The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-11 00:00:00

• •
THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 11 1855

successful even when both drew their authority froru the
ssme source."
Then, eimikingpf the transfer of the array to the Crown,
he said :
" In that case, if the pride of
_officers was for a moment
flattered by a more immediate connection with the Xing,
that feeling would probably be altered when they disco-
vered that, from a separate service, which had a reputation
and pretension of its own, and was the sole object of aten-
tion to the military department of its Government, they
even sank into an inferior branch of another army,: and
scarcely known to the Commander-in-Chief."
(Hear, hear.) That would be the fate of the Indian nrm7
if it was transferred to the Crown, the civil government
being left with the East India Company. His hon. ftiend
seemed to assume that he was fighting the battle et' the
Indian army and Indian officers, and as a fonndati.. d for

-0 fill any of them. This matter bad been urged again and
again on the Government by the Indian authorities, anti
!rad been urged by hirus,lf as strenuously as he could
urge any suit, but unsuccessfully. During the time
lie had mentioned, there had been twenty \ appoint-
ments to chief command, four of them being appoint-
ments to the command of the whole Indian army. The
latter he gave up, for when there were 30,000 Queen's
troops in India it might be fair to give the general com-
mand to a Queen's officer. But the other 1f vacancies had
-Ilso been filled up by Queen's officers, despite the anxious
reuionstranoes of the Indian officers. There was an excuse
for this course daring a certain period. An illustrious
Duke then at the head of the army had a strong opinion
,n the subject, and he (Sir J. Hogg) was not ashamed to
say that he respected even the prejudices of such a man
tie therefore did not blame the Government for .I,'•

r yielding
the assumption, he read a single extract from a letter of a to the strong feeling of that great man on the point. He
distinguislaed author. He (Sir J. W. Hogg) denied that was bound to say that on one occasion the noble lord the
his hon. friend spoke the wishes of the Indian army. .He member for London did use his efforts to obtain a subor-
did not pretend to speak for the Indian army on the; sub- linate command for an Indian officer, but they were un-
jeet; but he had at least as good means as his hon. fi lend successful.. The illustrious duke had so strong an im-
of knowiag its sentiments, and he believed that nine- pression of the necessity of employing a Queen's officer
tenths or nineteen-twentieths of that army would so euu- that it was painful to press him to take a step in opposi-
ensly resist an amalgamation or transfer to the C: awn. tion to it. But since his death there had been three corn-
(Hear, hear.) His honourable friend referred to the opi mends vacant at Madras and Bombay, and in May lust he
nions of Lord Cornwallis on this subject, and gave a • hort ',Sir J. Hogg), when he heard the rumour of the appoint-
statement of what had passed at that time; but, as h I did meat of General Anson, whom ho admitted to be a distill-
not give the whole statement, he would supply the deli- ;Wished. officer and an honour to his country, came down
oieuey. It was truethat before Lord Cornwallis left Lai hilt to the house and asked the right hon. gentleman (Sir C.
entertained the idea of an amalgamation of the In iliac Wood) whether the Government intended to recommend
army with the Queen's, and that on his way hoe ehe an Indian officer for the command? Ho was met by a
matured a plan which, on his arrival, he submitn dto very curt, and in manner not very courteous, reply, being
the Government. But the moment the intention of ttord cut short by the answer that her Majesty's Govern-
Cornwallis to recommend such an amalgamation betztne meat had not taken the subject into consideration. (Hear,
known in India,
the greatest ferment was created in the hear.) That might be the case, but the rumour that Gen.
army, committees were formed and sat in London and hewn was to be the man turned out to be true, and he
different parts of the kingdom, and delegates wet c sent (Sir J. Hogg) made up his mind to adopt a different course
from the army in India- His honourable friend si ',toil in future; and, on the occasion of the next vacancy, lie
that. the East India Company collected evidence. 'low, gave notice of a resolution, rather a strong one, in their
he denied' that the East India Company had collecteit.evi- little Parliament in Lombard-street, with respect to the
deuce; what was done was the spontaneous act of the ofli- conduct pursued towards the Indian army. The result
sera themselves, alarmed at the change contemplated. As was that a letter was written by the Chairman of the
far as his recollection of the facts served him, the " dole- Company in accordance with the resolution, and to that a
gates" sent over here by the Indian army were requ•sted .erief ready reply was written by the same right hon. gen-
to change their names to agents, and they were received bleman, giving, on behalf of the Government, an assurance
by the Chairman of the Court oeDirectors and the Presi- '.hat in future the claims of the Indian officers should be
,ienhof the Board of Control as individual officers. ,He considered; and of the sincerity of that assurance he had
would now simply read there a portion of one report made .so doubt. (Hear.) The present motion was, in fact, the
by these delegates while • the matter was pending, and otnewal of the charter discussion. Hitherto the Indian
another when it was concluded ; and the house then
might Government had always possessed and exercised the privi-
draw their own inference as to the value of the are in nen lege of levying, organising, and disbanding troops. That
founded on the °Pinions of Lord Cornwallis. Herec'we i the was an essential privilege, function, and attribute of the
report of the'deieghtes—their own account of one oo' their ruling power. Without a Company's army they could
verbal communitations to the chairman : have no Company's government. A civil authority sap-
" That we felt it our inclination as well as our detei, tported by an army not their own might aspire to the name
e
treat the Court of Directors with every respect ; that ant ,f agents, and might be potent for mischief ;but they could
situation was unprecedented; as was the cease whiee had riot aspire to the name, dignity, or utility of a Government.
