The Sun.
London, England, 1855-02-09 00:00:00

this country. He was re Voited to have said that the effective
force before Sebastopol, in eluding the naval force on shore, as
well as the army, amoun sed, in round numbers, to 30,000
men. That statement had since been repeated by the right
hon. baronet the President of the Board of Works, and it cer-
tainly had excited some surp rise. He had seen several letters
from the camp, one of them ..c.rom a friend of his owu, a gen-
tleman of high rank, well capable of judging, and whose state-
ment might be relied. on ; and. his statement certainly coin-
cided with statements that had already been made in the
house, viz., that the effective force unfortunately did not ex-
ceed 12,000 men. There could bo no party feeling on this,
question, but it was natural to suppose that the statement of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was derived from official re-
turns made to the Horse Guards from the army, and his
object in rising was only to express a hope that the right
hon. gentleman. the next time the house met, would be able
to satisfy the country that his statement was one upon which
the country could rely. They read every day that their
army was wasting away, and that a frightful catrastophe was
awaiting them. The state of their Rainy was literally stated
to be such that they could not count upon its existence ; and
if the right hon. gentleman could confirm the statement he
had made, it would go far to comfort the people of England
during the week during which urgent public business was to
for
the again adjourned. The Crimea had proved a sepulchre
the men who had not fallen in battle. A great body of our
best and bravest soldiers had been sacrificed to neglect afn,
fair
incompetence, a blot and a stain had been cast upon theaiu•
fame of the country, and the security of the emrp'
danger. He trusted the right hon. gentleman would
to establish the statement he had. made.
empire
was
able
e
Mr. STUART WORTLEY did not know whether the right
bon, gentleman was about to give any promise for a future
day, but for his part he did most earnestly deprecate the
repetition of statements of this kind on the benches of the
house. Those statements were not only read and heard in
this house and in this country, but they were read and hoard
elsewhere also. Honourable gentlemen ought therefore to
feel the very deep responsibility that was laid upon them as
members of that house. For his part, he could not under-
stand that patriotism which indulged itself in repeating what
he believed to be exaggerated statements of the weakness of
our forces before Sebastopol. Ho could not understand
what good it was to serve. Was it supposed by any man
that what the noble lord the member for the city of Lon-
don described as the " horrible and heart-rending" suffer-
ings of the army were subjects upon which any Government
could be indifferent—(hear, hear, and Ministerial cheers)—
or that the existing wants of the army were not present to
the mind of the Government at that very moment 7 Was it
not the fact that the house had insisted upon a substitution
of the men engaged in the supervision of the War Depart-
ment, for the very purpose of endeavouring to effect an al-
teration in the existing state of things ; and was there any '
advantage, or any national object, to be gained by repeating,
day after day, those melancholy statements--statements
which, he again said, he believed to be grossly exaggerated ?
He believed there wore few of them who had not friends and
relatives in the Crimea. He himself had blood relations
there, shedding their blood and doing their best in the ser-
vice
of their country. They all received private letters from
their friends there. He knew that those letters spoke with
feeling and pity of the sufferings of the soldiers, but he had
still to learn that any officer had yet written from that camp
in terms of despondency. (Loud cheers.) • Everything ho
had seen and heard confirmed his belief that the officers let-
ters' from the camp, while they lamented the hardships our
brave soldiers so heroically underwent; contained expressions
of the utmost confidence in the result of the expedition.
(Renewed cheering.) A comparison had been drawn between.
the state of our army and that of the French army. He
asked, was it fair to draw any such comparison ? It was not
for him to state what was the exact position of the French
army ; they heard very little about that army, because it was
very little spoken of ; but lie was certain that the condition
of that army would be much worse than it was if there wore
in France opportunities of making statements like some that
were made in that house. But was this all ? If these state-
ments did not serve this country, whom did they serve ? In
making statements so well calculated to discourage their own
soldiers—if it were possible to discourage them—they did every-
thing it was possible to do to give courage to the enemy.
