The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EV.IE:NINO JULY 21 1855.

the Government to refer weight and measures to the
commission ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that it was not.

BILIJETTING OF THE MILITIA.
Mr> WELLS asked the Under Secretary for War
whether, in consequence of the permanent embodying of
the militia, it was the intention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to make any alterationin the present system
of billetting ?
Mr. F. PEEL said it was not the intention of the
Government to introduce any measure into the house ;
but he might state that the embodiment of the militia
had led to the formation of encampments, which had
obviously practically remedied the question raised to a
great extent. (Hear, hear.)
INVALID OFFICERS—COMMISSIONS.

Captain J. PERCY begged to ask the Secretary for
War whether an officer in bad health was required,
before he got leave to sell his commission, to go before
a Medical Board, which B)ard must certify, before he is
allowed to sell, to the following effect :—" That he does
not labour under an impaired constitution, threatening
earlier decease than a person of his age might expect in
the ordinary course of nature."

Mr. F. PEEL said the mode in which application
was made by an officer for leave to sell his commission
greatly depended on the particular circumstances of
each case, and it was therefore impossible to answer a
general question like the one just pat to him. He was
not, however, aware that a formula of this kind was
required. Generally speaking an officer was not allowed
to dispose of his commission when his health was not
such as to give rise to a fear that his life could not be
prolonged.
IMPROVEMENT IN THE PUBLIC PARKS.

Mr. EWART wished to inquire of the Chief Commis-
sioner of Public Works whether it would not be possi-
ble (if not now, at some future time), to throw open to
the public, as a portion of the park, the ground now
inclosed for private use, and inclosing a considerable
space of ground in the centre of Hyde-park, between the
Guard-house and the Humane Society's Receiving-house
near the Serpentine ; also, whether the Government
were willing to submit to the gracious consideration
of her Majesty the expediency of opening to the public
the large park behind Hampton Court Palace, known as
the Rome Park, and now devoted exclusively to the
use of the residents In the palace ; also, whether the
Fountain of Diana in Bushy Park, founded by. William
the Third, was in process of restoration, as promised by
the Government ; and whether, as agreed last year, a
large additional number of seats were to be placed round
all the larger trees in. Kensington-gardens and Hyde-
park for the convenience of the public ?
Sir W. M 0 LESWO RTH, in reply to the first question,
said that a portion of the park now enclosed was used as
a wood garden, and could not be dispensed with ; the
remainder being in the occupation of the Deputy-ranger.
This could not he taken from that functiona'y at pre-
sent ; but when he ceased to hold office he (Sir W.
Molesworth) apprehended there would be no difficulty
in transferring that portion to the public use. (Elf ar,
hear.) As to the second portion, it was not correct
that the Home-park was exclusively used by the resi-
dents in Hampton Court Palace ; the fact being that the re-
spectable residents in the neighbourhood were permitted to
use it. There was, however, no intention on the part i f the
Government to recommend its being further thrown
open. With respect to the Diana fountain it was in

proee.,s of restoration, and he was informed would soon
be completed. Lastly, a considerable su,n of money had
been expanded in the purchase of seats for Kensington-
gardens ; and a number of seats, capable of accommo-
dating 400 persons, had lately been erected.
NATIONAL GALLERIES AND MUSEUMS.
Mr. EWART asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether the Government was willing to cause to be
affixed to the works of art (paintings, statues, monu-
ments), and specimens in our different national collec-
tions—the National Gallery, Hampton Court Palace,
the British Museum, and similar public institutions—

short descriptive tablets or inscriptions, giving the sub-
ject of the work, the name and date of the artist, the
school to rhich he belongs, and such other brief histori-
cal or scientific information as may be instructive to the
public ?

Lord PALMERSTON said he was much obliged to
his hon. friend for the suggestion, which was one well
worthy of consideration, and as it might be complied
with at no very great public expense would no doubt be
carried out. (Hear, hear )
THE DANUBIAN PRINCIPALITIES.

In reply to Mr. LAYARD,
Lord PALMERSTON said it was obviously very in,
convenient that the Government should be asked to
state what precise conditions they should require in
future negotiations. The detailed arrangements in re-
gard to the first and second points were settled condi-
tionally ; the condition being that the whole '....treaty
should be satisfactorily arranged. That not being
the case, the Government held themselves free
to re-discuss any of the matters that were
provisionally 'agreed to with respect to the Principali-
ties. What he understood as the fundamental principle
of the first point was that Russia should not exercise
that exclusive protection of the Principalities which she
had hitherto done. With regarl to the commission to
which the honourable member had referred, there
was no commission sitting at Vienna for the purpose
of discussing a Government for the Principalities. There
was, however, a commission of a different kind sitting,
consisting of English, Austrian, and Turkish represen-
tatives, who were, empowered to receive representations
coming from the inhabitants of the Principalities as to
any grievances or complaints in respect to the occupying
troops. He understood his noble friend (Lord Clarety-
don) had received representations from some gentlemen
who were not residents in the Principalities, and con-
sequently could not be held as authorities. (Hear.)
VICE-ADMIRAL SIR CHARLES NAPIER- AND
THE ORDER OF THE BATH.

Mr. LAYARD wished to ask the noble lord at 'the
bead of the Goyernment why Sir Charles Napier bad
been excluded from the honour of the Order of the
Bath which had been conferred upon so many others ?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the exclusion, as
the hon. gentleman termed it, had caused great regret to
the Government, but that exclusion was self-imposed by
the gallant officer. Sir C. Napier was informed that
his name had been represented to her Majesty for the
honour of the Grand Cross of the Bath ; but for reasons
of which the gallant officer must himself be the best
judge he had declined to receive the honour.
THE VIENNA CONFERENCE.

