The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-19 00:00:00

, s
under mililary arrangements, and their officers are amen- ' for any-Government to have the Master-General-of the
able to the military authority and subject to militarydis-- Ordnance in the Cabinet. The Duke of -Wellington w
cipline. The officer who has charge of this department is uniformly the honest adviser of all Ministers—(lrear)—brit- a •
a military officer, and it is intended to continue in the the position of affairs is now very different, andl do think 's
charge of this and other departments the most efficient that to take from the Government the power of kering any.
officers that are to be found in the ranks, of the Royal Ar- military friend- of their own, whatever his authority tillery ; but, in order that they may be enabled to direct in the Cabinet, to adiise with confidentially, as has been a ri-,.a.
,
their attention entirely to the duties of the departments the case undersell circumstances in former times, will be a -..
over which they shall have charge, I .propose that they very great -loss to the public. •It is impossible' that the
shall be seconded from their regiments for a period _of five Government Should not- on 'Many occasions have derftrAld a s
years, and after that, if it is not thought necessary to con- great advantage from the assistance of the late Lord Angle-
tinue them as the leads of those departments over which' - , • sastaisirrireraT- the teabinetrb-ut now in what a Posi-
they may- have had charge, they shall resume their position
,tl29a-evf,irueint's PoisaLof tire -noble -load Dice
_the
.GOvern-
in the regiments in the -same-manner es_ eagineers• taken Pac drilroposee-to-aliolialithe office of Master-General
irom-the Artillery for civil service are treated at present:, asi the Ordnance. , The Secretarjr at War and the Clerk of
Thiel will relieve those officers from the immediate control the Ordnance are civilians. The Minister for War will of, their commanding officer, and at the same time leave usually be a civilian: Indeed it would be a.very great ads
them in their proraer position in the regiment wis heat loss of vantage to the public if any military man should be in a
the Minister for War
promotion or tank, while it will rocure' for the civil per- position to bold the-office. (Hear bean) We must,
willjgenerally be a civilian. In the officio. of the Minister
how-
tion of the War Department the services of officers of the ;ever, look hi the probaeiiity • that'
greatest energy to conduct the businese of those depart-
is to_deal
ments over which they may be placed.'• - The next officer for War- will direct not only the movements of the
is the superintendeat of -.the :carriage' departments-. which ray, but who, under the.proposed alterations, is a department now existing. Thissofficer will be.eharged wltirall the setentiffe- detiflas which- are called civil, but
with the construction of- all inn carliagessfor tlie-riaarY as which areratiellftiallitary—there Will not be, therefore,
well-as army, of waggons for "ammunition-find Laid trans. - one military mail, tutor svill the - ueble lord . have the
porta of ambulances for- the sick, and • all military ma- means of bringing to his side' any one military .man in
chines. This includes a large manufacture of iron work E 3 whoin he has confidence. No doubt military men will most
well as of wood. This officer 'will also have to secoial, in i willingly giie him their adtiee on ell occasions when they
the same way, for a period of five years during which he ' may ba asked to do so, brit he cannut be in Abe habit of
is at the head of the department—When he may be changed, daily confidential communication with a military anan in •
though this is not absolutely necessary, and may return to --setionrhe has-confidences and whose advice might be most
his regiment without the loss of promotion or rank in the valuable in enabling him.te coaductsatisfaetorili the busi-
service. The next officer is tle superintendent of the labora- tress of his office. I think this will not only be a gieat loss
tory. This officer will be charged with thepreparation of tun- to the individual minister, bat that it will also be i seriou
munition for every species of arm; likedese cf all combasti- loss to the public. Many of the alterations which are sug.
ble material and pyrotechnic composition for the army and gested by the noble lord may be improvements, but expe-
navy. The next officer to whom I shall refer is the superin- rience only can show whether they are improvements or
tendent of small arras, who is not confined to Woolwich, as not. I have thought it right to state those objections which
your lordships are aware that there is erected, or almost seem to me to apply practically to a material part of the
finished, at Enfield, a Government manufactory of small general scheme of the Government, and I hope the noble
arms, which, though it will not at present supply the army lord, if he can do so, will place upon the table a memeran.
