The Sun.
London, England, 1855-06-06 00:00:00

THE. SUE, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING JUNE 6 18556

es
tradition of the spirit which she then exhibited to animate lt was, said the hon. and learned gentleman, no longer
her patriotism, Russia would make a less stubborn resist- a question of terms ; Russia was
a perfidious Power,
ance to us than she did to Napoleon I. ? It was his belief , who never observed the treaties into which she en-
that we had entered upon a task the greatest, the most ar- , tared ; and the argument of the hon. and learned
duous and the most difficult that ever a nation undertook, 1 gentleman went to show that we are now fi ;hting,
of
not
and that we should have to more than double our energies, i for terms, but for the honour,
glory,' and suoremacy
.the number of men engaged, and the money we had spent in I England throughout the world. Well, sir, that opened
a single year, before we should succeed in accomplishing our ; out an alarming prospect. Then, again, in the progress of
objecc. Ought not we to tell this to the people, andto sulelue ' the debate, the hon. member for the Montro, • burghs has
rather than excite their feelings s Suppose we should Buller declared his opinion that the time has now :arrived when
reverses, and have to contend not only with-intermittent it is not safe to conclude a peace with Russ: while that
fever, but with plague and cholera in addition? Ought not country holds a single ship, port, or fortress in the Black
the House of Commons, instead of cheering the Minister Sea. Then, again, lamat a ldss to understand what is the
when he told them that, the conference .+ were clotted, not to precise and definite object for which this war is to be we ged.
subdue the spirit of the country in a rightecus cause, but to It is a trite observation, yet it is one which en this partion-
let it know fully and fairly what Was before it ? What he lar occasion iltogether inappropriate
h, tat one poandint
blamed the Government for was, that they had played of a eood minister s not eis to avoid involving is h
c ountry
falsely and treacherously with the people, and there would war:for, experience shows us, and history teaches, us by ex-
be a reckoning with them in the country. The noble lord ample, that though it is always easy to involv country
at the head of the Government said in one of his harangues, in a war, it is very difficult to carry on that war with the
that the people of England were his reserve force—what had full and cordial support of the people for any very great
he done to make that reserve available? The noble lord length of time. I will illustrate this position by reference
the member for the city of London said in December that to history, and since the great rebellion there have been
we afore have 160,000 or 200,000 Englishmen under arms, wars that afford instances in support of what I have
with foreign levies to aid them. Where were they? There stated. In 1739 Sirßobert Walpole was at the head of the
had been the setae child's play all through, from the be- Administration of this country. He was a popular and a
ginning up to the present moment. (Opposition cheeri) most successful minister, but he most reluctantly declared
All he asked was, that they would deal candidly with war against Spain, in which the people of England entered
the public. He had noticed that, whenever the mass of a most heartily at that time. Nothing, indeed, ever excre led
people became cruel, revengeful, and unreasonable towards the popularity of that war at its commencement. Every
Governments, or towards their leaders, it was because they class of society rivalled each other in their efforts to carry
thought they had been betrayed ; and there was nothing on the operations of the war. The lea ling members of the
by which the Government would so surely risk the loss of Opposition took a most active part in it, and even a prince
public favour, and reap public calamity, as by attempting of the blood formed one of a procession when the war was
to conceal from the people of this country the whole declared, Sir R. Walpole was against the declaring that
amount of the difficulties and dangers which were now war, but he did so in deference Co the will of the people
hanging over them. It was on this account, and becense but within two yeers, he, from being the most popular Mi.
he would not be responsible in the slightest de
for what !lister who ever held power, was abandoned and left with-
might happen in this country, that he wished speak out out support from any quarter, and, after his overthrow, the
on this occasion ; and he warned hon. gentlemen that there country became discontented with the whole operations of
were no institutions which might not 'be in danger from the war, which was suffered to drag its slow length along for
from the reaction that might take place from over-san- some seven or eight years amid the execrations of the peo-
guine confidence in the war we had now undertaken. He Pie, and, to use the expression of a right hon. gentleman,
had seen public opinion out of doors take sudden and an ignominious peace was the result. The conferences
strange freaks. He had seen the men who clamoured at Aix-la-Chapelle were kept open with the desire of
the loudest for war, after the first disasters meeting tope- delaying the progress of negotiations in the hope that for-
thor, not to denounce themselves, or to take to them- tune might turn in our favour. But fortune did not smile
selves the slightest demerit, but to denounce those who upon our arms ; adversity followed instead of success, and
were highest in the land and most responsible. And when after the negotiations had been protracted the war was at
he saw what had been the course of proceeding in the last terminated by a peace, in which, I believe, the only
face of what he must believe to be superior informs- instance in history occurred of our actually sending two
tion—when he saw the way in which in high places the hostages to Paris—the Earl of Sussex and Lord Calthorpe.
passions of the people had been pandered to, and a mere The Pretender, who was then in Paris, and had witnessed
momentary triumph sought at the risk of great future dis- the arrival of those noble lords as hostages, exclaimed,
aster—he must say that he thought many of these persons "If ever the day should come when I shall have recovered
had deserved the retribution with which they had met, the throne of my ancestors, my first desire will be that
He would never so far truckle to the popular spirit as to hostages shall come from Paris to London, and not go from
join in any cry which should divest the mass of the pee- London to Paris." Well, sir, this was the result of the
pie from what he believed to be their first duty, viz., to war of Sir R. Walpole. Allusion has been made to the Awe-
consider how far they were responsible for what had fallen rican war, and to the last and longest war, namely, that
on the land and how far reform ought to begin at home. with France, but it should be remembered that in the case
He had s ken as he had done because he believed that
engaging in a war, the of both those wars there were palpable and direct British
we were difficulties and dangers of
objects involved. The war with America was a struggle
which were understood by neither the Government nor for empire. There were no less than 13 British colonies
the people. Were the Russians at Portsmouth he should at stake, which the Sovereign of this country be-
have taken a differenttole ; but it was to counsel mode-
Booed to be the glory and too brightest jewel of his crown,
ration and caution that he had made this long, and per- and which he never would consent to have - severed from
haps somewhat tedious, appeal to the house. (Cheers.) this country. Daring that war we suffered many dieas-
Mr. COLLIER said the great value of the present de-ters ;we had thousands of miles to traverse, and we strug-
bate was that it had explained the causes of the misma- glad in vain. The war finally ended in disaster, the effects
nagement of the war. Those causes were now clearly of which are still regretted, and by many believed to be
seen to be the presence in the Cabinet of right hon. almost irreparable. But it was believed, notwithstanding,
gentlemen who were determined that this country should that terms might at the commencement have been possi-
not humble the enemy, and who seemed to consider them- his. That, however, was a war in which England was
selves equally charged with the interests of Russia as of fighting for an empire. Then, what was the case in regard
England. He inferred from the remarks of the right hon. to the war of the French revolution? That was a struggle
baronet the member for Carlisle on Friday week, that that of another kind ; but still its object was direct and imnse-
right hon. baronet meant to transfer his allegiance to the cliate as touching the safety of our native land. I hear an
right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks, because that expression of dissent from an hon. member below me, but
right hon. gentleman was more pacific than the present I must beg to state what the cause of that war appears to
Government. He was thankful that the Russianismg ele- me to have been. In this world of ours the pride of em-
went had now left the Cabinet, and in the improved con- pire has proved to be be the source of groat commotionund
dition of the army they traced the effects of a firmer productive of mighty effects; but there is another passion
policy; and if the Prime Minister would continue the course of the human mind which has produced'equally important
he had adoted, he would carry with im the unanimous consequences, I mean the inglorious passion of fear—" Pri-
opinion of tphe country. He characterised the arguments mns in orbs dens eat Timor. Fear has subdued empires,
of the hon. member for the West Riding as fallacious, fear has made wars, and it was the fear entertained of the
and severely commented on the bad taste shown in the dangerous principles that existed at the period of the
way he spoke of our recent successes in the Sea of French revolution which involved this country in war.