principally induced it. In all other cases, as public firer This, which was true in respect to every Government, was
vents, we could look with confidence towards them afore nore especially true with respect to India. If his hon. and
L
as the channel of redress • but in the present iustar•ce, earned friend thought it would conduce to the public in-
where%erest to review and reverse the settlement for the govern-
wan intended without deigning to consult us, we coneeivee we had every reason to believe a change of master'.
nent of India, so lately arrived at, let him say so. Let
that our being officers did not deprive us of the liberty en- din make the attempt openly and avow his object, but he
(Sir J. Hogg) prayed the house not to tamper with such a
hyed by every other description of British subjects, tient el%
the asserting, by every legal means, our natural righti a subject, and not to trifle with such topics as the Indian
men. We were not slaves, to be transferred at the will or e•my and empire. Let them not give their support to a
caprice of a master ! No Power had a right to convey its notion which would strip the existing Government of all
armies to another. That the officers in India had o )n- substantial power, and degrade it in the eyes of the coon-
tracted to serve the Company; if they were to be trri as- try, while it would continue and even increase every evil
ferred to the King, it must be with their own consent, inn eiti to be found in the existing system. (Hear, hear.)
on such terms as they chose to stipulate." Sir DE LACY EVANS said, as he understood the ob-
ject of his hon. and learned friend in proposing the ap-
That was the case which his hon. friend coolly and delEbe- ointment of a committee was to carry out the very object
rattily cited as a precedent for,, the change now sloe which he had himself more than once advocated, be had no
gestede arid represented as likely to be acceptable to at Nation but to supp ot the motion, without, however, bind-
Indian army. When it was all over, and these same di le- rig himself to any proceeding which such a committee
gates made their report to the various committees con ati- . fight think proper to adopt beyond that of giving power
toted in India—a nice state of things truly for an army to
, to the Government to employ the officers a the Indian
be forming committees, and sending delegates home to re-
irmy in Europe, as they were employed in India. He did
present them—they said :
" _
' i ;rot think the actual terms of the motion justified somcrof
It is with the sincerest gratification that we are' at the arguments which had been advanced by the hon. gen-
length able to congratulate yon on the final adjustoni tit ;Leman who had just sat down. The hon. gentleman sup-
and transmission of the new military arrangement. .. . . posed that a question was to be submitted to a select coin-
Our brother officers will, we trrst, need no assurances 11l on mittee as to the propriety of sending an expedition to the
us, that we have not been deficient in zeal and exertion to Persian Gulf—
obtain for them the solid advantagesof rank, respectability, Sir J. HOGG intimated that the hon. and learned mem-
and ultimate independence, at the price of as few petunia ry her had used that argument in his speech.
sacriticea as possible. They will recollect that at the c net; ine Sir DE L. EVANS was not quite sure that the hon. and
of the negotiation the subject was novel and the re.; alt learned gentleman had introduced such an argument j udi-
hazardous ; that a system had been formed and supeor I eel dourly—(a laugh)—bnt, after all, it was a mere argument.
bythe highest authority and the most overbearing infiaentee, ['here was one part of the speech of the hon. gentleman in
which threatened the subversion, root andlbranch, of tb, ,se which he perfectly concurred—namely, that portion of his
establishments to which, from long habit and from cone :c- •emarks which related to the injustice done to the eminent
tion of their peculiar adaptation to our situation we on tud distinguished officers of the Indian army. Bat while
firmly attached. We have happily succeeded in oletsit ing iduairing the good feeling of the hon. gentleman on that
an arrangement constituted in most parts on the principles point, he was rather surprised to find that his arguments
which our constituents have themselves recommend, 1. completely supported the motion now under discussion.
The reform has been temperate and cautious, and premeset The hon. gentleman objected to the introduction of such a
iu time to be effectual. The principal causes of compla jut .notion at this particular time. Now he (Sir de Lacy Evans)
have been removed, improvements have been intost mod, thought there could not be a more fitting time than when
and room left for further ameliorations when the system ',he Government were looking for support from all quarters:
shall have stood the test of experience." The hon. gentleman was anxious to preserve everything in
Now, that was the course which the Indian army adopted India in state quo. Hon. members representing the Court
in 1793 and 1794. What was the state of that army in ef Directors had opposed every change, declaring that each
1793 and '94 ? He meant as to the advantages they ran- one which had been proposed would subject the Indian em-
joyed. They resisted the transfer to the Crown at a period pire to ruin and perdition. Now, considerable alterations
when they did not enjoy any one of the advantages which had been made in the Government of India within a
had since been conceded to them. At the period ha 11 it very recent period. The honourable gentleman at that
mentioned there were upwards of 1,500 English officers in time predicted the most serious results, but he still
the Company's service. Wonld'not the house be astonish' eel remained a member of the distinguished body with
when ho told them that the highest rank t- which those which he had been so long connected, and had not pointed
officers could attain was that of colonel ; that there w ',re out any serious results from the steps then taken.
only 12 colonels, 23 lieutenant-colonels, and 23 majors • There was another part of the hon. gentleman's argument
that there was no retiring pension, no privilege of furlough which tended to support the present motion. The hon.