In answer to a question from Mr. DISRAELI,
Lord PALMERSTON stated that he should object
to give to the house a copy of the whole instructions
that had been given to the noble lord the member for the
City of London before he proceeded to Vienna. He had
no objection, however, to give to the house those parts
of the instructions which would have the effect of filling
up the hiatus in the papers that were now before the
house.

NUISANCES REMOVAL (IRELAND) BILL.
The SOLICITOR•GENERAL for IRELAND, in
answer to a question from an hon. member, stated that
it was his intention to proceed with the bill in the pre-
sent session, if it was not opposed, but if there was to
be considerable opposition to the measure he should
feel himself bound to postpone proceeding with the mea-
sure to next session.
On the question that the house at its rising should
adjourn to Monday next,
RETIRED OFFICERS.

Colonel NORTH asked the Under-Secretary for War
whether those officers who wished to take advantage of
the Queen's late warrant for the retirement of officers
upon fall pay, and' obtaining 'a step in rank, would be
permitted to retain the reward for distinguished service
which her. Majesty had been graciously pleased to grant
to them ?
Mr. PEEL said that that would certainly be the case,
and that officers who had done distinguished service
would be-allowed to retire, and continue on full pay as
long as they lived.
After some observations from Sir DE LACY EVANS,
the subject dropped.
Mr. BRIGHT, referring to a transaction that had
recently taken place on the coast of Africa, stated that
some doubt had arisen with regard to certain slaves
taken on board canoes by the authority of the British
Crown. There was some question raised about compen-
sation, to the extent 'of about $1,000; the chief was given
half an hour to make his appearance, but as he did not
do so the town was shelled and partly destroyed that
day, and on the following day another engagement took
place, in which 70 or 80 troops were killed or wounded,
and about 400 of the enemy, as they were called. The
question turned upon the violation of a treaty which he
believed wag not 'yet in force, as it had not received the
sanction of Parliament. He wished to know whether
the Government had received any_ information upon the
subject, and whether they intencted to institute a special
inquiry into the case ?
Sir C. WOOD said that no despatchei had been re-
ceived at the Admiralty on the subject, and he bad no
reason to place any confidence in the report.
The motion that the house on its rising should ad-
journ till Mondarwas then agreed to.

METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Viscount EBRINGTON presented a petition from Clap-
ham against. the qualification clause, and said he protested
against being considered an opponent to local self-govern-
--meat, or that he wished to throw obstacles in the way of
the bill. The fact that the provisions of,the measure were
agreed to when generally there were not more than-thirty
or forty, members present was.the beat proof that there was
no decided hostility to the bill, which had been very much
;improved during its progress through the house. Having
made these. observations, he was willing that the bill be
.read a third time. -
Sir H. IVILLOUGEIRY doubted whether the right hon.
gentleman had chosen the best machinery for carrying out
his measure. He feared that the boards would be found too

numerous, and that the owners of property, as distinguished
from.the ratepayers, were not sufficiently considered. He
also thought that what was good for the metropolis would be
good for ad the totvria and districts in the United Kingdom.
(Hear, hear.) (Sir H. Willoughby) begged to call the at-
tention of the right hon. gentleman to the fact that the
Metrop9litan Board, to whom there was to be an appeal in
cases where compensation was sought for by persons who
now held offices, had the power to refuse all compensation
whatever. _

Lord SEYMOUI said it was agreed in the committee
that a clause should be introduced limiting the time after
which no sewerage would be allowed to go into the river
Thames.

Sir B. HALL said that what he understood with rofe-
rence to this was,--that there should be an appeal to the
Metropolitan Board of Works, but before the appeal was
brought the board should be consulted, and then, the ap-
pellant:might go before the, board to have his cape heard.
What he (Sir B. Hall) 0bj•'ci,,,,41 to was toE.:t any, teferenco
o aid be toads to the l'reamiis, because be thought this
was a case in which the Government should not interfere
in the. slightest degree, , Iu answer to the question. of the
noble lord, he begged to %tate that a time had been fized

after which no drainage should go into the river Thames,
and that time was five years after next December. (Hear.)
The bill was then read a third time.
Mr. H. BARING brought up a clause for the purpose
of excluding the chairman of the Metropolitan Board from
a seat in the House of Commons.

Lord R. GROSVENOR objected to the exclusion of an
indi vi Ina' from the house, who might be able to throw
light upon difficult subjects, and hoped his hon. friend
would not persist in urging the adoption of the clause.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought it would be of great impor-
tance to have the chairman of the board in the house.
Viscount EBRINGTON considered that the presence of
the chairman in the house would load to inconvenience by
a great deal of time being taken up in asking him ques-
tions. . . . . . .

Mr. PBRCY said that when they took into considera-
tion the various duties the chairman of the board would
have to perform, it must be apparent that he could not
have time to attend to his duties as a member of that house.
Sir B. HALL sincerely hoped that the house would not
agree to the proposition that had been made by his hon.
friend.