Azoff, and the exultation with which he anticipated What was the fear ? Was it a
groundless fear ? I think
the progress of fever in the Crimea. He condernue 1, also that fear was rightly entertained, and the danger boldly
the manner in which the hon. gentleman violated the con,- 'met. There was a regicide, there was a blood-stained
fidence imposed with respect to then private meeting of the guillotine, there was the declaration of Jacquerie, there
Liberals in Downing-street, and cocluded by expressing was the declaration of the Social Propaganda, there were
his opinion that the-stropl,
people of England would ba glad to all the horrors of the French revolution. Those appres
know that the conferences were terminated, and that peace hensions were not ill founded which led to the cam-
must now be sought through the vigorous prosecution of mencement of the French war. In its progress it
the war. internecine war, and afterwards a struggle between the
Lord H. VANE intimated his intention to support the first Napoleon and the rest of the powers of Europe, the
amendment of Sir W. Heathcote. He admitted that the question, so far es this country is concerned, being whether
limitation of Rustian power in the Black Sea was difficult, England should be a free and independent nation or should
become an appanage and mere domain of France? Reference
and he thought the Russian propositions were as well cal-
c has been made to the vast cost of the war, and an, earnest
ulated to secure that end as that proposed by the Govhrn-
appeal has been addressed to the house on that subject—
ment, and he believed that a peace concluded upon those
terms would have been beneficial to Europe. • "0 ! missies hominum mantes, 0 ! petters cmca."
Sir S. NORTEICOTE opposed, and Major REED supported, It has been stated that no less a debt than 500,003,000/ has
Mr. Lowe's amendment. been incnned to maintain the Bourbons on the throne of
Mr. EWART, though a firm friend of peace, would sup- France, which was rescued from the great conqueror Na-
port the vigorous prosecution of the war, believing that poleon I. by the glorious successes of our arms, led on by one
wort
the shortest road to peace. At the same time ho was of the greatest generals that the world has known for these
not for a war of nationalities, and he had no idea of crush- 1800 years—a general equal at least to Caesar, and only in-
ing Russia, but ho wouhe leave the terms of peace in the ferior, if inferior, to Napoleon himself. (Cheers.) But hay-
hands of Government, and could not therefore support Mr. ing succeeded in establishing the royal throne of France,
Lowe's amendment. and having incurred
.?
Mr. VANSITTART condemned the Government fur at the gramisire's sore regret,
' standing upon such a nice point of honour as their inter- From age to age an everlasting debt,"
pretation of the third proposition, and he was therefore in- it so happens that the very next heir of that great con-
clined to support Sir Wm. Heathcote's amendment. He queror is now on the throne of France; and not only on the
would not, however, press that, but he called upon the throne of France, but is our powerful, our cordial, and, I
Government to lay down some definite course of policy, on must add, our faithful ally. This surely deserves some
attaining which they would conclude the war, pains why we should reflect, first of all, upon the facility
Mr. F. SCULLY defended the conduct of Lord John with which war is waged in this country, and then' pro-
Russell in the Vienna negotiations. coed to consider what you have for its object. You per-
Mr. CROSSLEY had been opposed to the war altogether ceive that the wars to which I have alluded have been
at its comtuencemsnt, but being once engaged in it he was national and direct wars in their object, but the war
for a vigorous pro.ocution of the w,tr. which we are now waging with Russia is '
Mr, J. G. PFIILLIMORE severely censured the conduct which our interest is remote and contingent—distant iistaennteauln
of Mr. Gladstone, and urged a strenuous prosecution of net immediate. I have already • i tit t. I 'fjn, a
salt. ___a _ am one 0.. ...ORO
the war. who are responsible for the declaration of this war. 110 not
Sir J. GRAHAM—I can assure you, sir, that I never regret it, but I think it ought to be always borne in mind
what was the precise object of the war. No ar, sir, I must
rose in this house with feelings of greater embarrassment take exception to some doctrines which I hove heard act-
or of greater pain than those which I experience op the vanced. lam not one of those who believe that during
present occasion, and like my hon. friend the member for the progress of a war it is perfectly legitimate to vary you;
the West Riding. I shall appeal to the generosity of this terms according to the degree of success attending your
operations. But, while I say I think your terms may
house, inasmuch as I am well aware that the opinions vary, I am strongly of opinion that the object for which
which lam about to express are not in accordance with you embarked in a war should be n view,
those t steadily • l 'ew
those entertained by a majority of the members of the and that that object Should not vary, whatever maybelia
house, and I shall make this appeal with confidence beceuse, success of your arms. Now, the object for which we em-
being in the minority in which I feel myself, lam sure of barked in this war was the maintenance of the indepen-
l
a disposition on the part of the house to deal: fairly with dente
object,
the integrity of Turkey. , That was the avowed
, and, I contend, the sole object, of the war. I con-
' j , ice. (Hear.) It is painful to undergo taunts such as those side;t that the war was necessary and just, me] that the rea-
which last night and this evening have fallen from hon. sons for it were twofold. First, there were the covert in
gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, who accuse teutions of Ressia, which were concealed from the English
those who are anxious, even under present circumstances, Government, and which were followed up by the overt act
of the invasion of the Principalities. Now, sir, it, will be-
te obtain a peace, which appears to them an honoure cble ome my duty shortly to refer to the negotiations which
one, of being Russian auxiliaries, or, or as other hon.have taken place. I will not enter into details as to the
members say, of being friends to Russia. Now, Sir, it is I settlement of the first point in reference to the prine,i sali-
necessary to submit to taunts of that description, and ties—the immediate object of the war ; for, though cLop-
the only consolation which is left to me is that wiser lions could be taken to it with reference to certain par-
tho on which the hon. member for the West Riding
and better men than myself have had to undergo observe-
cmo,roethteed, yet in the main the settlement proposed did
tions of a similar description. (Hear.) But I feel that in commented,
perfect independence of the principalities,
the present, circumstances of this country I cannot fairly and,
instead of placing them under the protectorate of tssi'
be called a friend to Russia because I take a course which, placed them under that of the four contracting European
Powers, and they stipulated that no negotiations should
if I neglected to take, I should consider myself an enemy take place with reference to the principalities without the
to my own country and a traitor to those whom I represent, whole question being laid helve the fear contracting
y
and I should feel myself guilty of baseness if I hesitated Powers. The second point, with referbnce to the na '6,a
manfully and fairly to express to this house and to the tion of the Danube, I will not discuss at any length, 'lani
country what are my opinions with reference to the policy of merely state that in the main the propositions of the noble
lev,i h
:‘,llS,vereeacceded to. It was agi cod that the navigation
o the present war. sly position with regard to this question is placed under a European commission, in which
different from that held by other hon. gentla'nen who are of England was to have a voice, and precautions were taken
opinion that the late negotiations should have led to peace, with respect to keeping opeq, not only the course of the
and who have constantly and consistently objected to the river, but also its month, w Fiera impediments had arisen.
