The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-16 00:00:00

CHURCH RATES.

Lord R. GROSVENOR presented a petition from
All Saints, Poplar, complaining of church rates, that if
the church rate is not sufficient to pay the ministers
stipend the church, however, is liable for it, and praying
that some clause might be inserted in the bill now before
the house on church rates, that may take away the lia-
bility of the churchwardens.
Sir J. SHELLEY presented several petitions from
Westminster for the abolition of church rates.
EDUCATION OF PAUPER CHILDREN.

On the motion of Mr. E. DENISON, this bill was
read a second time.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.

their having a feeling of pride in being connected with
the building of some great monument in the country,
•,..,ist there was Lone in keeping it in repair afterwards.
(Hear.) Having made it necessary that the clergy of
the Established Church should be an educated body of
men it was also necessary the people should contribute
towards providing proper fabrics wherein their ministra-
tions might be heard. (Hear.) They had given their
sanction to one, but by the bill before the house would
refuse their sanction to the other, so that the temples in
whiah they performed those duties would go to ruin. An
objection had been raised to the continuance of church-
rates, that it was not fair to call on persons who never
went inside a church to pay towards its support. If that
was to be a criterion for the nonpayment of money, he
should be glad to know why persons should be called
on pay highway rates and county rates for the keeping
in repair of parish roads and county bridges who used
neither the one nor the other. There had been lstely
much agitation created out of doors on this subject, but
the petitions presented to the house had not been so
numerous as probably hon. members imagined, for he
found that up to the 9th of this month there had only
been 1,128 petitions, containing 59,238 signatures, which
was but a small number in comparison with the popula-
tion of the country, which amounted to 18,000,000, and
could not be taken as a criterion of the general feeling of
the country, and he for one did not regard the
number of petitions presented as of very great weight
with reference to the feeling of the country. The case
was very different with reference to the, Sunday Beer
Bill, for on that question the number of signatures
amounted to 225,000, the one giving the feeling of the
people in comparison strongly, whilst the other was weak.
A Royal Commission had sat on this question, but they
recommended not the abolition of church rates, but their
being put on the same footing as the poor rates ; and in
1851 he found the house granted a commission of inquiry
on the subject, which was presided over by Mr. Tre-
lawney, and on which was the hon. member for Man-
chester, and a number of the Society of Friends (the
late member for Leicester), and who, after hear-
ing evidence from all parts of the country,
did not recommend a measure similar to
that of the hon. baronet's, but compromised the matter
by making no report at all. (Hear.) The hon. gentle-
man said he had to make the same complaint at that
stage of his address the hon. baronet had made—that
there was not one Cabinet Minister in the house—(bear)
—and he could not refrain from remarking, that on a
question of that nature, upon which the maintenance
of Church and State was based, the house ought to have
their opinion whether they would say aye or no to the
measure. (Hear, bear.) The hon. gentleman then
stated the outline of a bill be intended to have brought
in, until be heard that the Archbishop of Canter-
bury had given notice of a bill in the other

house, and he remarked, in continuation, that he could
not abandon the principle that every person in this coun-
try was bound to assist in keeping the Church of England
in repair. (Hear.) They appeared to be arguing the
question, not as if they belonged to our country, but as
if from their belonging to different denominations they
were of different nations. The Church of England was
not the Church of a party, but the Church of the
country, and he did not consider the Church could be in
better hands than that of the bishops, and, as a layman,
he had no wish to take the cause out of their hands.
The 4th and sth sections of the present bill would have
the effect of causing Dissenters to pay church rates in
the shape of pew rents, the churchwardens having
power by those clauses of apportioning seats to whom
they thought proper, and of proceeding against them
for the recovery of the rents. The hon. gentleman then
took a review of the different petitions that had been
presented on this subject, and drew from them generally
the inference that they were adverse to the bill of the
hon. bart., and in favour of the measure that had lately
been introduced in another place by the Archbishop of
Canterbury. If the bill of the hon. bart. passed he be-
lieved the best day of England would have passed
away, and her name as a religious nation would be
among the things that were forgotten. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman sat down by proposing his amend-
ment.

