The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVEN ING, MAY 2.3 1855

Sir wl HeaLl . moved to strike it out in order to intro.! resolution that the house should adjourn for the recess tinue to hold the trust which has been committed into c.
duce into the bill certain portions of Hobhouse's Act. —and 'for au unusually long perieil without -saute their Len I , ,hey nail e. tee-n a s eee e,- , r r
Agreed to. - means being taken by which the public m y be re- nee i tee . - . e'v ie - e a e -I
Clauses up to 40 were agreed to after a short &cue- a imated -by which we teas obtsie, some in ae ceo, ' .. ei - at, , ola e .1 -..t , ..„ ee a t•e , ii .Li le
sion. - and explicit idea of the actual pesitien of the country , and which will hot be calculated to accomplish these oh-
On clause 40, providing for the inspection ol books by . with reeard to the question of peace or war thaw we at I jects f w the attainment of which we have entered upon
ratepayers, present posse-•. (Cheers.) I said 'that this was a eines- I the prevent contest. It is not from those who sit upon
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY suggested that owners of . then which principally affected the honour and also the these benches that the acceptance of ignominious terms
property, as well as ratepayers, should have the right of I reputation of the house. The house will perhaps recol- of peace shall proceed. I trust that no man in this I
inspection ; and, after a short discussion, the suggestion lect that in 1853 there were, he was informed, negotia- country, however much he may wish fee peat —and
of the hon. baronet was adopted, and the clause was tions of great moment then taking place, on the issue of Heaven knows every reasonable man must wish or an
ordered to stand part of the bill. which the question of war mainly depended. Under honourable Peace—l tru•t, I repeat, that no man in this •
Clauses up to 46 were agreed to, with a few verbal these circumstances, great and natural as was the curio- country who calls himself an Englishman, and who hopes •
amendments. sity of the country to know in what position it really wee not-to be regarded al a degraded outcast, would lend the ,‘
On clause 47 being proposed, the object of which was placed-in reference to a contingency so awful, and ready sanction of his name to terms of peace such as the right
to provide that all sewers except main sewers should be as were many members of this house, in the fu'filment lion. gentlemen has just indicated. (Cheers.) I
under the management of vestries and district boards, unquestionably of their duty, to obtain information from DIPLOMATIC ESTABLISHMENTS. * '
Sir B. HALL said, that this was one of the most im- Government during the session of 1853 on that important. err WISE then rose to move the following resolu-
•
portant clauses in the bill. It had been introduced question—the house will recollect that it was totally im-
lien :—" That it is the opinion of this house that the
after great consideration, and be should refrain from possible to obtain an opportunity to discuss that wiper-
saying one word on the subject until he had heard the taut question; because on all occasions those who were opinion of our diplomatic establishments, recom-
opinions of hon. members. anxious to obtain information and to invite the opinion mended in the . report of the select committee of
Viscount EBRINGTON believed that the clause, if of the house on these important circumstances, were 1850 he officialnohoonurale nierab
b salaries,er said should
thatbeuldthe first
carried into effect."
carried, would be productive of evil rather than good. informed that important negotiations were going The
(sear.) It would have the effect, in the first instance, on, and that remarks made i 'inthis house might have a which the committee in question had made was that
of an enormous increase of the staff of officers, and there- very injurious effect on the course of our diplomacy.
the missions at Paris and Constantinople should
'by considerably increase the rate of taxation. He (Hear.) The house will recollect in what the forbearance
h
be ma
desirable that we should de first-class minions. He
ae an ambassador at
deemed it to be ex-
thought the only course to be adopted, with any effect, of the House of Commons ended. There -was silence
treme
would be to place the direction of the drainage under during the whole of that session, notwithstanding the ly
the central board. anxiety-of the country, and the result was that we drifted Paris, inasmuch as it was necessary that our representa-
reign of that country—a sovereign who at the present
tive at that court should have interviews with the Sove-
Lord R. GROSVENOR considered that-if the house into war. (Hear.) The country found itself engaged in
rejected the proposition of the hon. baronet, and placed a vast and perilous war without the satisfaction" of hay- •
moment took a great interest in our affairs. But, how-
board,ecmvaelelnr
tt
sshoeirnrayet
tohenennt
eimoo
nti gi
ohontf
wbteiht
eht ooh
uourunsedeneltrhoma
sionsuyer
ue
pxt
ri
Paris,set,,e:ienng t eabxrepr aeinnnugdse
ti
course to be pursued, that of supporting the measure,. made a single effort to obtain the necessary information. the management of the sewers in the hands of a central ing a clear idea of the object for which we entered into
the worst results would follow, war, and a humiliated and depressed feeling prevailed
Sir W. CLAY was of opinion there was but one among the people, that their representatives had. never
ii
and leaving the management of these sewers under the (Hear.) I may say that years have really passed. We
tune in connection with that mission. Our embassy at
direction of the hon. baronet. find now that we are involved in a struggle of the largest
the court of Paris now cost the nation about 10,000/.
Mr. H. BARING complained of powers being given character. We find, at the same time, that we have
Per annum, and the expenses of a house were about
1,0001. a year in addition. - The hotel in which our am-
by this clause to the district boards that should be vested been engaged for a long time in negotiations for peace.
bassador resided in Paris had cost originally 30,0001.,
only in the metropolitan board, We find these negotiations carried on by the same cha-
and we had since spent upon it an amount which made
Mr. H. WILLYAMS supported the views of the noble meters, in the same city, and under the influence and in-
total of 87,000/. Our embassy at Constantinople was
lord (Lord Ebrington), who, he hoped, would divide the spiration of the same Court. (Hear.) The result of the
negotiations of 1853 covered the whole of- that session. also attended with an enormous amount of expenditure,
committee on the question.
4*-Mr. LABOUCHERE preferred the scheme proposed It muzzles the expression of opinion in this house, and The-embassy cost 10,000/. per annum, and our diplo-
by the President
.of the Board of Health to that sus- lowers its conduct and character. The result of that math, and consular establishments altogether about
gestecl by Lord Ebrington. It would have been more silence was not that we assisted her Majesty's Govern- 40,0001. h year, besides 12,000/, which had been ex-
satisfactory to him had the districts been fewer in merit in their efforts to secure peace, for war was the Fended last year for the purpose of erecting a new build-
consequence. The character of the house was lowered, ing at Censtantinople. The palace of the embassy at
number.
Sir B. HALL said the division of the metropolis into and the object of the Government was not obtained. Constantinople, however, entailed upon the country a
districts had been fully considered. He had to deal The consequence of the forbearance of the house was, more extraordinary amount of expenditure than wee in-
districts
an area divided into every conceivable form and that we drifted into what I must call a disastrous war. curred in connection with the hotel at Paris. In 1841 it
