The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 2, 1855

notice to the commissary-general in the Crirea of
the intention to send out cavalry, and of the prnount
it was determined to scud. If that were ndt done,
these horses when sent out would find nothing to eat.
(Hear, hear.) Notice should be given at once through
the electric telegraph, otherwise the whole of their'', cavalry
would be sent to a desert which produced bothing.
The cavalry could only depend on the supp ies that
would be sent by ships for their support, and th a would
cause a serious demand for tonnage. We were rrying
on our operations by means of transports, and h trusted
that on every occasion, the instant any intention was
determined, notice of it would be despatched to the
commissary•general in the Crimea.
Lord PANMURE said that he had had a communi-
ticm that day from General Scarlett, and he 'put the
number of cavalry soldiers at 1,300, and of horseis at 450.
Lord VIVIAN did not press for the returns.
Motion withdrawn.

The Earl ofDERBY said that the noble marquis had
on the previous evening stated that the nobleearl the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs would either make
a statement, or inform the house on what day lie would
do so, relative to the result of the negotiati• ns atVienna,
and to the present position of the Allied Powers towards
themselves and towards Russia. He (Lord" Derby) ha I
seen the noble earl the Foreign Secretary on two or three
occasions that evening flitting through the house—(a
laugb)—but he had been unable to find any occasion t.,
put a question to him on this subject. He now asked
the noble marquis, in the absence of the nobie earl, it
be oiuld state anything on the part of the nobly earl
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE bad not stated that
his noble frit n i (the Earl of Cl-irendon) would make a
statement that day, but that I.e had no doui.t be would
make a statement very soot*—so soon, indeed, as po-sit
ble. He had spoken to his noble friend a few moments
before, and he had only just left the house. (A. laugh.)
The Earl of DERBY—I understood from the noble
marquis yesterday that the noble earl would be here
to-day, an I would inform the house when Le would make
such a statement as I had referred to.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I did not use the
word "to-day." But I agree that it is of the greatest
importance that a stweineot shiuld be made on the ear-
liest poss;ible day. (Hear.) I cannot undertake to say
where my noble friend is at this moment. (A. laugh.)
Their lordships adjourned at 20- minutes past six.

, HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. DEASEY was introduced, and took the oa,ths
and his seat for the county of Cork.
The following bills were ordered to be considered :
Ashton-under-Lyne Gas and Water, and the Birmingham
Gas.

On the motion for the second reading of the Dublin,
&c., Roads (No. 2) Pill,
Mr. COGAN moved an amendment that it be read a
second time that day six months.
Mr. MACARTNEY seconded the amendment.
Mr. VANCE supported the bill.
After a short discussion, in which Mr. Vincent Scully,
Lord Nam, Mr. Grogan, Mr. Isaac Butt, Capt. Magan,
and Mr. Keogh took part,
The amendment was negatived without a division,
and the second reading w is agreed to.
The New River and Trustees of the River Lea Bill
was then read a second time.
ARMY COMMISSIONS, &c.

On the motion of Mr. LAYARD, returns were
ordered of all commissions granted in the army sinee
the commencement of the war ; stating in each case the
name of the person to whom granted, the regiment, and
reasons for such commission being granted without pur-
chase. Return of officers who have received certificates at
the senior department of the Royal Military College at
Sandhurst, and have not been subsequently employed 011
the staff of our army during the last 20 years ; stating
which of the above officers are on full service, and
which are on half pay. Return of the names of all
the officers who have been or are now employed in
any capacity on the general staff 4 the army in the
Crimea, or on any private staff since the commencement
of the war, stating the dates of their commissions, soy
past services, and any staff employments en which
they may have served before ; Return of all priarnotions
in the army, with and without purchase, made since the
commencement of the war ; stating the names, previous
rank, date of promotions, and time and nature of services
io each case, and the regiment from and to which the
promotion took place.
DESPATCHES FROM LORD RAGLAN.
In reply to Mr. WARNER,
Sir C. WOOD said he had yesterday given nearly
verbatim the whole of the despatch received yesterday
from Lord Raglan ; but a despatch was received to-Jay,
which stated that the Russian force between the Belbek
a .d M•Kenzie's Farm had been reinforced by two divi-
snow. ( Laughter.) That was really the whole of the
despatch. (Oh. oh.)
