The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, L(I N.D .7.:. Otti)AT LV NIN .^ STAY 4 IPet.

Mei t, he animadverted a ith :eerie severity upon the con-
du, t of Sir Jug; M Neill, the chairman of the Board of
Supervision, with relation to aca e in Glenelg. He
thought he need make no apology for asking the house
to read his bill a second time. The hill proposed that
inspectors of character and position should be appointed
to superintend the local a iministrarien of the Scotch
Poor-law, having analogous powers with those exercised
by the Poor-law inspectors in England They should
be personally wholly Independent of the Board of Super-
vision, and only subject to it as regarded instructions as
to the way they should perform their duty. It was the
object of the bill to secure a regular visitation of the
different parishes, a month's notice being given of
the visits of the inspectors, who would have power
to call for documents and examine persons on
oath. He did not desire that any special power
should be given them, but only that they should
satisfy themselves of what was going nn in the different
parishes, and make reports to the central board, which
might then interfere if necessary. As a check on the
central board, he proposed that abstracts of the reports
of the inspectors should be made to Parliament. The
duty of the inspector-, would be not to interfere with the
extsLing law, but to see theta was properly administered
in districts removed from the influence of public opinion.
He proposed that these inspectors should be appointed
not by the central board of supervision—for such an ar
rangement would he useless after what had taken place
—but by the Home Secretary. He understood that the
Lord Advocate intended to oppose this bill, but if the
learned lord would suggest any other course—if he
would promise him a committee before which he could
prove his case, he should be content. His only wish
was to see justice done, and so long as the case was net
evaded he should not complain. All the statements
which he had made to-night were contained in printed
papers lying on the table cf the house, and they could
not, therefore, be got rid of. In the face of such a state of
things, he could not conceive that any Government
would expose itself to the odium of standing by idle, and
he felt convinced that sooner or later something must be
done to remedy the evils which he had described.
The LORD-ADVOCATE said in opposing this bill it
would not be necessary for him to follow his hon. friend
through the details into which he had entered for the
purpose of proving his case. His hon. friend certainly
entertained a very exaggerated idea with regard to the
deficient administration of the Poor Law in Scotland.
(Hear.) He had sat on the Board of Supervision in
Edinburgh for some time as Solicitor-General ; and he
could bear his testimony to the indefatigable zeal and in-
dustry with which Sir John M'Neill had discharged his
arduous duties. As to there being any difficulty in the
way of a pauper appealing to the board, he could assure
his hon. friend that certain hours were devoted to the
consideration of nothing else but these appeals, and that
very frequently cases were remitted more than once to
the parochial boards for their revision, because the cen-
tral board had not felt satisfied with their first decision.
He was far from saying that the Scotch Poor Law was
a perfect system—no Poor Law was, or could be ; but,
considering the difficulties necessarily attending the ques-
tion, it certainly was not desirable to disturb the settle-
ment made in 1845, without very good cause being
shown. His objections to this bill were, first, that it
did not seem to be in the slightest degree required, look-
ing to the powers already existing under the present
act ; and, secondly, that it was not in the least calcu-
lated to produce the effects which his hon. friend seemed
to expect from it. By the llth section of the pre-
sent act, the Secretary of State and the Lord-Advocate;
or either of them, had the power, whenever it seemed
to them necessary, of compelling the Board of Supervi-
sion to appoint inspectors such as the hon. gentleman
proposed to appoint—not being members of the board
—to examine into and report on the administration r f
the Poor-law in any part of the country, and the machi-
nery proposed by the hon. gentleman was perfectly ure
neces:ary. It was unfortunate that there was no direct
representative of the Board of Supervision in the hou-e
to answer the hon. gentleman's speech, though he did
nut think it was open to the strong charges which his
hon. friend bad made against it The board had had an
arduous task to perform, for there were many elements
in Scotland to be taken into consideration—the famine,
for instance, which had occurred owing to the failure
of the potato crop ; the evictions in various parts of
the country, and the peculiar character of the pro-
p e, all of which had ma 'e the administration of the
P. or-law a work of considerable difficulty. In the
case in which he had directed an inquiry be had cer-
tainly disagreed from Sr J. M`Neill's interpretetion of
the law, which was to the effect that, unless a pauper ap-
plied to the inspector for relief, the inspector had no duty
to perform towards him. If Sir J. M`Neill's interpreta-
tion was right, then unquestionably there had been ne
neglect of duty on the part of the inspector in that par
ticular case, but, without doubt, though there was no
application for relief, there was an amount of distress
known to the inspector which he was bound to relieve.
The point, however, was one deserving of very serious
consideration. The machinery proposed by the bill was
too crude to be introduced into the act of 1845 ; but
whether an inspector was or was not beund to relieve
distress and. misery wherever he found it was a point
which called for immediate attention. In the absence
of Sir J. M'Neill be could not pledge the Government to
any particular course, but he hoped his hon. friend
would feel satisfied with having brought this case before
the house, and would withdraw his bill, leaving the ques-
tion in the hands of the Government, to consider what
further course they should take with respect to it.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER congratulated Mr. Ellice on hav-
ing dragged to light a system of abuse and cruelty on the
part of the parish authorities in Scotland which he was
sure would not be tolerated either in England or Ireland.
Some remedy must be found for this state of things ; and
now that the hon. gentleman had done so much to bring
the abuses to light, and as the Lord Advocate admitted
their existence and promised a remedy, he would advie
him to leave the matter in the hands of Government.
Mr. J. E. ELLIOT also advised Mr. Ellice to withdraw
his bill, at the same time that he believed a remedy was
much required, as the abuses referred to by his hon. friend
existed in other parts of Scotland than the Highlands.
Mr. C. BRUCE defended the conduct of the poor las:
inspectors in the Highlands, and quoted from the official
reports several instances of perverse and contumacious
proceedings on the part of the paupers in certain districts.
As one proof of this, he stated that in the parish of
Glenelg pauperism had increased from 1 in 70, which it
was two years ago, to 1 in 15; showing that poor relief
was more attractive to the poor than daily labour. He
concluded by saying that if Government had not opposed
the bill be should have felt it his duty to do so.
Mr. DUNLOP denied that the rates allowed to Scottish
paupers were so high as to induce them to leave their ordi-
nary labours. He recommended Mr. Ellice to withdraw
the bill.
Mr. ELLICE acceded to their united requests, believing
that the question could be better dealt with by the Go-
vernment than by a private member.
The bill was withdrawn accordingly.
SUNDAY TRADING (METROPOLIS) BILL.
The order of the clay having been read for the second
readingv
g ofGßthoiss bill,
on
presented
petitions, signed by
15,000 persons from all parts of the metropolis, it, favour
of the measure.
Petitions to the same effect were presented by Sir John
Shelley, from Westminster; Viscount Ebrington, from
Marylebone ; Sir W. Clay, from the Tower Hamlets; Mr.
Montagu Chambers, from Greenwich and Woolwich ; and
Sir J. Duke, from the city of London, signed by 9,000
persona.
Lo R. GROSVENOR moved the second reading of
the bill.

