The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-11 00:00:00

THE ALDERSHOT ENCAMPMENT.

In reply to Mr. BELLEW,
Mr. PEEL said it was not intended to keep the
troops in buts at Aldershot during the winter, but pre-
parations were being made to procure houses as barracks
for them.
LORD DUNDONALD'S PLANS.

In reply to Mr. FRENCH,
Lord PALMERSTON said the subject of Lord Dun-
donald's plans was at present under the consideration
of scientific men, but he thought it advisable not to enter
into the subject at present.
In reply to Sir J. PAKINGTON,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said with respect to
Church discipline, which at present was a subject of
great reproach, a bill on that subject was prepared by
him, or at least under his direction, at the same
time as the Testamentary Jurisdiction Bill. When the
bill was introduced it had not been submitted to the Go-
♦ernment. It had since been submitted to them, and
they thought it right that the opinion of the right rev.
prelates should be had on it. It had been submitted to
them accordingly, and they had not yet returned it; but
he could state the bill was prepared on the principle of
treating tho Churches of England and Ireland as one
Church, and he was not aware of any other legal prin-
ciple on which it could he framed. (Rear, hear.) With
regard to the time for the introductmn of the bill, the
house would see it was impossible for him to say when
it could be brought in. It could not be brought in be-
fore the second reading of the Testamentary Jurisdic-
tion Bill, seeing they were in the middle of an adjourned
debate on that bill. But he hoped it would be brought in
before the third reading of the latter bill. The Government
had not the slightest intention of abandoning the Tes-
tamentary Jurisdiction Bill. It was impossible they
could have the second reading of that bill to-morrow,
but certainly they should have it on the first opportunity
when the more pressing business of Government would
(Hear.) Witt7regard to the Matrimonial Di-
vorce B 11, it bad been prepared in time for the second
reading of the Testamentary Jurisdiction Bill, but the

Same causes that delayed the other bills operated also
with regard to it. (Hear.)
THE CANDIA TRANSPORT.

Mr. MOODY asked the Under-Secretary for War
the cause of the detention of the Cand:a; and whether
demurrage v.a,s to he paid, aod, if any, to what amount
per day, and from what date for such detention; also,
whether any special report as to her sea-worthiness had
been recently made, that the lives of those sent out in
her might not be endangered.
Mr. F. PEEra said that, according to the information
he had received, the detention of the vessel was caused
by an opinion expressed by the officers at Woolwich un-
favourable to the manner in which she bad been fitted
up. In consequence of that opinion, the members of
the transport board inspected the vessel, and satisfied
themselves that there was no ground for apprehension
on that score, and accordingly the vessel had proceeded
to sea, after a detention of four or five days only. No
demurrage bad been paid, as the vessel was a hired one.
THE CANTERBURY DUEL.

In reply to Mr. 0. STANLEY, -
Mr. F. PEEL said he believed an investigation was
now being made into the circumstances attending the
late tranqactions at Canterbury, and the hostile meeting,
or " mock duel," as it had been termed, between two
officers of the Enniskillen Dragoons. As he had, how-
ever, no intimation that the hon. member would put
sulk a question to-day, and was consequently not pre-
pared to 3nswer it satisfactorily, he would beg its post-
ponement until to-morrow,
Mr. STANLEY said he would renew the question to-
morrow.

THE VIENNA NEGOTIATIONS.
Mr. BRIGHT said he wished to ask the noble lord
at the head of the Government a question arising out of
the protocols which had been laid upon the table of the
house. He observed in the last protocol that there was
a passage which gave the opinion of the Austrian Go-
vernment with regard to the Russian propositions for
peace. The Austrian minister stated that the propositions
seemed to him to admit of a practical application,' that
it admitted, at all events, of discussion, and contained
all the elements out of which Austria would endeavour
to offer something which might lead to a settlement of
the question now at issue. He wished to ask the noble
lord whether Austria had submitted any proposition
since the 26th April, which was the date of the last pro-
tocol, and whether he would be able to lay that proposi-
tion before the house as distilictly as the other propositions
had been laid / He should like also to ask whether
any other proposition— and there was a strong rumour
of one having coma from Paris—had been received ;
and further, if they were to understand that the nego-
tiations were formally closed ? He did so, because he
should not like to bring forward any motion relative to
the negotiations if he thought they were not absolutely
terminated. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said there had been no formal
.or written proposal from Austria of the nature alluded
to by the hon. gentleman. Verbal communications had
passed between the representatives of the Austrian Go-
vernment and those of the English and French Govern-
ments,
and also between the representatives of the
French and English Governments; buthe was sure the hon.
gentleman would perceive that in the relations subsisting
between the two Governments it would not be at all
advantageous to give a detailed explanation with regard
to them. With respect to the question as to the nego-
tiations being entirely broken off, his answer would be
similar to that he had given on a former occasion—
namely, that there were the elements of a Conference
still at Vienna, in the persons of the Ministers of
Britain, France, Austria; and Turkey, and there-
fore, if at any time propositions should be made
by Russia directly, or by Austria on her behalf,
which appeared to alter the state of affairs, or to offer a
fair prospect of bringing the negotiations to a successful
termination—there were the means and elements for
receiving them still at Vienna.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know whether the house was
to understand that the matter was in such a condition
that any motion with regard to those negotiations, and
the fullest discussion of them would not be opposed by
the Government as prejudicial t i the public service.
Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. gentleman must
We his own discretion with regard to that point. If his
(Lord Palmerston's) opinion was asked, he did not think
any public advantage would arise, but lie could
imagine that certain inconvenience might result
from the Government being compelled in the present
state of things to enter into a detailed discussion upon
what had passed. That was his own opinion, but he
did not presume to dictate to the hon. gentleman.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice on the part of her
Majesty's Government that it was his intention to in-
troduce two bills with reference to the constitution, &c.,
of Australia.
Mr. DISRAELI asked the noble lord at the head of
her Majesty's Government if he understood the noble
lord to say that the business of the house would com-
mence to-morrow with the adjourned debate on the
newspaper stamp, and the financial measures after ?
Lord PALMERSTON—Yes.
THE INDIAN ARMY.