Mr. HENLEY saw no reason for excluding the chair-
man of the board when the Lord Mayor of London was
allowed to have a seat in the house.
Mr. BARING, seeing the feeling of the house was
against him, begged to withdraw his clause.
On the motion of Sir B. HALL four new clauses were
adopted and added to the bill in the following order ; the
first was introduced after clause 83, the second after clause
P.S, the third after clause 230, and the fourth after clause
235.
A motion of Viscount EBRINGTON for the omission of
clause 6 was oppcsed by Sir B. HALL, and negatived.
Viscount EBILINGTON proposed an alteration in clause
7, for the purpose of removing a ground of objection
respecting which he had receive communications from
several persons of property. It was proposed by the
clause that the existing vestry, elected for a totally
different purpose, and under a perfectly different system
of voting, should continue for two years practi-
cally to have the management of the affairs of the
parishes in their hands. Some of the wealthiest districts
were at present totally unrepresented, and yet it was pro-
posed to put the repairs of hundreds of miles of streets, and
the drainage of whole districts, under the control of this
body. In conclusion he moved the omission of certain
words from the clause, and the insertion of others to get
rid of the objectionable part of it.
Sir B. HILL said the effect of the noble lord's amend.
ment would be to require the four parishes of the metro-
polis under the operation of Hobhouse's Act should go again
to an election of vestrymen immediately after the passing
of the act, though the vestrymen elected in May 13,st wore
chosen under the understanding that they would have to
carry into effect the provisions of a similar bill. He had
reason to believe, from the constant communication he had
had with the inhabitants of those parishes that olijections
to the clause were entertained only in individual cases, and
that they were framed iu accordance with the sentiments
generally prevailing.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the noble lord had taken up
ground on this bill totally at variance with the *pinions
and feelings of his constituents.
After some further conversation the amendment was
negatived.
A number of verbal amendments were made in different
clauses, and the bill plssed.
TURKISH LOAN.

The house then went into committee of the whole house,
Mr. Fitzroy in the chair.
Viscount PALMERSTON rose to move the follosving re-
solution :—" That it is the opinion of this committee, that
henMajeaty be authorised to guarantee the payment of the
interest on the loan of five millions sterling, to be contracted
for by his Imperial Majesty the Sultan, in pursuance of the
Con vention signed at London on the 27th day of June, 1835,
between her Majesty, his Majesty the Emperor of theFrencle
and his Imperial liajesty the Sultan, and that re °vision be
inadeout of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom,
or the growing produce thereof, for the issue of such sums
of money from time to time as may bo required to 'pay any
interest which may at any time be required to fulfil the
guarantee of her Majesty in respect of such interest, con-
formably to the teuour of her Majesty's engagement, as spe-
°flied in the said Convention, together with the attending
charges of management thereon." The noble viscount
seiel—The convention on which this resolution is founded
was entered into by the two allied Governments with Tur-
key in accordance with and in fulfilment of those common
views which have actuated the two Governments and the
people of the two countries with respect to the war in
which we are now engaged. That war was undertaken for
the defence, present and future, of Turkey, and it was the
opinion of all those who have concurred in the justice etre
policy of the war that it ought to be prosecuted with all the
vigour and energy which the resources of the several parties
admit of being employed. No doubt great efforts hiave been
made, and will continue to be made, by the Governments
of England and France, and for that purpose large armies
have been sent, and great fleets have been fitted out,
and stationed in the two seas, the Euxine and the
Baltic. But it is manifest that the exertions of
the two countries could not be attended with those
results which we are entitled to aim at, and which are
essential to the accomplishment of the objects for which
the war is undertaken, unless the efforts of those
two countries, comparatively distant as they are, can be
efficiently seconded by the efforts of the country itself
most nearly and deeply interested in the contest. Every-
body is aware of what I may call the noble struggle which
Turkey has made in this war, the great and successful
efforts of her army during the greater part of a twelve-
month in defending the northern frontier of her territory.
The success and magnitude of those efforts exceeded, I be-
lieve, the expectation of almost all those persons who had
turned their attention before to the resources of Turkey.
There were few persons who believed that there was
amongst the Turkish nation that feeling of enthusiastic
j devotion to the cause of their country which had linen ex-
hibited by the Turks in this war, or that there was in the
Turkish army that power of combination and resistance
which was manifested by the army under the command of
Omer Pacha on the Danube. There were few persons who
believed that the Turkish empire had financially Or mate-
rially those ample resources for war which had been re-
quired and furnished hithertointhe course of the contest. It
had been foretold that her resources must inevitably prove
deficient in the ability to sustain a protracted contest, and
especially that her finances might fail to supply the de-
mand of the troops upon them. They, however, have made
great exertions hitherto and, to a great extent, the troops
have been supplied out Of the ordinary revenues of Turkey.
But it is no disparagement to the Turkish empire to say that
her ordinary resources are not equal to the great and impor-
tant struggle in which she is engaged, because that happens
in all countries engaged in war. It happens here, it happens
in France, and, from the information we receive, we believe
that in Russia the difference between the ordinary revenue
and the war expenditure is greater than even in England
and France. We have been informed, and I believe on good
authority, that whereas the ordinary revenue of Russia
amounts to about 30,000,0001. sterling, that the expenses of
the war have certainly equalled, if they have not surpassed,
double that amount. The ordinary revenues of Turkey
amount to about ten millions sterling. In the course of the
last year they were obliged to resort to a loan to increase
their available means. A loan was negotiated, nominally
intended to be five millions, but of which I believe be-
tween two and three millions have been realised—a sum
not sufficient for the wants of the Turkish Government.
And they have put it to the English and French Govern-
ments that unless additional means are found to defray the
expenses of the current military and naval services of Tur-
key they would come to a stand, and that it would be ilia-
possible for Turkey out of her ordinary revenue to find the
means to defray the necessary and indispensable expenses
of the war. The subject has been long and seriously con-
sidered by the English and French Governments. We
felt !,that, while making great exertions in favour of
Turkey, if we allowed the very body we wished to sup-
port to fall to pieces for want of internal resources, we
should be defeating the object we had in view, and ren-
dering fruitless all the great efforts we were making in
their support; that, unless the Turkish Government were
supplied with the means of supporting their own
army, it would be in vain for England and France to send
an army to defend their territory. Then came the
question. How was that additional supply to be given ?
There were two different ways in which that assistance
might be afforded. The two Governments might have had
recourse to that system which this country resorted to in
the last war, by furnishing a subsidy to the power whom
we intended to assist. That, 'of course, was not considered
expedient either by the French Government or by the
English. There are many objections to that course, both in
regard to the party who is to furnish the subsidy and to
the real interests of the party to whom that subsidy was to
be granted. If you wish that a power should have real vita-
lity, you must teach that power to rely as far as possible
on its own resources, and if temporary assistance is to be
required it should be given as much as possible on the
means and responsibility of the party who is to receive that
extraordinary aid. We therefore thought it expedient to
give a subsidy to Turkey. We thought the best way in
which we could aid Turkey was to give her the assistance
of the credit of France and England byguaranteeing a loan,
the interest and sinkingfund of which should be paid out of
the revenue of Turkey herself. Then came the question
whether, taking the amount which the Turkish Govern-
ment thought it desirable to raise at five millions, the two
Governments should each guarantee half that sum, or
whether the two Governments should jointly guarantee
the whole amount, taking an engagement as between
themselves practically to take their share half and half of
the liability, supposing that to arise. Undoubtedly the
former method is that which the British Government first
thought of, and perhaps it is that most in accordance with
the habits and views of this country, and more in confor-
mity with the precedent of former cases of the same kind.
But the French Government laid great stress on itspreference
of the latter method—namely, that which has been adopted;
and we thought, under the circumstances of the case, and
considering the right of France to have an opinion on the
matter, that as the arrangement would come to the same
result in. he one case as in the other, we were bound so
far to defer to the wish of the French Government as to
adopt the system dais:Ant guarantee. The question is— What
is the probability that Turkey, out of her own resources,
will be able to pay in future the amount which will become
due as interest on the loin and on account of the sinking'
fund ? And I think there is every reasonable expectation
that Turkey will have ample means to make good that en-
g Igen:wilt, without throwing any real and practical burthen
on the finances cf her two allies. The resources of Turkey
are infinitely greater than have been yet developed. She
hat resources of commerce which are annually iucreasing,
and under happier circumstances, no doubt, will he very
materially and extensively developed. The Turkish terri-
tories contain Mines of every kind—mines of metal and
eual that only require to be worked to produce ample re-
sources to the Government of that country, and it is to be
hoped that other improvements will take place that will
tend Lo (IL-Art:lope the natural resources of the country. Un-
fortunatelY it has been the case in Turkey that, whenever
its Government wished to make any material improvement
iu the internal arrangements calculated to give additional
strength to the institutions of the country, or add to its
resources financial or defensive, that the influence of Rus-
sian agency has interposed, and, by means which were al-
ways at her command, have either totally paralysed the in-
tended action, or so crippled it as to prevent its producing
the result which might otherwise have been expected. It
is to be hoped that these influences will hereafter have less
power than they have heretofore exercised, and therefore
we hope that the engagements we ask the house to ratify
will afford the Turkish Government the means of co-ope-
rating with tho allies and of carrying on effectually the ;
contest in which we are engaged, and that, on the other ;
.hand, there is no good reason to fear that in the end that
engagement will be productive of any financial bnrthen to j
this country. The immediate security given is the avail-
able surplus of the.tribute from Egypt. That, after provid-
ing for the interest and the sinking fund on account of the
loan of last :sear, will amount to 65,000 t. a-year, for the pay-
Inentof interest and the creation of a sinking firm.! for this
I see . Be orb that yoalrave aeseceatiSe the Lair. loveaue.l
,
ail:: s. empire. and aril-,,,glEcnti will be Inadeto:::;:ntt
certain parts of that revenue, and to provi ie the manna,
from time to time, of meeting the interest and the demands
of the sinking AM. It is the interest of the two Gloyern,