Mr. WILKINSON felt it his duty to offer the objec-
.ions he conscientiously entertained tc this measure, which
would interfere with all the operations of trrde and inter-
rupt the pursuit of many avocations which bad hitherto
been exercised without prejudice to any one, and with
advantage to the community generally. He could not
admit that any religious principle was necessarily involved
in this question. He regarded the measure as in fact
directed against the interests of the poor, and going beyond
all propriety of legislation, though he should not insist on
himself dividing the house against it.
Viscount EBRINGTON supported the measure, mainly
on religious grounds, though quite prepared also toadvocate
it on the lower grounds of expediency and politicaleconomy.
They had been told by Mr. Bianconi that horses which
rested on Sundays did more work in six days than others
did in seven, and he maintained that the repose of the
Sabbath was necessary both for man and beast. The pe-
titions in favour of the bill were mainly signed by those
who were suffering under the operation of the present state
of things, which led to unfair competition between trades-
men, and to injurious treatment of workmen. He believed
the amount of money spent and custom given to shop-
keepers would remain unaffected by such a measure as was
now proposed. As regarded the labouring classes, he be-
lieved that six days' work with one day's rest was better
than one continuous round of labour during the week.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD supported the second
reading of the bill, citing in its favour the committee
which sat upon this subject in 1832. One most important
matter which he recollected on the subject was the bondage
which one class of tradesmen exerted on another in this
question of Sunday trading. Many persons who would
close their shops on Sunday were obliged to keep them
open in consequence of others keeping theirs open. Now
nothing could be more advantageous than to relieve those
persons from a tyranny most galling to their consciences.
He was sorry to see that (no doubt, for good reason) this
bill while dealing with the sale of other articles did not
touch the sale of beer or spirits on Sunday. Ile congra-
tulated the house on the introduction of this bill, by pas-
sing whicb, he believed, they would take the course most
conducive to the glory of God and the advantage of their
follow-subjects. ,(Bear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY agreed in the propriety of sending the bill
to a select committee, and he hoped that this attempt to
check Sunday trading would be more successful than pre-
vious measures had been. It introduced no new principle,
but merely attempted to remedy certain defects in the ex-
isting law. Under these circumstances h thought the
discussion need not be protracted.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the working classes had no
desire to desecrate the Sunday, but necessity compelied
them to purchase their provisions on Sunday morning;
and, before this measure could work, they must alter the
system of paying wages late on Saturday night, and they
must. also improve the dwellings of the poor. He thought
this law, if passed at all, ought to apply to the whole
country. He would prohibit all Sunday trading on all
subjects, and applicable to all parts of the country after 11
o'clock, and he believed that would meet with universal
assent.

