The National Register.
London, England, 1820-10-22 00:00:00

VIE NATIONAL REGISTER

do any thing with the papers of her Rog* Highness ?-4fet, en
she follOwmg day 1 brought him some.
•Did Yilmielni say any thing *bait the time you should go to
his office ?...He told me to call in the evening.
Did he mention any particular time in the evening ?...Yes,
after sun set.
Did you, upon any other occasion. take any papers to Vilma-
anti relating to the Princess 9...1 did.
Fur how long a period were you in the habit of taking bee Royal
Highness papers to Vilmacarti ?
The SOLICITOR GDNERLL objected to the question.
On hew many occasions did, you take papers from Codaxsi to
Yilmacarti ?...I do not know bow minty times.
Did you do it frequently ?...No.
How often do you believe ?...Seven or eight times at the
utmost.
Did Vilmiearti know you were Clerk to Codazsi when you
took the papers ...He knew it, certainly.
By whose dodge did you take them P—l don't know the name.
Had you may awavallaties with Vilmicarti about taking them 9
—He told me to being is Mtn all the papers I could get.
Did yaw issidas way *Ng for taking these papers 9—Money.
How dna Al yew Nome money from Yilniaairti for taking
hint the PPM. other Royal Highness —Six times.
Wets yes awiellail with the money you got from Vilawearti
I was not.

- Did you ever comploin to Col. Brown. that you did not get
money enough from Ifihoaearti for taking papers to him from
your master r... 1 soomploinod once.
What did Coked Brown say to you on making this com-
plaint f...lie SUM me that he was a friend to Vilmicarti. and
that I ought not to doubt but that he would pay me what he
promised.
Did you. in consequence of this conversation with Col. Brown,
make a fresh application to Vilnuicarti ?...Col. Brown told me to
canon Vilmacarti on the following day, and be would give me
something.
Did you all on Vilmacarti ?...I did.
Did you receive any money from him ?...I did.
Where does Vihnacarti live in Milan 9...Rne Gabello.
Did he live there when you took papyri to him ?...He did.
Did he always live there ?...No, when I first took papers to
him lie lived in the lane of the Rue Gitbello.

Where atdeni:Bro;rtiiiie?::.litiond the bridge at the eastern
ste.
Do you know the number of the house !...1 do not.
To what subject did the papers relate which you took to
ilmacarti ?

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected to the question.
Do you know what the papers relate w ?...Some of them.
Can you state whit subject they related to ?...One was the de-
position of foresee de chowsbre who had been sent to Vienna with
Baochi. As they went aloe% the lOW Sacchi said—
Here the witness was interrupted.
I. want to know what the papers related to P.—They were
*tan.
Any depositions of witnesses P... Not among the letters. They
were letters of the Princess, !Sagami, and others.
Besides the letters, were there any depositions or statements of
witnesses ?...There was not.
What other papers were there besides the letters ?...Copies of
the answers of the advocate Codusi.
Answers to what ?...Answers of Codazzi to Bergami.
Any other papers ?...No.
Do you know what subject the letters related to?...Sorne of

State them ?...One was a letter of Bergaral, who said he would
not return to Milan before he saw those persons who were without
shoes before, go without shoes again.
The Earl of I.IVIERPOOL suggested) that the last answer
should be struck out. _ _ .

The LORD CHANCELLOR was of the same opinion ; and
the whole of the answer was struck out, except " One woes let-
ter of Bergaini"
State what the letters related to generally ?...Tbe Adteane
Vihuacarti told me to bring those letters, particularly the depo-
sitions of the witnesses.

Did ;isacarry— any papers relating to the subject to Vfinineartit
Letters, Dot paper.
Do you know a person of the name of lieganti /...11 do.
Did [legend maize application to you respecting the papers ?...
He was at my house. and did apply to me
Did you tell Vilmacarti of W's application P... 1 did. I
meal Vilmacarti what sort of a man Rqmsti was P—Retold me
that be was a person of condition, and that I should gin any
Pliglintpeposs did yateeis.Repad rearedne the
Alin sneer
Whet oak erlisr lle”I Higbee. Nabs Able new
Did Bowl bow in whose employment you Ij=
knew it, kr he had come m my house =Later the ilenclm7
of Godadti. and I was the limitary of
Did Vilmacarti say any thing more about Itegantre employ.
mein ?...He told me that he was a person of character; be gold
nothing else.
When did you first disclose to Godachi that yen had taken
these paps/1?-0n the tyth July.
What year ...This year.
Do you mean 1820 ?...Yea
Was that the first time you interned Godachi?...lt was.
Describe Col. Brown's houses are there any goods sold there ?
...There is a shop on both sides of the door.
What goods are sold in the shops ?...On the left there is •
tailor, on the right a dealer in alabaster.
What does Regand sell ?...Tobacco and salt.
Mr. %Yvan said he had no further questions to ask.
Cross-examined by the Solicitor General.
How long were you in the service of Codaaai?...A year and a
WE

Were you his Clerk all that time ?...Always.
Down to the present tiine?...No, to the nth of July.
Well, did he turn you out of hii service ?...Yes.
Have you ever been in his employment since ?...No.
Do you mean to swear than from the 27th of July down to
the present time you never have been in the employ of Codassi ?
...kean swear it a thousand times.

-------
When was it that you first watt to the Advocate Vilmaearti ?
...September of last year.
Can you tell us the day olthe math, —I don't know the day.
Tell us about the time ?...I t was towards die end of the month.

Lid yat ksow at that Uwe that Vilmsaarti con employed is
the prams against her Majnity ?...When I went I knew it.
Did yeekbarsw Codasat was in poasession of papers of her
Royal Welmesslo...l had them in my own dealt.
Did Jed otri, as an honed man. communicate this request to
go to VilmeesetVa. to your muter P...N0.
Did you net conceive it your duty to do so ?...I thought at the
time 1 could du no harm.

