The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-05 00:00:00

THE S 1 N, LONDON. SATUROAV EVENING, MAY 5 1P55.

(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) I woull not shut the
pod" to agy p,3S lT,la neroaa.tion :brsuch measurfs
intoVillich the right bons gentleman would wish to '
trice her Mijesty's Government, (ffear.) 'We sir,
that we woul,l produce the protocols. Those protocols shill
be produced, and when they are produced it will be for
the house to determine whether they think it advisable to
take any steps founded thereupon. We are anxilus to give
to this house and to the country all the information we
think consistent with the public interests and consistent
with the possibility of any future amicable arrangement of
those differences which have compelled us to embark in a
great and arduous contest. While, on the one hand, we
are determined to continue that contest, so long as it shall
be inevitably necessary, in a manner consistent with the
honour, the dignity, and the interests of the country, so,
on the other hand, we shall not be the parties to shut the
door to the possibility of concluding an honourable and sa-
' tisfactory peace. (Hear, and cheers.)
LORD DUNDONALD'S INVENTION.

Mr. FRENCH said he re ss to put a question to the First
Lord of the Treasury, of which he had given notice some
days ago. He might remind the house that, after an ex-
penditure of some 30,000,0, ;01. upon the conduct of the
wer, the result, if not humiliating to this couutty, had at
least been most unsatisfactory. He believed the number of
Available British bayonets in the Crimea did not exceed
by more than 1,00 , what it was when the battle of Inker-
man was fought; that the army was still invade to take
idle field for want of the moans of transport ; that a large
portion of the cavalry was still dismounted ; that a con-
'utterable body of the Artillery was without horses ; and
that, according to the stetement of the First Lord of the
Admiralty the other night, the only possible road by which
our a, my could take the field—namely, that by Metkeu-
ale's Farm—hail been occupied by a force of between
56,000 and 60,000 Russian troops. The public out of
doors would hold that house responsible if they allowed
a Government to remain in power which, failing to
conclude an honourable peace, neglected any means
that might be placed at its disposal calculated to
bring the war to a speedy and successful termi-
nation. The plan to which his qestion referred
was one that had been long prepared and well matured ley
one who had had great experience in naval warfare and in
attacks upon fortified places. Lord Dundonald had dis-
tinguished himself by his exploits in the Basque Roads and
the Bey of Callao, and on other occasions, and he (Mr.
French) amnia venture to say that in respect of scientific
acquirements, professional knowledge, and personal gal-
lantry, the noble lord had not a superior, if, indeed, he
had an equal, among living men. One of Lord Duo-
donald's most uncompromising political opponents, Sir A.
Alison, speaking of him under his earlier tide as Lord
Cochrane, said that he was, after the death of Nelson, the
greatest naval commander of that ago of glory—equal to
hi 4 great predecessor in personal gellentry, enfhusLsfic
ardour, and devotitin to his country, and perhaps his
superior in original genius, in mental power, and inex-
haustible resources. He (Mr. Frenck) had said that
the plan of the noble lord had bee long considered
and well matured. So far back as the reign of George
IV., :st, the request of that Sovereign, Lord Dun-
donaldN pit n was submitted to Admirals Lord Exmouth
and Keith,and such was their opittion of the terrific effi eiency
of the noble earl's invention, that they expressed their epi-
nion that, for the welfare of the human race, it was advis-
able that the noble lord should carry his secret to the grave.
The noble lord at that time acquiesced in this view ; but last
yearseeing _he pretlicarnent in which his country waspleced,
and being anxious to promote the cause of civilisation
'against barbarism, he tendered his plan and his personal
services to the late Government without fee or reward. He
at the same time offered his services to go to the Baltic and
• delatroy Cronstadt. To these tenders he got no answer, but
a reference was made to three admirals and two scientific
persons. These admirals were of opinion that at present it
was not expedient to carry the plan into effect ; but he
believed the scientific men gave it as their opinion that the
force employed by the noble and gallant lord would be per-
fectly irresistible. On the return of Sir C. Napier from the
Baltic the plans were shown to him, and, after giving them
. the fullest consideration, he came to the conclusion, as he
'was informed, that the noble lord was able to carry out
everything he undertook to accomplish. (Hear.) It was
in these circumstances that he now wished to put a question
to the Governmeut. The Government 'night, on the ground
of the high reputation of the noble lord (Dundonald) have
sately availed themselves of the plans which he had sub-
mitted to them ; but they had forced him to divulge those
plans to seven or eight persons, and it might possibly be
that the first experiment they heard of them would be in
the destruction of our own forces. (Hear.) If the noble
lord would state that the Government were d termine t not
to give a trial to the plans of the noble and gallant admiral,
it would be easy fur him to appeal to the country, and to
obtain a mini of money sufficient to enable him to carryout
those plans in defiance of the apathy and indifference of
the Government. (Hear. hear.) The question he had to
put was, what steps had been taken, and what decision, if
any, had been come to in relation to the proposal made by
the Pearl of Dautionald for the destruction of the Russian
fortresses ?
Lord PALMERSTON—Having already made a speech
upon the motion before us, it is only by the indulgence of
the house that I can be permitted to give an answer to the
question put by my hon. friend. I trust, however, that
the, house will not refuse to grant me that indulgence. No
than can entertain a higher opinion than I of L
Dundonald. I have the pleasure and honour of his ac-
quaintance for a great number of years. He stands as
high as any man ever did stand in his profession with re-
gard to naval affairs ; he is a man, moreover, of great and
extensive scientific attainments, and therefore any opinion
.tedberately entertained by him is entitled to the highest
and Nitwit consideration of the Government. The plan
which Lord. Dundonald propaseit last year was, as my
hon. friend states, necessarily submitted to the considera-
tion of a certain number of professional and scientific per-
sons ; and the effect of their inquiries anti consideration
was that there appeared to be such difficulties of execution
