The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-03 00:00:00

,

_

•
-

a right to expect. The feeling af which they had arrived
was this, that the house had imposed on thtm a most serious
aid aid responsible duty. They wet ruing to undertake thats.
duty, but only on terms which would enable them°
re dui.-
charge it satisfactorily. (Hear.) There were_ two
wqasi
sites which the committee had. to attain. The first
that the inquiry, delicate and difficult, should be conducted
with due care, circumspection, and prudence i
; and the
.
second requisite was, that it should be a searching investi-
gation. Now, they could not comply with those two con-
ditions unless this was made a secret inquiry, by prevent-
lug the insertion fromday to day of
papers,selectedtogether
with
th portionsth e o 0 ofro .
the evidence in the public
meats which would inovitablybem_
_ad_e on the publication
of .these T
selected portions. The noble lord the member for
Tetnest (Lord Seymour) said, if this was to be a secret
committee,they would be led into a line of examination
in which they would not otherwise indulge. Whatever
confidence the house might be disposed to feel in this com-
mittee, he thought it was clear the noble lord had not got
any very great confidence in them. Again, the noble lord
had told them that if this was a secret committee they
would still be unable to prevent the public becoming aware
ef the evidence, because nothing would be expunged ex-
cept on motion, and probably on division, and in one way
or another, it would be brought before the house. He be-
lieved the noble lord to be entirely mistaken in that. He
ventured, in the absence of any such decision, to say
that the reason advanced by the noble lord in opposi-
tion to this being a secret committee did not exist, and
that the committee would have an absolute discretion as to
what part of their evidence it would be desirable to lay
before the house, and whether there was any part of it
which, having due regard to individuals, they might think
it desirable not to make public. The committee must ine-
vitably touch on matters of a very delicate and difficult
nature. The feeling of the country and of the army had
demanded this inquiry ; the House of Commons had
granted it ; but it was nevertheless incumbent on the
gentlemen by whom it was conducted to take due care
that it should be conducted so as not to injure those inte-
rests which it was their duty to promote, and so as not to
inflict injustice on those individuals whose conduct must
canvassed by them. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM—On a former occasion the house was
so indulgent as to listen with patience to many reasons
which I thought it then proper to adduce against the pro-
gress ef this inquiry ; but, sir, the country having loudly
demanded an inquiry, and this house, the representative
of the public, having appointed a committee to prosecute
that inquiry, I bow to their decision, and it would ill be-
come me to repeat er to refer to arguments which, at the
right time, I offered in vain. I think rather that, occu-
pying again a private station, it becomes me, as taking
,part in this deliberative assembly, if difficulties have
arisen, and if there shouldbe any degree of danger in this
-inquiry, to offer my opinion freely as to the best mode of
avoiding these dangers and of conducting the inquiry upon
which this house has determined. I, therefore, shall ab-
stain from any further reference to the former debate, or
to any of the arguments which I then used. It does ap-
pear, certainly, somewhat extraordinary, that at the very
first meeting of this committee, composed only of 11 mem-
bers, of wham nine were present, the house should beealled
-upon to place implicit confidence in those members. So
great is the difference of opinion that already a division
has arisen among the members composing the committee.
