The National Register.
London, England, 1820-11-05 00:00:00

THE NATIONAL REGISTEIt

Interruptions front the Counsel for the Bill, to explain the
grounds on which he Conught the letters necessary to the just
determination of her Majesty's close.
The ATTuRm RV GE:Ntsaat
The LORD CHANCELLOR shortly gave Isis opinion
that the letters could not be received in evidence.
The Earl of CARNA It VON sail, whether the evidence
tendered was admissible accurdnig to the rules of law or
hot, was nut the question for their Lordships to consider
the evidence well uf the same nature as stamped the whole
character of the proceedings. 'Elicit Lordships had been
told that there mode(' an agency, and that agency was
new traced to au aces edited 31inister of the King of Ha-
nover, who was also King or this country. Evidence had
been tendered to prove that this Minister had tampered
with the servauts or her Majesty, who, perhaps, if not co
tampered will, might have beets celled in her favour. It
was for their Lordships to decide whether they were sit-
ting as Peers of England, or as the sere ants of the Govern
nsent of Hanover. If their Lordships were determined to
proceed with this Bill, they could nut do so with justice,
unless they sifted the conspiracy to ther
The Duke of HAMILTON was glad of an opportnnity
of declaring his sentiments bit this subject. He would nut
enter into any of the technical difficulties with which the
question might be surrounded; lie only wished for matters
of tact, and for the eliciting of truth. If there was any
particular I t which had been sedulously kept out of
sight iu this inquiry, it was the conduct of those who com-
posed the Alden commission. The Noble Earl opposite
(Lives; I) had declared. ou his own part, and us. that oh
Isis Majesty's Ministers, that they Mitt given ao authority
in this business to ally foreign Minister. 'Phis was a Bill
of Plllll4 and Penalties, and as such he would enter his
protest against it, since it was extra-constitutional, and
totally unnecessary. It, then, their Lordships wished to
discover the truth, they must not he bound by technicali-
ties or forced analogies. To do justice in the ps event case,
their Lordships must receive the letters. This was his
firm conviction, and he would take the sense of the House
upon it. T Ise Noble Duke concluded by moving, Tut
the letters be received as evidence."

Eat! GREY agreed with his Noble Friend as to every
thing that he had said against a Bill of Pains and Prim'.
ties, a measure only to be resorted to in case, of the
goofiest necessity, and where the ordinary modes of pro-
ceeding diJ not apply. That no such case existed in the
present instance, he (Earl (trey) had declared before
these proceedings coninicaced. Their Lordships had
sinfortuuately thought otherwise, and having agreed to
proceed by a Bill of Pains and Penalties, between 40 and
:DO days had been engaged in hearing the evidence on
froth sides. At the co 00000 sencement it was agreed, that
although their Lordships were dot fettered by the rules of
law, yet that their proceedings should be regulated by
those rules as lt as possible. On this principle they
had hitherto proceeded ; and the question now was, whe-
ther, in the last stage in the proceeding, they should aban-
don it? He greed with the Learned Lord un the
Woolsack, that according to the nales of law the letters
could not be received Were they, them, of sufficient
importance to induce their Lordships to deviate fruits
those rules? His Noble Friend had said, the conspiracy
should be inquired into. He agreed with him, but tins
was not the tinse. On Ulnae armada he should.vole against
the motion.

The Ea►l of CARNAAVONc attended that their Lord-
ships were not sitting as Judges only, belt, as Legislators,
and in that capacity they had nothing to do with rules of
law. As Peers of Parliament they were bound to go into
the fullest inquiry, fur they were not placed like a Jary,
to give a verdict of Guilty or Not Guilty. He could not,
us a Peer of the realm, give that horrible vote against the
Queen which he feared some were disposed to give, while
the slightest circumstance in her favour remained mead-
mined as evidence. He conjured their Lordships not to
forget that they were Peers of Parliament, that the eyes
of the country and the world were upon them, and that
they must trot shrink from doing that justice which was
expected at their hands.
Earl GROSVENOR was of opinion, that the examina•
lion into the conspiracy was nut allowed, they could nut
now go into that partial view of it which the letters would
afford.

