The Sun.
London, England, 1855-02-09 00:00:00

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fatieess of the Crown, he could not venture to give the gal- l this country. He was reported to have said that the ehfibetive
lent colonel an answer without running the risk of misleading I force beforethe Sebastopol, includingd the naal forceontso shore,
him. If, however, the gallant colonel would put his question
tohuaudte
since , in
been roundrepeatednumbers,
hy 30
the right
upon the votes, the Attorney-General would perhaps \ vm7eOlni. as
That statementarmYam
ills attention, although he was not bound to construe Ants eol f ho.a.. baronet the President of the Board ofWorks, and it cer-
tainly had excited some surprise. Ho had seen several letters
Par;iament. from the camp ono of them from a friend of his own, a gen-
Colonel SIBTHORP—You shall have it. (A laugh.) ,
O man of high rank, well capable of judging, and whose state-
POOR LAW (SCOTLAND.) smelt might be relied on ; and his statement certainly coin-
Mr. E. ELLICE (St. Andrew's) said that in the month of
tided with statements tlett had already been made in the
June last year certain returns were ordered withregard to
house, viz, that the effectiveforce unfortunately did not ex-
the relief of the poor in Scotland. Those returns did
not
differ in any respect from others usually made by the poor
_ seed 12,000 men. There could be no party feeling on this
question, but it was natural to suppose that the statement of
law boards in England and Ireland. Nevertheless they ivece
not produced in the course of last session, and in the month the Chancellor of the Exchequer was derived from official re,.
of December he wrote to the Under-Secretary for the Home turns made to the horse Guards from the army, and his
Department, calling his attention to the circumstances, object in rising was only to express a hope that the right
tan, requesting him to make an inquiry. Still the returns hon. gentleman. the next time the house met, would be able
were not forthcoming, and he now wished to know whether to satisfy the country that his statement was one upon which
the delay arose from the ignorance or inability of the board the country could rely. They read every day that their
of supervision, and when it was likely the returns would be army was wasting away, and that a frightful catrastophe was
produced. awaiting them. The state of their army was literally stated
Mr. FITZROY replied that the return moved for on the to be such that they could not count upon its existence ; an('
Md. of last June was immediately despatched to Scotland. if the right hon. gentleman could confirm the statement he
Having understood from his hon. friend in the course of time had made, it would go far to comfort the people of England
that no answer had been furnished, he (Mr. Fitzroy) again during the week during which urgent public business was to
communicated with the Lord Advocate on the subject, and be again adjourned. The Crimea had proved a sepulchre for
on the 16th of January last he received from him a letter, the men who had not fallen in battle. A great body of our
etiolesing one from the Secretary of the Board of Supervision best and bravest soldiers had been saciiticel to neglect and
in Scotland, stating that the answer furnishedby thediffereut incompetence, a blot and a stain had been cast upon the fair
parochial inspectors proved that they bad misunderstood the fame of the country, and the security to
mof the
woul empire d
be was, ii
nature nature of the information they were desired to furnish. Their clangor. He trusted the right hon. genan able
answers had therefore been sent back to them, with a request to establish the statement he had made.
that they would furnish information more consistent with the Mr. STUART WORTLEY did not know whether the right
object with which the return had been moved for. The con- hon, gentleman was about to give any promise fur a futuresequence was that it would probably be some time before the
:lay, but for his part ho did
tnhioisstkienadrnoensttlhye
bdeepncrleiceastoef thetm
proper answer could be given.