Upon the very threshold of the inquiry, on the very day
the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) is voted
Into the chair, the committee find themselves involved in
such great difficulties that really, in spite of all that has
been said, it new becomes the duty of this house to rescue
the inquiry from the disgrace of falling into the hands of a
bole-and-cerner committee. New, it is not a bare report
-with which the house has been presented. Though terse,
it is very pointed, and contains the reasons which have
induced the majority of the committee to make their re-
commendation to the house. It says that, in the opinion
of the committee, the objects of the inquiry will be best
attained, justice to individuals will be best observed, and
the public interests will be most surely protected if the
committee be made a secret committee. Secrecy, in the
opinion of the majority of the committee, is the sure mode
of prosecuting the inquiry in the most safe manner, of best
protecting the public interests, and of most surely avoiding
injustice to individuals. Now, Sir, with all respect for the
opinion of the majority of that committee, I demur to all
their three reasons:M(omm.) I know that if this inquir y
is to be presecnted—and it is quite right that I should now
assume that it is to be prosecuted—the public interest will
hest-be promoted, the inquiry will best be conducted, and
injury and injustice to individuals will be most surely
prevented by the committee not seeking the shelter of
secrecy, but conducting the inquiry with publicity. (Hear,
hear.) I stated on a former occasion—and I may just refer
to it in passing, as I wish to guard mytelf against misap-
prehension—that I could not shut my eyes to the very con-
siderable danger which would attend even publicity ; but
I know no ground, except the discretion of the members of
the committee, why the inquiry should not be conducted
under the eye of the public, for where danger to the public
interests begins there the inquiry ought to terminate.
(Hear.) This is the limit which ought to be fixed to the
inquiry, and beyond which the public ought not to de-
mand it to be pushed. As to precedents, I will not touch
upon the ground taken by my right hon. friend the member
for Midhnrst (Mr. Walpole) further than to observe that
all the precedents upon which he relies, if I mistake not,
relate to great naval and military operations, which had
been brought to a close before an inquiry was instituted.
Certainly, in reference to these precedents, I do not re-
member that my right hon. friend cited one in which
secrecy was the principle adopted. The last inquiry was
an inquiry of the house, in a public manner, at the close
of the Walcheren expedition, into the conduct of that
expedition. There was certainly attending that com-
mittee of inquiry a committee of secrecy, but it, had no
reference to the conduct of the officers employed, being
merely a communication on the part of the Government
of certain information which it was not thought ex-
pedient to lay before the public. In fact, this in-
formation formed no integral part of the inquiry,
but was merely an appendage to it. And now I must
shortly remark to the house that it is important
they should observe how different has been the view taken
in the house of the composition of the committee. By
several majorities the naval element has been excluded.
(Hear.) Nothing could be more fair and honourable than
the statement of chairman of the committee as to the
mode adopted with reference to the inquiry. The matter
has been studiously and carefully balanced—balanced with
reference to party, and balanced by agreement. Last night,
by a small majority—l believe it is not irregular for me to
name an hon. member in reference to the appointment of
a committee of this kind—last night Sir J. Hamner was
chosen, and he will probably form the pivot on Which the
inquiry may bo said to turn. The hon. member is se-
lected as the makeweight in this committee, holding, as it
were, the balance of ingredients so compounded and so
neutralised, that reason, truth, and justice are almost sus-
pended. It is, therefore, of the very highest importance
that we should take care that the sacred cause of truth
and justice is not injured by an inquiry conducted by a
committee so composed. (Cheers.) Nothing can be more
true than what was stated by the right hon. gentleman
who has just sat down (Sir J. Pakington) as to the rule of
this house with respect to secret committees. If this bons°
adopts the report of the committee, and gives its fiat to
secrecy, its whole power and control over the future con-
duct of the inquiry are gone, and gone for ever. (Hear.)
There can be no appeal to this house on the part of any
member composing the committee—there can be no report
except by the concurrence of the majority of this commit-
tee of 11. What was said by the right hon. gentleman is
most true, with regard to these proceedings. I have great
faith in publicity, as the great check where the cause of
justice is at stake—(choors)—and why is any tribunal here
involving the conduct of public men, the character of
admirals, of generals, and of statesmen, to be conducted
on principles different to those which prevail in our
courts of law? (Great cheering.) In our courts of law
—life and property—and what are dearer than life and
property—namely, the character and position of men
in society—daily become the subject of investigation,
and it is the life and spirit and the very soul of justice that
publicity shall pervade and check all these proceedings.
