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London, England, 1820-08-29 00:00:00

strictly adhered In, than altered upon slight grounds—that it
wan, in fine, better to seisoil 10,000 guilty persons than to
break down i know. rule of law to meet • particular case—
(Mar, keer.)
F• "I Gals offer what hod been heard this day, particu-
larly from the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack,
did not think that his Noble Friend on the emm.bench (Lord
Lawlerulale) wield deny that the present was • question of
great difficulty and grave int parttime', and one whirls called for
the U 1351 "wimp attention god the deepest emmideratinis of.
heir Lordships. Heagreeil most folly in the principle laiA dowse
by the Noble and Learned lord, as applied to rases in which,
sitting in their ordinary judicial rapacity, their Lordships
were called upon to prounnoce • judgment of guilty, eve iw
nn; that if any difficulty arose it 11.1111 to be promptly met,
and solved by analogy from the established roles in similar
rams; but the present was a case in its °store most retrain.-
dissary and unprecedented, and not less Important in its eon.
segos-nets than rare in its occurrence, it was a ease involving
political and other emsaideralions of the Mutest moment,
sod therefore not to he decided by the orslioary practice,
nor without a scrim's attention to its expediency; and
en beset with difficollies as the reseed case was iin all
helots acknowledged to be, it was well deserving of their
• Lordships' cousideration, whither it wool., not be better
wholly to desist front any further procreilinea. It was
now proposed to limit the cross-exanainstion of witness," to
the practice in or.litiary cases, and afterwards to Fecal
them, if it should be deemed neermary. la any Covet of
tw, if, after the cross examination and reexamination of
a witness, circumstances arose which rendered it rape
diem for Conine' to have that willies, recalled, he was
given to nittlerstond that it would be readily allowed.—
net he had it to have been decided by their
Lordship", that, in consideration of the peculiarly ilia-
aihrantgeous situation in' which the Queen was placed,
by the irdlefinite nature of the charges agsiost her,
and by the refusal to famish her with a list sit the wit-
ness'', the Coulosel intrusted with her Majesty's defence,
should be compensated for these disadvantages by some
such istdolgence as the latitude which had hitheto beer
allowed them in the cross examination of the witnesses.
But if their Lordship should now think it to alter the rule
which they had theta prrvioaaly laid down, aithoigh be (the
Noble Lord) was by no menus disposed to admit of Coonsel
advising their Lordships as to the vomite proper to be pnr-
sited, vet he did not see bow their Lordship* cont.' with
any chew of justice proceed to such alteration of their
previous role, without bearing from her Majesty's Conn.
gel their opinion no to the possibility of their proceed-
ing in the conduct of her rage, without the runtion•
sure of such indulgence as had hitherto been extended to
them. Though unwilling to trespass at any length upon
their Lordships' attention, lie most offer • few uhaerva.
lions in elucidation of the position in which the House
WA. now placed. He believed he was the first person who
had drawn the attention of the Howse to the peculiar
cirenuistancrs of the present case, by a motion, that her
‘faiesty should be (tarnished with • rpecification of the
charges intended to be brought against her • he bet:eyed
he was the first person who hail called their Lordships'
notice to the peculiarity of the ease, become the mo-
tion of his Noble (Lard Peskin) a list of (he wit-
nesses was subsequent, and indeed lie believe-41A was founded
on their Lortkiiips• rejection of his motion, of which disci-
tains of their Lordships he did nut, bovrclrer, mean to eno•
lie had. on that occasion, called upon the Holum
to consider whether there waa ever an instance on record of
a person, a Maisel lie had alatoat Dahl, being called on to
&mower *eerie* of charges of an indefinite nature, extending
over so large • tract of country, iorluding so many distant
rig' , and embracing • 11TrItyll of six years, without any
guide for the preparation of his defence as to lime or place,
or any other circumstance usually set forth in criminal
accusations. lie had thought it necessary fur satisfying
the cods of justice, that the Quern should be furnished with
• detail of the charges against her, specifying the time and
place of the acts of alleged criminality; the House thought
otherwise, and he would not now quarrel with their de-
rision. Bat when he was told that there was no preee-
deist fur the proceediags ; that it was against the usage of
Parliament to grant what be hail then sought to procure
for her Majesty, he mind beg leave to inquire into the
reasonableoess of the argument. By the statute of Ed-
ward Itl if the crime of which her Majesty is accused had
been committed in this kingdom, or with a subject owing
allegiance to the crown of these realms, it would have
amatmled to high treason • if she hod been arvaigned on a
eliarn. of high treason, she would by law hive been entitled
to a :Wail of every particular and specific act which it was
intended to allege as a ground of charge sorting' her, and she
most have been furnished with • list and full description of
she witnesses against her; i• addition to which she would
byre boil the advantage of calling whatever witnesses she
might think proper in her defence, without any previous
notice, whereby the Counsel for the prosecution might have
hero prepared for effectually cross-exainioing them. Bat
the Wittiest Law Authorities in the kingdom had decided that
the act being charged to have been committed out of the
kingdom, awl with a foreigner not owing allegiance 111 the
Krug of this country, the offence slid Dot come within the
scope of that statute. To 'that other case then was it ana-
logous? To that of a snite for a divorce. But • difficulty
had been starlet against the prosecution of such a suite in
this illfilaUCC. The King being the bead of the church., was
not amenable to the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical
Courts, sod therefore some oiler mode of proceeding mast
necessarily be adopted. In the ease of a charge of high
treason, the party would hive the benefit of the advantages
which he had stated. lit the cause rica suit for divorce in the
Ecclesiastical Courts, the libel must distinctly set forth the
time and place of the alleged adultery, and a particular de-
scription of the witnesses mita( be attached to it ; and
after the preferring of the libel sufficient time wortld
he allowed to frame an answer to put in a counter-
plea, and to procure the evidelice in answer to the
libel, and in support of the counter-plea. Bet it had
been alleged that this case was of so anomalous a 111.
Lure, that it could mot be afTecterl by any of the ordi-
nary modes of proceeding, but most he met by a measure
adapted to its particular circumstances : even so, would
their Lordships deprive the party of all the advantages which
in the ordinary mode of procedure would have been secured
to her by law? No; and he appealed to their Lordehips to
say whether it had nut been distinctly stated that some (qui-
eaten' should be afforded in the course of the proccedirigs
for those advantages which would ne 44444 rily lie curtailed
by the extraordinary nature of the proceedings which had
hero adopted to meet 1144 r-sec Whether the rule which their
Lordships were now called on to adopt would plate the
illustrious individual most particularly coueernedM At
name rioting it, point of advantage, lie slid trot know, bet
he must beg leave to tortmiste what had been said la empflori
of it. A Noble Lord had said, that three was au osample.
110 precedent in parliamentary history of soda advasstages
hying given as were called for in this case; he however
begged to call their Lordships attention to the Met of the
Duchess of Norfolk, iu which it would be famed that pie.
cisely what had beets diked un the part of the Mesdames
person under accesation in the case now before the House,
and even more, had been granted on applicatiou. The
• I)acheses proctor first of all applied for a spetificatioo of
the ells, ices, %%hick was grimed ; he next applied fur a more
partienlat detail of the charges specified, which was elan
;panted ; he then applied for a list of the witnesses, which
was also granted, and the decision in favour of the appli-
cation was grounded on the manifest injellice of depriving
the Defeudaut of those advanmees which would have been
secured to her by the ordinary moor of procedure. and to
render the list of witnesses more available, a preliminary
examination of theta took place at ohs bar
of the House, and the proctor was furnished with the par.
ticulars of that examination. He appealed, Otto, to their
Lordships, whether there was not sufficient reason to give
list' Quern the same advaistages in this case. Their Lordships
had formerly decided against the specification of the charges.
slid against fteruiabing • list of the witsiesms. He did Not
mean to arraign their decision, but he did mean to mom.
triad that they could sod atm to heat her Mojeoly's
Counsel before they resolved spun takiog away that egad-
-I,llleol which had beets promised them for she ailvaatages of
which they bad hems deprived. The crose.examiaalims of
witnesses could arm be misoluesed with soy Street wiles,
the p srly was prevfooslyampsainted with the character a
the witness, and in miens degree apprised of the fade to
which the witness awed be examined; this was an aim-

