The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-19 00:00:00

M^, ir.

.1 fh st r xeeu.litnre iee mov"..el es at pre-
see t its three distinct estimates—one for the army, another
for the Ordnance, and another for the 00Lumisganiat. It
is proposed to combiue these three .estimates iu one, so
that tlse House of Commons and thecountry"' slay see at
one view What is the *hole -military expenditure of the
country for the current year, from a statement drawn tie
in a simple form, and easily understood by all. It will
further _ be. the.daty of this officer, having- conveyed the
orders which-he may receive from the Secretary of State to
thndifferent branalreec to See-that. those orders are regu-
larly carried out, and,. fat that spurpase, each Branch will.
-be called onto keefi table,. -and to
_enter- in it the
various Orden which it may receive. ..K.Anplicate will be
kept in the Office- of the Secretary of State, in which he
will note the orders issued upon. particular days, and, by
calling daily or weekly for the production of the tables of
the various branches; he will be able, by a comparison
with his own, to see at once the manner in which his
orders have been' carried out, and whore there has; been
delay or malLexecution, and thus will 'be able to do that
which is now found to be so.difficult, that is, to place the
saddle on the right horse. These are the chief duties which
'Will aPpertain to this new officer whom we propose to ap-
point ; and now Lorne- to the existing Offices in the civil
administration of the Ordnance Department. I may say,
my lords, that when this 'new arrangement comes into ope-
ration, hoWever these offices.; are filled now, all re-appoint-
ments will be made with the view of appointing the best
men to be the head of the different branches, so that this
- I will not say experiment, hut rather great scheme—may
have every chance of success. My lords' there is one effice, •
and only one, with_regard to which I find anyeeliffi-
culty in drawing the line of demarkation between the
military and civil departments, and that is the office of In-
spector-General of Fortifications. As regards the planning
of fortifications and drawing up schemes of defence, the
-Inspector-General of Fortifications wilt be under the autho-
rity of the Commander-in-Chief; but, as regards superin-
tending the buildings of fortifications, or the erection of
works of defence—that is to say, as far as regards the car-
rying sent the civil contract, he will he under the control
of the Secretary of State. I do not anticipate that any
.practical difficulty will arise from this arrangement, and,
-indeed, Sir John Burgoyne, who now so unexceptionably
fills the office of Inspector of Fortifications, foresees no diffi-
culty,in continuing to render his valuable services under
-toe new arrangement which is proposed. I may state, my
lords, that I am now dealing with a class of officers who
must, for the public convenience, have offices in London,
and, if possible—and I hope that in a short time it may
be so—under the same roof as the Secretary of State.
I now come to the Director-General of Artillery.
At present that officer is appointed by the .r.-'aster-General
of the Ordnance. The duty of the Director-General will
be to advise the Secretary of State for War in all matters
connected with the materiel of the artillery department.
The Director-General decides as to the mode of arming all
works which are erected by the Inspector-General of For-
tifications. He has to inform himself as to the number,
nature, and condition of all guns, mounted and unmounted;
in charge of the Artillery, in all parts of her Majesty's
dominions. That officer is ex officio president of what is
called the "Scientific Committee," and ho superintends
the introduction-of all changes and improvements in the
materiel of the arsenal. His oases, therefore, must be
close to that of the Secretary of State, because, upon
all matters relatingto the materiel of the artillery, he
must give the Secretary general advice. The next of
those high offices is a new one in connexion. with the
Ordnance. Inasmuch as the navy makes great demands
for stores upon the Ordnance Department, it has al-
ways been thought necessary to have a naval officer
connected with the Ordnance for the purpose of giving
advice in all matters relating to navalgunnery. At present
the officer who holds that appointment is Sir T. Hastings.
I propose in future to place the naval officer in connexion
with the Director-General of Artillery, and he will be
called the Naval Director of Artillery, He will be charged
with superintending all the improvements which may be
introduced into the naval gunnery of the country. He will
there be in a pOeition to make his voice effectually heard
in all questions of arms, and. in all suggestions that may
be made for improvements in those matters. He will also
snake himself generally acquainted with all the different
stores which may be under the charge of the Ordnance.
