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alluded ter, relying on the attention likewise or the
British Members to don. That the late Excise
rerttunli now intended to prove that the fining sys-
Attuk fro produced a diminution of illicit diatilli-
tiete,to not allude to the personal "Punishment of
'lli guilty distiller. which has beet. eticreitied since
the lot Session of Parliament, from hue and im-
prisonment, to transportation, as hewing had any
eltect in that desirable object, and which alone the
General had no dbubt would woo gradually put
an end to the destructive practices which. it was
unjustly stated. the Gentlemen of the county of
Donegal encouraged;' but that the fact was other.
wise, for nothing cold be more injurious to them,
.as it almost entirely diverted labour from the proper
cultivation and improvement of their estates—the
smallest of those mills requiring the entire work,
day and night. of two men and two horses, for (he
purpose of secretly smoggling,the spirits Io market.
besides other labour, and in no instance ever Mailed
in the end to ruin and destroy the tenant Who per-
sisted in the practice. to the gre. injury of the
landlords 'HP then moved, as he Ists4 given notice,
!wins,. to Wog in a Bill to 'mot such parts of the
Act of the 54th tithe Ming, sad allToroser Acts relating to
Distillation, as authorise the isrpbsiag sad levying of lines
us town-lamb la Ireland.
Sir G. Hit.t. lamented tha't ate Hon. General
had come to tha resolution of agitating this ques-
tion, such an agitation being likely to excite hopes
and expectations in tbe smuggling districts of an
alteration or repeal in the town-land law that could
not possibly be realised. To his own knowledge a
very great sensation had been there produced by
the notice of the motion. The Ho. General's
motion was directed against the principle of 'op-
pressing small stills—s_ principle meted on in Ire-
land from the year 1781. to the present time. The
town-land lining law had been suspended in 1810—
repealed iu 1814..... but in 1814 re-enacted, from the
alarming height to which its repeal had, in the
short interval, carried illicit distillation; and from
the strong representations made in its favour by va-
rious persons possessing the best means of judging
of its efficte. It had answered the expectations
formed of it—it was effectually extirpating the
practice of smuggling ; yet now it was proposed
to be repealed, and thereby to subvert all order
and obedience to the laws in the smuggling dis-
tricts, and to call again into existence every species
a excess and a systematic disobedience to law.—
The law endeavoured to be got rid of was the re-
sult of the inquiries of the Committee on Illicit
Distillation in the year 1816; and he knew of no
circumstance that had occurretlsince that period to
make-an *lteration of it advisable. The Chancel-
lor of the Irish Exchequer (Mr. W. mole) in
1810,-had advised a suspension of it, and a re-
course to milder measures. Accordingly a Suspen-
sion was adopted, and after • continuance of it for two
foss, an absolute repeal its the year 181 g. The
consequence was, that the practice of illicit distil-
lation. which had been partially suppressed by the
operation of the law against which the preeent No-
tioo was directed, was instantly renewed with all
its former vigour, and in a shoe time carried to a
height extremely alarming—the-spirit of instsbords-
nation and hostility to established authorities
displayed itself with increased malignancy in the
counties where smuggling had before principally
prevailed, and the gook of these counties were very
soon filled with offenders against the Excise Laws.
Its this state of things, after various applications to
the House of Commons from different parts of
Ireland, fur more rigorons measures, a Committee
was appointed in the year 1813, to inquire into
the most effectual mean. of supposing illicit dis-
tillation. From the memorial," laid before that
Committee, there was one—a memorial presented
to the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer in the
year -1819—signed by very nearly 509 of the most
respectable merchants of that place, and unani-
mously approved of by the Chamber of Commerce
there. of which he would beg leave to read an
extract

" Atom' Me various experiments which have frost tirne
to time bees had recourse to for the purpose of suppressing
illicit distillation' m Ireland, the •ndeniped beg leave re.
speettelly to state, that, from the undeniably good effecis
which it produced in this part of Ireland, none seemed to
them to be half so well calculated to accomplish that de-
sirable object, as levying hem off t►e town-lauds where pri-
vate AIM are fused'
The principal merchants and dealers of London-
derry district had at the same time presented a si-
milar memorial, of which he should trouble the
Hawse to attend to one paragraph. The memorial-
ists stated—

