The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENINGS MAY 18 1855

It was • not the bill
he proposed
it
refer
rto the committee, but
related
to (liar
.
the subject ; because the . referring the bill would
be too narrow a proceeding to accomplish the
object he bad in view. The subject was one well worthy
consideration, that of enabling the poor, or : those
who, from want of information or ignorance, could
n 0,.. successfully prosecute a wrong before a court of
justice, whilst, on the other hand, factious and un-
founded prosecutions might be stopped. At the same
time, the house should bear is mind the bill propdsed to
place a great responsibility and-dilcretion in the hands
of a public officer, who would be actuary in trust
through the instrumentality of a variety of public agents.
,(Hear, Lear, hear.) It would be impossible for him
to investigate or conduct the whole of the cases
that would be brought before them, or decide
whether they should be carried on or not, and that being
so it appeared to him (Lord Palmerston) the subje'ct was
one well deserving serious and deliberate consideration,
requiring as
,a preliminary great information andi inves-
tigation. He suggested, whether the bill was read a
Ithird time or not, that further proceedings on it should
be suspencLid, and that the house should proceedl to the
appointment of a committee to whom the subject should
be referred. ,

Mr. PACKE was glad to hear that the hon. and
gallant member had. consented to withdraw his bill, in
order that it might be sent to a select committee ; he
hoped that committee would have power to send fur
papers and records.
Sir F. THESIGER thought it totally unnecessary
that the hon. member should withdraw his bill, in order
that it might be referred to a select committee, because
the effect of that would be to put an end to the second
reading, as he understood the noble baronet's object
was. to move as an amendment to the motion
for the second reading that the whole subject Should
be referred to a select committee. He thought
the second reading should be postponed till after the
committee had made its report. He agreed entirely with
that amendment, and should second it.
After some'observations from Mr. I. BUTT, the second
reading of the bill was postponed, upon the understand-
ing that the whole subject should be referred to a select
committee.

so effective in checking crime that it was now proposed
to make a considerable addition to its numbers. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought his noble friend was quite
justified, after the experiment he made last session, and
the great indisposition that. was then felt to assent to
his bill, in declining to propose any measure this year.
At th,e same time, the present state of the police
question was much to be regretted, but it had been
hoped that ere this time the County Constabulary
Act would have been more universally adopted.
He was quite convinced that it would be greatly to the
advantage of those counties *who adopted it, because
where it had already been put in force a comparison of
the expense of the police with the loss the county had
previously sustained from the existence of crime showed
a balance in favour of the county. (Hear.) It appeared
now, however, that they were going back, because,
while they wanted a perfect system of police applicable
to the whole country, they were asked to adopt a mea-
sure based upon the old parish constabulary principle.
It would, therefore, be difficult to assent to the second
reading of this bill, which was rather a retrogression
than a movement in advance. (Hear.) •
Mr. HENLEY bad looked for some evidence of
the deplorable increase of crime which was said to have
taken place, but he confessed he could find none, nor
had he been able to discover that the state of those
counties where the rural police had been adopted
was better than that of those counties where it had
not. The great difficulty in the matter was this, that
if you got a rural police you could not dispense with
the parish constable ; it was a delusion to sup-
pose that if you had a rural police you could get rid of
the parish constable. As for the notion that crime was
on the increase, so far as he was able to judge, he be-
lieved it had greatly diniinished both in quantity and
quality.
Mr. CAN ENDISH hoped the house would allow the
bill to pass to a second reading.
Mr. PACKE said crime had diminished in the county
to which he belonged since the rural police system had
been adopted there, and upon the strength of that expe-
riment he would recommend other counties to try it.
Mr. ROBERT PALMER said it, ought to be made
a Government question, for it was just as much the duty
of the Government to prevent as to punish crime. Go-
vernment paid for the prosecution of criminalS at quarter
sessions and assizes, and upon the same principle they
ought to pay, or at least to contribute towards the main-
tenance of, a force whose chief function would be to pre-
, vent crime. But, be that as it sight, he protested against
the charge of the police being entirely thrown upon real
property, when it was established as much if not more for
the protection of personal property than real property.
Mr. DEEDES replied, and said that if the Govern-
ment would state their intention of bringing forward a
measure on the subject, he would at once withdraw the
present
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be read a third time
on Tuesday, the 22d May.

