The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-08 00:00:00

certain expenses connected with criminal prosecution in
Ireland, had not been carried out.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER remarked
that. the arrangement referred to was based upon the prin-
ciple of placing equivalent charges upon the two countries.
At present the charge for the constabulary and some other
items in Ireland were borne by the Consolidated Fund,
which in the English counties were for the most part paid
out of the county rates.
Mr. HENLEY hoped, in any change the right hon. gen-
tleman might contemplate in reference to the reformatory
schools, the law as to the liability of the parent to main-
tain the child would not be interfered with.
Sir G. GREY said it was not his intention in any way
to alter the law, but merely to propose certain changes in
the machinery by which that law was administered.
Sir J. DUCKWORTH expressed an opinion
'overnment did not contribute liberally enoug that the
to the sup-
port ofthe reformatory institutions. Five shillingsa,lvrecreek
each was not, except where the establishment was ,
- sufficient to maintain these juvenile
criminals.
Mr. ADDERLEY concurred with the right hon. member
for Oxford, that the law in reference to the liability of
parents should be maintained, but
suggested that that
liability should not apply in the case of children over 14.
He thought the emigration of the children from their re-
formatory institutions a mistake. England could not, at a
time like this, afford to lose her citizens. At all events, if
these children were sent to the colonies he thought they
should be sent out at once, and not be kept in reformatory
institutions, at a considerable expense, for three or four
years.
Sir G. GREY could conceive nothing more mischievous
than to send these boys abroad at once to earn their living
in a colony without undergoing any probation, and with-
out any attempt being made to reform there. If such a
system were acted upon it would be an inducement to all
the evil-disposed boys in the country to commit crime, in
order to-be sent abroad at the Government expense.
Mr. R. PHILLIMORE thought children of tender years
sight not to be made the subject of criminal jurisprudence.
He suggested that in this respect the canon law should
be followed, which fixed nine years of age for girls and
10 for boys as the age when they could be made account-
able for their acts.
After a few words from MT. BARROW,
Mr. FLOYER, in reference to an item in the vote of
3,6001. for the maintenance of criminal lunatics in Bethle-
hem H?spital, complained that the arrangements in respect
to criminal lunaticsgenerally was most unsatisfactory. He
believed there were 500 or 600 criminal lunatics in the
country, 'under confinement, altogether, while the item in
the vote Ite:alluded to took account only of 107. He wanted
to know what was the principle of selection, or why the
expense of maintaining the others should be charged upon
tile,nniety rates ? He also urged the great inconvenience
of
placing criminal lunatics in the ordinary county asylums
etacAher' lunatics, and often to the exclusion of other
lunatics, who ought to be placed there.
Sir G. GREY said the expense of the maintenance of
erimifial lunatics was defrayed by the Government. He
admitted the inconvenience of confining criminal lutaties
in the same asylums with those who were placed there
temporarily, and in the hope of recovery, but it was con-
sequent upon there not being sufficient space at Bethlehem
to receive the whole number of criminal lunatics. His
attention would, however, be turned to the subject, with
the view to.increase the amount of accommodation avail-
able for that-purpose.
The vote was- then agreed to.
A vote of 59,4051. for expenses connected with the tran-
sportation of convicts was also passed.
On the motion of 297,6211., for expenses of convict esta-
blishments abroad,
Sir G. GREY, in reply to a question put by Captain
Scobeil, said that the redaction in the expense of the con-
vict establishments had not been so great as might have
been expected from the reduction in the number of con-
victs abroad, but this was in consequence of the larger
salaries which had to be paid in the colony since the gold
discoveries in all the Government establishments. The
expense was, however, in course of diminution. Western
Australia, which was the only colony to which convicts
were now sent, received about 600 or 700 a-year.
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. WILSON said that the next vote was that for edu-
cation in England, and as a sum had been taken on ac-
count, be would postpone it, in order that the discussion
on the subject which was expected might take place.
Mr. MACARTNEY hoped that the estimate No. 4 would
not be pressed, as several of the items would lead to d ecus-
'ion, and in consequence of the alteration in the bu' iness
for the night a number of gentlemen who intended tt take
part in that discussion were absent.
On the vote of 215,200/. for Public Education in Is land
being put,
Mr. &lACARTNEY moved that it be postponed, t oge-
ther with all the other items in the estimate.
Mr. WILSON said that the vote for English ednc•
had been postponed at the request of several gentle oen,
but he hoped the house would go on-with the other votes.
Mr. DISRAELI said that the cireumstances whichca used
the derangement of the business that night was one of rare
occurrence ; but he thought the Government ought, ent of
the 17 orders on the paper, to select some business to be
proceeded with. He thought the votes both for English
and Irish education should not be pressed, and indeo:l the
whole of the estimate No. 4. He also thought that the
Metropolitan Local Management Bill, which stood so low
on the paper that it could not be expected to be brought
on, should not be pressed that night.
Lord PA.LNIERSTON said that the estimate No. 4
should be postponed. With regard to the Metropolitan
LOcal-Management Bill, he did not know whether his oght
bon. friend was prepared to go on with it or not.
Sir B. HALL said he proposed to go on with the ,0111.,
mates on that bill as far as the 46th clause, which we
raise some discussion ; but he believed there was no objec-
tion to the other parts of the bill.
Mr. DISRAELI said that he understood that bill was not
to be brought on that night—although the right hon. gentle-
man thought there would be no objection taken till they
arrived at-the 46th clause, he should remember that there
was an important question on going into committee, and
it was necessary to see whether the bill would make any
alteration in Hobhouse's Act before the house went nto
;ts merits. There ought to be a clear understanditp; as
lowhethoe they were to go on with the bill or not.
In answer to Mr. HADFIELD,
Sir G. GREY said due notice should be given of the
clay when it was intended to proceed with the educ:, lion
vote.

