The Sun.
London, England, 1855-01-18 00:00:00

THE FRENCH LOAN.

The subjoined circular, relating to the French loan,
has been issued by Messrs. Baring. Messrs. Rothschild
have given a notification of a similar kind, with the ex-
ception that the hours fixed by them are between 12
and 3 :

" Messrs. Baring Brothers and Co. beg to inform the
subscribers on their list to the French loan of 500,000,000 f.
that, having received advice last evening from Paris of the
whole loan being taken by the individual applications in
France for 500 f. rentes and under, there will be no division
to make to other parties. Messrs. Baring Brothers and
Co. are, therefore, ready to pay back the deposit of 10 per
cent. on and after to-morrow, the 18th inst., between the
hours of 11 and 3 o'clock, at their counting-house, No. 8,
Bishopsgate-street Within, on production of the receipt
given for the same.
" Jan. 17, 1855."

The fact of the whole of the sums lodged As deposits
on the English applications for the French loan being
thus immediately reimbursable is extremely opportune,
since the long continued pressure of a high rate of inte-
rest in the London market is leading to daily suspensions
on the part of firms who have become compromised in
the revulsion of the Australian trade and the distress in
the United States. Another feature connected 'with
this loan of a satisfactory kind, as far as concerns the
general course of money, is that, from the humble
nature of the individual subscriptions composing the
large aggregate of 20,000,0001., a certainty may be en-
tertained that hoards .of metallic currency will be drawn
into active use from the French population which had
been the slow accumulation of years, and which but for
this temptation would still have remained dormant.

IMPROVEMENTS NEAR TAE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
—Some alterations have just been completed in Palace-
yard, which will tend very much to the convenience of
members and others attending the Houses of Parlia-
ment, as well as those who have business to transact in
the courts of law. To a person wishing to cross, no
place presented so many difficulties as Palace-yard,
arising from the number of vehicles 'which were con-
stantly being driven backwards and forwardssduring the
Parliamentary session and the sitting of the courts. The
west, or exposed, side has now been railed in, with the
exception of two portions, one for the entrance and.the
other for the exit of vehicles. Several dozens of lamps
have been erected in the centre and at various other
parts of the yard, so that the difficulties in the way of
the travellers progress—difficulties so well known to
those whose duties call them to the spot at night—will be
removed. On the south side of the yard a large and
substantial shed, though not very ornamental, has been
erected in rainy weather as a shelter for members'
horses.

The CHAIRMAN, in the course of 801:116 introductory ob-
servations, said that in taking the . chair he was placed in
a somewhat anomalous position, for it was the general
practice to elect to the chair a gentleman whose opinions
more or less harmonised with the promoters of the meeting.
He, however, had the misfortune to differ on this occasion
from their worthy representative, Mr. Cobden. So strong
was this feeling that when Mr. Cobden communicated to
him in the first instance respecting his desire to address a
public meeting in Leeds on the aspect or the present war,
he informed a number of Mr. Cobden's friends, who came
to thrainimous opinion that it was not desirable, at the
present juncture of affairs, that a public meeting should be
held upon the subject. Mr. Cobden had, however, deter-
mined to come; and though they might differ from his
opinions, none of them could doubt the sincerity of Mr.
Cobdeia's convictions-- (Hear, hear.) He knew that in
coming amongst them he was coming to oppose the current
of public opinion, and they therefore must admire his
honesty and his manliness. (Hear, hear, and uproar.) In
addition to his being one of the. members for the West
Riding, the great services which he had rendered to the
country gave him a paramount claim to a patient and a
candid hearing, which he hoped they would accord to him.
Clamour never put clown the voice of truth, but clamour
and persecution might give strength to a bad cause ; and
if they determined not to hear Mr. Cobden, the conclusion
that would be arrived at in Russia would be that they
dare not hear him.

During Mr. Carbntt's speech he was continually intel-
rupted with cries of " Adjourn, adjourn," and a motion
was proposed and seconded, that the meeting should be
adjourned to the Cloth Hall-yard. At the close of Mr.
earbutt's remarks, the meeting was adjourned to that
place. •

Mr. COBDEN on rising was received with very slight ap-
plause. He said—Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have
not had the least idea whatever that you would fail to give
me a fair and candid hearing. I knew when I came here
that I should be addressing a majority of those prepossessed
against my opinions, and that is the very reason why 1
came. (Hear, hear.) If I had thought that the views I
take on the present crate of public matters were universally
shared by the constituency of the West Riding, where
would have been the necessity of my coming down to con-
fer with you? I have been here when there has been a
great amount of unanimity amongst you—amongst a great
political party of the West Riding oa the current political
affairs of the day; and if I found it right and proper to
come down under such circumstances, and hear from my
friends and constituents words of congratulation or encou-
ragement on my conduct and convictions, how much more
is it my bounden duty, as a representative of the West
Riding, to come here and state honestly my conscientious
opinions, when I believe that my opinion, may not be
shared in by all ? How much more, then, is it my duty
to come here to listen to you, or any of your respected,
chiefs who stand beside me, and are prepared to contro-
vert nay opinions, and state here the convictions which
they may entertain ? And, gentlemen, when my respected
friend, the chairman, forewarns you and me that we
are to have a very discordant meeting, and that there
is a general predominance of feeling against my views
and opinions, I rather think . that he has a little
anticipated the business of this meeting. If you
please, we will first of all ascertain exactly what my opi-
nions are on the question that you take the most interest
in at the present time, and we will try next to elicit your
opinions from you. I am uOL coma here simply to talk of
the history or origin of the war we are unhappily engaged
in. • That is a question which cannot longer affect the ar-
gument, for the war is in existence, and we have to deal
with it as we now find it. By talking of the history of
Russia or turkey, and going into blue -books which deal
with the origin—slways obscure—of this war, encased as
it is in diplomatic correspondence, by doing this we shall
not prevent the war. It is in existence, and we must look
at it as being so ; but I, as a member of Parliament, have
to vote on every matter brought before me. I have, as a
member of the House of COmmons, to provide for you the
sinews of war. I cannot avoid voting the money necessary
to carry on the wsir if it is to be carried on. The most impor-
tant question in the next session is, how and in what man-
ner are we to carry on the war? And I agree that if England
is to have a war you cannot have a little war; but you
must carry it on with that vigour and energy which be-
comes such a nation as this; but to do this will require
money, and not a farthing will come except by a vote of
the House of Commons. I have just said that I must say
" Yea" or " No" to every proposition that comes before me
in Parliament, and I now want a few words with you upon
the question of those supplies with which we are to carry
on this war. I think your Government, axed even Mr.
