The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 15, 1855.

latter topic, for the purpose of showing how far I differ
from an opinion which seems to be very extensively enter-
tained throughout the country. If that word " routine"
is applied reproachfully to the performance of the duties of
the subordinate department a of the state—duties discharged
most usefully for the country by gentlemen who labour in
the public service with great assiduity and very inadequate
remuneration, and at the szane time with none of the in-
centives to publicity and popularity to supportthena—if the
word "routine" is applied reproachfully to the perform-
ance of those duties, I say that it would be just as reasonable
for a manufacturer to complain of the routine of his wheel,
because it always turns precisely in the same direction, and
works precisely in the same manner. Of all these depart.
ments routine is the very essence and soul, and without it
the machine of the state would be thrown into utter con-
fusion in the space of an hour. I will not, however,.say
that, under all circumstances, too much attention has not
been sometimes paid to the claims of mere seniority in the
public offices. I do not mean to say that promotion may
not occasionally have been given with too little regard to
the claims of superior merit ; and I am not prepared to I
say that the Government would, not do well to set aside,
but with a liberal provision, men who, although qualified
for the duties of public departments in ordinary times, are
unfitted by age or infirmity to meet the requirements of a
great emergency, and interfere with the advancement of
younger and abler persons. (Hear, hear. It is essentially
necessary that you should have " routine" in the public de-
partments : but then you ought to have over all of them
ruling minds. My noble friend lays down the doctrine
—and it is a doctrine which can hardly be contra-
dicted—that it is important for the public service tliat
public appointments should be made solely with a view to
the public interest. But I must frankly confess that I
think considerable misconception prevails out of doors
upon the question of the selection of public officers. No
doubt, in a despotic country, a despot or his minister, has
the power of selecting for a public department the men
he may think best qualified for the performance of its du-
ties, without any reference to the necessity of insuring a
co-operation among the various members of his Govern-
ment. But to apply that principle in this country would
be impossible in itself. and would be at variance with the
principles of our constitution ; and the Minister of the day
roust choose his associates from within a very narrow cop-
pass. The whole of our constitutional system, from first+)
last, hangs on mutual confidence. The Crown appoints a
Minister in whom it has confidence, and in whom it be-
lieves that the people have confidence; that Minister must
be supported by a body of colleagues, and those colleagues
roust be members of one or other House of Parliament.
There are some officers who must be members of your
your lord,hips' house, and there are others who must be
members of the House of Commons ; but the choice of the
Minister for associates is limited to the members of the two
houses. It is even far more limited than that ;it is limit-
ed to those members of the two houses who concur with
him in political opinions, and who are willing to co-operate
with him in official life. Now, he cannot include among
those men the members even of his own party who are pre-
vented by their devotion to more profitable avocations
from undertaking the engrossing duties of a Minister of the
Crown. And I must say, without meaning the slightest
disrespect to the present constitution of the House of Com-
mons, or without intending to raise the slightest doubt that
on all sides of that house are to be found men perfectly ca-
pable of discharging the duties of Ministers of the Crown—
I must say that since the period, of the Reform Bill there
has been an alteration in the character of its composition
which makes it more difficult than it formerly was for a
Minister to select his colleagues from among its members.
Previously to the Reform Bill there were a very great num-
ber of boroughs under the control of individuals, which
were known as "rotten boroughs," and there can be no
doubt but that those rotten boroughs, whatever may have
been their imperfections, or however irreconcileable they
may have been with the spirit of our constitution, afforded
an ordinary avenue to Parliameht for young men not
known to the public, but who were desirous of qualifying
themselves by early training for official life—not as a re-
munerative profession, but as a profession highly attractive
for persons possessed of independent fortune. But that
avenue to the House of Commons, that nursery of young
s',atestrien, has been in a great klegree destroyedby the Re-
form Bill. Look at the character of the men who are now
returned to that house, and more especially of those who
are returned by the great towns. They are men, no doubt,
of ability, but they are men, in general, of mature age.
_ _

They are professional men, or merchants—men of great
great sense and capacity in many instances—but men who
did not devote their attention exclusively to public affairs,
and who had not from their youth been trained to public
business. And I must here ob erve that the instances are
very few in which a man who entered Parliament for the
first time at a mature age raised himself there to any very
distinguished position. I may be told that many of these
1-1101er boroughs still remain, but I think it will be ad-
uui that, among the voters even in those smaller
boroughs, there prevails a certain degree of independence
which, although it will not prevent them from supporting
a member of the most influential family in their neighbour-
hood, induces them to resist any attempt to impose upon
them a mere stranger. The result is, that the number of
persons qualified by previous training for the duties of Go-
vernment is smaller at present than it was before the pass-
ing of the Reform Bill. I state this merely for the purpose
of correcting those exaggerated representations of the real
character of an evil of which so many persons are now com-
plaining, and in some respects complaining very justly. I
am still per ectly certain of this, that if there be in either
House of Parliament any man who shows ability and an
aptitude for business—who can explain and enforce his
own views—whatever may be his birth or his origin, or
his connexions—there is no Minister, whether Whig, Tory,
or Radical, who will not speedily accept his aid, and
welcome him into the service of the Crown if he should
think fit to undertake the thankless duty which devolves
on a servant of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) But so strong
is the feeling in the country against placing inexperienced
men in high office, that when, a few years ago, I availed
myself of the services of several gentlemen of great ability,
but who had not had any previous official training, I was
told I bad only raised a " squad of raw recruits." I say
that no minister, be he who he may, can put his finger on
what he may consider the most competent men for public
life, and say to one " you must go here," and to another
"you must go there" He must make his selections from
his political adherents ; he must make his selections from
those only among even his own adherents who are in a po-
sition to take office, and who are qualified for the dis-
charge of its duties. I make this statement because lam
desirous of correcting the exaggerated opinions which are
entertained with regard to the duties of a minister, and
the possibility of a minister's carrying out his own wishes.
