The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

CHURCH PEWS:.

.
On the motion of L...r41 Atlil.o%. 'teemlints were
ordered to be laid before she I 1..u.r of all &collie,
greeted for the enclosnre Murl erection of pews in all
churches Ar d chapels hrlon gong io the eistotilii,h•
mesa throughout En ....bind and %Vole% frutn the
year 1797 to the present

DISFRANCHISEMENT or GRAMPOUND.
Lord Joux Runoff, in onikitig the motion of
' which he had given notice, frit it necessary to otter
wino! Opllll4llsw to the :1111114e 1111011 the Pattfret of
it, :la well as 0u olie eerier»! rropriety" of re.
moving the rimier. of convicted close boinsigita
to rich, large, and populous towns tan nine-
twilled. When moving for les‘e to introduce a
similar Bill in the last Parliament, the general
principle upon which he mowed it were admitted.
Whether this was a proper punishment fur inch •
case as that of Grampomid, or if there were any
propriety its removing the franchise.° soother place,
might yet lie argued of fortlwr length and at a
more advantageous opportunity on a future stage of
the Bill ; at present he would confine hiniselfto
the consideration of the best means of giving those
electors of Gram. ))))) rid an opportunity to exercise
their vote in some other place which had not
shared in the guilt of the corroptson.
this view he proprwed in the Bill the removal
of the franchise to Leeds. • town surrounded by se-
veral villages, each making part of the borough,
and conlatuing altogether shout 70,000 person..
These would give, suppose the qualification to be
the paying of 5/. a•year rent, 8,000 electors; if the
qualification were 'raying 10/. a-year resit, there
would be about 5.500 electors. His chief aim was
lashes. that it would in future he a principle of the
proceedings of the House to tran►fer, as often as
convictions furni►her. the opportunity. the charters
of close and corrupt boroughs to populous towns.
if the principle should be, established. it w•s little
'natter whether Leeds or any other 'dace should be
selected for the first traveler, or any populous town
iu the West Riding of York. All he wished was
to see the principle established ; or if not that, soy
other alticli would tend to the rune effect would
be equally satisfactory to himself. He then moved
fur leave to bring in a Bill fur the object before
stated.

Mr. CANNING undertook, in oliservasce of the
agreement between the Noble Lord and the
House, that the previous stages of his Bill. as far
as they had hero corned through in the last Part's,.
merit, should not be prejudiced; Ministers would
offer no objection to the Bill in tins stage of it. He
would not be ',ledger' by this, however, to refrain
from objecting, if he sew fit, in the other stages;
at the saute tone be assured the Noble Lord that
Miuisters were far front wishing to object to his
motion. He and the Noble Lord kit in common
as to the necessity of punishing this instance of de•
tected corruption ; so far as the disfranchisement
of Grampouiid went, the Noble Lord was likely to
receive support. The admission which had been
.orade, however, did not extend to the nomination
of Leeds as the hest 'sloes to which the fraisehioa
should be transferred. On this he would remove
himself, and when the Bill came before the House
he would he prepared to meet the different points
contained in it which he might think objectionable.
He was particularly 1111XionS that the admission
which had been made by Ministers with respect to
the Bill should not be applied to any thing
beyond the bare disfranchisement of Grampound.
The Noble Lord seemed to think little of the suc-
cess of his Bill, or the specific case to which it
referred. provided he. c•ouhl establish the general
principle. lie (fir. Canning) did not hesitate to
ray that he untold do every thin in his power to
prevent the adoption of any principle by the Howse
that could lead to a supposition of a general di*.
I/0411011 in the Government to alter the slut,
of borough tepresentation. He would pay the
utmost tottroitimi to the specific case of the
Noble Load; he would do all he could to pre-
veut any general principle from being deduced
from the specific case. He wished to know if it
was the intridion of the Noble Lord that Gram-
pound should be heard by Counsel against the dis-
fratichiseinent

Lord J. RussFr.t. said that he had no such in-
tention. The caw had been carefully examined in
all it. particuLtra already by a Committee of the
House.

Lord A. HAMILTON paid, dist if there should be
any objection to Leeds up the place of transfer,
there were many placer in his part of the counts•
very well fitted to receive !lie (nag/i.)
Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to the Right Hot,.
Gentleman, (moist to draw nothing from the mi.
mission of Ministers like a pledge of assent to the
!present Bill, or any principle for future proceed-
ings. There bad been come objection to removing
the franchise out of the hundred to so remote a dis-
tance; but all hr caked from Miuiste►l we,, to
give the puhjert rimiest consideration. The knot'.
ledge of the ooucurrence of Goverimient with the
Rift; had given great setisfacii (((( throughout the
country, cod if it should be seriously supported.
might mend more than could the., be cooceived to
restore the confidence of the people to the Govern-
ment.

M►. D. GILEIERT said a few words, the purport
of which we could not gather from Ina interstice of
them.

Lord MILTOK, in reply to what had fallen from
the Honourable Member, admitted that he would
have been right it co other borough had been, or
ever should be, disfranchised beside% Grampound.
The difficulty which occurred in the preseutt•ase
was, that there were dive ether b ))))) ughs in the
humfred, each of which lie feared were subject at
some future day to fall into the same reproach.—
(Loughter.)—lf the ham. Mies should then lie
merged in the hundred, it might happen that all
the boroughs would in time be convicted—the elec-
tors would then have ten voter each for the boroughs,
sad two fur the counties, in all twelve votes.
Air. D. GILBERT eXpialord.