Mr. L. DAYIS seconded the amendment. No less
than 857 of all the parishes in the kingdom had given in
their adhesion to the Church of England, and against
the bill of the hon. baronet. (Hear, hear.) He believed
if the bill of the hon. baronet passed, it would make the
members of the Church of England feel the same senti-
ments of dislike to the Dissenters that it was said the
Dissenters at present felt to them. (Hear, hear.) He
thought, before the hoc. baronet attempted to put an
end to the machinery on this subject at present exist-
ing, he had better study the sentiments supposed to
have been expressed by Mrs. Glass—namely, first to
catch your hare, and then to cook it (laughter)
because he firmly believed the whole tenour of the
honourable baronet's bill was founded in pure de-
lusion, and never could be carried into effect. (Hear.)
But should its enactments be carried into effect—which
God forbid—that Church which they had been in the
habit of entering with reverence would become a ruin,
because it would be found impossible to relieve it from
the disgrace caused by this measure, or raise the neces-
sary funds for its future support. (Hear.) He objected
to the mode of worship both by Christians and Catholics
being brought into this question, as it had been by the
hon. baronet. Another objection he had to the hon.
baronet's bill was that, instead of its giving increased
accommodation in churches to the poor, it would limit
that accommodation. (Hear.) He thought that, know-
ing the diversity of feeling that existed upon this subject
throughout the country, the Ministers of the Crown ought
to have come forward and brought in a public measure
on the subject. (Hear.) He would venture to sty
that if that course had been adopted by the Government
under the direction of the noble viscount at the head of
affairs, he would have secured for himself a reputation
that would not easily have been tarnished or passed
away. (Hear, bear.) The principal parties interested
in the bill of the hon. baronet were the landed proprie-
tors, because, should this measure pass, the result would
be that they would one and all raise their rents. In
conclusion, he deprecated this species of legislation, be-
cause it was calculated for a time to unsettle in-
stitutions that had existed for ages ; but that
it could ever be permanent he had great doubt. (Hear.)
The hon. member looked with great satisfaction upon the
amendment of his hon. friend, and most col dial lyseconded
it.