and he will be in immediate communication with the Ad-
miralty, so that no time may lie lost in equipping ships,
when the hour arrives for their equipment, with such
materials as may be furnished from the Ordnance. It
is essentially necessary that that officer should be a mem-
ber of the Scientific Committee, and ho will be cx
officio a member accordiug'es. The next office to which
I shall allude is that of the superintendent of stores,
which is, in my opinion, entirely a civil office. Although
those stores may and do consist of articles for the military
service, yet I conceive that very groat her4t will be de-
rived from placing at the head of the storekeeper's depart-
ment one who is thoroughly acquainted with the classifi-
cation of stores, with the mode of receiving them, with
dheir custody, with the manner of keeping accounts, with
the system of issue upon mercantile principles, and also
with that of which I am afraid many military storekeepers
are entirely. ignorant—narneli, the mode of taking stock
upon approved commercial principles. I remember being
upon. a, committee of the House of Commons when the
question was asked, whether eve had any thorough and
perfect knowledge of the amount of military stores
which were in the different storehouses belonging to
this country at home and abroad. The answer was, that
it would be extremely difficult to ascertain the amount;
and, upon the question being put whether it would
not be perfectly easy to take stock of the stores, the
answer was, that it would ba almost impossible. I think
th .t that is a branch of the service which ought to. be con-
ducted upon the most approved commercial principles. It
will he the duty of the storekeeper to have a thorough
knowledge of the mode in which the business of his depart-
ment is carried on. He will have, a great number of
deputies under him, and he must from time to time, by
personal inspection or otherwise, ascertain the manner in
which hiss deputies at the different stations are conducting
his business, and he will be responsible to the Secretary of
State for the entire conduct of the storekeeping depart-
ment of the Ordnance. This is a department of no small
importance, and your lordships may form some estimate of
its extent when I state that there are at present no fewer
than 90 stor,keepers, with salaries varying from 150/. to
800/. I hope that we may be able very considerably to re-
' duce that number of storekeepers. The next officer is one
whose duties are almost entirely distinct from the Board of
Ordnance, namely, the superintendent of contracts. I do
not know with what truth it is asserted, but 1 have always
heard it insinuated, that the contract system of the Ord-
nance has not hitherto possessed the confidence of the com-
mercial world • and I think that I might, if so disposed, cite
instances in which it had not worked well for the purpose.
I have heard it stated that under the present system many
of the most respectable business firms in the country have
declined to enter into competition, and to make tenders
when contracts have been put out by the Ordnance for
articles which they might have supplied. It is not my in-
tention to inquire how that state of things has ashen; but
the remedy seems to be to establish a branch which shall
have the superintendence of the whole of the public contracts
made for the arrnyor.the Ordnance. That is another branch
which is purely of a commercial character; and I propose
to place at the head of it as good a commercial gentleman
as I shall be able to find for that purpose, who has the con-
fidence of the commercial world, and who will be, I hope,
emphatically a " right man in a right place." The duty of
that officer will be, as I have st sled, to make all contracts.
He will not interfere with the execution of those contracts,
but he will have to enforce their fulfilment, and to take
any measures that may be necessary to effect that object.
I now come to another department with which it is abso-
lutely necessary that the Secretary of State should have
immediate communication—l mean that which is to super-
intend the clothing of the army. There is no department,
in my opinion, in which it is more essentially necessary to
take steps to secure a proper administration than in the
furnishing of clothing to the army. Until within the last
year or two the clothing of the cavalry and infantry was
furnished by the respective colonels of regiments. There
arose a very general objection to that system; indeed, it
was so general that two years ago the Secretary at War
relieved the colonels from the duty and responsibility of
clothing the regiments, and took that respcnsibility upon
the Government. That may have been is very proper
arrangement, but I do not believe that it will be found
altogether a profitable one for the public. It certainly
Will be more convenient for the colonels, but there were
many advantages (although there might have been at
the same time, also, some disadvantages) in the colonels
clothing their regiments, which will not accrue when the
clothing is furnished by the Government. On the other
hand, there are, no doubt, advantages which will result
from the clothing being undertaken by the Government;
which did not wise under the old system. In the new
arrangement, I propose to constitute a superintendent of
clothing. The effect of this appointment will be to do
away with the board of general officers. They will have no
occupation, and they will be of no use to the public after that
new system shall be brought into practice. No patterns of
uniform can be adopted, or altered, or in any way deviated
from, except by the express command of the Sovereign,
signified through the proper authority—and in future that
proper authority will be the Secretary of State. In
accordance with such command, patterns will be sealed
and committed to the custody of the clothing director.
