The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-28 00:00:00

E SUN, LONDON, WEDNtSDAt _EVENING, M_ARCH. 28,
_1855,

case in the 63d Regiment. A captaincy became vacant;
which in justicck ought to have been given to the senior lieu-
tenant, Christopher Magnay, Who had been promoted to his
lieutcnantcy in March, 1852, and subsequently went out with
liis regiment to the Crimea, and endured all the fatigues and
hardships of the siege of Sebastopol. But instead of this
officer receiving the boon ho had so well deserved, an officer
had been promoted over his head from the half-pay, in Jan.,
1855. Another gentleman who had retired from the service
in disgust, wrote to him that he had entered the 54th Regi-
ment as ensign in 1829; and it was not until 1841, after twelve
and a half Years' service, during which he had seen manypromot-
ed over his head, that h 3 became senior lieutenant by purchase.
After seventeen years he 'obtained a captaincy without pur-
chas3, and finally retired on the brevet of 1854, in which he
was not included. Ho contended that the system of purchase

A•as injurious to the service, and unfair to the soldier, but
what ho most complained of was the system of paying large
smug over the regulation prices. Unless the individual who
wished to purchase was ready to do this, he must be
content to see his comrades turn the cold shoulder to him,

as stopping promotion in the regitnent. The historian Alison,
in speaking of the comparative state of the French and English

~,
armies in the Peninsular war, expressed an opinion that the
system .°f promotion by merit, and the consequent certainty
of advance in life to the individuals obtaining it, at once kept
alive the military spirit and insured the inestimable advan-
tage of tried valour and skill among all tho .officers in the
field, on whom the efficiency of an army must at all times de-
pend. This was the system on which the French army was or-
ganised in the revolutionary war, whereas in the English army
the officers were separated from the soldiereby an almost im-
passable line. It was pretendcdthat under the system of pur-
chase it was a great boon to the sergeant who was promoted
to be a commissioned officer, to obtain the price of the com-
mission on selling out ; but the truth was that the Horse
Guards were not so ready to allow persons to realise. He
knew a case of an officer who had served 20 years in India
who came back to England in an indifferent state of health,
and whose request to be allowed to sell out was denied by
the Horse Guards, because, they said, they knew his health
was iu such a delicate state that he must soon die, and his
commission would fall in. This mightseem almost incredible,
but he was in possession of the name and allthecircumstances.
He must condemn with equal earnestness the system of 1
- favouritism which pervaded all the appointments of the
army. First, as to the staff officers, who ought to have
a perfect knowledge of their profession, because they were
' entrusted with the orders of the general in com-
mand, their appointment at present really depended on the
length of their purse or the closeness of the affinity they
could trace to the commander-in-chief or the general officer to
whom they were attached. With respect to the medical de-
partment late occurrences had shown the great deficiency of
medical skill in the Crimea. Many of the medical men had
been worked to death, and now they were sending out raw
students to take their places. Another point, on which he
need not dwell, wasthe miserably inefficient state of the com-
missariat. He wished for a commiVee to decide whether the
system was injurious or not.. His belief was that unless the
system of military administration was properly investigated
and thoroughly. reformed; there would arise au expression of
the voice of public opinion to which it would be necessary for
Government to give attention.
Captain SCOBELL seconded the motion. They had seen in 1'
the present campaign a 'flee and gallant army melting away
under the disasters which had overtaken it. He.did not want
to pronounee whether the cause of those disasters was the
improper distribution of patronage or not ; but one fact was
unoeniable, that there were many colonels and majors in the
army who were far the juniors of others serving under them;
and it was not likely that inexperienced men were compe
tent to be' the leaders of those who had seen much service.
Under the present system commissions were, in fact, put up
to auction, the commander-in-chief being the auctioneer.
If it were true that every colonel who went into action had
10,j4/01. round his neck, could this be a right system, or
could they think themselves justified in exposing a man
whci had laid out suoh a sum in fighting his way up
to his rank to the risks incurred in action ? It was true
the commissariat officers did not purchase their way up, but
they got on by influence-, -often- to the exclusion of better
:nen. .In the artillery and engineers it was true a different
system was followed, because there scientific skill was indis-
pensable. Ho contended that the Government, were nothing
but the trustees of the public in dispensing their patronage,
awl any man who neglected the duty of promoting merit be-
trayed his trust, and was answerable to the country for his
conduct. He hoped the attention of Government would be
directed to the establishment of an order of merit, because at
present no officer could be appointed who was under the rank
of major.