to Europe, none of the advantages which they now in- gentleman had intimated that, under the company, the
joyed ? But yet, in spite of the position in whith they Indian army had shown a considerable propensity to mu-
were then placed, they resisted, as he had shown, the pro- tiny. ' That surely was an argument in favour of some
posed amalgamation. (Hear.) Mr. Dundee, then Prod- change in the existing system. One of the causes of pi edis-
dent of the Board of Control, was not an advocate for the position to mutiny was the want of a supreme authority in
amalgamation. Heproposed not amalgamation, but a tras .8- thearmy. There had been mutinies amongst the officers as
far to the Crown. However, Mr. Dundaa and Lord Con a. well as amongst the men, but if they were recognised as
Rallis both saw what his hon. friend had not seen—namely, offiCers belonging to this vast empire they would not be so
the difficulties of the case. They both consulted—which t pia ready to throw off the bonds of authority. (Hear.) In sup-
hon. friend, he feared, had not done—the wishes of the In- porting this motion he did not advocate any serious altera-
dian army. They were practical men, and they abandoned tion in the organisation of the native regiments, because he
the scheme, which until this moment had never since been considered their organisation essentially good. But the Gu-
deliberately revived. His hon. friend had alluded to le rd vernment had formerly made use of the Indian army iu re-
guished officer, e„ glens beyond those to which they were limited by enlistment,
Grenville. Now, there was a very distinguished
took a part in these very discussions, and who, when he had and in the present state of public affairs he thought it would
attained a mature age, was again, in 1832, interroge ted on be very desirable for a select committee to be appointed to
the subject of amalgamation or transfer to the Cz ovre. investigate whether there should or should not be a change
This was what Colonel Sherwood said in reply : .nade with respect to the availableness of Indianofficers, and
" A period of nearly 37 years has now passed over since especially of officers connected with the European pan, of
the Bengal, and indeed the whole of the Indian Artiiler y the Indian force for European and general imperial pur•
were informed that Lord Cornwallis had proposed to the poses. He considered the proposition a perfectly reason-
home authorities to ' incorporate them with the Royal able one under present circumstances. (Hear.) If it should
Artillery, and to relieve them regularly from Woolwicte' be found that the authorities in India could give almost an
I have a lively, and I may say a painful, recollection of t lie assurance that no internal convulsion or foreign aggression
sensation produced by this promulgation. The major port was likely to take place for a considerable period, why
of the regiment was then at Dam-Dun, at their annual should the Government be deprived by any technical or
practice. A meeting was held upon the occasion, where legal difficulties from employing some portion of the army,
the proposition was looked upon with absolute horror, as especially the European part of the army, in the interme-
destructive of all those hopes, rights,
'hate territory, to co-operate in the present content? He
which we had entered the service and and prospects with
had remained wi tti did not think the employment of the sepoys in the Crimea
every disadvantage for years. The road to Woolwich %yes would be at all desirable, for there they would be quite out
pointed out as the road to ruin and despair. We thank of their place. But there were European troops, and be
God that this calamity was averted from us, and we far lid not know whether it would not be useful for these troops
Toady pray it may so continue." to be a little brushed up in the warfare in the Crimea, by
That was the opinion of Col. Sherwood, looking beck to which they would gain experience and confidence. He
the transactions of past times and answering the quastion knew there were impediments in the way of the employment
put to him deliberately in writing. But, upon general of the East Indio Company's troops in the present European
principles, could it answer that the civil authority in India contest. In order to induce Indian officers to enter upon that
should be vested in one body, and the military in another? serviceadditional rank must be given,and ifGovernment were
His hon. friend was conversant with Indian history. Ile to make it known that they would rank equally in Europe,
would ask him whether such an arrangement answered in and that their services would be available in Europe as well
the early periods of that history, and whether he reinern- as the services of the Queen's army, it would be a great ad-
hered the endless differences which existed betweea the vantage to the country. With respect to the statement of
Queen's and the Company's officers before the harmonious the hon. member as to the non-appointment of Indian
union now established ? At that period the Queen's °l:leers officers to high commands, he (Sir De Lacy Evans) con-
went out with a great idea of their own importance. They I sidered it a most scandalous thing that the officers in the
held their commissions from the Crown, and did not serve Indian army should be deprived of these high commands,
a company of traders ; and the result of such ideas w; s that and see officers who knew nothing of India appointed in
their stead. He was glad to hear that a promise had been
constant collisions occurred. But let the House loot. not
alone to the military, let them look at the peaceful pro- given that another system should be adopted. But he
fession to which his hon. friend belonged. Look to the should like to see something more definite, for another
Supreme Court of Calcutta—to their arrogance whe•i first Minister might say, "My predecessor made a mistake;."
constituted—to the injuries they did inflict and the ruin (Hear, hear.) As a Queen's officer, he would say this,
they would have inflicted upon India if their career had that if a selection had to be made, he should be ashamed to
not been stopped by an act of Parliament. (Hear.) Why, accept an appointment over the heads of mon who, iu the
it had been the aim and object of Parliament ever (duce to knowledge of the public, had properclaims to such appoint-
try, as far as lay in their power, to remove then- ano_ went. (Cheers.) The state of the Indian army was must
malies, and they had at last succeeded in rendering the anomalous. The Indian officers enjoyed a number of ap- '
authorities, civil and military, subservient to the civil pointments, but not honourable ones; and if an Indian i
Government. His honourable friend had spoken as if he officer distinguished himself, he only acquired a sort of
would give the Company's officers the advantage eujoyed social acquaintance. He should like very much to know
by the Queen's officers—namely, of coming home here whether any plan had been devised by which it wins in-
and of getting commands ; but he had not adverted tended practically to render these officers available for the
to the subject of reciprocity. (Hear, hear.) lt you Queen's service in England. It was most desirable to un-
gave the Indian officers commands here, the necessary eon• derstand whether it was intended to remove all the legal '
sequence was that the Queen's officers must be eligible to difficulties to the employment of these officers in European
all the civil and military staff appointments in India, from warfare. (Hear.) He thought the motion of his hou. and
which they were now entirely excluded. But it would learned friend a modest one, and that no dangerous couse-
be impossible to employ the Queen's officers for the !Jur quences were to be apprehended from its adoption. He con-
pose of filling such appointments. No person could fill sidered it extremely inconvenient and injurious to the
those appointments without passing some kind of exeini ea- public service of the country that able and distinguished
tion. At the present moment there were 5,000 offie-rs in officers should not be liable to be employed upon every ser-
the Indian army, 1,000 of whom were upon detached civil vice in which they might be found useful ; and believing
or military service. His hon. friend would allow that it most desirable that the services of suchMee should be
this at present formed some sort of vested interest, and available to the Government, he heartily supported the
were they to withdraw from the Indian army the whole • motion of his hon. and learned friend. (Cheers.)