Sir W. CLAY rose to move the second reading of
the above bill. He was relieved from going fully into
details on this subject, partly from the frequent discus-
sions it had undergone, and partly from the universal
conviction now prevailing in the public mind that some
rates (Hear.)
e(wHaesar.) neceTsshaerybiiinl
htheehpardesneonwt condition
honour
rf
to church
sub-
mit to the house for a second reading, provided, first,
for the entire abolition of church rates. Secondly, it
continued church rates for a time, inasmuch as it was
necessaryfaithh
u foer
er
ht
rhat
el isq
ou
ni d
taht ieo na
notfh
odrei
tbyt
ocontracted
ao
ent thes of
Parliament. Thirdly, it provided that to the church-
wardens shall be confided, as heretofore, the entire
charge of providing for the repairs and maintenance of
the fabric, and defraying the charges incident to the per-
formance of divine service. He felt it his duty to make
one incidental remark on the absence of any one member
of her Majesty's Government at the discussion of such
an important bill. (Hear, hear.) He had the impres-
sion that the assent of the Government, as a Govern-
ment, depended upon a satisfactory explanation of its
cp raobvi
Ili sei oot nnwss ,eoraien
his
ireietsbewinl al
t.s. nT(oftbi
eehaierse,
cf au
ho
ne
aldtr
.pi)f r
onovT i
somi
erenem:
ebareetr
ltoi
oef theht
ande
provisi
stated, would retain the churchwardens, and he had a
twofold motive for retaining them. In the first place,
he thought it most important to make as little change
as possible in our existing laws and institutions, more
iens
tpeercei
sa
tl
sl y
or whtheen h those
ac
ihi
da n
tgeees a l i
ngffse co affectedthe
et hpee
oppelcoe. n i asrey.
condly, the proceedings of churchwardens were guided
by a long series of legal decisions, therefore there would
their functions.
nevediffi
difficulty
He
had another in the way of tmheoirtivaedmfoinristering
this.
Churchwardens were among our oldest parochial and
municipal officers ; they were really the ecclesiastical re-
presentatives of the parishes ; and it was their duty to
look after any irregularity on the part of the incumbent,
and to see that divine service was duly performed. He
had next to allude to the provisions of the
bill which affected the appointment of auditors. He
would leave the appointment of auditors to the vestry
for two reasons—first, because there might not be a suf-
ficient number of subscribers resident in the parish, and,
in the next place, he wished to have the wholesome
control of popular feeling over the expenditure of large
sums of the people's money for what might be perhaps
fantastic purposes. He did not propose to take funds
from the capitular estates for the repairs of churches;
he thought there was a growing disposition to
a better management of the church estates, and
he thought, therefore, that a portion of the surplus
funds might be safely applied to this purpose, on the
grounds that it would be prejudicial to the voluntary
principle, and also because it would require too compli-
cated a machinery for any private momber to introduce.
(Hear.) The members of the Church were in the aggre-
gate the richest portion of the country : did they mean
to tell the world they would not pay for the support of
that Church except upon compulsion ? (Hear, hear.)
He would only refer to the returns of the Re-
gistrar-General, by which it appeared that, in the
last half century more churches were built then
in the previous 500 years—namely, between 2,000 and
3,000. In the first 30 years of the half century 500
churches were built, which cost 3, , O
p oeor n
,ocoeo/t. from.;o indivi-
duals. f that
iv.sumi
1,150,000/. were suppliediastfro2mo
ypeaurbslitcherfeunhdasd,
baenend
1,850,000/. from private sources, orthieneoretheetion of
rwordwhis,36s
ti iol en r
oul
than
large
r hgte
t o towns
that,
that
h a v just
of
e been where
supporters
elpraschurch
undermining
r dtiofo l i rt Church a a
this
rates s
abolishing
measure
church weremost re
tat
ands ur
rc destroying
other
religions
h r there i were
dpr
more
orarl
es cent.th a Ti from
2 ,o 0 (Hear.)
othe
Fh state,uorrcthhees built, and 65
public funds contributed 500,000/., and private funds
5,570,000!. (hear, hear) or, in other words,
public funds contributed 8A per cent and
private funds 91i per cent. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
ra rates
s we
baronet then referred to the cases of Liverpool and
o th
some
celai country,
church
that
hatt
bill -
gsisted, to show the great efforts made by the voluntaries
to build and endow churches, and he believed it was
undeniable
Church dbl any particular
was best maintained. (Hear, hear.) The
the heabolis
hon. baronet concluded by moving the second reading
of the bill.
Mr. PACKE moved that the bill be read a second
time that day six months. In doing so, the hon, mem-
ber said, that, with all the respect he felt for those who
conscientiously differed from the Church of England, he
s. By e
this ligio
bill
a
n s
could not consider that body as a mere sect in compari-
son with the other religious denominations. (Hear.)
scot
altogether, Before
a bill
o or to give
s brought
e in
preference to
they were taking away one of those props by which the
(Hear.)
National Church was supported, and doing secretly
rates,
what
they would n
contri-
butions hadCthheuErch mightstablisliedbeCkhueprcthin repair by country.
the ry.
voluntary
ofth i
been stateidhoytdo openly,
thep inn proportion
Establishedo
the .the
of those who attend it ; and it was further urged
in proof of it the manner in which individuals came for-
ward and gave their money towards the erection of these
edifices, and it was no doubt
a praiseworthy object
in such individuals thus doing .so—(h r h but he thought they would . _ ear h
ear)—
not find persons to
II come forward so readily with their money, to repair
these edifices se they did to build them, for the reason of