Mr JAMES MACGREGOR supported the bill, and he
bpi ved that all the intelligent artisans of the metropolis
were of the Caine opinion.
Sir J. SHELLEY objected to the bill being sent to a
select committee. He found that both the tradespeople
and the working classes of 'Westminster were in favour of
the measure, and that it would be beneficial to both.
There were portions of the bill to which he entertained
objections; but upon the whole he believed it was a ra-

tional and practical measure.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS supported this measure as au effi-
cient means of improving the condition of the working
classes, and especially of compelling masters to pay their
workpeople at a reasonable time ou Saturday.
Mr. J. G. PHILLI WORE objected to certain details of
the bill, but would not divide the bouse against it.
Mr. HADFIELD urged upon the house the propriety
of putting upon the committee practical men, who antler•

stood the system of paying wages early, as that was an
essential pint towards the proper working of this bill.
Mr. W J. Fox opposed, and Mr. KIRK supported, the
bill on the)lo.iical grounds.
Lord R GROSVENOR in reply, objected to sending
the bill to $ select committee, which he was certain would
only give the messure an intramural buri d. lie nu•ler-
took the ha at the instance of the people whose interests
it was inteatle,l to affect, and its provisions lie might say
were framed under their auspices. He hoped the house
would not insist upon sending the bill to a select com-
mittee.
__

Mr. MASTERMAN also objected to a select committee ;
after which the bill was read a second time.
Mr. DUNCOMBE then move,' that it be referred to a
select committee, which was the usual course in all ques-
tions of this nature.

Mr. WILKINSON seconded the motion.
Sir G. GREY said there was no rule of the house to
send such tills to select committees, ant the fate of former
bills did not encourage his noble friend to follow that
course.

Mr. DIINCOMBE withdrew his notion, and the bill
was ordered to be committed on Wednesday, the 13th
June.

LAND AND ASSESSED TAXES DIVISIONS BILL.

