disputed
the statements of the right hon. gentleman, and hel'eved
that Indian finance was extremely confused. In Oct.. 1853,
the cash bOlances had fallen from 17,000,0001. to 13,000,0001.
That was the time chosen for conversion of the Five per
Cent. Stock, 24,0'0 0001. in amount. In the year the
Cash balances fell down to 7,500,000/. The Government,
finding themselves falling into the abpss of bankruptcy,
projected a new loan of 5 per cent., with a guarantee of
15 years. He suspected that dishonest means had been '
resorted to in 1853 to keep up false balances, and bolster
up credit. In 1853 the enormous balances acted certainly
as a deception, and proved merely temporary. The
tune question as to the conversion of stock, was as to
the value of money at the time. But it was believed in
India that the balances were actually lying idle and un-
appropriated, so that the effect of their being found miss-
ing would not be to diminish the resources of the Govern-
ment ; in short, that there was a large surplus revenue of
several millions.—,(Mr. Mangles denied this.)—lf the hon.'
member denied this, he could prove it from the pages of
the Friend of India, edited by Mr. Marshman. (Thehon.
member quoted from it the expression, "plethora of
riches," being the most remarkable.) This was in May,
1853; and the impression evidently was that there was
plenty of money—" a belince of 16,009,0001. in the Tree
snry" helve distinctly stated. (Hear.) The false impression
was most improperly created that the 16,000,0001. was a
dispeseble surplus. If the Government were parties to
it they were most blameable. He would ask the Presi-
dent of the Board of C tntrol to observe that from June,
1853, to April, 1855, the balance in the Indian Exche-
quer hid fallen not less than 10.000,0001. sterling. On
the 90th December, 1854, a letter was addressed to
the Government of India to the effect that in the
event of a lean being required for public works in India,
" our consent"—that was to say the consent of the Court of
Directors and the Boer' of Control—must first be obtained
thereto. Bat that regulation had been set aside by Lord
Dalhousie. A loan had been since contracted without any
reference whatever to the Court of Directors and the Board
of Control, and on the announcement of that loan the
value of Indian Stock fell not less than 16 per cent. The
loan of which he spoke was called a public works loan, to
make it appear in this country as if it were to be devoted
to public works in India; but be was afraid that it was
not entitled to that name, for no facts whatever had been
adduced to justify its being so described; and whereas the
statement made by Sir C. Wood, when President of the
Board of Control was, that the expenditure for public
works in India for the last five years amounted to
3,152,0001., according to Mr. Grant the expenditure was
upwards of 9,000,0001., being a difference between the
two statements of 6,090.000'. The fact was that the
construction of civil and military buildings had been
treated as public works, which was an utter absurdity, for
such works were not publieworke in the proper accepta-
ti; n of the term. To call this loan a public works loan was
altogether a delusion ; and if the Government got a six-
pence of the money from anybody in India who fancied
that it was to be laid out 'upon reproductive objects, he
(Mr. Bright) begged to say that they would be obtaining
that sixpence under false pretences. The truth was that
we wanted a radical reform in the whole matter of Indian
finance; in the mode in which the accounts were kept, and
in the mode in which, and the time when, they were placed
before the house and the English public. If there was
cue thing more than another which it was the interest of
the Government to do, it was to have no secresy respect-
ing their finance. (Hear.) If the Government of India had
regard to its own interests alone it would abolish this sys-
tem of secrecy ; and the bringing up in 1855 estimates
of money which had been spent in 1853. ,The hon.
gentleman read a letter signed by the chairman of the
Madras Chamber of Commerce, recommending regular
periodical publications of the public accounts of India, and
deprecating any secrecy upon so important a subject. He
asked why. with a revenue of 30,009,C00/., they ought not
to have a Chancellor of the Exchequer for India instead of
the present system by which there was a kind of divided
authority between three or four individuals, whose state-
ments as to the accounts of Inds were better calculated to
mystify than to explain matters. He must urge the com-
mittee to accept the resolution which he had placed before
them. The right hon. gentleman uttered a fine penegyeic
upon the new Governor-General of India. He (Mr. B.)
was not going to detract from the merits of Lord Can-
ning. He always judged the noble lord as being a man
full of good intentions, laborious, and generally well qua-
lified for the performance of the duties he undertakes. He
would, however, tell him that the question of the finances
of India was at the bottom of the prosperity of India. If
the country were governed by ordinary economy and