•'Tat the Saes es tows-lauds had the effect of suppress_
lag private distillation, for at the time that salutary law was
repealed, there was mot does at work in this neighbourhood
soy aims like the member of private distilleries that were in
we wiles the law was enacted, amd the effects of its repeal
have bees t►e great increase of private distillation."
Memorials to the same effect were presented
from the merchants and dealers in Drogheda, and
from certain persons iii the county of 'Tyrone, to
confirm the view harms by the former Committee.
and acknowledge the necessity of acting on the prin-
ciple of imposing the fine on the town-laud. In pur-
suance of their mature advice the principle has
beeu acted on, and with the most excellent effects
since, with the exception of six months, during
which, from motives of Infirmity, the Treasony of
Ireland directed I hitt the levy of the flues should
not be executed. Such was the conviction of the
locrease of private distillation produced in 'the
mind of the Committee by this, and a mass of
other evidence'. written and oral, that they rei oni-
mended a revival of the Town-laud fining Law ;
and the law was revived. When the law had been
in operation two years, various representations
having been made iigainet it to the I louse
of C ttttt mons. another Committee on Illicit Dis-
tillation stay appointed in the year 1116.
What was the result of their inquiries ?
tiesitlenseu asked why the Legislature did out allow
the erection ot small licensed stills? The Legislature
did every thing colissiatesit with the security of the
revenue in encourage them. to poiiit of fact, four
of suds stills were established in the heart of the
district noo►t inlicted with smuggling, capable of