of these advantages and let in the whole of the Queen's Mr. V. SMITH said the hon. and learned member
officers ? Could those officers be severed from their I ogi- who bad submitted this motion to the house seemed at the
inents, and had they the necessary knowledge of the tem- end of his speech to shrink from his own proposal. The
and the prejudices of the natives? It opinion of.the hon, and gallant gentleman whohad seconded ,
try, the language,
was quite impossible that the_Queen s officers, going out or the moti.n was most valuable, but he did not seem to have
India for a short time, could be so qualified, and this was looked at the result. Now it was to the resultthatthe house
quite inconsistent, moreover, with what he considered a was bound to look, and he thought be should be able to
that you should have a local show that a committee to inquire into this matter would
requisite for India—namely,
army. He did not think he was addressing a single inch- bo !I very improper tribunal, The real point before the
Indian army,house was this—" Is this a question for a committee of the
vidual who did not wish to do justtce to the
and who did not recognise the glorious deeds of that army. House of Commons ?" And, in considering that question,
(Hear.) But his hon. friend had read a most unfair cats- ho entreated the house not to be led away by any anxiety
logue of victories, and had told the house they were .ought as to the warfare in which the country was engaged. 'Ha
under Queen's officers. Now, why
were they so fought . was prepared to say that it was the duty of the house and
Because. the company's officers had been carefully exc Titled the Government to search in every direction for assistance,
from such commands. (Hear.) So, those officers were not whether in India or any other quarter,iu which it could be
only to have their pride wounded and their interests de- obtained. The late Government bad brought officers Nvho
stroyed, but were afterwards to see held up, in a kind of had distinguished themselves at the Cape of GocdHope
Juxtaposition injurious to them, the exploits which the immediately
Queen's officers had achieved. During the last 15 or 16 saw no reeton why the services of India officers might not
/ears there had been eight great occasions on which the be sought for the same purpose- (Hear, hoar.) He agreed
end hue array had taken the field • namely, in the earn- with the hon. and gallant general who had just sat down
rent ere Alf hen. t &dna!, Gwalior,' the Su tlej, the that Indian officers ought to be promoted to commands iu
rent
Ail Chinas"' of those occasions India, but he did no+, think that would be the necessary re-
army ; and only on one
was the oetbef
command army.
tem_ a given to an officer of the Indian salt of the inquiries of a committee. The hon, member for
army lute a right
" ot that an injustice of which the lielinn Honiton (Sir J. Hogg) had referred to some inquiry which
Now ifs the bon. gentleman ever asked such a
tary nnekaiott to complain ? And what was the soli- he had on one occason madeof the Presidentof the Board of
the Indian arras" when it was vouchsafed to employ officers of Control. ,
Pollock " and NoitPerchief command ? It was when Goner
of Affgleantsean were employed to retrieve the disseters liked. (Laugh • ter ) But he could not promise that an In-
als question again, he should receive as long an answer as he
reason why they viers enontlil not, then, be told that the diem officer should be preferred to a Queen's officer, if the
offieer3 were inferior to
beput into the situ-
Zntdo employed was, that Indian Que •ia's officer should be a man of greater merit. The rule
officers of the Queen's a could not compete with th • el tto be that the best man should.
c ought i
they were superior to the latter', he
my; fur without pretending to say ation, whether he gel mood to the Indian or the Queen's
assert that they were in every beet( not hesitate to troops. (Hear.)
respect on ho abided by. Whilst the
But it might be said that when there wa a par with In 'hawing Indian. officers to serve in
'hem. the Crimea, that was the rule to .
of
the w
.o
's and ComPany's troops that iniaital3nixed are of country was absorbed in the consideration war i
Queen
• giving the chief command to a Queen's officer
asked, what in I the N• t India an important part of the
as no
165 ,
e
that it was so, he then
For those 1(
r, a Arerni'ilhifro.o.r the Crimea, other portions of the empire ought not to ee
ey do witl„ neglected.
' (.w'
w Majority.. --46
divisional commands?
~ (liyisknal comb in,' empire? Now, so far as that country was concerned,,t .withthe
whetower were we at war ? Why, with Russia. nor he !
officers were required with a enowledge of thelocesett.n"
•e•• i
e arid population, which none but corn . -
~ last half century, repeated warnings had been given of ! Mr. .C. BRTJCE then moved that it be an instruction to
I"nge''' -- •pourers. How did they i• • I'''", . ;tu,,,, . . . Now . .
if ee were to airier 'the c
were likely to .
.. i lye., tee , . an aggression iu India. ,
lose . .
' • the rochiel schools, the other to the new schools
officersemit". of
mole in the eight great campaigee te - , her beat officers we mi,ht our prestige in leting to pa , .
committer to divide the bill into two bills, the ono re-
the divieional cortain .
which be hail referred ? Fourteen were given to Queen's
'officers. Was that t:in: t \ (clear.) That the essociation of religious with eecularinstruction,
Compauv 4 • , ut was a queetion that cu lit not to be left the first, .
a ' '1"'" and give a posi ti v. we
vi ta ti (in to Russian aggressioo• con tent plio en by the bill. The bill invelved two priociplet—
officers, and a elle to ry
'K
individuals, but t'; the ‘l' 01 sight. (Ilea - I
_ 1.) u considering the
• 4 •ti on which he proposed was to allow
Was it feir. not is reference
.. . . . 1
D I I fur "f°re the bo
those a 1
tvisiona co i nate s, war,
that .
