The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY _EVENING, .JULY 21 185

after which no drainage should go into the river Thames, manta to make arrangements with the Turkish Govern-
aud that time was five years'after next December. (Hear.) meat, to which we anticipate noobstacleatConstantinople,
The bill was then read a third time. - -to provide that arrangements shall be made which shall
-- M 1 H. BARING brought up a clause for the purpose secure that the money so raised by loan for military ser-
of
excluding the chairman of the Metropolitan Board from vice in Turkey shall be applied to that military service, so
a seat in the House of Commons. , that while engagements are entered into on the one hand '
Lord R. GROSVENOR objected to the exclusion of an to enable Turkey to raise money, that on the other hand
individual from the house, who might be able to throw the Governments of England and France shall have the
light upon difficult subjects, and hoped his hon. friend certainty that the money shall be applied to the objects for
would not persist in urging the adoption of the clause. which it was raised. Now, considering the great import-
Mr. WILLIAMS thought it would be of great impor. ance of the struggle in which we are engaged, and the ab-
tance to have the chairman of the board in the house, solute necessity of furnishing the Turkish Government in
Viscount EBRINGTON considered that the presence of same way or other with the means of playing her part in
the chairman in the house would lead to inconvenience by this great struggle, and considering also the results that
a great deal of time being taken up in asking him ques- must ensue if the Turkish army were to fall to piecesfor want
tions.
of the ordinary means of keeping it together in a state of
Mr. PERCY said that when they took into considers,- efficiency, I cannot persuade myself that the house will not
tion the various duties the chairman of the board would be disposed to concur with her Majesty in the engagement
have to perform, it must be apparent that he could not which this convention records, but will, by passing this
have time to attend to his duties as a member of that house. resolution in the first place, and then the bill that will be
Sir B. HALL sincerely hoped that the house would not founded upon it, afford her Majesty the means of making
agree to the proposition that had been made by his bon, good the engagement contingently contracted on the under-
friend.
standing that this house will assist her in making good t hat
Mr. HENLEY saw no reason for excluding the chair- sum. I believe that the feeling which is universal in this
man of the board when the Lord Mayor of London was house and in the country, that every effort should be made
allowed to have a seat in the house. for carrying on the war with the vigour that must lead to
Mr. BARING, seeing the feeling of the house was success, will induce honourable gentlemen to consider this
against him, begged to withdraw his clause, as one of the most indispensable measures for the attainment
On the motion of Sir B. HALL four new clauses were of that object, and that therefore I shall obtain the sane-
adopted and added to the bill in the following order ; the tion of the house to the resolution I have now, sir, placed
first was introdiced after clause 88, the second after clause in your hands.
128, the third after clause 230, and the fourth after clause Mr. RICARDO said that when he recollected we were
235. e • by this loan entering into the old system of subsidies which
A motion of Viscount Enneerarollfor the omission of now weighed so heavilyon the nation, and when he saw by a
clause 6 was opposed by Sir B. HALL, and negatived. return obtained by the late Mr. Hume that the amount of
Viscount EBRINGTON proposed an alteration in clause subsidies granted during the late war, in the twenty years
7, for the purpose of removing a ground of objection previous to 1816, was no less than 58 millions, he must vote
respecting which he had received communications from against the proposition of the noblegord, unless he was shown
several persons of property. It was proposed by the some immediate and imperative reason for having recourse
clause that the existing vestry, elected for a totally to this system. It was a singular instance of the proof of
different purpose, and under a perfectly different system the way in which this system worked that no less a sum than
of voting, should continue for two years practi- nine millions and a half of the subsidies granted during the
tally to have the management of the affairs of the late war were given to Russia. It was clear that if that
parishes in their bands. Some of the wealthiest districts subsidy had not been given her powers of aggression must
were at present totally unrepresented, and yet it was pro- now have been materially less. When we granted the
posed to put the repairs of hundreds of miles of streets, and Greek loan we took a different course. That loan of two
the drainage of whole districts, under the control of this millions and a half was given to the king we had appointed.
