The National Register.
London, England, 1819-12-06 00:00:00

THE NATIONAL REGISTER.

ready to contend they were measures of protection. There
was a loud and general call on the part of the loyal for
protec.ion. There was only one Bill which went to abridge
the fair rights of Englishmen, namely the search Arms Bill.
The Seditious Meetings Dill, se f.se from being AL Bill ad-
verse to the rights of the people to assemble for fair
discussion.w.is a Bill fur the protection of them, by preventing
tumultuous Nleetings, which were a nuigince to the a hole com-
munity. With respect to the licentiousness of the l'ress, rt
would be impossible to restrain and punish the publishers of
poisonous cheap pamphlets. without stranger laws than those
now i•I fiIICC., The measure respecting arms was a tem:'urary
and local measure similar to that passed some time. ago. He
was anxious that two of the Bills, respecting '!'salving and
Starch for Arms, should pass as quickly as possible.
It was then arranger) that tile Lord I..disnceller's Rill is to be
discussed on'l'hursdne.

The Search for Arms and Training Prohibition Bill on Mon-
day.—The House adjourned.
TUESDAY. NOV. SO.
BANK PAY ME NTS.

The r-at of LAITIIIIHDVI:I7(ob,er;t4. that a totnatr had
gone thrill Of the intention of Government to apply bollle ttua•
sure with s view to defer the return of the Bank U) cavil pay.
mews at the time limited by parliament. He wished, tb, retire,
to a.lt the Noble Earl whether liUdi was the intention of Go-
vernment. _ _

The Eurl of LIVERPOOL said, he could mane him, that
his Royal Highness the Prince Regent's Government had not
the lea►t intenUOU of interfering with the arrangement, made
by the Governor and Company of the Bunk, relutive to useturn
to c4t.sh payment.
STATE OF THE COUNTRY

