The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TIUDAY EVENING., MARCH 16, 1155.

been rather
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,res have been
have further

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ISING PRICES•

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225
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69
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201 1
~ 701

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~ 69 Si

BEE 0' CLOCII.
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•
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1

nienee °filo existing state of thinge. ,There were 44,000
embodied, and 130,d00 to raise. He fsitincl'that
the country was paying for the charge of the officers for
the 130,000, while the country was only receiving the
services of the number of miltia embodied. The militia
was costing the country an enormous sum, and, in addi-
tion, interfering with recruiting for the regular army.
Inconveniences of every description were experienced.
Labour was interfered with, and country gentlemen
would refuse to come in or to allow their sons to officer
regiments. The departure of Government from the ori-
ginal plan was bad, and it pursued the result would be
to make the militia more expensive than the regular
army, without being as available, and in addition to in
terfere seriously with the enlistment cf the regular army-
His idea was that the two forces ought to be kept en-
tirely distinct, right or wrong—that was a clear and an
iutel igible policy—that policy had been departed from,
and no other had been adopted. The militia was now
neither one thing nor the other. It was not the militia
of 1852, nor was it formed on any in'elligible principle.
He trusted that the whole subject would soon have the

On the motion that this bill be now read a third time,
Earl GREY rose. to inquire on what principles first
commissions in the army were granted. The noble earl
said that be would be one of the last to wholly abolish
the practice of granting commissions by purchase ; but,
on the other hand, he was also certain that such a sys-
tem could not be maintained unless that in the public
mind there was perfect confidence that it would be im-
partially and fairly carried out.
Lord PANMURE said he found it had been the prac-
tice to grant commissions without purchase to those
cadets who bad distinguished themselves at the
Military College at Sandhurst. It had also been the
practice to grant commissions to the Sons of those officers
in her Majesty's service who had distinguished them-
selves, and who, he thought, their lordships would con-
sider had a right to those first commissions without
purchase ; and, in the third place, he was informed
by the Commander-in-chief that the next class of persons
whose claims to commissions were recognised were the
seni of poor deserving clergymen. When the claims of
all these classes were exhausted, commissions were given
to those gentlemen whose names had been placed on the
list of applicants for commissions, and many of those
commissions had been recently distributed amongst
the last class in order to meet the demand of the army.
The age to qualify for those commissions was now ex-
tended to 32 years. He had failed to find out any ground
for the supposition that those commissions had ever
been given away without due consideration.
After a few words from Earl GREY,
Viscount HARDINGE said the noble earl must be
aware that in case of commisssions granted without
purchase, consideration had always been given to the
propriety of reducing the half-pay list, and there was an
injunction upon the Commander-in-Chief that a certain
proportion of money received for commissions was
handed over to the Secretary of War, to be applied to
the reduction of the half-pay list.
After some observations from the Earl of ELLEN-
BOROUGH,
The bill was read a third time and passed.
TEA DUTIES DECLINE SUSPENSION BILL.
The bill was read a second time and passed.
SECRETARIES OF STATE BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of GRAN VILLE this bill
was read a third time and passed.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.
On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM this bill was
read .a second time.
THE MILITIA.
Earl MALMESBURY rose to put a question to her
Majesty's Government respecting the militia, as to fur-
lough to be given to married men ; and also as to the
maintenance of their wives and families. The
noble earl in asking this question took occasion to
enter at great length into the hardships inflicted upon
the men who had entered the militia in failing to get
their free discharges, and also to the dissatisfaction ex-
pressed by those men whO had entered only for a short
period at finding that the militia was to be permanently
embodied. He wished, therefore, to know whether such
an order had been or would be given, to what extent it
would be carried out, and whether the Government in-
tended to provide any fund for the maintenance of the
wives and children of militiamen who had been embodied
in the manner he had pointed out ? To make the cost
of such maintenance a charge on the locality would
operatd as a check to all recruiting for the force.
Lord PANMURE admitted having stated to the noble
earl that a question for information with respect to any
one county would be better addressed to the War Office.
If, however, the question were of a general kind and
rested on public grounds, perhaps the better way was to
take the course the noble earl had done. With refer-
ence to the question itself, he thought the noble earl
could not be in possession of a circular, issued from the
War Office in November, 1854, addressed to the com-
manding officer of each militia regiment. He was sorry
that an impression existed that a breach of faith had
been committed towards those men who had engaged. to
serve in the militia, for he was quite sure no such breach
of faith was intended. It was true that under the act of
1852 the men were engaged only for training and exercise;
but he could not admit that under the act of 1854 they
were forced to continue their services. In the circular
issued to each commanding officer, he was instructed to
call only for those men who had no claim for exemption
on the ground of the original enlistment, and to report
to the War Office those men he considered not compe-
tent to serve. With respect to the embodied men, the
custom was if their wives and families became a burden
on the parish from the absence of the husband to allow
such men to return to their homes: If any blame ex-
isted in the matter, it must rest, not with the War
Office, but with the colonels of militia.
Lord BATEMAN said that he had no knowledge of
the circular :n question. He did not complain of the
authorities of the Home Office, for the noble lord the
present Premier, when Home Secretary, frequently
granted permission to the married men to return home.