THE ARMY BEFORE SEBASTOPOL. e
repetition of statements of •
Mn. RICH wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer house. Those statements wore not only read and hoard in
whether he was prepared to lay upon the table a copy of this house and in this country, but they were read and heard
the silicial document upon which he ventured to make a elsewhere also. Honourable gentlemen ought therefore to
statement most gratifying to the public in their present ex- fool the very deep responsibility that was laid upon them as
cited state, viz., that at the time the latest reports were made members of that house. For his part, he could not under-
there were 28,300 men under arms before Sebastopol, inde-
pendent of the naval brigade,marinas, and all menin
the m stand that patriotism which indulged itself In repeating what
hospitals at Balaklava or elsewhere ? he believed to be exaggerated statements of the weakness of
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER need hardly ac- ear forces before Sebastopol. Ho could not understand
quaint the right hon. member that in making that statement what good it was to serve, Was it supposed by any man
he was acting upon returns which were not under his own
that what the noble lord the member for the city of Lou-
control, but which had been furnished him by the military
.don described as the " horrible and heart-rending" suffer-
departments, and ho would rather not give any answer with
of the y were subjects upon which any Government
respect to the production of those returns until the members
tenogusld be indifferent—(hear, hear, and Ministerial cheers)—
of the Government more particularly interested had had time
to consider the question. Perhaps he might be permitted or that the existing wants of the army were not present to
now to advert to what was stated yesterday with respect to the mind of the Government at that very moment ? Was it
the order of business in the house. He thought there had not the fact that the house had insisted upon a substitution
then been a general impression in the house, if he could recall of the men engaged in the supervision of the War Depart-
Its right feeling, that it would not be desirable to proceed to went, for the very purpose of endeavouring to effect an al-
any important business until his noble friend the member teration in the existing state of things ; and was there any
for Tiverton, who had accepted the office of First Lord of advantage, or any national object, to be gained by repeating,
the Treasury should have had an opportunity of submitting day after day, those melancholy statements—statements
himself to his constituents after vacating his seat. If the which, he again said, he believed to be grossly exaggerated ?
noble lord should be re-elected, he could not with any cer- He believed there wore few of them who had not friends and
tainty be expected to make his re-appearance in the house relatives in the Crimea. He himself had blood relations
before the middle of next week. He thought, also, that the there, shedding their blood and doing their best in the ser-
feeling was, that it would be very inconvenient that the house vice of their country. They all received private letters from
should meet for the purpose of despatching business of form, their friends there. He knew that those letters spoke with
it being understood that no substantial business was to be feeling and pity of the sufferings of the soldiers, but he had
brought before them during the time between the preseuttime still to learn that any officer had yet written from that camp
and the period at which they should re-assemble for the do- in terms of despondency. (Loud cheers.) Everything he
spatch of important business. He had then stated that they had seen and heard confirmed his belief that the officers let-
had some apprehension on account of the necessity of obtain- ters' from the camp, while they lamented the hardships our
brave soldiers so heroically underwent, contained oxpreasiens
big votes, iu committee of ways and means, for the ordnance
and navy departments ; it was thought it would be necessary of the utmost confidence in the result of the expedition.
that the house should meet from day to day, but, being anxious (Renewed cheering.) A comparison had been drawn between
to avoid putting the house to any inconvenience, they had the state of our army and that of the French army. He
asked, was it fair to draw any such comparison ? It was not
looked into that matter, and found it would be possible for
them to make the necessary provision for the public service for him to state what was the exact position of the French
provided the house would not adjourn for a longer period army ; they heard very little about that army, because it was
after to _sorrow than to Friday next week. Whathe proposed, very little spoken of ; but he was certain that the condition
therefore, was this—to give notice for the order of business of that army would be much worse than it was if there were
for to-morrow week as follows :—The first subject to be taken in Franco opportunities of making statements like some that
should be the navy estimates ; second, the army estimates ; were made in that house. But was this all ? If these state-
and then there should be notice of a committee on the sub- merits did not serve this country, whom did they serve ? In
ject of the newspaper stamp. He had a confident expectation making statements so well calculated to discourage their own
that the right hon. baronet the Frst Lord of the Admiralty soldiers—if it were possible to discourage them—they did every-
would be in his place to move the navy estimates. It would thing it was possible to do to give courage to the enemy.
