The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock. _

PETITIONS.
Lord SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from
Bath, signed by 1,543 persons, praying the intervention
of England in support of the restoration of Poland.

TICKETS OF LEAVE.
Lord ST. LEONARDS wished to inquire whether her
Majesty's Government have adopted any new scheme
for granting tickets of leave to convicts. The noble lord
Galled the attention of their lordships to the question in-
volved. When it was determined to abolish transportation
as a general punishment, the question to be solved was,
what was to be the substitute for transporation 'I • It was
proposed in respect to convicts sentenced to seven or ten
years to introduce a system of penal servitude. Power
was, therefore, given to the magistrates, whenever they
thought proper, to grant licences to those sentenced to
transportation in the shape of tickets of leave, by which
the convict was permitted to go to certain districts in-
dicated in these licences, such districts to be limited to
the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands. The
noble lord then entered into a statement to show that
the system was fraught with the utmost danger. The
noble lord said he had already stated in this house the
cruelty exercised towards those persons who had re-
ceived tickets of leave, by following up those per-
sons by policemen in plain clothes ; and there-
fore it was a mockery to say that that un-
fortunate individual had received 'any benefit from the
system as at present pursued. The noble lord then re-
ferred to the statistics of crime, and contended that the
results had been anything but favourable. After having,
adduced several cases in which the most lamentable re-
sults followed the discharge of those persons, he sub-
mitted that there had not been sufficient care taken in
granting tickets of leave.
Earl GRANVILLE said the Government regretted
as much as the noble lord the working of the ticket-of-
leave system. With regard to whether the Government
hrad any new scheme, he regretted that he could not give
an answer that would be satisfactory to the noble and
learned lord. He had brought down a report,
with the intention of reading some portions of it
to their lordships ; but he thought it would oc-
cupy too much time if he were now to do so.
Some of the statements made by the noble lord, he must
say, were exaggerated, and, with respect to the watching
of persons by the police after they bad received tickets
of leave, he begged to inform the noble and learned
lord that only one case had been reported to the
Home O. ffice, and he did not think that he
would wish the Government to act upon this one single
case. He begged to inform the noble and learned lord
that Sir G. Grey intended to collect materials with re-
spect to this question, and, when he had done so, they
would be laid before their lordships.
Earl GREY said if this country were obliged to yield
to the colonies everything they demanded, the sooner it
gave them up the better. The colonists could not com-
plain of injustice, as they wont originally to a penal colony,
for this sake of the advantage that convict labour afforded
them. He preferred transportation to the present mode
of penal servitude, and he thought that Western Australia
could take all the convicts this country would be likely to
wad.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that no member of
their lordships' house concurred more than he did in the
necessity that existed for transportation. The experience
acquired during many years'adne i nistration of criminal law
had convinced him that transportation answered all the
ends of punishment more than anything else • for it con-
tained the two essential ingredients of punishment—the
maximum of correction and the minimum of suffering.
But, unfortunately, however advantageous it might have
been to this country, it was the opinion of the last two Go-
vernments, and also of their lordships, that the time had
come when transportation must be, he would not say abo-
lished, for it had not been abolished, but to a great extent
cut down and modified. He believed that about 1,000 con-
victs were the most that could now be annually sent out of
the country. The noble earl who last addressed their lord-
ships considered that the necessity for the modification of
transportation was too nastily assumed, and that the feeling
in the colonies was brought about by unjustifiable language
held by certtin individuals at home, who sought for some-
__

thing they did not desire. He (the Lord Chancellm) con-
fessed that, to a great extent, he was inclined to agree in
that view of the case; but, from whatever cause it had
arisen, the feeling was too great to be resisted. It was
felt to be impossible to continue to send out convicts in the
face of the remonstrances that were made on the subject.
The noble earl said our colonies were not worth keeping if
we were to yield everything they demanded; but the ques-
tion was this—when there came repeated remonstrances
against ear loading those rising communities with the off-
scouring of our criminal population, was that a complaint
it would have been just and safe to resist? It was neces-
sary that an experiment should be made. When it•was said
that an experiment must be made, he thought it of necessity
followed that a bill similar to that which their lordships
had passed should be brought in. • If convicts could not be
sent abroad, they must be imprisoned at home. What he
proposed, and whattheir lordships adopted; was this, that
-whereas there had been a very well-known system of substi-
tuting terms of imprisonment at Milbank for certain terms
of transportation, that which had been done' 'by the Exe-
cutive should thenceforward be done by the Legislature.
The terms, which were said to be short, wore the exact
terms that had been in use. The man who was s2ntenced
to transportation for seven years was by the universal
system imprisoned for four years; for ten years, seven

were substituted, and eo on. As to the question how fer
the Government had acted wisely in carrying out the en-
actment of the Legislature, it had been said, over and over
again, that the whole dealing with this subject was neces-
sarily an experiment ; and, looking to the report of Col.
Jcbb, he thought it would be impossible to deny that the
system was working well. There might be individual
cases of hardship, but the general result was, that persons,
undergoing first imprisonment, and then penal labour, and
who then get out on tickets-of-leave—the result was, that
a great proportion of them turned out comparatively ho-
nest and useful members of society. It was a plausible
statement that an effectual system of registration and con-
trol would afford greater safety ; but any such system of
registration was likely to be deceptive. However, it was
beto make such an attempt, and such an attempt will
be made. The system of compelling men to report them-
selves regularly might also be tried, but he must say he
taw great difficulties in that system. There would be
great difficulty in forcing a man who had got into work,
perhaps, to resort to the county town, or to some central
office, there to report himself. (Hear, hoar.) The man
would have to get leave from his master, and it would be
a perpetual renewal of his shame. He was of opinion
that more evil than good would result from such an ar-
rangement. It might be necessary to make an experiment
of the kind, but it was one he should look to with appre-
hension.

