The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 10. 185.5

we have already done everything that can be'done in this
country ; while, in regard to the appointment of an Under-
Secretary, I am unable to give the noble earl any informa-
tion upon that point, though I may state that until a bill
❑ow in the House of Commons has passed both houses, it
would be impossible to derive any assistance from an
Under-Secretary in Parliament. I think the language of
the noble earl in reference to a supposed insult to the co-
lonies in the appointment of an absent Minister is calcu-
lated to excite the very feelings which he wishes to prevent.
iks to the colonies being indignant at the acceptance of the
Colonial-office by a mai who had been Prime Minister, one
of the most successful Colonial Ministers of England, and
known as one of the greatest statesmen of the age, I believe
it to be a mere delusion, and I feel confident that during
the short time that Lord John Russell will be absent on a
most important mission the interests of the colonies will
not suffer in the slightest degree from the manner in which
the duties of the office will be performed by my right hon.
friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
Their lordships adjourned at ten Minutes past seven
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before four o'clock.
The Chester and Holyhead. Railway Bill was read a
second time and ordered to be committed.

PETITIONS.
Mr. T. DIT NCOMBE presented a petition from the inha-
bitants of Islington praying for an alteration is the licens-
ing system.
Mr. J. BALL and several other hon. members presented
petitions, praying for the repeal of the newspaper stamp.
Mr HORSFALL presented three similar petitions—one
from the reporters of the Liverpool newspapers, another
from the letter-press printers, and the third from the in-
habitants of Liverpool generally.
Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Selby, in York-
shire, praying for the closing of public-houses on Sundays.
Mr. GLADSTONE presented a petition from some of
the Manchester newspapers in favour of the hill for the re-
peal of the newspaper stamp.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a similar petition from the
Manchester Examiner. . _

Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from Lord
Dundonald stating that he had discovered a secret by
which he could destroy the enemy, his fleet, and his for-
tresses, and praying that he might have an opportunity of
testing his invention.

ing that they came from civilians engaged in trade, and
living in inland localities, he did not think it worth
while to put the country to the expense of sanctioning the

formation of such rifles corps.
The subject then dropped, and the house went into com-
mittee of supply on the

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On the question that 1,387,5001. be voted for the expense
of works, buildings, and repairs,
Lord SEYMOUR complained that the vote was exces-
sively high, considering the large Ordnance expenditure
which must take place this year abroad. He asked for some
explanation relative to the establishment of barracks at
Aldershot. He wanted to know wkat was its object, and
whether it was to be of a temporary or permanent cha-
racter. Ho ehoull also like to know what number of men
the building would accommodate ?
Mr. MONSELL said the barracks would be partly tem-
porary and partly permanent. The temporary barracks
were required for the immediate accommodation of
troops and the militia, so as to obviate the necessity of
resorting to the demoralising system of billeting. (Hear,
' hear.) Besides, it would give the troops the advantage of
being drilled in large masses. It was believed that these
barracks, which would be built partly at Aldershot and
partly at the Curragh of Kildare, would accommodate
50,000 men. The permanent barracks to be erected at Alder-
shot would be sufficient to lodge 20,000 men. The tempo-
rary barracks at Aldershot would have 20,000 men allotted
to them, and those at the Curragh of Kildare 10,000.
Mr. ELLICE thought it an extraordinary proposition, at
a time like the present, to ask for a sum of 60,0001:for
barracks at Dover, on the ground of having so made these
fortifications, when they would only require to be protected

