The National Register.
London, England, 1812-02-02 00:00:00

liOt;sL OF COMMONS.

MONDAY, JAN.. 27.
• Mr. BANK ES gave notke of his intention to stew his motion respect•
ing the eussesslon of Si:at-cures anti Reversions.—( Hear I Hear I j
ROY AI, HOUSEHOLD BILL.
Mr. TIERNEY said, Ids object in rising was to propose that the Com..
mittee on the Bill before the House should be postponed to a more dis-
tant day. He m. 0.,. deemed it necessary to make some observationcup-
on the items of the Civil List. He meant here to pronounce no censure
o:1 the Righ' Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Percevat) who had assented cheer.
tuly to every proposition on his part respecting the production of pa.
pers, What hr vi..nted however to know,and to be accuratCy inform-
ed was, if any means existed, what those means were, of cui tailing the
present Civil List Expenditure ? To convince the House that this was a
rea•onab!e desire, he would call their attention to the year 1804, in the
session of which year Parliament had voted the sum of 65,0001. for the
Lot d Steward's department. The expenditure was nevertheless 84,0C:01.
being an'exeess of more than 20 per cent. He was completely instilled
in calling for further information, when he observed, that instead of
.10,01:01. the sum voted by Parliament for this department, there had
beta expended a sum of mow. He observed in the Bill some provi-
sions concerning the private prclpert of the Crown. By this Bill, three
Commissioners were appointed at the salary of 10001. each, to .protect
that private property of the Crown. He put it to the House what must
the amount of that property be which could afford 20001. per annum for
the sole purpose of auditing !—(Hear! Hear!) Nothing could he more
rkenuite from his wishes than to wound the feelings of any individuals
but he could nut help feeling some jealousy on the part of Parliament,
that an nnth was to lie administered to these Comniissluntrs, to bin/

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them to secrecy, and to prevent them from letting out the secrets of the i
prison-house !--It was, he observed, now 15 months since his Majesty
lied been acknowledged unfit to exercise the Royal Authority, and near-
ly 12 months since the Act, commonly known by the name of the Re—
gency Act. The whole line of his Royal Highness's conduct, he would
say, without the smallest tear of contradiction, had been expressive of
the warmest attachment to his Royal Father, and the strongest desire to
promote the comfort and the supposed wishee of that exalted pesson.
In return for this conduct, what was the present Bill declaring, but that
with respect to his Royal Father, he was not one whit more to be trusted
new, than be was a twelvemonth afro ! ( Hear, Hear ! ) and that no con-
duct of his could ever wipe out these suspicions ! (Hear ! ) The Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) seemed, from the smile on his coun-
ts nance, to he 1: amused with this expression, though, for his part, he
was really at a loss to know wherein the comicality of it consisted. If
he understood the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it appeared from
it that his Majesey's Civil List consisted in all to 960,0001. ; that out of
this amount of the Civil List, 60,0001. was paid to the Prince of Wales;
that there then remained 900,0001. in the Civil List, from which it was
proposed to take 170,0001; there was 100,0001. dest;ned for general ex-
pences, 60,0001. for a separate privy purse, and 10,0001. to the Queen,
while she had the care of his Majesty ; and that if this sum of 170.0001.
were taken from the Civil List, it would leave 730,0001. ; but it was pro-
rinsed, by taking only 100,0001. from it, and by paying into it 50,0001.
f rani the revenues of the Prince of Wales, to leave the Prince Regent
with a Civil List altogether 50,0001. less than his Royal Father. It may
he necessary to add here, that his Royal Highness enjoyed an income of
120,6001. of which sum only 50,0001. was to be paid into the Civil List,
leaving 70,0001. in his hands; so that, in fact, the total amount of money
at the disposal of the Prince was 2:.),0001. more than what was enjoyed
by his father. This was another subject on which further explanation
was necessary. This sum of 70,0001. was not to be added to the Civil
Idst ; it was a sum over which Parliament was to possess no controul.
He did not, for his part, know whether the sum of 170,0001. was too
touch or too little for the occasion, but he contended that he wee, en-
titled to know whether it was or not. He would not giv, his cons nt to
augment a private fund, which, in his opinion was too large alrea.ly.
