The National Register.
London, England, 1820-05-14 00:00:00

Ga4llvonsm—Lord J. RUSSELL moved for large to
bring in a Bill to exclude Grampound from exercising
the right of returning two Members, and to transfer that
right to the Borough of Leeds. He proposed to invest the
right of voting in persons rated at 51. and upwards, and
to the Inhabitants ot the neichbouting villages, amounting
to about thirty. The inhabitants amounted to about
70,000, the number of voters, it was expected, would be
about 7,000. His main object was to deprive a convicted
Borough of the elective franchise. He concluded with
moving for leave to bring in a Bill.
Mr. CANNING admitted the correctness of the prin-
ciple that a Borough convicted of corruption should be
disfranchised—but protested against its being inferred
that he approved of the transfer to Leeds. He also pro.
tested against any general principle being drawn from
this specific proceeding. To that he should be no party.
He ailed for information whether it was intended that
Granspound should be beard by Counsel?
Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the negative, the case
_

having been investigated by Parliament.-
Motion agreed to, Bill brought in, read a Brat time, and
ordered to be read a second time on Friday selinight.
Tat Queen.—Lord A. HAMILTON enquired whether
there was to be any provision made for the Queen, and
when It was to be proposed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that provision for the Queen, as well as other branches of
the Royal Family, would be proposed.
Tas LATI CONSPIRACT.—Mr. Alderman WOOD rose
to move for a Select Committee to examine Charges of
High Trenton against George Edwards.—The evidence
bad come before him as a Magistrate. He Lad mrde every
effort to induce fie highest authority, the Secretary of
State, tointerfere, but in vain. He had thirty depositions,
which he should deem it his du y to read, unless he bad a
Committee; hut he hoped a Committee would be granted.
Edwards was the person who suggested plots, and sup-
plied money, weapons, &c. The worthy Alderman said,
be should persevere, except the authorities would inter-
fere. Threats would have no effect on him.—The case
was similar to that where be had rescued Once men from
destruction who had been trepanned; the difference here
was, the increased atrocity of the crime which the parties
were seduced to commit. He then proceeded to read
the substance of the depositions which detailed minutely
the facts.
Sir R. WILSON seconded the motion for a Committee,
condemning a Spy system, and maintaining that oo Admi-
nistration could. be good which might require the aid of
any such system..
no SPEAKER then put the question.
Mr. BANKES said, that such • motion ought to be
supported either by some case of precedent, or some
analogy in other times ; or it ought to be founded on the
urgent necessity of the case. The motion was totally
inconsistent with every thing he understood constantly to
belong to ihe functions of that House. He (Mr. Bsnkes)
did not deny that Edwards was implicated in guilt, bet
the others who acted with him were not less so: but,
however atrocious the plot, he thought it was shaken at
the present moment, and that no danger could now be
feared from it. What, then, was the object of the hon.
Alderman by this motion? Was it that Edwards should
be brought to justice as a traitor to his country, or to
those associates to whom it would seem he was more
bound? This could not be his object, for, by his own
admission, be would not have him, or any man, punished
with death for that or any other crime, except murder:
but the hon. Alderniin wished that this man should be
sent out of the country ; but this object would be attained
without his motion, said that according to his own state-
ment. What woeld the hon. Alderman say if Si gang of
robbers had laid a plot to plunder his house and attack
his family, and information of the intended attack were
communicated by one of the party? Would lie say to
him, " Go, you are as bad as the rest ; yon deserve no
credit, and ought to be punished." Would the hon. Al-
derman say this, and, after having dismissed his iliformant,
go supinely and stupidly to sleep? He (Mr. Bunkea)
was certain that no man would act so incautiously ; and
were the House to be told that less care was to be taken
for the public than for an individual—There was a great
man, • magistrate of ancient times, and of another court.
try—he certainly did not mean to compare him to the
Worthy Alderman—whose vigilance and integrity had
saved his country from • most font conspiracy. He bail
a different opinion from that entertained by the hon. Al-
derman on the snbject of getting information from some
of the guilty parties. Whatever other opinions might be
entertained of that great man (Cicero), there would he,
lie believed, but one on his conduct on that occasion. He
laid not hesitated to seek and receive information, from
the courtesan Frilvia, of Catalinea designs; anal the am-
bassadors of the Allobroges he encouraged to continue to
attend the meetings of the conspirators,in order that their
designs might be inure fully discovered. —Leger?. preripit
sit Iridium conjurations ockonenter simulent ; calms adroit :
dentque *porno, *tees fawns mace 'e maul-
'l% was the conduct of that great mail
Irate ; and it was a conduct for which
accused by the lovers of their country.
conclusion, the hon. gent. again es-
no ground whatever for acceding to
. rose.—The lion. Member said, that
.bservations on this subject lie heal to
dimes of the House to a young Member
.1 hops he required on this occasion
Al kindness, for lie could not conceal
.ould the hon. Member conceal from
•culiatity of the saltation in which lie
Ae. On this ground, therefore, be hail to
dgence; and lie also needed it In another
'gist be considered a degree of boldness
the purpose of combating the opinions
the long experience and high eh:nuclei
' the !Milk! at large, of the lion. Mem-
dos n. .in might appeal bold in him
titian comiag front such audios iiy—
precedent talk found for what he
idinary a m as was proposed by
a. He (Mr 11.)howevei Owlet an apininsi
Miele's widely has that aieliva ed by
and unless lie was if:mood of every
right and isameg—sautes his view of
'holly ea roiwousw-i he plrbell: was such a
Pal Bayern. naught seriously to consider
had said that the a rinuilial jurisdiction of
not to be meddled with Was at be-
lied never dune so before? Did the
to assert that there were not precis.,

