The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-05 00:00:00

tifE `5 10i', kVENING, MAY 5, 1885,,

MPERIAL PARLIAMEN',I 20th of December it was known in the country that the
-1- 1 • negotiations had terminated. The Rai of Malmesbury re-
* turned to this country on the 29th of December ; but two
days before the E trl of Malmesbury returned—namely, on
HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) ' Monday, the 27th of December—the Minister came down
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wool- to the house with a message from the Crown, fr..na which
sack at five o'clock. - I will read a passage to the house.
1 The SPEAKER—Does the right hon. member mean to
Lord SHAFTESBURY presented several petitions. I conclude with a motion ?
BURIAL OF THE DEAD. Mr. DISRAELI—I will conclude with a motion if you
The Earl of SANDWICH begged to call the atten- find that lam not strictly within the l'
tion of the noble duke opposite to the question he put ' but I apprehend that you will find thatiTaite ett. a question
li
n;
1, cbuymt shtea nmeei
Ministers,
issitme
riles, similar to thethe
nprlesent shall, washav
e theto caosuk;
to him on a formes occasion with respect to the state of the limits of a question. I wish to state am
strictly
the burial grounds and vaults in the county of Hunt-snewnanddye
or
pt cht learcti
ingdon. course has not been followed on the present occasion. But
The Duke of ARGYLL said in reply that the Home
Secretary bad power, oa the receipt of the report of an if yon thinkcld that lam transgressing the rules of the house I
12 u e with emotion that will not be inconvenient
authorised inspector, to order burial grounds to be closed , will
to thcee sso riiisamvent, because it is a motion which they will
either wholly or in part, and also the power of ordering
themselvevse make in the course of the evening.
the re-opening of bnrial grounds either wholly or in part, (Cheers.) I havee teeominndgathehhouse that on the 20th of.
if he were satisfied that such re-opening would not be December it was known
mated. On the 29th 'Of Decetmtbeer noeugrotiatio h ternerei:
prejudicial to the public health. This was the course ;our-
plenipotentiarynegotiations
sued respecting the burial grounds and vaults in Hunting- turned to this country ; but two days before,l on the97th
don, to which the noble earl specially referred. Application of December, Mr. Secretary Dundas came down to the
having been made to the Home Secretary for the o pen- house with a message expressed in these words :
ing of the vaults in Huntingdon, not generally for the "It is with the utmost concern that his Majesty acquaints
interment of a certain body, he issued such order ace, ;rd. the House of Commons that his earnest endeavours to effect
ingly, and the interment took place. It was obvious I the restoration of peace have been unhappily frustrated, and
that between the time of his receiving this application that the negotiation in which he was happily engaged has
and the burial of the body, there was notice for the been abruptly broken off by the peremptory refusal of the
Home Secretary to ascertain whether the opening would French Government to treat, except upon a basis evidently
be prejudicial to the public health. inadmissible. His Majesty has directed the several memorials
and papers which have been exchanged in the course of the
The Earl of MALMESBURY expressed his satis rc- late discussion, and the account transmitted to his Majesty
tion at finding this question revived by the i ;tie of its final result, to be laid before the house."
earl which he believed to be one of considerable iini...-ort- Now, hon. gentlemen will find, on referring to the jour-
ance, and connected with which there were cirest - nab, that the State papers alluded to in the Royal mes-
stances which would warrant a special: ,inquiry into the sage were of a very voluminous description. They will
subject of the closing and re-opening of burial grounds. there find a schedule of the papers laid on the table, and
After a short discussion, 4 they will see that probably, not only in importance, but
The Bishop of LONDON said the notice in • also in number, they here not inferior to the
queetion • • papers' we
did not order the closing in now so anxiously expect. (Hear, hear.) But the house
uestio but gave ti,stic. e
that after a certain period the graven yards would. be will observe that two days had not—
closed. He quite agreed with the noble earl wit a. Mr. RICH ro-e to order. (Oh, oh !) He was most un-
spect to the importance of the sub'ect and he sh mid re- willing to interrupt the right hon. gentleman—(oh !)—be-
feel it his duty for the third time toj call their lords; ups' ' u thought it most desirable that a full statement
csahosuel d h
bee made upon this subject, bat at the same time he
attention to the
many grievous evils which had arisen thought the hon. gentleman was not strictly adhering to
by the precipitate closing of burial grounds. the rules of the house with regard to questions. (Oh, oh!)
Lord PORT
MAN thought that such an impor Sant The SPEAKER.—The right hon. gentlemean, having
question should not hang upon the report of an ofbicer stated that he will conclude with a motion, is perfectly in
whose tenure in office was liable to frequent changes.. order. (Loud cheers.)
The subject then dropped. Mr. DISRAELI.—I regret that a misconception on the
The Earl of DERBY presented a petition from Livia-
part of the hon. gentleman of the statement I was about to
Pool, complaining of the conduct of the war.
make—a statement which I think it is for the public interest
should be made, and which I have only been induced to
A discussion here arose with respect to instructr,ams
make for the sake of the public interest and for the honour
to be given to select committees of their lordships' ho ase. and advantage of the country—(cheers)— has subjected me
THIRD READINGS. to interruption. Sti'l, however, Ido not despair of being
The following bills were read a third time 7—'Zie able to brillg the point clearly before the house. I will
Ossett Gas, Staleybridge Gas, and the Chesterfield Writ er now attempt to regatiser the scattered threads of my state-
and Gas. ment. The house will observe that the moment it was

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. -

Lord REDESDALE moved—" That this house w ill
not read any bill a second time after Tuesday, the 24th
of July, except bills of aid or supply, or any bill in rel t-
tion to which the house shall have resolved, before tl .e
second reading is moved, that the circumstances whit :h
render legislation on the subject of the same expediec t,
are either of such recent occurrence or urgency as to
render the immediate consideration of the said bill 31 e-
cessary." _

Viscount CANNING concurred in the resolutiocn,
and it was agreed to.
LOAN BILL.