Did Vilmacaiti pay you anything for the papers you delivered
the first dine?...He gave me three double golden Napoleons.
and told me they were for sue to take a chop with.
What did he pay you fur the second parcel you gave him ?...
Pout single Napoleons.
When you wok the third parcel what did he pay you ?...He
paid me for them at *mike rime.
Having carried papers tor so long a period. and having been
paid by Vildiacarti. did you ever conniunicate the circumstaace
to Coitazzi ?...I never said anything to Cothazi.
Did you not think that you were acting a woo infamous part
in selling those papers to Viltnacarti ?...l did not the begin-
ning.-I.t laugh.)
When did you discover that this conduct was base and infa-
mous ?...About the beginning of this year--(A laNgh-)
Was it a discovery of your own that this conduct was bass

.._ ,

•

. • •

lerhat he earns down be had a Minitel et melts If tysloso—
doubb Napoleons. There were. ha said. So i and they up-se
as many. I man no double Napoleons. Zangla told sue-•••••
The ATTORSLIC Geo ZRAL said. the Ileum meld os=
the conversation between Jangle and the whims as
gra& not having been proved to be an agent.
Mr. WILLIAM() contended in favour of the =tits. sod
etated that he could prove that the witness bad teld by
Zangla, that he should receive as much if he would make a
deposidon against the Queen. It was necessary to proceed step
by step, as it would be impossible to prove conspind by any
other means.
Mr. TYNDALE followed on the same side.
After sane observations by thelaordChancellor,Lools Erskine.
nedealale. and Grey. Mr. Bmugliam rose to speak, but it
being four o'clock, the House adjourned.
FIFTEENTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE.
• THURSDAY. OCT. 19.
The House resumed proceedings at ten o'clock this morning.
Counsel being called in.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he had it in com-
mand from the !louse to Inform them, that the question on which
the debate arose yesterday could no: be put in the present Maggot
the proceedings.
Mr. Bactuourio said. that there was another question. on
which he wished to have their Lordships. opinion, whether it
should be put or not. He understood their Lordships to have
decided that he could not ask the witness Meoni to tell what
Zang!' told 31coni had been said to him (Zangla) by Col. Brown
-..in short. that Zangla himself must be called to prove the decla-
red= of Brown to hum.
Earl GREY was of opinion that her Majesty's Counsel had
a right to pursue the course in which they had just been inter-
rupted ; it was perfectly consonant with the opinion given by
the Judges.
Lord F.RSKINE said, that the Judges in stating that there
must be some introduction of the defence of conspiracy. did not
certainly allude to the original opening. Such a defence might
not be known at first; it might arise out of the proceedings. or
out of any circumstances coming newly to the knowledge of the
party. find he would appeal to the oandour of the Noble Earl
opposite, whether upon such a case newly arising, it would
be eight or fair to oppose Counsel in opening what this new case
was?
Lord DARNLEY said, the difficulties thrown in the way of
her Majesty, must have rendered it impossible for her Counsel to
ascertain, at the period of opening the case, circumstances which
might arise in the course of the investigation, and that might be
calculated to establish the crimes that had never been in the con-
templation of those employed in the defence. He hoped that
seeing the insufficiency of the evidence in proof of the ease,
and that to many extraordinary things had arisen to throw
discredit upon the charges, their Lordships would. at no very
distant day, give up the ease altogeth as the only expedient
by which substantial justice could he er
doss.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he bed yesterday expres-
sed his reasons for diffieing from their Lordships upon_ the sub-
jeet areceiving evidence. which their Lordship had thought
to hear. •It was a painful thing for him to be placed m
=ft a situation; but he should never cease to declare. that no
slander, no calumny, should prevent him from conscientiously
performing what he considered to be his duty.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. Wail/ass said it had never been intended to prole the
crime of conspiracy by this witness's evidence. against those who
were concerned in the Milan Commission. The evidence he had
called was to effect Zangla, and not Cob Brown, and he was glad
that their Lordships now understood the question, and that no
reply would be made to what had been stated. A conspiracy
imght bare existed without the knowledge of the Mika COOl.
massioners. The eiretuadessoss of their ming over toads* rd.
den, might have excited assoks Ear Ipso* iet army persons,
and without their knowledge lii earyieney might have arisen
upon that hoodation. It had hen ieekanMsd. &new ought
to be called by shoes who whited to diary the conspiracy ; but
they already charged him with being a culprit, and who would
tali upon him tooriminme himself? As the case was now un-
derstood by their Lemke*, be Me Lamed Counsel) submitted.
on every ground. that dee lased= ought
to be admitted as
evidence.
Mr. Bat:tattoos( (chewed on the ammo lie. The Conned
for the defence did not seek toxin seldom of thededaratisosof
Col. Brown, or the Milan Coomasiem That was set the plum
Object. He had already hod sseembing to tie wish the Miles
Commissioners. and he. perhaps, 'might hove to do with ikein
again, but not at present. But bums they did wit mew with
to iillbecenspiracy on Col. Brows end ids ese4iMew. was be
Majesty's Counsel to be prevented Ma provigthe eneephogy ea
the part of other individuals to isupede lost Maw kr lie de-
fence. and to increase the widow ter the JIB N.Wheever he
rciwltt be, whether Brows es Tombs, or any akar peen who
had done this. and be odd pew that it bed boo due, the
fact ought to be brought hems to Mtn. I am pawing that
Zangla made bimeeir on sedge agent wane; the Qom. by what
be had dean He says te a prase he wished to lama, become
a witness for the mo . isesodso. Swear mplost the halms of
Wales, and yoositall have a reward." The sun says. II I can.
not. I know nothing about her." u Oh." Grim tie what
girdles that, I will take you to the gardens whim the walked
with Bergaini, to the moms where she sat with him, and I'll tell
the day and the hour when they were really there t so that you
have nothing to tear from avatars. So here. come along with
me—take these Napoleons. choose your spot. I will prove the
Princess and Betgamt to hare been there. and you have only to
forcer that you law it that's continued the Learned
Counsel. lam prepared to prove; and it would be monstrous to
suppose for a moment that, hearing this. any one of your Lord-
ships could lay hie hand on his heart, and declare on his hononr,
that such a proof would not make the slightest difference Us his
mind, as to pawing that Bill which was to ruin the Queen,
The Ar roue v-Gemenet. replied at Wine length to the
arguments of her Majesty's Counsel. Mr. Williams had argued
the questions keep/ . but Mr. I:roughen) had given up the legal
er-ument, anti lual contended, that whether legal or not, the eve
dace ought to be admitted. He contended, that, according to
the rules of 1.. w and the principles of justice, the evidence could
not be admitted.
COUR,Vi were then ordered to withdraw. aed a long debate took
place. but being streussoilsl9opposed by the Lord Chancellor, it
was on his motion cluchled u. 14 the question should not be init.—
Counsel were ihett called in, and the determinat'.on of the House
.communicated to them.
The witness Antonio Mod was new callen to the liar, and ex•
amined by Mr. Williams.
. You stated yesterday, that you went with Zanr;la from Venice
to Milan ?—I
DA rou return with Zangla to Venice?...Yes.
flow many days were you at Milan e... Two clays.
What is the distance form Milan to Venice e...one hundred
and eighty-tire Miles.
Did you pay your own expences, or did any one pay them for
you 1.,.1 did not pay oven ;me hundiedth pert of a lore; Zang:a
paid the whole.
Had you any business of your own at Milan
Had Zangla any as it stage manager ur othery ise. None.
Did you see Zangla do any thing else then go the (Torts)
Orlentalo and the Rue Cabello ?...floe went also to look •,tier a
we. on of the name of Wand, a sort of second manager ut the
theatre.
You told us, yestenlay, you saw Zangla come down stairs
hem Cud, Brown with a numbet of Napoleons in bill hand
Yes, I did,
At that t4as did he make you any oiler ?
The Attorsey-Genersl objected to the question.
MG WILLIAII3...*It is a question se to a Sim