be, he hoped, not inconvenient for the house to meet to- He would venture to say that if another attack was made
morrow for the purpose of putting forward the money votes upon the position of the army, it would be those gentlemen
they had been obliged to submit for the immediate exigencies who made or received statements like these who would con-
of the service ; but as to-morrow was a Friday, it had ap- tribute to such a result. He believed that the Russian army
peered to them that it would be more convenient for the had suffered quite as much as it had been represented to
house to meet at 12 o'clock, Ile should, therefore, give notice have done, for on no other supposition could he account for
that night that Mr. Speaker do take the chair next day at 12 its inaction. If honourable gentlemen desired the present
o'clock, and he should on that occasion move the adjourn- state of things to be remedied, let them have a strong Go-
mont of the house until Friday, the 16th of February. vernment —let them sanction the selection of the Crown, if,
Colonel SIBTHORP was proceeding to make some obser- as he believed was the case, a strong Government could be
vatious with reference to the adjournment of the house, formed; but let them not, night after night, make state-
when he was called to order, and resumed his seat. ments of facts which, in his belief, were greatly exaggerated,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to ex- and would incite the enemy to attack the army. (Hear, hear,)
plain that the hon. gentleman behind him had misappre- He had only lately seen statements in the French news-
handed his meaning. He had not stated that there were Papers which were well known to be inspired by high autho-
-28,300 men under arms before Sebastopol. What he had rities in that country, expressing their astonishment and
said was, that there were the number of men in the discharge shame at the tone assumed by the House of Commons.
of military duty before Sebastopol. They pointed out the pregnant fact that since the year 1815
SUPPLY. this country had asserted that it was a non-military power,
The house then went into committee of supply. and had tried to forget the art of war, resting upon the
laurels which it had already won ; they pointed out, also,
The Hon, Mr. COWPER proposed a vote of 1,615,0001. for
that since 1815 France had been anxious to retrieve the
the arrears of naval expenditure during the year 1854-55.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know whether that was position of her army by every means in her power ; that for
twenty years they had had campaigns in Algeria, as the best
the total amount of the vote ? school for their army, and that the English army was at
Mr. COWPER said that the total amount of the vote was
1,933,104/. that moment reaping the fruits of the experience which
they (the French) had acquired under the walls of Constantino.
Mr. BAILLIE could perfectly Well understand the incon-
venience of Ministers giving information on this subject, and,
if any questions were asked, they would be perfectly justified
in saying that they did not choose, or that it was inconve-
nient for the public service, to answer such questions. How-
ever,
the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer made a voluntary statement the other night, and
that statement bad been voluntarily repeated the night before
by another Minister. Now, when statements—which turned
out to' bo so different from other accounts—were made by
Ministers, he thought that the house had a right to ask for
the grounds on which those statements were made, and that
the right lion, gentleman should give some explanation. He
(Mr. Mille) thought that these gentlemen had included not
only British troops, but Turks under the command of Lord
Raglan, as well as the wounded, because in no other way was
it possible to account for the statements which had been made.
He knew that there were returns at the Horse Guards which
stated that there were only 10,365 moo before Sebastopol.