Mr. FREWEN moved the s cond reading of this bill, the
object of which was to facilitate the f•. }rnia.tion of divisions
fur which meetings of commissioners of land or assessed
taxes might belie held, in this country, the present boundaries
of divisions being inconvenient to the inh .bitants of them
He proposed to give power to the Treasury, upo❑ a state-
ment made by five or more commissioners of land-tax for
any county, to remove a parish from one division to another,
where it might appear advantageous to do so. There were
many cases in which much hardship was experienced from
persons being compelled to go to a great distance to pay
their taxes. The alteration he proposed was that, on a
certain number of local commissioners making a represen-
tation to the Treasury, that they thou _ht a transfer neces-
sary, the Treasury, after making due inquiry, should have
the power to order the alteration to be male. There were
often cases of appeal against what were deemed surcharges,
and every facility should be given in those cases for enabling
the appellant to appear before the local commissioners. He
hoped the Government would offer no opposition to the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that any great inconvenience arose from the
present system, and therefore was not disposed to agree to
the second reading of the bill. What he understood the
bill tolpropose was that it should be competent for the local
commissioners of any one division of a county to apply to
the Treasury for the transfer of a parish from one division
of a county to another, or even to another county ; but, as
the rates varied in different counties, this might be found
a strong objection to the proposed alteration. If, however,
the law were shown to be in any respect defective, be would
be ready to bring in a measure to remedy such defect.
Mr. SPOONER supported the bill, as he thought that
under the present system there existed inconveniences
which, though not great in number, were very much felt
in individual cases.

The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the bill 35
Against it 125
-90

Majority,

COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELANb) BILLS.

Mr. WHITESIDE prefaced his motion for the second
reading of a series of bills for the reform of the Court of
Chancery in Ireland by adverting to the beneficial results
of the reforms introduced into the English Chancery, which
these bills were intended to adapt, mutcais mutand is, to the
former court. The first abolished the master's-office alto-
gether. The second amended the practice and course of pro-
ceeding of the court upon the model of the English Court.
The third bill aitereil the law relating to the appointment
of receivers ; it consisted of matter of law, which was as-
similated to that of England, and of matter of regulation.
The fourth bill provided for the sales of estates, by en-
grafting upon the reformed Court of Chancery all that was
good in the Encumbered Estates Court about to expire,
and transferring the business of the latter court to the
former, giving it the power to add to its decree of sale a pvr-
liamentary title. As the business of the Court of Chancery
would by these measures be incre,sed, it was necessary to
provide a local court of appeal, and this was the subject of
the fifth bill, which did not create a new court or a single
new judge, but would afford the suitor an opportunity of
a re-hearing of his c•iuse before the Lord Chancellor, as-
sisted by retired judges. The last bill modified the stamp
duties to meet the altered practice of the Court.

Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said, if he thought that legis-
lation was required to work out the wonderful reforms
which Mr. Whiteside had described in his exaggerated
speech. he should not oppose these bills; but, believing
that they would not accomplish those results, on the con-
trary that they would have an opposite tendency, and us
nt this moment, and when these bills were introduced, a
Royal Commission was sitting to inquire into the subject,
it was his ditty to advise the house to reject them. Mr.
.Vhiteside, however, had described a system and rules that
did not now exist ; abuses. to which he had allude I, were
reformed by the act of 1851, and they were now dealing
with a new system. But there was not a suvestion con-
tained in these bills which had not been brought under the
notice of ,the commissioners in December last, and which
was not to he found in the printed questions they had cir-
culated. He assured the hon. member (Mr. Whiteside),
however, that when he came to frame a bill upon the re-
port of the commissioners he should be ready to adopt any-
thing valuable in these bills, and would give the learned
gentleman the credit of it. After a brief review of the bills,
and a severe criticism of those for reforming the procedure,
for the appointment of receivers, and for the constitution
of an appellate tribunal, comparing their provisions with
the suggestions contained in a draught report of the com-
missioners, he remarked that he thought the hon. member
(Mr. Whiteside) would have acted a wiser part if he had
contented himself with laying the bills on the table pend-
ing the report of the commissioners, and he moved to defer
the second reading of the bills for six months.

Mr. CAIRNS suggested, as a medium course, that the
further progress of the bills should be suspended until the
house saw the recommendations of the commissioners.
Mr. MALINS complained of the severe terms and sar-
castic tone employed by Mr. Fitzgerald in his criticism of
these bills. He complained likewise of the use made by
him irregularly, he contended, of a draught report of the
commissioners —a confidential document. He defenled the
bills againsttbe str'ctures of Mr. Fitzgerald, and gave them
his most cordial suprort.