The Marqui;M*l.ANSl/OWNEsaiii, lieftete in pursuance
of notice to move for the appointment of it Select Committee to
enquire into the Suite of the Country; and more particularly
into the cause of distress which prevails In the manufacturing
di trite . 'i'he question for the Lords to consider was. whether
the dangers and difficulties were of so plain a nature that Peut-
liament had no other remedy than to pass such Bills e.s the Go-
vernment might lay before them, and then return to their places
of residence ? No Iran ought to doubt that violence and stxlition
ought to be echtlued, but it was the duty of parliament to ex-
amine into the cause of violence and sedition. !Unless they cxa•
mined the cause, all they might do would be useless. The same
spirit would break out again—the same miseries would occur.—
He, fur one, believed that distress was the foundation.—(tlear.
hear.) That spirit, called ItAdicalism, had taken root, and
floutished in proportion to the distress which had prevailed. In
the manufae.uritse oistriets, where distress most existed, the spi-
rit of Raditalism had arisen to ita highest point. the warentan
hail no means of relieving hiinsell in peace, and upwards of nine
hundred thousand families were thrown into a 'tete of distress.
Could it be expected that nien in such a situation should not
listen to the harangues of demagogues, promising relief from
their burdens. In the nieletwholy business of Jlanehater, Mi.
Hay, the magistrate, stated in a leter, that only part of the mob
were the reforming party. This being the case, the unfortunate
were strongly intitled to feeling and humanity. If the middling
classes of society once found th..t Parliament was cowl and in-
different to public distress, not all the levies of soldiers they coukl
raise would save the Constitution. A rigid enquiry into pubiie
burdens and retrenchment might be made the means of affording
temporary relict. Timete were certain duties whirl' might be
taken off in several counties with great eifeet. In the article of
tea. If the duty was taken off; a very great relief might be
afforded, and perhaps by the extra consumption the amount of
revenue night not be diminiehtel. Much might be done in a
commercial point of view—exports might be allowed, which at
the present nine would afford relief.. Ile fad yet to learn bow
the Crown Officers had so long suffered the most detestable libels
to grow to t at state which threat-ned the entire overnrow of the
country. To slew how libels had been neglected. the Noble
Nfarquis cited one, published in a work. inn/led The all. glum.
lie read the words to the house. Alluding to the person of 101
Hoye( Highness the Prince Regent, it stet el, that it he persisted
in shewing indifference to the surferiegs of the people, they had
but tine course, nAmely4to act in ti At spirit whica drove away the
bigot James from the throne. It went on to recommend aeete-
sinstien. and destruction of property? It was also just to punish
the leaders before the populace. If the Manetester Mecumig was
illegal. why was not Mr. Hunt arreeted before the Aleetitig ?
eV by slid not the Magistrates take measures to prevent an illegal
meeting ? It was clear the people were led to suppose they were
safe btfore the interruptiou took place. All the untortenate oun-
cornitants connected with the...l:loam* of the Magistrates ought to
be the subject of Parliamentary enquiry, In the year 1717„
after a riot at Orford, at which no life was lose, on the matter be-
Mg mentioned to the House, the Lords went into a Committee to
investigate the subject. In the case of Captain Porteous. in the
riot at Edinburgh. the Reselution of the House to bring the
Authorities of Scotland to the liar, was unanimously agreed to.
Tne stone course ought to be adopted now, and, to give grace to
the laws. lie asked their Lordships to proceed to enquiry. The
Noble Marquis concluded a long and able speech by moving.
.* Theta Select Committee be appointed to enquire into the State
of the etiuntry, and more particularly into die State of Distre
connected with the manufacturing Districts, as well as the execu-
tion of the Laws respecting Public Meetings."
The Marquix N ELLESLEY adverted to the general confi-
dence with which the most respectable part of the nation looked
at this time to Parli onent..—Atilidst the great events which had
happened. the question would naturally arise, what is the duty
Parliament have to discharge? A direct project hattbeen emend
for its destruction, and they met not only to protect themselves.
but to maintain the Constitution. to give public seenrity. and pro-
tect property from violation. Tha Noble Marquis had said, if
the Meeting had not been interrupted, it would have gone off
peaceable, They would no doubt have quietly voted the destruc-
tion of the constitution. He beheld the scene with silent terror.
There was no time fur long examination of causes. He did not
think it was possible to form such a Committee 11.4 the Noble
Load proposed. It must be formed by all time talent amid integri-
ty of' the House. and would they hays time to make icsearclies,
end meet the existing danger? Enquiry ought not to take pre •
meaner of the hills so properly introduced. 'lnc Noble Alarquis
nitre( strenuously orpostel the motion.
Lead ERSE I NE derendetithe argument of his Noble Friend
who made the motion. He called upon the Holltle to (embitter
whether they had evidence enough before Mein to usury coer-
e measure;
_t if they had, they ought to pass the Bill introduced
by' the Noble Viscount. He (levered he never felt to much re-
gret es he did at the rejection of the Amendment moved by Isis
Noble Fenno! (Earl Grey) the first day of the Session. He would
have suffered death if Ministers hail not received the benefit of
it. Tne people would !levee:yen up their eleeongs, heeling that
Parliament was disposed to do romething fur mean The Noble
lend supported tic motion.
Lords if RENVILLE and LlvEnpool. spoke against the
motion for euquiry. and Louis GREY and DARNLEY in fa-
votir wf it... _ _

The Marquis of I.ANSDOWN F. replied. He war perfectly
ready to admit that lie ails favourably disposed I.r tne principle
of some of the measures about to be adopted, but to OiIICTS of
lie wits deCidedly averse. Whatever opinion might be ente• tamed
of them could not alfem tl.e propriety of the twiny lie preplaxl,
which Mould be houotrable to the !louse, sath..firemrt to me coun-
try, and ito ld rive to the magistrates an opportumy M vindi-
cating their conduct.
'rue then divided, when there appeared—
Ncm Cor.etnts present 110
flower 6B

178

DEC. d

Contents_prescnt is
rroxies 12-47
Majority for Alinistani l3l
Adjourned at One o'clock.
WEPNESTIAY, DEC. I.
The LORD CHANCELLOR ftttentleil the House soon after
four o'clock, when Lord Stamford and Warrington took the °Atli
and his scat.

Mr. Bur. Lock preterites'!, pursuant to (neer of the Ilettoe.
Return.; reLting to the Jimmie, noted fvr by the Eistl of
Lsot !tickle.

be House adjourned at five o'clock.
'flit v' Dec. r.
F.X.OFFIIIO INFORMATIONS.