war from its very commencement. I, on the contrary, The management of this was to bo plactd under a local
committee, to be created bya European commission which
have entertained the opinion, and I still entertain it, that couldoetr nott be dissolved except by the consent of the four
the war declared against Russia, was a just and necessary
former evening
Itthe was
.erroneously stated on a
war. That opinion, I say, I have entertained, and I still ureirseeronoooefstaeoittlavatiof,ovractoZtlehee
kept at the mouth of theci
adhere to it, but the real question now at issue, according
to my humble judgment, is, have the real objects been ob- faithful performance of these stipulationsywas negatived
t by Russia; it was not so, tie question was only reserved
ained for which the war was undertaken, or did the con-
till after the settlement of the third point. I think I
ferences which had been held at Vienna establish a fair
• am authorized to state to the home the spirit in which
ground for believing that an opportunity was afforded, if the Russian envoy accepted tho four points. On the
improved, of bringing the war to a satisfactory termina- eit of December, immediately after the signature of
tion ? Besides having entertained and expressed the opi-
ointheacfcoeoprtinpgoiottsl7
distinctly
the treaty by ustria, France, and England, the BAIR-
s jan
contained envoy,
onneogooet negotiation o nt h ae
that
Mons to which I still adhere, that the war originally was
a just and necessary war, it was my duty in the Govern-ti
rnent of Lord Aberdeen to fill an important post connected he accepted them, renouncing, on they tof his C par
with the conduct of the war ; and when the hon. members vernment, the spirit of the religious protectorate of
for Leominster and Plymouth have asserted that it is now Russia over the Christian subjects 'ofTuprk
quite plain what were the causes which led to failure, while cing the political protectorate of the principalities,ey.,renoun-
I and those who act with rue, and who with me left the seating to the free navigation of the ul con-
seating to
of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, also consenting to the revision of the treaty of 1841. Danube,
occupied a position in the administration of affairs, I tell wore the declaration made by the Russian envoy who ac-
them, in reply, that, although it would ill become um to tested these bases, and I consider it • importhnt that they
speak of my own efforts or my own conduct, still this much should be borne in mind d • during thisdiseussion, because I
I can say, that from the first moment when I went to the think that it will be found, after a I careful investigation of
Admiralty I used my best exertions to prepare the nav l the negotiations. that the Rus • !lan envoy did ag.tee in the
forces of this country for any emergency which • a main throughout these
might' discussions to the concessions which
arise. (Hear.) My efforts were sincerely and constant
the
he made at their commencement. He consented to that
directed to that end long before the commencement of the which was the most important of all the questions—viz.,
war, and during its progress I endeavoured to the best of the religious protectorate claimed by P •
s la
of
fvfear the Chris-
my ability to provide ample means to meet the want 3 of Chris-
tian subjects of the Turks, which, in .'olli',
the public service, and when I left office I hope, and I may immediate origin of the war. I will notp gno bacitcttOwtlreCliilse
say I think. that those means were not found deficient by puted question as to what took place with
respect to the
dinette •
my successor. (Hear.) Having made these observations, I • slows as to the holy places—for it was stated by the
my lord the
shall now pass on to the observations which I conceive it member for the city of London, who then
to be my duty to submit for the consideration of the house. held the seals of the Foreign Department, th,at, in the
On a former evening, before the commencement of the re- opinion of England, at the commencement of that,
in
the
cess, I urged upon e Government the propriety of ad- first threat of force did not proceed from Russia, but that
journing this debate, because I was of opinion that a sub- Rutsi was in the right and France was in the wrong• The
jest of such magnitude and importance ought not to be heir- Emperor of the French, with great magnaminity, having the
riedly discussed, and it appeared to me impossible that in spirit of peace, which cannot be too highly commended, on
the short remains of one evening it could meet with enter consideration of the whole question and the conduct of his
cient consideration, and I therefore pressed the adjourn- ambessatior at Constantinople, receded from the claims of
ment of the debate. During the interval a very fin- his ambassador, whose acts he disavowed, and bo placed
portant change has taken place in the state of af- France in the right, which had originally beenin the wroug.
fairs. The conferences at Vienna were then open ; they against Hear Russia had a distinct and just cause of complaint
Turkey with reference to the transaction to which 1
are now closed. It appears that, since the conference
of the 26th of April, a proposition has been made by have alluded, but I think the tone adopted by Prince Mens-
the Austrian Government to the Governments of England chikoff on his mission to the Porte was wholly iuconsis-
vend France which, in the opinion of Austria ought to have tent with the respect due to an independent Power. This
insolence—for I can call it by no other term--coupled
h_ ehn submitted to the Russian envoys, and which afforded
with the invasion of the Principalities, rendered it it,para-
lane at least of an adjustment of the difference not being
impossible, an w hear from mount duty on the part of the allies of Turkey—England
a now the
noble lordat
the
head of tli, C' ' ' and France—to come forward in its defence,and
to secure
jaded that proposition,
that England and France have re- its
independence, which had been ' +so vrola.,ed. (Hear.)
As matters and that the conferences are closed. • house•
Will the permit me now to state what in my opinion
fore the recensoswt stance, I think that, if it was important be-
is the strongest part of the present case, and which deserves
great question, that time should bo given for discussing this
tocareful conbideration ? I agreed with the hon. member for
has greatly in,
circumstance to which I have adverted
Hertfordshire when he said it was not politic by force of
In the first place, I shthe gravity of the present occasion.
vise proposition rna,lecild wish to know what was the pre- arms, when engaged in war, to humble an adversary; but
I think that discretion should be used in cases of the kind
and France ; and in theYflAustria and rejected by England
formed whether it is the opinion •
Place I should wish to be in- where insolence was followed by aggression, and that hu-
ment that the four points,pwiTienliof her Majosty's Govern- miliation by force of arms was a necessary part of the
conduct of the war. But look at the result of the last
about, ought to be maintained as re Lave lic!ard so much
tiation, or whether fresh terms the bases of future nego- war with Russia and contrast her claims at the
which alone England will consent to deal been fired, upon commencement of the war with the terms on which she
deal with Russia ? was willing to conclude peace at Vienna, and I think you
I cannot conceive any question of
or one which deserves on the part greater importance, will not find that the history of any war shows any
more frank and immediate explanation, because
a greater alterations in tone and terms than those which
I have have been obtained in the late conferences of Vienna from
observed in the progress of this debate in this 1485
popular
n as- Russia, and obtained, as I contend, by force of arms.
sembly with what rapidity an inclination has s
itself Before proceeding to investigate in detail tne demands
to raise the terms to be determined upon as a ;
stele and
before concluding a peace. Ido not see
the gem
eien concessionstl of Russia, I must state that in my opi-
and learned member for Enniskillen (Mr. 'Whiteside) hon,i of this the
dst by
which. you ought to try negotiations
. tly,place, but before the recess be made a speech which lord the British wisely and well laid down by the noble
Plenipotentiary 'on that occasion,
4101MAITIII"louse will remember—a speech remarkable fur its eh). when he declared that, in his • • opinion, at the com-
its energy, and its force—a speech worthy of the meneement of negotiations
, * , ... • and worthy of the high position held by the hon. Sound in width the
' . a
ate, ed gentleman at the bar of Ireland s. but, re- 1
' *I*71•1•‘1. \yr 'eas a-""htes that ape h for its eloquence, it was no
c su ted and duly u went on to teak honorolfaothtereaty of peace could be
adversary was not
considered.con-
(Hear.) The noble lord then
th-e:h. --!.' -""3 fr) the •' ee
was
in ' which, if tention and tee another obeervation to which I call ridden-
Lite -et.. see acted e opinions expressed it—opinions...He said, with which I cordially a Cientirely subscribe.
11:Poti, would lead to interminable hoatilitiee. (Hear.) , _ ref_to ll subscri
thhw this question of honour, that
\PI ~-_-_----- - ~, . • .
' .

.~ ~

the defence of Sebastopol, on the ono hand, and the attack
on the ether, had covered the contending armies with
equal glory, and that the military honour of Russia,
France, and England, was safe as affected by those opera-
tions. I will now recall in detail to the recollection of the
house what were the demands and language of Russia at
the commencement of the war, and what, after a year's
fighting, were her submissions—for I can give them no
other name—on which she was willing to conclude peace
at Vienna. Her first pretension was, that no other Power
should be permitted tointerfere in anynegotiation between
Russia and the Sublime Porte. That pretension was as-
serted repeatedly in the most arrogant and offensive terms.
Let us contrast with it the result. All the negotiations
for the last two years, by the forced consent of Russia,
have been conducted by England, Franco, and Austria on
behalf and in aid of the Sultan. (Hear.) Her next pre-
tension was, that the Turkish ambassador must sue for
peace either at St. Petersburg or at the head-quarters of
the Russian army. A more arrogant pretension than
this was never put forward ; but now, let us see,
has it been abandoned ? Why, through the medium
of Austria. If Russia not ask, she, at all
events, suggested the holding of the conferences at
Vienna. Prince Menschikofrs head-quarters were no longer
the only place where Turkey could sue for peace, for her
plenipotentiaries met the Russian ambassador at the con-
ferences held in the capital of Austria. What was the
next pretension ? Russia refused to meet the Turkish envoy
at any conference upon equal terms, alleging that Turkey
had not been admitted into the family of European States.
