The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-15 00:00:00

THE SUN", LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 15, 1855.

of the Government upon the subject of military reform.
(A laugh.) I cannot, however, giVe her Majesty's Minis-
ters much credit, for the zeal which they have for the last
few days exhibited in connection with the subject, inas-
much as I think they have been much quickened into
action by the hints which they lately received. (Hear,
hear.) I have a great respect for the deference which they
have shown to public opinion, but I trust that they will
carry that deference to a somewhat mare considerable ex-
tent than was manifested by the announcement of the
noble viscount at the head of the Government in the other
House of Parliament. I entertain some doubts with
respect to the wisdom and the prudence of making such a
change with regard to the Ordnance Department as is pro-
posed, more especially unless the machinery which is to
be called into action with that change is well arranged.
I hail the proposition, however, as an evidence of increased
activity upon the part of her Majesty's Ministers, and
of deference to the well-expressed feelings of growing dis-
satisfaction and discontent which prevail throughout the
country. (Hear, hear.) But, at the same time, I must
say that in my opinion that increased deference to public
opinion and that increased activity upon the part of the
Government have not been a little stimulated, not only
by What has occurred out of doors, but by the hint
which the resolutions of my noble friend near me con-
vey. (Hear, hear.) One word more before I sit down.
The noble earl opposite has referred to the probable effect
of the adoption of these resolutions upon the Government.
He says he thinks that nothing can be more unsatisfactory
than constant changes of government, and says that fre-
quent alterations of policy are a great evil to the country.
I am of the same opinion ; but I must add, that I wish
the noble earl and those who act with him had taken, at
the close of the year 1852, similar views upon that subject
to which they now give expression. (Hear, and a laugh.)
I am sure they will do those who sit upon this side of the
house the justice to consider that, however agreeable the
position which her Majesty's ministers, as a general rule,
occupy, may be, the recent position of affairs renders the
task of endeavouring to discharge the various functions of
the public service one which any man would desire to be
spared. I beg to say—although I cannot deny that the
motion under which the present government has conducted
the operations connected with the war—l beg to say, and
I do so with the utmost sincerity, that I should very much
regret that the consequence of the success of the motion
should be the imposition upon noble lords sitting upon this
side of the house of the responsibility of administering the
affairs of the country at a moment so critical as the pre-
sent. Ido not admit, however, that the position of affairs
now is precisely the same as it was when I myself, from a
sense of public duty, was called upon ;to decline that re-
sponsibility of forming a government with which her
Majesty was graciously pleased to entrust me. In the first
place, there were then negotiations pending of the utmost
delicacy and perplexity; and to interfere with the pro-
gress of these negotiations by any change of Government
might have been productive of the most serious conse-
quences. On public grounds, therefore, a complete change
in the administration at the time of which I speak would
undoubtedly involve much inconvenience, and would be
exceedingly dangerous to the country. It also happened
that the noble viscount now at the head of the Govern-
ment enjoyed at that time the advantage of great
prestige throughout the country, and he, of all men,
was then deemed to be the best qualified of any of our
statesmen to conduct the public affairs With vigour,
firmness, decision, and energy. That feeling prevailed to
such an extent that I am perfectly confident that no admi-
nistration could be formed in February last of which the
noble viscount was not a member, which would not be ac-
cused of having kept out of office that man in the country
who was the most competent to be at the head of affairs.
I hope it is not being disrespectful to the noble viscount to
say that the prestige to which I have referred has since
considerably diminished, and that the warmth and fervour
of that admiration which the country entertained for him
have fallen down, if not to zero, at all events to a tempera-
ture much lower than that at which they some time' since
stood. (Hear, and a laugh.) I am not sure that if the
country was now to lose his services it would be inclined
to regard that loss as irreparable, or that without hisaid it
would be impossible that the business of the public service
could be efficiently conducted. (Hear, and laughter.) But
the noble earl opposite says, " we do not mind the effect of
those resolutions so far as the Government is concerned,
but just consider the effect which they are calculated to
produce upon foreign countries." The noble earl seems to
imagine that the consequence of the success of my noble ,
friend's motion will be that foreign nations will be brought
to look upon England as possessing no great resources for
the prosecution of the war ; that encouragement will be
afforded to the peace party in France ; that that country
would bo rendered indisposed to continue her alliance with
us, and that Russia would gain confidence when she be-
came aware of how we ourselves were inclined to disparage
the means at our disposal. Ido not exactly know what
the noble earl supposes the consequences would be in the
case of Austria, but Prussia he appeared to think would
avail herself of" the passing of these resolutions to take a
course inconsistent with our interests. The noble earl
has abstained, however, from pointing out 'a single word
in these resolutions which could make the impression or
bear out the views which he has represented to the
house. France, my lords, we recognise with the highest
gratification as our ally. The perfect understanding
which selesiats between her and this country we hold to
be fraught with advantages, not alone to us, but to the
future interests of other nations. The noble earl com-
mitted a great mistake when he says that by these resoln-
tions we seek to disparage the resources of England. We
do not do that, my lords ; we seek to disparage only the
manner in which those resources have been husbanded and
applied. (Hear, hear.) We draw a distinction between
England and her Majesty's ministers. (Hear, hear.) And
if, by disparaging the conduct of the latter, we can incite
them to the display of fresh energy and activity in the
future conduct of the war, we need not for a moment ap-
prehend that the consequence will be that our friendly re-
lations with any great power will thereby be in the smallest
degree interfered. (Hear, hear.) It is my lords, because