Sir E. PERRY rose to move, in pursuance of notice, for
a select committee to consider and inquire how the army of
India may be made most available for the war in Europe,
and to inquire into the steps necessary to be taken if it
should be deemed expedient to constitute the army of the
East India Company a royal army. He said he had now to
bring forward a motion which had stood on the paper for
some weeks, and which the noble lord at the head of the
Government had thought of sufficient public interest to
warrant his allowing him to bring it on in preference to
the Government orders. As the motion had been in same
degree changed in its terms, he thought it desirable that
he should state, before he proceeded to speak of its merits,
what the motion actually was. His object being essen-
tially inquiry, he had asked several members of the house
what they considered the best method of obtaining an
impartial inquiry into the facts of the case, and
he found them unanimously of *pinion, that for that pur-
pose there was nothing to be compared to the appoint-
ment of a select committee. He was also informed that
his subject being a military one, it would conduce to his
success to ask for a royal commission. He framed his mo-
tion in accordance with that view ; but when he came
down to the house on the evening on which the subject
was fixed for discussion, he found that her Illajesty's Go-
vernment were about to oppose his motion, on the ground
that what he asked for was a royal commission, and not the
more constitutional tribunal of a select committee of that
house. Accordingly, he re-changed the motion to its original
state, and he was confirmed in his opinion that that was the
best course, by the fact that the bon. and gallant member
for Westminster, who would second his motion thatevening,
considered that the royal commission which had sat upon
the army had proved utterly inadequate to the purposes in
view. He ought perhaps to apologise to the house for
introducing a subject which might perhaps in many re-
spects have been more adequately treated by a military
man • but his excuse for doing so was that in India
he had had opportunities of becoming practically ac-
quainted with the civil and military organisation of the
country. He assured the house that he had no other ob-
ject than that of developing the resources of the empire,
and strengthening the relations between England and In-
dia. He regarded the subject as one which was at the
present time peculiarly fit for inquiry. Even the answers
which they had hoard that night to the questions put by
the hon, member for Manchester, confirmed him in the
impression that it became them all to brace up their minds
for a struggle from which it was impossible for them to
withdraw without disgrace. If this war was to last—
and that it would last was a possibility which everybody
was contemplating—he affirmed boldly that they must
look to the Indian army for reinforcements. It was
obvious that India was a country which had great
military resources • and unless the difficulties which
presented themselves were insuperable, they ought
to be employed in an emergency like the present. If
the house would allow him, he would enter into some
details as to the strength of the Indian army, and
as to its organisation and efficiency ; and he could
assure the house that such details were by no means
within the reach of superficial inquirers. Even now, al-
though he had given his best attention to the subject for
many weeks past, he was not in a position to give an accu-
rate statement as to the total military force of India. The
late Sir Charles Napier, soon after accepting the post of
Commander-in-Chief in India, endeavoured to ascertain
what was the amount of force placed under his command,
and he (Sir E. Perry) heard him state that, after having
summed np the force to the amount of 400,000 men, he
found that there were still troops to be enumerated, and
gave up the task in despair. During the last few weeks he
had moved for a return with the view of obtaining accurate
information, but that return did not supply all the facts
which he desired to lay before the house. He had gone,
therefore, to Parliamentary returns which contained in-
formation here and there on this subject, and ho would now
give as complete a statement as ho could as to what the
amounted to 289,529 men. This
military force at the disposal of the Easht,
olnfoduiandCtohmaptatnhye
tl laid
p a y before
of
really was. Takingi,ame Indiantinh ge ltahasf
affairs
aQi
rus return,eieonlB
8 33 which
, troops %Pia:
thete Indian
E as
army,
Indian committee
company,
force included about 30,000 Europeans in the service of
at the
expense
of
the Queen, and 20,000 in the service of the East India
Company. The contingents supplied by native princes
number
and
raised the total to 349,000 men ; and including 35 batta-
lions of militia, and other forces, the result at which he
arrived was, that there were altogether 457,000 men, and
12,00020.596
oo offitmer
. 'Phis v
the French army in 1,,52. In that year the army of France
numbered 377,000 men, and 19,604 officers, who were
officers, who
xow,eordeedmaintained
the
maintained at au expense of 12,340,000/. ; so that the num-
ber of the Indian army at tied time exceeded that of
the French army by nearly 100,000 men, while the excess
of cost was 8,001,000/. It is well known that the army
in India was divided into three distinct arms, each arm
having a separate commander-in-chief, and a separate
staff. The commander•in-chief
of, the Company's
was also conainander-in-ceie, of her Majesty's
army Majesty's
regiments in India. lie begged the attention of the
the house to the remark which he was about to make, as
it would show what was the fundamental principle of the
Government of India. The large army was placed
entirely
under the control of the civil power; the Governor-Gene-
ral was supreme over it ; all its movements rested
exclu-
sively with him ; and, as the late Sir Charles Napier
forci-
bly observed, the Commander-in-Chief in India
was no-
. thing more than a monstrous adjutant-general. The house
ne-
louse
would observe here an embodiment of the principle
distinguished the governments of modern from which
those of
ancient times—the principle, namely, that the
army
be subservient to the civil authority in the State should
now to touch upon the efficiency of the army which he had
described ; and in order to guard himself against thee had
pre-
sumption of attempting to speak on military t c
like
that, be trusted the house would allow him topi
short extracts which he had culled from Parliamentary
some
documents, and at the same time to state that
he had b
careful to select the opinions only of men connected with
her Majesty's service. The first extract which 1 ed
with
read was from a speech delivered in 1813 by
the le should
Wellesley in the House of Lords av Marquis
rested too much on the footing of profit, aeithror°,' in India
to honours at home. An army more full than thet
army in
reference
India, of honour, loyalty, and valour, he had
never seen,
would
and he could not have conceived that it under any
authority have become otherwise. • • • But it did hap-
pen, somehow or other, that the officers of the army in In-
dia were not held forward to public view as m
officers in other parts of the world, and they feltu ah as
that othe
services ho-
nour and dis motions were conferred for vices not more
meritorious cr important than their own, which were de!