Lord J. RUSSELL then bronght in the Bill.
winch woo read o Mot time. •nd ordered to be read
a awcond Hose ow Friday tre' glut.
PROVISION FOR TUE QUEEN.
Lord A. Hasattrom wished to as the Choneel-
,o

"v

.

lot of theExcherpter whether env Trivision was
to he made for the Quern in the Civil Li.i?
The ('itaucei.Lue of the EICHIQUaI re-
plied in the affirmative,
F.DWA&DS THE SPY.
Alderman Woos, in rising according to the no-
tice which he had given. had no other object than
to punish the guilty. and by no means was incliord
to offer any annoyance to the Ministry. He had
i done all in his power to obviate the necessity of
f the present Matt ; first, by applying to the chief
officer of the civil power, before whom he had laid
various documents, the depositioas of numerous
witnesses, and had added to them his assurance, that
, he had much more (ridertee to eller if opportunity
were furnished f., toyealtog it. His application
use umucceatd ; he bad heowght down upwards
of 90 documents to lay before the House, and un-
less a Select Committee were allowed to ersmioe
ii.to the matter. he would be obliged to reed
the whole of them to the Hottlic.-1 blirghter.)—
If the Committee were appointed, be would feel
perfectly satisfied with say decision they might
adopt; if the Committee were not granted. he
would be compelled to read all the documents, or
at least enough to convince the HOOP,. If he
could *hew that Edwards had formed the late plot,
had been going about for years exciting and inviting
persons to embark in it, hod famished all the arms
which were seised at thit late trials, and more which
were not seisedw-if Ise could prove all this by
laying satisfactory evidence of it before the
House, it would be almost impossible to refuse
the Select Committee. He had evidence to prove,
and that given by persons not implicated. many
of them having good certificates of character, that
Edwards had called oa them repeatedly, and urged
them to undertake the bonne*, of a conspiracy
against Government ; that he had offered them
arms. money. and every other requisite and induce-
Meat to the undertaking. He had traced the his-
tory of Edwards back during a period of five years;
he intended to confine himself to a period of the
last two years. In the first part of this period ha
was at Windsor iu a very indigent condition, going
about with busts for sale. Suddenly he got into the
company of a very rich man, had abundance of
money, which he attributed to the death of
a German Count, from whom, he said, Lord
Castlereagh had helped him to acquire a consider•
able sum of money. He would shew evidence that
Edward, was connected with Castles and some po-
lice officers shuntg. the war, for the purpose of de-
coying French prisoners from their quarter', end
causing them to be seise*, by the officers when they
imagined themselves to be in the act of escaping.—
If be could prove all this, the House must grant
him a Committee; if not panted, then he must
tuke the next best course left him for the perform-
ance of the duty which he owed the public. When
he considered the character of this mso—the maw
nee in which, as should be proved, this fellow had
seduced poor wretches into the commission of a
crime. apparently for the purpose of betraying them;
his behaviour towards them. telliog them on th
night on which they were taken, that if they were
defeated by the military they were to rally at Lord
Harrowby's; his perfidious intimacy with Thistle-
wood, having uti=se logging for him, and after-
wards. when the amation for Thistlewood's op.
prehension promised *sufficient gratification to his
avarice, betraying him to the officer,: all these thins
gave the mind an impulse of horror such as made
people doubt if the perpetrator could be human.
These and many other imporiaot facts he would
substantiate by good evidence. He hod the pre-
cedent of Ministers in his favour, who had on lees
than a twentieth part of the evidence he would ad-
duce, referred a far mote important question to a
Select Committee. The worthy Alderman quoted
the opinion of the Lord Advocate, in the case of
Watt, a spy. to shew that it was advisable to pu-
nish spies when convicted of such violent miscon-
duct es he had to prove. He then proceeded to
state the particulars of the evidence he had before
him. The first was that of one Piuckbard.'of Beth-
nal-green. wise had men Edwards in a public.hottee
in that neighboarbood ; Edwards proposed to him
to take certain instruments into the House of Com-
' mom, in appearance like books, but really coo-
instol•barrels. which were to be die.
charged on the assetablir; tow was to be made into
balls. lighted. and thrown down iuto the body of
the House--
Mr. GitadraLL wanted to know what authority
the Goo. Alderanau bed for the documents he was
Offering to the House?-1 Cries el " Order I")
Mr. Dessert. expreseed his surprise at the in-
terruption.
Mr. W. WYNN thought it a disorderly inter-
ruption.
Alderman Woos said. that the depositions had
been prepared. mud the parties were in waiting at
Lord Sidmouth's, ready to swear to them. The
next evidence was that of one Toobridge, who had
frequently met Edwards, bat never without the
latter endeavouring to excite him to violence and
sedition, 'spatially against the person of Lord
Cestlvreagli. whom Edwards invariably describ-
ed as the b---y Irish rn---r. The next
evidence was by SeEriosq,2irliehedknown Edwards
fur five years, mad Ted repeatedly received
Lions from him to embark is • conspiracy against
the State, and was especially solicited by Edwards
to go to the Smithfield meeting. where open revolt
and riot were to be expected. Another witness lied
repeatedly seen Edwards, beating up in public-
houses fur recruits to the Cooed of rebellion, di..
playing hand grenades, and offering inducements
for the enterprise. Auother evideoce was waked up
by Edwards on the t9th of August, who said. that
filaischester was on tire. the New Bailey burnt
dowsi, awl Mr. Hunt killed. Edwards invited
*bit evidence to turn out immediately. and take
arms that the people might hare vengeance. 'flits
witness gave a lung description of the plot, which,
as Edwards informed him, was agreed upon ; he
would nut trouble the House with these ',sui-
cides*. Another witness lead give° Edwards two
sword* at his request. Edwards dirtied this wit-
tier' to see ; the •ittiees smut, sod found
Edwards in a Brunel jacks-4,4th pitch. gunpowder,
and other conibmitibles around him. forming gre-
ti ides said certridges. The worthy Alderman loess-
tiOtirti a variety of stiteasioe. and stated the contents
of their testinimiy,oll of 'Ouch proved that Edwards
had beta for a lori time bodied in urging his dia•
bobtail iiseatemea to rtbellion in public houses
~dlO ceftwohinsof yid et Bully smong that

:a.O• .t • a 44% 141:i

al~.,rr

;