Cefenel HARCOURT wished particularly to address him-
self to that part of the motion which related to thelpromo-
tion of non-commissioned officers to the rank of officer. On the
other points embraced in these resolutions he would only say
that it was only from the system of purchase that the officers
of the army could derive the slightest hopes of promotion.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the point to which he wished
more especially to refer, he very much regretted that upon
the occasions when this subject had been brought before the
house those who had addressed them had shown themselves
exceedingly ignorant of the practical bearings of the present
system. It seemed extraordinary that when the present
system had raised this country, to a pitch of glory such as no
1 other country had ever reached this should be the moment
chosen for attacks upon it. Could that system which had
been illustrated by the victories of the Peninsula, of Water-
loo, of India, and of Alma and of Inkerman be so bad as had
been represented by gentlemen on the other side of the
house ?, (Hear, hear.) He contended that tho social position
of the non-commissioned officers of the army was such that
promotion to the rank of an officer would be most inconve-
nient, and even injurious to them. The soldiers of the line
were mostly taken from the agricultural population. , Now,
supposing that these men had received the average education
communicated in a good national school—which was too
favourable a supposition—they would not be able to do more
than read and write, do the ordinary rules of arithmetic, and
possess the most elementary knowledge of geography. Now
suppose that, after serving as private and corporal, he
had been selected from his proved intelligence and good
conduct for the position of sergeant-major, at which he
could only arrive, during time of peace, under the age of
thirty to thirty-ave. Well. that was the earliest age at which
he could put in claim for a commission. With whom, then,
would he be placed in collocation ? He would be placed in
jux.'`aposition with ensigns of seventeen and eighteen years of
ay. Did they think that it would conduce to the happiness
of the promoted sergeant-major, placed immediately in con-
tact with a man so much his junior but yet knowing so much
more than he did ? (Hear.) Then there was another point.
It did not always follow that, because a man was a man of in-
telligence and good conduct, and one whom it might
be desirable to promote, that his wife was the better half.
(Hear, hear.) The wives of the non-commissioned officers
were frequently persons of very inferior education. They
very often could not read or write ; and ho did not think
that under these circumstances it would benefit them to raise
them to the rank of gentlewomen. (Hear, hear.) There
was in his own regiment a most valuable officer who had been
promoted from the ranks, and who had held the office of
quartermaster for the last forty years. That gallant officer
told him that he thought the promotions of sergeants to the
rank of commissioned officers, which had taken place in the
Crimea, would not be advantageous to these men on account
of their want of education. The same officer pointed out to
him that it was often a most serious inconvenience to a non-
commissioned officer to be promoted, because the pay of an
ensign was not, if he was married, sufficient to enable him to
support his wife and family in comfort in the rank to which
he was raised. This quartermaster told him that be knew a
case in which a man who was promoted to an ensigncy in the
71st Regiment, died of a broken heart from the difficulties
and embarrassments into which he fell from this cause.
(Hear, hear.) This was, in fact, the reason why the commis-
sions which had been given to the non-commissioned officers
in the army had not always been giien to the senior ser-
geants. The ensigncy awarded to the Grenadier Guards had
been given to one of the junior sergeants, and he was told
that it was because he, being an unmarried man, could afford
to take it, while next) of the senior sergeants, who were mar-
ried men, cared to have it. (Hear, hear.) It might be a
very popular cry to say that these men should be pro-
moted, but he did not think that so long as our army was
recruited from persons of that rank in life which now fur-
Lishad the privates and non-commissioned officers, and as
long as the latter had only their present amount of educa-
F tiou, that such a step would be really advantageous to the
men themselves. There were, however, many things they
might do which would be really serviceable to them, and
thes ) measures he thought every consideration of justice to
the service called upon them to adopt. lie thought that an
order of merit, with pensions to its members, should be
founded ; and that the appointments in the Tower should be
givea entirely to retired non-commissioned officers. Then there
was another point to which he must call the attention of the
hone., although it was not his desire to restrict the patronage
of the Crown, and particularly of such a Sovereign as the
present. The Yeomen of the Guard and the Gentlemen
Pensioners were both the body guard of her Majesty ; and
yet Mr. Sams, the librarian, of St. James's-street, was one of
the Gentlemen Pensioners. He thought that was not a
situation which should be held by such men. He did not,
as he had said, wish to interfere with her Majesty's patronage,
but he did wish that the vacancies in this force should be
filled up on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief
rather than of Lord Foley. Before he sat down he could not
help commenting upon the injustice of those who talked of
the soldiers fighting under the cold shade of the aristocracy.
Was this a tine for us to be told this when we had fresh in
our recollection, and almost before our eyes, the gallant cavalry
charge of l3alaklava, headed by the Earl of Cardigan- -the
heroic conduct of a scion of the house of Percy, who at Inker-
man plunged alone into the thickest of the fight, and by his
single efforts extricated 50 or GO of his regiment who had
charged too far down the hill, and had got themselves sur-
rounded by the enemy ; and theenot less gallant bearing on
the same day of Colonel Cadogan, another aristocratic name ?
(Hear, hear) He was surprised that the noble viscount
(Viscount Goderich), who used these expressions on a former
evening, did not feel his own noble blood mantle in his
ulieeks at these attacks on his order. He should oppose the
committee moved for by the gallant major opposite, because
he did not think it a fit tribunal • for the consideration of
this question ; but he would suggest to the noble lord at
the head of the Government the propriety of appointing a
commission to take into their most serious -attention the
points to which he had referred. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. ALCOCK said that in the army vacancies caused by
death were filled according to seniority, and those who had
read the report of the army and navy commission which sat
in the year 1840 perhaps imagined that the same system was
pursued in the navy. That 'report was, however, a mockery,
a delusion, and a sham, and it should either be no longer hekl
forth as an authority or Government should alter the whole
system. He hoped the latter would be the case. He did not
blame Sir Charles Napier or any other commander for the man-
ner in which promotions were now made. He charged the
whole fault where he believed it ought to rest—upon the
system.
Col. LINDSAY said it was one thing to abolish the old sys-
tem, and another to create a new enc. The system new under
discussion had been part and parcel of the British army for a
great number of years, and it was matter of surprise that the
mover of the resolution had not attempted testate what system
he
iw)reoumblot
siounbstitute in its' stead. He contended that the plan
by purchase was' at. once beneficial to the state
and to the army, was beneficial to the state inasmuch as it
lirta':,,,,t.lilebTneeatinesiaynelf savingthe
a considerable sum of money, while
ofietb service, because it brought officers
sPeedilYto the head
were to he abolished, theywvould require to increase the charge
for the retired full pay,
would add materially to the
expenses of the state.
aTthtebepirecebsent system was likewise bale-
pweannslosof being accused of para-
fieial to the rich, and
those officers who were unable
dos, ho would contend that it was
beneficial to the poor.
their pronao.tion. somehow or other attained the
Under the system of Purchase
to retire from
to p ty for
the army, they had
eke;
!r_to sell their commissionn'
head of the list, and liitaisnin.tt
ectiocruiee,ao if they
chose
nevertheless the money in then. p 0
_cersl.tnaieas a trite remark, but
e a true one, that ill st w when they entered of purchase.was in oxistence and
complain if it exposed the ,
m to nin
therefore they could not con3l
the army that the system
it was a mistake to rt,t,-
bysu` r ---°
that all promotions in the army
degree of hardship. Moreover,
wereobtained
purehme.
months which had passed of the present year 2 lieutenant-
The very reverse was the fact. For example, in the three
colonels had been promoted by purchase,
it ; 42 captains by
o,an d 47 without it ;
7 majors by purch se, and 17 without
purchase, 86 without it. So it had been at all times and in all
ranks of the British army, and it was clear, therefore, that

