The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING MARC

impulse, and it, was open that ground that he now objected
.to the •reckless erection of barracks. He reminded the
[
house of what occurred at the conclusion of the last war,
whee the barracks in this country were sold precipitately,
and lie believed the same reaction would now take place if '
this course were persevered in. He hoped it was not neces- '
sary for him to apologise for bringing this subject forward. i
Lord PANMURE said the noble earl need not have made ;
any apology whatever for having introduced this subject.
He had listened to his address with that interest which he I
always felt in everything that fell from his noble friend, ;
more especially because he believed that there was no indi-
vidual in that or the other House of Parliament who had 1
for so many years with so much zeal and assiduity, turned
his attention to the subject then before their lordships. He
should pass at once to the measure before the house. The
principal part of the speech of his noble friend would be an-
s wered by one short piece of information, namely, that with
reference to the construction of either barracks or bul-
warks, all that could be suspended, till he could lay before
their lordships the plans, had been directed to be sus-
pended. (Hear.) With reference to the several points
upon which his noble friend had touched, he could not
concur with him that he had condemned fairly the appli-
cation of the vast sums of money that bad been voted by
the House of Commons. The first was the fortifications
which we were about to erect for the defence of some of
our priueipal ports. Now, as to those fortifications, he
could not agree with his noble friend that this was not the
time. (Hear, hear.) As his noble friend stated, the time
would come when a • reaction would take place ; but lie
(Lord Pantnure) considered, as far as that observation
went, that we were moving in a right direction ; and
lie quite agreed, that it would rest upon any Govern-
ment who undertook it to be responsible that those
works were ;lone in the most approved manner, ac-
cording to the newest and most approved principles,
and in the most economical manner to be effective.
(Hear.) With reference to the barracks, his noble friend
thought the principle of collecting troops in one large bar-
rack, instead of scattering them in smaller barracks over
the country, was objectionable. He (Lord Panmure) en-
.tirely approved of the step we were now taking, and he be-
lieved, if it had been taken some 10 or 15 yea. e ago, we
should not now have to complain of the inadequacy of our
troops to undertake field operations, or to be so little ac-
customed, as they appeared to be, with the habits and
duties of a camp. 25,0001. did seem a large sum to be ex-
pended upon a barracks, but it was a barracks for 10,000
men. His noble friend said we had to rely entirely for
this information upon the Clerk to the Ordnance. He
(Lord Panneure) had inquired, and he fourd that an engi-
neer officer, of very considerable experience and reputa-
tion, had been entrusted with a message to Belgium to in-
spect a very large barracks there, with a vjew' before the
plans were adopted, to see all that had been done there.
Now, what were the objects of this barracks? It was to
Concentrate 10,000 men on a particular point, at which
point opportunities would be afforded for the exercising of
that force, consisting of infantry, cavalry, and artillery, in
all the operations of field exercise ; and seeing that the men
learnt the habits and duties of a camp, and giving that
large body of troops, during a time of peace, that prepara-
tion which would best adapt them for a time of war—(hear)
—that means might be adopted in this country for training
our men, without any one being able to point to those
faults which were recently pointed out. Those faults would
be remedied by the sad experience of the war ; but they
were faults which must not be allowed to occur again.
With reference to expenditure, he entirely concurred with
the noble earl that eve ought to consult the skill of those
great contractors tvho had made their names famous. He
could not see himself why barracks were to be built by
military nations alone, and he had yet to learn that it was
either prudence or wisdom te retain a corps of military
labourers and bricklayers to do that which the people of
this country could do much better. With respect to the
Ordnance Department, it was not his intention to go into
that subject at the present time. All he wished to say was
this, that while ho had given orders upon the one hand
that no new works which could be avoided should be un-
dertaken at the present time, so, on the other, he had en-
deavoured to be in a position—as he hoped he should be in
a few days—of laying before the house the manner in
which he proposed to alter the several establishments of
the army. (Hear.) He proposed to deal largely with the
Ordnance Department. He proposed to unite all the se-
veral departments of the army under the superintendence
and management of a departinent of war, and he trusted
to lay before their lordships such a scheme as would be ef-
fectual for that purpose, though, perhaps,it would not go so
far as his noble friend (Earl Grey) thought it ought to go.
(Hear.) With reference to hut barracks, he believed reasons
had arisen to show there was not a necessity for quarter-
ing a large army in this country, as, for that purpose, we
had more barracks than we required • but we had a large
force of militia embodied in this country. It was true, we
had legal means of quartering them—we might quarter
them in billets ; but ho did not know one more unpopular
act, or one more oppressive on: the part of the Government
or the Parliament, than quartering in billets so large a
force. (Hear.) It was his object to relieve as much as
possible the people of this country from the present system
of billeting. At that moment there was a great body of
militiamen embodied in this country—there were 44,00 d
effective men embodied—out of whom 10,000 were in bar-
racks, and 34,000 were in quarters. It was for the pur-
pose of taking these men out of quarters that these hut
barracks wore being erected, or quickly run up. He be-
lieved that they would be built in such a manner, and be
put into such a condition as that, with proper care being
taken of them, they would last for several years, but if they
should not be required, they might be disposed of in the
market with some advantage to the public service. He had
alluded to that point of his noble ft iend's speech, because
he wished to assure the public, on the one hand, that the
billeting system would be as speedily as possible lessened ;
and he wished to assure the officers of the militia, on the
other—who had the morality of their men at heart as much
as any officers of the regular regiments could have—that
their man weald be as speedily released from their present
position as possible—namely, their being -on billets. For
these observations he thought the house was indebted to
his noble friend (Earl Grey) for having brought this subject
before them. He would not follow him in the discussion
on the financial condition of the country; that would be
discussed on a future occasion. But he would repeat that
their lordships were under an obligation to the noble earl
for bringing the subject forward. (Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY entirely agreed with
the intentions of her Majesty's Government in regard to
their erecting barracks at Aldershot fur the purpose of
lodging the troops, be !ause it was not sufficient to spend
money in the enlistment and drilling of the soldiers alone
if they did not give them every opportunity of being
brigaded and disciplined, and being looked after as a regu-
lar army.
Earl FITZWILLIAM wished to know whether any in-
tentien existed in the minds of tho Government that it
would be desirable, during the peace which he treated
would soon be restored to them, to maintain a larger esta-
blishment than they bad had during the last long peace.
Earl GRANVILLE said it was the intention of toe
Government at the close of the war to give a more mili-
tary character to this country, though it was somewhat
premature to answer such a question.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said last year a large
manufacturing town would have been exposed to absolute
desolation if it had not received the assistance of the mill-
pomrl
lad
icei
eur ,
ftatohe
tat
uht
reti
hnwge iytdhi d
should,s
trrai we tisn,gi
no fw, thhi ec hs ( soldiers mili-
tary. It would, therefore, be absolutely necessary, in
anacwevs'ymfigrohmt take
either by arrangements with the
civil bodies who had the power of employing the troops,
or by legislation, have a uniform system of police capable
of protecting the public) peace.
Lord PANMURE was uuderstood to say that, in col-
lecting the 10,000 troops at Aldershot, care would be
aw Aldershotass
i e
taken that the large manufacturing towns should not be
withoutTheE alisl o
protection.
The
t,
ESMERE said the ca
had his entire approbation.
The bill was then read a second time.
Tno Exchequer Bills (17,183,0001.) Billmp t
as p
through committee.
Their lordships then adjourned at five minutes past 7
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
MASTERS IN THE NAVY.
Mr. LA-YARD asked if the arrangements of the Ad-
miralty for promoting masters in the navy for good ser-
vice were yet completed I
Admiral BERKELEY said the Admiralty had agreed
that the pay of masters should be increased according to
service.

