The National Register.
London, England, 1823-03-09 00:00:00

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of the* House to enquire whether it was commensurate to such
permute. If it were tno little, they ought to add to it ;if too
vouch. it ought to be diminished.—(Hear, beer.)—About this
right be thought there could be no doubt. The House had
changed the established religion, and mild do so ageiu.—(A
langls.)—Such was the fact. If the legislature were to make
Quakerism the established religion, (uuell laughter,) the bi-
shops, clergy, 'and all the paraphernalia would be useless.
Supposing all were Quakers, what would become of the church
property? To show that it was public property, he had only
to refer to the Statute Book. There were, fur instance, 20
Acta to prevent the clergy from rob',ing the church. Having
thee established the rigid, he proceeded to advert to the over-
grown church eldahiiihments of Ireland.—The population was
6,800,000 ; or 490,000 souls, were Protestants ; there
vere about the same number of Disecntera ; all the rest were
Catholics. There were 22 bishops, 1/8 prebendaries, &c.—
in all 511 persons attending the chapters, &c.—Were su many
persons requinitt to manage and superintend 1,289 benefices?
They could nut.—V by were so many idle persons to be main-
tained ? Why bad the army been reduced ! Because there bud
been more than were wanted, and more than :bey could alford.
All the deans and chapters °debt to be reduced.—(llear, hear.)
—They were not wanted—there was middle,' for them to do.—
(Hear.—He concluded witlithoving for • commitee.
The resolution that a committee be appointed was preceded
by two resolutions, declaratory of farts that merited investi-
gation.
Mr. GOULBOURN replied at considerable length. Ile
'maintained that the principle of the bon. member's motion
called on the House to interfere with the church property of
Ireland ; that such property was granted for specific purposes,
and that so long as the church existed, so long as the Julie.
were performed, it would be unjost to Interfere with such pro-
perty. He trusted that his veneration for the church was not
a blind veneration ; lie hoped it was founded on retional
grounds; and he therefore viewed the proposition now sub-
mitted, in el.-.els ever why be contemplated them, as decidedly
unjust and uncalled for.
Mr. Peel and Mr. Plunkett opposed the motion—tie subject
was already under the consideration of the Irish Government.
Mr. DEN MAN supported the motion—he considered inquiry
as necessary.
Mr. Ill:ME replied, and
The House then divided—For the resolution 02—against It
167—autjority 105.
This division was on the second resolution. The other reso-
lutions were negatived without adivisioo.
Mr. MARRYATT thee rose to move for papers relative to
the situation mid manner in which his Majesty's ships the
Dotterel and Coma:ion were employed in August lase—Upon
this motion some conversation took plaue, and ultimately the
. motion was negatived.
'Time other orders were agreed to, and the House adjourned.
weDNESDAY. MARCH 5.
The Marriage Validity Bill eras read a thud tine sad
passed.
The second reading of the Marriage Act Revel Bill watt
postponed till Monday.
LONDON BRlDGE.—Aldenosn WOOD presented the report
of time committee on the petition, and afterwards obtained leave
to bring in a bill for the-rebuilding of London Bridge.
The committees of sopply and ways and means were post-
poned till Friday.
The Scottish Creditors' Bill was read it third time and
passed. '
The Assessed Taxes Repeal Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
Tire Jesuers.—Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a petition
from W. Parker of Coe k. It particularly complained of Lieut.
Bird, an officer at the Cape of Good Hope. The existence of
Jesuits im Ireland had been denied, and the proof had been
dared ; but still there was good proof that such learned reel
lied existence. At Stoneyhured, itiLancasffire, there was sorb
an establlehment ; as individetel of the name Bird, the brother
of the p6rson named by (lie petitioner, being at the head of it.
Its existence lied been recognised in the House of Lords, with
the statement that the serious aftentieu of Parliament must
wan be called to the subject. The Jesuits had large societiets
111, • „Meth, kingdom, and were largely on the increase; and an bed'.
learoset, a friend of his, bad stated, that 30,0001. were trans-
- *bitted to Ireland from Rome, fur the ertablishment of a Je-
eoilical or Catholic College. The sum of 16,006 i. bad been
lath out in pnrchusing Clongoine,s College—the proceedings of
such societies ought to be wate'aed.
Mr. C. U. HUTCHINSO,N admitted that be knew Mr.
Parker ; tirkt be was a good father, husband, and friend, arid
that he had claims on the g' pvernment for disappointments at
the Cape of Hope. Had ole lie' ..,111 been given to him, he
should have presented it. 'however he might diner from' its
object.
Mr. WILMOT said, 'he Colonial Department knew Mr.
Parker, het they could sot make oat a case for Wm.
Mr. BROUGHAM. a Averting to the petitiohs which ha had
preheated on a former t Jght agaient thes Jesuits, said, that Were
was a general imPrese; .on of the fact of their existence.
Mr. M. FITZGE otALD said; after Cardinal Gonsalvi's
letter to Ms Poynt4 if there was any society of Jesuits in
Ireland, they had kottlie sanction of the See of Rome, and
tharei ore might be 'epersed.—Petitiou ordered to he printed.
Mr. ABERCItt 1311.1 Y rose to bring forward bis motion re-
specting the Sec met (or Orange) Societies. If Orange So-
cieties were *lli fable end harmless, let truth prevail, and let
the Government defend them ; if, on the contrary they were
prejudicial and contrary to the laws, let truth prevail, and let
such sooieties be put down. Their suppression would be a
benefit to the / Oatholic, but a much greater to the Protestant.—
Thee were e •ntrary, in hie estimation, to the laws, and he
wished to se • the laws triumphant. Ile pointed out the mis-
chiefs and V. its proceeding from the secret societies called
Orange Sc' eieties, and ooncludiog with moving an address con
damning I Jrsnge Societies, and stating that the House was
willing le, co-operate with the government In the suppression of
the smut
Mr.. ';OII.ILBURN econenrred in the general sentiments ex-
presseer by the hon. mover, and admitted the rejudiciat ten.
dency of secret societies; but be expressed the hope that the
Seeci elks would not be Comm ?needed with other secret
sucirtiem, the • professed object of whittle was the separation
of the two go vernments. Whatever misoldevous resells might
ensue from • the Orange Sooieti es, and he admitted them, it
would be rev ellected they were formed to support thogovern
/tient. The! lied, h./Nee:vie so interwoven themselves with
'lug` "rticl's 01 l'aciety, that the suppression b. them would
be difficult, mic *.e' he impossible. Ile begged the recent
alfairs in Ire lae,er. Aud the conduct of goverument respecting
them, might $l,l the made Netter of discussion now, (Hear ! )
If. stated '.'.eat the Marquis Wellesley, in late despetuties,
itch rPnwnlP tended the government to bring forward a measure
to 44,11,4)'141{) the laws of Ireland regarding secret societies
with OM al' of England. —a recommendation which it was the
Islam& 41 of goverusiumi to submit to the House. (Hear! )

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-THE NAT/GNU, REGISTER

He wished that, previous to the present motion, he bad bad
the opportunity of making such proposition to the House.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought these societies, and all secret
societies, ought to be put down without delay.
Mr. DAWSON tlefewied the Orange associations, *bleb he
said bad always been found standing foremost in defenoe of
goo.l order, the laws, and the constitution.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD strongly reprobated the Orange So-
cieties as tending to promote factions and divisions amongst the
people. He strongly urged the present government to adopt
the same energetic course as was adopted by Lord Cornwallis
when he took on himself the government.
Mr. PEEL declared himself the decided enemy of secret
associations: he always had been so; he had so declared
himself when Secretary for Ireland, is 1814. At the same
time, lie was most ready to acknowledge the high merits end
great services which the Osangent.rOof Ireland had parfornied,
against both foreign and dont:Alio enemies. He believed their
principles at present to lid loyal and constitutional; hut these
principles might lierer;frtr degenesate; and filiatever their me-.
rim might he, he rest discountenance secret associations. As
the lesr now blt,d 111 England, it was an offence to below:, to a
society in which secret •ustlis were administered, but in Ire-
land it wit, necessary to prove the oath administered. He had
no ollie'Acia to make the law in Ireland the same as it is In
Engl,cd.
After a few words from Mr. Grattan and Mr. Canning,
Mr. Abererow.bie's motion was negatived.
The other orders were disposed of, and the Horse ad-
journed.

THURSDAY, MARCH 0.
INSOLVENT DEDVORS.—Mr. DENNISON presented a peti-
tion from :M. Mary's, Bermondsey, against the Insolvent
Debtors' Ad. One petitioner had 89 persons on his books
aim bad taken the benefit of such acts, and from whom he bad
never recovered one farthing. The hon. member thought it
was nut nectasary to state a stronger fact in it ustration of the
laws respec ling Insolvent Debtors.—Ordered to be printed.
The Horise went into a Committee on the Irish Assessed
Taxes Repeal Bill.—Report to-marrow.
The Liam Exemption from Toll Dill, being to explain the
General Turnpike Act, was read a second lime.—Ordered to
be coin Jilted to-morrofv.
MESSAGE FROM 111::. KING.--"Mr. PEEL presented it Mes-
sage from his Majesty, (see lords,) which stated that doubts
had arisen respecting the right 14, 'dispose of copyhold, lease-
hold, •:nd real estates, cot his Accession to the Crown, and that
the same doubts were likely to elf act his Majesty's successors ;
his Majesty therefore recommetaled the House to take the
subject into consiiLerstion, and No adopt such measures as
might be deemed roquisite.
Ordered to be Haim into consi,leration to-morrow in a Com-
mittee. '
POWER OF Tll7. CLtoWN.—Cisionel DAVIS presented a pe-
tition from Col. Allen, late of the 35th regiment, heretofore
stationed at Gturrnsey. It was another proof of the mon-
strous character that had been assumed by the Crown respect-
ing the distuissi on of officers. Cola Dailey bad accused him
of snaking faluei returns, &c. .A court-martial was called for
and granted ; and Col. Allen vtas tried on two charges for
making false returns, and Ror trying a man at the drum-head.
He was found gwillty of the flint charge, and he was ordered
to he reprimanded. The King 7 confirmed the sentence, and
added to it that Col. Allen was to retire to half par, or qait
the army altogether by sellio g hi, commissiod. He trusted
that the Otllff, would listen to this case.
_ .

Lord PALMERSTON said, the prerogative of the Crow•
to appoiut nr dismiss officers was lauquestioneble, and of long
usage ; and it wi lb essential that ii should be maintained. The
petitioner vir as found guilty of the' charges iirefervitl against
him : he Nether bad been nisglectfial of orders ; be had been
debited to abstain as much sill possible Irmo the infliction of
cor,orat punishment, hut in .14iite of this there were frequent
creirt:m artists. In a few ino attn. 79 individuals were tries', oo
whom :were inflicted 0,900 lashes. General Bailey bad ones,-
tsectel.ly went into the soldiers' quarters, and he found two
men 'in the sick ward labouring ooder the severe effects of
recent corporal punishment. No returns however had been
made on the subject. This led to ao inquiry, and it was found
that within a short period 15 men were tried and received
1,700 lashes. All these things were io spite of Gemmel Or.
dere, andlkere was no ground of the emergency or the mug
to justify the dram-head wrests-martial, the dogging,
His Lordship then read 'omit of the records of those courts-
martial. One man for having two bl',nk cartridges in the
breast of his jacket instead of being in his eavtridge-hos, was
sentenced to 25 lashes—another 2.1 lashes for supporting his
musket, instead of shouldering it—snd 'nearer 100 lashes for
drunkenness. Another man (all of them tried by dram-head
courts-martial)oas sentenced tor having hulled his musket in
the air, in an ansoldier like way, had IL lashes. And this was
the individual who was to be held op air haling been the victim
of military tyranny. More might balm been °barged against
Colonel Allen ; be was equally unmindful of his superiors and
his inferiors ; and it was not found'thst he ought to be continued
in the command of a regiment. 'He was permitted to sell his
commissions, all of which he had received by the pure grace
and favour of the Crown.

Mr. G. BENNET was glgd to hear what had fallen from the
noble lord—he was glad to find that the system of lugging
was so distinctly disavowed.
Col. DAVIS said be only contended that Colonel Allen had
been proceeded against in an manner. Ile was the ad-
vocate of principle, and not of the man ; and when the Mutiny
Bill was brought forward, he should propose a chose to pro-
tect olli..ers against the exercise of such pewer on the part of
the Crown. Petition ordered to be printed.
Mr. (OULBURN rose, in pursuance of his promise' last
Session, to bring forward the propositions of Government on
the anbjeet of tithes in Ireland. He should ask for leave to
bring in two separate measures. The brit would be for the
commutation of tythes for a time to he limited. It would be
proposed that the Lord Lieutenant should have the power, on
representation from a eertain number of tithe payers, to as-
semble whet he would call Special Vestry for the Diat►iet.—
Such Vestry should have the power of limning persons to ise-
Kociale with the incumbent of the parish. or rather witla••
person ell behalf of sush.inonmbent, to adjust what ►hould be
the tithes for a time to be li Ailed. If the Commissioners
should fail in settling the amount of the composition, it would
be noropeteot fur them to appoint an umpire ; and shoo d these
parties tail, the Lord Lieutenant might ■ppoiot a commissioner
to settle the case. After various details of the measures, ho
concluded by mowing for leavo to bring in two bills to regulate
the commutation of tithes, &c. in Ireland.
On bringing up the report of the Nobuaki Debt Reduction
Bill,
Mr. CALCRAFT sttongly opposed the measure, as Wets-
laded to put an end to any further reduction of taxation. He
would propose that a further consideration of this report be
postponed to the 20th of April.
On tba motion the House divided

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