The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY .EVENING, MAY 12 1855.

, f
to Lord Hariovaby, requesting him to do them the jus-
tice to which they were entitled.
The subject then dropped.
REORGANIZATION OF....THE ARMY DEPART-

direction in all matters in which unity is pessible—to brine
all the military eepertmeets of the erns, r elle su-
preme directing control. Therefore, the provision of stores,
the manufacturing of all those things which the Ordnance
manufacture--the manufacture of arms, of cannon, and
of ammunition—everything connected with the con-
struction of fortifications and barracks—in fact, all
the civil business of the Ordnance will be pieced
under the distinct control of the Secretary for War. He
will, of course, have under him separate subordinate heads
for the different branches of the ordnance service. The
consequence will be that the commissariat, department, the
medical department, and the ordnance department will
come under the immediate control of the Minister for War.
The next point is the examination of the accounts. This is
a department of great importance. It is a department hav-
ing business to do which must be done, and be done under
some reponsible head. The offices of the Secretary-at-War
and the Secretary of State for the War Department have
already been united in the person of Lord Panmure. The
Secretary of State will continue to be the head of the de-
partment which examines the accounts of the officers.
This will tend, so far as public expectation goes, to the
consolidation of the military departments in one head,
for the purpose of giving unity of action anti prompti-
tude of execution. (Hear, hear.) The arrangements
which we propose to make have been partially effected,
and will be immediately completed. They will, I trust,
as far as possible, accomplish all we desire. Of course
there will be an official head, who will have under him all
these different departments and their political management.
By political management I mean the direction of the troops,
he direction ofexpeditione, and everything connected with
the political relatiods of the country. He will alsohave that
which has hitherto been the duty of the Secretary at. War.
He will also have the direction of the commissariat, of the
land transport, of the naval transport, and of the medical
and ordnance departments ; and all these departments will
therefore be brought under one head. I know that some
persons have thought that the principle of consolidation
ought to be carried still further. There are persons who
think that the Minister for War ought to be that which
the Minister at War is in some countries—to be the Com-
mander-in-Chief, and to have the charge of the discipline
of the army, as well as of the political relations and civil
branches of the service. I confess that I, for one, am not
of that opinion. I think that there are practical objec-
tions to it, both as regards the interests of the service and
as regards other feelings connected with the working of
the oonstitution. The country is under parliamentary
government. Its Government are liable to change from
time to time, and they must be composed of men of poli-
tical character. Well, sir, if the Minister for War is to
be the director of the discipline of the army, he must al-
ways be a military man. I think that it would be fetal to
th'e character and spirit of the army to have a civilian at
the head of the army. Ido not think any army could feel
respect fur a chief who is not a military man. His praises
will be invelid, and his censures not attended to with re-
spect. It is absolutely necessary, in my opinion, that the
head of the army, the judge of the merits and demerits
of its officers, should be a military man. It is impossible
upon all occasions, and in all changes of Governments,
that there should be a military man who has so de-
voted himself to political matters, who should be pointed
out by circumstances as able to represent the army in
the Cabinet I think it very undesirable that such an
arrangement, should be made. lam of opinion that if
all the patronage of the army should be dispensed by a
member of the Government of the day, it would be
an arrangement open to grave and serious objections.
I think the present arrangement ought to be continued.
There is great advantage in having the discipline of the
army supsrintended by a military man, not a member of
the Government of the, day, and in having the patronage
of the army dispensed by a man not connected with the
political party which may at the moment 'se at the head of
affairs, tut who will be at the head of the army. It is im-
possible for any man, however pure his motives or correct
his judgment may be, to meet with universal assent on
every occasion on which he has to exercise a choice. Com-
plaints, therefore, must always be expected when the army
is governed by a military man ; but I will ask any gentle-
man, would not these complaints be multiplied in an infie
nits degree if the patronage of the army were dispensed by
any parson sitting on the Treasury bench, or a member of
either House of Parliament? He would be open to every
kind of imputation, and, of course, men are naturally go-
verned by motives; and it is quite clear that the induce-
ments to allow favour and partiality to overpower his
judgment of merit would be tenfold greater on the part of a
person belonging to Government than they could be in the
breast of a man who has no other object than the character
end officering of the army at the head of which it is his
good fortune to be placed. I have stated what has been
lone, anti what we are immediately going to complete. I
