The National Register.
London, England, 1817-05-26 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

MONDAY, MAY 19.
Sir S. SHEPHERD, the new AttOrney Orneral, And Mr. Gif-
ford, the new Solicitor Geueral, took ti,e Goths and their

Sir. J. NrIVPORT brought up the It i,ll Savin% Banks Bill.
?Sir. HUSK ISSAS. obtained leave to bring in a Hill to triable
his Nlajesty's Commissioners Crown Lands to make a Road
from NJ illoank•row to the Penitentiary House, on Nit
'1 he We.tieilister Coal Meter's WU, was read a third time,
and
The Lottery Bill, after a renewed opposition, WAS read the
third time, amid passed.

THE COMPENSATION
On the second reading of the Bill, slier a speech from Sir
R. Ht run in opposition to it,
Mr. littot..4,:wsst rose.—His objection was to its systematic
and prospective sww, the Bill placing at the disposal of the
Crown about 42,0001. per annum, in addition to the Pension
List. It hail been said that the Crown, by abolishing these
offices, had been stripped of certain patronage. Now he wan
prepared to contend, that Bic aigh the Bill passed, the Crown
still had ample power of rewarding services. He was ready
to admit that there were meritorious persons on that list, whose
pensi•ans were not only an honour to themselves, hut also to
the country. This fund was increased by the grow ing produce.
attn. West India finial, to idiom 240,0001. he present Bill,
under these circion lance!, Might to he called the Pension
HAI, and not a Compensation dill. The Hon. Gentleman went
ass er the list of Sinecures,. and contended, that 110 far hem
others being conferred for meritorious services, they were
ton oft n the reverse. The I'i ivy Seal of Scotland was tilted
in a similar 'simmer. He wish( al to know what had come over
the age, when men woe taken, its it were, by lawyer-craft to
tin the ; and the Liehcnt offices its the ad-
ministration were not fitted as in the time of the Godolphins
anal Somets's. Were the House ready to tell posterity that
men entered into Parliament as into trade, for themselsi P,
for their own interest, not for the good of their count}'. What
had heroine of the high-minded high-principled men whom
the tecords of former times hall 11i11111C11 doss 11 10 us thy
of imitation ? He should oppose the Gill for the rea,oos betore
stated ; and, lastly, ',remise it went to declare, by Act of PAr-
lialorot, that polities vi as a II adv.
. .

:11r. B %NKES CUECCI%I•III the }lon. Gentleman had ()vet...sated
the means of senarduse civil services, as vested in the Cs OA
Air. Burke, in 17142, was of opinion that the Civil List was
overburdened. 't ith respect to the Irish and scotch Pension
Lists, the form,' was within 11,11091. of that of England. lite
lion. Gentleman contended, that it was rest and eggilialgle to
Mill tilt' Crosso With the power of rewarding Civil servants ;
it WUS the inducement lot men of abilities to take office tor
the Iwnetit of their country, as in (lie rase of Mr. Pitt, whit
the lion. and Learned Gentleman had admitted to Le one ur
point. . _

- - -
ord A. HAMILTON opposed the Bill.
Mr. J. lose In dtlelld the collSiSteltey Of his CUII•
duct, having voted for •flit Rill in 1812. He ilia not think
that money ri numerate the servieesOf great "qatesini II;
hut he considered it politic in Parliament to take Call' 211. it
11111/4e hery ants were not iejnied in lhl it private
these reaming lie stinted vole tot du... Bill.

The Holm thou divided—Fur the Bill 1o5; against .13—
Majority in EAVOI4I' of the• Bill 60.
AtUonrutu at detest o'cloelL

TUESDAY MAY 20.

. -
General Titonsreots I.sit on till That silay, the sth of June,
his motion for abolishing the puoisliment of whippitig
Mr. C. EN pre.enteol a petition from the p.tri.ll of
Trow-htidge for relief aqainst the pres.ute of the Pour Nines.
ltefmerl to ;he Committee on the four Law,.. Ake one from
11 i;lioni Lister, requesting the Hone to es aI ii ii e lite loco-
pertien of an important invention of his. Older* dto lie on
the tattle.