1 say it is the duty of a minister, with regard to
every department in Parliament or out of Parliament, to
select, without partiality or fear or favour, the individual
whose services he can secure, and who, in his judgment, is
best fitted for any particular office. That is the principle
which is laid down by my noble friend ; and it is a princi-
ple which I am afraid, without citing instances which
would be invidious, has not been always followed either
by her Majesty's present Government or by any Govern-
ment that has preceded them. (Hear, and laughter.) But
we are asked why we bring forward this motion now; and it
is said, "True, there was this great neglect—there was this
great suffering—there were all those privations endured
by our troops—but recollect all that took place under the
late, and not under the present, Government." My noble
friend the Minister of War undoubtedly stands clear ;
hut, with the exception of my noble friend, the present
Government may very truly be styled a new firm with the
old partners. (Hear, and a laugh.) But the noble earl
opposite says, "you do not consider what wonderful
things have been done within the last three months."
Earl GRANVILLE—Very much in consequence of the
measures which were taken by the noble duke the late
Minister of War.
The Earl of DERBY continued—Settle that among
yourselves. (Laughter.) I draw no distinction whatever
between the late and the Present Government ; and if the
noble earl concurs in that view of the matter, he cannot
avoid acknowledging that her Majesty's Ministers ought to
be held responsible not only for the lathes of the last three
months, but for those of the last two years. You are not
dealing with the late Government alone; the present and
the late advisers of the Crown are one and the same. There
have, no doubt, been some few sacrifices made in the case
of individual Ministers. There have been some few Jonases
thrown overboard ; but, in point of fact, no radical change
in either the construction or the policy of the late Admi-
nistration has been effected. (Hear.) Well what has
taken place within the list few days ? The Minister at
War came down to this house upon the very day on which
my noble friend gave notice of the resolutions which he
has moved this evening, and said, " Why, I meant to pro-
pose a measure of great administrative reform on the day-
upon which these resolutions are to come on for discus-
sion. I was going to give a notice to that effect this very
evening." (Laughter.) It was very unfortunate, no
doubt, that the noble baron should have been thus disap-
pointed; but, in the difficult position in which he was
placed, he thought it advisable to postpone his great mea-
sure of administrative reform until your lordships had
'pronounced your decision upon the resolutions of my noble
friend. But there is another House of Parliament as well
as this. The pressure upon her Majesty's Ministers began
to grow a little inconvenient ; and the noble lord at the
head of the Government, not having quite so large a stock
of patience as the Moister of War, could not wait for
the day to which the announcement of the great measure
of administrative reform was postponed. He, therefore,
anticipates the statement of the noble lord his colleague,
and unfolds to the House of Commons his measures of
administrative reform. (Hear, hear.) I speak with all due
respect of what has occurred in another place, which
" must not be named to ears polite"—(a laugh)—but I must
be permitted to observe that I think these great measures
of administrative reform were ushered in in a manner
which bears somewhat the appearance of a coup d'etat.
(Hear, and laughter.) It turned out, however, to be a
coup de terre—(renewed laughter)—rivalling those coups de
terre on the part of a certain political character elsewhere,
by which her Majesty's liege subjects were so recently
amused. (Laughter.) On Friday last, of course by mere
accident, a gentleman got up in the other house of Parlia-
ment and professed great attachment to the noble viscount
at the head of her Majesty's Government and a prodigious
devotion to the service of his Administration • but he
stated that "he could not, at the same time, help saying
that he bad been a little disappointed in the course of the
last three months by the circumstance that the present Go-
vernment seemed to be little better than her Majesty's late
advisers." And after an exhortation to the noble viscount
to do something to retrieve his character, he concluded
with this sublime adjuration—

" Arise, awake, or be for ever fallen." '
(Great laughter.) To proceed with the quotation—
"He heard and was abashed and up he sprung
Upon
Onduttyheslweci3npgin;g toymwenh,omwotnhtey diw.eaatdc,h,
Rouse and bestir themselves ere well awake "
—(renewed laughter)—and upon the spur of the moment,
afsouwnhdeub
without notice to the House of Commons, and upon a mo-
tion for the adjournment of the house, touched by this
magic wand—l should perhaps rather say " Reed"—(great
laughter)—the sleeping beautyrouses herself from the slum-
bers in which for seven times seven years she had been
buried, dreaming and puzz'ing herself all the time as to
how it was possible that ancient arrangements should have
continued to separate the artillery from the Commander-
in-Chief. (Renewed laughter.) For seven times seven
ye.‘rs that has been the wakiog dream, the perpetual
puzzle 'of the noble viscount at i,he head of her Majesty's
Government. But, some how or another, in the
course of these seven times seven .years it never oc-
curred to him to reduce the phantom of his imagination
to a
st
ph
jer
noble
to bonereality.of
viscount
f h f
sLg
Parliamentarya (Laughter.)
tht e
hatr . f
thAnimatedey og however
Mentor,
t ,
notit suddenlyt o
be
,: by
spiration u
separated,struck
there was no reation why they should not now be com-
binedaid ; and, acting upon the idea, sprung up his
mu
nednetrttohtehceo
nMtirnoilsot Minister of
theof
Commander-in-Chief.
at n
anda n e
rttyhi
ne.h.