With the aid of such professional assistance as he may
choose to call in, it will be the duty of the clothing direc-
tor, as the head of this department, to inspect all cloth-
ing materials before they are made up for the purposes
of the army ; and it will also be his duty to inspect, and
be responsible for, all clothing after it has been
furnished, to see that it is properly packed,' and, where ne-
cessary, duly shipped, so that it may be delivered at the
proper time to those regiments, both at home and abroad,
which are entitled to receive it. It may take some little
time to get into working order, but I have no doubt that
the duties of this officer being efficiently fulfilled, the re-
sult will be a system of clothing which will insure regula-
rity of delivery, and uniformity of pattern, throughout the
whole army, while it will enable us materially to improve
the quality of the clothing, and thus remedy an evil --hich
has often been the subject of complaint. That is one mat to which the superintendent of clothing ought s n
diately to direct his attention, for no man cn lookgiaet"
the clothing of our soldiers in this country without
being at once struek with the very inferior nature
of the material of which it is composed, and which
renders it liable not only to wear out sooner than
better clothing would, lint causes the soldier to suffer far
more than is necessary from the inclemency of tho weather.
Those are the branches of the departments which it appears
to Me it is essentially necess kry should sit, if possible, un-
der the same roof with the Secretary of State—with whose
transactions ho should be acquainted t because, if inti-
mately acquainted swith them, having a general eye over
their operations through the civil officers with whom he is
in communication, he will bo enabled to see whether all the
duties are properly performed, and ho will be enabled
without much difficulty, whether' in time of war or in
time of peace, to carry on the military
.departments of the
army with something like a unity of purpose. There aro,
however, certain other departments which, though some
of a military character, are also of a civil Nature,
inasmuch as they are more or less manufacturing de-
partments. In my opinion, as they are departnacni.s of
manufacture, they ought to bo under the civil controle
of the Secretary of State, who is responsible to hcountry that the 'articles they manufacture are not
quantity
in-
ferior in quality or pattern, or deficient in
lords, all these
for the use and service of the country-.
departments will continue to hold the position they ty
bliee.y (;s1
taht
present at Woolwich, or Enfield, ttiolewetem direct
regard to Woolwich, the first officeroas
your lordships' attention, is an . who will bo called
This officer, in the first
the Superintendent of Olnanc
continue to have charge, of the
place, has charge, and w
manufacture of all brass ordnance. He is also charged with
seeing that all .the guns, shot,
andshell received into the
service aro constructed according to the pattern, and
adapted to the service for whichhoy are required. Ho will
also have the proof of all ordnance, and will
11 be required to
keep a correct account of all ordnance which passes through
his hands, of the persons to whom he delivers it, and when it
was delivered over to the army. He will be at the head of
the branch of the manufacture of ordnance ats,the Arsenal
Woolwich,at and will-carry on his operations there, but
under a different system to that which has hitherto been
pursued. Ad these departments, my lords, are entirely

nelereailledy reegeue. OA, and their officers are aelen-
able to the thititary autherity and su jeet to militareedis-
cipline. The offiser has charge of, Ws &pertinent ie
a military racer' ued it is intended to contieue in the
charge of this arel other :departments the most efficient
officers that are to found in the ranks of the Royal Ar-
tillery - but in order that they may be to direct
their attention entirely to the duties of the departments
over which they shall have. charge, I propose that they
shall be seconded from-their regiments lona peesied 91 UV°,
years, and after that, it. it iCtiet thought !keener! to C*
thine them as tho headii 'of lhoiie diesaithinets Over which
they may have had share; they stall-resume their position
in the regiments in the same manner as engineers taken
from the Artillery for civil service are treated at present.
oTfhtihs
ewirilelormelmieavnedtig officer,hnoseoffie and the same fream teimmeeditaitemecoinetarvoel.
them in their proper position in the regiment without loss of
promotion or rank, while it will procure for the civil por-
tion of the War Department the services of officers of the
greatest energy to conduct the business of those dePart-
meats over which they may be placed. The next officer
is the superintendent of the carriage department, which
is a department now existing. This officer will be charged
with the construction of all gun carriages for the navy as
well as army, of`" waggons for ammunition and land trans-
port, of ambulances for the sick, and all milt
1 ary
chines. This includee a large manufacture of iron work as
well as of *nod. This officer will also have to second in
the slime way, for a period of five years thiring which he
is at the head of the department—when he may be changed,
though this is not absolutely necessary, and may return to
his regiment without the loss of promotion or rank in the
service. The next officer is the superintendent of the labora-
tory. This officer will be charged with the preparation of am-
munition for every species of arm; likewise cf all combusti-
ble material and pyrotechnic composition for the army and
navy. The next officer to whom I shall refer is the supei in-
tendent of small arms, who is not confined to Woolwich, as
your lordships are aware that there is erected, or almost
finished, at Enfield, a Government manufactory of small
arms, which, though it will not at present supply the army
to the extent it may require, will, at all events, enable the
Government, in time of peace, to accumulate a sufficient
store to supply the army hereafter in tines of war. This
officer will be charged with the duty of the construction of
such small arms as are manufactured by the Government;
with the inspection of all small arms furnished by contract,
and be responsible for their proof and their correspondence
with pattern. Your lordships will perceive that the du-
ties which this officer will have to- perform are of a yore
important character, and it is proposed to place at the
head of that department an officer of the Royal Artillery,
to second in the same way. There is one other depart.