...
flied
ed to them." And, a little later, he said :—" He had had
igreat opportunities of trying them (the Indian army) un-
der great difficulties and privations, at a distance from
their homes and families, and yet their zeal and energy
never abated. In the wars of Mysore and Egypt, the
native troops did not hesitate to embark in ships, al-
though that was contrary to their usages and prej a-
dices ; and the reason that they so cordially consented to
embark was from seeing that there was no compulsion.
He would now cite the opinion of that gallant officer to
whom he had already referred—the late Sir C. Napier. He
ought to observe that that gallant officer went out to India
with the strongest prejudice against the East India Com-
pany and everything connected with it, and unfortunately
*he committed hiniself to print; but, after having served in
several campaigns with the Indian army, and gained for
himself immortal honours by the victories obtained while
he was at their head, this was the opinion which he gave:
—" My opinion of the army generally is, that it is a very
fine army. The Indian artillery I really think is the most
effective artillery in the world. Its practice is admirable.
I have seen a good deal of it. The Royal Artillery may be
superior as a scientific corps; but as a practical corps in the
field, in crossing mountains, jungles, rivers, and in every-
thing that artillery can be called upon to do in the field.
I never saw anything better than the Indian Artillery."
Lord Gough said on the same subject :—" I think the In-
dian army is nearly perfect. . . There cannot be an army
more loyal, better disposed, or more ready to do their duty.
It is quite impossible to have a more brilliant set of offi-
cers, or a finer body of men than the Artillery of Bengal.
. . I must say of the natives, as well as the Euro-
peans, that a more devoted set of men cannot be found."
Then with regard to the Bombay army, his gallant friend
Sir Willoughby Cotton had often said to him substantially
in private what he thus expressed before a committee :
"I do not conceive that there is a more effective army,
certainly not in India, and I think I may say not any-
where, than the Bombay army; they will go anywhere ;
they never make an objection to embark to any place ;
wherever you may require a contingent to-morrow, you can
send whatever number of them you please. If they are
alone they fight well, but if they are mixed with European
troops I think they are fully equal to any in the world."
Again, his gallant colleague (Sir G. Berkeley), on being
questioned as to what he thought of the Madras army, said
he thought it very good indeed. What was the opinion of
Lord Gough with regard to the medical staff of the Indian
army ? His lordship said—" It was my fortune to serve
during the whole almost of the Peninsular war4nd I have
served through several campaigns in India, but in the
Punjaub campaign I do not think that at any one period
there was a wounded man without his dooley (litter) nor
wanting any comfort it was possible to give him." Then,
again, in reference to the commissariat, Lord Gough bore
this important testimony. He said that " during the
Mahratta campaign and the Sutlej campaign, the army
under my command was never one day without its regular
provisions." He was quite ready to admit that at length an
effort in the right direction had been made by the organisa-
tion of a land transport corps, under the command of a most
1 gallant soldier—one who would, no doubt, justify the high
reputation which he had heretofore obtained. There was
also an attempt about to be made—he trusted that it
would be a successful one—to raise a Turkish contingent,
and to officer it with Indian soldiers. Certainly, if due
discrimination had been displayed in this matter, the ser-
vices of men who had distinguished themselves in every field
in India for the last twenty years might have been secured.
But, by the infelicity of the steps which her Majesty's
Government had taken, they had failed to avail themselves
of the services of the men whom all India would have
pointed out as the most efficient. He stated this without
the intention of casting any disparagement upon the officers
who had been induced to enter upon the service of organ-
ising and commanding that contingent. But truth and
the great interests at stake demanded that he shouel state
that none of them were of that eminence which the occa-
sion demanded—none bore names known in Indian story.
What was the case when he referred to men whose names
were not amongst those officers ? When he mentioned
the name of General Patrick Grant, he mentioned
the name of one who if parliamentary precedent and
the rules of party did not prevent it—would be the
man to fill at the present time the post of Minister
of War ; one who was versed in the conduct of mili-
tary matters, and who was capable of taking the
conduct of the affairs of our armies at the present
juncture. Yet this gentleman was unemployed. There
was also Captain Hodgson, of whom Sir C. Napier had
spoken in the highest terms. There was also Brigadier-
General Mayne, whom, as the house well knew, Govern-
ment had not 'been able to persuade to take a subordinate
command. Now, non-employment of men of that kind
was a national calamity. In complaining that no use had
been made of the Indian army, it was essential that he
should point out what use might have been made of it.
After much attention to the subject, and many communi-
cations with military men upon the subject, he had not
the slightest doubt that under proper arrangement a Euro-
pean force of from 20,000 to 25,000 men, forming a com-
plete corps d'armee, might be despatched fieen India to the
Crimes. He was also informed by many of the highest
authorities that it was possible that a large army might be
despatched through the valley of the Euphrates, so as to
form a junction with troops in Georgia. No one could have
studied Indian' history without knowing that a body of
25,000 cavalry would be of the most essential service in such
a campaign as that in which we were now engaged. The
warfare in the Crimea was in some of its phases not unlike
an Indian war. There were the same difficulties of trans-
port—the same difficulties of provisioning. He (Sir E.
Perry) had known cases in India in which men had carried
with them sufficient for ten days. Hence an army from
India would be most useful in the present state of things i
in the Crimea. It was too late to think of such a thing
for the present campaign, as the rainy season had set in.
But, in time for the next campaign men might be de-
spatched
from the different ports of India to a convenient ,
place of rendezvous, whence they might proceed to the
seat of war. That such a plan was perfectly feasible was
proved by the fact of two regiments having already found
their way from India. He (Sir E. Perry) had a doubt
that it would be said by those who entertained a different
view from himself, that it was very easy for him to get up
in his place and state vague generalities, and he could
not but, admit that the very nature of the subject
obliged him to be somewhat general. It would also, he
doubted not, be said that it would not be safe to denude
India of English troops. It was well known that objection
had Leen made by Lord Dalhousie to the withdrawal of a
single man excepting cavalry regiments. The opinion which
Lord Dalhousie had upon this question might or might not
be correct—he (Sir E. Perry) had no means of ascertaining
1 thefact. But supposing it to be a correct view of the matter,
the plan which he would suggest was this, that the freshly
raised regiments should be sent out to India to replace those
withdrawn forservioe fa the Crimea. This, as it seemed to
him, would be farbetter than the system which now prevailed
of sendingout raw recruits, most of whom were mere boys,
to almost certain death from unaccustomed hardships.
There was another objection which might be urged, viz.,
the difficulty of settling in a mixed corps d'armee the rela-
tions of the officers amongst themselves. It had been thought
by some hon. members and out of doors, that a late order
had put an end to all difficulty on this question. He
thought, however, that such was not the effect of that me-
morandum. It would be in the recollection of some hon.
members that he had a few evenings since taken the oppor-
tunity of putting a question to the President of the Board
of Control upon this matter. From the answer of the right
hon. gentleman he had inferred that the memorandum in
question, emanating from her Majesty, meant nothing more
than upon its face it purported to mean, and that its only
effect, therefore, was to give to Indian officers an honorary
distinction all over that reek which they bore in India.
This was the whole and sole effect of that memorandum.
It was plain, therefore, that no liberty to command, except
in India, was conferred upon Indian officers, and hence,
if those officers were employed with Queen's troops, they
might be told, as in the time of Abercromby, that they
had no right io give orders. Even if the reading which
he put upon this memorandum were incorrect, still it fell
far short of what the exigencies of the times and of the
service demanded. The British army at this moment
consisted of about 460,000 men' with upwards of 10,000
officers. The State required that this large army should be
made as efficient as any army in the world. Our officers,
whether Queen's or Company's, wore, as a body and upon
the whole, superior to those of any other nation. But in
some things these officers were not to be compared with
those of foreign nations. He required in thisbranch of the
service, as an administrative reformer required in other
branches, that the best men should be found to fill the
highest posts. At the present moment there were several
important military questions waiting for settlement. There
were the questions of promotion, of recruiting, of military
education, of training, and of pay. All of these re-
quired the greatest consideration from military and
professional persons. Any measures which might be
taken with reference to these matters could only be satis-
factory if the whole army were dealt with ; and in fact,
according to the opinion of the boat military authorities
upon the matter, no satisfactory reformation could be
effected in these matters, unless a complete amalgamation
took place of the Queen's and Company's services. It was
not only in a British point of view that this change was
important—it was no less required for the benefit of ndia.
He had no hesitation iu affirming that in India the military
and civil forces did not—to use a French expression—
" function " well ; in order to this it was necessary that
the army in India should be a royal army, under the con-
trol, as at present, of the supreme government of India.
There was also another important question upon which he
felt it his duty to touch, although it was a delicate one, for
he had known much good arise from the mention of such
things in Parliament. He affirmed that there was some-
thing unsafe in the mode in which our military force in
India was constituted. A largo number of officers wore at
out-stations, far from the control of public opinion. Nor
was this all ; we had had mutinies in the army itself—a
spirit of disaffection had prevailed for years. It was the
part of a wise statesman not to shrink from grave facts like
these, but to look them fairly in the face, and, if possible
device a remedy by which they might be mot. He believed
that if the Indian army were a royal army much of this
disaffection would disappear in the allegiance and loyalty
which were natural to the position of royal troops.
Hon. members would see that he had no desire to exalt
the Company's army at the expense of the Queen's. In-
deed he believed that, as a whole, the latter would be en-
titled to rank higher than the former. Ho needed only
name Lawrence, Clive, Wellesley, Lord Lake, and last,
but not least, Napier, to prove this position. There
were no names in the Indian allay to vie with those which
he had just mentioned. Indeed, to make the Indian what
the royal force was, it should be bound as closely as pos-
sible to the mother country. He would say, bind the
Indian army as closely to us as might be, and, following
the example which the French in Algeria had set us with
regard to their army, make it gradually as national in
its character as possible. So far he had traced the bene-
fits of the proposed change as regarded the State ; he
would now consider it in relation to the soldier himself.
Viewing the matter in this light, he thought that the
proposed change would be advantageous both to the
Queen and the Company's men. The Queen's forces
would have opened to them not only those staff ap-
pointments which were so numerous in India, but also
several civil and political posts, which were now, from the
exigencies of Indian service, often filled by military men.
The officers of the Company would also be benefited. They
would have the advantage of an increased field of military
exertion, as well as the prospect of higher military reward
than they could at present attain. In addition to this they
would have the honour of serving the Queen—an nnonr
which, as every one knew, had great influence with mili-
tary men. He could not help thinking that it was perfectly
gamfro
ridiculous that the great advantage which would arise
this fact alone should bo lost to the Slia.etre.GeThherealholle.ayne
gen-
tleman here read a letter from Brigadier-General 1
and another from a native gentleman who had acted as
interpreter to Sir W. Gomm. and Sir
in confirmation of his
closely connected withbriefly tli ivlsew s
subjectviews.
adverting.Thetroe •slw, haisclht a
washe questionwouldthis,
content himself with
whether the amalgamation of the royal and Indian
armies should be complete, or whether the Indian army
should be a distinct portion of the forces of the empire,
The latter was the view of Lord Grenville. Of course this
was a question for the consideration of military men but
he thought that there was this objection to the plan of Lord
Grenville—it would tend to make the Indian army a mere
a local body, and thus render it a species of militia. Such