uuder the exceptional Circumstances of war. It was, too,
beyond his comprehension why, at this particular time,
the country should be asked to expend a large sum of mo-
ney for the defence of commercial harbours. With re-
spect to accommodating the embodied militia, he had not
yet heard of any very great inconvenience arising from the
difficulty of lodging them ; the inconvenience was no doubt
coming upon us ; that was, however, but of a temporary
char, loter, and ought to be met by temporary expedients,
because he hoped next year to be saved a vote of throe
millions for the embodiment of the militia. To require,
too, at this particular moment, when every energy was
required for carrying on operations abroad, a sum of
250,0001. for permanent barracks at Aldershott was to
him a matter of the greatest surprise. Did the Govern-
ment intend that after the war was brought to a close we
were to become a great military nation. Were we really
to set ourselves up in competition with the military na-
tions of the Continent in maintaining vast standing armies?
That might perhaps be the intention of the Government,
but this he knew that when the question came to be raised
by some worthy successor of his lamentsd friend Mr.
Hume, the house would not be induced to vote the money
required for such a purpose. He warned the Govern-
ment that when this war should be at an end, which he
trusted would be much sooner than appeared to be anti-
cipated by the Government, they would not be able to
have a vast standing army, and by the course which they
proposed to take in providing accommodation for it they
would only be throwing away the public money. (Hear.)
The people of this country believed their defensive power
to consist mainly in its maritime supremacy, and all that
the country required in time of peace was that which was
sufficient for our defence, and for the service of our colo-
nies. (Hear. )
Lord PALMERSTON said that if he could agree with
his hon. friend that the vote now proposed was a vote for
erecting a great establishment of a permanent nature,
which would not be required after the moment of emer-
gency had ceased, he should be ready to concur with hi:n
in opinion that the statement made to the house was of an
alarming character. (Hear.) The great mistake which he
thought the House of Commons, the public, and the Go-
vernment had committed ever since the close of the last
war, had been that they had acted by fits and starts, not
upon any settled and steady system of policy, but accord-
ing to the impulse of the moment and the circumstance of
the day. The great mistake after the termination of the
last war was, that the Government and the public
seetned to consider that halcyon days were beginning, and
that we should never again have occasion to defend our-
selves from aggression, or to vindicate our honour. The
con-oquence was, we had rushed to the demolition and dis-
posal of a great part of the barrack accommodation of the
country. One of the consequences of that policy was, that
even in times of peace, when he had but the ordinary
amount of military force, we had not the means of
lodging that reduced peace establishment in barracks.
(Hear, hear, hear.) They were, therefore, compelled
to billet the troops, to the great inconvenience of those
persons upon whom they were billeted. Of course it was
well known that innkeepers took thoir licenses subject
to this inconvenience, but* still the system entailed con-
siderable hardship upon them, especially in populous towns,
and it was also exceedingly detrimental to the discipline
and mot al feeling of the troops. (Hear.) From the incon-
veniences attending the billeting of large bodies of men in
particular towns had arisen the necessity of distributing
the troops in small detachments, and scattering them over
the country, often in places where they were not the least
wanted, answering uo purpose whatever, and materially
injuring the discipline of the regiments. Bat what had
been more strongly urged upon the Government was that,
however good might be the regimental organisation of the
army, still that, being scattered in small bodies, no oppor-
tunity was afforded for educating and preparing officers
for the discharge of those staff duties which belonged to
the aggregation of large bodies of troops. (Hear.) Every-
body admitted that even the exercise of the troops at Chob-
ham, where not snore than 5,000 or 6,000 men were assem-
bled, had been of great advantage to the staff and regi-
mental officers, as well as the men, and it was a fact that
those regiments which were at Chobham had shown them-
selves in the Crimea much more able to shift for themselves
than those which had not had the advantage of being in
the camp. (Hear, hear.) What the Government proposed
was, not vast establishments such as his right hon. friend
would lead the house to suppose, but very moderate estab-
lishments necessary for the service of the country. What
was proposed at Aldershott was to have accommodation
for about 7,000 infantry, with the proper proportion of
cavalry—such accommodation, in short, by which they
would be able to train that moderate number of men.
With respect to the militia, he could assure his right
honourable friend that the greatest inconvenience pos-
sible was experienced from not having proper lodging for
the regiments. The right hon. gentleman the member for
Buckinghamshire had taunted him lately with a deficiency
of foresight leen year, because he had not embodied the
militia. But as much had been done in that respect as the
barrack accommodation available would allow of, and the
Government were unwilling to call out the militia when
they would be obliged to put them into billets. (Hear.)
Then with respect to Aldershott and the Curragh of Kil-
dare, the only intention was that of providing those means
requisite for training on a scale usual in times of peace.
With respect to Dover, his right hon. friend asked why
they were going to erect barracks there, and to defend the
seaport towns? Were they to wait for a time of peace,
till there was no enemy, to make their defences ? or was