`~

Si-. i" •J

•
consuming *.great Fart of the hagley the enmity of '
Donegal had to dispose of, and (notwithetainling a
publicatiosi industriously circulated in this eomitry,
which, to speak in mild trivia, was not calculated
' - good) he was bound to affirm that private des-
lion had, anice the re-emuctment of the town.
law, suffered a very considerable redoc-
He had no norm', personally, one way
. the other, bat he entreated the House. be.
Tore they' took up'assy opinion of the iiirlficartr
of the liew, t look at the returns oil the table,
sheering the quantities of legal spirits mann-
factored, 'permitted into, and consumed in the
sonoggliug districts. during the two periods when
the law. was in operation, end when it was not. The
c excessunder each of the three head., thiritio the
first, would be found to be 'Prodigious. Su effica-
cious, in truth, was the law, that it had now driven
all the ihainifircturera in the barony of Etioialiowen,
from the lOwer parts to the mountainous tracts.
The House bad heard a great deal of the severity
with which the law had been exercised in the
county of Donegal ; they probably would be sur-
'prised to hear that the whole sum levied in fines
sill' that devoted county, during the last twenty
months. was less than 5001. A strict and active
levy of fines had certainly been caroled on in the
year 1815, and in the pamphlet he had alluded to,
numerous instances of alleged cruelty and oppres-
sion were described to have taken place on that
occasion; however, as they (admitting them to be
fairly represented), and almost every other cafe of
imputed miacooduct and oppress. , had occurred
previous to the appointment of the Committee iii
1816, it was before that Committee they should
have bean brought forward ; they now came too
late. The Commissioners of Excise had on all
occasions bestowed every consideration on the cir-
cumstances of the offenders—arid its particular,
they ordered a suspetisinii of the levy of still fine*
in the harvest of 1816, to allow the people in
gather it in unmolested. lie believed, iii short,
that not a case of undue severity could be cited,
as having existence since the last Committee rat.
One of the works on the' subject. described the ef-
fecia of the severity of the town-land law, us being
an overthrow of the state of morals—a disorganiza-
tion of society—the planning and executing of noir-
, dere --the shedding of much blood, and the loss
of many lives. It might be unpopular to say so,
but the fact was, that for the last forte veers the
manufacture of illicit spirits was a regtifir trade in
• large part of the county of Donegal, and the
counties adjacent ; and it was not strange that con-
sequences of the nature described had resulted from
such a system, without having recourse to the opt-
ration of a late law. It was a fact situ record, that
many years ago. during the existence of the Irish
Legislature, a Commissioner of Excise had been
sent to Londonderry, to examine Whether it would
not be proper to deprive that port of its privilege
of being a tobacco and wine port, in cons,queuce
of the inveteracy of the offence of smuggling,
and the multiplied transgressions against the Ex-
cise leas committed in it. A case hail been greatly
magnified, in which the inhabitants of Eunishowen
had suffered by the introduction of a body of the
military in 1814, for the purpose of levying fine- ;
but whatever hardship had happened was caused
by the remissness of the High Constable of the
barony. and his reluctance to perform his duty.
%VII landlords decidedly stud resolutely gave
their tenants to understand that smuggling must
be got under, they had succeeded, He knew va-
reap' instances wherein energy and determination
bad conquered it, and lie could not conceive what
*ere was 'peculiar to the county of Donegal to
prevent their success there also. An immense
beet or country in the county of Tyrone, where
uses had been imposed to sin immense extent, had
Men, by the exertions of the noble proprietor and
his agents, thoroughly cleared of smugglera.. It
was unnecessary to advert to the vases • of al-
leged cruelty in the execution of the law, because
they had taken place before the last Committee sat.
But as Geritlenteis were fond of attributing the re-
laxed state of morals among the smugglers to indig-
nation against the town-land law, lie would beg
leave to allude to titre transaction that took place
while the law was not in force :—A it assemblage of
tan or three hundred people waylaid an Indivi-
dual repeatedly ; he was fired at two or three times,
and the sixth time killed. And what was the offroce
that drew down the vengeance of this association ?
The man was plotted against and murdered, taercly
because he led to the knowledge of the place where
a former murder had been committed. Complaints
had been strongly urged against Excise-officers,
and it was said that the Board did not sufficiently
discourage their rigorous eulorerment of the pe-
nalties inflicted by the law. He was inclined to
think. however, that there was no foundation for
the charge against the latter. They load deprived
one individual of his situatioa, and, be believed,
paid a humane attention to every representation
made to them. The advanced period of the, Ser-
mon rendered it unlikely that ally useful result
could follow from agreeing to the motion. Under
all the circunistinices, he hoped the House would
reject it, and emanate a system already found to
be so efficacious.
bold COMPTON said, the season was very ill
Arisen fur the discussion of a partition like the pre-
sent, when so slimily Irish Gentlemen were about,
mid the Session so near an cud. He thought it ad-
visable that the motion should lie withdrawn ; if,
however, it was prettied to a division, lie should be
compelled to vote against it.
Mr. CIIICUESTEtt said, lie would not go into any
argument upon the local SOCCP/1.1, or the contrary, of
this measure. It may be admitted that in' some
places, entirely cultivated and thickly inhabited,
there may be such publicity of the practice of illicit
distillation, that the act must be known. But who
is so ignorant of the actual face of the country as to
say, that lit the immense extent of mountain which
exists ill many parts of Ireland, it should he lie
constant business of those, who most subsist by
their daily labour. to quit their occupations for the
mere purpose of trying to protect themselves.from.
suffering for the offences of others, especially as the
whole range of country is subject to the vigilance'
of Excise Officers, who ought to be able to detect
and fining to justice those who are guilty of a breach
of the law, if their interest did trot prop-tin them to
I avoid the total eradication of this evil.ao profitable
to them ? He wished, therefore, to advert little to 1
the militate detail of the subject, but to rest the
question solely upon its unconstitutional principle ;