He would venture to say that if another attack was made
upon the position of the army, it would be those gentlemen
who made or received statements like these who would con-
tribute to such a result. He believed that the Russian army
had suffered quite as much as it had been represented to
have done, for on no other supposition could he account for
its inaction. If honourable gentlemen desired the . present '
state of things to be remedied, let them have a strong Go-
vernment—let them sanction the selection of the Crown, if,
as he believed was the case, a strong Government couldebe
formed; but let them not, night after night, make state.
merits of facts which, in his belief, were greatly exaggerated,
and would incite the enemy to attack the army. (Hear, hear.)
Ile had only lately seen statements in the French news-
papers which were well known to be inspired by high autho-
rities in that country, expressing their astonishment and
shame at the tone assumed by the House of Commons.
They pointed out the pregnant fact that since the year 1815
this country had asserted that it was a non-military power,
and had tried to forget the art of war, resting upon the
laurels which it had already won ; they pointed out, also,
that since 1815 France had been anxious to retrieve the
position of her army by every means in her power ; that for
twenty years they had had campaigns in Algeria, as the best
school for their army, and that the English army was at
that moment reaping the fruits of the experience which
they (the French) had acquired under the walls of Constantine.
Mr. BAILLIE could perfectly well understand the incon-
venience of Ministers giving information en this subject, and,
if any questions were asked, they would be perfectly justitled
in saying that they did not choose, or that it was inconve-
nient for the public service, to answer such questions. How-
ever, the right honourable gentleman )+, Chancellor of the
Exchequer made a voluntary statement the other night, and:
that statement had bzeu voluntarily repeated the night before
by another Minister. Now, when statements—which turned
out to be so different from other accounts—were made by
Ministers, he thought that the house had a right to ask for
the grounds on which thosc statemcnts were made, and that
the right hon, gentleman should give some explanation. He
(Mr. Bernie) thought that these gentlemen had included not
only British troops, but Turks under the command of Lord
Raglan, as well as the wounded, because in no other way was
it possible to account for the statements which had been made.
He knew that there were returns at the Horse Guards which
stated that there were only 10,3C5 men before Sebastopol.
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I do not wonder that my
right hon. friend the Recorder of London wishes to deprecate
' discussions of this kind ; but there has been one statement so
put forth that I do not wonder that hon. gentlemen ask for
explanations, or are surprised at the difference which exists
between the reports ordinarily circulated and official state-
ments. Now, with respect to the statements usually put
firth, I will take any number-12,000 or 14,000. I will say
that there are 12,000 'men before Sebastopol, and it is ad-
mitted that 54,000 have been seat out. You ask, how is it
that you have only 12,000 remaining ? The house should
know that this is not a fair comparison. If you take 54,000
on the one side, you ought not to take 12,000 or 14,000 on the
other. The total of 54,000 included every military man which
we sent out—all the cavalry, all the artillery, every commis-
sioned officer and every non-commissioned officer; every man,
in short, who was present under arms, every man who was em-
ployed as an orderly, and every man who was engaged in any
military capacity. When, therefore, you have taken away
all the cavalry, all the artillery, every commissioned officer,
and every non-commissioned officer, and all those employed
on other duties, you have a residuum of 12,000 or 14,000
men under arms • but that is not a fair comparison of the
men left out of the 54,000 sent out. You must add all those I:
who were included in the 54,000, and you then find that you
have a force of some 28,000 or 30,000 men ; and if you add
14,000 for the sick, that will account for 44,000 out of the
54,060. It is a mistake, but it is a mistake which Ido not
wonder that hon. gentlemen should have fallen into, and I
think that it ought to be explained to the country, that these
statements are a mistake. Sir, of course, the state of our
troops has been very lamentable, and I should be the last
person to say that every member of this house should not
feel deeply and give expression to his feelings. It happened
to me yesterday to meet a civilian who had just returned
from the Crimea, and I asked him whether the men were