Ask the noble lord who has just returned from Vienna, and
who sat at the table where the conferences were held, whe-
ther the Russian ambassadors sitting at the same table did
not discuss upon equal terms proposition after proposition
with the Turkish envoy. That envoy met the ambassador
of Russia, met the noble lord acting on the part of England,
met M .Drouyn de l'Huys and the other plenipotentiaries
at the same table on terms of perfect equality, and the Inca'
strolls pretensions of Russia were not only recalled but ne-
gatived in the most decisive manner. What was the next
pretension? The principalities were occupied by Rus-
sia as a material guarantee. The conferences wore opened
at Vienna, the Russians are expelled the principalities,
and those principalities aro occupied by the Ally of
England. Russia, not satisfied with occupying the princi-
palities, had passed the Danube and advanced into Bul-
garia. How was that met? By a treaty of offensive and
defensive alliance, that if Russia advanced to the Balkan
a cams belli must arise, involving the necessity of other
great European Powers taking part in the war as well as
France and England. But has there been no military
success ? Has there been for the last nine months a single
Russian on the right bank of the Danube? By the valour
of the Turks themselves, by the gallant defence of Silistria,
the Russians were expelled, not from the principalities by
Austria, but from the Turkish territory by Turkish arms.
Then the fleets congregate in the Black Sea. It has been
the boast of Russia that the Black Sea was virtually
her possession, that she had at her command a naval
force which gave her complete dominion over it.
Her boast also was that in the Baltic she had a fleet

nity will not be lost of obtaining the greatest of all bless-
ings without the sacrifice of national honour. I have
heard it said that we are fighting for prestige. It is a
most dangerous doctrine. You must adhere to a definite
object in the war, though I admit your terms may vary
with the view of giving effect to your object. There is
something, I think, in the present balanced state of the
contest in the Crimea which makes the conjuncture favour
able to a settlement. The honour of England is safe by
the victories gained wherever we have come in contact
with the enemy, and the advantages of those victories is
perceptible in the lowered tone of the enemy, orienially so
arrogant and insulting. Though not the friend of Russia,
I think the honour of Russia should be considered ; but if
you wish to push her to the wall in driving your terms,
there is something passive in her resistance, and though
vanquished she will not yield, and not yielding she will
not make peace. Pam by no means satisfied that if this
opportunity be lost—even if our arms be victorious—that
it will soon recur. (Hear, hear.) I wish to throw all
taunts and party feelings aside. It is a great crisis—sur-
sum corda. Let us elevate our minds and feelings to the
interests of a great nation. The claims of humanity are
at stake, and I am confident we will best serve our coun-
try if we consider those interests, and those interests only.
The greatest blessing we can confer on her, either as
regards her interna prosperity or her foreign rela-
tions, is peace. The opportunity is favourable, and to
the latest hour of my life I should regret if the opportu-
nity is lost. Ido not think all the money spent or the
losses sustained will be thrown away if peace be obtained.
I think both England and France have been taught some
useful lessons. I think Russia also has been taught that
arrogance mast be abated, and that herpretonsions cannot
be sustained. Ido hope if peace is restored that wo shall
not hastily reduce our establishments—certainly not our
naval establishment—and our military force only in a small
degree. I think it only consistent with our position
among the great nations of the world that we should main-
tain both large naval and military establishments. If the
object of this country in the prosecution of the war were
the maintenance of the integrity of Turkey, then we must
cast aside the hope that we should be able soon to return
to a small naval or military force. It must be recollected
that when once a weak state called into her aid the assist-
ance of a powerful auxiliary, just in proportion to the
length of time which the former depended uponthe latter,
i n the same proportion did she require its future support;
(Hear, hear) Whether the principle of limitation or any
ether expedient was adopted, he was still decidedly of
opinion that to maintain the integrity of Turkey would be
an object, the accomplishment of which would, day after
day, be found to be more difficult. The great test of
statesmanship, he felt assured, would be found to be to
make the necessary provisions for the fall of the Ottoman
empire, and to take care that Constantinople did not be-
come the property of Russia, upon the one hand, or of the
Western powers upon the other, and the policy which
such a state of things rendered requisite could not bo sus-
tained unless the English Government were backed by an
adequate force both by sea and land. (Hear, hear.) He
had endeavoured to express his opinions upon the question
before the house openly and dispassionately ; he had en-
deavoured to refraan,in giving expression to those opinions,
from using a single word that could give offence to any
hon. member, and he had only, in conclusion, to thank
the house for the attention with which they had lis-
tened to the remarks which he had felt it to be his duty
to make. (Hear, bear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the observations which have
been made in the course of the debate on the negotiations
at Vienna, and especially the observations made by the
hon. gentleman the mekber for the West Riding (Mr.
Cohen), render it incumbent upon me to make some expla-
nations and offer some remarks. In so doing I shall endea-
vour to imitate the calm spirit in which my right hon.
frieind the member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) has dis-
cussed this matter.. As he has observed, we are not now
considering any question of party triumph or party inte-
rests, we are looking to the great question of the condi-
tions on which peace may be obtained, or the objects of
the war which we have entered upon may be accomplished-
It seems to me that these are the two great questions—if
you are determined to have peace, on what conditions can
you obtain it?—lf you mean tdcarrylon the war, for what
objects are you to wage that war? (Hear.) Now, sir,
with respect to the first of these questions, let it be re-
membered, as rey right hon. friend truly observed, that we
have already in the very short period of Isestilities gained
very great objects from Russia, who, beginning with say-
ing that she would not negotiate except with Turkey
alone, and with Turkey at no other place than St. Peters-
burg, or the head-quarters of the Russian army, after-
wards consented to sit down as an equal at the conferences
with Turkey; that although Russia at the first maintained
her ancient treaties with Turkey must not be disturbed,
was quite willing to consent to renounce that protecto-
rate which she had hitherto—whether rightly or wrongly
I will not dispute—exercised over the principalities, and
that she was ready in making a new treaty to renounce
all the articles of those treaties which in the course of cen-
turies she had been able to effect by means of victories in
the field and skill in the Cabinet. These concessions, and
some othersofgreatimportance, Russia madein consequence
of the league formed against her and the successes we have
gained in the war that we have carried on. Still I could not
help feeling that we were in this position, and I stated it
very soon after my arrival at Vienna to Count Buol as a rea-
son why I did not entertain any very sanguine hopes from
the conferences—l said that the Western Powers had met
with successes sufficient to justify them in not making
peace except on terms which should guarantee a full se-
curity to Turkey against future aggression; but, at the
same time, Russia had not had such reverses that we could
, expect her to make all those concessions which would give
the securities which we were bound to demand. This was
the position in which the negotiations began. It may be
said, why begin negotiations at such a time ? That was a
necessity imposed on us by the treaty with Austria. Oar
treaty with Austria on the 2d of December provided that
in certain cases Austria should join with us to obtain the
four points even by force of arms ; but Austria said natu-
rally, as I think, for her own interests, with full consider-
ation of the importance of entering into a war, that she
must first ascertain that Russia was unwilling to make
peace on terms which Austria should think sufficient. It
was necessary to ascertain that course, and for that pur-
pose the conferences at Vienna took place. My right hon.
friend who spoke last said truly that, with regard to the
first point, we place the principalities of Wallachia and
Moldavia under the protectorate of the Five Powers, in-
stead of their being placed under the sole protectorate of
Russia according to former treaties. We
,provided—al-
though the hon. member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden)
is very ill-satisfied with those terms (hear, hear)---we pro-
vided for free legislation, for liberty of worship, and for
the freedom of trade in the principalities. Every mem-
ber of the conferences—the Russian Minister amongst
the rest—was perfectly willing that the administration ,
and legislation in these provinces should be entirely na-
tional, and not be interfered with by any other power.
The honourable gentleman criticised some of the provisions
of the protocol respecting these provinces, much in the
same way that they were criticised on a former occasion.
Let me say, in the first place, that I am entirely respon-
sible for having agreed to those terms. They do not im-
plicate the Government to which I belong, and I am
ready to take the whole of that responsibility, but I must
say that those terms do not bear the sense which the
hon. member for the West Riding has placed upon them.