shape, and adapt a new legislation as far as Possible to Now it appears to-me that there is a great probability— had unfortunately been burned down, and the estimate
it. It was true that the whole of the drainage of the the negotiations still proceeding, the same circumstances for rebuilding it had been laid at 30;0001., bet the total
metropolis under one board had failed, and the question still being in existence, the same characters being em-
expenditure in connection with it amounted, at the pre
.was, what boards should be constituted as most ployed, th© same city being the scene of action—that if
•sent moment, to upwards of 86,6501. That sum bad
desirable, and the plan he suggested he had endeavoured the consequence of our forbearance was that we drifted been raised by an expenditure which had been incurred
to make as useful for the purpose it was intended as pos- into a disastrous war, the consequence of our prolonged year after year, and it was his opinion that it indicated
Bible. The population of the metropolis was two mil- forbearance may be that we shall drift into a peace—
a state of things which demanded revision, _and into
lions and a half ; and considering that population was perhaps an ignominious peace. (Hear, hear.) We which some inquiry should be made. • Now, with refer-
ence to the question of haring ministers or ambas-
ks sailors 0
fa at
ofogroe foreign r
eason courts, w
hhye
we mustsh 0 observenishould
hav
et that b
all: increasing, he did not think the number of boards pro- are in a few days to adjourn for a period of relaxation,
posed would be found too many under the sir- of unusual duration at this time of the year, and under
cumstances. Each board would represent an aye- circumstances full of danger to the country. We
rage of from 60,000 to 80,000 inhabitants. If were told last - Eigt, among the many aintii- seders in preference to ministers. Prussia was acknow-
he gave the district boards the power of forming drains, guous declarations that were made, that the con-
le aged to be universally successful in her diplomatic
he must also give them powers to carry them out, and ference at Vienna, though it was closed, had not abso- Proceedings, and she had not ambassadors, but first-class
these powers were not more arbitrary than those how lutely ceased to exist, and might be re-oponed at a me- ministers. An embassy was admittedly productive of
existing in the city of London, having studiously avoided ment's notice. It may happen that we may reassemble greater expense than was connected with a minister.
adding anything to them. From the various returns to hear that peace has been obtained upon terms that
There was about an embassy more of form and more of
made to him, he found there. were 1,500 miles of streets may not_ be satisfactory to the people of this country, etiquette than it was net essari that a minister should ob-
serve. Tfare was necessarily more dinners. (A laugh.)
in the metropolis and 934 miles of sewers ; consequently What %sill be their feeling that the forbearance—again
there were 566 miles of streets without sewers, and that rep-ated —of their representatives has led, in their opt- - Sir H. Seymour, whose name he should mention
-
under a system of centralisation. (Hear, hear.) That nion, to a disgraceful peace ?It is impossible to deny that with great respect, had stated in his evidence before the
distance comprised 306,000 houses, and consequently there is in this country a feeling of diss'atisfaction and comraittewthat he had no idea of a mar's being a good
diplomatist, who dhl not give good (inners. (Renewed
they might reasonably come to the conclusion there were distrust at the ambiguous conduct-sat the ambiguous, or
150,000 houses without sewers either in their front ither, I would say, at the uncertain language of the laughter). Now if that statement were correct, he (Mr•
or at their back, by which they might communicate Government with reference to these negotiations dor Wise) was afraid that the Russian ministers had given
with a drain, and that was such a startling fact peace. I believe that this feeling of dissatisfaction and better dinners than the representatves of England.
that it was his duty to press this measure. He found distrust exists also in this house. lam persuaded that The second resolution of the committee referred to having
there was one Street in the parish" of Marylebone, con- it is our duty, before we adjourn for the recees, to take a mission at Frankfort, and to the abolition of the rale-
taining from 60 to 100 first class houses, where there means that it shall. not be laid to the fault of the sions at Hanover,. Stuttgardt, and Dresden. Frankfort
were only two houses in it that communicated with the house if that uncertainty and ambiguity longer re- the first Emperor Napoleon had regarded as the window
sewer. So far as he had been able to ascertain, the main. (Hear, hear.) It is for these reasons -that I from which one might look out upon the whole of Gee-
ground landlords and middle men of the metropolis were have taken the first opportunity available to me to ask ninny, and in his (Mr. Wise's) opinion we should insure
-every purpose of diplomatic convenience in Gerraeny if
anxious that this meaenre should pass. the opinion otthe house on this subject—to ask them te
,
Viscount EBRINGTON was not anxious that the give their opinion on the conduct and language of the we were to have ministers at Frantrfort, Vienna, and
whole subject of drainage should be under one board, Government with respect to the great question of peace Berlin. He recollected having read that the number
but the proposition of the right hon. baronet left them no or war ; and as so much ambiguity-has prevailed, and as Of despatches which had been received at the Foreign
alternative in consequence of the arbitrary manner in there has been so many alarming instances of equivocal Office in the year 1829 had amounted to 29,000,
which he had made out his districts. They must either phrases and conduct—that the- house should take some and he was not aware that the cotntry derived any
give the management to one board or to the different step which would at least show that there is no uncer- considerable advantage from those voluminous com-
munications. The committee also advised that there
vestries and district boards the right hon. gentleman taints in their conduct—that there has'been no change
should be no mission - at Florence, and he did
had pointed out. - He preferred the adoption of the .in their opinion, and that they are prepared to continue
not think that so many small missions as we had at pre
first course as the least bad of two bad alternatives, to support her Majesty in this war till-she obtains for
(Hear.) He preferred the matter being considered by herself and her allies a secure and honourable peace. sent were necessary either in Italy or in Germany. The
next point upon which the committee had pronounced an
one set of hands to 36. (Cheers.) I thought it due to the housee after what oc-
opinion related to diplomatic salaries, and these they had
curred last night, and considering the short time we
Sir. H. WILLOUGHBY thought the 47th clause
bane, to give this public notice of my intention. I shall deemed it desirable should not exceed 5,0001. per annum.
Now, so far as Paris and Constantinople were concerned,
would not work well, and he must therefore give it a
in the course of the evening lay on the table the resolu-
was
question,ne t eba exactly yh preparedeni ain t
ain
etdo
tchoLewu re
shouldin that viewin eve
every
decided opposition.
• , tions which I hope the house will adopt, and which will
Lord SEYMOUR could not understand why these •
embody the views I have attempted to express.' I know he
ee
36 districts had been found necessary and selected for way endeavour to lessen our expenditure, although he
that to obtain an opportunity I mustappeal to the soda)-
the purpose. of carrying out the object of this clause. was far from thinking that the nembers of the junior
class of the diplomatic service were at present overpaid:
Hence and kind assistance of gentlemen who have a pre
Sir B. HALL-had taken the 36 districts because they vious right on Thursday. I understood from the noble ,
(Hear.) Our diplomatic expenditure since the year 1840
were parishes sole, and had not been incorporated lord that we are to go into a committee of supply on
under the Poor Law Act. In adopting that course he Thursday, not to vote public money but that hon. mem- had amounted to 3,000,000/e being an average of
thoughtevery one would admit that if he had net adopted leers who wish to call attention to 'im important questions 214,0001. per annum. Our diplomatic and consular
a sound, at least ho had come to a rational, conclusion. may have an opportunity of so doing. PI believe the hon. establishments together had since that time cost the
furals
also
thoseexpc
expenses
cssoos services voi coeoso oe fo
connection
withoo 01.
tyheoa yearly.
oh
aTs he eorfe
plate,were
The clause was then agreed to. member for Aylesbury has given notice of a motion, no country 4,G77,000/., which gave an average expenditure
On clause 48 being proposed, - - doubt of great interest, for that day. Of course I have
Sir B. HALL said that all the clauses, from the 47th no right to express a wish that the bon, member should
,
to the 70th, had been adopted from local existing acts ; give way to niO, nor can I presume to press him fora
was termed " secret diplomacy "he must which were very considerable. With reference to what
moment to do.so. All I can say is, that if the motion of
, and such being the case he thought that they would i'd- say that, in
actions in which its interests were deeply involved ; nor
quire but little discussion, the hon. member is brought forward and disposed of on his opinion, the country knew too little of those trams-
Thursday, I will still attempt, before the adjournment
Viscount EBRINGTON said that the only effectual
for the holidays, to ask the house to adopt a resolution
cpe,rehpaard
prepared
been e
been drawn up in 1844, and which had so long remained
could he help believing that if that document which had
course of drainage was to turn it into streams, and
-shhonlueldathathvee Foreign-office, such as that I have indicated, and which will tend to
thereby accomplish that which was the intention of na-
vindicate the honour of Parliament.
lure—namely, to make that a fructifies which was .at ipublic, we ithineradtoe
present a cause of disease. (Hear, hear.) " Mr. LAYARD—I 'cordially concur in all the senti- avert war, or, having entered upon it, to prosecute it
Sir J. SHELLEY thought the drainage of the metro- ments to which the right hon. gentleman who has-just with -success than was at present the case. (Hear.) The
moving polls would never be properly carried out unless it was sat down has given expression. It appears to me that hon, gentleman concluded by • g the. resolution,
carried beyond the limits of the metropolis, which he the question to which heproposes to draw attention Mr. EWART
the seconded the motion. His hon. friend
hoped ultimately would be the case, and thereby prevent of the house is of vital importance; and although -I con- had called their attention to the financial part of the
its interference with the water courses. question, and he was anxious to direct their attention to
skier the resolutions of which I have given notice of
Lord SEYMOUR observed there was no provision - the importance of establishing an educational test for
in the bill to prevent the sewerage being carried into some importance also, yet I shall undoubtedly give way candidates in -
our diplomatic service. He believed it
the Thames, and thought if the hon. baronet introduced to the right hon. gentleman. would be generally admitted that at the present day we
a clause preventing its being done after a certain Lord PALMERSTON—According to the statement were inferior in diplomatic skill to all the ' other great
date it would materially strengthen his bill.. With which has been made by h tle
we
the right on-gen man op- nations of the world, and that
had
greatly degene-
regard to the district, where there wasrated in that respect since the days.of Elizabeth and
posite there was a scene last night in this house. (A
only a small breadth of, land between the inter- ' - Cromwell. He proposed to remedy that evil by • in-
setting clause and the Thames, there was nothing to laugh.) Well, if it be true that a scene- was 'enacted stituting an examination for all persons anxious
prevent their carrying the sewerage into the Thames. ' here upon that occasion, the scene which has this even: to enter the diplomatic sera vice • ; and languages and
Sir J. SHELLEY said he thought it would not be ing been presented to us in my opinion surpasses it,and international law
should, of course, form the main sub-
right of them to prevent some of the existing sewerage Ilmust say it does great credit to the actors concerned. jects of such an examination,
from flowing into the Thames, and that the amount of sh
(wanew d e laughter.) The Government can, of course, Lord PALMERSTON said he readily admitted that
drainage that would do so after the passing of this
bill would be very inconsiderable. To prevent have no objection whatever to meet the motion which most important duties devolved on our diplomatic and
the sewerage from the houses between the sewer the right hon, gentleman has announced it to be his in- consular officers. But at the same time he Omuta ob-
and the Thames flowing into the Thames would be an tention to bring on on Thursday next. If the ri d t
cs ) serve that it would be impossible to 'reconcile with _the
injustice on the owners of property, by comoelling them hon. gentleman had been with - ` high contented the simple an-character of that service those censures on the arts
to reverse their levels to cause it to flow indr the sewer. nouncement of his intention to bring forward that motion, of diplomacy which the hon. gentleman who had intro-
Lord SEYMOUR said he thought the lion. baronet
I should have deemed it to be unnecessary to say any- duced the motion had quoted from the writers of a past
should undertake to introduce a clause that after a ter-
ain date none of the districts" in the centre of the City thing upon the subject. The right hon. gentleman has, era, but in which he took it for granted that the hon.
should carry sewers into the Thames, and that, where however, complained that the language of Government gentlemen himself could not entirely concur. He ad-
these districts now did so, it should be carried by means in the present-position of aff' • airs has been equivocal and mated that all the recommendations of the committee
of iron tubes under low-water level.- ambiguous. Now,that
the justice of complaint we of 1850 had not been carried into effect, but several
Sir B. HALL said that, with reference to the, latter, leave to deny. If
I be
right hon.; gentlemen means that of their su.ggestions -had been adopted. The salaries,
he would undertake arrangements should be made to we have not h
h • t oug t it to be consistent with '
our
duty be contended, could not he reduced below their ' '
carry out the noble lord's views, to declare the precise conditions of the communi-•
On the suggestion of Mr. WILKINSON, _ - cations that have passed, or are passing,-between b t her t in present standard—for, point of fact, those salaries
Sir B. HALL said he should have no objection to in- Majesty's Ministers and the p . g,- e ween were below, rather than above, the point which
Government with which we propriety required. (Hear.) Ministers were substi-
troduce a clause to provide that where ,district boards are in communication, then
I must say that I consider tuted forainbassadore in almost every Court except Paris
been were not inclined to do certain works, it should be in it would have
the poWer of the General Board, if it was thought
ne- our part if we had answered the demands which h • •
ceseary, to carry them on.
been made upon us, and if we had not employed thafchange would •
The clause was then agreed to. ,