,„nae: he assured the hon, and gallant matter
tle- The object of the inszu,
th ' .
el of bo principles.
public serviee, to keep]lave arrived in I ,i(ii. of the ' ' '''' had a heir approv,
now and the second, the extension of the means of education.
tleeeii's offi might perhaps 1.
cers, who
ointments, and who eet e those ties .army. Be
enlY instlsiforeobtaining these app
officers, who ha I
that
we
might aside
1-' with the Church, while leaving
Placed over the heads of the Company's I .
(11,
,‘,.., hue,oi admitted
~. that the eti beneficial in leas arduous thnes, and their existing conneceon
admiti i
carved their way to distinction by their awards e ) , Olt be vein' 'teem' in t.gaette of routine and discipline tine supporters of the bill to
additional means
Bat there were
it erow them asiee, and thle of Peace, but in war we must education in those districts where such ....
from which Indian °m-
1°-
me
cticallv excludes]. .o.aiti place in the Queen,. select the fittest men for every were roil three].
fficers wore praprovide ex-ended means of
au Indian officer elivoe mend at Celan te. seemed to hold very cheapen:, Ilia
Madres, or Bomb,.
,hetutil the chief coin
.11 beastoni licd rank which had been issued hon. and learned ft ieed The Earl of DALKEITH moved the adjournment of the
o memorandum in re, rI t 1b t
eto, to t e ate,
when he told th Y Verhaos the ho use wou i
t hi (Mr. Smith a)
em that jai I' history from the days of a. -.8
Plessey to, the glories of the lan
, ub they hed , Indian army did not consider quit
Tee gallant general (Sir De Lacy-
" the Commander-in-Chief The LORD ADVOCATE assented to the motion.
e which officers of the After a few words from Mr. J. Macgreg, r, Mr. Sutlej and Punja
Cum-
never had an Indian officer fitted for any of those V insignificant a boon. min .
g Bruce, Mr. Dunlop, and owan, • V 3.118
commands, if, indeed, such i ,ei this was only a question of social rank. 1 had said that adjourned to M d
an inference were to be or, e on ay next.
from the fact that no Indian officer had e been selectede e eprehended that the effect of the Meth
chief
Re (Mr. Smith) The Infants Merritt B•ll I It. •ge 1 was rim a secom
yet - •
. oreathurt Would be The Militia (No. 2) Bill was read a second tinne. •

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE said that, considering the late
hour of the night (half-past ten), and the short discussion
which had been had on the bill, and that many gentlemen
desired to havean opportunity of delivering their sentiments
on the measure, he would object to go on with the debate,
and he should, therefore, move that the Speaker do not
leave tho chair till some future day. (Peals of laughter.)
As that would be an inconvenient motion, he should move
that the debate be adjourned.
Lord PALAIERSTON hoped that the hon. gentleman
would not persevere. This was a question of great im-
portance, and at that hour the house generally began to
till. He could not consent to the motion for adjournment,
and he hoped the house would feel that it was trifling with
a great question to pretend that at that hour of the night
they were not capable of giving consideration to the bill.
If hon. members would condense their speeches, all who
wished to speak on this question would have ample time
to do so that night.
Mr. HADFIELD trusted that the house would adjourn
the debate. There were six other bills down for discussion
that night, so that the public time would not be lost by
the postponement of the debate on this bill.
After a few words from Mr. BLACKBURN, who con-
trasted the course taken by the Government with respect
to a bill concerning the whole people of Scotland with
that which they had pursued with respect to one merely
affecting the local management of the metropolis,
Mr. .DISRAELI appealed to the noble lord at the head
of the Government to consent to the adjournment of the
debate. It was perfectly clear that the discussion must be
a lengthened one, that it could not be concluded that even-
ing but must be adjourned, and nothing would therefore
be gained to the public service by commencing it at the
late hour of the evening at which they had then arrived.
Lord ELCHO said that he felt there was the greatest
desire en the part of the people of Scotland that this bill
would be proceeded with without delay. The principle of
the bill had been fully discussed on the second reading,
and he therefore regarded the tactics of the hon. gentle-
men opposite as directed to postpone and eventually defeat
a measure on which they had already sustained a defeat
in a fair stand-up fight. In deference to the real feeling
of the people of Scotland on this question, he hoped the
noble lord at the head of the Government would not con-
sent to the adjournment of the debate.
The Earl of MARCH could not allow the noble lord
opposite to assume to himself to represent the feelings of
the people of Scotland, which he believed were hostile to
the present measure. This bill was oneof vital importance
to the people of Scotland, and it was therefore the duty of
hon members from that part of the country to secure its
full and adequate discussion. As he believed this was im-
possible at that late hour, he should vote for the adjourn-
ment.
Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., expressed a hope that the noble
lord at the head of the Government would not consent to
the postponement of the debate. There was now a much
fuller attendance to discuss the bill than (from the dryness
of the subject to English members) there was likely to be
if the debate was brought forward at an earlier hour in the
evening. The opinion of the people of Scotland on this
question was sufficiently shown by the fact that there was
a majority of three to one of the Scotch members of the
house in favour of the bill of the noble and learnd lord.
Mr. FRANCIS SCOTT hoped that his hon. friend would
press his motion for adjournment, as there had been an
understanding that the debate on this bill should not come
on after half-past ten o'clock in the evening. Such under-
standings between the leaders of parties should be kept
even if they were made in the lobby.