FRENCH ARMY AND STAFF.

In reply to Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, as to the comtu;s-
siou sent over by the Duke of Newcastle to inquire into
the French Military Staff, &c.,
Mr. PEEL said he would make inquiry and state tc-
morrow or Thmsdar as to whether the report of that
commission had been received.

THE TELEGRAPH FRO VI BALAKLAVA.
In reply to Mr. FRENCH,
Str C. WOOD said the tAegri.oh from Bata,klava to
this country was entirely under the control of the Go-
vernment, and it was intended to keep it, though not
perhaps exclusively Sc.
THE LOAN BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appealed
to the how.e to allow this bill to be read a third time
and sent to the House of Lords this evening.
Mr. SPOONER said it was not his wish to oppose
the Government on this question ; but if any debate
were to take place on the Loan Bill, he must oppose the
motion.

The bill was then read a third time and pac!sed.
THE VIENNA CONFERENCE.

Mr. BRIGHT wished to talc the noble lord at the
head of the Government a question, and would detain
the house but a few moments in putting it He was not
present last evening when the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
made his statemetitrelativeto the Vienna Conference, but
from what he had read in the public papers, he did not
think that it was very distinct or satisfactory. He did not
put this question fur the purpose of embarrassing the
Government, for the noble lord knew that, for the last
six weeks he (Mr. Bright) had been exceedingly
silent —(hear, hear, and laughter) —whilst the peace
negotiations were progressing. We were now, however, in
a new stage of affairs, aed he felt personally very
anxious, as no doubt hundreds of thousands were
besides, as to the result of those negotiations ;
and he therefore wished the noble lord at the head of
the Government to state distinctly what were the terms
that were offered to .the Ripsian Government, and M. at
the Russian Government had. fiWrnated its willingness
to accept ; in fact, the exact difference between the
terms proposed by the Allies and what Russia had inti-
mated she would accept. He wished the noble lord to
state at what period he should be prepared to furnish
this information. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said if the hon. gentleman
had been present last eveni.ig he would have heard his
question most substantially answered. (Hear, hear, arid
laughter.) He stated that it was the intention of the
Government to lay on the table, at the earliest oppor-
tenite, the Whole of the protocols of the Conference, and
he thought they would be found to contain all the infer-
matien sought by the hon.- gentleman.. (Hear,hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT—The noble lord did not state whether
any counter-propesitiens were made, nor did he fix any
particular time when the papers would be ready.
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the hon. Gentle-
man would find the whole ot the information he sought
in the papers he alluded to, which he was informed
would be ready in the course of a few days. (Hear.)
THE MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
On the order of the day fir the motion of Mr. Spooner
on the subject of the endowment of Maynooth College,
A large number of petitions were presented from
various parts of the country against the
,Maynooth
Grant.
Mr. SPOONETt then rose to move—" That this
house do resolve itself into a committee, for the purpose
of considering the Acts for the Endowment ot the
College of Maynooth, with a view to the withdrawal of
any endowment out of the Consolidated Fund, due re-
gard being had to vested rights or inter, eta." He
observed that he once more ventured to bring this
thnh
uo
gr thatntthqatuetshteiotnimbeefhoarde trhioewhoarursiev.ei (wLahuegnhttheer.)settlitee.
ment of +hi; question was necessary to the safe'
Crown, the integrity of the empire, and the. 161Lonfi the
Crown,
the people. The question had become nneer:e:f.g.arG",eiee-pd-
interest to the inhabitants of this country,-rational
incurtiCaat:di
the endowment of Maynooth as great
he would assure the house that the d'octrinee
of the Pope,
at Maynooth, relative to the- siiiiiineacy
were beginning to create a great feeling of jealousy .