---
Mr. COWPER said he did not agree with his hon.
friend (Mr. Davis) who had just sat down when he said
that he considered church rates the essential foundation
of the national church, and that before they were re-
pealed it would be expedient and proper to begin by abo-
lishing the national church. On the contrary, he (Mr.
Cowper) thought that the present state of the law of
church rates, instead of being a fundamental advantage,
was a great disadvantage to the church, because it was a
state of things which almost invited in every parish
where any difference of opinion existed contests and
strife—a state of things which induced enmity and hos-
tility towards the establishment on account of its own ope-
rations, and could not therefore be regarded otherwise
than as an evil. At the same time it was not at all proper
that a state of the law should exist in connection with
the Church which could not be enforced, and which had
now been clearly held to be without due and proper
means of enforcement. But whilst he thought it would
be desirable and conducive to the interest of the Church
that such a change in the law as would bring it into
accordance with the alteration of circumstances which
had arisen since that law was made, he believed that
since the memory of man it had been an obligation on
the parishioners to maintainEand repair the fabrics of the
Church. In early times, when parishioners were accus-
tomed to frequent their Church, nothing could be more
rational—but the change which had occurred since
that day, and the indifference which was mani-
fested towards the parish churches had rendered
some modification desirable, as many of the parishes
formed at that period in the districts so divided con-
sisted of parts of the country so thinly populated that
the parishes so parcelled out were very large. Since
then, increase of population had brought with it an in-
crease of parishes, whilst the powers of extending
churches had not been carried on by a fresh division and
subdivision of parishes, but by building district churches
within the mother parishes, such as were separate, eccle-
siastically speaking,. but nevertheless remained a portion
of the original parish. Those people who attended the
new churches in these parishes, objected, of course, to pay-
ing towards those old churches in addition to what they
subscribed to their own places of worship. So that the
obligation to support the parish church, which was so
natural and obvious when first established, had become
unnatural and inconvenient, and by no means in con-
sonance with the feelings of the public. (Hear, hear.)
He thought, therefore, if a measure was proposed which
would still impose the obligation on those who fre-
quented parish churches to support those churches
alone, and at the same tine would render it compulsory
on others to support the churches they attended the ob-
jection would cease. But the question was one con-
fessedly of very great difficulty, and involved many
complications, and be thought that his honourable
friend deserved much credit for grappling with that
difficulty. But he had been singularly unsuccessful,
and had not yet solved the question. On the contrary,
he had rather increased the difficulty, and he (Mr. Cow-
per) thought the measure proposed would have to be
added to the number of those abortive measures which his
hon. friend recapitulated with so much satisfaction in the
course of his speech. (Laughter.) If, on the other
hand, the house was disposed to adopt the measure by
which church rates would be abolished, and their payment
left to voluntary contributions, some machinery ought to
be provided which would have enabled congregations to
possess some legal means of ascertaining how the money
they so contributed was disposed of. In this respect he
thought the bill before the house entirely failed. His
hon. friend had proposed that the churchwardens should
be the persons who should administer these funds—but
he appeared to have forgotten that these officers were
not elected by the congregations exclusively. To render
the measure successful the congregations ought to have
the power of nominating and electing those entrusted with
the disposal of the contributions. Having said a few
words in opposition to the operation of pew rents as pro-
posed in rural parishes, and the unjust burden it would
impose upon the poorer class of the co n munity,
right hon. gentleman went on to recommend thatlr thetfloire
people should wait until they saw their way 1
legislation. A number of schemes bad bele_npropeoesed for
removing the
altering the present state of the law, d
objections' of Dissenters, as well as raenderihnegrsietlf,mio,nret
cone ucive to the interests of the Churche
(as the hon. member said) without effeHeivelsyhernerdedynientg,
the difficulty so strongly felt..
tial measure intro-
therefore, like to see a p
duced which should relieve the
re t
Dissenters
increase
ntersand not
the Church, as this would only striofet
and animosity. He thought bef
oreany v
measure was forced
upon the house that some understandingHe seheonusliddebreedcotmhee
to mutually between both parties.
measure proposed by the hon. baronet would not attain
the objects he had in view, and be the means of settling
4 any future disputes, and therefore

house not to adopt it. He was not prepared to vote for I COUNTY AND CORPORATE ACCOUNTS,
the second reading of the bill, although be was prepared IRELAND.
agree t.I the that of the rieeeity of 04 Cie mot:on of &I'll. FERGUSON
re-
in;; , the following re-
the present mode of levying church rates, and trust- turns were agreed to :—Return from the treasurer of
ing more than they now did to the voluntary principle, - :h