the proper moment for making our military defences when
we had a time of war ? With respect, to Dover, the ar-
rangements made were not dependent on the circumstances
of the day. For several years it had been a topic of re-
proach that our coasts were not in a proper state. Dover
had been considered an important place, and its fortifica-
tions had been put in repair, and improvements had been
made in the western heights, which were fortified, but the
fortifications would have been useless without a proper
place was provided for the men. Casemates were net
places in which troops could be permanently and willingly
placed, and the barracks on the western heights were not
more than were nectscary If It was determined to have de-
fensive works at all. With respect to Hull and Liverpool
and several mailer harbours, he (Lord Palmerston) was heed
last year with applications for some means of defence, even
against the attacks of privateers. When hon. gentle-
men
thought more of the sitation of these ports they
would come to be of opinion that the erection of some
small batteries only was an act of necessity with a view to
defend them ; and his astonishment was great when he
found what a small RUM would be required to defend these
ports from attack. From Liverpool and Hull he had re-
ceived urgent entreaties on the subject, and he hoped the
house would not be led away by the eloquence of his right
hon. friend, but that they would feel that these were not
works which were wanted for this particular year and not
afterwards, but that they were necessary to maintain our
military defences, and keep our army on a peace establish-
men`,, enabling it to perform the duties of an army. His
right hon. friend was on the committee now engaged in in-
quiring into circumstances arising from bad arrangements
made in times of peace, and he would find that th defici-
encies complained of were not in our regimental system, or
in the bravery of our troops, or in the military qualities of
our army, but deficiencies in those arrangements only which
were required for the organisation of comparatively large
bodies of troops—for arrangements belonging to a system
of war. His right hon. friend said that we bad not large
armies to deal with, such as existed on the continent; and
it was true that we had not armies like those of .`ranee, or
of Prussia, or of Austria. ; but, however that might be, our
army should be as good and as perfect as care and the best
arrangements possible could make it. It was the worst eco-
nomy, and the most improvident system, to have an army
and deprive it of the means of making itself efficient. We
should have the means of practising our army in all those
things which belong to and make the efficiency of a force,
and then, should we be obliged to go to war, we should have
It basis that would be complete, and that would enable us
to enter upon war on a well-organised system, and with
effective arrangements.
Sir J. TROLLOPS was ready to give his approbation to
the Government for their plan for the concentration of the
troops on home service, for he believed that nothing was so
injurious to the discipline of an army as to be scattered in
detachments. He wished, however, to know if it were de-
termined that sildershott barracks would be a permanent
one ? It had been suggested that the huts should be built
on a brick foundation, and if so, that they would last for
many years. These barracks would be of the greatest ad-
vantage to the service, not only in training superior offi-
cers, but in perfecting discipline and practising the army
in acting together. (Hear.) With respect to the commer-
cial ports of Hull and Liverpool, he had very lately been
down in Hull, and he thought that the old fort might be
disposed of, and that with the money which would be got
for its site, and some small expense besides, a sufficient des
fence might be provided.
Mr. MONSELL was happy to inform the right hon.
gentleman that his views relative to the old fort were being
carried out. The sum of 48,0001. was to be expended on
the fortifications. They would not dispose of the old
citadel till some other fortification was erected in its stead,
and for the ground of that old fort a sum sufficient to pay
for the erection of the defence in lieu of it would be oh-
tained.
Colonel KNOX had been down on the preceding day, and
had seen all the arrangements at Aldershott, and he con-
sidered them creditable to the country. But they Were
putting timbers on the ground, whereas it was said that, if
they were placed on bricks or concrete, they could be main-
tained for thirty years. The want of accommodation in
barracks had been felt for a long series of years. There
Was not in this metropolis a single barrack to which in a
time of popular excitement or riot we could lodge a bat-
tery of horse artillery, and for infantry we had net above
3,000 beds. In Brighton the barrack accommodation was
likewise deficient, and when the militia were called out,
they were obliged to be billeted, and the evils of the billet
were Very great. He hoped the Government Would turn
their attention to the matter of providing proper barrack
accommodation, and he thanked the noble lord for grap-
pling with the subject.
Colonel LINDSAY wished to know on what principle'
the barracks at Dover, Plymouth, Winchester, and Gos-
port were to be established—whether on the old system or
a new one. He gave the Ordnance credit for what they
bad done. The letters from the East proved that the
British soldiers were well deserving of care, and he did not
think that the Government or Parliament had dens) all
that was in their power. Several of the barracks were not
sufficiently commodious. It was necessary, too, for the
comfort of the soldiers that they should have a day-room.
Ths soldier had no place but the canteen. He had no place
to sit, or write, or talk, and the consequence was, tie f he
found ire was more comfortable out of Barra: es than in.
It must be a great point to enable the soldier to live in
barrack,. Another poi which required 4ttontion wee,

