The National Register.
London, England, 1820-09-04 00:00:00

PROCEEDINGS

AGAINST HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN.

--1110--
HOUSE OF LORDS.
MONDAY, AUG. 28.

The Lords were called over at ten o'clock. The Earl
of Rearborough was unable to attend in consequence of
illness.—The Earl of Bridgwater was in a similar situ-

alien.
A very long debate ensued on the question of allowing

the goess's Cogent to

1 witnesses at first,

and afterwards have the privilege of recalling them.
Some Peers were opposed to this permission, but the ma-
jority were in favour of it. In the end, Counsel having
presented themselves at the Bar,
The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that he bad it In
command from the House to inform them, that it having

been proposed that the House should discharge the order

made on Satnrdaj, for hearing them en the mode of pro-
ceeding which was then adopted, and that the Counsel for
her Majesty should now proceed with the cross-examina-

Lion of the witness last before the Home in the usual way;

under this understanding, that they might afterwards
apply to have the witness re-examined, in consequence of
stay facts and eireumstances coming to their knowledge
pot presently knowu. His Lordship had it now also in
commuand from the House to say, that if the Counsel for
the Interests of her Haim), had any objection to make to
this Gouge of proceeding, the House were ready to hear
them.

Mr. BROUGHAM now commenced one of the most
eloquent and aritinsentarive speeches which has yet been
made in support of the ease for the Queen. The I
Counsel said, that homiest have felt under some difficulty
had be been called upon to state any course of proceeding
which was lass objectionable, or liable to fewer exceptions
then that now proposed to be followed by their Lord-
ships ; but that the diffieulty.was not great !jou bb was
called upon to say whether any objections existed to that
course of proceeding, and what those objections were.
lie would first of all beg leave to say, on the part of her
Majesty's Camel, In vindication of their interposing any
objection at all, that whatever difficnlty existed In the
ease, the difficulty was none of their making. Whatever
diecalties there were, be they many or few—whatever
obstacles now presented themselves, be they Treat or
smell, or even insurmountable—they did not arise from
an hull on the put of her Majesty's advisers. The party
Wing the hill—his Majesty's Attorney General—
hie MI way In every thing. The Counsel for
her Nllhtty had made many objections to the course of
pros rg followed, bnt it had always seemed good to
the wisdom and justice of their Lordships to reject every
suggestion of theirs, end to adopt the course proposed by
their opponents. If, after having done so, tin' House
found thintselves lit arty difficulty, he was entitled to say.
that that difficulty had arisen front rejecting the IIIIPPlIea•
lions made on thin pert of her Majesty ; and this it was
widish formed the strongest reason he could possibly urge
against the course of proceeding now proposed to be fol.
lowed. it caa a most cogent reason why at extraordinary
INdeloure should be splinted to the Counsel fur her
Majesty, that they hail been thwarted in every attempt
they had made to obtain whatever was ordinarily allowed
In all oases, whether civil or criminal !--(II• ar, hear!).
''trey had been drooled what was wanted in every case,
and therefore it was !bat they claimed indidgencies which
were called fur In no other cote. Their Lt,rdslilps had
Missed a list of witnesses, without her Majesty's Counsel
o'er having been heard iu 6014)401 nt' the demind for it—
the decision was made on a motion by one of their Lord-
ships' awn namher, Hut what welt still more evraorili-
nary, their Lordships had refused a speeitleativa of the
places where the alleged eats of crintiiiality bail taken
piece. In a case of High T 1046011 the indictment would
have stated the county where It would be proved the
erinto was committed I hut here the venue has alat'ad
over three quarters of the gloire--Eorepr. Asia. and
AtVioai In suns« one or other of the empires, Lisioluns,
provinces, cities, ports, low us, couulries, inhabited and
Yninbabtled wilikroeues, rivers, seas, etc. of the said
three quarters 01. the earth.-mil his it syxs which formed
the mast extraordinary of all Ilse pecoliarities to this
extraordinary prneeedini. The party accused knows out
when or where the crime with which she is eltarec't
alleged to have born culuonilled. This was the defence u:
Intmeenre,not of guilt, 11. :here weir guilt, a knowledge
of the pieces alight exist, snit, of enuir‘e, Nil Wet, of the
particular naisire 411.111 C '.baleenwould sitguest au"
because thee unused was Slot ht 110,1, plans, >ill4l oLoause
she was intioeritt, nu jutignierit could be funned as 1.. the
persons of the wilurillira, or the places of which they
spoke. Upon the demand their Lordships had also ile•
visaed without heat ing Counsel ; end, nut %whet 411411 Ni that
peculiarity of her al,..iesty's situation, and the
which the Hill of Nina arid Priorities hedetil hurie
tine advalllsgrs granted to other'. were di surd r.
Her Majesty's Counsel bad ventured to tour tude that