The LORD-ADVOCATE denied that there had been
any such understanding. So far was that from being the
case, that he positively refused to agree to such an arrange

Mr. SCOTT said, that at all events it was his impression,
and that of those who were with him, that there was such
an understanding. He could not, however, rest his case on
such a trivial ground. It was trifling with the people of
Scotland to bring forward a debate of so much importance
at an hour of the evening when it was imj o Bible that it
could be fully and adequately discussed. So far from the
opinion of the people of Scotland being in favour of this
measure, it was clear from the petitions that it was
directly the reverse ; for while the petitions in favour of
the bill wore signed by only 1,400 persons, those against it
received the signatures of 20,000 persons. Believing that it
was impossible to finish the discussion that night, and that
the debate must, therefore, be adjourned, he should cer-
tainly oppose their going on any further at that time.
Mr. V. SCULLY observed that Irish members were ac-
cused of obstructing the progress of public business if they
objected to proceed with any Irish bill, however important,
at one o'clock in the morning. (A laugh). They were
never able to bring on their business at the hour at which
the house had then arrived, and if it was to be settled as a
rule that no Irish measure of importance should be brought
on after eleven in the evening, he believed that not even
one would be discussed in the course of the session.
Mr. STIRLING said that if injustice had often been
done to the people of Ireland, that was no reason why in-
justice should, on this occa,ion, be done to the people of
Scotland. He should certainly vote for the adjournment,
believing that it was imcoesiole for them than to give the
subject the attention which its importance deserved. The
petitions that had,been presented upon this bill showed
quite clearly that the opinion of the Scotch people was not
in its favour; for while there were only 34 Petitions, with
1,412 signatures, in its favour, there were 330, with 24,18 t
against it; and 3 with 16,873 signatures, praying for its
alteration and amendment. Under these circumstances, he
felt himself fully justified in protesting against the house
proce,;(ling with it at that hour in the evening.
The hetise then divided—
For the adjournment
Against

The Weights and Measure Bill was read a second time.
The E clesiastical Property (llelaud) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The house then went into committee on the Religious
Worship Bill, Ns hich passed through that stage.
On the motion for the second reading of the Sewers
House Drainage Bill.
Sir J. SHELLEY hoped the noble lord would not object
to postpone the bill until some day alter next Monday,
when it might be shown that the local boards, under thu
Nuisances Removal Bill, would have sufficient powers to do
all that was provided for under this bill. He moved that
the committee be postponed until Wednesday.
Lord EBRINGTON thought that this course was most
inexpedient. He thought that it was highly desirable that
a bill should be passed as soon as possible to render house
drainage as effectual as possible, in the face of cholera and
other epidemics which might break out at any time when
the summer set in. If the house was not disposed to agree
to this, he should throw the responsibility on them and the
Government. He moved that the committee be fixed for
this day.
Lord PALMERSTON thought that the bill might stand
for this day.
Sir J. SHELLEY withdrew his motion, and the com-
mittee was fixed for this day.
The Personal Estates Bill was read a second time.
GOVERNMENT OF VICTORIA.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable her Majesty to assent to a bill, as amended, of the
Legislature of Victoria, "to establish a constitution in
an for the colony of Victoria."
Mr. LO WE was very sorry to be obliged to trouble the
house at that late hour with two or three observations, but
the great importance of the question, and the novelty as
well as the very undesirable nature of the course about to
be adopted, must be his excuse for doing so. The noble
lord gave notice of a bill to enable her Majesty to assent to
an act of the Legislative Council of Victoria as that act had
been amended. This was a very extraordinary motion.
He would say nothing now of the bill, which could be dig-
cussed when it was before the house, but the form in wh ch
they were about to legislate was extremely objectionable,
and he was the more inclined to oppose it because he saw,
from a notice that had been given, what was intended to
be adopted in the Council of New South Wales. In 1850
an act was passed, giving to the Legislative Councils of the
Australian colonies power to frame new constitutions for
themselves. Under that statute the Legislative Council of
Victoria had passed an act, the preamble of which recited
that power had been given it to do so by the statute of
1850; but then the acts passed by the Legislative Council
overleapt and transcended the powers contained in the act
of 1850, presuming to repeal numerous Imperial statutes,
and also to invest the Council with a great many powers
which it did not now possess, and which nothing but an act
of Parliament could confer upon it, while it likewise in
many respects altered the relation of the Legislative Coun-
cil to the Imperial Legislature. This act the Legislative
Council of Victoria had no more authority to pass than
had any small knot of persons assembling together in a
room in the colony and calling themselves a public meeting.
