The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS_(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
St five o'clock.

PETITIONS.
Lord SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from
Bath, signed by 1,543 persons, praying the intervention
of England in support of the restoration of Poland.
TICKETS OF LEAVE.
Lord ST. LEONARDS wished to inquire whether her
Majesty's Government have adopted any new scheme
for granting tickets of leave to convicts. The noble lord
called the attention of their lordships to the question in-
volved. When it was determined to abolish transportation
as a general punishment, the question to be solved was,
what was to be the substitute for transporation ? It was
proposed in respect to convicts sentenced to seven or ten
years to introduce a system of penal servitude. Power
was, therefore, given to the magistrates, whenever they
thought proper, to grant licences to those sentenced to
transportation in the shape of tickets of leave, by which
the convict was permitted to go to certain districts in-
dicated in these licences, such districts to be limited to
the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands. The
noble lord then entered into a statement to show that
the system was fraught with the utmost danger. The
noble lord said he had already stated in this house the
cruelty exercised towards those persons who had re-
ceived tickets of leave, by following up those per-
sons by policemen in plain clothes ; and there-
fore it was a mockery to say that that un-
fortunate individual had received any benefit from the
system as at present pursued. The noble lord then re-
ferred to the statistics of crime, and contended that the
results had been anything but favourable. After having
adduced several cases in which the most lamentable re-
sults followed the discharge of those persons, he sub-
mitted that there had not been sufficient care taken in
granting tickets of leave.
Earl GRANVILLE said the Government regretted
as much as the noble lord the working of the ticket-of-
leave system. With regardto whether the Government
had any new scheme, he regretted that 'he could not give
an answer that would be satisfactory to the Able and
learned lord. He had brought down a report,
with the intention of reading some portions of it
to their lordships ; but he thought it would oc-
cupy too much time if he were now to do so.
Some of the statements made by the noble lord, he must
say, were exaggerated, and, with respect to the watching
of persons by the police after they had received tickets
of leave, he begged to inform the noble and learned
lord that only one case had been reported to the
Home Office, and he did not think that he
would wish the Government to act upon this one single
sass. Ile begged to inform the noble and learned lord
that Sir Gs Grey intended to collect materials with re-
spect to this question, and, when he had done so, they
would be laid before their lordships.
Earl GREY said if this country wore obliged to yield
to the colonies everything they demanded, the sooner it
gave them up the better. The colonists could not com-
plain of injustice, as they wont originally to a penal colony,
for the sake of the advantage that convict labour afforded
them. He preferred transportation to the present mode
of penal servitude, and he thought that Western Australia
could take all the convicts this country would be likely to
send.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that no member of
their lordships' house concurred more than he did in tho
necessity that existed for transportation. The experience
acquired during many years' administration of criminal law
had convinced him that transportation answered all the
ends of punishment more than anything else • fort it con-
tained the two essential ingredients of punishment—the
maximum of correction and the minimum of suffering.
But, unfortunately, however advantageous it might have
been to this country, it was the opinion of the last two Go-
vernments, and also of their lordships, that the time had
come when transportation must be, be would not say abo-
lished, for it had not been abolished, but to a great extent
cut down and modified. He believed that about 1,000 con-
victs were the most that could now be annually sent out of
the country. The noble earl who last addressed their lord-
ships considered that the necessity for the modification of
transportation was too hastily assumed, and that the feeling
in the colonies was brought about by unjustifiable language
held by certain individuals at home, who sought for some-
thing they did not desire. He (the Lord Chancellor) con-
fessed that, to a great extent, he was inclined to agree in
that view of the case i but, from whatever cause it had
arisen, the feeling was too great to be resisted. It was
felt to be impossible to continue to send out convicts in the
face of the remonstrances that were made on the subject.
The noble earl said our colonies were not worth keeping if
we were to yield everything they demanded; but the ques-
tion was this—when there came repeated remonstrances
against our loading those rising communities with the off-
scouring of our criminal population, was that a complaint
it would have been just and safe to resist? It was neces-
sary that an experiment should be made. When it was said
that an experiment must be made, he thought it of necessity
followed that a bill similar to that which their lordships
had passed should be brought in. If convicts could not be
sent abroad, they must be imprisoned at home. What he
proposed, and what their lordships adopted, was this, that
whereas there had been a very well-known system of substi-
tuting terms of imprisonment at Milbank for certain terms
of transportation, that which had been done by the Exe-
cutive should thenceforward be done by the Legislature.
The terms, which were said to be short, were the exact
terms that had been in use. The man who was sentenced
to transportation for seven years was by the 'universal
system imprisoned for four years ; for ten years, seven
were substituted, and so on. As to the question how far
the Government had acted wisely in carrying out the en-
actment of the Legislature, it had been said, over and over
again, that the whole dealing with this subject was neces-
sarily an experiment; and, looking to the report of Col.