•
where;povirty grave him any hopes of Wee& A
large supply of money, which he was found to. have
the
ment. Whether this was the 1,0004 for ceasing
possession of, ,O treed back to the Govern.
Thistlewood's apprehension, he could not say.
Upon these, and other similar grounds, the worthy
Alderman moved for a Secret Committee to in-
quire into the conduct of one George Edwards dor-
Mg the last two years, especially ss to Ins connexion
with the tite traitoroua conspiracy.
Sir R. WiLsott felt it to be his duty to second
the motion ; be hoped Government also would an
quiesce, as it wonld give tin opportunity for refitting
those rumours which had prevailed so manifestly
to the discredit of Government, about the share that
their supposed agent, Edwards. lied in the laterite*.
cities. He had spoken with no one on the subject
of those trials who did tint seem Maine...cif with •
belief that Edwards had been the sole contriver of
the conspiracy. Spies might sometimes be 'trees-
sary ; but • system of spies was abominable.
When the country arrived at that condition which
made the Ministers declare spies to be ne-
cessary for its general government, such Minis-
ters ought not to lose a moment in abdicat-
ing. Au awful responsibility attached to the
use of spies; too much vigilance could not be
used in preventing them from becoming agitators
and contrivers of conspiracy—above all, they ought
not to be furnished with much money. What might
not such fellows es Oliver, Castles, and Edwards
effect in the obscure villages of this country, with
a.coortmend of as much money as they found neces-
sary for their purposes ? He did not assume that
Edwards managed the whole enterprise in the late
plot, as they had it in evidence that the conspira-
tors deemed the assassination of Ministers to be a
necessary requiem fur the havoc of the Manches-
ter massacre. But it was proved that Edwards
seduced a great many of those who suffered for
the late conspiracy. He was the more likely to be
jealous of such Measures after what had taken place
in a neighbouring country about three years ago,
where the most shocking execution of the culprits
did not produce so much horror as the escape from
all punishment of the wretch who seduced the cri-
minals into the perpetration of their wickedness.
Edwards was as worthy of death as any of those who
suffered. There was a great danger in allow-
ing such a fellow to go about with money, in-
sinuating that he had the authority of men in
high circumstances for what he did. It must have
the effect, at least, of making the poor and ig-
norant suppose there was not so much crime so they
before supposed in embarkiiig in a plot. It. was
higbly deagerous to suffer such fellows to escape
with imPuititY, when convicted of such naked wick.
educes; it would make the miscreants swarm over
the country as soon as known. His object in se-
conding the motion was to come at the truth.
Mr. Bauxite contended that there was nothing
in the case, in the evidence adduced, or in the
proposition of the mover, applicable to the usages
of the House. The object, on the face of the me.
lion, was to teaming into the criminality of a parti-
cular person. Was there ever any thilig so strange
or anomalous proposed to the House ? He had fre-
quently cautiooed the HOW* against erring en this
ground. They had high and important functiom
to perform; but it appeared to him. that whenever
they had acted judicially. they had appeared to
little advantage. To inquire into the particular
criminality of an individual ! What power had
they for this ?—(Hear, /sons the Ministerial side.)
—ln the judridical courts there was the power of
putting the witness, as it were, in the presence of
the Almighty, by making him depose an oath.
Where was the need, what was the pretence, for
not seeking the usual remedies of the law ? He
understood that the worthy Alderman had offered
leis depositions and documents to the Home Secre-
tary, wits gave no encouragement to the inquiry.
What, then, was it necessary to have the concur-
rence of that personage in preferring a bill for a
criminal iudictment ? But what were the docu-
ments ? Pieces of paper, not sworn to, nor of any
value bryoud waste-paper. The worthy Alderman
had sagaciously remarked, that it was very wonderful
that all of his deponents spoke of the arduct of
Edwards.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.)
Did it never reveal itself to the judicial accumen
of the worthy Alderman that there might be such
a thing as a conspiracy ?—(Cheers from the Minis-
terial side.j—Besidea. were not most of there de-
ponents, as it was well known, implicated iu the
dark conspiracy which had been detected ? But
in any case, was the House a Grand Jury? and
was there such pressing danger of an explosioo,frons
the door being underlaid with traitorous gunpow-
der, as to make so summary a mode of preeedure
necessary ? He said nothing for Edwards, but he
suspected, though he had no fears of them, that
the deponents were not a whit better. In the
milky kiudness of his nature, the worthy Alder-
mail was unwilling to have Edwards banged ; be
only wished him to be sent out of the country.
He would most probably have the object of his
motion. Their why trouble the Howie ? Next
he would tutu his attentiou to the observations
of the gallant seconder, which formed seve-
rer ground.. He came over frooi France, as
lie acknowledged, with those stroit feelings which
were so common upon him, that Edwards ought
to have been put in the *inseama box on the trial.
Suppose the Committee granted, would the gallant
Member have a special instruction given to the
Committee to ask why Edwards was list put in the
witnesses box ?—(Sir R. Wilson replied. " Yes.")—
It was impossible fur the House to occupy its valu-
able time upon a motion ao brought and so support-
ed. He defended the use asides in tile present 140-
toted state of the country. He might expose himself
to obloquy in saying it, but is his mind none were
fit to govern who would scruple at using them
solder such circumstauces. Suppose the house of

Ilie mover or seconder about to be orsaulted by a
gang of rubbers, and oue of them came beforeli.sud
to wforui, would either of them be so stupid or
so mad ae to say, " not believe you. because
you say you were to have been one of them ?"
should the House use less discretiou for the public
Mau individuals would for themselves? The worthy
Alderman was a Magistrate, mud ought to baste
known something of the spirit of the laws of hia
country ; be should have known dial the evidence
of accomplices was cumulous), *might by tbescui•
must law. A great tringi.trata of eatiqu►ty, whom
lie would not venture to compare with the worthy
Alderman, had 'hewn by Ms use of informers


.;

that he was not Ettore employ log them. 'rt.
Gentleman concluded with ginning, the nur.i.
Sallnet—

" Studies toujurationis vehewtenter r.+,..,,
ideuot, deatque °perm, ut rue, gusts tultutne miust•v• .
Imbrued."