place the
leaberateirip:
artillery
proposition itself,
a laugh.) With respect to the
I et h
r merely observe that I consider it v
duty to wait
e
until it is before us in detail before Imymake
i with reference to it. Certain I am,
Minister of War can have no objectiona
has obtained with respect to the
development to the respite he
of the plans
however, anyt
that the
eall
to be

of the Government upon the subject of military reform. I
(A. laugh.) I cannot, however, give her Majesty's Minis-
ters
much credit for the zeal which they have file the last
few days exhibited in connection with the subject, inas-
much as I think they have been much quickened into
action by the hints which they lately received. (Hear,
hear.) I have a great respect for the deference which they
have shown to public opinion, but I trust that they will
carry that deference to a somewhat more considerable ex-
tent than was manifested by the announcement of the
noble viscount at the head of the Government in the other
House of Parliament. I entertain some doubts with
respect to the wisdom and the pradence of making such a
change with regard to the Ordnance Department as is pro-
posed, more especially unless the machinery which is to
be called into action with that cbange is well arranged.
I hail the proposition, however' as an evidence of increased
activity upon the part of her Majesty's Ministers, and
of deference to the well-expressed feelings of growing dis-
satisfaction and discontent which prevail throughout the
country. (Hear, hear.) But, at the same time, I must
say that in my opinion that increased defererce to public
opinion and that increased activity upon the part of , the
Government have not been a little stimulated, not only
by what has occurred out of doors, but by the hint
which the resolutions of my noble friend 'near me con-
vey. (Hear, hear.) One word more before I sit down.
The noble earl opposite has referred to the probeble effect
of the adoption of these resolutions upon the Government.
Ho says he thinks that nothing can be more unsatisfactory
than constant changes of government, and says that fre-
quent alterations of policy are a great evil to the country.
I am of the same opinion ; but I must add, that I wish
the noble earl and those who act with him had taken, at
the close of the year 1852, similar views upon that subject
to which they now give expression. (Hear, and a laugh.)
I am sure they will do those who sit upon this side of the
house the justice to consider that, however agreeable the
position which her Majesty's ministers, as a general rule,
occupy, may be, the recent position of affairs renders the
task of endeavouriug to discharge the various functions of
the public service one which any man would desire to be
spared. I beg to say—although I cannot deny that the
motion under which the present government has conducted
the operations connected with the war—l beg to say, and
I do so with the utmost sincerity, that I should very much
regret that the consequence of the success of the motion
should be the imposition upon noble lords sitting upon this
side of the house of the responsibility of administering the
affairs of the country at a moment so critical as the pre-
sent. Ido not admit, however, that the position of affairs
now is precisely the same as it was when I myself, from a
sense of public duty, was called upon to decline that re-
sponsibility of forming a government with which her
Majesty was graciously pleased to entrust me. In the first
place, there were then negotiations pending of the utmost
delicacy and perplexity; and to interfere with the pro-
gress of these negotiations by any change of Government
might have been productive of the most serious conse-
quences. On public grounds, therefore, a complete change
in the administration at the time of which I speak would
undoubtedly involve much inconvenience, and would be
exceedingly dangerous to the country. It also happened
that the noble viscount now at the head of the Govern-
ment enjoyed at that time the advantage of great
prestige throughout the country, and he, of all men,
was then deemed to be the best qualified of any of our
statesmen to conduct the public affairs with vigour,
firmness, decision, and energy. That feeling prevailed to
such an extent that I am perfectly confident that no admi-
nistration could be formed in February last of which the
noble viscount was not a member, which Would not be ac-
cused of having kept out of office that man in the country
who was the most competent to be at the head of affairs.
I hope it is not being disrespectful to the noble viscount to
say that the prestige to which I have referred has since
considerably diminished, and that the warmth and fervour
of that admiration which the country entertained for him
have fallen down, if not to zero, at all events to a tempera-
ture much lower than that at which they some time since
stood. (Hear, and a laugh.) I am not sure that if the
country was now to lose his services it would be inclined
to regard that loss as irreparable, or that without hisaid it
would be impossible that the business of the public service
could be efficiently conducted. (Hear, and laughter.) But
the noble earl opposite says, " we do not mind the effect of
those resolutions so far as the Government is concerned,
but just consider the effect which they are calculated to
produce upon foreign countries." The noble earl seems to
imagine that the consequence of the success of my noble
friend's motion will be that foreign nations will be brought
to look upon England as possessing no great resources for
the prosecution of the war; that encouragement will be
afforded to the peace party in France; that that country
would be rendered indisposed to continue her alliance with
us, and that Russia would gain confidence when she be-
came aware of how we ourselves were inclined to disparage
the means at our disposal. Ido not exactly know what
the noble earl supposes the consequences would be in the
case of Austria, but Prussia he appeared to think would
avail herself of the passing of these resolutions to take a
course inconsistent with our interests. The noble earl
has abstained, however, from pointing out a single word
in these resolutions which could make the impression or
bear out the views which he has represented to the
house. France, my lords, we recognise with the highest
gratification as our ally. The perfect understanding
which subsists between her and this country we hold to
be fraught with advantages, not alone to us, but to the
future interests of other nations. The noble earl com-
mitted a great mistake when he says that by these resolu-
tions we seek to disparage the resources of England. We
do not do that, my lords ; we seek to disparage only the
manner in which those resources have been husbanded and
applied. (Hear, hear.) We draw a distinction between
England and her Majesty's ministers. (Hear, hear.) And
if, by disparaging the conduct of the latter, we can incite
them to the display of fresh energy and activity in the
future conduct of the war, we need not for a moment ap-
prehend that the consequence will be that our friendly re-
lations with any great power will thereby be in the smallest
degree interfered. (Hear, hear.) It is my lords, because
I hold that—as the noble lord had said--the greater por-
tion of these resolutions consists of truisms which cannot
be controverted—truisms which it is absolutely necessary
to place upon record upon the solemn declaration of the
parliament of this country—embodying our determination
to prosecute the war with all the energy in our power and
to adhere to our alliance with France—it is, I repeat, be-
cause I hold that these resolutions give expression to those
sentiments, and because they declare your lordships'
opinions, announced in this house, to be in conformity
with the just feelings of your fellow-subjects, that I give
my support to the motion which has been made by my
noble friend. Whether he succeeds or does not, in carry-
ing these resolutions, I rejoice that while we, the members
of the great Conservative party, are anxious to maintain
the institutions of this country, we do not set at nought
the manifestation of public feeling, but that, while de-
sirous of co-operating with that feeling to the fullest extent
to which we can go, we do not seek to implicate ourselves
in the extravagances into which it is sometimes betrayed.