end such doubtful expectations as to the result that
nothing was then done upon it. The p'an has recently
been again pressed on the consideration of the Government
by Lori Dundonald. The matter is still under their COlibi-
iteration, and is far float being so free from tb•uhts anti
ditli,n!ties as my hon. friend seems to Lnagine. But all I
..;an sty is, that it is under consideration ; and I think that
if there is a plan from Lord Dandon..ld or any other pens, n
winch is calculated to accomplish the ends and obj•cts
stated by try hon. friend, there can be no great advantage
in publicly discussing it, or pointing out to the enemy
agein..t whotu it would* employed either the prebability
of Ite'lin Mediate execution,or anything which might enable
them to guess the meaner in which it might-be applied.
COLONEL CROMBIE.
efr. H. BARING asked ;he Under-Secretaty for War
whether it was the fact that Colonel Crotnbie, late of the
Coldstream Guards; was placed on the half-pay list in con-
sequence of ill-health, and at hie own express desire? He
was induced to ask this question in consequence of a
statement made the other night by the hon. member for
Aylesbury, that Col. Crumble was compelled to tender hi-
resignatien, and was not aware that he had been put on the
leaf-pay list till he saw his name in the Gazette.
Mr. PEEL understood this question to hive been put in
consequence of a statement inane by the hon. member for
Aylesbury, to the eff,ct that C done! Crembie had been
obliged to go upon helf-pty in order that promotion might
be given to certain officers below him. He need opt say
that that statement was entirely inaccurate, nor could he
edit anything to ivbat was stated the other evening by his
hon. and gallant relative the member for Huntington. It
appeared that Colonel Crombie having suffered from bad
health while at Varna, and being incapacitated fro.); ser-
vice in the Crimea, wished to retire on half-pay ; and, so
far from getting the first notice of his being put on half-
pay from the Gazette, he had leniu expecting it ever since
the munth of January last (Hear.)
THE MILITIA.
Mr. H. BAILLIE, iu risieg to call the attention of the
house to the state of the militia force in the United King-
dom, regretted that he was forced to bring so important
a subject before the house in such a manner. The house
was aware that in consequence of a doubt existing as to
whether a certain portion of the militia force was tinder the
act liable to be called on for service for a longer period than
56 days, Government decided to allow those in that post-
tion to return home. A large number availed themselves
of the opportunity, and the result was, the militia force
was in a complete state of disorganisation, and very much
reduced in numbers. That condition was in a great dues
sure to be attributed to the conduct of the Government, in
not availing themselves of the powers entrusted to them by
act of Parliament. When the hon. member for Midhurst
introduced the bill, be stated there were two modes of
raising a militia ; one, voluntary enlistment; the other the
•ballot. The voluntary system was, no doubt, sufficient to
secure the efficiency of the force in time of peace, when it
was a matter of indifferenciewhether the force numbered
50, 60, or 70 thousand men. In time of war, it was of
the greatest possible importance that the militia should
be maintained at its fall complement, because on its effi-
ciency depended their means of keeping up the numbers
of the army. P, was obvious to every one that a system
of voluntary enlistment for the militia must enter into
direct competition with the enlistment for the army—the
two could not be successfully carried on together. As soon
as the war broke out, Government ought to have taken
immediate steps for carrying out the ballot. It was said
6 months would be required to prepare the machinery ;
but although 6 months had elapsed, nothing had' been
done. The result was that the militia force was so re-
duced that at present he believed it did not muster 30,000
men. The deficiency in the army was, still greeter. He.
had heard on good authority that the army was now
41,000 men below the complement voted by Parliament;
and although the Government asserted that recruiting
was going on most favourably, he believed that the
weekly returns did not show a number more than
sufficient to eupply the c asualtiee that were daily occur-
ring.; The casual'iee of the army in time of peace were
94,060 men a year, and they must now be at least
15,000. When the noble lord was se'ecte.l to form a go-
vernment, it was considered that the selection was based
on the prevalent opinion that he was a man who would
carry on the war with energy and vigour ; but he (Mr.
Baillie) was at a loss to see in what that energy snit vi-
gour consisted. He thought even the Government of Lord
Aberdeen had displayed more vigour. They had sum-
moned Parliament at a most unusual period; in order to
take measures for raising a foreign legion ; and although
the act was passed five months ago, it was only within
the last ten days that any stops had been taken by the
noble lord to carry it into execution. The noble lord had,
indeed, tall them that the language used in that house had
prevented the Germans from enlisting, but they might
have got men els 'where. He knew fora 'fact, that a distin-
guished Swiss officer had come to this country to offer the
Lhaulwvitsheesnortw(rfioratoolyrn:
the; but
Government. h e ay a s kept
If forno
lord
had
ds
wwietrheintethbee I
signed
nhea,rl pae netppiitttutetin.tni
of
agreement with a Brunswick general, who was to raise a
body of troops of which he was to have the commend? What
was the condition of the administrativedeparttnents at the
present moment ; what was the state of the War D 'part-
ment ? He bsdeved it had been in a more efficient state in
the time of the Duke of Newcastle. Toe noble lord the mew.
her for the city of London had shown himself very vigilant
in looking after the Duke of Newcastle. (Hear.) He hoped
he would be equally vigilant in looking after Lord Pau-
mute. (Rear.) They had lately had a sample of the way in
which of were conducted at the 'War-office. A state-
ment had appeared to the effect that a large body of the
Guards had been sent to Portsmouth in a great hurry to
embark, but that when they got there they found the
vessel half full of other detachments. The detachments
were put on shore, and then the Guards were embarked,
but without their baggage, leaving behind their clothes,
and even their shoes, and having the old muskets
instead of Minie rifles, This statement was adverted to

in the other house. The minister said he knew nothing of
the facts, but be did not think it pos-iblethat such things
could have occurred. Great allowance ought to be made

for Lord Panmure, as his health would not allow him to
devote all his time to the duties of his office ; but while

