The Sun.
London, England, 1855-02-21 00:00:00

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that he had not
spoken of withdrawing a single European regiment from
India, or of employing native troops in the Crimea.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said the tone adopted by the
noble lord in speaking of the militia had alarmed him in a
certain degree, and he believed a strong feeling of jealousy
existed with respect to the course taken by Government as
to some arrangements for that service. Not very long ago,
as was done in the last war, recruiting regiments were sent
down to raise men from the militia regiments for the line, and
the consequence was that those regiments were thrown for a
week or ten days into a state of complete disorganisation. It
was no light matter that such a garrison as that of Ports-
mouth, for instance, with four or five regiments of militia,
should be in this state. A strong impression had gone
abroad that the militia had not been, in all respects, treated
fairly by Government and Parliament dnring the last
three I years. When his noble friend behind him
introduced his bill establishing the militia force, the universal
understanding was that the militia should only be embodied
in case of invasion. That bill remained in force for a year,
and then events arose which drove the Government into war
in a direction entirely different from that contemplated by his
noble friend, and their lordships were obliged to pass a second
bill to enable the militia to be embodied in case of war. That
was never fairly understood, and he had known several in-
stances in his own county in which poor 'men had entered the
militia, with no intention of joining a force that was to be
permanently embodied. These men, if they were to serve in
a permanently embodied force, would much prefer the line,
because there they would have the privileges of the regular
service. This had caused a feeling in the south of England
that had to a great degree prevented recruiting for the militia
being carried on successfully, and he observed that even a
purely agricultural county like Hampshire had fallen very far
short of its quota. He entreated the noble lord to deal in
the most open, frank, and easy intelligible waylwith those
men, who did not like to find themselves tempted on step by
step, first entering a force under one set of conditions, then
having their servitude prolonged by another bill, until they
were at length enrolled in the ranks of the line, where they
had had no intention of going.
Earl GREY could entirely confirm what had just been
stated by his noble friend. He knew that the departure from
the original understanding on which the militia was raised
had had a most prejudicial effect. At the time of the bill
being passed last year, he for one had expressed his dislike of
it, and his apprehension of the consequences. He knew from
long experience that the class of men from whom they raised
their soldiers required to be dealt with not only with good
faith, but with such scrupulous attention to appearances that
there might not be a shadow of suspicion of any departure
from it. When the militia was formed, the greatest pains
wore taken to inculcate on the people of this country the per-
suasion that in going into the militia they incurred no hazard of
being permanently embodied in war, unless in the apprehension
of invasion ; and now that a different bill had been passed, he
could assure his lordships that he had observed in his own
county a very marked difference in the feelings of persons as
regarded readiness to enlist. He knew of ono case in which a
man who had enlisted in the militia under the original bill
msauidstthematigiraf tthhetoreAgimmeernict
existence of such feelings, he had written to the noble viscount
awbasefotebiet wp
then Secretary for the Home Department, asking if the men
earsmdaonneen. tlyK.
ne mot dnige dtlhi
eo
might have their leave of absence extended beyond a period
of 28 days. The answer was that such an assurance might bo
given, but whether this had the effect of satisfying the parties
to whom be referred ho could not say. He entirely differed
from the noble earl-opposite in regarding the militia as the
best nursery of the army ; his view was, not that it should
be used as a nursery for the army, but that it should be a to-
tally distinct force for national defence. If it were to be used
as a mere nursery for the regular army, for drilling and train-
ing soldiers for the line, how could you expect that colonels
and officers would take such pains in disciplining and training
the force, if the moment the men were ready, they were to
be draughted into the regular army. Or why should an ex-
pensive establishment of officers be kept up to do what could
be done by a captain and a few drill sergeants ? He main-
tained that they had thwarted instead of promoted the great
object of keeping the regular army strong. The policy he
would recommend was, that of increasing the regular army by
holding out inducements to men to enter it, and by ameliorat-
ing the system that had hitherto existed. He entirely approved
of the measure now laid on the table, and in connection with
its object he hoped that Government would take steps for
bringing back into the army a class of men whose services
would be of the greatest value. Large numbers had been dis-
halel
obweleide vteodr me
caknoyn mthiegihrtybera.seenoftiseeervid beaecalkraegaadiyn
charged from the ranks during the last few years, of whom
iafst tahse yp
awr te reef
their time towards a pension. At this moment when trained sol-
diekswere of such inestimable value, it would be well worth the
while of Government to hold out this inducement, and to
accompany it by the repayment of the money given by tho
men for their discharge, as well as by other fit and reasonable
terms. He entirely concurred with his noble friend the Secre-
tary of State for War that this was not a proper opportunity
for entering on the high and important questions relating to
the conduct of the war, but as the subject had been intro-
duced, he could not help saying that ho had heard with great
satisfaction that his noble friend did not yield to what ap-
peared to him the extravagant and wild suggestions of the
noble earl opposite. He had listened to them with no little
dismay, and he believed that if they were to act on the views
stated by the noble earl they migat bo prepared for a flame of
war extending, perhaps, over the whole civilised world, and
burning during the term of their natural lives. He particu-
larly regretted to hear the noble earl say he considered that
India had a deep interest in the present war. He belie red
that it was utterly impossible to have made a statement less
founded on the accurate views of the real interests of India,
or at the same time more calculated to be injurious to this
country. (Hear.) The noble earl talked of the interests of
India and this war, as if India were exposed to the smallest
danger from the attacks of Russia. From a person of the
noble earl's experience, he had not expected to hear any such
statement as to a danger which he must regard as utterly
monstrous and chimerical. Was Russia to:advance across those
hundreds of miles, in a great part trackless wastes, that
separated her frontier from India, and carry an army over the
great mountains that divided the peninsula from Central Asia?
We knew how formidable Russia was for defence when attacked