An Account of the Parliamentary Grants ontlor Queca
Ague's Bounty was prcwvu, d ut the bar.
Geis. MAil Ew said, he held hand a petition signed
by a et e;:t number of persous tesidin4 iu littlAits, a City ooh
a Welt he had no cootie/stoat, except that of being the coon•
tri mot of tee petitioners : tlaey had requested kiln to pre,, nt
the petition. and lie was lat,ppy to obey their call, and attend
to their wishes '1 he petit tuners were Well aNate that, after
re tent decision in P.,rliametat, •any appl:cation they coeld
make to that House must be needless ; still they coat slanted
a hope that smite tolaiiCe sea, left them, ►n rase there von ii
he .a full and eiptai repre.a•otalion of the veople
meat. They stated it tube •heir opinion, that the Hooxe was'
'drays Wile bidet &ewe ur tlw weed, the kir reireseittetive

MAY 26.

the people in Parliament ; and they stated that taxation,
s‘ithunt representation, was a state of slavery. lie cotended,
that animal Pal hamenta were the only means for remedyli.g
the great evil that had grown up in our Constitution ; that it
was by them only that the people could be Sa Ved from min.
Nothing hot a complete leprescntation of the people could
enable Britons to live in a state of security. A great state..
man had said, that if the !louse did not reform itself from
ishin, the people %%mild reform it floor without. Let the
Boma!, then, recollect that remark particularly oil the pre•
sent evening, when the great question of Pariiaineulary
form was to be discussed, and when the question would con
to this issue—whether the people were to he restored to their
rights, or should be the obedient slave of Ministers.

the petition was then brought up and read by the clerk;
and it was ordered to lie on the table.

Sir ROLAND FLNGLSOs presented a petition from a town in
Sem land, stating the great distaes.es and hardships which the
petitioners, as well as others, laboured under, declaring, that
they considered these mi•furtuues As arising fruw the imper-
fect representation of the people, and requesting a Reform
in Parliament.

Sir Fits.sais IitAtoETT presented a petition from several
persons in the city or Cork, complaining of the weight of dis-
tress under which they antlered. The Hon. Barunit stated
it as a peculiar hardship on those people, that they could not
leave the country it they a ished it. The pet iti.m was sit,netl
by great ttttt niters of person•, whit he omit rstood had iLSMIU•
bied in a very quiet and mode'
The petition nag urdt led to he on the table.
PARLIAMENTARY REI'ORM.