France ; and he had it on reliable authority that a strong
feeling feeling existed on the other side of the channel against
the ultramontane. doctrines which the Pope was endea-
vouring to force on the people of that country. Going
next to the origin of the grant he observed
that it was a free gift by Parliament, and
contended that surely if,; Parliament was free to give
it was free to withdraw. On the 3d of April, 1845,
Sir Robert Peel said, "It is a measure, I trust, con-
ceived in the, spirit to which I have referred—a liberal
and confiding spirit. We are not introducing it after
communication with the leading ecclesiastical authorities
of the ,Roman Catholic Church ; it has not been a sub-
ject of stipulation or of contract with them. We are
prepared in a liberal and confiding spirit to improve the
institution, to eievatei the character of the education sup-
plied. And by improvement I do not mean to imply
any such interference in the course of education as would
effect a total change, but that we should treat that in-
stitution in a generous spirit, in the. hope that we shall
be met. in a corresponding spirit, that we shall be repaid
for our liberality by ensuring a more liberal system of
instruction." That was a declaration of that right hon.
gentleman who was the conceding party to the grant.
He (Mr. Spooner) asked every man who had held cffice,
under her Majesty's Government since that grant was
made, or who had anything to do with elections in Ire-
land, how those expectations had been answered. Tied
92e views been fulfilled under which the grant was msele?
He contended that it had entirely failed, and that it had
bilarociuthete about wholly different results from those which
iainticipated, under which circumstances the
cosstra.,es:
thethere !Om to had been one, would have at once
Secretary fur around. The noble lord- at present 'the
,p4,609110f the Colonies bad been equally clear on this
whether it would
dneoriti37:
dedwieniaerudiete.:l;,,suasN:ill 3, 1845, to said, «I do
d alnte the question of contract, or
Prudent act t strip cud-
to efluato prielt4 cj: t4Walllitnalte no further advance. !
(424i•Catiloiic tagrob,
. _

but at the same time I will say that it you found that it
was doing that which was mischievous to the community,
and that the- religious scruples of the community would
not allow the continuance of this grant. or with reference
to civil and ecoleSiastical reasons you found that those
you meant to be teachers of religion had become the
leaders and conductors of rebellion, there is then ground
sufficient to refuse this grant—then I say that there is
no valid reason to restrain you—no reason why the house
should not be justified in declaring that no further
grant should be given." Leaders of rebellion ! Disturbers
of the public peace ! Let hon. gentlemen look to their
elections, and say whether the noble lord's words did
net strictly apply to the Roman Catholic priests. On the
authority therefore of Sir Robert Peel and the noble
lord the member for the City of London, he stated that
a deep seated feeling do the part of the community at
large called for a repeal of that grant, and upon that
ground he appealed to the house to support the motion
for repeal. Hon. gentlemen would, in all probability,
goon have to meet their constituents, and they might
depend upon it that the most important question which
would be put to them would have reference to this ques-
tion of Maynooth. (Hear, hear.) He had agreed a few
years ago to 'inquiry, but he had never connected to
inquiry by a commission, which was the course pur-
eued. The report of that commission, he would
show, was a complete delusion and sham, and the
most conclusive proof of that was that the report
was sent to Rome, while the Queen and her subjects
were kept waiting for it for weeks arid. months together.
More than that, in theeappendix to the report there was
a return, in which Dr. Cuilen and some other bishops
received their full ecclesias: leaf titles, in detience of the
law ; and he had the authority of Lord Harrowhy for
s,,atine that this was done without his authority, and
that the titles were not in the return when it was pre-
sented to the commissioners. He thought it was fir
the Government 'to ascertain who had since tampered
with the return. He stated further that the evidence of
several witnesses had been tampered with, modified, and
partially suppressed, after it had gone out Of the short-
hand-writer's hands. He next referred to the class-
hooks used in the institution, quoting from them pro-
positions on ethical subjects, which are condemned
everywhere except in the books of the casuists.
The honourable member next turned to the ,sub-
ject of oaths and obligations, quoting Liguori and
other Romish divines, and pointing out the ob-
jectionable character ot their doctrines ; and then pro-
ceeded to read evidence given before the Maynooth
commission respecting the books in use in the college.
