The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-20 00:00:00

THE SU i\T LO_ DON TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 2W, 1855.

rather laigher, class. The Age, the Satirist, the Argus,
&c., which enjoyed a. considerable circulation some years
ago; but these have All ceased to exist. (Hear, hear.)
And it may be broadly stated that licentious publications
in- this couetry have not long enjoyed any extensive circu-
lation. But there has been another objection raised to
this proposal—that there will be one press for the rich and
another for- the poor—ono for the (wealthy classes, for the
upper classes; anti the ether, the cheap newspaper, for,
the lower classes. To a. certain extent that state of thinee
exists .at present. There aro newspapers alike printed
at a cheap rate and aro taken in exclusively by the
poorer classes. Two of these were called the News of
the Word and Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, and these
have the largest circulation after-the Times. This great
circulation is due to the fact that the prico of the paper
is threepence. But oven with these results it may be
doubted if there will be reason to regret it—if a class of
newspapers grow up which are moral an I useful in their
tendencies it may be.of advantage to have them circulating
among the poorer classes of society. '.Wo aro not to assume
that a class of nowspapsrs will be addressed to the public
which will be tainted by immoral or anti-social doctrines
—(hear, hoer) ;—and those who devote themselves to the
education and instruction of our population will here find a
field for their labours. That the present necessity of im-
posing a stamp on every copy of a newspaper is in some
instances detrimental to the revenue is shown by an ei-
treet from aletter`publiehed by the noble lord themene-7
ber for Leeds. (Tao right Iron. gentlemen read au esitre4
stating that the proprietor of a small paper publiehedeo4o
a fortnight preferred sending a messenger round toeteliVi
his paper to stamping it and sending it by the post, wlieris
by the revenue lost 81. for ()Very publication.) Under'th;
regulation I propeee it will be optional for all parties.-to
stamp or not, wholly or in part. . Having shown thet
public local newspapers now established will enjoy inl•
creased facilities, I doubt much if any similar results-would
be enjoyed by new newspapers. No newspaper can ever
circulate largely unless Mee a good medium for advertise-
meuts. It is from advertisements that a newspaper is
maintained—out of the profits. Small local newspapers will
never be profitable vehicles of advertisements, and therefore
they will never become good newspapers. The established
provincial newspapers, having large capital and a consider-
able circulation, and being in possession of the field, will
enter in competition with similar newspapers on the most
advantageous terms. The newspaper sketched by my right
honourable friend the member for Manchester as•soon
as the stamp is taken oil seems to me to be a visionary pro-
dilation. Ido not think that many newspapers will be
established. There is another objection to the present
measure-ean Objection which was adverted to in the other
house—that it" will cause a loss of revenue. (Hear.) If
• we had at this time a surplus revenue, and if the expendi-
ture'of the country did not greatly exceed the ordinary
income; the newspaper stamp would have fair claims to be
considered. But this was not the state of things at pre-
sent ; and ifthe,, house should ascertain that a certain loss
would follow the adoption of this measure, it would be my
duty to provide for. the deficiency by some other mode of
taxation. (Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) The pre-
sent stamp duty produces rather more than 400,0001., and
it is estimatedthat the doss which will be created by the
change I propose, that is the , repeal of the compulsory
stamp, will be 200,000/. (Ironical cheers.) There are at
the same time some facts that may lead to the inference
that, after the) compulsory tax shall he repealed, news-
; papers ',Will continue to print. a considerable part of their
visepressiOns on stamped paper. I .may state souse facts,
th respectto tiecirculation of the 7imes which will
-row some light on this part of the question. The Times
ieleculetes about 59,000 per diem, of which the newsagents
Zatribute 33,000, and of which 26,000 go to the country.
'Of these 26;009, 20,200 are sent by railway trains, and
5,800 are sent by post. I assume that at least three-fourths:
of the whole impression of the Times passes through the',
post, and a great proportion three' ore four times. I am'e
• leisured that of Ilitepaavincial paperti about two-thirds ate
sent directly theongh the poets 'Theee facts lead to the
Serene° that the positige-stamp.i.e.feiend a convenience in
tiro transmission of -iiewspapere, awl' even should it cease
'to be a conipulsery staiap,n, lerge portion of the circula-
tion of newspapers would pais through the post ; and if
the alteration of the law will lead to any large increase of
newspapers, it will also of necessity lead to a large in-
crease in the paper duties, and that will in some sort com-
pensate for the loss .1 have above referred to. But, accord-
ing to the estimate which has been made, the loss which
will accrue to the revenue cannot be tales at less than
200,0001. Srkeh a loss to the revenue is considerable. (Hoar,
henr.) But the house should bear in mind that the alter-
native they have to choose is the receding from the unani-
Mous resolution passed last session and the passing of a
more stringent measure for collecting the newspaperstamp
duty. (Ifsear, hear.) I have only to add that it has been
suggested to me, since the resolutions were laid on the

table of the house; that the plan would be more perfect if
it included all sorts of printed matter, and not merely
periodical publications. But' that involves the question
of a cheap, book poitage. There is the present law, under
which, by the payment of 6d. each, books weighing not
more thaiL one pound can be carried through the post,
and other Changes may be in progress. But it is ;or the,
Lords of the Treasury to modify the existing system, and
establish, ,if found desirable, a lower scale. However,
the Goveia invent think the question of the transmission
of periodical publications by past stands on different
grounds Irt on books. I admit the importance of the
regulations with respect to a cheap 'book postage, and,
should the house deem it desirable, I will take that
into cons aeration hereafter. But I may here state one
fact. A. :cording to the information given last session to
the coma aittee on the railway post, the following appears
the weigl ate of the different articles transmitted. Out of
300 artic lee sent by post, letters were only 13 per cent.,
books 2 per cent., newspapers 76 per cent., and bags 9 per
cent. iffear, hear.) Judging by the weight, then, news-
papers form by far the largest portion of the articles trans-
mitted by post, whereas books were only 2 per cent. The
right h on.- gentleman concluded, by moving the following
resoluti .e ns

" Th .at it is expedient to amend the laws relating to the
stamp duties on'newspapers, and to provide for the trans-
mission by post of printed periodical publications.
" any periodical publication, to be entitled to the
privileg v) of transmission .and retransmission by the post,
shall be printed on paper stamped for denoting the stamp
duty inx posed by law on a newspaper, printed on the like
number of sheets or pieces of paper, and of the like dimen-
sions vvi th respect to the superficies of the letterpress
thereof—, ' •

"That printed. newspapers(British, Colonial, or Foreign)
shall be. transmitted by the post between places in the
United. Kingdom and ber Majesty's Colonies or Foreign
Counts ies, or between any ports or places beyond the sea
(whet': or through the United Kingdom or not), either free
of post age or subject to such rates of postage, not exceed-
ing two 4 pence for each newspaper,' irrespective of any
charge for foreign postage, as the commissioners of the
Treasut y, or her Majesty's Postmaster-General, with their
consent, shall from time to time think fit."