Mr. KEOGH replied to Mr. Mantas, and proposed that
the debate should be adjourned until the report of the
commissioners was upon the table. He moved to that
effect.

After some remarks by Mr. HENLEY and Mr. WHITE_
SIDE, the debate was adjourned for a month.

The Dissenters'sMarriages Bill was read a second time.
The Income Tax Bill was read a third time and passed.
CINQUE PORTS BILL.
This bill was read a ecotid time, and the committee was
fixed for Monday.

EXCISE ACTS.
The report was received, and leavo was given to bring in
a bill fou d thereon.

METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS ACTS.

I On the motion of Mr. PELLATr, copies were ordered
of all communications addressed to district surveyors and
others, by the authority of the chief commissioners of
Works and Buildings, with reference to the 28th section of
the bill for the amendment of the Metropolitan Buildings
Acts, and of the replies thereto, in the year 1854, as to
circular, curvilinear, and polygonal walls. Copies were
also ordered of any reports or papers by a committee of
professional persons appointed to revise the Metropolitan
Buildings Acts by the Earl of Carlisle, when First Com-
missioner of Works and Buildings in 114 and 1819.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
On the motion of Mr. WILSON, leave was given to
bring in a bill for legalising and preserving the restored
standards of weights and measures.
The house adjourned at 2() minutes past one o'clock.

DEFICIENCY BILLS.—A Parliamentary paper issued
yesterday shows that the amount of deficiency hills bear-
ing interest on the 27th of April was 2,470,0001., and
the amount received in respect of the new loan of
16 000 0001., and lying unemployed at the same date,
1,600 0001.

NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL —Two clauFeß have
been added in committee to this bill. One enacts that
periodical -publications must be posted within 15 days
after publication, and the other refers all questions which
may arise whether a printed paper is entitled to the pri-
vilege of postage to the decision of the Postmaster-
General, whose determination, with the consent of the
Treasury, will he final.
THE OXFORD PETITION AGAINST THE SUNDAY BEER
BILL—The petition from the city of Oxford, to both
houses of Parliament, in favour of a repeal of the new
beer bill of last session, restricting the opening of public-
houses Sunday, lifts beta signixl by 3,348 male adults,
including the name of the mayor, the late sheriff, two
aldermen, the coroner, and a majority of members of the
town council. The Earl of Abingdon has kindly con-
sented to present it to the House of Lords ; and Mr.
Langston, member for Oxford, to the House of Com-
mons. The petition is now in their hands for presenta-
tion.

'MARCH OF TITS WEST.—Vast additions and improvements are
silently yet rapidly proceeding at the west end of the metro-
polis, and, in spite of war and the comparative scarcity of
money, capital is there asserting its supremacy in the shape of
magnificent squares and rows of mansions of an almost pala-
tial character. The large open space of ground in the Ux-
bridge-road, opposite the Kensington-gardens, has been taken
by Mr. Austin for a further extension of his grand and utili-
tarian habitations; and a church of some magnitude, from
designs of Mr. Francis, the architect, is already exhibiting its
just and correct proportions. But it is behind this plot, and
over a space of some extent, to which we would direct the
attention of those to whom the remarkable increase of this
neighbourhood is new. The principal feature of this area is
Cleveland-square, bounded on one side by the Queen's-garden,
and but a few minutes' walk from the Westbourne-terraces
and that chef d'cetore of railway termini, the Great Western
and its noble hotel. In entering this square from the south-
east we find its corners rounded off, which gives a novel effect
to this approach, and will be appreciated by those " who in
easy carriage ride." The houses in the square are some
sixty in number, with a uniform exterior of a pleasing
and elegant, yet unpretentious character. The interiors
are models of their kind, and the mechanism of compo-
sition appears to have been thoroughly understood.
Distribution, decoration, and construction have been
well considered, and convenience and economy very com-
mendably kept in view. To Iwo the happy medium of size for
a family of position and substance appears to have been at-
tained, and the quaint old Dr. Fuller's notion that "houses
had better be too little for a day than too big for a year" seems
to have been borne in mind. Mantels of scarce marble and
-Serpentine, and stoves of approved construction, are found in
the principal rooms and conservatories ; and libraries, or
studies lighted from above, mark the attention of the builder
to the more elevated and special requirements of the period.
The drawing rooms of several of these houses, 'particularly
that of the Swedish Ambassador, are decorated in a light and
cheerful manner in the French style, and others in the Ger-
man school, by Mr. ICnckuck, of Pall Mall, the successor to
Mr. Sang—and they display an adv unced and correct know-
ledge of chromatic art, giving a life and animation to apart-
meuts which might perchance have become grave and ppres-
sive, or meretricious and offensive, under other influences".
Upon inquiry we found that, as is the case in this locality, the
water possesses great purity, and the soil being gravelly, in-
dicates dryness end salubrity. The altitude of the position
is perhaps no less remarkable ; the kitchens of these houses
being upon a level, if not above, the upper floors of Bucking.
ham Palace. Tho whole extent is private ground, and will be
protected from the intrusion of objectionable traffic, much
after the manner of the Marquis of Westminster's and other
exclusive property. It may be added that the houses appear
to be let almost as fast as they are ready for the reception of
inhabitants, and next to the wonder of the neighbourhood
itself is that'of where all these families Of oTideut Wealth and
position come from,—Ofring Poe.