ordinary prudence there ought to be a surplus revenue.
The fact, however, was, that at the present moment there
was a heavy debt against India. He would advise Lord
Canning to keep clear of getting into hostilities, and to
avoid the example of Lord Dalhousie, who plunged the
country into a war upon the most flimsy and ridiculous
pretext. He did not want then to go into the opium or
the salt question; but he had ascertained from a gentleman
who had recently arrived in this country that the opium
trade had occasioned the most fearful results in China. As
to salt, he said a taxation based upon a principle so econo-
mically wrong and hideously cruel, must he bad, and ought
to be put an end to by the Government. In reference to the
cruelties practised in Inglis, he appealed to the committee
whether the inquiry that had taken place had not borne
prac-
tice sthteatemmiesnttsfrwighhitefh had been
al
enormitiesn
madea
in that
ths tato
quarter uarte;;
although the hon. member for Honiton (Sir J. W. Hogg)
and the member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles) hail endea-
voured to cast ridicule upon his hon. friend the member for
Poole (Mr. D. Seymour), when he rose in that house to
t expose the system of cruelty and oppression. He was
anxious that England and England's Parliament should
spread a brighter picture of India before the world than
they had as yet done. He believed that by a complete
change of system, India would attain a position of the
highest eminence and prosperity; and that the Govern-
ment that would carry out such a change would achieve
for themselves an imperishable renown. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. W. HOGG said the hon. member for Manchester
never referred to Indian affairs that he did not attack, not
only the conduct,.but also the motives of those who took
part in the Government of India. The hon. gentleman had
referred to his (Sir J. W. Hogg) holding office anti reaping
large revenues from India. Bat he should say what he
made he made by his own industry and ability. He had
not a single friend when he landed on the banks of the
Ganges.. Yet he worked his way with industry and perse-
verance ; and when he took office finally he took it for the
ease it afforded, though in doing so he sacrificed much of
his emolument. (Hear, hoar.) He admitted in the broadest
manner that cases of torture were to be found in India. In
Madras, with a popnlation of 22,000,000, after the issue of
a proclamation by the government for information on the
subject, 384 applications were made of a personal character
and 425 of a written character—not ao great a number after
all, considering a population of 22,000,000. The finding of
the commission admitted that personal violence was prac-
tised by officials in the collection of revenue, and in police
cases ; but it also added that they (the commissioners) were
bound to state their opinion that the practice had of late years
been decreasing, as well in amount of suffering as in extent.
Ho would now approach the subject of finance relative to
which the hon. member for Manchester was somewhat more
tranquil. He (Sir J. Hogg) was certainly not as expert in
the arcane of figures as the hon. gentleman ; still he had
made no allegation against the Court of Directors which he
was not able to refute; though it must be acknowledged
it was rather difficult to follow the hon. gentleman throngh-
out his statement, for he kept quoting everywhere, right
and left, first from the hon. gentleman the President of the
Board of Control, and then from the Friend of India;
culling from each according as it suited his purpose. The
hon. gentleman commenced his statement relative to this
Part of the subject by pointing to the largeness of the
balances retained in the Indian treasury, and to the ex-
treme variation which they underwent. Now he (Sir J.H.)
was sorry to be obliged to admit that to carry on the ma-
chinery of the government of India it was indispensable that
there should be, in the different treasuries spread through-
out India, balances to the amount of between 9,000,0001. and
10,000,000/. sterling, which lie there, he-readily allo ved,
perfectly unproductive. That necessity arose, in great mea-
sure, on account of the enormous payments that had to be
made, the difficulty of transport throughout such an im-
mense extent of territory, and from all the payments having
to be made in silver. He believed, however, that the clay
was not far distant when the requisite balances would not
amountto more than 4,000,000/., and that would be when
India enjoyed the advantage of railway communica-
tion
exptlhaeineTinngeereealitYmoeafsumrei,ntthaeinfiancgt such
liar sorge
greatly varying. And now for the matter of the loan,
which he certainly was prepared to defend. The hon gen
tleman the President of the Board of Control had, however,
declared that night that it was not his duty to defend the
loan. Now, he (Sir J. Hogg) would tell him that it was
his ditty to defend the Governor-General of India if he
was in the right, and it was his duty to denounce him if he
was in the wrong. Now, at was the .state of the Four
per Cents, at the time of the loan ? 'that time tho Four