ments tifs make arrangements with the Turkish Govern- 1:
ment, to,which we anticipate noobstacle at Constantinople, '
to provide that arrangements shall be made which shall
secure that the, money so raised by loan for military ser-
vice in Turkey shall be applied to that military service, so
that while engagements are entered into on the one hand
to enable Turkey to raise money, that on the other hand
the Governments of England and France alien have the
certainty that the money shall be applied to the objects for
which it was raised. Now, considering the great import-
ance of the struggle in which we are engaged, and the ab-
solute necessity of furnishing the Turkish Government in
some way or other with the means of playing her part in
this great struggle, and considering also the results that
must ensue if the Turkish army were to fall to pieces for want
of the ordinary means of keeping it together in a state of
efficiency, I cannot persuade myself that the house will not
be disposed to concur with her Majesty in the engagement
which this convention records, but will, by passing this
resolution in the first place, and then the bill that will be
founded upon it, afford her Majesty the means of making
good the engagement contingently contracted on the under-
standing that this house will assist her in making good that
sum. I believe that the feeling which is universal in this
house and in the country, that every effort should be made
for carrying ou the war with the vigour that must lead to
success, will induce honourable gentlemen to consider this
as one of the most indispensable measures for the attainment
of that object, and that therefore I shall obtain the sanc-
tion of the house to the resolution I have now, sir, placed
in Your hands.
Sir. RICARDO said that when he recollected we were
by this loan entering into the old system of subsidies which
now weighed so heavilyon the nation, and when he saw by a
return obtained by the late Mr. Hume that the amount of
subsidies granted during the late war, in the twenty years
previous to 1816, was no less than 58 millions, he must vote
against the proposition of the nobleilsord , unless he was shown
some immediate and imperative reason for having recourse
to this system. It was a singular instance of the proof of
the way in which this system worked that no less a sum than
nine millions and a half of the subsidies granted during the
late war were given to Russia. It was clear that if that
subsidy had not been given her powers of aggression must
now have been materially less. When we granted the
Greek loan we took a different course. That loan of two
millions and a half was given to the king we had appointed.
There were then three guaranteeing powers. Did we give
a joint guarantee? No; each power guaranteed its own
portion, and therefore on the failure of the Greek Govern-
ment to pay the interest, we had only to pay our own share
of the loss ; nor had we had any quarrels on that account
with any other of the guaranteeing powers. But might that
be the case on the system of a joint guarantee? Suppose
that a change should take place in the Government of
France, and that the new Government should refuse to pay
their share Of the interest of the loan, not only might we
be obliged to pay.the whole interest, but we might be in-
volved in endless quarrels and difficulties with France. He
did not wonder that France wished for a joint guarantee,
because in that case it was clear that the English credit
became that on which the whole loan was granted. When
a mercantile man saw two names on the back of a bill of
exchange, he did not care for the second name if he sa a the
first was a good one. It was the highest credit that ruled
the market. The great question, however, for them to con-
sider was whether this guarantee was absolutely necessary.
He believed the House of Commons was quite ready to
grant the Chancellor of the Exchequer all the means neces-
sary for carrying on the war, but he thought they ought to
pause before they undertook to pay the expenses of another
nation as well as ourselves. They ought to have the clearest
proof of the necessity of the case. It was true that the noble
lord assured the house that there was nos the slightest risk
of our being called upon to pay a sixpence of this interest,
because the whole revenue of Turkey was pledged to us
as a security. Well the noble lord gave precisely the same
assurance in 1832, when the Greek loan was iu course of
negotiation. But did Greece sow pay the interest of that