Mr. GLLAD3T9NE --I have listened with great interest
to the ye ryeslaborate Statement of my right hon. friend,
and I enetirely agree with him in the opinion he seems to
entertain , that it would be botter that this bill should be
printed. s ,nd laid before the house; and .that there should
be some brief opportunity at least of giving it considera-
tion bell )re we enter into any full discussion of its merits,
or into.. any comparison between the particular provisions
of my right hon. friend's measure and that of which I had.
the he ,nc.ur of introducing. Parental partiality, probably,
renders mean unfair judge on this subject, but I cannot
deny 1 hat I regret the change which my right hon. friend
proper fors. (Hear.) At the same time,. in considering a
measu ire of this kind, I think it is our duty, as members©f
this it ease, to ask ourselves, not so much whether the mea-
sure t h at is proposed is in all respects conformable to our
own N rishes and, predilections, or even whether it is the
best le at in our opinion could be submitted to Parliament,
but es 1 ether, upon the whole, it goes so far in avoiding
all ex is ting difficulties of a serious and pressing character,
and is introducing material and substantial improve-
ments. in the law/as to make it worth our while to recom-
mend a nd promote its adoption by the Legislature. That
is the . principle upon which I desire to consider this bill
when it shall •have been laid upon the table. There are,
however, one or two points in the measure proposed by my
right 'hon. friend upon which I wish to say a word. I con-
fess I was very glad to hear my right hon. friend signify,
towns the close of his speech, that, he was not indisposed
to gis .e a favourable consideration to the proposal provided
it ape e ared to be in accordance with the wishes of the
House, to introduce into his bill, not a qualification or al-
teratiioi s of the measure. but simply an extension of it,
which would establish a moderate and low tariff for
printed matter in general. I certainly think that such a
regul action would be a most valuable addition to the bill,
and -w6uld in no respect interfere with the principle which
my rig ht hon. friend proposes to establish. I can con-
ceive : no reason whatever why newspapers or periodicals
publish Led within 31 days should enjoy privileges that are
denied to the feebler means and resources of those who may
occasion sally, or under particular circumstances, wish to
give th• e public the benefit of their thoughts in print.
With x, aspect to one serious portion of this question to
which. my right hon. friend adverted—namely, the effect
of his measure upon the revenue—l would remind him
that the introduction of a low and moderate postage
tariff for printed matter of all descriptions would
mates :jelly tend towards indemnifying him for the
loss he is likely to sustain. I have no scruple in
aches ting to this point, and I may remind the House
that although the present tariff for the transport of books
by p oat is not immoderate when it is applied to the
case of what may fairly be called books—l mean works of
considerable bulk, such, for instance. as the Quarterly or
vlt Reviews, which approach the weight of a pound
—yet, ) far as pamphlets are concerned, it is nearly a pro-.
hibito ry duty. Indeed, it would very commonly better
answer .the purpose of 'those who wish to circulate pamph-
lets through the post to send them as letters, subject...to
the h rtter postage, than to avail themselves of the existing
tariff for the transmission of books by post. I think,
therofs bre, there is every necessity for an alteration in this
respect . With regard to my right hon. friend's definition
of periodicals, I do not intend to enter into that part of
the cpiestion at present, but, if I understand his resolu-
tions :rightly, it appears to me that the only periodicals
which: would be able to avail themselves of his proposition
would be periodicals that conform, in a certain degree, to
the an angemente of newspapers, and particularly periodi-
cals th et are limited to a couple of sheets. I must confess
I appri Mend that this regulation will be found materially
to limit the beneficial effect of my right hon. friend's mea-
sure; and, if so, it will be an additional argument for his
adopti.'sg the proposal that greatly increased facilities should
bo give; n for the circulation of printed matter, though not
periodicals, by post. The next point I wish to mention is,
one tee which I advert with greater unwillingness, but
upon which I differ,from the views of my right honourable
frienti. He has announced his intention to 'propose that
the rise of the impressed stamp, which is to convey the
poste d privilege, shall be conditional upon a registration
that is to entail the giving of 'securities. (Hear, hear.)
Now,. it is quite true that at the present moment we have
a law- of this kind in operetion.-eelb is quite true that if a
tradesman at the present time carries his circular to the
Board of Inland Revenue he obtains the postal privilege
on the condition of his declaring his circular to be a news-
paper,, although if the Board of Inland Revenue was after-
wards to prosecute him for not stamping his entire im-
pression, he-Would be entitled to go into a court ofjustice
and th ere to contend that that was not a newspaper which
he himself had declared to be a newspaper in order to ob-
tein tiie postal privilege for part of his imprOssion. Now,
the deolare.tion thus made undoubtedly entails upon him
the condition of giving securities; and at present, if a
tradesman thinks he can supply his customers Mad the
public with any given article upon such terms that it is
worth while to advertise his prices from time to time, and
if his ambition has so wide a range that he wishes to make
them known, not only in the place where he may live, but
throughout the country, it is necessary for him to register
Lis adveitisemenl; sheet, or whatever it may be, as a news-
paper, and to give security that he will not print therein
1 any blitsPhemous or seditious libels, UndonlMaly this is

the practice under the law as it stands ; but I must con-
'fess my belief always has been that this was one of the
anomalies and absurd ities of the practice which induced
the house during the !last year to do what it is not very
apt to do, and what I tlink it most wisely eschews doing—
namely, to pass an absi Tact resolution to the effect that
the law ought to be alb ered. My right hon. friend pro-
poses that this conditi on of giving securities shall be
retained, but that it shall; be retained not as a condition of
publishing a newspaper, but as a condition of the postal
privilege. But, is it possible for this house to embody
permanently in one law regulation founded upon such a
basis ? It is perfectly in t lligible if a man tells me that
securities ought to be giv era by those who publish newspa-
pers. There may be dill errences of opinion upon that sub-
ject. Some persons may-,think that these securities are
highly important for the' protection of public order or of
private character. I con fess that I am not of that opinion.
My belief is, that securi ties have this effect—they-provide
that if the man who has. given them commits an offence
against the law, and the party whom ho has wronged pro-
coeds agaiut him in a curt of justice, the Man who has
committed the wrong shall have the means of paying
counsel and attorneys to- defend him. This, I believe, to
be the first effect of these securities. That is a question of
policy, but what questioit of policy, ,or what intelligible
illative or object can be connected with the retention of
securities as a condition sef postal transmission? Why, if
these securities ado imp of -tent at all they are important as
a Ktection, not4o instal men, not to Ministers of the
;0 Members this house, but to the private
Vh,ttactraar ofindividualA. Nov, where is it important to
-44441,private character? Why, within the particular
!spliOril'aviero each Man i.ll known • but if you are to say
;to, a'-olergymaii in Devon u shire, " "iVe will take care you
shall not brtlibelled in Northumberland, where the people
kiricvntillibeg about yoli, but you may be libelled ad
the neWspapeie 3 published in your own town—
i'ou to be belled in that part of the country
Where it is Mateti,al that , you should have your character
defended, but wo-will pi v,vent you from being libelled in
a part of the country wil;ih which you have no connexion or
concern"—it is plain tha t you place yOur law upon an irra-
tional basis, and my r 4 ;let hon. friend will run great risk
. of not attaining the objcet he has in view—namely, that of
effecting a conepletp anCi. final settlement of this long-vexed
question. There is anokher point which is not a matter of
indifference to me—nal n ely, th© question of copyright, for
the protection of literal- property in newspapers. I don't
wonder, so far as we he .o a, anything of the plan of my right
hon. friend from his ex p lanation to-night, that ho has not
included in his biil any 'c lauses upon this subject. I think,
indeed, it is a matter wiith reference to which it would be
very difficult to devise a plan. At the same time lam
under the impression the"- b the proprietors of newspapers,
in many cases, entertain I;reat anxiety that the provisions
of the law with respect tc, the protection of literary pro-
perty should undergo spcte ial consideration, and should, if
practicable, receive some. extension with a view to the
protection of literary prole arty in newspapers. Undoubt-
edly, so far as the article tl eat is most strictly called "news"
is concerned,— for instal:vet), the co'nmunication of facts,
which may generally be comprised within a very brief
space, and the language, the outward shape and form of
which can be varied almost at will —I do not know how
you are to introduce any :further provisions than the law
at present contains ; but I have understood from some

