The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser.
London, England, 1816-05-14 00:00:00

TITRES IN IRELAND.

Thi• Earl of IC trtbsiort, in a very low tone of
vnicv, which was almost inaudible below the bar,
prefated his ',lobo') fi.r the second reading of the
Bill for regislatiog the collection of Tithes in Ire-
land; with'sonie observstions on the disadvantages
at Kt sent existing. We understood his Lordship
to state, that, according to the constrnetion which
was put upon the 427th of the King, by which, if
notice for the removal of Tithes WM given by five
persons on the same day, for the purpose of embar-
rassing the Clergyman, it should be considered a
misdemeanor, and punishable as such. He be-
lieved it was the case, that in many instances the
hare notice of five or more persons was considered
by the Ecclesiastical Courts as a presumption of
the intention referred to by the Act. By this means
the farmer was placed at the mercy ..f the Tithe
Proctor. His Lordship concluded with moving.
that the Bill should be read the second time.

The LORD CHA NCIMLOR PlClOr+oed his surprise
that the Ecclesiastical Courts in Ireton(' should
suppose themselves qualified to try for a misde-
meanor. If they had such u power, all lie could
filly was, that the law in Ireland was very (141i:resit
from the law in England. It was, in his opinion,
also a mistake that the notice by five persons on the
Mille day ennui be taken ail R presumption of any
vexatious intention. The Act would not admit of
roach n construction. If the principle of the pre-
sent Bill was right, the enactments were insufficient
to carry h ludo execution.
The Marquis of LA WIDOWN said, he understood
from others, us well as from his Noble Friend, that
such an opinion did prevail in the Ecclesiastical
Court. of Irel I. The farmers were consequently
deterred from %obi% out their corn at the time
when the weather was most fiivounts.le. The dr-
el anti ttttt however, of the Noble mid Learned Lord,
that bilCh Was out the law, would, lie hoped, All•
Swer the purpose intended to be accomplished by
the Bill.

The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the pre-
sent Bill was by sin means calculated to set the
shattirr right. He hot' no hesitation in stating, that
fur four or live persons to give notice on the same
day, without the comiretims of any circumstances
that could prove it in have originated iii an unlaw-
ful conspiracy, wits not a misdemeanor. If such
decisions had been mule as were alluded to, he
thought the hest course would be to move for the
removal of the persons who had so decided. If he
was asked, whether such decisions were or were not
legal ? lie should not hesitate one moment iu stat-
ing that they were not.
Lord Flor.i.strn declared his respect for the au-
thority of the Noble amid Leap lied Lord, hut if such
enormous abuses existed iii Irelatid, lie thought the
House should not he satisfied without instituting
an inquiry into the subject. 011 a former 'sight,
when it was stated that many grievances existed in
that country, the answer was, hying forward your
cases, and we will apply the remedy. If some ►tep
was not taken with regard to the present subject,
that pledge would not be redeemed. The most
regular aad parliamentary mode of proceeding
would he to move for information. He could not
speak f his own expeneoce, having no connec-
tion with Ireland, but he always understood that
■ll questions relative to Tithes were prosecuted in
the Ecclesiastical Courts. This was a great addi-
tion to the hardship of Tithes. They should exa-
mine the nature of these Courts, their mode of pro-
ceeding, and the principles on which they decided.
The Archbishop of Cantu. said, he was sure
that no instance had occurred isi which any deci-
sion was given by the Ecclesiastical Courts of the
nature alluded to.

Lord REDESDALE expressed his conviction that
the Courts ist Irel I were not so ignorant us to
come to such decisions. He remembered that when
he was in Ireland lie was applied to by a Clergy-
moo, who carver entertained the idea of applying to
the Ecclesiastical Comas, complaining that notice
had been scut to hint on the Utile day by four 110.111..
Oiled persona,. The Clergy were put to great ill•
comeineoce in that country by the injudic.
uariam or several and it would be well if
could be done to pot all end to the liti-
gation fortneen the Clergy and Landholder*. The
present Bill, however, could produce uo such
effect.