,which it '
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, andobtained
necessary reserve
to adopt in matters of international communication be-
would acquire some information, but he would not be
leave to sit again on Friday next at 12 o'clock. , tween her•MajeSty's Ministers and the Government of "
THE DERBY.able to obtain that intimate knowledge of the politics
another country. (Hear •.) But the right hon. gentleman of those States which it was most important to acquire,
Lord BARRINGTON, seeing no business of any im- I stated ' .
on the paper for to-morrow, moved that the thisras hothat it was in consequence of the silence of He defended the principle on which diplomatic appoint-
portanceuse in 1853 that we have, as he says, drifted into
meats were made, and stated that while a rigid adherence
house at its rising should adjourn to Thursday..
war. Now, I beg leave to sly that the forbearance
Agreed to. . to the rule of seniority would bathe safest far, the Minister,
which this house showed in 1853 much increased the and though a departure from it would expose him to the
The house then adjourned to six o'clock. hon.
chances of preserving peace ; and that so far from
imputation of favouritism, still every Minister would feel
members having anything to reproach themselves with it for his own interest to appoint the men whom he
as to their silence having led to war, they have every might think the fittest for the different places. He added
reason to congratulate themselves that they did not, by
thatd at a meeting. of the-Privy Council yesterday, an or-
impeding- the - progress of negotiationo, preclude thoe
dFdrawasf passed instituting an examination of candi,
chances of that accommodation which,' up to that
tes fir different public appointments ; and he had
moment, we thought was within oar reach. Now,
no, doubt noble friend .at the Foreign-office would
,wh'at is the present state of affairs ? It, is made a be anxious. to extend. the same system to the 'diplomatic,
charge against the Government that they • have prose- service. In conclusion, he hoped the honourable gen-
cuted these negotiations, under auspices which must tlem n would not • 'h• '
press- is motion.
have led to their being unavailing in the attainment of Mar WILLIAMS complained of the high salaries
their object. Why, let me ask, would not it have been given .to the d• • mdloonmatists of this country, which were, as
a just cause of reproach to the Government if, when so , e eneral rule, ble. those allowed to the ministers of
-great a power in Europe as Austria was disposed to theg United States, without in any case securing a higher
afford us its assistance in our endeavours to bring about -degree - of talent, - • •
an accommodation with the nation with which we are at ee p .
ILLIMORE suggested that consuls in
war, we had arbitrarily refused that assistance—had re- Ir*
le *
H
foreign ports should not be allowed to engage in private
pelted the just advances of Austria, and had said, "we business'
shall have nothing to do with you ; wenchoose to con- '' Mr.
. WHITESIDE pressed upon the house the ideas
duct our negotiations without your aid." In my opinion so often urged by the-hop. member for Dumfries respect'
we should have had much to reproach ourselves with if •
ing the necessity of a special education for our diploma-
we had not availed ourselves of the good offices of Aus-
tle servant, and alluded to one or twoinstances in his
tria, arid endeavoured, through her co-operation and in- own experience where such an education would have
tawention, to obtain if possible from our enemy eatisfa c-been highly desirable.
tory and honourable terms of accommodation. So far, After a few words from 'Admiral PECIIELL,
therefore, from thinking that weare at all liable to blame
for having coatinn cl- negotiations. Mr. OTWA.Y complained that promotions in the diplo-
e under the auspices ' te
ma ic service had been confined exclusively to the sons
of Austria, I think we should have greatly
neglected our and relatives of peers of Parliament and of Cabinet
duty if we had declined the interventions of that ceuntry,
I can quite understand that we should
be open to blame
s • Ministers. Re cited the case of Mr. Letsom, who was
if it could be proved' that, relying an attache in Berlin in 1831, whence, in 1834, he was
upon the prospect removed to Munich, and again, in 1840, he was removed
which these negotiations held out of an honourable to Waehington, and then for the first time paid.. After.
peace, and placing implicit confidence upon the good a diplomatic service of 23 years, nice of which were un-
offices of Austria in effecting that result, we had ne . paid, that same gentleman, who had conducted himself
heeled to adopt those means by which the war was likely - to the satisfarition of those who employed him, was ap-
to be brought to a successful and an honourable fermi- pointed secretary to the emdaassy at Mexico. Let the
nation. That reproach, however, cannot be fairly laid house contract Mr. Leteom s case with that with the
to our charge. We have, it is true, availed' ourselves Hon. Mr. Howard, who was attached -to the. embassy
of the good offices of Austria for the purpose' of obtain- at Paris in 1838, and who, in
,1841, three years after-
ing from Russia terms of peace which we should - wards, was made first paid attache in Path;, with a pal
deem safe and honourable to this country ; but we . s .ry
equal to that of a secretary of legation. Again, in less
have not for one moment relaxed our efforts.in carry- than two years after that, the came Mr. Howard was
ing out those measures which, if no negotiations had
ifnnartelefiSecretary of Legation at the Hague-. He had there-
been in progress, we should have deemed it to he our
duty to make for the purpose of prosecuting the war A.
ainllelttitcw,on of the ,nriowLt agreeable posts in Europe.
tinop Napier had been made Se-
with vigour and energy. (Hear, hear.) While upon erLeter, ' Stala
y of Legation there over the head of Addison,
Mr,-
the on;hand, therefore, %Pc) have not thought it right to the dis etinuieliett Or iewtal scholar, who a h
recede from the consideration of overtures of aeco mo- 'r
a
.or many years. What did he find ‘vith re (i
feren resided
ceTto hi Ir,
dation, upon the other hand we have acted in regard Stanley ? In December, 1851 was ,he made second paid
to the prosecution of the war as if no negotiations attache at Constantinople, after having acted as •
were going on, and as if there was no chance that writer tai the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) ; and sixprdecis
we or our alliee'should through those negotiations obtain after;varde he was promoted te the office a"
of first paid
a settlement of the question at issue. The right hon. attache. Again, in January, 1854, the same Mr. Sta
gentleman says that the reason why he thinks it neces- the son of the Presidentof the Board of Trade, was made
sary to call for the opinion of the house upon those ne- Secretary of Legatimi at Athens. Let him mention one
gotiations before we separate for what he calls an un-- or two of the attaches. Mr. Petre, after being 9 years
usually long period" at Whitsuntide, although that Pe in the service, was still unpaid, and so was m R
r. Lytton;
riod embraces only a few days niore than the time gene- who enteral the service in 1849. Both these were gen-
rally allowed, is that he apprehends during that eirent- tlernen of'great ability. Then came Lord Hubert de
ful week the country way, owing to the misconduct of Burgh, who was only' appointed attache in 1852, and
the Government, find itself bound up by a disastiouea,nd, was yet made paid attache at Turin in 1855. He was
dishonourable peace. Now,. 1, can only-assure the, house really surprised that, with these- facts 'before him the
and the right lion, gentleman that so long as those who noble viscount could contend that men were selected for
are now charged with the conduct of affairs shall con- diplomatic appointments for their ituess, anti not be:

were—

At six o'clock the house resumed.
A conference was held with the Lords. On the re-
turn of the Commons' members,

Lord PALIIERSTON announced that the messengers
on-the part of the Lords had communicated-certain reso-
lutions which their lordships had adopted with regard to
messages of either house. On the motion of the noble
lord, the resolutions were laid on the table, and ordered
to be considered on Thursday next.
Mr. HEYWOOD gave rotice that on Tuesday, the
19th of June, he would move an humble address to her
Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased
to issue her Royal commission to substitute an open ex-
' amination, on the principle of competition, in place of
the present system of nominations, for admission into the
Royal Military Academy at Woolwich.
Mr. OTWAY gave notice of his intention to aek
whether it v.-as true that Wallachia and Moldavia Lad
been subjected to martial law, and whether the Govern-
' ment would lay on the table any communications which
had passed on the subject.
Major REED gave notice of his intention to with-
draw the amendment to the motion of the, hon. member
for Bristol. He also gave notice that if that motion
were rejected he would introduce a bill to permit the
ballot in cases in which a constituency petitioned for it.
Mr. VANCE wished to ask the Attorney-General for
Ireland respecting the progress of the Intramural Burials
(Ireland) Bill ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND said
some questions bad arisen as to the expense of opening
new cemeterie, but the bill had been read a second time
by the other house.
In answer to Colonel ICNos,
Mr. RICH said be, would lay on the table the reso•
lotions which he meant to move on the 12th of June re-
garding the system of purchasein the army.
.The pur-
port of it would be, that the system bad failedin its
ecob-
jt, was unjust in its working, was lin open violation
of the practice in other departments, and should not be
continued longer than was necessary for the gradual and
just satisfaction of the claims of iudividuals and the
state.

In an3vvcr to Mr. CowAN,
Mr. V. SMITH said tbat orders had been sent out to
the Governor-General to prspare a draft of a bill on the
subject of authorising grants of letters patent for India.

THE WAR.
DISRA.ELI—I take the liberty of presenting
myself for the purpose of making one or two observa-
tions on a question of importance. I confess it appears
to me that the present position of affairs is very critical,
and cannot be passed over without notice as far as the
reputation and honour of this, house is concerned. The
house, perhaps, will anticipate that I particularly allude
to what took place last night. (Hear, hear,) On that
occasion the language of the Government was, to my
mind so equivocal—their demeanour altogether so dis-
couraging, that I confess I myEelf shrink from the re-
sponsibility of Accoding under the circumstances to a

.uge of the ParliameOh,ry or ()OAPr infinenee of their-)

rco,ivtid, and stated his in-

tendon t vitth N the motion

Mr.H.BAILIE, however, oh jected to the withdrawal
of the motion, and the house then divided, when• there

For the motion.. ll2
Against ..
Majority —ss
The announcement was received with loud cheers.
THE BALLOT.

