The Sun.
London, England, 1855-08-08 00:00:00

qualities on the other. He regretted that viva voce
examination was not adopted, as it was calculated to elicit
the moral qualities. (Hear.) Ninety of the candidates
could write in Latin, 85 in Greek, 63 in French ; 53 were
examined in moral science, and upwards of 100 passed
creditably in English and English history. It was a very
pleasing subject to contemplate so large a number of young
men of talent taking such pains, and with such success, to
qualify themselves for the civil service of the country. Tt
was proposed to establish a new system of education in.
India, under a director of public instruction, with 14 di-
rectors under him, regulating the three presidencies. Lord
Dalhousie stated that this system was now in full opera-
tion. The right hou. gentleman then adverted to the navi-
gation of the Godavery, which ho said was of great import-
ance, and as to which the Government were making every
exertion ; and there would be every disposition to make
equal exertions in similar cases of other rivers. Having
now gone through all the various topics of finance and po-
litics, the right hon. gentleman raid ho should advert to the
petition from Madras, which adverted to the old disputed
question of the government of India. Into that great ques-
tion he could not then, however, enter. He was favour-
able to the principleof" doublegovernment;" and although
he had for many years devoted his attention to Indian affairs,
be fully felt the value of the co-opei ation of the Court of
Directors. Nor did he believe that any one occupying
his office would be likely to lean too much upon them, while
he would find their aid invaluable. No doubt there wore
anomalies and absurdities in the present system ; but these
were small objections to the system, and of no practical con-
sequence. On the other hand, great practical advantage re-
sulted from it. For instance, in the selection of a Governor
for India, how immense was the responsibility. It was one
of the most difficult selections to be made. An able man
might be selected, who yet might be intoxicated
with power, and commit extravagances. -In such a
selection it was important to have the sanction of such
a body as the Court of Directors. Under their auspices
the selection' of Lord Canning was, he believed; most for-
tunate. The power of the Governor-General was nearly
absolute ; but his noble friend was not a man to be led
away by it into any schemes of conquest. His noble friend
would rather endeavour to develops the resources of India,
and would recollect that the illustrious name he bore was
associated with rational liberty and with the principles and
institutions of a free people. (Cheers.)
A resolution having been proposed pro forma,
Mr. BRIGHT said, giving credit to the right hon. gen-
tleman for the desire to do good in his office (and he had
not been in it long enough to do harm), yet there was great
reason to complain that the subject should be brought for-
ward at such a period of the session when no one was pre-
sent. And if the right hon. gentleman was in office next
year (if it was not too muck to suppose, it), next to the
question of peace and war, there was no subject of such
importance as that of Indian finance. (Hear.) It was not
an Indian, but an English question. The late Sir R. Peel
had said most truly that any embarrassments in Indian
finance would tell upon English finance. And, in point of
fact, the debts of India were really the debts of this coun-
try. The statement of the right hon. gentleman was far
from favourable, and far more so than the facts warranted.
For he (Mr. Bright) believed that the future had in store
for us in Indian finance very great troubles. He disputed
the statements of the right bon. gentleman, and Eel:eyed
that Indian finance was extremely confused. In Oct.. 1853,
the cash balances had fallen from 17,000,000/. to 13,000,0001.
That was the time chosen for conversion of the Five per
Cent. Stock, 24,0'0 0001. in amount. In the year the
cash balances fell down to 7,500,000/. The Government,
finding themselves falling into the abpss of bankruptcy,
projected a new loan of 5 per cent., with a guarantee of
15 years. He suspected that dishonest means had been
resorted to in 1853 to keep up false balances, and bolster
up credit. In 1853 the enormous balances acted certainly
as a detention, and proved merely temporary. The
true question as to the conversion of stock, was as to
the value of money at the time. But it was believed in
India that the balances were actually lying idle and un-
appropriated, so that the effect of their being found miss-
ing would not be to diminish the resources of the Govern-
ment ; in short, that there was a large surplus revenue of
several millions.—(Mr. Mangles denied this.)—lf the hon.
member denied this, he could prove it from the pages of
the Friend of India, edited by Mr. Marshman. (Thehon.