The Marquis or BUCCINOIMI said, that every
word he had heard convinced him ,no and snore
of the necessity of the motion lw had submitted
route time ago, for an inquiry into the state of Ire-
land. The best course, on the 'Hestia occasion, he
thought, would be for the Noble Lord to withdraw
his Bill, and move for a C • tee to inquire iota
the state and practice of the Ecclesiastical Courts,
with reference to that subject.
The Marquis of Howhinter. remarked, that both
the Clergy mid the Farmer experienced great diffi-
culty from the practice of the Ecclesiastical
Courts. He also complained of the ninon of pa-
rishes. He knew one Clergyman himself who had
six parishes tuatteisd to, the duties of which it its,"
impossible that he could perform. He aim
gladly give his support to any tucasurc, the object of

After a few words from the Earls of llosst.rx
and ABiRDESIN,

The Earl of KINGSTON expressed his satisfaction
at what had Cullen .from the Noble and Learned
Lord. and said, that, in the course of the next Ses-
sion, he should• move for a Committee. Ile then,
with the leave of the Howe., withdrew the Bill.
The Marquis of BUCILIMMAN wi4heri to know
whether his Majesty's %bolsters would be favoura-
ble to the motion for a Committee.
Lord SIDMOUTII said, ilnit if such a motion was
made, and that grounds were stated in support of it
sufficient to satisfy them of its neceosity, Ministers
would nut object.

MILITARY IN THE STREETS OF THE
METROPOLIS.

The Earl of Es;e7tcotnTilan-ied to the House of
having been again obstructed in the street■ by mi-
litary power. ♦s he was proceeding this day from
Chasing-cross to St. James's-street, in his carriage,
he was stopped at the bottom of Pall-mall by
soldiers on horseback. He did not expect such
an interruptions after what had already passed
on the subject; and particularly after the pro-
mise given by the Noble Secretary of State. He
first asked ler what authority those persons act-
ed ? The answer was, that they :ivied on the or-
ders of their officer. lie then inquired where their
officer was ? They said at Carlton House. His
next inquiry was fur u peace officer ; in reply to
which he was told that they had nothing to do with
peat e officers. Upon this lir went up the Hay-
market, and so mood to St..taines's-street. The
occasion of this military 'wade, lie found, was, that
the Lord Mayor was going up to the Prince Re-
gent with an Address. St. James's-street was bill
of soldier*, for which he saw no necessity. His
Lordship conelnded with moving fur a copy of the
orders under winch the military had acted.

Lord Senmotms admitted ilia he had pledged
himself to take ►tepa that the Civil Power should
he in attendance when the Military were employed.
He hail also stated, on that occasion, that it was not
by an order from the Secretary of State's Office the
Military were called out. Immediately after the
discitssion he had issued the 4 po,itive orders
that the Power should act conjointly with
them ; and, on the next occasion, when they were
called out, he saw the Sitting Nbigi4trtite 01 West-
minster himself, and repeated to him the same in-
junction.- He was sure there must have been some
want of commuhication on this occasion. Whenever
the military were calls d out, the Secretary of State
ought to he apprised of the order. At the same time
he felt it but justice to those individuals who were
called upon to art, to observe. that they had con-
ducted themnsels•es in all cases, except those alluded
to by the Noble Lord, in a manner that gave the
greatest satisfaction, and by the temper they dis-
played, were entitled to the approbation of the coun-
try for their conduct at home as well as abroad.
The Earl of Essitx assured the Honer, that the
soldiers were not guilty of the slightest disrespect.
His complaint was that they should be called cut at
all. It was an abominable practice to see the
streets lined with soldiers.

Earl FITZWILLIAIA said he was more convinced
of the necessity of the motion after what had fallen
from the Noble Secretary of State. The question
was, whether the country would submit to be go-
verned by military power ? Ile was the more jea-
lous of its exercise in this instance, as the occa-
sion was in itself so trifling. 11e remembered that
in June, 1814, when Mr. Smiler, the aeronaut was
about to asceiol at York, a military force was em-
ployed to keep the ground clear. He thought at
first that it must have been called out by the Civil
Authority, but found that it was not. Were the
military, lie would ask, to go out whenever mili-
tary men were pleased to order them ? WHO the
civil power to crouch to them ? lie should give
his hearty support to the motion, for the purpose of
resisting studi consequences.
The Marquis of Ilocittaatisst thought, that the
matter became much more serious, after what had
passed oil the same subject before. Ibis Noble
Friend had made hi: application, ant as a Peer of
Parliament, lout as a subject entitled to protection.
'the Noble Secretary hail admitted, that there was
a want of communication ; and it was for the House
to decide, whether they would pass over the trans.
action in silence, and patiently submit to the
lash of a military government. He had stated,
that no orders were issued from his office. de-
siring the attendance of the soldiery ; it be-
Caine them, therefore, to follow up the motion of
his Noble Friend with another, fur the purpose of
ascertaining by what authority they were called mit.
It ails right that they should know who it was that,
iu defiance of the law, pre-slimed and dared, against
the Constitution of the country, to till the streets
of the metropolis with soldiers.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE insisted on it strongly,
as a principle of the Conatitistion, that the military
power ~hould only be called out in aid of the
Lord Sioatoterw said, 1w had always reprobated
the substitution of the military fur the civil power.
Even iu cases where disturbance was expected, it
was Ins practice to suit' the military at a (haulier,
iii a sitoat i to be called upon if necessary. %Visa'
he had state,' taf.re wa., that wheu tlw military
were called out for purposes of state or public
cai-
velilence, they si ~,,, Id be attended by the civil
power. The practice of employing them for such
put lases was of long standing, and the object war,
that they should intOim alt persons who were pro.
credit% in that particular direction, that if they did
so, they would taps riruce iuconvetlience themselves,
and be the cause of inconvenience to others. How-
ever, 1w never would be the instrument of calling
out the tuilitary without the civil power.
The Earl of Esau. said, lie believed, if the Noble
Lord would inquire, he would find that the milwary
were never before emplojed on the occasion of
going up with an Address. The old custom of
calling them out, was by an order from the Secre-
tory of State to the Horse Guards, he supposed it

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PRICE SEVEN-PESCE.
I,- • _
was now done by an order from the Hearse tuner.) •
to the Secretal of Stater
. The Marquis cf LANSDOISN observed, that eveiy
thing that had fallen from the Noble Secretary, a..
a conatitaiti 111 l HI paint or view, mat correct, halt on
that very account was inapplicable to the rd, 1.. they
were considering. lie would ask, whether the
military had been culled out, suborditiate io the
civil officer? If it hail, be would ask, how came
it then that his Noble Friend was refused his appeal
to the civil power? The conduct of the soldiery
was not the quest on—the question was, who gave
the orders? He did not object to the occasional
employment of the military, under tertu'n circum-
stances; but the judge of those circumstance*
should not he a military man, but the head of the
civil authority.
The Earl of riutaowst odd, that the pmc'irts
of stationing military in the streets, on certain ruc.
cations, was uniformly adopted, as far ai the me-
mory of main could extend. If they went to the
strict legality of the Case, he did not see what right
either • constable or a soldier had to prevent any
one from going down any street. Bait sometimes,
to enable persons to attend the Sovereign, or a 'the:. a
House of Parliament, it was found necessari• to have
• recourse to them. During the trial of Warren rho.:
ings, the passages to the Courts of Justice were pa- i
raided by soldiers for a period of seven years. If the
practice had exceeded of late, the bust mode of
bringing it back to its former state was, by the pub-
lie notice now taken of it, which rendered any other
proceeding unnecesssry.
The Earl of Lsuereiteste said, he now Under.
'trod, for the brit time, that it was constitutional tat
cull out the military without the civil power. If
such was the case, lie knew not where to look for
the distinction between this and the arbitrary
governments of the Continent.
Earl STASittoPE asked; whether, if the soldi: t
had wounded the Coellinail, or ally person in the
coatis, and that the person died in consequeenee, the 1
soldier, and all those who were accessaries before or
alter the fact, would not be guilty of murder ?
Lord llou.snn observed, that the worst parade !
they could give to the taste of a free pcople was a
parade of soldiers in the streets. If the soldier hail
struck any one, and was prosecuted lea an as-
tumult, would it lie a sufficient defence to state.
that lie had acted in obedience to military orders?
It was said by the Noble Lord who spoke list, oat
the other side of the House (Lord Harrow'', ), that
this was a matter of very little importance. Was
it, in point of principle, a matter of very little im-
portance, that Cie whole of this reeled ag vas
founded on military orders, issued by au Nokias.* is
military COMlnatader ?—(Hear, hear.) —Wes it of
no importance, that the Secretary of State for the.
Hume Department was not able to lay before the
House any satisfactory result from .the inquirts
which a former notice of a similar outrage was sai I
said to have occasioned ? All they knew was, that
the Secretary of State had not the opportu-
nity of preventing the recurrence of those scenes
which had been complained of. It wis riglo,
it was absolutely necessary, that the House slots if
learn under whose orders those excesses had been
cominitted. The Secretary of State for the
Home Department had engaged and pledged
himself in that House, to investigate the bassi.
tiers which had previously taken place. Whe-
ther lie had discovered the secret, or not, lie
could not say. But, if he had discovered it,
the business came to this, that it was felt im-
proper to let the House know what the facts of
the case were. The Lord Mayor, it appeared.
went through all the popular streets of the City of
London, without a single soldier--and certainly he
never had heard, that the yiast Nle...;is:rate of the
City ass u greater object of curiosity nut of Lie d in
then in it. But, from the conduct now adopted, it
seemed to he supposed, that the moment lie came
into Pall-Mall, all the Courtiers land all those
persons whose ditty it was, as the Noble Vi.c •u it
had stated, to attend the Court, were astonished at
the sight of City pageantry, and the crowd I ecaine
so great, that it was neeraoary for the preset yahoo
of order to call in the military. Butt were not their
Lordships to be told whence the military raine,or who
ordered them to make their appearance ?—/ Hear. j
Would the House. by negativing the motion of the
Noble Lord, act so dishonourable a part, as to sanc-
tion, in a certain degree, the outrage complained
of?—(Hear, hear.)—Even if they did, the circum-
stances would be known and investigated. If ero-
secution, if publication, if examioation could pro-
duce an exposition of this subject, it should be
fully known and understood.— Wear, hear.)—Tlie
orders under which the military acted, oil those oc-
casions, should be placed fairly before the House.
Earl STAN tiopE observed, in answer to what fell
from the Noble Lord opposite, that, in the- ease he
had referred Li, time military were called in be the
desire of the House itself—(Hear, hear,)—awl.
thetelOre, no charge of illegality could he ad-
vanced agalliat it. The House. at that time, tide('
on this prisiciple. that every Court of Justice I ad
a right to keep its avenues awl passages open. II s
Loutishly here read, from the Journals, the under lir
which the Lords with the white Slums were directed. i
in the trial of kl'arren Hastings, to provide for U e
clesrance of tier totem's-1i to Westminster Hall. The j .
Noble Earl then argued. that the case, in the in. i
stance quoted, was very different from the preterit,
There the military acted under the authority of dos
civil power, the House itself directed its avenues is
•
be kept clear--and, therefore, it could not be cited a.
us a precedent, to bear out any mats, iii a high mi-
litary capacity, for giving those orders wider *la c't
the military hid acted on this oreveioh. If, .•,
consequence from the directions given, an is d.ii-
dual had been killed, the Weiler would haw heeii
murder, and the person who land given the soldier
authority to act, would be liable to indictinunt for
the olivine.
Viscount SIDISOUTH &lid, that, during WWII
years. whilst the trial of Warren Hastings lasted,
the King's highway, that is, towards Westniiiistre
Hall, was not open to all his Majesty's subjects.-..
I

