The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-13 00:00:00

LORD JOHN RUSSELL'S STATEMENT.

Lord PALMERSTON laid upon the table some
papers by command of her Majesty, on the subject of
the recent negotiations at Vienna. The noble lord said
—I may be allowed to take this opportunity of advert-
ing to the motion of the right hon. member for Bucks
\lr. Disraeli), for this evening, that to-morrow the
" orders of the day" should be postponed, for the pur-
pose of enabling the hon. baronet the member for Herts
to bring on his motion. To that motion her Majesty's
Government will object for this reason, that the papers
new laid upon the table aro such that they should be
read by hon. members before coming to the discussion
of that motion. After to-morrow the Government
would cffer no objection whatever to the bringing for-
ward of the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I will, with the permission of
the house, take occasion to refer to a question which I
understand was put in my absence by the right hon.
member for Bucks, as to whether I bad obtained her
Majesty's consent to the statement which I male
respect to the proceedings in the Cabinet of which
I am a member. What I had stated with respect to the
Cabinet was either what was perfectly well known, or
might have been inferred by any one who had followed
the course of recent events. Count Buol had thought
proper to issue a circular, which appeared in the public
wipers, in which he referred
,to a confidential communi-
cation with M. Dronyn de 1 Huys and myself. I stated
seeiginthelplibe--
Olt the communication of the Austrian Government
hostilities or to
had,3ve bt2heant eneoe
oinclee recdou bi(yi
shueprp
03,,,Ieajtytehsat:s advisers.h
ad made a
.AwusttoriapnutGatolveenrndmteonht
Ipireoppaopsietrisontlwiaitt,at:hlde
take part in the war, that the English Government would
t been assented to. I con-
have refused altogether t look into or consider those
propositions.propositions
statedsiti
o ns
of which every one
fhtiardatrelor that upon a full considera-
tionceive that must have been a fact
in
any
nropo.
Inuit have been aware, because if early
sition of tbb had been assentiNl
or 41;rt!:(-r
n forthmr e,rnolu,',,atien with R_1,4,1-*-,
~Yla
1..
to thereYwould have
• an :,.." ‘*
stated •ul, 11 that suljt,et which seemed to we to
that I shonl-t ask the ro,s.nt of her Majesty to the stAie•
nisnt which I made. As the right hon. gentleman h is
raised the sulj2et, I have submitted the question to tier
.?,lajesty, who has .heen. graciously pleased_ to sanction
the statement which I Made. I maybe, perhaps, allQWed