He had written to the colonel of the Herefordshire Mi-
litia on the subject, and was informed by that gentleman
that it would be exceedingly inconvenient to carry out
the instructions given by the Home Office as to the dis-
charge of those men. A communication was then sent
to the War Office, and, in reply, the colonel was directed
to transmit the names of the men whom he could recom-
mend for discharge on payment of the enrolment money.
According to a return made by the Wer Office 28 mar-
ried men had been released since the receipt of that
letter, and 42 were at that moment in the regiment who
hae not yet been released. That colonel had informed
him that he bad made a point of granting discharges
only to those married men who could prove themselves
to be the fathers of two children legally born. (A. laugh.)
If out of a regiment of 500 men 100 were discharged be-
cause they were married great difficulty would be found
in replacing them. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PANMURE (in answer to the noble lord) said
he could furnish him with a return of the names of the
men discharged, but not of the names of those who had
applied fora discharge.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said as far as lie
could understand the question, there appeared to be two
classes of militiamen—one enrolled before the act of
1854 and the other after. The first were to be drilled
for 21 days, or by an order in council for 56 days, and
were not liable to be permanently embodied ; but those
enlisted afterwards were liable to be permanently em-
bodied for 5 years. Now, he thought it would be con-
ceded that no person who enlisted before the 12th of
May, 1854, ought to be compelled against his will to
serve for the period named ; and he thought Government
would act with impropriety if they did not insist upon HOUSE OAFS OMMONS--YESTERDAY.
this class of militiamen serving for the whole period to L OF SUCCESSION.
which they might be made liable when they enlisted. „
air. L. KING moved for leave to introduce a bill for
He did riot see why the Government should not issue
the better settling of the real estates of intestates. The
an order in council that the men who enlisted before the
measure which he proposed to provide was that where a
12th of May should be called on to serve for 56 days. If
p
this course were adopted there would be, among other
person diedpossessed of landed property, the law should
make for him a just will precisely in the same way as it
advantages, a chance of many volunteering ieto the
would make it if
Thehe died posse.ssed n
of p.
ed personal instead of
hoe. gentiema cit many cases to
army and remaining there. He hoped, therefore, that
real property
nothing would induce the Government to depart from
show the injustice of the existing law, and declared that
the strict rule of law, which gave power to compel he had no intention to assimilate the law with
those who enlisted before the 12th of May to serve for rightparties will
66 or to interfere with the of to
of
that
66 days. He would also call upon the Government to
make the most earnest exertions for the purpose of
raising the militia to the full extent of the establish- Mr. MASSEY seconded the motion, which disci' their real property in any manner that they might desire.
merit. At present there were 44,000 embodied, where- simply proposed to extend to land the statute of tri-
as power was given to raise 136.000 ; so that at this bution, which for more than a century and a half
moment the militia force was 92,000 below its comple. had successfully regulated the successions in the cases
recut. t,Hear, hear.) At the same time a vote in the of personal . and leasehold property. This law of
army estimates had been taken for 60,000 additional succession applied to at least one half of the real
men to the army. Allowance, however, must-be made property of the kingdom,
for casualties. So that there were required not fewer he advocated its extension to the other half, believing
and as a practical man
182,000 men, or, with the addition of at least 6,000 or as he did that such a change would in no respect be ad-
-7,000 artillery, nearly 200,000 men to complete the .verse to the existence of arietocraoy in this country.
force. He hoped the Government would look to the
Amid general calls for a division,
condition of the country in this respect, and take prompt Tho SOLICITOR GENERAL rose.—He said there
were some subjects on which it behoved the house to pro-
measure? to supply the deficiency. Bounce no hesitating opinion. Anti this somewhat stale
Earl GREY was extremely glad the subject had been
subject of primogeniture was one of them. (Hear, hear.).
brought before the house by the noble earl (Moires He hoped the house would not even allow to be read a first
bury), as it was one of very great importance, and the
timehav a bill which had for its object, or at all events would
existing state of things was unfortunate, as it interfered effect, the alteration of one of the most impor-
with the enlistment of the regular army. He had taut of time established institutions of the country. (Hear,
heard with great regret the noble marquis opposite, Ihear.) Ho drew a distinction between measures for the
who, he believed, was a colonel of a militia regiment amendment of the law, and measures to destroy or shake
and a lord lieutenant, say that he thought it was no the institutions of the country. (Hear, hear.) To measures
breach of faith to call upon men who had enlisted for the amendment of the law the house would always lend
for ono period, under an act of Parliament which a ready ear, but as to measures which would remove land-
distinctly provided they should not be permanently marks and root up the foundation-stones of the constitution
embodied, to serve beyond the time for which he hoped they would always say with their ancestors of old,
Notionus Anglice legennutare. (Hear.) The house had,
they had enlisted. In his opinion this was a flagrant
indeed, upon the present measure already more than once
breach of faith, and he was afraid that the fault coteicela.raetolltbsoviinbiot; lastb session by a division of three to
lay either with the Government or the colonels of mili-
oasion, except la f.epaee
tlitieoeon
of
frgteee in
rits
infaevotusr
boenfotrhois oc-tia ; but certainly he believed that many men who bad
ad-