... .
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved. that an arrount et"
an rs.oflitio inforniations, between the years 1813 and iSip,
fur blasphemous and seditious libels. be laid before the [lows
and secondly. That an account of all indictments for blaaphe.
mow and seditious libels between 1813 and tat% be laid before
the [low :v.—The motion was agreed to.
TitAIING PREVENTION BILL AND snancit
FOR ARMS BILL

Viscount SID:110iA'1l rilsei(;n;;;elie second reading of
the above Bills. He observed, that the House permitted them
to b: read a lint time on Twesilayi and in moving the second
reading this day, it was not his intention to occupy more than a
shim portion of their time, by restatement. The provisions of
both these Hills were contained in the 52t1 of the
by their Lordships when a conspiracy prevailtal in the Northern
parts of Cie kinklom to tl. suoy machinery. The provisions
however, of that Bill were more rigorous Coln the fills under
discussion. lie concluded by moving the Bolls be read a strand
time.

Lord EIISKINE objected to he provisions of both Bill,,
and sugge.tixl several amendments, with respect to the punish.
merit of transportation and the liability of persons to be prose.
toted for being present at any Alerting for training. iti;
intention was to propose atnendinents in the Committee. Ilia
Lordship expressed an °Onion. founded on experience, that
written evidonee laid before Parliament was not to be dependel
on. In 179., the evidence laid before the House was found

The Lord CHANCELLOR said, when he found it his
duty. as Attorney-General in 794, to prefer indictments
against !Lorne Tooke and others, for High 1 reason, he did not
do it on written evidence, but what passed rite wore before hint
in his official situation. Ile had been charged with want of
attention to the liberty of the subjec t. cstati'd,hed in the Bill of
Itigh•s. The citsege was .unfonnded. •I'he intenticts of th:r•
Bill was not to depnve men of arms sui•able to their condition.
It was to deprive them of arms dangerous to the Constitution.
He rcmenthered the speech of a great man now no more; he
al'udid to Mr. Burke. when he used the dag.:er in the Ifoum
of Commons. Tice Lord Chancellor aided, lie knew where die
dagger was at that moment. It was net in possession of any
person dangerous to Parliament. and it would always remind
him of the great man who by the very act convinced the House
or the anger of his country.—Did the Noble Lords require a
effort to convince them of the pre.ent State of the Cam-
try ?—A Noble and Learned Lord hat argued that men atten-
ding training, ought to have notice that they were cointnitting
an illegal art. lie would say, if men are i.u•nng anti training
for the purpose of giving to numerous ineqtiligN an appearance
of phyartal torte, it was an (seen act of High Treason. That .
was his decided opinion.
Lord 11OLLANn said, if he had (putted Burke time dagger
would not have been selected. It was not, in his humble judg-
ment, the best instance of his eloquence and talent. One am-
tcnce Burke uttered which he never could forget. It was this:—
" If the people are greatly disr.fficted, we must be a very bed
people, or we must have a very bad administration." The Bill
brought is by the S.'ole Viscount could not have his unquali-
fied approliauon, yet he did not say sonic such law as that with
nspect to training, ought not to be adopted, in order to even•.
tcract military proceedings which became an offence. The
Noble Lord did cot wean to press any great opposition to
either 11111.

The Marquis of lIIICKINGIIANI said. it was a bill to
prevent the people thing the arms they had a right to hold for
their own defence against the Constitution. The moment a man
used arms against the Constitution, l'arliament ought to restrain
him. They could not admit the evil and neglect the remedy.
He had heard it said it was the tkuy of the House and Govern-
ment to conciliate the people ; but his Noble Friends did not,
till very lately, tell what that conciliation was. They at last
stated it to be a Refortu in Parlitunerd. On that Reform the
Radicals themselves could not agree. They were at valiance
with the Noble Lord's.

111/LLANO, in explanation, intimated that be bad
never declartd Reform in Parliament to be conciliation. _ .