THE NATIONAL REGISTER

The SouctToniGiVZSALls.sMai we *Oa to doe fact al
as est Dane Mr. xase.....Ans I then r uederstand that the &shit*
ofyour Lordships is to apply to all other evidence that we may
have ready to adduce of similar alba having been made to
suborn and bribe
The LORD CBANCELLOIL—Mr. Brougham, it would be
infinitely too daring to give an answer to your queraion. The
House can only decide upon each question as it arises.
Mr. Reouostase.—We can tender no other kind of evidence
than an bring she ease of • y nearer to the Milan Cam
mission than that which your l hips are pleased to reject.—
We have not Rastelli to produce. we have not RqPlsti to pro-
duce; we have no means of compelling their apparance. AB
that we can do we are reedy to do. but your Lo sbrd ps seem to
say. that all we east 4,6 Ono avail. I understand your Lord-
ships to be of thatepheise; that the calling on Col. Brown, the
bringing out of missy front Wm. and sisewal that money as a
bribe received to bear evidence vibe her Majesty, are cumin.
steam I.= to connect tbe balmy with the agents of the
Miles If so, I aiiinly ssy that you cut thus the
clue of our ease; we can, situated as we arc, Rastelli being
withdrawn from us. and Regrind beyond our reach. produce no
stronger evidence than we have antlered. and your Lordships
have rejected. If Midi is the decision your Lordships have come
to. then we need not carry further the line of evidence on which
we had entered.
The I.OIW CHANCELLOL—AII I an say. without
taking the sense of the House on the subject. is. that me question
of calling other witnesses must be left entirely to your own dis
cretion, and I stn sure it cannot be left to any better discretion.
Mr. firm trortax.—Then we have no further questioh to put
to the witness Meoni.
The ATTOMNEY-GEWERAL declined any aoss examination.
By Lord LAUDEIWALE.—When you saw the Napoleons
in the hand of Zartgla. were they loose, in bap, or in papa P...
He had a handtul. and a large hand he has h--tA laugh.)
lied you any concern with the theatre at Pesaro P... Never.
By Lord DABNLEY.—Do you know whether Zan& was
ever in the service of the Prinee.s?...l do not.
Riomarigo &kudos was now called in, and examined by Mr.

Denman.
lam from Treviso. lam Professor of Literature, Teacher,
of the Italian and Latin languages, and I reside at Lausanne. in
Switzerland. In 1818 I was at Leusanne, and saw Sacchi. He
held a conversation with me On the subject of the proems against
her Royal Highness.
Did he ntake say application to you en the subject.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL, objected to this question=
the ground, that the declaration of Sacchi. given by
wrsun, was use admissible under such circumstances, Sacehi not
having beset peeved to be an agent.
Mr. Dumas said. Ibis object in additte gallon was to
prove that limichl had assured the Mamas his Maw maid
be made if he gave widows_ epic *Mr
pad if to
hew that die widow of laalit_ arleid=m
inadmissible. The agwasy elleacia MI bean by the
evidence of De Mont and imam wham. He could poovo. that
at Lausanne. Sacchi padastoad acts sender the Ceamhoioa.....
Their Lordships would be guilty of the worst of Wader. ltdia
would now refuse to open *air eyes to a oinepieati
for such base purposes. If. then, Sacehi was known to be NI
authorised agent going about and abusing the authority anew
which he was &chug. could their Lordships refine to hear
dente in proof of such vile employment?—lf it was lawful to
inquire into the acts of the Milan Commission, it was surely
competent to their Lordships to inquire into the roadact of the
agents of that Commission, in gathering the evidence against her
Royal Highness.
Lord ESKA NE said, that with respect to the (Moths of the
credibility of SiccEi as a witness. it, in his tints, a proof bad
been offered of the attempt of a person to corrupt witamses. he
should nonce proceed to the proof. and calculate upon the RIM
of the investiganon as of the most decisive kind.
Lord GREY said, that such a connection had been established
between the Milan Commission and Sacchi, that it became in-
dispensably neoesary to prove the nature of his employment.
and if a person could be proved to have attempted to corrupt
ethos to swear falsely, what doubt could be entertained of his
willingness to swear falsely himself? The proof of a corrupt
agency.upon the part of a witness, destroyed the credibility of that
waness.