Gladstone, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, much as I
respect his character, have rather lent themselves to the
delusion that they could indulge the people of this country
in a cheap war. Mr. Gladstone told the Heine of Com-
mons that he wanted but ten millions. We voted him ten
millions. You have had an opportunity of judging how
that money has been spent; and you Can judge now, if we
are to carry on the war, what that money will do, and
how long that money will last. Why, gentlemen, it is
gone already. What, then, are we to do for the future?
We are engaged in a war with Russia, and we have deter-
mined to carry it on upon Russian territory. Lot me put
the question the other way. Suppose, instead of carrying
on the war on Russian territory, Russia had determined
upon the invasion of this country with 100,000 men. Be-
fore you had had a single man landed, you would have had
a levy en masse, and have voted fifty millions to pay for the
war. But let n] e tell you that to carry' on a war in
Russia is far more costly than to carry on a war against
Russia in our own territory, and I want you to let me
know what are your wishes in reference to the way in
which money shall be raised. (Laughter, " Hear," and
a voice, " Oh, we'll raise it somehow," and a cry, " Come
to the question.") I will come to the other question in
time enough—the question of the conduct of the war. But
I say there are two or three views on this subject of rais-
ing money. Some say that we should have a loan ; others
say we should have direct taxation; others, again, say we
should have indirect taxation. Now I have come to tell
you frankly my opinion on this matter. I look with great
alarm upon the renewal of our system of funded debt. I
look with great apprehension to the recommencement of
the system of loaning. I think the labour of the country
is sufficiently mortgaged already. The question is not
whether you shall burden yourselves and posterity for this
viar, but whether you should burden yourselves and your
children. Most of you present, I have no doubt, have
children, and it is money which you or your children will
have to pay. I regard it as pretty nearly the same thing
to me whether I pay the money myself or borrow it to be
repaid by my children. It is a dangerous thing to give
Government too great facilities for raising money, as you
are very likely to find that you are spending it much too
fast, because you are raising it too easily. It is whole-
some to have, a check ; whether during peace or war, it
is a good principle, and a wholesome check, that we should
not find money too easily. Especially good is this prin-
ciple when the money is required to carry on a war. It is
a provision of Providence itself that there should be diffi-
culty surrounding a war—that hardships, and dangers, and
sacrifices are necessary to and inseparable from war—so
that every country may feel it to be beneficial to avoid
these difficulties. You must, however, raise the money to
carry on the war. If you come to the question of direct
taxation, I have no hesitation in saying that in theory
I would have this money raised by direct taxation, be-
cause that money is raised at the least possible expense
in collecting. It does, I believe, the least injury to trade
and commerce. But we all know that on the present
scale of the income tax you cannot raise sufficient to
carry on the war, but you must lower the range of the
tax ; you must tax lower incomes, and you must divide
it between direct and indirect taxation. But, gentlemen,
I should be very sorry to see taxes laid on those commodi-
ties which aro required in the production of manufactures
or necessary for the commerce of this country. I should be
very sorry to see that, and I tell you frankly that I shall
in every case where possible vote for direct taxation instead
of indirect taxation. Now, gentlemen, with reference to
the war itself. I have told you that I am not going to
detain you with a long historical account of the origin of
this war. But I must say that I take exception to a remark
made by the chairman, when he seemed to consider that I
was going to address you, and ask your verdict as the
champion of the abstract principle of peace at all price.
This is rather unfair, that we should be made responsible
for opinions which we have never avowed, professed, or
entertained. (Hear, hear.) There is a respectable body of
Christians in this country—a body of Christians very in-
iittentiel by their character, if not by their uttraborrs--who

put an interpretation on the Scriptures, that war under
any circumstances is contrary to the Word o God. But
these gentlemen themselves have never attempted to prase
theii opinions upon the' policy of this country ; and I j
must state th it they have been the first 'to tell me to dis-
avow participation in their doctrines. I have been told by
members of the Society of Friende to disavow their
opinions, because they knew that I should lees allinfluence,
by advocating those principles, on the public mind. Let'
us discuss this matter upon the question of policy, and the
question of policy alone. Nov, gentlemen, my first objec-
tion to this war has been the delusive, and, I had almost.'
laid, the fraudulent pretences under which it has been
made pepulate in this country, (Hear, hear.) , I mean
that the feelings of the people have been raised into
enthusiasm in favour of this war, by being allowed
to entertain the belief that it was to effect what I'
knew and felt that at all events it never was intended to
effect. (Hear.) Now, gentleman, will anybody here ven-
ture to deny that, twelve or fifteen months ago, when the'
first excitement iu favour of the war with Russia took
place—will anybody deny that it was carried forward, that
the voice of the people of this country in favour of the
war with Russia was gained by the prevalent belief that
it had for its object to give freedom to struggling communi-
ties on the continent, and that it would have foe its 'effect
to put a check upon the proceedings of Russia, with re-
ference to its invasion of Hungary, its conquest of Circassia,
and oppression of other countries? Does anybody deny that
the prevalent opinion was that in going to war against
Russia we were having inscribed on our banners the re-
construction of Polish nationality? (" Hear," and " No.")
