The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-17 00:00:00

SOLDIERS' KNAPSACKS.

Mr. BERESFORD asked the Under Secretary for
War whether a knapsack, known as "Brady'. Patent,"
and condemned at Chobhatn•by a committee of officers
commanding regiments, was not authorised by the late
Secretary at War for the use of the militia, and a great
number of them issued accordingly, notwithstanding
that a knapsack of a different pattern was established in
the regular army ?
Mr. PEEL said it was optional with the colonels of
militia regiments to select what knapsack they thought
best suited to their men.

STAMPED ENVELOPES.
Mr. T. DLTNCOMBE asked the Secretary of the
Treasury when it was likely that the public would be
able to obtain stamped sheets of paper and private enve-
lopes for free transmission by post.
Mr. WILSON said instructions had been given to the
Board of Inland Revenue to make the necessary ar-
rangements for issuing stamped paper and envelopes,
and in about two months he expected such arrangement
would be completed. The public would have 101. worth
of stamped paper issued to them for the duty, but par-
ties requiring paper to be stamped -for a less amount,
would have to pay is. beyond the duty.

that, if not so, they yore not led to attach much value to
the education afforded, which was so bad that they cared
not to let their children purtake of it. This was the
most important pert cf the case --that those children who
were sent to school did not receive the proper benefits of
education. And here he turned, with feelings of humilia-
ti to the comparison between the state of education in
this country and in the rest of the civilised world. He
grieved to say that, with the exception of Russia, Spain,
Italy, and the slave states in America, England was at the
botlieni of the scale. In Switzerland there were, in many of
the cantons, 1 in 5 at school ; in Saxony, also lin 5 ; in
the free states of America, 1 in 5 ; in France, 1 in 6 ; in
Wurtembetg, 1 in 6 ; in Prussia, 1 in 6 ; in Denmark, 1 in
7 ; and in England, lin 8 . Bat there was a still greater
contrast in the nature of the systems pursued in these
different countries. In Prussia the course of instruction in
every elementary school comprised-1, religion ; 2, the
German language ; 3,4, 5, the elements of physicial and
ie
nes geography, labour,
arithmetic, &c.; 6, singing; 7
naturalwritin sciences,
8 manual and especially instruction in
agriculture. And religion, reading and writing; arith•
metic and singing, were declared " indispensable." In
Switzerland the course of instruction was-1, religion;
2, reading ; 3, writing ; 4, linear drawing ; 5, geogra-
phy ;6, arithmetic; 7, singing 8, elements of geo-
logy ; 9, history of Switzerland; 10, elements of na-
tural philosophy ; 11, the " Rights and Duties of a
Citizen." In Denmark few children were unable to read
and write. A code of general regulations had been in
operation since 1817, and the condition of education made
constant progress. Parochial schools were everywhere
established. Attendance at them was not optional.
for by a late law all children between the ages of 7 and
19 meet be sent to public schools; and if their parents
were unable to pay the children were educated at the pub-
lic expense. So in Prussia. Tho course of instruction in
Den nark and Prussia included, besides religion and read-
ing and writing, arithmetic, geography, and natural his-
tory. In France, under the system established by M.
Guizot, 1831, elementary schools were everywhere estab-
lished, in which the course of instruction was-1, moral
and religious ; 2, reading ; 3, writing ; 4, arithmetic; 5,
French ; 6, weights and measures ; 7, geography ; 8, his-
tory; 9, linear drawing; 10, singing. Every school wax
divided into classes, according to the capacity of the pupils,
certain portions of Scriptere were committed to memory,
and every Saturday the Gospel for the ensuing Sunday was
read by the pupils. In Germany, including most of the
states in Austria, Wurtemberg, Hesse' Bavaria, &tee regu-
lations were established, requiring that every poor child
be sent to schobl. In Hesse, for instance, public function-
aries every six months saw that all the children above
six years of age were sent to some of the public schools;
and if the parents were unable to pay the fees they were
paid out of the public funds. In Holland no child of ten
years of age could be uninstructed. And in the United
States ho need scarcely say how generally education was
disseminated. (Hear, hear.) How different was the
case in England. According to Mr. Horace Mann, there
were 45,003 soh eels in Et-inland, in which reading was
taught in 93 per cent., writing in 68 per cont., arithmetic
in 61 per cent., grammar in 44 per cent., geography in
39 par cent., music in 10 per cent., industrial occupations
—one of the primary objects of popular schools
—(hear)—only 2 per cent. (dear.) Such was the gene-
ral character of our education. What was the condition
of the Church school., according to the reports of the Na-
tional Society ? Of the Church schools 30 per cent. were
not secured for educational purposes, 47psr cent. wore not
even virtuelly secured ; and so about 50 per cent. were
dame schools, or in cottages, corners of churches, Sze. And
what was the condition of the schools not belonging to the
Church ? Mr. Horace Mann stated that, upon a rough
attempt at classifying them according to their efficiency,
o ily 20 per cent. of the whole could be callel "superior"—
about 5,000 in number. There were 7,003 only "mid-
cdlin;,"
14030 "inferior." Bat the most startling fact
was, that out of these last about 800 of the schoolmasters
or schoolinistrenses were unable to write, and signed their
roterns with marks. (Hear, hear.) So that in 800 of
our schools the masters and mistresses were unable to
write their own names. (Hear, hear.) Thus then it
appeared that not only was the proportion of our poor
children e lucate I much smaller th oe in most of the ceun•
tines of Europe, but the species of instruction afforded in
our schools was most inferior, and quits discreditable, as
compared with that in foreign countries. (Hear.) What was
the deplorable result of this fearful deficiency in education ?
Need he trace the connection between ignorance and crime?