Counsel were then called in..
The ATTORNEY GESEILAL objected to the admission of
evidence which was brought forward to impeach the testimony of
Snag. in the way it was now attempted to be dons.
Mr. Stoneman said, Socciii had notice of the charges against
bias. He came to their Lonlahips bar is a witness, and all his
=
Is in this business was known to him. This took the
ease out of the enteral rule. And he would ask, who
weld holism a man who bad, in the same cause, proved himself
a sublime of pekiury ?
Mr. PARER rejoined. and argued thews on its legal merits.
The LORD CIIANCELLER wished. as in former cases, to
co.:_ult the opinion of the Judges on the subject. and he proposed
that the following questions should be put to them—" Whether,
in the administration of justice in the Courts below, when a wit-
ness foe the prosecution had been examined in chief and had not
been cross-examined as to any declarations he bad made, relating
to his procuring witnesses for the prosecution, whether the Coun.
soh foe the defence could bring evidence to prove such declaration.
without tint calling on the witness to know if he had ever made
such declaration r
The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought there was a very easy way
of getting rid of all the difficulty, without putting the question
to the Judges, or losing the time of their Lordships. There was
one way in which the question might be rendered admissible,
and that was, by calling up Sacchi. and reexamining him.—
This, he thought, was a mode of proceeding to which them could
be no objection, and therefore he submitted to their Lordships
that flaccid should be called to the liar.
The LORD CHANCELLOR enquired of the Counsel on both
sides, if they had any objection to Saccht being recalled to the
bar.
Mr. Buoying...n-4R v Lord, the hat time we called for a
witness he was not to be found.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Iint if he is to be found,
have you any objection to his being called, and when do you
wish it?
*6 Now, now, my Lotd," both from Mr. Brougham and Mr.
Denman.
Lord ERSKINE said, that th r question proposed to be put to
the Ju.lges by the Noble and Learned Lord on the %Veto:sack,
did not meet his view of the case. He (Lout Erskine) would
propose another, to the following ellfeett—" If on any trial a
withesa is called on the pert .of the plaintiff; and gives evidence
against the defendant; and if, after the cross-examination, it is
discovered that the witness ,o examined has imileavouretl to cor-
rupt persons to give evidence against the tl‘tentiiint, whether
Counsel for the deteiniunt may nut be allowed to adduce evidence
of 4'lol corrupt acts is'e
The Earl of CARNARVON said. that it was of nu use to
refer to tile Jtiagoi for their opinion, since it was 111i1J1VC,1 on all
hands, that in the end, the house wore not bound to abiee by
that opinion. lit hie judgment, the question proposed was eOll.
sicent with every object substantial justice, and lee would
therefore move at once, that instead of retorting the qw‘tions
proposed to the Learned Judges. •• the questions proposeu by the
Counted for liar Majesty shuual be now put."
ht LORD CHANCELLOR then said, Is it your Lord.
ships' pleasure the question proposed be answered ?"
ft was negatived without a division, and the ROWS adopted
the motion for sending tin question to the Judges, via. .6 Who.
thee. to any trial in the Come below. where a hisses is ogled

839

to give evidence in such cause. and after aosamtaminsdoilltk
discoveryd that he corrupted. or endeavoured to corrupt. ether
witnesses. Counsel may be at liberty to give 'wideness of the fan.
without calling back the witness ?"
The LORD CHANCELLOR handed the question in writing-
to the Lord Cider Justice. _ _

LorefEitiiffsK. Oleo moved an acliouronasat, end dis Howse
accoedingly adjourned.
stAThENTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE. '
711111 DAT. OCT. 20.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN, precious to the Consul
being called in, moved that their Lordships' order of the
21st of Augn.t, for the attendance of witnesses, from
day to day, daring the continuance of these proceedings
shonid be read.

The order was read accordis•ely; when the Noble Mar-
quis said, after what had passed yesterday. be felt it right
to call their Lord.hip's attention to this order. Previous
to the question being put to the ink's yesterday. a Noble
Earl (Liverpool) proposed that, to save time Saechi should
be called back; and he understood the Counsel for the
Queen acceded to it, if be should be called immediately;
but it appeared he was not in attendance so as to be called
immediately; and Indeed, be understood that he was not
even in towu. (Yes. he was, from Lord Liverpool).—
Then he was not within call. If lie had, all the tins*
wasted In discussioa wo •Id have been saved. Under
these eirenntstances he Theught their Lordships should
enforce this order, and not let it be a dead letter un the
table.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL certainly understood that
Sacchi might have been called, had the Counsel required
it. As to their Lordships order being enforced, be could
have no objection. Indeed be thought the witnesses
ought to be In such a siteetion during the 'proceedings as
would enable them to attend instantly if required.
did not understand that the Queen's Counsel did se
require the attendance of &mein yesterday.
The Marquis of LANSDO WN understood Mr. Bennett.
am, when he was asked, if he wished Simla to attend
to say " yes, now."
After a few words from Loud Lauderdale mid Lord
Redesdale, the subject dropt, with an understanding, that
their Lordships order was to be enforced.
Counsel were then called in. and the Lord Chief Justice
of the Lars Bench proceeded to declare the opinion of
the Judges on the questions referred to them last night by
the Lord Chancellor and Lord &sling, and declared their
opiaioa that both questions should be answered In the
negative; and that before a witness could be ezausifted
to the declaration of a former witness, the witoess meat
be called back, aid interrupted as to those declare.