think these arrangements will accomplish great and im-
portant results, and be greatly to the advantage of the
military branch of the public service. These things are,
however, matters which cannot be made perfect at once.
It is possible that experience of the working of the arrange-
ments which are to be made may be defective. We have
lone that which we think to be for the best, and which
the circumstances of the case appear to require. We are
perfectly ready to reconsider these arrangements if it should
be found that improvements can be made upon these
which we are now preparing to carry into execution. I
can assure the honourable anti gallant member (Major Reid)
and the house that the great object which her Majesty's
Government have at heart—and I do not pretend to claim
Any peculiar merit upon that account, because the object
of any persons who stand in the position of Ministers of the
Crown must be the same—l can assurethe house that what
we have at heart is to render all the branches of the public
service as efficient as we can make them. We can have no
other motive than to carry out our duties to the best of our
ability. It is in this way only that any ministry--it is
only by correcting errors when errors have been committed
—it is only, wheredefects have been found out, by infusing
the utmost vigour in the publicservice, and the utmost en-
ergy which it is in the power of a Government to enforce
—it is only by these means that any ministry can expect
to carry the country through the great war in which it is
engaged. (Cheers.) It is only by these improvements in the
public service that any Government who are honoured by
the service of the Queen and the confidence of the country
' can expect to render themselves worthy of either that ser-
vice or that confidence, and can expect to earn the appro-
bation of their Sovereign and their country. (Hear, hear.)
I therefore trust that if the country, from an impatient but
very natural desire of seeing these improvements carried
out by Government, have been led to impute delay, they
will not ascribe it to any slackness upon our part, or to any
apathy or indifference to the interests which it is our duty
to protect ; but that they will believe that the delay has
simply arisen from the difficulties inherent in the arrange-
ments which we have had to carry into effect, into which
it would be unfitting for us or for any Government to ad-
vance, until by deliberation and mature examination we
had satisfied ourselves that what we were about to do was
the best which we could devise, and which would be most
likely to be attended with the advantages which it was our
duty to aim at. I hope I have now satisfied the hon. and gal-
lant gentleman that waare still entitled to the support of this
house,which I must a,dmithas hitherto been given generously
and largely to the Government. In all matters in which the
public service is concerned I am bound to say that the way
in which this house has granted to the Government all the
means which it has asked for affords a noble spectacle to the
world. Because it has allowed no party feeling, no strife, no
difference of faction to interfere with the public service,
and I certainly am bound to make the most handsome
apology to all in that respect; but while that has been the
case with the house, the country also has been willing to
wait to see what arrangements, what improvements we
were able to make in the administration of public affairs ;
and I do trust the feelings of the house and the country
now will be that the changes which have already been
made, and those which we are about to make, as well as
the great and marked improvement in the condition of the
army abroad, fully justify the forbearance which the house
has shown, and entitles us to the confidence of the country.
(Hear.) Sir, we are engaged in a great struggle ; it is not
now simply a question of conditions • it is not simply a
question of those points which have been lately discussed ;
but all Europe—all the world—the whole human race have
their eyes fixed upon the contest now going on. (Hear.)
England and France, two great powers, are on one side,
and Russia, a gigantic and colossal power on the other,
and depend upon it the issue of the contest involves not
only a question of arrangement or condition, but on the
issue of that contest depends whether England and France
shall continue to hold the high position which they have
hitherto done amongst the nations of the world, or whe-
ther, on the other hand, we and France shall sink down to
the condition of inferior and second-rate States, and whe-
ther the enemy with whom we are contending shah hence-
forward be the dictator and dominant power of the world.
Mr, DlSRAELl—Recollecting the lecture which the Secre-
tary of State read to us last Friday, in regard to the great in-
convenience of interposing motions and raising desultory dis-
cussions on motions of adjournment, which the right hon.
gentleman intimated was so great an abuse of the privileges of
hon. members when carriedto excess, that if it were persisted
in, the house might find it necessary to restrain or restrict the
privilege, I must express my surprise to-night on finding the
Prime Minister taking advantage of the same machinery, and
in a manner so entirely unexpected, to make a communication
to the house of some importance certainly, and to express sen
timents as to the intentions of the Government which, coining
from a man in his high position, were calculated to arrest the
attention of Parliament and the country. (Hear.) I cannot
help thinking that if the minister had to make a cominneica-

