The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-17 00:00:00

CHURCH RATES.

measure. (Hear, bear.) The hon. gentleman then
stated the outline of a bill he intended to have brought
in, until he heard that the Archbishop of Canter-
bury had given notice of a bill in the other
house, and he remarked, in continuation, that he could
not abandon the principle that every person in this coun-
try was bound to assist in keeping the Church of England
in repair. (Hear.) They appeared to be arguing the
question, not as if they belonged to our country, but as
if from their belonging to different denominations they
' were of different nations. The Church of England was
not the Church of a party, but the Church of the
country, and he did not consider the Church could be in
better hands than that of the bishops, and, as a layman,
he had no wish to take the cause out of their hands.
The 4th and sth sections of the present bill would have
the effect of causing Dissenters to pay church rates in
the shape of pew rents, the churchwardens having
power by those clauses of apportioning seats to whom
they thought proper, and of proceeding against them
for the recovery of the rents. The hon. gentleman then
took a review of the different petitions that had been
presented on this subject, and drew from them generally
the inference that they were adverse to the bill of the
hon. bart., and in favour of the measure that had lately
been introduced in another place by the Archbishop of
Canterbury. If the bill of the hon. hart. passed he be-
lieved the best dity of England would have passed
away, and her name as a re!igious nation would be
among the things that were forgotten. (Hear, hear.)
The n. gentleman sat down by proposing his amend-
ment.

of doing more than anything else to►cards facilitating
its settlement. The hon. gentleman denied that this
was a Dissenters' questi.,u, but that of a Churchman's,
and was satisfied the voluntary system would be found

to answer every purpose.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he fully concurred
with those who had expressed their opinions that it was
most desirable the question should be settled, but it was
one thing to express a feeling or wish that a great gees-
tion should be settled, and another either to form in one's
own mind the mode by which a satisfactory settlement
could be obtained, or to adopt at once any proposal pro-
fessing to settle the question. The statements made by
hon. members, both in favour and against the bill, showed
that this was a question surrounded with great difficulties,
and that various attempts had been made for many years
by individual members of the house and Government to
settle it in a manner satisfactory to all parties concerned.
They had been reminded that these various attempts bad
more or less failed, and that it was on that ground that
the hon. baronet the member for the' Tower Hamlets
proposed the present measure. As a member of the
Government, he (Lord Paltnerston) could not think he
would be performing his duty it he were to go headlong
in support of a particular mode of arriving at a given ob-
ject unless his mind was satisfied it would accomplish
the purpose for which it was intended, either by the pro-
bability of its passing into a law, and the likelihood if it
did that it would accomplish the healing process it was
intended to perform. Looking at the present bill, he
most say he could not see in it either of these two fea-
tures. When talking of measures which deeply affected
Mr. L. DAVIS seconded the amendment. No less the great interests, and lie might almost say the universal
than 857 of all the parishes in the kingdom had given in feeling, of the country, they must consider whether the
their adhesion to the Church of England, and against measure brought under discussion was likely to pass into
the bill of the hon. baronet. (Hear, hear.) He believed a law, and doing that he did not think the measure now
if the bill of the hon. baronet passed, it would make the proposed was one likely to receive the sanction of both
members of the Church of England feel the same senti- houses, neither did he think- it contained within itself
manta of dislike to the Dissenters that it was said the those arrangements for providing for the support of the
Dissenters at present felt to them. (Hear, hear.) He fabrics of the Church which would be sufficient for their
thought, before the bon. baronet attempted to put an maintenance in a proper manner. It had been asserted
end to the machinery on this subject at present exist- in the course of the debate that the religious feeling of
ing, he had better study the sentiments supposed to the country might be relied on for the due support of
have been expressed by Mrs. Glass—namely, first to the fabrics of the Church. That it would be so in many
catch your bare, and then to cook it (laughter) parishes he (Lord Palmerston) had no doubt, but he
because he firmly believed the whole tenour of the was also apprehensive that in many parishes it would
honourable baronet's bill was founded in pure de- not be the case. He could not altogether consider
lesion, and never could be carried into effect. (Hear.) that these ancient fabrics which were portions of the na-
But should its enactments be carried into effect—which tional property, and had existed for centuries, could be
God forbid—that Church which they had been in the placed in the same category with those places of reli-
habit of entering with reverence would become a ruin, gious worship which had sprung up in more recent
because it would be found impossible to relieve it from times, and from the manner of their construction not
the disgrace caused by this measure, or raise the neces- only less expensive in their erection, but also more
nary funds for its future support. (Hear.) He objected easily and cheaply kept in efficient repair, that it would
to the mode of worship by different religious bodies be for the credit and honour of the country any more
being brought into this question, as it had been by the than for the advantage of religion that these fabrics
hon. baronet. Another objection he had to the hon. should be allowed to go into decay. The clues-
baronet's bill was that, instead of its giving increased tion resolved itself into two heads between which
accommodation in churches to the poor, it would limit there was a marked distinction. Church rates
that accommodation. (Hear.) He thought that, know- were applicable to two purposes, one portion to be ap-
ing the diversity of feeling that existed upon this subject plied to the ministration of worship, and the other to the
throughout the country, the Ministers of the Crown ought maintenance of the fabric, and he thought one of the
to have come forward and brought in a public measure defects of the present bill, and the many plans that had
on the subject. (Hear.) He would venture to say been suggested was, the not keeping a sufficient distinc-
that if that course had been adopted by the Government tion between the two. He could quite understand, and
under the direction of the noble viscount at the head of make allowance for that religious feeling which rendered
affairs, he would have secured for himself a reputation persons not belonging to the Church averse, from con-
that would not easily have been tarnished or passed scientions,feelings, to contribute to the ministration of
away. (Hear, hear.) The principal parties interested a worship of which they did not partake. He thought
in the bill of the hon. baronet were the landed proprie- that feeling was one requiring no explanation, and for
tors, because, should this measure pass, the result would which it would not be difficult to make a pro-
be that they would one and all raise their rents. In vision that should relieve them from that necessity.
conclusion, he deprecated this species of legislation, be- He thought there was much force in the argument that
cause it was calculated for a time to unsettle in- ,these churches were national property, and viewing them
stitutions that had existed for ages ; but that as national fabrics for the worship of God he thought
it could ever be permanent he had great doubt. (Hear.) they ought to be maintained. (Hear.) At the same
The hon. member looked with great satisfaction upon the time, if it was possible to devise a scheme to provide for
amendment of his hon. friend, and most cordially seconded the churches of the country, and not offer violence to
it. those who differed from the Church, he for one should
Mr, COWPER said he did not agree with his hon. not object to the introduction of such a measure. As
friend (Mr. Davis) who had just sat down when he said for the present measure, considering it did not
that he considered church rates the essential fawn lation provide sufficiently for the purpose chalked out,
of the national church, and that before they were re- he could not give it his support. (Hear.). It was
pealed it would be expedient and proper to begin by abo- said the Government ought to introduce some measure
lishing the national church. On the contrary, he (Mr. upon the subject. His reply to that was that Government
Cowper) thought that the present state of the law of in former years had undertaken that task, but their pro-
church rates, instead of being a fundamental advantage, posals had failed to obtain the assent of Parliament or
was a great disadvantage to the Church, because ;t was a the great body of men who felt an interest in them.
state of things which almost invited in every parish (Hear, hear.) He would say further that, upon the sub-
where any difference of opinion existed contests and ject the Government had no proposals to make that
strife—a state of things which induced enmity and hos- would aid any effect to the measure of the hon. baronet
tility towards the Establishment on accouetof its own ope- the member for the Tower Hamlets. Indeed he could
rations, and could not therefore be regarded otherwise not even propose a measure as a substitute for it,
than as an evil. At the same time it was not at all proper and such being the case, he was bound most
that a state of the law should exist in connection with reluctantly, as far as he was personally concerned, to
the Church which could not be enforced, and which bad say be could not support the bill, but must give it his
now been clearly held to be without due and proper opposition, thinking that persons in his position ought
means of enforcement. But whilst be thought it would not to give support to any measure unless they were
be desirable and conducive to the interest of the Church clearly convinced than it was beneficial to the interests
that such a change in the law as would bring it into of the community at laige.
accordance with the alteration of circumstances which Mr. BALL rose amid loud cries of divide—He was
had arisen since that law was made, he believed that sorry to hear from the noble lord at the head of the
since the memory of man it had been an obligation on. Government that they had no measure to bring forward
the parishioners to maintain and repair the fabrics of the on the subject. He thought, considering the debt the
Church. In early times, when parishioners were accus- Church owed the Dissenters, they ought to be met in a
toured to frequent their Church, nothing could be more fair spirit, which the course now proposed to be pursued
rational—but the change which had occurred since was totally at variance with. He did not support the
that day, and the indifference which was maui- bill because he thought it would be detrimental to the
fested towards the parish churches ha.l rendered Church, but because he felt convinced it would benefit it.
some modification desirable, as many of the parishes Lord SEYMOU Et would net have addressed the house
formed at that period in ie districts so divided con- but for the statements made by the noble lord at the
slated of parts of the country so thinly populated that head of the Government. T4iat speech, instead of ad-
the parishes so parcelled out were very large. Since vancing this question, was calculated to throw it back
then, increase of population hal brought with it an in- for years. (Hear) Last year the noble lord at the 10-ad
crease of parishes, . whilst the powers of extending of the Colonial Department had stated that the Govern-
churches had not been carried on by a fresh division and !tient proposed to settle this question, but the noble lord
subdivision of parishes, but by building district churches at the head of the Government had stated that day that
within the mother parishes, such as were separate, cede- the present Government had no such intentions—(hear,
siastically speaking, but nevertheless remained a portion hear)—and that the question must now be considered as
of the original parish. Those people who attended the an open one, all the members of the Government
new churches in these parishes, objected, of course, te pay- acting as they pleased. (Hear, hear.) All that might
ing towards those old churches in addition to what teey be very well, but it must not be forgotten
subscribed to their own places of worship. So that the that on the hustings the members of the Government.
obligation to support the parish church, which was so had advocated suer rueaeures as the present for the sake
natural and obvious when first established, had become of popularity, but within the house they had done all in
unnatural and inconvenient, and by no means in con- their power to (lea at them. (Hear, hear.) He thought
sonance with the feelings of the public. (Hear, hear.) that seine member of the Government ought to state to
He thought, therefore, if a measure was proposed which the house what the real object and intention of the Go-
would still impose the obligation on those who fie- vernment were in a far more eear and defined way than
quented parish churches to support those churches hid been adopted by the noble viscount.
alone, and at the same time would render it compulsory The house then divided when the numbers were :
on others to support the churches they attended the oh- Ayes 217
jection would cease. But the question was one con- Noes lB9
fessedly of very great difficulty, and involved many Majority in favour of the bill --28
complications, and he thought that his honourable This announcement was greeted with loud cheering.
friend deserved much credit for grappling with that The bill was accerdingly read a second time.
difficulty. But he had been singularly unsuccessful, CARLISLE CANONRIES BILL.
and had not yet solved the question. On the contrary, Mr. FERGUSSON moved the second reading of this
he had rather increased the difficulty, and he (Mr. Cow- bill, and in doing so briefly explained the sources from
per) thought the measure proposed would have to be which the income of these canonries were derived. He
added to the number of those abortive measures which his stated that these were from incumbents who were enti-
hon. friend recapitulated with so much satisfaction in the tied to a due and fair share in this property, end con-
course of his speech. (Laughter.) If, on the other tended that the Dean and Chapter who were only
hand, the house was disposed to adopt the measure by stewards of that property, had no right to appropriate
which church rates would be abolished, and their payment that to themselves which was left for their advantage
left to voluntary contributions, some machinery ought to and the benefit of others. He proposed, therefore, to
be provided which would have enabled congregations to suspend one of the canonries, and divide the proceeds
possess some legal means of ascertaining how the money amongst the four incumbent..
they so contributed was disposed of. In this respect he Mr. R. PHILLIMORE considered it would be an act
thought the bill before the house entirely failed. His of rashness in the house to decide on this bill without
hon. friend had proposed that the churchwardens should hearing further evidence. An hon. member had stated
be the persons who should administer these funds—but he was opposed to all Canons. That was not his feeling.
he appeared to have forgotten that these officers were He was opposed to idlecanonries and pluralist canonries,
not elected by the congregations exclusively. To render but not to those who attended to the ministration of their
the measure successful the congregations ought to have office, and assisted in the education of the poor.
thepower of nominating and electingthose entrusted with Mr. T. CHAMBERS denied that this bill was an at-
the disposal of the contributions. Having said a few tack on cathedrals generally, and contended the mode of
words in opposition to the operation of pew rents as pro- dealing with Carlisle was a fair one.
posed in rural parishes, and the unjust burden it would Mr. MOWBRAY opposed the bill, and defended the
impose upon the poorer class of the co nmunity, the Dean and Chapter of Carlisle from the imputations that
right hon. gentleman went on to recommend that the had been cast on them of not attending to the spiritual.
people should wait until they saw their way clear for wants of the people.
legislation. A number of schemes had been proposed for Mr. FERGUSSON supported the bill, amidst cries
altering the present state of the law, and removing the of "Divide."
objections of Dissenters, as well as rendering it more The house then divided, when the numbers were—
conducive to the interests of the Church herself, but For the second reading lO2
(as the hon. member said) without effectively remedying Against it
the difficulty so strongly felt. He should not, Majority ---4
therefore, like to see a partial measure intro-
duced which should relieve the Dissenters and not The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.
the Church, as this would only serve to increase strife
and animosity. He thought before any measure was forced COUNTY AND CORPORATE ACCOUNTS,
upon the house that some understanding should be come IRELAND.
to mutually between both parties. He considered the On the motion of Sir R. FERGUSSON, the following re-
measure proposed by the hon. baronet would not attain turns were agreed to :—Return from the treasurer of
the objects he had in view, and be the means of settling each county, county of a city, and county of a town in
any future disputes, and therefore it was better for the Ireland, showing the receipts and payments on be-
' house not to adopt • it. He was not prepared to vote for half of each county in the year 1854 ; showing
the second reading of the bill, although he was prepared the receipts—lst. The balance, if any, on hand in
to agree to the principle, that of the necessity of abolish- county bank or exchequer bills on the let day of
ing the present mode oilevying church rates, and trust- January 1854 ; 2d. Amount received from county
ing more than they now did to the voluntary principle. Cess ; 3d. Amount received from all other sources ;
Mr. LUSHINGTON said he was glad to find some and, 4th, Balance, if any, due County Bank or Tree-
of the Government did not intend to admit the principle surer on the 31st day of December, 1854 ;—and Pay-
of the bill. The hon, member referred to the anti hit meats-Ist. Balance, if any, due County Bank or
of this rate in the course of which he said it was to bye Treasurer on the lit day of January, -1854 ; 2d.
regretted that, when the non-conforming community Amount of all sums paid ; and, 3d, Balance, if any, in
were first recognised, this question was not then settled, December,County Bank or Exchequer Bills on the 31st day of
of—
and adverted to the various measures introduced into Ist.
1854 ; together with a statement
h house of late years with a view to its final settlement. cuss
Tduhee assets above liabilities ; and, 2d. The County
1854. butod uncollected on the 31st day of December,
It was to be regretted, he said, Ministers had not brought
in a bill on this question, because it was not likely 'levied; at the Summer Assizes preceding, or the second
not including therein any sum ordered to be
half of th,eusutLordered to be levied off the county of
to be settled if left in the hands of private
Dublin
members. Having heard a bill had been introduced into
Corporation, TowsuperienuguepirlecTedeiwngn.
erßevvtuartnerfrcomememaci:
the other house, he (Mr. Lushingten) thought the house
sinners, or other public body', having a right to levy rates
might well pause before they came to a decision on the
off the inhabitants of towns in Ireland, being a statement
merits of this question, and see whether or not thereb
they might not have an opportunity during the present of the receipts and
He receipts :-Ist. Batsaner':
the
session of arriving at a conclusion on it. (Hear.)
the let day of January, laBnsy4
payments of each
treasurer'sinlBs4 ihotwanindga
on
:n2dAmount
admitted the question had been a most fruitful source of
received
from rents ; 3d. Amount received. from tolls, assess-
well to it, and come to some conclusion on it before long. ,
He thought the present measure objectionable, sth. Receipts from all other sources ; and 6th. Balance,
because not only bad the church a legal right if any, due to the treasurer on the 31st day of Dec., 1854;
to them, but the poor also, and in abolishing and payments ; Ist. Balance, if any, due to the treasurer
them they committed an injustice also on the poor, on the Ist day of January, 1854 ; 2d. Lighting, watch-
because they should recollect that by the law of the land ing, and cleansing expenses ; 3d. Repairs ; 4th. Im-
these churches were to be open free to the poor. (Hear.) prover:Lents ; sth. Salaries ; 6th. Law charges ; 7th.
In the meeting-houses of the Dissenters no accona Interest on debts ; Bth. Annuities ; 9th. Debts paid
modation was male for the poor—(hear)—they being on off ; 10th. Incidental expense and, 11th. Balance, if
the system of proprietary chapels, all who attended any, in TreaSurer's hands an the 31st day of Dec., 1854;
them had to pay for their sittings. (Rear.) And that also the amount of debt dee by each such body on
cwhasurteh )
the system
England.systemtly now proposed to carry into the the Ist day of January, 1854, and the 31st day of
December, 1854, in classes, distinguishing— Ist.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he was surprised to find I The bonded debt; 21. The amount due to contractors ;
the eon.
the beat
his member for Hertford state to the house it was 3J. To bank; 4th. To other parties ; sth. To treasurer;
be to
he sits
intentionof approve
to vote against the bill, because with the rate of interest on each class of debt, and
did et its o
be prepared° ^ h ort harbour or dock
approve of its machinery, whilst be - the increase or decrease of the debt during the year :
erneciple. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought I Awl similar return from enc p
go
inteourse the house could adopt would commissioners, or other similar body having .power to
, the house would seeenecessarY.
,coommittee on the bill, where they would , levy tonnage or goods rates in any port in Ireland.
listen
alterations as were to any objections, and make such I VICTORIA STREET SEWER.
(Hear, hear.) He hoped I On the motion of Sir J. SHELLEY, the following
interest of the
tors{ y.
peace amongst all the time was come, for the sake of return was affreed to : " Return of the total expendi-
I should be dealt weihtiseallsalltie°Bl
hoped they would declare:Er but more especially for the ' Victoria-street stating the
%at! edr !turn relating to thesewer,
England, that the subject , amount of the original contracts, the expense incurred
should not be trifled wilha
with in a practical manner, whienil (Liear hear.) He in repass, the expenseg of survey, and all extras in-
tionanaajority that this ques- I curred relat nto the said sewer, giving
, but be dealt , the names of the various _ surveyors employed,
be th'e means ' the items paid in compensation, with the names of the

Lord R. GROSVENOR presented a petition from
All Saints, Poplar, complaining of church rates, that if
the church rate is not sufficient to pay the ministers
stipend the church, however, is liable for it, and praying
that some clause might be inserted in the bill now before
the house on church rates, that may take away the lia-
bility of the churchwardens.
Sir J. SHELLEY presented several petitions from
Westminster for the abolition of church rates.
EDUCATION OF PAUPER CHILDREN.

On the motion of Mr. E. DENISON, this bill was
read a second time.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.

Sir W. CLAY rose to move the second reading of
the above bill. He was relieved from going fully into
details on this subject, partly from the frequent discus-
sions it had undergone, and partly from the universal
conviction now prevailing in the public mind that some
change was necessary in the present condition of church
rates. (Hear.) The bill he had now the honour to sub-
mit to the house for a second reading, provided, first,
for the entire abolition of church rates. Secondly, it
continued church rates for a time, inasmuch as it was
necessary for the liquidation of debt contracted on the
faith of church rates on the authority of existing acts of
Parliament. Thirdly, it provided that to the church-
wardens shall be confided, as heretofore, the entire
charge of providing for the repairs and mainteirince of
the fabric, and defraying the charges incident to the per-
formance of divine service. He felt it his duty to make
one incidental remark on the absence of any one member
of her Majesty's Government at the discussion of such
an important bill. (Hear, hear.) He had the impres-
sion that the assent of the Government, as a Govern-
ment, depended upon a satisfactory explanation of its
provisions, and it was not his fault if no member of the
Cabinet were present. (Hear, bear.) To revert to the
provisions of his bill. The second provision, as be had
stated, would retain the churchwardens, and he had a
twofold motive for retaining them. In the first place,
he thought it most important to make as little change
as possible in our existing laws and institutions, more
especially when those changes affected the pecuniary
interests or the habits and feelings of the people. Se-
condly, the proceedings of churchwardens were guided
by a long series of legal decisions, therefore there would
be nu new difficulty in the way of their administering
their functions. He had another motive for this.
Churchwardens were among our oldest parochial and
municipal officers; they were really the ecclesiastical re-
presentatives of the parishes ; and it was their duty to
look after any irregularity on the part of the incumbent,
and to see that divine service was duly performed, He
bad next to allude to the provisions. of the
bill which affected the appointment of auditors. He
would leave the appointment of auditors to the vestry
for two reasons—first, because there might not be a suf-
ficient number of subscribers resident in the parish, and,
in the next place, he wished to have the wholesome
control of popular feeling over the expenditure of large
sums of the people's money fur what might be p Jrhaps
fantastic purposes. He did not propose to take funds
from the capitular estates for the repairs of churches ;
he thought there was a growing disposit,on to
a better management of the church estates, and
be thought, therefore, that a portion of the surplus
funds might be safely applied to this purpose, on the
grounds that it would be prejudicial to the voluntary
principle, and also because it would require too compli-
cated a machinery for any private member to introduce.
(Hear.) The members of the Church were in the aggre-
gate the richest portion of the country : did they mean
to tell the world they would not pay for the support of
that Church except upon compulsion ? (Hear, hear.)
He would only refer to the returns of the Re-
gistrar-General, by which it appeared that. in the.
last half century more churches were built than
in the previous 500 years—namely, between 5..,000 and
3,000. In the first 30 years of the half century 500
churches were built, which cost 3,000,000/. ; of that sum
1,150,000/. were supplied from public funds, and
1,850,000/. from private sources, or in other words, 35
per cent. from the state, and G 5 per cent. from indivi-
duals. (Hear.) For the last 20 years there had been
more than 2,000 churches built, to the erection of which
public funds contributed 500,0001., and private finds
5,570,0001. (hear, hear) or, in other words,
public funds contributed SA per cent., and
private funds 013 per cent. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
baronet then referred to the cases of Liverpool and

other large towns where church rates were most re-
sisted, to show the great efforts made by the voluntaries
to build and endow churches, and he believed it was
undeniable that, just in proportion as church rates were
abolished in any particular parts of the country, there
the Church was best maintained. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. baronet concluded by moving the second reading
of the bill.

Mr. PACKE moved that the bill be read a second
time that day six months. In doing so, the hon. mem-
ber said, that, with all the respect he felt for those who
conscientiously differed from the Church of England, he
could not consider that body as a mere sect in compari-
son with the other religious denominations. (Hear.)
Before a bill was brought in to abolish church rates, a
bill ought to have been passed abolishing state religions
altogether. or to give the preference to some other reli-
gion than that of the Established Church. By this bill
they were taking away one of those props by which the
National Church was supported, and doing secretly what
they would not do openly, undermining and destroying
the Established Church of this country. (Hear.) It bad
been stated by the supporters of this measure that the
Church might be kept in repair by the voluntary contri-
butions of those who attend it ; and it was further urged
in proof of it the manner in which individuals came for-
ward and gave their money towards the erection of these
edifices, and it was no doubt a praiseworthy object
in such individuals thus doing so—(hear, hear)—
but he thought they would not find persons to
come forward so readily with their money to repair
these edifices as they did to build them, for the reason of
their having a feeling of pride in being connected with
the building of some great monument in the country,
whilst there was none in keeping it in repair afterwards.
(Hear.) Having made it necessary that the clergy of
the Established Church should be an educated body of
men it was also necessary the people should contribute
towards providing proper fabrics wherein their ministra-
tions might be heard. (Hear.) They had given their
sanction to one, but by the bill before the house would
refuse their sanction to the other, so that the temples in
wla'oh they performed those duties would go to ruin. An
objection had been raised to the continuance of church
rates, that it was not fair to call on persons who never
went inside a church to pay towards its support. If that
was to be a criterion for the nonpayment of money, he
should be glad to know why persons should be called
?T% Pay highway rates and county rates for the keeping
in repair of parish roads and county bridges who used
42ither the one nor the other. There had been lately
"1"11 agitation created out of doors on this subject, but
Petitions
nurnerous presented to the house had not been so
found thutat probably hon. members imagined, for he
been 1,12 a pePt.t7inthe 9th of this month there had only
was but a small containing 59238 signatures, which
tion of the county mber in comparison with the popula-
could not be takeny'awhich amounted to 18,000,000, and
and sbacrfiterion of the general feeling of
the country,
petitions pre,: one did not regard the
number of
with reference to the feelinnt7edfa,s, of very great weight
to the Beer
was very different withreterotinee'Lee Country. The ease
givumurnbter Sundaygrthtcres
Bill, for on that question
amounted to 225,000, the one
comparison strongly, g be f.el'ng of the
people inwhilst the other eak
A Royal Commi.sion had .sm on this question, absut7the-y.
recommended not the abolition of church rates; but their
being put on the same footing as the poor rate„ ;
1851 he found the house grail ted a commission Of
on the subject, which was presided over 1,3, mr.
Ire
lawney, and on which was the lino: member for Nlan.
ehester, and a member of the Society of_Friends (the
late member for Leicester), and who, after L,ar-
ing evidence from all pa: t 4 of the country,
did not -inmend a measure similar to

- reco
that of the hon. baronet's, but compromised the matter
by making no report at all. (Hear") The hon. gentle-
man Bald he had to make the same complaint at tbat
stage of his address the hon. baronet had made—that
there was not one Cabinet Minister in the house—(sitar)
—and he could not refrain from remarking, that on a
Question of that nature, upon which the maintenance
ciol
f Church and State wa.a based, the house ought to have
their opinion wh
e' they would say aye or no to the

THE SUN, LONDON, TILURSDAY EVENINGS MAY 17, 1855,

individus to whom compensation had been paid for
damage tone in the construction and repair of tit- said
sewer; tether with an account of all moneys, and how
raised, towards the expenditure of the said sewer ; to•
gaiter will the names of the members of the commis-
sion of severs under whose orders the Victoria•street
sewer was commenced.
CANDIA TRANSPORT.

Mr. 131NTINCK moved for a copy of the report of
the survei held at Woolwich on the Candia (iron)
transport, and that of the pilot who took her out.
Agreed to.
The home then adjourned shortly before 6 o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

HOUSE OF COM3IONS.-MAY 17.

CHURCH RATES ABOLITION (No. 2) BILL.
Order for second reading read. Motion made and question
proposed, " That the bill be now read a second time."
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now," and
at the eul of the question to add the words " upon this
day six months." Question put, "That the word ' now'
stand part of the question." The House divided—Ayes
217, Noes 189,

AYES.-217.
Acton, J. Fitzroy, Hon: H. North, F.
Adair, 1.1. Foley, J. O'Brien, P.
Adair, R. Forster, C. O'Flaherty, A.
Alcock. T. Forster, J. Oliveira, B.
Anderson, Sir J. Fortescue, C. 0-borne, R.
Atherton, W. Fox, W. Otway, A.
Ball, E. Gardner, R. Paget, Lord
Barnes, T Glyn, G . Palk, L.
Bass, T. Gc.derlch, Vis. Pecliell, Sir G.
Baxter, W. Ge0...t0/in, Sir G. Pellatt, A.
Beaumont, W. 'Gower, F. Perry, Sir T.
Bell, J. Grace, 0. Phillimore, J. G.
Iterkely, Adinhal Greene, John Phinn, 1.
Berkeley, lion. /I Gregson, S. Pigott, F.
Be..keley, C. Grenfell, Chas. Pilkington, J.
Berkeley, G. Greville, Col. F. PullarJ.Urquhart, W .
Bethell, Sir R. Grey, R. Portnian, W.
Bidduiph, R. M. Grosvenor, Ld. R. Power, N.
Biggs, W. Hadfield, G. P ice, Sir It.
Bonham-Carter,J. Hall, Sir B. Price, W.
Bowyer, G. Hankey, T. Reed, J.
Brady, J. Hanmer, Sir J. Ricardo, 0.
Bright, J. Harcourt, 0. Rice, E.
Brocklehurst. J. Hastie, Alex. Robartes, T.
Brockman, E. D. Hastie, Archd. Russell, F. C.
Brotherton, J. Henchy, D Sadleir, James
Bruce, H. A. Ileneage, Geo. F. Scholdield, W.
3ulkeley, Sir R. . Hervey, Lord A. Scobell, Capt. G.
Butler, C. Heywood, J. Scrope, G.
Byng, G. Heyworth, L. Scully, V.
Cardwell, E. Hof sman, E. Seymour, Lord
Caulfield, Col. J. Howard, C. Se:, mour, W. D.
Cavendish, C. Hudson, G. Shaft°, g.
Cavendish, G. ilutchins, E. Shelley, Sir J.
Challis, T. Hutt, W. Sheridan, R.
Chambers, M. Ingham, R. Smith, J. B.
Chaplin, W. Jackson, W. Smith, M.
Cheetham, J. Johnstone,7Sir J. Smith, R.
Clifford,Col.ll. M. Keating, H. S. Somerville, Sir W.
Cobbett. J. M. Kennedy, T. Stanley, Lord
Cobden, R. Keogh, W. Stanley, W.
Coffin, W. Kershaw, J. Steel, J.
Cogan, IV. H. F, King, P: Strickland, Sir G.
Jollier, R. P. Kinnaird. A. Strutt, E.
Craufurd, E. H. J. Lahouchere,Rt.Hon.ll Swilt, R.
Croak, J. , •, Laffan, C4t. R. Thompson, G.
Crossley, F. Laing, S. Thornely, T.
Currie, ltaikes Langston, J. H. Thornhill, W.
Dalrymple, Viscount Langton, W. Tomline, G.
Dashwool, SrG. H. Laslett, W. Townshend, Capt.J.
Davie, Sir 11. R. F. Layard, A. H. Tr till, G.
Deasy, R. Lee, W. Tynte, Col. C.
Denison, J. E. lemon, Sir C. Uxbridge, Earl
Dent, J Lindsay, W. Vane, Lord H.
De Vere, S. Little'on, E. Villiers, C.
Dlllwyn, L. Lowe, R. Vivian, LI. IL
Duff, G. Luce, T. Wahnsley, Sir J.
Duffy, C. G. Mackie, J. Walter, J.
Duke, Sir J. Macgregor, John Watkins, Col.
Duncan, G. Maguire, J. Watson, W.
Duncombe, T. ' Mangles, it. D. Wells, W.
Dundas, F. Marshall, W. Whatman, I.
Dungai van, Viscount Martin, J. Whitbread, 3.
Dunlop, A. Massey, W. Wilkinson, W.
Ellice, E. Milligan, R. Willcox, B.
Ellice, E., jun. Mills, T. Williams. W.
Elliot, J. Milner, W. Willoughby, Sir IL
Evans, Sir D. Lacy Mitchell, T. Winnington, Sir T.
En art, J. Molesworth, Sir W. Wyvill, M.
Feilden, M. Morris, D.
Fenwick, 11. Mowatt, F.
Fergus, J. Mulgrave. Earl of
Ferguson, J. Inurrou,gh, J.
Fitzgerald, W. Norreys, Sir D.

NOES-189.
Alexander, J. Forester, Cul.
Anne*ley, Earl of Forster, Sir G.
Bagge, W. Freshlleld, J.
Bailey, Sir J. Frcwen, C.
Baillie, 11. Galway, Viscount.
Baird, J. George, J.
Baring, Sir F. Gilpin, Col. IL
Baring, T. Gladstone, W.
Barrington, Viscount Goold, W.
Barrow, W. Gare, W.
Bateson, Capt T. ' Graham, Lord W.
Beckett, W. Greene, Thomas
Bentinck, G. Grogan, Edward
Beresford, Rt. He. W. Guinness, It.
Bignold, Sir S. Gurney, J.
Blackburn, P. Gwyn, H.
Blandfoni. Marquis o Halford, Sir IL
Booth, Sir Rt. Gore Harcourt, Col. F.
Bramley-Moore, J. Hawkins, W. ,
Bruce, C. L. C. Hayes, Sir E.
Buck, L. W. Hoy ter, W.
Buck, G. Ileathcote, Sir G.
Bunbury, Capt. W. Heatheote, G.
liurroughes, H. Heathcote, Sir W.
Butt, G. Henley, J.
Cairns, H. Herbert, Sir T.
Campbell, Sir A. Holterd, R.
Cay ley, Z. Hotham, Lord
Child, Smith Hughes, W.
Cholmondeley, Lord Hume, W.
Christopher, Robt. A. Irton, S.
Christie, Samuel Jertnyn, Earl
Cocks, T. S. Jolla°, Sir W.
Codrington, Sir C. W. Jones, D.
Coles. IL U. Kendall. N.
Colville, C. R. King, J.
Coote. Sir (I. H. Knliglitley,
Cowper, W. F. Knox, Col. Is. W.
Davies, D. A. S. Lana ton, 11. G.
Denison, E. U. Lacelles, E.
Dering, hr E. Lind li.
Disraeli, B. Liddell, H. G.
Dad, .1. W. Lliburne, Earl
Dri.mmond, 11. Lockhart, A. E.
Ducikwor li, sir J. T. Lockhart, W.
Buncombe, Hon. A. Long, W.
Duncoin be, 0. Lo value, Lord
Duncolubc, lIon.W. La-Inn:ton, C.
Dundas, t.. MacArtney, G.
Dmine, Cu!. Macgregor, Jas.
Du P,e,C. Maddock, Sir T. 11.
East, Sir J. N ilins, It.
Egerto3, E. C. Manners, Lord G.
Elniley, VB. Manners, Lord J.
E:rnly,,, Vis. March, Earl of
Euston, Earl Masterinan, J.
Evelyn, W. Miles, W.
Farnhatin, E. Michell, W.
Farrer, J. Montgomery, H.
Fellowes, E. Montgomery, Sir G.
Ferguson, Sir H. Morgan, 0.
Filmer, Sir E. Mowbray, J.
Floyer, J. Mullings, J.
Follett, B. Mundy, W.

TELLERS

Clay, Sir W., Bt.
Miall, E.

Naas, Lord
Napier, J.
Neck', John
Newark, Viscount
Noel, G.
North. Co!. J.
Noethcote, Sir S.
Oakes, J.
Ossuiston, Lord
Pakenham, Capt. E.
Paktngton, Sir J.
Palmer, Ito'rert
Palmerston, Visct.
Peacoelte, G.
Peel, Gen.
Peel, Sit R.
Pennant, Col. E.
Percy, 5.
Philipps, J.
Phillimore, R. J.
Pritchard, J.
Repton, G.
Robertson, P.
Rushout, Col. G.
Russell, Lard J.
Sawle, C.
Scott, F.
Seymer, IL
Shirley, E.
Smith, W.
Smollett, A.
Spooner, It.
Stafford, A.
Stanhope, J.
Startle, Le 11.
Stirling, W.
Stuart, W.
Taylor, Col.
Thesiger, Sir F.
Tollemache, J.
Trollope, Sir J.
Tud way, It.
Tyler, Sir G.
Vance, J.
Vansittart, O.
Verner, Sir W.
Verror, 0.
Vyse. Col.
Waddington, A.
Walcott, Admiral
Walpole, S.
Water park, Lord
Welby, Sir G.
West. F.
Whiteside, J.
Whitmore,
Wigram, Loftus T.
Woodd. R.
Wyndham, H.
Wyndham, W.
Wynne, W.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.

A man named Howard, ore of the navicm cmp:oyed to
construct the railway at Balaklava, applied to Mr. Ar-
nold for advice.

The applicant stated that he and others were hired in
December last to go to the'Crimea. They signed articles,
and left Blackwall on the sth of January. They remained
at Balaklava as long as their services were required, and
some of them were then sent home, but up to the present
moment they had been unable to obtain their wages. He
had been referred from the office of the contractors,
Peto, Brassey, and Betts, to Warwick-street, Pimlico,
where what was called the Crimean committe sat, but
the clerks informed him Ue committee did not consider
him entitled to more than the few small payments he
received, amounting to under 10s.

Applicant put in the agreement, which, after reciting
that Pete, Brassey, and Betts had engaged with the Go-
vernment to lay down a railway from the port of Baft.-
klava to the camp, and that Mr. Beattie was authorised
by that firm to engage navvies for the work, detailed the
nature of the contract, by which the men were bound to
labour for a period of six months at least, at the rate of
ss. per day, with rations, &c.
In reply to questions from Mr. Arnold,
The applicant said that they were discharged because
the railroad was so near completion that they were not
required. There was no complaint against them for
misconduct. They worked eight or ten weeks in the
Crimea, and bad 2s. 6d. given them at Gibraltar, and
at Malta. Applicant had also an allotment ticket
for 71., to he deducted from his wages, to pay sums that
he owed while he was away.
Mr. Arnold. having inspected the contract, said it was
a clear engagement for six months certain, and be was
willing to grant a summons against the contractors, who
had by their payment of a portion recognised the con-
tract ; but he thought the better course before he did so
would be to send to them, to ioquire whether they had
any desire to explain the matter, as it might save much
trouble.

Mr. Arnold accordingly despatched a messenger to
the office of Messrs. Peto and Co., and adjourned the
case until another day.

CLERKENWELL.—Mr. Henry TVebster, of 9,
Albert-terrace, Camden-town, and Mr. John Gray,
watch-toolmaker, of Clerkenwell-green, were brought up
for final examination betore Mr. Tyr whitt, shitrged with
having a large amount of stolen property, consisting of
watches, jewellery, &c., without being able to account for
its possession.

sergeant Jackson, 11 H, said—After the prisoner
Gray was admitted to bail on the first examinatio❑ he
proposed through his solicitor, Mr. Wakeling, to give
information as to whom he bought the watches of. He
took Sergeant Mason and myself down to Bethnal-
green, to a tavern there. He mentioned the name of
one person whom I well knew as suspected for some
time. We (the officers) waited outside, and we then saw
Mr. Gray and his bail, Mr. Symons, come out with a
third person. They stood talking together, and we pass-
ed very close to them. Just as we turned the corner of
the street the deaf man (Mr. Symons) rushed to us and
said, "That is one of them." However, before we could
get round the corner, Gray and the other man had
passed into another street, and then we met Gray return-
ing, and he said, "You should have stopped him at once;
that was the man." We remonstrated with him as to
his duplicity, and then he proposed to take us to the
man's house. He did so, and although we waited until
5 o'clock in the morning no one came.
Mr. Lawford, the original prosecutor, again gave evi-
dence of finding more of his watches sold by Webster to
customers in the country.
Mr. Wakeling at once admitted that his client, Gray,
had bought the watches legitimately in business ; he
gave as much information as to the parties he bought
them of as he could ; he admitted that the watches found
at Webster's had been sold to that man regularly.
Mr. Lewis elaborately and most clearly pointed out the
thorough business pactice of his client, who, from the
first, kept his books in a most straightforward way.
Mr. Tyrwhitt, in commenting on the case, remarked
that it was one that interested the general trading
community of the country, more especially the manufac-
turing watchmakers and jewellers, numbers of whom
crowded the court, and who, doubtless, felt an interest
in the investigation. As the matter stood the conduct of
Webster was without reproach, and he could not in any
way implicate him in the matter ; but he was glad that
the grand jury system existed, which would serve as a
check on the misdirection or inisthought of the magis-
trate ; theref re ha left the prosecutors to their remedy
in that way. As to the prisoner Gray, he should commit
him for trial without prejudice, requiring a bail in two
sureties of 2001. each.

The bails were tendered and accepted.
Mr- Lewis, on behalf of his client, agreed that all the
property seized at Mr. Webster's house should be held
by the police pending any inquiry.
As on the previous examinations, numbers of country
gentlemen were present from &dale, in Yorkshiro, where
Webster had for many years carried on a private and pros-
perous business, to testify to his honourable character.

THAMES.— Layton E. Hopper, 26, a shipwright, was
brought up on remand before Mr. Yardley, at the
Thames Police-court, charged with settin; fire to a float-
lag battery constructed for the Government.
The evidence taken before Mr. Ingham and Mr. Bo .vd-
ler, the second clerk, was read over by Mr. Pyer, the
chief clerk, and on the testimony of Mr. Campbell, the
prosecutor's cashier, that the fire spread rapidly along
the timbers under the vessel from the bow to the stern,
being read, Mr. I%rdley asked in which direction the
wind was blowing, and the witness replied from the
north-east, in a direction from the bow to the stern.

Mr. Ballantine asked the %%itritss whether a person
named Epworth, a blacksmith, was in Mr. Russel. .'s ern
ploy at the time the fire broke out, and employed on the
battery?

Mr.- Campbell—There was a Mr. Epworth in our
employ.
Mr. Ballantine.—l don't care whether he was Mr.
Epworth, or what his first, name was. _

PAIRS.

Mr. Campbell.—Mr. Epworth is our foreman iron
ship-builder.

Mr. Ballantine again subjected Coullie to a long and
searching cross-examination. -

TELLERS
Davies, J. L.
Packe, C.

FOR.
AGAINST.
Mr. Bagshaw Captiin L. ,Vernon
Mr. Rich Sir G. Berkeley
Sir J. M`Taggart Sir John Ty! ell
Mr. Roebuck - Mr. Deedes
General Buckley Captain Gladstone
Mr. Rolt General Wyndham
Mr. Tancred Sir T. Acland
Mr. W. Brown Mr. Arkwright
Mr. D. O'Connell Mr. Moody
Mr. Brand Mr. Cobbold
Mr, V. Scully Mr. Pugh
Mr. M. Gibson Mr. I. Butt
Colonel Freestuu Lord Claud Hamilton
Mr. Majoribanks Lord Newport
Mr. C. Bailey Mr. G. A. Hamilton
Mr. Divett Mr. T. Egerton
Mr. M. Dunne Mr. Burroughes
Mr. M. Williams Lord Bernard
Sir T. O'Brien Sir J. Carnac
Mr. Loftus Bland Mr. J. H. Hamilton
Sir J. Paxton Mr. Greaves
Lord Mouck Mr. Bramston
Mr. S. Ricardo Mr. Baldock
Mr. Richardson Colonel Maunsell
Mr. Wickham Mr. Knatchbull
Mr. Heathcote Sir E. Kerrison
Sir A. Cockburn Lord Dalkeith
Mr. J. Ball Mr. Corry
Mr. Moffatt Mr. Clive

Mr. Ifeadlam was accidentally shut out, having intended to
vote for Sir W. Clay's motion against church rates ; also Mr.
J. A. Smith and Sir John Ramsdell, both in• favour of Sir
W. Clay's motion.

Mr. C'arkson said, he would put Mr. Howie, the su-
perintendent of the K division, who bad charge of this
case, into the box, and he would swear tat he had every
expectation of bringing other evidence affecting the pri-
soner, and that the witnesses could not be called that
day without injury to the ends of justice.
Mr. Billantine - --I am instructed to call witnesses for
the prisoner, but it ought to be made known publicly,
fir the satisfaction of the prisoner's friends that I cannot
call them till the case for the prosecution is close;l.
Mr. Yardley—That is so ; and the prisoner's friends
ought to be satisfied.
Mr. Pelham, solicitor for the prisoner, said he had the
most complete alibi ever known.
The prisoner--I have witnesses to prove where I was
when the fire broke out, and up to 11 o'clock at night.
I can also prove the witness Coullie shook hands with
me and asked me to get him into a society about a month
ago.
Mr. Ballantine—l have so much reliance on my wit-
nesses that I will call them here, whether the magis-
trate determines on committing the prisoner or not.
Mr. Yardley—l shall come to no determination till
the whole case is before me. The prisoner is remanded
until Wednesday next.