Loral I lOLLA ND thought the admission of these letters
now wouid turd to which, though incomplete,
might be almost interminable. His reason, and his sole
reason, fur not receiving them, was, that lie MaS deter-
mined to vote against the Bill in every stage; but as lie
Aid not think that any man could give au honest vote fur
it, sinless be was "'repaired to tfillaille auto every circum-
stance that was I;eoagla belure their Lordships, in every
stage of tar proctediag—(licar)—he wanted nu 'stymy
into the (Instinct of ildam*tradia Aillabtl'lS, lie would vote
rg.iitst the Bill; but Ilaw.e also %etc ptepated to rule
for it should see whether thin eitteitce had urea featly
procured or out.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN was against receiving
the letters; he thonglit it 'lt enable that tue cotubitii sty
slaunld be Investigated, but lie di i not think grounds had
been tumid fur deviating from the rules to which Unit
Lordships had hitherto adhered. Ii had heels declared,
that evidence of a conspiracy should out be inquesed into,
and also (lie put it hypothetically) that they should exclude
all evidence of a counter-conspiracy. The uallarting Ito
tile rules of law had home inconvenience, but it was the
inconvenience which attached to the whole of these pi te.
(-endings ; And ha trusted, when th ear Lortl,hips C 411.0 to
decide, that the illustrious personate %unid have the be-
nefit of it.

The House then divided on the Duke of Hamilton's
motion, when the numbers were—
Contents
Nvn-Coinents ll5

.............. _
Majority against the tuutioh-129
It being four u'cluck, their Lordships adjourued till
Thursday neat.

THURSDAY ROY. L.
The LORD CU AIN Cl_,LLalt souk Isis scat oa the Wool-
sack u tew etiolates before ten o'clock. Prayers acre ryal
by the Bishop of Bristol, after which the list VIII. called
over.

Lord GAGE moved that the standing order of the Howe.
relative to Use method of voting, should be read. TUil
heilig done,
Lord HOLLAND said. the rep''r mode of proceeding
was the loupe., to be culled over .it Co; taole, whin eat
Peer rises mud unsurrs to his mime, and declare; h:s vol. ,
couteut or tion•culamnt. standout uo and uncovered; the
Lord Cltat.eellor Ora declares how he coot tires the question
has heel, decided, and if any Peer is Mutilated, the house
may thee be divided.