state of things -would, he thought, degrade the dignity-arid
lower the efficiency of the Indian troops. Of course, if the
plan which ho th4ra advocated were approved by that house
it would require to b-3 gradually introduced and the changes
should be nytde with consideration and care. He did not
wish to di iguise from the houss that the principle of the
plan which he had ventured to bring forward was no now
thing. It had been brought forward by Lord Grenville in
1813, in one of the most effective statements which had ever
been made within the walls of parliament. Many of the
changes foretold in that speech have since come to pass as
actual facts. Amongst other matters, Lord Grenville went
fully into the question of the amalgamation of the Indian
army with that of the -Queen's, and gave it as his opinion
that such an amalgamation ought to take place. But there
was another authority yeE stronger on- the point. Lord
Grenville was not a military man, and he had never been
in India. But he (Sir E. Perry) would nest cite the opin-
ion of a man who had been in India, and who was acquaint-
to England round the Cape, in 1794,
ed with military affairs. Lord Cornwallis, on his return
applied himself for
months to tie consideration of the constitution of the
Indian army, and to the best mode of making it available
for the purposes of the state. It came to the knowledge
of the Board of Control that Lord Cornwallis had consi-
dered the matter ; and, upon his arrival in England, Sir
G. Dundas wrote to him to know what were the details
of his plan. Upon that Lord Cornwallis proposed a most
elaborate scheme, at the same time expressing his
opinion that no scheme could be permanently useful
unless, as a preliminary measure, the whole of our
force in India was transferred to the royal service, to be
conducted for the future on the principles which regu-
lated the royal army. At the same time, Lord Corn.
waffle said, it was to be clearly understood that all• his
Majesty's troops serving in India were to be perfectly sub-
ordinate to the company's government, and to receive their
orders through the court of directors. To carry on this
thread of authorities, to show how Parliament up to the
present time had dealt with the question, he would read I
the opinions which had been given since 1794. In 1813,
Lord Grenville made his great speech on the subject, and
the company presented an able minute protesting against
the change then proposed, on the ground that if their
army were incorporated with the Queen's they would loss
all prestige and patronage, and become cyphers. That
defeated the bill, but in 1833 the question was again raised
before a committee, and the then Secretary to the Board
of Control circulated a number of queries to Indian offi-
cers as to the expediency of the change. A vast body of
evidence was collected, which would be found in the re-
port. He admitted that there were but few great names
to be found amongst the witnesses, except Sir J. Mal-
colm, and his views were identical with those
which he (Sir E. Perry) advocated. Mr. Elphinstone
disapproved of the project, but his authority was not so
great as that of Sir J. Malcolm. He now came down to
the last Parliamentary committee that sat on Indian af-
fairs, and, strange enough, in that committee this great
question was not so much as mooted, and for that reason,
he had no recent evidence of which he could avail himself.
He admitted l',that there were some difficulties surrounding
the question, and those difficulties divided themselves into
two classes—difficulties of principle and difficulties of de-
tail. The difficulties of detail he would pass over, as
being better adapted for discussion in committee upstairs,
but there were two or three difficulties of principle
which must be settled by the legislature. The fact was
the objection raised by Lord Grenville was, that if the
Queen's army were to be the only army serving in India,
it would be necessary to make the Government of India
a royal Government. He did not shrink from that
proposition, nor from expressing his opinion that
such a change would be highly beneficial to India.
The legislature had not, however, thought right to
adopt that course, but for twenty years had been
gradually taking away from the company every vestige of
power, and leaving them at last without any function
whatever. But the question had already been tested;for
we had at this moment in India 30,000 Queen's troops
acting under the control of the civil servants of the com-
pany. Therefore if the Government still preserved this
phantom of a company, the latter would retain the control
of the army of the- Crown. Lord Cornwallis had con-
sidered the difficulty, and had provided for it by suggest.
ing that all despatches should pass through the Board of
Control, and that the Horse Guards should have nothing
whatever to do with the administration of the army in
India. But there was a still more serious difficulty, The
Indian service was apprehensive that if the armies were
fused, Parliamentary and aristocratic influence would
regulate the promotion, and that those officers
who had not high friends in England, would
be passed over for those who had. He could assure
the house that if he believed it likely that such would
be the case, he would not support the proposition for
a moment. Ho did not fear the erection of any new
abuse in the distribution of patronage. It was not easy to
eradicate old ones, but we were at that task at present,
and, under such circumstances, to establish any new
abuses, would be a task of such enormous difficulty that no
minister of the Crown would attempt it. But they had in
India the principle established which Parliament had dis-
covered to be the true one—namely, a mixed system of
seniority and selection. He admitted that in India the
system of seniority had been carried too far, but recently
selection had been added with the best possible effects.
Such being the case, he believed that the fears which were
entertained in some quarters against his project wero per-
fectly chimerical. He had a body of evidence to show the
mixed system as it was carried on in the French navy,
furnished to him by Admiral de Chabannes, and in this
country it had been most available in providing captains
for the Baltic fleet, A third difficulty was one which
had been put to him by some military men—namely,
how would it be possible to amalgamate the com-
pany's army with the Queen's while purchase was
the system of promotion in the one, and seniority in the
other. The obvious answer to this was, that the two sys-
tems existed in the Queen's service, seniority and purchase,
but there was another answer, and that was, that if the
war continued, purchase would completely disappear.
Any one who studied the Gazette for the last few weeks
would see that, as a military fact, the system of purchase
had already disappeared. One word as to the comparative
effects of the two systems. He had read carefully all the
authorities in favour of promotion by purchase, and he
found them all to have one basis, namely, that such a sys-
tem permitted the advancemeht of young men to positions
of command ; but the Royal Commission declared that for
this purpose the system of purchase had failed, seeing
that the average age of major-generals in the Queen's ser-
vice was 65 years. In India, where the much-dreaded
seniority system prevailed, the average was only 62.
These' however' were questions of detail. lie thought
ho had shown the house that these were facts which
it was very desirable should be investigated by an
impartial tribunal. Papers had been showered upon them
from both services, much information would be elicited,
and besides, the inquiry he proposed would be perfectly
parliamentary. He felt that ho had left many topics, but
they would afford a wide field for the speakers who were
to follow him, but if they should be advocates for the East
India Company, be begged them to remember that during
the last 70 years, whenever a project inimical to the inte-
rests of the company was brought forward, the most plausi-
ble and ingenious arguments were used to deter the house,
and that whenever Parliament, in its wisdom, slighted
these predictions, subsequent experience was sure to prove
them to have been perfectly valueless. He ventured to
predict that, if the house granted him this committee,
such evidence would be offered as would enable Parliament
to add another to their important measures for the amelio-
ration of India. (Cheers.) The hon. member concluded
by moving the resolution.
Sir D. L. EVANS seconded the motion.
Sir J. FITZGERARD did not see how any amalgama-
tion could be accomplished between the Indian army and
the European army. The expense of removing an army
from India to the Crimea would be enormous. To induce
the Sepoy to leave India, he must have double pay and doa-
ble batta. But he was perfectly certain that the Sepoys
never would be able to endure the march and the service that
would be required of them. Under all the circumstances,
he saw no possible benefit likely to arise from the appoint-
ment of a committee, and he should therefore oppose the
motion.