justice to Scotlant or Ireland in this ,m4ter, jaut justiee
to England mustnot be lost s;ght of, and he hoped,
Vierefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would put a
stop to the prop►sed expenditure for the large scale
survey.
Mr. ELLIS, jun., said Scotland for the last six years
had been made thevictim of experiments in this matter ;
but the one-inch scale would be found the most econo-
mical and the most useful, and he called upon the house
to adopt it.
Mr: GLADSTONE said the manner in which this
subject had been treated was little creditable to our ad-
ministrat:ve systen, but the Government had done no-
thing yet that cold be binding in point of expense, and
it was now quite open to the house to determine the
final result, and fix the scale upon which the survey
should be made. There was one of two courses open to
the house—either they ought to go onwards beyond the
six-inch scale, or en back to the one-inch scale ; but if
they conceded the former to Scotland, depend upon it
the same demand vould be made for England and
The LORD ADVOCATE supported the 25-inch
scale, because be thought it the best adapted for all
practical purposes.
Mr. DUNLOP entreated the house not to prejudge
this question, but to wait until they had the materials
before them for deciding upon it.
Mr. BAIL LIE urged the necessity for arriving at a
final conclusion on this question.
After a few words from Capt. BOLDERO,
Lord SEYMOUR gave notice that on the second re-
solution in the repsrt which relates to the scientific de-
partment of the Ordnance, he should move that it be re-
duced by 53,0001., and the decision on that motion might
be taken as a decision upon the question of whether a
large or small scale should be adopted.
Mr. MONSELL pressed the noble lord not to reduce
the estimate, as it in no way pledged the. house as to
the scale to be adopted.
Mr. ELLICE, sen., on the other hand, hoped the
noble lord would adhere to his notice.