The sacred cause ofjustice is promoted by it. Bystanders
constantly afford the menus of contradicting false evidence
or suggest the means wanting to complete evidence. This
tends to promote the cause of truth, and, if the same prin-
ple he adopted in a committee of this kind, I am Convinced
it will have the same effect. (Hear.) The object of the
committee is to satisfy the desire of the public that an in-
vestigation should take place. I believe that the desire on
the part of the public is an honest desire to have the truth
ascertained with a view of correctives being applied to
mal-administration, and I do not believe that there is any-
thing whatever vindictive in that desire. (Hear.) Perhaps
the house will pardon me if I say that we, the representa-
tives of the people, acting upon the desire of the public are
influenced by somewha: different motives. Party feelings
and party objects have mingled in our discussions in refer-
ence to this subject. The existence of those feelings, swaying
even the judgment of the most honest men, will interfere,
unless you take due precautions, with the justice of the in-
vestigation, and I know no check so strong as that the
name of every person who puts a question shall be known
to the public. (Hear.) His motives will be well understood,
his words will bo well weighed, and the salutary check of
public opinion will be brought to bear upon the inquiry. I
also conceive that the inquiry itself will be infinitely more
guarded when every witness knows that what he says be-
fore the committee is certain to be submitted to the ordeal
of publicity and the ordeal of public opinion. (Hear.) And
now what is the assertion made by the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Droitwich (Sir J.Packington) ? He has
reminded you, and he has reminded you rightly, that if you
make this a secret committee, your power over the inquiry
is gone, and it will depend entirely on the vote of a majority
of that committee, perhaps upon the vote of any one indivi-
dual member of it, whetherany questions thatmaybe though t
inconsistent with the secrecy required shall be expunged
and altogether omitted. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, I know
no reason, if such injustice should sway a majority of the
committee, why even extracts from the answers of a wit-
ness may not be given. (Hear, hear.) The power of this
benne in the matter will be gone, and it will depend upon
the committee whether they report the evidence at all, or
whether they merely report the result produced on the
nand(' of the majority of their body. Nay, even the pro-
easilinholialte,
Irof the committee need not be reported to the
leurtot need not know who voted in favour of the
alhelatever it may be. It may be the report of only
thory of 1:11er• and yet it will carry with it all the au-
that impliciZ'ono_rt of this house. (Hear.) I am well aware
reneace
Ifs to be placed on the honour of mem-
bers of this house;
, clothe house decrees that the commit-
tee is to be aecret
believe that intentionally any
member composing tia,nTot
which pass in the committee gat will betray the secrets
t still, even if they keep a
constant guard on all they say
their friends, it must be remembered that a 1
celc aundesa willmo be mined over whom they can have no each ntrol. the (Hoar.)
quiry,rdst.witstpauret
The witnesses will easily ascertain,
to them. what is the tendency of thein
the feelings of the persons who question them, and they,
not being placed immediately-Ain:your control, will Wei•
libly disclose the proceedings of
ocormittee. Now,
pw
1 111 r!be"e sate bli stici
my belief is, that between N aide 7
house-square a whispering-gry
("Hear, hear," and laughter)—which day by day will dis-
close to the public, in a manner that I think most excep
tionable--naanely, partially and imperfectly—(hear, hear)
--what takes place before your committee of secrecy. Th©
desire to maintain the character and the position of this
house is stronger than any othorfeeling which actuates me.