the systemro( 'purchase was not withauF numerous and he
would say' beneficial exceptions. He - trusted the house
would not disturb the arrangement recommended by the
commission of last year. He had long been an advocate for
examination, both for admission into the army in the first
instance, and for promotion ono or two grades afterwards ;
bat he was constrained to add that the system of examina-
tion, as hitherto conducted, had been a perfect humbug.
He knew one person who had been refused a commission be-
cause he was not a proficient in French. It was very easy to
reeo"nise and reward merit in a time of war ; but it would
be extremely difficult to do so in a time of peace: At all
periods it would be easy to ascertain the literary merits of
an officer; but a man might bo a good scholar and yet be
totally deficient in all those qualities which were essential in
an able and efficient officer. But be that as it might, he did
not think there was any incompatibility between the systems
of purchase and of merit, and ho was strongly impressed with
the conviction that a judicious combination of the two would
be found advantageous both to the service and the country
generally.
Colonel NORTH said the hon. and gallant member who
movedikte resolution had been rather unfair towards Lord
Merlins,: in connection with the case of Lieut. Brown, of the
95th, recommended for promotion by Lord Raglan. The truth
was that the recommendation had arrived at the Horse
Guards too late, but Lord Hardingo had intimated to the
Commander-in-Chief in the Crimea that Lieut. Brown would
be promoted at the earliest convenient opportunity. Ho was
glad to say that the relations existing between the officers of
the army and the private soldiers were of the most gratifying
character, and he should be exceedingly sorry to see them
disturbed in any way whatever. With respect to the system
of promotion by purehase, he could not agree in the ro-
merks which had been made by the hon. and gallant member
for Westminster, and he did not think that if the system of
promotion by merit were established tomorrow the best offi-
cers would, in even the majority of cases, be elevated to the
higher ranks in the army.
Mr. W. 'WILLIAMS said it was a curious and significant
fact that all the members of the staff in the Crimea had been
recommended for promotion, whereas the men who had
f ught the battles had been entirely overlooked. That
was the system of which ho complained. What they
wanted was, that which should be found most qualified to
promote the efficiency of the army. If it should be found
that the system of promotion by purchase was the most
fitted for the promotion of that object, then let that system
continue in operation. What the couutry complained of
was, that it was only the men of rank, of connection, and of
interest, who had the good fortune to obtain advancement
in the army. The gallantry of those men was undisputed;
their gallantry was equal to other men's, and other men's was
equal to theirs--(hear)—but, unless the existing system were
changed, dissatisfaction would go on ripening in the country,
till the army would become unpopular—a result which no one
desired to see.
Col. LINDSAY wished to correct a misstatement that had
been made. In the Guards: 4,8001. was paid for a lieutenant-
eolonelcy ; the price in the line was 4,0001.
Colonel KNOX rose to make some remarks on the subject
of the promotien given to staff officers after the battle of
Inkerman, and he should for once be obliged to agree with
the honourable member for Lambeth. (Hear, hear.) The re-
turn of those promotions needed little or no comment from a
military man like himself— (Hear, hear)—it was a most sur-
prising return, for it was known that many of the officers
promoted were not in action or under fire on that occasion at
all. (Hear.) The officers promoted for being senior amounted
to 25 ; these promoted for being staff officers were 5 i. (Hear. )
He made. these remarks from no bad feeling towards any
officer in the Crimea. Then there, were four junior major-
generals to whom regiments were given, a step which, with
all due deference to the authorities who recommended it, he
considered to be a great injustice to old and meritorious offi-
cers who had served in the Peninsular war. (Cheers.) If it
were desired to remunerate the four officers in question
for distinguished services, they should have been rewarded by
the payment of a sum of money in the meantime, which
sum should have lapsed when their turn for promotion came.
A regiment and pay as a general officer was equal to 1,0001.
a year ; a mejor.general's pay was but 4001. With regard
to the motion before the house, he did not think the honour-
able member was likely to gain much by it. If anything was
to be done he thought it should be done by a commission to
consider the whole matter, under the authority of the Crown,
but, in any case, he did not think the present was the proper
moment for any motion of the kind.
Mr. LAING said that at this time last year the country was
under the pleasing delusion that they had an army which, if
not large, was at least well fitted for its purposes; but the
events in the Crimea had shown that though its gallantry was
the same as ever, still, taken as a whole, it w is very far defi-
cient in those qualities they had a right to expect. That was
the reason why he thought the present moment peculiarly
well fitted for an inquiry of the kind. The question of offi-
cering the army by purchase was, under our present circum-
stances, not merely a money question ; but if the matter were
allowed to stand over a few years the pecuniary element would
come again into play, and oppose serious obstacles to any
alteration. For nearly half a century back public opinion, in
deference to the Duke of Wellington, was never for one mo-
ment brought to bear upon the constitution and organisation
of the army. The consequence was that they now found the
army constituted in a manner which might certainly bo said
to be repugnant to those principles of common sense on which
it ought to be constituted. The present time was a very
fitting one for a thorough and comprehensive inquiry not into
this or that branch of the subject, but into thcwhole question
of the officering of the British army. On the occasion of a
recent debate a remarkable opinion was emitted by the noble
lord now at the head of her Majesty's Grevernment in favour
of an educational test to be applied to officers, A/similar
opinion was prefessed by the honourable member for Wilt-
shire, the late. Secretary-at-War, and also by the hon. and
gallant member for Westminster (Gen. Sir De Lacy Evans),
whose opinion was one of the highest authority, he having
commanded not brigades merely, but independent armies in
two or three consecutive campaigns. ,Let them look at the
system in force in the Austrian army, one officered almost
exclusively by gentlemen. Let them turn their eyes, also, to
the Sardinian army. The late campaign against Austria hav-
ing shown the Sardinians that their army was a deficient in-
strument for the practical purposes of war, they set to work
to see how they could make it more efficient. They sent a
commission to examine the constitution of all the armies of
Europe—that of England among the rest—and the result
was, not the establishment of a system of purchase, but the
establishment of a system in which they retained the officer-
ing of the army in the hands of the gentry, at the same time
introducing a system of promotion from the ranks, with an
educatiowdl test of greet stringency as a criterion of fitness for
such promotion. One result of our present system was that
no man could enter the army, and adopt it as a professsion,
unless he had at least some 6,0001. at his disposal, which he
could afford to invest in a speculation procuring him no com-
mercial return, and in which he ran a great risk of losing all
his capital, for in the event of death there was no return of
any part of the sum originally sunk. The army was thus
limited to the wealthy classes. He knew, of his own know-
ledge, the case of two young men at Sandhurst, the first of
whom, A, passed a first-class examination, and the second,
B, a good examination. They were both appointed at
the same time, and the second got a better appointment
than the first, though he bad not passed the best exami-
nation. When they were appointed lieutenants the rank
they got was equal. When they came to be appointed
captains, A, who was at the top of the list, had not enough
money by him. B had the money, and so passed over his
head. A had since become a broken-hearted man, lost to
himself, and lost to his eonntry. (Cheers.) Another effect
of the present system was that it rendered the officers mere
amateur officers. They took up the army as au agreeable
amusement, not as a profession, and did not make their regi-
ments their homes. But if the business of the army consisted
in the management of practical details about feeding, cloth-
ing, and butting the men, those officers, though admirable in
respect of gallantry, were deficient in respect of other quali-
ties not less necessary. The experience of what had recently
occurred proved that the army was deficiently officered in those
respects. (No, no, and cheers.) At alrevents, the matter
was a fair subject for inquiry. But there was a still more im-
portant point on which he had not yet touched. In all other
professions and employments the one test of efficiency and
success was promotion by merit. That was the mainspring
of all efficiency and excellence. It' a merchant were to confide
his business to clerks appointed not according to merit, but
by a system of purchase, he should like to know how long it
would be ere that merchant appeared in the Gazette. If rail-
way trains were confided to the care of servants appointed in
the same way, be wondered how many directors would have
actions for manslaughter brought against them. In law, in
medicine, and in the church, a career was always open to merit,
and the greatest possible advantage accrued to all classes, and
to the gentlemen themselves, from the honourable emulation
awl competition inspired among thorn. Another inVortant
question was, how they were to get men for their army. At
the present moment it could notfairly be said that the army
was popular with the great mass of the middle and working
classes ; for a father always heard that his son had entered it
with a feeling of regret, and even of shame. (Hear.) The
objections made to any alteration in the system of purchase
resolved themselves mainly into the difficulty of finding a sub-
stitute fey it. That might be a forcible enough argument, if
the motion before the house were one to abolish the present
system altogether, but not so when the motion was simply for
inquiry. The time was come when Government ought to take
the matter up, and institute a general and comprehensive in-
quiry into the system of officering our army ; when an at-
tempt should be made to eradicate those evils and place our
army on a more popular footing, a footing on which the mili-
tary career might be open to talent, in which money would
not be the sole test of capacity, by which the army might be
composed of gentlemen, but of poor gentlemen, who would
study it, attach themselves to it, and make themselves
thorough practical officers. Combined with that they might
have au amount of promotion from the ranks sufecient to ren-
der the army popular, and to throw open the career of arms to
a larger class of the community than at present. (Cheers.)
Lord LOVAINE observed that in his opinion no case had
been made out as yet for the destruition of a system which
had been found to work so well. He did not think that it was
possible to introduce that unity of action which had been
talked about into the army as it was into a railway system.
To accuse the officers of the British army of being inca-.
pable of performing their duties was most unwarrantable, and
one which ought never to have been made in that house. The
faults which had been laid to the charge of the regimental
hfficers were due to those who had been removed beyond the
purchase system. He was also eonvinced that the abolition
of this system would increase the slowness of promotion which
had been so much complained of. It was, however, no use
explaining the question to hon. members whom it was impos-
sible to please, and who were continually bringing forward
the scoria crambe repetita, awl the same clap traps about
long purses and similar matters. When the British army was
compared with foreign armies one little item was omitted.
It must be remembered that the British army alone was not
raised by conscription, and that a different system must neces-
sarily take place ; but, however that might be, the slowness
of promotion was complained of in all armies ; and with re-
spect to merit and favour it would be found that in this coun-
try they ran so completely into one another that it would be
found extremely difficult to divide them. The promotion in
the navy was supposed to be carried on by merit, but it did
not appear that promotion in the navy was any more satis-
factory than promotion in the army. It was aho said that
the army was unpopular. That remark might bo very beauti-
ful in theory, but it was contradicted by facts, for—as he bad
no doubt the Admiralty would bear witness—recruits for the
army were much more easily obtained than men for the navy.
Great complaints had been made of several of the depart-
ments. The medical staff, for instance, ho considered had
been very hardly used. They had been overworked, and if
they had failed, they had fai!ed under circumstances which
were unparalleled. The Commissariat had been annihilated by
the economy of the House of Commons, and there had been
only one old man left in the department who was at all ac-
quainted with its working or routine. It would never do to
compare the British army with foreign armies which had been
constantly fighting in foreign countries. Nothing was easier
than to find fault, but it was very difficult to make the truth
appear to the public when there was an appearance of great
deficiency in particular points, He thought that it was not
wise to cuter into such discussions in the midst of a war, and
he should vote against the motion.
Lord SEYMOUR said that they were in the habit of talk-
ing in grand style about Russia and Austria, and how Poland
and the distressed nationalities were to be dealt with ; but in
a little time they soon came to talk more gravely. An hon.
and gallant membergot up and said that the army was utterly
disorganised, and must be reconstituted de novo. This was
rather a curious contrast to a former debate. The hon. mem-
ber had complained rather of the course of promotion thou of