The Legislative Council, however, took it upon itself to
pass this act, reciting the limited powers given to it by
Parliament; and then, being conscious that it had exceeded
those powers, it sent home, together with this bill, a short
act, which it suggested that Parliatuent4should pa-s, in
order to legalise what it had done. Now, it would be
most inconvenient, as well as not very creditable, for the
British ,Parliament to accede to such a request, while
it would also be most inexpedient as an example to
the other colonies. Certain limited powers having been
granted to the Legislative Conseil, it ought to have eon-
tined itself strictly within its authority ; and whatever
was wanted beyond those constitution powers should take
the form of a gift and concession from the Imperial Par-
liament to the colony, instead of the colony taking it in a
shape that was illegal and void, and then sending its act
ln me, accompanied by another short act, asking Parlia.-
'neat:to confirm and ratify its irregularity. If this mo-
tion had been for a bill to assent to the act of the Legisla-
tive Council of Victoria, the course pursued by the Go-
vernment would have been sufficiently objectionable—but
it was more objectionable still, because it was not merely
a bill to enable her Majesty to grant her consent, but
really a bill to enable the Legislative Council to pass that
which it had set up, though utterly void of law. The house
was therefore asked, in fact, to give validity to a law
which the Legislative Council had no authority to make,
and which her Majesty had no power to agree to. The
matter, however, did not stop there. The Legislative
Council of Victoria, having passed an act which it had no
power to pass, and then sent it home to be made valid,
the noble lord did not approve of certain portions of this
colonial act, and thought it not advisable to adopt them ;
and, therefore, he had amended the colonial act by strik-
ing oat those objectionable portions of it and inserting
others in their place ; and then he asked Parliament to
pass an act to enable her Majesty to assent, not to the bill
which the Colonial Legislature had adopted, but another
bill which the noble lord had devised. A bill when thus
altered was no longer the same measure, but must be re-
garded as an entirely new one, and therefore the bill now
proposed to be legalised could not be consideredas the bill
that was passed by the Legislative Council of Victoria.
As the noble lord had amended this bill, he presumed that
the House of Commons could also amend it. (Hear.) If
not, the simple effect would be to deprive the house of the
powerof amending an act of its own, because the act would
be as much the act of this house as if it had never
passed the Legislature of Victoria, that Legislature never
having bad power to pass it. They were, therefore, involv-
ing themselves in a mess of inextricable confusion, diffi-
culty, and anomaly, and they were placing the house in a
situation in which it ought not to be placed—namely, in the
situation of submitting to the dictation of a colonial as-
sembly as to what laws it should pass. He objected,
therefore, entirely to the course which the noble lord pro-
posed to pursue, but he would suggest two courses, either
of which would be free from any objection in principle.
The noble lord might stand upon the act of 1850, and say
to the Legislative Council of Victoria, " You have ex-
coeded your powers ; you have done that which you had
no right to do, and I therefore send back the act, in order
that you may amend it." But, as the case was said to be
one of emergency, the noble lord might also introduce a
bill vesting in the Governor-General of the Australion co-
lonies power to assent to the act so amended at once in the
name of her Majesty. That bill might also be coupled
with another making such concessions to the Colonial Le.
gislature as the Legislature had assumed to itself without
the authority of Parliament, and giving to it the land
fund, and anything else which the noble lord thought it
ought to have. The other course would be to do in effect
what they now asked to do in substance—namely, to sweep
away the machinery of enabling her Majesty to assent to a
bill which the Colonial Legislature had never passed, and
to legislate directly on the subject. (Hear, hear.) If the
noble lord thought the house ought to make a constitution
for the colony let them do it—(hear)—but let them have
the question brought fairly before them, so that they
might know what they were about. He protested against
the plan of passing an act to enable her Majesty to assent,
not to an act that had been passed by the Legislature of
Victoria, but to another and a different act, which, even
had it been passed by that Legislature, had been passed by
it ultra vires. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think that either of the
courses proposed by the hon. gentleman would be prefer-
able to that which the Government desired to adopt. The
hon. gentleman was mistaken in supposing that it was pro-
posed to insert in this act provisions which the Legislature
of Victoria had not sanctioned, but the hon. gentleman
was quite correct in stating that the enactments of the
Legislature of Victoria were ultra vires, that they interfered
with certain imperial acts, and that they touched upon
matters which were strictly within the province of her
Majesty and Parliament. He proposed, therefore, to take
generally the apt of the Legislature of Victoria as far as
concerned its own constitution, but to omit certain propo-
sals which would limit the power vested in the Crown of
disallowing the acts passed by the colonies. The bill,
therefore, although it would certainly not contain all that
the Legislature of Victoria had proposed, would not con-
tain anything to which it had not given its assent, and
thus, in his opinion, would be within the powers given by
Parliament to the Australian colonies to form constitutions
for themselves. It must be recollected that both of these
constitutions arrived in this country during the last re-
cess. If they had been sent back they could not have ar-
rived in time to give validity to these acts in the course of
this session. The hon. gentleman said they would get into
inextricable confusion, because a similar course would be
pursued with regard to othercolonies. Withregard toNew
South Wales, it was quite trne a similar course would be
adopted, but the constitution proposed by the Legislative
Council of New South Wales differed in some important
respects from that proposed for Victoria. In Victoria, for
instance, it was proposed that the Legislative Council
should be elected, in New South Wales, that the Legisla-
tive Council should be nominated by the Crown. With re-
gardto the Legislative Council, the Government thought it
right that the wishes of the colony should be consulted, but
when the act was passed with regard to Victoria and with re-
gard to New South Wales he did not apprehend there would
be any difficulty about the other colonies. With regard to
Van Diemen's Land, they had already a constitution which
was strictly within the powers given by the act of 18:0,
and that constitution having been laid before the two
Houses of Parliament, had already been confirmed and
approved by her Majesty in Council. With respect to
South Australia, the constitution was agreed to, but the
Council afterwards had several discussions and divisons,
the result of which was a desire to indulge the Legislative
Council in their wish to have it referred back to them; and,
accordingly, the matter was referred back, with discretiou
to the Governor to propose to the colony, whether elective
or nominative, a Council in such a form that he might be
able to consent without further reference to Parliament.
But lie thought it inconvenient to send this proposal to
Victoria and New South Wales to be re-discussed, when
it appeared their mind upon the subject was not changed.
Ile should be quite ready, in discussing these several bills,
to point out in what way he thought they ought to pass.