member quoted from it the expression, "plethora of
riches," being_the most remarkable.) This was in May,
1853; and the impression evidently was that there was
plenty of money—" a balance of 16,003,000/. in the Trea-
sury" beim. distinctly stated. (Hear.) The false impression
s was most improperly created that the 16,000,0001. was a
disposable surplus. If the Government were parties to
it they were most blameable. He would ask the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control to observe that from June,
1853. to April, 1855, the balance in the Indian Exche-
quer had fallen not less than 10.000,000/. sterling. On
the 20th December. 18M, a letter was addressed to
the Government of India to the effect that in the
event of a loan being required for public works in India,
" our consent"--that was to say the consent of the Court of
Directors and the Board of Control—must first be obtained
thereto. But that regula'don had been set aside by Lord
Dalhousie. A loan had been since contracted without any
reference whatever to the Court of Directors and the Board
of Control, and on the announcement of that loan the
value of Indian Stock fell not less than 16 per cent. The
loan of which he spoke was called a public works loan, to
make it appear in this country as if it were to be devoted
to public works in India; but he was afraid that it was
not entitled to that name, for no facts whatever had been
adduced to justify its being so described ; and whereas the
statement made by Sir C. Wood, when President of the
Board of Control was, that the expenditure for public
works in India for the last five years amounted to
3,152,000/., according to Mr. Grant the expenditure was
upwards of 9,000,0001., being a difference between the
two statements of 6,000,000'. The fact was that the
construction of civil and military buildings had been
treated as public works, which was an utter absurdity, for
such works were.not public works in the proper accepta-
Men of the term. To call this loan a public works loan was
altogether a delusion ; and if the Government got a six-
pence of the money from anybody in India who fancied
that it was to be laid out upon reproductive objects, he
(Mr. Bright) begged to say that they would be obtaining
that sixpence under false pretences. The truth was that
we wanted a radical reform in the whole matter of Indian
finance; in the mode in which the accounts were kept, and
in the mode in which, and the time when, they were placed
before the house and the English public. If there was
one thing more than another which it was the interest of
the Government. to do, it was to have no secresy respect-
ing their finance. (Hear:) If the Government of India had
regard to its own interests alone it would abolish this sys-
tem of secrecy •, and the bringing up in 1855 estimates
of money which bad been spent in 1853. The hon.
eentletne.n read a letter signed by the chairman of the
Madras Chamber of Commerce. recommending regular
periodical publications of the publicaccounts of India, and
deprecating any secrecy upon so important a subject. He
asked why, with a revenue of 30,009,f.00/., they ought not
to have a Chancellor of the Exchequer for India instead of
the present system by which there was a kind of divided
authority between three or four individuals, whose state-
ments as to the accounts of India were better calculated to
mystify than to explain matters. He must urge the com-
mittee to accept the resolution which he had placed before
them. The right hon. gentleman uttered a fine panegyric
upon the new Governor-General of India. He (Mr. B.)
was not going to detract from the merits of Lord Can-
ning. He always judged the noble lord as being a man
full of good intentions, laborious, and generally well qua-
lified for the performance of the duties he undertakes. He
would, however, tell him that the question of the finances
of India was at the bottom of the prosperity of India. If
the country were governed by ordinary economy and
ordinary prudence there oneht to be a surplus revenue.
The fact, however, was, that at the present moment there
.was a heavy debt against India. He would advise Lord,
Canning to keep clear of getting into hostilities, and to'
avoid the example of Lord Dalhousie, who plunged the
country into a war upon the most flimsy and ridiculous
pretext. He did not want then to go into the opium or
the salt question; but he had ascertained from a gentleman
who had recently arrived in this country that the opium
trade bad occasioned the most fearful results in China. As
to salt, he said a taxation based upon a principle so econo-
mically wrong and bidennelycruel, must be bad, and ought
to be put an end to by the Government. In reference to the
cruelties practised in India, he appealed to the committee
whether the inquiry that had taken place had riot borne
out the statements which had been made as to the prac-
tice of the most frightful enormities in that quarter ;
although the hon. member for Honiton (Sir J W. Hogg)
and the member for Guildford (Hr. Mangles) hall endea-
'voured to cast ridicule upon his hon. friend the member for
Poole (Mr. D. Seypeour), when he rose in that house to
3 expose the system of cruelty and oppression. He was
anxious that England and Eegland's Parliament should
spread a brighter picture of India before the world than
they had as yet done. He believed that by a complete
change of system. India would attain a position of the
highest eminence and prosperity; and that the Govern-
ment that would carry out such a change would achieve
for themselves an imperishable renown. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. W. HOGG said the hon. member for anchester
never referred to Indian affairs that he did not attack, not
only the conduct, but also the motives of those who took
part in the Government of India. The hon. gentleman had
referred to his (Sir J. W. Hogg) holding office and reaping
large revenues from India; But he should say what he
made he made by his own industry and ability. He had
not a single friend when he landed on the banks of the
Ganges. Yet he worked his way with industry and perse-
verance ; and when he took office finally he took it for the
ease it afforded, though in doing so he sacrificed much of
his emolument. -(Hear, hear.) He admitted in the broadest
manner that cases of torture were to be found in India. In
Madras, with a population of 22,000,000, after the issue of
a proclamation by the government for information on the
subject, 384 applications were made of a personal character
and 425 of a written character—not 30 great a number after
all, considering a population-of 22,000,000. The finding of
the commission admitted that personal violence was prac-
tised by officials in the collection of revenue, and in police
cases; but it also added that they (the commissioners) were
bound to state their opinion that the practice had oflato years
been decreasing, as well in amount of suffering as in extent.