Some books, he said, were excluded as favouring Galil-
ean doctrines, and others as enforcing doctrines respect-
ing marriage hostile to the view taken by the Roman
Catholic Church. With respect to the Index Expurga-
torius, it appeared that the witnesses considered it as not
binding in Ireland, but that Still the Romish clergy felt
Very much influenced by it in the selection of their
books. Here, then (said the hon. member), were the
English Government and people endowing a college, the
studies of which were regulated by a foreign potentate,
and the students of which looked to Rome, not to Eng
iand, for the selection of those books. He called on
hon. members to tea, I the evidence for themselves, and
then to say whether they would continue to support
this vote. Let them consider that the priests were
teaching the doctrines of Rome to the people, and
more especially, as regarded the rite of marriage, teach-
ing them among other things that no heretical
marriage carried the right of succession along with
it. He asked the house to give -him leave to bring in a
bill which should withdraw the nationel support fie m
an institution which, in his opinion,- taught doctrines so
objectionable. The bill would provide that the students
in the college at the time of its passing should receive
their present allowances to the end of their terms ; and
also that while teaching these remaining students, the
professors should retain their salaries. This might be
objected to on the high ground of principle, but previous
legislation had left him no alternative. With that ex-
ception be would propose to withdraw all corporate
power, but that the present corporation should have
the power to deal with the property of the college as
trustees. Having cautioned the house against permit
ting an institution to continue, the function of which
was to destroy the Established Church, the hon. mem-
ber proceeded in an indistinct tone to address himself to
the Roman Catholic members present. He reminded
them of the promises made at the time of the Emancipa-
tion Bill, and expressed his conviction that no en-
lightened Roman Catholic believed the pernicious
doctrines taught at Maynooth. The truth was that they
believed that everything was properly managed by their
prelates, and gave theineelves no trouble to inquire into
the doctrines taught in the books. He could, frim his
own knowledge, say this much of the Roman Catholic
funilies of Warwickshire, amongst whine he lived, anti
whom he knew to make some of the best magistrates and
landlords in the couetv. But such were net he men
,eho bad been 'sent by the Emancipation Bel to that
eouse ; on the euntrary, they were, as a body, the no-
minces of the priests, turd bound to obey the behests of
the sacerdotal body itneverythipg. These were the men
who had frequently stated that they would never be con-
tent while the Established Church remained in Ireland.
(Elea; hear) He warned the house that if these men
were nut restrained, they would persevere until the
Protestant institutions of this country had been de-
stroyed by their machinations. He did not expect
many more opportunities .of addressing that house oil
this sub:eet. His age rendered the disclaimer of amis.-
tion -ennecessary ; his oidy motive was duty to God
and. his ceuntry, ard the responsibility which rested on
a!;t who, like him, half carefully studied this question.
He looked upon this State support of Popery as a nit-
tional sin, and he trembled on the ',rink of thetprecipicc
to which the conduct o` their rulers was bringing the
eatioe. He bad now done, lie believed, his duty, an,
should therefore not apologise for having detained
:louse, but he would thank the house for the attelitiei
vith which it had listened to him, and at the same tim,
:is begged to repudiate the intention of wounding the
individual feelings of any hole member. The honour
member concluded by moving—" That this house do
resolve itself into a committee, for the purpose of con-
sidering the acts for the endowment of the College of
of Maynooth, with a view to the withdrawal of any en-
dowment out of the consolidated fund, due regard being
hart to vested rights or interests.".:
Mr. DUNLOP seconded the motion. He did so aF
a Dissenter, believing that Maynooth College was,
in fact, a buttress of the Irish Established Church,
which could never be interfered with so long as the
Maynooth college was upheld. He dwelt at great length
on the evidence given before the commission as to the
power exercised by the priests at parliamentary elections.
Mr. PO LLARD-URQUHA R.T deprecated the agita
tion of the question at this critical period, when the
Ministers and the nation most feel seriously uneasy at
the state of our army abroad. He accounted for and
excused the conduct of the Catholic peasant in seeking
advice from the 'priest as to his politic-it conduct, on th-
e .round that the priest was, in many cases, the only
edinated person with whom the voter came in contact
Violent expressions were sometimes charged against the
Rbman Catholic clergy ; hut it was to be remembered
that exaggerated language was common to ail parties oe
the other side of the Channel, and as a set-off against
that, he reminded the house that to the Roman Cetholie
clergy was to be attributed the complete and total
failure of the insurrection on 18.48. He was willing,
however, to give up the gross to Maynooth on condi-
tiost of Mr. Spooner aerie:An to abolish the Irish Est o
'non. member agreed to do that he
hlishinent. Till the.
would continue te, vote for the Maynooth grant.