Sir FRANCIS BIJRI/F.T'r rose to brief( forwarel the motion of
which he had given notice. Ile was certain that more peti-
tions against grievances, and in favour of parliansentary re-
form. had been presented that session than were ever before
presented to that House on any forint r OredX,iloll. of any de-
script' whatever. Formerly, when motions of Ibis kind
mete made, they used to lie resisted on the ground that the
people of the country dill not ask for sellout; and that there
was no necessity to give them that which they did not call
for. 'flit, practice of amitial parliaments was much older than
the time of William the Conqueror. One of the first laws of
the country was to have annual pat liameats. Every year the
King called a new parliament, which met for the pitrpose of
redressing the grievances of the day; and sontotinses the par-
lit .nt met twice a year. During the long and glia ions reign
of Edward 111, parliaments weltr awutal, and the King had
not a right tc proro,we them from one year to another; but
was bound to has e a new parliament every year. It was
thereto' e agreed on all hands, that from the earhest times to
the time of Henry VI. parliaments were annually elected.
Ile should 110 W COOIC 110W0 to the period of Henry VIII.
when the practice aas changed. At the time when that
King quarrelled with the Pope, Wlo'llllo Willited to get rid
of his wile, and wished to bring, about time Heforinati6ll, he
saw that all those things were hostile to thew ill of the tuition;
and in order to carry theist into effect, he kept the parlia-
ment together fur lice years. Afterwards iii the reign of
Dimes' Mary, although she was called a bloody queen. short
parliaments were resorted to, not ft 0111 any merit on the pelt
of the Queen. but because she knew such a measme would
please the Catholics, Who wished to halve restored to them
that property which the long parliament of Henry VIII. had
taken from them. %Whatever might be said respecting the
character of Mary, there were tree parliaments in her time. •
Under the Stuarts, that storm burst which had been gather.
ing so many years in the political horieuti. But Vim parlia-
ment which batelit so manfully. for the liberties of the it coun-
try, lost its purity by the length of its asistemue, and passed
an act fur rendering itself pet yenta!, and tWilided upon ex-
actly the same principle as one of which he should have to
speak, nano ly, the Septennial Act. Though Charles 11.
*4s guilty of many violations of the laws, lie i i collected the
fate of his father and did not she% any open contempt of the
power of Parliament. Let any one read the declaration of
the Prince of Orange, dated tium the Hague, coataintrig the
remonms why lie hail resolved to come Wier to the assistance
of this nation, and stating the articles of accusation against
the King, and he will find, that although many heavy griev-
ances are alleged, such as sanctioning the 41.6'1r:11'y proceed-
ings of the Judges, and hide' tering in the impaeruelling of
juries, yet the greatest stress is laid upon the King's having
taken 111C41111 to 110(.111e an undue return of inciiiliers to par-
liament, and to torrupt them when assembled ; and these
ice :tees can only lie lemedied, says the I'. ince, by a lice
rept eseulation in Parlianii nu. For awl-pries ices wills tespect
to piti liaments and their prelogativ es, he might say !hat three
Kings had lost the crown. And shad it be hurtle, that what
lots 'tee er beim allowed to the Crow 11 11111 A by suriciidered to
individuals He, could wish to base had the veleta ated pe-
titions/flit/3 read, but as it had long been in phut, and
much refi:rreil to of late, he hoped every Member had it in
Iris • eceilieelion. By this petition It Was 0110 Cll to be proved,
that eighty-four Peers ',turned a !Handled and fifty seven
'itemisers to that house, fltlf two-tliiids of the number he was
then achlsessing. It was also slated, that one hitiolied and
!jay divintorld were CCtlll'lled 1101 by the voices of those whin*
they appealed to represent, but by the imiumsee of 14
TIME. 301 menthe's, a 1101.10111) Cr that house, were
-t nt by 231 persons, who 111118 claimed die right of disposing
Of the lives, the libel hes, and the property; ul this ie Irlluwr
subjects, and became theniselv es the Ger el 1111iClIt of the
enutitry. '1 he statute of the Ist of IVestniiiistee, declaring
that 110 great man (millets *won, Inn's) shah inlet fere Su elec-
tion., stands mirepeated at this day. By a statute of Charles
11. an with ma. imposed upon meinuers, that they w. nal re
drive 110 gratuities front the Crown while iii that Home. So
that even the courtly times of Charles 11. were not sasootli
e to tilrnish precedents to the Bight how
opposite for its minden' of the necessity of cut mown. It
had beets said by Mr. whe appeared to him to lie
ay Ilir the most ingenious 111.111 0110 1140 ever opposed parlia-
mentary reform, and who at once defended and awn,' red
cos/Nihon, that it was the people who were cut mid, who
stood w need of refuel'', and he put Ins case thus : A itatsut
goes to his landlord, saying, I want my eon, who is its the
nave, made a Illildtti and commander; die landlord makes
the 114111 C iqiptication to his patron ; and here', says lie, the
corrupt is Orally traced to the people. (wanted
%%hal is the Cxcilus this eorrupt expeclatiens tie
4 man, that his son shah. he promoted over the heads of his
fellows( Bad, undoubtedly —and the Mutt es 111 the system,
nut in Ilie mew who is only fallowing the Illehliatioi.s of Ili,
tine, ruclinationo %illicit would be linlowt.tl italic cat %cue
a bind of saints. (Blur, hear!) It was not hnsnw.Ps of
any individual to ',Mist out a spet ial 'enmity ; all twit could
fairly be cal .eh el was, that he sinned hotly putid out the
•evil. Ile world nut go into the :dish:act questo ii, Whether
orrtot the ay seem of timatitteeslim was had ; the. e. were eces-
how 100 self evil. lit to be dilated Nom, and this was one
Of them. The state of affairs was nuts irmy aiaribwg, and
.4,y .au weans the least dangerous feature Ju thew was, that

MAY 26.