persons who ought to be well informed on the subject
that the great anxiety of those who think this question
worth consideration in the press as it stands is not so touch
directed to the protectim t of their "news," strictly so
called, which in point of fa at it would be very difficult to
protect, as to the protects a of what may more fairly be
called their literary conty asitions —(hear)—for example,
the loading articles in their newspapers, and, especi illy as
regards
.the rotation 'preset; the
,communications of their
foreign earrespbthlents. N'• ow I, for one, am very anxious
thst;either in We plan of iy right hen:friend or in some
other eVective form, this q uestlon should be brought to a
settlement. I Wink what say right hon. friend has stated
te-night inuststifilce to con: vince the house that the sqnes
tion now before them is not whether or not you:will have'
a cheap press. You have gt it your cheap press at this mo-
ment. My right hon. frieisst has told us of one single pub-
licatieu in London which :to w issues some 420,000 copies a
week, and of another which m-ints at the rats of 210,000 a
week. Here, then, are 633,00,000 copies 'of two publica-
tions alone printed annually in this metropolis. How many
more similar publications th,ere may be we have no means
of knowing, but I apprehend thatthis statement is far from
representing the actual number. You have then your cheap
press established in the country. If it does net exist through-
otit the country it is certainly.esta.blished in the groat centres
of the population, and above all in London ; and if we are
to speak of inundation, Leaidon is already inundated by
these weekly prints. By t-he present frame andstrueture
of your laws you prevent the insertion in these publica-
tions of what may be cop .sidered discussions upon public
events, or the statement of public news ; and the question
for the house to decide is, not whether it is expedient to
have a cheap press orte.probibit a cheap press, but rather,
when you have got a cheap press, whether you will give to
the promoters of that cheap press the means of providing
the people with intelligence of the events in which we are
all so deeply interested, with intelligence relative to the
working of our institutions and the passing of our laws, or
whether you will drive them to what is petty and paltry,
to cramming their columns with novels and romances—
whether you will preclude them from affording that infor-
mation which really forms the worthiest material for con-
sideration and reflection, or whether you will allow of 'a
fair competition between public news, as wo understand
it, and those inferior materials to which it is the ten-
dency and effect of the present law to confine the con-
ductors of these publications. Determined as lamto de
all in my power complete-1y to sat free the press—whether
it be a cheap or a dear one—for the handling of public
events and news of all, kinds, and to apply to this sub-
ject those principles of free commerce which have been
extended with such efficacy to the general mercantile
transactions of the country, yet, I fully admit that,
so far as literary compositions are concerned, we now
find them in our existing press of a high standard and
of very great value, and that the principle of pro-
tection to those compositions is a perfectly fair and just
one. lam not prepared to say, and indeed it would require
one more skilled in the law, and better acquainted with
the whole facts of the case and the feelings and interests of
the parties concerned than I am, to point out in what form
this could best be done. Ido not ventare to prejudge this
question, but I would venture to express a hope that, in
endeavouring to carry out the principle of the freedom of
the press, my right hon. friend will not be indisposed to
take into his favourable consideration any reasonable pro-
position which may be made to him for the improvement
of the law of copyright, in order that we may not run any
risk of breaking down that system under which the highest
talent in the country is applied largely and advantageously
devoted to supplying the public with intelligence and to
the discusliou of that intelligence. I must confess that I
should regard the destruction of that system as a public
misfortune—a misfortune which lam the less disposed to
incur, because I do net look upon it as a natural or neces-
sary consequence of the important measure of emancipation
which is now contemplated by her Majesty's Government.
Of course I do not offer any opposition to these resolutions.
When the bill of the right hon. gentleman comes before us
1 we shall have an opportunity of discussing it, and I enter-
tain a most confident hope that it will receive a candid and
favourable reception at the hands of the house.
Sir F. BARING—I am not abOut to enter into the discus-
sion of the motion itself now before the house, but there is
one part of the subject which I think the Chancellor of the
Exchequer dealt with rather unsatisfactorily, and which
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer touched on still more
lightly—l mean that part having reference to our financial.
operations. (Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer stated with perfect candour that ho apprehended that
at least 200,0001. will be the loss on the measure proposed.
Now, I do not pretend myself to draw an estimate dif-
ferent from my right hon. friend, but I would remind him
that Mr. Rowland Hill, in that committee from whose
labours he has derived the great part of his observations,
stated—if my recollection serves me correctly—that the
utmost he thought would be obtained by the adoption of a
measure similar to that of the right hon. gentlemen would
be 130,0001. (Hear.) Mr. R., Hill thought that that would
be the maximum, but there has been some increase of in-
ceine since, and Lapprehend that you may count on the
loss of about. a quarter of a million of revenue in adopting
the proposed arrangement. (Hear.) The late Chancellor
of the Exchequer said that ho thought that by a cheap
mode of carrying books you might obtain an additional sum
of money ; but I am afraid that our finances are in such a
state that you must not neglect any mode of raising money ;
and you will have before long to consider not only whether
you cannot raise money by a cheap mode of carrying books,
but by many other modes also which may be less agreeable
to the house and the country. (Hear, hear.) The present
Chancellor of the Exchequer, though not responsible for
bringing forward. the project at the present moment, yet,
following the example of the late Chancellor of the Exche-
quer,theiasr. proposal
Ih
aatv
ea veryrepe
autaefidtl
yknown—and
time. (Gene-
ralckhes" mofacle
H
perhaps I may sometimes have been guilty myself of
making the statement I am about to describe—that when
hon. gentlemen on different sides of the house have pro-
posed arrangements entailing a loss of revenue, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for the time being has risen and
advised them, in reference to motions affecting the re-
venue, to wait until the financial statement should be
made, and then they would know what sum of money
there might be to dispose of, then a full and comyrehen-
sivseview could be taken of the taxation of the country,
and then they would know how to apply any sum of pub-
lic money they might have to spare in the manner the most
-advantageous for .the public good. (Hoar.) Certainly,
the time to make such proposals is when yea are sure that
you have some surplus; but are yox pretty sure at the
present moment that you have a surplus? , (Hear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer has fairly told you, that if you
pass this measure he must of necessity propose some other
taxation to compensate for the sum it is now proposed
should be lost. Well, then, let us know what is the taxa-
tion which the right hon. gentleman will propose in lieu.
(Cheers.) We all knoW, and no one better than the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that every tax is an evil in itself,
and nothing in the world is so easy as to make a case
against any, tax you please if yen consider it by itself.
But you ought to consider it in reference and in cenapari-
son with other modes of raising money ; and, though there
can be no objection to allow the right hon. gentleman to
bring in his bill and lay his plan fairly before the house,
yet we ought not to proceed to vote away a quarter of
a million of public money until we have before U 8 the
whole state of the finances of the country, and are
thereby able to take a full and comprehensive view of the
subject.. (Hear.) Therefore, I will not now enter further
into the-details of the plan which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer has explained so clearly and candidly to the
house, but if he proposes, after bringing in his bill, to pass
it before his financial statement,'l am afraid that he will
find me prepared, even if I should find myself in a mino-
rity of one, to vote for the postponement of the measure.
(Hear, hear.)