tion announcing important changes in the public depart-
ments, and especial y, in those connected with the c.mduet of
the war, it would have been no mere surplusage of cour-
tesy if some notion of such intention had been given. It
would have been more convenient to the house and more dig-
nified to the noble lord himself, if due notice had been given
of his intention. (Hear.) I confess when I entered the house
and looked at the bill of our business for the night, I was
considerably surprised by the sort of portentous announce-
ment introduced to our attention by the somewhat extraor-
dinary notice which first struck my eye. I was told here of
the highly critical position of public affairs, and the increasing
anxiety and dissatisfaction which at present pervades all
clg sses of society, and that some gifted individual meant to
press upon the attention of the Government " the wisdom of
immediately anticipating those consequences which are certain
to arise from continual popular demonstrations, by at once in-
troducing such reforms in every branch of the state as are con-
sonant with the intelligence of the age and the just demands of
the people." (Hear, and a laugh.) One would have thought
after what was said the other night about the inconvenience
of desultory debates upon motions of adjournment, that a
subject of this kind would not have been brought forward in
tens indirect manner ; and for some time I was at a loss to dis-
cover what the object of this extraordinary notice was, and
who was its author. (Hear, and a laugh.) We had a dis-
cussion the other night, whether the first edition of the
" Essay on Mau" was published anonymously, or the reverse.
I happening to have a copy of the earliest edition in my pos-

- - session, ventured to say that it was anonymous. And it is
curious that when Pope published it anonymously he put in
some false rhymes in order to put the town off the scent, and
that they should say, " Oh, this can't be Pope's, for lie never
could have made these bad rhymes." (Hear, and a laugh.)
And so I suppose that the flagrant violation of grammar in
this notice-.,(10ud laughter)—wherein we are assured that the
increasing anxiety and dissatisfaction which at present " per-
vades" all classes of society—(a laugh)—was put in by the
noble lord—(hear)—in order to put the house off the scent,
and that it might be said—Oh, this can't be " Pope's"—it
would not be parliamentary to mention the other Dalile.
Well, what is the answer of the noble lord to this inte-
resting inquiry of the member for Abingdon? Here we are
told that we must have reforms in every branch of the state,
and the noble lord, considering " the highly critical position
of public affairs, and the increasing anxiety and dissatisfactiAl
which pervades—(a laugh)—all classes of society," and with
the view of " immediately anticipating those consequences
which are certain to arise from continual popular demonstra-
tions," has favoured the house with a most meagre and frigid
programme of those reforms in every branch of the state
which he intends to propose " as consonant with the intelli-
gence of the age and the just demands of the people." It
would have been well had the noble lord informed the house
and the country, of the intentions of the Government in a les
artificial manner ; but, as far as I could gather from the noble
lord's speoch, the only information of any importance or