The subject then dropped, and the report was re-
ceived.

THE COLONIAL DEPART' NT.
On the motion that the Speaker leave the chair to go
into committee of supply,
Sir J. PAKINGTON observed that, as no othersuitable
opportunity appeared to offer for calling attention to the
state of the Colonial Department, he now rose for the pur-
r ose of doing so; and he must say that, in his opinion, the
extraordinary state of the Colonial Department, and the
state of the public business in connection with it, appeared
to him to be extremely unusual, unsatisfactory, and hardly
decorous. A noble lord in the other House of Parliament
had put a question upon the subject, the reply to which
was so unsatisfactory that he (Sir J. Pakington) felt it to
be his duty to renew the inquiry of the Government.
When the first question had been put to the Government,
the reply was that Lord John Russell would not be so long
away as was supposed, but he begged to remind the noble
lord at the head of the Government that neither the noble
lord who had made the inquiry in the first instance, nor
himself, had entertained auy supposition on the subject ;
but that, finding the Colonial Department without any
satisfactory Minister, they wished to know how long that
state of things was !Lily to continue. He had been given
to understand that Lord J. Russell was only to settle the
general principle of the treaty, and that he was not to
remain at Vienna until 'the details of it were finally
arranged. This appeared to him to be unsatisfactory, as
he understood that the general principle of the treaty had
been already laid down. He had been always of opinion
that the worst things for an ambassador to settle were the
details of a treaty ; and it seemed to him that the noble
lord, feeling the responsibility of two duties, was about to
return to England, to attend to the duties of the Colonial,
office, before he had settled the special business upon which
he bad been sent to ienna. He (Sir J. Pakington) be-

CHATHAM BARRACKS.
Mr. STAFFORD asked the Under-Secretary for War
whether it was the intention of the Government to
continue St. Mary's Casemated Barrack, Chatham, as a
receptacle for soldiers returned from the East ; and
whether it was intended to convert the whole, or any
additional portion, of Brompton barracks into an hospi-
tal for our sick and wounded soldiers ?