they had obtained die meaning of their Lordships' order;
that in lieu of the advantages denied, they were to have
certain advantages peculiar to the ease, devised by the
wisdom and justice of their Lordships, to Meet the diffi-
culties in which their Lordships' justice and wisdom had
placed her. It was little thought by her Majesty's Coun-
sel, that when those advantages came to be sifted, they
would be found to be the common advantages allowed in
all eoserts of justice, as matter of indisputable right.—ln
the case of the Duchess of Norfolk, all the advantages
here denied were granted. The Duke was called upon
to state the periods and places when and *here the acts
were said to have been committed. Her Proctor attended
at the bar of the !louse. On the 14th Janisary an order was
made by their Lordships upon the Duke to specify the
places and witnesses. On the 16th, the specification was
objected to, as of too general a nature. The same day the
objection was answered, mod a more particular specifica-
tion ordered. This leading case was that to which their
Lordships should look for a guidance in their proceedings.
To say that it was no authority was childish sporting.—
Upon that famous case, three or four witnesses swore di-
rectly to the fact of adultery; but, notwithstanding those
depositions (so material was the cross-examination, not
one word of which could have been given, except a spe-
cification of witnesses had been supplied, the evidence
was disetedited, and their Lordships threw out the Bill.)
How monstrous and crying an injustice was it to pretend
to found a denial of the advantages sought for upon the
practice of the Courts of Law ! Such was the way in
which they were desired to look into the Courts of West-
minster. Was the evidence to go forth to the Public
basely and malignantly misrepresented ? Suppose a wit-
nesigoes through a fair examination, such as we may say
the first witness underwent, yet under wind striking dis-
advantages does a Counsel labour in the cross-examina-
tion, who, until that moment, was ignorantof Isis existence
—name—place of residence—or the facts that he was
called on to praise. If their Lordships bad allowed a
list of witnesses, and a specification of. the places where
the crime was alleged to have been committed, and had
granted the two months delay asked byilie Counsel for
her Majesty. instead of sniFering the charges to go forth,
then they (the Counsel) would have bad nu difficulty, nor
would they have asked for any delay. To their Lord-
ships, however, it seemed good to do otherwise. Did
Noble Lords believe that there was such virtue in Counsel,
or such tunic in the dress they wore, that the moment a
witness comes awl states any thing, the Counsel may be
enabled from his appearance to know what he is, or wise
titer he speaks the truth or not? One injury in the pre at
ease was, that all the exanduatiofte atone side were pr.
milted to go forth and poison the public mind, and that
the Judges in this tribunal mixed infinitely more with the
Public than in ordinary . " Suppose, said the
Learned Counsel, that a mantle hence it is discovered
that A. B. a witness, has received a sum of money for
swearing against the Queen, nay, that the condition of his
receiving that suns was the conviction of her Majesty, and
Learued Lords knew how important it would be to prove
such a tact, yet I cannot do this, according to law, until
I have cross-examined the witness. I ask bins, did you
receive so and to? If he confesses, I gain my point; if he
denies it, then I bring forward my proof." The Laerned
Gentleman continued.—There were numberless ways to
impeach the credibility of a witness, and that of counter
declaration was very important His Learned Friends
on the opposite side, although they appeared here for
nobody, would not fail seising the advantages of which
they would thus become p d. Was it over kiiusvii,
since we had just Judges and bold Counsel, that the us-
titre of a cross examination should be stated before it
commenced? It so it was a mockery to call it a ci
examination ; it was asking for a permissioss which he
(the Counsel) would disdain to accept es a favour, butt
demand as a right front a Court of Justice; and yet their
Lordships appealed to those Courts, where uu Judge
would dare to refuse it. The Leartind Conii•el void,., the
astonishment of himself, and those who wet e engaged with
him, was as great as their disappointment, that all the
favourable anticipation raised by their Lortithips
be nothiug—that the cup of hope should be diluted from
their lips—that they should labour under greater disad-
vantages than ever. Their Lordships compelled then, to
hear witnesses oat tubjects of whicit they were ititiviant,
and facts alleged to have been committed all over the
globe, When the House had conic to this ill-umeated
situation, the Counsel fur the Qiieen were allowed to state
their objections to the proceeding. The Leareed Coon.
eel concluded d weevil toplete with to Cr and ehegunce,
by imploring their Lordships to 'muse before they plunged
line arty new difficulty.
Mr. DLIN 114 N rose, and wit.; much eloquence protested
as counsel for the illustrious accused, against a ,nurse of
priweeding which, tend. d to 1114isli her Alajeidy% Coombe'
nirtiiino her, :intl to deprive her ut the 10,011'14e
grou.i dt of defence. lie contended that t hero waN uo ,ecurily
for the Soucen—tio security for the incaneit subject-110 seek!. '
ray for any individual in aupu.l ass inbly, if it permia
charged with an ogeuee should he tkptilmd of 111,. riot of
a free, full, ow cif unt,liackletl a ma, (.4 ;
for ILI 1441 lie 11nIncetare 'if the amused ofit.J
▪ tlepended—(llear, hear, hear.)—lt n a. on le4
paioti,, and dry lectinicolit Ir., that be a sat ve.ak•.t.; ; hal he
would alqu:nl In !heir Lordslllll.., and vantoul them lo he
aiszare how they laid do ais rules ti inn a bark l ies 11414
%jails (I,•eurt ; and to lscn aid hoe they sh pprd "n "-f"r-
unlute ricrii.e.t or ail int .tit, of drientliii„; .41-i it ••• 10.4 an
• k.-01...11*, 6'411 -Ilene Ihr t:..tat• •I sound
the great advaiittu,rii which at Frau(' drew. oi a. a t laru.-uu
lingie•sed over tor Majesty. The", a hat of 1k 1113,w% was.
luitoilled. at-laajenCr 111:111iimed. ;and f.le a•,,,I(.011
math, adv. To•-ir taut a singly a-
mi ntd eAcepi Ihnlae tonlaislCd In that Lt. lie me,/ not