:tTie—depatinTeltwas in such a state, the noble lord the
member for London ought to take it under ►is protection.
The militia ought at once to he brought up to its full com-
plement. It would, no doubt, be inconvenient to have re-
course to the ballot, but when the country went to war it

knew what the consequences would he. He had oppesedi the
'war; He relietigtt it Might Bete bean fi-oitleei, but as it, hied
ceiMmenced it shoal l be conducted with vig o! sill effect.
The honour_ and diameter of the country were saiiiriticedt by
the mode in which it was concluded, England should die-
pend on its own resources. They heard every day of new
French battalions being sent out, hut they never hear& of
any fresh English battalion ; and why, because they had
no more men, from the mismemagewent of their resources.
He had f lt it hit duty to b! ing this matter under the
notice of tho h use, because be believed the indignation of
the country would not be much longer restrained. He
begged to ask what measures, if any, were in contempla-
tion on the pert of the Government to restore the efficiency
of the militia force ?
. Mr. F. PEEL believed he was irregular in again address-
ing the house, but the hon, member had been more irregu-
lar in the number of topics he hail introduced. He had
fallen into several errors. It was not true that no English
soldiers had been sent out within the last two months ;
upwards of 10,003 men had gone frons this country. The
hon. gentleman hail referred to the embarkation of the
troops on board the Alma. The fact had been repeatedly
explained. The difficulty simply arose in this manner :
the officers at Liverpool reported the vessel to be capable of
carrying a certain nu-nber of troops ; when the vesaci ar-
rived at Portsmouth the officiisls there considered she
could not take so large a number. Under these circum-
stances, a number of detachments of other regiments were
landed, and the Guards p!aced on board. It would of
course have been iu the power of the Government to have
carried out their original intention, bat the result might
have been great sickness and mortality amongst the troops
in consequence of overcrowding. As to the foreign legion,
;t was not true that several officers had }eon refused! corn-
missions. teraise men under the act: Two or three officers
had lately proceeded to Germany to enlist men, and in a
very short time depots would be established at Heligoland
end in this country. The hon. gentleman hail referred to
the state of the militia. It was the intention of the Go-
vernment to take every means in their power to place that
force in an effective state, for the progress of the war had
brought out their dependence 'on it.' When the arty was
sent abroad the number of regiments of infantry of the line
! usually kept in this country was so mach reduced that it
became necessary to embody a number of militia regiments
and place several of them in garrison to perform the duties
hitherto discharged by the infantry of the line. Lately,
in consequence of the necessity of reinforcing the army iu
the Crimea, the garrisons in the Mediterranean had been
reduced below their usual strength. In consequence of that
reduction an appeal had been made ureter the act of Parlia-
ment to the militia regiments in this country to volunteer
for service abroad; several regimente had volunteered, and
two or three had already left this country to reinforce the
garrisons at Gibraltar and Corfn. It was no doubt true, as
had been related by the hon. gentleman, that a considerable
inroad had been made upon the effectiveness of the militia
force of this country, in coneequereee of the discussions
which had recently taken place with Aspect to the act of
1854; but be did not conceive that the Government was at
all responsible for what haul happened under the': act, nor
did he think it was open to them to take any other course
than that which they h dd pursued. As i•egariled that ques-
tion the case was simply thie. The meerfwho were embodied
prior to the priesttegof the tad sills4s44ffered their services
under the impression, he might even say on the understand-
ing, lhat they would only he liable to be called out for train-
ine for a period of from 21 to Sidays in the rear, end would
be liable to he called out for perrnaneet duty only in the
event of this country being threatened with an invasion.
Now, he had no doubt that, considering how important an
event.thet was, many persons joined the miitia prior to
the passing of the act of 1854, under the persuasion that
they would not lose their civil employments by entering
that force. The act of 1851 altered the conditions of service.
That act authorised the °Mho Leine of the militia at any
time when this country wasat war, and thecountry happened
to beat war at the time when it passed. Then the onestion
arose whether that act ha I a retrosipeciive effect. The law
officers of the crown were consulted din the subject, and they
gave a decided opinion that the act did apply to the men
ahe were enrolled prior to its being rowed, in fact, that
its operation was retrospective. If, therefore, the militia
hail refused to serve for moue than 56days, the government
would have been prepared with "an answer. He thought,
however, the hone must be of opinion' that nothing was
more likely to conduce to the effectiveness of the militia
thin the maintertance of confidence between that force and
the government of the country, and that this word,' not have
been secure" by arbitrarily taking advantage of the act
which had been passed in opposition to the understanding
With which the msn joined. Under these circumstances a
circular was issued, giving to the men the ()pion of re-
turning home after they had served '6 days, or else of being
reattested for the unexpired period of service, receiving an
additional bounty of one pound, in consideration of the
enhdrged liability which they contracted under the act of
1851. No doubt the militia very largely availed themselves
of that circular. A great number of the men returned to
their homes, and the militia regiments —although none of
them were actually broken up—had suffered considerable
diminution. The hon. gentlemen proposed to resort t the
ballot as a means of supplying the loss which hail been
thus occasioned. The fact was that the ballot wouldl not
answer the purpose. The menwho weregono to their homes
remained upon the effective strength of their regiments,
and when the period came round next year for their 56
days' service they would be called upon to join their regi-
' ments. Consequently the ballot could not be had recourse
to for the purpose of supplying the places of these men,
unless they ware discharged altogether ; and their could be
no doubt that, if this step were taken, the first duty of the
Givernment, considering the inconvenience of having re-
course to the ballot, would! be to ascertain whether their
places could not be supplied by the same process by which
they originally joined, namely, voluntary enlistment,. If
the Government failed in that attemptthey might then have
recourse to the ballot. He admitted that even including the
men who hasi gonebeek to their homes, the effective strength
of the mil itie regi men ts was considerably below theesitablieh-
ment. The act of Parliament authorised the levy of 80,000
men for England and Wales. At notiMe. he thought, bad
there been more than from 45 000 to 50 003 men actually
et: rolled, and that number had lately stiff -reit a considerable
owing to the ci:cemstsuce that so great a nutn-
-13 r of me, 11.1 ',turned to their homes. The present
Ntren fth of th 3 militia, regiments in this country lid I,ot ex-
ceed 2,5 030 m 31). Titre was one very important consi
tion in the Gre at cempleidits had been made ie con-
sequence cf Lauren having nee,i priced on billets. The
practice gave gloat diAiAtiZLetion to the heuseholders neon
.whom the 1440 13)“L„billk(01 ; and it liras ego:ally objee-
tionable ou account- of its tre,eirorelising elect on the men
themselves. At that moment, of the 25.003 men whom be
had mentioned as beiegundler arms isairiglaadl r.tidl Waled,
there were not more than 6,0'10 iu i artfson ; the retrediaing
19,030 bong on billets. Every endeavour was being made
toy th, government to obtain barracks and hired acco ;IMO-
dation for the militia, both in this country end in Scot-
land ; and he thought it would be unwise to have recourse
to the ballot for the purpose of obt mining a larger number
of men than could, for some time at least, be provided
with barrack accommodation.
Colonel KNOX thought that no answer had been given
to the question of his hon. friend. (Hear.) What his
hon. friend wanted to know, and what the country wanted
to know, was wh at ste.a the Government were taking in
Order to put the militia regiments on a proper footing.
Colonels of miltia were con =tautly writing to the War-office
for :assistance, and could get no answer. If the War-office
were unable to attend to the details connected with the
militia, it was, he thought, incumbent on the noble lord at
the head of the Government at once to obtain a general
tiff for that force, whieh should receive all reports and
adimi.lieter the affairs of the militia under the authority of
the Home-offise. At present the militia was :at a dead
lock, whereas it, certainly might he made a most efficient
force. A noble lord, who was the colonel ()Nile Donegal
Militia, hed stated that he had 1,100 men, who were sleep-
ing four or five in a bed, and were living like pigs.
(Catiehter.) He hail applied to the War-office for aid, and
halt obtaidie I no reply. The militia force was like the
regular army, paralysed, and he wanted to know what the
Government were doing to place it quickly on an efficient
footing. The hon. gentleman (Hr. F. Peel) said that 10,01)0
men had left this country in the last two months. He
should be glad to have a return with regard to those men,
as the numbers appeared to him rather exaggerated.
Mr. BENTINCK said there was one statement of the
Under-Secretary at War, which appeared to him especially
to require explanation ; be referred to his declaration that
he hoped that in a short time depots would be formed for
the troops to be obtained under the Foreign Enlistment
Bill. A special session was held at the close of last year
for the express purpose of passing that measure, and they
had not yet heard of any progress being made in carrying
it out. They were now told by the hon. gentleman, at
the expiration of a period of five months, that ho hoped to
be able at some future time to state to the house that
depots were being established for the troops enlisted
under that act. If that was a sample of the activity anti
energy of the Government in the prosecution of the war,
it was not very likely to be brought to a speedy or satis-
factory termination. (Hear, hear.) He thought he had
a right to ask the Government to state what had led to
such an apparently unaccountable delay ?
Colonel GILPIN said, in consequence of what had
fallen from the hon. and gallant niember (Colonel Knox),
he rose to state, that having, as a colonel of militia, had
frequent communications with the War-office, he had
always met with the greatest courtesy and attention.
(Hear, hear.) As an independent member, and a general
opponent of the Government, he felt bound to make this
acknowledgment. (Hear.) He hoped that if the troops
were to remain at Aldlershott during the next winter,
better accommodation would be provided for the officers,
the size of the butts which they occupied at present being
only 9 feet by 10.
Odd. NORTH said that, as a colonel of militia, be had re-
ceived the greatest possible assistance from the War-office.
Mr. BELLEW said, having the honour to hold a com-
iniseion in au English militia re .dintsidt, lie wished to know
when the militia were to go to Aldershott, as he expe-
rienced great evils through the billeting ayetem. He would