He says that the natives of those principalities are not to
engage in matters dangerous to the tranquillity of their
country, but the real engagement is, they are not to enter
into intrigues which shall ho dangerous to the tranquillity
of their country. These are the terms, and I own that I
consider the position of the principalities is a very critical
one. They are in close proximity to Russia, and to Aus-
tria, and to Turkey, and it will be very' difficult to main-
tain the independence of legislation and government in
those principalities. In the first place, neither Russia nor
Austria will allow intrigues to be carried on in these prin-
cipalities against the security and tranquillity of theirown
provinces. By the articles of this treaty no Mussulman
was to enter into the principalities, and if the Turkish
armies did enter into them, it would bo an interference
with the power of self-government. I hold it to be a diffi-
cult thing to make a satiefactory, arrangement on these
points. Tho Turkish Minister at Vienna had no authority
to make an arrangement on this subject, and it was agreed
that, with The consent of the ministers of Russia rev'
Austria, that the future arrangements should be made at
Constantinople, with the concurrence of all the Christian
powers there. Some persons imagine that it would ho
better to make the principalities entirely independent. I
believe that in that case they would fall immediately
under the power of either Austria or Russia ; and that
perhaps there would be a contention between those two
powers as to which they should belong to, and that they
certainly could not maintain their independence. But in
providing for the freedom of religion, of trade, and of legis-
lation, ethought we did much for the happiness and secu-
rity of those provinces. With respect to the Danube, it
was said the other day that Russia only gave up the power.
of having a querintine ; but it will be seen from the treaty.
of Adrianople that Russia was also to have a number of for-
tifications on the banks of that river. It should likewise be
remembered that English and French commissioners were
to exercise a general supervision there ;
and by a proposal of
mine that commission was only to be.dissolved by the con-
sent of all the powers, so that the freedom of the navigation
of the Danube might be thoroughly secured. We come next
to that great point which is called the third point ; and
before I touch upon it I must allude to the regret expressed
by my right hon. friend that the Governments of England
and France did not permit and sanction the conference
going into the qnpstion of the fourth point, and endeavour-
ing to settle it before discussing the third. Now, upon
that I must remark that that point was far fro& being so
easy of settlement as my right hon. friend supposes. (hear.)
I had several conversations on the subject with the very
intelligent ambassador of the Porte, who spoke to me very
earnestly, and protested against any article being inserted
in the treaty by which the Porte should renounce in any
way its independence and be made to depend upon the
Christian powers withPregard to its own internal affairs.
(Hoar.) I thought that objection, or rather suggestion,
with respect to the fourth point a very reasonable one;
but
at the same time I saw that the plenipotentiaries of Russia,
and probably of Austria, would be very anxious to obtain
such a settlement of the fourth point as would have enabled
theta in some way to control the legislation of the P orte as
regards the Christians. In discussing the fourth point,
therefore we should have found ourselves in very consi-
derable difficulty, and I certainly could not have consented
to any arrangement of that point which, on the one hand,
did not provide for equal privileges to the Christians and
Mahomedans, and which, on the other hand, would have
enabled any of the powers to interfere with the internal
affairs of Tuba,. (Hear.) I come, therefore, to the third
point, upon which there has been so much discussion, and
upon which we had the misfortune not to arrive at any
conclusion. And hero I think my right hon. friend rather
takes advantage, as some others have done, of the mode-
ration displayed by the Western Powers in order to
thanas a
once propositionsstated
aeci
say, "As you were willing to concede so much—as
your terms were so moderate—why did you not make
them still more moderate and so secure their acceptance
by Russia 1" (Hear, hear.) The proposal which was sug-
gested by the French Government, which does not appear
eoltooqcoulesl,lebeuatnawhaibcihlitwyasby themore
French Minister M. Drouyn de was that there
should be what he called a neutralisation of the Black Sea,
wiinththgereaPtr
that it should be a sea for the purposes of commerce only,
and, being so, that all arsenals and forts for the purposes
of war should be destroyed, and that there should be no
establishments in the Black Sea except for the peaceful
purposes of trade. Well, that was a large and, I must say,
in itself a very good proposition, bat the moment it was
mentioned the Russian ministers at on e declared that
they never could agree to any measure which put an end
entirely to their military forces in the Black Sea, and pre-
vented them having any force with which they could re-
sent the insults even of a small power on that sea. Now,
it was in order to meet that objection, and to offer
nothing that was not extremely moderate, that we pro-
posed that, with the view of putting an end to Russian
preponderance in the Black Sea—the very terms to which
all the powers, including Russia herself, had consented—
her naval forces should be limited. I ask, how else were

at all times, when the weather permitted the free naviga-
tion of the waters, amounting to 30 sail of the line. What
has become of her ships? By the suicidal hand of
Russia herself, in fear of an attack, a large portion of them
has been destroyed. Talk of prestige ! The naval pres-
tige of Russia, whether in the East or in the Baltic, has
vanished before- the superiority of the allied Powers of
France and England, and I do not think that we shall hear
much more of Russia's naval supremacy either in the Baltic
or the Black Sea. Then, again, I ask what was the cha-
racter of the works at Bomarsund ? They were works of
the most alarming description, and erected in defiance of
a treaty. Nothing could prove more clearly the justice of
the war at its commencement than the very fact of the
existence of that fortress. But where is it now? Razed
to the ground by the attack of France and England ; and
, Russia has been taught a lesson not speedily to be for-
gotten even by such a Power as she is. Now, let us pro-
ceed to the Danube. Under various pretences Russia has
practically, for the last three or four years, had the nen-
mend of the mouths of that river, and the lower portion of
it, the most important in regard to the trade of the prin-
cipalities, was in her hands. That power she shamefully
abused by various artifices; first, by the establishment of a
line of quarantine, next, by the erection of powerful bat-
teries at the Salina month, by which both sides of the river
were commanded by Russia. What are the terms which
the noble lord successfully negotiated with respect to the
Danube ? Russia consents to remove the line of quarantine,
to have no fortifications at the Salina month, and to place
the navigation of the river under a European commission,
in which England should have a voice. The fourth point
to which I have already adverted is with respect to the
rights, privileges, and immunities of members of the ortho-
dox Russo-Greek faith within the dominions of the Turk,
claimed as being placed under the peculiar protection of
Russia ab antiquoin force of treaty engagements, and espe-
cially that of Kainardji, with Count Nesselrode's enforce.
ment of his demand, on rejection of the Tarki sh amendments
of the Vienna note. It will be remembered, with respect
to this particular claim, it was alluded to in the terms in
which I have read it to the house, when made by
the Emperor Nicholas himself at an audience which Sir
Hamilton Seymour, the British Ambassador, had with the
Emperor, and reported by Colonel Rose to Lerd Malmes-
bury as made at Constantinople so far back as 1551 I very
much regret that the British and French Governments did
not consent at the conference, pending the reference of the
third roint, to proceed to exhaust the fourth. I think if
they had proceeded to discuss that point there is every
reason to believe that no practical difficulty would have
arisen in its adjustment. , All doubt would have been
removed with respect to the remaining points of difference
between the contending parties, the ground, would have
been cleared, and a near approximation to peace would
have been obtained. The Austrian Government was
anxious that the point should be discussed. Russia
was willinglo discuss it. It was France and England
that interposed. Prince Gortschakoff then, on the, part
of Russia, made an important declaration with refer-
ence to the fourth point. He regretted the delay in
discussing it, and said that he was ready to discuss it
at once, and that he attached no practical importance
to it. Having at the commencement of the negotiations
declared that he accepted the bases, foreseeing the necessity
of renouncing the exclusive protectorate of Russia, he sad
that nothing could give greater facility to the Sultan in
governing his empire. Not only, then, were the first and
second points fully settled, but in this fourth point I Con-
latently believe there was no insuperable difficulty. On
the third point the pretension of Russia was that the in-
dependence and integrity of Turkey was not guaranteed by
any stipulation of the treaty of 18:10; that it was assumed
in the preamble, but not ratified by any specific engage-
ment. On that part of the question a complete explanation
teo'c place in the presence of the noble lord. What was the
result of that explanation? SJ fir from holding that the de-
claration with respect to the independence and integrity of
Turkey was not a subject of stipulation in the treaty,
Prince Gortschakoff consented that the independence and
integrity of Turkey should be gnarenteed by treaty: What
was most remarkable was, that the terms of guarantee pro-
pesed by Russia were varied by the Turkish envoy, and his
suggestions were adopted by the conference. I have gone
through seriatim the pretensions of Russia at the com-
mencement of the war, and the conclusions arrived at after
the conference. There remains only that portion of the
third point which relates to the means by which the naval
preponderance of Russia in the Black Sea should be dimi-
nished. When I was a member of Lord Aberdeen's Govern-
ment, I was a party to a proposition made to France with
reference to the mode of giving effect to this third article,
by a limitation of the Russian fleet. As being a party to
that proposition, I am bound to state that it was never re-
garded by me as an ultimatum, that it was submitted to
France, and was not accepted by her as are ultimatum, and
that it was not proposed at Vienna either by France or
England as an ultimatum. It would be monstreus to begin
a conference with an ultimatum. It would be utterly
inconsistent with the whole proceedings of a negotiation
to do so. If ever there was a negotiation clear from
such an absurdity it was the conferences at
Vienna, because ia good faith and in the very face of the
stipulation with respect to the third point, it was stated
that the parties proposing these terms should have the
ri :lit to va y them in accordance with the events of tho
war. Clearly, therefore, the proposition was not an ulti-
matum, and not being an ultimatum, I come to consider
healer, on the whole, this being the only ground of dif-
ference, it is prudent to insist en it. If I had had any
doubt at all, I am bound to state that the result of the
discussion in that house has convinced me that ,as an ulti-
matum it is not tenable. On this point the observations
of the hon. member for the West Riding are so strong and
so well founded that it would be impossible to overlook
them. Steam has made an immense difference in this
matter. If you allow Russia in the Black Sea four of the
lergest ships of the line, with all the advantages of the
screw and with a proportionate number of smaller vessels,
believe that even with the limitatien you propose the
whole object of Russia will be effected. You would mark
your distrust of her without taking adequate means to
check her. If Russia proves faithful—and for 40 years she
has been your ally without any complaint on your part—
no such stipulations are required. But if she proves per-
fidione, then no limitation such as you propose would be
of any avail. Another observation to which I attach groat
importance, because it is well founded, is this—lf you ob-
tain that stipulation, are you prepared to go to war if Rus- ,
sia should have one ship or two ships more than the stipu-
&tad number? (Hear.) It is admitted on all hands that
the interest of England in this matter is remote and indi-
rect, and that the interest of Austria is direct and imme-
diate. Austria has a far deeper interest in this matter than
either France or England. Let me observe that the position
of Austria at the abrupt conclusion of the negotiations was
not at all that which it was at the commencement of them.