The Mike of the Day was then moved.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—" My Lords, the question
now about to be discussed by your Lordships, mow itlistende
tag all that has beau said un the subject, is, whether this Bill
shall or snail out be read a second time? I couceive, tics
cording to the ordinary practice of the House, this is the
only point fur your Lordship; consideration. Li the Grohs
wary course of proceeding un Bills somewhat rasembling this
-1 mean Bills tot ilivoieco—proof of the allegation committed
in the Bill is first made, hod if the individual occupying the
o (whinier is of upimuu that the fuels have been wowed, and
other Lords are of a couleury opinion, then a debate ur
rsq
,11,011 it. 1.44011 heiking into the precedents of your Loral-
soups' House, you may be asaered, beyond all doubt, that
although the preamble of the Bill he probed before the
second reading, it is cumpetent fur the House to :mend the
preamble. and that has been done in many, very many eases.
The House, dB deems it expedient, may even introduce a
new preamble; but it is my optuion. that nu alteration of
the prsiouble, or the ulleantioes, call be made, sinless lor the
purpose of mitigating them. In addressing your Lor,l4:p
am this subject, 1 Call assure you, with the utmost siucerity,
that amain; whatever would induce inc to trouble you, did
I toot feul that I could not at all avoid. without a direliction
of my public duly. I would not have taken any part in this
enquiry did not a sense uf duty impel toe; and I declare to
God, Idoit a ith the utmost pails and reluctance. I say no
SIMI/ can vote for this Bill unless lie thinks the substantial
parts of the ',metallic proved; and unless I think the adul-
ts:tow intercourse has been proved, 1 c movie conscientiously
give ins, vote fur it. lii giving my opinion, I shall not deem
it necessary to examine the evidence notch in detail. My
duty is not to sum up, but uuly to state my opinion. We
are all Judges, all Jurors, and do not proved on the priori-
tilde ufsuiniiiing up the evidence, hut fur communicating to
to each other our opinious and discussiug the seine. Much
lies beau said was the subject of* Bill a Pains and Penalties.
and it has been often repeated that they can only be justified
when the beets of the couniry requires that they should he
resorted to. But not to go further back than the Revolution,
there have hreu since that period several of Pains land
Penalties. where no such necessity existed. 1 have stated
more titan mice, in the course of these proceedings, that a
Bill of Pains and Pen:Blies, if properly conducted, is more
favourable—(l do not wake any treservasioo on its coasti.
tutiunal or unconstitutional character)—to the accused. I
mean if it is proceeded in according to the rules of law and
evideuce. In proceeding by Impeaciiment, the House of
Cum ))))) is decides un sx-parte evidence, and one single vote
can decide a het her an lospeuchinent shall take place or nut,
and if the House so decide, it has no remedy in itself. lit a
Bill of Pains gaud Penalties. examinations take place nn
both sides of the question, and in both roasts, so that arms
error committed one day may be rectified the are!. But
it has been said we are submitting the judgment of this
Howse to time of the House of Commons; this is the case in
all Bills of Divorce. It had been mode another cause of
complaint, that her Majesty had not been furnished with a
specificotiou of the cliaiges, and a list of the is Burnes. But
huw could the charges be more elltctually furnished, than
by producing thc:u at the bar, mid then postponing the
defence till such period us the defendant herself chose? He
admit' it, as ate had before, in the ease of ltaslelli, admitted,
that great advantages are to he gained by tut immediate
(rose-examination of witnesses; but these were fair more