also inquire whether the Government -intended that all
the militia regiments of Ireland should be station,rl at
the Curragh of Kildare. The Government should bear 111
mind the antagonism between certain classes of Itishmen.
The Irishmen of the south and west could not possibly be
prevented from quarrelling with the Irishmen of the north
of Ireland. (Laughter )
Mr. COWAN trusted that before long the billetting
system would be aimlished in Scotland. He had submitted
to Lord Panmure a letter froma billet master ofEdin-
burgh, who acted under the authority of the commission-
ers of pollee, containing some valuable suggestions on the
subject, which Mr. Rau..say, his lordship's private secre-
tary, had informed him were likely to be adopted.
Sir J. WALSH complained that no answer had been
given to the question of the hon. member for Inverness,
Whether the Oovernment contemplated any measures, and
if so what measures, to restore the militia to a state of
effileticv. In the desponding and gloomy statement of the
Under Secretary at War, it was confessed that the effec-
tive force of the militia was reduced to 25,000 men. while
there had been U 3 contradiction of his hon. friend's (Mr.
Baillie) statement, that the regular army was 40,'.03 under
the numbers voted by Parliament. If the present conflict
Was to go on. and Eegiand was to maintain her position as
a first-rate power, much more energetic measures must be
adopted than ally which had been seen hitherto. AU the
exertions made rip to this time were puny and insipitieaut
compared with the nature of the contest in which they
were eo_.,ageil, or the effoitA put forth at previous periods.
Mr. (yr vcr A Y said if the c.ointry was unable to keep up
a suflic:ent military force, the sooner it retired from the
contest in which it was engaged the butter. (Hear.) He
had put a qnestion on the paper that morning to he ad-
dressed to the First Lord of the Treasury ; and be should
now refer to thesubject incidentally, because he understood
that the noble lord was precluded by the forms of the
house from giving a reply. He wished to know whether
the Government considered that it became the dignity of this
country to enter into a sort of surreptitious war. Had the
agents of this country in Germany the sanction of the sove-
reigns of Germany for seeking to enrol their subjects? He
askal this question because it appeared that this country
had already been subjected to some humiliation by pro-
ceedings of that kind. At New York the authorities had
interposed to prevent the enrolment of men by an agent of
this country; and in that frivadlypower, Prussia, a decree