ment only to which I have now to advert. It is a very
important one, and is now connected with the Royal La-
boratory ; but I think the- duties are so extensive; and
performed altogether so distant from Woolwich, that it
will be better to erect it into a separate branch by it-
self. I mean the superintendence of the gunpowder-
manufacture, now conducted at Waltham Abbey. The
officer who will take charge of that department will natu-
rally reside at or near Waltham Abbey, where the Govern-
ment mills are.' He wil lelso be responsible for receiving
and proving all gunpowder made by contract for the Go-:
vernment. He will also be responsible for the quality and
Purity of the saltpetre to be issued for the manufacture of
gunpowder. Ho will also be responsible for a duty not at
present belonging to that department—l mean the re-
stoving of gunpowder, which appears to me to be essenti-
ally a duty attaching to the officer having charge of the
manufacture of gunpowder. He will also be an'officer of
the Royal Artillery, selected on account of his fitness for
the office; and the whole of the five offices s I have men-
tioned will, under the officer at the head of the civil
administration, conduct the business of the several de-
partments. The manufacturing bUsiness will be carried
on upon the manufacturing principles adopted in this
commercial country, and I hope with economy, regu-
larity, and success. Now, the only other point to
which' I need refer is a question which has been
asked, and may be asked again—If we have a civil officer
representing these offices, what will the Under Secretary
have to do ? My answer is simply that the duties of the
officer who will have the charge of the civil administration
of the army will be so multifarious that there will be plenty
of work for the Under-Secretary of State to do, in answer-
ing in the absence of his chief for all such points of the
political administration of the War Department as he may
be responsible for—matters connected with the discipline
of the army and with the movement of troops. Whon I
held the office of Secretary at War 99 out of every 100
questions in the House of Commons affected points of mili-
tary discipline, the movements of troops, and matters of
that description, rather than financial matters more imme-
diately connected with the duties of the cffice. I appre-
hend, therefore, there will at least at present be room for
both these officers, and I do not propose to dispense with
the Under-Secretary of State in the House of Com-
moos, although we make a new officer, or rather
charge au old officer with new duties. Such, my
lords, is the scheme which, after careful consideration, I
have laid before your lordships. Ido not pretend to say
that it is perfect, but it will by daily operatiou work itself
into smooth gear. My object is to itsfuse into our busi-
ness transactions the spirit of commercial activity and
acuteness, and into our operative departments the sound
principles and common-sense practice of the manufacturing
districts—so to arrange all branches that one mind may
pervade the whole machine, and at the same time be kept
clear of all the small details of its varied operation. Theta
may be some little trouble, seine little asperities at first ;
but these will soon pass away, and, with whatever feeling-
these proposals. may be received now, I anticipate that
the time will come when when they will have justice
done to them, and our motives in bringing them for-
ward will be duly appreciated. I have already stated
these changes will not recpiire any act of Parliament to
carry them into effect, b.nd I may add. that it is the
intention of the Government to carry them out with
the least possible delay. I have said nothing as to
the expenditure which may be attendant upon these
changes, because lam as yet unable to produce any de-
tailed statement of the expenditure likely to accrue under
the new system. But I can assure your lordships that I
have so far ascertained the effects which may be expected
as to he able to say I have every reason to believe- in-
deed, I fee/ convinced—we shall Slid it more economical
than the present system, and that I shall nut be called
upon to ask fora, single shilling to pay these new °facers
or to meet any increased expenditure. If these changes
had been iu my opinion calculated to operate to the pre-
judice of the public service, I should not have undertaken
them at this time, oven at the risk of being blamed, to-
gether with my colleagues in the Government, for not
removing a grievance of which the public has thought it
had reason to complain. I am quite aware we have not
gone so far as some military-reformers would call on us to
go, but I think we have gone far enough. The subject,
has been carefully considered, both as to the changes them-
selves, their effects, and the propriety of introducing them
at the present time, and I have little doubt that the adop-
tion of these plans will bo found conducive to an improved
administration of the civil departments of the army. It'
dill, no doubt, be some time before all these improvements
cap show themselves, but I trust soon the system will be
found to be ono which will command the approbation of
the country, whose business we desire to conduct with in-
creased efficiency. (Hear, hear.)