enlisted before May, 1852, were not aware that they ducod. Appeals had been made to thea arguments
of the house
were entitled to demand leave of absence or discharge, has the public upon certain isolated instances of supposed
when they had fulfilled their time of service, which at dships, as, for example, myosin which personspurchased
get, otfb thela personalod itself
descendingestate distributable
heirs. am oßutng
the most was 58 days. He hoped this discussion would land and died without paying the purchase money, which
make it generally known that every such man who en-
twthbaeeirbilfanimd
member
trbwehobsats.tendottens:easAtos seemed ignorant
listed before the 12th of May, whether married or not,
c: with children or not, or earning better wages than in of the fa.et that they with
nwdt
oh thatre ic;
net,
upon
primogeniture, but arose out of 1. toie of l
the militia, had a right, which no colonel of militia or
every contract whether for the purchase of land
personal property was first liable in the hands
Government could set aside, to demand leave of absence i
of tnhe'et e
aster the time had expired for which he had stipulated 1
to serve. He agreed with the noble marquis that when miters or administrators of the contract before the rxeeal-
this was generally known, one inconvenience would property could be touched. That might or might not be's
most likely ensue—namely, that half of the militiamen state of the law fit to continue; bait would not be altered
would walk off ; and that the further inconvenience
I tent and self-destructive arguments were urged in favour
by removing the law of primogeniture. The most inconsis-
-lof the heetasnre.. Ono hon. member stated that the subject
would be experienced of not being able to fill up their
places, for no one in his senses would enlist in the mi-
litia and perform any services if without any chalice of landedw as oi
property little
un
rtritiaenocletrilethe masses, as most of the
Ire ntort cal.led for
see: were leasehold. If so,
then it was adiuitted that thisceiVaas
pension. He was quite sure that the risk of fighting I
was ne discouragement to men to culi,t, for he believed by the interests of the community, but only affecting the
that it was the hope of fighting thet pro ei the strongest a7igtocracy. (Hear.) On the other hand anothera
inducemeat to enlist. What man would serve five years bar said that the property of the
loranarscracy couldu.nmotollone-
continuously when he could get greater tele autag,es in the affected, es it was mostly fee eimp d held in tail under
regular army ? He thought that a'l this showed the ex- t settlements. But the hon. member forgot that if the law of
primogeniture was done away with, under which all settle-
treine impoliay of &parting him the original scheme o!
coin_ :fleas welt; drawn in favour of the first and other sous" in
militia. It wee intended to be a reserved farce,
(th,erertiVtit rested entirely eintirely on the principle of
Oil elate, the whole system of settlements would be de-
posed of men who, in consequence of their avocations, i
could not permaneatly enlist, and not when enrolled to !t.,tt'''Yed-
oef ltresegornenanstetica)trteoesoewfrett rho law
ftrehscon t ofe present state
it formed
be permanently einboditel. If you permanently ern- ' time foundation. (Hear, :hear.)vo
bodied the militia, you exeinde all this elas;4 of recruits. \ was aseocnaed with the upholding
ar d you will find that recruiting fix time militia will , eeeenes of time kingdom. So intimately
eneterially interfere with
severs.recruitin fur the regular army, I with the manatee:thee of an ancient monarchy like ourest• 'lre
He had seen letters from l officers who told lif this nicesure wore to pass, estates would be inderinitaenl
him the system had seriously interfered with recruit- I divided to the infinite disadvantage and detriment of theY
ing for the regular army. They had been told by I country, not only agriculturally, but politically, socially,
the noble earl that 60,000 men were still wanted ! economically, and morally. (Hear.) A great deal was said on
this subject about " natural justice, and it was said to be
for the army, and a larger number for the militia. i
sue
and ! contrary to natural justice that the elder son should -
nis was a very serieas state of things, ,eatl to all the freehold estates of. his ancestor. But, in
one which Government ought to look after 'without ' fact, there was a fallacy in supposing that considerations of
delay. His advise to Government was to return , natural justice. entered at all into the question ; for the in-
to the original principle of the militia, and not to keep etitution of property, especially as regarded reality, was a
the men permanently embodied. Look . '
at the inconve- creature of positive law, and was moulded and regulated

serious consideration of Government.
The Earl of MA LMESBURY, in reply, was not sorry
the subject had been brought forward. He trusted the
noble lord would not say that it was the intention of
Government to make the men who enlisted under
the ant of 1552 liable to the provisions of the bill of la-t
year. He hoped the noble lord would state that he
was really to adopt the principle so well laid down by
the noble earl (Ellenborough), and would allow those
men to have their discharge who bad served the 21 days,
or 56 days, as originally stipulated. With respect to
the question of married men with children, that was a
question of policy, and he to 1 brought it before their
lordships in the hope that it would receive considera-
tion. The noble earl had not received an answer as to
whether Gov: rnment intended to maintain the wives
and families from any other fund than the parish rates.
The e'reular issued by the Horne Office relative to the
exercise of the power of granting discharges to married
men by colonels of regiments was obscure, and he beg-
ged to ask for a further explanation of its meaning from

Government.
Lord PANMURE said that the debate bad taken a
wider range than was anticipated. Grave questions had
been raised by the noble earl (Ellenborough) and his
noble friend (Earl Grey), which would be felt through-
out the country, and would be clamed by all to be of
great importance. It had been said that after the notice
relative to the right of militiamen to their discharge that
many militiamen would take advantage of the circum-
stance, to the great inconvenience of the public service.