;,133,716

2,011,971
2,697,485

5,401

Total 3,367,480 493,650
Net increase 2,861,530
Note—
Excess of income over expen-
diture, 1852-53 424,257
Excess of expenditure over in-
come, 1851-55 ..2,670,518 _ _ _ . _

3,091,775
He Was aware that the deficiency was somewhat large, but
it chiefly arose from a cause with respect to which the peo-
ple of this country' could not find fault, viz , the large
amount, expen,led upon public works. He did not think
that the House of Commons could complain of tbis expen-
diture, for no subject had been more frequently and perti-
naciously pressed than the necessity for the undertaking
of those works. His right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood) in
bringing this subject before the house last year, bad, while
he lamented the deficiency which then appeared, frankly
confessed that he had but little hepe of its being made
good. Ho (idr. V. Smith) wished to deal with the com-
mittee as openly as his right hon. friend, and he would
therefore advert briefly to some of the items seriatim.
The first subject for consideration was the question 'of
land revenue. Now, it would be impossible to increase
the amount raised from that source of revenue by in-
creasieg_ the tax ;
,that was admitted on all hands ; but
it was hoped that by following the contrary system, viz.,
by lowering the rate' a larger gross return might be ob-
tained... This was not a crude notion of his own. A re-
port bad been made by Mr. Caulfield on the subject,
who, after carefully examining and maturely considering
the facts, stated that by decreasing the rate much land at
present unoccupied would be brought into cultivation, and
the gross revenue from this head increased. By this means
a twofold object would bo gained—the relief of the tax-
payers and the increase of revenue. The next item was the
duty on opium. In this a large decrease was experienced,
but that might be expected, as the consumption of that ar-
ticle was a mere matter of fashion, and as such liable to
great fluctuation. It might be hoped that when the present
troubles. in China were at an end the revenue from this
source would rise to its old level. With regard to the next.
item, the revenue from salt, under that head a slight in-
crease was exhibited. He might mention' to the committee
that an endeavour had been made to place the collection of
this br)nch of. revenue upon a better footing, bnt some
little difficulty had been found in the matter. In the cus-
toms th4e had been a small falling-off. He was inclined to
think that it would be for the advantage of India if ex-
port duties were abolished, if that could be done with-
out injury to the revenue. Various schemes hactbeen laid
before them, and one of the substitutes proposed was an
addition to the tax on salt—a proposal which of course he
could not agree to. It was difficult to carry out free-trade
principles in regard to this point, in a country in which no
such substitute could be found for them like the income tax
in this country. It would be dangerous, in his opinion, to
try other experiments in India at present. Though there
bad been a falling, off in the whole revenue of India, he did
not entertain the least fear with regard to it, as he thought
the re' venue would rather go on to increase than diminish
nftet the public works for developing the resources of the
country 'were.coinpleted.