The LORD CHANCELLOR. then addressed Mr.
Brougham, and said sense differences d opinion ridged
as to the questions put to him yesterday, and his answer
to it as to calling Secebif be would sow ask his, did he
desire to call him.
Mr. Bnovottsx said, he certainly expressed his wish
to call him yesterday, had he been fortlicomieg, but he
was not eow disposed to call him.
Lord SIDMOUTH thought it right to state to the
House that a messenger was sent to Succhi's house yester-
day, and hr was coining down to attend their Lordships
when he was met by several Noble Lords, who told hi:ts
the House had adjourned.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then pot it to their Lord-
ships to adopt the opinion delivered by the Judges.
Lord GREY would not oppose the decision of the
Judges, but he considered there was still another ground
on which this question might be put, and that was, that
&mai bad been proved by Its acts the agent of the
Milan Commission.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not assent to this
opinion of the Noble Earl, for the reasons formerly ergs!
to their Lordships, he still continued of opinion no &gem,
was proved.
Lord ERSKINE thought the Counsel would yet be well
justified in requesting their Lordships to receive this
evidence, notwithstanding the opinion of the Learned
Judges, fur whom he bad the highest respect. Their
Lordships should consider they were not strictly a
Court of Justice, and therefore ought not to consider
themselves strictly bound by the rules of a Court ef Law.
The Noble Earl opposite had declared ar.inst sitting as
a Court of Law when he decided against proceeding by
impeachment, because he said adultery, if wowed, was
not a crime at cooninon law: and was the Queen to be
subjected to all the ineonvenieures mud injustice art the
proceedings now instituted her, and have noes
of it. advantages ? fie would details the House no fur-
ther in argument, than to say that he should vote for the
eaatnipation proceeding.
Lord DARNLEY contended, that the agency bid been
proveu on that part of Saachi, by his own answer in
several parts of his examination.
Lord MANNERS thought, as the rules of evidence had
been so strictly adhered to on the one side in these pro.
ceedisogs, it was equally essential to the euds of jotitive.
that they should be *din:sot to on the other. He thought
it .houid be referred to the Judges to say,,whether artier
hail been proved or nut.
Lord LANSDOWN could never consent to refer to the
Judges any queciou of trot; styli would hr the case if
they were to rat r to the Leap tied Persons to say, whether
agency had been ;moved oi not.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said lie would, with this
consent of their Loodshlps, now put the question to the
House,that this question should now be put to the witness.
Upon this their Luidships divided, when the numbers
were, for the question being put.-51 ; against it Li 9.
The Moorquis of LANSLid v 1 NE said, he formerly gave
notice tout when chi. head tit defence tea, closed. he slinield
hove a prllptlt 114 II l 0 cosnmwii ate to their Lovol.iiip.ss 7 He
tlauugnl it sight to Mate Ilia li.1111.•io
the recollection of Lbeir Lortloliip• thiait•itt .the Arinwnce..
nmeut of these proceedings, the rut:C:oo.ot* keeping the wit-
nesses fin this (punt ry Att. staled tuhJ,aKnxed to on pll .14,4116.
It would also be ireolleeted thaw .utiiratry Its the-tin-v:oms
of i:)eir Lorolahips, it must 1141 .NIIIIC.I* NIA ithlehled
and out only peroieitico..tiut bud lies OW Of
IIIC wintry. The ii:eot fur the Lad toe,cuesortussed'un
this point Lurci.loi pi bur t awl hod, ill the enure*. of

. xuntiu i mt>hutd, tika ha. eraaotal Jur sondteigi Mn..
tclit tool ut the boon's), %%ere to snake hiw the stetaeutter to
hear toratioutioh I* the friend. of the ititoeurb Who *CM to
thea eOtiotry. IOW to convey isuporteut par to to Cot. ft roma.
ti !leo que,tit“,e.l us so 1.1 tete aro try Brown
whit tt c istueitto.&ud coatataattatioue from Gut.
Ileurtil oil she ealljeet of katetelles arival at Mateo. sod
betas required to prudeve sure letters, blt. l'eweltdeeleued
to produce teen.. es the arousals tbat he WM as sicat as 4
aft at Lawn; Is divulge the secreted Um prieci lf.w