Mr. SCROI.EFIELD roe to move the anaendmens
to Mr. ST:etioner's motion of which he had given notice,
Viz.--`4. To leave out all the words after the word con-
sidraring,' and to insert r all grants and endowments for
ecClesia-tical purposes, whether charged on the Conso-
lidated Fund or annually voted by Parliament, with a
Yeiw to their withdrawal, due regard being had to vested
rights and intere-ts.' " He said that it mght have been
thought, after the repert .of the commi,tdoners appointed
to inquire into the teaching of the eollege ot M tyneeth,
they might have been 'spared any more of these painful
discussions. But those who thought so bad no notion
of that sleepless bigotry which was ever on the watch,
and of which his lion. friend, the member for North
Warwickshire was the ever ready and willing instru-
ment, and which he (Mr. Scholefield) belioes-1 could
' never be satisfied till it had brought every faith within
the limits of its own wretched sectarianism. (Hear,
hear.) His honourable friend had made no me-
marks on the report of the Maynooth commissioners,
but had confined himself entirely to the evidence, when
the commission was appointed to inquire into charges
against Maynooth, connected with its religious teaching,
which was said to inculcate disloyalty to the state, and
some of it to be grossly immoral. Into the religious
question, of course, the commissioners could not well go,
but they did report on the points relating to loyalty and
morality.. He then read two extracts from that report.
He denied that there was any indication of civil aggres-
sion on the part of the Church of Rome ; if there was,
he would jein with any one in the most stringent regu-
lations to pet it down.. Butethe danger lay in the other
direction, for he believed there was a portion of the
Church of England who were bent on showing hostility,
not to the Church of Rome only or dissent, but who were
persecuting such pious and eminent members of their
own Church as Mr. Bennett of Frorne, Dr.- Pusey, and
the Bishops of Oxford and Exeter. He warned the
Dissenters not to trust to this section of the
aCnlecuercillii,a,,wih,loisiling
would be glad enough to get their assist-
Aleynootle. but who would not join
the Dissenters in return in removing other endowments.
For his part, he was ready to vote against all endow-
ments, but he would not attack Maynooth alone. lie
shouldnmbeusabßdoirtslniosrhnuevdG.edEt
moved, as an amendment, that all ecclesiastical giants
turged
chargest at theof reportim m o roafl
iithye
mad
naiNissTo.er
against the teachers of Maynooth—denied that, consider-
ing the peculiar circumstance of Ireland, the power of
the priesthood was an unmixed evil—denounced the Es-
tablished Church in Ireland as an evil which, if the Irish
members had done their duty, would long ago have been
' carted away as so much rubbish—and concluded by
strongly urging that the position of atiiirs in this coun-
try, her alliance with three Roman Catholic ,states, and
the necessity for the assistance of the Irish people in
fighting the battles of England would tend greatly to
the assertion of the rights-of the Roman Cattle tics of that
country.

iMr. J. A. SMITH said he could not believe :the Roman
Catholic Church was so poor as had been plead. td, Eince it
was able to erect, in Loudon and elsewhere, , such mag-
nificent edifices. He contended that the ac, t of 1845
had not answered its purpose as a measure m `concilia-
tion ; for the papal aggres,ion had occurred sir ice then ;
and the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland had not be-
come more Moderate, or more hiendiy to the • constitu-
tiori. He supported Mr. Spoonei's motion.
Mr. BLAND would oppose both the motion and the
amendment. If he were to attack religious endo wruents
at all he would level the firstattlek at the Estai dished
Church. He defeLded Maynooth from the ch argeB
brought krZzat NI tct2cLiug, Lupusuing tht DlAl).lctia

of some of the witnesses relied on by the other Bide, end
concluded by deprecating the introd actioti of this agitat-
ing topic at a time when we .wtre in a great war, and
engaged with Roman Catholic allies.
Mr. HORSFALL assured hon, members who took an
opposite view to himself that it was not his desire, in
what he was about to say; to be at all offensive to them.