body. In conclusion he moved the omission of certain There were then three guaranteeing powers. Did we give
words from the clause, and the insertion of others to get a joint guarantee? No; each power guaranteed its
own
rid of the objectionable part of it. portion, and therefore on the failure of the Greek Govern-
Sir B. HALL said the effect of the noble lord's amend- ment to pay the interest, we had only to pay our own share
meat would be to require the four parishes of the metro- of the loss ; nor had we had any quarrels on that account
polis under the operation of Hobhouse's Act should go again with any other of the guaranteeing powers. But might that
to an election of vestrymen immediately after theepassing bp the case on the system of a joint guarantee? Suppose
of the act, though the vestrymen elected in May last were that a change should take place in the Government of
chosen under the understanding that they would have to France, and that the new Government should refuse to pay
carry into effect the provisions of a similar bill. He had their share of the interest of the loan, not only. might we
reason to believe, from the constant communication he had be obliged to pay the whole interest, but we might be in-
had with the inhabitants of these parishes that objections volved in endless quarrels and difficulties with France. He
to the clause were entertained only in individual cases, and did not wonder that France wished for a joint guarantee,
that they were framed in accordance with the sentiments because in that case it was clear that the English credit
generally prevailing.
.became that on which; the whole loan was granted. When
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the noble lord had taken up a mercantile man saw two names on the back of a bill of
ground on this bill totally at variance with the opinions exchange, he did not care for the second name if he sa er the
and feelings of his constituents. first was a good one. It was the highest credit that ruled
After some further conversation the amendment was the market. The great question, however, for them to con-
negatived. sider was whether this guarantee wax absolutely necessary.
A number of verbal amendments were made in different He believed the House of Commons was quite ready to
clauses, and the bill passed. grant the Chancellor of the Exchequer all the means neces-
TURKISH LOAN, sary for carrying on the war, but he thought they ought to
be
pause fore the y undertook to pay the expenses of another
The house then went into committee of the whole house; nation as well as ourselves. They aought to have the clearest
1 Mr. Fitzroy in the chair. proof of the necessity of the case. It was true that the noble
Viscount PALMERSTON rose to move the following re- lord assured the house that there was not the slightest risk
solution :—"That it is the opinion of this committee, that of our being called upon to pay a sixpence of this interest,
her Majesty be authorised to guarantee the payment
of the because the whole revenue of Turkey was pledged to us
interest on the loan of five millions sterling, to be contracted as a security. Well the noble lord gave precisely the same
for by his Imperial Majesty the Sultan, in pursuance of the assurance in 1832, when the Greek loan was in course of
Convention signed at London on the 27th day of June, 1855, negotiation. But did. Greece eow pay the interest of that
between her Majesty, his Majesty the Emperor of theFrencb, loan? It was clear that it Turkey could pay us the into-
and his Imperial Majesty the Sultan, and that provision be rest of the loan out of her resources there was no reason
made out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, why she should not pay the public their interest on the
or the growing produce thereof for the issue of such sums loan without guarantee, and why they should not trust her
of money from time to time as may be required to pay any on this security. Indeed Turkeyhad actually raised money
interest which may at any time be required to fulfil the at a high price. The last loan now stood at 9i in the mar.
guarantee of her Majesty in respect of such interest, con- ket, and he had been told by a gentleman that he had of-
formably to the tenour of her Majesty's engagement, as spe- fared to take the remaining 22 millions of the last loan at
cified in the said Convention, together with the attending 85, and that he knew a French banking-house who were
charges of management thereon." The noble viscount ready to advance it at 86. That showed that she could
1 said—The convention on which this resolution is founded raise money herself. He granted it would be at a high rate
was entered into by the two allied Governments with Tar- of interest. But he did not see why we should step forward
key in accordance with and in fulfilment of those common at the beginning of the struggle to assist Turkey iu her first
views which have actuated the two Governments and the difficulties. He believed we bad had, up to the present mo-
people of the two countries with respect to the war in meat, an outlayexceedingin extravagance the late war. The
which we are now engaged. That war was undertaken for House of Commons had absolutelyplacedno check on expen-
the defence, present and future, of Turkey, and it was the diture; medal who wished to secure the least prudence in the
opinion of all those who have concurred' in the justice and management of the finances had been accused of starving
policy of the war that it ought to be prosecuted with all the the war. Now, he certainly thought that these matters
vigour and energy which the resources of the several parties should be more closely looked to. Why, the other night
admit of being employed. No doubt great efforts have been the Minister of War told the House of Lords that be was
made, and will coutinue to be made, by the Governments about to double the pay of the army in the Crimea, and
of England and France, and for that purpose large armies that without the least communication with that house.