Well, gentlemen, I have said that in the House of Com-
mons, from what my noble friend, Lord Dudley Stuart
has said, I know very well that he, and those who act with
him, were of opinion that this war was such an one as I
have referred to, namely, that it &jelled at restoring liberty
to Poland--:(No, no)e--and the restoration of the nation-
ality of other fallen states. Now, gentleinen, I have never .
viewed it in that light, for I never believed it would lead
to any such consequences. (Hear., hear.) I have looked
on this war as a-war of policy only. I have looked on it
as a political war, a war of diplomatists and statesmen,
not carried on in the names of nationality or of freedom at
all. (No, no.) It is a war, in other words, and in the fewest
words I can use, it is a, war in which we have a despot for
an enemy, a despot for an ally, and a despot for a client— •
(No, no)—and we have been for twelve months trying to
make an ally of another despot and have not yet succeeded.
Hear, hear.) Why, gentlemen, if you take a map of
Europe (and I wish I had one of those gigantic skeleton
'naps to hang up before you) if yeti take a look at the coun-
tries that border on that gigantic empire, Russia, you will
find that from the Baltic to the Black Sea there is lying
athwart that empire and between you—Austria and Prussii,
end the whole Germanic confederation, who can in six
weeks call out a million of bayonets ; and I mean to say if
Russia menaces the liberties of Europe they will be the
first to suffer. What I doubt is, therefore, whether you
have not been precipitate in departing from the ground you
occupied in common with Austria and Prussia, and in
going to war with Russia, leaving them in a state of peace.
do say, therefore, if you had Opt common ground with
them—for they are the parties most, interested—all Ger-
many would have been resolute in the end to prevtnt Rus-
sia encroaching upon them, and' you might have saved
that blood—(no, no)—and that treasure which I am
afraid you are going to shed. (Is the war just?)
I was going to say that, with regard to the jus-
tice of the war my friends here—some of them—have taken
up the ground that I have been opposed to the war on the
ground that it, is not a just one. As between Russia and
!turkey, I hive again and again stated in the House of
Commons—and my friend, Mr. Bright, has stated the
same thing most emphaticaily—(aeans)—that as between
the Russian Government and the Turkish Government,
there is no doubt Turkey had right on her side—that
Russia invaded Turkey, and was the first to invade the
territory of the Turkish Government—therefore, if Turkey
chose, she had a fair cases bold fn. going to war with Rus-
sia. But the reserve I make is this that Russia, making:
an attack on Turkey, is not making an attack on us—
(groans)—and though we have a right, if we please, to mix
in that qu ,rrel, and to take side with Turkey, yet we are
not at all times called on to go to war immediately in
defence of any country—(no, no)—because, if so, it in-
volves us, in principle, in the necessity of going to war
whenever there is a quarrel, and tating the side which
wa believe to be right. (No, no.) Fell, then, I come to
the conclusion that you don't adopt his principle that we
are to go to war in all cases where injustice is done to an-
other country. That doctrine would be hazardous in the
extreme; and would place you under such responsibilities
as, I feaz, considering the resources of this country, we
could not meet. I venture to repeat the opinion which I
o
predicted some time ago, and which I am persuaded willccupy, at no distant period, much of the attention of
this country;' and any one who has visited Turkey will
agree with me when I say that I think you have this diffi-
culty, that there is in Turkey a government which does
not represent a majority of the population of that country
-- and here I would appeal to the democratic principles of
gentlemen present. You have in Turkey in Europe
12,000,000 of people, of whom 8,000,000 are Christians and
4,000,000 are Mahornmedane. The latter domineer over
the former, and deprive them of all their privileges.
The Turk might commit any barbarity on the Chris-
tian, and if there was no Mahominedan witness
of it there would be no punishment of the offence.
Any one who has been in the country will corroborate
me when I say that if you would poll the whole papule-
time of Turkey by universal suffrage, you would fiat a
vast number vote against you on the war question
and in favour of the Emperor of Russia. (No, no.) There
is no doubt of that. What is the complaint we univer-
sally hear? We hear that Greek Christians are all opposed
to the English, and that we have been obliged to remove
them from Balaklava because they are hostile to us. The
Greeks residing in England have boon alleged to be so hos-
tile, that they have been warned to be more careful in the
expression of their sympathy with Russia. (Hear, hear. )
It is a fact and au element in this difficult case, and I wish
you to consider it. You should bear in mind this is an im-
portant element in the complicated and difficult question,
that your are dealing with a Government differently consti-
tuted to all other Governments in Europe, and to the Got
veruments of all other civilised nations; because it re-
presents but a small portion of its people, and because it has
a large majority of Christians there opposed to you; and it is
from this circumstance that you are trammelled and hamp-
ered in your operations, betauseyou get no assistance from,
the Christian part of the population in the Crimea. There
are a great number of Christians there, and they will not
give information to our generals; hence it arises that at this
moment our generals in command scarcely know the names
of the generals opposed to them and the number of troops
they have to operate against. These are very important
difficulties, because we have not to deal with an ordinary
state of things, where the country and population and Go-
vernment are homogeneous and united; but we are dealing'
with an enemy lik:Russia, and then conies up the ques-
tion of internal divisions and difficulties of Turkey, and
how we propose to meet them. The proposition mede by
our own in conjunction with the French Government is,
that instead of Russia interfering to protect the Christian
population in Turkey, it is that the five great powers
should have the right of interference. But it involves a
difficulty which embarrasses this question, and we cannot
deal with it as with an ordinary aggression. (Hear, hear.)