'-itir.'GIBSON—I think that the right hon. gentleman
who has last spoken has not placed this matter on its pro-
per footing. This is not properly a fiscal question, though
it does involve revenue considerations; but, as we are to be
told that this country is unable to meddle with a subject
which incidentaly involves 200,0001. of public revenue,
when it is necessary to do so in order to avoid a vexatious
system of persecutions and difficulties of the most serious
character to the press of this country ? I quite agree with
the right hon. gentleman, that we must be careful in times
like these in not abandoning sources of revenue ; but I
cannot see that we should take such an alarming view of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposition as to reject
it on revenue grounds alone. I am sorry that the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer has left out Of his plan that
portion of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer's scheme
which would have compensated for the loss of revenue
occasional by the removal of the newspaper stamp,
because, while on the one hand, the late Chan-
cellor of .tho Exchequer gave up the newspapiar
stamp, he on the other, byadmittingt for 41hef-etai
time all printed. matter to be carried by tho, Fost-etticce`
at the rata of id. for four ounces, o'ened 4 new seurk.:o4
eo
revenue which, giving great nlzenietic'e'to
would also have compensated, to some extent, the loss in-
curred by the alteration of the nOwsp9per etamplaws. It
is difficult to speculate to what amount this compensation
would have molted ; but as the'whole loss of Me 12119 w&S

calculated at 200,0001., it is quite certain that a large por-
tion of that sum would have been replaced by the postage
rate for cheap printed matter, and, perhaps, even a larger
sum might have been obtained than the 200,0001. about to
be lost. Whether that would be so or not is, of course, a
matter of opinion ; but I hope the present Chancellor of
the Exchequer will consider the peormition of the late
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and add to his plan tho pro-
posal of a cheap rate of postage for all printed matter. It
is a monstrous thing that the Times, for instance, weigh-
ing six ounces, or whatever else, is to be permitted for ld.
to be transmitted and retransmitted through the post for
the term of our natural lives, and yet I may not send once
through the post-office a pamphlet for ld., though per-
fectly willing to pay that sum for a single transmission.
So far from any undue advantage being taken of the pro-
posed change of the law by the transmission of improper
publications through the post, he would venture to say that
for one bad publication gent by post there would be 100
good publications circulated by it. There would be religious
tracts without number from philanthropic societies which
at present had no moans of distributing their Productions
tbioughout tho country. With regard to the securities'
afforded by the present system, the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not correctly stated
the law upon that subject. The liability to give securities
did not apply to newspapers alone. Every person who pub-
lished a pamphlet which commented on matters of Church '
and State and was sold at a less price than 6d., and con-
tained letterpress matter of loss than 1,114 square inches,
was bound to find securities, and also to declare that he was
worth 4001. after all his debts wore paid. At the present
moment no man in this country, according to law, was at
liberty to express an opinion upon paper, and publish the
same at a low price and in a small size, unless ho was worth
4001. after all his debts were paid. These were the previ-
sions of the present law, but they were not enforced, ex-
cept against newspapers only. But if the law wore, not en-
forced; could there be a better reason advanced for repealing
it ? Did he understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that he intended to repeal only a portion of the law respect-
ing securities—that ho was going to retain them as against
newspapers, and to abandon them as against other publi-
cations ? If so, ho considered it would be very difficult for
the right hon. gentleman to show why that distinction
should be drawn. With regard to registration, which the
right hon. gentleman the member for the University of
Oxford proposed to abolish, he would remark that an effec-
tual registration would still exist, because the act of Geo.
111., which required that every printer should put his
name and place of abode to every printed paper, would re-
main in force. Every printer was also required to keep a
register of his employers, and was bound to produce it on
an order being issued by a justice of the peace for that pur-
pose. So that, in point of fact, there would still be a fall
registration of any priitted paper, and means of tracing the
persons who were responsible for its publication, even if
the registration referred to by the bill of the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) were abolished, as that hon.
gentleman proposed. He for one shouldbe extremely glad,
to give his support to the resolutimis proposed by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer • at the same he should endeavour
to add to those parts of the bill which he thought to be defi-
cient, for he could not say that he considered the measure
as a whole to be so good as the one proposed by the right
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford.
Mr. JOHN M`GREGOR would not now express an
opinion on the comparative merits of the measure intro-
duced by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) and the
resolutions now proposed by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. He believed that, by imposing a fixed charge
on 'all printed paper transmitted through the post, the
revenue would not gain back altogether so much as it would
lose by the repeal of the present postal duty fcr such publi-
cations. However, the whole question was one qn which
the opinion of the country was greatly divided, an to whe-
ther the inconveniences of any legislation whatever might
not exceed the advantages that could accrue ft-mai-it. The
great majority of the press were opposed to loth the
proposed measures, while he believed the people of the
country generally would prefer. the bill of the right hon.
gentleman the member for the, University of Oxford
to that now submitted to the ,House by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. There was great truth in what was said
by the right hon. gentleman the member for Portsmouth
(Sir F. Baring), that the house should take into considera-
tion what were the wants of the country, before they con-
sented to throw away any considerable amount of revenue.
He looked with great concern at the present state of the
revenue • and it should have been one of the first duties
of the dovernment to have submitted their budget to the
house, in order that it might be known what were the
means which the Government possessed to meet the largely
increased increased expenditure winch the exigencies of
the war had imposed on the country. It was true that in
consequence of the changes in the Government it had not
been possible hitherto to bring forward any financial state-
ment, but he did trust that in a very short period the
budget of the Government would be laid before the house
and the country for duo consideration.
Mr. WARNER thought that no time should be lost in
altering the existing mischievous state of the law, and for
providing increased facilities for the circulation of printed
matter.

Mr. BENTINCK stated that he could trace a verystrong
resemblance between the resolutions now proposed and
those which were originally introduced by the right hon.
gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. With
regard to the measure before the house, perhaps it was
premature to offer an opinion, but there was one point
touched upon by the right hon, gentleman the member for
Manchester which he was anxious to refer to. The right
hon. gentleman seemed to think that the loss to the
revenue which the measure would create would be made up
,by the ne w description of publications, to be published in
consequence of the fresh arrangement ; but these new pub-
lications would be chiefly confined to different localities,
and would not require the assistance of the Post-office. He
could not help feeling that the chant now proposed would
lower the character of the press, unless some precautions
were taken against intemperate or licentious publications,
issued to serve the purposes of party, or to further the ends
cf private malice.