Mr. Hoetiouse. in gie;ng his vote this nieio,
thought it necessary. after what hod fallen from or
Hon. Member on the floor, to soda why he nisa„t
to vote for so extraordinary, a.) stupid" a 'own,.
He felt that he had need of more than the n.,i
indolgence of the House, completing the peculiar,
very peculiar circumstimces snider which he sd.
dressed them, to that indulgence he trusted,
than to the weight of argument which he riii,nit
Hia difficulty was increased to having to crowriet
the opinion of so respected. experienced, and it..
telligent a Member its the last Traitor. who hM
declared that there was no precedent in the mots
of the House for the motion. Now airless his
senses were so doll or so perverted as to prem.'
him from distinguishing between right and wow...T.
he perceived many precedent., all of which arr..
in direct point. As to the need of evidence oil
oath. he could phew cases where the House hail
assumed the power of jurisdiction without any exa•
miteatior at all—without soy other intent loii.;
entertained than of itifirciing p hmeot. Meeks.
nations against Ministers were visited iii this
then why not michniatioris against the people ?
He thought there was good cause for going Mos
the examination. because of the unfortunate ca.
derstanding elsewhere, that Government, lir
its own agent, had owing sted the late plot.—
There were other disagreements "Toth were eqnsi'y
lamentable. The first sii‘lit he sot in the House
he heard several expressions implying a necessity
fur what was called reducing the people ; particu-
lar degrees of violence were proposed to he need
towards them. which proved a feeling to ex ar.
within those walls which was not all uotlersoonl
outside. He would not say that the Governineto
were guilty in employing Edward...ir that they were
innocent; that was part of the matter lit tptestin.
Let the opportunity be given for clearing it up, soil
skewing that Government had not wtoctooted
crimes. In reply to the observation, of the
Member'o, drawn Irons the aucient world, he oil,-
' posed the Hon. Member alluded to Cicero. Toe
lion. Member had forgot to state that Cicero th,i
not make Fidel, and the Allobroges eotottorstwr.„
(cheers front the llpposition.) --the did not api.!y
this remark to Gosernmerit. but he was rept,-
ing to the inference of the Goo. Meistieer's
argument on sppealiog to the ancient v.orld, as :1
its wisest inhabitants espoused the epy system.
Now many of them utterly reprobated it. An its-
telligerit and honest historian. Surtounis, placed
them biter edverserie reruns, and cautioned Princes
against ming them. The Emperor Tito* used
to cruse the spies to be whoa, and 'lent tutu distant
banishment; Constantine frequently put the tae
formers to death • wad not only among the good t,ut
among the bed Emperors did the dettstatiouef spies
prevail. Caligula said that he hail no ears for inform-
ers; Domitiao disliked them. and *aid, Prince-pt.
qui delatores new costive, erridet. So much for she
opinions of that socient world to which the Hon.
Member hod referred them for has authority. sod to
which he (Mr. Hobhoost) only alluded before an
assembly so well informed un the subject, to skew
that the inference was not tutirely iu favour of
the Honourable Member but as the anrient
world gave no uniform support to the moos!.
merit of spies, neither did the modern world
The only ;sort of Maelitavel which stewed to
countenance the employment of such oriortitnetite.
was the assertion that governments must employ
brutes as well as men. Moutesquiese laid slow,'
that even in a monarchy spies ought not to he Cu.
ployed, because there wain coup feeliug sootiest
them. The prejudice, said ,Ir. floishonse.
generally prevailed against such persoirs.sullictentiy
psiiited oat the iufainy of their etoplovisierst.—
Hear.)—lt o_ppeared to hint that the film. Ger,
tleman (Mr. Bankes) in saying that spies were
necessary to good government, had moue one mis-
take, and that for good, he ought to have sob-o-
wed bad—(4 Imeg/)—for be did nut recollect
any good government in which they had received
employment. Some would make a distinction be-
tween a spy and an instigator, but lie could not
perceive the justness of it; for could there, he
looked, be a spy without so insiigation ?—/ --
A spy lived on his intelligence--his subsistence de-
pended on what information he brought, and there-
fore he thought it was not in the nature of things
that such agents should remain plosive observers,
on the contrary, he thought that where a conspiracy
slid not exist before, they would make our. After
a few more remarks be hoped the House would
consent to entertain the question, and thus show
that they participated in the feelings of the Com-
mons of England.—(Cheering )
_

• Mr. BUTTERWORTII said, that a short time be-
fore the explosion of the plot, a ',talon who lied
been seduced into it. without any kirowledge of the
ultimate derrigini of the couspiraiors, vent to en old
friend of his (Mr. Lutterworth's) with whom be
had been acquainted for many years, sad told him
what was to luipprii. Fiji trivial Winced to make
• confessinu of all lie knew osi the pubjeet to him
(Mr. Butterworth. as we understood). He hap-
pened to he our of toast at the tune, but on hie
return lee brutal that the man hart called at ins
house. It railtseqiiently appeared, that the marl
had been led into the glut by One la Ilk OVell
boors. and nut by Elwards—(Hoar,6ene)—sail Le
really believed di a up to that those I'o h,ti hero Ic.
noceatt. He haul been induced injurer the plot Ji
reading-room lie frequtirterl. here ro• lotto•t
barn maim his mum,. hr related to lora Ihr
of the circurnetarices—(Cries prefer I '')
he wished to buret him bere.e r .11.141str.alt the
depositions, but the 0111) wale terrified beyoarl mes•
cure, and begged :hat Ina risme might out he wade
public., and at hits request he, had 1)ot been rarimirre.i
ie• a witness. He had sent for that tiered that err,
evening. rind asked him lead lie known Edward.
Hr replied !se hell not, but that he lied been toll
by our of the eroirpisoturs that Edwards had ireto
present at one of the early sueetings of the consir-
Calor*. but din fie bad out been at any of 'hoer
which were held near to the time of their opprrben•
1•1011.-.• (f/ear, Iseurdrum the Ministerial betichee.)—
He had further asked him. whether it was Iris opi-
nion that Thistlewoorl arid the ether. ',nuttiest coo-
spinners had been led ibis., the design of assarw-
uatiou by Edwards' lii replj, lie )tad asked hit;