I hold that—as the noble lord had said--the greater por-
tion of these resolutions consists of truisms which cannot
be controverted—truisms which it is absolutely necessary
to place upon record upon the solemn declaration of the
parliament of this country—embodying our determination
to prosecute the war with all the energy in our power and
to adhere to our alliance with France—it is, I repeat, be-
cause I hold that these resolutionsgive expression to those
sentiments, and because they declare your lordships'
opinions, announced in this house, to be in conformity
with the just feelings of your fellow-subjects, that I give
my support to the motion which has been made by my
noble friend. Whether he succeeds or does not, in carry-
ing these resolutions, I rejoice that while we, the members
of the great Conservative party, are anxious to maintain
the institutions of this country, we do not set at nought
the, manifestation of public feeling, but that, while de-
sirous of co-operating with that feeling to the fullest extent
to which we can go, wo do not seek to implicate ourselves
in the extravagances into which it is sometimes betrayed.
(Cheers )
The Duke of NEWCASTLE, who at the commence-
ment of his speech was very imperfectly heard, in con-
sequence of the noise occasioned by a number of peers
quitting the house, said,—lt appears to me that the rea-
sons which have been assigned by the noble earl who
last addressed the house for supporting these resolu-
tions are so unsound that they will fail in inducing
many of your lordships who usually act with the noble
earl from giving the resolutions that assent which he is
prepared to give to them. The noble earl said that, al-
though ho must admit the resolutions did, in some sense,
bear the construction of a vote of censure upon the Go-
'ernment, he would feel deep regret if they should have
the effect of displacing the Government from.office. Now,
I must contend that, if these are the opinions of the noble
earl, he ought not to support the resolutions. If the two
noble earls opposite believe conscientiously that, by the
displacement of the present Government from office, and
by themselves assuming—by the grace and favour of the
Sovereign—the management of public affairs, they would
be able to conduct the war with increased energy, and so
to promote the public welfare, I think they would be per-
fectly justified in bringing forward and supporting these
resolutions • but I must say that if the motion is brought
forward, not' with the view of displacing the Government,
but of rendering what some noble lord asserts to be a weak
Government still weaker, it is not a course worthy of the
Peers of England at a moment like the present. Unless
the object is to displace the Government, I see no patriotic
grounds for supporting the resolutions. The noble earl
eo
rmn emseunrt prise
who thhaavte tshpeo
kt
ewno
didm e
nmobte
er
ns
toefr hi
netro Ma
nay-
must have been evident to the noble earl that those noble
jedexesliaryie'lssesdGedodvesfence of the conduct of the war • but I think it
lords did not enter into such a defence because no case
had been set up on the other side which it was necessary
for them to answer. Accustomed as I have been, not
merely Fiuce I have had a seat in this house, but for many
years previously, to listen with the greatest interest to the
speeches of my noble friend who brought forward those
resolutions, I must say that I never heard any speech
of his which seemed to me so deficient in strength as that
to which I listened this evening. It appeared to me to be
entirely defective with regard to all those great attributes
which distinguish his speeches. The noble earl did not
bring forward in his usual concise and consecutive order
such facts as he is accustomed to place before the
house, nor did he state to the houstz those clear and
logical deductions which on former occasions he has ad-
duced from the facts he has brought forward. Having
listened attentively to the noble earl, and to my noble and
gallant friend who spoke at considerable length, I must
say that, with the exception of the anecdotes which my
noble friend narrated, and one of which I may observe
was utterly and entirely inaccurate—(a laugh)—l am un-
able to fix upon anything tangible in their speeches. Nor
do I think the noble earl who last spoke has materially
improved the case as it was left by his predecessors. The
noble eat] has occupied the greater part of his speech in
referring to the doctrines of that association which has yet
to be formed, and of which he has professed himself in
somewhat hesitating terms a disciple, though certainly to
a more limited extent than the noble earl who brought
forward the resolutions ; but, beyond this, he seems to me
to have confined himself to one single point—the policy of
the expedition to the Crimea. I had hoped that I might
have been spared the necessity of alluding to any matter
personal to myself, but a noble earl opposite stated, cer-
tainly in terms of very great courtesy and kindness, that
be could not agree in approving what has been called my
"commendable ambition" in taking upon myself the ma-
nagement of the War Department. I will not on this
occasion go over that painful ground, but I may remind
the noble earl and the house that in the month of February
I commented upon those very words, and I stated expli-
citly to the house—and my statement has never been con-
troverted—the precise circumstances under which I as-
sumed the office. The noble earl has laid considerable
stress upon the point that the management of the war was
placed in my hands, I being a civilian,—as if it had not
been, I may say, a constitutional doerine in this country
that the management of the War Department should be
in the hands of h civilian. At any rate, that has been
the invariable practice. While the Commander-in-Chief
of the army is of course a military man, the Secretary of
State has invariably been a civilian. But the noble earl
maintained, this being the case, that I ought to have had
the assistance of competent military men. Now, no one
has more readily expressed concurrence in that sen-
timent, both in this house and elsewhere, than myself. It
must be remembered, however, that we have to consider
not merely who shall occupy military offices in this country,
but who shall command your army in the Crimea. lam
sure my noble friend the Commander-in-Chief will bear
me out when I say that for a long time I hesitated to con-
cur in the recommendation that my deeply-lamented friend
Sir G. Cathcart should be appointed to a command in the
Crimea. And why? Because I felt it of the utmost possible
importance to me that I should have the advice and assis-
tance of such a man at home. At the same time, as it was
the greatest- possible object that Lord Raglan should have
his aid in the Crimea in the command of a division, I felt
•it to be my duty, upon a balance of arguments, to place
him at Lord _Raglan's disposal. The noble earl went on to
1 say that the Ordnance Department was left in a most ineffi-