Neither for that nor for this discussion could he hold
himself responsible. His endeavours would be, as an
administrator of the War Department, to avail himself
cf the services of as many men as the exigencies of the
country required. With reference to the circular re-
ferred to by the noble earl, in his opinion it was per-
fectly
clear. That circular was addressed to the orderlies
and the clerks of lieutenantcies, and no doubt that cir-
cular would be found in the hands of the sergeants of
militia. The last paragraph stated (as we understood)
that if any reason should exist why, in the opinion of the
proper officer, a man should be allowed to be free on re-
payment of the enlistment fee, or without repayment on
the recommendation of that officer, the man should be
discharged and relieved from service. In the case of mar-
ried men who had enlisted for five years, and who had
thrown their families on the parish, and who were
liable to contribute to their support from their pay,
it was intended to give their discharge, but not on
furlough, as it was considered far better not to have
men in the militia so burdened as to make militia
duties impossible. It was not the intention of her
Majesty's Government to take any step with regard
to the wives and families of the married men,
further than to discharge the men from the burden of
serving. If the colonels did not recommend the men to
be discharged, then the responsibility rested with the
colonels. If they did recommend men to be discharged,
the discharges were granted in all cases. He trusted
that one effect of this debate—which he considered to be
advantageous—would be to let colonels of militia know
the power they had in this respect ; but another effect of
the debate he could not approve of, as, if the recom-
mendation thrown out were adopted, they would reduce
the militia 'sulks, and impair the efficiency of that body.
The Earl of DERBY wished the noble lord to state
distinctly whether the power of discharge rested exclu-
sively and solely on the responsibility of the colonels ;
for however unpleasant and awkward it might be to raise
the question at this, or indeed at any moment, still the
amount of inconvenience was not to be compared with
the consequences of leaving an impression on the country
that an act of Parliament had been tampered with by
which men were to be deprived of their rights. (Hear.)
No inconvenience that might arise from raising this
question could be equal to the permanent injury that
would take place if engagements entered into with any
class of her Majesty's subjects were not rigidly and ho-
nestly carried out. And a great mistake was made by
not fulfilling to the letter and the spirit the declaration
that was made at the time of the introduction of the act
of 1854,.that, as the time and terms of the service were
to be changed, individual option would be given to every
single man who enlisted before May, 1814, to say whether
lie would or would not enter into a new engagement.
If every one had been re-attested under the act of 1854,
these perplexing questions would not have arisen, and
we should have had men coining forwarl to enlist vo-
luntarily. Had this been the case you would have bad
a wiitia embodied on a well-underetood plan of
wagree-
' ent, and. whether the man Was married or single,
he would have had no cause to complain, or right
to withdraw from his engagement. But it was of the
last imprn lance that men should know the rights they
hal practically, and he would be no party to conceal
those rights from the'
servm. He said that every man who
\enlisted for 21 daysice, or by an order in council
for 56 days' service, should not be compelled to serve
1 for a longer period or under different arrangements, or
that the term of his service should depend on the will
or the caprice of his colonel.
Lord PANMURE would be the last man t) adopt or
advocate a course of policy calculated to keep men in
ignorance of their rights or engagements. He believed
every militiainan who enlisted in 1852.3 knew when his
term of service expired. If the original terms were in-
tended to be varied, it must be done by enactment, as
in the case-of volunteering to go abroad. With respect
to the power of discharge, if the colonel withheld the.
recommendation for a means discharge, be must take
the responsibility of the act on himself. Whenever the
reconunendation was given it would he complied with.
Lord GREY said—Let the amen know their rights.
He wished to have an express assurance from Govern-
ment that, though the act of 1854 gave them power to
alter the original agreement, the power would not be
exercised.
The subject then dropped, and their lordships ad-
journed.

according. to the other institutions of the country, imams i which required consideration, and, when the proper leeeen
larly with 1414 ion to-its politiebe AstithttieftS. But wee, eaerived, be.. would submit it to the bowie ...t. ~
there no Rectal advantages resulting freen this institution I - Mr:-.WILIKIWISON did ricrithiuk that the Chancellor of
which made its retention desirable? The effect of property the Exchequer had answered the arguments of Mr. Wil-
going to the eldest son was, that there was not a profession, hams. .
calling, or occupation in the country which did not swarm Mr. PEA.COCKE said it was the policy of our free coin-
with industrious, intelligent, and earnest younger sons, mercial codethat personal property should change hands as
whose industry was stimulated, and whose intellect was freely as possible, whilst the policy of our territorial con-
excited, by the knowledge that they roust depend on their stitution was, that the land of this country should change
own exertions. if the whole constitution of society had hands as seldom as possible—should rest in the possession
been formed in reference to this institution, he could see of certain families, and be identified with certain names.