tage secured to the person nailer Senseslima Isy tie oral.
nary mode of procedure, their Lordships had felt that the
party being deprived of it was retitled to poweething its the
way of eqeivakat, aed In this case they had already Allow.
ed as inch equivalent a certain 'entaile in the crow-
exassiailise Oahe whops...as, and it was impowsible their
Levablgnicowidateest depart from the rule which spry had
Irellorn bid doses wllhont evident injostice. In fact, it ap.
pargeir Si him AM ensa of three thong.' was left foe their
leeedisidpa so du. The first, sod that which was !woken.' the
MOM desbalde, was to drop the latiniry, and desist from any
farther procesdisigs. The Atm, war, as the Queen had aim
bees put in possession of the charges preferred against lwr,
by the opening speerh of she Attorney-Generst, to feroids
bee Majesty with • list of the wises-yes, and sitapend she
posereilings for the prevent, and reunitee them at such time
eh salasentel be judged seflitiesit to enable her Majesty In risme
(Ay prepared fur her &trice. Or, they might allow the
Node hitherto pressed with respect to the cross-examine-
** of the witsiesees to be persevered in, of cruse-examining
dim et different sint)es, as circumstances might reenter ex-
Pellflohth He wax ready to admit that the ease was sow-
rosneded wish difficulties, sad pregnant with evil, but he
sew toe way by which they might be avoided. He was aware
that if the croits-exermination were delayed, the reweamina.
lion most alsu be delayed; and that if this were allowed for
the defray., the emitter! in support of the Bill- might alien
claim to delay the cruss.examinaiion of the witnesses for the
defray, and that time should he allowed to procure the
attendance of arch additional witnesses as might be nguired
to awes any cirinswistaeres whirls might unexpectedly tran-
spire in the cross.examination. Tinge, he admitted, were
evils mid difficulties with which the case was thickly heart,
bat from these he saw no other means of escape, without
compromising with the public the character of the justice of
the proreeditegs of that Moose. Their Lordships had !wen
told that they meat not yield to clamber, and hr for one
seas decidedly opposed to such yielding, bet clamour woo
aid opinion —(//ear, Aear.)—The present was not an or-
dietary ease in which ilwir lordships were merely called on
to prOisoience • judgment of guilty, aye or me; but it was
one of deep sad widely-extended general policy ; such ass
use in which public opinion mast always have great weight
- !ear, hear)--and is that opiesiosi Ise Yield assure their
Lordships that whatever might be said en the other side,
he bad good reams to know that the character of their pro.
reeding@ had already considerably suffered—Wear, hear)
—and he hoped their deciasios on the prevent qnestion
might nut tend to injure it still sore.—{Haar, hear)—He
wunlil conclude by deelsriug that it appeared to Isim im-
possible that their Lordship should alter the rale they bad
already laid dime without hearing the nevem-ma ..f Coun-
sel as to its probable effect um the ease intrusted to their
inaoageasent.