(Hear.) Statistical information upon that subject it was
difficult to obtain; there were indeed complete returns of
convictions at sessions and assizes, but not of summary con-
victions. The only foreign country whose returns of crime
were complete, and with whom we could institute a com-
parison, was Austria. In 1840 the population of England
was 17,000,0000, and the total number of convictions was
60,809. In Austria the pOpulation was 23,600,000, and the
detected crimes amounted to 30,000. Thus, then, while the
population of Austria was six millions and a half more
than ours, the detected crimes in England doubled those of
Austria. In ether words, the crime; in England were as
three to one compared with Austria. Now, Austria was a
very well educated country, and it was curious that the
number of detected crimes appeared greatest in her mining
districts which were leant educated. Let them now look
at the state of some districts in England. And first as to
the metropolis. Take four populous parishes north of the
Thames, and four south of the Thames. In Stepney, St.
George's-in-the-East, Bethnal-green, and Shoreditcb,
there were 358,600 persons, and 44,800 children, of whom
only 19,000 were at school. In Southwark, Bermondsey,
St. Ge'nee ee 's, and Newiugton, there were 304,000 persons
population of more than 660,090), and about 56,000 chil-
dren,(making, with the four parishes first mentioned, a total
of whom about 36,000 wore without education. There
could be, alas ! no difficulty in divining the condition of
these poor children. (Hear.) The report of the inspector
of schools for the western district stated that inDevonshire,
Cornwall, Dorsetshire, and Hampshire, there were thou-
sands of poor children who were not acquainted with
the Lord's Prayer, and hardly knew that there was a
God in heaven ! (Hear.) This, he stated, was the rule and
not the exception amongst the children of those who were
in the habit of receiving parochial relief ; they were in a
state of the most heathenish ignorance. In Newcastle
there was a population of 87,000, including 18,400 children,
and of those the inspector of schools stated that 11,400
were unaccounted for as -regarded education, onlese7,ooo
chiral-ea ' we-Ming schaolse- The same state of things
existed at Gateshead, Hartlepool, Sunderland, and Shields.
So iu the eastern counties. Mr. Mitehell, the inspector,
had lately ascertained from the colonels of seven regiments
of militia lately embodied the state of the men as regarded
education—the Cambridgeshire regiment, the North and
South Essex regiments, the Huntingdon, the East and
West Norfolk, and the East and West Suffolk regiments.
There were 5,6;0 men, of whom only 2,000 could write
their names. (Hear.) The chaplain of the gaol at Worcester
stated that out of 1,100 prisoners4so were totally ignorant;
and he added that a"woeful amount of gross ignorance on
moral and religious subjects existed among the great ma-
jority of cases brought under his notice." The excellent
chaplain of Preston gaol (the Rev. Mr. Clay) stated that in
three years the performance of his duties had brought him-
into contact with 1,700 men and boys, and 387 womenand
girls, altogether unable to read ; and 1,300 men and boys,
and 280 women and girls, ,who did not know the name of
the reigningen and 1,290 men and boys, and 290
women Clid not know the meaning of such
the e,rweihgon
terms as vice and virtue, iniquity or holineis. In 1849 that
gentleman stated that there were about 2,000 persons com-
mittee
ignorantplie whom mce4nBt cent,.opferthe
ignorant
Saviour'sow fe rteh enunanmaa
name
ee andotof
tomhf read,cunt,iettht'd4uLletooporned,tr'h6B2P gpra'eYor roe: t, unacquainted with the meaning of
virtue or vice, and 19 per cent. were unable to count up to
100. There was a similar report for IE4B ; and the rev.
gentlemen assured him that his statements were rather
ofw a careful a
ar fduil. personaluifulas t
w as
under the mark, and could be safely relied on as the result
s
vv. gee oa nre)
apt
ts
to st r
but
twoi
ft observation.houh:oli
things was disgraceful to the country. (Hear, hear.) It
risrngosrrtai disgraceful,
veuhfSt
uei uolnas he
Surely
and he
contemplated
huodenc such
(eosmai
tp.
fancyls
„Tat ta.
et
pdte
that
ioai
tctf:
ourselvesexample ttehoatthiefronuartaiorimisy .
wAaslintto large
little while
our military system was perfect. That dream had been
a agoat least
we
lately rather roughly disturbed. (Hear.) Let us take heed
flwaetsteet re d an
lest in other matters of great weight and moment, instead'
of setting an example to other nations, we become their
warning or their laughingastock. He repeated, what
could be more disgraceful, either to the country or to the
House of Commons than that such a state of things should
exist all around us. Were they to bear with it ? Were
they to say, " We are doing better every year ; we have
liberal grants and an active Committee of Privy Council,
and let us be content 9"
• Was it consistent with our duty
to be content with such a state of things? No, sir -(ex-
claimed the right hon. baronet with energy). At least I,
for one, will not be content. (Cheers.) And, however
inadequate I may be for the task I have undertaken, I
will venture to say that if the House of Commons allows
such a state of things to continue it will neglect one of its
first duties as a Christian legislature. (Hear.) Sir, such
a state of things is worse than barbarism. ( Hear.) The
rev. gentleman whose report I last referred to most truly
uses that expression. He states, that out of the 2,000
prisoners of whom he spoke, 1,300 did not know the
names of the months of the year, and 800 had never heard
the name of the Saviour ! Most justly does he say that
their sate is worse than barbarism. It is ignorance, gross
and dense, of all matters, secular or religious. It is ig-
norance of everything Which can
make them worthy
of
the name of human beings. But, I repeat, it is worse
than barbarous, for these unhappy outcasts, while they
are thus ignorant of the name of the Saviour, or the
existence of a God, are conversant with every form of
vice, and familiar with crime of every kind. (Hear,
hear.) Yes, they are steeped in debauchery, hardened in
iniquity—(hear, hear)—and for these wretched beings you'
pass stringent laws, and if they transgress them punish
them severely, not reflecting if they are really morally
responsible for their actions, in the dense ignorance in
which we allow them to remain, from our neglect of our
paramount duty as a Christian legislature. (Hear, hear.)
I am told, indeed, that this is au act for whish there can
be no remedy. Why ? because some of us are Churchmen,
and will insist upon teaching the Catechism_
; and others are
Dissenters, and will not revere creeds. Sir, I should like
to know what these distinctions between Churchmen and
Dissenters signify to those thousands of miserable beings
who aro ignorant of the primary truths of Christianity ?
(Hear.) I ask whether it is not a mockery to speak or think
of such distinctions upon such a question ? (Hear, hear.)