As the hon. gentleman said the schedules would be open
to discussion, and if hon. members should think parts of
those schedules ought to be omitted, it was in the power
of Parliament to alter them, though, of course, it was a
matter of discretion whether they would do SO. With re-
spect to general legislation on this subject, he would say,
a great desire was expressed in Australia that the manage-
ment of the waste lands, and the revenues arising from
thorn, should be at the d 'position of the Colonial Govern-
ment It was a matter upon which the Austi alien colo-
nies set great value, and it would be most convenient if a
bill for that purpose were carried into effect.
Mr. G. BUTT suggested that leave should be given to
bring in this bill now, but that further time should be
taken by the noble I.,rd for re-considering the question.
Atter a few words from Mr. ADDERLEY and Mr. J. FALL,
leave was given to bring in the bill.
On the motion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, leave
was given to bring in a bill to continue an act of 13 and 14
Victoria, to enable the judges of the courts of common
law at Westminster to alter the forms of pleading.
The tells were brought in and lea I a first time, and the
house adjourned at half-past one o'clock.

; to give to Indian officers by right the social rank which
h d hitherto only been given by courtesy, and to pre-
vaet their being considered as inferim ia point of
precedence to officers of the same standing in the Queen's
army, as he believed they had hitherto been consi-
dered. Besides this, he believed that its effect would be
that if an officer had become say a major-general in the
company's service, he might be sent to the Crimea or else-
where without requiring a new commission, and would
rank accordingto the date of his original commission, and
not according to the date of such appointment. At pre-
sent, when in India a company's and a Queen's regiment
were serving together, the officers commanding them
ranked according to the dates of their commissions, and
the effect of this memorandum would be to apply the same
rule in Europe. Therefore, to a certain degree, it did con-
fer military as well as social rank. Though he should
have objected to the proposal first made by his hon. and
learned friend, that an address should be voted to her Ma-
jesty praying her to appoint a commission upon this sub-
ject, he thought that an inquiry before such a commission
would have been preferable to that now proposed. The
best course which the hon. and learned member could
have taken would have been to have called the attention of
the house to thesubjectwithout asking eitherfor a commission
or a committee. Under all the circumstances he hoped the
hon. and learned member would see the expediency of not
pressing his motion to a division.
Mr. OTWAY thought the present was a most appropri-
ate time for the discussion of this subject, because we now
required assistance from all quarters. Indian officers were
just the men whom we should be disposed to select for ser-
vice in this war. It was a very important consideration,
that in consequence of the casualties which had occurred
iu the Crimea, there were really very few officers who had
served a sufficient length of time to enable them to supply
the vacancies with efficiency, and it was therefore neces-
sary that they should open the door to the entrance into
the army of the Indian officers. He found upon looking over
the regiments of the Guards that the junior captain in the
Grenadiers had only seen three years service, and in the
Fusilier s there were 18 officers who had only seen 13 years
service among them. He was aware that it had been
urged that they ought not to tamper with the native troops
of India, but he could not understand bow the Crown
would be more likely to tamper with the natives than the
East India Company were. In giving his vote for the
committee ho was mainly influenced, however, by one con-
sideration, and that was a desire, in the terms of the
motion, that the house should consider and inquire how the
army of India might be made available for the war in
Europe, and to inquire into the steps necessary to be taken
if it should be deemed expedient to constitute the army of
the East India Company a Royal army. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PHILLIMORE considered that many dangers might
result from transferring te this country so large a force as
that of the Indian army without the checks and restraints
with which the government of the army of this country
was surrounded.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR expressed considerable doubts
as to the propriety of bringing forward so important a
question as this at the present time. A very short time
had elapsed since great changes had been effected in the
Government of India, and the result of these changes Lad
not yet been sufficiently tested. He thought that the
question of the amalgamation of the two armies might well
be deferred until the transference of tha Indian empire to
the Crown and the abolition of the East India Board.
Mr. M GREGOR considered the question before the
house as one of grave importance, and one which ought
not to be lightly dealt with by the House of Commons.
He felt deeply that there never existed a House of Coin-
Mans which treated grave subjects with so much levity ;
but a time was coming when hon. members would be called
to a strict and severe account for their conduct. (Hear.)
That night's debate would, he warned the Government, 14e
the first of a series of debates on these questions, and they
were mistaken if they thought they could get rid of them
in the manner they seemed disposed to adopt.
Sir E. PERRY replied—He regretted the determination
the Government had come to on this question, which they
had not treated with the gravity due to it, while they had
evaded to meet the practical point of the motion altoge-
ther. The Government said that the committee was un-
necessary, for they had the power, by the exercise of the
Queen's prerogative, to employ the Indian army inEurope;
but that was not so facile as they seemed to imagine. As
to the practical point, how our forces in the Crimea could
be increased in the most effective manner, thst they had
avoided to discuss. Under these circumstances, he should
certainly press the motion to a division.
The house then divided,
For the motion
Against it
171
Majority ageinst the motion --109
MR. LAYARD'S MOTION.
Mr. LAY ARD said—Before proceeding with the orders
of Vets day, I wish to say a word or two in order that there
may be a clear understanding with regard to my motion.
I think the noble lord at the head of the Government mis-
understood my intentions when he stated that I was about
to force my motion on the ho'ise on Monday next. I had
certainly no such intention. When I requested the noble
lord to give me a night, he declined, and said I must find
one for myself, and I then intimated that I would bring
my motion forward on going into Committee of Supp y.
I understand that on Monday night there will be an impor-
tant motion in another place, and perhaps it would be for
the convenience of the house if my motion were postponed
till a later day. (Cheers.) I think, therefore, I had bet-
ter avail myself of the kind permission given me by the
noble lord the other night, and find a day for myself.
(Laughter and sheers.)

ARMY BEFORE SEBASTOPOL C0..11

hour.