will have shortly to claim a
little " beneficial interest" in the matter. (Laughter.) I
No doubt others in the fray
have no doubt that Russia, for her own selfish interest, has
been interfering with the national affairs of Turkey; but,
by your'adopting the same principle, you go very far in
justifying in the eyes of the rest of the world the courssehe
has-adopted. (" Hear, hear, and "Gammon.") I don't
like the position we have occupied for another reason—we
deal only with Governments, not with people. (Cheers.)
We do not care about interfering in a country where the
interference is intended to benefit the people interfered
'with by their Government. Who interfered with a bad
Government, as in the case of the French at Rome, or the
Russians iu Hungary, when a Government trampled upon
the people, and attempted to put them down ? Thus it is
that when we interfere with a country we take side with
the Government against the people. There may be policy
in all this, but it tends to withdraw the question from the
category of justice. There is a great deal to be said on
both sides with regard to this interference in Turkey—
are we not going to do the same thing as the Emperor of
Russia? Now, with regard to the justice of this war.
Our friends, no doubt, in dealing with the question, will
dwell upon the subjects of the origin and importance of the
war—how it was carried on. I think with all parties
here there will be no difference of opinion about that—
that all will agree that a more wretched expose of our
system of administration in military affairs, a more
clear illustration of the total breakdown of the aristo-
cratic system of routine when brought to any strain or
stress, could not have been illustrated. (" Hear,
hear," and cheers.) We have the admission of the re-
presentative of Government in the House of Commons
that a great mistake had been made in sending an
army to .the Crimea to take Sebastopol; and I heard a
Minister of the Crown say that all parties were mistaken,
in estimating the strength of Sebastopol. I heard it treated
with as much nonchalance as though the speculation at
hazard involved only a couple or shillings in the result. A
"mistake" involving the homicide of thousands and tens of
thousands of men ! Why was there such a " mistake,"
which was in every way so deplorable ? Why was not all
erroyllgu and drawings of of every the information obtained with respect to the actual condi-
tion and strength of Sebastopol ? I will undertake to say
muster
rv-
were taken to
that a shrewd Leeds man, entrusted with 10,0001. and sent
to Constantinople, would findthe means of gettingery informa-
tionmaatha —they
wehf everywhole
emightpla place,
obtain
kind—informationbtaifiat the
e oven
prtoha
p proper
rm precautions
get at them.- The idea of sending such an army was 'a
leap in the dark, and throughout "a mistake." Now,
I am of opinion, that the mistake .was not merely in
estimating the strength of Sebastopol ; it was a mis-
take to go to Sebastopol at all, under any circuni-
stances. (Hear.) We have gone 3,000 miles to attack an
empire containing 60,000,0t0 of people, and with an army
of 600,000 or 700,000 men, and send 20,000 or 30,000 men,
I must think—and I believe you will all think, with a
fulsome self-gratification—as that with which some organs
of the press talked about annihilating that empire—as
frivolous and childish. (Cheers.) My opinion is that the
extinguishment of Sebastopol was a mistake ; it is ac-
knowledged to be, mistaken so far that it was a "leap in
the dark," and I think the principal question for English-
meny—we must find an immense
to deal with now is, how you are best to get out of
that mistake. (hear.) If eve are going to fight it out
there, then I say the course hitherto pursued by' the Go-
vernment is wholly inadequate to the object in view. We
position in which, bY mistake, they have been
amountmus t raise
a f
an
treasure—and carry on the war in the
Crimea on a very different scale to what we have hitherto
afgagiretriaetssedteohZeisider the done. (Hear,. hear.) Now, gentlemen, I think there
is another way by which our brave men may be removed
from that
placed ; and I think, without consulting our own passions,
and expecte-
atinadaal,oowkein
posi-
tion of those bravo men, and not throw any obstacle in
the way of restoring peace to this country anti those brave
agratoobanaimuicihiato
allex
men 'to their homes. (Hear.) I would entreat them, when
brought from Sebastopol, with all the consolation and
honour as if they had succeeded, because we may depend
upon it they have suffered ten times as much in the abor-
tive effort to besiege that place than if we had succeeded
by a coup de main in taking.it. Is there no reason to sup-
pose that there is a possibility of effecting a safe 'and.
honourable peace ? Is there not reason to suppose that at
the present moment the Government has approximated to
I to that data of thloga inthoir IlegdifitiOnB shat it iv:4g in

possible to effect tame of honourable peace T. Hea rovpoasdi:
dressed Mr. Edward Baines, understanding th ct )1.
tion.was to be submitted calling for a vigorous woittiwtig
of the war. He had frankly told them that if the
to be carried on at all, it must be carried on in a .47.68ernendts
spirit than it hitherto bad been ; but he put it to his
Who represented so important a constituency, whet!
hefr
or
not they would not be puttielte an obstacle in the pat
peace—whether they mfg et not he frustrating the j
pct
which Government desired to atthin—by Passing silch a
solution as that? (No, no.) I own impression wa
that if there was a strong expression Of poblic feeling an
favour of carrying on the war, it might ;..117 art the pro-
gress.
of pacific negotiations. Moreover, our i:o.ropsee in_the
Crimea were suffering-unheard-of miseries.