novelty which he has communicated to-night is that of wllich
notice was given, that the communication would be made in
another place. Now, I must say that is a strange way of car
lying on the public business. (Hear.) Notice was given in
another place, that great reforms and changes were to be
made in the departments connected with the conduct of the
war, and that in due time the nature of those changes would
be there announced. But, though the notice was given in
that other place, the communication was not made there,
while here we have had the communication without the notice.
But what has the noble lord announced? I need not touch
upon the fact of his commu,dcating to us the confidence of
the Government in the improved state of the army. That is
intelligence which must be gratifying to us all, and we have
only to hope that the noble lord has good foundation for
that confidence. (Hear, hear.) Nor will I touch up n the
sanitary measures which have been adopted for the im-
provement of the army in the field, or of the troops in
hospital—important no doubt all of them, but not suffi-
ciently so to be communicated as they have been to-night for
the purpose of inducing Parliament and the people of Eng-
land to lose no heart in the great and historic struggle in
which we are engaged. The only announcement which the
noble lord has made conveying any information we did not
already know is, that the Government are about to introduce
a measure for the consolidation of the military departments.
(Hear.) Nor is there anything profoundly original in such
cons?lidation. (Hear.) The subject has been long under the
consideration of Parliament, and it has been submitted to the
scrutiny of select committees. For myself I may be per-
mitted to say that I approve entirely of the general principle
of such changes, but until we have the measure before us I
can form no opinion of the prudence or the judgment which
characterises the mode in which it may be proposed to carry
them into effect. (Hear.) But it is not merely that the
mind of Parliament and the labours of select commit.
tees have been brought to the consideration of the subject
of these changes that ought to have taken place, even were
we not involved in a great—l had almost said a disastrous—
war ; but they have also occupied the attention of previous
Ministries. And it was only last year, when you said you
were about to appoint a new Secretary of State to preside
over the conduct of the war, that we pressed upon you not
only to appoint a now Secretary of State, but to define his
duties, and to place the department under one responsible
head'; you refused to follow our advice, and much of the dis-
aster, the disgrace, and the misery, which have since fol-
lowed, are, I believe, attributable to your neglect in that re-
spect. I shall not be told, lam sure, by the noble lord, that
he is not responsible for what was done by Lord Aberdeen's
Government. Such a shabby excuse I am confident will
never be resorted to by him. (Hear.) The noble lord held
a high position in Lord Aberdeen's Government. He was
the Secretary of State, who was responsible for the efficiency
r of the militia, and it is due to him, therefore, that that force
is in its present ineffective and disgraceful condition. (Hear.)
With regard to the noble lord's panacea for extricating us from
all our difficulties, the proposed measure, notrecommended by
any novelty, for it is in principle the ono which he re-
jected last year when it was pressed upon the atten-
tion of the Cabinet of which he was a member—
I shall reserve to the proper occasion, that is when it is be-
fore us, any opinion as to its details. If the details by which
the principle in which I concur is proposed to be carried oat
are salutary, and suited to the exigencies of the case, I will
support them ; but if they are not well considered, imperfect,
and unadapted to the emergency—if the measures to be pro-
posed for our acceptance are neither bold in plan nor well
considered in detail—l shall not be afraid to oppose them.
The subject then dropped.
TEE TRANSPORT SERVICE.
Mr. BELLEW drew attention to the neglect which cha-
racterised the management of our transport service—espe-
cially in regard to sending out troops in unseaworthy ves-
sels. He referred especially to the case of the Seringapa-
tam, in which a detachment of troops had been sent to the
Mauritius last year. The vessel, it appeared, was seven-
teen years old, was classed as an inferior vessel at Lloyd's,
was sent out with the troops on board without being sur-
veyed after her previous voyage, and was in so bad a state
that she made 26' inches of water per hour, though
the weather was by no means rough, was not strong enough
to carry the ordinary amount of sail, and, but that the sol-
diers were keptconstantly at the pump, would have foundered
in deep water, hundreds of miles from laud. These facts the
hon. member confirmed by reports from Major Simmonds,
who commanded the detachment ; Lieutenant-General Suther-
land, to whom he reported at the Mauritius ; the master of
the Saringapatam ; and a letter from Mr. H. Bell, of War-
wick, who had a son on board. He should conclude by
making a few observations on his reason for bringing forward
his motion, which might seem as if intended to embarrass the
Government. He thought that if such reports as those of
men like, Major Symonds and General Sutherland were taken
no notice of, it was the duty of some member of that house to
come forward and give the Government an opportunity of
explaining and giving the army some confidence in believing
that they were as much cared for as any emigrant who left
the country. He only wanted to learn whether any reform
had been effected in the transport service, and if so, what it
was ?