state how far this differed from the piesent case. lie ap-
pealed to their Lordships, if nosy one of thew, or the.,
relatives, were accused of a crime at which the mind revolt.,
stated to have been committed in Egypt or Greece, what
other menus they would have of meeting it, but by a crags-
examination, after they bad been enabled to ascertain the
character of the witnesses against them? There was ono
important topic, and be thought it was the only one to which
his Learned Friend bud not adverted, mostly. that her Ma-
jesty's Counsel hail not been furnished with copies of those
depositi and papers, on which a Committee of their
Lordships had made a report, recommending the histitutioa
*footle proceeding against her Majesty. He (Mr. Denman)
had distinctly made application to their Loedslups for these
papers, 411f1 that application had bee refused. It was by
having an oppoituoity an a former occasion when her Ma-
jesty's character was assailed, of contrasting the prepara-
tory affidavits of certain persons with the subsequent depo-
sitions before the Lords Commissioners, and by that means
alone her Majesty had been able to establish her innocsuce
in the eyes of the world. But of that advantage her Ma-
jesty is now wholly deprived. It wasinspossible not to per.
ceive that several of their Lordships who had been in the
Committee before nlludel to, had put questions to wit-
nesses from information which they acquired from other
sources tban the public proceediogs consequeut on this 11111
from sources to which the Counsel of her Majesty bad been
refused, and had had no access—hut to which they ought
to have Use freest access, were it intended to do justice to
her .Majesty._( Hear.) —This was one strong reason, in ad.
dition to the many which bud been stated, why her Majesty's
Counsel should nut be deprived of the most fall, ample, and
oleic right of cross-examination, or of any opportunity
of bringing forward, at any time, any information which
might throw a light on the case, or cast infamy on those who
bring infamous charges. However painful it might be, it
would be better for the ioterests of the public that her Ma-
jesty's Counsel should at once withdraw from the enquiry,
than give their sanction to a course of proceedings by which
ins real justice could be dune to the accused party. It would,
indeed, be painful, but ant so painful as to concur in a pro.
cecding by which, in the person of her Majesty, bee safety
of every person in Enemas, would be compromised, mid to
which any of their Lordships might themselves fall victims
hereafter. It did seem to him as if her Mojesty, by every •
fair means of defence being withdrawn (rem her, were dor
voted to destruction—that her desteenhian, at all hazards, .
was vowed and resolved upon. Henever would cease to
insist for the most full and unreserved right of erns-extuillia•
nation on all occasions. It would he better. a thowsand
times, that all the summer months of the two ten years
should be occupied in the enquiry, that, that the lonstilljustb e
should be done-to the Illmitrione Party in the ease by any
difficulty io the way of proceeding, of which their Lordships
were themselves the cause. The Le/wined Gentleman cun-
eluded a most impressive speech, by cosijoring their Lurdahips
to be guided alone by those great principles— not of written
but of unwritten law—principles which were engraven on
' the hearts of all men, nod by which every cultivated wind
was regulated.
air It. Clifford, the Attorney-General, and Sir J. Copley,
the Solicitor-General. severally addressed their Lordships
against acrurding to her Majesty's Counsel, tar permission
they requested. to whom
Mr. BROUGHAM replied. He denied that be had wil
fully misquoted the Hake of Norfolk's case. The King's
Counsel had complimented their Lonlahips—he would admit
its justice. They, however, seemed to bare a monopoly of
all the learning, of all the skill, and those on. the other side
had only an odd volume or two to guide them. With these
he was content. Those on the tale& side to be sure had Cob •
hetes 46 State 'Freaks" he haul only the folio volumes to
consult. The 40th and 47th page% of the 17th volume of
their Lordships' Journals bore Inns out. Twenty witnesses
were examined, according to those Jourials, and they wese
cross-examined us to how they lie`ed; some of them said they
hived on their own means. The Duchess, according to the
Journals, was furnished with u list of witnesses. their moues,
places, &c.; and also with three days time to proceed.
(lie Learned Gentleman denied all tiii.; he only I-moulted
their Lordships' Jouruals, and read flow them. The times
and places were also given, and if the Attorney-Geiseral had
furnished him with similar cases, the same were the fart
for thou4li the prisuiler did um knave some particulars till
he Bill was found, yet the pi honer knew iu what comity lie
was imprisoned, nod that he was to be tried fur something
done within that county. Herne the accusation tsto over a
sej jet: of yours and divers places in various quarters of the
world ; a hale a pi isouvr wits not tried for a felonious inter.
course hi piekin.; sundry pockets, but fur some specific acts.
A good dent was said almost precedents, soul Bills of Pains
and Penalties were argued, as it they were regular lawful
pruceedin,;s, instead of being exceptions to all law. item
was to be a general rule—but why was there to lie a gene.
ral rule at the expence of the Queen, soil not of the nip°.
site party —it was said that it would he better for ten
guil:y persons to escape than lot (air imam coat person In
bit poitsherl ; but the coutiary seemed to he acted npnii.
However, it was clear from the evidi-nee, 111411111 Ce WWII"
he used whom hi toes tailed: and he as.unieol that similar
powers. foreign powers, would ion he used to Ming his -
ward the Querit'a a itneatirs. They 'nigh: he used l's
keep them away. These acre souse of time dierolttes
which weie played in the, sexy,
Lord LIVERPOOL noised, that the House do now
ailjoiii hi. It w..uld tic hotel WWI to dr. ante het". t- to.
ttirjrrOVl. lie ht";ti t.i .Itl4l, 11141111111'111NA bouts wcio
plseed at the ills a :pi pl t• y, mail o he, e cr ant
11,4C4 no COmpelwit•,•.:, s 1.• coal.. tiVy I 1.,1.1111• Prom.. nn /a,
the some (+tee be u.adiegetdwj a ituesse• tin the
comm. lea r.)
tiln4ll/4• Cram Lnril EitsKINE apsome .be
we,o tiiodglit n sound be hettes to lilt tin.
one, thir prepared to I.rw ed talon 1.. e
II" it)u.i At:pitfall:li rt 6ke 4;1:1w-1k.