to the extent it may require, will, at all events, enable the dam showing at one view all the alterations whi-ch it is ins
Government, in time of peace, to accumulate a sufficient tended to carry into effect.
store to supply the army hereafter in time of war. This
officer will be charged with the duty of the construction of Earl GREY—I quite concur with the noble earl in the
such small arms as are manufactured by the Government; great ad vantage of having such a memorandum prepared
with the inspection of all small arms furnished by contract, and laid before the house, but I would go a little further.
to understandi
and be responsible for their proof and their correspondence My reason•for not entering into the discussion to-night is be-
with pattern. Your lordships will perceive that the du- cause I think it quite ties which this officer will have to perform are of a very really
able teoliismpscohsseimbleii,
whichfor anyisof9nyeonorf lordships
important character, and it- is proposed to place at thewider-
.greater detail •
head of that department an officer of the Royal Artillery,complication, Without having it before you in much
to second in the same way. There is one other depart- than is the case at present. I agree with the
went only to which I have now to advert. It is a very noble earl that it is very fortunate it is not necessary to
important one, and is now connected with theßoyal La- carry a measure through Parlianient
boratory ; but I think the duties are so extensive, and
much better done by the the future administration of the army. I think this may be
in order to regulatis
performed altogether so distant from Woolwich, that it
authorityexplaining
transfershould all the property
manufacture, now conducted at Waltham Abbey. The which is now vested by
Master-General of the Ordnance to f Parliament in the
officer who will take charge of that department will natu-
think, however, it is very desirable thnaetirthaeuthorities. I
rally reside at or near Waltham Abbey, where the Govern-
ment mills are. He will,also be responsible-- fey receiving meats should be made by the Crown ; but
although arr aihnge*
are made by the Crown, I hope the
thatll b b? di to
and proving all gunpowder made by contract -for the Go-
yernmenie He will also be responsible for the quality and some formal document. I conceive it Lead
carry into effect measures of this kind in a vervis‘fl:ble
purity of the sa'tpetrelo be issued for the manufacture _of
gunpowder. He will also be responsible for a duty not at mode, and I hope 'that; either by new letters pateiit oer bayl
present belonging to that department—l mean the re- orders in Council, or by some equivalent document of well-
stoving of gunpowder, which appears to me to be essenti- known and formal authority, the respective duties of the
ally a duty attaching to the officer haying charge of the different officers who are to be appointed under the new
manufacture of gunpowder. He will also be an officer of arrangement will be clearly defined and that such docu.
the Royal Artillery, selected on account of his fitness for meat will be laid before Parliament'. (Hear.) I took the
the office; 'and the whole of the five officers I have men- liberty of mentioning some time ago that, in my opinion,
Cloned will, under the officer at the head of the civil the great mistake made last year, when the offices of Sea administration, conduct the business of the several de- cretary for War and the Colonies were divided, was in not
onThe manufacturing business will be carried having a minute of this kind prepared by her Majesty in
on upon the manufacturing principles adopted in this Council—(bear)—in which the new arrangements for the commercial country, and I hope with economy, regu- transaction of business might have been clearly defined. In
larity, and success. Now, the only other point to the hope that acme document will eventually be laid before
which I need refer is a question which has been Parliament, and that we shall then be able to form a better
asked, and may be asked again—lf we -have a civil officer opinion than we can at present of the plan which has been
representing these offices, what will the Under Secretary described to us, I shall forbear on the present occasion front
have to do ? My answer is simply that the duties of the going further into this discussion beyond saying a single
officer who will have the charge of the civil administration word or two. Upon one point I quite concur with the noble
of the army will be so multifarious that there will be plenty earl opposite. I cannot help fearing that, by the arrange..