The question in his mind was, not what evidence could
be adduced'against Maynooth, Int whether the teaching
of the Church of Rome was beneficial to the people of
Ireland. The kon. member for North Warwickshire
had stated that the evidence which had been laid on the
table of the house was a fraud. He (Hr. Horsfali)
thought it was incumbent on her Majesty's Government
to have that charge either proved or disproved. The
hon. member for Birmingham thought proper to accuse
a el-re/quail of the• Church of England, Mr. Hobart
Seymour, of uncharitableness. He would have done
better if he' had answered his arguments instead of play-
ing upon words. Mr. Seymour said the Roman Catho-
lic clergy might be educated with the laity in Trinity
College, Dublin ; and he (Mr. Horsfall) bad yet to learn
that any harm would have resulted from their associat-
ing with their Roman Catholic lay friends and their
Protestant lay friends who were receiving their edu-
cation at that institution. Mr. Seyinour showed
that the whole requirements of Ireland were 2 260
priests, that there were 420 generally being educated
at Maynooth. It was es!a,biisheil that 56 deaths
took place annually, and, as it required four years
for the education of a priest, and as four times
56 made 224, that left 193 inure than the requirements
of Ire'and. His main argument, however, was that the
teaching of the Roman Catholic religion was .not bene-
ficial to Ireland. The hon. $.,0 en t!e ti an then 'proceeded to
quote the well-known passage in Mr. Macaulay's "Fiji-
shjwing that in Switzerland, in Ger-
rde'l"and the tra,vel kr could see at once when
tithir:eiracynpt a
Roman Citik,l it.: into a Protestant dis-
yao:rfstateEtiditindfgtri:i'a;e superior culture and civilisation observa-
ble in the latter ; that the saine rue applies in America ;
and that during the last three centuries the policy of the
Church of Rome has been to depress the intellect, the
consequence of which has been a general decadence of the
prosperity of Roman Cad belie c4luittyies; while Protestant
countries have risen in the same ratio. The hon. member
proceeded to say that there was another test which he
would apply as to the teaching of the Church of Rome.
Look at the state of crime in foreign countries. There
were official documents which gave the following returns
of the crime of murder. The con victione for murder in Ro•
man Catholic Ireland were 19 to the ; in Roman
Catholic Belgium, 18; in RiTnan Catholic France, 31 ;
in Roman Catholic Atiora, 36 ; in Roman Catholic Ba-
varia, 69 ; in Roman Catholic Sardinia, 20; in Roman Ca-
tholic Lombardy, 45 ; in Roman Catholic Tuscany, 56 ; in
the Papal states, 113 ; in Roman C &odic Sicily, 90; in
Roman Catholic Naples, 174 ; le Protestant Ell.Yiand, 4.
(Hear.) These figures showed the different effect of
Protestant teaching from that of the Church of Rome.
It was on that that he grounded his argument that they
were not justified in voting money for the:teaching of a
religion which they, as Protestants, believed was not
iteneficial to the people. His hon. friend,' the member
far NortkWarwickshire alluded to this as a question of
compact. He was quite aware that at the tine of the
union there was a certain amount voted for Maynooth,
but he denied that there was airy compact. He agreed
!n the opinion of the right hon. therni,er for Oxford,. in
that work of his, which was published a few years ago,
in which he said that the grant to Maynooth was vici-
ous in principle, and that it would be a thorn. io the
sides of the people of this country so. long as it was suf-
fered to c, ,n inue.

Mr. HORS MAN refused to fellow most of- the argu-
ments on the other - side, because he maintained
that this was not a religious, but a political ques-
tion. He maintained farther, that as a political
question it was one link in the chain of concilia-
tory measures which hail been estatarshed of late
years, and whieh was equally honourable to Hug-
land and beneficial to Ireland. He entered at some
leroh into the history of the college and' its sup-
port by all the successive Administrations which had
existed from its first est-tblishment, and from thence
made an appeal to the house not now to disturb it. The
hon. member for Warwickshire formerly called for in-
quiry as a means of exposing the immoral teaching of
Maynooth. Inquiry had been granted, and he appealed
equally now to the Catholic whom he maligned and the
Protestant who'll he alarmed whether the inquiry had
borne out his charge. He ridiculed Mr. Spooner's
charges respecting the condensing of the evidence and
the assumption of ecclesiastical titles, and said that,
however horrible these things might be in themselves,
they did not affect the teaching of Maynooth. The hon.
member for Greenock, who seconded the motion, im-
pugned every ground on which the hon. member fir
Warwick hire rested his case. (Hear, hear.) The
member for Warwickshire asked them to agree to his
motion, or the Church would be in' danger ; the mem.
her for Greeimck supported ir, because he wished to
'overthrow the Established Ce ii. ce. (Hear, hear.)