Roved that there never was a moment when it was of more
importance that there should be a responsible Minister at
Vienna; at the same time, he did not believe there was any
precedent for the course which had been adopted in sending
a Minister of the Crown, holding another important office,
to act as a Minister Plenipotentiary. It was true that Lord
Castlereagh had gone to Vienna, but he• was at the same
time Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ; and the busi-
ness which he had gone to transact was intimately con-
nected with the office which he held. He did not believe
that thereeh im wasp r
taaint aeonrecordef
going
gleft departmentof
so mach
y inceasstathn the Colonial-office
with-
out even an Under Secretary to answer questions in the
house. He was quite aware that the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Department had inti-
mated that he would give attention to colonial affairs;
but, without wishing to disparage the right hon. gentle-
man's abilities, he ventured to state that it was perfectly
impossible for any one person to conduct the affairs of two
such departments as the Colonial-office and the, Home-
office. The state of our colonial empire at this moment
was such as to require the whole attention of a responsible
Minister. They had heard that Moshesh, one of the most
powerful chiefs of South Africa, had given cause to the
Government for uneasiness. with respect to his conduct,
and they had also heard that there was cause of uneasiness
not only with regard to the Kaffir s' but also with respect
to the Fingoes, a tribe which had hitherto been dis-
tinguished for their loyalty and devotion to the British
Crowe. It was probable that those warlike tribes had
heard of the position in which this country stood in refe-
rence to Russia, and that the intelligence might, in some
degree, account for th, it recent movements. In the colony
of Victoria, also, acts of insurrection had occurred. Blood
had been shed, and there had bests a struggle between the
mixed population and her Majesty's troops, which had,
however, been subdued, by the vigour and decision of Sir
Charles Hothaus, the governor of the colony. It was use-
less, however, to deny that the state of the colony was very
critical. The Coneict Prevention Bill was also exciting
great attention on the part of the colonists of Victoria.
There was another pressing question which required the
attention of a Colonial Minister, and which ho hoped was
not to be hung up until the return of Lord John Russell—
he alluded to the bills for granting constitutions to the
colonies. (Hear.) The colonies had performed their part of
the centract with reference to these bills, and it was only
right and just that the Crown should now proceed with the
hills at once. Them was moreover scat caly a day that passed
that did not bring despatches to the Colonial-office from
some of the colonies. These 4f e.§patollos involved 'questions ,
of local int?rest—questions of individual right and justice
which it was absolutely necessary that • the Government
should be in a condition to pay immediate attention to.
The people of Newfoundland had made complaints against
their governor, and it was very much to be regretted that
the Colonial Minister was not prepared to inquire into the
case. When the people of this country found that the im-
portant duties of the Colonial-office were neglected, as he
had shown them to have been, they would be greatly dis-
satisfied ; but what would be the feelings of the colonies
themselves? (Hear.) Would they not feel that the prac-
tical suspension on the part of the Government of attention
to their affairs was very disrespectful to them ? He had
reason to believe that such was the light in which some of
the most• important of our colonies viewed the matter.
Almost every one of our colonies had ahewn an earnest de-
sire to give assistance to this country in the efforts which
she was making to resist the aggressions of Russia, and he
hoped that the noble lord at the head of the Government
would give them some assurance, more satisfactory than
had been given in the other House of Parliament, that
their affairs would be attended to by the Government. It
was true that they had been told, in the other Howie of
Parliament, that Lord J. Russell hoped to be able to return
to this country before Easter; but that statement was
made in a very vague manner, and, considering the nego-
tiations in which the noble lord was engaged, it was very
improbable that ho would bo able to return to this country
so early as Easter. But, even if he should, the delay which
had beau already occasioned by his absence would be one
that ought not to have been permitted. Unless the noble
viscount at the head of the Government could give the
house some more distinct assurance than had been already
given, it would become the duty of Parliament to inter-
fere in the matter.
Viscount PALMERSTON—Sir, I mast entirely deny
the assumption upon which the right hon. baronet has
founded his observations, viz., the assumption that colo-
nial matters are neglected, and that a slight has been placed
upon the important colonies of this country. The right
hon. baronet says that there should be somebody in Parlia-
ment responsible for what is done or not done with regard
to the colonies. Sir, there are several persons responsible.
My right hon. friend (Sir G. Grey) and myself are respon-
sible ; and, if the right hon. baronet, or any other member
of this house, thinks fit to bring forward any charge against
the Government with respect to the management ofcolo-
Dial affairs, we are perfectly ready to stand here in our
places and justify the course which has been pursued with
respect to the colonies. The right hon. baronet expresses
a very natural curiosity to know what is the particular.
course which my noble friend has been instructed to Pur-
sue with regard to the negotiations at Vienna. He wishes
to know what he is to insist upon, and how long he is to,
insist upon it—what he is to be satisfied with, and when
he is to come home ; but I am sorry to say that I am not
able, consistently with my public duty, to gratify the
very natural curiosity of tke right hon. baronet.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I made so such inquiries.
Viscount PALMERSTON—WeII, something very like
them. I can only say that my noble friend will act in con-
formity with the instructions which he has received, and
that we do not anticipate that his stay at Vienna will be
so protracted as the right hon. baronet expects it to be.
(Hear.) But, sir, the way in which this question has been
treated would lead one to think that there never had been
a case before in which a public department had been vacant
for some time. Now, the right hon. baronet himself in-
stanced a case in which a Secretary of State was for a very
long period absent from the country—that of the Secre-
taryship for Foreign Affairs, which was held by Lord Cas-
tlereagh when he was absent at Vienna and afterwards
Pal is. And cannot the right hon. baronet recollect the
period when one individual held almost all the offices of
3tate?—(hear)—when, from the middle of November till,
I think, the end of December or the beginning of January,
there really was not one person responsible for the conduct
of almost all the important offices. I think there was such
a period ; and I am in hopes that that period is fresh in
the memory of the right hon. baronet. I deny that any
inconvenience has been sustained by the colonies by the
absence of my noble friend. I deny that the colonial affairs
have been at all neglected. Any decision that has to be
taken will be taken upon the responsibility of my right
hon. friend, and if necessary, with the concurrence of his
colleagues; and wo stand here as responsible as if my noble
friend were in his place, perfectly ready to answer, if any
matter relating to the menageries:it of the colonies shall be
questioned by Cie right hon. baronet or any other peraou
in this house. (Hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY sail the right lion. baronet (Sir J.
Pakiugtou) had not prefer. ed any charge against the
Government with respect to the management of the
colonies, but he did charge the Government with
not having eppeinted some one whose sole duty it should
be to attend to the duties of the Colonial-office, in the
absence of the Colonial Secretary at Vienna. The right
hon. baronet had shown that this was D.llo:it important
and critical perie d with re,gardi, to oar coronies, end that
now, above all ether times, was it important that their
complaints should be attended to. Ile (Mr. Adderley) be-
lieved that the riots which had taken place in Victoria
would not have occurred if a liberal constitution had been
granted to that colony with all possible expedition, and he
entertained a similar opinion with regard to the Cape of
Good Hope. Canada had contributed most liberally to
the Patriotic Fund, and yet no thanks had been given to
thorn by the Government. Bat the Emperor of the French
had expressed his gratitude to the Canadians for the sum
which they had transmitted for the relief of the sick and
wounded French soldiers iu the Crimea. Canada had
offered to raise and support a body of volunteers to aid the
British army in the Crimea. No distinct answer had yet