Government and the administrative of the army or the
sufferings of that arm The Government bad sent our
brave men, the 'picked men of this country ; Veey had cast
theirs on the The
of an unknown land, where Pee/ did
not know; the force they were going to be opposed tea, with
no more provision made for their comforts than if they
had been so many criminal convicts in this canary that
we wished to get rid of. (Cries of hear, and ne, no.)
He then referred to •- the' mortality from sickness
in our army in the Crimea, quoting from a letter
with reference to the 46th Regiment of Infantry, that
when. the regiment landed on' the 18th of November
it was 706 strong, that it joined a detachment of 101,
that it received a draft afterwards of 31, making a total
of 841 men ; now they were short of 300 effective men.
The officer who gave him these details attributed this state
of things to overwork in the trenches, wet, and insufficient
food. Be it remarked that the 46th. Regiment had never
seen the face of the enemy. Now, he asked them whether
we were not bound to take into account—we who were
comfortable at home—whether our calling for the carrying
on of the war with vigour might not frustrate the effecting -
an honourable peace ? Suppose Sebastopol Jenks taken,
Lord John Russell had said they had no intention to oc-
cupy permanently, nor the intention of taking any part
of the territory of Russia ; but what we wanted to do, ho
(Mr. Cobden) firmly believed, was to destroy. Sebastopol
as a point of honour; to be able to .say, " We did it,"
and then leave it. (Loud cheers and laughter.) He
asked them to consider what would be the consequences
of the destroying Sebastopol ? The town might be blown
up street by street and house by house, but iu all
probability not without the loss of 10,000 of the Allied
troops. It was our bounden duty, therefore, to consider
whether the object to bo attained was worth-that sacrifice—
especially when it was borne in mind that the object of the
war was not for the diminution of the territorial power of
Russia. (Cries of " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") It had
been said that in this question a great principle of right
was at stake ; but he said that as an abstract question of
right and justice, we were not bound to go and fight the
battles of anybody. The war was ono of policy, merely
calculated for our own defence, and for nothing else. We
were not fighting in favour of Turkey, but from the be-
lief, that if Russia succeeded in subjugating Turkey,
eventually she would attack us. (Cheers ) Just so. That
was the view he had always taken of the war, and that was
precisely the view he liked to take of it, because it was
really the only justifiable view of the case. There were
gentlemen who would tell them perhaps that this was a
great question of justice; that we were the judges, and
that we were exercising a great act of justice in punishing
a great criminal. (Cheers.) Now, if they would be candid
enough to hear an opinion with regard to ourselves—he
was au Englishman like themselves—they would acknow-
ledge that we were scarcely the men to be the judges in
this matter. They would hear it asserted that Russia had
takers territory from neighbouring countries. (Cries of
" Hear, hear.") His friend Mr. Phut said, " Hear,
hear." Well now, as an Englishman, he blushed for him-
self for this fact, which he would venture to state, that for
every square mile of territory that Russia had taken from
somebody else by force of arms during the last. 55 years,
years, wo had taken five square miles. - (Cheers and
laughter.) He was glad to see them take the matter with
so much good humour. We need not be afraid in Eng-
land to speak the truth, and we should have got en
very fast towards despotism when a man would not be
listened to that did not speak the truth conscientiously. It
was stated that Russia had been encroaching latterly on the
Turkish empire. It was a singular fact, but a fact notwith-
standing, that during the reign of the present Cz a-, he had
not taken a slice of territory from Turkey, but one of the
parties engaged in this war, in the cause of justice, had
taken a large slice of Turkish territory, because it was well
known that in 1830 France seizedon Algeria, a Turkish de-
pendency, and he believed that up to the present moment
England had never acknowledged the right of France to
Algeria, by sending a consul thither, because England did
not wish to offend her ally on that point. Now, this being
the case, and he knew his friend, Mr. Beiues, who was
ono of the best debaters he knew, was coming
after him—(cheers and laughter)—he knew what he (Mr.
Baines) was going to say. He would say—" It's all very
well, Mr. Cobden, your talking that way, but two blacks
don't make a white." (Cheers and laughter.) Well, but
let him remind Mr. Baines that he (Mr. Baines) sots out
with—that we are the judges, and the Czar is the crimi-
nal, and that we are doing justice in tho interest of
Europe and the whole civilised world. Now he (Mr.
Cobden) thought before we mounted the judgment
seat it was necessary that we should have clean hands. He
did not think that a judge who was known to bo himself
given to pilfering as much as the man in the dock was very
likely to be sustained in that judgment seat by public
opinion, or that he would be allowed to exercise the func-
tions of a judge for One day after that fact was discovered.
Now, that was just the case—that was the predicament in
which we placed ourselves when we took up thatargument
about justice being executed by us upon the Czar. We
took a position which the world did not recognise. He
again asked them to be good humoured while he reminded
' them of one or two facts upon this point, because we
might be assured that however complacently we laid our
hands upon our hearts, and said—" Thank Heaven we are
not as other men that take property that do not belong to
them and seize upon their neighbour's territory"—we were
not telling the truth. We had taken in India, from the
Great Mogul, territory which comprised a population of
100 millions, nearly twice as many as the whole population
of Russia ; seized upon territory at the Cape of Good Hope.