I cient state. The noble earl is not quite correct, however,
in stating that the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was
left without the powers which the Master-General possessed.
I am certain that he was appointed under the impression
that he would have precisely the same powers which Lord
Raglan had, and, if any of his powers should prove defi-
cient, that they should be made up by the assistance which
the Government would render him. The noble earl also
commented upon the appointment of Mr. Monsen to the
office of Clark to the Ordnance, and remarked upon the
circumstance of his change of religion, as if that had any-
thing whatever to do with his suitablenei3s for the office.
I cannot see what it has to do with it, and, for myself, I
should just as much consider that it fitted a person for
,the post as that it disqualified him. Now, with referenceto
myself, I wish to say that neither in this house nor any-
where else will I accept any praise for assiduity and labour.
Assiduity and labour are the duty of every man who under-
takes an office in the Government; and I do nothing but
my duty in bestowing every portion of my time to the exe-
cution of my duty; and if the noble earl can substantiate
that in the performance of those duties I stood in the way
of others who could have execribril them mach better and
that, in fact, I was a bad administrator of the office which I
held, then I say that no labour or assiduity. which I be-
stowed should bo viewed as a makeweight for any defi-
ciency of which I might have been guilty. (Hear, hear. )
The noble earl said that we ought never to have under-
taken the expedition to the Crimea, if, having undertaken
it, we had not taken precautions to render oar proceedings
effective. That opinion of the impolicy of going to the
Crimea is one, however, which has arisen out of the cir-
cumstances of the case, and not from any feeling which
was formed at the time. I appeal to your lordships whe-
ther, when Parliament met in December, we heard any-
thing of the impolicy of that expedition to the Crimea?
(Hear, hear.) What was the attack which the noble earl
made upon us then ? It was that we had-not from the
commencement of the war formed our plan, and that the
Crimea was an after thought, taken up at Varna when
the siege of Silistria was raised. That it was which formed
one of the principal points of his accusation against the
Government at that time ; and it is only now, when it is
thought that the expedition may not be attended with
success, that the noble earl and others becomes° wise after
the fact. (Hear, hear.) It is not fair, then, for the noble
earl, after his organs of the press spoke of impeaching the
Government for not undertaking it before, to turn round
upon us now, and to state that the expedition was im-
politic because it had not been attended with success. If
the noble earl can substantiate that when the expedition
was undertaken there was no providence, no means for
accomplishing the object in view, he would establish a
case against the Government. But is that sot The noble
earl said that in my evidence before the committee I stated
that we expected to take Sebastopol by a coup de main,
and that I did not contemplate a siege. The noble earl is
not correct in his version of my evidence. What I said
was, that I expected to be in possession of Sebastopol long
before it would be necessary for the army to go into win-
ter quarters. So far from not contemplating a siege and
not making provisions for it, two effective and complete
battering trains were sent out, and were in Lord Raglan's
possession when he undertook the expedition ; and from
the very first every effort was made to provide the army
with the means of carrying on a siege. (Hear.) The
noble lord says that we made no provision for the com-
forts of the men - that we sent out no huts and no warm
clothing. Undoubtedly, the huts were not ordered until
after it became evident that the place would not be
taken except by a long siege • but I must contradict the
statement that no warm clothing was provided for
the army. So early as the month of August a large
quantity of woollen clothing of every description, addi-
tional warm clothing, both under and upper, extra great-
coats to go over the ordinary greatcoats, and a variety of
things of that description to an enormous amount, were
sent out—a large portion of them before we heard of the re-
sult of the siege. But if the noble earl means that we did
not send out in the middle of summer that large quantity
of sheepskins and furs which we sent out subsequently, un-
doubtedly the noble earl is correct. It is incorrect and
most unfair towards me to represent that I have ever al-
lowed to drop from me in conversation, much less in any
speech in Parliament, or in any public capacity, one word
derogatory to the character of any officer in that army.
(Hear.) I have never thrown discredit upon any officer,
least of all upon my noble and gallant friend whoholds the
chief command in the Crimea. The noble earl says the
Government is to blame for not making the railway sooner,
and to support the charge he refers to the answer of Sir
John Burgoyne, given before tho Sebastopol Committee,
to what I must term a silly question—whether it would
not have been a great advantage 'to have had the railway
in October. Of course, Sir John Burgoyne said it would.
It would have been a great advantage if we had found a
railway already there. It would have been a great advan-
tage if we had had a railway all the way, and other things
equally impossible would as certainly have been advanta-
geous. Remember where this railway is applicable. From
Balaklava to Sebastopol. And what was the intention
when the troops landed at Old Fort? It was agreed by
the generals and by the Government that Seastopol
should be attacked on the north side, and it was only
after the Battle of the Alma that Lord Raglan and
General St. Arnaud determined on the flank march
which led to Balaklava, and subsequently to our
laying siege to the south Bide of Sebastopol. Is not
this a specimen of how accusations are cast upon those
who have the management of the war? (Hear.) And
when the noble earl says the railway might as well have
been sent in the month of October 'as in the month of
April, I beg he will recollect that I sent ar Sir M. Peto
at the end of November, and that the railway was sent out
in the beginning of December. (Cheers.) The noble earl
who brought forward his motion condemned the Govern-
ment for not being in a position to move the army at once
when it landed at Varna. The for land trans-
port requires a considerable time, and I am convinced if,
at the commencement of the war, it had been proposed to
the Hohse of Commons to organise the transport corps
which I had the honour of providing through the instru-
mentality of that gallant officer ColonelM9Slurdo' it would
have been laughed at as an extravagant and absurd,
though perhaps it would have been the wisest and most