(Cheers.)
The Duke of NEWCASTLE, who at the commence-
ment of his speech was very imperfectly heard, in con-
sequence of the noise occasioned by a number of peers
quitting the house, said,—lt appears to me that the rea-
sons which have been assigned by the noble earl who
last addressed the house for supporting these resolu-
tions are so unsound that they will fail in inducing
many of your lordships who usually act with the noble
earl from giving the resolutions that assent which he is
prepared to give to them. The noble earl said that, al-
though he must admit the resolutions did, in some sense,
bear the construction of a vote of censure upon the Go-
vernment, he would feel deep regret if they should have
the effect of displacing the Government from office. Now,
I must contend that, if these are the opinions of the noble
earl, he ought not to support the resolutions. If the two
noble earls opposite believe conscientiously that, by the
displacement of the present Government from office, and
by themselves assuming—by the grace and favour of the
Sovereign—the management of public affairs, they would
be able to conduct the war with increased energy, and so
to promote the public welfare, I think they would be per-
fectly justified in bringing forward and supporting these
resolutions ' • but I must say that if the motion is brought
forward, not with the view of displacing the Government,
but of rendering what some noble lord asserts to be a weak
Government still weaker, it is not a course worthy of the
Peers of England at a moment like the present. Unless
the object is to displace the Government, I see no patriotic
grounds for supporting the resolutions. The noble earl
expressed some surprise that the two members of her Ma-
jesty's Government who have spoken did not enter into any
detailed defence of the conduct of the war ; but I think it
must have been evident to the noble earl that those noble
lords did not enter into such a defence because no case
had been set up on the other side which it was necessary
for them to answer. Accustomed as I have been, not
merely since I have had a seat in this house, but for many
years previously, to listen with the greatest interest to the
speeches of .my noble friend who brought forward those
resolutions, I must say that I never heard any speech
of his which seemed to me so deficient in strength as that
to which I listened this evening. It appeared to me to be
entirely defective with regard to all those great attributes
which distinguish his speeches. The noble earl did not
bring forward in his usual concise and consecutive order
such facts as he is accustomed to place before the
house, nor did he state to the house those clear and
logical deductions which on former occasions he has ad-
duced from the facts he has brought forward. Having
listened attentively to the noble earl, and to my noble and
gallant friend who spoke at considerable length, I must
say that, with the exception of the anecdotes wlich my
noble friend narrated, and one of which I toay observe
was utterly and entirely inaccurate—(a laugh)—l am un-
able to fix upon anything tangible in their speeches. Nor
do I think the noble earl who last spoke has materially
improved the case as it was left by his predecessors. The
noble earl has occupied the greater part of his speech in
referring to the doctrines of that association which has yet
to be formed, and of which he has professed himself' in
somewhat hesitating terms a disciple, though certainly to
a more limited extent than the noble earl who brought
forward the resolutions ; but, beyond this, he seems to me
to have confined himself to one single point—the policy of
the expedition to the Crimea. I bad hoped that I might
have been spared the necessity of alluding to any matter
personal to myself, but a noble earl opposite stated, cer-
tainly in terms of very great courtesy and kindness, that
he could not agree in approving what has been called my
"commendable ambition" in taking upon myself the ma-
nagement of the War Department. I will not on this
occasion go over that painful ground, but I may remind
the noble earl and the house that in the month of February
I commented upon those very welds, and I stated expli-
citly to the house—and my statement has never been con-
troverted—the precise circumstances under which I as-
sumed the office. The noble earl has laid considerable
stress upon the point that the management of the war was
placed iu my hands, I being a civilian,—as if it had not
been, I may say, a constitutional doc'rine in this country
that the management of the War Department should be
in the hands of a civilian. At any rate, that has been
the invariable practice. While the Commander-in-Chief
of the army is of course a military man, the Secretary of
State has invariably been a civilian. But the noble earl
maintained, this being the case, that I ought to have had
the assistance of competent military men. Now, no one
has more readily expressed concurrence in that sen-
timent, both in this house and elsewhere, than myself. It
must be remembered, however, that we have to consider
not merely who shall occupy military offices in this country,
but who shall command your army in the Crimea. lam
sure my noble friend the Commander-in-Chief will bear
me out when I say that for a long time I hesitated to con-
cur in the recommendation that my deeply-lamented friend
Sir G. Cathcart should be appointed to a command in the
Crimea. And why? Because I felt it of the utmost possible
importance to me that I should have the advice and assis-
tance of such a man at home. At the same time, as it was
the greatest possible object that Lord Raglan should have
his aid in the
in thebalcaonmc
em command da
rogfuamdeinv
ti division, n
to, Iplfaeclet
mydutygl p
an's disposal. The noble earl went on to
sayhitim a
t to be
Lord Raglans
that the Ordnance Department was left in a most ineffl•

dent state. The noble earl is not quite correct, however,
in stating that the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was
loft without the powers which the Master-General possessed.