that a system still existed in some regiments of allowing
women to live with the men—women living in the barrack-
rooms. Lodging-money was allowed, but the amount was
not sufficient. He saw that the Ordnance were now in-
troducing gas in the barracks, after it had been pressed on
. .

them by him for years.
Sir S. PAXTON desired to know if the huts specified
required what could not be carried out in this country.
The hon. gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance stated that
there was no difficulty in procuring the timber specified ;
but he (Sir J. Paxton) should like to know if the huts
were being erected according to the specification, two-
thirds of the timber being Christiana deal?
Lord HOTHAM was quite sure that the committee—if
they were aware of the present state of the port of Hull—
would not be surprised at the anxiety expressed by the in-
habitants of that town with respect to its defenceless con-
dition. It should be recollected that Hull is the great

emporium of the trade of the North of Europe, and of late
years there had been a great deal of accommodation fur-
nished by the dock company of that port.
Mr. M. SMITH called attention to the vote for the
defence of the river Thames, and also to an item for 2,0001.
for the erection of buildings for tho accommodation of
military lunatics at Fort Pitt. It seemed contrary to com-
mon sense that a lunatic asylum for the whole army should
be placed in the middle of Fort Pitt, where unfortunate
invalids were now experiencing comfort after their return

from the Crimea.
Sir G. TYLER had urged upon the Government the
necessity of establishing defences along the coast, and (lid
so with the conviction that the Bristol Channel was not