to say that with respect to what I stated on a former
night, some very erroneous inferences have been drawn
from what I mid. I thought it necessary, as so much bad
been published, to make a statement of what the Austrian
propositions really were, and what was my opinion with
respect to them. It has been inferred from what I then
stated, that because I said at the end of April or the first
day of May that I thought those propositions might have
been accepted, that I think now these propositions
might form a basis for peace. Such a proposition would
be totally erroneous, and it is entirely contrary to the facts
to suppose that I consider now that these propositions
would form any satisfactory basis for peace. It was my
opinion at the time, as I stated the other day, and I re-
tain the opinion as to what might have been then a satis-
factory proposition. But I believe now that nothing
but a vigorous prosecution of the war will obtain terms
upon which a satisfactory peace can be secured. (Hear,
hear, and ironical cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, it occurs to me that since the
First Minister of the Crown has not thought it fit to
name any day for the discussion of the motion proposed
by the Hon member for Heits, it would have been more
convenient if his noble colleague had not made the state-
ment which he has made upon the subject of the length-
ened narrative with which he favoured the house on Fri-
day night last, which has so greatly disquieted the coun-
try. I do not think that the statement which the noble
lord has made has at all changed his situation with re-
spect to the house, as regards the narrative which he
delivered on the night to which I have referred. I did
not, nor did any one else, on-Friday night maintain that
in consequence of the speech of the noble lord he was
at this moment of opinion that peace ought to be nego-
tiated with Russia upon the basis of the proposition
which he had disapproved on Friday ; that was a point
which was not the least brought into consideration ; but
the point which startled the house, and, I think I may
say, greatly disquieted the public mind in this country,
is that it came out, not by hazard, but from a statement
formally and definitely given, and in a manner well ma-
tured on the part of the noble lord, that he had returned
to England with a project of pacification of which he ap-
proved, and which neither the gnat majority of this
house, nor of the country, either then, or at this time,
or any other time, would sanction, and that he had
recommended that project to his colleagues, but in
consequence of their refusal to adopt it be _ did feel
that be was bound to consider whether it was not
his duty to retire from the Government ; and,
though influenced by their consideration he remained
a member of that Administration, he shortly after-
wards came down to this house and made a speech
which conveyed to the country that lie was an un-
compromising advocate fur the continuance of the war.
(Cheers.) Further, that he had returned from Vienna
with the conviction that an uncompromising prosecution
of the war was absolutely necessary, and conveying also
to this house that he was convinced by his experience at
the conferences that any attempt et negotiation with a
reasonable hope of success was utterly impossible. By
this means he conveyed to the house and the country an
impression that seems to me utterly inconsistent with
the facts of the case. (Cheers.) I do not think the state-
ment which lie has made to the house this evening, that
he is really in favour of a vigorous prosecution cf the
war, will greatly reassure the daunted spirit of the
nation. (Cheers.) I shall not make any observation
with respect to the question which I was obliged to ad-
dress to him in his absence on Tuesday night—a question
which I consider a most constitutional one. The noble
lord has admitted that he had not the royal sanction to
make the communication with respect to tv',at -took
place of which he informed the house. He seems
to think that it was a mere matter of course what
he then stated, that there were other ways of obtaining
the information which he then afforded the house. But
after all, what was the information ? That there had
been discussion and difference of opinion in the Cabinet
—that in consequence of this discussion and this diffe-
rence of opinion upon the• most important question of
the age, he had even contemplated the necessity of ten-
dering his resignation ; that ho was influenced by their
consideration not to take that step. He now says we
might have learned all this from the usual organs of in-
formation, and from the circulars of foreign ministers.
However, I differ entirely with him, and I say that it is
impossible for the house to have information on that
state of affairs, had it not been for the communica-
tion which I have yet to learn he was authorised to
make without having first obtained the gracious
permission of her Majesty. (Cheers.) The noble
lord at the head of the Government has found
fault with the notice of motion which I have placed
upon the paper to-night, the object of which was to in-
sure for the motion of my hon. friend the member for
Herts the opportunity and certainty of its being brought
forward to-morrow night. What were the circumstances
under which that notice was given ? It was on last Fri-
day the noble lord the Secretary for the Colonies made
the speech which has created so painful a sensation in
the country. My hon. friend anticipated the general feel-
ing of the house and of the country in his conviction that
no time should be lost in ascertaining the opinion of the
house with respect to the statements of one of the most
important members of the Cabinet. We are at the pre-
sent moment involved in a war of magnitude, which de-
mands the exertion of our utmost energies, and on the
part of the nation that firmness of spirit which can only
result from having cleat ideas of what is the conviction
of those who are entrusted with the management of
affairs, and who are called upon to use their utmost en-
deavours to carry into effect the policy which we sanc-
tion. The people of this country suddenly find that one
of the most eminent members of the Cabinet, who some
weeks ago was addressing the country through this house
in tones which conveyed his conviction that the coun-
try was embarked 'in a great struggle, and that it was
absolutely necessary to summon all their energies to the
contest, they now find that on that very day, or
.a few
days after, he had recommended to his colleagues to end
this quarrel in a manner which, if it had been sane-
tioeed by the house, would show that there is no interest
at stake which justified the immense sacrifices which we
arunow called upon to make. It becomes therefore in.
vitable that not a moment should be lost without the
opinion of the house being taken upon the position of the
Government, as at present constituted, a direct vote
being given as to whether the continuance of this coun-
cil is satisfactory for the country at a moment of such
national exigency. (Cheers.) Now it happened that we
heard from a member of the Administration the most
competent to give proper information on the subject, that
the house was to go into a committee of supply to-mor-
row. This was the earliest opportunity my hon. friend
could command, it was the most constitutional one fur
bringing forward matters of grievance, for what na-
tional grievance can be so great as that the country
ehould be involved in a war of magnitude, conducted
by Ministers who are not unanimous in opinion with re-
spect to the necessity of that war ? (Loud cheers.)
Well, my .hon. friend gave -his notice, and what then
happened t The noble lord the leader of the house in-
stantly changes the order of business for Friday—(hear)
and,. with the recollection of last Friday's debate still in
his memory, and knowing, as every gentleman in this
house knows, whatever his opinions may be, that no
other subject than that has occupied the public mind
since the notice of my hon. friend was given, the noble
lord when asked, according to our forms, what business
he would proceed with on Friday, says, with great com-
posure, "The new Partnership Bill and the Limited Lia-
bility Bill." (Laughter.) These are the measures of
deep and absorbing interest which are to be introduced
to the consideration of the House of Commons at a mo-
ment when there is not a man walking the streets of
London who is not asking, " What is to be the fate of
my country if it is involved in a great war, and that
war is to be prosecuted by a Cabinet which is not
unanimous as to the necessity of the war ?" (Hear.)
What is the Partnership Bill ? What the people of
England want to know is the condition of the partner-
ship in Downing-street. (Hear, and laughter.) They
want to know whether the principle of limited liability
is prevalent in that locality—(great laughter)—or whe-
ther the people are still to enjoy the general and cal-,
lected responsibility of Ministers of the Crown, which
hitherto has been the salutary and constitutional prac-
tice to expect. Sir, the noble lord seemed to demur to
an observation of mine just now—he seemed to express
his incredulity at my statement, that it had been his in-
tention to go into Committee of Supply on Friday night.
Well, suppose it was not his intention, I say it was the
duty of the noble lord to go into Committee of Supply.
All I can say is I received authentic information—it
was known to many gentlemen on both-sides that the
Government would go into Committee of Supply on
Friday night. (Hear, hear.) But if that was not the
intention of the noble lord, I Fay—after the notice of my
hon. friend—he should have said, " We will give
the, earliest opportunity for testing the opinion of the
House of Commons upon a question of this kind."
(Hear.) Heretofore it has been the invariable custom
of the Ministers, when the confidence of the house in
their policy has been questioned, to bring the matter as
' speedily as possible to an issue. But let the house con-
sider the peculiar circumstances under which the ques-
tion of confidence in the Government, as at present con-
stituted, was to be brought forward by my hon. friend.
It is not merely England, but it is Europe, that is
watching anxiously for the discussion now impending.
(Hear, hear.) I should have thought that the noble
lord would seize the earliest opportunity to settle a ques-
tion so important, and would not have remained with
the energies of the Government paralysed, and the cha-
racter of the Government impaired, by a motion of this
gravity impending over him. It is the general feeling
of the country, and, I may say, without prejudging the
issue of the discussion, of the house also, that upon this
subject on early, an immediate, and, I will arid, a corn-
plete discussion ought to take place. (Hear.) Now,
sir, what does the noble lord say to-night? He
says, " Here are some papers which ought to be placed
on the table, and which ought to be read by hon. mem-
bers before they venture to express any opinions upon
the motion of the hon. member for Hertfordshire." Well,
I must say, with my viewsu oftt l the
it is one that can be ueuetsetdionbyat sueainsyp,atphearst
b
which can be laid upon the table. We have something
but affected
more authentic than any diplomatic documents to guide
our judgments on the present occasion. We have the
most authentic evidence in the world. We have the
speech of a Cabinet Minister, the principal actor on the
scene ; and it is on his own confession, on his own reve-
lations, on his own evidence, that I am perfectly prepared
o form my opinion and to give my vote. No doubt, if
the Minister rose and said that he thought it would be
more consonant with the spirit of justice ofa free people
—,,reel %%hie', I hies° will ev,sr pervade the discussions of
so erecestn wit t the deb?te tu-7rtorlew,
have a,:e%tt.,l lo ptcpos'ai. bllolll.]
aplobs)ewd
ti
bf
eh ed tut du
sleutue acted ictol iruferaouck nuepsos ,n and
Monday said h;
rwould
Outaay the courAo he pro-
o
if be
had said, " When you have digested these papers I shall
be prepared to give you a day." Did the noble lord say
that .1 (Hear.) No ; the noble lord stated that in the