11,

. il-
I
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44,•;*...

282

119.
The Lord Chancellor took his seat at within tee mMutm
to ten.
Prayers having been rend by the Ri.hnp of Winchester,
the names acre recd over, and the following Peers mere es-
cu-ed on account of ill health, and far 'other causes.
Lord Enniskillen, Lord Ay Icsbor), Marquis of Buckingham,
and Lord Rivers.
The debate on the subject of permitting the Queen's Coun-
sel to re-cross-examine a itnesses wall renewed and continued
to a great length ; in the end it was agreed, that justice de-
manded such a privilege, and (after a motion for adjourning,
bioposed by Lord Krskine, had been imotived by
Ayes 61 I Noes 160 1 Majori•y 99,
Counsel were called to the Bar, nod the Lord Chancellor,
addressing the Queen's Counsel, said, the (louse KR them at
liberty to cross-examine witnesses after estunivation, with
the liberty to call back, at a future day, any witness Her such
farther esuutinatinn as they may desire.
The witness Barbera Kress was soon after brought to
the Rae, and her cross-examination was resumed by Mr.
liroughaus.
Where do yea live now I—Near this home.
Where I-1 menet say how Ihr it is from this. I came in
a coach. I don't knew boa far it is.
Was it en this side the river P—We came over a bridge.
Who lives in the house with you P—Only the woman of
tie house. _ . .