A IcM Y BEFoRE SbBASToPoh cam_

MIT TEE.

The committee r,,-assembied yesterday morning at the
usual hour.

Sir Thotnas Hastings was recallwi, and his examination
was resuxed by Lord Seymour.
He in the fir-t instance stated that he was not pre-
pared to say whether the requisitions sent to the Ord-
nance in June last for a supply of warm clothing, to be
sent out to the East, were made verbally or in writing.
Communications of that description from the War-office
were frequently made verbally. When the Duke of
Newcastle was in office, all orders were covered by a
general sanction.
In reply to Mr. Layard, the witness stated that he
did not know whether there was any record of the in-
structions in his office, but there certainly was the record
of the execution of these orders.
By General Peel—When he did receive a written
order for the warm clothing, he acted upon it without
delay, es he was fully alive to its importance.
By the Chairman—When a requisition of that sort
was sent to you. do you think it ought to depend upon
your memory when you are asked about its execution ?
The witness replied that the record of it if sent would
not be in his office but in the office of the Secretary at
War.

The Chairman—l suppose, therefore, if we sent there
for it we can have it I
Witness—Undou?teillf. . .
Examination continued—When this requisition ar-
rived he (witness) was in the country, but be was sent
for, as the authorities at home said they were getting
into a state of perplexity relative to the warm clothing.
There was a difficulty about enforcing a contract—but
he informed the Board that it had been entered as a
minute of the Board, and that it ought not to be quashed
or rescinded. He did not inquire into the cause of this
because it might have given rise to an unpleasant feeling.
Lord Seymour—We are not inquiring into questions
of unpleasant feeling. We wish to get at the manner
in which business was transacted at the Board of Ord-
nance. Did you inquire why the contract was to be
quashed ?
Witness—No.
The Chairman—Why did you not!
Witness—All I thought ,of was to carry out the con-
tract, and to insure a speedy and proper supply.
Lord Seymour—l wish to ascertain whether or not
the contractor had received orders to stop the supply ?
Witness—l believe he had.
Lord Seymour—Did he tell you so ?
Witness—No, he did not inform me himself; but I
inferred that he had bad orders to stop the supply from
what Mr. Stacey, the storekeeper, told me. He told
me that the contract was stopped.
Lord Seymour—Did he tell you on what grounds
Witness—He did not.
Lord Seymour—By whose order then was the contract
stopped ?