have been sent, and great fleets have been fitted out, Then, again, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the
and stationed in the two seas, the Euxine and the house in the most careless manner, and only in answer to
Baltic. But it is manifest that the exertions of a casual question, that he had exceeded the estimates for
the two countries could not be attended with those the year, and should present supplemental estimates. And
results which we are entitled to aim at, and which are with respect to this 1( an, the first they knew of it was that
essential to the accomplishment of the objects for which a communication had been laid before the French Charn-
the war is undertaken, unless the ' efforts of those bare stating that we were to guarantee half of this Turkish
two countries, comparatively distant as they are, can be subsidy. That was not the way in which they ought to be
efficiently seconded by the efforts of the country itself treatee. He should certainly divide the house against the
most nearly and deeply interested in the, contest. Every- resolution. (Hear.)
body is aware of what I may call the noble struggle which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
Turkey has made in this war, the great and successful the guarantee, and said that, though it was a joint one of
efforts of her army during the greater part of a twelve• the two Governments over the whole loan, yet France and
month in defending the northern frontier of her territory. England had entered into an agreement between them-
The success and magnitude of those efforts exceeded, I be- selves by which, in case .of their being called on, 'each
lieve, the expectation of almost all those persons who had would be responsible for her own share of the debt.
turned their attention before to the resources of Turkey, Mr. GLADSTONE said this measure opened a ques-
There were few persons who believed that there was tion which the people of England had ever regarded with
amongst the Turkish nation that feeling of enthusiastic mistrust, suspicion, and jealousy. He did not dispute the
devotion to the cause of their country which had been ex- principle that we might in case of necessity lend direct
hibited by the Turks in this war, or that there was in the pecuniary aid to our ally ; but then that necessity must
Turkish army that power of combination and resistance be clearly shown, and he did not think that had been done
which was manifested by the army under the command of in the present case, He did not see much
.difference be-
Omer Pasha on the Danube. There were few persons who tween a subsidy and a guarantee ;he objected to guaran-
-believed that the Turkish empire had financially or mate- tees as much as to subsidies, and if he objected to guaran-
rially those ample resources for war whibh had been re. tees in general, he objected moat strongly to the present
quired and furnished hithertoin;thecourse of the contest. It guarantee, which was joint and several between France and
had been foretold that her resources must inevitably prove England. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was a
deficient in the ability to sustain a protracted contest, and private arrangement between France and England, by
especially that 'her finances might fail to supply the de- which each took its own share of responsibility. But
mand of the troops upon them. They, however, have made- that did not appear on the face of the treaty, and he fore-
B haveut i btei
is
n no supplied
disparagement
thoe t
heT u
great exertions hitherto and to a great extent, the troops saw endless political difficulties in connection with
ordinaryrkishreevmenpuitees
toof
sTauyrtkhteay. it. Suppose the war were over, that the interest
was not paid by Turkey, that France was of opinion Tur-
her ordinaryresonrces are not equal to the great and impel.- key could pay and England was of opinion she could not,
tent struggle in which she is engaged, because that happens who was to settle the difference ? He showed the difference
in all countries engaged in war. It happens here, it happens between this guarantee and the direct and open loan made
in France, and, from the information we receive, we believe by this country to Sardinia, and while he admitted that
that in Russia the difference between the ordinary revenue the house had nothing to do with making treaties, they had
and the war expenditure is greater than even in England to do with ratifying them; and he fur one could not agree
and France. We have been informed, and I believe on good to ratify this loan, founded as it was on the principles of
authority, that whereas the ordinary revenue of Russia which Mr. Pitt and the men of his generation would have
amortuts to about 30,000,000/, sterling, that the expenses of been ashamed.