each county, County of a city, and county of a town in.
Ireland, showing the receipts and payments on be-
half of each county in the year 1854 ; showing
the receipts—lst. The balance, if any, on hand in
county bank or exchequer bills on the Ist day of
January 1854 ; 2d. Amount received . from county
Cess ; 3d. Amount received from all other sources ;
and, 4th, Balance, if any, due County Bank or Trea-
surer on the 31st day of December,- 1854 ;—and Pay-
ments-Ist. Balance, if any, due County Bank or
Treasurer on the Ist day of January, 1854 ; 2d.
Amount of all sums paid ; and, 3d, Balance, if any, in
County Bank or Exchequer Bills on the 31st day of
December, 1854 ; together with a statement of-
-Ist. The assets above liabilities ; and, 2d. The County
cess due and uncollected on the 31st day of December,
1854 ; but not including therein any sum ordered to be
levied at the Summer Assizes preceding, or the second
half of the sum ordered to be levied off the county of
Dublin in the spring preceding. Return from each
Corporation, Town Council, Town or Water Commis-
sioners, or other public body, baying a right to levy rate
off the inhabitants of towns in Ireland, being a statement
of the receipts and payments of each in 1854, showing the
;in2dtr.eaAsnauroenenstlaraenodesivoodn
the
e iipstts
day— l s to.
of
Balance,ja nuary,if
laBnsy4,
from rents ; 3d. Amount received from tolls, assess!
ments, or rates 4th. Amount of money borrowed ;
sth. Receipts from all other sources ; and 6th. Balance,
if any, due to the treasurer on the 31st day
to the
ayofDetcr.e,aslBnsr44e
and payments ; Ist. Balance, if any, due
on the Ist day of January 1854 • 2d. Lighting, watch-
ing, and cleansing expenses ; id. Repairs ; 4th. Im-
provements ; sth. Salaries ; 6th. Law charges ; 7th.
Interest on debts ; Bth. Annuities ; 9th. Debts paid
off ; 10th. Incidental expenses ; and, 11th. Balance, if
any, in Treasurer's hands on the 31st day of Dec., 1854;
also the amount of debt due by each such body on
the Ist day of January, 1854, and the 31st day of
December, 1854, in classes, distinguishing —lst.
The bonded debt ; 2d. The amount due to contractors ;
3d. To bank; 4th. To other parties ; sth. To treasurer;
with the rate of interest on each class of debt, and
the increase or decrease of the debt during the year :
And similar return from each port, harbour, or dock
commissioners, or other similar body having power to
levy tonnage or goods rates in any port in Ireland.
VICTORIA STREET SEWER.
retuOn
rn the motion of Sir J. SHELLEY, the following
was agreed to :—" Return of the total expendi-
ture relating to the Victoria-street sewer, stating the
amount of the original contracts, the expense incurred
in repairs, the expense of survey, and all extras in-
curred in relation to the said sewer, vin
the names of the various g
surveyors employed,
the items paid in compensation, with the names of the
individuals to whom compensation has been paid for
damage done in the construction and repair of the said
sewer; together with an account of all moneys, and how
raised, towards the expenditure of the said sewer ; to-
gether with the names of the members of the commis-
sion of sewers under whose orders the Victoria-street
sewer was commenced.
CANDIA TRANSPORT.
Mr. BENTINCE moved for a copy of the report of
the survey held at Woolwich on the Candia (iron)
transport, and that of the pilot who took her out.
Agreed to.
The house then adjourned shortly before 6 o'clock.