judicious, step that could have been taken. (Hear, hear.)
When the army moved to Varna, on the special requisi-
tion of Omer Pacha, at the very earliest possible moment,
before all the troops had arrived at Scutari from England,
earl does not maintain that the army
it is atno uen.d.obul te
tehde fact a
tot t
ande
nweeer ef
rnoomt sufficient
a ani-
mals
os
ri a . The noble
should have remained at Scutari, but approves the order
to move from Scutari to Varna. That advance to Varna
was made with a double object—to give a moral as well as
a material assistance to Omer Pacha, and I have no hesi-
tation in saying that it was one of the main causes of rais-
ing the siege of Silistris, although up to that time the
army had not become a moveable army. (Cheers.) Go-
vernments may have neglected to put the right men in the
right places, but no Government would recognise for one
moment the principle that any one but the best men should
be appointed, and every one would admit that the Go-
vernmentce which had appointed Unfit men to high office
had grossly neglected its duty. The noble earl who
opened, the e
ind
having debate
effected has laid (el
change
eblame
the com
upon the
ositi
the House of Commons. I think that complaint .is
to a certain extent correct, bat not in the particular
isar
point alluded to. A system has grown up
°
years which has acted most prejudicially in regard to
part
providing men fit for holding office. The greatestßeformefor
pon ?f
of our mercantile men refuse for two causes to undertake
offices of State ; the first is that they are unwilling
abandon their private career and deprive their families
ia s
of
the large and honourable gains they acquire ; the
second is that they are reluctant to leave duties
cations that are agreeable to them, seeing the growling vo-aand a
ten-
dency there is to heap obloquy upon every man ortaie
everyc
side of the house and of every party who may undertake
the discharge of public duties. There are numbers who
are perfectly qualified to take a part in the conduct of pub-
lie affairs, and I shall rejoice, whenever a general elec.
tion shall occur, to see a large increase in the number
of such men sent into the House of Commons. But
there is a growing practice among constituencies not
to look among men whom they know to be of proved qua-
lifications and character, but to look up to clubs and co-
teries in London, to recommend them men who are parti-
sans of ono body or another, and who sit and give a silent
vote for their party, instead' of doing honour to the con-
stituency which returns them. As long as constituencies
pursue this course, and apply one ,party
to the Carlton
Club and another to the Reform Club for members, so
long shall we have men of mediocrity prepared to give
silent and tacit votes instead of men whose minds are pre-
pared for the performance of great public duties, and from
whom a Minister might select the officers of his Govern-
ment. From that body alone the high political officers
must be selected. My lords, I hope that these discussions
will not lead men to think that we area beaten nation—
(cheers)—that we are incapable of the great deeds by which
our forefathers have distinguished themselves; that our
improved, but that in other respdcts we have deteriorated.
ravee' and the quality of our soldiers is
nothing of the kind. (Hear.) It may
we began the siege of Sebastopol- in Septem-
bbmeeyr,
said
laobi braverytrd I b
ultt:i.
h,slooking
at the position of the allied forces and
of the enemy, is it so unfavourable to us, and so fa-
vourable to him? (Hear, hear.) We have placed a
pressure on the internal organisation of Russia that is
beginning to tell. Russia is suffering severely from the
drain of men, and the feelings of the people towards
the Sovereign power are undergoing a change. Is it
not true that we have slopped the direct commerce of
Russia? that we have swept from the sea every ship that
she possessed? that her great vessels of war are either sunk
at Sebastopol or locked up or rotting in the harbours of
Cronstadt and Helaingfors ? We have effected a lodgment
on her shores, and by God's blessing we may soon be in a
position to dictate such a peace as will be alike honourable
to this country and will insure the attainment of those
great objects for which the war was undertaken. (Hear.)
The Marquis of CL ANRICARDE (who was greeted
With a general cry of " Question 1") said that if by any
misfortune these resolutions were carried that night the
most injurious effect would bo produced abroad • and he
therefore trusted that their lordships would reject by
a large majority.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY believed that the
present resolutions were brought forward with the view of
testing the strength of parties in that house, and had no
doubt that those who supported them did so with a desire
to change the Government. Under these circumstances,
while he wished it to be distinctly understood that he did
not rise as the advocate or one of the retainers of the noble
lord who held the office of Premier, at the same time he
felt that, the honour and dignity of the Crown and the de-
termination of the country to maintain its position as a
great empire being now concerned, it would have been a
dereliction of duty on his part to remain on the cross
benches. If their lordships would not show to the world
the example
i a of
momentousdistracted
crisis
counselsisis
of
and
our
support a Government which, under great difficulties and
great pressure, and also amid some exhibition of party
feeling, were endeavouring to do their duty to their coun-
try. Their lordships must be aware, from the public meet-
it nhet g s thatthe
publicwere mind beingh held
e in a
i n favour
disturbedadm i n iasut rd dangerousa tiver ef
state ; and was it likely that the views put forward by the
noble earl (Lord Ellenborough) and his friends that night
would at all satisfy the feeling out of doors on this ques-
tion? Could the noble lords opposite produce a Government
whose talent, ability, and experience would hold out to the
self
having wishede
confidence
n fit(ol seence well-consideredin th e abability
o reforms etfhoer mn
noble
ble introducedearl oi
country the hope that its affairs would be better conducted
in the present emergency than they were at present? He hi
fnsmitte-
an
The
hhei smseurpcipuoier teefraLAtoNcsaprroywouNtEt_holsererseefeferrmtsi
purpose
all the administrative departments of the State, but, noto
e
tory manner, be would oppose the present motion.saac-
whom,g som I
hhope, observations
ay mboeropertinhaintteodneteo
making
half hour, but most glad was I to give way to the noble mar-
quis,friend, although I cannot claim any • •
political relations with
pey theno
dsneol
the
ohslftee
him. I was glad also to give way to my
nwobcialtellhin
noble duke on the bench below me, much more able, and
much more entitled than myself to give explanations upon
the particular acts connected with the departments over
which he for some time presided, and for every one of which