Is it not time anxiously and earnestly to consider, is there
'no middle term, no neutral ground, upon which Church-
men and Dissenters may meet, remembering the great car-
dinal doctrineeof Christianity on which we agree, thinking
more of them than of the points (comparatively unim-
portant) of Government and discipline on which we differ?
(Hear, hear.) Ido not ask Churchmen to relinquish creeds
and catechisms, I am a Churchman myself, and I will not
consent to forego them. Neither do I ask Dissenters to
accept anything they object to. But I implore them all
alike—Churchmen mid Dissenters—to reflect on this dread-
ful state of things which I have described, and to meet, or
to endeavour to meet, in a spirit of toleration and forbear-
ance, and consider if the time has not come when some
means should be adopted by which we may teach these
miserable beings to whom I • have referred their duty to
God and man. (Hear.) He would now state the nature
of the measure which he had to propose. (Hear, hear.)
He did so with the greatest diffidence, knowing the
difficulty of the question, and ho did it in no party
spirit and for no party purpose ; on the contrary,
persuaded that if the subject were involved in the
struggles of party it would never be settled, and his
anxiety was to induce men of all parties to combine in the
hope of solving this difficult question, and releasing the
country from so disgraceful a state of things. (Hear, hear.)
Tho first point he had to notice in his measure was one of
doubt; it was intended to be only permissive. He was
not fond of permissive
legislation, and knew of many in-
stanceswhich it had not conduced to the public welfare.
Betho ' ne
know the anncultv of the snlject ; and in his pp.
• • . .1 n. • ;•,- •c: !.

:..: ~, ~-

ilc L Lvi-(31.1 vi ;ol'
pnrpos.es of clucaticn to the present system of poor law
rolief, which had worked well, and, in his opinion, was
applicable to the object he had in view. The noblest page
in ohr statute-book was that which enacted that no man

THE SUN, LONDON SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH i 7 1855.

should be destitute; and he desired to add a still nobler
page. to that book, providing that no man should be ig-
norant. (Hear, thea,r.) The areas within which he pro-
posed that the measure should operate were in corporate
towns the limits of the municipal corporations, and in
country districts the poor-law unions. He proposed that
in the poor-law unions it should be optional to the rate-
payers to decide whether tney would adopt the act, pur-
suing in this respect the precedent of the Public Libraries
Act of a recent session. If it be adopted, then I propose
to elect an educational board, to be chosen by the rate-
payers at large ; that the management shall be placed in
the hands of be lies popularly elected, following the plan
pursued in the United States. But, it being most desir-
able that man of the highest education and position shall
bo members of the board, I propose that the qualification
shall be a retirg of 301. per annum, and that all the magis-
trates of the district shall be ox-officio members. (Hear,
hear.) When the board is elected it shall have power to
provide schools where they think them necessary ; to su-
perintend the general education of the district, to levy the
rate for the purpose of maintaining the schools, and expend
it. Sir, this brings me to the voluntary principle. (Hear,
hear.) I have thought much upon that subject, and the
more we consider it, the grouter, I think, must be our
general conviction' that on the voluntary system we Can-
deatiidemoryuoti
passesye,aittelr et t,aitclisacoetot,noinhe
the
e(ewtHl
eepeople. (Hoar, hear) I believe we can
no more educate the people on the voluntary principle
as they ought to be educated, than that we can carry on a
war or any other great enterprise by means of taxes volun-
r9e,
voluntaryvnhi
oel
tae rn evidence
principle.e
receive G
that ov
be begging-letters
the
gmei
ne
ugn -tul
peopleet t inspectorstesri
rsfaon,hardlyn ao It eas
assist-
ance. aea.
mace. (Hear, hoar.) I have in my hand a letter from a
gentleman in the Eldon district in Sheffield, in which he
says :
" I beg leave to inform you that having been appointed
to the newly-formed district of Eldon, Sheffield, containing
a population of 5,000 souls, I built a church, which was con-
secrated in June, 1841, but it is still without a tower, and lo-
have no schools built for the accommodation of the young
Chartism and infidelity avow in all directions their danger,-
ous principles. (A laugh.) The young grow up in ignorance
and vice. The temptations of a large manufacturing town
are felt in numb Tless ways. Under these circumstances I
am anxious to complete the work I have begun, and to raise
a school for the reception of daily and Sunday scholars ; but
local resources are few and scanty."
Sir, I say the local resources ought not to be few and
scanty. (Hear, hear.) I say that this district ought to pro-
vide schools without sending a bagging-letter for the pur-
pose. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. Mr. Kennedy, one of the,
school inspectors, says, " Everything seems to point to
rate for education, for a want of proper funds leads to in-
efficient teaching" auleth sr evils. In 1852, the same
gentleman thus sums up his views :
There aro 10 propositions on the subject which my ob-
gseeti•iev:,i.atilonarleealdjost mate
thist atffiimrem
being alEleegmueaititealyrynlsacihnotaoilusedih
2, There is not a fair prospect, on the present system, that
they will have a sufficient annual income. • 3. On the con-
trary, there is in a majority of places a decline of income.
4. The endeavours to obtain yearly contributions to schools
are harrassiug and vexatious, and the m-ans sometimes re-
sorted to for raising funds, such as high fees and scales of
fees, are injurious to the schools. 5. There is a painful and
injurious uncertainty about the efficient maintenance of
schools, also pernicious fluctuations of income, arising from
such causes as the death of a benevolent landed proprietor, or
of a lib sal mill-owner, or the loss of a goad !master, undoing
in a moment the work of years, and causing flourishing schools
to fall into decay. 6. Many districts are absolutely unable
from poverty to maintain good schools without extraneous
annual aid. 7. In districts where there is no absolute defi-
ciency of money, or even where there is wealth, the schools
are often suffered to languish from parsimony, or from in-
difference, and from hostility to education. 8. It is desirable
to abate the jealousies and ill-feeling often at present engen-
dered among different religious denominations by contests for
subscriptions to schools, eze., and to enable every deserving
school to have an independent income. 9. It is often very
desirable, but not feasible through want of means, to admit
some of the scholars free to school ; and, iu some cases,
wholly free schools are requisite. 10. The above-named evils
cannot be remedied, nor the wants supplied, by other means
than by a vote for education."