any part of .the • service; which was attributed to the, syst
of purchase. He (Lord Seymour) believed that on inquiry the
system of purchase would be found to have very little to do
with it. He had no, preference for the system of pairchase--.
quite the contrary ; but when he was told that it must be
done away with, and the system of promotion by merit insti-
tuted, he naturally wished to know what was meant by that.
Was it to belong to the officer commanding the army ? (Hear,
hear, bee'.) Look at the doff All the recent promotions
on thastair loir that officer had been loudly complained of.
Was it to belong to Government He should pity any unfor-
tunate Government which took into its hands a system of pro-
motion by merit. If any officer was looked over for any rea-
sou, ho would have ten friends in the house who would get
up and defend him, and the house would have to do nothing
else but discuss individual merits. The system had been tried
in the navy. What had stopped it I The influence of the
House of Commons, which cried out for seniority, because de-
serving men were passed over. It would always happen so
iu a representative government. It might Nave been easy
enough for Napoleon, at the head of his army, to select men
by merit; but, even under his favourable circumstances, he
found it extremely difficult, and it led to such jealousies
amongst his officers that it was the cause of maany of his dif-
ficulties, if not of his defeat, in Spain. (Hear.) That was
under the most favourable conditions. In time of war it was
difficult enough, but what became of it in time of peace ? In
the Commissariat there had been a period of probation most
strictly guarded, and no candidate was promoted until he had
been strictly proved. He had no doubt the appointments had
been most fairly made ; but it was most difficult in time of
peace to choose men for qualities useful in time of war. Lord
Raglan told the army committee that it was impossible to
make a commissariat in time of peace for a time of war. As
far as the accounts went they would be efficient, but for
other duties it was impossible to prepare them. He
(Lord Seymour) thought that statement was founded on
truth. If the purchase system were abolished there must be
a closing period for service at a certain age. Would there
be no attempts in that house to make exceptions in favour of
men who were able and hearty ? Indeed, it was absurd to
say that a man must retire at a certain time of life. They
had, however, been told that the purchase system had failed.
Now, he thought quite the contrary, for he believed that the
officers had discharged their duties most admirably. (Hear.)
They had the experience of the artillery, in which the want of
promotion by purchase had been loudly complained of, and
the a• my committee were told that in no branch of the ser-
vice were there 13J many aged and infirm officers. Why,
therefore, should that system be generally adopted which had
been found to fail in the artillery ? The Duke of Wellington,
in 1833, had in the artillery set aside the system so far as to
allow a number of officers to sell out in order to iefuse tome
new blood into the service, and-in fact had adopted the sys-
tem of purchase to that case, so far as selling out was con-
cerned. There had been several full inquiries ante the'ques-
tion, and their reports were in the libraryewhich would enable
hon. members to arrive at some definite result He objected
to the speech of the hon, and gallant member for Westminster
the other night. He had commanded a division with great
and distinguished success; but it was impossible not to feel
that they were hearing, not the general of division, but the
member for Westminster, and that. the member for West-
minster interfered with the views which the general of
division would have taken. He must also object to the
terms of the motion, whic'a rather begged the question, for it
directed the committee to take care add recommend a more
efficient system. The result, therefore, was anticipated, and
why take the trouble of making another blue book. (Hear,
hear)? He should vote against the motion, for he did not
think that there were any grounds for granting a committee.
Mr. LOWE quite agreed with the noble lord that the ques-
tloa was au emiaeetly practical one, and that it was quite
right that before hon, gentlemen presumed to address the
house on this question tfiey should have made themselves
acquainted with the documents referred to by the noble lord.
He (Mr. Lowe) had done so, and, as a civilian, he wished to
take this opportunity of stating the impression which those
documents-had left on his mind. After a careful considera-
tion of them, it appeared to him expedient that the committee
should be granted, and he would proceed to state his reasons
as shortly as possible. In the first place, the committees and
the commissions were all held under circumstances disadvan-
tageous to a fair and impartial consideration of the subject
They were held at a time when the Duke of Wellington exer-
cised an overpowering influence on the affairs of the army.
If any one would examine the evidence, he would see that the
witnesses were overpowered by the weight of that eminent
man. They did not take the trouble to address the committee,
but to every question it was answered, " Your grace knows
this ;" " My opinions agree with your grace's. ' They had
since lost that great man, and a great and irreparable
loss he was to the country, and the subject might be
now considered without the overpowering weight of his
influence and character. It appeared that there wore three
several methods of promotion—by seniority, by purchase,
and by favour. That aere are three methods alone
appeared to be a ground for inquiry. They could not all ba
equally good, and it was worth while to know which was the
best. He maintained this proposition, that whatever merits
or defects there might be in each of these systems, they were
employed at such a disadvantage that the good was minimised
and the evil maximised, as much as possible. The greet merit
of the system of seniority was, that whatever its collateral
evils were, it did justice between non and man; whatever
were its merits or defects, it was fair to individuals, but fatal
to the service ; for, whilst it opened, places, it opened them
to men who were least fitted to discharge the duties of those
places, as well as to those who were fitted, and it moreover
encumbered it with old and wort-out men. When, there-
fore, ought the seniority system to be applied ? When the
men were old or young ? When trey were less likely to be-
come old and worn-out ? if senicrity was to be the rule, it
should be applied to the junior ranks in the service. Rut in
practice it was banished almos; entirely from the junior
branches, where the promotion took place 'partly by pur-
chase, and partly. by favour on death vacancies, and given
to the senior branches. So that the principle of seniority
was used at the greatest possible mechanical disadvantage.
The next was the system of purchase, with its good and evil
points also. The good was, that it enabled inefficient men
to get out of the service, and in this meaner gave a relief to
the army from this class. He had never heard this system
advocated as good in itself, but only as an assistant to the
system of seniority, which would have been intolerable with-
out this relief by purchase.- The system of pin-chase ought,
therefore, to be applied when the men were worn out and
effete. It was, however, applied exactly in the reverse, when
the men were young, but when they were old-the system of
Iseniority was adopted. The third system was that of promo-
tion by favour. The evil of this system was, that the per-
sons who were appointed by favour might be unworthy ; the
good, that it gave facilities for appointing deserving persons
who had beenleft out by routine. In practice all these three sys-
tems were employed exactly at a time of life, and in branches
of the service when they were leas: likely to do good, and
most likely to do mischief. The next question was which of
these systems was the right one. He took it that nobody
would defend the system of seniority. The Royal Commis-
sion had recommended that in the higher ranks of the ser-
vice the most competent officers should be selected, and in
fact had come to the conclusion that, after the system was
constructed, when a Bush came another system must be re-
sorted to. After this solemn condemnation of this system
by her Majesty's commissioners, he did not think it worth
while to say anything more- Next with respect to purchase.
He had before pointed out the benefits and evils of this sys-
tem. It afforded no criterion of merit. Merit was the acci-
dent—the possession of money the substance. The one
might follow the other, or it might not, but that quality was
made the criterion of merit which had no connection with it.
Tha facility of leaving the service prevented men from regard-
ing it as a profession, and he believed that it was on this ac-
count that the officers of the English army, who were men of
education, and superior in position and advantages to those of
other armies—were so often inferior in military science.
What was the effect of the purchase system ? Why, directly
an officer began to feel the annoyance incidental to field life,
he wished to sell out; and that feeling, in a great measure,
would account for the number of applications which had been
addressed to Lord Raglan for leave toe quit the army in the
Crimea. Men whose courage it would be ridiculous to doubt,
because they had shown it again and again, were influenced
by thefeeliug that they had a right to sell what they bought,
and, naturally enough, they wished to withdraw from the
army, when they found the service) no longer a career of
pleasure, but a source of hardship and annoyance. But why
should the commander-in-chief be at liberty to fix the price of
commissions, in defiance of the law of demand and supply ?
To pay more than the price so fixed was a misdemeanor, and
by that rule of the service it would almost seem that officers
obtained their promotion through a series of misdemeanors
' It was said that commissions were no ter put up to auction ;
but while that might be strictly true iu fact, he appealed to
hon. and gallant members to state whether, when there were
three officers in a regiment open to purchase, was it not the
was ot
hirgtevaen
propertheo
bloo,
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modewtwh 000paf
rseucme
d dealingofed
with
e y
promotion
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oo n
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ioynf
tt
hh.
Now
at
whr
army
three practicen
him was exceedingly anxious that, where meritorious men
could be found, they should be promoted from the ranks ;
but what was the use of prothoting men from the ranks un-
less-you gave them the full benefit of their profession? It
was all very well for them to obtain such promotion in time
of war, when advancement might be rapid, but in time of
peace it was a mere mockery to tell the soldier you were
opening a career of honour to him by raising him from the
ranks, when the want of money closed it. If they wanted
to make the army a profession like law or medicine, they
must hit upon some device, not merely for promoting the
soldier from the ranks, but which should also make him
feel that his first promotion might lead to indefinite pro-
motion. What, then, was the remedy for the evils of
the existing system, for ho thought they were susceptible
of remedy, although perhaps the remedy might be difficult
and expensive ? The effort to remedy the evil was worth
making, becaue, in the present state of European affair', it
was absolutely necessary to maintaia the army in the highest
state of efficiency. 'ln order to compete with the great powers
of the world—and compete with them we must—the army
should have a thoroughly efficient organisation, which could
not be obtained under the purchase system. By establishing
that system, we had sold the' sword and buckler of the coun-
try ; but we must buy them back again, and substitute a system
which should be equal to the system of conscription. The abso-
lute conscription we could not have in a free country like this,
but we must have a system which would act as powerfully on
the will as the compulsory process. Now, no system could pos-
sibly do that which did not give the soldier who was properly
instructed in his duties a safe prospect of rising to the highest
honours of his profession. So far as the rank of captain went
he saw no objection to regulating the promotion by seniority,
provided always that the officer advanced had undergone an
examination sufficiently strict to satisfy any one that he was
fitted for the rank. Passing beyond the rank of captain
the real difficulty commenced, but he would suggest that
all officers above the rank of captain should be considered as
staff appointments, and that these staff appointments should
be, as now, in the patronage of the head of the army only,
Object to this condition, that they should be given to no
officer who had not been promoted for extraordinary gal-
lantry in the field, or who should hot have undergone such
an examination as to fit him for any staff appointment. For
the latter Purpose he would suggest that a board of examiners
should be held three or four times a year, and any officer in
the army should be allowed to go before them to test his fits.
ness for a staff appointment. Ho did not expect that great
genius would be secured by that means ; but he was firmly
convinced the plan would insure talent and efficiency. It
might not produce great generals, but it would provide able
officers, and it was, therefore worth the cost of trying. The
public would have to buy up the existing commissions for the
sake of carrying out the plan, and the cost might be on the
whole grievously heavy, but in his opinion any number of
millions would be well spent by a great and wealthy country
like this in order to organise an army worthy and capable of
protecting its wealth. But, said the noble lord who last ad-
dressed them, promotion by merit was impossible in a coun-
try like this ; it might be done in a foreign country, but it
could not be done here. Now, what did that statement
' amount to ? Why it amounted to this, that we were to fight
with foils while the enemy was to fight with swords ; it
amounted to this, that whereas a despot could have perfect
sympathy with the welfare of a country, a representative
government, a House of Commons, could have to such sym-
pathy ; aud while the Emperor Nicholas or the Emperor
Napoleon neither thought of friendship nor relationship when
selecting the best man to defend the honour and interests of
his country, Englishmen had so little patriotism, so little
regard for tho public good, as to prefer a system of job-
bery rather than sacrifice political connections and family
ties. (Hoar, hear.) The noble lord would almost seem to
perish
say—Let England if you will, but continue to
treat promotion in the army as a job; but until the

