The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-17 00:00:00

means now at their disposal, and he was satisfied that at'
present no system would be successful which was not, to a
certain extent, a denominational system. (Hear, lipar.)
Assuming, then, the two princiffes of State interference
and religious teaching, it remained to be seen what were
the other requisites for an efficient educational I:mess
sure. Ho thought there were two others. They must
have a full recognition of, and a satisfactory means of in-
cluding, the schools now in existence. He did not believe
that any scheme would work which undertook to remodel
the whole educational system de novo, and excluded or re.
fused to recognise existing schools. He was quite aware
of the inefficiency of the existing means of education ; he
knew that our schools were insufficient in number and in-
adequate in the quality of the teaching they afforded, but
still they gave instruction after their manner to a large
portion of the population, and many persons took an in-
terest in them, and any scheme for sweeping them away
would meet with such opposition that it could not piss
through Parliament. His right hon. friend's bill allowed.
these schools to stand aloof—it was a permissive, not a com-
pulsory measure. It permitted them to j oin on two reasonable
and simple conditions. The *et, that of inspection, followed
almost necessarily the principle of a Government grant,for,
if Government gave assistance to a school from any public
funds, the persons who contributed to those funds ought to
know in what manner they were expended. The other
condition which his right hon. friend desired to impose was
more important—it was that of making the religious teach-
ing in all State-assisted schools optional, not compulsory.
He believed it was only by means of such a permission that
the existence of denominational schools, supported by the
State, could be reconciled with common justice towards the
various schools at present in existence. A purely denoixd.
national system would necessarily be productive of great
unfairness towards those sects which, being small and scat-
tered, could not establish schools of their own, and in
order, therefore, to do justice towards such 'religions
communities, it was not enough to give them the means
of establishing schools of their own ; but they must also
have legislative permission for the children belonging to
them to frequent the schools established by public grants
without being required to attend religious teaching.
Although he had listened with interest to his right hon.
friend's statement upon this point, he was not quite
sure how far he meant to go, but he was sure that this
scheme could not be worked out unless it were broadly
laid down that attendance upon all religious teaching should
be optional with the parents of the children. He did not
understand how there could be any objection to such a pro-
vision. He could understand and respect the feelings
of a man who claimed religious equality, but he could not
understand the feelings of those who said they would. not
allow the children of other sects to go to their schools un-
less they were permitted to force their own religious teach-
ing upon those children. He had no doubt that this per-
missive provision would meet with much opposition from
various quarters, as it would neither satisfy those who de-
sired an absolutely non-sectarian system, nor those who
desired a purely denominational system; but the principle
upon which it was founded was analogous to that which
had been established 20 years ago, and had since worked
so successfully in Ireland. That part of his right hon. friend's measure in which he proposed the establish-
ment of new schools seemed to him open to serious
objection. (Hear, hear.) He was not ignorant of the
necessity which existed for the establishment of those
schools, and he admitted that the plan of having the
religious teaching in them settled by the majority was the
fairest and most equitable that could be adopted, but he
thought that it was an experiment which would excite a
great deal of angry feeling, and not be likely to succeed. But this was simply an addition to the bill which might be
removed, in no way affecting its general principle. He thought
the measure did all thatcould be expected is the way of reeog-
aising and including existing schools, and it else affirmed
as far as possible the principle of local self-government.
He thought it of great importance that districts were not
compelled, but only empowered if they thought fit, toavail
themselves of this bill, because he knew that in many places
there was a strong feeling entertained against State inter-
ference in matters of education, and this feeling mainly
Arose out of a dread of centralisation. In this bill three
different provisions were made—they provided for Central
direction and advice under the Minis terof the Crown; then
they provided for assistance from the local public fund/ ;
and at the same time, while the bill gave important assist.
ance from the State, it in no way discouraged, but rather
tended to encourage, the exertions of individuals and of
public bodies throughout the country. The bill also recog-
nised various principles which he believed necessary to a
successful educational measure ; it recognised the principle
of religious teaching, also that of including existing schools
in the system ; but, above all, it recognised the principle
of local self-government and management. The rest of
the bill, though very important, was, comparatively speak-
ing, matter of detail, for the full discussion of which ample
opportunity would be afforded. He was very much en-
couraged at seeing the little difference in point of principle
that there was between the present bill and that introduced
from the other side of the house some time ago. He had no
doubt that when the noble earl who presided over the
board of education should introduce the bill, which wall
understood to be in course of preparation, then both that
bill and the present could be referred to a committee, and
on consideration of the two, he hoped that they would not
only be able to carry an additional measure, but that they
would silso:he able to do so by a large majority. (Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the house was not called upon
to pronounce any decision with regard to the measure
which the right hon. baronet now proposed to introduce;
but he now rose to express, on the part of the Govern-
ment, their cordial assent to the motion before the house,
and to say that the right hon. baronet was entitled to
great credit for the large, eomprehensive, and liberal na-
ture of the scheme which he had propounded. (Hear,
hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) oaly wished that he could be
sanguine as to the success of the measure ; but he was
sure that this discussion would be extremely useful. With
regard to the bases on which the measure of the right hon.
gentleman proceeded, he had only to state that they met
with his concurrence. Reference had been made to statis-
tics; and, without pledging himself to their accuracy, he
believed it was perfectly true that at the present time a
large portion of the children of the lower classes re-
ceived only a very imperfect education, or none
at all, and that this was a prolific source of crime.
