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London, England, 1818-02-11 00:00:00

Crown produced joint Campbell ma witness. The s
Counsel toe the Prisoner. I beg Nall° dale. storied
prelimisisry objection.. by sissies ilia they had.
had iso access to the Panne!. The Court suit', diet"
they should time upprieri for Averisms the Lord A dt-
celeste. when the latter said, • It was lily dilly to
prevent access In the Paimel. for fear he .host( he
timipered with.'—(Load crier of Hear. fro* the
Opposition Benekes.)—Now. what I coesipliiiis of is. I
that the evidence of this John Campbell, Irons the
moment he was in possersimi of the Law Officers of
the Crown up toiler time of the trust, exhibited one
' comisturil system of gross and psilistible tampering.
--(Load cries of Hear, itear.)--The Lord Ailvcr-
cafe would ullow no tampering on the side of the
lint the reverse was the case with the wit-
tier* fur the Crowu, who was tampered with to
excess.—(llear.)—The three queettwits were, us
usu.il, put to the witness, Campell. when hr came
to give his evidence ; and on his sower to the third
I ground my present motion. hi his answer to the
third he Mid' that when takeu to Glasgow gaol he
was questioned in the presence of the gaoler, the
Sheriff, the Procurator-Fiscal, sad the Solicitor-
General (of .the town). One said to him, John,
you don't know that I know so much about you us I
do. I have six Men who will swear you took the
oath. You'll do no good by concealiug the fact ;
but if you don't persist in your denial, and take
the other you'll do yourself good.' Salmon,
hr admitted, further said to him, that the Lord
Advocate was then in Glasgoar..end would be under
env obligation to-the witness if he spoke out. 1
believe this is a mistake respecting the Lord. Ad-
roaster's being theft in Glasgow•:.•he must have beret
confounded for the Ailvocate-Depute. After tins
period the witness was. removed toadisibisrgli, and
there a new scene commenced. rnr. Home Drum-
mond then visited him, and told him his name was
on the list of the seditious persons, col that
lIOW was the time for lam to determine whether
he would be • witness or not. What was
this but holding out an inducement to halt to be-
come a witness ?—(Hear.)—Campbell replied to
this application, that if lie turned witnesi lie could
never be able to go back acid live ut Glasgow ; whets
Mr. H. Drummond said, that he had thought ore
plan for him, and would write to Lord Sidintnith to
get him into the Excise in a different part of the
empire. Campbell, it seems, did not then decide ;
but was not this holding out it reward, and actually
specifying that reward ?—(Herse.).-141t a subse-
queist visit Mr. Drummond said to him, 4 If you
give such information as will please the Lord Advo.
Bate (mark, please the Lord Advocate), you will
neither be tried yourself, nor called as a witness.'
Wasruch amen lit to beafterwards called us a witness?
I sin not enabled to say whether Mr. H. Drum-
mond acted wills the privity of the Lord Advocate
throughout the whole of this unjust and unfair
tampering; but they have acted, or at least appear
to have acted, so Glitch 111 concert, that I am nimble
to proceed without connecting them both together
in the business. Perhaps the Lord Advocate
would say, "rrue, Mr. H. Drummond did this—
true. he tampered with the witness ; bat what have
1 to do with that ? 1 knew nothing about it, nor
ever authorised such a proceeding.' lo this I can
only answer, that in such au event. my übservotious
must fall upon the guilty person. At another ia-
terview Mr. H. Drummond sail to him, • I don't
know what to do with you—l wish to do all I can
to save you.' Again—' This is the last tome,
Campbell. I cats speak to you ; you must how de-
termine whether you will be a witness or esot.•—
Campbell then said. ' Have yon written to Lord
Sidmouth ?' Mr. H. Drummond replied, No,
I have not ; you know you would not decide. and
that prevented me—you rejected.' Campbell then
said, that lie should like to leave the country, but
that being a mechanic, lie knew the law would not
allow him to emigrate. Mt. H. Drusnmond, its
reply to this, said, There is no question but you
will get a pamper% and money to carry you WV
Campbell then agreed to be a witness, if his wife
was also provided for. Something was then done
about markii:g a pound note, mid sending it to her.