( Hear, hear !)--and that, he would tell them, would be precisely the
effect of voting this sum. There would remain 35,0001. for medical
attendance. .Now lie really could not conceive how any thing like this
sum would be necessary for sweh a purpose; but let it be once proved
that it really was necessary, and there was pot a man in that Housewho
would more cheerfully consent to give it than himself. They were told
by the Right Hon. Gentleman that this sum was devoted by his R yal
Highness to the discharge of certain engagements of honour. ( Hear !j
Here he would discharge his duty and speak out. These engagements
of honour must mean debts—they could mean nothing else ! every man
in the country knew the situation of his Royal Highness, arid would at
once understand them in that light, and this 70,00e1. is to he applied in
gradually liquidating the debts of his Royal Highness. This was the
sum and substance of the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement to the
House, that on the faith of he income of 120,0001. his Royal Highness
had entered into certain engagethents of honour. If these engagements
were sifted, it would be found that no other reproach could attach to his
Kuyal Highness on account of them than a want of attention to his
affairs, negligence, and perhaps some degree of profusion. He should, in
his Own opinion, be wanting in his duty, if he did not say to the House
that they might to meet this difficulty fairly. He was desirous that the
whole of this subject should now undergo a full discussion in Parliament,
anxious as he was that the Prince on the Throne should have his mind
freed from all embarrassments and desirous that all the arrangements
should be placed on some substantial foundation, equally honourable to
the Prince and to the people. Why was the Queen to be placed at the
head of a separate Court ? ( Hear, hear ! ) He meant nothing here, but
that she was to have the separate and uncontroulable power, not con-
limitable even by the Treasury, of the 110 0001. augmented by that part
of the Privy Purse which was also at her disposal. Her Majesty had
Cot an establishment of her own, as Queen Consort, and thie. was a ne-
cessary part of the Civil List, and composed part of the splendour of the
Throne ; but re •v all this was to be withdrawn from it. And was this
not a new Court, if a sum of 220,0001. was to be voted to her Majesty,
with a Master of Horse, and the other officers which went in the train 01
a Court ? If all that did not constitute a separate Court, he really did not
know what a separate Court meant. The Queen was placed over a ,e-
-parate Court and armed with separate power and separate patronage.
He did not mean to say that her Majesty would ever condescend to carry
on intrigues against the Administration ; hut this could very well he
done by others in her name, who might find it very convenient to have
a separate Court to fall back upon, for the putpose of playing off their
manceuvres. After many other arguments and acute observations,
through which it is impossible for us to follow, lvii. Tierney thanked the
House for the attention they had shown him, and said he did not wish
to embarrass the Governintnt, but he could not help expressi g his dist.
approbation of going into a Committee at present on the Bill, thinking
it, would be preferable to put it off to a distant day, and thought that a
Committee should be appointed for entering into an immediate in-
vestigation of all the matters which could throw light on the subject.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, that Parliament now, without the least men.
mation, was called to vote that this arrear of 124,0091. was absolutely
necessary; and the House would remember, that it it did not amount to
that sum legislative interfereace was unnecessary.—Ministers insisted

that it must he incurred, out no noon eon vs a made ion it. D:
continued the Hun. Member, teems v:ith influence, and an it flnenk
which, if the Gentlemenplease, they may use either fur or against the
Crown. At all events he wished the postponement of this question.
Mr. Pea ervit r. said, that the I-Lene n-,ight be assured, that nothing
more had been asked of them than what wad indispensible to catty on
the Household as now established. It was cerainly true, as bad been
stated by the Right Hon. (leethoren (Mr. Tierney) that it was prop»
sera a salary of 10001. per annum should he granted to teach of these
'ommiasiouers. It had been found, however, since the period when
this arrangement was made, that there were persons who ‘N ere willing
to undertake the dinflo of that °nice, without any compensation, aml he
had therefore distinctly to state, that no salary tvhalever. would be given
to those Commissioners. What jolt objev ion, however there could
possibly be to the appointing of Commisaioetra to manage the King's
Private Property, he could not imagine. It was known that his Nlajtaty
had, and particularly about I.Viedsor, private estio es, which he had pur-
chased. It wao proper, therefore, that trustees or agents should be in'-
minated to have the care of these, and it was the duty of Parliament !o
look to their appointment. Mr. Perceval next adverted to the objections
founded upon the creation of a double Court. What, be asked, was
this second court ? What, after all, was this mighty source of alarm ?