no reason for considering even the propriety of uprooting The late Chancellor of the Exchequer showed, in his fintax
foundations and and altering principles and rules by which the cial statement of 1852, that whilst real property paid a
whole community had had their views and expectations of 9d, in the pound, personal property paid a tax of
7d. in
regulated. The observations he had now thrown out wore, 31. The landed interest had submitted to free trade, but
desultory, for he had not considered them before entering they wotild not quietly submit to the exactions proposed
the huuse ; but ho should not be discharging his duty if he - by the hon. member for Lambeth. (Cheers.) This was not
did not express his °Pinion that the present motion had thotime, when we were engaged in a great war, to open
been unaccompanied by any new argument, and that as the question of agricultural burthens ; but when peace
it was opposed to the majority of those best informed in came, it would be the duty of the Legislature to review
and nut of the House of Commons, it ought not to be en- the whole of the financial system of the country, and to do
tertained. its utmost to relieve the land from that inequality of bur-
Mr. EWAR'P denied that the proposal Contained in this theirs to which, as compared with personal property, it was
motion was in any degree calculated to shake our institu- confessedly now subject. (Cheers.)
tions. The bill sought to do by peaceful means that which ' Sir Cl. STRICKLA.ND was not prepared to give a de-
might hereafter be accomplished by popular impulse. cided opinion upon the resolutiou unwed by the hon.
While ho was opposed to the French and Norwegian eye- -:niember for Lambeth, but considering the very candid
manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
terns of compulsory division of property, he was decidedly
in favour of freedom in the distribution of property by promisee to treat that part of it which releted -to ecclesi-
will. Ile should support the motion because ho thought astical corporations. he would advise the hon. member to
it would effect a wise and gradual change iu an institution rest satisfied with that promise, and not to press his reso-
lution to a division.
which required revision. (Divide.)
Mr. WARNER, amidst loud calls for a division, corn- Mr. CROSSLEY denied that the burthens on land were,
plained that the Solicitor-General had failed to specify any in every instance, greater than those on personal property,
one institution which this bill was alleged to be likely to and asserted that, in some cases, the contrary was the fact.
destroy. It might be right that a man should wish to keep Horses that were employed for commercial purposes were
up his name by a family descent of property, but a mere ( subject to taxation, but when used for agricultural par-
imperative dote required of him was that Lis younger chit- poses they were exempt. Again, insurances of corn iner-
dren should not be suffered to want. chit or personal property were subject to taxation, but
Mr. L. KING replied, expressing his astonishment that insurances of agricultural produce were free from duty.
the Soliciter-General, who stated Lis desire for a general He was not in favour of the abolition of probate duty on
amendment of the law, should have opposed the present personal property. He thought that wben a man came
motion. into possession of property, to obtain which he had not
The house then divided, when there appeared— had to lift his little finger, it was a good time for an
For the motion. ............................. .... M officer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to step in and
Against it .................................. . ....... 156 demand something for the support of the State. He thought,
Majority .. .. . ............................. —72 too, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to feel
obliged to the hon. member for Lambeth for having brought
PROBATE DUTY, forward this motion. The Government, most probably,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved, "That, in the opinion of
would have been .grad enough to have supported it, but,
the house, real property and irnpropriate tithes should be fearing that they had not sufficient strength to carry it,
made to pay the same probate duty as is now payable on they had thought it prudent to withhold their support, in
personal property, and that property belonging to corpora- order that their tenure of office might not be cut short.
tions, universities, colleges, bishopries, and deans and (Laughter.)
Mr. MUNTZ thought that the tax was a bad one, and if
chapters, should pay a duty equivalent to the probate'and the hon. gentleman had made a motion for its total aboli-
legacy duties levied on personal property." In submit- ' tion, he should have supported such a proposal.
ting this motion, he ought, in the first place, to, observe Mr. WILLIAMS replied.
that, in the year 1796, Mr. Pitt brought in a bill to sub- • ' The houseer divided—
For
the motion
ject all descriptions of property to legacy duty, but the Against it
all-powerful landed
,aristocracy compelled Parliament to Majority against
divide that bill into two separate measures—one having The motion was consequently lost.
application to real property and the other to personal • FACTORY LABOUR.
Mr. COBBETT, in asking leave to bring in a bill to
property. Mr. Fox opposed this division, but his exer- limit the hours of work of females and young persons in
tions wore unsuccessful. The measure imposing legacy the factories of the United Kingdom to ten in the day, and
duty on personal property soon passed, with little or no to provide the means of more perfectly inspecting the said
opposition ; but the other measure was successfully op- factories, said that his object was to have the bill printed,
laid before members, and circulated through the country,
posed by the landed aristocracy. The question remained
and at some convenient opportunity after the recess dis-
in this state for a period of 57 or 58 years ; but a short time
-cussed on its principles and details in that house. The
ago the right hon. gen tleman the late Chancellor of the factory question was one that had possessed great interest
Exchequer (Mr. Gladstone) applied a partial remedy by not only for a large body of the working people of this
the enactment of it measure imposing on real property one- country but the Legislature itself. For many years efforts
half of the legacy duty imposed on personal property. He were made to reduce the hours of labour of children in
(Mr. W. Williams) was at a lose to conceive why real pro. the first place, then young persons, and lastly all females
porty should be exempt from the sante duty which was levied in factories, to that which he considered was a reason-
on all ether descriptions of property. He hoped that his able extent of labour—namely, ten hours in the day.