the war have certainly equalled, if they have not surpassed, Lord PALHERSSION said the only difference between
double that amount. The ordinary revenues of Turkey Mr. Gladstone and himself, so far as he could perceive, was
amount to about ten millions sterling. In the course of the whether there should be a guarantee or a loan, or
last year they were obliged to resort to a loan to increase even a subsidy. As to the political difficultiesdirect which the
' their available means. A loan was negotiated, nominally right hon. gentleman apprehended from our jointguarantee
intended to be five millions, but of which I believe be- with France, he stated that political difficulties had risen
tween two and three millions have been realised--a sum out of the separately guaranteed loan to Greece, 'for the
not sufficient for the wants of the Turkish Government. other guaranteeing parties had protested against England
And they have put it to the English and French Govern- taking steps to recover her share from Greece.
meats that unless additional means are found to defray the Mr. DISRAELI—Without doubt, sir, this is one of the
expenses of the current military and naval services of Tar- most important questions which has occupied the attention
key they would come to a stand, and that it would be im- of Parliament this session, and the circumstances of this
possible for Turkey out of her ordinary revenue to find the
loan are such that the public mind ought to be directed to
means to defray the necessary and indispensable expenses
it. lam not prepared to say that the lean which has been
of the war. The subject has been long and seriously con- already maduto Sardinia was impolitic, and the arrange-
sidered by the English and French Governments. We riients made with regard to it were perhaps as unobjection-
felt 'that, while making great exertions in favour of' able as arrangements of the kind could be; but I must say
Turkey, if we allowed the very body we wished to sup- that it was a subject which deserved greater consideration
port to fall to pieces for want of internal resources, we from the house than it received. We have now a much
should be defeating the object we- bad* in view, and ren- larger proposition, in a form very different, and in a shape
Bering fruitless all the great efforts we were making in which ought to make the committee pause before it agrees
their support ; that, unless the Turkish Government were to it. The noble lord at the head ofGovernmentat
en
but a oan,
army, it would be in vain for England and France to send Lord P ALMERSTON—A loan to b 3 raised by Turkey.
an army to defend their territory. Then came the Mr. DISRAELI—Yes., and the noble lord recommends
question. How was that additional supply to be given s it to the committee, on the ground that the immediate bur.
There were two different ways in which that assistance den cannot be felt by the country; but I can make no dif-
might be afforded. The two Governments might have had ference in a country like England etween national credit
recourse to that system which this country resorted to in and national capital. (Hear hear.)b If England guarantees
the last war, by furnishing a subsidy to the power whom a loan, I cannot admit that' we can consider it a liability
we intended to assist. That, of course, was not considered which we may not be called upon to discharge. (Hear.)
expedient either by the French Government or by the If the security offered by Turkey of the least English. There There are many objections to that course, both in tionable nature, I should say that wewere sh bj
ould regard our
regard to the party who is to furnish the subsidy and to liability in the same light; and if the security to be given
the real interests of the party to whom that subsidy V, as to by Turkey be really of the nature described by the noble
be granted. If you wish that a power should have real vita- lord, Ido not think she would be an unsuccessful applicant
lily, you must teach that power to rely as far as possible ilonatnhseomf
tahriksestowrth.erße nuattiloncsoanrfeesign tlhelohoakbiwt of
on its own resources, and if temporary assistance is to be
required it should be given as much as possible ou the some incredulity on the resources of Turkey, and upon her
means and responsibility of the party who is to receive that means of discharging this liability. The noble lord says
extraordinary aid. We therefore thought it expedient to that he has no daub' that Turkey will fulfil her engage-
give a subsidy to Turkey. We thought the best way in mont if the loan bo guaranteed by England and France.