He would now approach the subject of finance relative to
which the hon. member for Manchester was somewhat more
tranquil. He (Sir J. Hogg) was certainly not as expert in
the arcane of figures as the hon. gentleman ; still he had
made no allegation against the Court of Directors which he
was not able to refute; though it must be acknowledged
it was rather difficult to follow the hon. gentleman through.
out his statement, for he kept quoting everywhere, right
and left, first from the hon. gentleman the President of the
Board of Control, and then from the Friend of India;
culling from each according as it suited his purpose. The
hon. gentleman commenced his statement relative to this
part of the subject by pointing to the largeness of the
balances retained in the Indian treasury, and to the ex-
treme variation which they underwent. Now he (Sir J.H.)
was sorry to be obliged to admit that to carry on the ma-
chinery of the government of India it was indispensable that
there should be, in the different treasuries spread through-
out India, balancesto the amount of between 9,000,030/. and
10,000,000/. sterling, which lie there, he readily alto ved,
perfectly unproductive. That necessity arose, in great mea-
sure, on account of the enormous payments that had to be
made, the difficulty of transport throughout such an im-
mense extent of territory, and from all the payments having
to be made in silver. He believed, however, that the day
was not far distant when the requisite balances would not
amount to more than 4,000,000/., and that would be when
India enjoyed the advantage of railway communica-
tion. A4ul the very necessity of maintaining such large
balances explained, in great measure, the fact of their so
greatly varying. And now for the matter of the loan,
which he certainly was prepared to slefond. The hon. gen-
tleman the President of the Board of Control had, however,
declared that night that it was not his duty to defend the
loan. Now, he (Sir J. Hogg) would tell him that it was
his duty to defend the Governor-General of India if he
was in the right, and it was his duty to denounce him if he
was in the wrong. Now, what was the state of the Four
per Cents, at the time of the loan ? At that time the Four 1

to the Five per Cent. lesan, he would say at once the real
question was, ought the Government to have foreseen the
causes which rendered it necessary to open such a loan?
Well, here were the circumstances under which it was
negotiated ? In the first place, it was discovered, after
an estimate duly sketched, that there would be a deficiency
fey the current year in the revenue over the expenditure
of nearly 2,000,0001. About fay 1, the balances through-
out India would be reduced to a sum of 8 000,0001., the
balances in the Calcutta Treasury being perfectly exhausted,
while at the same time the rate of money was so high
that the Bank of. Bengal was cliargiag 11 per
cent. upon the deposit of Government Securities. Then
the Russian war broke out, which had the effect here of
driving Consols down nearly 10 per cent, while this very
loan was at a discount of only 5 per cent. Again, tho hon.
gentleman was quite right in stating that theGsvernment of
India had become alarmed, and consequently deemed that
some precautions were necessary. Now, in the preced-
ing six weeks, the Home authorities had drawn upon
India bills to the amount of 2,000,0001. sterling. Well,
with bills drawn upon them to such an extent—with an
empty exchequer •at Calcutta with a deficiency of
7,000,0001. in the balances, and the rate of exchange
rising every day—in
,presence, also, of the fact that the
demand for public Works during the preceding years
exceeded the amount of the loan, while the demand far
this year was actually greater, there also came out to
India the despatch containing the order of July, 1854,
from the Court of Directors, that the Government was to
proceed with the public works, and was to meet the ex-
penditure out of the balances in hand. Well, under such
circumstances the Government of India felt that they
were necessitated to raise a loan at 5 per cent. without the
knowledge or approval of the Court of Directors. That
approval, however, had not since been withheld, and in-
stead of reprobating the governor and council, the Court
of Directors had commended them for what had been
done as being the best under the circumstances. The
hon. gentleman the member for Manchester had treated
in a most cavalier manner the statements of gentlemen of
the highest position, and connected with India. He had
spoken thus of Mr. James Bell, of Mr. Doran, who might
be said to have occupied the post of a Chancellor of the
Exchequer under Lord Ellenborough's administration ;
and of Mr. Peacock, a gentleman who formerly occupied
one of the most distinguished positions at the English bar.