That mace—that " bauble"—(pointing to the mace upon
the clerk's table)—has encountered the sceptre of the
Stuarts, and it overcame that sceptre. In my time the
Reform Bill was carried by a majority of this house, de-
spite the opposition of ajtnajority of the House of Lords. I
entreat this house well to weigh the consequences of a con-
flict with the press of this conntly. (Some cries of "Oh,
oh," from the Opposition benches, met by loud cheers.) If
the house embarks in that conflict—(" Oh, oh," and in-
terruption)—l have before said that, with the permission
of the house, I would express my opinion as a private
gentleman in a deliberative assembly, amid great public
digioulties, and that I would warn the house of what oc-

Mr. H. HERBERT said that the ben. member who had
last addressed the house had exemplified in the strongest
manner, by his own conduct, the necessity of having this
inquiry an open one. If he recollected rightly, there ap-
peared a short time since in the public papers an accusa-
tion by that gentleman the most galling and offensive
which could be made by any one man against a gallant ad..
reiral employed by this country. He believed it was an
accusation of cowardice upon a gallant admiral in the ser-
vice of the eountry, and that accusation was made upon
the ground of the hon. member having seen some letter
which he believed had never yet been made public, upon
which the hen. member put that construction, which ho
considered himself justified in making. Thanks to the
publicity given to that letter by the press, the statement
of the hon. member went abroad and met the eyes of the
gallant admiral who was the subject of the accusation.
That gallant admiral immediately gave notice that ho
would take such proceedings as would lead to a full inves-
tigation into the truth of the charge brought against him.
The result was that there was published in the papers some
other letter which appeared to be a retractation and apo-
logy for the hon. member for what he had stated. Apply-
113gthese circumstances to the case before the house, might
which would induce there _ not ho seine other letter, or some other evidence,
which. would be produced before the secret committee,
ber, and whichemially erroneous as that of the hon. mem-
to
..
conclusion the members of the committee to come
quence of the secrecyPorth accused would not, in cense-
Ttcommittee, have the opportu-
ecrhetrespect to the proposal for
D ity of contradicting ?
making the committee aWs
ho felt that, if he had
?itly or indirectly con-
had the honour of being eitheorr°dlrie:
command in tho
nected with any public offie,3w,ould y
army or navy, he certainly
honour of the
him by a secret
refuse to give a single
answer to a single question pcuotnfitdoent
such
mittee, but would appeal to the justice and h con'
English people, appeal would
not be made in vain. (Hear, hear.)
after the steps "
he had
the cue to Which taken
in order to set himself right iu 11 the hoe.
Mr. LAYARD complained,

~; ~~

00. ..-.0411011.

curred to me as dangers to be avoided. I say, Sir, that if
this house does give an order of secrecy, and if that order
of secrecy is constantly and deliberately violated, you will
be lowered in public estimation if you have not the courage
and the constancy to give effect to your decision. (Cheers.)
But, if you are going to enter into a conflict with the
press of this country, you must gird up your loins and
prepare for a serious struggle ; and T warn you that in
that conflict you will not succeed unless you are backed
by public opinion. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) My belief
is that, if you engage in such a conflict, as matters new
stand, you will not succeed. I will say more—that I
think you ought not to succeed, because I believe that the
public interests will not be promoted by your order of se-
crecy. Public opinion will be grossly violated by it, and
justice to individuals will be placed in the utmost jeopardy.
(Hear, hear.) I have told you of the danger of your en-
tering into an encounter with the press without reason or
justice on your side, and in violation of public opinion ;
but is there no other danger to be avoided ? Have you
considered your relative position with reference to the
House of Lords ? The House of Lords have, I believe,
notified to you—at least, I saw the messenger here just
now, though I am not aware whether his message has been
delivered—that they have given their consent that one of
their body shall attend the select committee of thin house,
if he should think fit to do so. You change the character
of your tribunal. (Hear, hear.) You convert it into a
secret tribunal. (Hear, hear.) Are you sure that the
House of Lords will cobnusnenalt?tha(tHeoanre,
shall attend a secret tri their
ynoluermbor
com-
mittee now becomes, not a court of justice, not a court of
hoefar.
inquiry, but an Inquisition—(loud and continued cheering)
—composed of 11 inquisitors, some of whom have prejudged
the question which will be mainly at issue before them.