hail been issued for the sit>ne purpose. H.) wished to know
whether, while we were ssuding rigetta tO pefrttiati states
to enrols ,'•ii •r.., we were so &dors with the Cogejsence of
the soversiges of these ..tates.
The M irquie of GRANBY sail that it seemed to Lim
reinst important th rt every faeility should ne given to wen
'to be re-attested in the militia. • He hail heard, however,
that after 2t days no militiaman was allowed to be re-
attested, and he should be glad to know whether that was
the case.
• Mr. H. FIERBERT felt certain that it would he .very
impolitic to join in one Jr corps militiamen of different
religions and feelings. He felt certain that great discords
would arise in those regiments in which men from the north
an• i from the south• were both to be found. As an instance,
he might mention thst being in an hotel one day in the
south of Ireland he hail men ioned the matter quite by
hazard, and he was instantly met by such an outburst of
feeling that, had he been so inclined, a very pretty quarrel
might have been the result. (Hear and ,aughter.)
Si, G. GREY rose to answer the qu sties's which had
been addressed to the Government by different hon. mem-
bers in the course of. the present discussion. An hon.
member opposite hail complained that his hon. friend (Mr.
F. Peel) hail not given the ieformetion which bad been re-
(mired of him with regard to the militia, and that. especi-
ally he hail not stated the int mtions of the Govern went
with regard to the ballot. Now he (Sir G. Grey) hail en-
derstoed his bon, friend distinctly to state th 1 her Ma-
jesty's Government did not consider that the time had yet
come when recourse to that system would be found ab-
solutely necessary. ( Hear.l In con titre et ien of that state-
ment, he could now state that from official documents it
appeared that P. considerable increase in voluntary enlist-
ment in the militia hail taken place within the Ist month.
Another hon. gentleman had stated that in his opinion
separate staff ought to b. orwmisetl for the nii!ititt. But
that hon. gentleman should hear in mind that. the militia,
when embodiee. beeline a portion the military force of
the nation, and as such subject to the same departments
as the other prt ions of the -army. With regard to the
question of billeting, be admitted, that many evils at-
tached to that system, and before the militia was embo d
(and hence was Stilt under the control of the Home-office),
he had received :rany valuable cotennimications from colo-
nels of regiments neon the subject. He quite coscurred in
the justice of the complaint then made to him, and had
accordingly taken the opportunity of placing the matter
before the War Department, He could assere the hetue
Lot, only that the matter had not been lost sight nf, but
there was every wish on the part of the Government to pro-
vide the required barrack accommodation. While upon
this subject, he might mention to the house that from a
return which his hon. friend (Mr. F. Peel) had procerad
since he addressed the house, it appeared that the number
of militia tinder arms in the United King loco vest; 42,34.
With regard to the permission to re-attest, to which refer-
ence had been made by the noble lord opposite (the Mar-
quis of Granby) the case stood thus. Oue menth's leave
of absence was 110* given to militiamen, within which
period they must make up their coronas as to re-attesting
or not. This g •ye them an opportunity of visiting their
friends and of giving ample consideration to the iss'etr,
while it prevented men from coining in after a long lase
of time and claiming the bounty. Another hon. gentleman
(Mr. Otwav) his asked a question with regard t e the fo-
reign enrolment. That hon member appeared to thirds
that the Government were proceeding to do too much ;
while, on the other hand, an hon. member opp site (Mr.
Blithe) censured them for doing too little. The fact was
that difficulty had arisen in working the Foreign Enlist-
' ment Act by reason of the debates which hart taken place
in that hoes() and elsewhe-e before that act passed. Mane
persons who had promised assistance to the Government.
and who had even offered to raise men, hal held back
when they were treated and spoken of as mercenaries
Nor could it he overlooked that the denial of half-pay to
officers had operated as a great disconragement. At the
same time, he was now happy to say that the Government
-had received renewed offers of assistance, and that agents
had been appointed, natives of foreign countries, for the
purpose of enrolling men. Of course, in taking these step,,
the laws of continental countries would not be broken
through. He believed he hall now replied to all the ques-
tione which had been put by hon. members.
Mr.• WALPOLE asked if the right. hon. gentleman could
state the number of militiamen actually enrolled ?
Sir G. GREY could not at that moment give the re-
quired information,
S:r J. PAKINGTON had beard a report that MOM
men were expected to arrive from Germany quite unex-
pectedly. (Roars of laughter.) He wished to know whe-
ther this was so?
Sir G. GREY hail not heard of any such expected arrival.
Mr., ADDERLEY wished to call the attention of the
house to a proposition for availing ourselves of the services
of convicts in the Crimea. There were at the present mo-
ment 10,000 convicts in the Government prisons, and this
amount was being recruited at the rate of 400 n.-year. A
great number of these convicts—as mane be believe-I as
2,000 annually—were being turned adrift upon eocisty
under letters of licence. The proposition which he now
made had been brought under the attention of the Duke of
Newcastle wh n he held office. but nothing had been done
upon it. There was little doubt but that great evils arose
from the present system of tickets of leave, and hail not
-the excitement of the war turned public attention fro o
it, the house would have had the matter forced upon
its aonsi leration. But, in truth, the war wad the very
reason for considering the subject, for4it afforded a means
of dealing- with the matter which could not occur in a
time of peace. At the very time when
.these convicts,
_able - bodied men, were turned alrift, without the
means of doing anything for their living, the house knew
that our army in the Crimea was suffering from want of
men for the performance of duties which were now tin-
derteken by soldiers, although not properly coming within
-the scope of ,military matters. He would thetefere
propose that.such of our convicts as were physical'', fit for
the duty should be sent out to the Crimea, to act strictly as
Is labour corps only, They ought not to he used in any
military duty, and their pay should be upon the task-work
system. He believed that by this plen at least 1,510 men
could at once be sent out to the East. Fie had consulted
various persons upon this subject, who from their •know-
ledge of these men and the duties of a camp were compe-
tent to give en minion upon the matter. and on all sid7s
he ha found the prop sition receiveil with a certain degree
of favour. He ea.ar (,attn a rei-ort of the proceedings in
mother plac that it w intended to Rend out a b rly of
2.000 nay vii.s to the East He thought that
these men
would not b; likely to be cerviceabl as convicts, fo-
-01,1 woulst'' net be amenable to mi7itary discipli .e—cerr-
tainir T 101:. to the extent to which convict lab •urers would
be. He did not seek to raise a discussion upon the question
at tied titne, but, he should vertai,ly take an o; portunity
of be indite the matter undertho con-ideration of the 11,1180.
Mr. J. O'CONe. ELL mad 1 not go into the pro! o,itioe
of the hon. gentlem in, which he thought was sufficiently
interesting to demand a substantive motion ; he only wished
to refer to what ha 1. been said iu the earlier part of the
evening with regard to the militia regiments in Ireland
Hon. members had said that great danger' would arise if
the inhabitants of the northern and southern parts we, e
brought together in one regiment. He denied that this
was so. He belonged to a militia regiment Himself. in
which there were many gentlemen of religion and politics
differing very widely from his own, and he could say this,
that in that corps the only thought amongst its members
was the then eht of doing their duty.
Colonel DUNNE entirely concurred with the statements
of the hen. member who had list spoken. Several subjects
had been referred to in the course of that debate, which
were exciting great interest throughout the country. First,
as to the militia—we were certainty getting recruits, but
they were mere boys ; and instead of vine out to fight,
they went only to Scutari, or the grave. Then as to the
foreign legion—he di t not believe it would be reply in
time ; awl as to the Tarkish Isgion, he knew that the Os-
manli would not enlist under, or take drill from, the webs-
lieving Giaonr. Neither was the recruiting for the cavalry
geing on favourably ; and the reason, in his opinion, was,
that the pay offered was not enough to tempt the proper
class of men. He h Ted that some member of the Gotern-
°sent would give 801103 explanation respecting the recent
case of the Candi:), at Woolwich ; and also state whether
any tents hail been this year sent out to the army in the
Ciimea.
Sir G. GREY begged to observe, with reference to the
proposal to employ convicts in the siege' works, that there
were two classes of convicts, those who having been sen-
tenced to three or four years' penal servitude had spent
their whole period in prison or on the public works, and
those'who had letters of license corresponding to the ticket-
of-leave of the colonies. He thought it would be a very
hazardous pi ()position for the house to entertain, that a
convict having served 18 months in prison should, on the
strength of a good-convict certificate while there, be per-
mitted to enlist into the army, and form part of its regular
corps, but with the tnen who having spent three or four
years on the public works, had obtained a letter of ieense,
the case was different. That class of men were expected
to obtain an honest living in this country, and if it
could have been done secretly it might have been de-
sirable to employ there In the works connected with our
large military operations in the East. But the proposal
to enlist thent into separate corps, to be officered by gen-
tlemen, lied been considered by Lord Panniure, who
had come to the conclusion that it could not be
entertained. With respect to that very useful class of men
called " navvies " the best answer to the hon. member's
objection was the success which had already attended their
employment in the Crimea. (Hear, hear.) In the con-
struction of the BHA:J.IE6ra Railway they had given the
most efficient. aid to the military operations, and he was
informed that any number of these men might be obtained
for work eot purely of a military character.
The SPEAKER. reminded the house that orders of the
day had precedence of notices of motion, whereas during
the last three hours they had been discussing a motion
which must be withdrawti, seeing that the house must
meet to-morrow (this day) to attend a commission to give
the Royal Assent to the Loan Bill.
After a few words from an hon. member whose name we
could not learn,