which we could aid Turkey was to give her the assistance The noble lord touched upon the resources of Turkey with
of the credit of France and England byguaranteeing a loan, 'that rich colour which we see given in the announcements
the interest and sinking fund of which should be paid out of of joint-stock companies. (Laughter.) He spoke of her
the revenue of Turkey herself. Then came the question mines, and of her other resources, and he expressed
whether, taking the amount which the Turkish Govern- his opinion that there was no doubt whatever but that
meat thought it desirable to raise at five millions, the two Turkey would be able to pay the interest, arid also
Governments should each guarantee half that suns, or the instalments towards the sinking fund. But what,
, whether the two Governments should jointly guarantee let me ask, were the anticipations of the noble lord with
1 the whole amount, taking an engagement as between regard to the Greek loan in 1832 ? When he recommended
themselves practically to take their share half and half of a similar case to the consideration and the sanction of Par-
the liability, supposing that to arise. 'Undoubtedly the liament with reference to that loan in August, 1832, he
former method is that which the British Government first said that the three Powers had uaranteed a loan of
thought of, and perhaps it is that most in accordance with 60,000,000 of florins, and that for his own part he had no
the habits and views of this country, and more in confor- doubt that, when Greece was settled, it would make a
mity with the precedent of former cases of the same kind. spring in commerce and agriculture which would not only
But the French Government laid great stress on itspreference enable her to pay the interest on the loan, but to dispense
of the latter method—namely, that which has been adopted; with the necessity of raising the third portion, and perhaps
and we thought, under the circumstances of the case, and the 'secand. The noble lord has given to-night an equally
considering the right of France to have an opinion on the sanguine opinion with regard to the resources of Turkey;
matter, that as the arrangement would come to the Lame but I find, on looking at our finance accounts for the year
result in the one case as in the other, we were bound so ended the sth of January, 1855, the following entry :
far to defer to the wish of the French Government as 'to "To 'payment of interest and sinking fund, Greek
adopt the syatem of a joint guarantee. The qaestion is— What Loan, 47,6371. is, 4d."
is the probability that Turkey, out of her own 'resources, I fear that, in the samemanner, we must be prepared to see
will be able to pay in future the amount which will become in our-financial accounts of future years a portion of the
due as interest on the loan and on account of the sinking public treasure, raisedfrom the taxes of the people, charged
fund ? And I think there is every reasonable expectation to the liquidation of the interest and sinking fund of the
that Turkey will have ample means to make good that en-
Turkis loan. (Hear.) Ido not say that it is not to the
gagement, without throwing any real and practical burthen interest of England that this loan should be raised, but I
on the finances of her two allies. The resources of Turks
y contend that we should have a clear idea of the full extent
are infinitely greater than have been yet developed. She of the eneagements and liabilities we are about to incur.
has resources of commerce which are annually increasing, (Hear.) I therefore look upon this proposition of the noble
and under happier circumstances, no doubt, will be very lord to guarantee the principal and interest of the loan as
materially and extensively developed. The Turkish terri- an engagement which we must be prepared to fulfil.
tories contain mines of every kind—mines of metal and Lord PALMERSTON—We are not to guarantee the
coal that only require to be worked to produce ample re- priucipal. sources to the Government of that country, and it is to be Mr.DISRAELI— -Well, I look upon it as an engagement,
hoped that other improvements will take place that will as far as it goes, which we must not only be prepared to
tend to develope the 'natural resources of the country. Un- fulfil, but which' we will have to fulfil. I object to arrange-
fortunately it has been the in Turkey that, whenever ments of this kind as matters of policy. (Hear, hear.) I
its Government wished to make any material improvement say that you are bound to prove the necessity of the pod
in the internal arrangements calculated to give additional you recommend, and we have not before us any circutn-
strength to the institutions of the country, or add to its stance to show that it is necessary for us to enter into en-
resources financial or defentive, that the influence of ltus- gagements of this nature. The noble lord opposite says
Blau agency has interposed,*and, by means which were al- that Turkey has been called upon to make great exertions,
ways at her command, have either totally paralysed the in- but that she has not the means at this moment to enable
tended action, or so crippled it as to prevent its producing her to do so. But we have no infornaation before us to as-
the result which might otherwise have been expected. It sure us of that fact, and I think we are entitled to have
is to be hoped that these influences will hereafter have less some definite'details submitted to us before we enter upon
power than they have heretofore exeicised, and therefore the arrangement which the Government has invited us to
we hope that the engagements we ask the house to ratify make. (Hear.) "And I would ask, if we admit this system
will afford the Turkish Government the means of co-ope- of guaranteeing loans, where is the
line to be drawn ? for
rating with the allies and of carrying on effectually the on the noble lord's plea on behalf of Turkey Ido not see
contest in which we are engaged, arid that, on the other I why this'loan should not be for /0,000,000/. We have no
hand, there is no good reason to fear that in the end that data given to us as to the application of this money, or the
engagement will be productive of any financial burthen to 1 mode of its expenditure ; and I think the committee ought
this country. The-immediate security given is the avail- ,to ause and ider whet her they are not entering upon
able surplus of the tribute from Egypt. That, after provid- , a system whichcons may begin this session, but the result of
ing for the interest and the sinking fund on account of the which may be indefinite, and which rreay gradually increase
loan of last year, will amount to 65,0001. a-year, for the pay- the liabilities of this countryand aggrava tethe burdens which
mentof interest and the creation of a sinking fund for this we ourselves are obliged to bear. If it, is to the interest of
loan Beyond that you have assecuritythe entire revenue of England to maintain the power of Teurkey, it .will be well
the Turkish =Tire, and arrangements will be inadetosecure for.the committee to inouire whether it aeould not he wiser
certain parts of that revenue, and to provide the means, for us to incur this expenditure, under our own conrol
from time to time, of meeting the interest and the demands than commence a system which, whether it .