The next question which the hon. gentleman touched upon
was the effect of our annexations upon the revenue. Now,
in 1852, the annexation of Pegu took place ; and for 1852-
53, the revenue was only 4,6581.; for 1853-54, it was
124,116'.; while for 1855 it was 216,7191. With respect to
the time of making the Indian financial statement in that
house, he could assure the hon. gentleman the member for
Manchester that he was as anxious as the hon. gentleman
himself that that statement should be made at an early
period of the session ; and he should add, that he was as
unable as the hon. gentleman to understand why a night
might not be devoted at the commencement of the session
to the consideration of that most important subject. He
pledged himself, that as far as he was concerned, he would
do everything in his power to have the Indian accounts
brought down to the latest possible moment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE said he believed that the
speech of the hon. baronet who had preceded him con-
sisted mainly of an attempt to mystify the house in respect
to as cruel a case of oppression as had ever been brought
under the notice of a deliberative assembly. Ho confessed,
that with regard to the question of the loan, it seemed to
him the hon. baronet had succeeded to a considerable ex-
tent in placing that matter on a more favourable footing
than that on which it had been left by the hon. member
for Manchester. But he contended that the statement of
the hon. baronet in reference to the tortures inflicted by
the police of India-on the unfortunate natives was utterly
unsatisfactory, and even inexcusable. The commissioners
themselves stated that, among the principal tortures re-
sorted to in those cases, were the following :—Twisting
ropes around the arms and legs, lifting up by the mous-
tachioe, searing with red-hot irons, placing insects on the
most sensitive paits of the body, beating with sticks, and
putting pepper in the eyes. These were facts reported by
the commissioners, and those were practises of which
the hon. baronet thought it sufficient to say that they
were exceptional cases. Why of course they were
,exceptional cases, and could only be exceptio-table in the
most barbarous and brutal country in the world ' • but that
was no answer to the charge that they were ever tolerated.
(The hon, and learned gentleman here read from the evi-
dence taken before the commissioners other passages, which
went to show that the utmost violence, fraud, and cruelty
were practised by the police in India.) Another subject to
which ho thought it his duty to advert was the continuaece
of the salt tax, which he could not help regarding as one
of the most impolitic and most odious of imposts. He
earnestly hoped that the right hon. gentleman the PI esi-
'dent of the Board of Control would take the necessary
steps for insuring at the earliest possible moment the aboli-
tion of that tax. He believed also that a reform in the
judicial tribunals of India was imperatively demanded.
The union of the offices of judge and of revenue collector
in the same person was a source of the grossest abuses, and
necessarily led to the habit of entrusting to the 'most
incapable hands the discharge of the most difficult and im-
portant duties. Allusion had been made in the course
of that discussion to the embarassad condition of the In-
dian finance; and upon that subject ho should observe
that it appeared to him the embarassment in question
must be owing in some measure to the number of officials
in our Indian possessions who received extravagantly largo
salaries. He thought that we were deeply culpable its re-
garded much of our past conduct in India, but ,he was
willing to hope, from the speech of the right hon. gentle-
man that evening, that we were at length about to begin
to discharge the long arrears which had accumulated
against us in that unhappy country.
Mr. OTWAY said he feared that a desire for the an-
nexation of new territories had of late years been increas-
ing among the members of the Government of India.
He believed it would be found that under the adminis-
tration of Lord Dalhousie more territory had been an-
nexed to our Indian empire than by some five or six of
the Governors-General who had preceded him. There
was one remark in the speech of tli right honourable
gentleman the President of the Board of Con-
trol which he considered as a most ominous one, because it
led him to apprehend that the Governor General had al-
ready cast his eye on the territory of The King of Oude,
with a view to its annexation. He earnestly trusted, how-
ever, that the right hon. gentleman would give the noble
lord to understand that such a measure, which was opposed
to 'the policy recommended by our greatest Indian states-
men, would not meet with his approbation. On the subject
of Indian finance generally, and more especially in refer-
ence to the outlay on public works, he found it very dif-
ficult, if not impossible, to arrive at any definite conclu-
sion. He understood that the difference between the
sum stated by the right. honourable baronet the present
First Lord of the Admiralty and that stated by Mr.