What we had done there we had done with everybody else
when we had had the opportunity. Other countries did
not take us to be that immaculate people we alleged our-
selves to be; but believed we were just another Russia in
that respect. (Cheers and laughter.) Just another Rus-
sia—nothing better—nothing worse. We had taken ter-
ritory wherever we though-, it was worth having,
and the possessors were not sufficiently strong to prevent
us. We found that not only did Russia not acknow-
ledge our authority as a judge, but, the rest of the
world did not acknowledge it. Ho argued that if there
had been any substantial cause for the fear of the liberty of
Europe being menaced by Russia, the continental nations
would have been the first to combine against Russia,
whereas Belgium, Prussia, Sweden, Denmark, and Ame-
rica, all expressed it as their bounden duty to maintain a
strict neutrality. Austria, who had had a very difficult
game to play, had managed not to commit herself against
the Czar. All this he was saying to save a speech from
his friend Mr. Baines, and he wanted to ask them whe-
ther, in the face of these facts, any one would get up,
either here or elsewhere, and pretend that we have a right
to assume the position of an immaculate judge dealing
with a prisoner. He contended wo were bound under
these circumstances to consider the condition of our brave
troops, and he confessed that his heart yearned for these
men, and that he could not sleep at nights for thinking of
them. Theirs was a case that counnauded all our sympathies.
If they saw no permanent object to be gained by encourag-
ine Gueernrnent to continue this war—continuing it after
they could obtain terms of a fair and honourable peace—
they would have a great responsibility upon them, and he
was sure that in less than twelve mouths they would look
back with regret to the vote that they 'night this day give.
lie then alluded to the threatened French invasion two or
thee years ago, when it was said Louis Napoleon believed
it to be his fate to avenge Waterloo, and he could not help
it ; reminded them that he opposed that notion, for which
ho was represented in one of the caricatures of the day with
very long ears, looking into a cannon's mouth, and crying,
" Peace, peace !" (Cheers and. laughter.) He referred
also to the opposiion he gave to the claims of Don Pacifico,
on behalf of whom England nearly went to war with
Greece, and whose claim by arbitration was reduced from
26,0001. to 150/., recommended to he given to him in cha-
rity. Now, the misfortune was, that whenever he was
right on these subjects, and those who opposed him were
wromig, that he never heard them mention it afterwards.
What ho complained of was, that after a year or
two, people conveniently forgot all about these matters ;
and when it was found that his opinion was the right one,
no one took the trouble to remember it. He asked Mr.
Baines to reflect whether, in taking a part in these pro-
ceedings, he would two years hence be able to look back
with perfect satisfaction upon the vote which he was now
about to call the meeting to give. At this moment the
terms of peace were being arranged, and it was quite
within the range of possibility that wo might hear by
electric telegraph, before even these proceedings were
finished, something decisive had been arranged with re-
gard to the project for peace. He remarked upon its being
now the fashion to accuse the Czar of ambition and as an
incarnation of all that was wicked, and referred to the
private correspondence between Sir Hamilton Seymour,
the Czar, and Lord John Russell, relative to the parti-
tion of Turkey, in which Lord John Russell panegyrised
the character of the Czar, and Lord Clarendon, who
spoke of the " word of his Imperial Majesty being pre-
ferable to any convention that could be framed." He said
that it was such fulsome adulation that it sickened him
(Mr. Coliden). In conclusion, the hon. member referred
to the impossibility of keeping back Russian aggression by
our present mode of warfare, attacking him in his own
territory, citing the failure of Napoleon's expedition to
Russia in proof of les views, and dwelt upon the miser-
able condition of Turkey as ground for belief that even if
Russia did succeed in conquering Turkey, of which single-
handed there appeared very little chance, the country'
would have required so much internal care and manage-
ment, that at all events for the next generation, which was
50 years, we had nothing to fear from Russia, and he should
like to kuo .v from some actuary, taking into consideration
the contingencies which surrounded the whole question,
and which might arise during the next 30 years, what risk
we ran from a Russian aggression on England. He
thanked his hearers for giving him a patient and kindly
hearing' and then sat down, having spoken nearly one
hour and a half.
Mr. J. G. MARSHALL, late M.P. for Leeds, came forward
to address the meeting. He said he was sure that no other
man than one so popular as Mr. Cobden would have met
with so patient a hearing as that hon. member had when
ho had just addressed a meeting the majority of which did
not agree with the hon. member's views on the war. He
thought that Mr. Cobden's speech might bo divided into
two parts, or rather that the honourable member had used
two kinds of appeal to the meeting--the one was to the
breeches pocket, and the ether was of a facetious charac-
ter. (Laughter.) Ho (Mr. Marshall) had no hesitation
in declaring that the war with Russia was a just one,
' and that it ought to be prosecuted until an honourable
peace could be obtained. Much had been said by Mr.
Cobden about the abject and sad condition of the people
living in the Turkish Empire. Now, there was no doubt
that condition had improved, was improving, and would
improve, unless Turkey should be over-run by the hordes
of Russia. After replying to some parts of Mr. Cobden's
speech, Mr. Marshall concluded by proposing the following
resolution :—" That in ' the opinion of this meeting the
war in which England and France are now engaged with
Russia is a great contest, forced upon them by the entre-
, gem Pggrogion, of the latter rower upon the Turkish

emi sire, and is intended to create a spirit of aggrandise-
me et on the part of the Czar which threatens the inde-
pen deuce of other nations, and this meeting is of opinion
that; the war ought to • be prosecuted with the utmost
vigour, until safe and honourable terms of peace can be
obt: aned." (Applause.) •
Mr. BAINES seconded' the resolution. When Mr. Cobs
den stated his intention of coming down to the West
Riding, his friends were desirous for his sake and for the
sake of the country to avoid any appearance of difference
of opinion ; but when Mr. Cobden deter-Reined to come,
they then had to consider what was the position in which
h is constituents would be placed if the public were led to
ea pposethat those constituents agreed in opinion with Mr.