PLACES OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP REGIS-
TRATION BILL:

On the motion of Mr. A. PELLA.TT, this bill was
read-a second time, and was ordered to be committed to-

ITIGITO W.

DISSENTERS' MARRIAGES BILL.;
Mr. CHEETHAM moved that the housse resolve it-
self into committee on'this bill. •
Mr. HENLEY
,objected to the bill, which, in his
opinion, would have an injurious effect on Dissenters
and Churchmen.

Mr. COWPER said the main objection to the bill was,
that it would diminish the amount of publicity now re-
quired by the law to rather too great,an extent. The bill
repealed the publicity now required before the board of
guardians, but it did not provide any sufficient security
that the intention of the parties should be made'known
so as to give an opportunity for the interference of
those who might be able to detect the impropriety or
illegality of the marriage. Then, again, .the amount of
time between notice to the registrar and the celebration
of the marriage was not sufficient. He thought the bill
required more consideration, and trusted that the hon.
gentleman would not press it at the present moment.
Mr. CHEETHAM offered some observations in ex-
planation of the provisions of the bill, but they did not
reach the gallery.
Mr. WALPOLE believed that the bill, as it now
stood, would tend to encourage clandestine marriages ;
and as there were serious objections to many of the
clauses, he would suggest to the hon. gentleman the
propriety of reconsidering them, and submitting the bill
in an amended shape on a future day. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it very natural that Dis-
senters should feel an objection with respect to the pre-
sent mode of proceeding before boards of guardians ; but
when the hon. gentleman proposed an alteration in that
respect, he ought to provide some sufficient mode of
publicity. (Hear.) Re should be glad to forward the ob-
ject of the hon. member so far as it tended to the relief
of Dissenters, but he thought the bill required more care-
ful consideration. (Hear.)
Mr. T. CHAMBERS said the bill contained some
provisions which were quite unnecesswry to attain the
object of the hon. member, and. which might injuriously
affect all classes, Churchmen as well as Dissenters.
Mr. CHEETHAM-then withdrew his motion, and
said be proposed-going into committee pro forma on
Monday next, for the purpose of introducing certain
1 amendments to meet the objections which had been made
to the bill as it now stood.

PERSONAL ESTATES OF INTESTATES BILL.
On the motion of 'Mr. L. KING, the house resolved
itself into committee on this bill.

On clause 1 being propbsed,

1 •
Mr. HENLEY expressed a doubt whether it would be
safe to proceed with the bill in the absence of the law
officers of the Crown, seeing that the change proposed
would alter the whole law tor the distribt!tipa of perso-
nal property in the kingdom.
Mr. COLLIER said the bill proposed a serious alter-
ation in the rights of the heir-at-law, and he considered
that alteration most objectionable. The other portions
of the bill he thought would have a beneficial operation.
Mr, MALINS thought the time had arrived when
customs which 'interfered with the general ri,zhts of pro-
perty should be abolished, and the law of intestacy
should be made uniforlo, and he therefore gave his sup-
port-to that portion of the bill which proposed to abolish
the customs of London, and York. He also approved
of that part of the bill which-proposed to assimilate the
law with regard to advances by the father and the mo-
ther, but he objected to the proposed alteration with re-
gard to the rights of the heir-at-law. He would recom-
mend the hon. member to confine his bill to the two
first objects. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. LOCKE KING c msented to' withdraw the part
of the bill which was objected to by the hon. and learned
member (Mr. Malins).
Sir F. THESIGER suggested that the operation of
the act should not commence immediately upon its re-
cei nng the royal assent, but that an interval of three or
six months should be allowed.

Mr. MONTAGU CHAMBERS commended the man-
ner in which this bill was drawn, as being a model for
ail acts, because it contained the whole law upon the
subject with which it dealt.
The clause was agreed to, as were clauses down to
clause 9 inclusive.

Clause 10 wa3 postponed, it order that words might
be inserted to,extend the operation of the act to Ireland.
The remaining clauses were agreed to, and a clause
was added providing that the act shall not come into
effect until the Ist November, 1855.

The house then resumed, and the bill was reported.
The other orders were postponed.
GRAND JURIES.

Mr. BOWYER obtained leave to introduce a bill to
facilitate the despatch of business before grand juries in
England and Wales,' by providing for the swearing of
witnesses before the grand jury instead of, as at present,
in court.