of the sinking fund. It is the interest of the two Govern- sidy, is an advance 41)f the public treasure,- .-u all
reasure,- - •,,a - ' inrbe loan or sub-
,

probability will not be repaid, and which will increase the
national liabilities of England. The noble lord has des-
cribed the system as one which is the most useful to Tur-
key, while it is the least burdensome to England ; but I
object to it because I think it is founded upon an erroneous
principle. I object to it because there is something so cap
tivating in the expreesion that the attention of the corn
mitten is directed from the real question at issue, namely—
whether n e should increase our liabilities in order to
assist Turkey. I deny that the system proposed is the
least burdensome to England: (Hear, hear.) It is no less
burdensome than any other means by which England can
raise money, and it is no more burdensome: It must not,
therefore, be said that the Government has got a mode of
benefitting Turkey which is less disadvantageous to
England, for she incurs precisely the same liability.
The committee has to consider that the only question
before it is, whether we are to advance capital for the
benefit of Turkey? The noble lord says that there is an
objection to the form of the guarantee. The proposition
before us is, that we should give a joint and several gnat an-
tee with France for the entire i terest upon 5,000,0001.
In this respect the convention differs from that made in
1832 for the Greek loan; but, if I mistake not, the first
proposition made for the Greek loan in that year was made
in the form now recommended by the noble lord. It was
wisely refused by the noble lord who was then Secretary
of State, and two years afterwards circumstances arose
which would have rendered a joint guarantee in the high-
est degree etnbarassing to this country. The noble lord
has very wisely decided that the guarantee should be a
joint one, and now he says the form of that guarantee is
, preferable to that of 1832. It certainly appears, at the first
blush, that a separate guarantee is the most simple and the
least liable to give rise to international difficulties, and yet
what occurred in the year 1836, when the noble lord was
obliged to come down to the house to ask for fresh powers
to enable England to fulfil her engagements? (Hear )
In 18 s 6 the noble lord the Prime Minister moved for leave
to bring in a bill to amend the 2d and 3d Wm. IV., which
was known as the Greek loan. The noble lord was obliged
on that occasion to come down and introduce a bill to en
able him to fulfil engagements which the country had en-
tered into in 1839, and yet it was not in reference to a
joint guarantee, but only to a separate guarantee. I find,
on 28th of July in the same year, the noble lord moved for
a committee on the Greek loan, and made a statement
showing the existence of a difference between France and
England on the one hand, and Russia on the other, with
respect to the advances. The committee will, therefore,
see that even on the Greek loan—even with only a Sepa-
rate guarantee—the noble lord was obliged to come down
and introducea new bill to enable him to fulfil engagements
subject to comparatively slight restrictions in comparison
with those he now proposes to encounter. What would
have been the situation of the noble lord, under these
circumstances, if he had been engaged with a joint
guarantee, supposing France and Russia had re-
fused to carry out their share of the guarantee.