did he !appose that they were children—(Heer.
—.that ihey were men of good Awed.. and
thit they ueeded no prompters, for that they were
ready to engage in any the most desperate project.
( llear, hear, hear.)—He added that he had heard
it said among the conspirators, that in carrying into
execution • project of extensive good, the ionocent
sometimes necessarily suffered with the guilty,
and that some of the servants were to be di,.
posed of with their masters.—(/Near, hear.)—
The Hon. Gentleman thee animadverted on the
ceidoct of Aldermen Wood in putting questions
t- to*u in their dying moments. He was satisfied
'eat certain speeches tan occasions of this nature
stung out into the country did iutliiite mischief.
Hr should not have said • word were it not for the
purpose of doing common justice to Ministers.—
Hear, hear.)
Mr. Helms said that the Honourable Member
who had just sat down did not stand higher in
the opinion of the country then his Hon.- 'Friend
the worthy Alderman, and, therefore, it was with
extreme surprise he ad heard his animadversions
on the latter. The remarks of the 800. Member
amounted to nothing. It was idli so attempt to
conceal from themselves the feeling that existed
throughout the country respecting .2be late plot.—
(Hear.)—He quoted an example ,of ripies having
phoned crimes, for which those whom they had
led into a participation in the temosiesion of theta
had perished on their testimsay, sad vindicated
the motives and conduct of Alderman Wood in
every stage of the affair. Instead of speeches pro-
ducing mischief, he declared that publicity on all
transactions never did any injury. If the case was
such as was pretended on the opposite side, inquiry
was what they should court. In his conscience he
believed that his Majesty's Ministers, or some of
them. had been privy for some time to the plot
going on. The motion was merely intended to see
whether any ground existed for • cinninal proceed-
ing against Edwards.
Mr. W. WYNN said that the motion fur a Secret
Committee was founded on such extraordinary
grounds as he had never heard advanced before. It
was said that a precedent was found in the occasion
when a Secret Committee had been grouted to in.
quire into certain machinations against the Gui,erso-
snout ; bat surely there was nothing similar in the
two ctoes. It seemed that a Secret Committee was
now to be granted fur the gratification of public
curiosity, but he had always heard that was a mea-
sure resorted to for the purpose of laying grounds
for future legislative proceedings. As far as he
had heard, all of the persons charged were more or
lets concerned in the plot—not one of them had
ected the port of a good subject, and give,. iiifor-
mAtiou of the nefarious designs which were in agita-
Lanni. It was not at all unusual to hear the
accomplice, by whose evidence a conviction was
obtained, accused as the principal criminal and first
instigator. The Hon. Gentleman who had spoken
third on the question (Mr. Hobhourel, would, lie
believed, have, like Titus, scourged the accom-
plices who offered evidence, sent them about their
humors,. and trust to accident to produce less pot-
luterl information; but if Ministers hod not listened
to them, would not the plot have been carried into
execution ?—/Hear, hear.)—he believed in this
co,, cience that it would. He did not think that
then entered into such deer with the intention of
',etre% ing one another, bat t t when in, their courage
t Ord them, and fearing lest they should be antici-
tested hi' rome of their confederates, they came for-
ward amid mode discoveries, and he believed that
this one of the greatest grounds of safety to the
iitry.—(Hess, hear.)—By acceding to the mo-
tion he did net see whet possible end was to be
Emmett —not a shadow of argument had been aid-
s sliced in support of it, and he, for one, should
ts?,At cordially vote against it.—(ilear.)
r. DEN M MI said, he feared that Honourable
Centleinees in looking to the danger from which
sores rebated the country, forgot the greater danger
of their employment, sapping the foundations on
which the security, the enjoyment, and happiness
of the community depended.--(Hear.)-11e could
conceive nothing of so novel a nature in the motion.
The worthy Alderman appeared to him to act in a
manner neither abhorrent to the principles of the
constitution nor the feelings of a man. Similar
motions for inquiry had been made after the esecu.
tiuns at Derby in 1817, and Sir Samuel K gamily
lead always been in the minorities who were favour-
aide to it. An inquiry was reeurnini riled before •
Secret Committee into a grimed system; the ob-
ject of the motion was to discover, by the exami-
stition, whether the proceeding* against these persons
had been fairly and legally pursued. There
might be cages he did not deny, where spies
conk! be • justly employed.—((.•heers from the
Ministerial side.)—ln the Catilioarean conspi-
racy it undoubtedly was the duty of the C 0,..
sul to send nut • spy.—(Lord duering.)—But
the question was not the same. The question Item
was. who supplied Edwards with motley many
mouth, before the time fixed for the execution of
the plot ? Ho* it was that he beset Thistlewood
ttie moment he left flovsliam gaol ? The question
whether firre there was • manufacture of
ei joie by accomplices. who were afierwsrds to be
'nought forward ignited their fellows to a Court of
Jneice ?—(Hear. hear.) —He was far from mean-
ing to accuse Ministers of countenancing such a
proceeding ; but he said it was impossible, once a
'py was employed. to draw • line beyond which lie
could not go; and the Minister who employed
built persons at all inctirre.l a very great revolt.
The quei•tions put to Thistlewoal at the
isle's of execiiiioo, wrre ioloouttly cantles-led with
the iii.ruvety oh I !ir truth. and might have led to
of 4 c otspirsCir of a more atrocious
kind than ;hat vshic:i had been detected. With
""Peet to the examination of Edwards in the
(oust, it was very desirable that all persona of that
ilewription should be placed in the witnesses box,
to undergo the most strict cross-examination by the
poisoner's Counsel. It alight in this instance, in a
t.ty great degree, hive extenuated their guilt. If
it appeared that the fair tine was overstepped in
the province of a spy. whieb ire strongly suspected,
there could not be a stronger case for the apples.
lion of • Secret Committee. The Honourable
Gentleman then commented with severity on the
Part acted by Oliver its the year 1817. He
c°l" state from the information of the pri-
. aoner's Counsel in the last case. that Edwards ap-
. peered to hove been • most active hiseigator of the
plies from beginning to end. He owged that the