Was this tampering, or was it not ? and how could
this oaten be • witness and take the purgation oohs
without committing perjury ?--(Hears hear.)—
Sir Wm. Buy, the High Sheriff, also came to ex.
amine Campbell, mid heard what occurred relative
to the promise of the passport. The Solicitor-
General's Clerk wrote duwu the terms, as a sort of
security to the witness that They were to be even-
tually complied with. Sir Wm. Ray thru inter-
fered, awl said, • I won't sign this paper—as its
Officer of the Crown, it is my duty to see
justice done.'—(Loard crier of they, hear.)--
He then assured Campbell that if he signed the
is per, he (Sir William) would not answer for it fur
a great deal; for if, when called, he took the Purga-
tion Oath, he would be guilty of perjury. The whole
of the other parties present were ready to sign the
paper, but the interposition of the Sheriff kinicktil
this in the head. This, Sir, is my case.—(Hear.)
I have little to ray hat what the record of the tine!
contains, and I call for the retord to prove my case.
It must be obvious that though the paper was not
sigma, it was still a constituted agreement (pored
the witness, and disqualified him on the trial.
must also state, that when it was (mind 11w paper
could not hr signed. Mr. H. Drummond said to
Campbell, • You know whether you can be a wit-
ness or not ; you know what you have to expect ;
can you rely on it without its being set clown in
writing ?' This was saying, in other words, trust
us, and every thing shall be done for you. taint).
bell then said he was willing : Mr. Drummond re-
joined, • Can I rely on you ?' the Winer paid,
• Yes'—'‘V ell. then, I will rely on you as Gentle-
men !"flie Procunitm-Fiscal mid Clerk had the
uarrative signed, awl the Sheriff-Depute observed
to Campbell, that he had better go back to Isis loom
and leave the nation to manage 'for itself. It would
appear also, that Campbell wrote to Mr. 11. Drum-
mond for shoes and trowsens, and money. The
shoes and trowsers were sent to lam, but he was told
lie was not to expect money until the first trial was
over. Was this or was it not a promise ?---f Hear)
Cansplwll further deposed, that the Sheriff-Depute
told Inns Isis life was in (Luger. He admitted that
he did not believe this, though he certainly disliked
going back to Glasgow again.
" I have now. I trust, stated enough to chew
that a promise of reward wits held out to Campbell
fur his rink-pre—( Hear. hear,)—that from the
time he wits first seat to gaol to the moment lie was
uttered as a evilness, lit was itivuriably miller the

'fit

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tiole eanleol of the Law Mitts of tie Crown.
who ease throughout the whole peristi eltiployrl
itt - dialog that which they trete tirtersiliwed there
,119 t rd be tor opport sty of doing fur the itecupetl.
bear.)-1 mums here refrain from
roods% the words used by an then end Leawood
Graitlessiast opposite (the Attorney-General), me
late neension. and which I think pectstintly apply to
the pretent case. • God Ito said the Ilon.
and Leeriird Geittleannis, • that I, or any holy fur
eisendel have Nosy cora twetton with a teet-
hes* about to be produced Iry toe on be
(Hear, hear.j—l hope, therefore, II have his
leelebelitere for nssidenixnrtj the conthset pursued by
the Low Officers in Studded. Gover ttttt rot have
now avowed the employment of spirt seal informers. I
They know (for it is admitted in evidence.) t hut they
fomented the mischief they were intended to prevent. 1
I Spies and iisformere were, from their very nature,
the twat and bane of society. 'Theme churireters de-
mooted us they thought proper any IltdllldUNl ill
society ; he was was arrested by it secret warrant
from the Secretory of State, carried to a secret,
[seamier a dimwit prison. If under suer circuits-
stances, and Magistrates tampered with in the lei.-
romance of their duty, and evidence concocted to
so aesadalona x mossier as this. 1 ask what chance
con ally individual have of a heir trial, or any thing
like n fair trial fur Iris life ?—(lieur, bear.)—lt is
ass outrage upon, and a violation of every 'wit 4.f
our venerated Cunstitutiou, Nod as ilifractiou of its
moat sacred privilege.—(Hear, bear.)—l get out
with 'saying, that L could prove suborsiatein of
perjury-1 can describe there proceedings by
ito other name.--(Hear. hear, hear.)---f
1
the Panned were convicted oil the evidence of
Campbell, and the sentence tarried into off-et, 1
will ask, would nut the cotiviction Imre been eifecied
-by a tatupered witness. procured to give agreeable
evidence (for agreeable was die word used) fur the
Low Officers of the Crown, who should have ateii
justice done the Prisoner?—(l/ear, bear.)—If the
man had been executed, us avaii intended ill the
recut of the first conviction, Ma that it areeer4llll
came out the conviction ass obtained through the
ogencrof Mr. H. Drummond, in what it sstuati tttt
would not the Lord Advocate feel himself? All
tins hose business would have been kept !secret, if
Campbell had kept his Counsel. Good God ! Sir,
can any Oho; be so gross as this proceeeding ? Can
any thing be so gross as to put a criminal at the Isar,
and for what ? • For endeavouring to overturn our
laws, and bring into contempt the Gorernmeni and
the Constitution (if the coserstry.'—f Heur.)—Who
brotight the laws into contempt? Was it Andrew
M'ltitilay, or the Law Officers of the Crown ?