Loan ? It was clear that it Turkey could pay us the inte-
rest of the loan out of her resources there was no reason
why she should not pay tho public their interest on the
loan without guarantee, and wny they should not trust her
on this security. Indetsi Turkey had actually raised money
at a high price. The last loan now stood at 9, in the urea -
ket, and he lead been told by a gentleman that he halt of-
fered to take the remaining 2i millions of the last loan at
85, and that he knew a French banking-house who were
ready to advance it at 86. That showed that she could
raise money herself. He granted it would be at a high rate
of interest. But he did not see why we should step forward
at the beginning of the struggle to assist Turkey iu her first
difficulties. He believed we had 1114, up to the present mu-
ment, an outlay exceed ingin extravagance the late war. The
House of Commons had absolutely placed no check on expen-
diture; and it who wished to secure the least prudence in the
management of the finances had been accused of starving
the war. Now, he certainty thought that these matters
should be more closely looked to. Why, the other night
the Minister of War told the House of Lords that he was
about to double the pay of the army in the Crimea, and
that without the least communication with that house.
Then, again, the Cirancelltr of the Exchequer told the
house' in the most careless manner, and only in answer to
a casual question, that he had exceeded the estimates for
the year, and should present supplemental estimates. And
with respect to this 1, an, the first they knew of it was that
a Communication had been laid before the French Cham-
bers stating that we were to guarantee half of this Turkish
subsidy. That was not the way in which they ought to be
treated. He should certainly divide the house against the
resolution. (Hear )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the guarantee, anti said that, though it was a joint one of
the two Governments over the whole loan, yet France and
England had entered into an agreement between them-
selves by which, in case of their being called on, each
would be responsible for her own share of the 'debt.
Mr. GLADSTONE said this measure opened a ques-
tion which the people of England had ever regarded with
mistrust, suspicion, and jealousy. He did not dispute the
principle that we might in case of necessity lend direct
pecuniary aid to our ally ; but then that necessity must
bo clearly shown, and he did not think that had been done
in the present case, He did not see much difference be-
tween a subsidy and a guarantee ; he objected to guaran-
tees as Much as to subsidies, and if he objected to'guaran-
tees in general, he objected most strongly to the, present
guarantee'' which Ws.s joint and several between France and
England. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was a
private arrangement between France and England, by
which each took its own share of responsibility. But
that did not appear on the face of the treaty, and he fore-
saw endless political difficulties in connection with
it. Suppose the war were over, that the interest
was not paid by Turkey, that France was of opinion Tur-
key could pay and England was of opinion she could not,
who was to settle the difference ? He showed the difference
between this guarantee and the direct and open loan made
by this country to Sardinia, and while he admitted that
the house had nothing to do with making treaties, they bad
to do with•ratifying them ; and ho for one could not agree
to ratify this loan, founded as it was on the principles of
which Mr. Pitt and the men of his generation would have
been ashamed.

Lord I'.N.LHERSMON said the only difference between

Mr. Gladstone and himself, so far as he could perceive, way
whether there should be a guarantee or a direct loan, or