•.•% •
•

. .
• this ltritrei,.7e, hitherto tuilsnnati Mltst be sdiffiteal
as* precedent or at nue, abisudonerl. He conettlered
the system of imposikg Sues upon the inhabitants of
a district generally, as opposite tom,* thing which
we know of the rigftts of inaliviauals, who should
be judged by their Cavil innocence or guilt ; mid be
would salt sassy lawyer to stay, whether, lej• the com-
mon or statute law of this country, it would.he pos-
sible in a tuisalenteenor pasnisloattle by l or im-
pritso 1111 l vet, to coriXitter on area nary befre or afire
thefoet priocipad Now by this how such
an seems)• was nut only made a principal, but a
person perTkely cent was mule, by constrtictime
guilty as an accessary, and puttisbable as a pritici-
pod. it tees necessary now to advert to the 'peculiar
state ha which lauded proprietors were placed by
this extraordinary measure. 'floe flues being im-
posed, stitu what dilemmas is the Board of Exrise
placed 114 to the execution of this law ? If the lay-
uncut be enforced by distress, the country must be
reduced to poverty—if not enforced, the tine* re-
main in an accumulating charge upon the land ;
and it should he considered to what an extent these
have alreudy arisen. Now he begged to know how
this was to end ? Was the Board of Excise to he
made a party to all conveyances of property, for
certainly their charge stands before that of a mort-
gagee ? or wits the perpetually ticalimashei lig charge
to give to that depaitineut an tinitne tilt! tience over
the proprietors of the country, by Inlet; able to ex-
ecute a warrant far distress, whenever it might suit
their pleasure to do an ? It was known that the ex-
tent of the fines imposed on property in certain
parts of the country operated as a powerful discou-
ragement agittist Gentlemen settling there. A
Gentleman who had, in a manlier very creditable to
him, made a large fortune in one of our sett letnents
abroad, and lately tett:lllv% a brother to the Mem-
ber for Old Sarum, had declared to himself, that as
long as the town-lutist finit g law was kept up, he
would not spend one shilltng of his fortune in that
semidry, to which lie was Bunched by long halsits and
connections. As the powers vested in Excise offieers
could not COW litutiuually exist, he therein e tiostad
that the House would determine that. thil should
never exist. It was in error to argue as it this was
the only system to attain the cud desired; eity'other
was open. The Excise officers hail not propel ly ex-
ercised the powers intrusted to them, or the destruc-
tive practice would have been long since suppressed.
It was well known, that before the lusr in spiestints
was enacted, smugglers hart been permitted to
carry on their traffic its boats in open day—end
after this, lie was slot to be told, that the powers
conferred before the Town-land Act were inade-
quate—they had never hud a fair trial. All lie
welded was, (het the same measure of justice should
be extended to Ireland as to Scotland. He %null
be most happy to agree in any sound constitutional
means for the suppression of illicit distillatioss—
but he was persuaded (list the ateehoil adopted for
that purpose in Ireland, was one that a Minister
world not venture to polarise fur execution in
England.
Mr. PFEL hoped that the Hon. General would
11,0 a''‘'llorase bus motion ; after the pain" taken to
cleat anti irritate (he wished he could say rtilightee)
the t üblic mind on the question, it was highly ex-
pedient Parliament should not ',emirate without
some expreeeon of their opinion on it. He was
sorry that the Hon. General had given him the
miserable advantage of urging against the motion
the lateness of the Session ; hut he could tell
Gentlemen who desired to extend the Scottish
law to Ireland, that it would be first necessary to
repeal no less titan '29 Acts of Parliament.—
The gallant General had not, in his introductoty
speech, laid one atingle groond for acceilitig to the
motiott. It contained nothing but getteral elk ga-
emits of the severity of the town-lend fitting law,
and of its (its his view) unfortunate consequences;
sled after the charges-contained in a publication
before 'alluded to, he hail been surptised that the
[lon. Gentleman (Mr. Chichester), so closely con-
nected with the author, had not attempted to sub-
stantiate one of the facts put forth iti that pam-
phlet—facts which, if true, ought to draw down
the vengeance of the law and the country on the
Ministers of Ireland. The question was,
the system of imposing fines ors tease-lends was
efficacious or otherwise ? Ile worsts! admit, how-
ever, that the system might he so 'severe, that its
efficacy, thuugh acknowledged, would Ina counter-
balance its severity. But the efficacy of the law
was not to be measured by its effects in one die.
trict. It might he inefficacious, and it might have
given rise to cruelties in one populous district,
while. it had completely attained its object, and
without ruse of the attendant evils, in the other
parts of Irritant!, lie would wish the House to
suspend for (me moment the conSideration of its
Effects iii the county of Donegal, end reflect
oat what it had effected in the other counties.—
The effect on the latter might be Calculated from
the fact, that not a single petition had been pre-
sented to the House from any part of Ireland hot
that single county, and no instance of unreasonable
strictness in putting the law in execution had here
adduced front any other quarter ; nor had he beard
ha his official capacity of one complaint against the
officers of Patellae except from Donegal. He had
seen the allegetiocs of vigour and cruelty made
agtillibt the officers of the district, which iiscluded
Etinishowen, and should speak of them shortly ;
! now lie would observe that she offici,al documents
. presented to the House shelved that the tow's-land
law hied attained its object iu that and the
adjoining districts, us effectually as law could.
There was certainly no better criterion Jur judging
of thir system than by examining its pr,ctical nye-
: retiree seeing what were the number of still flues
1 for the three years preceding the Act, the amour), of
the rewords paid to the military sod constables, cud
referring to the same items since the Act was curried
into effect. Let the House look then at the years
1814, 15, and 16. lit 1814 there were 1,917 still
fines ineesed—in 1815, 10,506—ia 1916, 1,053.
I Now, in 1817, the number was reduced to 370, sod
un average of 1318, to 368. The next crates-ion WAS
the expenses pnid the military and constablts—(the
hornier; be it rt rnetnbered, must be employed for
general purposes, quite exclusive of the present
~coatsideratinn). In 1813, the year before the mea-
sure, the sums paid to the military, tke. uniuuuted
to gi,ooo/.—lti 18141°16,500e—in 1815 to 15.0110/.
—le its Ili to le,ooo/.--eated in 1817 to 7,0ue1.
//(ear.)---.lle would also beg to roll the atietition
or the House to a most material circunistattee ; he
ulealit the coesumptiou of spirits in Derry mid