I know net what the decision of the House of Lords may be,
but I warn you how you come into conflict with the press of
this country and with the privilege of the House of Lords
in such doubtful circumstances. I could, if I thought fit
to detain yeti, multiply instances of many coming dangers
which I foresee from your proceedings ; but I think the
two which I have mentioned incidentally, as lying on the
very surface, are enough to warn you to be cautious in
the proceedings you are about to take. If Ministers, Ad-
mirals, Generals are to be tried—if their conduct is to be
submitted to this ordeal—if further sacrifices be necessary
--immolate in the face of day. (Loud cheering.) Don't
smother and stifle persons' reputation which have hitherto
stood the test of time in No. 17. Act as becomes the re-
presentatives of a free and generous people, who never seek
concealment for their thoughts or for their actions. What
they dare to do they are ever ready to avow. There are,
perhaps, dangers in this inquiry. I shall not revert to
thenn. I stated them at too much length on a former oc-
casion. I am willing to intrust the inquiry to the 11 gen-
tlemen to whom you have committed it, if you will keep
over that committee the constant check of publicity. I
shall look upon that committee with apprehension greater
than I shall state if you should, in an ill-omened moment,
come to the decision to-night that the proceedings of the
committee shall be secret. In that case I see dangers in-
numerable ; I think the object for which the committee
was granted will not be obtained ; and I entreat the house
carefully to pause before they give effect to what I must
consider a most injudicious recommendation. (Cheers.)
Mr. LAYARD said that, when the question of the ap-
pointment of a committee was brought before the house,
he expressed his opinion that it would give rise to great
inconvenience and would shackle the Executive. The ap-
pointment of the committee was carried by a large ma-
jority, and the Government themselves stated that they
would accept that vote as a vote of confidence or no confi-
dence. The house was, therefore, obliged to deal with the
question as it was placed by the Government, putting
aside its merits. Upon that vote the Government wont
out of office. If the question had been brought forward
since the present Government had been in office, and
if they had placed it on the ground of a vote of confidence,
he would have felt considerable difficulty in determining
in what way he should give his vote, for he could not say
that either the houselor the country felt much confidence
in the existing Administration. (A laugh.) He had en-
tertained objections to the appointment of the committee,
because he did not think that the executive Government
could be carried on by men whose conduct was under cri-
ticism up stairs ; but that objection had been removed by
the retirement from the Administration of those members
of the Government whose conduct had been impugned.
The house having decided that inquiry should be prose-
cuted by a committee, it was his duty to ascertain in what
way that inquiry could be conducted with the greatest
advantage to the public interests, and in a manner to
secure the results which were expected by the country.
He had been somewhat astonished to find that the two
hon. members of the committee who had voted agisinst
secrecy were gentlemen who had voted against the com-
mittee of inquiry, and that, too, on the ground that the
appointment of such a committee would be a mischievous
and dangerous proceeding. He supposed, however, that
they had some reasons for thus ostentatiously showing the
country that they were now voting against secrecy. He
was still mere astonished at the line of argument pursued
by the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) and'some other
hon. members. Tho noble member for Totness (Lord Sey-
mour) had asked whether any new fasts had come to their
knowledge? He (Mr. Layard) would at once reply that
new facts had become known. The three right hon. gen-
tlemen near him had stated the other night that, if
they were put upon their defence, and if this inquiry
were prosecuted, they might bo compelled to enter into
very delicate matters and to call in question the conduct
of our ally. They then expressed a strong opinion against
the appointment of the committee, but to-night, forsooth,
the right hon. baronet contended that the committee
should be an open committee, and that all dangerous
questions might be avoided, although it was only the
other night that he told them they would have to enter
into transactiops which had taken place between the Go-
vernment of this country and our allies. Ono objection to
the inquiry being an open one was that it might affect
private character, anal that was undoubtedly a strong ob-
jection ; but that was not a ground which would influence
his vote, for he looked merely to the question of danger to
the public interests in connection with our relations with