RAILWAYS (IRELAND).
Mr. I. BUTT asked leave to introduce a bill to con-
tinue the Railway Act (Ireland) Bill, 1851.
NEW SOUTH WALES GOVERNMENT—WASTE
LANDS (AUSTRALIA).
. Lord J. RUSSELL moved for leave to introduce two
bills, one "to enable her Majesty to assent to a bill as-
amended of the Legislature of New South Wales, to con-
fer a constitution on New South Wales, and to grant a
civil list to her Majesty ;" the other, "to repeal the acts
of Parliament now in force respecting the disposal of the
waste lands of the Crown in her Majesty's Austratian
colonies, and to make other proviiion in lieu thereof."
His lordship said that tae bill ref-Tring to the conetitu-'
tion of New South Wales was substantially similar in its
provisions to that in regard to the colony of Victoria,
which a few nights since he obtained leave to introduce.
Mr. LOWE objected to the form of the measure in re-
gard to New South Wales, because, though intended to
confer a constitution upon the colony, it would, he be-
lieved, have no such effect. Its effect, on the contrary,.
would be to render nugatory the votes of the L ouse, and to
leave the matterjust where it now stood. The noble lord
proposed to omit some of the sections to which the colo-
nists attached the greatest importance,' and then pro-
posed, not that her Majesty should give her conseut to
the bill, but to enable the Colonial Legislature to pass
the bill if they thought proper. He believed that if the
bill were to be passed in its Peesent shape it would be a
perfect nullity, and would not have the slightest effect.
He maintained•that if Parliament did legislate for the
colonies, and take the matter in its own hand, it should
do so upon grounds of its own, and not at the dictation
oC the Legislative Assembly of the colony. The present
act, unlike the act for Victoria, was directly opposed to
the feelings of the people of the colony. He objected to
the bill, because it perpetuated a most unjust division of
the electoral system in the colony, and proposed to create
a nominated instead of an elective Upper 'Chaeiber.
Another ground of objection to the bill was the enor nous
civil list proposed to be conferred by the bill„illud which
bad been calculated 'upon the greaVy increased salaiies
which had been, given in consequence of the deraege-
merit atendirig the discovery of gold in the colony, and
net upon a tfltieer
whatrn a
bel and n
had
sa
ttautreadl swt
tthe
ef
stph,ei
ens i
trusted,e
tg
t.
tfi)
o the hill bfa tah eb e be inl 1 ii
!erlfd, ut
he 'adt
I iandrre/tiiilsarobi
ji.leOcdtek.mins
tohtihcela
all) to give Consent, to p
noble lo
rd,
who
odious measUre; He would suggest to
the house would not considerroicteebdeicno4mifnagrthweirthviitistbil.
this
sub-
ject, whether it would not
t lin for consideration to
as well as that. for Senth A 11 ra ,
who had,, no doubt,
come
somewhat
betterwhat to newly
sendt° the
b,ll
whe-
ther they might not be able to
of .an
the Australian
satisfactory law adapted to the whole
a select committee for the purdpeovseiseofsoctonnesui considering
and
colonies.
Lord J. denied that he bad come newly to
•he had paid. considerable anen.
troll to the matter, `and-it was in -consequence the .
decision to which he had then arrived, and which- was
supported by the House of Commons, tbatle
now asked
the subject, for in 1850
the house to consent at least to the introduction of the
present bill. What the hon. member proposed was, in
effect, that after having had a legislative sanction, and