KIRK- had received communications from the edi-
tors and proprietors of newspapers of all shades of politics,
on the subject of the proposed change in the law, which,
he could assure the Government, they desired should re-
main unaltered.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the
right hon. baronet the member for Portsmouth, that he had
fully considered the financial consequences involved in this
question; and he had no doubt his predecessor had done the
same; but this was not purely a fiscal measure. It arose out
of the existing state of the law respecting the newspaper
stamp duty. In consequence of the indulgence extended to
a certain class of newspapers, the greatest difficulty existed
in the administration of the law, and the Board of Inland
Revenue were so perplexed by the different publications set
up in defiance of the law owing to its anomalous state, that
there had been no end to litigation, correspondence, and
oven debates in Parliament about it. To give the com-
mittee an example of this perplexing difficulty, he would
refer to the case of a newspaper called the Commercial
Journal and Family Herald, a publication of a lite-
rary character, recently established .in Dublin, but
it did not wholly exclude matters of intelligence. A pro-
secution •was instituted against it in the Court of Ex-
chequer in Ireland, but the jury returned a verdict against
the Crown, and although the Irish Attorney-General was
clearly of opinion that the case came within the meaning
of the Act of Parliament, he yet would not advise a second
prosecution on account of the difficulty of obtaining a ver-
dict iu such cases. In like manner, the learned Attorney-
General for England would on a future occasion, be pre-
pared to show the difficulties that surrounded the execu-
tion of the existing law, and if the house then determined
upon continuing the stamp duty, he hoped it would at the
same time be prepared to pass a declaratory act, in order
that the Government might vindicate the majesty of the
law in the case of every publication that came within the
legal definition of a newspaper. This, then, was not a
simple question of whether they should retain Or give up
some 200,0001. a year, but whether the Government should
be empowered to enter into a crusade against a large body
of newspaper proprietors; and since the only feeling which
influenced the Government in bringirg this measure for-
ward was to avoid the latter alteruafive, it was for the
house to decide whether they were right or wrong.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that, as the chief part of the
finaucial responsibility of this measure rested upon him-
self, he wished to say a few words in reply to what had
fallen from the right honourable baronet the member for
Portsmouth. It was pointed out to him while in office
that the present law was not only theoretically absurd, but
its administration was so surrounded with practical diffi-
culties that the Board of Inland Revenue was set at abso-
lute defiance. Now he could not allow the law to remain
in that discreditable state without snaking an effort to re-
medy the evil. Neither the present nor the late Govern-
ment were the only parties responsible for the introduc-
tion of this measure, because the house itself was partly
responsible for it. Last year the house, not at the sug-
gestion of the Government, but rather aeainst its wish and
inclination, and at a time when there was a full know-
ledge on both sides of the house of the warand its demands,
passed a resolution to the effect that the law relating to
newspapers was imperfectly defined and partially enforced.
Therefore it became the duty of the Government to con-
sider what alteration should be made in the law, and he
wished now to ask the right hon. baronet the member for
Portsmouth, whether he was able to suggest or recommend
any mode of altering the law, differing in principle from
that at present under discussion, or the one he had the
honour to propose a few weeks ago. If an objection was
to be taken to the measure upon fiscal and not political
grounds, he hoped those who urged it would not shrink
from declaring their opinion as to any other course which
Government ought to have pursued in order to give effect
to the resolution which the house came to last year.
Mr. LAING would most cordially assent to the repeal of
this tax if we were no/ atvear, and there was a sarplusin the
Exchequer, but looking at the existing state of public affairs,
it was of the highest importance that the house should not
hastily surrender any source of taxation. With regard,
therefore, to the resolution that was passed last year, he
was perfectly willing to bear his fair share of the respon-
sibility that attached to it, or that might attach to its sus-
pension, though he must. remind the right hon. gentleman
the member for the University of Oxford, that the respon-
sibility of passing that resolution did not entirely rest with
the house, because it had been stated that the amount of
taxation which had been proposed would be amply suffi-
cient to meet all demands upon the country.
Mr. BRIGHT thought the hon. gentleman who had just
sat down was contending with a difficulty that really did
not exist. The resolution which the house passed last ses-
sion was passed subsequently to the commencement of the
war ; but, setting that consideration aside, he could not
understand why there should be so much hesitation about
this trifling 200,0001., at a time when the house seemed
indisposed to fix any limit to the taxation of the country,
and eagerly passed votes calculated in millions. But the
fact was, this was not a question of 200,0001., for it was
impossible to say what the loss to the raven° would be. So
long gis the paper duty 'remained it might be made up in
that way, but at all events, if the new postal arrangement
with regard to books were adopted, there probably would
be uo deficiency at all. But this was not a question of
200,0001., it was a far higher question—it was the question
of whether the resolution passed last session should be ad-
hered to or not. There wasyets second question, and that was,
whether the law shouldbe allowed to remain in each a state as
to be easilyset at defiance. Boththe present and the late Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, who must have deeply considered
the question, had come to the conclusion that it was totally
impossible to carry out the laW, and therefore the best
course to pursue was to set the press free. With regard to
the question of piracy, he had no objection to any legislation
upon that subject, provided it could be framed in an equit-
able manner; he believed, however, that it was unneces-
sary, and would be of no use. As for the bill itself, he
hoped it would be brought in without delay, to see if the
house would pass it, because there were hundreds of per-
sons who were waiting its issue, and whose operations must
be suspended in tho meantime. Something had been said
about the press being
opposed to the repeal of the newspa-
per stamp; but he could not discover where the opposition
came from. Certainly a large proportion of tho provincial
press, including the Leeds Mercury and the .111anchester
Guardian, were favourable to it, while, if he mistook not,
the Times last year wrote directly dn favour of its repeal.
So far, then, from such a measure injuring the press or de-
s moralising the people, hen, merabonf might set their minds

at rest upon that sdore. For his own part, ,he looked upon
this as an exceedingly large and imports' 3t measure con-
fined in a small bill; alid Le was satisfied that the repeal
of the newspaper stamp:would in four or five years have
produced more effect upon the' moral and . intellectual cha-
racter of the people than all the public s. jms which had of
late years been voted for educational pu :poses
Mr. PACKE said the measure would c perate as a tax on
readers in small towns and villages, and t his was the ground
on which he believed the local press ' ead a great objec-
tion to it. He should not oppose the resolutions as they ,
stood, but reserve himself for the ni easure when it came
*before the house.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that amongst the evil con-
sequences of the war would be the necessity of increased
taxation. It was clear that if they took 200,0001. off news-
papers, that amount must be put on. scmething else, and it
would be wall to know what that something should be
before this was done. If the law could not be executed,

and the law officers of the Crown were placed in a false
position, this was a good reason for facing tho difficulty
and correcting it in a proper way ; but he wanted to know
why 500,0001. could not be raised from publications ap-
pearing at intervals of a month ? He held that this would
be the sensible and wino course in the present difficulties
of the country.
- -

Mr. J. G. PHILLIMOVE supported the measure as
called for by a due regard to the educational wants of the
people, and by justice to all pasties. -
After a few words in explanation from Mr. BENTINCH,
The resolution was agreed to, as was also the third.
Mr. GIBSON inquired when they would have the bill
before them.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
resolutions would be reported to-morrow (this day), and
the bill would be introduced on Thursday.