But I have other testimony from iespectors of schools,
showing that we cannot go on as we are. The voluntary
system is breaking down, and the only legitimate mode of
providing education for the people is by calling on them to
contribute a rate for the purpose. (Hear.) But I think
these rates should be assisted by public grants fron the
Consolidated Fund, and that the whole burden ought net
to be thrown os the local rate. (Hear.) Therefore, in
every case where the locality is called upon to provide a
certain amount by rates, the public funds of the country
shall contribute in a fixed proportion. (Hear.) And this
proposal is perfectly consistent with the course at present
pursued. (Hear.) Sir, I feel that the next proposal I
shall have to make may, more than any other, give rise to
a difference of opinion ; bat the most anxious study I
could give to the question has convinced me that the edu-
cation of the country ought to be free. (Hear.) I pro-
pose, then,- that all new schools shall be free schools, and
that whenever scholars are sent by the board to existing
schools there shall be no charge for their education. (Hear.)
I am well aware that upon this point a difference of opinion
may exist ; but I think one of the weakest of the argu-
ments of those who contend that education ought not to
be free, is, that the poor do not value education unless they
pay for it. (Hear.) This argument I hold to be incon-
sistent with human nature ; for a man is glad to get a good
thing for nothing if he can. The error arises, I believe,
from the fact—first, that we only know free education in
this country as connected with endowed schools, the edu-
cation in a greater part of which is of an inferior quality;
and, secondly, that the population confound education so
conducted with pauperism. (Hear.) But the education
of the poor relates not only to the individual himself ; it
relates to the interest of the state—(hear)—and in this
view every example and precedent leads me to the convic-
tion that a free education is the best. Let us look to what
has occurred in America in connection with this very ques-
tion of free education. In Philadelphia, in 1835, there
were 9,346 scholars in free schools, because those schools
were inferior ; but the result of reforming them was that
private schools became almost superseded; and in 1845,
instead of 9,316, there were 36,665 free scholars in Phila-
delphia; while in 1852 the number had risen to 49,635.
This occurred on depriving the schools of their panper, cha-
racter, and showed that immediately they were thrown
open to all classes gratuitously, the objection that the
people cared little for that for which they did not pay was
triumphantly met. In New York the question of free and
non-free schools was also the subject of great discussion
and division of opinion ; but the people of New York de-
cided, by an overwhelming majority, that the schools
should be free ; and there are 700,000 scholars at this time
deriving the benefit of a free education, or one in five of
the whole population. (Hear, hear.) In Austria and
Holland the education is entirely free ; and I believe
that if you make education free in this country you
will promote its interests, and that the whole system
will be a better and sounder one than if you persevere in
taking the existing school pence from the scholars. In
the countries where the free system does not prevail
those who are poor are allowed to attend free ; but it
would be difficult in this country to test who is and who
is not able to pay, and the soundest plan will, therefore,
be to decide that education shall be free. This proposal,
however, is not essential to my bill, and I throw it out for
the consideration of the house. Sir, another, and, as I
think, an important element in my bill, is that it does not
interfere with existing schools or with existing interests.
(Hear, hear.) We must not loafs sight of what education
has effected, of the exertions of benevolence, or of the fact
that in a great many instances the education is good. But
I wish it to be understood that I interfere with no existing
interests ; but that it shall be optional with every existing
school whether it will or will not come in union. If it do
not come within the union it will remain precisely where
it now is ; but if it come into the union, I shall respect
every existing-school, on the condition, however, that the
school shall be periodically inspected, and that they shall
submit to the provisions of the act with respect to religi-
ous teaching. Tho question of religious teaching, I feel to be
the most important of all, and the one most surrounded
with difficulty; but I venture to ask the house whether
the dreadful state of things I have portrayed does not de-
mand that we should approach this religious difficulty in
the spirit of forbsaranca and moderation. There are two
pasties in this country—the one to which I myself belong,
insisting on the imperative necessity of religious teaching ;
the other insissin,g on the secular system. I confess, sir, I
cannot understand what the secular system is. Ido not
understand whotherthe subject of religion is to be banished
altogether, or that the Scriptures only shall be road and
doctrinal teaching be reserved for separate training. But I
ask the advocates of the secular system, first, to consider
the fact of our our has ing an Established Church ; and,
secondly, that the immense majority of the people of this
country are attached to that Church. (No, no, from
Mr. Hadfield and the Nonconformists, and counter
cheers.) Sir, I approach this subject with the most
dispassionate intentions, the most disinterested ob-
jects. (Hear, hear.) I know it is a question whether
the aggregate of Churchmen do or do not prepon-
derate over dissenters, and that turns on the omission in
the census to classify large numbers of the people—(hear)
—but no one will deny that the Church is in an overwhelm.
ing majority as compared with any other denomination.
Mr. Horace Mann gives a census of the actual proportion
of the schools of the Church and of dissenters.
_ Mr. HADFIELD—Day schools.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Yes ; and I find the total of day
schools of the religious bodies to be 12,700 ; and the day
schools of the Church, 10,555 ; Independents, 453 ; Roman
Catholics, 339 ; and Wesleyan., 381. We have, then,
10,555 schools in connection with the Church of England
as compared with 12,700 of the various religious bodies.