Mr. 'MONS ELL explained that when the artillery horses
were about being shipped in the Candle, at Woolwich, the
captain remonstrated against the number about to be
put on deck, and the artillery officers present immediately
transuiitted the objection to the transport board. With re-
spect to the question about tents, his reply was 2,000
single tents had been sent otit since the beginning of the
year, the commander-in-chief having objected to doub:e
tents.
Motion withdrawn.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A message from. the Lords brought down certain bills,
including the Loan Bill.

TENANT 3' COMPENSATION BILL.
On the order for the adjourned debate on ,the second
reading of this bill,
Mr. GEORGE strongly opposed the bill, which be cha-
racterised as one for transferring the land of Ireland to the
tenant. He especially ditecteebis objections ag,kinst the
retrospective clauses. He complained, also, of the time
which the hon. and learned author of this bill had chosen
for reagitating thi, question ; and while there were points
in the measure to Which be gave his assent, ho protested

against the mixing up of tht7se good measures with others
that meant nothing but confisc,,titm•
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL defended both the pro.
4pective and retrospective clau,es of the bill, as consonant
to the principles of natural ju.tic-,, and fortified hise., If
by the opinions of Sir Win. Grant, Lord Eldon, arid Lord
Redesdale—t.on,! of them we ,ic conservators of the riOts
of property—and by the opi, ions of ail writers and expo-
sitors on the principles of natural justice. He quoted the
(minions of these eminent judges, which wont to establish
this principle, that if a landlord pertnitted a tenant to
make improvements without remark, then he was bound
to allow tl .) tenant compensation for those improvements,
either in time or in money.

Mr. MALINS expressed his strong 'dissent from the
doctrines laid down by the Solicitni-I.=eneral ; and ha was
sure that if Sir Wm. Grant and 1.0,rd Eldon could have
heard the principles attributed to them, they would have
started, affrighted: from .heir graves. He went at great
length into the principles adopted by the Court of Chan-
cery in dealing with questions between landlord and
tenant, which he said were totally opposed to those laid
(loam by the Solicitor-General : and he was quite sure the
hon. and learned gentleman would not, dare to apply such
principles to England. yr
—e "dialled for the day When he j

-beard such doctrines dod by an English lawyer,
an d that lawyer the zepres..a,,,Ave ut thu English Glveru-
ruent.