acts, I am glad to say, I myself bear an humble share of Go-
vernment responsibility with him—(cheers)—and, I will add,
glad am Ito be responsible with him. (Hear, hear.) My
lords, the noble earl who introduced these resolutions, and the
noble earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) who supported him,
appeared to take different views of the subject of administra-
tive reform. The latter noble earl disclaimed founding his
support of the resolutions upon that sentiment which is
abroad with respect to the administration of public affai 5,
and which he thought it expedient, for the sake of the present
and future Governments, to resist. When he found it as-
serted in the resolutions, • not directly, but by insinuation,
that men ware selected in this country for public employment
with regard to other considerations than the• public service,
he must be allowed to ask what it meant ? Did it mean a
Charge If such a charge were brought against any Govern-
ment, no scruple with regard to men or principles ought to
deter any one from distinctly stating who the men were.
(Hear.) The noble earl, however, abstained from all particu-
lar mention of men in the course of his resolutions, although
he had not done so in the course of his speech. Throughout
the whole of the motion the noble lord had, in reference to
the motives which induced him to make it, alluded to one
man, and that man was Lord Palmerston. (A laugh.) Tho
noble earl had referred to some observations made 'by
the late Duke of Wellington with respect to Lord Palmerston,
in which the duke was represented as having said that he
would not fire large guns at small birds, and he (the noble
marquis) might say that Lord Palmerston did not think it
worth while, upon a recent occasion, to fire off his powder at
a great bird, although he possibly might have hit his man.
(Laughter.) The reason why our army in tho Crimea was
now in a perfect state of efficiency was, because there had
been sudcient time to revive it. From the period of the revo-
lution down to the present time, in every war in which we
had been engaged, the first year was unsuccessful, and often
unsuccessful to a degree infinitely greater than it had been in
the case of the present war. The noble marquis then refer-
red to the expedition which was sent by William 111. over to
Ireland under the Duke of Schomberg, and to the seven years'
war, the circumstances attending which bore out his assertion
with regard to the hardships suffered during the first year.
According to the noble earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) nei-
ther with a reform Parliament nor with an unreformed Par-
ment could any Government of this country hope to carry on
_ _