known that negotiations were broken off, before even the
plenipotentiary had returned, there came down a message
from the Crown to the House of Commons, and the Minis-
ter at the same time gave notice that on the following day
he would lay the whole of these papers on the table—a very
different position from that in which the house now rinds
itself placed. (Hear, hear.) But was this all ? On Mon-
day, December 27, the message of the Crown to the House
of Commons came down. On Tuesday, the 28th, in defer-
ence to the direction contained in the gracious message of
his Majesty, the Minister placed on the table of the house
the whole of the papers connected with the negotia-
tions. (Cheers.) But that was not all. Mr. Canning, the
Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, laid upon the
table of the house for the use of members a state paper of
the utmost importance, accompanied by what was called
" his Majesty's Royal declaration," in which his Mejesty
made the house acquainted with all the circumstances of
the negotiation and the causes which had led to its unsuc-
cessful termination. Now, the house will observe that in
1796, under circumstances similar to the present—so similar
that the power with which we were in treaty appears to
have conducted itself very much in the same spirit as that
described by the noble lord (Lord J. Russell; the other night
in the brief account he gave of his negotiations—the nego-
tiations terminated by a "peremptory refusal to treat, ex-
cept upon a basis evidently inadmissible." The house will
see that in that case, under circumstances apparently not
only similar, but I may say even identical with those which
have just occurred, we had in Parliament a message from
the Crown ; we had the whole of the papers connected with
the unsuccessful negotiations hid upon the table of the
House of Commons before even the negotiator had returned;
we had a royal declaration, containing the whole pith and
marrow of the negotiations, placed upon the table for the
advantage of members, and, more than that, we hat the
Minister, on the very day that he laid the papers on the
table, which was Tuesday, giving notice for the following
Tuesday of a motion to take them into consideration. Now,
sir, as I have more free warrant to speak than I expected,
I will ask the house to contrast the situation of Parliament
in 1796, under similar circumstances, with the condition
in which the House of Commons now finds itself in 1855.
(Hear.) How have we been treated ? Has them been the
same necessity on the part of her Majesty's Government to
impart to Parliament the necessary information at a mo-
ment so pregnant with the fate of the country? Has
there been, not only the same promptitude, bat the same
form and wise ceremony, in communicating tetween the
Crown and Parliament? (Hear, hear.) So far as the
proceedings of Parliament are concerned, I doubt whether
we have even any authentic evidence before is that any
negotiations have been in progress, and certainly we have
not at this moment the slightest information (f what the
.basis of those negotiations was, or what wers the grave
points in dispute. (Heat- and cheers.) I think_ the house
has a right to inquire why there is this singular difference
between the modes in which Parliament has been treated,
under circumstances of so much similarity and so much
importance, by the Government of that day and the Go-
vernment in the present instance. (Hear, hear.) Why
has not her Majesty been advised to communicate with her
Parliament when negotiations for peace with a gnat Power
have failed ? Why has there not been a Royal message ?
Why, in the present instance, have not the papers been
prepared during the interval of negotiation, as ;hey were
prepared during the Ministry of 1796—(hear, hear)—so
that, when the termination of the negotiatioat was an-
nounced Parliament, might have been immediately made
acquainted with all the circumstances of the case? Why,
in a matter which has so deeply agitated the country,
have we not had some means of forming an opinion
of the state of affairs? Why has there not been a Royal
message ? Why have not the papers been promply placed
uponthe table? Why has there not been a Royal delaration,
and why has the Minister not come for %ard, am with a
practice befitting a British Parliament laid papertupon the
table of the house and fixed a day when Parlianent can
take them into consideration ? (Cheers.) I had thoight that
I might have asked these questions without tnspassing
upon a privilege which I, wished other members to enjoy,
of moving that the house at its rising adjourn til Monday
next ; but I will now make that motion, in oiler to be
strictly within the rules of the house, and, having made
that motion, I await with interest the answer of;he noble
lord to the questions I have addressed to him. ((beers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I think the answer whah I shall
have to give will have been anticipated by almort all who
heard the questions of the right hon. gentlenan who
are at all acquainted with the circumstances to which he
had adverted, and the circumstances connected with the
negotiations recently conducted by my noble freid. The
right hon. gentleman has referred to a case in which, in a
war between England and France, negotiatiots were en-
tered into directly between two countries—a case in which
it was perfectly clear in the course of the negotiations, be-
fore they were concluded, that peace was hopeless, and,
peace being hopeless, it became the duty of tie Govern-
ment of the day to appeal to Parliament for mere vigorous
exertions for the continuance of the war. (Fear, hear.)
If my noble friend had gone to St. Petersburg vithout any
previous negotiation with any other Power, ini if the
result of a fortnight's or a month's negotiation at St. Pe-
tersburg had proved similar to that to which the right hon.
gentleman refers, the cases would certainly have been
much more parallel than they are in poir tof act. It is
well known that the negotiation which my able friend
undertook was conducted through the intervention of the
friendly Government of Austria. It is well known that
from the commencement of the war—and I may say even
before the commencement of the war—Austria, a. maintain-
ing friendly relations towards all parties, has been inces-
sant in her endeavours to bring about a reconciliation of
the differences existing between England and France on
the one hand and Russia on the other, and it was only a
continuance of those efforts which led to the corferences
in which my noble friend took part. Although, lowever,
these conferences did not terminate in a successfil issue,
they were not broken off. They were adjourned without
any specific time being appointed for their reneval ; but
after my noble friend left Vienna, and after the corferences
had been adjourned sine die, there took place at the re-
quest of Austria another conference, and the probcols of
that conference [The noble lord was here interrupted
by an observation from Lord J. Russell, which was inau-
dible in the gallery.] At the request of the Russian Mi-
nister, who said that he had another proposal to make, the
conference was re-assembled, and—without being per-
fectly certain on the subject—l believe that up to this
moment the detailed protocols or records of that
conference have not been received by her lajesty's
Government ; at all events, if they have been re-
ceived, it is within the present day. Well, sir, the confer-
ence adjourned, and my noble friend returned to this coun-
try ; but there still exist at Vienna the elements 6f a con-
ference—representatives of England, of France, of Russia,
and of Austria. The course the right hon. gentleman sue-
geets might certainly be a very proper course to adopt, if
it was the determination of her Majesty's Governnent to
shut the door against every possible means of setting those
differences which have led to the war. (Hear.) If her
Majesty's Government had fully determined that, miler no
circumstances, would they listen to any further crertures
that may be made, either by Russia, through Autria, or
by Austria with the view of suggesting means of accom-
modation between the belligerent powers; then undoubt-
edly the course the right hon. gentleman recournends
her Majesty's Government to pursue, of coining down
with a message to Parliament, stating that all possi-
bility of an accommodation was at an end, and declaring
that peace was, under the circumstances, impassible,
would be the proper course to adopt. But, sir, that is
not the position in which we are placed. (Hew, bear,
and cheers from the Ministerial side.) We have filed in
the attempt we made, but I am not prepared to sty that
there are no other means open by which, through the in-
tervention of the friendly offices of Austria. propisitions
may be made which it may become the duty of ltr Ma-
jesty's Government seriously to consider, with the 'iew of
determining whether it is still possible to bring the exist-
ing differences to a close. (Hear.) Allow me to sty, sir,
that, even upon the showing of the right hon. gentleman,
the present case and that to which he refers are not parallel
cases. The right hon. gentleman says that in the mse of
France the-basis of negotiation was peremptorily refuse I by
France; but in this instance the basis of negotiation has been
accepted by Russia. The four points upon which England
and France agreed to negotiate have been accepted by Rus-
sia, and to a certain extent even the interpretation which
whieh thq fai
England and Pranced placed upon those four points has
also been accepted by Russia as a foundation upor which
o negotiate. The difficulties have been as to the ;node in
essentialfel t?
out in cleta'l r meaning
sir, whatevi e
an
with reer meaning of these points was to be c ,rried
d articles of agreement. I think, theref pro,
may be the opinion of the right hon. gentle-
arethe analogy of the two cases, that they
and I consideY,
teereut in their fundamental elements ;
have been properlayt .I.,:r)"lajesty's Government would ih-,t
which would have—rner cases, they had taken steps
the fanciful anales-T„;Trosing their duty if, following. out
proclaim (I .
lost all hopes of theps„„ibii!t to the world that we had
I should be equally
out false hopes which nil
st„,toveeurnent would en-
neglenj'Y of any accommodation. Sir.
I were to hold
resinsed ; but, at the
same time, I should feel tghlintflgtitleY: 1 t
1,;. that all hopes of ac-
inn laeave the question
tircly violate their duty if they
corninoclation were at an end. I wis
from the
the state in which It is. (Hear, a
Opposition.) I wish to leave the door of nneotation open.