I am certain that he was appointed under the impression
that he would have precisely the same powers which Lord
Raglan had, and, if any of his powers should prove defi-
cient, that they should be made up by the assistance which
the Government would render him. The noble earl also
commented upon the appointment of Mr. Monsell to the
office of Clerk to the Ordnance, and remarked upon the
circumstance of his change of religion, as if that had any-
thing whatever to do with his suitableness for the office.
I cannot see what it has to do with it, and, for myself, I
should just as much consider that it fitted a person for
the post as that it disqualified him. Now, with reference to
myself, I wish to say that neither in this house nor any-
where else will I accept any praise for assiduity and labour.
Assiduity and labour are the duty of every man who under-
takes an office in the Government; and I do nothing but
my duty in bestowing every portion of my time to the exe-
cution of my duty ; and if the noble earl can substantiate
that in the performance of those duties I stood in the way
of others who could have executed them mach better, and
that, in fact, I was a bad administrator of the office which I
held, then I say that no labour or assiduity which I be-
stowed should be viewed as a makeweight for any defi-
ciency of which I might have been guilty. (Hear, hear.)
The noble earl said that we ought never to have under-
taken the expedition to the Crimea, if, having undertaken
it, we had not taken precautions to render our proceedings '
effective. That opinion of the impolicy of going to the
Crimea is one, however, which has arisen out of the cir-
cumstances of the case, and not from any feeling which
was formed at the time. I appeal to your lordships whe-
ther, when Parliament met in December, we heard any-
thing of the impolicy of that expedition to the Crimea?
(Hear, hear.) What was the attack which the noble earl
made upon us then ? It was that we had not from the
commencement of the war formed our plan, and that the
Crimea was an after thought, taken up at Varna when
the siege of Silistria was raised. That it was which formed
one of the principal points of his accusation against the
Government at that time; and it is only now, when it is
thought that the expedition may not be attended with
success, that the noble earl and others becomes() wise after
the fact. (Hear, hear.) It is not fair, then, for the noble
earl, after his organs of the press spoke of impeaching the
Government for not undertaking it before, to turn round
tnuiocnbdbleeercetaaaukrsleeneiattnhhad not been attended with success. If
upon us now, and to state that the expedition was im-
%yr hoael seurebswtaanstinaote
ptrhoavtidwenheeen, tnhoe enixepaendsitfioonr
accomplishingeto haa rsasaide awgea
expected
xhshit
enet the object
tyoeetbvajii edec
et
Government.nien
Sebastopol
beforey i
Butew ,
is
tshhbeteyh
committeewes e
su ol
coupd?
l establishdhelent n
aoibnl
stateda
t
and that I did not contemplate a siege. The noble earl is
not correct in his version of my evidence. What I acid
was, that I expected to be in possession of Sebastopol long
before it would be necessary for the army to go into win-
ter quarters. So far from not contemplating a siege and
not making provisions for it, two effective and complete
battering trains were sent out, and were in Lord Raglan's
possession when he undertook the expedition ; and from
the very first every effort was made to provide the army
with the means of carrying on a siege. (Hear.) The
noble lord says that we made no provision for the com-
forts of the men -thqt we sent out no huts and no warm
clothing. -Undoubtedly, the huts were not ordered until
after it became evident that the place would not be
taken except by a long siege • but I must contradict the
statement that no warm clothing was provided for
the army. So early as the month of August a large
quantity of woollen clothing of every description, addi-
tional warm clothing, both under and upper, extra great-
coats to go over the ordinary greatcoats, and a variety of
things of that description to an enormous amount, were
sent out—a large portion of them before we heard of the re-
sult of the siege. But if the noble earl means that we did
not send out in the middle of summer that large quantity
of sheepskins and furs which we sent out subsequently, un-
doubtedly the noble earl is correct. It is incorrect and
most unfair towards me to represent that I have ever al-
lowed to drop from me in conversation, much less in any
speech in Parliament, or in any public capacity, one word
derogatory to the character of any officer in that army.
(Hear.) I have never thrown discredit upon any officer,
least of all upon my noble and gallant friend who holds the
chief command in the Crimea. The noble earl says the
Government is to blame for not making the railway sooner,
and to support the charge he refers to the answer of Sir
John Burgoyne, given before the Sebastopol Committee,
to what I must term a silly question—whether it would
not have been a great advantage to have had the railway
in October. Of course, Sir John Burgoyne said it would.
It would have been a great advantage if we had found a
railway already there. It would have been a great advan-
tage if we had had a railway all the way, and other things
was applicable.
the
et nFromnt in
o
equally impossible would as certainly have been advanta-
tmo Sebastopol.einberwhere this
And what raiwa'y is
when the troops landed at Old Fort? It was agreed by
Balaklavageu s Re
the generals and by the Government that Sebastopol
should be attacked on the north side, and it was only
after the Battle of the Alma that Lord Raglan and
General St. Arnaud determined on the flank march
which led to Balaklava, and subsequently to our
laying siege to the south side of Sebastopol. Is not
this a specimen of how accusations are cast upon those
who have the management of the war? (Hear.) And
when the noble earl says the railway might as well have
been sent in the month of October as in the month of
April, I beg he will recollect that I sent for Sir M. Peto
at the end of November, and that the railway was sent oat
in the beginning of December. (Cheers.) The noble earl
who brought forward his motion condemned the Govern-
ment for not being in a position to move the army at once
when it landed at Varna. The provision for land trans-
port requires a considerable time, and I am convinced if,
at the commencement of the war, it had been proposed to
the House of Commons to organise the transport corps
which I had the honour of providing through the instru-
mentality of that gallant officer ColonelANYEurdo' it would
have ,been laughed at as an extravagant and absurd,
though perhaps it would have been the wisest and most
judicious, step that could have been taken. (Hear, hear.)