SUPPL Y.—TEIE UNFUNDED DEBT.
The order of the day having been moved forgoing into
committee of supply,

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY called the attention of the house
to the state and amount of the unfunded debt for the year
1855-6, which stood at a much higher figure than he thought
this house was aware of-17,183,000/. He most strongly
protested against the conversion of Exchequer-bills into
funded debt, as had been done in the months of Juno and
October last. In consequence of the resolution moved by
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 6th of March,
1854, a sum of 1,750,000/. Exchequer-bills had been unduly
converted into funded debt, a course which he regarded as
entirely without precedent. He hoped they would receive a
clear explanation of the transactions from some person con-
nected with the Government.
Mr. J. L. RICARDO said be believed that there was some
discrepancy between the principle and practice of the right
hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone). The amount authorised to
be raised in 1855 was 17,740,000/., and in 1854 it was
16,240,000/. This latter sum was subject to a deduction of
591,1001. on account of Exchequer-bonds; and, therefore, the
amount which it was expected would be renewed this year
was 15,433,0001. But there was an addition of 1,750,0001.,
which, they were told by the right hon, gentleman, had been
raised by special bills for the purpose of meeting the expenses
which would be incurred before 'the increased taxation im-
posed by the budget of 1854 would come into operation, and
that these bills would be subsequently paid off. The right
hon. gentleman stated this on the 6th of March, and he re-
peated his statement on the 23d of May. He (Mr. J. L. Ri-
cardo) could only say that the return which' has been pre-
sented on this subject was calculated to mislead the house.
From the statements which had been made, no person could
infer that it had been the intention of the right boa, gentle-
man to have added to the permanent unfunded debt of the
country. He did not think that that was the mament for
discussing the abstract question whether it was advisable to
carry on the war by means of taxation or of 'a loan ? He was
certainly not one of those who objected to taxation because it
would render the war unpopular. He wanted to render the
war:unpopular. lie should be very glad if it were made so.
But, at the same time, he believed that the attempt which
was made last year (a vary praiseworthy attempt, he believed)
to carry on the war by taxation was an utter, is-retrievable,
and unmixed failure. (Hear, hear.) And that he believed was
plain from the operations oilast year. As that was the case,
would it not be better for the Government to admit, in a manly
and straightforward manner, that it was a failure ? He be-
lieved that the result of the financial operations of last
year was the addition to the permanent debt of the country
of 1,750,0001. He believed that the right hon. gentleman
could clearly explain how the failure of his plan had taken
place, and that the right hon. gentleman would be the
last man to resort to any subterfuge to conceal anything of
that sort. He (Mr. Ricardo) recollected the open and manly
way in which the right hon. gentleman avowed the abortion,
as ho was pleased to call it, of the conversion of the South
Sea Annuities. He thought that the. hon. baronet was en-
titled to the thanks of the house for having called attention
to the subject.

Mr. WILSON utterly denied that the financial plan, pro-
pounded by the right hon. gentleman the member for ford
last year, had irretrievably added 1,750,0001. to the funded
debt ; and could prove that, on the contrary, the whole of
the expenditure of the country, to the present moment, had
been paid out of the taxation of the country. At the com-
mencement of the year 1853, when Lord Aberdeen's Govern-
ment went into office, the amount of Exchequer-bills was
17,742,000/., and at the commencement of the present year
it was 17,183,0001., being a reduction of 559,0001. But it
might be said that, in the meantime, some Exchequer-bills
had been converted into funded debt. Well, the funded debt
of the country, when Lord Aberdeen's Government came into
office, was 761,622,0001., whilst it was this year only
751,839,0001.; showing, therefore a reduction in the na-
tional debt of 9,783,0001., and, making a reduction in respect
of the Exchequer-bonds issued last year, the national debt
was 9,200,00:11. less than it was at the commencement of 1853.
When his right hon, friend the late Chancellor of the Exche-

quer presented- his first budget on the 6th of March last

year war was not declared, and he did not, therefore, pre-
sent a war budget; but as there was a strong probability
that war would be declared, his right hon. friend stated
that he might be obliged to present another budget before
the end of the session. War was declared, and, on the Sth
of May, his right hon. friend showed that the expenditure of
the country would exceed its income by 6,850,0001., and ho
proposed to meet that deficiency by the issue of Exchequer-
bonds and Exchequer-billi, the repayment of which was to
be secured out of the growing taxation of the country. But
a part of that taxation could not be received until the pre-
sent year. The creation of those Exchequer-bills and bonds
wore no addition to the funded debt of the country. Some
of them were made payable in two, others in four, and the
remainder in six years. It could not be said, therefore, that
the amounts secured by them had been added to the perma-
nent debt of the country. The house had already passed
votes amounting to 3,400,0001. in aid of the excess of the ex-
penditure over the income of the year. The additional sup-
plies had been granted without an exception in ready money,
a thing not usual in any former war. Every demand upon
the Government had been paid from day to day as it became
due. Not a single payment had been delayed one day longer
than it would have been in time of peace. There was nothing
behind which could ever come against them as a future
charge, a great advantage over all former periods of war. The
Government had taken care that, when there was an extra-
ordinary expenditure for the purposes of the war, it should
be regulated in such a manner as not to afford the basis for a
permanent expenditure. If the expenditure was large it could
not be difficult to account for it. The supply service itself
up to the 17th of this month amounted to 9,575,000/. Bat
there were resources to meet that expenditure. On the sth
of April there would be duo in uncollected taxes—not of the
ordinary taxes, but of the additional ones raised for the pur-
pose of the war—no less a sum than 5,020,0001. The income
tax alone amounted to 3,320,0001., and the malt tax to
1,800,0001. No doubt they had had aid from Evchequer-bills
and Exchequer-bonds to the amount of 7,125,0001., but then
there were due, as he had already explained, 5,020,000/. ster-
ling, showing a deficiency of not mere than 2,105,000/., or
thereabouts, whereas, on the sth of April, 1854, there was a
deficiency of upwards of five millions. The hon. member for
Evesbam (Sir H. Willoughby) had made a grievous complaint
because of the manner in which Government proposed to deal
with the savings-banks moneys, but if the Government
were not to be allowed to use those moneys for the general
advantage of the State, they ought at once to give up
the custody of them. Government undertook a great re-
sponsibility, and incurred much expense in regard to those
moneys, and if they were not to exercise a wide discretion

as to the mode in which they should conduct those funds,
the sooner they gave up the management of them the better.

The loss in annual interest during the last ten years, as re-
presenting the difference between the interest paid by the
community on the savings banks' moneys, and the interest
which they had to pay to those who lodged those moneys,
was not less then 431,6601. ; and if to this calculation were
added the friendly societies also, the amount would be
660,0001.' Government bought the savings bank money at
97:3 and sold out at 87i during the last 10 years. He re-
peated, that if no use were to be made of funds which were
such a source of expense and responsibility, the sooner they
got rid of the whole system the better.
. _ _