motion would meet with the support of the present Chan- In 1847 Parliament acceded to that principle, and a bill '
cellor of the Exchequer. When he (Mr. W. Williams) was passed regulating the hours of labour in factories, and '
brought forward a similar motion some years ago, he was enacting that no female or young person should work more
told that real property was subject to heavy stamp duties than 10 hours a day in any of those establishments. But
on conveyances and mortgages, but this argument could unfortunately there existed a flaw in another act to which
now have no force, for five years ago, at a sacrifice of the act of 1847 had a necessary reference, which gave the
450,0001. a-year, the stamp duties on conveyances and Manufacturers an opportunity of evading the act of 1847,
mortgages wore r educed. If his proposition were adopted and the consequence was that by the adoption of a mode
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, without increasing of working called the shifting system, they kept the people
the amount of the national debt, would have 2,500,000/. occupied not only 10 hours a day, but 12, 14, and in some
additional a-year wherewith to pay the army and cases even 15 hours a day. (Hear.) This system had been
navy, and if he resorted to a system of loans with- acknowledged iu this house to be an evasion of the law,
out endeavouring to raise this sin by a legacy dirty and there could be no doubt whatever that it was. (Hear.)
on real-property he would incur a serious-responsibility. In point of fact the Ten Hours Bill of 1817 was abrogated
He could not understand upon what ground such a by that flaw. Then came the time for Parliament to re-
motion as the present could be opposed. It had been said mosey this wrong; entitle° question arose as to whether thero
by same hon. gentlemen that land was more taxed than should be alO consecutive hours bill or an infringement on
any other species of property; but such an argument had the principle of the act of 1847. The working people be-
been long since disposed of. The industrious classes paid came afraid at this point, and they applied to Lord Ashley
much heavier taxes than the richer classes, on the subject. That noble lord asked the right hon. gen-
An HoN. GENTLEMAN moved that the house be counted. tleman which was the case ; and in 1818 a letter was re-
There were only 32 members present at the moment that ceived from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer stat-
the motion was made, and very little more than that num- iug that it was not the intention of the Government to
bar for air hour previously; but when the bell rang for the propose any bill infringing on the spirit of the Ten Hours
"count," Mr. Murrough rushed iu, as On Tuesday night, Bill of 1847. Upon this the workpeople rested qtiet, and
for the purpose of being reckoned, and some few members thought the principle was secure. On the 3.1 of May, 1850,
afterwards dropping in, the requisite number of 40 was however, the right hon. -baronet the present Home
eked out, and the debate was resumed. Mr. Murrough, Secretary stated his intention to introduce a bill to
and some other members, retired the instant they were extend the term of labour to 10 hours and a half in
counted. the day, and to give the workpeople a limitation from six
Mr: WILLIA.MS felt very much obliged to the" whips" o'clock in the morning to six -o'clock iu the evening as a
on this occasion, and he hoped he should have an oppor- boon. It was, however, no boon, for the working people
tunity of paying them off. He would. not detain the house, had it before; and the •manufacturer would necessarily
but, in conclusion, he must say that no one could oppose take his labour in those hours to avail-himself of the light
this motion who called himself a just man and a Christian. of the day. The right hon. baronet explained the advan-
Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. He thought it tages to the workpeople of half an, hour in the morning,
was high time the distinction made by the law between from half-past , five to six, to themselvee, as well as the
real estate and personal estate should be put an end to. whole of the evening, and the Saturday from two o'clock,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed Tenheiig,l as he said, a half hour more than was given by the
Yours Bill. At present, however, they were worked
his regret that the lion. gentleman should have adopted the
on the Saturdays to three and half-past three, which was
course of stating his views in the form of an ale-street re- more than they worked under the Ten Hours ill. A con-
solution. It was competent for him to have brought for- siderable opposition was raised to the bill of the right hon.
ward any plan for maintaining, or continuing, or exteud- baronet, those who opposed it advocating the principle
iug the probate duty, and it would then have been in the of the Ten Hours Bill. Nevertheless, the bill was passed,
the Ten Hours Act was nullified, and the labour of
power of the house to judge as to the exact nature of the women and children was extended half an hour each day,
proposition before it, but it was extremely difficult, from and half an hour added on Saturday. There were orly
the term selected be- the hoe. eggnetenwn, for the_ house to sixteen petitions in favour of the act, which was not
form any clear jnagment as to the plan he would wish it observed atikost-from the thus (it its passing, and the fac-
totory inspectors—principally Mr. Romei—cornplainA hit-
pursue. The hon. member appeared, in the course of telly of its constant violation, and called for an amended
his speech, in many oases, to have confounded the legacy Itw on the subject. This was in May, 1852—not half a
duty anti the probate duty—he had applied to the pro- year after the passing of the act. There was also a memo-
bate duty arguments which applied exclusively to rial from manufacturers in Yorkshire and Lancashire,
the legacy duty. But the honourable gentleman had omit- complaining of the violation of the act, and culling for a
batter
ted to state the precise nature of the probate duty, and
btiftt mode of inspecting factories to prevent this viola-
en. A deputation of these manufacturers even came to
the distinction betweea real and personal property, upon London and memorialised the Earl of Darby en the sub-
which the present probate duty was founded. The prat- ject. From that time to this there were continuous cons-
tice of proving wills had grown out of the jurisdiction of plaints of the violation of the act. In Octuber, 1852, the
the ecclesiastical courts. From a very ancient period of his- inspectors made a joint report on the violation of the act,
antito 1834,
tory the ecclesiasticel courts had jurisdiction over the per- all also
ef other
whiche
au ed reportsfe t
for
ano theam sameendm effect,entofhedweoxin:ting law,
soualty of deceased parties, whether testate or intestate. and more restrictive powers to prevent the infraction
That jurisdiction, however, by the nature of those courts, of the act. The question next arose as to. what were
was limited to personal property. The pe„f England did the feelings of the workpeople ou the subject of these
not require that wills by which. real property was devised infractions. He (Mr. C) would not confine himself, as
should be proved in the ecclesiastical court, nor had that the right hon. baronet the Home Secretary would,
court any power of deciding upon questions affecting land to the factory inspectors ; he would state facts which
or realty. The consequence of that state of the law was,
. probably the factory inspectors . could net ascertain.