the affairs of the nation. He did not doubt the desire of the
noble lord to find out the best persons for the best places ;
but, with the fairest intentions, it was a popular error to sup-
pose there existed in this country a reservoir out of which
talent could be drawn at any time. Until noble lords opposite
could point out the persons who had been appointed from un-
fair motives, or from any other motive than fitness for their
employment, he should continue to think that his noble friend
had been actuated in making all their appointments by con-
siderations for the public good. Another reason why he ob-
jected to the proposed resolutions was, that they were likely
to create an impression in Europe that we were a defeated
country. That he wholly denied, and no circumstances bad
arisen to justify the terms, " general dissatisfaction," used in
the resolutions. The result of the war to the present tine had,
in fact, been to reduce Russia as a naval power to a most con-
temptible position—to render it, in fact, a nonentity as such,
and very greatly to destroy and ruin its trade. Was it net fair,
in considering the results of a war, to take into account the
losses of the enemy t If it was, it might be melancholy satis,
faction for us to know that the loss which Russia had sustained
was threefold that of the allies. If we had suffered from wapt
of clothing, transports,'&c., Russia had suffered tenfold more.
He (the noble marquis) held in his hand a paper containing
statistics of the very highest authority. The name of the
writer he would not state; but it appeared from the paper
referred to, that, a few days before the death of the Emperor
Nicholas, a return was made up, stating that 177,000 Rus-
siaus had died during the present war up to that date ; and
by a supplemental return, made some days afterwards, it ap-
peared that 70,000 more were added to the above list, making
a total loss of 247,000 men. The noble earl condemned in
general terms the conduct of the war—and the proposed re-
solutions were thus condemnatory of the French Government ;
for he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) , could assert that no step
had been taken in this war, or expedition planned, that had
not been, if not suggested, yet cordially concurred in, by our
invaluable ally. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) could not
find out from the speech of the noble earl opposite whether
or not he condemned Lord Raglan ; but as nothing was said
about it he presumed he did not wish to condemn him. He
(the noble marquis) was glad of it, for to Lord Raglan we
principally owed the warm attachment and cordial alliance
which had sprung up, and through the most trying circum-
stances continued to exist between ourselves and our allies.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that he should, in re-
ply, only address himself to two observations which had been
made in the course of the discussion—the one by the noble
marquis who hadjust sat down, the other by the noble duke op-
posite (the Duke of Newcastle). He could not allow the noble
marquis to say that these resolutions were to the effect that