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—I must say it is ex-
tremely satisfactory to find that it is not considered neees-
eery to have recourse to the intervention of Parliament.
It is most desirable that the changes which the noble lord
proposes should bo made on the authority of the Crown.
The noble lord will then have an opportunity of making
any alterations which he may think to be necessary, and
those who may succeed him will also have the same power.
I trust; also, when the noble lord reserves to himself the
power of displacing all present officers whose duties be
may consider can be better performed by other persona,
he will not hereafter be surprised if the same power
should at some future time be exercised by his successors.
The abolition of the office of Master-General of the Ord-
nance, the amalgamation of the office of Secretary at War
with that of the Secretary of State for War, and the union
of the Commissariat with the "War Department seem tome
to be very great and important changee,and I think it would
be convenient if the noble lord would direct that a menia-
-1 randum shall be prepared and laid upon the table for your
lordships'informatiou, showing the present powers of the
several officers whose situations it is proposed to abolish,
and the powers intended to be entrusted to the officers by
whom they are to be succeeded, rso that we may have a
tabular view of the entire alterations which are proposed.
We are without anyinformation as to the manner in which
the Commissariat Department - a departuseut of the great •
est importance—is to be administered. I apprehend that
at present there is no one, in that department between the
Minister for War and the chief clerk of the Commissariat
Department who formerly acted under Sir C. Treve-
lyan. It- appears to me that there is a difficulty
about all these arrangements, and I want to know what is
to be the real responsibility of the Minister for Ware I
know that he will bo answerable for hia conduct in his
Owe in Parliament, but I want to know to what extent
ho data be really responsible. (Hear.) A veryconscientious
man, placed.at the head of the War Department, might
think it necessary for him to look into every detail of the
Commissariat Department; but, if he does that, and en-
deavours also to acquaint himself with all the details of
the office of Secretary for War, and of the office of Ord-
nance, it is perfectly impossible that ho should perform
these duties satisfactorily, for he will be overwhelmed with
business. If, on the other heed, he considers that he incurs
a mere technical responsibility, all the evils of the present
division of authority will be practically continued, the busi-
ness will be conducted most unsatisfactorily, and there will
not be that unity of direction which is de,irable. In my
opinion it is absolutely impossible to carry on the depart-
ment' of the Commissariat without giving it souse
o•tensible head—a person of authority, who shall be respon-
sible in the eye of the public for the adnair Warnistrn will
iittthvee
department. No doubt the Ministsr fo
the power of giving directions with
ay test the accuracy nreference to that
Ide-
partment, and on some ace lions he 11
of the statements made to him, and look into the detail 3.
Indeed I consider that no one can possibly i
conduct the
business of the public well unless he occasionally ool:s into
the minutest details of his department, and ascertains the I
conduct of those who administer it.questionvvvery
to he a violation of
the policy of annexing the office of Secrete] y at al
of Minister for War. It seems to rue
incurs expenditure,
to mtlileaht
finances
principle, because a Minister for War incurs _
and the Secretary at War has hitherto manatrg,Texthpeendi
of the army, and it has been his duty to control
of
ofroctiug
and
Now, to give tithe same person the ) expenditure.
of centielling expenditure se.nns Te-aliCl7traieicilnutrnieiliscrteisuunitisn.
principle which can hardly
It thay be quite right that ti!tent:,,i4ecretary
I overruling the Secretary,
for War shoeld
have the power of controllinfgai
advantage in
at War, hut there is is
tovewrynkgererantp
resentatious.
having an officer whose dutsyr
r -t like as he pleases, but let him
Let the Secretary
fcoerritaVianl appears to me thateaccording
bear first ; and it
therey will be no one to nuke repro-
to the present proposal,
sentations as to the finances of-the army. With regard to
the Ordnance, I rccallect the time when that depart-
ment was under the control of the Duke oteWelline
ton, and when the present Commanderein•Chief was
Clerk of the Ordnance, and the opinion - of the Duke of
Wellington at that time was that no department of the
State was so well organised, and that in no other de-
partment was business so well conducted. I have no
doubt that while the noble duke and my noble friend were.