course of next week, perhaps, the hon. gentleman might
find an opportunity to bring his motion forward. (No,
no, from the Ministerial benches, and cheers.) I appeal
to the house if it was not so. (Cheers.) Did the noble
lord say that he would go into committee of supply en
Monday ? (Hear.) Not a word of it ; and I dare say
.he intended to take the Scotch Education Bill on that
day, or, if not then, to conclude the debate on Limited
Liability, and perhaps take a vote upon that all-interest-
ing subject. (Laughter and cheers.) If the noble lord
says that on Monday he will go into committee of sup-
ply, so that my hon. friend may then bring forward his
motion, and so that we may have a full discussion on
this important subject, of counts I shall not trouble the
house with the motion which I have placed upon the
paper. (Hear, hear.) Whatever I may think of the
influence of these documents upon our opinion, it will
be quite enough for such an intimation to come from a
person in the position of the noble lord to induce me to
accede to it. But at the Fame time I say that it ought
to be coupled with a clear intimation from the noble lorC
of the time when the discussion will take place. If the
noble lord bad risen to state that on Monday the discus-
sion would take place, all that I should have done would
be to ask the permission of the house not to press the
motion of which I have given notice this evening. 01
course I shall persevere with that motion, and shall ask
the opinion of the house upon it unless I obtain from the
noble lord that which I am sure hon. gentlemen on both
bides of the house expect—namely, an intimation that
hon. members will receive these papers to-morrow, and
that he will on Monday next either give my hon. friend
a day on which to bring forward his motion, or go ipte
Committee of Supply and allow him to fulfil his original
intention. (Cheers.)