The observations of the hon. baronet the member for Herts
last night with respect to Austria were wise and judi-
cious. I think she has, under very trying circumstances,
Been the faithful friend of England. Her position is very
peculiar. She stands, as it wore, on a narrow isthmus
between the two great seas—the barbarism of Russia on
the one hand, and the military ambition of the Western
powers on the other. She is in a position of enormous
difficulty, and is entitled to our utmost forbearance. I
hold that peace—a great blessing to all nations—is in a
paramount degree the policy of England. (Hear, hear.)
Peace also is the policy of Austria. She, therefore, is the
natural ally and friend of England. We ought, seeing her
position, to bear with her infirmities, but, above all, we
ought not to quarrel or come to a hasty rupture with her.
I think we are entitled to know the proposition which
Austria made to England and France at the close of the
conferences. I regret that the noble lord was not present
at the conference when the Russian envoy made his last
proposition. I quite agree with the noble lord that Eng-
land and France were justified in rejecting the proposal
with regard to a mare apertum. Bat I entertain quite
another opinion of the proposition of the 26th of April,
and regret that the noble lord was not nresent'when it was
made. I think that that proposition was not to be re-
garded as an ultimatum, because Russia was not justified
any more than England and France in beginning with an
ultimatum. I think that that proposition, though not
perfect in itself, did afford, as Count Buol and M. Drouyn
the elements of an adjustment. Dronyn
heard the proposition, and having de-
cddleoarlia'lidatituYhYsaatsahadiit;naig afforded the elements of a settlement, pro-
ceeded to Paris, and the noble lord proceeded to London,
but he had the advantage of discussing this question with
tho Russian envoy, and the still greater advantage of hear-
inrgotuhyenodpoinriHonuyofs
wAausswtreilal
sllaptiOsnfieldt.wißthilimheoularsstapyrsopthoasittiol;
D
as moulded by Austria; that he submitted it to his govern-
ment; that the Emperor of France was not unwilling to
accept that he proposed to the English Government that
it;
thyee
xonee
rsec shouldsuedenceth arocofcuegtphhto itthi
n;efi
uanneondbciteeholsoftridtth.se r
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eplace in
n rumournt
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_rohuayvni wnd
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knowhaving
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broughtwnho a ttl information
atprop?
propositions
proposedwe a retiredr
e afrl itlo bmot out the councils act Government—andoousnpeei Isa o f theF French finding
d+
imn p re j
sle euhtreao:vil
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out on
uthuisssi
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respectstated t
o withoutthis
question.reserve
lowama pnosition. and
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ianndgo.
vtoweilahtthee_
Russia. lam not the aueek admirer of
friend of Russia, but I am the sinocterae friend and
of peace on honourable term._ I hope the golden opportu.

you to obtain a cessation of Russian preponderance in the her Majesty on the subject of the vigorous prosecution of the
Black Sea? (Hoar, hear.) I have heard manygentlemen war. (Hear, hear.) If other gentlemen, taking a different
soy that this plan would be inefficient. Ido rot believe view should like to move an amendment to that motion, with
that it would have been `'u practice inefficient, because I the view of forcing the Government to an immediate re-
believe that immediately eussia offered--I will not say by renewal of negotiations, of course it will rest with them to
one ship, but by two or three ships, or oven by a large do so. But, having spoken to my noble friend on the subject,
forcee--to continue her course of aggression, the suspicious I know he is of opinion that such a course would be far more
of Europe would have been roused, and that what does not regular, and more befitting the proceedings of the house, than
seem at first sight a perfect security, would have turned the discussion of such motions as are now beforeit. Of course,
out in practice to have been a security for Turkey, and should the souse choose to go on with with the discussion, it
consequently a security for the peace of Europe. Bat, sup- is out of our power to prevent the house from taking that
posing that plan was not to be insisted upon, in what man- course ; but it seems to us that the course I have suggested
ner was this term to be carried out ? I presume no person would be more regular, and would lead the house to decide
will maintain that it was my business, as representing the aye or no whether it will continue to support the Government
Government of her Majesty, to give up that which we lin the course they are pursuing. (Cheers.)
thought perhaps the most essential of all the propositions Mr. ROEBUCX then moved the adjournment of the debate
iu the four points, with a view to put an end 'to the pre- until Thursday.
ponderance and to the aggressive ambition of Russia. Well Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I agree with my noble friend,
how was this to be done? My right bon. friend says with that, under the altered circumstances in which we at present
great truth that it would not have done to have accepted the• stand—that, seeing that the conferences have been finally
first proposition of Russia and to have allowed Russian fleets closed, and that negotiations are at an end—that the course
topass from the Bosphorus to the Dardanelles, and ernm the which was suggested by the right hon. gentleman under diffe-
Derdanelles to the Bosphorus at their pleasure. It is ob- rent circumstances, when the negotiations hadnot terminated,
vious that if we had consented to those terms that not only and when the conferences were not concluded, would now be
the fleets of Russia would have passed through the Des da- the simplest and plainest course. We are at present discuss-
males, and thus have increased to a very large amount the ing a series of amendments, and many boa. gentlemen have
Black Sea fleet, but the latter would have come out from great difficulty incoming to a conclusion upon them. The
time to time, and, passing close by the Sultan's palace, question which the house has a right to consider is, how the
would have paraded the.watere of Greece with a view to Government has conducted these negotiations, and whether
raise discontent and disaffection among the subjects of the the house, under the circumstances in which the country is
Porte. Add to this the facility of means, whenever the placed, is willing to give to her Majesty that assurance of sup-
Czar of Russia might think proper to send his fleet to Con- port in the prosecution of the war which I think the house
stantinople in order to enforce some unjust demand. I will be disposed, by a great majority, to affirm. The course,
think, therefore, that the first Russian proposition would therefore, I propose would be to agree to the adjournment
not have been stefficien'. Let me here observe, that the proposed by the lion. and learned gentleman. We 'shall, in
notion which the hon. member for. the West Riding has, the course of a day or two, receive the protocol of that con-
that these great Ships could be built in America and sent ference which took place yesterday. We shall then be in a
into the Black Sea, has no foandation to rest upon, because condition to advise her Majesty to submit to Parliamentthose
that elan could not be carried into effect so long as we closed papers which will show the course of negotiation up to the
the Dardanelles against Russia ; and unless we admit the last moment, and then Parliament will be in a condition to
opening of the Dardanelles it is impossible that ships-of- judge of the course which ought to be pursued. e(cheers.)