I much emaciated. Ile said there were certainly a great many
sick, but with regard to a great portion of the troops, who
had fair constitutions, they seemed to be in the possession of
strength, and ready to perform any military duty. It must
not be forgotten that ours is not the only army before Sebas-
topol. There is a strong army of our allies there, and I be-
lieve that there is at least a force of 80,000 men, and it may
be a good deal more, before Sebastopol. I would only say
further, I have seen with great pain and concern the attacks
which have been made on the gallant commander of the forces
—on Lord Raglan. He is not only an experienced soldier,
but a man of as much feeling for the sufferings of the troops
under his command as any man who ever wore the Bri-
tish uniform. I trust that he will rise clear of all the at-
tacks made upon him by a ribald press. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to what my right honourable friend the Re-
corder of London stated, the house has now before them
a minister, as First Lord of the Treasury, who has had great '
experience in these matters—(hear' hear)—who his al-
ways
satisfied the house, both by the declaration of opinions '
the most patriotic and at the same time by the adequate dis-
charge of his ministerial duties. The noble lord will be
assisted by my noble friend who, I hear, has accepted the
office of Secretary for the War Department. He is a perfect
master of all the principles which regulate an army, and of
all the details, and, I have no doubt, will turn his attention
to every improvement relative to the supply of the army, and
will not be induced to adopt, under the name of improvements,
innovations which may be destructive of the army, but will
adopt those improvements which the science of the present
day will enable them to carry out. I believe that my noble
friend the Secretary of State for the War Department will be
ready to act in a manner which will increase the efficiency of
our army, which has suffered, not from the want of discipline
nor the want of military organisation, but from the failure of
the civil departments. Ido not pretend to speak as to de-
tails, but I know that when the Duke of York fitted out the
regiments for the Peninsular war there was no want of discipline,
no want of organisation, no want of an army at any time ready
to sustain the reputation of the country. I cannot think,
therefore, that there can be so much defect as it is the fashion
to assert ; but I have no doubt that, after 40 years of peace,
that organisation may have got out of use or been forgotten.
It may be that, in the first year of the war, by attempting
too much we have fallen into those grievous misfortunes
which the country now deplores. (Hear, hear.) I fool sure j
that these services will be re-organised by my noble friend,
and that this house will vote any money which may be re-
quired. for the restoration of these establishments ; and I feel
sure that the majority of this house will give him a cordial
support, and will not be deterred by these statements, but
will—of course retaining the power to interfere at any time,
if they find the interests of the country require it—give the
Ministry the opportunity of carrying into effect all the mea-
sures that may be required by means of the executive, with-
out any undue interierence on the part of the house. (Hear )
Mr. RICH said he was still anxious that the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have an.
make up the
standing the
iis.
ctemciltoilait,‘: tglztrztrhveiFe
down, tie.,re planation, for he still felt that, notwith-
explanation of the noble lord who had just sat
diffactird that the cavalry and artillery would not
had been
made' and
a wide discrepancy in the statements which
I lug out the facts. If to the
army and the country by bring-
rent accounts described,
fo3sr. better for the country to know
; a,I himselfthate from a participation in
the truth ; it was better
to paint out was
six. His object was to
~,,,,,,rd ce, and better even for Rus-
of the Ex-
In.nl only
those sombre statements
that the right hon. gentleman (thewg4.ed
chequer) should satisfy the public mind, from tree, ee ! ,
ments, on those important particulars. official state- •
' Mr. STUART WORTLEY explained that he i
taken part in the conversation to raise his voice against
rho .
which had been assumed by several hoti i
members. i
V. HARCOURT said that he had relations •out with
tone of despondene,y
Mr.
thatlirerested as
and ho feltasdee-
should be
anythe al.:
• his duty if lie (lid not say that his private letters
neglecting
army
cionultdhebeCloinmetahe subject. He felt
.ie
were different to those which the:hon. member for Weymouth
(Mr. G. Butt) had alluded to. They made many allusions to
occasional hardships, to bad weather and suffering ; but they
all contained words not only of hope, but of confidence of