Lord PALMERSTON—ReaIIy, Sir, theright hon. gen-
tleman has made "much ado about nothing." (Laughter
and cheers.) In the first place, with regard to what
passed upon a former occasion, I am not aware that my
hon. friend fixed the ComMittee of Supply to take place
on Friday otherwise than in the way in which the Com-
mittee of Supply is always postponed as a matter of
course, from one Supply day to another. But this I will
say, that if I had fixed the Committee of Supply for
Friday, seeing the condition in which the house is
placed with regard to the motion of the hon. baronet,
seeing that the papers, with all the efforts that have
been made to expedite them, could not be laid upon the
table till to-night, and that they would not be in the
hands of hon. members till to-morrow, I should have
pursued in regard to the Committee of Supply the same
course which I announced my intention of pursuing
with regard to the motion of the right hon. gentleman
—namely, I should have postponed the Committee of
Supply, as I intended to oppose the motion, fey the
special and avowed purpose of deferring the discussion
of the question until the papers had been in the posses-
sion of hon. members in time to enable them to read
them. Ido not shrink from the avowal that I should
have taken that course if it had been necessary for me to
do so. But, Sir, the right hon. gentleman, as I have al-
ready said before, makes " much ado about notbing" be-
cause what I stated was this—l stated my cbjection to
take a discussion to-morrow on the motion of the hon.
baronet the member for Hertfordshire, and also the rea-
gun why I entertained the objection ; but I said that after
*morrow I should throw no difficulty in the way of any
arrangement which the hon. baronet might make. Well,
Sir, the right hon. gentleman objects to the totune as not
including the pars. Why, if I gave the hon. gentleman a
whole week, surely I gave him Monday, if Monday would
suit him. It was not for me to settle matters between the
hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire (Sir E. B.
Lytton) and the hon. and learned gentleman the member
for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), .who has a notice upon the
paper for the next day. (Hear, and cheers) I think it
would have been very unbecoming for me- to fix a posi-
tive day for the discussion of a-motion which might list
probably more than one day. I thought that it would be
best not to interfere with the motions of hon. members,
and I left them to make their own arrangements, At the
time I am perfectly prepared to say that if the hon.
baronet wishes to make his motion on Monday, on Mon-
day I will move the committee of supply. (Cheers.) I
have no wish to shrink from the discussion, and I have
nothing whatever to gain from postponing it. (Hear.)
I quite understand, and I am sure the house will under-
stand, that the right hon. gentleman the member for
Buckinghamshire, having found that several motions of
censure and want of confidence in her Majesty's Go-
vernment had failed, in consequence of the house un-
derstanding the subject that was to be discussed, was
desirous of hurrying on the motion of the hon. baronet
before hon, members had mane themselves properly
acquainted with the question. (" Oh, oh. !" and
laughter.) It was a perfectly legitimate tactic on the
part of the right hon. gentleman, and the house will
quite comprehend it. It shows exactly the right hon.
gentleman's appreciation of the case which ho has to
urge, inasmuch Its he feels the great importance of
enabling the house to come to a decisien upon the sub-
ject before they know anything of the real matter under
discussion. (Laughter and cheers.) I have now only
one word more to add with regard to the remarks of the
right hon. gentleman with respect to what has fallen
from my noble friend (Lord J. Russell). The right
hon. gentleman is not satisfied with the remarks of my
noble friend as to the statement which he had made on
a former occasion, respecting a decision of the Cabinet,
but he seems to think that in stating generally that a
certain proposition was considered and. not adopted
my noble friend forgot his duty as a Privy Councillor.
Why, seldom a week passes in this house that some
member dues not get up in his place and ask her Ma-
jesty's Government whether they will agree to certain
things, or whether they have adopted a certain measure. It
is absolutely necessary that we should state what the de-
cisions of the Government are ; but I never before heard
any member pretend to say that the announcement in
public, either in this house or elsewhere, of the decision
of the Government upon any given proposition was a de-
parture from the duty of a Privy Councillor. It would
be perfectly impossible to carry on the business of this
house in a manner satisfactory to the house and to the
public, if the, members of the Government were never to
be allowed to state what was the general decision of the
Government upon any question which might be brought
before them. At present I shall not enter into any
further details, but I hope that I have satisfied the right
hon. gentleman that he and his hon. friend may have
Monday to do what they please with it, and that the
hon. baronet will meet with no obstruction in bringing
forward his motion.
Sir E. B. LYTTON—The noble lord has said that
my right hon. friend has made "much ado about no-
thing." lam not surprised at that, because in point of
chronological order, I think "Much Ado about Nothing"
comes just after "The Comedy of Errors." (Laughter.)
I do not know in what degree the production of these
papers, which in the opinion of the GOvernmerit ought to
be in the hands of hon. members before my motion is din-
caused, may lighten the.charge which it is my intention
to bring against the noble lord, but I am extremely glad
that they should be produced before the discussion is
entered into. It is not my wish, nor can ;it be the wish
of any man, that anything unfair should be done towards
the Government ; and if the production of these papers
will save me from committing an error upon any single
point I shall be happy to have them produced. (Hear.)
Therefore, as far as I am concerned, I accept the expla-
nation of the noble lord, and I accept also the day
which the noble lord proposes. (Cheers.) Perhaps,
however, he will allow me to mention a suggestion which
has bee* made to me, that it would be more convenient
and more suited to the importance of the question if I
were allowed to bring on the resolution as a substantive
motion rather than upon going into committee of supply.
Lord PALMERSTON—I have no objection. (Hear.)