When the army moved to Varna, on the special requisi-
tion of Omer Pacha, at the very earliest possible moment,
before all the troops had arrived at Scutari from England,
it is an undoubted fact that there were not sufficient ani-
mals to enable the army to advance from Varna to Si-
listria. The noble earl does not maintain that the army
should have remained at Scutari, but approves the order
to move from Scutari to Varna. That advance to Varna
was made with a double object—to give a moral as well as
a material assistance to Omer Pacha, and I have no hesi-
tation in saying that it was one of the main causes of rais-
ing the siege of Silistria although up to that time the
army had not become a moveable army. (Cheers.) Go-
vernments may have neglected to put the right men in the
right places, but no Government would recognise for one
moment the principle that any one but the best men should
be appointed, and every one would admit that the Go
vernment which had appointed unfit men to high office
had grossly neglected its duty. The noble earl who
opened the debate has laid the blame upon thq Reform
Act, in having effected a change in the composition of
the House of Commons. I think that complaint is
to a certain extent correct, but not in the particular
point alluded to. A system has grown up of late
years which has acted most prejudicially in regard to
providing men fit for holding office.
of our mercantile men refuse for two causes to undertake
offices of State ; the first is that they are unwilling to
abandon their private career and deprive their families of
the large and honourable gains they acquire; and the
every second is that they are reluctant to leave duties and avo-
cations that are agreeable to them, seeing the growing ten-
dency there is to heap obloquy upon The greatest part
man of every
side of the house and of every party who may undertake
the discharge of public duties. There are numbers who
are perfectly qualified to take a part in the conduct of pub-
lic affairs, and I shall rejoice, whenever a general elec-
tion shall occur, to see a large increase in the number
of such men sent into the House of Commons. But
there is a growing practice among constituencies not
to look among men whom they know to be of proved qua-
lifications and character, but to look up to clubs and co
teries in London, to recommend them men who aro parti-
sans of one body or another, and who sit and give a silent
vote for their party, instead of doing honour to the con-
stituency which returns them. As long as constituencies
pursue this course, and apply one party to the Carlton
Club and another to the Reform Club for members, so
long shall we have men of mediocrity prepared to give
silent and tacit votes instead of men whose minds are pre-
pared for the performance of great public duties, and from
whom a Minister might select the officers of his Govern-
ment. From that body alone the high political officers
must be selected. My lords, I hope that these discussions
will not lead men to think that we are a beaten nation—
;cbeers)--that we are incapable of the great deeds by which
our forefathers have distinguished themselves; that our
bravery is the same, and the quality of our soldiers is
improved, but that in other respects we have deteriorated.
My lord., I believe nothing of the kind. (Hear.) It may
said that we began the siege of Sebastopol in Septem-
ber, but, looking at the position of the allied forces and
of the enemy, is it so unfavourable to us, and so fa-
vourable to him? (Hear, hear.) We have placed a
pressure on the internal organisation of Russia that is
beginning to tell. Russia is suffering severely from the
drain of men, and the feelings of the people towards
the Sovereign power are undergoing a change. Is it
not true that we have sopped the direct commerce of
Russia? that we have swept from the sea every ship that
she possessed? that her great vesseYs of war are either sunk
at Sebastopol or locked up or rotting in the harbours of
Cronstadt and Helsingfors ? We have effected a lod,gment
on her shores, and by God's• blessing we may soon be in a
position to dictate such a peace as will be alike honourable
to this, country and will insure the attainment of those
great objects for which the war was undertaken. (Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE (who was greeted
with a general cry of " Question !") said that if by any
misfortune these resolutions were carried that night the
most injurious effect would be produced abroad ; and he
therefore trusted that their lordships would reject them by
a large majority.
Tho Marquis of LONDONDERRY believed that the
present resolutions were brought forward with the view of
testing the strength of parties in that house, and had no
doubt that those who supported them did so with a desire
to change the Government. Under these circumstances,
while he wished it to be distinctly understood that he did
not rise as the advocate or one of the retainers of the noble
lord who held the office of Premier, at the same time he
history,par party ttrhuegyg lwe s o
u forlwould
felt that, the honour and dignity of the Crown and the de-
termination of the country to maintain its position as a
great empire being now concerned, it would have been a
dereliction of duty on his part to remain on the cross
benches. If their lordships would not show to the world
pthoeweexr example pal emoofmdeinsttroancsteedricounsels
r
support a Government which, under great difficulties and
great pressure, and also amid some exhibition of party
feeling, were endeavouring to do their duty to their coun-
try. Their lordships must be aware, from the public meet-
ings that were being held in favour of administrative r f ,
that the public mind was in a disturbed and dangerouse°l2l
state ; and was it likely that the views put forward
noble earl (Lord Ellenborough) and his friends that by the
would at all satisfy the feeling out of doors night
ques-
tion? Could the noble lords opposite produce aoG'', this
overnment
whose talent, ability, and experience would hold
country the hope that its affairs would b e better out to the
uc e cond t d
in the present emergency than they were at present? Helium-
self wished to see well-considered reforms
introduce o
i t
all the administrative 'claspartments of the State, e Ce
having confidence in the ability e
yof the noble but, not
and his supporters to carry out those reforms.arl opposite
tory manner, he would oppose the presentmoltrioansatiefac*
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I rose for
VI *
e purpose of
making some observations more than
once within the last
half hour, but most glad was I to give way to the noble mar-
quis, whom, I hope, I may be permitted to my noble
friend, although I cannot claim any call
him. I was glad also to give
waytoni politicalno bilvelaftriioennsdwtihtie
noble duke on the bench belowmy noble
able, and
me, much more e, muc'i more entitled than myself to give explanations upon
the particular acts connected with the departments over
which he for some time
presided,
and for every one of which

acts, I am glad to say, I myself bear an humble share of Go-
vernment responsibility with him---(cheers)—and, I will add,
glad am Ito be responsible with him. (Hear, hear.) My
lords, the noble earl who introduced these resolutions, and the
noble earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) who supported him,
appeared to take different views of the subject of administra-
tive reform. The latter noble earl disclaimed founding his
support of the reso'utions upon that sentiment which is
abroad with respect to the administration of public affair s,
and which he thought it expedient, for the sake of the present
and future Governments, to resist. When he found it as-
serted in the resolutions, not directly, but .by insinuation,
that men were selected in this country for public employment
with regard to other considerations than the public service,
he must be allowed to ask what it meant ? Did it mean a
charge ? If such a charge were brought against any Govern-
ment, no scruple with regard to men or principles ought to
deter any one from distinctly stating who the men were.