at that department it was admirably conducted, and I
think the prineii.ll upon which that board was framed was
to the last degree: superior to the principle upon which the
Beard of Admiralty is framed, beeause it gave authority to
the chief—(hear, hear)—a.nd tare was -really no difficulty in transacting the business. I object to the abolition of the
n
office of Master-General of the Ordnance
upooee two
m
grounds, both of which I think are worthy the s. ions
consideration of your lordships and of the public. In the
first place, I object to placing the whole patronage of the
army in the hands of one man, so that gentleman in
obtain for his
England will be able to
no
. •
son to any
branch of the military service without going to ono tudi-
vidual. (Hear, hear') I think that would-be practically
a very objectionable arrangement. I think another great
practical objection to the change is this the
life of the Duke of Wellington it was not at all necessary

`for any Goverothent- to have the TI ;ist.r General. of the,
Ordrisnce in the Cabinet. The Ditie:e of Weilineten was
uniforuile the honest adviser of all
the positeee efettleirs is now very differeM alert& tkisok
that to take from the Gavel rim eut the.power olVtvinkrttni
military friend of their own wheteVer hid antherity
itz
et ler
ae
etc; st.tbeittii
eerteetly reliarcsezilo,en
swtai
etici
eceoierififdoen_ liyi
rni as has
uer
-very great less to: the pablic. It is impessible_thet the
ctevernmeset marry_. Occasions have derived
great adi-anteke fromeasistance of the latoTeord Angle-
bbeeena
sea as .a member of the Cabinet; but now in riled a posi-
tion will the proposal of the noble lord place the Govern-
ment? He proposes to abolish the omce of Master-General
of the Ordnance. The Secretary at War and the Clerk of
the Ordnance aro civilians. The Minister for. War will
Usually be a civilian. Indeed it would be a very great ads
i
vantage to the public f any military man should bnin
position to hold the office. (Hear, hear.) We must,
.how-
ever, look to the probability that the Minister for War
will generally be a civilian... In the office of the Minister
for War—Who will direct net only the movements of the
army, but who, under the proposed alterations, is to deal
with all the scientific details which are called civil, but
which are really military—there will not. be, therefore,
one military man, nor will the noble lord have the
means-of bringing to Ills 'side any one military man in
whom he has confidence. No doubt military men will most
,rift-ay-give Min theiFitilviee on all occasions when they
may be asked to do so, but lie cannot be in the habit of
daily confidential eommunieation 'with a Military man in
whom he has confidence, and whose advice might be most
valuable in enabling him to conduct satisfactorily the busi-
ness of his office. I think this will not only be a great loss
to the individual minister, but that it will also be a serious
loss to the public. Many of the alterations which are sug-
gested by the noble lord may be improvements,,but expe-
lerd, generalif h s ce hceemn e d oe
lien' only can show whether they are improvements or
not. I have thought it
right to state those objections which
:
seem to me to apply practically to a material part of the
fstohem:Gi
novpelrancemuenpto,n andthe table
hhloepee
mtheemneorabhle.
dum showing at on
tended to carry into effect.
Earl GREY—I
having
but suchl world g
a
inview all the alterationsnd which it is in.
quite concur with the noble earl in the
andgreat l advantagelaid
d before
of
huthemy reason for not entering into the discussion to-night is be-
oora a littlenni preparedfurt
he.