On the motion of Lord STANLEY of ALDERLET
the Loan 16,000,0001. bill was read a third time.
In reply to Lord MONTEAGLE,
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said it was feAt,
in deciding upon this loan, that it would not be pro t-
able to raise so large a sum as the 16,000,0001. by t 3re
minable annuities. But between terminable annuities
and the establishment of a sinking fund there was i 7 i
effect little or no difference. In the case of the ?inkjet} ;
fund, the present generation would be called upon t..
pay a larger sum each year in order to reduce the pri n -
cipal of the debt, and terminable annuities required tile,
action of the same principle. In order to give effect
far as possible to the principle of terminable aneuitie
it was decided, after mature and careful deliberation on
the part of her Majesty's Government, that a poriion ai
the loan should be raised by terminable annuities, ai td
that the remainder should be reduced by annual pa_r•
ments of 1,000,0110/., commencing with the close of at.)
present war. There could be no doubt whatever but
that at the close of the war this sum of 1,000,0001
could be very easily raised, and if any season of r(-vers€
should occur it 'would be perfectly competent for Podia -
meet to repeal this clause.
The house shortly afterwards adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-YESTERDAY.

The SPZAICER took the chair at four o'clock.

The following bills were read a third time and passed
—Ashton-under-Lyne Gas and Water ; Kilmarnc el(
Gas ; Regent's Canal (Hertford Union Canal); Salisbury
and Yeovil Railway.
The following bills were considered and ordered to b e
read a third time :—Kelso Bridge ; South Wales Rz►il-
way (Consolidation) ; Waterford and Limerick Railway
The following bills were read a second time :—Tierb3 -
shire, Staffordshire, and Worcestershire Railway (No. 2) ;
Grand Surrey Canal (No. 2) ; Southampton Pm 14g
Trust, Saint Pancras.

(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) I would not shut the
door to any possible negotiation by such measures as
those into which the right hon. gentleman would wish to
drive her Majesty's "Government. (Hear.) We sai.i, sir,
that we would produce the protocols. Those protocols shall
be produced, and when they are produced it will be for
the house to determine whether they think it advisable to
take any steps founded thereupon. We are anxious to give
to this house and to the country all the information we
think consistent with the public interests and consistent
with the possibility of any future amicable arrangement of
those differences which have compelled us to embark in a
great and arduous contest. While, on the one hand, we
are determined to continue that contest, so long as it shall
be inevitably necessary, in a manner consistent with the
honour, the dignity, and the interests of the country, so,
on the other hand, we shall not be the parties to shut the
door to the possibility of concluding an honourable and sa-
tisfactory peace. (Hear, and cheers.)

knew what the consequences would be. He had opposed the
war. Ho thought it might have been avoided, but as it had
commenced it should be conducted with vigour and effect.
The honour and character of the country were sacrificed by
the mode in which,it was conducted. England should de-
pend on its own resources. They heard every day of new
French battalions being sent out, but they never heard of
any fresh English battalion ; and why, because they bad
no more men, from the mismanagement of their resources.
He had fait it his duty to bring this matter under the
notice of the house, because he believed the indignation of
the country would not be much longer restrained. He
begged to ask what measures, if any, were in contempla-
tion on the part of the Government to restore the efficiency
of the militia force ?