Mr. BERKELEY then rose to bring forward his an-
nual motion in favour of the ballet. He said he had
been told that this was a disadvantageous time for it,
while men's minds were suffering urder a series of victo-
rious disasters. But never was it more important to have
men of the people's choice in Parliament than at present.
(Hear, hear.) And this could not be under the present
system. To those who hated reform, the war had great
charms, as a seasonable relief. But with sincere reformers
the mismanagement of the war created a stronger argu-
ment in- favour of reform. (Hear.) The blunders, disas-
ters, and failures which had occurred in our various de-
partments had risen first from the Government having
become hereditary in a few great families. (1-lear, hear.)
There were changes of Ministries but not of systems.
One set of aristocrats went out " tristes," and another
" gaudentes" came in. (Laughter.) One set said when
-we come in then you shall see—what you shall see !
(Laughter.) Then, when they came in, what did we see ?
Jobbery, red tape, and routine. (Hear, and laughter.)
The people were fully alive to the atrocities of the sys-
tem. The cause was apparent. The Queen could only
select her advisers from a few great families, because
they monopolised place and power ; and thus not only
the Ministers of the Crown, but the leaders of our fleets
and armies were chosen, not for merit or ability, but
because they belonged to the " great families," who
were able to make or mar a ministry. (Hear, hear.)
Those great families had desperate fights for place,
but on all points connected with their monopoly of
power they were united as one man. (Laughter.) If
there were only places enough, Whigs and Tories
would become a " hanpy family" political cats
fraternising with political rats. (Great laughter.) Peke
1 ple were sick of this syetem—sick of sorry generals,
I•selected from the "'Red Book," and Ministers from
"Burke's Peerage." There had been an inquiry, which
bad concluded its labours, and was about to bring forth
a report. But what was to prevent that inquiry from
,going the way of all inquiries? It might result in a
stinging report, and possibly in some measure ; but if it
interfered with the pstronage of "the great families" it
would fail. Lately there was a splendid instance of
getting rid of a "popular clamour —how' the "good
Lord Ab6fleen" had cried for change, and every mem-
ber of his Government had his handkerchief to his
.eyes
weeping for the depravity of mankind. (Laughter.) -But
what did it all c 'me to? A "Corrupt Practices at Elee-
liens Bill," which would do nothing to prevent bribery.
The true remedy was the ballot. The evidence collected
by the Ballot Society from various boroughs iu the king-
dom, showed that since the passing of the Corrupt Prac
tices at Elections Bid bribery and intimidation existed
to as great ari extent as ever. He had, on the last on:
casion of bringing this subject before the house, ex-
posed the fallacy Of calling the elective franchise a
"trust." A brilliant example of the futility of what was
called "open voting" had occurred at the late election
for the county of Cavan. At that election stones were
not used, as ho the case of St. Stephen, but a leef bad
been taken from the martyrdom of Cranmer and Ridley.
A refractory voter had been roasted until his" ribs had
been completely "done"—(laughter)—hut still his
vote had not been tortured out of hini. Three hundred,
men, tenants of Sir J. Young, came to the rescue of the
rbyite candidate.; but would they have so opine had
Sir John Young at that moment been in office under an
Aberdeen Administration ? (A. laugh) The Cavan
election affor led a specimen of the unvarying influence
exercised by the landlord over the tenant--an influence
by which 300 men were moved about like so many au-
tomatons. Like every other great landlord, Sir John
Young was a political monarch over his tenantry.
" Vote for "Derby !" "Vote for Aberdeen I" says Sir
John Young—it was all the same to them :
" Whichever your Majesty "may please to name—
Long cut, or short} cut, 'tis all the same."
(A laugh.) He (Mr. Berkeley) repeated there was no
remedy for such a state of things but secret voting.
("Hear, bear," from the Radical party.) Voting in
secret could not be cowardly in the poor man and not
Co wardly in the rich. (Hear.) The question was mak-
ing steady progress, although some few individual mem-
bers had ratted from,it ; but it was remarkable that they
changed their opinions when they changed their consti-
tuencies. Lord Panmure had no better reasorragainst
the ballot than that under it the Emperor of the French
had been electel— (a laugh)—and Sir George Grey de-
clared it to be unnecessary, from the increasing virtue
of the upper clasSes. (A. laugh.) Where that increas-
ng political virtue was to be found it was difficult to

tervi to eradiate nr rnii-vr7qllv fl9rn7ni,ll ti» ev;l,, of wl

hod been put into he, iiam,s, e-inea adordcd a shied
proof of how things were stiil carried on." That letter
was written at the la, t general election by a person of
influence to an elector, and it ran in these terms :—" I
understand you are doubtful which way to vote, and I
_desire You to vote for Mr. --. If you do net do that
you leave my farm." (Radical cheers, and cries of
"Name" from the. Conservatives.) No, lie was not at
liberty to give the name, (Oh, oh, a,i,d renewed cries of
"Name.") But there 163 the original letter. It was
not a copy that he 'held-in his hand. (Cheers) The
terms which the noble lord (Sey moor) had used in speak-
ing of the rt tail dealers were, he thought, most offensive
—at least as offensive as the terms in which the hon.
member for Bristol was said to have spoken of the aris-.
tocracy. Forlis part, he did not believe that thd retail
dealers of this country were, as a class, the corrupt body
which the noble lord represented them to be. But if
they were, then all he could say was, that that consti-
tuted an additional reason for adopting the ballet, which
would very much remove from them the temptation of
yielding to corrupt influences. (Hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK thought the hon. gentleman ought
to have been in a position to give the name of the party
who had written the letter he had quoted before he ven-
tured to read it to the house-=-(cheers)—beeause, as the
matter at present stood, they were left in doubt whether
the writer was one of the " bigotted Tories" who had
been described by the hon, member for Bristol, or one
of the pure Liberals who -sat on the other side of the
house. (Cheers and laughter.) The noble lord
the member for Totnes had talked of the difficulty
of inducing voters to go to the poll, and the hon. mem-
ber for Beverley had ascribed that difficulty to a
system of intimidation which prevented them giving
their votes. He was satisfied that if the matter were in-
quired into it would be found that intimidation had not
the effect of preventing voters recording their votes.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN reminded the house, in considering
this question with reference to Ireland, that they must
not forget that in that country there was a compulsory
system of registration, and that the voter could no longer
escape being placed on the regietir.
Mr. BLAND said he could read a letter, and if neces.
sary name the writer, which would show,that landlords
in Ireland did coerce their tenants. The letter he held
in his hand was from a member of that house to his ten-
ant in Sligo, and it informed him that the writer always
regretted when he had cause to complainof his tenants,
but that the Roman Catholic priests had been so active
and successful in severing tenants from their landlords
that he could nit support those who did not support
bim, and that he did not wish longer to continue his con-
nection with the tenant. (" Name.") The name of the
writer was Mr. Ormsby Gore. He also held in his hand
a notice to quit which had been served on a tenant since
the last election for Cavan, though his rent, he was told,
had been paid for which the notice had been served.
He had also been told that 500 notices to quit had been
served in that county, signed by Lord Farnham and Mr.
Nesbitt.