Mr. PEEL was unable to answer either question, as
he was not aware of the changes referred to.

ORDNANCE SURVEY.
On the motion that the report on the Ordnance Eel

mates be agreed to,
Lord ELCHO called the attention of the house to the
present state of the Ordnance Survey of Scotland. At
the close of the last century it was thought that a one-
inch survey was quite sufficient to suit all purposes,
but in course of time a six-inch scale was substituted in
the case of Ireland for the one inch. In 1851 a committee
investigated the subject so far as Scotland was concerned,
and that committee reported that the old one inch to the
mile scale would be sufficient for Scotland ; but the
people of Scotland were dissatisfied, and they had since
nmmorialiseCi the Government to have the survey made
on a scale of 24 inches to the mile, a scale which has
been approved of by several eminent scientific
men although the Board of Ordnance were opposed to it.
The scientific and professional men of Scotland were then
polled upon the subject and they were required to state
which they preferred, n 6 or a 24 inch scale. Thirty de-
cided in favour of a 6 inch, and 120 in favour of a 24
inch scale. These same authorities were afterwards re-
quired to state which they should prefer to be adopted,
a twenty-four inch scale or a decimal scale,
giving 25 and a third inches to the mile. The majority
were in favour of the latter. Accordingly, in July,
1854, a Treasury ininute. was issued in favour of the
larger scale, and its cost was now being tested by con-
tract and piece work. In the meanwhile it had been
estimated that the survey of half of Scotland, which
would embrace the whole of the cultivated and improv-

able districts in the larger scale, would cost 498,0001.,
while the whole of Scotland on the nue•inch scale
would cost 114,0001., makinEr, a total of 612,0001. De-