whole of the spy system Orwell• to hint so detest-
able, that wheurver he thought of it the word. of
Mr. Burke always recurred to his memory—os The
seeds of destraction sire laid in civil intercourse and
habitudes, men's tables and herbs are sur-
rounded with seams, end all the steers bestowed
by providence to make life sweet sod happy. are
perverted into sources of fear mad misery." If the
Government must take gees into employment, in
like manner must the directors of the Customs and
Excise. and the Bank. It was probable that the
system was carried to much too great an extent,
and Ise should most certainly give his humble sup-
port to the motion..
The Arroanav Greens,. contended, that
throughout all the evidence offered on the trials,
there was not a tulle to support the opinion that
Edwards had bean employed try the Government,
but that. on the contriory, the natural infrrence front
the whole tenor of it was, that having hero engaged
in it, and having come forward to give information
Den to the dm of execution, the Government had
been enabled by his means to detect and crush
one of the must fool conspiracies that had ever
disgraced this sir any country.—(Heat, hear)....
He asked the honourable Alderman would he have
thought it necessary to produce Edwards at the
trial, if he had known what was stated by a man of
the statue of Monument, that when Thistlewood
and he were going up hand-ruffed together to Lord
Sitinsouthis office. Thistfewood bed told hint to
say before the Privy Council that it was Edwards
who had seduced him into the plot, and that
he was at Catu-street ?—(f/ear, hear, hear,)—
when Monument replied, how can I say that when
he was not there? The other answered, no.mat-
ter, I'll describe his dom, so that you may say
he was there. and give a descriution of the clothes
he wore.—( Cheers, from the !Ministerial beaches.)
He (Water desired hum to send that round among
the teat (tithe prtsoners,that they might all say the
wane.—(Cheers )—Edwards had never addressed a
single 'speech to the conspirator.. and had never
proposed any plait. The Host. and Learned Got-
deism' then read no extract room the speech made
by firma when brought up to receive sentence,
confirming, he said, in a most extreurdinery
tier, a statement made by Adams, and unsupported
by any oilier witness, purporting that Brunt ob-
jected to a plan proposed for making an attack on
London the night of the King's futieral, because it
did not include within its objects the sissassine-
don of the Minirters.--(Hew, hear. hear.)
After citing another !passage from the same speech.
he asked, could it after that he said that Brunt had
been instigated by Edward.? Tidd, in his speech,
had called the Ministers a set of villains. Now,
those individuals must be credulous beyond any
thing who could conceive after this that these men
required instigation to any crime. Again, it was
imagined that Edwards had the means. end did
contribute isoney to further the plot. Now it had
appeared that at a meeting at which Edwards at.
tended, it had been proposed to treat the men who
were to tumble at Cato-sheet; thistlewood pro-
posed to subscribe 64. and Brunt offered to contri-
bute a pousid note ; Edwards offered nothing. But
MSS it possible to suppose that if he had been in the
possession of mousy fur the purpose imputed, he
would nut have turtle an offer of it ?—(Hear.)—
Ho Shea condemned the conduct of Aider Men
Wood in putting the questions to Thistlewood.-..
But what evidence had he obtained ? The first
question was. When did you become acquainted
with Edwards ? Answer : Two days after leaving
Horsham geol.—Where ? Answer: At Preston's.
—The worthy Alderman was at a lows to know whe-
ther Preston in Lancashire ems meant, or Preston
the cobbler's—(and he might ask the worthy Al.
demistt whether he had not had a communication
with that person within the last 24 hours 1)
But he was informed by Thistlewood that it was at
the latter. He now canoe to the last question, and
it was fortunate that Thistlewood did not lend
self to what seemed to have been the views of
others. for if he hail then declared that Edwards
supplied them wish money, it would immediately
go forth through the country. Oh. 'llvistlewood
has declared it just before being launched iuto
eternity. The question was, Did Edwards give
you money ?—but what was the answer ? A trifle,
now and then a pound note. Was Edward.
/I matt appearing to have money ?—No, not
much ! Undoubtedly the conspirators had much
more mousy than they ought to have had, from
whatever quarter it had come ; and if what he had
just said si Id come to the ears of certain person.,
they should know that Government were not with.
out proofs which might serve for bringing them to
patine. The four affidavits relied on by the *sudsy
Alderman came from Chambers, a witness produc-
ed at the trial., but whose testimony had been
discredited by the Jury ; Tidd's daughter, whose
evidence had been considered to strengtheu the care
for the prosecution, and from persons of the stators
of Toubridge and (we believe) Pinckliard. The
worthy Alderman seemed to have postponed his
valuable information till slier the execution of the
convicts, as if to throw • slur on the trial end con-
viction. He for one should certainly oppose the
motion.—(Hear.)
Sir F. nonuser said, that if ever there was •
speech which made for the side it was intended to
oppose. it was that pronnuaactud by the Host. and
Learned Grutironsip.—(A Lartgh)—lf 11w case One
SO Very chow for Government as the Hon. and
Learised Grotlentati had contended, what was there
to prevesst the Committee being granted. when it
was tiotoriuus that the public d was so much agi.,
toted. that omitting short of iskquiry would satisfy it ?
Tile Monte was led by the speech of the Hon. and
Learned Gentlemen to suppose that there were 'we.
soils of consequetice unit wealth iii the country who
had coo niensticed she !plot (ss No,".froar the oppo.
site ride, and we htlieve the Attorney-General.)-11
certainty had not beets asserted its terms, but it WM
1.. be implied. The Hoes. and learned Gentleman,
ism stating that the conspindurs had themselves con-
leveed that *hey were not seduced by Edwards,
bed stated whet was not the fact; on the con-
trary, he believed all, but certainly the moot of
them hid declared that Edwards was their chief
iststigatur. A great many of the animadversions
mute on Alderman Wood were upparliewsitary,
and highly improper to he applied to a Mem-
ber, who, whether right or wrong, hail uso other
. object but the performance of his duty. Of the guilt
of the men executed there could smut Ise a doubt.
they bed confessed it themselses—thoogh be did

' not hesitate.to say, that if the evidence lironght for.
ward on the biols hell been misupported by the
confession of the men themselves, it amnia hive
been unworthy of belief.—(Great bughirr on the
Miraisserial side.).-He should hare expected flirt
the solemnity of the 'abject would hive broi4hed
any thing like uu expression of levity during iis ills-
cussion. He protested *pima the employment
spies. hot he did hot think them so much the evil of
the lime, ma symptom of that evil. The notion of
a harmless spy was so absurd, tlrat it was quite prepos-
terous to attempt to establish a distinction between
spies sod instigators. With respect to Edwards, it
was a subject on which a great deel of mystery
existed. If he was genii backwards and forwards
for two months between Govensment and these un.
immolate people, he could oot conceive any justifi-
cation for Ministers. He could not give up the
ground that this motion might lead to the ex-
culpation or erimination of his tlejesty's Ministers.
The Right Hon. Gentleman says. that it is one of
the most disagreeable parts of a Statesman's duty
—the necessity of employing spies. For hip part.
he was a common vulgar Eaglialnaii, and did,
from his heart and soul, abhor and detest them
(Hear. hear)—usy. that be would rather suffer by
the treason than come at the detection of it by
such means ; he would go further, and any
with the poet, that he would " not betray the
Devil to his fellow." He objected to the use of
spies also at the guemotoff podtwor for it tendert to
destroy the honest English character, which was a
better security to the Government than all. the arts
of those hated characters.. To this part of his ergo-
mein the Hon. Baronet called in the authority of
Montesquieu and fleeced.. It had been said that
it was only justifiable to employ them on great °c-
essions, when the safety of the country was at stake.
If then the country was in this iniliaupy state, it
was the Government who were answerable for
(Hear, Isear.).—There was another thing to be ob-
served on the danger of employing these desperate
and degraded instruments—he would. suppose the
case, which. God forbid. that he should turn spy ;
well. hr joilis a gang of conspirstors; if detected,
he was imm•diately a Government spy, but, if it
should succeed, why then he was* true conspirator,
come in fur his ,here of the plunder.—(Hear,
Gear.)—lt woe as Macbiavel observed trulx, to cut
pair twin throat. But was it in Etigland, within
the walls of the House of Continuos, that lie heard
the employment of them justified ? He isfshed the
Right Hon. President of the Board of Control
would try at some of the public meetings where he
so frequently now made a speech, and lie would see
how such 'raiments accorded with the feelings of
his hearers. He would be 'brown, like Satan. on
the floor of hell, and would be received by a uni-
versel hiss. lie contended the people would not
be content by the House endeavouring to blink
the question by refusing the worthy Alderman's
motion.