Lord Grenville said, that they were now &Latin a pies'
litre which had been decided ou a former day. Ile had
stated that he was one of those Lords who was attending
by the order of the House, and who had not beets present at
the previous proceeding, and when he was compelled to take
a part, he was determined that nothing al Id he done by
understanding, but that a direct course of proceeding should
be marked out. He was ofopiniou that contrary to their Lord-
ships' former proceedings, when Comtel against the Bill
hail eloped their crass-ex imittation of a witness, and re-ee-
stoinal. had take• place whet, an occasion awe, Counsel
against the Bill should have the opportunity of a second
lime of crosm.examining a witness. tit, as occasion where
it was memory, he was convinced Mir tribunal, or any other,
would sot refuse where Counsel for the defence had stated,
that new eircionetatares had come to their knowledge, and
that it would be for the belie& of their client that the
witness should be again cross examined. He was certain
it would be allowed in any Court of justice, hat the new
facts should be fully and amply inquired into, and with.
out the fear of contradiction, he would say that it hest ho
so is their Lordships' House, for if they refused to allow
Conniel to rross.examine IQ new facts, would not one of
their Lordships do it ? There was no Noble Lord, be was
coovinced, on being put in possession of the new facts, that
would nut think it his duty to have the witnen eel ailed to
their Lordships' bar, and put the qmestiona to him arising
out of the new fat ts. He would not at any time, if he was
called mato agree I. as arrangement whirls would shot out
soy part of the defeace, agree to it; so far from it, lie
would oppose it in the strongest mariner. He would tell
their Lordships, it was their duty to do justice to the Royal
Premier!, and that they would only do so by allowing her
Counsel to have the opportunity of a second cross eaamina-
Mu on new facts coming to their kiwi/ledge; their Lord-
ships not hiving, i• one instance, shut them out from that
advantage, as they gave them the benefit of it is a second
time cross-examining Thetulore Majoechi. The resolution