alienation of the Commons from their constituents; and bow
conk! it hi• otherwise, when the people rundtog down to that
noese Nish statements ot their L:rieyarres, u ere met by bill.
of‘eyerity ? The advocates tor r.forool were neither few tool
„mote,' among then, Chatham tool Pitt.
nioimportain ; they
Rorke, although he 10.00 l been alarmed Woo opinions contrary
to those ct'a previono.ly lime life, ha 1 lift behind him smo',.
remarkable °loser% atimos ono the impolite nature I,t' the Iloose
trf Coonoarons.--Belo Sir Francis Burdett read a low; passage
from Jr. Borke's works, the sobstanee of which na,, that
the Flown. of Common's was a runt rood fur the people and not
ozoidti them; and that it nookd be better that the House
soorod be 11(•.V aml obezo seized with an epidemic phrenzy in
imnpalloy with the people, than that it should be estiamted
from them. 'Vise !loon. Horonet conehoded by moviole, That
n Select Committee be appointed for the purpose of a general
enquiry into the ,dlegatiots of the petition .if 1793, partici!.
lnoic as to the influence exercised by Pecos in the election* of
Inlf milers of that Hons.."
Mr. BRAND seeonded the motion.

Sir JOHN NientiLf. rose to state the groneds of his objec
thin to making aoy alteration in she cosistit union. Those who
proposed it Were, he said, hound to whew the evils of the pre-
sent system of representation. There might be sonic small
evil attendant on it, 13111 lie wonlil enquire what were the be-
nefits we at present enjoyed tinder it, and then he witild ask
-whether those small e, its could b^ removed without endan•
Kerins those h"nefits? That the nation dill enjoy great bene-
fits, few would be found to deny; that the coostituti (((( did
produce much happiness to those who lived under it, he need
not attempt 10 establish by argument. (Hear, hrur;)—And
before blessings of this ina :nitittle were put to risk, h 01011 ght
the House ought seriously to pause, especially when it was
considered that the constitntion was not a simple machine.
but one that required to he manageii and altered with the
greatest ditficulty. A rude and unskilful hand might bring it
to a stop and to destruction. (//cur, !kyr ! 1-- This the House
knew, that nt present it worked well. (Ifear!)—% hat, he
would ask, worked snore admirably than the trial by jury
the iiiiperfeetion of which, however, might be, that one ob-
stinate person might starve the rest into unanimity. l'he
present system had the argument arising from experienre
in its favour. •- parliament for its wisdom should have men
of the greatest talents, bir its information it should have com-
tuereial men, professioral mess, and members cf the army
sod navy--and w•as not this the way in whirls the Horse was
at Kett:nit eaustittfted, And Is id not boroughs brought into
the House as ediglee•ued members as those of more popular
representation? (Hear!) —At present all the interests of the
-state erne well balanced, and even the very lowest classes
of society, though having no nominal representation, hail
their interests as fairly attended to as it' ever so much reps e-
sented. Nay, in latter times, it had been au object of the
House to take oil the burden of taxation from the poor, though
it fell the heavier on the higher classes. The constitntion
worked by two great pasties, one having confidence in the
Yr:vecutive (overnment, and the other beiag composed of
those members who watched it with an 11044111 jealousy. The.
Hon Baronet had not proposed ally thing specific, bet vari-
ous theories were afloat, the greater part of which went to
the extent of demanding universal suffrage. This was going,
much farther than hail ever been proposed to the House be-
fore. This was going •h farther than had ever been pro-
posed to the 1101151. before. This system would demi Ity the
preponderating influence of• rank and property ; and if this
branch was desire.) ell all the rest would billow, and the end
would be res•olutionary anarchy and military despotism. It
was to be recollected, that the tpiestion of reboil' was in dif-
fereet hands out of doors to what it was in 1782, or even in
lilt:. And looking at the chat acter of reformers, amongst
other reasons, he thought it better to submit to a trifling evil
than t isilanger the loss of a certain good. The influence of
the Crown had not been on the increase, indeed there were
not above half the persons connected with it by office, that
there were less than a century ago. The introduction of any
change would pot to hazard the safety of the constitution,
which had grown up out of the wisdom of ages, and become
endeared to us by the perils and dangers of tweni) -live years,
and by the prosperity and happiness, which after all it haul
left us in possession of', and he should, therefore, give his
decided opposition to the motion. (//ear, hear!)
Lord COCHRANE observed, the Hun. Bart. had said, that
all interests were represented in that House, but he had for-
got to advert to an influence which might preponderate over
all those interests—that of the owners of• boroughs, whose po-
litical inclinations must necessarily he consulted by those who
were sent into that House by them ; fur, said the Noble Lord,
are we st all ages pure ? Hear !) Corruption would des-
troy itself; it was like it dead carcase, the maggots would cat
it up. (Laughing I) "11 c are the maggots of the cus:stiW•
lion." (Laughing!) " There is nothing of wickedness bi t
what may he found here—bribery, corruption and perjury."
((great cries 1•0* hear! hem•!) If the !louse was not reformed,
be considered that the country WAS lost as an independent
cation.
Mr. CURWEN supported the motion.