this country was a defeated country. He wholly denied that
such was the case. The troops of this country had obtained the
greatest glory by their conduct at the battles of Alma and In-
kerman, and by the magnificent attack of the cavalry at Bala-
klava. But what he (the Earl of Ellenborough) did say was, that
they had been deprived of the advantages of victory by the man-
ner in whiCh the Government was carrying on the war, and

that, as it was now conducted, it was impossible for the
troops to gain a decisive success. With reference to what had
fallen from the noble duke opposite, to the effect that the
house originally made no objection to the expedition to Se-
bastopol, he (the Earl of Ellenborough) must say that such
was not the true facts of the case. That expedition was not
known until the sth of August, when they were all out of
town. He wrote, however, to the noble earl the President of
the Council, and stated fully the nature of his objections to
the expedition ; and the noble earl told him that he had cir-
culated his letter amone, his colleagues. (Heavy hear.) The
Government was therefore perfectly aware of his opinions, and
the only regret which he felt was, that he had not returned
to town to enforce them more strongly upon the Government.
After a few words in explanation from the ,Duke of NEW-
CASTLE, which were inaudible in the gallery,
Their lordships then divided, when the numbers were •
Content, present 7l

„ . . proxies

--- 71
115

Not content, present

proxies

-181

Majority against the resolutions... 110
The house then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
.-The Smuczna •took the chair at 4 o'clock.
- PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
—Banff, Macduff, and Tarriffßailway,Commercial-road,
Cork and Youghall Railway, Fibre Company, Leomin-
ster and Ledbury-road, Limerick and Castleconnel Rail-
way, Manchester Improvement, Renfrew Police and
Improvement, South Wales Railway (Consolidation),
Swansea Docks, and Waterford and Limerick Railway.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
read a third time :—Cromford and High Peak Railway ;
Kingston-upon-Hull, Hussle, and Ferribly-road ; New-
town and Oswestry Railway, St. Helen's Improvement,
Ayr Harbour, and Weston super Mare Gas.