even a subsidy. As to the political difficulties which the
right hon. gentleman apprehended from our jointguarantee
with France, he stated that political difficulties had risen
out of the separately guaranteed loan to Greece, for the
other guaranteeing parties had protested against England
taking steps to recover her share from Greece.
Mr. DISRA.E Ll—Without doubt, sir, this is one of the
most important qiieitions which has occupied the attention
of Parliament this session, and the circumstances of this
loan are such that the public mind ought to be directed to
it. lam not prepared to say that the loan which has been
already made to Sardinia was impolitic, and the arrange-
ments made with regard to it were perhaps as unobjection-
able as arrangements of the kind could be; but I must say
that it was a subject which deserved greater consideration
from the house than it received. We have now a much
larger proposition, is a form very different, and in a shape
which ought to make the committee pause before it agrees
to it. The noble lord at the head of the Government has
dwelt upon the point that this is not a subsidy, but a loan.
Lord PALMERSTON—A loan to ba raised by Turkey.
Mr. DISRAELI—Yes, and the noble lord recommends
it to the committee, on the ground that the immediate bur-
den cannot be felt the country; but I can make no dif-
ference iu a country like England between national credit
and national capital. (Hear, hear.) If England guarantees
a loan, I cannot admit that we can consider it a liability
which we may not be called upon to discharge. (Hear.)
If the security offered by Turkey were of the least objec-
tionable nature, I should say that we should regard our
liability in the same light; and if the security to be given
by Turkey be really of the nature described by the noble
lord, I do not think she would be an unsuccessful applicant
in the market where nations are in the habit of negotiating
loans of this sort. But I confess I look with an eye, of
some incredulity on the resources of Turkey, and upon her
means of discharging this liability. The noble lord says
that he has no doubt that Turkey will fulfil her engage-
ment if the loan be guaranteed by England and France.
The noble lord touched upon the resources of Turkey with
that rich colour which we see given in the announcements
of joint-stock companies. (Laughter.) He spoke of her
mines, and of her other resources, and he expressed
his opinion that there was no doubt whatever but that
Turkey would be able to pay the interest, and also
the instalments towards the sinking fund. But what,
let me ask, were the anticipations of the noble lord with
regard to the Greek loan in 1832 ? When he recommended
a similar case to the consideration and the sanction of Par-
liament with reference to that loan in August, 1832, he
said that the three Powers had guaranteed a loan of
60,000,000 of florins, and that for his own part he had no
doubt that, when Greece was settled, it would make a
spring in commerce and agriculture which would not only
enable her to pay the interest on the loan, but to dispense
with the necessity of raising the third portion, and perhaps
the second. The noble lord has given to-night an equally
sanguine opinion with regard to the resources of Turkey,
but I find, on looking at our finance accounts for the year
ended the sth of January, 1855, the following entry
"To payment of interest and sinking fund, Greek
Loan, 47,6371. Is. 4d."
I fear that, in the same manner, we must be prepared to see

in our financial accounts of future years a portion of the
public treasure, raised from the taxes of the people. charged
to the liquidation of the interest and sinking fund of the
Turkish loan. (Hear) I do not say that it is not to the
interest of England that this loan should be raised, but I
contend that we should have a clear idea of the full extent
of the engagements and liabilities we are about to incur.
(Hear.) I therefore look upon this proposition of the noble
lord to guarantee the pzincipal and interest of the loan as
an engagement which wo must be prepared to fold!.
Lard PALKERSTON—We are not to guarantee the
princifal.
Mr.DISRA.ELI— ;Well, I look upon it as an engagement,
as far as it goes, which we must not only be. prepared to
fulfil, bat which r.-e will have to fulfil. I object to arrange-
meats of this kind as matters of policy. (Hear, hear.) I
say that you are bound to prove the necessity of the polioy
you recommend, and wo have not before us any circum-
stance to show that it is necessary. fur us to enter into en-
gagements of this nature. The noble lord opposite says
that Turkey has been called upon to make great exertions,
but that she has not the means at this moment to enable
her to do so. But we have no information, before us to as-
sure us of that fact, and I think we are entitled to have
some definite details submitted to us before we enter upon
the arrangement which the Government has invited us to
make. (Hear.) And I would ask, if we admit this system
of guaranteeing loans, where is the line to be drawn ? for
on tho noble lord's plea on behalf of Turkey I do not see
why this loan should not be for 10,000.000/. We have no
data given to us as to the application of this money, or the
mode of its expend ture ; and I think the committee ought
to pause and consider whether they are not entering upon
a system which may begin this session, but the result of
which may be indefinite; and which may gradually increase
the liabilitiesef this country and aggravate the burr) EJTIS Will• h
we oer.elvee z).rs; .7f iL la i i c i s (;st,
111.7
t:',%; :e •vf',
for us to incur this expeudituz e under our own cunrul
than commence a system which, whether it be loan or sub-
sidy, is au, advance of the public troapure, whigh, in all