duct from that total 90,0001., which had already been

expended in some of the works, and the cost of the sur-
vey %%inch Scatland mostly preferred would be 522,0001.
Lint SEYMOUR said this was a very important
question, because they were ca'ied upon to make a sur-
vey of Seotla‘ol that would render it of no use to the
public ; besides, they had insufficient ground to deter-
mine as to what would be the cost of the survey, and he
of jtTted to putting the nation to enormous expense when
the cheaper one-inch scale would satisfy all public pur-
poses. If private parties, such as railway or drainage
companies, required a large scale let them pay for it.
Colonel DUNNE said it would be very unadvisable
to resort to the larger scale, but he should certainly
prefer a four or six inch to a one inch scale, speaking
for military and ordnan2e purposes. rne one would
cost no more than the other.
Mr. COWAN doubted that; indeed he believed the
increased cost between the two would not be six times,
but thirty-six times, more. He thoroughly concurred in
the whole of what bad fallen from the noble lord the
member for Totnes.
Mr. RICH said it might be all very well to talk about

1055.

. ,
I _been given to that generous proposition and he be hived
; that; in the end, after having been referred from one tiblic
depaitment to another, it would be rejected. The ce (Mies
of Great Britain were never more loyal than at this mo-
ment, and it was of the utmost importance not to act as
if we slighted there, for a suspicion that we did so might
change their loyalty and affection into alienation and
hatre.
Sir G. GREY said the question under discussion appeared
to be whether such great public inconvenience had oc-
curred from the arrangements that had taken place during
the temporary -absence of Lord John Russell at Vienna,
... ,.
as to call for the interference of the house. He was per-
fectly ready to state that he felt himself utterly unable to
conduct permanently-the duties of the. Colonial-office as
well as those of the Home-office. (Hear.) He should re-
joice most sincerely if he were relieved from the responsi-
bility which had been thrown upon him for a short time
bv the absence of his noble friend at Vienna. But when
his noble friend intimated his willingness, at the request
of the noble lord at the head of the Government, to accept
the seals of the Colonial Department, it certainly appeared
to him (Sir G. Grey) that that acceptance was, under the
circumstances in which the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
was then placed, not an insult, but a cause of great satis-
faction to the colonies. Although by the acceptance of
office he (Sir G. Grey) felt that an additional responsibility
would be thrown upon him, yet he also felt that it was his
duty as a public man not to shrink from giving any assist-
ance which might be required, and which ho thought might
be conducive to the interests of the colonies. When the
right lion. gentleman said that the whole colonial business
of the office was at a stand-still, be must take leave to can-
tradict that statement altogether; and say he did not be-
lieve that, during the short interval which had already
elapsed, any particular inconvenience had taken place. He
would now proceed to deal withthe specificstaternents made
by the right hon. gentleman (SirJ. Pakington) as to the four
points on which inconvenience was said to have arisen.
The first was with regard to the Cape. From letters which
he had received from the governor of that colony, there was
too much reason to apprehend that the peace which had
been established between the colony and the Kaffirs was
one that could not be looked upon as permanent unless
measures were taken to consolidate the security of the
country. Yesterday week despatches arrived from the
Cape, stating that the, governor, from information he had
received, was about to set out for the froutior. Tho in-
telligence was of a conflicting, although of an alarming,
character ; but it was impossible to deny the state of that
colony was a critical one, and that prompt measures wore
necessary. The despatch iu question, however, asked for
no assistance from home, and it stated, that in no case
would the governor be necessitated to send to this country
for any additional force. The Government had given this
despatch their careful consideration, and had taken, with-
out any delay, the measures they thought necessary in
order to strengthen the hands of the governor. He (Sir G.
Grey) did net know what his noble friend (Lord J. Russell)
might have done if he had been here, but he did not be-
lieve that noble lord would have acted otherwise than the
Government had thought proper to act. The next point
to which the right hon. gentleman had adverted was as
as to the state of Victoria. What information had they
with regard to that colony? Not one single word had
reached the home Government from the governor with re-
gard to the disturbances referred to. It might have been
a very serious tumult; but, judging from the public prints,
he found that it had been suppressed in 20 minutes, and he