be submitted, that Mr. Powell could not shelter himself under
the character of an agent; but that their Lordships were
bound, for their honour, to call for those letters. Who was
the principal of Mr. Powell? why, their Lordships. lie was,
iu fact, their Lordships' agent, and was bound to give them
all the information they required. Would their Lordships set
up'an imaginary principal to defeat the ends of justice, turd
principal too, whose Mimesis could not he etketed by the
communications required; since Mr. Powell had stated on
his oath, as he declared, all the reasoas • hich induced hint
to send him Itastelli to the Continent, and that the only
Cause for his not returniug. 3t far as he, Mr. Powell, was
informed, was sickness, If these were the real reasons,
nothing more would appear in the letters he required, and
no:injury could arise from the production of these letters to
any principal of Mr. Powell's, w inserter that pt metpul might
be. Hi should now, therefore move that Mr. Powell be
called to the bar, mil ordered to produce such part of the
correspondence between him and Col. Brown as 'limed to
the animism of Rastelli to Milan. and the arose of his present
absence; or if their Lordships should think it preferable he
would move that suck letters should be referred to a Secret
Commille of their Lon/slop s House, fur theta to report
"pun.
Lord LIVERPOOL saw great objections to this motion*
Allowing that Mr. Powell was the agent of the House, still
he was protected in this case against being called on to
produce these papers. The Noble Marquis has spoken of
this correspoodeace, and the power of the House over it, as
if it was a public document; but in his case, mod in tbe
character in which their Lordships were sitting, it was, to
all harms and purposes, a private, confidential correspuad.
mice between an agent and his principal, and on all the
rules of law and justice, ought to be held sacred. As to the
act ofsending Rastelli oat of the country, it was one oa
which there could be no difference of opinion; it was a
most imprudent act; but it was the act of one of the agents
in the cause without consultation with any other agent;
and he could not consent that such an act should be
made a foundation for committing an outrage on one of the
moat sacred rules for law and equity, by forcing an agent to
the breach of confidence towards its principal.
Lord KING was decidedly of opinion the motion of his
Noble Friend ought to be adopted. The Noble Earl had
acknowledged the impropriety of the act of sending Kasten'
out of the country. Ho would go further, be would say that
any common case brought forward in any of the Courts
below, in which the agents of the party should thus have
conducted themselves, would have been put out of (Curt
with iadiguatioo by the presiding Judge. The Noble Earl
bad this day admitted much. Indeed be was the only one of
of his Majesty's Ministers who was heard on this occasitto.--
He knew not wheat. the Noble Lord's concaves thought
to shelter themselves behind their silence, but though they
said nothing, he swot& tell them they were equally respon•
Bible with the Noble Lord. A Noble and Learned Lord
bad said be had uto wishes us to this Bill one way or the
other.—Now, thus, to appearance, shriuking from resistors
"ability, would at first sight declare the present administra-
tion as wanting nerve—but this lie would say, in his opinion
aster since the day suf the ceiebrated Cabal had there been
an Adnainistrat' pusscssiog %slouch nerve, or who nad been
engaged luso wicked a proceeding.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN E contended that the Rouse
was fully authorised on Mr. Powell to produce these letters.
He was maims that the truth shaman be got at; mid as saute
Noble Leith thought this night be done by a Secret Com-
mittee, he would withdraw his pretwout 'notion, nnJ submit
another, which was " That a Secret Committee be ap-
pointed, to examine the correspondence of Mr. Powell and
Col. Brown.
Earl GREY contended, that the confidence between
principal and agent would nit be violated by the production
of these papers. if their Lordships thought this inquiry
ought not lobe prosecuted then the a hole of these proceed-
ings should terminate instantaneously, and if their Lordships
acknowledged an act of injustice had been committed which
they could not remedy, and into which they could nut inquire,
be would then move the immediate termination of these
proceedings. The Noble Earl concluded by moving as an
amendment, or rather as addition to the original motion,
that the Secret Committee have power to examine Mr.
Powell as to the authenticity of the contracts made to him.
The LORD CHANCELLOR put the qattatioa, as amended
by Earl Grey, when the House divided—
Contents ► . .
Nun-Contents
lifiljerity in favour of appoiatiag a Committee.. 43
The following Peers were them appointed on the Cam

Eliette :..

The Lord President of the I Lord Ellenborough,
Caramel, Earl ad Lauderdale,
Earl Grey, Lord Erskine,
Earl of /heady°, I Lord Russ,
Lord Manners, Lord Amherst,
Lord Arden, Marquis of Lansdowne.
On our re-admission hate the House, we found Mr.
Bstacuee AII addressing their Lordships. He said, the eaa •
mination of Mr. Powell had only hese partially gone into;
it might be necessary to call that gentleman 'gale. Be
(Mr. Brougham) thought that the truth of the case could not
be got at without aecuriag the production of she whole cur.
respondence of the puttee, to which, if there was nothing
wroug, there could he no objection.
Lord CARN ARVON thought that her Majesty's Counsel
should nut be eicloded from examining Mr. Puaeil again.
He would 110* move, that Mr. Powell he called to the Bar.
Lord DARNI.RY did nut know with what appearauce
'erif justice their Lordships could refuse the request of Counsel
to eternities Mr. Powell at the Bar. He could out mdiciently
express his couiesupt at this 'idioms and contemptible pro-
ceeding.
The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question, that Mr.
Powell he now culled to the Bar, which wise negatived
without a division.
Mr. BII.OUGH 11.—We will now call anesiser witness.
Akreader Olinertt seem, and examined by 14r. Tyadale.
You have berg ia the service of the Viceroy of
—I have, es Colonel.
Did you serve in the campus of Russia ?—I did. I was
at the halite of Leipsie.
When did you return from Russia T-4e thelBth of Fe-
bruary, 1813.
Were you after in the French tervicei—Yes, as Colonel.
When was you host introduced to her Royal Highness
the Princess of Welt s f —lit the month of November, 18 16,
at her villa at Como.
Who Introduced you to her Royal Highness e—Baron
Cavaletti.
1)o you recollect ever seeing liar Royal Highness at
Rome t—l du, in 1817, when she came to Rome mad re-
Mined there.
When did oho kart f —Mc beginidos of Jose.

THE NATIONAL REGISTER

Did her Royal Highness give you any invitation to visit
at has house l—Many dotes. Sae did me the hopper to
invite me to her table. _

Did she ever invite you to her villa at Pesaro P—Site
gave me an invitation iu the month of November.
Did you pay a visit P—ires, on the I I th of November.
Was her Royal Highness living at that time at the Villa
Caprivi P—Yes, she was.
Was any proposition made to you to join her Royal
Highness's suite P—There was.
In what situation was you to join her suite t—A s one
attached to her Court.