Si WILLOUGHBY wished to knowthetotal amount
of the revenue of last year.
Me. V. SMITH said it was
.20,337,27 H. Let them look
at the expenditure. The great item in the expenditure
was, of courasa the army. He believed no one would pro-
pose to reduce the army at the present moment. It was
something to say that they had an army in India of
3205P0, upon whom, if recruiting failed in this country,
they coutfl rely, and it comprehended a cavalry, the
irregular horse, who might be of great use at the Capo and
in the-Crimea, •It would not lett wise, therefore, to reduce
the Indian army. The expenditure for public works was
not made till it was needed, and for that expenditure the
House of Commons was responsible. The reduction of the
interest on the debt had not been carried out as his right
hon. friend anticipated. The reduction had been checked
by the loan wli,ich it was found necessary to raise in March
last. Fie did not intend t 6 enter into the defence of that
loan. All the papers connected with -it had been pro-
duced, and were before the house. The Court of Direc-
tors had taken. steps at the commencement of the year to
meet the difficulties of a deficiency of funds, and had pre-
vented an increase of drafts on India.- It would have
been unjustifiable if his right hon. friend had done other-
wise than take advantage of the opportunity to reduce the
interest, ofthe debt. His only doubt was whether he had
sufficiently appreciated the increased demands arising
from public works. Every means had been considered for
the reduction of the expenditure. It was worth consider-
ing whether the cash balance of 8,000.0001. was not too
large a ono to be kept in India. The directors and Board
ef -Control were not insensible to the necessity for economy,
and in a despatch sent out on June 27, 1855, a revision of
salaries was recommended. Lord W. Bentinek had. suc-
ceeded in reducing the expenditure from 3,155,134/. to
927,1671. in two years, but no such reduction c ultl now be
made, because the chief part of that reduction had been in
the expenditure for the army. The money oxpeaded on
public works was not to be considered as lost, but as pro-
fitably invested. He came now to what he must call the
brilliant political prospects of India. " The most perfect
, tranquillity and peace prevailed throughout India at pre-
sent. The Governor-General had entered into a treaty with
Ava, and a treaty, a very valuable one, had been entered
into with Cabul. By the latter treaty the western frontier
would be secured. With regard to Persia, the British
Minister had to cope with the diplomacy of Russia, and
the exeggerated promises which Russia held out to the
Shah a but at present there were no difficulties with that
power. They had heard much of Russian influence in
every part of the East. By the report of the commissioner
of that country, it was gratifying to know that in the
countries bordering on Khiva, so far from the Russian
army being threatening, it had been reduced by the war in
turope, and was unusually weak and inactive. It was ab-
surd to suppose that the war against Russia in Europe was
continued from any fear of her aggression in the East. The
Indian'navy was in a state of so great improvement, that
his-right hon. friend might soon be able to withdraw
itish vessels of war from those seas. Besides the roads
and canals that wore in progress, the electric telegraph had
been established, and many hundreds of miles of railway
completed. These internal improvements had cost a large
sum, and he believed if more attention had been paid at
first to centralisation of companies and uniformity of ac-
tion sonic expense would have been saved. But it was
too late for that now. The electric telegraph had been
completed mainly through the exertions of Dr. Shaugh-
nessy, and. a Proposal had been submitted by another gen-
tleman for the establishment of the electric telegraph be-
tween India and this country by way. of Egypt. His right
lion. friend had not been able to prodnce the bill which be
had pmtnised on civil and criminal procedure, bat he had
been able to introduce a bill for the establishment of a re-
sident instead of an itinerant judge in the strait settlements.
He must not omit the question of justice and police, and,
above all, the' commission as to torture. (Hear, hear.)
This was a painful topic.' It was impossible to deny that
there had existed in Madras Presidency a' practice of ad-
miuietering.torture for the purpose of compelling payment
of taxes or extorting confession of crime. (Hear, hear.)
The only consolation was that no European appeared to
have been personally implicated in the infliction of such
tortures.:. No doubt the European officials were nearly as
culpable for overlooking such a system—(hear, hear)—as if
they had been concerned in it. (Hear.) And the system
Was utterly abhorrent to English feeling. (Hear.) The
governor of the presidency had done all in his power to
suppress it when it had been brought to light, and had
passed an not for the purpose ' and he (Mr. V. Smith)
assured the house that it should not be allowed to sleep.
bnt that the system should be entirely abolished. (Hear.)
With regard to the great question of administrative reform.
it bail actually been carried out by an act of Parliament in
1853, enforcing a due regard to merit in the distribution
of civil 'appointments. Upon his coming into office he (Mr.
T. Smith) had taken great pains in appointing a board of
examiners. Not less than 113 t andidates were examined,
and it appeared that 32 came from Cambridge,. 19 from
Oxford,
..14 "frbin Teibity College, Dublin, 15 from the
§o.teh universities, Several from the Irish colleges, -and a