Sir S. BIGNOLD said, allusion had been made to the
city which he represented, and that he merely wished to
state, with reference to the questions as to bribery and
intimidation, that the information
.which the hon. mem-
t;er for Bristol had relied on troM Norwich was without
the slightest foundation. Ho had poll,d 3720 votes.
His majority commanced from the first hour, and went
on increasing. He believed he owed. his return to the
simple fact that he had been an activacitizen of Norwich
for the last 40 years. (Hear.)

Mr. BURROWES said that allusion had been made
with regard to the roasting of a certain individual in the
county he had the honour to represent, but he emit(' not
discover the least foundation for the Story. He should
deeply regret if any such barb,rity had occurred in the
county he represented or in the county to which he be-
longed. The hon. member had asserted that if Lord
Aberdeen had been minister Sir J. Young would not
have directed his tenants to vote for Lord Derby. He
could state that Sir J. Young did not in any way interfere
with his tenants, but allowed them to vote as they thought
proper. A great majoMy of them had supported him.

Dr. MICHELL said that if the hon. member would
introduce words into his motion to make voting by ballot
applicable- to divisions in that house there would be no
occasion for him to divide sg iinst the motion of the hon.
member. If he did not carry this vote he would move,
soon after the Whitsuntide recess, for a committee to in-
quire into .the system by which patronage was distri-
buted by the Government in that house. The hon.
member concluded by moving that the votes of members
in that house be taken by way of the ballot.
There being no seconder, the motion fell to the ground.
Sir J. FITZGERALD supported the motion, and
instanced cases at his own election by-which voters were
kidnapped and intimidated to vote against their -con-
sciences.

Lord PALMERSTON said he should be sorry if his
hon. friend the member for Bristol were to imagine that
he had convinced him, by his very amusing though not
very argumentative speech, that the ballot was necessary.
In the few words he meant to address to-the house he
felt that be would expose himself to the reproach he had
often heard made by the advocate? of the ballot, that
those who oppose it did nothing but reproduce old ar-
guments. He, however, believed that those arguments

sai. Certainly it had not shown itself at the last elec-
tion ; on the Contrary, bribery and corruption seemed_
to have been as rife as ever. When he last addressed
the house,• the noble lord now at the head of the Govern-
ment, who had always voted against the ballot, accused
him of "exaggeration." (An ironical cheer from the
opposition.) How, with the election of 1852 before his
eyes, he could make that charge, he was at a loss to un-
derstand. The noble lord made, on that occasion, a
" pooh-poohing" speech, which it was rather difficult to
meet ; but when the noble lord was defeated for Hamp-
shire, and took refuge in the snug borough of Tiverton--
(a laugh)—did he not think theßritish farmer was under
some little intimidation ? On the 23d July, 1837, the
noble lord told the electors, that to deter electors from
giving their votes freely'was a regular Tory practice,
Whenever a Tory was opposed to a man of reformed
Liberal principles. (A laugh.), What was the change
which had come o'er the spirit of the noble lord's
dream since that period ? (Laughter.) The honourable
member then continued to quote in favour of the
ballot the expressed opinions of President Jackson, the
Right Hon., T. B. Macaulay, Mr. Charles Buller, Lord
Althorn, Mr. Ricardo, Sir E. L. Bulwer, William Cob-
bett, Lord Brougham, and the Right Hon. B. Disraeli,
amidst great laughter. He concluded his quotations
with the opinion of Lord Melbourne, and the opinion of
a weekly journal to the same effect. He (Mr. Berkeley) I
said he thought it necessary to enter his caveat against
being misquoted or misinterpreted •in respect of what he
hail =aid on the subject of the aristocratic element per-
vading the house and the army, and against being
answered by a play upon words. He had detracted'
neither from the valour nor from the ability of the upper
classes, He admitted that the Royal and aristocratic
soldiers at the battles of Alma, of Inkermare and i3ala-
((lava displayed great valour and gallantry—fully equal,
in fact, to the valour and gallantry of the middle and
lower classes engaged in those great actions. It would,
moreover, he an act of folly on his part to express a
doubt as to the ability of the aristocracy in the presence
of a Ruskell, of a Palmerston, and of a But he
thought it, in fact, susceptible of proof that the ariny
and the executive had been monopolisel by that class to •
the detriment_ of both. He dal not think that Lord
Foppington,'or the Hon. Tom Shuffieton, or Sir Harry
Easy, were calculated to make such good-officers in the
army as men of the middle classes, because their pur-
suits, as well as their pleasures, lay in London and at
Melton Mowbray ; whereas Brown, Jones, and Robin-
son, who Made the army their profession, were infinitely
more likely to . turn out better officers. It was the
custom in the country to boast of what had been done
by the aristocracy, and to place the middle classes in the)
back ground. But it should never be forgotten that an
army led by a prince, and officered by the flower of the
. English nobility, were not able to withstand an army led
on by a brewer, ,and officered by men of his own situation
in life. The army of Charles I. was • never a match for
the Ironsides of Cromwell, not because they were less
brave, but because they were not so professional. Ho
(Mr. B) would not lie,underetood to say that the ballot
was the panacea for every political evil, but he would
point out to the country that without a change in the
electoral systolic there would be no change i,n the adnii•
nistrative department of the executive government.
Ho asked for the ballot, therefore, because it was the
only key to unlock the fetters in which the elector now
lay bound, and to give him that weight hi the decision
of public affairs which was solemnly guaranteed to him
by the constitution of the country.
Mr. FEILDEN seconded the motion. He had long
been an advobate of the- billot from his experience of
travel in foreign countries, where peace and prosperity
prevailed at all political elections ; whereas, in this
country, the greatest disorder and violence prevailed at
similar elections. He hoped, therefore, that the vote of
that night would -have the effect of Putting an end to
this state of thines,
Lord SEYMOUR—The hon. member for Bristol had
said a great deal against the aristocracy on both sides of
the house, and he (Lord Seyndur) had listened to him
he confessed, with much surprise, for he certainly thought
the house of Berkeley had not been altogether unmiied
with aitistocratic proceedings. He remeint,ered the time
when they were called the Ameers of Scinde, and when
their aristocratic arrogancel in conducting elections in
their own county was such that iit was declared to be in-
tolerable. Yet the hon. gentleman got up to-night 'and
said that he knew neither one side of the aristocracy nor
the other ; and he called them pot and kettle, though
what he was, between the two, it was impossible for the
house to say. (A. laugh, and hear.) The main grounds
upon which he (Lord Seymour) .should give his vote
again=t the motion was, that publicity was the very es-
sence of the representative system. But the hon. gen-
tleman said there was one particular class of persons
that must be pretected, and oup particular action that
must be free and concealed, and that action happened to
be the production of a member of Parliament. He was
to be hatched in the dark. (Laughter.) Nobody was
to know how he was produced ; but out he came, some-
how or other, from the ballot-box. Something want in
from a number of people, and somehow or other it be-
came a member of Parliament. (Renewed laughter.)
Who were the persons whose conduct was to be exempt
from air exlinitiaton ? Why, the retail dealers of the
country. It the measure succeeded it would reduce all
voters to one general level of degradation, and they
would become the mere carriers of voting-tickets.
Mr. GORDON entreated the indulgence' of the house
whilst, as a new member, he stated why he should give
his vote in favour of the motion of the hon, member
fir Bristol. He was the more desirous not to give a
sileet vote on the occasion, beciuse lie. did not en-
tirely share in the sentiments of the lion. member
who proposed the motion, and still less shared in those
which were expressed by the _noble lord who had
,just spoken. He should vote for the, motion, not
so much because he thought the ballot was likely to
prove a panacea for all the evils which existed in our
electoral system, but rather in the hope that it might