r
cause I think it quite impossible fur any of your lordships
really to understand this sehonie, which is one of consider-
able complication, without having it before you in much
greater detail than is the ease at present. I agree with the
noble earl that it is very fortunate it is not necessary to
carry a measure through Parliament in order to regulate
the future administration of the army. I think this may be
much better done by the authority of the Crown.. I believe
my noble friend. in explaining his scheme, said it would be
-nomany that-Parliament-shotild transfer all the property
which is now vested by various acts of Parliament in the
Master-General of the Ordnance to new authorities. I
think, however, it is very desirable that the new arrange-
ments should be made by the Crown ; but although they
are made by the Crowe, I hope. they will be embodied in
some formal document. I conceive that it is advisable to -
carry into effect measures of this kind in a very formal
mode, and I hope that, either by new letters patent or by
orders in Council, or by some equivalent &ailment of well-
kuoan and formal authority, the respective duties of the
different officers who are to be appointed under the new
arrangement will be clearly defined, and that such docu-
ment will be laid before Parliament. (Hear.) I took the
liberty of mentioning some time ago that, in my opinion,
the great mistake made last year, when the offices of Se-
cretary for War and the Colonies were divided, was in not
having a minute of this kind prepared by her Majesty, in
Council—(hear)---in which the new arrangements for the
transaction of business might have been olearly defined. In
the hope that acme document will eventually be laid before
Parliament, and that we shall then be able to form a better
opinion than we can at present of the plan which has been
described to 113, I shall forbear on the-present occasion from
going further into this discussion beyond saying a single
word or two. Upon one point I quite concur with the noble
earl opposite. 1 cannot help fearing that, by the arrange-
ment which is proposed, too gret-, a mass of business of de-
tail will be thrown upon the secretary of State. No man
holds more strongly than I do the necessity of authority,
but a concentration of authority is psrfectly compatible,
tinder proper arrangements, cm ith the due division of la-
bour, and, as far as I understand the scheme, I dnnot think
it provides for coy concentration of authority. I continue
of the opinion I have formerly expressed, that cm ith re-
gard to business of this kind, involving a great many de-
tails, no organisation is so good as that of a board ; and I
quite concur with the nuble earl there should be a chief of

the board, whose opluiOns should he unquestionable by the
subordinate members, and who should have authority to
carry into effect his own opinions. I believe, practically,
every First Lord of the Admiralty, who is competent to
perform the ditties of-the oflice,_ is First, Lord to that ex-

..... _... tent, and I cannot give a better illustration than by quot-
. lug the well-known axiom of the late Lord Spencer as to
the mode Of carrying- .on business .at a board. Lord
Spencer said—" I tell my subordinates that, if they can-
not work with. me,--and. carry my. views into effect, I
must have a new board." (Laughter.) If each mem-
ber of a-board
.is-to be standiug upon his own opinion
it is perfectly obvious the business must come to a dead-
lock. You must have concentration of authority, and
I cannot help fearing that, while a great mass of details
is thrown upon the Secretary of State, that concentration
of authority is not provided. (Hear.) All through my noble
friend's speech ho seemed to lay great stress upon continu-
ing the division between military and civil. business and
military and civil duties. As it appears to me, he is going .
to leave the Commander-in-Chief precisely as at the present
time. lam persuaded that while this continues—while
one peraonis net responsible, both for the efficiency with
which the service is conducted, and for economy—you will
not have the machine working well. I believe it can be made
to work well by a very simple altei ation.in the position of
the COmmander-iu-Chief. The only alteration necessary
will be this : —that those proposals which it is now the
-duty of the Commander-in-Chief to submit to the Sovereign
in person shall invariably go to the Sovereign through the
Minister of War. (Hear.) I believe that a member of the
Cabinet ought to submit to the Crown everything which
requires the sanction of the Crown, and that'one member
or another of the Cabinet ehouhl be responsible for every
measure which is approved by the Crown. (Hear.) It
ih an anomaly only of recent date—it has grown up within
the last GO or 70 years —that many most important Inca-
SUMS, adopted_ by the Government relating to military
affairs, are submitted directly to the Sovereign by the
commander-in-Chief; who, is converted into a Minister,
instead of filling a subordinate position in a military office.
The Earl of ELLENBOEOUGH—Perhaps the noble
lord will tell us what he' intends shall be the future rela-
AiOnS between what is now called the Transport Board and
the Minister of War. The transport service was under
one of the Lords of the Admiralty. A board has recently
been constituted. I have a great objection to all boards,
but it appears to me nothing is-so anomalous: as the posi-
liOn of Captain Milne, a member of the Board of Admi-
ralty, having a qualified authority over the Transport
Board. (Hear.) So far as I can jUdge, the Transport Board
will not be placed in connection with the Minister of War,
though without the active co-operation of the Transport
Board the Minister of War cannot move a regiment. If
the Minister of War is to have control over the move-
ments of the army by sea and by land, I cannot see how
the present arrange,nent can by possibility be consistent
with the public service, and I would suggest to the noble
lord to consider the expediency of abolishing the Transport
Board. (Elear.)

Lord MONTEA.GLE hoped that their lordships would
especially be well informed as to the financial arrangements
relative to the army, but more particularly of the relation
of the Commissariat to the Trea-eurv. He himself had been
a member of the commission v.hicli had recommended the
consolidation of the army departments generally ; but with
reference to the eamtnissariat a distinction had .been drawn.