This great Court, pig with so many momentary terrors to the Gentle-
men opposite; it was made up of four Lords of the Bedchamber, a
Groom of the Stole, and all the Pages (a laugh.) He red Bated it—and
even all the Pagel (a /ttaeli.) The Pages, surely, were not to be over-
looked, when Gentlemen were gravely considering the awful accession
of Parliamentary influence this second Court would acquire by virtue
of this BM (a laugh.)
Mr. PONIONRY, after a long and animated speech, expressed his de-
termination to oppose come objectionable parts of the Bill.
The House divided, on the question that the Speaker do leave the
Chair,—Ayes, 141 ; Noes, n 9 —Majority, S.
Mr. PERC EV s.L proposed that the tamer clauses, down to clause nth,
should be postponed, it being his intention to divide the Bill into two,
and to incorporate the ciao:es omitted into a separate Bill.
The 14th clause being read, by which it is declared that his Royal
Highness the Pi inee Regent has been graciously pleased to declare his
intention of transfering the sum of 5,0001. issued to him annually from
the Exchequer, in aid of the revenues of the Cieil List.
Mr. rIERN EY wished to know where that declaration, of the inten-
tion of his Royal Highness was to be found.
Mr. PERCEVAL apprehended, that the statement of the Minster's of
his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, that such was his intention, was
sufficient.
Mr. TIERN nt was of opihion the consent should come from the Prim.. •
of Wales, and nut from the Prince Regent. .
Mr. Ea E atenant LE «- as of opinion. that till they saw the Declaration of
his Royal Highness, the }louse could not proceed a single step.
Mr. I' VAC ZVAL his Highness combined both characters in
himself, and he untpleationably had his Royal Hlghtiass's authorny tu
declare the prey •lit consent on his behalf.
' Mr. Geo. Jon t: TONE (after the question that the Speaker leave the
Chair had been pan) rose and said, that he felt it to be his duty to °pp sit
this Bill on Constitotiooal priecieles. thinking also that that oo
mittee proeosed by the Right Honourable Gentleman was highly C
expe-
dient.
Sir Tnoanas TIIRTON confessed, that be felt considerable difficulty in
objecting to a Bill which had for its object the maintenance of a King so
severely afflicted as the Monarch of Great Britoil), though be telt it hid
duty to expres his decided opinion apicat the p. of the Bill.
From particular t ircnrostances, he had not had it in his power to pay due
attention to the volteninxis documents laid upon the table, but teen
from the cursory manner in which they had fallen under his observation,
he thought he c.edil point ont items in them which would render the
addition of the 70,0:01. proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
wholly unnecessary.
The SPEAKER said, in point of form, the whole was now complete, and
the only entry neres ary to be made on the Journals was, that the mea-
sure was et:riented to on the part of his Roy; I Highness.
Mr. Be.aap objected to the sum et. 70,0001. remaining at the di4posal
of the Executive in addition to the present Civil List. tie wished to
know shy the whole Ino,oOol. which formed the Exchequer Income of
the Prince of Wales, was not transferred to the Civil 1 ast,instead of
the 50,0001. as apeciiied in the clau4e in question ? He put the queation
p in hopes of the promised explanation from his Honourable Friend (Mr.
Adam.)
Mr. ADAM said, a considerable deal of reference had been made to
some peculiarities in the situ- Lion of the Prince Regent, which sor e
Gentlemen called honourable obligations, and which others gave the la I
term, debts. It so happened that in 1803, there were &hits which courts
not be liquidated; and at this time, three times 600001. were given.tn
his Royal Highness by anticipation. There were a numbei of Manna-
tions of honour One by his Royal Highness. One or them being a dent
to the Elector of Hesse, or as it was the, called the Fort ion Loao.
Up
to the year 1810, his Royal Highness hart pain 12,C0u1. a year to the
Princess of Wales, and from that time he had increased it to 17,01)01.
So that the amount of his oh;igations at this moment eaceeded 50,0001
a year.
Mr. BRAND declared, tl a: if the matter bad been irtrodured in the