than e ainterbellaticed by the 111114/4,1411y of advantage given
to tie defendant hyoids postponement uf the defeuce.
House were also bowed to keep in remembrance that hes
portent principle of British jurisprudence, thut. in every
case of accusation, that occusatiou was no proof of guilt;
that the party may be innocent, and ought to be held to be
innocent, until clearly loosed to be guiity. Their Lordships
would, therefore, dismiss every prepusession from their ism s
and judge of the case solely triton Use evidence helms theta.
He admitted that there might have been—Hutt their Lord-
ships might take it as his opinion that there had been—a
much greater facility in the productiou of witnesses for the
prosecution than in support of the defence. Of that circum-
stance theaccused party ought,orcourse,to have the benefit.
He admitted also that there might have been corrupt ens
deavours to procure evidence, and that was another t Irmo.
stance of which the accused ought doubtless to have the
benefit, not only as regarded the witnesses who were the
of of that curruptiou, but as regarded others, oa whom
it might throw a reasonable suspicion. lie had, in farming
Iris town opinion, giant all these consiatrations their full
weight.—The easy in which their Lordships aliould look at
ahi question atavthisr—Whether,l>iug ustde all the testi-
mony that could be suspected, tool taking together the
evidence watch ism unsuoit.cted petite part of the prosecus
tiou, and the testimony in answer, with the negative
evidence, or want of evidence, which intent wive been
produced—dues it or dais it nut toopport the eltegai ion of au
adulterous intercourse having existed between her hive:ay
mid Bergamo f lle had so put the c re to himself, sad it did
appear to was sorry to say it, but lie could draw no
11111tf than th it—there had been an adulterous
iaercourre bassets Ace .11ajestj and Ltergada. (Stroll marks
o Yealtilllllll lik! House.) His Lordship did nut
cure ..Ithough tue at bole readeoee of al...pied and Duinuut
acre docerded ; be would wily ask their Lurdships
lit uecompaity him while he took a sums survey but the
circumstances atteuding her filajesty's voyage to the Holy
Time Learned Lord then took 4111414111114111 felllt%t of
the evidence, lout we regret to state, that from the partiality
of it, it bespoke much more of the aliiiister of the Crum a
than the unbiassed drguifi.d Judge. His Lordship cunclutied
by say nog—one word in .re and toe should have done. A. to
it ha: bed passed out sir dour., lie should take no notice of
that, foie lie must be supposed to know uarinmc abut
But whatever he might t honk of treat owl said, tic showd
coniciciiiimisly do his duty. lie had heard Roma that bar
whist it hail given I • great sorrow to hear—simichiug Ike
a threat to weir Lordships—(blear)—Whatever might be
the opinion alt of doors, he wuuld take upon him to say,
that the conduct he ullialed to, was never consistent with the
duty of an Advocate, and the threat ought to have au etlect
upon the decision of their Lordships hear.)-411ey
stood there to protect toe liberty, the citaracter, and the
lives of their kllow sultieets, and he would not Iteslte.e to
say to them, " Be joust and tear not." They would do their
duty, and leave the rest to the wisdomandjustice of God
Lord EtifililNE agreed with the Noble and Learned
Lord on the wu rlsoick, that their Lordships ought to come
shouldto the ;cslui adt°rl i
themselvesw ith I
extra-
neous canoes, bnt that they should be Willi. fear not !
He would go still farther, and say that their Lordships
ploerbeaiiititlnateitriothenrbily,
atil4atlhe
should he prepared to do Justice at any hazard,
and to
adopt, as the rule of their cundio et, fiat justitis runt cotton
—Ale (Lord Erskine) dad not know how to discharge 1113
duty better to their Lordships than by laying his breast
open to them, and awing his opinion on those prucrtd

