The National Register.
London, England, 1822-07-01 00:00:00

TILE NATIONAL REGISTER

of rewarding themselves into their own bends, and deprived
the Crowe of that prerogative which the Crown had heretofore
enjoyed. The provisines in this bill were also of a most ex-
travagant, kind for by it the Secretary of State, who bad been two
years in office, was to have 3,0001. a year, whilst • Judge
must be Chief Justice fifteen years before he was entitled to
2,00001. a year. The hon. member concluded by moving reso-
lutinns eaprimsive of these seiniments, and declaring that this
act ought to be repealed.
Mr. BANK ES mused as an amendment that the other orders
of the day be read.
Mt . G. HENN ET did not believe that the House of Common',
even constituted as it was, would have voted a pension of 3,0001,
to Lord Sidmouth. It was painful to allude to particelar indi-
viduate, hut he felt it his duty to declare, that from the haploid)
day when Lord Sidmouth quitted the chair of that blouse
become • prime minister of this country, for which situation, i•
point of ability and talent, he was no more qualified than any of
the door-keepers of the House, down to die present time is
had done nothing to deserve such a reward as that width had
been bestowed upon him.—{Cheers.)—lt would be very cow
sietent iu those who were pleased with the approbation which
had been bestowed upon the Manchester massacre—who ap-
proved of the circular letter respecting Witte, and of the spy
system—it would be very consistent in those persons to sup-
port a proposal for giving the pension to the noble Lord ; but
he and others who thought with him that all those acts tended
to bring ibe government into contempt, and to put in issue the
peace and tranquillity of the country, would never have con•
seated thus to vote away 30001. of the public money.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, be would assert
that a more able and efficient minister of the Crown had not
existed than he bad proved himself. By his talents and earl's
lions he had contributed mainly to the salvation of the country
is an hour of danger and peril. Having these opinions with
respect to the character and talents of his noble friend, it was
not without feelings of disgust that his heard the gross attack
upon hint, in which be had been compared to one of the door-
keepers of that Ilouae—a comparison to which, in the ordinary
courtesy of one gentleman to another, no gent', man of education
ought to have been subedit, 41. (Cheers from the ministerial
side.) Such language never ought to have been need, as it was
never called fur, in the abseil ations of one gentleman von the
political conduct of another. Taking all the circumstances into
considetation, it was not without feelings of great disgust that
he had heard some of the remarks, and as a gentleman or a
member of Parliament, he could not sit there without express-
ing his reprobation of language the most disgusting and dis-
graceful he had ever heard within the walls of the British Par-
liament.--(lnintense cheering from the tninisterial side followed
the noble Lord's speech. Ito the midst of it )
Mr. BROUGHAM rose and said—" I protest, Sir, against
the tone and language in v,liich the noble Lord has presumed to
address a representative of the people iu this House." (Loud
ch ers front the opposition side.) " I protest against the prin-
ciple of this language; and I sin etirprised how any minister
should dare—(Loud cheers from the opposition re echoed from
the ministerial side. In the midst of the coutendiug cheers,
which lasted for some minutes)—
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to order, and said—
" NV hen any Hotiourable Member uses the word, ' dare,' as
applied to any remark made by any other member in the
course of a preceding speech. 1 apprehend it is quite incite-
sista°, with the order of Parliamentary proceedings. (Cheers
repeated on both sides.) If the term is applied to any obser-
vation used by toe, it is irregular ; fur at the time of making
a retnaek which could call for such an expression, the hon.
and learned member's duty was to have interrupted me. and
called for the objectionable words in order to have them taken
down, that the sense of the House might be taken oil them.—
The lion. mid learned member has neglected to do so, and I
now appeal to the ('hair *tether he is regular in the expression
he has used. (Cheers and cries of " chair, chair.")