probability will not be.repaid, and which will increase the
national liebidties or England. The noble lord has des-
cribed the system as one which is the most useful to Tur-
key, while it is the least burdensome to England ; but I
object to it because I think it is founded upon an erroneous
principle. I object to it because there is something so cap
tivating in the expression that the attention of the corn
mittee is directed from the real question at issue, namely—
whether we should increase our liabilities in order to
assist Turkey. I deny that the system proposed is the
least burdensome to England. (Hear, hear.) It is no less
burdensome than any other means by which England can
raise money, and it is no more burdensome. It must not,
therefore, be said that the Government has got a mode of
benefitting Turkey which is less disadvantageous to
England, for she incurs precisely the same liability.
The committee has to consider that the only question
before it is, whether we are to advance capital for the
benefit of Turkey? The noble lord says that there is an
objection to the form of the guarantee. The proposition
before us is, that we should give a joint and several guaran-
tee with France for the entire i terest upon 5,000,000/.
In this respect the convention differs from that made in
1832 for the Greek loan; but, if I mistake not, the first
proposition made for the Greek loan in that year was made
in the form now recommended by the noble lord. It was
wisely refused by the noble lord who was then Secretary
of State, and two years afterwards circumstances arose
which would have rendered a joint guarantee in the high-
est degree ernbarassing to this country. The noble lord
has very wisely decided that tha guarantee should be a
joint one, and now he says the form of that guarantee is
preferable to that of 1832. It certainly appears, at the first
blush, that a separate guarantee is the most, simple and the
least liable to give rise to international difficulties, and yet
what occurred in the year 183 G, when the noble lord was
obliged to come down to the house to ask for fresh powers
to enable England to fulfil her engagement,_ ? (Hear )
In 18 i 6 the noble lord the Prime Minister moved for leave
to bring in a bill to amend the 2d and 3d Wm. IV., which
was known as the Greek loan. The noble lord was obliged
on that occasion to come down anti introduce a bill to en
able him to fulfil engagements which the country had en-
tered into in 1832, and yet it was not in reference to a
joint guarantee, but only to a separate guarantee. I find,
on 28th of July in the same year, the noble lord moved for
a committee on the Greek loan, and made a statement
showing the existence of a difference between France and
England on the one hand, and Russia on the other, with
respect to the advances. The committee will, therefore,
see that even on the Greek loan—even with only a sepa-
rate guarantee—the noble lord was obliged to come down
and introduces new bill to enable him to fulfil engagements
subject to comparatively slight restrictions in cornparisen
with those he now proposes to encounter. What would
have been the situation of the noble lord, under these
circumstances, if, he had been engaged with a joint
guerantee, supposing France and Russia bad re-
fused to carry out their share of the guarantee.
and had not paid the interest on the loan ? Why, the noble
lord would have been obliged to pay the interest on the
whole loan. The noble lord must pardon me if I look upon
the proposition he has now made, of England entering into
a joint guarantee, not only with suspicion, but with great
alarm. If we found a separate guarantee liable to such
misinterpretation, and tending to such complications and
difficulties that we required all the ability and energy of
the noble lore to arrange them at that time, what may now
be the possible consequences of our entering at this mo-
ment into ajoiuts guarantee with our ally ? et is because
I estimate that alliance as high as the noble lord or any
man in the country, that I am anxious to keep that connec-
tion as pure as possible of financial engagements. The noble
lord has himself acknowledged the possibility of a mis-
understanding with an ally under :null circumstances;
but why should se go out of our way to enter into
engagements of this kind which were pregnant with
so much difficulty and danger, when we have before
us, if we are obliged to have'recourse to this system of as-
sisting Turkey—:s precedent which has proved efficient to
meet all those difficulties which are probably always insu-
eereble from financial engaeements. Irrespective of my
objection to the original scheme of coming forward to do
what is called assisting Turkey, by using tfie credit—that
is, the cepital of England—in a manner which appears to
me most crude, without having before us any detailed es-
timate of the circumstances which justify in the opinion
of the Government, such an advance ; irrespective of that
objection, I must'say I greatly object to the form the noble
lord has recommended us to adopt. The noble lord says
there will be au arrangement made by which we shall have
a control over the finances of Turkey, which may secure to
us the receipt of our interest, and of that sum which is
necessary from the public revenue to form a sinking fund
for this loan • and be also says that commissioners are to
be appointed in the Turkish empire for this groat object;
but this appears to me to be an arrangement pregnant with
great difficulties and dangers.
Lord PALMERSTON— We are to be distributors of the
proceeds.
Mr. DISRAELI—If we are to be the distributors of the
proceeds of the loan, then I think the noble lord has en-
tered into an arrangement infinitely more to be deprecated.
If we are not only to supply the funds, but also to distri-
bute and divide thene, when we call upon Turkey to pay
the interest and advances, we shall have a perpetual quar-
rel as to the mode in which the original loan has been ex-
pended. She will always say, We are payine' interest on
money which we have not received, or which has not been
expended for the public benefit. Let the noble lord only
look atthe pleas preferred by the South American States as
reasons for not paying the public debts they had contracted
with respective Governments. They have always said,
" These loans have been negotiated in so expensive a manner
that we have not received more than a moiety of two-thirds
isf the nominal capital for which we are debtors, and there-
fore we shall not pay any portion whatever." You will be in
the same position in Turkey if you adopt the arrangements
recommended,by her Majesty's Ministers. I am altogether
opposed to these advances to States in the position in which
Tarkey is placed, but if you are to make advances let
them be advances paid bona fide into the hands of the
Turkish Government. (Rear.) I sincerely hope the com-
mittee will pause before it sanctions the resolution before
the hoitse. This is the second advance which has been
asked eor-during the present session to assist a foreign
Power It is an advance of the capital of England upon
aninstifficient security. I see no reason why a sum larger
in amount may not be recommended in a very short time
to be again advanced for the assistance of Turkey. (Hear.)
The description given by the noble lord of the destitution
of Turkey is so vague, but at the same time is so alarm-
ing, that, if you admit his present precedent, there is no
reason why it may not be a precedent for larger de-
mands to be again, and even perpetua:ly, if the war
lasts, recommended for the sanction of Parliament.
My advice is, that this is a step we should not autho-
rise. If the Government can come forward and show
that there are special objects in regard to which it may be