periment had been tried of promting by merit, he believed
no one had a right to say that a representative Government
was a failure in respect of army promotions. We should do
in the army what every man endeavoured to do in the man-
agetilent of his private affairs, viz., strive to get the best ser-
vants to serve us, and if we could not do that by resorting to
a system' of promotion based upon merit, and the question
should then come, " Shall England exist as an independent
State, or shall, the House of Commons be swept away ?" he
would say, if such a terrible alternative were offered to him,
" Rather perish the House of Commons, and let England be
independent." (Hear.)
Colonel DUNNE had listened with great attention to the
honourable gentleman opposite, but he was really unable to
discover what his v ewe were upon this question. The hou.
gentleman had given no clear explanation of how promotion
in the army should be conducted, but ho had told thein that
all former inquiries into its management were neutralised
by the spirit of the Duke of Wellington. Now, he believed
it was not the opinion of that great man that neutralised
the efforts of former commissions and 'committees, but the
spirit of economy, which was then the curse of the time ; and
for the same reason he belieVed now a committee of this house
would do very little good. No soldier would defend promo-
tion by purchase in the abstract ; but, before it could be abo-
, lisped, Parliament must vote large sums of money, not only
-to buy up the vested interests of existing officers holding com-
missions, but to increase the pay of officers in the army, which
he was afraid hon. members who supported this motion would
not be disposed to do when
.the pinch came. Why, at the
present moment the Government were actually selling com-
missions ou their own account, and yet nobody denounced it,
because the proceeds brought a balance to the Exchequer,
land tended to reduce the half-pay list. Well now, that
I just the feeling which stool iu the way of abolishing promo-
tion by purchase ; but still the fact was, the system was
I not to blame for our disasters in the Crimea, because
in spite of its many objections it had produced
good officers. It was not the system, then, to
which we must look for the cause of such disasters, but to the
shortcomh,gs and defects in the heads of departments at home
and abroad. No army iu the world could have gone through
so much as ours, not even the French army, who bad been
better supplied and better looked after ; but until there were
military men and competent men placed at the head of the
civil departments, the efficiency of the army could not be
thoroughly complete. He quite acknowledged that we had
got a bad system of promotion, and was quite ready to join
in any vote that would safely do away with it, but before they
could do that the house must be prepared to vote over five
millions of money for the purpose.
Lord PALMERSTON said—Sir, if every one of the seven
sleepers, whose history we have read—(a laugh)—could
haVe happened to wake_ up, after their many years' slumber,
and, being ignorant of what is passing in Europe, had come
suddenly into this house to be present at this debate, judging
from thd speeches we have heard,- they would have gone
away with the melancholy conviction that this country-had
sustained some great military disaster; and that we were on
the point of being conquered by some great military power,
and that this house, with Roman and Spartan fortitude, were
deliberating, in the midst of impending disasters, neon the
best means to be, adopted for saving the country. , (Hear.)
But what is the rose. state of things ? Has our army sus-
tained defeats in the field ? Have our officers shown them-
selves unequal to the duties which they have ".had to per-
form? Had we, as represented by my honourable friend
the member for Kidderminster, found the people of this
conntr unwilling to enlist themeelyee under the banner of
their Sovereign to vindicate the honour of the country and
to maintain the contest in whmli we aro engaged ? "Looking
at our army, we find that it has achieved as great success as
at anS former period of our history. Instead of finding the
people of this country hang back and shrink from the
engagement of the military service, there never was a time
at which so many brave men have offered themselves
to be enrolled in the ranks of our army. (Loud cheers.)
As far, therefore, as any, change is demanded for the purpose
of encouraging the people of this country to enlist, I say that
no change is required, because the enlistment is going on
with tile utmost rapidity, and with the greatest success
(Cheers.) But, then, it is said, that the system which now
exists is fatal to the army by depriving it of a proper supply
of regimental officers, for it is in regimental organisation, be
it observed, that this system of purchase exists. Now, I
undertake to say that there never was in the history of the
world a set of men who so nobly and efficiently perform their
duty as our regimental officers. (Cheers.) What is the test
of the conduct of officers? Why, it is, in the first place, to
obtain the good will of their men—it is not only to share
with their men . in the dangers of the fight, but to endure
with them all the privations and- sufferings into whiCh the
service may lead them. Now, I ask, have our officers ever
shrunk back in the field of battle Have they not led their
men to victory in conquests in which more honour and glory
have been reaped than almost ever fell to the fortune of arms
on any former occasion ? (Cheers.) I say that the manner
in which the men followed their officers, and the manner in
which the officers led the men proves that there existed
between them a community of feeling which is the result
' of reciprocal confidence- in each other, and which shows
that the officers are worthy of the men, as the men are worthy
of those who are placed at their head. (Cheers.) Well then,
have they shrunk from those sufferings and privations, which
never were exceeded, and which probably have been seldom,
if ever, equalled? Why, we know 'very well that the soldier
of the army in the Crimea, when asked about their own suffer-
ings, have said, "Well, it is true we are suffering much, but
our officers are sharing the. same suffering with us—they are
not so accustomed to hardshipi as we are, and while they are
suffering without complaint, it is not for us to be murmuring
at what we undergo." (Hear, hear.) So far as the motion
of the hon. and gallant gentleman is founded upon the expe-
rience of what the army is, I think that the grounds on which
he had attempted to place it, entirely fail. (Hear.) I ad-
mit, as I have done on a former occasion, that if we were
planning an army for the first time, it is not likely that we
should propose to establish it upon a system of purchase and
of sale. (Hear.) But there it is; and even those who have en-
deavoured to point out the evils which they attribute to the sys-
tem have shrunk when they came to the point from suggesting
theonly way in which it could be got rid of. The hoc, and gal-
lant gentleman who has brought forward the subject seemed
to steer studiously clear of making any suggestion as to what
method should be adopted to amend what he conceives to be
a vicious system. (Hear, hear.) But we all know that there