But, sir, we must net only consider the Established Church,
but the feeling of the country. (Hear, hear.) Assuming
for the moment the secular system to be the best, I believe
that if you attempted to force it on the people of this coun-
try they would reject it. (Hear.). I maintain that the feel-
ing of England is against the secular system, and that you
ought to teach religion in your schools. The question then
arises how to secure religious teaching, and reconcile it
with the most scrupulous regard for the conscientious feel-
ings and opinions of dissenters. (Hear, hear.) The plan
I would venture to propose is, that schools in connection
with every denomination recognised by the Committee of
Council—whether Baptist, Presbyterian, or anything else—
shall be equally entitled to claim the benefit of this act; but
subject to this indispensable condition, that no child shall
be excluded from any school on account of its religious
views. This I would apply equally to the Church and
the dissenters. With regard to supplying educational defi-
ciencies by the creation of new schools, I have been told
that my measure would have been better had I struck out
this part of my proposal ; but, looking at the present state
of education in this country, I think every plan would be
incomplete which would not provide for new schools,
My proposal is, that the religious teaching of such schools
shall be in accordance with the religious feeling of the dis-
trict in which they aro situated ; that if a majorily, of a
district is in favour of the teaching of the Church, it shall
be taught—subject to the condition that Dissenters shall
not be excluded from the schools ; but if the religious ma-
jority of that district entertain another belief, then that
ceived into the school. The hon. member for Manchester
tthhee
ssacmhoeolrushleasl I
i
a
(Mr. Bright), in a speech at Manchester, at the commence-
ment hbaet anl ICc hour dr
cahn e se c hwo il
at lir
s lath' Clint dbj subject
rt :-
meat of last year, had admitted the importance of teach-
ing religion to the children. He said—
" He could not see any connection necessarily between re-
ligion and arithmetic, for example, or between the doctrines
of Christianity and any of those other matters which formed
the ordinary branches of education. He admitted, of course,
that if a man was thoroughly educated—and, speaking iu a
Christian country, he might add, if ho was a complete Chris-
tian man—he must not only have that instruction which was
to be obtained in the ordinary routine of schools, but he
inset also have, from some ssui:ce or other, a traini, and

,
established in America, which everybody applauded, which means now at their disposal, and ,he was satisfied that at
all persons sub:n tted to with probably greater satisfaction present no system would be successful which. was not, to a
than they subscribed any other state impost whatever, could certain extent, a denominational system. Wear, hear.)
not be transplanted into our own towns?" Assuming, then, the two principles of State interference
The opinions of the hon. member for Manchester were-- and religious teaching, it-remained to be seem what were
first, that religion should be taught; and secondly, that it the other requisites for an efficient educational ernes,
ought to be tauclit upon the American system. Well, I sure. He thought there were two others. They souse
ask hon. members, in the spirit of candour and fairness, to have a full recognition of, and a satisfactory moans of in-
say whether they really thought that the American sys_ eluding, the schools now in existence. He did not believe
tem could be adopted in this country? I think I can that any scheme would work which undertook to remodel
show the house that it would be utterly impossible. In the whole.educational system de novo, and excluded or re-
America there was no one creed predominant. Let me re- fused to recognise existing schools. He was quite aware
mind the house of the mode and manner in which religion of the inefficiency of the existing means of education ' • he
is taught in America. Mr. Twissolton, an able and dis- knew that our schools were insufficient in number and in.
tinguished gentleman, in his work upon the system of re- adequate in the quality of the teaching they ailerded, but
ligious teaching in the state of Massachusetts, states the still they gave instruction after their manner to a large
following facts :—This gentleman saes he addressed a cer- portion of the population, and many persons took an in.
tain number of questions to the heads of the schools in the torest in them, and any scheme for sweeping them away
United States. He asked what the system of religion was Would meet with such opposition that it could not pass
that was taught and how it had worked, and was informed through Parliament. His right hon. friend's bill allowed
that the children received all distinct teaching according these schools to stand aloof—it was a permissive, not a com-
pulsory measure. It per
mittedthemto joinon t wo reasonable
to their religions tenets. Then comes the question, " How
do they get it ?" The answer given is, " they are taught it at and
almost
Gd soivi nenpr
nel eemeconditions.i
.)Trihneefiiprlset,otfhaatGoolvinerspnemeetniotng,rfaonllto,wfo?,
home." Now, let me ask the gentlemen who advocate the
kftamorilys,inthewpheart
introduction of the American system into this country to
somnsanwnheaorssistatico to a school from any public
say whether they are prepared to trust the teaching of
ga
ha ctto
theyhlinaottri:o. 1 awf
friend
ink
dti
expended.nodget Lst\ oihr
,es
,ed
to a n
Thes o u
other h t t o
religion to the children of England to their parents at home ?
condition which his right
What do they suppose is the home of those thousands to
assiitsted schools optional, not compulsory.
whom I have referred—those thousands who have never inniogreinimallposrttaatnet---
inlpsoteseawchm-
heard the name of our Savour, and who scarcely know of
the existence of a God ? Do not compare the state of a He believed it was only by moans of such a permission that
young country dike America, where there is a population the existence of denominational schools, supported by the
so scanty and wealth so abundant, where poverty was al- State, could be reconciled with common justice towards the
most unknown, with the state of things in England, where various schools at present in existence. A purely denomi.
we had a dense and pauper population whose education national system would necessarily be productive of great
has been long neglected. (Hear, hear.) I have shown you unfairness towards those sects which, being small and scat-
that in all the countries of Europe religion was wisely put tared, could not establish schools of their own, and in
in front, and the first item in the educational code of all order, therefore, to do justice towards suck religions
Christrian Countries was religion. How then is religion to communities, it was not enough to give them the means
be taught in England ? Will you contend that in a popu- of establishing schools of their own ; but they must also
lation so debased, so ignorant, and so irreligious as unhap- have legislative permission for the children belonging to
pily exist amongst us, the wretched parents can or will them to frequent thewchools established by public grants
teach their children as much religion as they ought te without being required to attend religious teaching.
know ? In Day opinion if religion be not taught in schools Although he had listened with interest te his right lion.
it will not be taught at all. Well, in support of the sys- friend's statement upon this point, he was not quite
tern I propose, lam fortified by the examples both of Pro. sure how far he meant to go, but lie was sure that this
testant and Roman Catholic countries. First, I will quote scheme could not be worked out unless it were broadly
Austria, in respect to which I find this account given of laid down thatattendance upon all religious teachingshould
the mode in which the difficulty of religious' teaching is be optional with the parents of the children. He did not
met : understand how there could be any objection to such a pro-
•" The Roman Catholic as the national religion is that visior. He could understand and respect the feelings
taught in the schools of Austria ; but dissenters from this of a man who claimed religions equality, but he could not
form of faith are neither excluded nor separated, nor are they understand the feelings of those who ,laid they would not
required to engage in the religious services or peculiar eccle-
allow the children of other sects to go to their schools un-
siastical learning in these schools. In the Romaa Catholic lesa they were permitted to force their own religious
mteach-
schools the Jews, as well as the Protestants and other dis- ing upon those children.