::.~;

_ _-4,70:1,459

424;457

f3w from the public schools. Of those who obtained ap- per Cent. Loan was at par, and pending the conversion it
rents., eight were from Oxford, six from Cambridge, remained at par. Now, it: succe3s was to be considered ai
sanairl number from the Irish colleges. The exami- a teet of the vir:;nes of a seilme, there could be 'no doubt

aerd t.S C

t for the conversion, for
t. Now, with refcrenco

,s eminently successi

to th; Five per Cent. oan, he ws,uld. gay at once Liao real
question was, ought the Government to have foreseen the
causes which rendered it nectssary to open such a loan?
Well, here were the circumstances Tinder which it was
negotiated? In the first place, it was discovered, after
an estimate duly sketched, that there would be a deficiency
fer the current year in the revenue over the expenditure
of nearly 2,000,0001. About May 1, the balances through-
out India would be reduced to a sum of 8 000,0001., the
balances in the Calcutta Treasury being perfectly exhausted,
while at the same time the rate of money was so high
that the Bank of Bengal was charging 11 per
cent. upon the deposit of Government Securi ties. Then
the Russian war broke out, which had the effect here of
driving Consols down nearly 10 per cent., while this very
loan was at a discount of only 5 per cent. Again, the hon.
gentleman was quite right in stating that the G wernment of
India had become alarmed, and consequently deemed that
some precautions were necessary. Now, in the preced-
ing six weeks, the Home authorities had drawn upon
India bills to the amount of 2,000,0001. sterling. 'Well,
with bills drawn upon them to such an extent—with an
empty exchequer at Calcutta with a deficiency of
7,000,0001. in the balances, and the rate of exchange
rising every day—in presence, also, of the fact, that the
demand for public works during the, preceding years
exceeded the amount of the loan, while the demand for
this year was actually greater, there also came out to
India the despatch containing the order of July, 1854,
' from the Court of Directors, that the Government was to
proceed with the public works, and was to meet the ex-
penditure out of the balances in hand: Well, under such
circumstances the Government of India felt that they
were necessitated to raise a loan at 5 per cent. without the
knowledge or approval of the Court of Directors. That
approval, however; had not since been withheld, and in-
stead of reprobating the governor and council, the Court
of Directors had commended them for what had been
done as being the best under , the circumstances. The
hon. gentleman the member for Manchester had treated
in a most cavalier manner the statements of gentlemen of
the highest position, and connected with India. He had
spoken thus of Mr. James Bell, of Ur. Doran, who might
be said to have occupied the post of a Chancellor of the
Exchequer under Lord Ellenborough's administration ;
and of Mr. Peacock, a gentleman who formerly occupied
one of the most distinguished positions at the English bar.
The next question which the hon. gentleman touched upon
was the effect of our annexations upon the revenue. Now,
in. 1852, the annexation of Pent took place ; and for 1852-
53, the revenue was only 4,6581.;° for 1853-54, it was
124,116'.; while for 1855 it was 216,7191. With respect to
the time of making the Indian financial statement in that
house, be could assure the hon. gentleman the member for
Manchester that he was as anxious as the hon. gentleman
himself that that statement should be made at an early
period of the session ; and he should add, that he was as
unable as the hon. gentleman to understand why a night
might not be devoted at the commencement of the session
to the consideration of that most important subject. He
pledged himself, that as far as he was concerned, he would
do everything in his power to have the Indian accounts
brought down to the latest possible moment. (Hoar, hear.)
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE said he believed that the
speech of the hon. baronet who had preceded him con-
sisted mainly of an attempt to mystify the house in respect
to as cruel a case of oppression as had ever been brought
under the notice of a deliberative assembly. He confessed,
that with regard to the question of the loan, it seemed to
him the hon. baronet had succeeded to a considerable ex-
tent in placing that matter on a more favourable footing
' than that on which it had been left by the hon. member
for Manchester.. But ha contended that the statement of
the hon. baronet in reference to the tortures inflicted by
the police of India on the unfortunate natives was utterly
unsatisfactory, and even inexcusable.' The commissioner.;