(

R'i
trtienatie. TI ,e Consoinvidion of spit its in the district
of Londonderry, for the three years preceding 1814.
wint 111,000 gallons—for the three subsequent years
111,000. Ili Sirabstie, for theiltree years before 1814,
,the consumption was short of 15,000 gallons—for
the three years since the consumption %,as 90,8 m)
gallons, being six times greater than dasiog the
preceding period. In Ulster, for the three presious
years, 04amber was 518,000 gallons—for the
three sti tient 1,540,000. These, which were
official returns of the consolation of legtil spirits,
chewed at once the efficacy 11Me present system in
keeping down and preventing the illicit elistillatitsii.
There was another remarkable fact worth the atten-
tion of the House; it was this. In the year 1817
the tines all over Ireland were in number 593,
whtle in the year 1818, in the county of Donegal
alone, the county w.th which the Honourable
General (Hart) was more immediately connected, the
still fines were no less thou 618. —( near, and a
laugh.)—He would here just run over the fines of
other counties, on a comparison of the amount fir
five years. 111 the county of Kilkenny there had
been during this period 13 fines, in tire couitty of
Cork t 2, %Vieklow .5, Waterford 3, not one io
Kerry, and in Donegal alone 3,480.—/hear,
end mach laughter.)—lt was from this circutristatice
that laud in that county bore so monstrous a lin
mitstio ; that the tithe on corn was so considera-
ble, and barley land at so enormous a value per
:acre, iu comparison with that of any other district,
though the land was notoriously buggy, and of on
ittleriur quality as paied with other soils. If
the line on townhands were repealed, it must be ob-
vious from these facts that the illicit distillation
would nourish in full vigour, %%bile in the scne

proportion the consounptioli_ of legal spirits would
he reduced, and the reven* of course injured in
the same ratio. They had heard of the iitrulasit of
11 r. Robert Young, who complained he had incur-
red or suffered tines to the amount iif 2,0001. and
who plainly stated in his affidavit, that lie thought
it hard he should suffer more than his neighbours;
who were notoriously less desirous to ai.ply them-
%rives tisremove the evil. This, together with the
importation of man-traps for revenue officers—
(.9 laugh)—.hewed pretty plainly the militoken
desire which generally prevailed to • the
illicit practice. Now from these practices,
and all his information on the subjset, he could
only draw one of two cont•lusions—either that
the land in the county of Donegal derived a pecu-
liar benefit from illicit distillation, or that there
was some constitutional peculiarity in die inhabi-
tants of that district which gave them an antipathy
against legal spirits, or as they expressively term-
ed it, Parliament wh;tikey.—(,l laugh.)—lndeed
the Don. General (Hart) had himself, when
fxa-
nuned before the Committee, avowed the predilec-
tion they had for the illegal spirit, and had said
that they did not wish to drink any other. lir loot
heels asked, " General, do your haymakers chink
it'" (the legal whiskey)—A. " I believe
Q. Would you give it to them ?" (still Speaking of
the Parliament w hirkey") —A. " I certainly
would not if I could get any other." (//
It was dear, therefore, that the predilection
we. general; but the misfortune was, that it
was too snitch to ask all the other comities iii [re-
boil to pay for the peculiar palates of the ittople of
Donegal.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—They had heard