Mr. LUSHINGTON said he was glad to find some
of the Government did not intend to admit the principle
of the bill. The hon. member referred to the antiquity
of this rate, in the course of which he said it was to be
regretted that, when the non-conforming community
were first recognised, this question•was not then settled,
and adverted to the various measures introduced into
the house of late years with a view to its final settlement.
It was to be regretted, he said, Ministers had not brought
in a bill on this question, because it was not likely
to be settled if left in the hands of private
members. Having beard a bill had been introduced into
the other house, he (Mr. Lushington) thought the house
might well pause before they came to a decision on the
merits of this question, and see whether or not thereby
they might not have an opportunity during the present
session of arriving at a conclusion on it. (Hear.) He
admitted the question had been a most fruitful source of
heartburnings and discord, and it behoved them to look
well to it, and come to some conclusion on it before long.
He thought the present measure objectionable,
b not
but th only had the church a legal right,
caul
em e poor also and in abolishing
them they committed an injustice also on the
poor,*
because they should recollect that by the law of theland
these churches were to be open free to the poor: (Hear.)
In the meeting-houses of the Dissenters no accom-
modation was made for the poor—(hear)—they being on
the system of proprietary chapels, all who attended
*hem had to pay for their sittings. (Hear.) And that
was the system they now proposed to carry into the
Church of England.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he was surprised to find
the hon. member for Hertford state to the house it was
his intention to vote against the bill, because
he did not approve of its machinery, whilst he
did of its principle. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought
the best course the house could adopt would
be to go into committee on the bill, where they would
be prepared to listen to any objections, and make such
alterations as were necessary. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the house would see the time was come, for the sake of
peace amongst all classes, but more especially for the
interest of the Church of England, that the subject
should be dealt with satisfactorily. (Hear, hear.) He
hoped they would declare by a majority that this ques-
tion should not be trifled with any longer, but be dealt
with in a practical manner, which would be the means
of doing more than anything else towards facilitating
its settlement. The hon. gentleman denied that this
was a Dissenters' question, but that of a Churchman's,
and was satisfied the voluntary system would be found
to answer every purpose.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he fully concurred
with those who had expresied their opinions that it was
most desirable the question should be settled, but it was
one thing to express a feeling or wish that a great ques-
tion should be settled, and another either to form in one's
own mind the mode by which a satisfactory settlement
could be obtained, or to adopt at once any proposal pro-
fessing to settle the question. The statements made by
hon. members, both in favour and against the bill, showed
that this was a question surrounded with great difficulties,
and that various attempts had been made for many years
by individual members of the house and Government to
settle it in a manner satisfactory to all parties concerned.
They had been reminded that these various attempts had
more or less failed, and that it was on that ground that
the hon. baronet the member for the Tower Hamlets
proposed the present measure. As a member of the
Government, he (Lord Palmerston) could not think he
would be performing his duty if he were to go headlong
in support of a particular mode of arriving at a given ob-
ject unless his mind was satisfied it would accomplish
the purpose for which it was intended, either by the pro-
bability of its passing into a law, and the likelihood if it
did that it would accomplish the healing process it was
intended to perform. Looking at the present bill, he
must say he could not see in it either of these two fea-
tures. When talking of measures which deeply affected
the great interests, and he might almost say the universal
feeling, of the country, they must consider whether the
measure brought under discussion was likely to pass into
a law, and doing that he did not think the measure now
proposed was one likely to receive the sanction of both
houses, neither did he think it contained within itself
those arrangements for providing for the support of the
fabrics of the Church which would be sufficient for their
maintenance in a proper manner. It had been asserted
in the course of the debate that the religious feeling of
the country might be relied on for the due support of
the fabrics of the Church. That it would be so in many
parishes he (Lord Palmerston) had no doubt, but he
was also apprehensive that in many parishes it would
not be the case. He could not altogether consider
that these ancient fabrics which were portions of the na-
tional property, and had existed for centuries, could be
placed in the same category with those places of reli-
gious worship which had sprung up in more recent
times, and from the manner of their construction not
only less expensive in their erection, but also more
easily and cheaply kept in efficient repair, that it would
be for the credit and honour of the country any more
than for the advantage of religion that these fabrics
should be allowed to go into decay. The ques-
tion resolved itself into two heads between which
there was a marked distinction. Church rates
were applicable to two purposes, one portion to be ap-
plied to the ministration of worship, and the other to the
maintenance of the fabric, and he thought one of the
defects of the present bill, and the many plans that had
been suggested was, the not keeping a sufficient distinc-
tion between the two. He could quite understand, and
make allowance for that religious feeling which rendered
persons not belonging to the Church averse from con-
scientious feelings, to contribute to the ministration of
a worship of which they did not partake. He thought
that feeling ono requiring no explanation, and for
which it would not be difficult to make a pro-
vision that should relieve them from that necessity. i
He thought there was much force in the argument that'
these churches were national property, and viewing them
as national fabrics for the worship of God, he thought
they ought to be maintained. (Hear.) At the same
time, if it was possible to devise a scheme to provide for
the churches of the country, and not offer violence to
those who differed from the Church, he for one should
not object to the introduction of such a measure. As 1
for the present measure, considering it did not I
provide sufficiently for the purpose chalked out, 1
he could not give it his support. (Hear.) It was 1
said the Government ought to introduce some measure
upon the subject. His reply to thatwas that Government
in former years had undertaken that task, but their pro-
posals had failed to obtain the assent of Parliament or
the great body of men who felt an interest in them.
(Hear, hear.) He would say further that, upon the sub-
ject the Government had no proposals to make that
would add any effect to the measure of the hon. baronet
the member for the Tower Hamlets. Indeed he could
not even propose a measure as a substitute for it,
and such being the case, he was bound most
reluctantly, as far as he was personally concerned, to
say he could not support the bill, but must give it his
opposition, thinking that-persons in his position ought
not to give support to any measure unless they were
clearly convinced that it was beneficial to the interests
of the community at large.
Mr. B ALL rose amid loud cries of divide—He was
sorry to hear from the noble lord at the head of the
Government that they had no measure to bring forward
on the subject. He thought, considering the debt the
Church owed the Dissenters, they ought to be met in a
fair spirit, which the course now proposed to be pursued
was totally at variance with. He did not support the
bill because he thought it would be detrimental to the
Church, but because he felt convinced it would benefit it.
Lord SEYMOU R would net have addressed the house
but for the statements made by the noble lord at the
head of the Government. That speech, instead of ad-
vancing this question, was calculated to throw it back
for years. (Hear.) Last year the noble lord at the head
of the Colonial Department had stated that the Govern-
ment proposed to settle this question, but the noble lord
at the head of the Government had stated that day that
the present Government had no such intentions—(hear,
hear)—and that the question must now be considered as
an open one, all the members of the Government
acting as they pleased. (Hear, hear.) All that might
be very well, but it must not be forgotten
that on the hustings the members of the Government
had advocated such measures as the present for the sake
of popularity, but within the house they had done all in
their power to defeat them. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that some member of the Government ought to state to
the house what the real object and intention of the Go-
vernment were in a far more clear and defined way than
had been adopted by the noble viscount.
The house then divided when the numbers were :
Ayes 217
Noes lB9
Majority in favour of the bill --28
This announcement was greeted with loud cheering.
The bill was accordingly read a second time.
CARLISLE CANONRIES BILL.
Mr. FERGUSSON moved the second reading of this
bill, and in doing so briefly explained the sources from
which the income of these canonries were derived. He
stated that these were from incumbents who were enti-
tled to a due and fair share in this property, and con-
tended that the Dean and Chapter who were only
e
stewards of that property, had no right to appropriate
that to themselves which was left for their advantageror
and the benefit of others. He proposed, therefore, to
suspend one of the canonries, and divide the pro
amongst the four incumbents. r
veryeg
g Mr. COWPER hoped his hon. friend
bill, as would
his motion for the second reading of the
subject had been by the order of the houwhseich committewas now
not
this P
to the consideration of a commission,
sitting,
,
sitting, and no doubt in its report that commission
would point out some mode of dealing with the subject
raised by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. R. PI{ILLIMORE n
considered it would be an act
c
bi this
r b i
hadll w ist tirtendt
lie was opposed to all
of rashness in the house toAdonec decide on
metmh
hearing further evidence.
C
anous. That was not his feeling.
He was opposed to idiecanonries and pluralist canonries, i
but not those who attended to the ministration of their
office, and assisted in the education of the poor.
Mr. T. CHAMBERS denied that this bill was an at-
tack on cathedrals generally, and contended the mode of
dealing with Carlisle was a fair one.
Mr. MOWBRAY opposed the bill, and defended the
Dean and Chapter of Carlisle from the imputations that
had been cast on them of not attending to the spiritual
wants of the people.
Mr. FERGUSSON supported' the bill, amidst cries
of " Divide."