an assurance from the Secretary of State for the Colonies,
that the Crown would gladly receive from them any mea-
sure by which they proposed to create a coestitution fur
themselves, the House of Com mons should no w turn round
and say that it would completely ignore the while of
their conduct, and throw aitogether aside the plan cf the
constitution which they hail adopted. (Hear.) With re-
spect to the labours of a select committee in searching
fir a constitution for the colony, he thought it would
give rise to very great disappointment if legislation on
the subject were to be postponed, as :it most certainly
wculd by this step, for another year. The boo, me ti ber
had taken a technical objection to the form in which the
bill had been introduced, but which he admitted might
be easily remedied by the insertion of a few words in the
clause. Upon this point, however, he thought the hon.
member was in error, because he (Lord John Russell)
understood from the legal authority usually employed
in framing the bills in the Colonial-office, that the oill
would be perfectly efficient for its object. He considered
it a groundless assertion on the part of the hon. mem-
ber, that the bill had been framed by a legislative coun-
cil elected by an imperfect and unequal system of elec-
tion ; because if they were to refuse to receive any mea-
sures from the colony until its representative system was
reformed by an act of that house, it would be to delay
legislation for an indefinite period, and to render nuga-
tory a large proportion of the measures which had been
already passed by the legislature of that colony. Ob-
jections had also been taken to the act of the Colonial
ieegislature, on the ground that one of its chambers con-
sisted of a nominee council ; but there was nothing in the
principle of a nominated council abhorrent to the theories
and feelings of this country, and it was only until very
recently that any other than councils of that sort existed
in any of our colonies. Elected and nominated cham-
bers had' both their advantages ; but even if elected
councils were considered the best, he could not
believe that a nominated chamber was so entirely vicious
and bad as to justify the house in refusing to receive
with the attention which it might deserve every !ilea-
measure which might be pasied by such a council. (Hear.)
The hon. and learned gentleman had admitted that he
had himself considerable .difficulty in determining what
would be the proper course to adopt. But where was the
use of taking hold of trivial objections and of throwing
impediments in the way of a settlement of this question?
There were two ways in which the hen. and learned
gentleman did not think it would be satisfactory ; and
then he proposed an entirely new mode, which was to
say to the colbuists who wished a constitution that they
should not have it until all the colonial constitutions
were thrown into hotcbpot before a committee of the
House of Commons, and until that committee should de-
termine what was the best theoretical constitution which
would most. suit their own views. That is, that
the colonists should wait for another year, and that then
they might have the satisfiction of gett•ng as good a con-
stitution a 4 the select committee of the House of Cem-
mons could frame. He (Lord J. Russell) could not see
hoW the nenrse proposed, by the hon. and learned gen-
tleman could solve the difficulty, and he certainly thought
it was beter to take the Legislature of New South Wales
for a guide than to adopt any such proposition.
Mr. DUFFY concurred in all the objections stated
by the hon, and, learned member for Kidderminster.
This country had offered a boon to the colonists, and
now it was proposed to make a dishonest attempt to
render null and void the offer made to New South
Wale% He contended-that the Legislative Chamber
would be nominated by the very class which the colo-
nists wanted to get rid of, and be complained greatly
that the constitution of the council could not be changed
without the consent of two-thirds of its members
Lord RUSSELL begged to set the hon. member
right on that point. It was proposed to give power by
the act to effect that chauge by, the usual majority of
the triernie-re of council.

Mr. DUFFY could not see why an upper nominated
charubt,r, having been repudiated in the Cape of Good
Hope, in New Zealand, ,and elsewhere, should be in-
flicted on that colony. The whole of the colonists were
opposed t, the nominated tipper chamber, and they had
expressed their opposition to it in the most vehement
terms in their petitions. An examination of the peti-
tions showed the remarkable result that there were
12,15 E signatures against the act, whereas there were
only 228 signatures to the petitions in favour of the act
and 48 for some modifications in it. It was plain, then,
that the wishes of the colonists were utterly opposed to
the bill, which would be a perpetual source of irritation
if passed as it then stood. The colonists of New Si nth
Wales would look to New Zealand, to Victoria, and to
Van Diemen's Land, and they would never be content
without an elective chamber. He should oppose the
measure in all its stages.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS entreated the noble lord not to
pursue any course in opposition to the wishes of the colo-
nists. Hehoped he would not press the bill, but that he
would be convinced from the information he had received
that such a measure was directly the reverse of what the
people of New South Wales desired. He thought it
would be better to send back the bill to the colony, and
let the people elect another assembly.
Mr. J, BALL said the inconvenience of discussing a
bill before it was laid oh the table of the house was ma-
nifested during this debate, for hon. members had not
had an opportunity of reading! the bill, and therefore
their objeutions were in some instances groundless. This
was the case in regard to one important point. It was
proposed to give a power by the bill to put the constitu-
tion on the same f,oting as the other' laws, aud, instead
of requiring a majority of two-thirds for its alteration, to
require only an ordinary majority. (Hear.) With re-
spect to 'the petitions on which the hen. member laid
such stress, it was well known that the signatures to the
petitions laid on the table of that house were not always
a safe guide in determining the opinion of the people on
the merits of a measure, and in the case of these colonial
petitions he was satisfied that those signatures did not
fairly represent the sentiments of the people of New
South Wales upon this measure.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
Leave was also given to Lord John Russell to bring
in a bill to repeal the.acts of Parliament now in force
respecting the disposal of the waste lands of the Crown
in her Majesty's Australian colonies, and to make other
provisions in lieu thereof.
The New South %Vales Government Bill and the
Waste Lands Australia Bill were brought in by Lord J.
Russell, and read a first time.