at home, as she was now at Sebastopol ; but, judging from
what she had accomplished on the Danube, she could not be
regarded as very formidable for attack, nor did she.'possess
means for moving large masses of men and parks of artillery
over great distances. (Hear, hear.) Whilst we possessed
the affections of the people of India we might set at de-
fiance the hostility of Russia, but when we lost their respect
and confidence, let our armies be what they might, then
our power in India would certainly crumble. To
involve our Indian empire in embarrassment and im-
po!e great fina:le;al burdAn: for the sa.k-e or carry n;; out a

~ei,onao of mint' I ry (,rgo,uirition 111 l'iratoal :odpi-,:tr it tc)
him as wild a notion as could be imagined. With regard to
the conditin mud prospects of rolaAd, adverted to py his

(the Earl of Ellenborough) recommended was, that native
Indian troops should be sent, not to the Crimea, but into
Asiatic Turkey, where, from similarity of religion, they might
more easily act in unison with the inhabitants. His noble
friend further suggested that they might be paid in part at
least by the East India Comp iny, which had a great interest
in preventing the countries of Central Asia from falling under
the domination of Russia. He must remind the noble earl
opposite that great authorities had held very different views
on the question of a Russian inva ion of India. What else
had induced British statesmen for the last half century to
support so strenuously the independence of Persia? And
what had Lord Melbourne's Government done in 1838 ? On
' the mere rumours or notion that the Ameer of Cabul had en-
gaged in an alliance with Russia they thought fit to send au
army and upset his sovereignty.
Earl FITZWILLIAM entirely approved of the mea-
sure, which he believed would produce the most
beneficial effects in improving the composition of
our army. He disapproved of seeing the militia con-
verted into a mere nursery for the regular army. It was a
great mistake for Government to enforce volunteering, be-
eause if the system of volunteering was to be pushed to the
fullest extent, ho did not understand hove the militia could
be properly officered. It was desirable that the militia should
be officered by the gentry of the country ; but ho did not see
how they could expect that to be the case if regiments were
to be required to volunteer in their corporate capacity.
Gentlemen who had duties to perform in this country could
not bo expected to volunteer their services for the colonies,
and therefore he trusted his noble friend would consider well
before he called upon officers to enforce volunteering amongst
the men. He said enforced volunteering, because what was
called volunteering might be put in such a manner as to take
the shape and tone of force ; and as he, for one, disapproved
of the idea of making the militia a mere nursery for the regu-
lar army, ho hoped nothing but legitimate volunteering would
be expected, to which, of course, he entertained no objection
whatever. (Hear.) He was not going into the other topics
touched upon in the course of this debate, but at the same
time he could not sit down without expressing his entire con-
currence with what had fallen from the noble earl who had
meetly addressed them, relative to the fear that Russia
would attack India. That was a fear which he did not enter-
tain ; he did not believe that Russia could march an army
over the deserts and scale the mountains which intercept
Russia and the Indian peninsula; those natural defenders
were sufficient to protect India not only against the physical
sehdowiuldthavtahiel
attack of frost and snow, but also to protect her against the
ambition of the northern Autocrat. He did not believe there
dirmecotsird,esbiurat
bsiteillthhaetawgree
ourselves of the high split and peculiar position of those
tribes which lie bet een the Black Sea and the Caspian, bo-
nwoabsleanmya dangerrquis thinattihta wast
be-
cause he considered it most essential that there should be a
barrier placed between Russia and Persia. Whatever fear he
think they could be directed to the north of the Sea off
might entertain of Russian desigrs upon India, he did not
Azoff, so much as to influence the movements of the tribes
which lie between the Black Sea and the Caspian.
Lord PANMURE said an expression had fallen from him
which seemed to have given rise to some misapprehension.
When he used the expression " quota" he did not mean that
each militia regiment would be compelled to send up a portion
of its men for foreign service ; all that he meant was that
there should be no time lost in volunteering, so that the
quota of each might be ascertained. The volunteering would
not be compulsory, bat entirely at the free will of the men;
but it was not for the credit of the service that militia regi-
ments should be kept as it were in a state of insubordination,
for a week or ten days, by the uncertainty that surrounded
the matter, and therefore a communication would be made to
the commanding officers of those regiments which had sup-
plied no volunteers, with the view of ascertaining whether or
no the men had been afforded a fair opportunity for volun-
teering, (Hear.) With reference to the suggestion of the
noble earl (Earl Grey), that men who had purchased their
discharge should bo allowed to re-enter the service upon cer-
tain terms, perhaps the noble earl win not aware of the exist-
ing regulation upon that point. When he first entered the
War-office he found that the men who purchased their dis-
charge were allowed six months, within which time they could
re-enter if they repented of their retirement. If they returned
to the army within those six months they were allowed to
count their former service, while a portion of the purchase
money was returned. to them. That was how the matter
stood when he first went to the War-office ; but whilst he was
Secretary-at-War the period was enlarged to a year ; and now
he understood from the Commander-in-Chief that it had been
further extended to two years. But supposing they were to
invite all the men who had purchased their discharge within
the last few years, and who were below 37 years of age, he
did not think it would very materially augment the army,
because, while he was Secretary-at_war, he did not think
more than 60 or 70 men purchased their discharge in a year.
Under these circumstances he did not feel disposed to adopt
the suggestion of the noble earl, at all events until all other
yi,AtNhat if the wh le of the purchase money were
sources had failed.
gave it as his opinion, which was founded
ureptLoui rnienidgli,uimiVrany men would be induced to return, and it should
not be forgotten that we had arrived at a crisis when our ob-
ject should be to get the ablest soldiers, (Hear, hear.)
The bill was then read a second time, and the standing or-
ders having been suspended, it was committed, reported, and
finally read a third time and passed.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the following resolu-
tions were agreed to, viz.:—" That no private bill shall be
read a second time after Tuesday, the 10th day of July next.
That no bill confirming any provisional order of the Board of
Health, or authorising any enclosure of lands under special
report of the Enclosure Commissioners for England and
Wales, shall be read a second time after Tuesday, the 17th
day of July next. That when a bill shall have passed this
house with amendments these orders shall not apply to any
new bill sent up from the House of Commons which the chair-
man of committees shall report to the house is substantially
the same as the bill so amended."
Their lordships then adjourned at half-past seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-YESTERDAY.