missive provision would He
meetwithmuch had no doubt theasittitobo from
other arrive one hour after and leave one hour before the
various quarters, as it would neither satisfy those who de-
other pupils, these two hours being occupied with religious
services and instruction, such as was attempted in this coun- sired an absolutely non-sectarian system, noT those who
try some years ago. There are other non-Catholic schools , desired a purely denominational system; but the principle
particularly in Transylvania and the .military frontier, Gal: upon which it was founded was analogous to that which
licia, Moravia, and Silesia, tioh-imia, and Corynthia, amount. had been established 24: years agoerend had since worked
ing to 2,037 primary schools, whose religious instruction is in so successfully in Ireland That part of his eight hen.
accordance with the creed of these countries, the oversight of
necessityfrieriels measure in in which he proposed the establish-
ment of new schools seemed to him open to serious
which is committed to the clergy of each particular denome
objection. (Hear, hear.) He was not ignore nt. of the
srechlioyoiolsu,satnetalchh9
nation."
existed for the establishment of those
In Austria, then, you have the system established which
I venture to suggest for adoption in England—viz., teach-
fairest and most equitable admitted that the plan of having the
ing the religion of the majority of the place ; but at the
thatsettled
üblydt
beh atimajorityopt‘e d , was
but the
- au experiment which would excite a
tehreoautghdteatlhoaft iatn‘gvry feeling,. and not be likely to succeed.
same time showing the most perfect toleration to all others.
In Switzerland how do they act?
But this was simply an adttnentcortahipeibinilelipeihe.se'
" In the majority of these schools the members of the dif-
Hb em thoughtight b e
ferent religious sects are received with a willingness and with
removed, in no way affecting ' '
the measure didall that co uld b:expected in the way of reco
a Christian charity which puts to shame our religious intoler-
ance. .. . . Those who differ in faith from the master of • •
insure and including existing schools, and it aloe affirmed-
,the school are allowed to absent themselves from the doctrinal ei
as far as possible the principle of local self-government.
lessons given in the school, and axe required to attend one of
die thought it of great impoßtance that districts were not their own clergy for the purpose of receiving from him their but only empowered if they thought fit, to avail
doctrinal instruction. Even in Fribourg, a cantos governedcompelled,by Catholic priests who are themselves under the influence of themselves of this bill, because he knew that in many places
the Jesuits, Protestants may be found mingled with' the Ca-
there was a strong feeling entertained against 8 tate inter-
tholics in the schools, and are allowed to alesset themselves Terence in matters of education, and this feelilng mainly
during the hours of religious lessons; and in Argovie, a can• arose out of a dread of centralisation. In this bill three
ton which has lately so distinguished itself by its opposition different provisions were made—they provided for central
to the Jesuits of Lucerne, I found that several of the pro- direction and advice under the Ministerof the Crown; then
fessors in the normal school were Catholics, and that the ut- they provided for assistance from the local public funds ;
most tolerance was manifested to all the Catholics attending and at the same time, while the bill gave important assist-
the cantonal schools."
ance from the-State, it in no way discouraged, but rather
"In Prussia every complete elementary school neces-
tended to encourage, the exertions of individuals and of
sarily comprehends the following objects :-1. Religious in- public
bodies throughout the country. The bill also recog-
-a struction as means of forming the moral character of chil-
nised various principles which he believed necessary to a
circa according to the positive truths of Christianity. 2. The successful educational measure ; it recognised the principle
German language. 3. The elements of geometry, together of religious teaching, also that of including existing schools
with the general principles of drawing. 4. Calculation and in the system ; but, above all, it recognised the principle
practical arithmetic. 5. The elements of physics, geography, of local self-government and management. The rest of
general history, and especially the history of Prussia. 6. the bill, though very important, was, comparatively speak-
Singing. 7. Writing. 8. The simplest manual labours, and ing, matter of detail, for the full discussion of which ample
some instructions in husbandry, according to the agriculture opportunity would be afforded. He was very much en-
of the respective parts of the country.
couraged at seeing the little difference in point of principle
that there was between the present bill and that introduced
cc It was long debated in France how the difficulties arising
no from religious differences should be overcome—whether they from the other side of the house some time ago. He had
he should attempt to establish separate schools for all the diffe-
doubt that when the noble earl who presided over the
rent sects of Christianity ; whether they should open the board of education should introduce the bill, which was
schools to all these various sects, and banish from them all understood to be in course of preparation, then both that
religious instruction ; or whether they should open the schools bill and the present could be referred to a committee, and
on consideration of the two, he hoped thit they would not
to the different Christian persuasions, and commit the ma -
sties be able to carry an additional measure, but that they
nagement of each to a master chosen from the most numerous
sect in the department or commune of which it was the nowould also'be able to do so by a large majority. (Hear.)
r-
Sir G. GREY said that the house was not called upon
mal or elementary school. . . They (therefore) adopted
to pronounce any decision with regard to the measure
the third alternative, and resolved to place each of the normal
which the right hon. baronet now proposed to introduce -
schools of the different departments, and each of the primary
out he now rose to express, on the part of the Govern.'
chools of the different communes, under the .management of
knent, their cordial assent to the motion before the house,
a teacher selected from the most numerous Christian sect in
the department or commune in which the school was situated. And to say that the right hon. baronet was entitled to
They further arranged that the parents who differed in reli-
great credit for the large, comprehensive, and liberal na-
gion from the master or director of the school should have the tare of the scheme which he had propounded. (Hear,
power of requiring their children to absent themselves dur. hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) ouly wished that he could be
sanguine as to the success of the measure ; but he was
ing the periods of religious instruction. . . . So far from
religious education being overlooked in France, it is constantly sure that this discussion would be extremely useful. With
referred to in the different decrees on the subject of education regard to the bases on which the measure of the right hon.