ro great many statements of the sufferings of iodic -
do'ts through the town-!and flue system; hut tie
(MP. Peel) denied the fomodation of these state-
ments. The Right Hon. Gentleuati then referred
to a pamphlet lately published,, whether
the House was prepared at first sitw to believe the
statements made in that publicaliou—for tostaticr,
that a very meritorious person wit refused 44 license
for to 100 or 150 gallon still, because a 50U gallon
one was in the neighbourhood—or the /ton of the
Collector forcib:y takinv a penuld iote nut.of the
pocket of s person named M'Augles I—This state-
Meld met with a flat contradiction, and in a "note to
the publication containing the cliaige. '1,.. Chi-
chester mentions that he never cohontlerod the mat-
ter in the light of a robbery. The R%lol
Gentleman concluded by hoping, that au the soli.
Iva hied been brought before the House-, it %%mold
not suffer the motion to be withdrawn, but would
pronounce all opinion upon it,—(Hear.)
Mr. CHICIIEsTER, its elpialisitiOii, denied that
the Gentlemen in the county, particularly one,
with whom he was very nearly connected, dein rved
the reflection.' that had been thrown out —that loth-
violas! was Us honourable a man as ally in that
!louse. All that the supporters of the notion ro-
quired was discussion, and to be allowed an oppor-
tunity of proving their statements.—(Hear.)
Mr. Pm. disclaimed having cast re &clunks n pen
any booty, he had merely referred to the stacsruents
sent forth its the printed pamphlet, and argued
f theme.

Sir NICHOLAS C. Cournuarr expressed his opt-
nion against the motion. The late per;od of the
Session, end consequent impossibility of entering
ii.to any inquiiy now upon the subject, was in itself
u sufficient argument against its being enteitained
Nt ii•sisent. lie also declared luinself hostile to
putting the Irish distillers on the same footing as
the Scotch, for he thought such a rneasare would
be most unjust to the large distillers who hail em-
barked in business at a great expense, :mil who
contributed so large a sum to the receilue.—
t Hear./

Mr. PARNELL said, that the Right Ilan. S,-
cretury for Ireland had not attempted to throw
credtt sitmai any of the facts related iu the 1)015.*
toion alluded to, except two. and those appeared
tv he inaccuracies, in no degree affecting the -tilt-
staoce or principle of the statement. It therefore
seemed very strange to attack those two cafes, es-
pecially as the inaccuracies had beet, admitted by
I;ke author himself. It ought to be remarked that
is great number of the a•srrtintu stated in Ih:it
inetnpliltt, had heen •
furnished by the
In none of tlicse

Secretion' advent',

t,rial %vot.iii not 111

lion. The I ;Ise,
more one of

ustlierr.l of In. fore
btrai yarned two
only agamit Irrlri
? The 1,
litipso. r
Airle for
Evcit giAit;tig told

.• , .
_.
land oriigitnatiel is.i the county .4.„ thotog4l :,this roost'
tio.
airs, iespessible for hint t No, sealant all the Done
uptefertouniettessdisti dm' .0111 e slier tly lusted Publ.'
Vof dlo be mit _ exPeskes. and ef per which
is to soldiers and ERA* Am.. ke. attebtling Ito do
It Ist 1814 eniosittin4 td above seventposie thou.. fillet
.sand pounds, ant considered himself as compelled 141111
to tome &netted in the manner he then did, by the bow.
coibiderstion of the numerous Petitions he had or th
_ . .•

teen tally contiiined by evidence
Board of thenisciver, but
me had the Right HonourAle
td. lie hoped that the Hon. l;e-
-he persuaded to airlocks% his olio-
hooever, appeared to hint to be
sciple than or fact. It ed.'s one
✓e, and which ncrer could hare
effect lowlands Engl.:lid, for it wits
▪ 11111 l such -measures otre at-
principle appeared to hint real-
it spade an entire neightnissi hood
a secret fault .r an individual..
hat it oh/old be puesibla to detect