(Hear, (Hear, bear.)—What ought to be the character and
conduct of the Law Officers of the Crasara ?
ought they not to support mill sustain the dignity
of die justice of the land ? But, in till' case.
they nut rather violate its sanctity and purity quite
us notch as M‘Kirilay. Ilml more palpably if they
hail fully proved the extent of his crime?
" 1 have only one or two observations to mike
on the evidence at the trial. 1 ask for its rectiiii,
and for this reason—because the Loiii A tha,c,ae
cunnot surely refuse to comply with my teem,
fur it only asks for that which is of rlii•lr 0011
nsa—
nufactore. 'Flue evidence is theirs. mid theirs usily,
front beginning to end. Indeed, I tamiot outer.
pate any objection or defence that can he set up on
this occasims ; and mikes such can be made, what
object can there be to the motion? 'the charge
of tampering, is openly made out lay Sir William
Ray, who might, if what Campbell stated was un-
true, have been called up to 41)1dr:uteri biro. I
cainiot conclude without marlin:: on extract from
flume, on the Purgation Oaths. Ile sins, ' As to the
reaaril or promise of reward, if the prosecutor, or any
body for hill,, ilrellirts a witnesa by is lode, or in any
other manlier, this shall exclude lion from being
remounted, even whether the witness shall Meld toot.
resist (lie applicutiou.' 11e further says, 'lf a Alit-
gistiate sherd so far forget Isis duty. mad mistake hi,
power, as to noel fere in any manlier with a witness,
he is guilty of a wrong that retinae* him to an, ire
dictuble offence.'—l have now, Sir, done; and I
have to thank the House for the hslletrt attention
it lies given me. Ply motion ii—
" That their he kid before ibis Howse ropier of sorb 'lints
(date Books end Retards of the High Court of Justiciary
in ecuttarui, as relate to the several Lilll,ls end Charges laid
against Andrew APKisilay, on the (Bth Jul), 1917, together
with the Weibel end use hiang tletreuf."