LORD DUNDONALD'S INVENTION.
Mr. FRENCH said he rose to put a question to the First
Lord of the Treasury, of which he had given notice some
days ago. He might remind the house that, after an ex-
penditure of some 30,000,0001. upon the conduct of the
war, the result, if not humiliating to this country, had at
least been most unsatisfactory. He believed the number of
available British bayonets in the Crimea did not exceed
by more than 1,000 what it was when the battle of Inker-
man was fought ; that the army was still unable to take
the field for want of the means of transport ; that a large
portion of the cavalry was still dismounted ' • that a con-
siderable body of the Artillery was without horses ; and
that, according to the statement of the First Lord of the
Admiralty the other night, the only possible road by which
our army could take the field—namely, that by Macken-
zie's Farm—had been occupied by a force of between
50,000 and 60,000 Russian troops. The public out of
doors would hold that house responsible iE they allowed
a Government to remain is power which, failing to
conclude an honourable peace, neglected any means
that might be placed at its disposal calculated to
bring the war to a speedy and successful termi-
nation. The plan to which his qestion referred
was one that had been long prepared and well matured by
one who had had great experience in naval warfare and in
attacks upon fortified places. Lord Dundonald had dis-
tinguished himself by hie exploits in the Basque Roads and
the Bay of Callao, and on other occasions, and he (Mr.
French) would venture to Say that in respect of scientific
acquirements, professional knowledge, and personal gal-
lantry, the noble lord had not a superior, if, indeed, he
had an equal, among living men. One of Lord Dun-
donald's most uncompromising political opponents, Sir A.
Alison, speaking of him under his earlier title as Lord
Cochrane, said that he was, after the death of Nelson, the
greatest naval commander of that age of glory—equal to
his great predecessor in personal gallantry, enfhusiestic
ardour, and devotion to his country, and perhaps his
superior in original genius, in mental power, and inex-
haustible resources. He (Mr. French) had said that
the plan of the noble lord had been long considered
and well matured. So far back as the reign of George
IV., at the request of that Sovereign, Lord Dun-
donald's plen was submitted to Admirals Lord Exmouth
and Keith,and such was their opinion of the terrific efficiency
of the noble earl's invention, that they expressed their opi-
nion that, for the welfare of the human race, it was advis-
able that the noble lord should carry his secret to the grave.
The noble lord at that time acquiesced in this view ; but last
year seeing the predicament in which his country wasplaced,
and being anxious to promote the cause of civilisation
against barbarism, he tendered his plan and his personal
services to the late Government without fee or reward. He
at the same time offered his services to go to the Baltic and
destroy Crenstadt. To these tenders he got no answer, but
a reference was made to three admirals and two scientific
persons. These admirals were of opinion that at present it
was not expedient to carry the plan into effect ; but he
believed the scientific men gave it as their opinion that the
force employed by the noble and gallant lord would be per-
fectly irresistible. On the return of Sir C. Napier from the
Baltic the plans were shown to him, and, after giving them
the fullest consideration, he came to the conclusion, as he
was informed, that the noble lord was able to carry out
every theig ho undertook to accomplish. (Hear.) It was
in these circumstances that he now wished to put a question
to the Government. The Government might, on the ground
of the high reputation of the noble lord (Dundonald) have
sat ely availed themselves of the plans which he had sub-
mitted to them ; but they had forced him to divulge those
plans to seven or eight persons, and it might possibly be
that the first experiment they heard of them would be in
the destruction of our own forces. (Hear.) If the noble
lord would state that the Government were determine I not
to give a trial to the plans of the noble and gallant admiral,
it would be easy for him to appeal to the country, and to
obtain a surn of money sufficient to enable him to carryout
those plans in defiance of the apathy and indifference of
the Government. (Hear, hear.) The question he had to
put was, what steps had been taken, and what decision, if
any, had been come to in relation to the proposal made by
the Earl of Dundonald for the destruction of the Russian
fortresses?
Lord PALMERSTON—Having already made a speech
upon the motion before us, it is only by the indulgence of
the house that I can be permitted to give an answer to the
question put by my hon. friend. I trust, however, that
the house will not refuse to grant me that indulgence. No
man can entertain a higher opinion than I do of Lord
Dundonald. I have the pleasure and honour of his ac-
quaintance for a great number of years. He stands as
high as any man ever did stand in his profession with re-
gard to naval affairs ; he is a man, moreover, of great and
extensive scientific attainments, and therefore any opinion
deliberately entertained by him is entitled to the highest
and fullest consideration of the Government. The plan
which Lord Dundonald proposed last year was, as my
hon. friend states, necessarily submitted to the considera-
tion of a certain number of professional and scientific per-
sons ; and the effect of their inquiries and consideration
was that there appeared to be such difficulties of execution
and such doubtful expectations as to the result that
nothing was then done upon it. The p'an has recently
been again pressed on the consideration of the Government
by Lon! Dundonald. The matter is still under their consi-
deration, and is far from being so free from doubts and
difficulties as my hon. friend seems to imagine. But all I
can say is, that it is under consideration ; and I think that
if there is a plan from Lord Dundonald or any other persoli
which is calculated to accomplish the ends and objects
stated by my hon. friend, there can be no great advantage
in publicly discussing it, or pointing out to the enemy
against whom it would be employed either the probability
of its immediate execution, or anything which might enable