Sir C. WOOD could assure the hon. gentleman that he did
not object to this case being brought forward, but he should
have been glad to have had a more specific notice of what ease
was to be discussed, for he could not gatherfrom the notice of
motion what particular case war to be brought forward.
Mr. BELLEW said his reason for not giving a more specific
notice was, that as the Secreary for War had signed the papers
connected with the case, he supposed that he had submitted
so gross a case to the proper authorities, and he was In.t aware
that he would be answered by the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Sir C. WOOD did not make it a subject of complaint, but
all he wished was to show that unless some sort of notice of
what w is to be asked of the Government was given, it was dif-
ficult to give a proper explanation, and he hoped the house
would not impute to him want of care in not being acquainted
with the details of a particular case, when the notice was
.only "to call attention to the transport service." He could
state that a reform bad been made in the transport service ;
a board had been constituted of three gentlemen—a captain
in the navy, an experienced captain in the transport service,
and an officer in the army—all of whom were the most com-
petent persons that could be found, and he had every reason
to hope that the service would be efficiently performed. With
regard to the particular case he was glad that these papers
had been brought forward, for they showed. bow great had
been the skill and gallantry of the officers on board this ves-
sel, and how creditable to them their conduct was. He was
sorry that anything of the kind had happened ; but he was
glad that au opportunity of explanation had been given which
enabled him to show that no care or precaution had been
omitted before the vessel len this country to insure her being
in a proper state. There was a survey, and there was no
reason to suppose that she was not in a fit state for the voy-
aee. He happened to have with him one or two documents
relating to the Seringapatam ; for when the report of General
Sutherland was received, the Admiralty called on the pro-
per officer to report what had been done. It used to be a
complaint against the Transport Board that they did not take
up ships from the best owners. In this case, out of eight ships
which were tendered, six belonged to owners who were said
to be favoured, while two, of which the Seringpatam was one,
belonged to Messrs. Green, a firm of the highest character,
and that alone would be considered a guarantee of their ship ;
but besides that, she was warranted by them, It appeared
that the vessel was built in 1836, and was classed A 1 at
Lloyd's for twelve years ; at the end of that time—in 1849
she was resurveyed by Lloyd's, and was found in so good a
state that she was continued in the first class for four years
more. In 1850 she was again surveyed by Lloyd's, and placed
in the second class, or E dipthong red, which was next to the
first class, or Al. It was stated by Messrs. Green that be-
fore she was takes up the vessel was put into thorough re-
pair. She was also snrveyed by the transport officers before
she was taken up, which was indispensable, and the report
of the surveying officers was that she was in thorough
repair. When General Sutherland's report was sent
in, these officers were called on for an explanation, and th, y
sent in a report dated January, 1855. (The right hon. gentle-
man then read the report, which stated the classification and
survey of the ship at Lloyd's, as he had already stated
above, and that she showed weakness, and laboured at sea
owing to the improper stowage of some heavy railway iron.)
It therefore appeared that there was no negligence on the part
of the surveying officers, or the persons taking up the vessels,
in ascertain ng whether she was seaworthy, If there had been
an improper stowage of heavy iron which caused her to labour,
that did not show that she was not properly looked to before
she sailed,

Admiral WALPOLE said that the roport of Gen. Suther-
land showed so much that was discreditable to the authorities
in the transport service, that he was glad an opportunity was
offered the right hon. gentleman to give a somewhat though
not altogether satisfactory explanation with regard to the
steps which had been taken on the taking up o the vessel,
it was not stress of weather which caused the leakage of th s
vessel, and there was no doubt that she would have f.undered
if she had encountered heavy gales. He was of opinion that
an able officer in whom the Admiralty had confidence ought
to be stationed at every port to inspect ships which was to
carry troop, for though Captain Milne was au excellent offi-
cer the transport duty was so great that he could not super-
intend it all.

Colonel NORTH called the attention of the right hon.
gentleman to the last paragraph of Major Symonds' report, in
which it was stated that there was no fire-engine or force-
pump, and only 18 buckets on board the vessel. No remark
had been made on that in the official report sent to the Admi-
ralty. It also appeared that the ship had arrived from Bom-
bay in a very leaky state about 3 months before. He ques•
tioned whether the official who had to carry out the orders of
the Admiralty had done his duty. The report also said that
the ship was always wet, and that great damage had been
done to the clothes and arms of ,the troops on board. He
should have liked to ask the Under-Secretary for War, if he
had been present, if the Government had taken any steps to
reimburse the officers and men of the sth Fusiliers and the 85th
regiments for the loss they had sustained. As to the manner
in which the ship was loaded, Mr. Green had been told of it,
and he said he could not affird to have the stowage moved.
Sir C. WOOD said the hon. and gallant gentleman must
feel that it was impossible for him to come prepared to give
answers on all these details ; but if the hon. gentleman would
come to the Admiralty he would give him all the information
he required. No notice had been given Cult reference would
be made to the Seringapatam, and it was only accidentally
that he brought the papers relating to that vessel with him.
Captain SCOBELL said whatever might be the real facts in
this instance, it was well that cases of this kind should be
brought forward whenever a ship in the transport service was
known to be ill found. He thought that the Transport Board,
if it was constituted of three persons of equal authority,
would not work well ; but there should be some supreme
authority, with a council to advise him. You put a sador,
a soldier, and a civilian together; and ask them to agree,
which was often impossible, as they saw things from
different points of view. He thought the constitution of the
Transport Board, should be re-considered.
The subject then dropped, and the motion for the adjourn-
ment of the house to Monday (it being then twenty minutes
to 9 o'clock) was agreed to amid loud cheers.
NEWSPAPER STAMP BILL.
The adjourned debate on the third reading of this bill was
resumed.