of work for the Under-Secretary of State to do, in answer- went which is proposed, too great a mass of business of de.
ing in the absence of-his chief for all such points of the tail will be thrown upon the Secretary of State. No man
political administration of the War Department as he may holds more strongly than Ido the necessity of authority,
be responsible for—matters connected with the discipline but a concentration of authority is perfectly compatible,
of the army and with the movement of troops. When I under proper arrangements, with the due division of las
held the office of Secretary at War 99 out of every 10) bout, and, as far as I understand the scheme, Ido not think '
questions in the House of Commons affected points of mili- it provides for any concentration of authority. I cantinas
tary discipline, the movements of troops, and matters of of the opinion I have formerly expressed, that with re.
that description, rather than financial matters more imme-, gard to business of this kind, involving a great many de-
diately connected with the duties of the office. I appre- tails, no organisation is so good as that of a board ; and I
bend, therefore, there- will at least at present be room for quite concur with the noble earl there should be a chief of
both these officers, and I do not propose to dispense with the board, whose opinions should be unquestionable by the
the Under-Secretary of State iu the House of Com- subordinate members and who should hve authority to
mons, although we make ' a new officer, or rather carry into effect his own opinions. I believe, practically,.
charge an old officer with new duties. Such, my .every First Lord of the Admiralty, who is competent to
lords, is the scheme which, after careful consideration, I- perform the duties of the office, is First Lord to that ex-
have laid before your lordships. Ido not pretend to say tent, and I cannot give a better illustration than by quot-
that it is perfect, but it will by daily operation work itself ing the well-known axiom of the late Lord Spencer as to
into smooth gear. My object is to infuse into our busi- the mode of . carrying on business at a board. Lord
nes3 transactions the spirit of commercial activity and Spencer said—" I tell my subordinates that, if they can-
acuteness, and into our operative departments the sound not work with me, and carry my views into effect, I
principles and common-sense practice of the manufacturing mast have a new board." (Laughter.). If each mem-
distrists—so to arrange all branches that one Mind may ber of a board is to be standing upon his own opinion,
pervade the whole machine, and at the same time be kept it is perfectly obvious the business must come to a dead-
clear of all the small details of its varied operation. The e lock. You must have concentration of authority, and
may be some little trouble, some little asperities at first ; j cannot help fearing that, while a groat mass of details
but these will soon pass away, and, with whatever feeling is thrown upon the Secretary of State, that concentration
these proposals may be received now, I anticipate that of authority is not provided. (Hear.) All through my noble
the time will come when when they will have justice friend's speech he seemed to lay great stress upon contieas.
done to them, and our motives in bringing them for- in the divisiou between military and civil business and
ward will be duly appreciate:a r have already stated military and civil duties. As it appears to me, he is going
these changes will not require any act of Parliament to to leave the Commander-in-Chief precisely as at the present
carry them into effect, and I may add that it is the time. lam persuaded that while this continues—while
intention of the Government to carry them out with one person is not responsible, both for the efficiency with
the least possible delay. I have said nothing as to which the Service is conducted, and for economy—you-will
the expenditure which Ines, be attendant upon these not have the machine working well. I believe it can made
changes, because lam as yet unable to produce- any de- to work well by a very simple alteration in the position of
tailed statement of the expenditure likely to accrue under the Commander-in-Chief. The only alteration necessary
the new system. But I can assure your lordships that I will be this : -that those proposals which it is now the
have so far ascertained the effects which may be expected duty of the Conimander-in-Chief to submit to the Sovereign
as to be able to say I have every reason tosbelieve-aira in person shall invariably go to the Sovereign through the -
deed, I feel convinced—we shall find it more economical nini3ter ol' -Wes. (clear.) I believe that a member of the
than the present system, and that I shall ntt be callstl Cabinet ought to submit to the Crown everything wisieas
upon to ask for a single shilling to pay these new officers requires the:sanction of the Crown, and that one insaubee