as of the most deep and momentous importance ; and the re-
gentleman proceeded, he had only to state that they met
with .his concurrence. Reference had been made to statis-
ligious education and moral character of the candidate mas-
ters are strictly examined into before they can receive their tics ; and, without pledging himself to their accuracy, he
brevets de capacite,
believed it was perfectly true that at the present time a
e
enahlin. them. to conduct primary
schools."
largo portion of the children of the lower classes
-re-
Now, I have given you examples of both Protestant calved only a very imperfect education, or none
t all, and that this was a • prolific source of crime.
and Catholic countries in favour of the system—a system ' e
Such a state of --things was not creditable to a
which in them all has been attended with the most
perfect success, and which I venture to advocate. But is Christian and civilised country. Here he must
this principle unknown in England? By no means. It advert to one point which had escaped the notice of
has been tried in England. I have on more than one oc- the right hon. gentleman. In this country we had never
sion drawn attention to the signal success of the laudable yet attempted a compulsory system of education—he meant,
exertions of the present Bishop of Manchester, when at a system which compelled parents, under penalty, to semi
the head of that splendid school called King Edward's their children to school. Schools might be multiplied,
School. (Hear.) In that school no dissenting child had but the evil could not be effectually remedied so long as a
the religious doctrines taught there forced upon him. The large portion of the community was indifferent to the
practical result has been this, that the children of every value of education. Many people would not send their chil-
epaajainrjodg.rytiedo p
°Hsi:::
not
school if feobdttfuhhtwaetythhiteeehhobectuehrl d make a profit of their labour.
religions denomination freely came to participate in the
advantages of that school, and religious dissension was ut-
mei ea
right
i egpudhrnteti I ipthyeaortneu: ingt tei
would °ln it tlrewen attemptamaasania it in
attempted
llcpe odt nekn't
.1 ..
.-
terly unknown there. (Hear, hear.) At the present mo-
ment the same system was going on there and prospering,
ing that the voluntary system had failed to accomplish the
Well, I ask what reason can be given against the intro-
oh.baojde ento.stttee intended.
eioabi: toI
keep
heapd
pace
oode doubt dtohnee much
in
pi
obpuut I
a it_
daction of such a system generally into this country which
has been found to work so advantageously in the other
creagsoer
countries I have mentioned? It seems to me that if hon.
toitutityoras
to
°the isle ofapplying the money raised for the
believed that there would be diffi-
gentlemen will only approach the subject in the spirit of
candour and fairness, there is no difficulty in it which can-
educeition but he thought'
purposes of , that the scheme of
Rot be easily surmounted. Even the large number of
educational boards was one as good as could be frames!.
upon connected with the National Society do not insist
that in the 'country d. • flied*
He was afraid districts the permissive
upon the teaching of the Church Catechism in the case of
Dissenting childten. I, therefore, submit to the house, nature of the measure might render the proposed system
looking to the precedents of other countries, and the diffi-
of little real benefit. He agreed that it would be impose
culties of the subject in this country, that thisi is the. true sible to anticipate suctess in any plan of general education
solution of those difficulties. I will no longer detain the unless there was in some way engrafted :upon it assistance
house. I have now explained the whole of the grounds to existing schools. With regard to new schools, the dife
upon which I think it is the imperative duty of Parlia- densities would be very great. They Were, he concluded
meat to legislate upon this subject. This bill may be nn. frosts the statement of the right hon. baronet, to be schools
successful in passing through this house, but I feel the in accordance with'the religious view's of the majority of
deepest conviction that the importance of the question will the inhabitants in the particular district. In the country
be increased more and more, and that ere long it must be districts the majority would belong to the Established
settled upon a principle to the one I now submit. Sir, I Church, and, in that case,was no provision to be made
am willing to incur the risk of failure upon a question of for the education of the hildren of those who dissented
such importance. (Hear.) lam confident that even from the Church? The amount of the proposed rate was not
amongst my own friends I will be told that I have gone stated. (Sir .L Pakineton—The maximum would be Gd.)
too far—Churchmen may say that I concede too much, He (Sir G, Grey) fully agreed that the general feeling of the
while Dissenters will, perhaps, say that I do not go far country was that religion should be connected with any sys.
enough. Well, I have endeavoured, with a siulgeoninded tem of national education. This fact, he believed, had been
object, to deal with the question in a spirit of fairness and sufficiently proved in the debates on the Manchester and
justice to all classes and creeds; and in this spirit I DOW' Salford Bill. The supporters of that measure were of
ask for leave to introduce this bill. Be its fate what it opinion that children should receive religiousinstruction
may, be its consequences to myself what it may, I shall when they were not at school. There was, therefore, no
still possess great satisfaction in knowing that I have irreconcileable difference between the views of the right
always endeavoured to make my contribution to a subject hon. baronet and of those who were the advocates of what
upon which I conscientiously believe that the welfare, was termed the secular system. The only objection which
the character, and the happiness of this country de- he should have to referring the bill to a committee was,
pende. (Cheers.) that they might be travelling over the same ground which.
The SPEAKER having put the question, they had investigated when the Manchester and Salford.
Mr. HADFIELD opposed the bill. After referring to Bill was before the house, and thus there might be an in-
the progress which education had made within the last few definite postponement of legislation on the subject. He
years, he proceeded to advocate the importance of estab• trusted that the right hon. baronet would not press the se-
c
lishing Sunday schools in preference to day schools ; be- road reading of his bill before Easter, and that when the
house came Wits consideration in detail, it would do so with.cause the difficulty of getting children to attend day schools
was so great that he did not believe that the number of a determination to accelerate the progress of education in,
-
scholars would be greatly augmented if day schools were this country. It had been said that pupil-teachers re
much increased. He believed that it was the common de-
calved so high an education that they left the business of
teaching to engage in other callings. He said that they
sire of persons of all creeds to promote the course of educe teaching
but he was convinced that the object could never be should endeavour to elevate the edneafion of the teachers,
and to make their occupation more worth theft. while by
accomplished by rates and taxes. There could be no real h .) It had also
success unless the voluntary system was adopted, and he giving them higher salaries.