I di. Woke of SU t51.1.--•'• l save iu cosia.•qurnee of the
line of argument taken by a Nobk ‘lairquis e hes tames, that
the System of Reform, or Radical Reform, is supported by
as. I malty aith any Noble I,ld sipeakisid, of its, oisul.l ha
correct its Misquotation, vri h respect to the Rills under dis-
cussion thi, cv.• g. 1 take the opportunity of statist", my
general acquiess•ence in the Rill% proposed. 1 nosy be al-
lowed lit tiles:tone tisr.c to express it is ait h re-dre't I hear
th 1111 n out Cr. the opposite side of tic 1110 the on opinion
that ee a. eiii i i nical to the litters-eta of floe State. We feel
vte tut contending for the tranimilii a of the country us 111111 h•
as the Noble laud sloes. Thowei I dilfer from an, Noble
Lend, I will state my sentimenta a el h that reapers due to Mm.
and avoid isidaming the public mind, wh•ch caution should
be now dal. otaeived. Upon any subject enisiccted a ith
the Rill of It Nlagna 1 hatta, and other 'wile.% of the
Constitution, l cannot speak anht.ut feeling deep interest
and the Noble and 1,,e0,0vj Lord a ill allow sue to speak with
respect upon one point. Whim he vtates there nine pro-
ceeding, o Nxt respect to training t. loch he risioidered ti
amiable, lmay say Isl Id have test alai' if he had been
Atiorlicy-(i.lwrA of the C tvy, leer me if that ispio ion
had heeit originally promulgated it would have a ived us
Isom massy dohs-Mtn% 1 atate to the Noble Min quit, dint
not a Radical. 'sly npiuiuns are Its constitutional as
111 P, 11111 a hell I hllll proper courses have not hero piir.sed,
soma say, those ph sit lase o lei do out look to thi• quip-
cans of a dbeiise, way give plt)sii , but never cure toe de!.
order.
Ilse Kiirt of slit A 111a101111 read a letter, r erived
f (Aen.) Net', 111 A Ir. It ava, iu stubatioce :
•• Twenty factimis aho nog!" to hr hati4ed or
snrarcerut.ll, hits e chow moth sit %chief in 111rCat1111:. disnf.
f. titan and rebellion. The JuNtices of the I leave
basash.s,pid to leave their h moss. and take refiaie a tilt tlieie
Limber. this too ii.'*—The NAtioe End exist, •iied a hope
that n woe no::,ot be lea ht p :pa lig the H. Ali would
be unavailtitd, unl the incosusee propmse4 on its 11rIsi acre
carried solo execution. 1•1116 C.• 111111 %ere dsv 131'11 into
1111:114. or IterW a, has retch is Is hi. read to them
41 • Vk.."lres... Watch 1)a 1/1:."—" the itrlintille3n*"
-- I tee C:sp of Isihert," or • • iitio•r work ula ssimil
leselencs • 'ramie acre oot le-a thus 14.110., twa 1111
ape
,if li.r I etc and Weir, aliissea in o stale of open ress
Ile it ridlit i•s mos. • t m 46.11%4 is to the
flume,
toe me ...Ines .s. . ioves Hamm,
Both Bias acct. then Pail asi coed It e and colum,ttett
[Or to-mon ovs.—.l4.arned..

DEC. 6

FRIDAY. DEC. L..
TRAYCIAL BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said. he rose to move the
eecond reading of the Bill to prevent Delays in the Adn.i
nittratitm of Justice. by the opportunity persons had of tra-
vetsing their pleas in cases ot tx nU 1. informations and in-
dictments. The Bill wa- proposed on-the authority of tht
!ate Lord Chef Justice Ellenburough One of the provi-
sions was, that persons prosecuted by the Attorney General,
should not hasc the right to Imitn, le, or traverse their pleas.
The Noble and Learned lord said, he had collected all the
information he could on the subject, a;•d he proceeded to
state the practice which had long prevailed in the Court of
King's Bench This Bill did not call on a defendant to plead
silt 1,,.?, as he was bound to plead by the ancient law, but
it glve the Court powre to allow a reasonable time to en-
able hint to ittalerstand his indictment, or demur to it. If
the Lords permitted the Bill tog° to a Committee, it might
be amended as the House should think proper. A defend-
ant was to have the power of removing his indictment by
e.rta•+n • to the Kim's Bench, under circumstances of a fa.
-vourable nature, which did not then exist. He repeated,
Vat the Bill was not introduced trim, any view taken under
the present state of the times The present law on this
ject was not the ancient law of the land. In the case of the
seven Di-hops, the ancient law, with respect to im,.arlance,
was violated and it had since heen the op ed lawyers,
that the Bishops were harshly treated.. The Noble and
Learned Lord concluded by moving, that the Bill be read a
second time. . . . . .