or to meet any increased expenaitaro. If these changes or another of the Cabiaet should be responsible for every
had been in my opinion calculated to operate to the pre- measure v,liich is approved by the Crown. (Hear) 11l
judiee of the public service, I should not havieundertaken •is an anomaly web, of recent date--it has grown up wilasaa
them at this- time, even at the risk of being blamed, toe the last Woe 70' years--thati illaD-y moat important nae-
gcther with my colleagues in the Government, for not cures, adopted by the Government relating to military
removing a grievance of which the public has thought it affairs, are submitted directly to the Sovereign by the
bad reason to complain. I am quite aware we have not tiolainander-in-Chicf, who is converted into a MiLister„
gone so far as some military reformers would call on us to instead of filling a subordinate position in a miLitaryoLfiee,
go, but I think we have gone far enough. The inbject The Earl of ELLENI3OROUGH—Perhaps the noble
has been carefully considered, both as to the changes them- lord will tell us what he intends shall be the future re/a-
selves, their effects, rind the propriety of introducing them Lions between what is now called the Trans Board and
at the present time, and I have little doubt that the adop- p
tion of these plans will be found conducive to an improved the Minister of War. Tho transport service was underoe of the Lords of The Admiralty. A baard has recently
administration of the civil departments of the army. It, been eenstituted. I have a great objection to all boards,
%lin, no doubt, be some time before all these improvements
but it appears to me nothing is so anomalous as the posi-
can show themselves, but I trust soon the system will be
Con of Captain Milne, a member of the Board of Admi.
found to be one which will command the approbation of rally, having a qualified authority over the Transport
the country, whose business we desire to conduct - with in- Board. (Hear.) So far as I can judge, the Transport Board
creased efficiency. (Hear, hear.) will not be placed in connection with the Minister of War,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—I must say it is ex- . though without the active co-operation of the Transport
tremely satisfactory to find that it is not considered neces- Board the Minister of War cannot move a regiment. If •
tohave
sary the Minister of War is to have control over -the move-
It is most desirable that the changes which the noble lord ments of the army by sea and by land, I cannot see how
the present arrangement can by possibility be consistent
proposes should be made on the authority of the Crown. with the public service, and I would suggest to the noble
The noble lord will then have an opportunity of making -lord to consider the expediency of abolishing the Transport
any alterations which he may think to be necessary,' and Board. (Hear.)
•
those who may succeed him will also have the same power. Lord MONTEAGLE hoped that their lordships would
especially be well informed as to the financial arrangementsl trust, also, when the noble lord reserves to himself the
relative to the army, but more particularly of the relation
power of displacing all present officers whose duties he
of the Commissariat to the Treasury. He himself had been
may consider can be better performed by other persons, a member of the commission which had recommended the
he will not hereafter be surprised if the same power consolidation of the army departments generally ; but with
should at some future time be exercised by his successors. reference to the Commissariats distinction had been drawn.
The abolition of the office of Master-General of the Ord- Within the last year the transactions of that department
nance, the amalgamation of the office of Secretary at War amounted to no leis a cum than 9,000,0001. sterling; and
with that of the Secretary of State for War,- and the union there was also at their disposal.a BLUE of 1-,000,000/. sterling
of the Commissariat with the War Department seem tome to be disbursed solely according to discretion. He believed
to be very great and important changes,and I think it would that if the proposed consolidation- took place, and that all
be convenient if the noble lord would direct that a memo-. this additional weight of business was to be thrown on
randum shall be prepared and laid upon the table for your . the Minister of War, there ought to be a Chancellor of
lordships' information, showing the present powers of the • the Exchequer solely for the War Department, to pr ovide
several officers whose situations it is proposed to abolish,' '
ways and means to meet his uncontrolled expenditure.
and the powers intended to be entrusted to the officers by fear
was that the proposed alterations would tend onl His
to
whom they are to be succeeded, so that we may have a overweight the Secretary of Slate. y
tabular view of the entire alterations which are proposed.