is only one way of getting rid .of it ; and that is in the man-
ner which has been suggested by others, namely, that the
country should buy up the commissions which have been
bought and paid for by the officers of the army. (Hear, hear.)
If the evils of the present system were so great and so preg-
nant in their consequences as to make it worth while to the
country to incur that large expense, it might be done. But
let not hon. gentlemen go away with any erroneous impres-
sion that such a system can be put an end to without a great
pecuniary sacrifice. Although the system is open to objec-
tion in point of principle, yet it is admitted by all that prat •
tically it is not without some advantages. The system of
promotion-by seniority leads to a great accumulation in the
higher ranks of the service of men who from age or infirmity
are incapable of performing the duties which belong to their
position. That is admitted to be a very great fault in those
branches of our service in which seniority alone exists, and
in which purchase and sale -do not exist—in the Artillery, for
instance, and to a certain degree in another branch of our
service. (Hear,) Now, in the service in which there is no
purchase and sale to remove those who are desirous of retir-
ing, the only way in which accumulations can be prevented
is by placing upon the retired list of pensioners to the State
those officers who reach a certain age, and who it must be
assumed from their ago are no longer fit for active duty
That system is adopted in France.l believe that, in the French
army, officers 65 years of ago are placed on the retired list,
and I remember hearing it said that when the regulation was
proposed to Louis Philippe he observed that he would adopt it
for the army, but he hoped that his Ministers would not advise
him to passes royal ordinance making it applicable to kings.
That system no doubt would, to some degree, exempt the
principle of seniority from the disadvantage of loading the
upper ranks in the army with a great number of men ad-
vanced in life ; but, on the other hand, it would entail a con-
siderable expense on the country, and would frequently de-
prive it of the service of men quite able to perform active and
professional duties. One great advantage which is represee-
ted as likely to accrue from the abolition of purchase and
sale is, that men would-be certain that promotion would go
by merit. Now in the navy there is no purchase and sale.
In the navy, therefore, we might expect to hear that the sys-
tem of promotion. was free from any possibility of cavil and
objection. (Hear.) But the moment the navy is mentioned,
up get naval officers, on both sides of the house and complain
that promotion all go by favour, or affection, or interest
(cheers)—by every mode, in short, except by a due apprecia-
tion of the merits of the respective candidates. That, then,
is the state to which the motion of the hon. and gallant gen-
tleman would tend to bring the army. The fact is, that when
you say that promotion should go by merit, nothing in the
world is easier than to make such an assertion; but nothing
in the world is more difficult than to carry such a system
into practice. If you would establish a rule that promotion
should go by stature—that no man should be promoted who
did not stand six feet high--(laughter)—that promotion
should go by physical qualities discernible by the eye, it
would be easy in that case to establish a rule, and to ensure
its most rigid execution. But what is merit ? Merit.
is opinion—merit is the opinion which ono man fornis of
another. Well, but the man with whom it may rest to
exercise a judgment forms his opinion of the merits of the
different candidates from the appointments which may be
vacant ; but his opinion is sure to be disputed by a great
many disinterested judges, and certain to be denied by all the
friends of the persons who are unsuccessful candidates on the
occasion. (Hear.) And, therefore, the idea that by any
human system merit can ensure the selection of persons for
appointments, civil or military, who shall be universally ac-
knowledged to be appointed for merit alone, is a Utopia which
it is perfectly vain for anybody to hopo to see established in
any country whatever. (Hear.) And it is a great mistake
to suppose that in the armies of the Continent no murmurs
arise, and that no fault is found—that in the French army,
'the Austrian army, the Russian army, the Prussian army,
every man is satisfied that every appointment is filled by the
most deserving, and that there exist no complaints on the
part of the unsuccessful candidates. (Hear.) If hon. members
labour under that impression, I can assure them that they are
mistaken, and that there are as many complaints that favour-
ritism and not merit leads to promotion as wo hear in this
house when these subjects are brought under discussion.
(Hear.) I am much disposed to agree with my hon, friend
the member for Kidderminster, who, reviewing the three sys-
tems by which promotion 'night take place—namely, pur-
chase, seniority, and merit—seemed to condemn each and all.
(Cheers and laughter.) He seemed to make out that they
hiswere all vicious ; and although he did not supply the thoueht
argument tended to show that you ought to abolisCall.,
What is to be substituted in their stead I do not know, unless
he imagines that a combination of the three would by some
chemical process neutralise the vicious propensities of each,
and bring forth a neutral salt. (Cheers and laughter.) I be-
lieve the fact to be that there is no such practical evil in our
regimental system as to render it absolutely necessary for the
country to make great sacrifices to get rid of it—that it could
not be got rid of without great sacrifices—and all that I think
desirable
is, that wo should lay the foundation for the more
'general instruction of our regimental officers iu those staff du-
ties which aro not to bo learned simply as a matter of form, but
the knowledge of which is essentially necessary for the good
conduct of operations in the field. When I deny that there has
be en any inefficiency on the part of the regimental officers, if I
am asked to what I attribute those sufferings which have, in some
degree, been endured by our army in the Crimea, I would rather
not give my opinion on that point, but remind the house that
there is a committee now employed in investigating those
very circumstances, and I must say I think the hon. and gal-
lant gentleman would do better to wait for the report of that
committee, which, no doubt, will probe the matter to the
bottom, and which -will tell you, when they have finished
their inquiries, the cause of those unfortunate mischances
which have occasioned so much sufferieg—unnecessary suf-
fering, in my opinion—to those gallant men who are row em-
ployed in the Crimea. I think the hon. and gallant gentle-
man has not laid down any sufficient ground to induce the
;house tq adopt the course which ho recommends. But I have
a further objection to his course of proceeding. Ithinkinitthise
not in harmony with the proper principles of our constitution,
(Hear.) After all is said and done, without meaning
least degree to question the power of this house to take into
its consideration any matters of poLlic interest, I beg them t 4
s
recollect that the command of the army is, by the eon t'tu
tion of the country, Tooted in the ro a;4 not ixt the