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I do not wonder that my '
right hon. friend the Recorder of London wishes to deprecate
discussions of this kind ; but there has been one statement so
put forth that I do not wonder that hon. gentlemen ask for 1
dxplanations, or are surprised at the difference which exists
between the reports ordinarily circulated and official state-
ments. Now, with respect to the statements usually put
forth, I will take any number-12,000 or 14,000. I will say ,
that there are 12,000 mon before Sebastopol, and it is ad-
mitted that 54,000 have been sent out. You ask, how is it
that you have only 12,000 remaining ? The house should
know that this is not a fair comparison. If you take 54,000
on the one side, you ought not to take 12,000 or 14,000 ou the
other. The total of 54,000 included every military man which
we sent out—all the cavalry, all the artillery, every commis-
sioned officer and every non-commissioned officer ; every man,
in short, who was present under arms, every man who was em-
ployed as an orderly, and every man who was engaged in any
military capacity. When, therefore, you have taken away
all the cavalry, all the artillery, every commissioned officer,
and every non-commissioned officer, and all those employed
on other duties, you have a residuum of 12,000 or 14,000
men under arms • but that is not a fair comparison of the
men left out of the 54,000 sent out. You must add all those
who were included in the 54,000, and you then find that you
have a force of some 28,000 or 30,000 men ; and if you and
14,000 for the sick, that will account for 44,000 out of the
54,060. It is a mistake, but it is a mistake which Ido not
wonder that hon. gentlemen should have fallen into, and I
think that it ought to be explained to the country, that these
statements are a mistake. Sir, of course, the state of our
troops has been very lamentable, and I should be the last
person to say that every member of this house should not
feel deeply and give expression to his feelings. It happened
to me yesterday to meet a civilian who had just returned
from the Crimea, and I asked him whether the men were
much emaciated. He said there were certainly a kreat many
sick, but with regard to a great portion of the troops, who
had fair constitutions, they seemed to be in the possession of
strength, and ready to perform any military duty. It must
not be forgotten that ours is not the only army before Sebes-
topol. There is a strong army of our allies there, and I be-
lieve that there is at least a force of 80,000 men, and it may
be a good deal more, before Sebastopol. I would only say
further, I have seen with great pain and concern the attacks
which have been made on the gallant commander of the forces
—on Lord Raglan. He is not only an experienced soldier,
but a man of as much feeling for the sufferings of the troops
under his command as any man who ever wore the Bri-
tish uniform. I trust that ho will rise clear of all the at-
tacks made upon him by a ribald press. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to what my right honourable friend tho Re-
corder of London stated, the house has now before them
a minister, as First Lord of the Treasury, who has had great
experience in these matters—(hear, hear)—who has al-
ways satisfied the house, both by the declaration of opinions
the most patriotic and at the same time by the adequate dis-
charge of his ministerial duties. Tho noble lord will be
assisted by my noble friend who, I hear, has accepted the
office of Secretary for the War Department. He is a perfect
master of all the principles which regulate an army, and of
all the details, and, I have no doubt, will turn his attention
to every improvement relative to the supply of the army, and
will not beinduced to adopt, under the name of improvements,
innovations which may be destructive of the army, but will
adopt those improvements which the science of the present
day will enable them to carry out. I believe that my noble
friend the Secretary of State for the War Department will be
ready to act in a manner which will increase the efficiency of
our army, which has suffered, not from the want of discipline
nor the want of military organisation, but from the failure of
the civil departments. Ido not pretend to speak as to de-
tails, but I know that when the Duke of York fitted out the
regiments for the Peninsular war there was no want of discipline,
no want of organisation, no want of an army at any time ready
to sustain the reputation of the country. I cannot think,
therefore, that there can be so much defect as it is the fashion
to assert ; but I have no doubt that, after 40 years of peace,
that organisation may have got out of use or been forgotten,
It may he that, in the first year of the war, by attempting-
too much we have fallen into those grievous misfortunes
which the country now deplores. (Hear, hear.) I feel sure
that these services will be re-organised by my noble friend,
and that this house will vote any money which may be re-
quired for the restoration of these establishments ; and I feel
sure that the majority of this house will give him a cordial
support, and will not be deterred by these statements, but
will—of course retaining the power to interfere at any time,
if they find the interests of the country require it—give the
Ministry the opportunity of carrying into effect all the mea-
sures that may bo "required by means of the executive, with-
out any undue interims:nice on the part of the house. (Hear.)