and had not paid the interest on the loan ? Why, the noble
lord would have been obliged to pay the interest on the
whole loan. The noble lord must pardon me if I look upon
the proposition he kas now made, of England entering into
a joint guarantee, not only with suspicion, but with great
alarm. If we found a separate guarantee liable to such
misinterpretation, and tending to such .complications and
difficulties that we required all the ability and energy of
the noble lord to arrange them at that time, what may now
be the possible consequences of our entering at this mo-
ment into a joint guarantee with our idly ? tis because
I estimate that alliance as high as the noble lord or any
man in the country, that I am anxious to keep that connec-
tion as pure as possible of financial engagements. The noble
lord has himself acknowledged the possibility of a mis-
understanding with an ally under such circumstances ;
but why should ye go out of our way to enter into
engagements of this kind which were pregnant with
so much difficulty and danger, when we have before
us, if we are obliged to have recourse to this system of as-
sisting Turkey—a precedent which has proved efficient to
meet all those difficulties which are probably always insu-
perable from financial engagements. Irrespective of my
objection to the original scheme of coming forward to do
what is called assisting Turkey, by using the credit—that
is, the capital of England—in a manner which appears to
me most crude, without having before us any detailed es-
timate of the circumstances which justify in the opinion
of the Government, such an advance ; irrespective of that
objection, I must say I greatly object to the form the noble
lord has recommended us to adopt. The noble lord says
there will be an arrangement made by which we shall have
a control over the finances of Turkey, which may secure to
us the receipt of our interest, anti of that suns which ie
necessary from the public revenue to form a sinking fund
for this loan; and he also says that commissioners aro to
be appointed in the Turkish empire for this great object ;
but this appears to me to be an arrangement pregnant with
great difficulties and dangers.
Lord PALMERSTON— We are to be distributors of the
proceeds.
Mr. DISRA.ELI—If we are to be the distributors of the
proceeds of the loan, then I think the noble lord has en-
tered into an arrangement infinitely more to be deprecated.
If we are not only to supply the funds, but also to distri-
bute and divide them, when we call upon Turkey to pay
the interest and advances, we shall have a perpetual quar-
rel as to the mode in which the original loan has been ex-
pended. She will always say, We are paying interest on
money which wo have not received, or which has not been
expended for the public benefit. Let the noble lord only
look at the pleas preferred by the South American States as
reasons for not paying the public debts they had contracted
with respective Governments. They have always said,
" These loans have been negotiated in so expensive a manner
that we have not received more than a moiety of two-thirds
of the nominal capital for which we are debtors, and there-
fore we shall not pay any portion whatever." You will be in
the same position in Turkey if you adopt the arrangements
recommended by her Majesty's Ministers. lam altogether
opposed to these advances to States in the position in which
Turkey is placed, but if you are to make advances, let
them be advances paid bona fide into the hands of the
Turkish Government. (Hear.) I sincerely hope the com-
mittee will pause before it sanctions the resolution before
the house. This is the second advance which has been
asked for during the present session to assist a foreign
Power. It is an advance of the capital of England upon
an insufficient security. I see no reason why a sum larger
in amount may not bo recommended in a very short time
to be again advanced for the assistance of Turkey. (Hear.)
The description given by the noble lord of the destitution
of Turkey is so vague, but at the same time is so alarm-
ing, that, if you admit his present precedent, there is no
reason why it may not be a precedent for larger de-
mands to be again, and even perpotua:ly, if the war
lasts, recommended for the sanction of Parliament.
My advice is, that this is a step we should not autho-
rise. If the Government can come forward and show
that there are speci it objects in regard to which it may be
of importance to assist Turkey, it will be for the committee
to consider whether those objects cannot be better obtained
by more directly expending these sums of money under our
own control and by our own means. The Government,
however, favour us with no details; they have not stated
upon what grounds they founded their estimate; we do
not know whether five millions or ten millions will be suf-
ficient to attain the specific object in the mind of the
Minister. But, by agreeing to this quest:on, we shall be
establishing a precedent which will, in my mind, have a
most injurious effect up ,n the finances of this country.