Within the last year the transactions of that department
amounted to no less a sum than 900,000/. sterling; and
there was also at their dispersal a sun,. of 1,000,0001: sterling
to be disbursed solely according to discretion. He believed
that if the proposed consolidation took place, and that all
this additional weight of business was to be thrown on
the Minister of War, there ought to be a Chancellor of
the Exchequer solely for the War Department, to provide
ways and meanslo meet his uncontrolled expenditure. His
fear was that the proposed alterations would teed only to
overweight the Secretary of State.
The Earl of HAItDWICKE considered it was rather an
anomaly that such a number of purely military offices
should be placed under the control of a eiyiliau. However,
in order to work out the system properly, he was for pine.
iug the transport service entirely under the_control of the
Minister of War. As things were at present, those really
in authority everywhere were the persons who could pull
at the purse. He never, however, could see why that should
be. However, that being so, and as the real power of the
minister was his power of expenditure, ho thought that
itihaeul i hand.por;erofexpenditure andre,pausilitity
-
ought to go

Loa' PANMURE said ha had only one word to -aild to
what had fallen from the noble earl opposite (tbe Earl of
Ellenborougli). Ho perfectly agreed with the noble earl
that there were other departments connected with the ad-
ministration of the army besides those which it was intended
to deal with at present which might require arrangement,
and to which attention would be directed hereafter. For
instance, the Com wissiariat branch might require alteration.
He was not sure that it would not be necessary altogether
to revise that branch of the public service ; but,
vising any such alteration of au old office, the question
would require ample consideration, and if it were found for
the advantage of the public service to inal.e an alteration,
he had no hesitation in saying that an alteration would be
immediately effect .Then, again, the Medical Depart-
ment requited considerable attention. Dr. A. Smith, upon
whom he mast say the public . had passed s
somewhat too
severe a censure, had now r:tited from the administration
various improvements would be introduced intBoStahce.
of that department, broken in health, in consequence of
the exertions wWch -he had been called upon to make
attention would
dat-
ing the last 12 months; and iu the apdointment of hi
istratiou of the department. (Ilear.) The
a.
,tfi. ,
theall nos irndnu
Ordnance,
madeand
civil departments in which alteration re were also
0, c eLdhsinleoirl;
No
with
tbmoe pa
taei Csi
e..errfincr
eteshge':
fisrptehede:c
Master-General
aid
df
ttho e Inl.obbil el lc everyo
iniProve.
t.he-cr in the
the noble earl impressed upon the Gov et nuient the necessity
e Cabinetmt i.
er atsh:
8,3;
sienaf,uhtuer(eLoef
(Curd
Pan
x iglrt:ihut atr
e;.high(Gl i
it, os 70te
eboxef ei
tiohepvet io a o f Lord Angl
cr
he Earl
mi-
litary assistant. • N
neoart4i9nytehael:B6abinet.
Dueunkeeno,fi
of
a seat
etliioillOgrt:n2ce Ordnance had bad
in the Cabinet, but not as Master-
Earl of Elleuborou b--4` Th
t dnly possessed • The Dille of Wellitritogn had curl-
past, the oceasiOns had a.l'
ment required thehai,pily, for many years
been but rare when the Govern-
himself with the 1111(17
time, he
quite
agreed
ladviceti of that officer. At the same
,I the noble earl that, if a military
sanio time capable }political party
officer could be 'co
military o'll who would be willing to arrange
of the day, and was at the
. of coneucting the duties of a high.
y , .ce, it would be of advantage to the public
Belvic° 63 Pheo that' Officer in the closest possible con-
nection with the Government. (Hear, hear.) With re-
ference to what had fallen from hii noble friend (Lord
GreY), he felt bound to nay that there were several points
in which be differed from his noble friend. His noble
friend went much much further in military reform than
he did, for he (Lord ranniert) could, not believe, that it
would be at all expeaient to place the Commander-in-
Chief, as head
of the under the control of a civilian.
As to the wish expressed by his noble friczol, and also by
the noble earl opposite, that the ititt-netions given to the
heads of the different branches of military administration
should be distinct and precise, and should be embodied in
some document to be laid upon the table of the house, ha
could not have the smallest objection to accede to that se-
Iladserl.stiganhlay
Invehcaetsslryeirthat
dutiesthe
(drl.ss)ll°inprlllstya'‘ would be -laid upon the table.
Possible, the information de-
. (fired
wirelrlebe i t c.i, obo
ybi (It ctich raeasri n'rb di 1 ,1 -°:
lordships
1 11._
ELLEN EOIZOUG.II observed that, since a
na:Tbeilhtree,
jEohraearairh.a of)
had
adverted to the subject of a civilian being