_

ings. Before the commencement of this business, and on
the death of his late Majesty he was at some distance from
town, and heard with surptier, that the mist step that was
taken was to strike the name of her Majesty out of the
Liturgy, sail thus deprive her of the Prayers of the
Chinch! And yet the Learned Lord on the woolsack,
who had just eat down, had declared, that no person
should lie presumed guilty before trial, and that the scales
of Justice should be held even! However much lie might
condemn such a proceeding, he certeinly then thought
that the Ministers most More had so strong a case against
her Majesty, as to reader her guilt evident beyond the
possibility of a doubt. Whe Ite came to the House, lie
found laying on their Lordships' table the isifurmatious on
which this inquiry had been founded ; and a deter a-
lien to proceed by a Hill oh Pains and Penalties, because
as was stated by a Noble Earl opposite, the crime of
adidiery was not treason, when committed by a foreigner
beyond seas. The charges bed been sent down to the
House of Commons, where they refused to inquire into
them I and would any man now say a Bill of Pains and
Penalties was the sootier mode of proceeding, when the
House of Commons refused to proceed in the inquiry at
all d Tha House of Commons came to a resolution, that
such an inquiry was derogatory to the honour of the
Crown, and injurious to the morals of the people. When
this resolution had passed, the House immediately deter-
mined to address her Itasjesty, to accept the terms offered
her of a comproliiii.e ; but she, with that ti tttttt ess and
consciuustitssuf 111110C1'11C0 which she possessed, date-
mined upon patting herself on her trial in the douse of
Lords. What should have been the duty of Ululate's,
but to restore her Majesty's 1141110 to the Liturgy, and.
according to the recommendetion of the Noble Lord on
the woolsack, antler no prejudice to go against her Ma-
jesty until she was proved guilty. Would tt be said Ilia
depriving the Queen of the Prayers of a whale people
was not declaring her guilty—it was doing more—it was
p ' king her! What were their Lordships doing now—
debating on reading the bill a second time, only to read ii
a third time, and then send it down to the Commons that
had ulseady decided against all inquiry on the subject.—
He (Loud Erskine) was afraid of the consequences of
the two Houses being at issue on this question. The
House of Commons were the Represeutatives of the Peo-
ple; and, after they had declared that there was uo
grossed fur impeachment or inquiry, but that they be-
lieved the Queen innocent, how could their Lordships
send that bill down to them mid request they would ou-
quire into what they had previously decided not to inquire?
The Noble Lord contended, that tiler• was no ground for
preceding by a Hill of Pains met Penalties, since the
charge against her Majesty was a high crime and misde-
meanour, fur which she might hare been tried by cousti
link/seal means. As this had not been the case, it he
believed the Queen as guilty as from the evidence he
believed her i 111 l ecent, lie would vote egeinst the bill,
because an unconstitutional mode of proceeding was
adopted, where a cutedittuional one Was open. 1 must
said the Noble Lord (Erskine) soon ter aaa aa ate my life;
but happy shall 1 be it I die advueal Mg those great
constitutional principles, the vindicating ut which, in
earl, life, raised me Ii the raid, of au 1111011/1i
—The Lord Chancellor had stated that the fact of adulterous
intercourse was the only one to be considered he denied this.
The Noble Lord teen preceded to read the preamble of the
and to comment on me gross indecencies with which she was
charged for sonic years, and in varioas countries t and yet this
sweeping ace 1164141011 hail dwindled down to a ceargeof her sleep-
ing on deck on board a polatxa, attended by her chamberlain,
and this only sworn to by two witnesses, who did not even tie.
clue, that they had any suspicion of a criminal intercourse
having taken place. Tne Noble Lord then proceeded to com-
ment on the evidence of Dumont. which tie said. was not ea.
titled to credit, and declared, mat lie wished lie lad die Queen's
case in the lower Courts before one of the Judges. if adultery
bad been the object of the parties, who could imagine that they
would have exchanged the ounvenient concealment below lot an
open tent 011 deck, where they must be exposed to general obser-
vation and intrusicn ? No person on earth could have thought
of attempting an intercourse under such circumstances. It
would be observed, too, that there had been no mystery about
her Misiesty's coeduct—no impression of that sort had been
produced.
Here the Noble Lord exhibited symptoms of strong indisposi-
tion, and a pause of a minute or two took place. His Lordship
then attempted to resume, but after a few words, sunk down as
in a faint. He was caught in his fall by sonic of the Peers near
him; the windows well opened, and a glass of water brought ;
bat his Lordship continued so ill, that lie was obliged to be borne
out of the House by Lords Grey, Carnsrvon, and Holland.
Lord LAUDERDALE suggested that the House should
adjourn for a quarter of an hour.
The House adjourned accordingly.
On die House resuming,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said thst he could not allow
the debate to go farther without saying a word in explanation.
His Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Erskine), whose absence,
and the cause of it, no man more sincerely lamented, had argued
as if he (the Lord Chancellor) had stated that the case on board
the Pulatea Mimed the whole ease for the prosecution. lie had
said no such thing, All he had meant to say w.ls, that that case
alone had ndlierd to determine his individual judgment. There
were a great many lesser circumstances on winch he had offered
no opinion, but which undoubtedly might have weight with
many of their Lcrtlslii.m.
Lord LAUDERDALE now proceeded to address the:r Lord.
ships. He .hutted to the report of his being sett out Governer
to India, declared its falsehood, professed himself entirely unpre-
judiced, and then went on at great length in a style so strongly
resembling the Lord Chancellor's spate'', that If we were not
convinced the thing were impossible, we should have supposed
the two speechisi had been arranged at a cabinet dinner.
The Earl of ItOSEBEItRY thought that this was a case in
which no Peer ought to give a silent vote; and he hoped the
House would accept this as his apology tie the tew words lie had
to say upon it. Notwithstanding all he ;lad heard, lie could not
reconcile it to his honour and conscience as a Juryman fi give
his assent to the passing of the Hull. On attentively considering
the whole facts and circumstances of the case, tie could not say
that he sus convinced of the existence of that adulterous inter.
course, without a fah cdt.viction ot *loch, as their i.ohlships had
been well told by Noble and Lcarncu lant: on the Weutstie::,
nu Lord ute:ln to give in, vote for the Bill. But he thot:glit ton
House were bounu to extend their views beyond the mac facts
ot• the case. He trusted that they wouid nut be iuducerl by any
tiling Mut had Wien from the Noble Lord 081 me cross be.icii
!Lord Lauderdale), to ettc:ude limn their col sidelaCon Cie pos-
sib.lity ot the bill nut being entertained by the other ileum: of
Parliament. Ile dimwit met they sere bound to 'look at die
whet,: oh the probable effects aid cons-Aluences oldie measure.
lie was the last man who could wish their lairdship; to ect under
any inipiession ut sitliciat; but he It.leiv of
no good that was to in ;,;ained by concealing from themselves
that their cluir..cter was, it he night so speak, upon trial before
the country—not by the mere nibble, but by all the mote valua-
ble and sensible portions of the British community. He implored
their Lordahips to ponder well the effects whicb the Name; of