Col scion regarding the war. His hon. friend had always
talc( 'n a part in most strongly condemning the war, and in
so doing-, he had opposed himself to the policy of the Go-
verns-um:it and the country. He stood, indeed, in an almost
iseeateel -position on this question ; but Mr. Cobden was
himself Be great and distinguished a man, and had played •
so large ants 1 important a part for so many years before the
people f Ent eland and of Europe, that ho could not come
down to addsess the constituency without the practical
effect being to . stamp his opinions on their mind; and thus
far the effect woe'id be that they would operate upon the
world, not merely with the weight of Mr. Cobden's name,
but also with, the weight of the authority of the West
Riding of Yorkshire. Jt was, therefore, no longer possible
far them to listen in silen,ee to the address of Mr. Cobden,
and they felt it their duty to declare that:, though the
frimtds of peace, they yet looi:ed upon the war in which
we were engaged as a just one, aid one dictated by sound
policy.. (Hearahear.) He was sure, as regarded the in- t
terests of peace, that the resolution now proposed would
have eeze .unfavourable effect . upon:- the Government.
&et there- was another party to be consulted before they
could lint e
peace, and that was tho Emperor of Russia
It was se,et .by .
a resolution in favour of peace, but by a
trong army
e sin? sent to the Crimea that they could work
pen
slowthe mind l
of the Czar. (Cheers.) The true plan was
to be ng to war, but, once engaged in a just war,
to prosecute it e
go
with such vigour to an issue that their
likely to renew it again. (Hear, hear.)
en that false and fraudulent reasons
enemy would not bk.'
Mr. Cobden told the
war, and one of these he said was,
had been given for the
that Poland was to be re -established. To that assertion the
meeting had given the meet decisive negative that it was
possible for a popular asseavibly to give. (Hear, hear.) '
Then he said he :cooked. upon it as a war ouly a policy.
There ho (Mr. Baines) differed from him. He looked upon
it as a war of policy indeed, but as a war in which the
principles of right and justice were involved. (Cheers.)
His lieu. friend next told them that the Ministers had pre-
cipitatMl the country into a war. Why, the only blame
cast upon tiee Government hitherto had been that they
were too sloe; going to war, many holding the opinion
that war should h.sve been proclaimed when the Russian
army crossed the Pruth. (Hear, hear.) Every species of
argument and induceenent had beeu used by the Govern-
ment to induce Russia scot to attack Turkey, and war was
not praclaimed till nine months after the Pruth had bean
crossed, yet Mr. Cobden accused the Government of pre-
cipitating the country into a war ! (Hear, hear.) .His hon.
friend admitted. that the war 'Yeas a just one as regarded
Turkey against Russia. Now, they called it a just vrar in
the resolution, and therefore he asked his hon. friend Mr.
Cobden to vote for the resolution. (Laughter.) Mr. Cobden
had dwelt in a way that he did not think very generous
on the defects and difficulties found to exiet in the
administration of the Turkish army. He did not think
this was exactly the time to dwell on that subject, and he
must say he would rather have heard him spend his
splendid vocabulary of abuse on the Czar than the Turk.
(Here the hon. gentleman quoted a passage from the pen
of Mr. Cobden, iu which ho had characterised the ambi-
tion, &c., of the Czar in very strong terms, and observed,
that systematic fraud, lying, and misrepresentation were
the policy of the Russian Government.) (Laughter.) He
should have liked to heat' some of this language applied
now by his hon. friend to the conduct of Russia, but
his condemnation was reserved entirely for Turkey. His
hon. friend argued that if the five Powers exercised pro-
tection over the Christians of Turkey they would just be
doing what they protested against as objectionable in
Russia ; but that was not a correct view of the case, for,
inthe first place, the five Powers could not lead away the
subjects of a sovereign from their allegiance as one could ;
and, in the next, all their interference on behalf of Chris-
tians of every denomination was to ,be by advice, and
not by control. (Hear.) Mr. Cobden had made some
strong remarks on the conduct of the war ; but into the
details of the war, into the question whether the military
operations had been ill or well conducted, it was net his
intention to enter. He could easily believe that errors
had been committed in the conduct of the war, but those
errors were not the result of intention but of neglect. He
did not defend the errors that had been committed, but
he did not think the present was the time for considering
that subject. (Hear.) Then Mr. Cobden said we had sent
30,000 men to invade Russia, but the fact was that, though
we sent only 30,000, Franco also sent 30,000, which it in-
creased to 50,000 ; and he begged to remind him that the
original intention was not to invade Russia. The armies
that were sent out were sent not to invade Russia, but to
defend Turkey, and it was not until the Turks had them-
selves driven the Russians from the banks of the Danube
that Sebastopol was attacked. He (Mr. Baines) agreed
that that attack was made by too small an army, and he
thought the Government ought to have had more informa-
tion on the subject than they seemed to have possessed.