them to guess the manner in which it might be applied.
COLONEL CROMBIE.
Mr. H. BARING asked the Under-Secretary for War
whether it was the fact that Colonel Crombie, late of the
Coldstream Guards, was placed on the half-pay list in con-
sequence of ill-health, and at his own express desire? He
was induced to ask this question in consequence of a
statement made the other night by the hon. member for
Aylesbury, that Col. Crombie was compelled to tender his
resignation, and was not aware that he had been put on the
half-pay list till he saw his name in the Gazette.
Mr. PEEL understood this question to have been put in
consequence of a statement made by the hon. member for
Aylesbury, to the effect that Colonel Crombie had been
obliged to go upon half-pay in order that promotion might
be given to certain officers below him. He need not say
that that statement was entirely inaccurate, nor could he
add anything to what was stated the other evening by his
hon. and gallant relative the member for Huntin,,eiton. It
appeased that Colonel Crombie having suffered from bad
health while at Varna, and being incapacitated from ser-
vice in the Crimea, wished to retire on half-pay ; and, so
far from getting the first notice of his being put on half-
pay from the Gazette, he had been expecting it ever since
the month of January last. (Hear.)
THE MILITIA,
Mr. H. BAILLIE, in rising to call the attention of the
house to the state of the militia force in the United King-
dom, regretted that he was forced to bring so important
a subject before the house in such a manner. The house
was aware that in consequence of a doubt existing as to
whether a certain portion of the militia force was under the
act liable to be called on for service for a longer period than
56 days, Government decided to allow those in that posi-
tion to return home. A large number availed themselves
of the opportunity, and the result was, the militia force
was in a complete state of disorganisation, and very much
reduced in numbers. That condition was in a great mea-
sure to be attributed to the conduct of the Government in
not availing themselves of the powers entrusted to them by
act of Parliament. When the hon. member for Midhurst
introduced the bill, he stated there were two modes of
raising a militia ; one, voluntary enlistment; the other the
ballot. The voluntary system was, no doubt, sufficient to
secure the efficiency of the force in time of peace, when it
was a matter of indifference whether the force numbered
50, 60, or 70 thousand men. In time of war, it was of
the greatest possible importance that the militia should
be maintained at its full complement, because on its effi-
ciency depended their means of keeping up the numbers
of the army. 16 was obvious to every one that a system
of voluntary enlistment for the militia must enter into
direct competition with the enlistment for the army—the
two could not be successfully berried on together. As soon
as the war broke out, Government ought to have taken
immediate steps for carrying out the ballot. It was said
6 months would be required to prepare the machinery;
but although 6 months had elapsed, nothing had been
done. The result was that the militia force was so re-
duced that at present be believed it did not muster 30,000
men. The deficiency in the army was still greater. He
had heard on good authority that the army was now
41,00 men below the complement voted by Parliament;
and although the Government asserted that recruiting
was going on most favourably, he believed that the
weekly returns did not show a number more than
sufficient to supply the casualties that were daily occur-
ring. The casualties of the army in time of peace were
24,000 men a year, and they must now be at least
35,000. When the noble lord was selected to form a go-
vernment, it was considered that the selection was based
on the prevalent opinion that he was a man who would
carry on the war with energy and vigour; but he (Mr.
Baillie) was at a loss to see in what that. energy and vi-
gour consisted. He thought even the Government of Lord
Aberdeen had displayed more vigour. They had sum-
moned Parliament at a most unusual period, in order to
take measures for raising a foreign legion ; and although
the act was passed five months ago, it was only within
the last ten days that any steps had been taken by the
noble lord to carry it into execution. The noble lord had,
indeed, told them that the language used in that house had
prevented the Germans from enlisting, but they might
hive got men elsewhere. He knew for a fact, that a distin-
guished Swiss officer had come to this country to offer the
services of a body of Swiss troops ; but he was kept for
weeks waiting for an answer from the Government. If no
Germans were to be had, how did it happen that the noble
lord had within the last ten days signed a capitulation of
agreement with a Brunswick general, who was to raise a
body of troops of which he was to have the command? What
was the condition of the administrative departments at the
present moment ; what was the state of the War Depart-
ment ? He believed it had been in a more efficient state in
the time of the Duke of Newcastle. The noble lord the mem-
ber for the city of London had shown himself very vigilant
in looking after the Duke of Newcastle. (Hear.) lie hoped
he would be equally vigilant in looking after Lord Pan-
mum (Hear.) They had lately had a sample of the way in
which affairs were conducted at the War-office. A state-
ment bed appeared to the effect that a large body of the
Guards had been sent to Portsmouth in a great hurry to
ve mo bs al
rk, bututl hl aotf Nhn
other
ve
dt he
tele 2 there,o ntt
s.T hthey found
i detachments
the
o ots
were put on shore, and then the Guards were embarked,
but without their baggage, leaving behind their clothes,
and even their shoes, and having the old muskets
ofs to
stt re do
other e rMhi er.i es
The mT ihni s testatementsaid
kwnaes wand ov et
br tien(gl
couldt e fart ,butv e ho
occurred. i d n o
Gt thinkr ea t
for Lord Panniure, as his health would not allow him to
ltopwoasns ?ole oughtthat stuocbhe tihnittn(gi
es
devote all his time to the duties of his office ; but while
the department was in such a state, the noble lord the
member for London ought to take it under his protection.
The militia ought at once to be brought up to its full com-
plement. It would, no doubt, be inconvenient to have re-
course to the ballot, but when the country went to war it