Noble Lord sat dowu amid loud and con-
t. d cries of " Hear I"

The LORD ADVOCATE—se Mr. Speaker, lam
glad of this opportunity of repelling the charges
that have been thrown out stgainst the c [actors of
the state trials in Scotland. and I feel particularly
happy iu adverting to the statement the Noble
mold has accused me of making last .cayman iii tins
House. The Noble Lord has done me the justice to
make that statement of mine correctly. I did ..tote
to the House that many hundred iliousands iu the
vicinity Of Glasgow. and elsewhere, had takeu au
with, binding themselves to the most dangerous
anti destructive objects: and as ■ Secret Coo •t-
-ire had been lint a short time before appointed to
inquire ono the state of the country, I did con-
ceive I would nut• perform my dot) at it member
of this Iliteise, if, possessing information, as I did,
of an lilt tall tint oattire, I hail Hat criminatiscatid
it. I wilt tot enter into all the details of the trial,
but just state the charge against the Prisoner.—
The indictment against was for admi-
t:Uttering nit oath to many hundred thousand per-
sons, particularising smite of the males. The ver-
dict brought iii was, not proreu. I appeal for
what I am going to say, to luau)• Gentlemen iu tins
House, who understand the law of Scotland, and
the (111,141414 ms there allowed between different
verdicts. They will correct me if I err in lay-
ing down that distinction thus :—\l•lteu the
Jury are satisfied evidence has been adduced
sufficient to establish the existence of the cor-
pus delicli, but not to sliew that the Prisoner
is implicated, they find a verdict of not proven;
but when there is a want of evidence to establish►
the corpus deliebi. they titid u Ver/bet of not
guilty. In this case the verdict was not proveu—
the result, therefore, in law and reason, of the
trial is. that the fact alleged in the indictment, of
many I Ired thousand pe.ramis having taken u
treasonable oath, has been established.—(lleur,
hear.)--I call Nom Gentlemen to contradict site,
when I assert that the event of this trial was
to substantiate my drelanitions in this House.
I log leave, moreover, to state. that the Noble
Lyra was incorrectly informed with respect to the

•>.p,,Z.->.

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short-
hand-writer. Ulieqsllitetell with either party, boor
which it appears, that it was admitted in Court,
that when prisoners are coolititil iu the CaStle of
Edinburgh. certain officers may extra-judicially
grant uelMission to their friend., and this is taken
from the rerun! ; so that the modeler ertoerverf with
regard to Campbell did not justify the charge; Of
the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord seys, that the
Attorney-General could not legally huha cotnrour.
socation with primmer' before their trial. 1 cannot
answer for the law of England ; but I kuow that
what the r
omLuedir.el
duties
:ItliTelOlAllteisely
LielC:
Greieral iit Farglatol and the King's Advocate in
Scotland are in mane respects different. The Int-
ter is nut mile a Law Officer but a Police Ma-
' gistrate; and this irises; from the vrettent state of
Scotland being nu longer an indepeorlent king-
thorn. The Kong's Advocate ix there called upon by
the Magistrates, iu numerous instuticre, ion only for
advice, but actual and effective service and astiat-
once io their labours. On every great emergency,
on every occasion of public danger, ilowit from the
time of the lievolution, the King's Advocate fur the
time bring is the person looked to hy the Gut erisnietit
of this country for information of whit is teeing
lit this entilary the Attorney-Gelterel is not to
do
any thief{ of the kind ; he veinier! .ettonot to ob-
tain itiltirointioit on public affrirs without turreted'.
log oil the fonctiotire of the Secretory of State ; but
in Scotland the Advocate is betted to every
measure competent to the Secretaty of State :;.ere.
Precogoitious are begot§ tither at his irataace or
that of the Procurator-General. If there is any
error or informality in tires'', 1;e is boalid to :anew;
them—and if the Noble Lord will look info the
ks on the subject, Ile will find that this leami-
pie lies loeti acted gm by officers in the stiiiirgk st
elearree attached to the flamer of flatiorcr. 114
1738, Lord President Follies and Mr. Dundee iis-
slanted trials uliati depri•ilmiitt take:( before therm or
gaol. There ore Imlay sof this kiwi not given
in tier hulk', and particularly nor of a person titre!
for tobleitig the mail, iu tvbieli instance the eerie be
of the King's Counsel ii ilirsr to have gone tli the
gaol for tier purpose described. l'ltere is ;lot finite
extrartidiaary is; the Noble Lord's saying, that the
precogoitione should be regolaily combo:teal; that
they should be ample ;old stilli..ievt before any
ling on trial. I say I his is nothing extmordinary.
for the conductors of the poreecotron are huble
damages in eases where this is not donee This wile.