Mr. PACKE said he would not allow the bill to go through
its last stage without entering his protest against it, as being.
a most unjust and unfair measure of taxation. It was sought
by tail bill to give the metropolis and large towns newspapers
free a the expense of conveyance ; but with regard to the
rum_ and agricultural districts they would be taxed for the
conveyance. There was a loss of revenue by this measure,
which was to be supplied by a tax on sugar, tea, and coffee ;
and in return for those taxes the towns had an equivalent in
the free transmission of their newspapers ; but that was not
the case with the rural districts, which had no such equiva-
lent. He thought the bill unjust, and he should vote against
the third reading.

'lr. MAGUIIiE said the question before the house was the
amendment of the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen.
(No, no ; it is the third reading. The amendment will come
after that.) If that was so, he supposed he might still offer
some observations ou that subject, being desirous to point out
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer some impediments to the
success of his measure. The principle of the bill was to give
the public the largest amount of political information, bat
without any especial benefit to any particular newspaper.
That was a fair and intelligible principle ; but he would not
have been prepared to support the copyright clause, which
was withdrawn in deference to the sense of the house, believ-
ing that it would have injured the London, and ruined the
provincial press, lie knew the value of the Loudon journals
to the provincial press, and especially the importance of the
foremost Journal of the day. He contended that in many

respects great injury would be done by nig w
enable low and disroputable journals to pirate articles ui Li-
telligence with impunity, and actually to live and prosper
upon the daily papers. In reference to the advertisement
duty, he contended that it was abolished, not for the advan-
tage of newspaper proprietors, but for the benefit of the pub-
lic. The same principle should apply to the limitation of
weight to be carried by the post. A letter for a mere private
individual was a matter that would benefit at the most two

persons, but the transmission of a newspaper was a subject of
national importance. He appealed to the Government to