The SPEAKER—As I ant appealed to by the noble Lord, I
must ray, that it would not he consistent with the usual
prac-
tice tut debates if I were to interrupt honourable members in
the use of expressions which may he interpreted with two
meanings—one of which would not be against the rules of tle-
bate. Undoubtedly, if the use of the word " dare" were to
be interpreted in the se ..se in which the noble Lord takes it, it
would be quite disorderly ; but the House will allow me to say
that the term is one whielt is frequently used in debate without
any offensive intention on the part of the niember speaking, and
110 interruption is given. If, in the heat of debate, many ex-
pressions drop from members which may not hear the most mi-
nute investigation, I trust the House will not think it neglect
in the Chair not to call to order. (Hear, hear.) The reason is,
that on such occasions the chair would make an offence which
most probably was never intended. (Cheers.) I apprehend
that if the House baa attended to the debate, they will recol-
lect that the expressine used by the lion. member (Mr. Bankes)
in allusion to what fell from the hon. member for Shrewsbury
(Mr. 11. G. Bennet), was used in the warmth of debate, and
without any intention of personal offence, and that the reply
given to it by the hon. member for Shrewsbury was of a similar
character. This was the reason why I did Dot call to order at
the time, because I conceived that the words were nut intended
to give offence, and therefore the interruption would be unne-
cessary.
Mr. BROUGHAM.--Sir, I should bow to the decision of
the chair, if given against me, with the same respectful de-
ference that I would now return thanks fur its decision in my
favour, if, indeed, thanks could be required 'or the perforpi-
auce of a duty. Every matt who heard the expressions I used,
in reply to the language of a noble lord, must have taken it in
same sense in which you, Sir, have taken it—that it was not
meant offensively to any member. If the noble lord); inge-
nuity had not discovered it (which I excuse), his experience
at least in Parliamentary matters ought to have taught him that
the term is applied, slid has been applied again and again,
without any personally intention. I, Sir, used the term when
I beard a minister of the Crown presuming (for I must not use
a harsher word) to charge a representative of the people with
using language disgusting and disgraceful; but I will repeat
the sense of the term, though it may not he permitted to use
the sound—that whether it be presuming, or venturing, or
pleasing, (for to such critics of words I will give the whole
vocabulary of the English language, such as it is understood by
those who speak it, and by him who does riot, and I will give
hint his own vocabulary into the hargaiii), end I wiil sin that
in this House no wan ever before heard a minister of tine
Crown using such epithets as "disgusting" and "disgraceful.'
as applied to the observations of my hon. friend (Mr. 11. G.
Bennet.) There may be those who thought the subject to
hieh it referred disgraceful.—l will not say that I am one—
hu► I am nue who think that the use of such language by a
minister of the Crown is quite new in the House of C 1111 l nimis.
—(Cheers ) I may be pardoned if I speak with warmth after
the attack that had been made spun a fellow-member, and that
member my esteemed, mud valw.b, and dear fl it.llll, WllOlll all
0110 kunw 1101 A esteem mid rem. et for the ainialite autl excel-
lent qualities of his heart.—( lies, lieu ) Hewing sun It au

attack, it was impossible for me to sit silent.—(('beers.)—
With respect to the general question, continued the lion. nod
learned gentleman, he would only nay, that without entering
into the personsl character of Lord Sidinwith, which the noble
marquis (Londonderry) bad so much dwelt upon in his spreelt.
• more absurd and ridicnieus attempt than that of raising Win
to the office of prime minister of the country, and particularly
at the time he was no raised, ha•l never before h. en heard of.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY raid, that the words—
" disgusting and disgraceful," were not applied to the general
scope of the lion. gentleman's (Mr. Rennet's) arguments, but
when he heard that hon. member compare his noble friend to
one of the doorkeepers of that House, and when lie heard him
mid that situations such as be filled had been, from the Revo-
lution downwards, given to great families as the reward of
corruption, he could not hut say that such language was din.
gusting and disgraceful ; and however much disposed he was
to retract his welds used in the heat of debate. which iniglit
be considered offensive, lie could not, under all the circum-
stances retract those calmest one.