The' member for Warwickshire said, if the motion was
not agreed to, the Rona,' Catholics would gain the
ascendancy. The member for Greenock thought the
destruction of Maynooth would be the strongest I.ilow
'et the Established Church. (Hear, hear.) He appealed
to the Dissenters to lend their airs to deArey Maynooth,
and•they would then have the supeort of the ROlll3ll
Catholics of Ireland in their attack on the Estahlished
Church. (Hear.) The evidence of the witness quoted by
that hon. gentleman rho veil ho.v tuifoulided were the
charges made against the die'.utit tau4-ht at Maynootii in
:-•eretice.to the temporal power of the Pope. The ,x-
Ltence of such .wa,‘ Oiitinetly denied. The hon. member
f 4 Warwickshire had called for inqu r, but now he Ana
not disposed to abide by the result. Wh itever the lion.
gentleman had stated most t I
soeing.y was proved to have
been stated most erroneou-ly. The charges made most
fairly were found to be charged most urrfairiy ; he now
shifted his ground, amid reeked them to come to a couclu-
directiy the revue e of tlev, the
: iinniiseioners hal drawn. He put the Tieetion. indeed,
tin blear and simple groun Is. He said ho cared not for
the inquiry or the report, but objected to the endowment
of Popery, beceuse it was the endow went of error. It the
matter was placed in that point of view, the question at
once arose, were they prepared to reverse the policy pur-
sued for so many years back ? This was mot a solitary in-
stance cf payment to the Roman Catholic religion. They
made Parliamentary grants to many religions other than
the Established, to-Diesenters, to Roman Catholics, and
even to some who did not come within the denomina-
tion of Christian. They supported Catholic schools and
paid Catholic chaplains in the army and, in the navy,
for the prisons, and for the workhouses. The money paid
cut of the Consolidated Fund was not money taken fr nu
Protestants and given to arman Catholics : it was money
contributed Vali the subjects of the realm, and devoted
to education, on the ground that the State was bound to
give all children such a moral and religiime education as
could best conduce to the wellare of the State. (Hear.)
rise hen. gentleman wished to be retrogressive in his
efficy ; but since 1829 the whole policy of this country
eel been pr igreasive. Measures in favour of Catholics
tsprtbeehhatsrniae'aipinmi',ool)nnbfereonl n ptahses eedv i ' inle " cl
eB3l, '32, '36, '4O, and '45, when
Maynooth was endowed by tie bill of Sir Robert Peel.
Why had this been done ? Because the Catholics hail ob-
tained their constitution it rights by the voice of their fel-
mye subjects, and had thus compelled one conce-sioa after
mother. Hence the principle was that the national re-
ligion of Ireland had been rec ig,nised, and had been
nude the care of the State. The fact was that religion
inlet be considered not ae asectarian, but as a eateries'
Affair. He objected to the terin " toleration." In England
:he' majority were Protestants, in Ireland the majority
sere Catholics. The majority of the whole were Protest-
ants ; but taking all Europe' the tnaj iiity were Catholics.
What was to be done ? Were the tAm faiths to be placed
in constant hostility? They had. ried this up to 1829 ;
nod since then the policy of oineei•sion had been tried
with the- utmost beneit at every step.. (Hear.) The
people of Ireland were equal iii numbers to those of
many of the Catholic states of Europe ; and what people
had passed so nobly through suffering, and displ iyed ,-o
much virtuous forb._a:aace. (Hear.) In everythirg
that dignified humaa nature—i i bravery, fortitude, and
reeltrance—they were entitled to rank with ourselves..