Where is your brother?—He is with Me.
la the same house ?—Yes.
Has he given you any money 3—No.
//id be never give yow any money ?-- No.
Dui your brother Meet promise to give you money?—Not
my brother. He could Not promise me money.
Why oat?—Dow maul& he pronaibe me any thing?
Do you mean to my be hats wit money of his own ?—Only
that which took him from home.

What trade is he ?--He makes pets.
bhe a workusaw er a manufacturer ?—lie is a master
potter.
What is year father P-114 tither was a Serjeant in the
Army.
Is yea owe father Brine—No, I hare a father-in-law.
What is be I—t. master w .

Did oo person give you money after you came over in the
slop I—No.
Did an ►ody promise to give you money after you came
from Cablinseito England /—No body.
Will you swear, on the oath you have taken, no person
promised to give you any advantage rater you go back from
F.ngland ?—Nobody has promised me any money ; but 1 have
bean told I should have the" dosinsageosent"(comprosalion)
u lieu I came home.

Watts should you have T—l cannot say.
Who told yam you should have compensation 7—The
?disaster.

What Minister ?—I said to him, I most be compensated
for the loss of my situation. I said I shaft lose my place.
What Minister are you speaking of 3—M. Von Berustadt.
He 1114111 C. if I did not go, I should be forced to go.
Who is he ?--I cannot tell.
Was be Minister to the Grand Duke of Baden 1-1 do not/
know whether he is his Minister.
Did he nut come to see the rooms is the inn wheue you
lived ?—M. Von Berditadt came there.
Did nut ft.ron Conradin come to look at the rooms 7-1
did not see him.

Did you not know he ass there P-1 have never seen him.
Did you see, after the Queen left the inn, any other
Gentleman come to look at the moms T-1 have seen no
other except Herman de Grimm, who came to the inn to
lodge.
Now long was he there cannot say.
What part of She house did Grimm lodge in?—He lived in
room No. M. Before her Royal Highness arrived be lived
in N 0.13.

Did he give up No. 12 for the accommodation of the
Princess?—Not that 1 have semi.

Did be not ►eamrm after the Princess arrived, and go into
N.. Id, to look what was there?—Yes he ran about and
looked at the rooms. _ _

Was there any body with hint when he made the in-
speetionl—There was a gentleman—two gentlemen.
Who were those gentlemen?—One was hie brother.
Was be a German or an Englishman?—l don't know
that I I never heard him 'peak.
What is Herman de Grimm?—Minister von Wirtem•
berg.
Who is his brother f—l cannot tell.

How long had yon seen the Princess before the day you
say von went into the room and saw her with Bergami ?
I have seen her very little. I bad too much occupation
to pay attention to.
Did you wait on her at breakfast ?—Nn.
Did you occasionally prepare the breakfast ?—No. I
weal into cleats the room, and then I saw her.

Was it after that time you saw her in the room with
Bergami ?—Yes, after.
Does she mean she saw the Princess with Bergami after
she was called in at breakfast time. or in the evening ?
I saw the Princess with Dergami when I went into the
coo nto wipe up some slop I had made. This wit in the
evening.
Did the Princess dine in the Inn ?—No. I did not see
them dine in our honre.

Will you swear they never dined there once ?—I can
notswear to it, but I never saw *bent.
..

Will you swear the Princess and Bergami did not dine
at Cowl every day ?-1 canuut swear they dined at Court,
or where they dined.
Did yon see the Princess and Bergatni with the suite go
to Court during the time they wi re there have seen
them go twice in a carriage, but whether they went In
Court I do not know.
Have von seen the Grand Doke come to the Inn to wait
on the Princess?—The Grand Duke and several gentle-
men came np to the Princess.
Whist do yon memo by coming sop to the I's iiicesA ?—I
can M/ limiting shunt it.
Lid you suppose they came to pay their respects toiler
KA al H ighness ?—Yes, prosably tiny (1141.
Vt, here did her Ito) al Highness receive the Grand Mk(
—I saw him go up stairs ; as they went up stairs, 1 went
down stairs. _ _

Will site swear the Grand Duke did not come to pay his
seven:a to the Princess on the night she saw the Princes•
in hergami's rount?..-1 cannot say whether it Yl es day or

alight.
When you looked at the bed one mnrning, was it at the
time you were making the bed :—Yea; I bad molting
else to do w it i the bed.
Kid you made any be,lt that morning before ?-1-1,41
was the first I made. There was HO iu the loom
but a servant in a grecu cost.