Colonel DUNNE said the motion divided itself into
two distinct parts ; first, as to how many troops could be
spared from India to go to the Crimea. That was a ques-
tion for the executive Government to decide. It wee a
question of policy to be considered by the GovernMent,
and not one to be submitted to a committee of the House
of Commons. No doubt, if the East India Company
said they could spare 20,000 troops from India for the pur-
pose of prosecuting the war in the Crimea, it would be the
duty of her Majesty's Government to avail themselves of
their services. The second proposition of the hon. gentleman
was to amalgamate the Indian army with the Royal army,
but that was a proposition which had always been strenu-
ously opposed by the East India Company, and until the
whole governmentiof India was transferred to her Majesty's
Government it would be unadvisable tohave an army paid
by one Government and acting under the authority of
another. The recent appointments of Indian officers to
commands in the East had been greatly detrimental to the
officers of the Royal army, and but little compliment was
paid to her Majesty's officers when they .were told officers
from India were to receive commands over their heads in
the Crimea. References had been made by the hon. gen-
tleman to the appointments which had been made to the
Turkish Contingent. He (Colonel Dunne) was, however,
of opinion that a Turkish Contingent would never exist,
because it would be impossible to induce Turkish soldiers
to serve under Christian officers. The officers of the Royal
army had, nevertheless, been passedover in the commands
which had been distributed with respect to foreign troops.
Ono gallant friend of his, Colonel Chesney, a highly dis-
tinguished officer and a man well acquainted with the
East, had actually been appointed to one of these foreign
legions, and after having received his appointment was
removed to make way for an Indian officer. To make
a rule that the whole of the commands in her Majesty's
service should be thrown open to Indian officers would
hardly be dealing fairly with officers of the Royal army.
Her Majesty's officers felt proud of the high honour and
chivalrous conduct of their Indian comrades, but did not
think it either just or fair to transfer them to commands
in the Royal army over the heads of the regular officers of
that army. He was acquainted with several officers who
had served through the whole of the Spanish campaign,
but they were only recognised to this moment as civilians,
notwithstanding the distinguished services they might have
performed, and under such circumstances the hon. gentleman
had no right to complain that the recent orddr merely
.con-
ferred upon Indian officers honorary rank. If thheproost
proposi-
tions of the hon. gentleman were acceded to,
officers
-0 rs could
Dunne) believed that the services of none but
that the
(Colonel
be obtained, because it could not be expected.and
p.ace n
Indian army could be transferred fromuflntiLi
her Majesty's service. Indeed, most
tr 'many
of them
would be useless out of their own country. troaopis
Y.of Moultan they
-ndiani
and at the siege
troops
objected to cross the sea,
Though admirable
refused to work in the trenches' not (ha-
they, were
in India and admirably commanded,
..they
had seldom gained
the Royal troops, d
ciplined like
a victory without having been been hea by British officers.
d
Sir J. W. HOGG said
he had listened with great atten-
tion to the suggemtion
made by his hon. friend (Sir E.
Perry) in introducing
the
motion, and, having heard his hon.
friend's panegyric upon the Indian army and its efficiency in
he had certainly been somewhat sur-
prisedeveryr department,
that his hon. friend, knowing the authority to find
served, had arrivedat the -
under which that army
sion that it ought now to be transferred from the authority
by which it had been organised, and under which it had
gained its present state of efficiency. The hon. gentleman
spoke of some possible diversion that might be made by
the Indian army in the present war, and then proposed that
a Committee of the House of Commons should sit
question, and arrogate to themselves the fan st. upon the
Government both as to the policy of the c ions of the
in which it was to be conducted. ("No war and the mode
Perry.) The hon. gentleman had certainly no," from Sir B.
ditions to the Persian Gulf, to the Crimea, spoken of
exPe-
ley of the Euphrates, mentionin th and to the val-
gastions for the consideration ofg eul
only
as several sug-
call upon a committee to discussthe committee. Surely, to
transfer to them the functions such subjects would be to
motion of his hon. friend of the Government. The
in the first place how the army
this—to consider and inquire
army in India might be made
most available for the
present war ; and certainly it was
a gloomy anticipation with regard to the war, to say that,