Mr. F. PEEL believed he was irregular in. again address-
ing the house, but the hon. member had been more irregu-
lar in the number of topics he had introduced. He had
fallen into several errors. It was not true that no English
soldiers bad been sent out within the last two months ;
upwards of 10,000 men had gone from this country. The
hon. gentleman had referred to the embarkation of the
troops on board the Alma. The fact had been repeatedly
explained. The difficulty simply arose in this manner :
the officers at Liverpool reported the vessel to be capable of
carrying a certain number of troops; when the vessel ar-
rived at Portsmouth the officials there considered she
could not take so large a number. Under these circum-
stances, a number of detachments of other regiments were
landed, and the Guards placed on board. It would of
course have been in the power of the Government to have
carried out their original intention, but the result might
have been great sickness and mortality amongst the troops
in consequence of overcrowding. As to the foreign legion,
it was not true that several officers had teen refused com-
missions to raise men under the act. Two or three officers
had lately proceeded to Germany to enlist men, and in a
very short time depots would be established at Heligoland
and in this country. The hon. gentleman had referred to
the state of the militia. It was the intention of the Go-
vernment to take every means in their power to place that
force in an effective state, for the progress of the war had
brought out their dependence 'on it." When the army was
sent abroad the number of regiments of infantry of the line
usually kept in this country was so much reduced that it
became necessary to embody a number of militia regiments
, and place several of them in garrison to perform the duties
hitherto discharged by the infantry of the line. Lately,
in consequence of the necessity of reinforcing the army in
the Crimea, the garrisons in the Mediterranean had been
reduced below their usual strength. In consequence of that
reduction au appeal had been made under the act of Parlia-
ment to the militia regiments in this country to volunteer
for service abroad; several regiments had volunteered, and
two or three had already left this country to reinforce the
garrisons at Gibraltar and Corfu. It. was no doubt true, as
had been stated by the hon. gentleman, that a considerable
inroad had been made upon the effectiveness of the militia
force of this country, in consequence of the discussions
which had recently taken place with respect to the act of
1854; but he did not conceive that the Government was at
all responsible for what had happened under that act, nor
did he think it was open to them to take any other course
than that which they had pursued. As regarded that ques-
tion the casewas simply this. The men who weve embodied
prior to the passing of the act of 1854 offered their services
under the impression, he might even say on the understand-
ieg, that they would only be liable to be called out for train-
ing for a period of from 21 to 56 days in the year, and would
be liable to be called out for permanent duty only iu the
event of this country being threatened with an invasion.
Now, he had no doubt that, considering how important an
event that was, many persons joined the militia prior to
the passing of the act of 1854, under the persuasion that
they would not lose their civil employments by entering
that force. The act of 1854 altered the conditions of service.
That act authorised the embodying of the militia at any
time when thiscountry wasat war, and thecountry happened
to be at war at the time when it passed. Then the question
arose whether that act ha 1 a retrospective effect. The law
officers of the crown were consulted on the subject, and they
gave a decided opinion that the act did apply to the men
who were enrolled prior to its being passed, in fact, that
its operation was retrospective. If, therefore, the militia
had refused to servefor more than 56days, the government
would have been prepared with an answer. He thought,
however, the house must bo of opinion that nothing was
more likely to conduce to the effectiveness of the militia
than the maintenance of confidence between that force and
the government of the country, and that this would not have
been secured by arbitrarily taking advantage of the act
which had been passed in opposition to the understanding
with which the men joined. Under these circumstances a
circular was issued, giving to the men the op•ion of re-
turning home after they had served days, or else of being
reattested for the unexpired period of service, receiving an
additional bounty of one pound, in consideration of the
enlarged liability which they contracted under the act of
1851. No doubt the militia very largely availed themselves
of that circular. A great number of the men returned to
their homes, and the militia regiments—although none of
them were actually broken up—bad suffered considerable
diminution. The hon. gentleman proposed to resort t the
ballot as a means of supplying the loss which had been
thus occasioned. The fact,was that the ballot would not
answer the purpose. Themenwho weregone to their homes
remained upon the effective strength of their regiments,
and when the period came round next year for their 56
days' service they would be called upon to join their regi-
ments. Consequently the ballot could not be had recourse
to for the purpose of supplying the places of these men,
unless they ware discharged altogether ; and their could be
no doubt that, if this step were taken, the first duty of the
Government, considering the inconvenience of having re-
course to the ballot, would be to ascertain whether their
places could not be supplied by the same process by which
they originally joined, namely, voluntary enlistment. If
the Government failed in that attempt they might then have
recourse to the ballot. He admitted that even including the
menwhohad gone backto their homes, the effective strength
of the militia regiments was considerably belowtheestablimh-
ment. The act of Parliament authorised the levy of 80,000
men for England and Wales. At no time, he thought, bad
there been more than from 45.000 to 50,000 men actually
enrolled, and that number had lately suffered a considerable
diminution, owing to the circumstance that so great a num-
ber of men had returned to their homes. The present
strength of the militia regiments in this country did not ex-
ceed 25,000 men. There was one very important considera-
tion in the case. Great complaints had been made in con-
sequence of militiamen having been placed on billets. The
practice gave great dissatisfaction to the householders upon
whom the men were billeted; and it was equally objec-
tionable on account of its demoralising effect on the men
themselves. At that moment, of the 25,000 men whom he
had mentioned as being under arms in England and Wales,
there were not more than 6,000 in garrison ; the remaining
19,000 being on billets. Every endeavour was being made
by the government to obtain barracks and hired accommo-
dation for the militia, both in this country and in Scot-
land; and he thought it would be unwise to have recourse
to the ballot for the purpose of obtaining a larger number
of men than could, for some time at least, be provided
with barrack accommodation.