Mr; CREE% El briefly replied, and after disclaiming all
motives of personal hostility to Lord Sidniouth and his family,
proceeded to observe, that as the honorable member for Corfu
Castle had moved as an amendment, that the House should
proceed to the other orders of the day. and as his (Mr.Creevy's)
object was to pot his resolutions upon the journals, lie should
merely hand up to the Speaker his first resolution. lie should
then take the sense of the House upon it ; and if it were nega-
tived, he should then move his other resolutions, awl as the
tither orders of the day were proposed to be read. lie did,
not, however, intend to divide the House upon any of his reso-
lutions, except the first.
The House then divided upon Mr. Rank's amendment, when
there appeared—For it, l42—Against it, 42—Majority in
favour of the amendment, 101.
On our re-admissiot, into the gallery the other orders of the
idly were then read ; but, as it was proposed to each of them,
r Creevey promoted one of his resolutions as an amenduseut.
The amendments, however, were all negatived.
The House then adjourned at a quarter before three o'clock.

Mr. P. PALMER said, if Om several suggestions were
agreed to, nothing of the bill would be left. He bad no ob-
jection to the bill, nor the particular clause ; he only thought
that it by no means went tar enough. The bill had been so
clipped and curtailed, that he found himself in the situation of
the man who was invited to a venison feast—there was a va-
cancy on the table, and an apology was made for the absence of
the venison. The bill was now any thing but what was origi-
nally intended. The powers of the brewers were to be limited
originally, but all the means of doing • hat ware withdrawn.
It was any thing but what had been contemplated ;it did not go
far enough ; it would accomplish little or no good.
Mr. LusttimauN raid, that the clause to which attention
hail been directed, if carried, would be productive of consi-
derable disorder. The power at present possessed by the ma-
gistrates in the country had been most usefully exercised ; to
withdraw it would be of mischievous consequences.
Alderman 1% 0011 übsery ed, that all the alarm about this
clause Mlle from the magistrates. Why were the magistrates
alarmed ? —lf they did what was right, at what had they occa-
siiai to be alarmed .r—(hear.)—lf the licences were withdrawn
on honest and just grounds, why should the magistrates be
alarmed at publicity being given to their conduct 1-14 hat
reason had they to be alarmed at the acts investigated by
counsel and atturueys in open sessions? If the magistrates were
pistilied in doing this, they might as well examine culprits on
criminal charges ant private. (Hear.) He trusted that no cue-
sent would be given to withdraw the useful clause.
Mi. G. BENNET was surprised, when he brought forward
his bill, to find it resisted and petitioned against by those who
Lad solicited him to bring it forward. In the committee sixty
ineinbers attended, " mauy of them speaking all at the saute
tome.' They seemed to be desirousof suppuiting the bill, giving
friendly suggestions to amend the bill ; and yet they now came
down with made objections that could out have been drawn
Prow the bill—that must have been picked up by the eaves
droppers at the corner of streets. --(Hear !) Ile would leave
thew with the law as it now stood. That law, according to the
Ist James I. c. 9. any inkeepers or others keeping company in
their houses ab ye one hour were liable to be lined, and to
luau their licences. Nor was that law, which still remained on
the statute book, a dead letter; it bad been acted upon, tube bad
evidence to prove, by a clergyman, whose servant, during di-
vine service, was, by the publican's wile, suffered to have a
putt of beer. The licence was taken away. The fact was, the
!climate.; of licences resulted frequently from the must capri-
cious motives ; sometimes Prow such trilling pauses as the pub.
bean on li tt ing to take his hat all to the parson of the penal.—
(lieu, hear ! ) The bill was with the House, and if they
Dejected it, he should staler them to retain the laws passed in
the fist and fourth years of the reign of King James. He
should press the bill.
Strangers were then ritered to withdraw ; but after the gal-
lery was cleared, there as much conversation previously to
the division taking plaee.—The numbers were—For the third
reading 2rl--Agaiust it 71L—Majority for the bill 1/.