Grant to have been expended on public works in India
amounted to not less than 6,000,0001. Ho not only ob-
jected to the amount expended upon public works, but
to the manner in which it had been laid out. The pub-
lic roads made were very few, and the number of rail-
roads much smaller than they ought to be. The works
chosen to be carried out were badly chosen, and there had
been especial neglect in the development of water commu-
nication in India. The hon. gentleman the member for
Hoditon said that the number of letters in answer to the
notification of the commissioners was very few, and that
there had been no complaints with regard to the conduct of
Europeans; whereas the commissioners reported that in the
space of three months there had been 959 complaints. The
hen; member for Roxburghshire said that the thumb-screw
was not used in India ; but there was a mass of testimony
to show that the police used that engine of torture to a
large extent to extort confessions, and a number of mis-
sionaries testified to the employment of that torture to
compel the ryots to pay their taxes. It was proved beyond
doubt that this horrible torture had been resorted to, and
with the cognisance of the European authorities; and he
trusted that it would not again be attempted to contra-
dict such testimony. In the Madras presidency the prac-
tice was universal, but it was not confined to that part of
India. In BOmbay a gross case of torture had occurred,
mating in the death—he might say the murder—of an
iridividual ; and' in this case the European officer had not
shos‘vn that vigilance he ought to have done. He believed
if the noble lord the present Governor-General of India
only acted up to the spirit of his sneech. he might render
illustrious in India a name beloved in Europe as was that
of his great father.
Mr. HENLEY said the thanks of the country were dee
to the hon. member for Poole for bringing the subject of
torture so distinctly before Parliament. Another mat ter
had, come most painfully out in the course of the inquiry
—namely, that persons in office in India had no know-
ledge of what was clone by persons in their ewn employ-
ment. It was extremely painful to find these matters,,
which had been stated in the report, treated so lightly as
they had been by the honourable baronet the member for
Honiton. The hon. baronet seemed to wish the house
to believe that the merchants and commissioners knew '
nothing of the matter. But this forced the fact on the
house that the Government was culpably ignorant. The
hon. baronet argued that the surgeons of the gaols know
nothingof those cruelties, and that, therefore, there could
have been no serious Wounds, but this only proved that the
Europeans were not awareof what was going on around them.
The facts were, however, now known • public opinion was
brought to bear on the subject, and doubtless they would
be put down. But he (Mr. Henley) thought the governing
body of that countrycould not be exempt from blame when
such practices existed without being known, or if they were
known, permitted by the government.
Sir C. WOOD said that now tne fullest information of
the factsin question was obtained, the government of India
would lose no time in putting an end to such a disgraceful
state of things as had been disclosed by the exertions of the
hon. member for Poole. With respect .to the statements of
the hon. member for Manchester, it was obvious that they
referred to another period as regarded the actual expendi-
ture on civil works. He (Sir C. Wood) stated the average
expenditure on civil new works in 1852 at 700,0001. Mr.
Grant's statement of expenditure, viz., 1,600,0001. in 18'4,
offered no discrepancy as to the facts.
Mr. BRIGHT said the figures might be made to agree,
but it would be by including things which were not strictly
public works.
Sir C. WOOD said the discrepancy was none, because
for Mr. Grant's purpose all money for repairs, as well as
for now works, was included. The hon. gentleman said
the statement of Indian finance on the subject of the loan
made by him (Sir C. Wood) was intended to deceive the
house. There was no use in talking of the balances, as they
varied. That in April, 1853, was 15,500.000/. This gave
about 5,500,0001. available for any purpose to which it was
requisite to be applied. For four years there had been an
annual increasing surplus. For that the Four per Cont.
Loan was kept open, and it being obvious that the Fiveper
Cent. Loan was unnecessary, it was the duty of the Govern.
ment to reduce the 5 per cent, to 4, as it 'would be
unjust to call upon the people of India to pay the difference.
After this operation had been effected a change of circum-
stances took place, rendering it necessary to raise a Five
per cent. Loan for the purposes of the country. The first
circumstance he gave his attention to when he accepted
the post of President of the Board of Control was to endea-
vour to establish friendly relations with the western fron-
tier of our Indian dominions. He could not too highly
praise the conduct- of Lord Dalhousie in the war which had
been, as it were, forced upon him. That noble lord had
acted with so much judgment that he was enabled to put
an end to wars, to obtain large acquisitions of territory,
and to lay the foundation of amicable relations with other
powers. The successor was well selected, and he augured
the best for the appointment.
Mr. WHITESIDE referred to the complaints against the
civil tribunals, and he thought it was the duty of the autho-
rities to look well to that 'matter. He must refer to one
circumstance connected with the government of India—
namely, that though Scotchmen were constantly appointed
tp high judicial situations in India, no instance was on
record of an Irishman being selected.
Sir C. WOOD said the Crown made the appointments.
Mr. WHITESIDE—Then the Crown bad acted in an
illiberal and an unjust manner towards Irishmen.
Mr, MANGLES adhered to his statement that torture