after a committee had been sitting month after month, rod
porting to the house, and discussing the conduct of the
war, another committee ought to be appointed to inquire
how far the Indian army might bo rendered, not effectual
for general purposes, but actually available for the pre-
sent war. He would, however, tell his hon. friend that
that was not the question whidh ought to be considered.
The real question was, whether the Indi army, or
any part of it, could be spared from Indiaan consistently
with the safety of our Indian possessions. (Hear, hear.)
That was not a question for a committee of the Bonn of
Commons to-determine. Nay, it was not a question to be
determined by the Government of this country. It was a
question to be decided by the Governor-General of India
alone. The Governor-General, if he were the man he ought
to be, and if he were a man of such experience and talent
as he ever bad been, was alone competent to say whether a
soldier could leave India with due regard to the safety and
security of that mighty empire. This question, with regard
to the Indian army being available, was not one of specula-
tion ;it was a question of fact. The experience of, half a
century showed that the Indian army had 'always been
available. Had there been any difficulty in rendering that
army available for the expeditions to Egypt, Onion, Java.
the Mauritius, the Eastern Archipelago, and
I. • tan? He must, in passing, express his opinion
EatAhnuf fadrgto"ptpahea
paid
la: fs froagrrh.
ha
itwar,he t 0
Indian tuh. oa ungdh.
e treatf
ao r
nu g
ehmt bye
was
might d n
ug a
ay z
ash
sr
me
o fy referredaot
and.thatr aHt
Her
rewr Majesty'sth o etlSOdi
maunc officershGovernmenta.
m attt
eh
hra
anodft o_sa Indiantated tthaz
speculation
thheeyrewsua
hundreds of Indian officers velunteekedt and We o
result
Wthite:ienrvii:cefews odfalyandirui,
almoofaste7th within fwewhalLnrs:47;