trusted the accounts the Government might yet receive
would show that nothing to justify the use of the term
"insurrection" had taken place, and that perfect peace and
tranquillity had been restored.. With regard to New-
foundland, he might state that he had himself settled the
.question which had been referred to, before he gave up the
seals of the Colonial-office, six weeks ago. He believed
there was one question pending with respect to an appli-
cation. made on the part of the Assembly in Newfoundland
to remove, the governor of that colony, who was appointed •
by the right hon. gentleman opposite (Sir J. Pakington) ;
and ho felt bound to say, with every respect for the right
hon. gentleman, that he did not think the removal of a
governor was a questien in which the Colonial Secretary
ought to enter into private communication with any pri-
vate gentleman coming from the colony. He was not
aware there was any question now pending which required
the decision of the Government. With regard to the con-
stitutional bills, he admitted that if he had continued in
office, he should, by this time, have been able to submit to
-the house a measure founded upon those bills. The right
hon. gentleman had said, that ho wrote a despatch upon
the subject more than two years ago, and yet the bills were
still in the hands of the Colonial-office, and that such
delay was likely to lead to much inconvenience and dissa-
tisfaction. What was the delay with which the right hon.
gentleman charged the Colonial Department ? He (Sir G.
Grey) found these three bills waiting for the decision of
the Government in the month of June last. One of them
had been received in May, three weeks or a month before
he took the seals of the Colonial-office. They required a
careful investigation, and were, therefore, referred to the
legal advisers of the Crown, who did not make their report
until sometime after the prorogation of Parliament. It
would hardly have been satisfactory to the colonies to have
had the bills dealt with at the end of the session in a hasty
and superficial spanner, and it was impossible, without the
assent of Parliament, for the Crown to give its assent to
those acts. When he was writing to the governors of these
colonies, it occurred to him (Sir George Grey) that the
course adopted by the colonies was a most inconvenient
one,,and he had taken occasion, in answering a despatch
'from the governor of Van Diemen's Land, to suggest
a mode by which the inconvenience might be avoided.
The view which he took was immediately adopted by
the Legislative Council, and the bill sent home was oue
that might be submitted at once for the assent of the.
' Crown, and might at once become law. He must re-
mind hon. gentlemen that it was vary easy to introduce a
bill into the house, but it was not so easy to insure full at-
tention to a bill, when every night was of importance to
enable the Government to pass the estimates, which were
so necessary for the prosecution of the war. He had al-
ready stated that ho had fully communicated with his noble
friend (Lard J. Russell), when he (Sir G: Grey) held the
sealsof the Colonial Department, with regard to these bills.
The subject was one which the noble lord had given great
attention to, 'and he did not think any delay would arise
from their being postponed until his noble friend's return.
He could not dofentl the present arrangement as a per-
manent cue, anduobody would more rejoice than he should
in being relieved from the responsibility which was now
thrown upon his hands.
.W. LO WE said that., from what the right hon. baronet
the member for Droitwich (SirJ. Pakington) had stated in
reference to the question of the constitution of the Austra-
lian colonies, he thought it might be inferred that that
right hon. gentleman had entered into a species of con-
tract with those colonies, and had given the house to un-
derstand that the measures to come before it were the le-
suit of such contract, and that their deliberations were to
be swayed by it. As he was most anxious that that con-
tract with the colonial legislature should not be carried out
—as he was anxious to remove the prejudice and impres-
sion which had been created by the right hon. gentleman,
and as this was a subject with which he (Mr. Lowe) was
necessarily , familiar, he would trespass on the house for a
short time while he explained the nature of that contract.
In 1850, it was the pleasure of the house, contrary to his
own opinion, to delegate to the Australian colonies the
powers of constituting an assembly, and framing their own
constitutions. Though he objected to that he did not think
the matter would have come to the present, he must say,
most disastrous State, had it not been for the right lou.
gentleman the member for Droitwich. In 1852, the right
hon. gentleman addressed a despatch to the Governor of
the Australian colonies, stating there was an impression in
favour of an upper house of legislature being nominated by
the Crown. The right hon. baronet expressed that opinion,
and he (Mr. Lowe) regretted to say further, that he so far
mishnderstood the Act of 18'0, and mistook his duty as
_ _