The House then proceeded to discuss some amendments pro-
posed respecting existing clauses, particularly regarding the
powers extending to cities and boroughs, as well as counties
awl ridings.— Strangers were excluded for near an hour.
Mr. 11. I LUKREORCE brought forward a motion, founded
on papers on the subject of the slave trade, recently laid before
the House.
Lord LON DON DERY said, this government had exerted
itself on all opportunities to put down the trade. He would
not, however, object to the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the KXCHEQUER stated, that he
should not propose the renewal of the Hank Charter till twat
semibreve Adjourned at 12 o'clock.
FRIDAY, JUNI 28.

Mr. J. BROWN gave notice that early in the neat session
be should submit a motion to make better provision fur the
catholic clergy out of the revenues of the state.
ituAsSEDA.GR IN.—Mr. LIJSIILN‘HUN moved the third
reading of the Roasted Grain Bill.
Sir R. WILSON moved as en amendatory clause, to reverse
all prosecutions for selling grain, and to reimburse all tines on
prosecutions. He bad understood that the tines were not to be
•uforeedi he had circulated that upinion on the confidence of
what was stated opposite ; and he felt in sonic degree answer-
able for the errors which he feared I, had been instrumental in
leading others into.
Mr. T. Wilson and Mr. H. Sumner supported the clause ; the
hues ought not to be enforced.
Mr. LCSIIINGTON said this clause was unnecessary; the
Bill contained a clause to empower the Treasury to remit the
hues.
Mr. CALCRAFT was glad to hear that there was such candid
intentions at the Board of the Treasury and of other places ; and
if there really were the desire to consider the cases and con-
•ictions fairly, Lilly, and favourably, he 'bought the clause
ought to be withdrawn.
Alderman WOOD said, it would he better that the clause
abloild be carried. 'there were wme (Blenders who had not
touch reason to expect any very great mercy on account of their
being politically obnoxious; amongst them was Mr. Hun', who
bad Wien a very great sulferer.
Mr. T. WILSON observed, after what bad been stated from
the Treasnry, be thans,,ht it would be advise:able to withdraw
the clause.
Toe elause was accordingly withdrawn. The Bill was then
ri ad a third tune and passed.
The diecussion on the Scotch Juries Bill (in criminal cases)
was postponed till next session on the motion of Mr. kenucd).
—The bill, however, was committed pro ion& u, iu order that
home amendments might be made, and the bill primed.
R. port ordered to 64: received on Mouday.
'I he CHANCELLOR of the E‘CllEtiL ER moved, that the
House at its ristua du adjourn to illuuday. Agreed to.
Mr. 80-TiIWICK'S CASL.—•Mr. ALILBCROMBY presented
a p Hiroo from Murray Borthwick, the late printer of the
Glu,:jiao S. ohne!, setting lentil Ina wrongs and *offerings, as
thinly detailed in the litoceedingx of a former evening. He
had been seriously injured, inipi lamed fur 70 days ; his offices
broken open, and his papers taken away , and lie was eventually
discharged without [alai or redress. The informer war Alex-
ander, hut the real prosecutor was the Lord Advocate. To
bring an action against the bankrupt Alexander would be use-
less ; and if any one aa.d that Borth wick ought to bring his
action a the Lord Advocate, he should thtuk it would be
adding mot-Ivry to ihjustice. (Hear.) Bun thwick he hail nag er
loam. Borthwiek be never knew till now, and Borth* kit's
case lie would never abandon till that House hail declared that
il would nut Hillard redress. (Hear.) A great public wrong had
been done ; and the friend,' of the constitution, if they really
cousidered themselves the representatives of a free people,
ought to see that Inch wrung ought to be redressed.
Lord LONDONDERRY remarked that he il'd not consider
the question ul enquiry or no enquiry to be closed. lidornia-
thin might he asked fur; ■ case for enquiry might showu ;
the bun. imbiber might move for information ; and it would
thou bar dideannutd whether enquiry ought to he Matituted.