themselves stated that, among the principal- tortures re-
sorted to in those cases, were the, following :—Twisting
ropes around the arms and legs, lifting up by the mous-
tachios, searing with red:hot irons, placing insects on the
most sensitive parts of the body, beating with sticks, and
putting pepper in the eyes. These were facts reported by
the commissioners, and those were practises of which
the hon. baronet thought it sufficient to say that they
were exceptional cases. Why of course they were
exceptional cases, and could only be exceptio table in the
most barbarous and brutal country in the world ; but that
was no answer to the charge that they were ever tolerated.
(The hon. and learned gentleman here read from the evi-
dence taken before the commissioners other passages, which
went to show that the utmost violence, fraud, and cruelty
were practised by the police in India.) Another subject to
which he thought it his duty to advert was the continuance
of the salt tax, which he could not help regarding as one
of the most impolitic and most odious of imposts. He
earnestly hoped that the right hon. gentleman the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control would take the necessary
steps for insuring at the earliest possible moment the aboli-
tion of that tax. He believed also that a reform in the
judicial tribunals of India was imperatively demanded.
The union of the offices of judge and of revenue collector
in the same person was a source of the grossest abuses, and
necessarily led to the habit of entrusting to the most
incapable hands the discharge of the most difficult and im-
portant duties. Allusion had been made in the course
of that discussion.to the ernbarassed condition of the In-
dian finance; and upon that subject he should observe
that it appeared to him the embarassment in question
must be owing in some measure to the number of officials
in our Indian possessions who received extravagantly large
.salaries. He thought that we were deeply culpable as re-
garded much of our past conduct in India, but he was
willing to hope, from the speech of the right hon. gentle.
man that evening, that we were at length about to begin
to discharge the long arrears which had accumulated
against us in that unhappy country.
Mr. OTWAY said he feared that a desire for the an-
nexation of new territories had of late years been increas-
ing among 'the members of the Government of India.
He believed it would bo found that under the adminis-
tration of Lord Dalhousie mere territory had been an-
nexed to our Indian empire than by some five or six of
the Governors-General who hail preceded him. There
was one remark in the speech of the right honourable
gentleman the President of the Board of Con-
trol which he considered as a most ominous one, because it
led him to apprehend that the Governor General had al-
ready cast his eye on the territory of the King of Oade,
with a view to its annexation. He earnestly trusted, how-
ever, that the right hon. gentleman would give the noble
-lord to understand that such a measure, which was opposed
to the policy recommended by our greatest Indian states.
men, would not meet with his approbation. On the subject
of Indian finance generally, and more especially in refer-
ence to the outlay on public works, he found it very dif-
ficult, if not impossible, to arrive at any definite conclu-
sion. Ho understood that the difference between the
sum stated by the right honourable baronet the present
First Lord of .the Admiralty and that stated by Mr.
Grant to have been expended on public works in 'mils
amounted to not less than 6,000,0001. Ho not only ob-
jected to the amount expended upon public works, but
to the manner in which it had been laid out.- The pub-
lic roads made were very few, and the number of rail-
roads much smaller than they ought to be. The works
chosen to be carried out were badly chosen, and there had
been especial neglect in the development of water ceermu-
nication in India. The hon. gentleman the member for
Honiton said that the number of letters in answer to the
notification of the commissioners was very few, and that
there had been no complaints with regard to the conduct of
Europeans; whereas the commissioners reported that in the
space of three months there had been 959 complaints. The
hon. member for Roxburghshire said that the thumb-screw
was not used in India ; but there was a mass of testimony
to show that the police used that engine of torture to a
large extent to extort confessions, and a number of mis-
sionaries testified to the employment of that torture to
compel the ryots to pay their taxes. It was proved beyond
doubt that this horrible torture had been resorted to, and
with the cognisance of tho European authorities;' and he