Jebb, he thought it would be impossible to deny that the
system was working well. There might be individual
cases of hardship, but the general result was, that persons
undergoing first imprisonment, and then penal labour, and
who then get out on tickets-of-leave—the result was, that
a great proportion of them turned out comparatively ho-
nest and useful members of society. It was a plausible
statement that an effectual system of registration and con-
trol would afford greater safety; but any such system of
registration was likely to be deceptive. However, it was
proper to make such an attempt, and such an attempt will
be made. The system of compelling seen to report them-
selves regularly might also be tried, but he must say ho
law great difficulties in that system. There would be
great difficulty in forcing a man who had got into work,
perhaps, to resort to the county town, or to some central
office, there to report himself. (Hear, hear.) The man
would have to get leave from his master, and it would be
a perpetual renewal of his shame. He was of opinion
that more evil than good would result from such an ar-
rangement. It might be necessary to make an experiment
of the kind, but it was one he should look to with appre-
hension.
Lord ST. LEONARDS was understood to then move
for certain returns of the numbers, dm., of men who had
been liberated. on tickets of leave.
CRIMINAL LUNATICS.

Lord ST. LEONARDS said he should not trouble their
lordships long on the subject of the inquiry of which he had
given notice, with reference to criminal lunatics. In re-
gard
to the administration of the effects of lunatics a more
perfect system than the English was not anywhere to be
found. The laws on that subject which their lordships
had made and passed, and put into operation, left very
little to desire. But there was one most important part of
the system which had been left. unprovided for—that was
the subject to which lie now called their attentiqii ; and
he wished to inquire whether her Majesty's Government
had any intention to erect asylums for criminal lunatics?
Earl GRANVILLE was sorry to saythat a great evil ex-
isted in regard to criminal lunatics, and it was most desir-
able that proper accommodation should be provided ferithem.
He was happy to state, although he would not pledge the
Government to carry the proposal into inareediato effect,
thatit was in contemplation to erect an asylum for criminal
lunatics. It was entirely a question of time, and a matter
for the consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
and the House of Commons.
Lord ST. LEONARDS expressed his gratifieation at the
statement made by the noble earl.
The Exchequer Bills (17,183,0001.) Bill was read the
second time.
THE BUSINESS OF THE COLONIAL OFFICE.
The Earl of DERBY then rose to put a question to the
Government "respecting the arrangements to be made for
the efficient discharge of the duties of, the colonial depart-
ment, in the event 0f.., th*. prolong e 4 absence of the
Secretary of State for the Colonies." bile said -In bring-
ing forward the question of which I have given notice,
I would be very sorry to cause embarrasiment in the
Ministerial arrangements; but the subject is one of the
greatest.importance, and the neglect of it must cause so
much public inconvenience, increasing day by day, that I
am constrained to oall the attention of your lordships and
of the Government to it. I need not remind you of the
rather unusual circumstances under which Lord John
Russell accepted the office of Secretary of State for
the Colonies. That noble lord was not a member of the
Government when it was originally formed, but he had ac-
cepted a most important mission, and had left this country
upon it at the time when the resignation of several members
of the Government rendered various new appointments ne-
cessary. He was already on the Continent, when, by tele-
graph, application was made to him by the noble viscount at
the head of the Government whether he would be willing to
take the of Secretary of State for the Colonies, and, not
by return of post, but by a quicker method still—by return
laph—it is understood that the noble lord intimated
that readiness to accept the duties and responsibilities
of 'at important office. lam not about to complain of the
noble lord for—lta •
ham, to perform having accepted that office—not returning
course would he. eizedeuties; on the contrary, I think such a
lam satisfied it was n injurious to the public interests, and
proceedto tolTienna.cliaolte roper and wise for the noble lord
mission with which he reform the duties of the important
beenll intrusted. (Hear.) But
then the question whether
Secretary of State for the Coblacc"tance of the office of
Colonies was or was not justifiable
must depend altogether upon reasonable anticipation on
the part of the noble lord himself
the noble viscount at
the head of the Government as to the
duration
of the noble lord's absenc3 on that teissron°. probable
that,
'technically and
.forinally, every Secretary of
other State can
perform the duties and functions of every er Secretary
of State. It is a case of trig junta in uno; but, although
and formally—although for a certain
that is so technically
limited time, during the Parliamentary recess for intance,
the business of one Secretary of State may be temporarily
administered by another—it is quite obvious, looking to
the importance and weight of the business belonging to
each of those departments, that anything like a perma-
nent arrangement of that kind must be a very great incon-
venience and injury to the public service. So much is that
tho case that when the present war commenced it was
found necessary to divide the Secretaryship of the Colonies
into two, and to withdraw from it that which must fully oc-
cupy the attention of one Minister at a time like the pre-
sent, namely,the business of the War Department. I believe,
moreover, that there is no Minister whose presence in this
country is more necessary, and whose business can less be
taken up by any of his colleagues, than the Secretary of
State for the Colonies. The reason is this—because there is
no Minister whose duties are so much apert and separate
from the business of his colleagues ; none
diridual responsibility is so great; none - • -
which the actual knowledge of the business of the office _
so much confined to the Minister himself. Ido not go so
far as to concur in the axiom wliich I recollect was laid
down by a right hon. and learned gentleman who for many
years performed with great ability the duties of Under-Se-
cretary of State for theColonies—namely,the Cabinets were
made for the colonies ; but, having had some experience of
the duties 9f that °floe, I could appeal to mere than one