war built in America could pass into the Back Sea, or Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, the suggestion of the noble lord
could furnish the great fleet to which the hon. member has appears to me to be very unsatisfactory. More than three
alluded. We now come to the second proposition of Rus- weeks ago I made a suggestion to the noble lord, he having,
sic, made on the 26th of April. My right hon. friend and by command of her Majesty, placed papers upon the table,
others think that was a good proposition to accept ; but it that he should follow the usual course of Ministers in his po-
is impossible to see iu that proposition any real difference sition, and move an address to the Crown on the subject, so
between the prepceaderance ofßussia as it stood before the that the house might have the opportunity of expressing an
war, and the preponderance of Russia as it would have re- opinion on the manner in which the affairs of the country had
mained if the proposition had been accepted. The only dif- been tra,nsaeted, and also of expressing their determination
ference is,that in case of naenacethe Sultan mightcall up the to support her Majesty in the prosecution of the war, if she
fleets of his allies from the Mediterranean ; but in ordinary should think it necessary to carry it on. But how did the
circumstancesthere wouldhave been no difference whatever; noble lord receive the suggestion ? First, in silence, and then,
the same preponderance would have existed; and how, was when he broke through his taciturnity, in a spirit of jocula-
Ito say, or how was Lord Westmoreland to say after I rity and in a tone of levity. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord
left Vienna, that we insisted upon the cessation of the has given no reason why the debate should not proceed. If
Russian preponderance in the Black Sea, and at the same the noble lord he'd placed these papers on the table—which he
time we consented to replace Russia in exactly the same ought not to have done if the negotiations had not been con-
position in which she stood before the war ? • (Hear.) But eluded—if he had said, while placing the papers on the table,
my right hon. friend thinks that Count Buol was satisfied negotiations are going on, and it will probably be my duty
with this proposition ; but I beg, though it is a rather to place other papers on the table—nobody would have urged
long passage, to read to the house what Count Buol act- the noble lord to take the step which I suggested, and I
ually did say. He said that— should not have made the motion which I thought it my
duty to submit to the house. But the noble lord placed
" The project developed by the Minister for Foreign Affairs
the papers on the table, and it was legitimate and necessary-
of Franco and declined by the Plenipotentiaries of Russia,
contained a complete and efficacious system ; that he could
e° for the house to express its opinion on the conduct of the ne-
tiations and all that has occurred has occurred in cense-
not say as much of the propositions put forward this day : '
auence of the conduct of the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) There
that Russia, in attaching to the mutual guarantee the value
only of an engagement not to encroach on the independence has' be, question add what has been been an attempt made to distinguish between the Mini-
steriai
nd territorial integrity of the Ottoman empire, reduces it, called the other question.
a
I d 6 not understand how the distinction is established. If we
in fact, to an obligation which may be said to be self-evident; discuss the policy of tl e Government, that is as much a Mi-
that the arrangement proposed to act as an application of the . .
tenet question as the One in which we proposed to visit
principle of the cessation of Russian preponderance in the
Black Sea, limits itself to the power reserved to the Sultan the conduct of the. Administration with censure. Now, what
is the position in which the house is acd 9 We have' be-
of calling foreign fleets to his- aid whenever the preponderance
fore us an amendment of an honourable member which the
of the Russian fleet should become threatening to him, which,
noble lord has publicly safd he shall support. That motion
in fact, would only tend to augment the chances of a mis-
introduces the main question of the negotiations that have
understanding; that, to sum up, the Russian propositions
proved abortive at the conference, and whether we adopt the
could only be considered as including prinCiples of a nature
first or second amendment, or both, the sense is the same. If
to be introduced into a general and complete system." ' you only accept the first amendment, to which the noble lord has
That was the opinion which the Austrian Plenipotentiary pledged himself, and oppose the second, which I gather it is the
gave of this Russian proposal. How then, if we rheant to intention of the Government to do, the only deduction that can
insist upon the cessation of the Russian preponderance in be drawn is that, in consequence of Russia rejecting the prin.
the Black Sea, could we agree to the Russian proposal? ciple of the diminution of her naval force in the Black Sea,
(Hear.) I have now stated why I think we could not accept we feel it our duty to announce to her Majesty that we are
the conditions of peace as proposed by Russia. Of course, ready to support her in the vigorous prosecution of the war,
if Russia chose to consider that she was not sufficiently de- the only inference being that all means of negotiation are
feated in the war to agree to our terms, she had a right to exhausted ; or whether we accept the second amendment,
refuse them. I have been much criticised for having alluded the deduction is the same and the inference is inevitable. The
to the somewhat analogous case of the treaty of Utrecht, question having been discussed for two nights, whether the
I when the fortifications of Dunkirk were destroyed ; but I House of Commons will sanction as a sine qua non the propo-
havegained thereby what was a virtual admission on the part sitions made by the noble lord in his character of plenipo-
of Prince Gortschakoff, that it is not a question of honour, tentiary, it is trifling with the house to say that the debate
but a question more or less of defeat and of inferiority in is not, to be brought to its legitimate • conclusion, and that
the war. Because no Man maintains that Innis XIV., in the opinion of the house is not to be taken on this legitimate
making the treaty of Utrecht, signed a peace inconsistent question. No papers which the noble lord can place upon,
with his honour • on the contrary, it was a peace very cre- the table can affect the importance, or touch the paramount,
ditable, almost glorious, to that monarch ; but in agreeing interest of the question raised by the amendment of the hon.
to the terms of that treaty he agreed to that which was the member for Kidderminster, and I trust the house would not
consequence of his defeats ; and therefore the Russian stultify itself after the debate which had been carried on fpr
plenipotentiaries admitted that a similar treaty might be two nights, and after some of the most eminent members of
accepted now, provided only that Russia were more de- the house had given their opinion on the subject, and after
fasted, and received more checks in the course of the war. the minister had accepted the amendment of the hon. mem-
I believe that it is not at all a question of the honour of her forKidderminster, upon which the whole question of the
Russia. I believe, on the contrary, it is that Russia sees conduct of the negotiations could be raised, by making the
that she has no reason as the war at present stands to re- debate a tabula rasa, merely because in a few days the noble
nounce in any way those aggressive projects which she lord could lay on the table one more paper to complete the
sedulously entertains, which she intermits, which she lays history of negotiations admitted to have been abortive. I
by for a time, but which Catherine entertained, which the trust the house will feel it due to its character to express a
Emperor NicholAs, at the latter end of his life entertained, distinct opinion' whether the limitation with respect to the
and which the present Emperor has almost openly avowed, naval force of Russia in the B ack Sea shall be a sine qua non
and is now endeavouring to carry into effect. (Hear.) That in a peace between the two countries.