Witness—l cannot tell.
The Chairman—Do you not, then, see what takes
place, or have youato depend merely upon hearsay ?
Witness—Generally I do not see what occurs under
the Board. The contract might have been stepped by
Mr. Monsell, or by the united order of the Board.
General Peel here suggested that there were surely
minutes kept of the proceedings of the Board, to which
the witness might have bad access.
The Chairman—Do I. understand that you were not
allowed to see the minutes ?
Witness— Oh, no ! When any of us leave town the
minutes of the hoard are not forwarded to us.
The Chairman— But when you came back you might
have seen them ?
Witness—Certainly, but I did not. I was satisfied
with what Mr. Stacey told me. I had no official infor-
mation of the fact.
Mr. Layard—But minutes are usually kept of all
orders, are they not ?
Witness—Minutes until lately were kept regularly of
all proceedings of the board ; but I will not undertake
to say there is a minute relative to the matter now be-
fore the committee. It was the duty of the clerk of
the Ordnance to communicate with the Secretary for
War, and he was in the habit of bringing verbal orders
from the War-office, which were at once acted upon—a
course which was never used antecedent to that time.
These orders were binding on the Ordnance although sent
by word of mouth. I was then, and am still of opinion
that public business of that kind should always be re-
corded in writing ; and although the verbal order of the
Secretary for War was binding on the board, at the same
time I thought it was important and essential that a
written order ought always to be given, with .a view to
its being properly recorded, and in case any question
should arise, that the original order should be there to
verify the execution of its directions by the board.
In reply to General Peel, the witness stated that,
under a Secretary at War no order of that sort could
have been taken except through his positive directions.
He did not think the abolition of that office was any
improvement.
By Lord Seymour--It was probable that the whole
proceedings connected with the contract being irregular,
no minute was kept. It resembled correspc ndence
rather than an official act.
Some further conversation ensued respecting the de-
tails of management at the Ordnance-office, and the
quantities of warm clothing ordered last summer, after
which,
The Chairman said—l have heard it stated that
at the hospital at Scutari socks of a size for children
were issued to the men. Would that be possible, accord-
ing to your mode of conducting business ?
'Witness—lf we had proceeded as we do in ordinary
times, that would have been impossible ; but in this
case there was great hurry and confusion.
The Chairman —Do you think it possible tha-t it
occurred ?
Witness—lt is possible, but I do not think it is
probable.
The Chairman—Did you never hear of such an occtrr-
rence ?
Witness—l beard that the socks were not of a full
size. (Laughter.)
Mr. Liyard—Did you ever hear also that the shoes'
issued to the men were not of the full size ?
Witness—l think that is very possible.
Examination continued—On the 7th August he ap-
plied to the Admiralty for tonnage for a large quantity
of warm clothing. They did not reply immediately, as
it is not the custom to reply until trey had tonnage at
their disposal. They had no tonnage at disposal until
the 16th October.
The Chairman—And you remained quiet all that
time ?
Witness—l made no less than nine applications.
Lord Seymour reminded the witness that several ves-
sels, whose names he mentioned, had sailed with stores
in the interval spoken of by the witness.
The witness said that in all probability they had con-
veyed stores of urgent necessity.
Lord "Seymour—Were they sent out in accordance
with requisitions previously made to the Admiralty?
Witness—Most likely they werte:srf.
Lord Seymour—Well then, aft 'his supply of
yours, although of so pressing.» r . chat the ordi-
nary system of contracts was departed from in procuring
it, never went out until the 16th October
Witness—That is so,
Lord Seymour afterwards, in allusion to the medical
stores, said Dr. Smith had stated to the committee that
these stores were all supplied by the Ordnance ; and in-
quired when the witness was first made acquainted of
the fact that the Ordnance would be called upon to sup-
ply the hospital furniture, &c., to the hospitals ?
The witness replied that he could not say the exact
date without reference to some documents, but said he
would inform the committee at a future time.
Examination continued—He received several requisi-
tions from Dr. Andrew Smith relative to hospital furni-
ture and medical stores.
Lot d Seymour—We are not speaking of Doctor
Smith. I wish to know when an army of 10,000 men
was ready to proceed to the East as early as March,
1854, had you not been directed to provide hospital fur-
niture and stores. Was no requisition sent to you,
officially ?
Witness—lt is impostjible to give a precise and defi-
nite answer to that question, without referring to my
documents.
Lord Seymour—Next with regard to the tents, and
what are called Quartermaster's stores, which, I believe,
are supplied by the Ordnance, how did you proceed ?
The witness replied that there was a large quantity
of tents always in store - -and was at that particular
period—and they were at once, therefore, sent out. He
did not think any old tents were sent out, because the
storekeeper had strict orders to examine their stores