• Mr. CANNING said he would have been satisfied
to have left the question in the state in which it had
been placed &y the speech of his Learned Friend,
or 114 had rested on tbe•grosod which the worthy
Alderman had placed it, be should not have enter-
ed into the discussion t bat the Hon. Baronet had
put it on soother foot4ng, sod so far from only
meaning to bring an individual criminal to justice,
he now found that leptbe4dee. lisrossetie speeeb it
was to be considered es ainesiou of accusation against
his Majesty's Ministers: under that impression he
thought he should be inexcusable if he avoided
giving his sentiments on the matter. There was
one vice um through the whole of the Hon. Bs-
ronet's reasoning, and that was, assuming that what
wu contained in the papers which the worthy
Alderman held in his band (falsely called depod
sitions, for they were nut sworn), was fully
proved, and reasoning from them accordingly.
Now what is the amount of the Hon. Baronet's
charge? Why, that the Government have been
guilty of employing spies—ao very heavy charge
prima fide. when it was 'considered it was proved
that a conspiracy existed, and that fact not being
denied, he did think it strange that it should be
urged as an offence in the Government to have
detected it by the method which they had. He did
not desire to take merit to the Ministers for having,
in suing themselves, incidentally raved the coun-
try ; but that it should be assumed as prima facie
evidence of guilt, was, he thought, a little strange.
The Hon. Baronet blamed the Ministers because
they had saved the country by human means, sail
did not, like the Puritans of old, seek the Lord—
they had availed themselves of the treachery of
wicked men, who had betrayed their partners in
guilt, and he would ask, what would be the task of
Government if yore are to be accused, if you 1110 not
reject such means of discovery, and believe no man
that you would not be ready to receive into your
friendship and take to your bosom ?—(Hear, hear.)
—The lion. Baronet had taken great offence at a
smile, as he called it: he might hove named it
a laugh, but the Hon. Baronet might Irani
from this that, absurdity excites ridicule more than
wit. The House was incapable of betraying any
expression of mirth on the serious question before
it, but the glorious absurdity of plots detected,
after putting aside the meins.'was irresistible ; yet
that war the task which the Hon. Baronet would
lay on the Government. To illustrate the Ho-
nouroble Baronet's rearoiliug, he would suppose
the case of a plot motile his servants to burn
his house. If one of the parties to the plot
should come to inform him of it, be must say to
heist Traitor to your comrade'', leave my pre-
gene', and pollute not my ears with thy horrid
tale! Begone, spotted traitor. I detest and despise
you !" The light Hon. Gentleman continued :cif
the worthy Baronet loved to sit in magnificent so.
Inside. or if he had a taste for being blown up, he
might use such language if it pleased him; hut if
he had women or children under his tutelage and
protection, be would find that the romantic exceas of
justice to the traitor would be more than counter-
balanced by the derehction of his duty to his family.
" The country," said the Right Hon. Gentlemen.
6,0 but a larger family. and the argumeitt is, that
yen should have suffered the conspiracy to tate
its course.— The Hon. Baronet ridicules the

tlsstiutitosi which has been take• between • spy
and •n mitigator—he says. that if he is • spy.
he most assist the treason, if it were only by the
4:onfidence which his presence gives. and pro taste
to the degree which they suppose lam embarked is
the design. I admit it ; and this is the evil incidental
to Abe *se a( those justraniests; Nit it is a, be:l6sec