remit there were many Indian officers serving this
country under Generals Williams and Cannon. Hie ben._
and learned friend had thought fit to constitute himself a
judge as to whether the proper officers had or had not
been selected. His hon. friend had named men whose
distinctionoagng )d who'wel
ialri4:s:aoflnadisetdo tsheeroutghtut
gallantn and
oofficers
ehr
se (Sir
pvthooyeiadadinaitrheeadsyerhvieceen;
sebluetett must
ere sareyenthaoftltili:ue
distofficinerse.
tion,
quire into the steps
deserving of the confidence that had been repesed in
them. His hen, friendtwaificeilditthey would show themselves
proposed, by his motion, to in-
if it should be d
army'rimed advisable to constitute the In-
dian a arm He
inquiry which was con
would have been a little
did not exist. His hon. friend
gentleman
dan
vraonto. told more logical if he had established
the condition precedent,
upop:oogph;Tha
proposing
hie
gs t
o conditionos
enter
t,o friend
tihnatot
hjad.
Hogg)•nothi nthgadtetfihneihteouto. an
e ot dmotion fora kindlioilon
,house
oared of
thato r
of change
u some
hh
ee
upon a ng
teh,
ea
paper d t h sot
noticei fh It appeared to him (Sir
only obtain some-enthnleemen first but
did not care what it was. The ho
commission to inquire and see what Heaven would send
them. The hon. gentleman, however, nove:elEed
committee. He (Sir J. Hogg) was sure that
and learned gentleman was sitting on the bench where he.
for a
had so long presided with honour to himself and advan-
tage to his country, and if any one were to make him
such a proposal as he had now submitted to the house
he would regard it as a kind of political bill of discovery,
to see if anything could be discovered upon which some-
thing could be founded. (A laugh.) His honourable
friend had directed attention to three prominent points
—the amalgamation of the two armies; whether there
ateadqmeeniotgtl;t be.neeessary
to
take
should or should not be a distinct, separate, local army for
India ; and, if there were to be a separate, dilitinct, local
army for India, whether or not that army should be a
Royal army. The hon. gentleman said he felt a little diffi-
culty with respect to the subject of amalgamation, and he
(Sir J. Hogg) was not surprised that he did so. Indeed
his only surprise was that hie hon. friend had not been
more sensible of the difficulty, for he (Sir J. Hogg) re.
garded such an amalgamation as not merely a matter of
of difficulty,but of impracticability. The two armies were,
indeed, absolutely antagonistic the one to the other. In'
the Queen's army they had the system of purchase and
exchange, and they had continual reliefs to different parts
of the British empire, bat in the Company's army there
was no purchase. In that army officers were gratuitously
nominated to commissions ; they did not rise by purchase,
but solely by seniority ; and so rigid was that rale of
seniority that exchange was precluded. In the Indian
army, the junior lieutenant not only had a right to have
the stipulated number of lieutenants above him, but
by the rules of the service he was entitled to have thesame
identical individual officers above him, and the rules of the
service did not permit of any exchange under any circum-
stances. Then, with regard to the system of reliefs, the
Indian army was a local army, and not only were its ser-
vices confined to India except under circumstances of pe-
culiar emergency, but, as a general rule, the army of each
presidency was confined to that presidency. He thought.
then, he was justified in saying that the constitutions and
arrangement of the two armies were not only different, but
that they were actually opposed the one to the other There
wero, however, some other matters which his hon. friend
had slurred over, but to which he (Sir J. Hogg) would
ask the attention of the house. In the Indian army every
certainpa y ofnumber
his orfayn eka.r s 'Ts ehr ve
There
e w
w;
er a se
alsoen ti tdl
iefd.
ftoeoffirereneettrfrefaufuntpedrosn—a tahse, for instance, funds for widows and
orphans, the contribution to which was compulsory—pe-
culiar to the Indian army. How, then, was an amalgama-
tion to be effected? Would they assimilate the Queen's
army to the Company's army, and give the former these
boons, or would they, assimilate the Company's army to
the Queen's and deprive them of their vested rights and
interests ? He asserted most confidently that amalgama-
tion was absolutely impracticable. What he had said so
far applied to the English officers and men ' • but how
would the suggested change affect the sepoys ? He would
ask the house to listen to what Mr. Macaulay said of the
sepoys. He said :

"A. hostile monarch may promise mountains-of gold to
our sepoys, on condition that they will desert the standard
of the Company. The Company promises only a moderate
pension after a long service. But every sepoy knows that
the promise of the Company will be kept, he knows that if
he lives 100 years his rice and salt are as secure as the
salary of the Governor-General, and he knows that there
is not another State in India which would not, in spite of
the most solemn vows, leave him to die of hunger in a
ditch as soon as he ceased to be useful."