detertuitied in the case of Lord Advocate Doodae,
who was compelled to lay his infortnetions end'
evidence on the table for the betietit of the ;ac-
cused, and to ritecoier whether they would furnish it
.r I eat's+, of action. Ever since that lime, tlit•
l")flicer ie held petsonally liable for not iirj toy done
this way to persons accused. Ido not eepirrito
myself from Drummond—l am the person respou-
stide—he was (oily on ngent. I regretted exceed-
iii ly be obliged to make a Gentleman of foe
ratik tint Al(11111"elgelltS hold any couveisation W,l;e
I Person. of that mot. 'lle prisoners were appre-
hended by the Sheriff- Devote and 11l '('V
siatatits. They abated, one trod all, o at they
knew, and it eppeared to tile sufficient to found a
prosecution tat against 3'l'li:id:iv. If I have been -
citived, he is entitled to his acting against me. TbLy
Hpirintrt:cofcttrrieittifotro (
o1,47;1?::1141:)ti
his nor
oltt c‘l'° "li
l'esirrealAifir.l:7[l. i 1
r.ttll;-
1-
mond to go to Imo, end, if lie aerated to possess
such itiforination, to duos Lim a coodutoital promise:
purriou. Ile had an authority to offer tine situa-
tion to induce hint to g-ve sevidence—atel, on his
'tart, I dedy that elich promise was ilea t het
whole conversation that took place is detailed in
the itiformations. lii 'rating t';et coaveisation that
did take place, I am perfectly aware that I tiny
making a statenitait of a gnu teuiuiii out on oath,
eigaiiist that of eauther on his trisl; hitt miles' dile

last WIIIIPPS.I.PtIittIiCV IS Colltdp,riittil. Ili t unme
exceptione mgjor. Campbell certamly a!lainrd oh_
jeer. thy Pia iiiformution—it intl.:lit save his life, ant!
enalile hirn to go abroad. But I do not ask the Illon.e
to rely on his evidence ; he is liable to suspicion eui
other grounds. A week helot e the !limit, two friends
of time Learned Gentleman opposite were armpiaisiteill
with the evidence lie was to give, and 31,..leffery told
them lie would prove is corroboration of Campbell's
et islenv! step by step. I wish so ask whether Cason-
Ims II was dismissed without a reward ? (liner, hear.
film h e Minharrial Benches.)—The statement et'
Mr. Drunimoial is, that the Prisoner represeisteti
himself to be in the greatest tenor for his life, if lie
should give information. Afterwards Mr. Di wo-
wing!, not of his own movement, but sent for, and
n visit from the gaoler, went to Campbell. Caw-.
bell !imposed, on condition of alitaining a 1.,-
port for the Continent, to give both iimformations
stud evidence. Before this lint is nom*, had.
there Ikea of evidence. slr. I)rutormaid said,
lie could make no promise withust acqnsioting
lIIP ; nod after his coming to me, mid ray consult-
ing with other Lmiw Officers, I did cotietude that I
was bound to protect him in the only way that lie
conceived possible, and directed atr. I). to iirimk.e
him it promise of a passport, and what was firers-
sary to make it *wadable. On the sitar occasion
Mr. I)ruminond told me Campbell wastroder great
appioliesisions about his wife, who was /dawn,, tool
requested money to send fur her. Mr. Drunimoid
refused. A letter was written to toe ; I replied tats
UP to money, it would never be given--it caold nut.
be alone. however, I did what I considered tin tiVl-
silty required, to alleviate the miseries el cooline-
meta ; I haul his wife brought to Edinburgh, wed
a place publicly taken for her by the Nlag
water. Now, Sir, the prisons who made ilmis Immo-
ntise did nothing wrong or illegal ; for them, in-
stead of sending for the Shetiff, the She:ill:4)r-
pute, and Procurator-Fiscal, the lit tinw.e
have been made in secret. If their was ary ilb-
gality, is it conceivable that they would have called
on these Magistrates to record the ibtettot‘e Whet'
the Sheriff-Depute sat down to take the dm posit:om.a.
of the Prisoner, Mr. imsked,
have yon to say ?' The him-oiler rephail, ' Suppos-
ing I was coucerned, and told the a hole math, L
could not be Rafe in time country—wit bout is pass,.
port for the. Continent, I could not be a witcess.!'
The Sheriff'. Substitute stated, in amount, that*
the Primmer should have a pus-port. The Slmerift
afterwards came iuto the room, and the Smmtta
citor-General said to the Prisoner, • You know
all )ovi are to expect.' It is alleged .the Si rt tf
observed, ' 1 will not sign this paper, far sigp-

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