were in themselves conclusive. The demonstraiion of a

proposition of Euclid which was also conclusive inglit be
equally complained of. He thought that publicity and the
responsibility of public opinion were the great principles
of our representative institutions. He held that the privi.
lege of voting for the election of a representative in Parlia-

ment was a trust confided by the constitutional law to a
certain portion of the community for the benefit of
the nation at large—that a man who was invested with
such a public trust ought to discharge that trust in
the face of the whole country. (Cheers.) Every man
should perform that trust openly, and all persons should
be enabled to inquire how such person had acted in the
discharge of his trust. It had been often proved that,
though there might be cases of bribery and intimidation
under our present system, ,secret voting would not be
any security against such improper practices. They had
been often told that they ought to follow the 'exampte
of the United - States, where the votes were taken by
ballot. It was true that in the United States the votts
Were given by the way of the ballot, but they did net
profess to be at all secret, notwithstanding. (I-Lar,
hear.) - Secrecy was not the object of the. electors
there. The ballot was but a short method of giving
their votes in the United States, as several elections
were sometimes going on at the same tiriie. it was,
therefore, not for secrecy, but fore convenience, the
ballot was adopted In the United 'States. So far
'from the votes being secret there, it was-well known
in the United States how every man voted. Tile
men there were as proud -of their votes as the men in
England were; and they scorned to give them in secrecy.
Why, the adoption of the ballot in this country would
be degrading the national character. Eagliahrnen woukl
not submit to it. No law which this house could paste
on the subject could compel the majority of the electors
to clothe in secrecy their votes, or to suppress the px-
pressien of their political opinions. What would happen
in the event pf this system being adopted by Parliament ?
The great bulk of the electors would defy their law, and
only a comparative few would be found to go' sneaking
to the poll for the purpose of screening themselves from
personal inconveniences: Such persons would become
objects of obloquy, and would be degraided in the eyes
of their fellow-citizens. These were his short reasons
why he thought that this proposal of the ballot`was one
which Parliament ought not to adopt. He thought it
would be altogether ineffectual for the purposes pro-
poSed ; and it so ineffectual, bethought that it would be
a great public calamity. The house appeared to be some-
what amused by the proposition of the how member for
Bodmin—that the votes of members in that house ought
to be taken. by the way of ballot. He (Lord Paliner-
sten), however, thought that there was -much more,
logic in that proposal than the- one submitted to theta
by the hon. member for Bristol. Was the ballot pro-
posed on grounds of individual protection or on grounds
of public utility ? Whether did they' want to screen
electers from inconvenience, or to enable persons to
act according to their wishes ? If they wished to screen
persons from inconvenience, why, he asked, were not the
members of that hi us 3 entitled to give theirerotes in se-
crecy ? And if they did intend it as a public measure for
the purpose of enabling Terecons more fully to perform a
public duty, he would ask whether the duty performed
by an elector could for one instant be put into competi-
tion with the duty performed by hon. members. Would
any -man tell him that the votes of members were not
constantly given in deference to the pressure of their
constituents ? Why, they well knew that it was so, and
therefore, if there were any sound argument that an
elector should'give his vote in secret, it would have ten-
fold force as applicable to the votes of the members of
that house. But he should be 'sorry to see any such in-
novation introduced.' The same principle upon which he
contended that an electorshould verform his duty in tbe
face of the public) had' also tenfold force in regard to
neenebers• of that house ; and therefore, in point of logic,
the•proposal of the hon. member for Bodmin eras much
stronger_ than that of the hon. member for Bristol. He
(Lord Palmerston) said it was a reductio ad absurdant, and
it only proved that according to the true principles of
the constitution, they ought not adopt a measure which
tended to Withdraw from public responsibility any par-
ticular act done by persons in the discharge of a duty en-
tru.;ltre.dpt‘i)
LthLemwbasieupcponorstteitduttih7.morioline.ers.)
Mr. H. BERKELEY briefly replied. •
The houle then divided—
For Mr. Berkeley's motion
Against it
Majority —s2
BILLS OF LADING BILL..
The order fir the second rea ling of this bill wag dis-
charged, and leave was given te introduce a new bill
founded upon the resolution of a committee of the house.
BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion fit the second reading of this bill,
Mr. VANCE suggested that it should be postponed.
After some observations from the SOLICITOR-GENERAL
for IRELAND and 'Mr. CAIRNS,
The second reading of the hill was postponed until
the sth of June.
The Absconding Debtors (Ireland) Bill was read a
third time.
The itailways'(lreland) Bill war; read a second time.
Tb-e Brighton fricorporation Bill passed through com-
mittee.

MR. DjSRA ELI'S MOTION.
Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that un Thurs3ny
next he should move that the orders of the day be' post-
poned until after the discussion of the motion of the
right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks.
The house aljoorned at a quarter before one.