Lord ST. LEONARDS was understood to then move
for certain returns of the numbers, &c., of 111411 who had
been liberated on tickets of lease.
• CRIMINAL LUNATICS.

Lord ST. LEONARDS said he should not trouble their

lordships long on the subject of theinquiry Of which he had
given notice, with reference to criminal lunatics. In re-
gard to the administration of the effects of lunatics a more
perfect system than the English was not anywhere to be
found. Tim laws on that subject which their lordships
had made and passed, and put into operation, left very
little to desire. But there was one most important part of
the system which had been left unprovided for—that was
the subject to which he now called their attention ; and
he wished to inn uiro whether her Majesty's Government
had any intention to erect asylums for criminal lunatics?
Earl GRANVILLE was sorry to say that a great evil ex-
isted in regard to criminal lunatics, and it was most desir-
able that proper accommodation should be provided for:them.
He was happy to state, although he would not pledge the
Government to carry the proposal into immediate effect.
that it was,in contemplation to erect an asylum for criminal
lunatics. It'was entirely a question of time, and a matter
for the consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
and the House of Commons.

Lord ST. LEONARDS expressed his gratifieation at the
statement made by the noble earl.
The. Exchequer Bille (17,183,0001.) B A was read the
second time.
THE BUSINESS OF THE COLONIAL OFFICE.

The Earl of DERBY then rose to put a question to the
Government "respecting the arrangements to be made for
the efficient discharge of the duties of the colonial depart-
ment, in the event of the prolonged absence of the
Secretary of State for the Colonies." He said - In bring-
ing forward the question of which I have given notice,
I would be very sorry to cause embarrassment in the
Ministerial arrangements ; but the subject is one of the
greatest importance, and the neglect of it must cause so
much public inconvenience, increasing day by day, that I
ant constrained to call the attention of.your lordships and
of the Government to it. I need not remind you of the
rather unusual circumstances under which Lord John
Russell accepted the office of Secretary of State for
the Colonies. That noble lord was not a member of the
Government when it was originally formed, but ho had ac-
eueptee a most important mission, and had left this country
pen it at the time when the resignation of several members
of the overnment rendered various new appointments ne-
cessary. He
was already
on the Continent, when, by tele-
tghranphhe'aaßlflt-GiGen was made to him by the oble viscount at
take the office of Crinam't Ivhether ho would be willing to
by return of post, but
of State for the Colonies, and, not
of telegraph—it is enej ?t` quicker method still—by return
that the noble lord intimated
his perfect readiness to acceptthe duties and responsibilities
of that important office,
haviniiguti,,,zpoLne lt:eh,ot office—not returning
,teLtr.,UldPkaabout to complain of the
noble lord for—
home to perform its
I think such a
course would have been injurious to thnetrea
the duties of th(
contrary,
interests, and
I am satisfied it was quite proper and wise for the noble lord
let importante
to proceed to Vienna to peform
mission with which he had been intrusted.
then the question whether his acceptance of the offieehuot-
Secretary of State for the Colonies was or was not juetiaable:
must depend alto:-eether npr a reasonable anticipateon on
the part of-the noble lord himself and the noble viscount at
the head of the Government as to the yrobable duration
of the noble lord's absence on that minion. I know that,
technically and formally, every Secretary of State_
.can
perform the duties and fuuctions of every other Secretary
of State. It ie a case of Irk juneta ono; bnt, although
that is so technically and formally—although for a certain
limited time, during the Parliamentary recess for intance,
the business of one Secretary of State may he temporal ily
administered by another—it is quite obvious, looking to
the importance and weight cf the busiucss belonging to
each of those departments, that anything like a perma-
nent arrangement of that kind must be aVery great incon-
venience and injury t) the public service. So much is that
the case that when the present war commenced it was
found necessary to divide the Secretaryship of the Colonies
into two, and to withdraw from it that which must fully oc-
cupy the attention of one Minister at a time like the pre-
sent, uamely,the bitiiness of the War Departmetit. I believe,
moreover, that there is no Minister whose presence in this
country is more necessary, and whose business can less bo
taken up by any of his colleagues, than the Secretary of
State for the Colonies. The reason is this—because there ie
no Minister whore duties are so much apart and separate
from the business of his colleagues ; none upon which in-
dividual responsibility is so great ;. none with regard to
whichthe actual knowledge of the business of the office is
sfoarnatu,3t. confined to the Minister himself. Ido not go so
concur in the axiom which I recollect was laid
down by a right hon. and learned gentleman who for many
years performed with great ability the duties of Under-Se-
cretary of State for theCzliot' ns--namely,the Cabinets were
made for the colonies ; having had some experience of
the duties of that office, I could appeal to more than one,