The Earl of HARDWICRE considered it was rather an
We are without anyinformation as to the manner in which
the Commissariat Department -a department of the great. anomaly that such a number of purely military offices
est importance—is to be administered. I apprehend that should be placed under the control of a civilian. However,
at present there is no one in that department between the in order to work out the syStein properly, he was for plac-
Minister for War and the chief clerk of the Commissariat ing the transport service entirely under the control of the
Department who formerly acted under Sir C. Trove- MiniSter of War. As things were at pressewnanthnonsueirll
lyan. It appears to me _ that there is a difficulty' in authority everywhereweretheperonnee w who
that shouldll
about all these arrangements, and I want to know what is at the purse. He never,. however, could
to be the real responsibility of the Minister for War. I be.' However, that heing so, and as the real power of.the
hthought
expenditure, e that
know that he will be answerable for his conduct in. his
f expenditure and responsibility ought to go
minister was his power of
place in Parliament, but I want to know to what extent the power o
.
,
he is to be really responsible. (Hear.) A Yeryconscientious hand in hand
man, placed at the head of the War Department, might Lord PANMURE said he bad only one word to aid to
think it necessary for him to leek into every detail of the what had fallen from the-noble earl opposite (the Earl of
Commissariat Department ; but, if he does that, and en- Ellenbor
ough) . He perfectly agreed with the noble earl
other departments connected with the ad-
thedeavours also to acquaint himself with all the details of
ministration of the army besides those which was intended
office of Secretary for War, and of the office of Ord- that there were other . .
it .
mindieal with at present which might require arrangement,
nance, it is perfectly impossible that he should perform
these duties satisfactorily, for he will be overwhelmed with to
to which attention would be directed hereafter. For
business. If, on the other hand, he considers that he incurs instance, the Commissiariat branch might require alteration.
was ° not sure that•it would not be necessary altogether
a mere technical responsibility, all the evils of the presentbut, before ad-
di vision of authority will be practically continued, the busi- tHoerevisethat branch of the public service ;
ness will be conducted mostunsatisfactorily, and there will vising any
such alteration of as .old office,found for
consideration, and if it were found
not be that unity of direction which is desirable. In my would require ample
advantage of the public service to make an
would be
opinion it is absolutely impossible to carry on the depart- the the question
went of the Commissariat without giving it some
effected. Then, again,
the
Medical.
Smith, upon
ostensible head—a person of authority, who shall be respon- immediatelyetit
eq ired considerable attention.
Died somewhat too
hehad no hesitation in saying that an alteration would
Depart.
Bible in the eye of the public for the administration of the
Palle administration
mho department. No doubt the Minister for War will have
swevemre a censure, had now retired from .
consequence of
health, in the power of giving directions with reference to that de- required
eumast say
of that department, broken in
upon to make dur-
partment, and on some occasions he may test the accuracy
the exertions which he had been called
the public had
the appointment of his sue-
of the statements made to him, and look into the details. .
last 12 months; and in
ld be introduced into the
the mg thets wou
Indeed I consider that no one can possibly conduct
various improvemen
ent. (Hear) There were also
business of the public well unless he occasionally looks into cessor . .
the administration of the departm.
ts in w h
Inc
alteration and improve.
the minutest details of his department, and ascertains
much
other civil departmen , to which every attention would
conduct of those who administer it. I question very
meat were requ ,
ired an,
of the noble earl, allusion was made
office of Secretary at VG ar to that m h each
the policy of annexing the o
paid. In the speech t r-Goneral of the Ordnance, and
be a violation of be ,
of the Mas e
of Minister for War. It seems to me to
to the services
mpressed upon the Government the necessity
principle, because a Minister for War incurs expenditure,
the noble
earl i•- , that high officer in the Cabinet as a nit-
' and the Secretary at War has hitherto managed the finances
in future of harelkaw.,
with the exception of Lord Angle-
, of the army, audit has been his duty to control expenditure.
tnand
litary
asBistAef'anmure) did not believe that, for the last
Now, to give tothe same person the power of (-arm. i
.g
en
sea, he (Lord
a 111 sate of the Ordnance had had
. to be a contradiction
of controlling expenditure seemsSO or 40 years,..