Lord EBRINGTON wished to know if his right hon.
friend meant to postpone the Metropolitan Local Alan-
&gement Bill?
Sir B. HALL said—Looking to the number of notices
before it, he had thought it would not have come on that
night, but when he found that there had been an al era-
tion in the business of the evening, he sent a note to his
noble friend's house stating that he would try to get i , on.
Lord EBRINGTON said he had not received the )cote,
and he understood that the bill was not to come on.
On the next vote, 4,0501. for defraying the charge of the
colony, being put,
Mr. BARROW moved that the chairman report pro-
gress, in order, as he said, to put the matter techni,_ ally
right.
Lord PA.LMERSTON said that a motion to report pro-
gress would not effect the object, of the hon. gentleman ;
for if that was clone his right hon. friend would bria;c on
his bill immediately. It would be better to go on with
the votes in supply, and then if the house was in a condi-
tion to go with the bill it might be proceeded with, but if
not, it could be postponed.
SCAfter some further conversation,
Sir B. HALL said he would not bring the bill on that
night.
In answer to Mr. MIDFIELD,
Mr. WILSON said that the vote for the Belfast Thcolo-
gicaUrofessors would not come on that night.
Mr. BARROW then withdrew his motion ; and
The vote for the charge of Bermuda was agreed to.
The following votes were also passed :-
7,3971., for the charge of the ecclesiastical establishwent ,
in the British North American colonies.
7,0101., for the Indian department in Canada.
24,7281., for the salaries of the Governors in tho Trost
Indies and certain other colonies.
24,7501., for the salaries of stipendiary justices in the
West Indies and Mauritius.
10,6301., for the charges of the civil establishment of the
western coast of Africa.
11,0371., for the charges at St. Helena.
9761., for Heligoland.
2,807/., for the Falkland Islands.
On the vote of 3,8001. for Hong-Kong,
Captain SCOBELL said that he believed the governor
had no salary as such, but had 5,0001. a year as chief cot sul
or superintendent. Two years ago it was objected that .he
salary of the governor (6,0001.) was too large, but now the
governor and lientenant-governor had 7,0001. betty een
them, which was an increase on the former charge.
Sir G. GREY said that Sir J. Bowring's expenses were
great, and his duties requiring him to be taken away voTY'
often from Hong-Kong, it was necessary to have a lieJt.-
governor on the spot.
The vote was agreed to.
On the next vote, 16,2701., for the expenses of the Colo-
nial, Land, and Emigration oard, and of the emigre ;ion
officers at the different ports of the kingdom,
Mr. SPOONER wished to call the attention of the ilo-
vernment to the question as to whether it was not time to
stop emigration. We could not now afford to lose our re ,-
pulation. He did not mean to object to the vote, but oily
to call attention to the subject.

Sir G. GREY explained that the Emigration Board w Is
not intended to promote emigration, but to protect cull-
grants against fraud at the different ports of emigration by
means of agents, and especially those going to N. -th
America. With regard to emigrants to Australia, no
funds were supplied by Government, but money aril, vg
from the sale of lands in lustralia was entrusted by he
authorities there to the Emigration Board, not for -Lim
purpose of encouraging persons to emigrate, but to makt + a
proper selection of persons who were sent out; and it w.is
desirable that such funds should be in responsible ham; s.
After a few words from Mr. J. MACGREGOR,
Xr. SPOONER objected to the expense of a board the
clues of which were so small.
oeeltar.G. GREY said that the sum included the expenses
se. care
officers at the outports, whose duty it was to
care of ti2lta Properly shipped ; and, irrespective of the
tion Boarlitunds received from the colonies, the Eali,
carrying ouLkad the duty of superintending the agents .nd
ing report. oat
11,7 heavy correspondence, besides furry.ll-
one of the eo ..Inlet law. He believed, however, t. ,at
vacancy.inani*i°llers would be reduced on the lie tit
a tttlitt.rz;
In answer to /4..ra.a1k., .
Sir G. GREY
Colo authorities ch, ,se
to transfer the duty no,
Tate agents the Governr,„l;erfonned by the board to i,i not heard
heard
of
any
such
appointeetv °nig not object ; but be had
In answer to Lord R. CEcirnt of a private agent.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that elan). wa about to b., in-
troduced on the subject of waste lauds in Australian
Colonies.
Captain SCOBELL complained of there b.;
sipdrearseedatlyt
• tion between Plymouth and 1..; being n° P 'ft for emigre
of . iverpooi and
1 gt, 3-
Sir
the establishment one at Bristol.
Sir G. GREY said the
.subjeck had been con.
on Commissioners in a memorial
the Emigration
from Bristol, and their report did not justify
t the tbr"ving t"
expense of such an establis men on public.
The vote was then agreed to.
On'the next vote, 10,5001.,
'la-answer to Mr. J. M`GREGOR and Colonel Durmr,
A,C,,r11. GREY said the vote was intended to defray . x-
n4s:incurred for a great number of emigrants in Cana. Is.
:o;4loifittlie year of the famine, for which a vote was take a
' , wit'year..but was not sufficient for the
The vote was agreed
for the to.
purpose.
10,090 t.
Africans was agreed to.
support of captured negroes and liberatNl
On the vote of 1t,2501 for theommissions for the Si p-
pression of the slave
said c
e
Captain SCOI3ELL it would be satisfactory ti 7't
there should be some
statement of the condition of the slave trade now as regarded e"
Lord PALMERSTON said uiltahaaatnhdeßbriezliielv.
believed,
as far 9
Brazil went, the matter wan satisfactory state. -: L-I?
had been informed--and the statement had been confirm o'l
by the Brazilian minister in this country that the impor•