Earl GROSVENOR opposed the Bill. on the ground that
it would add to the inconvenience Already felt by persons
called to answer upon ex nifiru information:l and indictments.
Justice required they should have the utmost indulgence of
the law to ortivioe tor their defence.

Lord ERSKINE opposed the principle of the Bill. It
could not be ',are tin. take away the right of traverse in cases
of seditious libels. In such cases a man otten required more
timellian the Attorney General allowed. The Bill did not
preserve the analogies of the law. There must be time to
collect evidence. He cited the ciwe o t Hatfield, the swniac.
It was a case which had rendered the law of this country
illustrious; it proved how far insanity could reach, and to
what extent the indulgence of the law in such a cam would
go. When they took away from the accused the power of
trwcrsing his indictment, they left him exposed to all the
grindiug hart:slips the Attorney General could inflict. Ac.
cording to the Bill as it stood, the Attorney General might
delay the trial of the accused, leaving Irm with all the
anxiety of a prosecution hanging. over his head for years
The Bill came before the House in had company. It came
'with other Bills calculated to alter and infringe the ancient-
law of the land-

The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he was not prepared to
defend this Bill on the close application of est adished law.
It was not, in his opinion, salutary to make laws on specu-
lative principles, but it was an elle, ation in the law, justified
by the peculiar situatEon of the country. He asked any man
Nt ho knew what was going on in the world, whether the
present licentiousness of the press, publishing works the
most dangerous that could be read, was not a violationsof
order and good manners ? Could the House. looking to the
effect of those publications, say society could he kept toge-
ther veilltout coins remedial measure. The remedy, indeed,
was diffieult. and Government had endeavoured to serve the
country by the measures recently brought into Parliament.
As the law now good, it was in the power of an individual
to impede and put off his trial for five or sit months, and
thereby defeat the ends of justice. The Noble Eari admitted
that it was-au innovation in the law, but it Was justified by
necessity.
LORD HOLLAND could not avoid making observations
on the speech of the Noble Lord who spoke last. His argu-
ment went to prove that the laws were subject to abuse, and
consequently liable to be changed at the of the Minister
'1 he law considered absurd in theory had been framed at
the best period of the Constitution by Lord bunters, one of
the greatest men known. in 1688 It was calculated to give a
-fair advantage to the subject. In this Hill .the Noble Lords
only considered the solitary instance of inconvenience aris-
ing from seditious and blasphemous libels, bust how did the
Noble Earl and the Noble and Learned Lord differ in their
atatements? That Noble and Learned Lord declared, that
the Bill was brought in, not from any view of the present
state of the country, but it was the effect of his intention long
existing to render the administration of justice more perfect.
The Noble Earl said, it was to put down blasphemous and
eeditious publications. Which a the Noble Lords was right ?
Informations ex qficoo had increased of late, and were increas-
ing to an alarming extent. Some had not-been followed tip
by trial. The inequality between the accused and the At-
torney-General, made it necessary the former should have
the right of traversing, yet that ancient right, given to the
subject at theßevolution, was to be torn away on pretence
of improper delay in proceeding tutrial.• . It was a delay the
subject had a right to claim by the law-of the land, and. he
could not be deprived of it without a violation of liberty de-
sired from the constitution.—TbeNoble-Lord, in support of
his argument, related an anecdote of-Lord Shaftesbury, (an.
cestorof the presentfEarin—Tha tNoble Peer waist) impressed
with the importance of allowing persons prosecuted for High
Treason the benefit of Counsel, that lie stood forward in the
House of Commons a resolute champion for the privilege.
11.hmeetistomed to public speaking, he became embarrassed
and unable to proceed u hut haviug collected his ideas, he
.exclaimed, addressing the Speaker—. Sir, if, in detailing-that
which. I confider right, I have been so embarrassed as to for-
get much, wilt you not conclude, that a man on his trial may
be embarrassed, and will you take away from an individual,
tried upon a charge which may effect his lite, the benefit of
.Counsel ?" The Noble Lord wished to depnve the poor man,
prosecuted by the Attorney General, of the benefit the law
bad allowed him. Loud Holland declared his intentiou to
.toppose the Bill in the Committee.
After some further discussion it was read a second time.