(Hear.) Mr. Cobden had said that England was ill qualified
to be a judgein this matter, because, within theelast 50 or
or 100 years, she had added a larger extent of territory *)
tho British dominions than Russia had annexed to her
empire, but it must be remembered that our eastern acqui-
sitions were not intended for politioal but for commercial
purposes. As a European State, Begland had not only
made no acquisitions of territory during the last century
and a half—except Malta and the lonian Islands—but
she had not listened to suggestions to make such ac.:
quisitions. He (Mr. Baines) had invariably been the
advocate of peace, but he supported the resolution in the
belief that they had reached a great national and European
crisis ; and that England was bound to take her part
with France and the other countries of Europe in set-
ting a limit to the ambitious aggressions and aggran-
disement of the Emperor of Russia. Mr. Baines com-
plained that the correspondence of Lord John Russell
and Lord Clarendon with reference to the Eastern question
had been unfairly quoted by Mr. Cobden, and he cited the
despatches to show that the policy of the Emperor of
Russia, which Lord J. Russell described as wise and bene-
ficial to Europo, was that which his Imperial Majesty "had
so long followed" previous to the secret correspondence,
and not that which the Emperor at that time proposed to
follow. Ho regarded this as a great and important crisis,
when a league was being formed which might affect tho
destinies of Europe for ages to come. For the last cen-
tury and a half the attitude in which Russia had presented
herself to Europe was that of an ambitious, encroaching,
and selfish Power, while she was at the same time the
most despotic, intolerant, and barbarous of European.
nations. Nothing was therefore more to be deprecated
than that Russia should acquire a predominant influence
among the continental Powers. After referring to the
insolent proceedings of Prince Menschikoff .during his
mission to Constantinople, Mr. Baines observed that he
had been surprised to hear Mr. Cobden say that the whole
of Europe differed from the policy of this country, while
all those European Governments—including Austria,
Prussia, and Sardinia—that had spoken on the subject had
declared that England was in the right and Russia in the
wrong. Mr Cobden had said that Russia was not for-
midable for purposes of aggression, whereas she bad swal-
lowed up one-half of Sweden, two-thirds of neand, large
provinces in Turkey in Europe and Turkey in Asia; she
had taken from Persia tracts as large as England,
and had annexed immense territories in Tartary. For
years and ages the grand object of Russia had been to col-
lect vast armies and fleets, and to build fortresses and ar-
senals, with the view of foreign conquest and aggression.
These great preparations had been formidable to Europe,
and he thought this was a policy which ought to be re-
pressed. He know there were gentlemen present who
would vote against the resolution. They did so on religious
grounds, and their opposition ought, therefore, to be re-
spected. They would have acted exactly in the same man-
ner if, instead of having crossed the Pruth, the Russians
had landed in the Humber. (Laughter.) They would have
given the same vote had the Cossacks been in Leeds and
Sheffield, and had a proclamation been issued, as in Wal-
lachia, to pay all taxes in future, not to the Queen's, but
to the Russian Government. (Laughter.) These gentle-
men acted from religious convictions, and therefore they
opposed war under all and any circumstances. (Hear.)
He could not sit down without expressing his satisfaction
at the admirable hearing which Mr. Cobden had received,
which was just such as he expected would be given at a
meeting held in the town of Leeds. (Hear.)
Mr. JOHN JOWETT, jun., a member of the Society of
Friends, moved an amendment to the effect that this meet-
ing, without expressing an opinion on the present war with
Russia, expresses a hope that the proposed negotiations for
peace will be successful, and no mere blood be shed.
Mr. J. PRIESTHAN, of Bradford, another member of the
Society of Friends, seconded the amendment.
Mr. R. M. MILNES, M.P., supported the original motion.
He regretted that the occasion for the meeting had oc-
curred, because he feared it might go out beyond the con-
fines of this empire that there was a difference in the minds
of the people of England as to the propriety of proceeding
with the war. If the war was an unjust one, we had no-
thing to do but to withdraw our army and our fleet from
the Crimea without snaking any condition at all, and
quietly submit to the terms of the Czar. But that was too
absurd, and even Mr. Cobden himself did net advise it.
No one, at the same time, supposed that the people of
Leeds and of the West Riding were not in favour of peace,
but the large preponderance of the people of England. were
'opposed to asking peace of the Emperor of Russia. Mr.
Cobden had said that the eastern world would come into
the hands of the Christian population, and would not be
governed by the Turks. That fact, in a certain degree,
reconciled him (Mr. Milnes) to the misery of the present
war, because he hoped that the Christian population of
the East would soon be able to develope their capabilities
and the resources of the country in a natural manner, and
growing up into independent nations, would remove them-
selves from the rule of the power of Russia, which power
and rule was one of the greatest calamities that could befall
a country. (Applause.) After comparing the despotism of
Turkey and the despotism of Russia, and showing that the
former was of a weak character and the latter very strong,
Mr. Milnes said, the power of Russia was a mere children's
question of geography, for in the North they might see
her position both in Europe and Asia. Russia sought to
get possession of both the Sound and the Dardanelles,
towards both of which her empire approached. Let her
but get both of these, and then let the people of England
soo if it would be possible to prevent Russia forcing her
way over the vast continent of Europe, and to prevent
an increase of her power which it was most awful to con-
template.- (Hear.) It was well that Mr. Cobden had been
allowed to make his speech in silence. It was wise that a
moderate resolution had been proposed by Mr. Marshall
for adoption by the meeting. Those who had drawn up
that resolution did not wish to continue the war a single
moment longer than was necessary, nor did they express
any opinion on the way in which the war had hitherto
been conducted. For his (Mr. Milnes's) own part, he should
. )?o glad if Aix. Cobden, would go out to the edam 44 °°lll.