Mr. GLADSTONE explained that when ho asked autho-
rity last year for issuing those Exchequer-bills, he stated that
they should be redeemed out of the first moiety of the income-
tax, for which he had also applied ; but he also stated, most
Particularly, that this undertaking was only to embrace as
much of tho year as terminated on the 6th of March. On
the Bth of May he made the Budget statement for the whole
year, and explained that, as the whole war expenses would
have to be met, and not the mere cost of transport of an ex-
pedition to the East, he should want both the double income
tax and the Exchequer-bills. (Hear, hear.) The hon. ba-
ronet said that he ought in May last to have stated that it
was his intention this year to renew the Exchequer-bills, but
he would have been guilty of the grossest folly if he had done
any such thing. It was perfectly impossible for him at that
time to come to any determination on the subject. The
honourable baronet spoke of unforeseen expenditure as
foreseen and determined upon, aid said it should have
been provided for ; he also treated that as certain which
was uncertain, and assumed that would take place which
only might take place. The honourable member for
Stoke (Mr. Ricardo) had spoken of his financial plans as
an utter, irretrievable, and unmixed failure ; but he had
advanced no single reason or fact in proof of such an asser-
tion. He was perfectly aware that all attempts to forecast
the expenditure of a war were necessarily in a great degree
fatal, but he never pretended to lay before the house any es-
timate of the war-expenditure of the same reliable nature as
the estimates which were presented during peace. After
having submitted the estimates of the different departments
he asked the house for a vote of credit, and the house gave
him a large additional amount in case those estimates should
be exceeded. Though the war had been carried on with the
greatest activity, and though there had been the extra cost of
a winter campaign, yet the provision made by the forethought
of the house had been nearly equal to the amount of expen-
diture. With respect to the question of the public debt,
nothing could be more easy than to give the house a statement
of that debt at the time ho accepted and the time he quitted
office. He found that in January., 1855, the public debt was
about '2,000,0001. less than in January, 1853, when he ac-
cepted office ; but then, in the course of 1854, there was an
excess of 0,000,0001. of expenditure connected with the imme-
diate purposes of the war, a very insignificant portion of
which was defrayed out of the proceeds of the new taxes.
The hon. member for Stoke, in describing the effort of last
year to make provision for the war expenditure out of the
taxes of the year as an utter, irretrievable, and unmixed fail-
ure, impugned the discretion not merely of a proposal pro-
ceeding from au individual—not merely of the resolution of a
Government—but the discretion of a formal decision of the
house, challenged by a vote upon a division given after much
consideration, and expressing, therefore, the deliberate view
of Parliament, that the expenditure of the year should be liqui-
dated out of the taxation of the country. If the expenses of
the war had been confined to the estimates presented last year,
they would have had 4,000,0001. of debt, contracted by anti-
cipation, and 5,000,0001. of revenue to come in to liquidate it,
so that there would have been an actual surplus of 1,000,0001.
over and above the whole expenditure of the war. But the
expenditure had gone beyond these bounds. If, instead of
paying the expenses of the year by means of taxes, they
had taken a loan to the same amount, he apprehended they
would have been equally open to the risk of the expenditure
going beyond the proper bounds. His own impression was,
that money raised by taxes went as far as money raised by
loans, and even went a little further, because the house was
disposed to keep a sharper look out after the expenditure of
public money raised by taxes than it did of money raised by
to entrap the house
inloantostle(olldemia;,4ll9neara.)4ll7ll;rilllacaidpiQnowwbiiscil34l
-

consideration of th , exigencies with the most perfect and
entire freedom ; but, as a matter of retrospect, he thought
the house could not look back upon the operations in which
it had been engaged—and which, in his opinion, were neither
a failure nor an abortion—without considerable satisfaction at
the course it had very wisely thought proper to pursue.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI thought that nothing was more important
at that period of the year than that the house should be
favoured with the financial statement of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and, under present circumstances, he recognised
additional reasons for their being favoured with such an exy.o-
sition. He must say he lamented the circumstances which
prevented the house and the country enjoying the advantage
of the right hon. gentleman's statement. He felt, however,
as he was certainly placed in a position of great difficulty and
responsibility, that he hada right to throw himself on their
consideration; but while according to him the justice he
demanded, he (Mr. Disraeli) must express his belief that
nothing could be more inconvenient, if they were
,to be de-
prived of a financial statement by a Minister of the Crown,
than these desultory discussions, which were not brought
forward under circumstances which justified that consideration
which the country required. With regard to the supplies
which they might be called upon to grant, the hon. gentleman
the Secretary for the Tieasury concealed nothing from their
notice ; indeed, the hon. member communicated his know-
ledge in a tone which, ho confessed, rather astonished him.
The hon. Secretary for the Treasury said, " I had so many
difficulties to meet." Ego et rex metes was the burden of his
speech. (Laughter.) Ile did not know whether those who
sat near him were prepared to submit to the despotism of the
Secretary for the Treasury. With his (Mr. Disraeli's) limited
experience of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
was not prepared to say in what part he would take the speech
of the hon. gentleman, but he did not think the late Chancel.
for of the Exchequer would have been so willing to yield to
his surveillance. All the hon. gentleman said might be per-
fectly true and authentic, but he preferredhaving it from the
proper officer at the proper time, when he gave an official ac-
count of the liabilities and resources of the country, and he
'declined entering into the subject at present. The question
brought, very properly, under their consideration was one of
a much more limited character, and so far as he had listened
to the hon. member for Stoke, it had been submitted to them
with temper, and, as he thought, with accuraoy. There
could be no doubt that in March last the house was clearly
under the impression that the vote then agreed to, of Exche-
quer-bills, was intended as a temporary provision for the wants
of the year, and was quite distinct from the usual votes of Ex
chequer-bills which were proposed in committee of supply.
The house and the country generally did believe that the tem-
porary loan of March was to be defrayed out of the ordinary
reverme of the year. Iu the present year the usual Exche-
cider-bill was brought in, and they found an increase in it of
1,750, NW- The SecratarY of the Treasury said it was not an
increase of the permanent bill. No doubt, technically, it
was not se? .bus it was so compared with th 3 temporary as-
sistance which the right hon. gentleman the member for the
University first submitted. Their condition was this In
March, 1854, a considerable vote, not much less than two
millions of Exchequer-bids, was taken, upon the distinct
understanding by the House of Commons that it was tem-
porary vote for the temporary aid of the public service,
and that it was to be defrayed out of the accruing revenue
of the year. Was it a matter of wonder that the house
should ask for explanations in respect of so considerable
a sum, or that they ,should draw what appeared to
him to be the natural and necessary inference from the cir-
cumstance under which the fl, ancial system of the late Go-
vernment was established. It was very unfortunate that,
having agreed in March with the house that they should vote
a temporary supply of two millions, to be defrayed out of
the accruing revenues of the year, the Government should
have considered that contract to be permanent, although it
was not so understood by hon. members on either side of the
house. He did not object to a Minister, in the difficult posi-
tion in which the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was placed,
borrowing 1,750,0001. if he came forward and asked for that
amount • for, if he had asked for 17,000,000 t. he could have
obtainedit. It was not the amount, therefore, or the extra-
vagant expenditure, that they complained of, but the manner
in which what was called a temporary loan was converted
into a permanent debt.
Sir F. BARING said they were indebted to a noble lord