THE FALL OF THE ATLAS IRON-WORKS.

ADDITIONAL PARTIOULARS.—CAUSE OF
THE ACCIDENT.
Yesterday morning, at an early hour, Mr. Polgase, the
proprietor of the Atlas Iron-works and Government
shell manufacturer, whose premises in the Borough-
road fell and buried several of the workmen on Monday
last, as previously announced, with the assistance of
several practical surveyors, made a most searching in-
quiry for the purpose of, if possible, finding out the
cause of such a lamentable occurrence. The result of
the inquiries, and the inspection of the remaining por-
tions of the girders still adhering to the walls, at once
showed the precise cause of the fall.
Mr. Thomas Polgase stated that his brother, the pro-
prietor of the works, had been some time back pro-
ceeded against by the Crown for not complying with
the recent act of Parliament, making it compulsory for
furnaces to consume their own smoke. Having Go-
vernment work on band, such as the casting of bomb-
shells for the East, and knowing the importance to
the country of getting the same finished as soon as
possible, the proprietor made the necessary inquiries as
to whether the alterations that were required to con-
form with the act of Parliament could be carried out
with perfect safety, so as not to jeopardise either
the several workmen or even the building. The
advice he then received was to this effect, that a new
and larger boiler was required, but that an iron pillar
standing on a turned arch which covered the former
boiler used would have to be removed ; but providing a
temporary wooden column sufficiently strong was used
during the removal of the iron one no danger need be
apprehended. Consequently a timber plank of 12 inches
square was placed on the old arch, and which ran as high
as to support the main wooden girder that ran the ex-
treme length of the premises. The great heat of the ad-
joining furnace, or some other unexplained cause, made
the timber shrink, and at the moment of the accident,
Mr. Thomas Polgase, who was within a foot or so of the
prop, saw it fall out of the perpendicular, and, as may be
supposed, made a hasty retreat, giving, as he proceeded,
a general alarm. Before, however, he had time to ac-
complish his object, the girder, which was 99 feet long,
snapped short in the centre, which caused -Boor after
floor to fall to the ground in rapid succession, making
the walls on either side to swing precisely like a ship in
a heavy sea.
It appears a perfect miracle how so many of the nu-
merous workmen could have effected a safe retreat ; and
it is gratifying to know that a vast number received not
the least injury, and the proprietor's brother, who stood
in so mach danger, got out of the premises'nnscathed.
A workman named Joseph Brady, who was attending
at the side of his lathe, on seeing the floor bending, at
once made an attempt to get to the window, for the
purpose of jumping out ; but not having sufficient time,
he lay down at the side of the machine, which was ex-
ceedingly fortunate, as the girders and wheels fell in a
slanting form, and resting on the lathe at one end, the
man's life was preserved, although the millstones, of
several hundred pounds weight each, kept rolling over
the temporary covering of his head.
The roll was yesterday morning called, and, with the
exception of those in the two hospitals, it was ascertained
that no persons were missing.
Upon making inquiries last evening at the hospitals,
it was ascertained that the man who it was at first ex-
pected was mortally wounded, and was carried to the
hospital in such an insensible state that the authorities
of the institution were afraid to even ask him his name,
lest it might hasten his dissolution, in the course of a
few hours recovered sufficiently from the shock he ex-
perienced to be taken home. The whole of the others,
though suffering exceedingly from the injuries they sus-
tained, are likely to recover under the excellent treat-
ment they receive in the hospitals.
It will no doubt be satisfactory to the country to
know that the contract entered into by Mr. Polgase
with the Government, for the manufacturing of a certain
amount of shells for the Crimea, will not in the least
degree be delayed, as the proprietor, having other large
works at Stepney, &c., gave orders for carrying on the
casting of the instruments of war at the last-named place,
which was accordingly commenced yesterday morning
at an early hour.
It is the opinion of the firm that the ruins can be
cleared, a temporary building erected, and the business
resumed in the course of a week, or a few days later at
the most.
Although the loss of property will amount to several
thousand pounds, it will not reach near as much as was
at first anticipated, owing to the timber rafters shelter-
ing to a great extent some of the lathes and other vale-.
able machinery. The millstones, with few exceptions,
have not received much injury, but a large drilling ma-
chine of great value bas been completely knocked toeen
pieces, and several paper-folding machines have
either destroyed or reduced to mis-shap
A. vast crowd of persons flocked to the mass
e&
b a
of t suce
catastrophe during the whole of yesterday,
the dangerous state of the remaining portion ethe
walls
oe
no one
teoente. unconnectedr with the wo_.......rkswas allowed by the