All that I would do would be to entreat the corntnittse
to reconsider well the financial position of our own coun-
try itself. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has to-night
appeared to be surprised that a right honourable gentleman
on this side of the house should have complained that
we should only just now—almost at the end of the
session—have become aware of the intention of the
Government to appoint another committee of ways and
means, and this, too' after we had voted an amount of pub-
lic money this year larger than had been voted for the last
40 years. But Ido not think we ought to have owed it to
a chance inquiry of the hon. baronet the member for Ever-
sham (Sir H. Willoughby) to be told that we are, at the
end of July, to prepare to go into committee of ways and
means. I think it would have been as well if this notifica-
tion had been made in a more formal and ceremonious man-
ner. All I know is, that it was an inquiry made in so sow
a tone of voice, and answered in a tone of voice so little
mere elevated, that very few hon. gentleman in the house
were really aware of the important inquiry and reply we
were favoured with. This 1 a very important considera-
tion, for it is quite impossible to shut our eyes to the
serious state of our finances. Great as are the resources
of this country, we must not be afraid of calling it this
serious state of our finances. I have no doubt that, what-
ever sacrifices we are called upon to make the country
are prepered to make for the great object now at
stake. The country, however, ought to have precise
ideas of the objects for which the public money is to be
expended. But I want to know what precise conception
we have of how these public funds going to Turkey are to
be expended ? We have not that inforiaation from Mini-
sters, and we are, at the same time, sanctioning a system
which is vague in its character and indefinite in its amount,
and at a time when we have to consider the general finan-
cial position of the country, incurring a liability which
renders all estimates impossible, and all computation of
public expenditure of the most unsatisfactory and perplex-
ing character. Under these circumstances, I think it will
be well for the house not to sanction the resolution now
in the Lands of the chairman. Let her Majesty's Mini-
sters have an opportunity of reconsidering the whole of
the question—let them wait until they place before us
a clearer idea of our financial position than we at
present possess, and let the Ministry is the interval
devise some mode by which we may assist Turkey
in a manner, I think,
much more efficient and
effective than sending English capital to that country,
instead of employing English capital by English means and
machinery for the object we have all of us at heart, namely,
the vigorous prosecution of the war in which we are en-
gaged, and establishing Turkey, as I hope to see it esta-
blished, a real and effective barrier against the aggression
of Russia, (Hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS supported, though reluctantly,
the proposition of the Government,
Mr. LAING was unwilling to embarrass the Adminis-
tration,
but he was much opposed to the principles of a
guarantee.
Mr. COBDEN accepted the description of the noble lord
as a proof of what he bad all along said, that Turkey was
politically effete. She could not be trusted, it
seemed,
with spending her own money, and thereforethe
Go-
vernments of England and France were
going to spend
it for her. But he was anxious to know how that was
s
to be done. Were they to send agents to every regi-
ment, to see that the soldiers were properly
If they did not do that they did nothing, for it was well
known that the colonel at the head of every Turkish regi-
ment was the man who plundered the regiment. If money
' was to be lent to Turkey at all, any
way would be better
than this way. They had much better
t_ie proceedings make present of
it to Turkey altogether. He consi ,erect
of that night would be a great triumphai that Turkey was
to the Russian
party everywhere. It was now admit
not only a sick but a dying man, and the insult offered to
her by this measure was greater than any offered by Prince
Menschikoff. His opinion was,
if they wanted to support
Turkey, they ought at once to put an n
address themselves to the question of ed to the war, and
providing some effec-
tivo internal government for Turkey.
Mr, WILKINSON could not take upon himself the re-
sponsibility of refusing this vote.
Mr.' CA.RDWELL said the horse of Commons had
already, for the purposes of this war, sanctioned an
expenditure which, separated from the debt, tripled
the expenditure of 1851.
It was their duty, the .e-
-fore, to pause now, and ask whether this new expenditure
was calculated to attain the end in view. His objections
to this resolution were titre
to vote away the money of :—first, that they were about
this country without having
over it any adequate control ; his next objection was, that
it was a disguise and a deception ; his third objection was,
the political consequences the loan might entail on us. On
these grounds ho thought that every friend to a vigorous
prosecution of the war ought to vote against the resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER called the
attention of the committee to the consequences that would
follow from a rejection of
th-s vote. The guarantee had
already bests adopted by the French Legislature. If the
House of Commons refused it, her Majesty must commu-
nicate to her ally the Emperor of the French that she is
unable to fulfil her engagements, and that the consent of