sufficiently defended. He had called attention particu-
larly to the ports of Cardiff and Swansea, and ho hoped a
portion of the grant intended for the protection of harbours
along the coast would be applied to the defence of those
two ports to which he referred.
Mr; WILLIAMS called attention to the fact that the
vote far the building , ew barracks last year amounted to
871,0001., and the vote fee the repair of existing barracks
amounted to 283,000/., making a total of 1,156,0001. In the
present year there was a vote for 300,0001. for wooden huts,
which were to be used as barracks, making altogether a
sum of 1,456,0001. voted for barrack accommodation in the
past and present year. Assuming the army in the United
Kingdom to amount to 60,000, that would give a sum of
251. for the barrack accommodation of each man, which
was about one-half the sum that was paid for well-built
cottages for- the labouring classes in the agricultural and
manufacturing districts. It appeared to him to be mon-
strous that the soldier was not better accommo latest than
almost any other class when that enormous expenditure
took place. He thought the question should be referred to
a committee for the purpose of inquiring how this vast ex-
penditure had been incurred. It appeared that there was
a vote of upwards of half a million for fortifications ; but
out of the sum granted for barrack accommodation there
had been only a sum of 1,0001. applied to Liverpool, and
out of the sum required for fortifications only 12,0001. was
applied to Liverpool. He should like to know what had
-been the cost incurred for barracks in this country during
the last twenty or thirty years?
Mr. MONSELL observed that a great number of their
troops during the war had been lodged in barracks, but
those barracks, through a principle of false economy, were
disposed of in time of peace. A question had been asked
as to whether any description of amusement ha .I been
provided for the men, and it would be found that some of
the-barracks were provided with racket courts. An hon.
member had observed that the canteens were only let to
the Ist of September; the reason for that arrangement was
that the Government was prepared to considerthe question
of canteens, and were most.nnxious to introduce some im-
provements in the arrangement of them. In answer to
another question, he could state that the barracks would be
constructed on the newest principle. His attention had
been very much turned during the last year to the state of
the barracks in the metropolis. Ho quite agreed in what
was said by an hon. and gallant gentleman with regard to
the barrack in Portman-street ; but it was only kept from
year to year, and they would get rid of it as soon as pos-
sible. They, however, found it difficult to get a proper site
for barracks at a convenient distance from the :dome
Gun./ ds, and at this side of the river. With regard to the
question put to him respecting the erection of a military
asylum at Fort Pitt, he must refer the hon. gentleman who
asked for information to the Secretary-at-War.
Sir J. Y. BULLER said it was the fault of preceding
Governments that such a large expenditure was now neces-
sary for providing Lerrack accommodation. In the place
where his regiment was stationed there were only a few
small barracks for the reception of the men, and the great
outlay for barracks was now absolutely necessary. A large
sum was expended on the lines at Plymouth, audit must be
considered that that money was thrown away. When the
lines were-condemned ty the late Duke of Wellington, it
was to be regretted that such an expenditure had taken
place. He wished, in conclusion, to draw attention to the
absence of warm water, or warm baths, in the military
hospital at Devonport. He thought it would be of great
assistance to the sick and wounded arriving from the Crimea
if some accommodation of that sort could be provided.
Mr. COWAN was not aware whether any provision was
made in these estimates for erecting fortifications in Scot-
land. The east coast from Peterhead to Berwick-en-Tweed
was very unprotected, and since there was a large amount
of property exposed to danger in that district he hoped the
claims of Scotland would not be lost sight of. He wished
to ask the hon. Secretary to the Board of Ordnance if it
was true that a gentleman named Andrews had offered to
erect six or seven fortresses on the east coast of Scotland at
an expense of about 20,0001. for the whale. That gentle.
man, he understood, at the instance of the Board of Ord-
nance, had made a survey of the Island of Inchkeith with
a view to the erection of fortresses ; but that survey was
not deemed to be sufficient, and, under the direction of
the officers of the Ordnance, Mr. Andrews made a second
survey, which was upon a considerably more extensive
scale than the first. Mr. Andrews, with a patriotic spirit
that did him great credit, claimed no remuneration for
himself, but he wished to be reimbursed the expenses he'
had been put to, and it was to be hoped his claim in that
respect would be allowed.
Colonel NORTH confirmed the statement of the hen.
member for Devonshire with respect to the barracks at
Devonport. Twenty-five years ago he was quartered there,
and although the barracks were then in a disgraceful state
he believed nothing had been done to improve them, nor
had anything been done to improve the citadel of Ply-
mouth, which was in precisely the same state now that it
was twenty-five years ago.
Mr. DUNLOP urged upon the Government the necessity
of erecting fortifications for the protection of the shipping
of Greenock:
After a feet words from Colonel LINDSAY,
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he believed a false economy
had hitherto prevailed with regard to the erection of barracks
and the accommodation provided in them for the soldier.
Now, some few years ago a commission was appointed to
inquire into the state of the barracks in Prussia, France,
and other continental States ; but the report of that com-
mission, though made at the public expense, had never
been laid before Parliament. If it had, he believed it would