How long did you serve in that capacity ?—I continued
so till the month of November, in the fullouing year.
Did you then receive any other sppointtnent 2—l had
the honour of being one of her Chninuerlains. Bergaini
was the other. Tuerr was nobody the but Burgling and
myself. I remained iu that situation to the beginning of
last February. Ido not receive at this lime any pension
•r salary from her Alaleity. lam a mat rind Wan, have a
wife and daughter, and live at Rome. They were never
with me at Pesaro. I recollect her Royal Highness being
at Rome in the beginning of August, lel/. She set out
for Bologna.
Did you sup with her the day she set out ?—Yes, I bad
that honour.

At what time did she set ont t—At midnight.
Did you hand her into her carriage
What sort of carriage wu it ?—Ais English chariot.
Besides her Royal Highness, who got into the carriage?
—Countess Oldt and Bergami.
Was Vassali and Mr. ?Autumns on that journey?—Yes.
Did you see them in their carriage I—Y ea, I bowed to
them.
Have you ever since travelled in the carriage in which
her Royal Highness travelled that night P—Yes, but not
on that occasion.
Was it often used afterwards ?—Sometimes.
Do you know it very well?—Yes.
Who rode as courier on that occasion ?—I saw Carlo
Forti set out u a courier.

While you were joint Chamberlain with Bergami, what
were his manners towards her Royal Highness t—The
conduct of a respectful servant.
Did you ever are anything improper or indecorous iu
his conduct towards her Royal Highness I—Never.
Whim her Royal Highness was at Rouse, who were the
persons who visited bet I—Persons of the hrst nobility.
Can you name any of them ?-.-CaitlinalsGoimalvi,Rutfo,
Pidom, Carliagaixi, besides a greet 'sway others.
Do you recollect the Baroness Angliai it—She was one
who visited her Royal Highness.
Did you ever see tier Royal Highness in company with
the Pope i—No.
1)4 you know the Prince and Princess of Ciabriellio sod
the Duchess of Angriaril—Yes.
Was Beigatui presented to those persons as Chamber-
lain 7—Yes.

Whet company did lierßoyid Highness keep at Pesaro?
—The first of the nobility.
Du you know tile Governor ?—Yes.
Do you know the Archbishop of 2—Yes.
Did these persons visit her Royal Highness 2—Yes.
Has Bergami ever beets received into the houses of
these nubility, When her Royal Highness was nut present?
—I have seen it many times.
Have yon ever seen her Royal Highness, when walking,
take the ann of any gentleman of her suite ?—I have
sometimes had that honour.

What was the conduct and demeanour of her Royal
Highness towards the gentlemen of her suite ?—Affable,
but at the mine time dignified.
Alter her Royal Highness appeared in the morning,
who attended licit—All those belonging to the Court.
How did she generally pass her mornings?—After
breakfast she went to take an airing in her carriage; then
they all went to the library. and they all did write.
Did you ever see a carriage at Pesaro, belonging to her
Royal Highness, with en aprun to it I—l never saw such
• carriage.
I remained in France till the end of the year 1815. and
I went to Rome in 18141. I was not it the army when I
left France. I remained at Milan from the beginning of
Lila till November. 1818. All my family was at Rome at
the time I was away from them, because I had bad com-
mand of a regiment, and I had accounts to settle th.ro.
When I was with the army, I was in the regiment of
Rere. I was in that regiment after the battle of Waterloo.
at the retreat of the army ap to the time it was disbanded.
I entered the French service after my rebus from pri-
son, in Russia.
Were you in the service of the King before the return
of Buonaparte?—Never.
Not in February,
Iu what mouth, then, did you enter the French service?
—ln May.
What regiment was it you went to Milan to settle the
accounts of?—The Dragoons of A reels.
I have been irdemuitied by her Majesty's Advocate for
my expences.
Here Mr. Brougham asked the Interpreter the exact
tranmlation of the word which he had translated " Ade°.
cal e"—A vocal°.

The Interpreter said the woad meant any body in the
law. A Lawyer, or a Couissel.—(A laugh)—or a Judge—
(Great laughter.)
Who applied to you to come to England?—Nobody. I
wrote myself, for I thought it my duty to write to the
Queen when I saw by the newspapers a► Lugano that this
pi ocess was going on. I saw Ilergami at Rustle, when I
was in the service of her ti, yal Highness. I have not seen
dim since.

Have you received any thing besides your expenses ?
None. I have 861. fur my expenses. I was at Como once
in November, Int O. In the journey from Rome to Bane
galia, Mr. Hownam and Vassali were in separate car-
riages. Louis Beirgami was on that journey. Bchiavisil
set out on the following day. I think two or three car-
riages accompanied that of her Royal Highness. I know
the courier baechi. I did 110 i see him set out on that oc-
casion. I swear I did not. I saw Carlo Forte set out, but I
did not see lbe courier net out. They set out from the Villa
Grande. I saw Ueda almost every time at the Villa
Grande that I had the honour to dine at her Royal High-
ness's house. I do not know that he was always a
couricr. 6-r I have seen him in the dress of an hussar.—
/turbine ~ one of the Prineeia's ladies, continued with her
all the time she was nt the Villa Grande. I hsve always
wed her there. On the da)s l treat to dine tlitre, I don't
iecull t to have is en any Luitlish ladies, but I have seen
some of she Roams Nobility their. Louis Bergami some.
thall dined wit J her Royal if ighoess at Pesaro. Faustian ~

--a
his sister, did not dine there. Bergami's mother was a
Pesaro a little time. She seldom dined wilb her Royal
Highness, forst.e was always ill. I duu't know tbk wily of
Bergaini. I never yaw her.
Tile Earl of LIVERPOOL.—In what situation was
Faustianit in the service of her Royal Highness T—l cannot
know fur certain, because it was slut iu my depaitment to
enquire.
Earl GREY.-1 wish to know whether the witness was
acquainted with Sacchi before he went min the service of
her Royal Iligbue-s.-1 had known him ut Rome before I
wean to the'service of her Royal Highness.
Had you known him is the ul my of Italy 9—Never.
Toe Earl of LAUUERDALE.—I wish to know n here
the witness saw tile newspaper containing an account of the
;igitisist the Queen Y—At Rowe I did.
The L 0111) CHANCELLOR then suggested that it wns
four o'clock, and the House adjourned.
SEVENTEEN l'H HAY OF THE DEFENCE.