Mr. DE VERE mane his maiden speech in support 9f
the measure, which be characterised as one that llad no-
lilies; to do with party, and is a fair compromise between
contending interests, which he hoped the house would, in
the present tranquil condition of Ireland, press forward to
a settlement.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE strongly opposed the retro-
epee t ive clause.
. Mr. HOR ,MAN was surprised to find how forgetful
geutlemen on the other side of the house couhi be of what
had taken place in previous sessions with regard to this
subject. (Hear.) These hon. gentlemen expressed such
astonishment and indignation at the Government per-
mitting even the iutroductieu of a hill deseribeil to be so
monstrous in its principle and details, that one' would
have supposed the question of retrospective compen-
sation had never been heard of till the bid of his hon. and
learned • friend ; yet it was in its terms and in its:clauses
almost preasely the bill which the House of Cdinumns
Passed t• o years ago. (Heer.) They might recollect,
masse, th;:t it was under the Government of Lord Derby
that a retrospective clause, more extetedve than that in the
peseut bill, was passed by the house. (Hear.) The prin-
i. le of retrospet i v,? Compensation was even affil*ed by
the House of Lords. (Hear.) . The present Governmew;
deelimet to take tes the. question, because, eller
er hes hAt
passe 1 during the lest few sessions, they despaired of
cairsine !, bid on the subject. It was then that hi, hoe.
and learned friend said that ho would introduce a bill of
his o en. His hon. end leareed Mend aucerditiely ist tee
(Weed e bid which, being the .erne in prieciple a,nl it) de-
tails with the bill wine:, had passe.! the Haus° of Com-
mons, and bad been affirmed by the House of Lords, it,
wouA have been a strange position for the Government to
tale if • ley wer., to refuse their assent to the introduction
ef such ,-, bill. (Haar, hear.) What had been the history.
of the tenant co no-nsation tills? The tirst bill was intro-
duced about 20 years ago, by Mr. Sherman Crawford.
Ten years atter that a bill was intro inced by one of the
1 tr,gest prop; ieto7s in Ireland, and by a distinguished
memiier of the Government in 1815. In his speech cm that
occasion the noble lord distirictle adopted the principle or
retaosp, ctive compensation, and said that the tenant ',tight
not to be turned ont of h s farm without compensation,
whether it was his capital or labour that'he applidd to'its
improvement. (Hear.) That was the first occasion when
the principle of ret r -, - -five comeens ctiou had been advo-
cated in Parliament. (H ar.) In 1852 the light hon. gentle-
man the then Attorte y-General for Ireland (tlr. );eapier)
introduced three t ills on the subject of landlord and tenant,
and in one of those bale the principle of retrospective com-
pensation was laid down and caeried in that h use by a
majority of two to tree. (Hear.) Tl•e right hon. getAleitan
even laid it down that, the retrospeceve compeesation
sh. old be unlimited as to time. (Hear.) The year after,
the initiative was taken by the House of Lords, and two
of the bills introduced by the right hon. gentlemen, passed
the other House of Parliament, but the Tenants' Gempeti-
smtion Bill was dr ,ep A. Seeing that the principlis of re-
trospective compensation had been affirmed by both( houses
et. Parliament, tn. people of Ireland mieht jusilylexpect
to see it carried out by act (1 Parliament at no distecnt, pe-
riod. (Hear ) The bill of the hon. I.nti learned gent:es
man (Mr. Shee) was divided into prospective clauses anal
into retrospective clause'. About the first there was no
difference of opinion on either side of the house. He ad-
mitted, however, that the retrospective operation ot the
bill was surrounded with eifficulties. (Hear, hear.) His
hon and learned frier) (the S elicitor-General) had shown,
however, that the principle of retrospective compensation
was in conformity with natural justice and with the
judgments of their courts of emits. The honourable and
trod member for Wallingford, however, pail, that the
learned judges whom his hon. and learned frietid quoted.,
namely, Sir W. Grant and Lord Eldon, would have started
t*rom their graves had they heard the doctrine propounded
that a tenant could claim compensation on being evicted
from his lease. But his honourable and learned ifrien ,
• referred to evictions' not of tenants under lease, but of
tenants at will, which was the tenure of nine-tenths of the
farms in Ireland. iHenr, hear.) The relation between
land'ord and tenant in Irelerel was quite exception Al, and
therefore it might be necessary to have an exceptiOnal le-.
gislation. The fact that the proportion of lendloviti to the.
acreage of Ireland was stualler than in any country of
Re ope was lit the bottom of all the evils on this subject,
(Hear.) In the race of competition for land,, 1 3 .hish
landlord, without design and without policy on h part.,
became unconsciously absolved from the obligations to
which landlords in other countries were subject. His land
became a will-mess, his estde became exhausted, and you ..
had a miserable people competing for the high privilege ot
earning a scanty subsistence from the latid of their both.
(Cheers.) He had never uttered, and had never entertained
any sentiments disrespectful or disparaging to the land-
lords of Ireland. They were themselves, in many cases,
the victims of the circumstances in which they were Paced,
and the et il of impoverished landlords was to be at to
the evil of an impoverished tenantry. (Hear.) The •e lilt
was, the total disorganisation of society in Ireland. He
was speaking of a period a good many years back; yet a.
period within the recollection of many who ,iat ip that
house. There wa.s no motive • for exertion, no rew:i.rd for
enterprise; property became insecure, and even life itself
was not safe. Such was the description of the state of Ire-
land given by the Earl of Derby, himself a large aroptieter
in that country, and a good landlord. The peas int duelled
himself against the proprietor, and the proprietor bad re-
course to insurrections acts, arms acts, suspension bf the
Habeas Corpus Act, and to martial law—on one side the
agitation of the people, and military violence on the other.
That state of things happily passed away. The tteople
improved in condition, habits, and character, and the
proprietors became alive to a sense of duty. (Hear,
hear.) They bestirred themselves 'to the perfminance
of thei r duties in a manner that did them great hitnour, .
and a ground of hope was thus opened up flor the
people. There never was an instance on record of a Change
so sudden and so happy in its effects ; and it wa that
which cast upon them the duty and responsibi ity of
fostering that change. (Hear.) He should be indee sorry
if any party feelings prevented them from promoting it.
Ihe bill was open to several, but not very serious,' objec-
tions, and unless these were removed he would not feel
justified in voting for it. He would state his grounds of
objection. The first was, the bill pointed out a certein
class of improvements, for which it proposed to "iv'n com-
pensation. tie thought all improvements for Zell teen-
p eisai ion was granted ought te be tangible and material,
which might be easily estimated ; in the writer there were
Vie classes, iatillines, wards, and boundary . fences ; th
bill added d •einaese (Sergeant Shee, " That was In
the
farmer bill.") That might be, but he objected to al owins
compensetiori for recleintieg wa t e lands. His nexel'objec-
iion was, that the 14th clause allowed compensation feral)
improvements made before the passing of the act, H_-
ettached considerable importance to the objection of the
hon. member for Wexford as to the amount of litigation,
that it would produce- (hear)—and the advantages th it
sttended the bill in some respects would be more thou
counteib, lanced by the insecurity the clause would ;iv,
rise to. He woul ! suggest that a petied shetilil be filed
beyond which comp letation would riot run. (Hear, hear) •
He would suggest as an, amendment th;tt the aumulit 01
compensation should ho limited to a certain sure--.ay so
many years' rent; the number could be determined in
committee. He a'so considered that comeensat on ought
never to be given to a tenalt evicted for breach of contract
or Mirep yineut of rent. If these objections were obviated,
the Government were prepared not only to give their sop
port to the bill in that and the other house, but to force:int
it by every means in their pow, r. He would not ask his
hon. frie• il the member for 'Kilkenny to make these
changes in his bill ; he left the question in the bends of
the lrai•e. The Government were anxious to eniry the
matter to a successful issue, aid not perpefa•it e: a
*r
1 8:: m b
t
not heat VI v
making a parade of ame .pure they knew they could not
carry. 0, verninent 4-ere 11 epered honestlyama
up the hill if the provision re which thy could
assent were struck ,u 1.,. If the house thought that the bil;
ought to." be ela, td in their hands, with such conditions
-.old liwitatiibn+ as that they cord t ho eemey [import it, and
see their way toe, euccessfal sue, they were prepared to
give it every stippor`, both itethat an 1 in the other house
of Parliament, which it could derive ffrailhing in the
heeds ot the Government. Having said this much, he
would leave the question with the house. • .
Mr. DUFFY denounced the conduct ef the Government
for suggesting those alterations in the bill, and called upon
Messrs. Keogh. Fitzgerald, and Ball to redeem the Pledges
they gave to the people of Ireland at the last election,
anti
resign their places in a Government that would not support'
rtoi k,
. 3,
this bill as it stood.
Mr
ilyte
dw would support
littlesnp p obretn
benefit
te
fsreocmo milt
its
oe antic --
ing, i rihon A. H
though heEaßntßicEi
ration.

Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON contrasted the speeches of
Mr. Herewith and the Solicitor-General, and said the lat-
ter had gone far to embitter the whole question. With
the suggestions of the Iri h Secretary he generally agreed,
and, trusting that his amendments would be carped in
committee, he would recommend his friends to allow the
bill to be read a second time without dividing.
Sir J. FITZGERALD supportel the bill.
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, as there is so general an agree-
ment on the second reading of this bill—(ro, and cheers)—
Ido not say there is a unanimous agreement—but as the
great majority of this house are agreed on the second read-
ing of this bill, I hope that the helm will determine to
proceed with the second reading this evening. The course
which her Majesty's Government are prepared to take on
this bill has been fully explained by my right hon. friend
the Secretary for Ireland, and I have not.iirmg to add on
that point to the statement which he has made. I have
heard it said that this is not the proper time for settling
these disputes, but I think the time is peculiarly
favourable. This is a Reject which has agitated the
pnblio mind of Ireland for many years, and which gave
rise to the greatest animosities, and to strong differences o
opinion. The present moment is, as has been said, n
in which these differences of opinion are likely to rise to the
same height; there is a general content in Ireland; ar.el
this altogether a time when you will fiiel the minds or men
disposed to come calmly to the consirleration of any reason-
able proposition. It is true that this bill content platps o
condition of things in Ireland different from what e stn
England or Scotland ; hat that arises not lom arie faun
of the landlords or the tenants. I emelt• entirely in w
has been stated by the hon. member who has just sat (town.
that there are in Leland landlords as good as those ti
found in any other c muntry. I undertake to say that the,
are landlords in Ireland better. and ~,h, do more ft .r t!, it
tenants than any landlords in England or Scotland. There
are, doubtless, exceptions—landlords who, from tire
limited means, are unable to do that for their tenant,
which they ought or could wish—but Irepudiate altogether
the wholesale abuse which has been lavished at times on
the landlords of Ireland as a body of proprietors. (Hear )
On the other hand I repudiate the charges which have bean
made against the tenantry of Ireland, and I believe thee
are as capable of industrious energy as any tenantry in the
world. The evils of Ireland %re to be traced in t e former
history of that country. What has been that history ? It
has been a record of civil war, rehellion, of con 6seetion,
of penal laws, of exclusion, of the largest hart of the nation
from the p-ivileges of social exerti ,n,. and of the slotnination
of a majority to the religion of a immirity: All these things
had excited hitter aninersi ties :but these aisitti,sities haw,
and they belong to a condition of
oa,sed and are exti,igoidied, uith some differences. There
this bill is designed torernerly. In Irela id, tie
still remains some defects,
things which
,O half a century ago, the land was not held in the way i ,
which piett in Englend and 'Scotland. Lamle that
country
it isv Icc
try%erieleut td o person, who sublet them to one m
more persons, who sublettel thew again, and thtte by 2 or
3 gradations middle men were interposed between the
landlord and the occarrier. Then what Wee the tcnn,e of
Sears, err three lives. The
the land in Irehnd? The leases were imt first given at a
tilemergmt:ltt s—trfaerrig6eir on his own estate, and he had
llawneArloosrtc,le Iwo uass
no interest in the occupying tenant, amid the occupying
tenant had no affection for him. There was, in fact, no
person interested in the hiproverne»t of the country.
Why should the landlord see to the improvement of the
land ? Why should the middle man ? Why should the oc-
cupying tenant, who was too poor to do so? Therefore, the
greater part of Ireland was in that condition, that there
were no persons Connected with time ownership Hho were
interested iu the improvement of the estates. When these
long leases expired the landlords went to the other ex-