Mr. RICH said he was still anxious that the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have au
opportunity of explanation, for he still felt that, notwith-
sht:inidibeneguthe explanation of the noble lord who had just sat
down, there was a ‘wide discrepancy in the statements which
i stanfiate the
made,
and that the cavalry and artillery would not
I:ii
.iel gn
to
at the,u
itft,s•,ewid..tfrese.e:s.rence. If Government returns could sub_
1:::::.
goo,ll,,uth of the statements, he thought he should
v.,,ibeiee
tettt.,,i,o,;ctis.iremayrnwiyasai7idtitihee
sctaaitien ttiha:,
tbat-hberei imiigt...-
ifto was better for the cowl tiy to know
narrTrTice, and better even for items
truth ;
sin. His object was to
I,.tt he wislitecl to p3intbao:o:alys
; "
.Inuself from a participation in
public those sombre statemengtse,akinat
Chancellor of the Ex-
Lneldii.thvaet he
from official state-
cal::
vitelii.el ri
shouldglit 1 isoantisfy
the
ments, on those important particulars.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY ex
taken part in the conversation to
tone of despondency which had been assumed b-e' against tho
I several hon.
members.
Mr. V. HARCOURT said that he had relations out with
the army in the Crimea, and he felt as deeply interested
asany man could be on the subject. He felt that he should be
neglecting his duty if he did not say that his private letters
were different to those which the:hon. member for Weymouth
(Mr. G. Butt) had alluded to. They made many allusions to
occasional hardships, to bad weather and suffering; but they
all contained words not only of hope, but of confidenco of

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On the bringing up of the report on the .Ordnanee Esi
mates, . .

Mr. WILLIAMS said that he had been that morning in-
formed by letters received from Plymouth, that a company
of Sappers and Miners, lately embarked there on board the
Princess Alice, had been so embarked in a state of mutiny,
caused by starvation, because Captain Lyons would not. allow
thorn to eat anything inside the Victualling-yard. The men
came down to Plymouth by an early train, and wore marched
into the Victualling-yard to wait to be embarked. Their
embarkation, however, did not take place till late in the
afternoon, and during the whole of this time they had no food
supplied to them. When these circumstanees became known
in the town, Mr. Harris, a bootmaker, and a few other re-
spectable men, provided them with bread and cheese and beer
at an hotel. This was a case of very gross neglect. These
were men on the eve of embarkation for the Crimea, and he
appealed to the house if that was the way in which the brave
defenders of their country ought to be treated / (Hear.)
_ .

Many of the poor fellows were so exhausted by their famished
state that they were unable any longer to keep their feet,
and were obliged to throw themselves down on the ground.
Only two days sub_ equently her Majesty passed through Ply-
mouth on her way to Osborne. She was surrounded on her
passage by all the Plymouth officers decked in their gayest
uniforms ; but had she known that the people by whom she
was encircled had only recently been guilty of an infamy such
as that he bad just related to the house, she would have chased
them from her presence with disgust. Ho should make no
objection to the vote that had been proposed by the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, although
the greatest waste of public money had been made, and that
by the most gross neglect he had ever heard of. In the vote
before the house there was a sum of 649,5001. for great-coats,
boots and shoes, and warm clothing for the troops, for huts
for the men, stable huts, hospital huts, and other items of a
like nature, and yet there was a vote in the last session of up-
wards of 600,0001. for the very same purposes. In fact, a sum
amounting to 1,570,0001. had been spent in providing those
comforts of the men. If this enormous sum had saved the
life of one of those brave men he would not have objected to
paying it ; but when he saw it wasted away, when he saw
the comforts of the men rotting in the dock at Balaklava—
(eheers)—and elsewhere, and our brave troops perishing for
want of food, clothing, and shelter, he could not help feeling
that there must have been gross mismanagement of the most
disgraceful kind. This Ordnance department was the worst
managed department in this country, bad as they all were—
(hear)—and he hoped it would be included in the new Secre-
tary of War. The head of that department was in com-
mand of an army 3,000 miles off. Had he been at his office
in Pall-mall, instead of in the Crimea, he (Mr. Williams) be-
lieved the lives of many thousands of our men, as well as the
honour and character of the country, would have bean saved.