(Cheers.) How absurd then to talk of toleration with re-
ference to such a people. (Hear.) Allusion had been .
made to the influence of the priests in Ireland ; but it
should be reinembered trat they felt with the people and
for the people. In no other country had the priests
been so much identified with the people. They could
not say that the jaw or the government had been the
friends of the people ; for' they bad only known law or
eeyernment by their severity. But the priests had been
attached to and identified with tedr flocks, and had
done their duty conscientiously. (Hear, hear.) White
adhering to and cherishing the faith in which be had
been brought up, he sympathised with every faith
And every man who wag the object of oppression.
(Cheers.) So far from apologising for the course he
took, he thought it was the duty of Mr. Spooner
and his friends to apologise for the course they were
taking ; they were using their Nth am a means of inflict-
ing injustice. (Hear.) While vindicating the right of
gee judgment, he conceded that right to all. He
opposed this motion in the interest of charity and. good-
will ; and the more he venerated his own religion, and
wished it to be venerated by others, the more would he
hold it up as the emblem of justice and peace to all.
(Cheers.) He agreed with 'those who thought that this
motion was brought forward at a most improper time. In
Ireland all was peace, tranquillity, and prosperity ; and
would
penawrp,rl
Palmerston,
it was most unfortunate that they should raise this cause
of discord and animosity at such a period. Were the
moteMsre.r i
oSupso otnhearn's
he
speech,iin4g i
I:eido.l
motion carried, it would raise an issue more important
He talked of danger to the country and the throne ; but
of,ntytsof
thesethe
ne
a motionsur es werewh i
cpreparedhhad
beenti) cake
pursuedthe
rds in
ref late scar{ with regard to Ireland, and which had
tended inure than anything else to increase the loyalty
of the Irish people. By continuing to primote equal
laws, they. would have to say of the Qeeen, that her.
glory m. peace and her strength in war was, that she
t snloereignedAlvi.l,etirasitiuenisTrditnueafanautn innelde,
Et.ihi
te
unitedarw hearts and
people.ahne
dd ts opi ni kr eiz (Cheers.)uit
thh teh eq voicequestion
e s t
io ofn a well-
governed
as a Political question. He referred to the originalpurely
er si
ttya I- )01 i st e
Dukent o:tlll,that
ite Maynooth,tthhdaaett.n wice:,isiai
Wellingtonnet dhdooaartle,
should
,bii)i,others,:flcontended,:irße ob tenhol
eartrni,
that
tuaahncitetiliat,ttanu: tt
.ihei
seaszri
.leti-
out of the public puree. The motion was not intended
eahfieeinrtyreexodpf trie)stshede
is)yieLelolirlisi
went simply to rescind the endowinerit out of the c'oe-
priests hail become that loyal arid weli-educated body
which was anticipated from the establishment of this
liioa proofrn:e
ttoh atr,: of
ethtohepi this,
generality
eho
ren, e r:
iitridvvgereeanffoatirw,that perhaps the pi tests who took part in
mid. The question at issue he believednrwieasstswihneih7;
this grant hail any tendency to secure an intellectual
and pious priesthood. . The evidence, he thought, was
vary lyasstigiotory ea tlist poisit. ..The kiktit Wm. g.ll' •
_ . . .
:.onsidineiatnot anticipated

tleman referred to several bulls issued at various times,
p irticelarly to that "in Ccena Domini." from which he
argued the Pope's authority in opposition to the law.
It had been said that all these canons had been abro-
gated, but still he found them all reprinted in 1832.
By making these grants they enabled the iris-ts
in Ireland to carry out these canons, thus brinjeg
them into collision with the law, and rendering them
liable to punishment. It had been argued by th right
hon. gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, that the
state did not give Protestant money for the maintenance
of a Catholic institution, inasmuch as the money Ka
voted for a national object ; but that was clearly a
fallacy. The state policy was to get a domestic priest-
hood ; but the fact was, that the money granted had
been applied to the inculcation of ultramontarie views
int) the minds of the student,. The grant of 30,0001.
a year wa, an insult to the Roman Catholic clergy of
Ireland, and was'no doubt; regarded by them as a mere
sop to keep them quiet.
On the motion of Mr. O'BRIEN the debate was them.
wijourned, sal at the instance of Mr. SPOONER it was
adjourned to the 6tli of June.