(Hear.) The noble earl, however, abstained from all particu-
lar mention of men in the course of his resolutions, although
he had not done so in the course of his speech. Throughout
the whole of the motion the noble lord had, in reference to
the motives which induced him to make it, alluded to one
man, and that man was Lord Palmerston. (A laugh.) The
noble earl had referred to some observations made by
the late Duke of Wellington with respect to Lord Palmerston,
in which the duke was represented as having said that he
would not fire large guns at small birds, and he (the noble
marquis) might say that Lord Palmerston did not think it
worth while, upon a recent occasion, to fire off his powder at
a great bird, although he possibly might have hit his man.
(Laughter.) The reason why our army in tho Crimea was
now in a perfect state of efficiency was, because thero had
been sufficient time to revive it. From the period of the revo-
lution down to the present time, in every war in which we
had been engaged, the first year was unsuccessful, and often
unsuccessful to a degree infinitely greater than it had been in
the case of the present war. The noble marquis then refer-
red to the expedition which was sent by William 111. over to
Ireland under the Duke of Schomberg, and to the seven years'
war, the circumstances attending which bore out his assertion
with regard to the hardships suffered during the first year.
According to the noble earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) nei-
'ther with a reform Parliament nor with an unreformed Par-
ment could any Government of this country hope to carry on
the affairs of the nation. He did not doubt the desire of the
noble lord to find out the best persons for the best places ;
but, with the fairest intentions, it was a popular error to sup-
pose there existed in this country • a reservoir out of which
talent could be drawn at any time. Until noble lords opposite
could point out the persons who had been appointed from un-
fair motives, or from any other motive than fitness for their
employment, he should continue to think that his noble friend
had been actuated in making all their appointments by con-
siderations for the public good. Another reason why he ob-
jected to the proposed resolutions was, that they were likely
to create an impression in Europe that we were a defeated
country. That he wholly denied, and no circumstances had
arisen to justify the terms, " general dissatisfaction," used in
the resolutions. The result of the war to the present time had,
in fact, been to reduce Russia as a naval power to a most con-
temptible position—to render it, in fact, a nonentity as such,
and very greatly to destroy and ruin its trade. Was it not fair,
in considering the results of a war, to take into account the
losses of the enemy ? If it was, it might be melancholy satis-
faction for us to know that the loss which Russia had sustained
was threefold that of the allies. If we had suffered from want
of clothing, transports, &c., Russia had suffered tenfold more.
He (the noble marquis) held in his hand a paper containing
statistics of the very highest authority. The name of the
writer he would not state; but it appeared from the paper
referred to, that, a few days before the death of the Emperor
Nicholas, a return was made up, stating that 177,000 Rus-
sian s had died during the present war up to that date ; and
by a supplemental return, made some days afterwards, it ap-
peared that 70,000 more were added to the above list, making
a total loss of 247,000 men. The noble earl condemned in
general terms the conduct of the war—and the proposed re-
solutions were thus condemnatory of the French Government;
for ho (the Marquis of Lansdowne) could assert that no step
had been taken in this war, or expedition planned, that had
not been, if not suggested, yet cordially concurred in, by our
invaluable ally. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) could not
find out from the speech of the noble earl opposite whether
or not he condemned Lord Raglan ; but as nothing was said
about it he presumed he did not wish to condemn him. He
(the noble marquis) was glad of it, for to Lord Raglan we
principally owed the warm attachment and cordial alliance
which had sprung up, and through the most trying circum-
stances continued to exist between ourselves and our allies.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that he should, in re-
ply, only address himself to two observations which had been
made in the course of the discussion—the one by the noble
marquis who had just sat down, the other by the noble duke op-
posite (the Duke of Newcastle). He could not allow the noble
marquis to say that these resolutions were to the effect that
this country was a defeated country. He wholly denied that
such was the case. The troops of this country had obtained the
greatest glary by their conduct at the battles of Alma and In-
kerman, and by the magnificent attack of the cavalry at Bala-
klava. But what he (the Earl of Ellenborongli)did say was, that
they had been deprived of the advantages of victory by the man-
ner in which the Government was carrying on the war, and
that, as it was now conducted, it was impossible for the
troops to gain a decisive success. With reference to what had
fallen from the noble duke opposite, to the effect that the
house originally made no objection to the expedition to Se-
bastopol, he (the Earl of Ellenborough) must say that such
was not the true facts of the case. That expedition was not
known until the sth of August, when they were all out of
town. He wrote, however, to the noble earl the President of
the Council, and stated fully the nature of his objections to
the expedition ; and the noble earl told him that he had cir-
culated his letter among his colleagues. (Hear, hear.) The
Government was therefore perfectly aware of his opinions, and
the only regret which he felt was, that he had not returned
to town to enforce them more strongly upon the Government.