House of Commons. The motion of the hon. and gallant
gentleman - seems to be- founded on the assumption that the
command of the army is vested in the House of Commons,
and that a committee of this house is a proper tribunal to
consider matters purely regarding the practical administration
of that army. I think we are very apt to lose sight in soma
degree of our proper and useful functions. I do not think
there would be any advantage in appointing a committee to
take into consideration those questions connected with the in-
terior economy of our army. I think that such inquiries ought
to be made by a commission emanating from the Crown, and
reporting to the Crown,which report might afterwards be com-
municated to the house for any purposes for which the house
might require it. But I think this house is not the authority
which ought properly to institute any inquiries of this kind.
(Hear.) That being the opinion which I entertain on this
subject, I certainly cannot consent to the motion of the hon.
and gallant gentleman. The discussion which has taken
place may be useful in pointing out to the Government cer
tarn matters for consideration. I can assure the house that
her Majesty's Government will be always glad to bear sug-
gestions, and will anxiously desire to profit by them, as far as
they can do so consistently with the public advantage. But
with that reservation I must certainly give my opposition to
the motion of the honourable and gallant gentleman. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. RICH, who rose amidst loud cries of " divide," said
he was inclined to vote for the first portion of the resolution,
but trusted the honourable and gallant gentleman would
omit the second portion.