their Lordships came to Olt Ssborday, was out to eximul the
hoodoo( Counsel, but to confine them, by laying down a
certain rule; the consequences of which would be, that on
that shy their Lortlakips would have set the fatal precedent
of limiting Counsel in defence of their client, by prevent-
big them from ■ second lime putting questions which, in
all law and justice, they were entitled to dn. When he
rousidered all the diffintli ies of the case, and the great im-
portance of the question before them, be called on their
Lordships to deliberate before they made pitch a rash order.
In his opiate*, they had moth* to do boot to keep the
coarse they had pursued, not to preclude Cottagel from only
e%ansining to what they thnoght right after the examination
of a witness in chief, but 111 leave it open to them to again
cross-examine the same witness, when mew itiformation
came to their knowledge. lie might say, it was the mood-
moms opinion of the House that this was the course they
ought to pursue. He agreed fully with his Noble Friend on
the cross bench (the Earl of Lauderdale) 3/ to his proposition,
Ind if it was adopted, and was injurious to the Royal Client of
Ike Counsel against the Bill—that was, if Counsel felt it so,
they ought to he heard at their Lordships' bar against it.
He would ailopt the argument of his Noble Friend on the
cross !mica, that it never was known that Counsel were al-
lowed to suggest to a Court of Justice, much less to that
How, what coarse they °night to pursue ; bat that was not
the question before their Lordships—Counsel did nut ask
the. to deviate from, say fittest role of evidence, but their
Lordships naked Counsel if they hail any thing to urge why
HMI might to deviate from the established rule. 'fluty had
mot dentinileil it on the part of their Royal Client, hot 'if
they had, he had no hesitation in saying, under the peculiar
eircomatances of the ease, their Lordships would be bound

to grant it to then..
The Earl Of Liverpool begged to.ny, before the Counsel
were called ia, that he intended when She list of witnesses
was relined, So give the Queen ass equivalent, by allowing
her time, by means of an adjournment, to prepare her de-
fence; but he thought it ought to be clearly understood
that so understauding had existed on his part, that the
object of the present application, namely, an adjourned
cross-examination, should be allowed.
Earl Grey explained. lie thought the proper course
would be to call is Counsel, and state to them t►e role on
which the Howse meant an set, and by which they were re.
solved to abide in future, unless some good cause to the cull•
fiery should be &hewn, and In ask themowhether they had
any objection to offer so the adoption of studs rule.
The Lord Chsocellue wow put the question, whether he
should tall in the Counsel, soil inform them that it was the
isteutioir of the House to adopt the usual course, aecurdiug
to the practice of the Courts of Justice, but extruded so as
to admit of $ second creses.examination is special cases ?
To which au objertios was made by Earl Grey, and trodi-
-6C111014/ stiggeattsl by his Lordship and other Peers.
The Lord Chancellor mow read from the minutes the
order which had bens made w Saturday un this subject.
The Earl of Liverpool moved, That the Counsel for the
Q/10111 should be istfoeused that they were directed lay the
House to plumed with Me croasaexaminat ion, as far as they
could, is she ordinary summer; but that on circumstances
or facts net wow lumens Id them trauspiriog, they should
be allowed ■s opportosity of rallies back the sante wit.
Hewes who bad bees primitively cross-examined, for a further
cross-examined it/n.

Earl Grey objected to this proposition, reseeivieg that it
impulsed. on her Majesty @ Conrad she ordinary rules of
Coasts of Law in all their etrictuess, while it extruded au
privilege that world be refused in any Court. Fur he sp.
serlsessiled, that if in say Coed COVIIIIIeI dada say," we
are new is possessive of fads, whit* we did rot knew be-
fore, sod we cam en, cross emend former *impedes with
.pester died thin we did ►eler►=seek Vert weeW mot

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