(Lord Monteagle) for pointing out the way in which this sum
of 1,750,0001. had been introduced into the ordinary Exche-
quer-bills. It was not necessary for him to repeat the state-
ments made in March, that the Exchequer-bills which were
then issued were to be paid off out of the accruing produce
of the revenue. The words of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer himself were —" These will be raised and paid off out
of the current revenue, and you will never hear anything
more of these Excheqner-bills." After that statement, he
did think that it required explanations before they were con-
verted into a permanent debt. The right hon. gentleman
said that he did give such explanations on the Bth of May.
Now, he had read the debate in the other house, he had
read through the speeches of the right hon. gentleman, he
had read through his speech of the Bth May that very morn-
ing, and it was not till ho heard the construction which he
(Mr. Gladstone) put upon his words, that he was able to see
that they were sufficient to convey the meaning that he at-
tached to them. He did not know that his own colleagues
were aware of it—(laughter)—for the defence which they
made was not the defence which he himself put forward. At
the end of the session the Queen's Speench diainetly stated
the same principle—" I fully recognise your wisdom in sacri-
ficing present convenience, and in providing for the immediate
exigencies of the war without an addition being made to the
permanent debt of the country." (Hear.) He would go to
the speech of the right hon. member himself, in which, in
,speaking of these:Exchequer-bills, he said, " They constitute
a debt permanent in itself, but the obligations of which are
renewable horn year to year." In point of fact, they had
transformed those bills, issued for temporary purposes, into a
permanent debt of the country. (Mr. Gladstone—No, no.)
He used the right hon. gentleman's own words. (Hear.)
The Secretary of the Treasury said that he had also explained
it, and having said so, of course he must allow that he bad,
but it was rather singular that no hon. member appeared to
have heard him, and the ordinary channels for spreading in-
formation through the country had not noticed any such ex-
planation. (Laughter.) He thought it was very important
that, when any change of this kind took place, such explana-
tions should be given to the house that there could be no
misunderstanding.

Mr. GL&DSTONE was sorry that it was necessary that he
should have to explain what was said on the Bth of last May.
The right hon. gentleman who spoke last said, and said truly,
that he (Mr. Gladstone) contended, on the 6th of March, that
the Exchequer-bills in question would not be renewed. He
complained that he did not, on the Bth of May, state that
they would bo renewed. It would have been impossible and
absurd to give such an explanation, because he did not then
know it. What he said on the Bth of March was, that, ac-
cording to the plan then proposed, they would not be renewed.
What he stated on the Bth of May was, that, after making
full provision for the sot vices of the country, it was necessary
to have a further command of cash of about 34 millions, and
in that further amount he included the 1,750,0001. of Exche-
quer-bills, The right hon. gentleman, he was sorry to say,
said that he did not understand it. (Laughter.)
Mr. LAING did not by any means agree in the opinion
which the right hon. gentleman the Secretary to the Trea-
sury seemed to imply that the Government, in respect to
savings bank funds, should act as a private banker. The
two positions—that of the Government, and that of a private
banker—were utterly dissimilar, Take one instance of this.

The private banker was perfectly justified in making transac-
tions in the funds, upon the strength of the private informa-
tion which reached him, but the Government could not act
upon any private information in their possession without
seriously compromising its position. (Hoar.) So that, in fact,
the Government could not conduct any great operations in the
same manner as a private banker could, and, consequently,
the whole comparison failed. He wished to seo the savings
bank funds put upon a different footing from that in which
they at present stood, and he believed he was not wrong in
stating that his right lion. friend the late Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not be averse to a change. (Hear, hear,
from Mr. Gladstone.)
The subject then dropped,
MEDICAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR THE SICK AND
WOUNDED SOLDIERS IN THE EAST.

On the question that the house do now go into a comittee
of supply,
Mr. STAFFORD rose for tio purpose of calling attention
to the medical arrangements for' the sick and wounded sol-
diers in the East, and in so doing reminded the hon. gentle-
man the Under Secretary at War (Mr. Pa,el) that he succeeded
to a department which it was believed lod inflicted more
horror and suffering on our poor soldiers than could well
be described. The letters from soldiers in ojr service, the
information in the public journals, and the evlenco before
the committee now sitting, all went in confirmation of the
terrible disasters which due want of care and management
had inflicted on our army. it was expected that a new elm! of
diseases would break out, and new horrors might be expecteci,
unless the Government made the necessary preparations. He
took it for granted that the unspeakable horrors of the hospital
at Balaklava had been at least to a great extent remedied, and
that it was not what it wa.s when he saw it— a disgrace to any
civilised country. He hoped the hon. gentleman the Under
Secretary of War would be now able to give satisfactory in-

formation as to the treatment of the soldiers, and that proper
shelter in the shape of huts had arrived for the sick and
wounded in the Crimea ; also that proper arrangements had
been made for the transport of the sick and wounded from
the camp to the harbour. The question of the transport of
the sick was of the greatest importance, for so cruelly had it
been conducted that were one able to see through the depths
of the Black Sea, he believed the way from Balaklava har-
bour to the Bosphorus might be traced by the skeletons of
those who were thrown overboard the transport vessels. He
also hoped to hear front the hon. gentleman that the GoVern-
ment had made, at length, efficient arrangements with re-
spect to the medical staff, and that the orderlies in care of the
sick were not now perpetually invalids, who brought disease
instead of vigour to the bedside of the patient. He also
trusted that better means had been provided for the debar-
kation of the sick at Scutari, which was most unsatisfactory
at the time he left. On the 6th of November last ho wrote
from Smyrna to the War-office, calling the serious attention
of the Government to the circumstance that an hospital
should be opened at Smyrna. There were three or four
months in the year during which it was said the climate
there was not healthy ; but during the greater portion of the
year, and especially during the winter season, the climate
was warmer and more suitable for the improvement of those
suffering under pulmonary complaints than the climate of
Constantinople. But having let the cold weather go by, the
Government was now about to establish au hospital at
Smyrna—that was to say, during the most unhealthy season
of the year. (Hear.) He warned the Government, if they
would have an hospital at Smyrna, to take care it was not
overcrowded, and that its internal economy was properly su-
perintended. He trusted the Government would spare no
expense or labour in sending out to the East a proper supply
of wooden huts, which could be used with great advantage in
warm weather, and were more easily purified than stone build-
ings. He hoped the War-office would send outhuts for at least
5,000 men. As to the propriety of imitating the French in
bringing home invalids, there could be no doubt but that the
change of climate and scenery, and the spirits which the
prospect of coming home afforded to the sick soldier, would
have an effect on his health that could scarcely be exaggerated.
Provided the transport ships were as they ought to be, and
the whole care and attention of those who had charge of them
were directed to the supervision and care of the sick and
wounded, most beneficial consequences would result ; but
the whole attention of the authorities who
prohoadmotthe the
trans
ports under their control should be given t
econms--
fort of their huma
en cargo. He had heard many complaints
of the indiftbrenc shown by the War-office to offers of the
most noble kind which had been made to them—offers
ema-
nating from the most disinterested patriotism. An tiowthere being a civil service office established at Smyrna, it was
of the greatest consequence that" the cases should be discri-
minated, and that there should be a man at Balaklava to de-
cide what cases should be sent to Smyrna and what to Scutari..
He thought the officer to _
examine the transports, either at
Scutari or Balaklava would be a most important officer, and
he trusted that in his selection the authorities would take care
that justice was done to the civil surgeons as well as the mili-
tary surgeons. He trusted also something would ba done to
improve the condition of soldiers in casemated barracks.
Mr. PEEL could assure the hon. gentleman it was quite un-
necessary for him to declaim being actuated by any spirit of
hostility, for he had established a good claim to have any of
his remarks on this subject received with attention. lie (Mr.
Peel) entirely concurred in the sentiment which the hon. mem-
ber paid had been expressed by Lord Panniuro in another