extend the time for transmission. A rich man might read a
newspaper in a few moments (laughter)—but a poor man,
having little time at his disposal, might take a week or two
to wade through the same matter. Having read his paper,
he would be virtually prevented from transmitting it through
the post by the measure now under consideration. (Hear )
Sir. J. WALIISLEY said he agreed with much that had
fallen from the hon. gentleman who had spoken in opposition
to the bill, but he objected to making it a personal question.
As a member of the committee appointed to consider the
removal of the stamp and advertisement duty, he agreed with
those who hell that great advantage w mid arise to the com-
munity from the freest possible communication between the
press and the public. Still he could not consider that it was
necessary to give to the newspaper press any particular mono-
poly. He would carry out the principle of free trade in news-
papers as in everything else, for it (lid not appear to him that
newspaper proprietors required such a monopoly. He thought
he was well advised when he said that a newspaper would cost
three times as much as a letter/in its carriage. A newspaper
weighed four ounces at least, while an ordinary letter weighed
only half an ounce, and the house was now called upon to
allow four ounces to pass through the post eight or teu times
while an ordinary half-ounce letter could pass only once. He
did not for a moment believe that the press wonld call upon
the house to do such an act of injustice, inasmuch as newspa-
per proprietors had the privilege of one transmission for a
penny, which was quite as much as they required. He must
protest against the statement that newspaper proprietors re-
quired any such privilege.
Mr. BARROW said that the measure was so great an injus-
tioe to the producer as well as the consumer of country news-
papers that he should vote against it.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS objected to a discussion on the merits
of the bill on a third reading, on the ground that it was an
unusual course of proceeding. He had listened with a great
deal of anxiety to the statements that had been made, and
was obliged to confess that he had not heard a single argu-
ment in favour of an opposition to the bill.
Mr. BENTINCK believed that the consent of the house to
the bill—for consent there would no doubt be—would not be
a spontaneous act. If the real sentiments of the house could
be obtained, the bill, he had little doubt, would be rejected.
It had originated, not exactly from a pressure from without,
but from the screw having been effectually applied by the
right hon. gentleman the member for Manchester on the late
Chancellor of the Exehequer. The right hon. baronet who
had succeeded to the office had submitted to the same in-
fluence. Enlightened and energetic as the daily press of this
country was, he did not believe that it would require or ask
for any such measure as that before the house ; a measure
which while it would interfere with the liberty would not
control the license of the press.
The house then divided—
For the third reading l3B
Against it 6O-78
On the question that the bill do pass,
Mr. NAPIER (in the absence of Mr. Whiteside) moved to
insert the following clause—" That every periodical publica-
tion that shall be printed and published at intervals not
exceeding seven days leetween the two consecutive parts or
numbers of such publication, and the weight of which shall
not on the whole exceed six ounces, shall be entitled to the
said privileges of transmission and re-transmission by the
post, if duly stamped with the appropriate die of one penny."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said this clause
was substantially the same clause that was moved by his
hon. friend the member for Pontefract, which was fully
considered by the house and was negatived by a large
mejority. An alteration, however, had been made by the
hon. and learned member, the effect of which was to render
it much more keomplex and difficult to work; for, as pro-
posed by his hon. friend in committee, he took the limit
supetficial inches, as in the existing law, whereas in the
clause now proposed the limit of weight was substituted.
The effect of that would be, that the postage would be deter-
mined by weight beyond the six ounces. They must resort to
the measure of superficial inches with regard to all periodicals
published at intervals of less than seven days. Then -with re-
gard to periodicals published at greater intervals than seven
days, the existing law would apply to periodicals both of
greater and less weight than six ounces. He thought the
house would hardly expect th it he should again travel over
the ground which had been so thoroughly traversed iu pre-
vious debates. (Hear.) He would only state that the pro-
posal that he mall° in the present bill was to leave the exist-
ing law unchanged, with the simple exception that he made
the stamp on newspapers optional instead of compulsory. The
effect of this change in the law would be in favour of news-
papers publishing supplements and not against them. One of
the principal arguments in favour of an increase of the limit
of weight was that a hardship was inflicted upon newspapers
publishing supplements, inasmuch as they did not make an
additional charge to their customers, whereas they had a
stamp upon the whole of their supplement. Now, wheu this
bill became law, a newspaper would pay only for that portion
of the impression which was circulated through the post.
With regard to that portion that was distributed in the place
of publication, there would be no compulsory stamp. There-
fore, so far as regarded newspapers publishing supplements,
the alteration would be in their favour, and not against them.
In other respects the bill left the law unchanged, and it
would be in the power, of Parliament at a future time, if
they should think that newspapers did not enjoy sufficient
privileges, to increase those privileges ; but it should not
escape the attention of the house that at present, as com-
pared with letters and all other printed matter, the extent
of these privileges was large and almost beyond what might
reasonably have been expected.
Mr. MALINS asked if the bill would prevent a person
bending a newspaper by post which weighed more than four
ounces ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was understood
to reply that the bill made no alteration with regard to a
newspaper sent by post.
Mr. MALINS said the answer was not quite clear to him.
Would they be able after this bill to send the Times by post
as now ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Yes.
Mr. MALINS said this was not a question as to a parti-
ticular newspaper, but a question as to the public conve-
nience.
Mr. MAGUIRE said the power of re-transmission was not
what the proprietors of newspapers wanted, but it was of
importance to the public.
Mr. NAPIER said he thought it was not fair to put an ad-
ditional tax on the circulation of advertisements. As, how-
ever, the feeling of the house was against him, he would not
press the clause.

The clause was then negatived without a division, and
some verbal amendments having been made,
Mr. NAPIER was about to make some observations rela-
tive to the fourth clause, but
The SPEAKER informed him that he was too late.
The bill was then passed.
SPIRIT DUTIES (SCOTLAND AND IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day, that the house go into committee
on this bill,

Mr. GROGAN said ho had given notice of some amend-
ments, but he understood some propositions had been made
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by the distil ers with re-
gard to the making of whiiky from malt, and that a bill was
to be brought in which was to come into operation on the Ist
October next. Ho wished to know when the bill would be
brought in ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the billwas
in preparation, and he hoped that it would be brought in at
no distant date.
,Mr. GROGAN—And it will come into operation on the Ist
of October.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I cannot say
exactly.
Mr. VANCE ,said it would be a great convenience to the
trade if the right hon. gentleman would state the day on which
the bill would come into operation. He believed it was part of
the agreement on which the distillers had withdrawn their
opposition to the bill now before the house, that the new re-
gulations were to come into operation at the commencement
of the distilling season.
The house then went into committee.
Mr. GROGAN said he had given notice of some amend-
ments, but after the understanding which the right hon. gen,.
tleman had come to with the distillers of the three kingdoms,
he should not press them, but it would be very inconvenient
to the trade if they did not know when the new regulations
would come into operation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, on the
whole, he thought it was not desirable that he should pledge
himself to any of the details of the intended bill.
The several clauses and schedules of the bill, with some
verbal amendments, were then agreed to, and a numb r of
clouses added on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer.