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London, England, 1820-10-14 00:00:00

lalebisersie,'Cheers..:—Would they place the slate and Ilse
authority of the Hoeft in great* claspr and jeopardy;
If that was the wish of their Lordships, they bad only to
proceed. He Wrongly asserted that the affair which had just
sprung to their view should be instantly set right. So
strong a proof of a conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice,
as was manifested by this one fact, compelled him to say
that their Lordships would do well to gel rid of the hominess
at once, while they could do it with • show of justice, by
throwing out the Bill.—(llear, Agar, /sear.)
I The Earl of Liverpool conceived that be bail some claim
In fleas lordships indulgence. He would ask if the Nobla
I or.' had treated him with the ordinary fairsess which he
i Lime !nig, d that Noble Lord generally possessed, to as-
sume as marls as be had dune with respect to the motives
and conduct of his Majesty's Government on refereoce to
sareunistanees, which very probably might he very satisfac-
torily explained to their Lordships, but wills respect to
which Ministers at least would be able fully to exculpate
themselves before their Lordships. As to the allusion which
had hero made to his own promise of securing the continu-
ance of the wit Melees in this country, he could only say that
Ise had WWI held out either hope or promise to their Lord-
steps, except such as he had afterwards fulfilled. He ap-
pealed to all his past public life, for the refutation of
any such charge. He repelkd the imputations on behalf
of Isis triends in Administration. He must admit, at the
wise time, that it was the duty of those who were engaged
in supporting the Bill, to secure the continuance of the wile
urines in this country. He was ready to admit, that the
wading away of Rastelli was highly blameable iii whatever
quart. r it took place. He must entirely acquit himself and
the Government of Huy share in the transaction, as be would
also the Attorney and Solicitor-General. He was astonished
that such an affair should he construed into a conspiracy to
-defeat the ends of justice. The face was, that Rastelli had
been habitually the courier of the Milan Commission ,• be
was employed in brisiging over the first witnesses, and on
the adjournwient of their Lordship' House fur three weeks, it
haul been thought advisable to send him with dispatches to
Milan, in preference to a courier who was less acquainted
with the business sod the route. He was expected back be-
fore their Lordships would sit again. II was se erroneous
instance ofjodgmeot to send him away, bavlhe had no doubt
that the motive was a good one. It was sot for the purpose of
withdrawing him from justice, as had been assumed, but be-
cause he was the fittest persos fur the mission. As soon as
it was known that his presence. would be necessary, the At-
torney-General (as he understood, for he held it to be im-
proper for Slimmers to interfere) had dispatched another
cuseirr to bring him bark.
The Marquis of Laskdown admitted the explanation of
the Noble East on Isis own behalf; but it was use of the
evils id' the present must obnoxious measure, that it put
men of the Noble Earl's candour and honourable sincerity
in the sereseity of exculpation. He entirely acquitted the
Noble Earl amid the Government, of which he was a weather,
satiny participation in the fact which had just come out at
the bar of the Houk. But if it should be proved that, not-
withstartiling the ureter of Government, and the expressed
undertaking of the Noble Karl before the House, mid of the
Howe itself, that no witness should be withdrawn from the
consequencis of his perjury—if it should appear shut after
all thee,, the infsrior agents of this prosecution, wicked
and unprincipled as those agents might be, had contrived
so withdraw one of the must suspicious witnewee in a mo-
ment when his fusilier examination was likely to lead to the
most important re-wilts—was il fittiug that the effects sit
euch reelect should WI uu the Illustrious Accused, when the
party on whose MCCOU.III she was prosecuted could no
where he discovered, nor induced by any solicitation
so stand up nod own himself as the prosecutor? His
/Lordship was not saying now what might or might not
be elicited by the further examination of It sitelli ; hut
there was evidence before their Lordships which did go to
falsifying his lesihnotsy, and their Lordships had already
experienced the sashrantage e f having the witnesses ready to
he called bark if necessary. Was that an importaut consi-
derails's, or was it not'—bad it not been fumed important !
was it west important in the case of Majoechi, who had been
twiterecalled?—had it nut been of great importance on other
swessioes? The Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty bad
f mud it accessary to meal Wm. Carrington, to examine him,
not upon points which were in the seat remote degree connect-
oil widiaiwpwitoserlime before she Hoak, hat with referesee
to his wallow sail pm-suits before the time that the wits**
had arrived at misolesod. Ile had uotbiug to say against
this, which was slosibtlesss dictated by a proper motive. hut
what was he to lifer, when be saw, with this instance before
Mai, that mach a *duets us Rastelli hail been sent out of the
country? He ridiculs il the account so gravely given by
the Atiorney.Gesiesal of the transaction. He felt convinced
immediately that uo good reason could be given for it.—
Rastelli was In gu to Milan, forsooth, as • living testi-
mony, its satisfy the friend. of the witnesses that they were
all safe and in good health 1 The Noble Earl bad dealt in
a touch more handsome way, by admitting at once that
blame must attach, and dish attach to some miarter. His
Lordship cowhided by declaring it to be his conviction,
that the oily prop. r course fur their Lordship to take was,
to rive sip the inquiry at once.
The Lord Chancellor said, it appeared that Raskin had
horn sent away, but by whom did nut appear. Hail Mr.
Voile sent him away 1---(Mr. Mauls., who was standing
near the Cossissel, 1.. isle a Lion expressive of slissent.l-
-
His Lordship said, that by whomever it had leans dour, it
1 was, be moat say, a most ill-judged . If it had
l• been dictated by nay improper motive, it deserved the
sever, at reprehension; but if it hail been founded on msg-
. lake, no oppeobi 'taus terms should be applied to it. What
had now hews proposed? Why to call this pi risen, to the
bar' That could slot be done, though it Vf.41111111111'11111.114
that he shoold be forthcoming hereafter. He 1111141 say
(speaking his watiersests trify,as he had dose throughout be
whole proceeding) nest it would be impustible to place her
Majesty's case in the same All 11M1101,1 as if she witnees was
fnellsconsieg to he 111141 r1(411111111111 at their Lordship' bar;
and it would he fear their lassalaiiipe at a future day his cull-
cder that cierosotasice, sad to give the Illustrious l'ersou
' the most enlarged and liberal benefit of it. Were they to
close the peuceeiliege in their present state, no pram who
obese., well to pinto- justice could say flint the tlouse had
given that poseet ism .1. the Illustrious Personage must cow•
reined whadrehe ought to have. He thought in the situa-
tion of difficulty its which :he House were paced, they
tea& to proceed open the understesideig that the witness
walio be prodectil for examination at a fissure slay, read
thee it weals' be for their latolehip to give that fair awl
liberal alterrawee to the eircimedauce, that an vein...motels
eto delayed amid MO be so advantage...el to her Majesty as
if She oast's" were wow ti. Ise examosed, which on the ma-
i tweet considerate.* they might thine it d J.
The Eael of CartkelMia •SFl'l'.l 41111 the Noble and Learn-
ed Lord is the difficulties in which they were involved, but
he did not coarse !eh him in the upiu 00000 that tie person
who wished well to public justice could ',tense the proceeds
sip to slop where they were; for how del the cask NOW
011.1141! Her Mayessy's delence 11411 titan interrupted by the
absence of a moss material 'mitres..., and it WAY euisfeseed
shot eishatasatal justice Clll/lel 1101 1115 w he done. He asked,
thereftire. if they kid lint long riesneh outraged public feel.
sow swatted esessinun *ewe, sisal disgreced the country, by
tisleteng to i ibehley elects could not be (Plowed up to may-
p•articst purpose' It was now high link that they elsoulit
du juste, to 111. w-elves. There wag 'newt that a system of
s Violater whereat leis 1.111,1r11, Will the wiluef4a who was souse
maternity ea. es teeny to rafoie or eetablish the case, coati
not ima be poolutesl, without that prepasalites which the
Nolde sod Leareed Lind bud neknoeledgesl would render
hie u x millet esitaaiy ougatosy. He eelsosted their Lees....
Allies to 1.141.i11ef well before tie y preeetsl on the tnes%ure,
.Milo r. Meet that if the Rill could possibly pass that Hillier '
one !Le is Prove as popes before them, that there was not)
lb' slicliteal thence .1 its 'Meg through Ilse other House al
Pailt.tiaritt. III: cis ne•t ly press..l upon the House the cows
..peteral ttttt . that if they now yeti-aka in the , they
"mild ihrerere, meal pesbaps eisdanser the exisieuce of oar
moot t ICCellcigt 11.61101111111101. OM these grounds hr was re.
-Peed to ;oho We, wisp a it. Ho.ase—(thior, hear)—"P"
.1 ; 41111 fur the smockualice of that high (diameter whirls
tiny hail hitherto home, he sbould muss that the House do
adjemen to also. slay ases snmelbe.
The Loses! Cherrellur PRO, the Noble Lord bad mistaken
what he haul mold. Ile bad out slated that the House cuiJal
nut our do snlidential justice.
lord Ellesthurougb said he had understood the Noble twd
Learned loud to leave stalesl, sot that substaotial iota-see

Could not now be door, but that it was impossible to place
her Majesty's case in fhe same situation as if Rimelll went
then to be called to the bar. Such being the situation id
which they were placed, Asa was the prupuajtion of the
Noble Berl ? That in contradiction to every idea orjusticr,
injuriously to her Majesty's tioaracier; and contrary to that
tisane which it was their ditty to pursue, they should now
stop their proceedings. When their Lo►dships should come
to the final consideration of the proceedings, there would be
two quest' for their consideration. The first would be,
Guilty or Not Guilty; the second question, which be con-
sidered to he totally distinct, would be, whether uu the evi-
dence before them they would pass the Bill. He had always
held the opinion that their Lordrhips would never pass the
Hill bat upon evidence so clear, so unsuspicious, so coll-
'Weis% That it would be impossible for the House, wills any
regard to It■ character, to decline passing it. It might be
possible that the evidence given would not be sufficient to
indoor their Lordships to pass the Bill, but yet might nut
be sufficient to hold her Majesty entirely innocent. What
he wished was te hear all the evidence, when her Majesty's
Innocence might be made manifest, or if the Bill passed, it
stook! Ire upon the moral conviction of her
The Earl of Darnley thought there was another question
Winch ought to be asked of her Majesty's Counsel, which
was, whether is their opinion ■ay injury would arise to her
Majesty's case if their Lordships should please to stop the
proceedings at that moment.

Earl Grey said, that notwithstanding what had fallen from
the Noble and Learned Lord, it seemed to him that they
*ere really placed in a situation in whir* according to the
Noble and Learned Lord's own sbewingOilsbataniial justice
could not be dose. He has stated that by the abstraction
of the witueas an injury may he done to her Majesty's de-
truce which it would be impossible altogether to repair. If
her Majesty was so deprived of those means at present, oc-
casioniug an injury to her case which uothing to be here.
after duns could repair, how could it he said that rub-
■tanfial justice could will be done'—(Hear, hear, hear.)--
He telt fully all the disadvantages of Interrupting the de-
fence before it was eoucluded, and perhaps he wished his
Noble Friend would not persevere io his motion; but if he
did, be would be ()Mired, however reluctantly, to assent to
that proposition. An the examiustion would go to the con-
tradiction of testimony, no mace could say, that, if taken here-
after, it would be the same after every opportunity of learn-
ing all that had passed in that H.)1111f, which it would have
been had the witness been called up without any prepara-
tion. He would not go the length of raying iliere bad Men
a 'vitriol of subornation, but it was in proof that Has.
tells Lad been most extensively engaged in proeisring evi-
dence. He had offered one witness money, who bad in.
formed another, nod that one had told a third, describing
exactly what had appeared very likely to pioduce such tea-
lint.my as they had beard about thestatues of Adam and Eve.
Glider such suspicious, if the *opens could have been pro-
duced before lie had beets prepared, the conspiracy, if it
existed, might have been discovered ; and if from the cir-
ciernstauce of delay, that could not be .lone hereafter, then
be must say that in leis °pluton they were so placed, that if
bia Noble Friend persevered in his motion, it most have
his 'support. It was impossible to bear the facilitated with-
out condemning the measure, and the Noble and Learned
Lord haul done himself tin more than justice by censuring
it. He could nut join in the mild epithet of "
judged," which the Noble and Learned Lord haul bestowed
open► it, but be would say it was most mischievous. From
the nature of the ease, the person, whoever he was, could
not but know the lammingy of keepiuZ the wiluevor lest be
should be called for. If st were necessary to keep 'securely
one witness more than smother, from the nature of his mean-
natiou in duet and his cross-examination, any person conver-
sion with Courts of Justice could out but know that Rests-Ili
was that wituess. The Noble Earl opposite bad rested uu
his character to shield him from any imputation on account
of the abseuce of she witness, and he (Earl Grey) would
give bin all that credit which his high character no well de.
served. When the Noble Earl had given his pledge ■t the
ceimmencemes►t ut the proceedings, that the witnesses should
be funk-winner, the House gave credit to that assurance, and
rested upon it wish implicit faith. Hut if after having gives
that pledge the Noble Earl finds himself in the situation that
those pe►sons who were bound to know that pledge, and the
will of the House, had, notwithstanding, paid nu regard to
either, he wished to kuuw whether the House could de-
pend upon it in future, when they found the Noble Earl's
agents acting in defiance of it by sending out of the country
a volisieas so materiality the one its question? Flow we-re the
Counsel for the Querii placed by this circumstance' they
had doubtless relied upon the Noble Earl's lice, and
hail calculated to bring up again any witness they might
ask for. On the whole, it did seem to him that the House
were placed by the forfeiture of that assurance (lie meant
nothing dieters/ace-HSI to the Noble Earl) inn situation in
which they could not render complete justice, and if it were
asked him whether the proceeding should continue o► not,
he must say that it should not continue. A Noble buil
(Elleoloorungh) had spokes. o f two question■ for the con.
sideration of the House hereafter, but on a proceeding of
the present nature-, he thought it impossible to separaie
the considerations tinder the two heads he had staled.
Il wan upon time aggregate of the evidence that their decision
must ultimately be founded.
_ _

The F.arl of Liverpool—My Lords, 1 will just say a few
words in answer to what has been said on the other side,
because, if the quest" was this, that in consequence of a
measure to whirls we have just now referred, substantial jus-
tice mistd not he dune to her Majesty, 1 should agree with
tue Noble Earl that the proceedings ought to be suspended
alloy the,. My Na.tile and Learned Friend on the Wool-
sack did nut say that substantial justice mold not be dune
to her M ijesty ; what he Paid was, that in consequence of
this event, it might, by possibility, prove favourable to her
Majesty ; and he exemplified it in this way (and 1 lake the
reasoning to be correct), namely—that you will be b.oind
to give her Maj •<ty the full benefit, as far as she is comment.
ed, of all the evidence that knight hi 11f911,111t to impeach the
credit of Rastelli, though by possibility the conduct of
Rade'', if here, ought be explained, and in a satisfactory
way. I will assume, for argument sake, that there has been
au improper proceeding at Milan, hot with regard to the evi-
dence we have heard to day, though as affecting Rastelli it is
of the most serious nature, yet, I say, as to all the others
connected with the Commission, so tar from there tieing
any thing imprope►, I think it is rather the reverse; hilt
certaisily nothing against them. However, I will assume,
my Lords, that the proceedings of the Commissioners ism
improper—stall, my Lords, the case does not stand on that
lestimony--still it is possible, on the other evidence of the
ease soreosoected with this—upon evidence which never was
at SI thos—mpon evidence which sin being at Milan ever saw—
by evidence who have had nu mimic:dim with Rastelli` or
■ay herb, of lint description ; it is po &ell possible that
sucks case might be made out on that evidence, mud that this
Manse will be I ttttt sid io duty to pronounce her Majesty
guilty of the charges. My Lords, then, I maintain that the
argument of the Noble Loral is completely erroneous; for it is
nut a question wheilo r anbstartial pieties caunot be dune•—.
it may he dune; anal, in fart, this very circumstance may be
the 'neatly of turning the case very much to her Majesty's fa.
you/. My Lords, 1 ask you. this, and I put this question to
you, whither, without going back, without any retrospect of
the state in which this case now is—with the evidence Nought
forward out the part of the accusation—with evidence
brought forward on the part of the defence—liittweat let
that evidence Ise •ttended to in all its effectr, would it be
possible, consistent with bee Majesty's character and honour,
141 saispenil shear proceedings?—( Hear, hear.)—Wolii.l it be
possible, I say, to satisfy tire public mind, or eh) substantial
ju•sace, by leaving •stell a case without sonic &emu on it?
And I here may say, iii an►wer to the Noble Lord who spoke
lasi, amid of those who are acting with hien, and the Baron
who spoke before bins, that *ldere, ought to he done tin
this measure, your landships can never rightly decide it till
you bare heard the vitiator the cane. It is nut the castor' the
part of the accusation only, but it is the evidence ist support
of the accusatieu, and the evidence on behalf of the laurel,
and the whole evidence of Ilse ease, that eau bring you to a'
right couclitaims. I have no difficulty in stating, that what-
ever question arises in soy stage of this business, that you
owe it to the Queen—you owe it to the country—you owe it
to the Irmo° of the country—Pot to ►brink from the owes-
Hon, twbether the preamble of the Bill is proved or wt.
I think it right to say now, without anticipating tkut which
I admit tolte a separofe qtrentionobst &Amid think it the
now/ unfoetitnate, the moat iH.judged, and mom imprudent
course that eiteld be adopted, "wady, that Foe avoid cc.

deaeour Jp amojbey the qeestlioo of pilly or one guilty,
with tboowestion etpedilaey and potiey. 1 have already
said, that if I thought this wouhl•riefeat the ends of sub.
Manual jostice--end I cannot see how it ran defeat the ends
•of Pumicer fur you will Ire without the explanidow of Rats-
lent, mill therefore it will be more is f of the Chown—
yet, if I thought it, would defeat the ends ofierarjr-e, I would
agree with the Noble' Earl that the proceediogs should be
stopped. Only one word more, my Lords and with refer-
ence to the observation which has been snide by the Nuhle
Lord uppeaite, I do admit most completely, that if Reettelli
was Pent away fur the purpose of withdrawing a witness, it
would be a most iniquitous act ; but I coescientionaly thick
that the individual who viii it, hail nu intention of doing it
• for that purpose. I belie ire it was not done iss • way to de-
serve the name of iniquitous.
The Earl of Lait.lerdate—l commit but state to the Howse
my ferlisigs as to what has passed in the course of the day.
A proposition bris been submitted to the Homo% on which
its tumour depend' With respect to what has been stated
by my Noble Friend (Earl Grey) as to what was stated by
the Learned Priam, ein the Woolasek, be email call it no.
thing but a complete miarepeesentatiou. I cannot conceive
how it is possible that any body roeilil have undershoot the
Noble Lord us the Woolsack to have said hist if Itsetelli
was not forthcoming, substantial justice could nut he done
her Majesty ; on the contrary, he stated, that it was • eir-
emestance which would, most probably, prove favourable to
her. The preparation sow fur your Lnrilships• consideration
is this, that after the whole of the evidence in support of the
Bill has been brought forwards, and when one batf of her
Majesty's defence is gone jute, to stop the Bill, becanwe there
is no remedy of • special act, it appeair to me that
it would be the greatest art of Homier towards haw Majesty
so to do. My Lords, when you hail heard ell the evidence
against her Majesty, it was said by my Noble Friends in the
House, that it was an mreerions thing to Beak of adjourn-
ing the House. Now they state it is in her Majesty's favour
foe your Lordships to hear one part of her &retire only. I
say, Vaud' • propositiou had been made by any person who
might be supposed to be farcurable he this Bill, it would
have been said to have been a proposition more atrocinor
than was ever heard of. 1 do not see hew we ran say, be..
cause Re...hill has been improperly carried away, that her
Majesty shall be precluded from bringing before this Worse
the other half of her detester. When we are to suppose her
Majesty has such a case as will make every one of your
Lordships think het innocent, how can we aliendein it,
•nd say that she shall Wit he allowed to preeinee the
other half of her testimony P You are here, my Lore:s, to
consider the interests 4.f the public. N..w I desire to know
if you are to 1w called to the tribunal of the politic, what
you will do Why, says the country, lIIIW tenure it that
when her Majesty only came to half of her defence, you
stopped her when she emelt have removed any stigma which
might remain on her conduct ? I want to kneew what the
conothes of Europe would say—what any inelersenelent.
miuded mall would say if you do not hear the either half?
Is there any vile believes at ilea moment that Itastelles but.
sine's is the effect of a deep-laud conspiracy ? Is it a car.
cumstance that can satisfy any man that that is enough why
her Majesty should be deprived of our-half of her defence
Lord Morley said, that it was important to the feeling.
and honour of the country that the truth or fahwhoud of the
allegation stated in the preamble of the Bill should be
known. He said that he knew of no nu vie tome to nicer.
lain the truth than u Irgislat eve inquiry, and hh, ie foe it
was for that reason he gave lii• Ville for it. He- ....treated
the NotreoLord not tee persist in his mutton till ihr *bole of
the proctledinos should by enecludell. It uas potable that
the 'blew* of this man might prove very favourable to her
Majesty, therefore he thought the best way would be for the
Learned Counsel fur the Oilers' to proceed in their -defence.
Lord Alvanley—My Lords, after what I have hewed at
your Lorilahips' b ir, I should nut thick it proper to proceed
any further till we have some explanation. I wish therefore
to know, who the person was who sent the witness away!
The arl of Liverpool—lt was Mr. Powell.
Several voices—" Of the Milan Commission."—(Cries of
IS Order, order.")
The Fart of Liverpael—Yes.
. _

Lord Carnarvon--I have been applied to to witheliaw my
motion, but I have substituted in the place of it a motion Io
which no answer Ina been made, and to which, in point of
justice, I suppose no Noble Lord will object, comely, that
a question might be put to her Majesty's Counsel, whether
the immediate measure of kastelli nut being forthcoming is,
in their opinion, hurtful to her Majesty Na Noble Lord
has said that it was objectionable, and that we should not
hear her Majesty's Counsel with respect to this guest cause
at our bar, especially after having heard the Noble Earl
opposite, sad the Noble Earl on the croes.bench
that it is to the Queen'a interest. That motion I persist in,
that Counsel be called iu, and your Lordships will then he
better able to judge than I sun ; but even then, though I am
ready to state that nothing can alter my opinion, not even
the speech of Counsel, that we, for our own sakes, and for
the sake of our country, ought not lir proceed in this case
further. Yet, my Lords, I shall he guided by what I hear as
to the motion I shall make with deference to your Lord-
ships. One word more let me add. When the Noble Earl
on the emu...bench has said, that if we put an end to this we
shall not satisfy public feeling, I deny it ; the public and
public feeling has given an opinion out this proceeding
(near, hear, hear .—The public, I say, gave an opinion, a
decided opinion, the first day soil the first hour they knew
that it was to be di:cusscol. The motion than is, " That
that question should be put to the Counsel, and that we
should bear then, as to the importance attic measure."
Earl of Blesinton—My Lords, a Noble Friend of mine
has, I think, very properly asked who the person was who
sent the witness away, and the Noble Furl, with bis usual
candour, has stated it to hi Mr. Harrell. I happen to he
personally acquainted with that gentleman, and I should be
sorry that sum impression was made in the Howie and the
country, that it was possible, because he was our of the
Aldan COMlliiSriUllerl, that he could possibly be employed to
Ise a party iu a conspiracy. I re4ret as much as ray man
that perhaps knows him that lie had any thing to say with
the Milan Commission. lam sorry for it fur many reasons.
I am sure if there is a conspliaryit is one to impose on him,
for I am sure that he is not wilfully a party to it.
Lord Alvonley explained.
. . . _

Lord Holt:suet—. My Lords, I owe it to myself, and I
owe it to the Noble Earl opposite, to assure the Noble
Earl, that at the time of making the remark, and before he
had delivered his Breech to the House on this subject, that I
did not believe that he was directly or indirectly • party to
it. I founded the opinion, that it could not be fa um that
character which he has upheld so lout ; and though I stn
placed in political hostility to the Noble Lord on rosily times,
yet I am sure that there is, neither on this side of the House
ur the other, a man with more himuurable feelins. Hone.)
—I acqiiitted the Noble Lord then, and now, after what he
has stated, I dist iectly acquit him of any participation in any
thing like conspiracy—still, my Lords, my feelisgs on the
subject are exactly and distinctly !hesitate, and though I ac-
quitted the Noble Lord of any thing like conspiracy, I
confess after hearing his speech, and after giving • few
minutes calm reflection on the subject, I do think that the
Noble Lord has been oecasiunally during the whale of this
inquiry making undertakings, and promising more to this
House than he has been able to perform. I say this, because
the Noble Earl has stated distinctly !bat this proceeding has
been culpable. My Lords, if the Noble Earl, when he was
asked it lie thought he could prevent the witnesses from
being sent out of the country, hail said, I have not the power
by the Constitution' of the country to keep them within the
realm, and if he had further said, there are subordinate agents
over whom I have no control, or wkom I believe will nut
attenJ to that control; my Lords, iu that ease, I do con.
tend your Lordships would have come to • resolution very
different front that which you did. Your Lordships dial nut
take into your own bands the extrentiou of that design, but
you left it upon the assurance that the Noble Earl would do
as much as possibly could be done to prevent any such
event. My Lords, I believe that the Noble Earl has dome
all that he ibuught it necessary to do. He may have done
all that it was possible fur him in his situation to do ;
hut the thing that time House required to be dour has nut
been duae, therefore we arc placed row in that sitaislioa,
op Mitch I would not cavil us words, as to whether sob.
Hantial justice can be done or not, or whether ber Majesty's
defence will be isjured, but the Court cannot perform that
which my Noble Friend states we are called oar and ex-
horted to do by the Secret Cousrnittee—we cannot proceed
to inquire late the psoceedlopt with a satisfactory Mel*.

Outk•—•Cß'ear, keter.).4fy Noble. Friend on the cross beach,
, irllll Ciotti, as I iftiotehtlfeicellent qutlities, I au eat I t say I
differ with hies on alI orenailias with Move NM than any
other Noble Lord, fry.. his ristreine good humour and km&
any interested manlier in which
fi▪ t
miry expeenif:lll6 VOW*, it makes it no further pain
than the didereace one bas Cor ill. judgnout. Sly
' Noble Priem,' says, tint it wield Ire the gr.terse joins-
ties tri her Majesty now slop. I confess, my lairds. that
I am made of e• sterner muff" Ilinti my Learned Friend soi
these occasions, fur I have beret ready from the err) rion-•
meneernent to sash the Bill, at any periml end at any time,
away.--.(Near, 'freer )—Su, sty Lords, if the motion bad
been persiated in, I certainly should love given a rote for
plotting an toil to the proceeding at once. li is said le ill
he a great injoodiese I. bee Nlkieety to slop the premed.
begs. The person. now say, who air so incjadichirialp asizioas
for the honour of the Queen, and that justice wad 'stereo
MIN be deem her, that to slop thew proceedings would be
isjustiee to her. Now I conceive our duty Oslo eloatijoative
10 NO one, !nil look to tiothiu; noire than our own cha-
racter. My Noble Friend (Lord Lauderdale; say% that be
never heard of such a thing as stopping prertiredines—he
never heard of a person (wing mounded, I date say, fur
want of sufficient evidence; hot does my Friend WM. 111/
say, that he know. of tin Matinee of the breakiwg.np of a
proceeding, in eonseq of some irregular proceeding on
the part of the sopporters of il, without hearing the whole,
and without roisiug to an opia 00000 of Guilty or Not Guilty?
The Noble tart over the way (Liverpool) says. that no ease
can be decided on without the formal 11111111111111 C-U au.: saying.,
Duihy or Not Guilty. If a man is arena ii of murder, I'
may in the course of the proceedings Caine out that be is
guilty of a crime of a different complexion. Ile has 'lie ad-
vantage of the declaration Guilty or Not Guilty, and if
there NI one single item, ore single proem/lotion wrong,
he has a direct mid complete acquittal. We were
told that this was the advantage on this °cession ;
thought it was en advantage, I agreed that le want
but I thought it was eso fouodali 0000 , or coherent of
the measured I thought it an advantage on the per.
somptioa of guilty, but I doomed it Done on the ore.altlPltoll
of innocence. Now, my Lords, site word un another subj. ct,
and I trust that I am as little disposed to deal in aspersions
as any man in this House. Bret, my Lord., I recollect an
expression of a Learned Lord, whom the Noble and Learn.,
ed Lord on the Woolsack has succeeded, Namely, my Lord
Thierlow, which was this:—" I will not take Ray notice of
any persons, my Lords, on this occasian, because I know if
any one makes any ob inns ma Ito continct of any ;Im-
am is any office, however seiborilinate, nue lays ones self
open to hear a panegyric on all the perms. of that office,
and to all the peramis conueetral teeth the persons of
that office." My Noble and la:wiled Frond (the Earl
of Blesinion) says, he knows the character of the person
was so excellent, that it must have been an error of
judgment. The Noble Lord opposite was called apnea
to name the person, and it turned out that he was a per.
ion employed under Governmene it. the Commis.
sion, and all men who serve cooler Goveriernrist are 'Wilsons,
kind, and tvirey thing that is excellent, atiii theoefore of
course ibis persist. was so.—(Lord larghiags`,—Now Ibis
Rastelli was tomtit the pertains employed by the Milan Goo-
mission, and I wish your Lordships to recollect that the
Noble Lord says the Queen has advantages—that she has
advantages, gild allowances shall be made. Allowances of
what ? Does the Noble and Learned Loll mean to say,
that whets Rastelli is brought bark that we are to
hear his evidence le that the allowance ? For what
be was wanted was not merely a contratlicei 0000 s.f !Oa
testimony—(Hear, hear:—it wits to a conspiracy and a
connexion with the Milan Commission, as connected with
that conspiracy, whether true or not I will not sty. I ran-
not say that Rastelli not bring forthcoming would incline
the Noble Lord to make such an allowance as to come to
the cattichesion that there was proof of a general conspiracy
proved. He conld not have meant to say that, and if
be did not be says nothing; because it is possi-
ble, by briugiug Rastelli now imineili•tely and colonial-
ing him to the wiliness at your landships' bar, that
a conspiracy might be proved, though I ant not say-
ing it would. If it were proved ehat there has horn
bribery, and that perjuries have beets impoited in whole
cargoes, does any man say that your Lordships erneilet nut
immediately get rid of the Bill ?—(Load crier of " Mar,
hear.'?—Dues the Noble and Learned Lord mean thalehe
Queen should have all the advantages of one immediate exeunt-
nation at the bar ? if not he means nothing. In what anus.
lion are we now placed' We are placed in a situation in
which we cannot go un withont the possibility at least of
substantial justice being denied. To the accused it may, I
admit, operate advantageously; it may induce men to give
a latitude to their vote, which they otherwise would not
give. That is always true, but that is always upon the
supposition of guilty. If her Majesty had been guilty,
she might have gained some advantage from it. I put
a case, that she has it its her power to lay open the
whole of this conspiracy, and of bringing it home to the
ronviciion of every emu in the House that it is so. I then
seared up, not even in merry to the Qinum, not in conse-
quence of any wish of the Queea's Counsel, but l staled op
and say, that if we go on, we cannot lay our hands upon
our hearts and say, that we are quite sure we hare dune jos-
tler. Vie are uot following the dictation of the Cum.
mittee, because we are now placed by our ladies in • very
awkward situalion. My Lords, your Lordships might have
placed the witnesses in the custody, and under the protec-
tion of the House. It might have been a harsh and tucon.
venient measure, but it would have Dien a reasonable Übe,
front the circumstances of the ease. &lore we did so, we
asked the Noble laird on ate other side, whether be had any
thing to suggest on that subject, and he said he would do
all in his power; now it appears that one of the witnesses is
not forthcoming, and if this is justice, justice is very crook-
ed and narrow. IJo think, if any allowance is given, it
must be to that which is the marrow and soul of the whole
proceeding."
Lord Erskine—Although I have been at all limes ready
to vote since the commencement of ibis proceeding to pet
an end to this Bill, I have now an additional reason after
what has happened to-day. However, if my Noble Friend
withdraws his motion, I move your Lot tiniiips that that
question which hat been suggested be put to the Counsel at
the bar now, that they nosy have an opportunity of consi-
dering of it by to•morrow.
Earl Grey--1 should wish Mr. Powell lo be called to ac.
count for this proceeding.
The Lord Chancellor—lt is now half-past four, and I
should think your Lordships would think it better to adjuuru
tilt to-morrow.

East Grey said, he thought it was very material that be
should be examined sow.
John Allau Newell was then sworn.

Lxamined by Earl Grey—l would first of all ask Mr.
Powell, if be was employed in the Milan Comniissum ' I
was.

Are you at primal an neat in support of the Bill? lam
assisting the agents in support of the Bill.
Were you present in this Court at the examination of
&went? I was.

Have you sent Rastelli out of the country? It was I
who recommended Hastelb should be sent.

To whom did you snake the reconinie
mended it to the Foreign Office.
Was it at the Foreign Office you reco
be sent ? Yes, as courier._ .

rum I recover.
ended be should

Did you get a passport for that purpose ? 1 did not.
Who did du nut know.
Bet you applied to the Foreigu Office, and recommended
that he should be sent ? If you will allow me I will give an
explanation. Rsatelli had been the courier who had con-
ducted a great number of winsome* to Dover; them wit-
nesses had been maltreated by the populace at Dover, and
they were afterwards scut back.
Were pita them? I understood it was so from Rastelli.
I learut that various reports were propagated m Italy, on
the darer, which the witnesses for lb. Bill received by com-
ing over to this toiletry ; 1 had heard that report■ were pro.
pagated to Italy that they had received great personal
jury; l bad beard that the families of thong. perm's,' alio
were Isere were exceedingly emulous on the snhjrct of 'heir
relitioes vibe Were is this country; I had understood
lumen' was acqu•intediwith the greater part of the fami.
lies of these perilous; and I thought it would be an art
of humanity to those Matinee soil frimsds, that some
permit, who had sees. the whole of those witnesses in this
country, and who was acquainted with those families, should

go 0... r there with letters from ,h' wilne ; 410 he h.,.
lug h,mrell been ao eye-ostasss ut slur sr satiny heir, tips he
should report to thous familloa what slu I. situations really
esere—pby that no•atis to pat ass rod to she great Anxiety
which I thought those families muwt useeesparily feel for their
(muds
Goring tint to be your upiniou, ifi.l you Hot Imo. titigakv
Minding Kaaselli out of the tours. v otos orating it impoosihtp
to estimsue him here un the solsecs
Linde, pt the time Ita•ls 14 was .rat away, ..loch I thersle slap
on she Tioutoslay or Friday •forr the adjoureitn. us of Ifs.
Howe, I Contrived slim there was ample little Cu his sr-
taro before anis atsels us CAel.enet►aldjost.oclisios
to Itartella, as far Ir. I nrcull.Tr, were, this' he was I.• retnfn
hereon or before the 3d of Z)etulter, pod at the
lelli tt•itt, I b.rd a fifth CUIIIiCiIUIS ON nil mind that tic would
lksniti tel

IThout did you re at the Fareige-Ofire t T..l.rr Mr.
P3oola or lAMr I Mil tN•I Crash" .141ebsi t+
wl..:m 1 sigard that Ra.telli was to be arm' a. even l r.

Dia yoo. state to the penologist tbe Foreigo.filiice. who-
ever they might tw, 111.1 t Kertelli last beets f zoom.• tl a*
witness on this 11:11' Idu awl metalled to bare 'limit 'we
1.1101 Otitelllrtlt.

Did elate who he was! I behest it wis rifilt's
known who Iv. was.

thee you Iw4 soy eommer•katio• front .Bich ynee thtao
it lendable be will be sorra in England! lam nut aware of
on) reasons; positive directions have hero sent, and ad
Means shall he used to make hint etc, hi re.
%Theo were those directives *rut They hate been
Iwo) or three limes; the last aro sru t ou SAlurJoy or Suaitt”;
the mast positive slireetiont.
HA any answer keen received from the bre) I 1:s.1
Iwo ut that Itastelli had for some do yr barn vloStmt It ill o I
confined to bed, hating been bltia.lril by some meslieal
man fur a fever.