THE NATIONAL REGISTER.

dents for the interference of the House in matters of
criminal jurisdiction? On looking at the whole of the
subject with which the present question was connected
and recollecting the conduct of that House on other oc-
casion*, he saw no reason why inquiry should be refused.
The Hon. Geotleman bad 'Boded to the practice of an-
cient times, and mentioned Cicero as having sought lit-
formation of Cataline's plans from Fulvia and the legates
of the Allobroges ; but it did not appear that Cicero had
employed either Fulvia or the Alluhroges to make that
plot. There was, be conceived, no analogy between
the two cases. He believed also, that if the opinions of
some of the wisest end best of the ancients were sought,
they would be found to be more in favour of the princi-
ple that spies should be punished, than that they sliculd
be encouraged. Snetonions was so adverse to the system
of spies, u to reckon them inter advents temporises. Titus
held them in such a light that be ordered them to be
whipped from the camp.—(Hear I bear.) The Right
Honourable Member would excuse him for going into
those cases, but be himself had led the way by his re-
ference to ancient history)—Coustantine was still more se.
vere, fur be ordered spies to be put to death. But this
hatred so spies, and this discountenaoce of that .stern, was
not confined to good Emperors solely. Among the bad
Emperors also were found some who justly appreciated sdclt
characters. Cathode said be bad no ears for spies; and it
was observed by Domitian, that Princeps gni Motor's non
cooligat, irritat. So far for the opinion of the ancients--
He would now come to modern times. Having beard so
much its favour of the system of spies, he had looked fato
some modern writers, to ascertain whether they were either
defended or approved • and he had not found any advocate
for them, except that could be said to be a justification of
them where Idachitivel said, that " governments employed
brutes as well as men." hloolesquieu said, that " even in a
monarchy spies are not to be employed ;" and he gave the
reason---" fur the infamy of the person denoieth the infamy
of the thing," Hiving said thus much, he would observe,
that the Hon. Member who had asserted that the system of
spies was necessary to the support of a good government,
should have substituted the word " bad" tot the word "good"
and then his assertion would be nearer the fact, for be (Mr.
Hobhouse conceived, that no system of government could he
considered a good out which required spies to support it.—
Now considering this, be thought it was a reason why the
Huse should consent to the motion, to skew to the coun-
try they bad the interest of the people at bean, and that
they would not consent to the rapport of a system which tie
good goverument could require. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BUTTERWORTH had heard so muck of the horrid
details of the plot from this man. that he was absolutely shocked
at the motion of the worthy Alderman. (Chan from the Mi-
nisterial benefice) He could not conceive what motive induced
the worthy alderman to bring dila 'notion forward, except it was
that which had induced him to question the unfortunate This-
tlewood in his last moments. (Loud and continued cheers from
the Ministerial benches.) That conduct of the worthy Alder-
man be looked upon as most unjustifiable. and betrayed a want
of feeling which be hardly thought any man could evince. The
motion, he conceived. was calculated to produce a very bad effect
in the country. and therefore be should oppose it.
Mr. HUMS expressed himself sue, risa that the Von. Mem-
ber who had last spoken could impute such improper motives to
the Hon Alderman who had introduced this question. The
conduct of that Worthy Alderman was as upright and proper as
that of the Hoa. Member himself. or any other Member ir. that
House- The Hon. Alderman had acted in situations what that
conduct was tried—in a situation which he (Mr. Butterworth)
had not been in. and he was always found humanely attentive to
all its duties. Was it. to be called a aims in him to endeavour
to come at truth ? (Hear. hear.) The Hon. Alderman bad
shown that Edwards. accompanied. by his brother, had brought
an individual to a particular spot, in order that at a convenient
time they might pounce upon him, and receive the money to
which his conviction would entitle them. Was a motion for in-
Autry into such a circumstance a fit object for the ridicule of the
Hon. Gentlemen ? He would say that the object was laudable.
and .be would ask whether Edwards was not now about to with-
draw, in order to enjoy the mow which he had gained by his
wicked practices ? And. no wn plots of the same kind
were forthcoming, for in his use be believed that Mine •
ten had been acquainted with the conspincy of Thin/tweed and
his associates for a considerable time before it was =premed by
their arrest. All that was wished by' the present modal was, net
to criminate, but to inquire (as had how frequently done by Par-
Bement on other occastons) whether there were any grounds for
instituting criminal p
Mr WYNN said, be knew nothing on the subject except
from hearsay t but, from what was generally stated, he looked
on this Edwards' as a person who had been employed to give
intelligence to the Government. and who, in return, had gut a
promise of security, and this pledge the House would out surely
wish to ha broken.