the committee
(ll"t' of council had
cation, would only retard progress and damage existing __
believed that compulsory rates, so far from assisting edu-
been said that the grants, of
not been fairly administered amongst yes poorer classes.
stS . that in p
institutions. He was afraid that neither this bill nor that He found from a Parliamentary return italfields
of the noble lord the member for London would meet
there had been grants amounting to 7x01; ;-'ll3. . George's-
'
the epprobation of the country. with
in-the East, grants amounting to 2,800/. ;in St. Mary's,
Lord STANLEY said, it would be equally difficult
Totbill-fields, grants amounting to 1,:3501.; in White-
chapel, grants amounting to 1,060; and in the different
and superfluous for him to follow his right hon. friend districts of Bethnal-green, grants amounting to 9,0621.
through the vast variety of important details which he had (Rear, hear.) He merely now would add that he gave his
discussed, but he wished to takethis the earliest opportu- most cordial assent to the introduction of the bill, and
. ,
that he hoped it would tend to advance the, cause of edn-
nity of expressing in the strongest and most decided man-
cation in this country. (Hear, hear.)
ner his approval of and adhesion to the general principles Lord. R. CECIL condemned the bill as not differing ape
upon which his right hon. friend had attempted to settle preciably from the secular system, and challenged the,
this question. The present time was most eminently fa- fairness of the right hon. baronet's statistics. -
vourable for the settlement of this controversy; the state of Mr. W. J. FOX cordially re-echoed the sentiment
that the advocates ofall of
the right hon. baronet,
feeling was different in many respects from what it had
ferent schemes should endeavour to approximate to each
been a few years ago, and there was upon all sides a grow- other, and to concede all that was possible for the sake of
ing desire to effect some compromise and to make some obtaining some general scheme. In that spirit he was
sacrifice in order to come to a practical arrangement. Some willing to consider the bill now brought before the house,
theories which were very current *few years ago had been and he regretted that the noble lord who last spoke had
fully and frequently discussed, end after discussion had not done the same. One feature in this bill he particu-
teen condemned by a majority both in Parliament and in larly admired—that all the schools were to be free; and
the country. For instance, the voluntary system a few if the great masters made education a condition of e
m'-
years ago was much more popular than at present; he ployment, it would act as sort of moral compulsion upon
would not enter into the question of principle with regard parents to have their children educated. He defended the
to that system, but he was considering how far it could principles of the secular system, but he would not allow
ctically be adopted, and he thought it was impossi- his
prapreference of that system to stand iu the way of a can-
did and even ,-,
grateful consideration of the hon. baronet's
from every section of the house, without seeing that bill.
the purely voluntary system was now supported by a very Mr. M. GIBSONaIso agreed with much that was its
p
small minority. The hon. member for Oldham (Mr. Pole), the bill. The feared, was that in every
in 1852, introduced with great ability an education b'll school
or other was to be
taught.
supported by rates some religion
founded on the secular system ; a measure had, also beenreligious people of this
aught. He was sure the sincerely
introduced by the noble lord the Colonial Secretary ; and t all sorts of religion out
now another one had been brought forward by his right country would not agree teowsouppor
would far rather leave religion
hon, friend, all of them, although differing in other re- of rates, and
separatethereforeh
hours and by different teachers ;
spects, recognizing the priociple of State interference,to be taught in
rtunity of giving notice that be would. and he took this opportunity.
which principle had, therefore, inhis opinion been adoptedday move for leave to bring in a bill for free
, on an early
by a majority of the house. (Hear.) They had secular system, se that the house •
for all schools en the might
practical purposes got rid of the purely voluntary theory. all the schemes before them. together.
Next carne the purely secular _ ary have a
principle. This,again, he Mr. ADDERLEY preferred this bill to Lord
John
would argue upon the ground of principle,
and, although Russell's.
strong feelings were entertained • - PALMERSTON—I am sure the
with respect to it, he Lord house is greatly
must say that he seen so much of the •' d indebted to the right hon. hart. for the most interesting-
mischief which had mos and
been done to our labouring population by the gross and able speech with which he prefaced his motion, showing, as
utter igncrance in which they had been left, that lie s itdid, that he had given his powerful and vigorous' •g'
was
prepared to support almost any feasible plan that would the investigation of one of the most interesting and impor-
give them the elements of knowledge, or at least enable tent subjects to which a public man can devote his atten-
them to acquire knowledge themselves. (Hear, hear.) tion. With regard to the measure he proposed, until it is
He believed, however, that in the present state of feeling laid before the house, and we have seen the details printed,
in this country the secular system was one which it would I think it would be premature to express any decided opi.
be utterly impossible to carry out. In the first place, it nion upon the comparative merits of the scheme of the
would be opposed by the clergy of all denominations, num• right hon. bast. and that of my noble friend the member
bering in England and Wales alone, 15,003 able, active, for the City of Louder. And here I may remark that I
and educated men, exercising great influence iu their re- think, in truth, some of the observations of the hon. gen-
era-U.lloe lee The
.f„,,H,43 of the. gicat.mass of the 4 tieuian 'Who last addressecl the house o: the bill of my
.“ •- ---hichcli,l stol Include some I n-' , - • ,
wilo friend, rather anticip,e,rt itlialle tLiseussiorts, and
v- ' ' '''-' '-. -0. ' 2`l-'' ''.'"'" • :--:;‘11g oi 1.,;i,j0u laity wup also `pinata s._ke.. ~
who thought''
and the teae'uin, of those things as regarded the place at ' mixture of religious teaching. home persons_
ere ominational system was the best would be occasion. It
they
were ' the teacher
taught or by whom they were taught." 1 that a non-den
securing it, to wait 1.5 or 20 I on' is tree,of-some hon.
"
willing, for the sake of . yeses that there is a great want more efficient system
In a subsequent part of his speech the hon, member says-- i until a change tdoleplace in the feeling of the country, but
;for the education of the lower classes. I cannot, however,
1‘ The
Vgdicin was,
why was it theft ' ontelii which Nite that Was not pia view, He was willing to work with till) help twig that 14 awn kin, ho kie e_imti__geratod
tht
- - ,