Colonel KNOX thought that no answer had been given
to the question of his hon. friend. (Hear.) What his
hon. friend wanted to know, and what the country wanted
to know, was what steps the Government were taking in
order to put the militia regiments on a proper footing.
Colonels of miltia were constantly'writing to the War-office
for assistance, and could get no answer. If the War-office
were unable to attend to the details connected with the
militia, it was, he thought, incumbent on the noble lord at
the head of the Government at once to obtain a general
staff for that force, which should receive all reports and
administer the affairs of the militia under the authority of
the Home-office. At present the militia was at a dead
lock, whereas it certainly might be made a most efficient
force. A noble lord, who was the colonel of the Donegal
Militia, had stated that ho had 1,100 men, who were sleep-
ing four or five in a bed, and were living like pigs.'
(Laughter.) He had applied to the War-office for aid, and
had obtained no reply. The militia force was like the
regular army, paralysed, and he wanted to know what the
Government were doing to place it quickly on an efficient
footing. The hon. gentleman (Mr. F. Peel) said that 10,000
men had left this country in the last two months. He
should be glad to have a return with regard to those men,
as the numbers appeared to him rather exaggerated.

Mr. BENTINCK said there was one statement of the
Under-Secretary at War, which appeared to him especially
to require explanation ; he referred to his declaration that
he hoped that in a short time depots would be formed for
the troops to be obtained under the Foreign Enlistment
Bill. A speciA session was held at the close of last year
for the express purpose of passing that measure, and they
had not yet heard of any progress being made in carrying
it out. They were now told by the hon. gentleman, at
the expiration of a period of five months, that he hoped to
be able at some future time to state to the house that
depots were being established for the troops enlisted
under that act. If that was a sample of the activity and
energy of the Government in the prosecution of- the war,
it was not very likely to be brought to a speedy or satis-
factory termination. (Hear, hear.) He thought he had
a right to ask the Government to state what had led to
such an apparently unaccountable delay ?
Colonel GILPIN said, in consequence of what had
fallen from the hon. and gallant member (Colonel Knox),
he rose to state, that having, as a colonel of militia, had
frequent communications with the War-office, he had
always met with the greatest courtesy and attention.
(Hear, hear.) As an independent member, and a general
opponent of the Government, he felt bound to make this
acknowledgment. (Hear.) He hoped that if the troops
were to remain at Aldershott during the next winter,
accommodationboentltyerofeetby would be provided for the officers,
the size of the huts which they occupied at present being
10.
Col. NORTH said that, as a colonel of militia, he had re-
ceived the greatest possible assistance from the War-office.
Mr. BELLEW said, having the honour to hold a com-
mission in an English militia regiment, be wished to know
when the militia were to go to Aldershott, as he expe-
rienced great evils through the billeting system. He would
also inquire whether the Government intended that all
the militia regiments of Ireland should be station-A at
the Curragh of Kildare. The Government should hear in
mind the antagonism between certain classes of Irishmen.
The Irishmen of the south and west could not possibly be
prevented from quarrelling with the Irishmen of the north
of Ireland. (Laughter.)
Mr. COWAN trusted that before long the billetting
system would be abolished in Scotland. He had submitted
to Lord Panmure a letter from a billet master of Edin-
burgh, who acted under the authority of the commission-
ers of polite, containing some valuable suggestions on the
subject, which Mr. Rau say, his lordship's private secre-
tary, had informed him were likely to be adopted

Sir J. WALSH complained that no answer had been
given to the question of the hon. member for Inverness,
whether the Government contemplated any measures, and
if so what measures, to restore the militia to a state ofefficiency.relntary at War,thecles
desponding
it wasdiugand gloomy statement of the
Under confessed that the effec-
tive force of the militia was reduced to 25,000 men, while
there had been no contradiction of his hon. friend's (Mr.
Baillie) statement, that the regular army was 40,000 under
the numbers voted by Parliament. If the present conflict
was to go oni and England was to maintain her position as
a first-rate power, much more energetic measures must bo
adopted than any which had been seen hitherto. All the
exertions marlb up to this time were puny and insignificant
compared with the nature of the contest in which they
were engaged, or the efforts put forth at previous periods.
Mr. OTWAY said if the country was unable to keep up
a sufficient military force,- the sooner it retired from the
contest in which it was engaged the better. (Hear.) He
had put a question on ,the paper that morning to be ad-
dressed to the First Lord of the Treasury ; and be should
now refer to thesubject incidentally, because he understood
that the noble lord was precluded by the forms of the
house from, giving a reply. He wished to know whether
the Government considered that it became the dignity of this
country to enter into a sort of surreptitious war. Had the
agents of this country in Germany the sanction of the sove-
reigns of Germany for seeking to enrol their subjects ? He
asked this question because it appeared that this country,
bad already been subjected to some humiliation by pro-
ceedings of that kind. At New York the authorities had
interposed to prevent the enrolment of men by an agent of
this country; and in that friendly power, Prtuisia, a decree

' had been issued for the same purpose. He wished to know
whether, while we were sending agents to German states
to enrol soldiers, we were so doing with the cognisance of
the sovereigns of these states.
The Marquis of GRANBY said that it seemed to him
most important that every facility should be given to men
to be re-attested in the militia. He had heard, however,
that after 26 days no militiaman was allowed to be re-
attested, and he should be glad to know whether that was
the case.