Mr. W.tutn comic Tuned as most pernicious—most danger-
ous—the measure which the Hon. Baronet proposed, With.
out imputing to that lion. Baronet any sinister motive. Ills
view of a motion for Parliamentary Reform, was as a motion
for revolution—a motion which *cut to change the frame of
the Government, and the old established fabric of the Consti•
tiation—( a:.) --to destroy that finest, if not the milv eflecti%e
system of rule the world had ever known for the happiness
and freedom of the human race. The attack was not easy—
nothing a ;is more simple than to tell the people th, y were not
represented. (Hear, hear !) This wits language, a hich. how-
ever illogical, could not fail to please a certain portion of the
people. It would be a proposition equally palatable, that
they ought to be represented, to. whoever talked of right was
sure of a favourable hearing. But to defend tic Constitn-
lion as it exists, to relate and expose the imputations cast
upon it; and to appreciate the value of such argument when
used—the-se were operations of the mind which demanded
(and he did hot say so from any feeling of presumption or of
insolence) a certain degree 4.f reflection and of education.
He *mild t hevish that constitution which enabled the
!attire to resist the current of public mischief, and public
clanger, *hick gave the people time to reflect 'lron th. ir si-
tuation, awl retrace their steps, without having sutierml from
their own tit-stakes. Reform ill Path: nt !! Who heard
of Reform three wars ago, as a measure of the least interest
to the people i ho world hear of it three yearn hence
( Ilear, ks or ! ) The lion. Baronet carried his researches as
far back as the Norman connuest. The authority, however,
of that pi-tied, was rather unfortunate fur his argument; f
then it was pretty clear, that an assembly of the Commons of
the !Gitlin wan unknown. The great council of the natiou
was formed exclusively of the Nobles. He could not con-
ceive therefme, that the law, or the practice of annual meet-
ings miller William, the Nllllllllll, could go far in convincing
the Hum of the legality or expedkucy of a
,Refutui in the

THE NATION.% REGISTER.

Comennus House of Pailiteinclt at the present day. (Mar,
ar Animal Parliaments, in the lauguar,e ana intent of
the ancient law, meant only animal meetings •.f parliament.
such was the eanstitietioii of 0111' forefoiliers, and upon that
ground lie would readily argue the question. lie would con
tend for the wu•ient constitution of our forefathers, and if he
were told that it w•as unrensonable that the county of Rut-
land should equal that of York, that Gallon should repeal
Bristol, lie would ear, • if this be absurd, it is the ahstirelity
of nor not ours ;'lt is the constitution, and must
therefore stand unmoved.' ( Hear, hear.) The reformers weli
knew the revereuee• of the English people fur their ancient
laws, and this is the vet y !lottery which they have eontimially
directed agniest the people, representing as the ancient con.
stitntion of this country, what was nothing but a new (angled
system of theirs—a monstrous innovation ! Why was their
whole force directed against the House of Commons ?—Why
were there no objections to the House of Lords? That
House was the only member of the constitution which they
assailed. If their system were agreed to, what days of hap-
piness ! No armies, no glories, no Wellingtons, no corrupt
miderstanding between different branches of the legislature.
•I'lie golden age would return with the realized visions of re-
form! These were their joyful dreams; but he apprehended
far different revolts. lie did not intimate that any thing
could drive Englishmen into the horrors of revolutionary
France ; but he could not help pointing out this disastrous
example of universal suffrage to the House. He would as
soon part with the county of York, as with Old Sarum, even
for the sake of popular liberty. How did Mr. Fox get a seat,
when he lost his election for Westininster ? ( /lear!l He was
not ag.l;itst innovation, where he saw the fair condition of
inno ation—actual grievance, and a chance of improvement ;
hot without that lie most support the constitution, which one
forefathers purchased and transmitted to us by their blood.—
(Thar. ) . . .