I believe is the reason, and not a question of insulted dig- Mr. BRIGHT quite agreed in the observations of the right
nity and offended honour, which induced Russia to refuse hon. gentleman. The proposal made by the noble lord cer-
the propositions of the Western Powers. I now come to'a, tainly seemed to him the most extraordinary he ,ever heard
very serious question, upon which I must decline to give even from the Ministerial bench, and that was saying a great
that definite answer which' an hon. gentleman opposite deal. (Laughter.) They had for the last two ni hts been
asked for, namely, "If you are forced to continue the war, discussing, in overflowing houses, the question wether the
and if yen find that the only terms which you can propose Government had acted for the true interests of the coun-
for giving real security to Turkey are refused, what will bo try in laying it down at Vienna, as a sine qua non of peace,
your object in the war?" My answer must be a very general that there should be a limitation of the naval force of Russia
one. It is, that our object will continue to be, as it has hi- in the Black Sea. That question was of ten thousand times
therto been, the security of Turkey against Russia, and more importance than the convenience of a Ministry or the
therefore a securityfor the peace of Europe. I cannot believe existence of a Cabinet, and it was certainly a most extraordi-
that if Russia were allowed, uncontrolled, to work her own nary proposition that now, because the Government had got
way towards the capital of the Turkish empire, making per- into a sort of hocus peens, into which it invited the house to
haps small progress in 1855, the greater progress ton years plunge itself—(laughter)—they were to give up its further
hence, and still further advance twenty years hence, that discussion merely because the noble lord at the
head of the
the independence of Europe would he secure. (Hear, hear.) Government. always fertile in expedients, he might say eve-
Every one has seen—the incident has appeared lately in signs—told them that at some future time he might lay on
one of the public journals—in a history written by an au- the table some further papers, and move an address. The
thor of great genius, that when Napoleon was engaged opinion of the house must be pronounced upon the pi•oposi-
with the Emperor Alexander in considering this great tion of the hon. member for Kidderminster. He hoped that
question he asked for a map, put his finger on Constanti- whatever might be the opinion of members with respect to
uople, and, after some moments of meditation, exclaimed, that proposition—whether they were for ruining the country
"Constantinople—no, it is the empire of the world." Iby Prolonged hostilities—(" Oh, oh")—or for saving it by
cannot remember upon what occasion it happened, but ,peace—each would stand by his own opinions, and face out
I recollect hearing the Duke of Wellington saying that an his own convictions. The question was one which should
addition •to the forces of Russia in the Baltic and the pos- have the fullest and freest discussion of which a question was
session of Constantinople, and consequently an entrance capable.
into the Mediterranean, would make her too strong for the Mr. LABOUCHERE supported the motion for the adjourn-
rest of the world. (Hear, hear.) I believe it is not only merit of the debate, believing after what had fallen from the
the recognised opinion of great men, but the general' per- noble lord with respect to the production of papers, that on
vading sense of this country, that we should not allow Thursday next the house would have the whole circumstances
Russia to effect, either be a simulated peace or by open of the case more fully before them, and would thus be better
war, the conquest of Constantinople. (Hear, hear.) You able to give to the country that clear ex.pressioneof their
may say that the terms we proposed adore not effectual for opinion which it was desirable should emanate from them.
that object; lent if you say so you will blame us, not for Mr. LOWE said that if the hon. member for Manchester
our ambition certainly, because we asked nothing of Rus- was in 'danger of being bullied, as he seemed to apprehend, he
sia—not for our harshness towards Russia, but for our (Mr. Lowe) feared that he was in some danger of being cir-
moderation, because we did not ask for stroneer terms and cumvented. The noble lord having expressed an opinion in
more powerful guarantees. There are no "doubt other favour of the first part of his proposition; he certainly felt so
guarantees besides this of the limitation of her fleet, and much encontaged thereby that he felt disposed to persevere in
it has been said that the practical mode of carrying out the pressing it upon the attention of the house. He was advised
basis of the third point must depend on the events of the by the noble lord to withdraw his amendment that he might
war, and could not be determined beforehand ; but we move an address in'favour of the vigorous prosecution of the
were compelled, when we agreed to negotiate at all, to war; in other words, that the noble lord might get rid of it.
specify the practical security which we meant to have., (Hear.) He could not consent to do so as the matter then
That negotiation is over, and we must consider, according stood. He believed that the proceedings of the conference at'
to the events of the war, what security is necessary for the Vienna were a fitting subject for. discussion in the house, and
protection of Turkey. (Cheers.) My right hon. friend unless he had an assurance from the Government, that in the
said the other (ley to my surprise, though I am glad he address they intended to move that question should be raised
has not repeated it after my denial, that I meant to make so that it might be debated, ho should ,press his amendment.
this a war of nationalities. I never uttered a word which (Question, question.) •
could bear any such interpretation. (Hear.) ,That I men- It was then agreed that the debate should be adjourned to
tioned the name of Poland in my description of the power Thursday next.
'of Russia is quite true, but my object in doing so was to JURISDICTION OF THE STANNARY COURT
show how necessary it was to obtain some security against AMENDMENT BILL.
thefarther aggression of that great empire; and if any info- This bill passed through committee.
reticle were to be drawn from my observations, it would be REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, &c. (SCOTLAND) BILL
that the case of Poland was now so utterly hopeless, that The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered, and
it would be madness in England and France to take any agreed to.
part ire promoting resistance in that country. (Hear.)
But be that as it may, never intending any war of na-
tionalities, and never having said anything of the kind, I
still do think it 'will be necessary to obtain some material
guarantee against the aggression of Russia. So far as these
four points provided a securityfor Europe, I think we should
make Clem our object. It, is au advantage that Russia
should be compelled not to renew again those treaties with
Turkey which bind Turkey in chains from which it is ,de-
sirable she should be freed. It is of importance that the
navigation of the Danube should be free—it is of import-
ance that the Sultan should give privileges to his subjects,
so that his Christian subjects may be attached to him and
may be ready to defend the Turkish empire a.i'ainst an
enemy. My right hon. friend has said that it was the care
of statesmen to provide for the security of Turkey. Now
it has been the view of English and French statesmen, and
it was certainly the view of the Austrian statesmen who
presided at the councils of the Emperor of Austria and
who have presided at them, that there is no reason why
Turkey should not be maintained, and why her independ-
ence and integrity should not continue to exist. That is
the language I heard from Prince Metternich and from
Count Baol. They both repudiated the doctrine of the
Emperor Nicholas that Turkey must fall, and that some
provision should be made for the succession. Austria, in
these negotiations, has been sincerely endeavouring to pro-
vide with us security against the aggressiVe designs of
Russia. Everything I saw at Vienna induced me to be-
lieve that, averse as Austria was to war, she was at the
same time most sincerely desirous with us to obtain the
objects, which we desired, (Cheers.) The position of
Austria, having, so many enemies in Germany, is very cri-
tical, and much as I wish the present war to be brought
to a speedy conclusion—much as I desire Austria to take
part with the Allies—l should sincerely lament anything
being done to weaken the power of Austria in the great
uropean system. Belonging to the centre of Europe, hav-
ing frequently taken part in groat wars with the view of
maintaining the balance o f power in Europe, I believe that
.her existence is of the greatest value to Europe,
and that
other powers, ourselves among the rest, are hampered by
the policy of Austria, who wishes to maintain peace and
assist in the balance f power in Europe. Oar object, there-
fore, in continuing this war will bele maintain the same
views. The means must vary according to the events of the
war, and I think it would be idle, and ridiculous, and pre •
sumptuous, to point out now what are the terms of peace
which the English Government, in conjunction with her ally,
would think it necesAarY to demand. -But this point, I think,
has been secured, even by these abortive negotiations—that
from this time forward Turk ey will be considered one of the
powers of; Europe, forming part of the system of the balance
of power ; that her internal-regulations will be allowed to her;
that her independence mid integrity will be recognised ; and
that thereby, partly from events of the war, and partly by
negotiations, we have really at the present moment already
attained very great and material advantages. That we have
not obtained those advantages which should make Turkey se-
cure I am forced to admit, and I do not think wo are likely
to make peace until we have obtained terms of peace that will
be safe to Turkey. Bo it remembered always that we are seek-
ing for no object of our own—that when this peace is con-
cluded wo shall not have obtained an acre of territory the
more, or any advantage whatever for ourselves. It is for Tur-
key and for the general system of Europe that we are endea-
vouring to obtaiu security. And now a few words with respect
to the particular state of this question. We seem tome, having
begun the debate on the motion of the right honegentlemau
opposite, becausb the Whitsuntide holidays were coming and
the confeiences were not closed, to have arrived at a period
when,theWhitsuntide holidays being over and the conferences
being closed, these motions, and amendments are not befitting
the present state of affairs.' I think it would be far more
regu-
lar if, when the Ministers ofthe Crown are able to bring down
the final close of the conferences2those proposals which my
right hon. friend is so anxious to see, together with the de-
clarations made by her Majesty's Plenipotentiary—l think we
should be proceeding in a far more regular course if, having
her AiNeety's =ululation on the table, we were to address

EXCISL ACTS,

Tho house went into committee upon these acts.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved resolu-
tions on which to found a bill, the principal provision of
which would be to enable distillers to distil from sugar and
molasses in bond. An additional duty of 2d. would be
charged upon spirits so distilled, in consequence of the mode
of levying the duty.
After a short and desultory discussion, the resolutions were
agreed to.