I. BUTT brought in his Railways Ireland Bill,
which was read a first time.

Tie house adjourned at a quarter past ten.

LOSS OF THE SHIP JOHN.

FALMOUTH, MAY 15.
The bench sat yesterday, when further evidence was
taken. On assembling again to-day the bench did not
consider A necessary to call any further witnesses in the
case, and, after the attorney fir the owners had made
some comments on the evidence, the magistrates, assisted
by Capt. Robertson, unanimously agreed to make the
following report to the Board of Trade

. .
"That the ship was provided with four boats—three of
which were efficient, the other doubtful ; that the lifeboat
was neither stowed-in the proper place, nor prepared for
immediate service, as directed by the act ; sod to these
circumstances probably the staving and loss of the lifeboat,
anti the delay iu endeavouring to get out the longboat, are
to bo attributed.

" That, with the exception of one signal lantern, there
were no means on board the ship of making a signal of dis-
tress by night. We think that, had there been adequate
means of making such signals, and had they been shown
when the ship first got on shore, while the weather was
moderate, the boats would have come off at an earlier
period, and thus have rescued a much larger portion of
passengers.

Ttrat, with rev ect to the aboye deviations from the
provisions of the Passengers' Act, we consider that the
Governtrient emigration officer and owners of the ship are
culpable. _ _

"That, either from the ignorance or gross and culpable
negligence of the captain, the courss steered by his orders
were the direct cause of bringing the vessel en the Manacle
Rocks.

" That after the vessel struck the conduct of the captain
was most, reprehensible in every respect; he appears to
have I aken no active means to save the lives of the passen-
gers, did not assist them to leave the ship, quitted her
himself while many passengers were still in the rigging,
and he and the mate were the only two persons who se-
cured anything for themselves, the captain saving his
cloak and the mate his quadrant.
"That the chief mate appears to be ignorant of his du-
ties and responfibilities, and is culpable in not having per-
sonally rendered assistance to the passengers.
" That the conduct of the crew, with the exception of
Andrews, Elder; and one or two others, appears to have
been very bad, hut would possibly have been different had
a better example been sei, them by their ()Mears.
"That the conduct of the chief boatman of the Coast-
guard and his men, and of a fisherman, named Jas. Hill,
and others associated with thew, in going to and taking
the passengers and crew off the wreck, was highly coin-
na”ndable.

" Tha circumstances of this case render it our duty to
suggest to your lordships that in all passenger ships the
first mate should be required to have a certificate_ of com-
petency, instead of one of service? only; and that the
numbsr and nature of the night signals required to be pro-
7ided by the ownersof passenger ships should be specified."

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SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TATTERSALL'6.-YESTERD

Subscribers mustered numerously, and the business
that was transacted on the Derby presented features • f
considerab'e importance. Before entering into details,
however, it is necessary to state that the task of sepa-
rating the chaff from the grain was never more difficult.
De Clara was very distinctly in the ascendant : at the
commencement, sonic transactions at 5 to 1 and 9 to 2
were quietly booked; but towards the close there was so
strong a rush to "get on," that offers of 4 to 1 and 7 to
2 Were caught np with avidity.
Lord of the Isles, recovered from the depression which
he experienced at Bsth, was backed for a large sum of
money ; 6,000 to 1,000 was taken in one bet; afterwards
5 to 1 was booked to several hundreds ; 1,000 even
would have been betted he beats anything, " bar one."
Wild Dayrell; meantime, had a down ward tendency.
Notwithstanding a number of investments at 5 to 1, he
dropped to 6 to 1, taken and offered.
Rifleman was backed for nerly 3001., at 5 to 1 ; and
Kingstown was supported in good quarters, at 12 to 1.
The other bets on this event were to comparatively
small sums.