That was a true description of the sepoy at OW present
time. Now, the sepoy had failings, and his prominent:ail-
ing was suspicion, dislike, and fear of innovation. HelSir
J. Hogg) did not exceed the bounds of fact when he said
thatany innovation excited and alarmed the distrust of the
sepoy, even though it were for his own benefit. He would
road to the house the opinion of an officer of the Indian
army, the historian of the Affghan war, with respect to the
danger of tampering with the Sepoys, in consequence of
their dreadof innovation. Mr. Kaye said—

"The people of India will bear a great deal, so long as
they are used to it. They aro very intolerant of change.
They do not understand it. They are timid and suspicious.
Benevolence and wisdom may go hand in hand IA our mea-
sures, but the people are not easily persuaded that what
we are doing is for their good."

This apprehension of change was peculiar to the people of
India, and every man who had ruled.that country had
acted upon the principle of altering as little as possible the
condition of the sepoys for fear of exciting some misap-
prehension. He (Sir J. Hogg) thought he had shown that
the amalgamation of the two armies was impracticable,
and he contended that, as they could not have such amal-
gamation, the army of India must be a separate, local,
distinct army. At this moment 9-10ths of the army were
natives. It must not only be a separate and distinct local
army, bu 4 it must be a native army. We could not hold
Indi. by an exclusively European force. This country
could not stand the drain of money and treasure ; the two
treasuries of England and India could not stand the drain
that would be necessary to hold India exclusively by a
European force. If they could do so it would be perilous
in the extreme, fatal to India, and fatal to our hold on
that country, from the disaffection and jealousies which it
would excite in the native mind. The army, then, must
be local and native, but it must be officered by British
officers in order to be effective. These officers must be
familiar with the language, the religion, the usages, and
the prejudices of the sepoys; and, if such were their quali-
fications, they could not fail to conciliate them and
command their affections. (Hear, hear.) Without such
qualifications, instead of conciliation, we would have
alienation ; and this brought him to a remark of his hon.
friend, who spoke of Indian officers as if it were an advan-
tage to be always looking to his native country. Now he
(Sir J. W. Hogg) contended for exactly, the reverse. The
Indian officer, to be effective and useful in the capacities
ho had indicated, must go out young—he must go out not
too old to be transplanted. He must take root in India,
and feel and look at India as his home; and not only must
he remain in India, but remain in the same regiment, that
he might know the peculiarities of the natives at large, as
well as every man individually in the regiment. The restalt
showed that this was the fact. At the present moment there
were I,ICO officers in the Indian army who, if they pleased,
might retire on pensions, but who were so much attached to
the country and so devoted to their profession and their
men that they did not, avail themselves of the privilege.
(Hear, hear.) A European force could not be in itself
s
local force in any sense similar to that of the native
it army.
wss
It ought to be identified with the native army. If
so, it would be a source of strength
was not it would fail to be either. ( C.
lifoar'the defence of
there were about 30,000 Queen's troops
auxiliaries to the
the Indian empire ; but these onlyworex.
es,
and cr
btiedaern.c)o ;Tihfeint
ii and remained
native army. They went out lIS
Wellington said with referenoceways
army in
be regarded as auxi-
vB;7
ttohpei
e, Duke
~T "The
such, their stay being usually shotarotu.thilenvle
Queen's army are and must I
was this the effect of merevosp
work of any theory? No; like the
liaties, and auxiliaries only,
its present condition
the country, it ❑
grow up and was altered
?dia,naraeremthyi.e"
best institutions of
of circa
,instances required. It commenced
(Hear.) It was v. fabric
speculation ltahtei olnn
as the exigency -- • gradually increased, and alight
from small beg n
hundred years. With it was
eeffiohfacdiaennhcouyan.rmy_there w imprudence,
were idennints constitution till at last it arrived
v? reared a r itsnefgod Pell changes
present
thent
an statea
INV
. s.dr
e(..names wisdom
and mighty interests. That fabric
oma :
might
ihceit:
bt en
neddanipaitfoujuvii gleeebd:ht!,
tuno.rdw nt 0
snhdo
Ny destroyed
th e jealousy
0 it), ys
yt
thatfahoe
e
ireeer:sei
sawtleeeduhs lae:s
(aHear, hear.) In the early periods
European. and aPPrehensious in the way. The first soldiers
the descendants
wore few in number, and they were
nia• We had
aithiegnhtnostate that the first we employed were
borognatnitlsiae.
of Portuguese, who were called. " topasses."
' —e
middle of the last century, however, we got into disputes
with the native princes, and then commenced theA
At first there were only three Bri-
tuisohn
officers
ttoiveaarremgyim.
ent, and the Indian army had no
rooffigicmerohnotlwdiansgftohremliedi,nhg'es coimission till 1780. The first
Battle of Plassy, under Lordbelieved in 1750, and was at the
and constitution of the army aesiiivten.
owSuocxhistweadsinthlenotgi—n
Majesty's troops,
India—
n separate and distinct 1
periods of service. Itlemi
local army, having the aid of her
gwhotrebechsaaintedwhayftceorupidarwtieenlnoatr
be
alocal Indianwahrm. y which would at the same time
a royal army ? This raised the question, ought the
army to be transferred to the Crown? His honourable
friend said he would change it from being a local army, and
thereby add to its honour, dignity, and consequence. . He
As
contended that the effect would be exactly the reverse.
such
as no other army could exceed. I
an Indian army it had acquired glory and_
of having the die-
distinction
,
U army, ,f we ad
ransferred it to
transferred
nction of being a separate
of local army—it might
nste
the Crown it would become a kind
its
its p
b ta,
or a West India regi.
ecoe a sort of Ceyln regis,nai
th p
ell restige and
mentm, but we would doo ,5'
in reply to questions put to him on this subject by the Pre-
sident Control, first spoke of the separation
glory. (Hear, hear.) In 1832 Mountstewart Elphinstone,
of the Board of civil
of the two governments, the from the military, as
follows :
" The separation of the civil government from the mili-
lrl robably not answer in any country but least
The great problem there has always been
tart' won.— p
of all in India.
to maintain the subordination of the military power to'he
civil, and to prevent clashing between the governors and
commanders-in-chief. In this we have sot always been