of evils, and I must consider ti,e duly I eliould Ute.
tray, if I neglect the metros put huh my hands."—
The R•glit Gentleman continued : —lt had
been said by the [lon. Baronet. take your
m.r, but not your spy. In the fast Can' lb., would
be at iihettv to act tat Ina information. If the mull
cosine to them on the 111 lac, and told something,
but not euflicient to junify you taking measures ef
frustration. and he mad that on the IVediteorlisy lie
could tell thrill more. Now the goiretion he would
ask the Hon.
_Monet was. whether they would he
at liberty to mod burn hick, without therehy run•
sting the risk of converting hint from a spy to an
isilisrmer ? Should he reply to the Hedonism the
laugh of which the Hon. Baronet conspirers's'
ought to he re-doubled ten thousand times over et
the grossness of the absurdity. But if. ott the
other ham'. it should be answered. that they might
send him back. then from that moment the in-
former becomes it spy. It was amusing them with
fanciful prinSosit i —it was stupidity—it was dri-
vellingto say they might not use this mean of
insuring the safety of their country. It man wiper.
liamentary to suppose any man intended to give a
sanction. and security to traitors. It was imperils.
mentary, he knew. to impute motives; but it am
not illogical to say, that If the conduct recom-
mended by the Hon. Baronet was followed, the
next conspiracy would infallibly succeed.— ( Herr.
hear.)—" And now," said the Right Hon. Gentle.
was., •Sor the wrathy Altlernam.l—(4
" I know not what there is in the meolion I have
made of the worthy Alderman to excite se marls
mirth. I sin sure I am far from intending. by
any thing I say. to disparage the worthy Alder.
man. I know the worthy Alderman is much look-
ed up to by leis fellm.citigens. An Ablerrnsh is
• great mat,—ii Mayor is a very great sumo, dad I
mean not in aught 1 say to detract from his dig.
tiny, on the contrary, by divesting him of this ill.
judged motion, I hope to restore him pore and us.
milked to the popularity which he so deservedly
acquired." The Right Hon. Gentleman then
adverted to the conduct of the worthy Aldermen
in going to l'hisilewood just before his execution.
and said he niust have had n strong cam._ male out
to him before he would so have acted. If it bed
been to an Affirm to assist him to make his peace
with his Maker. or a Inuit leaving a family in diti-
beis, he (Sir. ('alming) might have gone, but no salt
thing was the rase lime. But what if it had been proposed
to his to go to a inau that he might accuse another,
from hie known muniments, be might be supposed ready to
do, if it was so proposed to bias to poodle to malice. ha
would repel the proposition with genre as greet es if the
tempter of asankied stood ie a tangible shape before his
So edam his to sin. That they were al then involved in
the embarrassment of !Micelles to what might be consider.
ed the veered words of a dying man—that they were am
so levolved they were indrlded to Thistlewood, sad not to
the worthy Alderman. Be put it to the worthy Alderman,
whether if Thistlewoud'a answer had bees seek as to tomb-
ease Edwards in the guilt of CiCiliaff by supplying may,
whether be would have bete so Mks* on the subject of
the interview. If it bad hems so, it would have hoes re.
girded as the legacy of a dying said, sad the coustry
world have rung with it from one red to the other. As
it wee, be hoped to hear ao merest it.- e /few, kaer.)—•
But this foundation was oat laid, for it appears that Ed.
wards was se active and busy agent, sad but a litele richer
thee the ethers. The Right Hoomarabk Goldman adverted
again to Alderman f'ood's visit to Tidstleireed, sod asked
hew it happened that the interview bed newer been sea.
Booed by the worthy Alderman? but she abject was left by
him in the saes oilstone es if it had Wan 14111.111,1a0a. • ilo
then remarked we she asinatiem of the Alsaingedihmede.
as to the away which hod been supplied from a palm
Bas's servant, sad also to that which hod bate furnished by a
perm of more imp rtauce than a gatleneases serval;
" there were (cortoneed Mr. Crannies) ether sources, ad
the Government !mew it."—(Mesr.)—Mr. Geeing next ob-
served us the impropriety of the worthy Aliterasins apposing
the Secretary of State was to act as public praweeter.
He supposed, that because *bee the heeresory of State
waisted the worthy Alderman, when Lord Mayor. to heck a
warrant in the City fur him, so the worthy Aldmase fancied
he was to back his indictments at the west-end alba tom;
he was not thereby denied justice if be had a user.--bet he
mast travel in die high road. It had bees said there was no
Royal road to geometry, sod he would my three was also no
andermanfe road to justice. He must, me the prelim course,
carry his bill to the Greed Jury—bat nu, he woad have the
Crowe or the House of Commas to prosecute her him.
He could sot, like an ordinary Min, go ha the ordi-
nary way, but be must go like may ether abject, for
great as the worthy Alderman was, lie was but a sub-
ject. He (Mr. Casting) put the case of two perms, of
espial oos of whom comes first sod gives informa-
tion a his accomplice,. wee it sot the weal agree to a-
cept the evidence of the Ar.t who came in against the other,
and was it ever heard of that they *bald afterwards tem
rowed sad prosecute the largesse'? He gave this coneessioe
arginotenffe grafts, fur he denied that Edwards was se lash-
ed; he came ?oblides*, sad his tat formalities was sorb
as could not possibly be acted epos; so far the Illeakiera
would plead guilty. On the receipt of the ieformatiew they
took all wecessary steps; but as to those base uses which
the Hue. Baronet imputed, he detested end abhorred Meal
as much as the Hon. Baronet himself. Mr.Ceeeleg thee
adverted to the nature of the proof produced by the worthy
Alderman, and argued un its niselliesency to pot the
Goverment en their trial. He was pervaded that Ham
would nut do so at the instance of the Ha. Baronet
or his man. He contended the egret of the metion,if grab
ed, would be to encourage traitors; but that if oegasiverl,
they would not thereby encourage spies, hat only leave ma-
im to its waters! disadvantages., the treachery of anew
pliees. They would only leave to the State the power of
putting down mischief, and it would mot he the fault of
Government if they did not do it.
Sir FRLNCIS BURDETT explained, that what he objected
to was the Government employiug a set of 'pimping abort
the country systematically and insidiously.
Mr. Canning; explained.

Sir F. BUILINITT—." One thing more I with to knew, what
the Right Hon. Gentleman weans by the phrase, ' the Him.
Baronet and kit wan!' 11te Right Hen. Gentleman Wks of
the worthy Alderman being drunk with popularity, hot I
think he is drank with insult:wee."

Mr. Cassino explained (as we teaderstood) by saying,
the phrase was is aliening to some remarks or a speech of
bis daring dm recess of Parliament.
Mr. BROUGNAII said, the view he took of the epsectiort
was so simple that hr doubted wt if smelled be slowed is.
He wished, be justice to himself mad the worthy Aldrtasaa.to
pat a Tinto/is ur two to the Right Hue. Gentleman mail to
the Learaed Gentleman who preceded him. No ohm al.
rated to that past of l;te Astorrey-Geserara speech is which
Ileeatioa was made of since other person dials the simile.
asses stream basis( supplied Thistlewund with wary, sod
boa the terms is which it whies it was imastiosed, he bed
conceived it alluded to some use ine that aide the Hurst.
(" No, no," Awn Ike Mintolerial beftekso)-11* was 1014
that asisteaderatitoding was removed. The Hos. mid Loft.

rd Guatemala thee peer reded Su exculpate attalleilr Codlid•,
charge which hail been more sham iIONOMBISO 1111004
by she !limbers for Weaseniaarer, atiehitio
defender of she app oyeieas. He apposing is
if what he had and would bray that cosiiiragleooN;

Loused Geetleonsu thee reeteuded there leaf so redo olt
law or justice to permit the trial of we wbobbill hoes She
isferottt of one pka, and the instigate, o( otolohrr.

Mr. Cantinas haw leg jest eatereithe Moist the 1
°foilsman (Mr. Istiagataat) caned Ilse semi
abet he bad said.
Mr. Cisme esplaised.