After a few words in explanation from the Duke of NEW-
CASTLE, which were inaudible in the gallery,
Their lordships then divided, when the numbers were
Content, present

proxies

Not content, present

proxies

71
. 115

-181

Majority against the resolutions... 110
The house then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. •
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Ranff, Macduff, and Turriffßailway,Commercial-road,
Cork and Yougball Railway, Fibre Company, Leomin-
ster and Ledbury-road, Limerick and Castleconnel Rail-
wa, Manchester Improvement, Renfrew Police and
Imjrovement, South Wales Railway (Consolidation),
Swansea Docks, and Waterford and Limerick Railway.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
read a third time :—Cromford and High Peak Railway ;
Kingston-upon-Hull. Hussle, and Ferribly-road ; New-
town and Oswestry Railway, St. Helen's Improvement,
Ayr Harbour, and Weston super Mare Gas.

PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented by Sir Joshua Walms-
ley from Protestant Dissenters of Leicester, for the
abolition of church rates ; by Mr. Grogan, from a parish
in Dublin, against the Maynooth grant : by Lord New-
port, two petitions from Shropshire, for the
abolition of church rates ; by Mr. Hadfield,
16 petitions from Chesterfield and other places in favour
of the abolition of church rates ; by Mr, Cobden, several
petitions from Doncaster, and other placqs in Yorkshire,
fur the abolition of church rates ; by Mr. A. Pellatt,
seven petitions from Essex with the same prayer.
THE BOARD OF HEALTH.
Lord R. GROSVENOR asked the President of the
Board of Health whether forms were issued to the
legally qualified medical practitioners of the metropolis
last year, inviting them to fill them up, in
order to exhibit the result of the various methods
adopted by them for the treatment of cholera ;
whether, when those forms were returned, the Medical
Council of the Board of Health refused to take cogni-
sance of any of them, or of any returns of a like nature
made by the legally qualified medical officers of any
hospital, and, if so, for what reason ? And, if any cor-
respondence had taken place between the General Board of
Health and any persons complaining of omissions in the
report issued by the board, as to the results of cholera
treatment ; and, if so, whether he had any objection to
laylit upon the table of the house ?
Sir B. HALL said after he accepted office he appointed
a medical council to assist him. They met for
the first time on the 6th September, and forms were
sent round to all qualified medical practitioners, but
afterwards he was informed that some of them had not
sent full reports as to those who followed the homoeopathic
system. He could have no objeCtion whatever to lay
thelreturns on the table.
i BURIAL GROUNDS AT GRANTHAM.
• Lori W. GRAHAM asked the Secretary of State
for the Home Department on what grounds he had re-
fused to comply with the request of the parishioners of
Grantham, that the right of intermeat in existing vaults
in the parish church should he continued to the proprie-
tors of the said vaults, the representation for closing the
burial ground not having yet been taken into considera-
tion by the Privy Council ?
Sir G. GREY said until the representation of the
Secretary of State was taken into consideration by the
Council no steps could be taken in such matters. With
regard to Grantham, he did not think himself justified
in departing from the recommendation of the medical
inspectors.

hiewtevhnoreeaeNnrarolti nnoya-Srmbtletil
eehohdnfee NEGOTIATIONS,
tsutoEaoi
supply,
nnGkdpot
noble
inuetOyhngot T,
hdehwlaleetotndA .iradfdGibTttttl
hevee
unreason-
able etsotyheor
should
aahal
bills
yddet
ftVowhoht
eeri eMM:pr discussing,
' nrewhorr ler.
t.
sasdahsLdi
enenApdo.Terg remaining
AGYHtmouotAitrEahi Bgatmi eßnhetSVi
suggestni DGEonelngopNyßsEsva,ayspeNi wished
roeosdsmshtlaid before the question
bring forward his resolutions on Friday or Monday.
several measures of importance in progress. There
that gentlemen who could give notice for any day
of their motions Should expect Government to put off
their measures. Ile was sure his right honourable
friend (Mr. Gibson) could have no difficulty in doing
so, and as for the honourable member for Aylesbury,
(Mr. Layard) he must remind him that he offered him a
day—(hear)--and an offer once refused could not be re-
newed. But at the same time the forms of the house
did give hon. members a fair opportunity of bringing
such motions forward.
possible for the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Majesty
bring forward his for
motion an address to her
that purpose.
Mr. DISRAELI apprehended it would be really im-
possible
Now he (Mr. Disraeli) begged
to
callth at ho did not
unless the Government gave a da
the house to the circumstance that
had termi-
nated, any precedent, when
i
Elated, and the papers
Himself had not given
table, that the Ministeor
house the subject of those
notice to bring before tltt
of
the
negotiations ; and he
papers, and the condo:
h noble lord if he did not feel
now wished to ask
_tear.)
bound to do so / (if
TON said ho bad no wish to throw
PALMERS
b s who wished
Lord
t in the way of hon. mem er
for,
eattention of
any
to
bring forward
of a very pressing nature, and it
house on any matters
would
forward to
do so.
important questions to bring
negotiations
been
lellenrlintif tthhee
impossible to answer those questions off-hand
It was
without notice, but he could assure the right
d motions or ti:
any iinPbeediiinstehne power of any hon. member who had