from New
Aw7itLANh thnecir.
New.
—TheTicL New
iPy.H loOlf,OM3f Newfoundland,llNi CATiON
AanTLsosnThdolgn Telegraph
Companyoperations.
Accordingb a ptr
oo gor eusrinlga
sfta v:;racbelsy
York, Mr. C. W. Field, the managing director, had jest
fohuanrdbloaunrd,
~ITO,_iic,
contract Hailer mcaabkleingtoa favourablevceryonn
foundland with Cape Breton, This cable is to be
returned
for the
seventy miles in length, and was to be shipped
early this month. The company confidently ex.,
pects to have telegraphic communication established
thebetween first wNeeewk i YorknJ u July. and
St.
All John
the e
necessaryN
wharf accommodations have been secured
for the Collins steamers, which will call at
St. John's
trips between America and Europe. 1 there on their
fore, every reason to believe that • Ire have, there-
two continents will be within six in three months the
upon an average, for all purposes days of each other,
commu-
nication, The enterprise • of telegraphic '
the neglected but is of the utmost importance
extensive and important to
Newfoundland.
o
PRICE OF GOLD.___The
about at par (accord' quotation of gold at Paris is
g to the last tariff), which, at the
English Mint price in
ard mild, gives an of 3/. 17s. 10(1. per ounce for stand-
at Par on London
nge of 25.17 ; and, the exchange
gold is about 0.19 at short being 25 20, it follows that
per cent, dearer in London than in
Paris. 13y advises
4241 per from Hamburg the price of gold is
__ . mark, which, at the English Mint price of
3t- li_ s. 101 d. per ounce for standard gold, gives an ex-
change of 13.41 ; and, the exchange at Hamburg on
London at short being 13.4, it follows that gold is 0'53
per cent, dearer in London than in Hamburg. The
course of exchange at New York on London for bills at
60 days' sight is 1101 per cent., and, the par of exclange
between England and America being 109 23-40 per
cent., it follows that the exchange is nominally 0.67 per
cent, in favour of England; and, after making allowance
for charges of transport and diffeence of interest, the
present rate leaves a profit on the r
importation of gold
from the United States.
Complaints are made that the overland Indian postage
via Marseilles is still maintained. at is. Bd., n
otwith-
standing the reduction which has taken
place in the
charge for the transit through France.

The house then divided, whe e numbers were—
For the second reading.............. 102
Against it ................................. 98
Majority ........................... —4
The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.