onr silliers. It was Raid that secremy was a novelty, but
this alliance was also a novelty—the union of two armies in
one great enterprise was a novelty. There were three
courses open to them. The first was to prosecute the in-
quiry by a committee open to the public. What was the
objection to that course, putting aside any question with
reference to private character ? They talked about private
character, but was our ally to becriminated, either directly
or indirectly, without having an opportunity of defending
himself ? The right hon. gentleman would insinuate t ,at
we were not the guilty parties; he did not say the right
hon. gentleman would throw blame on our ally, but that
was the inference which must be drawn, and we should
then be in the position of carrying on the inquiry, our ally
net having the means of defending himself, without know-
ing to what mischief it might lead. These being his ob-
jections to an open committee, they applied equally to a
committee at which the members of this house would be
allowed to be present. The country would not consent to
a half-and-half measure ; they would either have one thing
or the other. This was a great question •it affected every
man in the country ; there was not a cottager who did not
feel as deeply upon it as any member of this house, and the
public would not be satisfied if they were excluded when
members of Parliament were admitted. He wished to make
no insinuation against any member of the house, but he
would remind thm that committees had sat bef, re nett to
which members alone had been admitted. Such a commit-
tee sat last year, seriou-ly affecting the character of some
of the members—and what was the result ? Why, the most
scandalous accusations were spread -abroad against those
gentlemen whose conduct was the subject of inquiry.
Would the right hon. gentleman make no distinction be-
tween 11 members, with a proper sense of responsibility,
and 600 members, any of whom might come into the room,
and who had no sense of the responsibility at all ? If the
committee wore strictly secret, of course if anything tran-
spired they would know exactly the number of persons
who wore accountable for it. The right hon. gentleman
said the press would be against us; but he must say that
was a popular prejudice which the right hon. gentleman
ought to have avoided. His hon. and learned friend had
given notice of this resolution last night, and, if the press
had been so opposed to it, would not the press have
spoken out upon the subject this morning, before the house
came to a decision ? (Hear.) If the press took so deep an
interest in the question—if it attached such importance to
the inquiry being an open one—would not an expression of
its opinion have appeared this morning in every newspa-
per? Would not a strong appeal have been made to the
public, such as the leading papers know how to make ?
Would not an appeal have been made to the house to reject
the resolution ? But no such appeal had been made, and
he regretted that the right hon. gentleman was trying to
get up a feeling upon the question for party purposes. The
press had too high a sense of the immense interests at stake
in this question to cry out after a majority of the commit-
tee bad decided that it should be a secret committee ; it
had too deep a feeling of responsibility to compel the house
by public clamour to adopt a measure dangerous to the
public interest. The character of his hon. and learned friend
who had for so many years been connected with the popular
party was sufficiently well known to be a guarantee to the
public that the resolution of the committee had not been
adopted upon light motives. No man had more to lose them
himself (Mr. Leyard) by having voted in its favour; but lie
would notbe acoward. When hesaw that an act of duty was
necessary he would perform it, and ho believed it was essential
to the interests of the country that this should not be an
open committee. The right hon. gentleman had repeatedly
told them that they must rest their defence upon the conduc t
of our ally ; the right hon. baronet had used the expression
that the inquiry must "run up" into our connexion with
France. If that were se, our ally must either rest under
the accusations made against him, although they might be
calumnious, or the right hon. gentlemen must be refused
the means of justifying themselves, should the inquiry be
an open one. lie had, therefore, with great regret, and
after mature deliberation, being fully aware of the ingeni-
ous arguments which might be urged by the right hon.
gentleman, who, he knew, would take the opportunity, if
possible, to damage his character in the eyes of the country,
arrived at this conclusion, but nothing would compel him
to withdraw from the opinion he had formed. He had
now stated his motives for voting in favour of the resolu-
tion • he did not regret having done so, and he thought it
his duty to stand by that resolution. (Cheers.)

No ....a.