Sir E. B. LYTTON—Then I have nothing further to
say, except that I accept the day which the noble lord
has proposed.
Sir J. WALSH was anxious that the subject should
not drop before the attention of the house was called to
the striking discrepancy that existed between the state-
ment of the noble lord this evening and that which he
had made on a former occasion. In describing the sub.
stance of Count Buol's circular, he (Sir J. Walsh) had
at that time referred to the fact that Count Duel stated
that he was prepared to submit an ultimatum to Rus-
sia, founded on the proposals which he had laid before
the noble lord ; that he was prepared, if these proposals
were adopted by England and France, to lay them be-
fore Russia in the shape of an ultimatum, and to make it a
casus belli if Russia should refuse to accept it; and that the
noblelord gave his full adhesion and approval to these pro-
posals, and agreed to presi their adoption upon his Govern-
ment with all the influence he possessed. The noble lord,
however, in the statement with which ho had favoured
the house to-night had entirely omitted to notice these
material clrcurestances which identified him personally,
in the eyes of Europe, with the acceptance of these pro-
positions, and merely observed in a sort of cursory man-
ner, that of course, as a matter of courtesy to Austria, it
followed that he should not reject and refuse them ; that
they were submitted ou his return to the Cabinet, and
that the Cabinet rejected them. He (Sir J. Walsh)
thought the important point as regarded the noble lord
was that, according to the statement of Count Buol, be
had identified himself personally with the proposals
which bad been:made ; that he bad agreed to support
and bad given his whole adhesion to them; and that, when
he had requested either to affirm or to deny the correct-
ness of Count Buol's statement, he had acknowledged its
accuracy in the most comprehensive terms. That was :s
most material difference, and he should be unwilling that
the house, many members of which might have been ab-
sent when the noble lord replied to his question, should
take their impression from the extremely slight and soft
statement with which the noblelord had favoured the house
this evening.. Before be sat down he might address a
few observations with reference to the two motions of
which notice had been given. It was perfectly true, as
had been suggested, that the motion of the hon. and
learned gentleman the member for Sheffield and the hen.
baronet the member for Hertfordshire were so similar in
character that they involved the same considerations,
and, no doubt, there would bo some inconvenience if
they were both pressed simultaneously on the attention
of the House. It was very probable, considering the
magnitude of the question and the importance and corn-
prehensivene,s of the subject which would be opened by
the motion of the boo. baronet, that the debate upon
that motion would be adjourned. What was the pre-
sent, position of the house with respect to this question
~! r.o•rn 2 Hie 6e-eft hoe frier(' the ifiemb,
ew
things existing at that time ; there was an adjonrne I
debate, Whitsuntide intervened, the negotiations were
brought to a close, and all the important changes took
place which resulted, from the close of the conferences.
The papers were quite ready at that time to be KA-