trusted that it would not again be attempted to contra-
dict such testimony. In the Madras presidency the prac-
tice was universal, but it was not confined to that part of
India. In Bombay a gross case of torture had occurred,
resulting in the death—he might say the murder—of an
isilividual ; and in this case the European officer had not
ehu'tn that vigilance be ought to have done. He believed
if the noble lord the present Governor-General of India
only acted up tin the spirit of his speech, he might render
illustrious in India a name beloved in Europe as was that
of his great father.
Mr. HENLEY said the thanks of the country were due
to the hon. member for Poole for bringing the subject of
tortura,so distinctly before Parliament. Another matter
had come most painfully out in the course of the inquiry
—namely, that persons in office in India had no know-
ledge of what was done by persons in their awn employ-
ment. It was extremely painful to find these matters,
which had been stated in the report, treated so lightly' as
they had been by the honourable baronet the member for
Honiton. The hon. baronet seemed to wish the house
to believe that the merchants and commissioners knew
nothing of the matter. But this forced the fact on 'the
horse that the Government was culpably ignorant. The
hon. baronet argued that the surgeons of the gush knew
nothingof those cruelties, and that, therefore, there could
have been no serious wounds, but this only proved that the
Europeans were not aware of what was going on around them.
The facts were, however, now known • public opinion was
brought to boar on the subject, and doubtless they would
be put down. But he (Mr. Henley) thought the governing
body of that countrycould not be exempt from blame when
such practices existed without being known, or if they were
known, perthitted by the government.
Sir C. WOOD said that now tne fullest information of
the factsin question wasobtained, the government of India
would lose no time in putting an end to such a disgraceful
state of things as had been disclosed by the exertions of the
hon. member for Poole. With respect to the statements of
the hon. member for Manchester, it was obvious that they
referred to another period as regarded the actual expendi-
ture on civil works. Ho (Sir C. Wood) stated the average
expenditure on civil new works in 1852 at 700,0001. Mr.
Grant's statement of expenditure, viz., 1,600,0001. in 1834,
offered no discrepancy as to the facts.
Mr. BRIGHT said the figures might be made to a.greb,
but it would be by including things which werenot strictly
public works.
Sir C. WOOD said the discrepancy was none, because
for Mr. Grant's purpose all money for repairs, as well as
for new works, was included. The hon. gentleman said
the statement of Indian finance on the subject of the loan
made by him (Sir C. Wood) was intended to deceive the
house. There was no use in talking of the balances, as they
varied. That in April, 1853, was 15,500,000& This gave
about 5,500,0001. available for any purpose to which it was
requisite to be applied. For four years there had been an
annual increasing surplus. For that the Four per Cent.
Loan was kept open, and it being obvious that the Fiveper
Cent. Loan was unnecessary, it was the duty of the Govern.
ment to reduce the 5 per cent. to 4, as it would be
unjust to call upon the people of India to pay the difference.
After this operation bad been effected a change of circum-
stances took place, rendering it necessary to raise a Five
per cent. Loan for the purposes of the country. The first
circumstance he gave his attention to when he accepted
the pest of President of the Board of Control was to endea-
vour to establish friendly relations with the western fron-
tier of our Indian dominions. He could not too highly
praise the conduct of Lord Dalhousie in the war which had
been, as it were, forced upon him. That noble lord had
acted with so much judgment that ho was enabled to put
an end to wars, to obtain large acquisitions of territory,
and to lay the foundation of amicable relations with other
powers. The successor was well selected, and he augured
the 1).34 for the appointment.
Mr. WHITESIDE referred to the complaints against the
civil tribunals, and he thought it was the duty of the autho-
rities to look well to that matter. He must refer to one
circumstance connected with the government of India—
namely, that-though Scotchmen were constantly appointed
to high judicial situations in ludia, no instance was on
record of an Irishman being selected.
Sir C. WOOD said the Crown made the appointments.
Mr. WHITESIDE—Then the Crown had acted in an
illiberal and an unjust manner towards Irishmen.
Mr. MANGLES adhered to his statement that torture