Mr. P. O'BRIEN said that, although ho did not pretend to
know much of military matters, still ho knew that the ex-
penses of an infantry or cavalry mess were such as to make it
a great hardship, in the present state of things, for any ser-
geant from the ranks to be promoted to the position of com-
missioned officer. This he thought—that at least it formed a
fitting object for inquiry by a select committee, and the
house ought not, therefore, to refuse the motion. At the
present time there was before the country the great and
glaring fact of the want of au efficient system of promotion in
the army, and the hon. and gallant member who had proposed
the appointment of a committee to inquire into that subject
was well deserving the support and sympathy of the house.
(Hear, hear.)
Major REED, having briefly replied, said ho should be
willing, if the house desired it, to omit from his resolution
the latter clause, which placed upon the committee the duty
of recommending a more efficient system for securing pro-
motion to merit and long service.

The original motion having been withdrawn, the resolution
as amended by the omission of the latter portion was put.
The house divided, when there appeared—

For the motion
Against it
Majority against the motion
TRADE WITH CHINA.

. 104
----31

Mr. HORSFALL moved an address for copies of all in-
structions having reference to trade, sent out by her Majesty's
Government to her Majesty's superintendent of trade in
China, subsequent to the tst day of February, 1834-; also, of
the correspondence subsequent to that date between her Ma-
jesty's Government and her Majesty's superintendent of trade,
having reference to British trade in China, up to the present
tare. He said that in 1851 disturbances broke out iu China,
and the British consul, Mr. Aleock, took on himself to inter-
fere in the collection of duties for the Chinese authorities.
The merchants here addressed themselves to the then Foreign
Minister (Lord PalmerstOn), who sent out instructions to our
consuls iu China not to interfere, Sir Samuel Bonham took
steps to make that determination of the Government known
to the Chinese Government. In tss3 disturbances ag,Ainloroke
out, and Consul Alcock again resorted to the plan of Collect-
ing the revenues for the Chinese. Bonds were given*with the
understanding that they should be levied on the traders of
all nations. Sir S. Bonham disapproved of 'that proceeding
of the consul. Then Sir John Bowring went out, and he esta-
blished consular courts to decide the quection, although he
knew that the.question was decided by the Government at
home. Sir John Bowring contended that the question rested
with him, while Lord Clarendon contended that the decision
rested with the British Government. The question which he
(Mr. Horsfall) desired to ask was, whether Sir J. Bowring
should submit to the Government, or the Government to him;
and why the bonds which had been given between the :ith of
February and July last had not been cancelled by Sir J. Bow-
ring in pursuance of the directi• La of Lord Clarendon to himy

Lord PALMERSTON said that the correspondence was still
going on. Sir JohnJ3owring had been called upon to make
a full report upon the subject of the bonds and all these trans-
actions ; and he suggested that, as it would be unadvisable to
produce an imperfect correspondence, the motion should be
withdrawn.

Mr. HORSFALL acceded to this suggestion, and the mo,
tiou was withdrawn.

MEMBERS' SEATS.

Mr. MUNTZ moved that the right of members attending
prayers to retain their seats should not be interrupted by a
division, commission, or conference.
Tho motion was not exactly in form, and
Lord PALMERSTON suggested that the hon. member
should confer with the Speaker upon the subject.
Mr. CItOSSLEY said that considering there were only
seats for half the members, the proposed rule might be pro-
ductive of inconvenience.

Mr. MUNTZ adopted the suggestion of Lord Palmerston;
and withdrew his motion.
THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
- - -

Mr. FREWEN rose to move, that upon Thursday, the 19th
day of April next, and every alternate Thursday, till the end
of May next, orders of the day shall take precedence of no-
tices of motions without giving priority to Gove nment
orders. This arrangement would, he thought, be fair to the
Government and to independent members.
Lord PALMERSTON suggested the postponement of the
motion until after Easter.
The motion was withdrawn.
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.

This bill was recommitted pro forma, with a view to its
being reprinted.

THE SARDINIAN LOAN.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER laid upon the
table the report of the resolution of the committee authoris-
ing a loan to 'the Sardinian Government. The report was
received, and leave was given to introduce a bill founded
upon that resolution