mitted to the consideration of the house, and they ought
to have been enabled to form a conclusicn on the com-
plete state of things. The motion of the hon. member
For Portsmouth was, therefore, nugatory, and conveyed
no expression whatever of the real sentiments of the
house upon this important question. Two questions
would now be raised by the motion of the hon. baronet
the member for Hertfordshire—first, a question involv-
ing the individual character of the noble lord the mem-
ber for the city of London as a statesman, and the
claim which he would hereafter have on the confidence
of the house and the country. Considering the import-
ance of the position filled by the noble lord in that
house as well as in the country, that question was by
no means a light one. (Hear.) But there was another
question not less important. It appeared clearly from
~be statements which had been made that there bad
been two parties in the Cabinet of the noble lord, one
inclining to the acceptance of the last Austrian pro-
position and another against that acceptance. He pre-
sumed that, as those propositions had been rejected, the
noble lord at the head of the Government had supported
that side of the question. Still it was a most important
question to decide whether he was right or wrong in re-
jecting those Austrian propositions and prosecuting the
war. (Hear.) That was the real question of peace or
war as it now stood before the house, and it was a sub-
ject of so large a nature, embracing so many considera-
tions, that he did not think it could be determined in the
course of one evening. He put it, therefore, to the hon.
and learned gentleman the member for Sheffield whether
it would not be desirable to make some arrangemebt by
which his motion should not interfere with the progress
if the debate on the motion to be brought forward by
the hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire ?

Mr. ROEBUCK—The house will probably consider
that I ought to make some statement after the appeal
which has been made to me. (Hear.) I believe that
the question about to he proposed by the hon. baronet
the member for Hertfsrdshire is really ono of the most
important that can be submitted to the house. (Hear.)
I think that the two questions ought not to be before
the house at the same time; and, therefore, if the de-
bate should be adjourned on Monday I shall accede to
the wish of the house and postpone the motion of which
I have given notice. I have only one object in view,
and I believe that I shall best attain my object by adopt-
ing that course. (Cheers.)_

Lord J. RUSSELL —After what the hon. baronet
the member for Radnorshire has stated, I must say that
nothing which I have said this evening is at all inconsist-
ent with the answer which I gave upon a former ec-
clsion.

Mr. HUTT inquired of the Government whether the
circular of Count Boo! Wfla among the papers to be laid
on the table of the house ?

Lord PALMERSTON—I don't think that that cir-
cular is in the possession of her Majesty's Government.
The papers were then ordered to be laid upon the
table.