of importance to assist Turkey, it will be for the committee
to consider whether those objects cannot be better obtained
by more directly expending these sums of money under our
own control and by our own. means. The Government,
however, favour. us with no details; they have not stated
upon what grounds they founded their estimate; we do
not know whether five millions or ten millions will be suf-
ficient , to attain the specific object in the mind of the
Minister. But, by agreeing to this question, we shall be
establishing a precedent which will, in my mind, have a
most injurious effect .u*pen the finances of this country.
All that I would do would be to entreat the cotnmitt e
to reconsider well the financial position of our own coun-
try itself. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has to-night
appeared to be surprised that a right honourable gentleman
on this side of the house should have complained that
we should only „it'd now—almost at the end of the
session—haves become aware of the intention of the
Government to appoint another committee of ways arid
-means, awl this, too, after we bad voted an amount of pub-
lic money this year larger than had been voted for the last
40 years, But I do not think we oughr to have owed it to
a chance inquiry of the bon. baronet the member for Ever-
sham (Sir H. Willoughby) to be told that we are, at the
end of July, to prepare to go into committee of ways and
means. I think it would have been us well if this notifica-
tion had been made in a more formal and ceremonious man-
ner. All I know is, that it was an inquiry made in so low
a tone of voice, and answered in' a tone of voice so little
mere elevated, that very few hon. gentleman in the house
were really aware of the important inquiry and reply eve
were faVoured with. This is a very important considera-
tion, for it is quite impossible to shut our eyes to the
serious state of ' our finances. Great as are the resources
of this country, we must not be afraid of calling it this
serious state of our finances. I have no doubt that, what-
ever sacrifices we are called upon to make the country
are prepared to make for the great object now at
stake. The country, however, ought to have precise
ideas of the objects for which the public money is to be
expended. But I want to know what precise conception
'we have of how these public funds going to Turkey are to
be expended ? We have not that information from Mini-
sters,,and we are, at the same time, sanctioning a system
which is vague in its character and indefinite in its amount,
and at a time when we have to consider the general finan-
. cial position of the country, incurring a liability which
renders all estimates impossible, anti all computation of
public expenditure of the most unsatisfactory and perplex-
ing character. Under these circumstances, I think it will
be well for the house not to sanction the resolution now
in the bands of the chairman. Let her Majesty's Mini-
sters have an opportunity of reconsidering the whole of
the question—let them wait until they place before us
a cleUrer idea of our financial position than we at
present possess,' and let the Ministry in the interval
devise some mode by which we may assist Turkey
in a manner, I think, much more efficient and
effective than sending English capital to that country,
instead of employing English capital by English means and
machinery for the object we have all of us at heart, namely,
the vigorous prosecution of the war in which we are en-
gaged, and establishing Turkey, as I hope to see it esta-
blished, a real and effective barrier against the aggression
of Russia- (Rear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS supported, though reluctantly,
the proposition of the Government.
Mr. LAING was unwilling .to embarrass the Adminis-
tration, but he was much opposed to the principles of a
guarantee.
Mr. COBDEN accepted the description of the noble lord
as a proof of what he hid aIL along said, that Turkey was
politically effete. She could not be trusted, it seemed,
with spending her own money, and therefore the Go-
vernments of England and France were going to spend
it for her. But he was anxious to know how that was
to be done. Were they to send agents to every regi-
ment, to see • that the soldiers were properly paid?
If they did not do that they did nothing, for it was well
lenewu that the colonel at the bead of every Turkish regi-
ment was the man who plundered the regiment. If money
was to he lent .o Turkey at all, any way would be better
than this way. They had much better make a present of
it to Tarkey altogether. He consi .erect the proceedings
of that night would b© a great triumph to the Russian
party everywhere. It was now admitted that Turkey was
not only a sick but a dying man, and the insult offered to
her, by this measure was greater than any offered by Prince
Menschikoff. His Opinion was, if they wanted to support
Turkey, they ought at once to put an end to the war, and
address themselves to the question of providing some effec-
tive internal government for Turkey.
Mr. WILKINSON could not take upon himself the re-
sponsibility of refusing this vote.
Mr. CARDWELL said the House of Commons had
already, for the. purposes of this war, sanctioned an
expenditure which, separated from the debt, tripled
the expenditure of 1851. It was their duty, the e.
fore, to pause now, and ask whether this new expenditure
was calculated to attain the end in view. His objections
to this resolution were three :—first, that they were about
to vote away the money of this country without having
over it any adequate control • his next objection was, that
it was a disguise and 'a deceplion'; his third objection was,
the political consequences the, loan might entail on us. On
these grounds he thought that every friend to a vigorous
prosecution of the War ought to vote against the resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ,T3BR, called the
teution ofth.) emiunittoo to tho corsi•AuuncrA that would
fall.o i* fpiro.a roj,cti,m of the vote. The gear:llAm) had
alrca&y,bseu atAoptt d Fioneh LL-,;idarturo. If the
House of Commons refused it, her Majesty must commu-
nicate to her ally the Emperor of the French that she is
unable to f%i,Wl her engagements, and that the consent of

the Frend, 11q,-il'ittire already obtained must be null and
voir, , ;ate fully aittniti”:l the light of the house to reject
the voce—he admitted that her Majesty's consent was only
conditional on this house giving its assent, but that would
be the position in which the house Would place her Ma-
jesty. He denied that the plans recommended by his op-
ponents possessed any advantages over that proposed by
the Government, and reminded the house that Ministers
were in fact precluded from taking any other course than
tin y did, as they had pledged themselves to contract no
further loan for England till the last instalMent of the last
was paid.
Mr. WALPOLE thought the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had risen to withdraw this resolution, and he regret.,
ted he had not done so. The arguments were unanswered,
and he believed unanswerable; and there was this remark-
able circumstance, that not a single independent member
had given an unqualified support to the Government pro-
position.
Lord PALMERSTON spoke again, and taunted the hon.
gentlemen who had made general warlike professions, and
even attacked the Government for insincerity with now
flinching from their own professions, and refusing this
comparatively small contribution for the vigorous prosecu-
tion of the war.
The committee then divided—
For the resolution
Against it
Majority for the resolution —3
This announcement was received with cheers and counter
cheers by the committee.
The resolution being thus carried, the house resumed.