every year. If any old tents were sent out, the respon-
sibility of the occurrence would rest upon the store.
keeper of the depot from which they were sent.
Examination continued—When Dr. Smith required
any furniture or stores to be gupplied from the Ordnance
he gent a equiiition to him (w,tne.,) tot furnish th-m,
sad it was at once complied with. Re inforned Dr.
Smith at the outset that whenever he require:l soy.
thing if he would send a requisition and state that the
matter was pressing- or urgent, he (witness) would un-
dertake that the order should be complied with without
delay or difficulty—and sent out forthwith if there was
no objection on the part of the Minister for War.
Lord Seymour—Were you ever interfered with in
consequence of any objections on the part of the Minis-
ter if War ?
Wltness—No, never.
The remainder of Sir Thomas }lasting's' examination
was of a rather desultory and generally unintere-itig
character, as it had reference chifflv to deta•lß of the
routine of business in connection with the Ordnance de-
partment.

He stated, in reply to the chairman, that boots and

eire
shoes were c 'nsigned to the C •t, aot
afterwards p'n--ed at t?:e a ot th, Q +sttr-
Ge,:cra:. If the (I.::.rerc a
had I to r eelti. tee hoots and Ai, es he ha :
guilty ~f a bread) ~f dory.
Be Captain Gladst o,e—fTe had received 11. 114 f,ll-•
MRtintl to the fleet that the li,ots slid shoe- ha I been
conveyed back •ar ;t4 Nn,l tor ,ard- in transport,.
By Loid Secmoor—Officers in the Ordnance De arr-
ment frequently °verso epped the strict, hue of their
duty ; but if it appeared that they bad acted with dis-
cretion no censure was passed upon him.
The witness then went on to explain the system
under which contracts were entered into by the Ord-
nance. When a contractor did not properly supply any
article he undertook, he was not afterwards employed
by theGoverninent.
Mr. Layard—l have received a letter, in which the
writer states that, a few days ago, he saw at the gun
wharf at Portsmouth several bales of winter clothing.fer
the Crimea. How was it those goods were not sent out !
Sir T. Hastings replied that the Ordnance had received
orders not to send out any more wit:ter clothing, and
that the writer of the note might have seen some which
had been detained in consequence of that order.
The witness was then examined respecting the tools
supplied to the troops, and in reply to Lord Seymour,
who called his attention to the fact that several officers
had informed the cosuniittee that the tools sent out were
very bad, said that he believed the mass of Is was very
good, with the exception perhaps of the bill-hooks. Be
had frequently seen cases in which tools which had been
condemned as bad had turned out to be excellent. He
believed that the general officers who were leaving heard
from the men that the tools were bad, and thus fell into
a mistake.

Lord Seymour—lt has been stated in evidence that
the tools at Chobham were bad. Have you heard of
that!

Witness—No.

Lord Seymour—General Bentinck informed us that a
board sat upon the tools at Scutari. What was their
report ?

Witness—l have not seen a report.

Lord Seymour—Captain Shakspear has stated that he
was president of a board at Varna which examined into
the tools, and that the board condemned them all ex-
cepting the pickaxes. The tools condemned were spader,
axes, and particularly bill-hooks.
The Chairman—Are we then to assume that all the
evidence which has been given relative to the tools being
of bad quality, by military officers who have been exa-
mined, is incorrect?
_ _ .

Witness—l believe the larger proportion of the tools
supplied were good. Some of the tools might have been
bad.

Mr. Layard—Are you aware that the tools were cull-
demned at the time of the Portuguese exp dition ?

Witness—No, I am not. -
In reply to Lord Seymour, the witness afterwards
said he would at some future time furnish the committee
with the name of the contractor for the tools and the
price paid for them. He then went on to defend the qua-
lity of the tools, generally speaking, and cited various
documents in favour of the point.
The committee adjourned shortly before four o'clock.