Cabinet. [The Earl of Ellenborough--" T
nits. he
to injurious
fail to lead
seat in the .
The Duke of Principle which can hardly
that the Secretary for War should !' of Wellington.l Wellington had eer-
Dubepossessed a seat. in the Cabinet, but not
It may be quite right
Secretary
.._
of controlling and overruling the
~ tunly as Master.
of the Ordnance • and, happily,for
have the power
always a very great advantage
1 General
~ many years
at War, but there is
it is to make representations,
iast, the occasions had been but rare when the Govern-
having an officer whose duty
he l s but let bins 1
moot required the advice of that officer,
for -War strike as p ease ,
ni h 'Us agreed .tl. V . At the same
Let the Secretary
appears to me that, according
~. time, equiwi I. .ae noble earl that, if a military
hear first ; and it certainly
ll be no to make repi
officer ceuld be found who would h • '
there wi no o . .
El, eard to. e willing to arrange
to the present proposal,
army. Wi."- le`, I - himself with the political part of
the finances of the
that oepai - 3' the day, and was at the
4;
sentations as to
the time when welling. same ame capable of coneuetine
the Ordnance, I recollect
the Duke of
military office itwould be the'- 1 t.
,i. u les of a high
under the control of
lenin-Chief was . , of _advantage te the public
anent was
present Comment
3of servie 3to place that or •
to and when the
o alio') of the Duk,
t.
with
..- ucer in the closest possible con-
Clue'rk of the Ordnance, and the
that.Pno department of the nec :on the Government. (Hear, hoar.) With re-
Wellington at that time
.wads
and
that in no oiler de- 1 fereuce to what had fallen from his noble friend (Lord
State was so well organise
partment was businessell conducted. I have no 1 Grey), he felt bound to say.that there were several points
noble nuke and my noble friend were in which ho differed from his noble friend. His noble
so,w
doubt that while the admirably conducted, and I 1, friend went much much further in military reform than
. .
at that department it was board framed 'he
which thatwaswas , did, fur he (Lord Panuiure) could not believe that
it
pauc_rle upon.
think the i i
to the pi inciple upon which the ' wauld bat all (1-the Commander-la-
superior e a txpe rent to plaice
to the last degree
is framed, because it gave authority to Chief, as head of the under the control of a civilian.
army,
Board of Admiralty
there was really no difficulty and also by
hear)—and
the chief—(hear,
the abolition given to the
tang the business. I object to
in transacting
dministration
of Master-General of the Ordnance upon two heads of the different branches of military
office
I think are worthy • and should b© embodied
both of which the serious ' should be distinct and precise,
ble of the house, he
grounds,Consideration of your lordships and of the public. In the \ some document to be laid upon thlotna to accede to that re-
first place, I object to placing the whole patronage of the could not have the smallest otject!
necessary that the
army in the hands of one man, so that no gentleman in uest. (Hear, hear.) It NI • •
.0 highly
what their duties
England will be able to .
obtain
for his son admission to any public officerashould fu yll understand
~ se the information de-
branch of the military service without going to one inch- were to be • arid, as •°"°- possible, Id be laid upon the table.
sidnal. (Hear, hear.) I think that would. be practically- sired by their lordships wen -
.
a very objectionable arrangement. I think (Hear, b r )
another great ea . LENBOROUGH observed that, since a
practical objection to the change is this :—D i' the The Earl of EL
adverted to the liubject of a civilian_being
life of the Duke of Wellington it was not u ing .
d had
noble l at sill mom* or
_. .