PETITIONS.
Petitions wera presented by Sir Joshua Walms-
ley from Protestant Dissenters of Leicester, for the
abolition of church rates ; by Mr. Grogan, from a parish
in Dublin, against the Maynooth grant : by Lord New-
port, two petitions from Shropshire, for the
abolition of church rates ; by Mr. Hadfield,
1G petitions from Chesterfield and other places in favour
of the abolition of church rates ; by Mr, Cobden, several
petitions from Doncaster, and other places in Yorkshire,
for the abolition of church rates ; by Mr. A. Pellatt,
seven petitions from Essex with the same prayer.

THE BOARD OF HEALTH.
Lord R. GROSVENOR asked the President of the
Board of Health whether forms were issued to the
legally qualified medical pra7titiouers of the metropolis
last year, inviting them to fill them up, in
order to exhibit the result of the various methods
adopted by them. for the treatment of cholera ;
whether, when those forms were returned, the Medical
Council of the Board of Health refused to take cogni-
sance of any of them, or of any returns of a like nature
made by the legally qualified medical officers of any
hospital, and, if so, for what reason ? And, if any cor-
respondence had taken place between the General Board of
Health and any persons complaining of omissions in the
report issued by the board, as to the results of cholera
treatment ; and, if so, whether he had any objection to
lay it upon the table of the house ?

Sir B. RALL said after he accepted office be appointed
a medical council to assist him. They met for
the first time on the 6th September, and forms were
sent round to all qualified medical practitioner?, but
afterwards he was informed that some of them had not
sent full reports as to those who followed the homoeopathic
system. He could have no objection whatever to lay
the returns on the table.

BURIAL GROUNDS AT GRANTHAM.
Lori W. GRAHAM asked the Secretary of State
for the 11-nne Department on what grounds be had re-
fused to comply with the request of the parishioners of
Grantham, that the right of interment in existing vaults
in the parish church should be continued to the proprie-
tors of the said vaults, the representation for closing the
burial ground not having yet been taken into considera-
tion by the Privy Council ?
Sir G. GREY said until the representation of the
Secretary of State was taken into consideration by the
Council no steps could be taken in such matters. With
regard to Grantham, he did not think himself justified
in departing from the recommendation of the medical
inspectors.

THE VIENNA NEGOTIATIONS.
Mr. M. GIBSON wished to know if the noble lord at
the head of the Government intended to name any day
for discussing the papers laid on the table relative to the
Vienna negotiations ?
Mr. LAYARD said before the question was answered
he wished to suggest to the noble lord that he should
bring forward his resolutions on Friday or Monday.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government had
several measures of importance in progress. There
were the remaining votes of supply, and two or three bills
of pressing urgency, and he thought it very unreason-
able that gentlemen who could give notice for any day
of their motions should expect Government to put off
their measures. He was sure his right honourable
friend (Mr. Gibson) could have no difficulty in doing
so, and as for the honourable member for Aylesbury,
(Mr. Layard) he must remind him that he offered him a
day—(hear)—and an offer once refused could not be re-
newed. But at the same time the forms of the house
did give hon. members a fair opportunity of bringing
such motions forward.
Mr. DISRAELI apprehended it would be really im-
possible for the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gibson) to
bring forward his motion for an addressto_at purpose.
her Majesty
unless the Government gave a day f
Now he (Mr. Disraeli) begged to calltheor thheattednitdionneotf
the house to the circumstahce that
find any precedent, when negotiations
laid
tionshaupen dternthiie-
nated, and the papers
had
himself had not g
notice to bring beforeiven
table, that the Minister
notice
house the subject of those
_
h
papers, and the conduct utctof the
negotiations
now wished to k_t_
eernoblelordif hedid ;
notan dfehee
as l
bound to do so ? (11
Lord PALMERSTON said ho bad no wish to throw
impediment in the way of hon. members who wished
atonybin forward motions or to take the sense of the
house on any matters of a very pressing nature,' and it
would be in the power of any hon. member who had
any important questions to bring forward to do so.
It was impossible to answer those questions off-hand
without notice, but he could assure the right