~~

The mutter of orrnmetit herr ono, tlint. let the eh.-
enin.l,4•ll.ril What tlwe Mhll the tatect.
ehould he kept oven. At Ihr (tow Io whirl, he
allotted, 11011 e, 4.1,1,14 Alen'twr. of rothainent Were
pottered to tr, down Rirli.ilheot-•treet--other per-
rour nfli;te.l In woke a drionr„ by ttttt -
I"kee. its ohlrr or root, M Tallier-ymerl. 'Poore woo
11,,•1, Now, If the interruption were
enol,l ant e,,,ierive that any or-
iitr of l'ir roulil render it legal.
The Do'..e thol, four
to that I,ow bef,,re
t",i lii. is•,- I lit floiltle.'ll 1.1 1111'or ilot•oe. He did nit
dnnhtl,.,t lIIaI ilie Vlot,me;t had acted lehe,t
awl hull exerted ',howl!, in the utmost
of 1,,• to1)11',1', for ihi. vr 'Tose or proeuriog filet
iittcolpoi f,• the el% it riiittimitieii, whit b to i.e
1-1 site:, X (ter *hot the. Nol,le
i••• ot, i had forme, 1,4 turq 1111 l he con-
• 111 4! I:1 if lie 1'11.11.1 11,1 t now 1w UVerSe to the
Ho Noble Friend. With re-
-I.llrl I In ti it .1 the Pre trident or the C twit!, be
ri"•t !iis opinion u 4. utterly ititivfirrtl.tii it. II
IVl'len•uhtil in the liod iloitailee, it
ecri Mill,' .11 I net r.. 11011/ that titu !okay time it
s1,0:11,1 ~,,, L> cherkrit,

1. t N D %qv. 14nriirilw(1 that any perms§
••,. I veg.-4A in the Ise or Pirlinment ns the
N•11)!t• VI-et t wtu. 11,p111d titit'lllitt nu Omit the
log •...1 vair with the di 1•111110ntirt'S which:occurred
r.. /...ro:d of the ttial or wiorEo I la,Aings. The
111:410 Conti of Parliament certainly had a right.
v.:41 CIVII !wily. to cosonloy ',roper memo. for
Le: pm:4 clear. But, in Oita instance, rin
Rio n seullsor.ty—in fact, no authority at S6II—WIM
At 014 i, an justifying the interposition of tart nail-
tare.

I.oollllt nWOUTii wid, Isis arglaillent was
this : —that no breach of the law was committed ;
mill that, certainly, the Iligh Court of Parliament
pcwierseil nn isuthseity sufficient to justify a breach
of the law. Ile *poke this in reference to the sir-
crilitshitices attending Ilse trial of Warren Ilastilige.
lf the conduct then punned was, in the abstract,
I .mingry to law, most certainly no order of that
noose milli render it legal.
1.411 Ilot.t.aNn expluiactl.
Tho Marini+ or A Pisnows said, that the Noble
Viscount had liven repeatedly culled on to answer a
plait, inielligihle question, which 1w had not no-
Cued, lint had adverted to other matters. The
stur%tims w:s. this " %Verr the wilitary called out at
the requitaiion of the Noble Viscount, or at the
resplisition sir any civil atithority whatever ?"
%t slow ;mower that iiitern•gotory
The illaripio. of Ilucktati HAI% tqw, if the pro-
vent %%cry 10,0, Ise would move 'for an Address
to Itcgrut, requesting his T':.,..1 High-
111.••4todirect that their Lordship. should Ire no.
f0r1114.11 is V WI llw orders to the military were
mous!, no I. Is occasion.

A took ',lime, when them ilppesredt
Itotiost
AcAitmt it

ly ••

During un; mlrsrocr from bet I the lour, the
514111114. of I:I;CILIN4HAH gosoe nutlet that be would.
ens h missy next. move set Asltlressto the Prince Re.
o lot the nre►saury incurutstitiu wt this subject.
—Atljuut fled.