Zuch a state of things was not creditable to a
Christian and civilised country. liere ..he must
advert to" one point which-had' escaped the notice of
time right hon. gentlernan." In this counts* we had never
yet attempted a compulsory system of education—he meant.
a system which compelled parents, tinder penalty, to send
their children to school. Schools might be multiplied,
but the evil could not be effectually remedied so long as a
large portion of the community was indifferent to the
value of education. Many people would not send their chil-
dren to school if they could make a profit of their labour.
He did not say that ho was prepared to attempt a com-
pulsory system, but he believed that until it was attempted. a large portion of the community would remain unedu-
cated. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman in think;
big that the voluntary system had failed to accomplish the
objects intended.' It had no doubt done much goad, but it
had not been able to keep pace with the increased popula-
tion of the country. He believed that there would be diffi-
culty as to the mode of applying the money raised for the
purposes of education, but he thought; that the scheme of.
educational boards was one as good as 'could 'be 'framed.'
He was afraid that in the country districts the permissife. -
nature of the measure might render the proposed system
of little real benefit. He agreed that' it would be impos-
stoi
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would be very great. They were, he concluded
from the statement of the right hon. baronet, to be schools
in accordance with the religious views of the majority of
the inhabitants in the particular district. In the country
districts ' the majority would belong to the-Established
Church, and, in that case, was no provision to be made,
for the education of the Children of those who dissented.
from the Church ? The amount ot theproposedrato was not
stated. (Sir J. Pakington—The maximum would be lid.)
He (Sir G. Grey) fully agreed that the generalfeeling of the
country was that religion should be connected with any sys-
tem of national education. This fact, he believed, had been
sufficiently proved in the debates on the Manchester and
Salford Bill. The supporters of that measure were of
opinion that children should receive religious instruction
when they were net at school. Mere was, therefore, no
irreconcileable difference blitween the views of the right
hon. baronet and of those who were the advocates of what
was termed the secular system. The only objection which
he should have to referring the bill to a committee was,
that they might be travelling over the same ground which
they had investigated when the Manchester and Salford .
Bill was before the house, and thus there might be an in-
definite postponement of legislation on the subject. He
trusted that the right hon. ronet would not press the se-
cond reading of his bill before Easter, and that -when the
house cameto its consideration in detail, it would 410 so with
a determination to accelerate the progress of education in
this country. It had been said that pupil-teachers re-
ceived
so high an education that they left the business of
teaching to engage in other callings. He said that they
should endeavour to elevate the education of the teachers,
and to make their occupation more worth their while by
giving them higher salaries. (Hear, hear.) Ps hadl also
been said that the grants of the committee of council had
not been fairly administered amongst the pcArer:cl asses.
He found from a Parliamentary return that in. Sp]t alfields
there had been grants amounting to 770/. ; in St. George's.
in-the. Bast, grants amounting to 2,8001. ; in St. Mary's,
Tothill-fieldg, grants amounting to 1,3501..; in White-
chapel, grants amounting to 1,060 ; and in the different
districts of Bethnal-green, grants amounting to 9,062/.
(Hear, hear.) He merely now would add thitt he gave his
most cordial assent to the introduction of the bill, and
that he hoped it would tend to advance the cause of edu-
cation
in t is country. (Hear, hear.)
Lord It. CECIL condemned the bill as not differing ap-
preciably from the secular system, and challenged the
fairness of the right hon. baronet's statistics.
Mr. W. J. FOX cordially re-echoed the sentiment of
the right hon. baronet, that the advocates; of all the dif-
ferent schemes should endeavour to approximate to each
other, and to concede all that was possible for the sake of
obtaining some general scheme. In that spirit Lo was
willing to consider the bill now brought before the house,
and ho regretted that the noble lord who last spoke had
not done the same. Ono feature in this bill he particu-
larly admired
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educated.er were to be free ; and
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if the great masters made education a condition of
of the secular system, but he would not allow id
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his preference of that system to stand in the way of a can-
did and even grateful consideration of the hon. baronet's
b

Mr. M. GIBSON also agreed with much that was in
the bill. The rock a-head, he feared, was that in every
school supported by rates some religion or other was to be
taught. Ho was sure the sincerely religious people of this
country would not agree to support all sorts of religion out
of rates, and therefore ho would far rather leave religion
to be taught in separate hours and by, differentth teat
he wachoeuru
and he took this opportunity of giving notice
on an early day move for leave to bring in a bill for free
schools on the secular system, so that the house might
have all the schemes before them together.
Mr. ADDERLEY preferred this bill to Lord John
Russell's.
Lord PALMERSTON—I am sure the house is greatly
indebted to the right hon. bait. for the most interesting and
able speech with which he prefaced his motion, showing as
it did, that he had given his powerful and vigorous mina to
the investigation of one of the most interesting and impor-
tant subjects to which a public man can devote his atten-
tion. With regard to the measure he proposed, until it is
laid before the house, and we have.seen the details printed,
I think it would be premature to express any decided opi-
t nion upon the comparative merits of the scheme of the
right hon. bait. and that of my noble friend the member
for the City of London And heie I may remark that I
think, in truth, some of the olsservations of the hon. gen-
tleman who last addressed the house oa the bill of my
neble ftiend, rather anticipated future discussions, and
perhaps therefore were not exactly in point on the present
occasion. It is true, as stated by the sight hon. bait-,
that there is a great want of some more efficient system
for the education of the lower classes. I cannot, however)
help thinking that ill ache dews* he hat; vauggratvd the