Colonial Minister, as actually to acid to that expression of
opinion that, if the colonies would consent to appoint such
nominated.houses of legislature, the right hon. gentleman
would give them up the dominion over their waste lauds.
Now, he asked the house, what possible interest had wo
except in seeing that those people governed themselves in
the manner which would best suit their own local in-
terests ? What good would this country derive, supposing
the right hon. geneleman should succeed in fixing upon the
colonists a nominal upper legislature, by the bribery of
these waste lands ? As knowing something of the colonies,
he, for one, protested against the House of Commons or
the Government being bound in any way by what was
done by the right hon. gentleman. What the right hon.
member did was against the policy of the Act of Parliament,
and against the duty of his office, and ought not many way
to bind them. Ho would beg the right hon. gentleman,
who held for a time the seals of the Colonial-office (Sir G.
Grey) to avoid the example that his predecessor had set
him, and in all things to deal with these questions in a
spirit of the utmost purity. Let the right hon. gentleman
look at the question merely as one of the will of the colo-
nists, and if he was satisfied that will had been sufficiently
expressed by the vote of the Legislature, let him carry it
out. Under the inducement of the right hon. baronet (Sir
J. Pakington) these colonies had sent home long bills, by
which they had given themselves various powers which
they had not hitherto possessed ; they had dealt with the
most minute questions of royal prerogative, they had given
full retiring salaries to public officers, and they had given
pledges and guarantees of a very dangerous nature to per-
sons who' were now in the occupation of 50 or 60 millions
of acres of waste lands. He entreated the house that they
would not bo persuaded by clamour, or by any declara-
tions of persons sent here by the colonies, so far as to for-
get their duty—as the Imperial Parliament of this empire
—to consent to pass in a lump 70 or SO clauses in the acts
set before them, merely because they had passed Before
the Colonial Legislature. He begged the right hon. gen-
tleman (Sir G. Grey) to avoid contracts with the govein-
ments of ourcolonies. What he gave, let him give freely.
He (Mr. Lowe) had ventured to speak in a tone of admo-
nition to the right hon. gentleman, but his own local ex-
perience of the subject must be his excuse. Bet he must
say that, unless they acted with great circumspection in
this matter, they would only he sowing the seeds of
endless confusion, and promoting bickerineos and disturb-
ances, or they must be ready to surrender their colonial
empire for ever.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he should take another occa.
sion to show that the hon. gentleman who had just sat
down tad formed an entirely erroneously opinion, and had
completely misunderstood his intention and his acts upon
the occasion to which reference had been msde.
Mr. J. MACGREGOR did not think that the negotia-
tions at Vienna would be brought to an end so soon as the
Government seemed to expect ; and this country and the
colonies might well be dissatisfied with the state of things
which Lord J. Russell's absence would produce in the
Colonial-office. The colonies would feel that their affairs
had been entrusted to the irresponsible management of a
few clerks in the Colonial-office, and they Would, no doubt,
come to the conclusion that they ought to insist on their
independence ofthe British Crown
Mr. J. G. PIIILLIMORE strongly protested against
the ticket of leave system ; but hoped that the system of
transportation would not be resorted to again, for it had
been condemned by rcasou and experience.
The subject then dropped ; and
Mr. EWARThaving stated in ,grealcr detail than on a
previous pieta the improvements whit!' have Leon recently
introduced into the school at Eton,
The house resolved itself into a coturnittec of supply upon
THE COMMISSARIAT E'iTIMATES.
Mr. PEEL, in submi ttinz the est iarttes to the conunittee,
said that they were about four tiitic.s r..s large as those of
last year, for instead of being 600,0001. they were this year
2,400,000/. That increase had been chiefly occasioned by
the war with Russia. About 325 persons were engaged in
she Crimea in providing food for the army there. The
wages of the men employed in the construction of the rail-
way from Balaklava to the camp would be about 50,0001.
if they should be employed for the whole of the year.
When the railway was completed, they could be most use-
fully employed in other services. These estimates would
provide for the food of 40,000 regular soldiers and of about
65,000 militia in the United King.lom. The rations which
was being at present, and had been for some time past,
served out to the army in the Crimea, was as follows :—To
each soldier per day, 11b, of salt meat, or 1, of fresh meat,