Our diasters were much more to be attributed to the want of
common sense and common management than to any other
cause. How was it that this country could send the neces-
ary stores to an army 3,000 miles off, and the general
commanding that army in chief could not find the means of
transporting them seven miles further on I Had he taken
the advice of any sergeant of the line, instead of consulting
only some aristocratic officers, all' these misfortunes would
have been avoided, for the commonest sergeant of the line
could have told him how. Lord Raglan did nothing. He
only wrote to the Admiralty in despair. Had he written to
our ambassador at Constantinople, 2,000 labourers might
have been immediately sent him, who would have constructed
a road in 48 hours. The manner in which our brave army
had been left without raiment, food, or shelter, had dis-
graced the nation, and lowered it hi the eyes of the civilised
world. He hoped the new Glover nmenkwould act with energy
and courage sufficient to remedy and remove these evils. He
hoped the house also would support. them. If they would
only relieve our troops effectually they would earn the thanks
of the nation. He wished to know also from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer whether this was money that had been ex-
pended or that was to be expended ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that it
was a vote for money to beexpended.

The vote was then agreed to.
EDUCATION BILL.

- Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I rise to move for leave to bring
in a bill on the subject of education. Ido not wish to enter
into any explanation of the bill, or any statement with refer-
ence to its provisions. It is of importance, however, that the
bin should be brought before the house, in order that it should
be printed, and then that people in the country may see the
Objects it proposes to attain. I shall, therefore, only move
that the bill be now brought in.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
TAXATION OF MINES (IRELAND.)
Mr. J. FITZGERALD obtained leave to bring in a bill to
4644eilate the law for the taxation of mines-in Ireland with
that__ _
si, l'!,nlitlaud.
)anti froin"lVG said this was a bill to exempt mines in Ire-
bad been
.eoale tmEation, on the ground that !nines in England
doubtful qu,,,Zirl,ted from time immemorial. It was a very
ureether this principle could be assented to.
Mr.WILSON g„„I3,,E3uINtiESS THIS DAY.
the house resolve itself ties
that he should this day move that
Ou the motion for the to committee of ways and means.
imialzrnment'of the house,
Colonel SIRTHORP
present state of public affairs andeeply regretted that in the
te, use house such as the motion any motion should be proposed
right hon. gen-
tle.:-an had given notice—viz.,
inaret
very
well should adjourn
that those
till Friday the 16th inst. He was
gentlemen opposite felt very uncomfortable
hear,
wished for time for re-election ainnkd
trheieset
nannrry. :(*riZeielerls, and
and laughter.) He did not think
to such an indiscreet postponement under the excitie‘gibret
He thought they-
cur.stanceB in which they were placed.
ought all to offer their thanks to the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Sheffield for the inquiry he had promised to bring foward, and of the result of which there could be no doubt what-
ever.r-more considera-
id sadois composing our army He wished the Government had.a little
tea for the brave soldiers
than they appeared to have.
He had last night, to his deep
regret, seen upon the Treasury benches smiles that he thought
Most unbecoming, unfeeling, and indecent—(a 9t----(a laugh) and
had not the house been ia the state in which it was, he should
have risen in his place and directed its attention to the sub-
.4,w,t. (Laughter.) Now, hour was of When every
importance
all the house bad to look to was a shabby Ministry in a sta e
t
Of disgrace, who, he regretted to B.v, had not been finery ex.
eluded from office. Ho had, he hoped, the feelings of a sol-
dier ; and with such feelings he begged to ask in what state
our army now was ? Do let them know what was to be done
—do let them be up and stirring,; this sort of disgraceful
' apathy had already lasted far too long, and ought to be put
a stop to. They were getting •nothing done, and this, motion
for adjournment was only a shuffling pretext to shelter a
Ministry who had been guilty of ignorance, who did not know
where they were, nor what they should do ; but he trusted
the time was not far distant when the house would send them
off, never to return. (Laughter.)
their. G. BUTT wished to call the attention of the Chancellor of !
xch.squer to a statement he had made in the house on a
recent
- ("eeesion, which had very much cheered the people of