Mr. DENMAN could sae nothing so new in the present mo-
tion. After the occurrence of the disturbances in the North, it
had been proposed that Committees should be appointed to in-
quire into the transactions ; and though those motions had been
refused, they had never been treated as not consonant to the
feelings, or not consistent with the regulations, of the Howe.
Yet now, when it was stated that they wished to inquire into the
character of Edwards, the Hon. Member for Corte-castle (Mr.
Bankes) came forward. and overwhelmed with ridicule the Hon.
Alderman who made the motion, and the gallant General wbo
seconded it. As to spies, he would admit that, in some cases,
the use of them was, no doubt. justifiable. (Hear.) But the
question here was, who had employed Edwards. and who had
given him the money which he received long before the plot was
matured? Was the object in this case the discovery, or the
manufacture of crime ? For his own part, he had strung doubts
respecting the conduct of Government. This was not the first
time that they had employed such an agent as Edwards. On
the former trial of Thistlewood, along with Watson and others,
it appeared that Castles, who was an accomplice at first, had
afterwards become a spy, and bad been most active in manufac-
turing the clinics which lie disclosed; and he doubted not that
the persons who were executed at Derby had been led to the
scaffold by Oliver. who was employed by the Government.—
(Hear, hear.) On the grounds which he had now stated, with a
strong feeling against Use practice of employing spies, and with
sonic professional experience, which convinced him that of late
years this system had been carried by Ministers to a very impro-
per length, he should vote for the present motion. if die worthy
Alderman should press a division.
The ATIOHNEY.GENENAL of course opposed the me'
don.
Sir F. BUUDETT supported it at great length, and hoped
that the public mind would be satisfied by such on inquiry. as
that proposed. If iv his Majesty's Ministers did sta clear n: all
connexion with that odious creeture Edwards, in God's name let
I them shew to the world that they did stand &or. lit the mean
dale he should support the grounds of the inrp:ir.
Mr. CANNING then ruse. He began by stating that his
imention had been ant to have interfered in the prestilt
; but he was neither satisfied with die &at:: pis which this
question had been left by die speeches which they had already
heard from either side of the house, or by that tithe Hon.
But. who had just now spoken. The Hight linn. Gentleman
opposed the motion iu a very long speech, IA which he %misc.

bout pollicemniur, dent!
1 lulus *absent. Such
and excellent conisil
lie bad never been ac.
(Hear, hear.) In cc
pressed, that be saw I
the present motion.
Mr. HOHHOUSE
in offering a few oh'
claim the usual kind'
—(Hear);--and pet
snore than Ihat usual
from himself', nor so!
themselves, the pedal
stood in the House.
Jack their indulgen
:coped, for ii might
in him to rise for the
of a gentleman of the
with the House, and 1
ber who bad just sal ,
to contradict an upil
that there was no p
termed so extracts die
the hon. Alderman. 1
on thin question di&
the lion. Member; il
difference hem een r
tthe question a as who
*object as a British I'
The hon. NI t tuber bat
the country ought sic
cause Parliament hi
boa. Member meals