that probate duty was necessarily confined to wills which Last session 1,083 petitions were presented in favour
affected personal property. If they proceeded to extendpro- of the principle of the Ten Hours Bill, all complaining of
bate duty to real property, it would be necessary not only the violation of the existing law. Ho (Mr. C.) had also pre-
to take the course proposed by the honourable member vented a petition from some of the largest manufacturers
for Lambeth, but also to alter the whole of real property of Oldham in the same session, stating that the violations
law which exempted that description of property from were notorious and systematic, and that they could only
the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical court ; and it be met by the bill which he (Mr. C) then had before the
would be further necessary to alter the jurisdiction and house. If that bill had been hostile to the interests of the
powers of the ecclesiastical court, so as to make them ex- manufacturers, such a petition would not be presented.
tend to questions affecting realty. That was the diffi- The whole of the petitions in favour of his bill last session
culty which suet them at the threshold of the subject. If amounted to over 200,000. That was a proof of the fact
the hon. gentleman had, in a committee of ways and of the violation of the law and the necessity for an amend-
means, submitted a distinct plan for the consideration of ment of the present act. There had been two elections
the house, they would have been able to form a judgment since his first bill was introduced, and in the manufaetur-
as to the manner in which he (Mr. Williams) proposed to ing boroughs the pledge put to the candidates was the sup-
overcome that obstacle, and to deal practically with the port of these bills. The hon. member for Blackburn had
difficulties which surrounded this mode of taxation. With been returned on that promise, and he had kept his pro-
regard to the more general view of the question, he (the mire. In Clitheree also, the same question was raised at
Chancellor of the Exchequer) must be permitted to refer the election, and the candidate who promised to support
to the extensive measure affecting the legacy and succes- his bill was returned. These were proofs that his bills
sion duties, which was introduced by his right hon. friend were acceptable to the public in the manufacturing dis-
the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone). tricts, and the bill he now wished to bring in was nearly
In proposing that measure he went most extensively into identical with them in all its provisions. The Ten Hours
the question as to the succession to real and personal pro- Bill was a groat advantage to young people in factories ;
petty, and the whole subject was thoroughly exhausted he (Mr. C.) knew it, and that was the reason he was so
by the debates of the house, and an adjustment of the strenuous on the subject. Before the Ten Hours Act
respective claims of those two classes of property was ar- was passed the condition of the workpeople was as
rived at, which he (tire Chancellor of the Exchequer) was had as it could be. One of the effects of the long hours
not prepared to advise the house now to reconsider. It VaS to unfit the workmen for enlistment in the army.
must be bon in mind, if they came to consider the equity
Sir J. Elley said that the number rejected in the manu-
of the case, that the transfer of real property was subject factoring districts, as compared with those rejected in
to many .charges to which the transfer of personal property the agricultural districts, was something enormous. A
was not subject in an equal degree. No person could deal large body of evidence was taken before the Health of
with laud to any great extent without being constantly Towns Commission to prove that the factory workers were
subject to the payment of stamp and other duties, and for the most part crooked ; and in Rochdale, out of 30 men
although there were certain cases in which personal property offered for the army, only one was tit for service. The
was, upon its being transferred, lialee to taxation, yet they same rule obtained in France. In 1853 Mr. Redgrave, a
were infrequent; and it Wright with perfect truth bo said factory inspector, made an examination iu Prussia, and it
that a great inequality in the practical working of the was found that in 1828 the manufacturing districts could
laws affecting the transfer of real and personal property not supply their contingent. This proved the physical de-
existed in favour of personal property. There were, be- terioration produced by the factory system. He (Mr. C.)
sides, as it had been often stated in that house, many local had stated, on a former occasion, the astounding mortality
charges affecting land from which, it was true, the Crown of children under two years of age in the factory districts,
derived no benefit (as they were not Queen's taxes) but because they were deprived of tire care of the mother. Dr.
whichoneVertheless,. were charges that could not be left Fletcher stated the ago of death in our factory district at
out of consideration in a discussion of this subject. He was, eight years. The ratio of deaths of children under two
therefore, not prepared to accede to the first branch of years of age in factory and in agricultural districts was as
the motion of his hon, friend in the form in which he 63 to 33. At a late meeting of the British Association for
had presented it to the house. He (the Chancellor of the the Advancement of Science, .a Mr. Ashworth made
gauateconrtl himself on refer-
Exchequer)hay-
might, perhaps,enco to the strike which lasted for six winter months—a
ing found so able a coadjutor as his hon. friend the mem- rigorous winter, during which the workpeople on strike
bar for Lambeth, who proposed to pour no less than were stated to have undergone great privation. Mr. Clay,
2,590,000/. into the Treasury ; 'but, notwithstanding the
present state of the public finances, lie could rot accept the however, the chaplain to the Preston gaol, stated that
about 1,000 of the women on strike were mothers, anti that
donation on the terms on which it was offered. His hon. the number of infant deaths was 497 iu the six months,
friend said that he wished to make wills of real property while in the six preceding months the number was 594.