Sir S. Rositt.t.v replied at considerable length.
LAMB denied that the authority of lir. Burke could
he adduced in favour of a Parliamentary Reform, such as was
now sought for, as many passages of his a orks would clearly
demonstrate. For himself, he deemed stadia measure totally
uncalled for, nor would he canvass for a sail) popularity, by
giving Ilia opinion in support of those doctrines which
believed in his consrienee were destined only to flatter and at
the same time to &aide the people. (hew, hear.) A suffi-
cient distinction was not taken between what gas sought fm-
from preredent, and what Seas sought fur a novelty; and lie
for one could not consent to begin a measure, milts, the way
was phtinly and derisively chalked out before him. Ile could
nit consent to be bound up for a time, as an Hon. Gent. had
....pressed it, and subsequently let loose no one knows where.
In discussing this subject, it was generally assumed, that the
petition presented to the House for Reform in 1793, was a
document of unquestionable authority. That he for one, was
by no means disposed to concede. Among other statements,
it is set forth, that 308 members were sent into the House of
Commons, by the iiilluence of Noblemen. But if true, he
would ask whether the term influence ought to he taken in a
bad sense? Was it not natural that persons of great pro-
perty, of hereditary reputatims, and of high individual respec-
tability, should has e some weight in the counties to which they
belonged; and if from the esteem with which they were
thought of, some of their friends were returned to represent
those counties, was it to be considered as the effect of a cor-
rupt Mid illegal influence?—tlieur, hem!) It' a man came,
into the house with the view of foreiug upon them his own
obstinate opinions, and by the aid of his friends pressed the
Ministry for patronage, and turned it to his own purposes, lie
admitted nothing, entail be more degrading. Many, however,
of the greatest men who sat in that House, originally apps ared
there as members fin what were called close boroughs, among
wh were Burke, Pitt, and Windham. He concluded aith
saying, that if the Pleasure were approved of by the House,
and produced all the great consequences expected from it,
no person would rejoice at it more than himself; but until
be saw a greater probability titan lie could at present perceive
of its utility, he could not give it his support.— (Hear!)
Mr. TIERNEY said, that the only argument he hail ever
heard against parliamentary reform resolved itself into this :
• All things were well as they were, anti that is well known,"
(a laugh)---but the fact still was, that the people remained
unrepresented so long as a peat majority of the House aas
returned by so small a 1111111110- of persons. He did not go so
I far as to expect theoretical perfection in the state of the re-
' presentation; but he thought it could not he controverted
that time had made several inroads upon the representative
system, and he hoped it was yet practicable to repair them.
(War, hear, hear!) He had indeed changed his opinion as
to the probalulitv of success attending any plan which would
be offered to the. House for operatical or general and radical
change in the system ; but he believed that it could, and he
was sure that it ought to be done by degrees. He considered
it a great grievance that the monied interest of this country
had it in their power to get themselves into parliament by the
force of their wealth, and to have a map,' ity of members in
that House. This was a dreadful evil, that a man alto had
made a fortune by a lucky thin of a loan, should have the
power of possessing an influence in that House superior to
that of the first load-omit,' in the country —t hear!)--He was
altogether hostile to the proposed plan of universal suffrage
and minuet parliaments. But that was no reason ahy the
state of the representation should not be ioquired into by a
Committee.

Lord Ilit,ToN thought that no ease had been made for al-
tering the• constitoot:ou of the ii.mse ut• Commons as it now
stood; and there Moe lie must oppose the present motion.
The gn•stiou was now loudly called fur, soul the House
di%itleol—For the motion, 77—Azainst it, kW—Majority,
I St.l. —T he House adjourned at hall past two.

vEnxr.w.tv m 21.
The .Metropolis Paving Rill vent through another stage.

THE SEPTENNIAL ACT.

llr, rise, Sir, to give notice that I %hall on
the sth day of June, as the first open (la), submit a motion to
the House, for the repeal of the Septennial Aet."—((:rita of
lhar, hccir ! from the Opposition)—Mr. Brom:4llam then oh•
acned, that tearing the notion on the day lie had indolent d
might interfere with a motion ttlueh alt. aay stood for that
day, he should defer it to the loth tit*J tine.