The SrEAKEs took the chair shortly before 4 o'clock.
NEW W [UT.

PRIVATE BILLS.
Improvement Bill,
On the motion of Mr. C. BRUCE
aßilill,Ltivr erpool Corporation
a new writ was or-
dFeorrebdesf,ordetcheeasceodu.n ty of Stirling, in the room of Mr.
The following bills were read a second time and or-
cDomocinkiTtterudt;
On the motion for the second reading of the Liverpool
Birkenhead
e ntho
e be
ad
Improvement Bill, t7eiSsi'
nc"
Water Bill.
Mr. M. GIBSON expressed a hope that a clause would
be introduced into this bill, the object of which was to
mortgage the town dues of Liverpool, with the view of
providing that it should not interfere with any future
general legislation on the subject of the local charges on
shipping.
Mr. HADFIELD also urged the Board of Trade to
keep their eyes upon this bill. The town dues of Liver-
pool were principally paid by the manufacturers of Lan-
cashire and Yorkshire, without their receiving any bene-
fit in return. He should therefore move that the bill
be read a second time that day six months, unless he had
some assurance that it would not prejudice future legis-
lation.
Mr. CARDWELL said the bill would contain such a
claiuse ; and if it received the Royal assent, the commis-
sioners acting under the bill would not be allowed to
pledge the dues charged on shipping without the con-
sent of the Board of Trade. That consent certainly
would not be given until the opinion of Parliament bad
been taken upon the general question of whether the
local charge on shipping should be continued or not.
Mr. LIDDELL supported the bill, and insisted that
the corporation of Liverpool were entitled to the dues as
an immemorial right.
Mr. BRIGHT said there was no desire to oepose
the second reading of the bill ; all that was wanted was
a pledge that it should not interfere with any future
legislation on the general subject of local charges on
shipping.
Mr. HADFIELD said after the intimation of the
right hon. the President of the Board of Trade he would
not press his amendment.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed.
PETITIONS.
Sir J. WALMSLEY presented a petition from
Paisley in favour of the vigorous prosecution of the war,
and praying that efforts might be made to re-establish
the oppressed nationalities of Poland and Hungary,
Mr. Alderman CHALLIS presented a petition
from Finsbuiy, praying for the repeal of the newspaper
stamp.
Sir J. DUKE presented a petition from various
City boards, in favour of Lord Brougham's Registration
of Bills of Exchange Bill, and against Mr. Keating's bill
on the same subject.
Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Wolver-
hampton praying that the sale of spiritous liquors may
be totally prohibited.
Lord GODERICH presented a petition from Notting-
hill, praying for an inquiry into the state of the army in
the Crimea.

Mr. C. BERKLEY presented a similar petition from
Cheltenham, and also praying*that the bouAe Nvonl4 in-
terfere to re-establish tho nationality of Poland.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Pa poor Wo%