subject to probate, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) 'The inference therefore was, that by the care which these
begged leave to say that he saw nothing in the resolution women were enabled to bestow on their children these 100
which bore any such meaning. The resolution did not lives were saved in six months—months also of privation
propose to alter the law with respect to the probates of and suffering. Was it not, consequently, in the face
wills of real property ; it merely provided to alter the law of these facts, too bad when called upon to redeem these
with respect to probate duty. His hon. friend bad cone- blunders, that Parliament should inflict an additional half
'flouted upon the inconsistency_ of wills for years being hour, at tho least, upon these poor people? He (Mr. C.)
subject to probate duty, and wills for lives being exempted proposed to restore the ten hours ; to give the factory in-
therefrom. That inconsistency was
necessary cense- specters some chance of enabling them to enforce the law
queues of the general law© of the country, which said by placing a restriction on the motive power after a certain
that leases. for years were chattel interests, while leases period. He knew that was the rock on which be would
flat
lives were freehold interests. As long as the split on this matter. But a large number of manufacturers
distinction between realty and personalty, with respect to themselves admitted that that was the only effectual mode
the probate of wills, lasted, the distinction of which his of securing an adherence to a fixed limitation of hours of
lion. friend had complained must continue to exist. The labour. In other portions of the hill there were causes for
same remark applied to the inconsistency of which thehon. cars ing out the suggestions of factory inspectors ; .such,
complained as existing between houses held on
member had for instance, as a clause for increasing the penalties of a
revision
lease and freehold houses. Freehold houses being real pro- violation of the act. The only other important p
party were necessarily exempted from probete duty, which it contained was one which would enable a person
lease lI 1 houses being a chattel interest were ne- to proceed for Penalties under the law before a county
whereas ease o ,
thereto. His bon •
cessarily subject the _ . friend made a remark
,tans action, after having
court judge, in the shape of a qui . y
.0
intention.
as to the scale of the probate duty. On that subject he , given the inspectors three slays' notice of hi
lodtliat
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would only say that, if ; These were the provisions of the bill, runic i hopi
41
~,,
his lion. friend had subinittee a eistinct articulate propo- ', the house would assent to its intnehickion, hul,.etails
s'tien for the consideration of the house he (the Chancellor . themselves a future opportunity of con-. 1, ningdetails
its
class.--a
of time Exchequer) would have b2ori ready to consider it ; ' and of doinis justice to it large maul
tailmi,, ii4iffoo.ft,,ln
aboutg 25 :). (1
but %Nile!) his hon. f.iene's argument upon that subject 'class inere,ing. it would appear,ta
' time
'were undenia,lile,
was founded on a, unae, abstract proposition, it was dial- a year. The evils of the presau . s
7.l'lt'be removed b
cult to nicet it. The sates reinerk would apply to his amid he believed that those evils Lou Dilly . .
lie friend's °bonveto," „, so the evasions of the time interference of the Legitlat .ire. (Cheers )
honottra i.t.ire rose for the purpcs) of briefly
t• e• oeiliape were premised. with respect to pro- Sir G. GIIEY said.
.. . .
law, w iit..., .the ' t
v • .11 induced him to eplo,e EI lU-
. ' ^1 for the preventiou of which wecautions stating the reasons i h,e
bate duty, are
until
,
1 t: of time bill. If there we; e arty atirtrieuity ill the
might be taken, bet some definite proposition was duc ion.
submitted to the house upon that question, it was useless incitsui, an if . 3 ~,.
and an. adva•ita,e could be e•iierel‘ by their not
: to 'decision''' upon its enerits, Ire could
tto ie. wo wiated tithes, they immediately coming a
to discuss it. With respect to -ftr)l 1
and thus hav- 'I A object to the proposal that it snould be brought in, and i
were frequently belch
ttentutPrests, leases fur
wreLeasiilib;ject to probate eitiat it should become the subject of their future considers
ing become claa
ithrespect to the latter part of the proposi- lion. But there was no ambiguity whatever in the case.
duty. AV-- - The hon. etl himself had distinctly stated the pro-
pertyten —name y, drat
lions of his hon. ft
• g to corporations,
universities colleges, visions of the bill, and he had further told them it was
belongiu
s and chapte'r's, he believed that a bill identical, or nearly identical, with one which he had be-
bishoprics, dear
oil' that subject had been already brought fore brought under the notice of the house. Under those
upoa the whole
turity by his r ight hon. friend who pre- circumstances it appeared to him (Sir G. Grey) that they
to considerable in
aofilce which he had the honour to hold. ought not allow the measure to be introduced unless they
ceded him in thleie
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer') had were prepared to assent to its principle. He considered
(I{"r, hear.)
not bad time to ma ke himself master of the details of that that any interference on their parts in such a matter as that
.
that it was a suei
nutted bject which would be extremely mischievous uuless an d. bl
bill, but he willingly ake n ispensa e

. 61
84
. -23