SATURDAY, OCT. 'LI.
The House met this day at the usual hour. and prayers
were read by the Bishop ut Samos..
At tweuty -five minutes past teu u'clock Counsel were
called iu.

If,. Bituvostam handed to their Lordships Lieut. How.
uam's diploma of the Order of Carohue.
Mr. Posegu. appeared at the liar with the extracts from
his Curresvuudence with t.oh. Bruwu. He said that it was
not from disrespect to their Lordships, or frog any personal
feeliug•, that he bad felt any reluctduce its producing the
letters, but from the peculiar sittiatiou iu which lie stood,
and the arose of ditty which be owed to his client.
The Earl of LARNARVON understood that the Secret
Committee were to have the meaus of verifying the extracts
from the letters, and of satisfying themselves that the
were relatiug to the mission ut Rastehi should be gis en.
'I he Earl of LIVERPOOL thought the must regular way
would be, not to ask Mr. Pooch any questions at present,
sluice, if the Committee were uut satisfied, they could
amine hint.

Earl DARNLEY contended, that it was the right of any
Peer in that Hou.e to examine every person that appeared
at their Lordships' Bar.
Earl GREY wished the papers to be banded to the Com.
ruittee and left with them.

Mr. P.Avell was then sworn to give true evidence before
the Committee, whenever he might he called upon.
Tomes* Loge Nastier! was then called ins and examiued
by Mr. Wylde.
Where du you live ?—Near Como.
What is yuur Octupatiou ? —A fisherman.
Were you at any time employed as boatinau to the Prin.
eess of Wales?—Ye., 1 a■s.
D.. you know Ginsrppi (Snigger, ?-1 tics
What is be ?—Auuther tishermau.
Were yot. ever in a boat with the Princess of Wales and
Bergami ?-1 have.
Did you ever see either of those persons kiss the other
in the boat i—No.

Io what part of the boat did her Royal Highness sitt--
On the left.

Did you ever sit so as to see her Royal flightless ?...1 did.
Was the boat lighted P—)t was.
Are you quite sure you uever saw any kissing take place?
The SOLICITOft.GENARAL objected to the questinu.
• . Mr. WTLDN said, he called ibis witness to contradict a
witness who had been called out the part of Ike Mill, and
therefore he wished to know if the witness wa► quite certatu
of what he stated.

Cross-examined lsy the Solicitor-General.
How many times have you conducted her Royal High.
tress from Cumo to her Villa?—Precisely I cannot !ay;
but I can say positively Leta or twelve times.
Wll3 sat in the carriage beside her Royal Highness and
Bergansi ?—Fur the most part some womeu ; also, at
times,the Pudesta (Magistrate) the Pi elect, the Physician,
uul other gentlemen.
lu goiug from the theatre to the Villa, did they not some.
times go Moue?—Never, the boat was always full of geu.
tlemen.

Are you a married man, and haveyou children ?w-lhave
a wife and children.
14 any thing paid to them s—Yes.
What ?-ous livre to my wife, and half a 'lyre to my
children.

Do you menu a here a day I—Yes.
Do yt.o pay all your own expeuces here. or are they
paid fur you?—That I Jou% kuuw ; they hare fixed at two
Napoleuus a Jay For the expenses.
Who do you expect is to 'ay you ?—Coriasii.
When you saw Cutlaxsi. did you see, while the business
was going tin, a youug luau witu foie eye ?-110.
Who was it took down iu writiug your deposition IL-.
Cutleni.

Was there on Clerk thereat that time ?—tio.
Where do yam live now!—We live uut uf tuwo.
How malty of you are there !—AI t 430 or `2l.
How far is it from the house where the Queeu lives ?awl
have nut ?leen to see the House of the Que. l.
Do you all live in the same house ?—All. We all dine
at the ►ame table, and breakfast and talk tugetker.
How often hose you seen Vassals and
14 Satolitio Gurgiaui there ?—He is ir. the House—we are
all the e a furtuight.
Was it at the request of Gurgiaui that you cams hers

Re•rxsntiued by Mr. Wylde.
h there a guard a here you are ?—Yes, there is a key itt
every door.
Can you go nut when you please ?-1u the house there is
a key which lucks the house ; but we go to bed ar night.
Fur *hove expenses were the two Napticuull to be
allowed i—For victuals.
Fur how many ?—For each person.
What sort uf Napoleons, gold or silver'—Silver, four of
which make a gold Napolruu.

Count Carlo Vona sworn, and examined by Mr. Drosthaw.
—I am a native of Milan, and have the honour of being an
Equerry to the Queen of England. I have been a Captain of •
Squadron of Dragoons in the Italian army. I first became
acquainted with her Majesty at the Villa of Gen. Piro. I dined
with her there. I know itergami, who dined there also. She
invited me to accompany lier on a journey. I went with her
from Milan to Turin, and afterwards on her tour to Germany. I
set out from Milan as Vice Equerry, and remained in that caps-
city till her Royal Highness went to Caprivi. in ISM After-
wards I entered her se:vice as Equerry, and continue so. Der-
gami was Chamberlain to her Royal Highness. I have seen her
Royal Highness and Iletgami walking together, sometimes coin-
lag out of the garden. When I saw mem, I myself was at a little
distance. I remember that her Royal Highness dined with the
King of Bavaria. Ilergami dined at the table of the King, who
talked to him with the greatest affability. I was at the Barons
with her Royal Highness at the time the balls were given, aced at
the Carnival. The Prefect Tomasini, Baron Cavalelte, the Cu