have demonstrated that the barrack accommodation pro-
vided for the soldieL in France, and two or three other con-
tinental States, was far superior to that afforded by the
British Government. (Hear.) There was some hon. gen-
tlemen holding office who entertained the notion that it
wa,sebetter to accustom the British soldier to hardships in
barracks than to.provide him with ordinary comforts. It
was thought, indeed, that such a training would better
enable him to rough it in foreign service, but he doubted
that very much, because the officers, when they were
obliged to rough it, were able to do so quite as well as the
privates. The fact was, the system which those gentle-
men advocated was not only injurious to the health of the
soldiers, but it also deterred men of a better class of so-
ciety from entering the army. Now the importance of this
question could hardly be overrated, because experience
had always proved that an army selected from a better
class of men was far more efficient than an army raised
from the lowest orders of the people. For instance,
honourable members, perhaps, would remember the con-
versation betweee Oliver Cromwell and some other man
of the time as to the difficulties he had in obtaining troops
capable of resisting the cavaliers at the commencement,
of the civil war; it was represented to him that his army
was then composed of mere tapsters and parsons of an
inferior class of society, who could not resist in the field
the sons of parents of the better class who enlisted under
the royal standard. (Hear.) Now, it appeared to him that
the only cause of the difficulty of obtaining the sons of far
mars and shopkeepers for the army was the bad barrack
accommodation provided for the soldier. (Hear.) The sol-
diers as well as the officers were quite prepared to encoun-
ter the difficulties of the field, to lie in tents or anything
else, or upon the ground, when necessity required it, but
they objected to being left in a state of discomfort while
' they were at home. (Hear.) Depend upon it, if Parliament
wished to raise the moral condition of the army, the bar-
rack accommodation must be improved, and that being so,
he, 'for one, could not understand the reluctance which
Goiernment invariably evinced to bringing these estimates
4:lmminently forward. It was absur ito think that in this
metropolis, the greatest that ever existed in the world, there
was only barrack accommodation, and that of the worst de-
scription, for about 3,000 men. (Hear.) Besides, it was
notorious that there were one or two barracks in the metro-
polis which were totally unfit for the maintenance •f the
health of the troops. Medical men who had directed their
attention to the subject had stated that it required a cer-
tain number of cubic feet of air for the preservation of
health the number he believed was 800 feet per man—and
yet there were several barracks in the metropolis which did
not contain half that quantity of air. -With regard to the
camp at Aldershott, being ignorant of its details, he was not
prepared to speak upon it ; but he certainly was rather sur-
prised at the speech of the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Coventry ; it led him to expect that we were about
to have a general election. (A laugh.) The right hon.
gentleman seemed to think that this was only a maritime
country ; but the disasters of thelast few months had shown
that if we were not essentially a military nation, at all events
we had not sufficient military means at our disposal.
Mr. W. BROWN called attention to some huts which
had recently been exhibited at Willis's Rooms. They could
be divided into four parts, the whole weighing 18cwt., and
each quarter 4i cwt. They were glazed, double-boarded,
and lined with india-rubber. They could be taken down
in four minutes, and put up in eleven. The cost was
221. 10s. each.
Colonel DUNNE deprecated the practice of building
small barracks all over the country. It was much better to
have an extensive barracks at a fixed spot, where the troops
could be concentrated and easily removed to any quarter
where their services might be required. If a large town,
such as Sheffield, required the assistance of troops fortheir
own protection, they ought to contribute to their support,
and provide the barracks themselves ; but those troops
which veere needed for the service of the whole country
should be brought together In one barracks. With regard
to what had fallen from the hon. member for Wigan as to
the canteen system, he could assure the committee that the
eystem both at home and abroad was perfectly disgusting.
It was the practiee of the Government to let the canteen
to the highest bidder, and the consequence was, the worst
wines and spirits were sold in them. (Hear.) He observed
in the estimates that there was an item for erecting stores
and a hospital in the Tower; no*, as he happened to know
that there was only one site vacant in the Tower, he
should be glad to be informed if either the stores or the
hospital was to be erected outside the Tower. (Hear.)
Mr.OTWAY observed that there was an item of 2,0001.
put clown for providing accommodation at Fort Pitt for the
lunatics of the army; bnt he W3uld suggest that such ac-
commodation could be more economically provided, while
greater comforts could be insured to the lunatics them-
selves, if Government had recourse to some of the large
lunatic establishments of the country. (Hear.)
Mr. A. PELLATT asked for some explanation of the
item 3,5601. for the erection of chapel schools at Sheerness.
He wanted to know whether a school or a chapel was re-
quired ; and if the latter, would there be any additional
expense in providing a chaplain ? There was also an item
of 6,0001. for new officers' barracks at Sheerness, What did
this mean ?
Mr. MONSELL replied that there had been some new
barracks built for the soldiers, and now there were new
ones required for the officers who commanded them. As
tathaitem for chapel schools, the building would be used
las a school on week days, and for the purpose of celebrat-
ing divine service on Sundays ; but there would be no ex-
tra charge for the services of a chaplain. That matter was