Mr. H. HERBERT felt certain that it would be very
impolitic to join in one Irish corps militiamen of different
religions and feelings. He felt certain that great discords
would arise in those regiments in which men from the north
and from the soutb were both to be found. As an instance,
he might mention that being in an hotel one day in the
south of Ireland he had mentioned the matter quite by
hazard, and he was instantly met by such an outburst of
feeling that, had he been so inclined, a very pretty quarrel
might have been the result. (Hear and laughter.)
Sir G. GREY rose to answer the questions which had
been addressed to the Government by different hon. mem-
bers in the course of the present discussion. An hon.
member opposite had complained that his hon. friend (Mr.
F. Peel) had not given the information which had been re-
quired of him with regard to the militia, and that especi-
ally he had not stated the intentions of the Government
with regard to the ballot. Now he (Sir G. Grey) had un-
derstood his hon. friend distinctly to state that her Ma-
jesty's Government did not consider that the time had yet
come when recourse to that system would be found ab-
solutely necessary. (Hear.) In confirmation of that state-
ment, he could now state that from official documents it
appeared that a considerable increase in voluntary enlist-
ment in the militia had taken place within the last month.
Another hon. gentleman had stated that in his opinion a
separate staff ought to be organised for the militia. But
that hon. gentleman should bear in mind that the militia,
when embodied, became a portion of the military force of
the nation, and as such subject to the same departments
as the other portions of the army. With regard to the
question of billeting, he admitted, that many evils at-
tached to that system, and before the militia was embodied
(and hence was still under the control of the Home-office),
he had received many valuable communications from colo-
nels of regiments upon the subject. He quite concurred in
the justice of the complaint then made to him, and had
accordingly taken the opportunity of placing the matter
before the War Department. He could assure the house
not only that the matter had not been lost sight of, but
there was every wish on the part of the Government to pro-
vide the required barrack accommodation. While upon
this subject, he might mention to the house that from a
return which his hon. friend (Mr. F. Peel) had procured
since he addressed the house, it appeared that the number
of militia under arms in the United Kingdom was 42,351.
With regard to the permission to re-attest, to which refer-
ence had been made by the noble lord opposite (the Mar-
quis of Granby) the case stood thus. One month's leave
of absence was now giien to militiamen, within which
period they must make up their minds as to re-attesting
or not. This give them an opportunity of visiting their
friends and of giving ample consideration to the matter,
while it prevented men from coming in after a long lapse
of time and claiming the bounty. Another hon. gentleman
(Mr. Otwayi,has asked a question with regard to the fo-
reign enrolv4t. That hon. member appeared to think
that the Gcv4rnment were proceeding to do too much ;
while, on tlie-Other hand, an hon. member opposite (Mr.
Baillie) censured them for doing too little. The fact was
that difficulty had arisen in working the Foreign. Enlist-
ment Act by reason of the debates which had taken place
in that house and elsewhere before that act passed. Many
persons who had promised assistance to the Government,
and who had even offered to raise men, had held back
when they were treated and • spoken of as mercenaries
Nor could it be overlooked that the denial of half-pay to
officers had operated as a great discouragement. At the
same time, he, was now happy to say that the Government
Thad received renewed offers of assistance, and that agents
had been appointed, natives of foreign countries, for the
purpose of enrolling men. Of course, in taking these steps,
the laws of continental countries would not be broken
through. He believed he had now replied to all the ques-
tions which had been put by hon. members.
Mr. WALPOLE asked if the right hon. gentleman could
state the number of militiamen actually enrolled ?
Sir G. GREY could not at that moment give the re-
quired information.
Sir J. PAKINGTON had heard a report that 25,000
men were expected to arrive from Germany quite unex-
pectedly. (Roars of laughter.) He wished to know whe-
ther this was so?
Sir G. GREY had not heard of any such expected arrival.
Mr. ADDERLEY wished to call the attention .of the
house to a proposition for availing ourselves of the services
of convicts in the Crimea. There were at the present mo-
ment 10,000 convicts in the Government prisons, and this
amount was being recruited at the rate of 400 a-year. A
great number of these convicts—as many he believel as
2,000 annually—were being turned adrift upon society
under letters of licence. The proposition which he now
made had been brought under the attention of the Duke of
Newcastle when he held office, but nothing had been done
upon it, There was little doubt but that great evils arose
from the present system of tickets of leave, and had not
the excitement of the war turned public attention from
it, the house would have had the matter forced upon
its consideration. But, in truth, the war was the very
reason for considering the subject, for it afforded a means
of dealing with the matter which could not occur in a
time of peace. At the very time when these convicts,
able - bodied men, were turned adrift, without the
means of doing anything for their living, the house knew
that our army in the Crimea was suffering from want of
men for the performance of duties which were now un-
dertaken by soldiers, although not properly coming within
the scope of military matters. He would therefore
propose that such of our convicts as were physically. fit for
the duty should be sent out to the Crimea, to act strictly as
a labour corps only, They ought not to be used in any
military duty, and their pay should be upon the task-work
system. He believed that by this plan at least 1,500 men
could at once be sent out to the East. He had consulted
various persons upon this subject, who from their know-
ledge of these men and the duties of a camp were compe-
tent to give an opinion upon the matter, and on all sides
he had found the proposition received with a certain degree
of favour. He saw from a report of the proceedings in
another place that/ it was intended to send out a body of
2,000 navvies 'to the Easi. He thought that these men
would not be so likely to be serviceable as convicts, for
they would not be amenable to military discipline—cer-
tainly not to the extent to which convict labourers would
be. He did not seek to raise a discussion upon the question
at that time, but he should certainly take an opportunity
of bringing the matter under the consideration of the house.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL would not go into the proposition
of the hon. gentleman, which he thought was sufficiently
interesting to demand a substantive motion; he only wished
to refer to what had been said in the earlier part of the
evening with regard to the militia regiments in Ireland.
Hon. members had said that great danger would arise if
the inhabitants of the northern and southern parts were
brought together in one regiment. He denied that this
was so. He belonged to a militia regiment himself, in
which there were many gentlemen of religion and politics
differing very widely from his own, and he could say this,
that in that corps the only thought amongst its members
was the thought of doing their duty.
Colonel DUNNE entirely concurred with the statements
of the hon. member who had last spoken. Several subjects
had been referred to in the course of that debate, which
were exciting great interest throughout the country. First,
as to the militia—we were certainly getting recruits, but
they were mere boys ; and instead of going out to fight,
they wept only to Scutari, or the grave. Then as to the
foreign legion—he did not believe it would be ready in
time ; and as to the Turkish legion, be knew that the Os-
manli would not enlist under, or take drill from, the unbe-
lieving Giaour. Neither was the recruiting for the cavalry
going on favourably; and the reason, in his opinion, was,
that the pay offered was not enough to tempt the proper
class of men. Ho hoped that some member of the Gov ern-
ment would give some explanation- respecting the recent
case of the Candia, at Woolwich ; and also state whether
any tents had been this year sent out to the army in the
Crimea.

Sir G. GREY begged to observe, with reference to the
propose' to employ convicts in the siege works, that there
were two classes of convicts, those who having been sen-
tenced to three or four years' penal servitude had spent
their whole period in prison or on the public works, and
those who had letters of license corresponding to the ticket-
of-leave of the colonies. He thought it would be a very
hazardous pi oposition for the house to entertain, that a
convict having served lB.months in prison should, on the
strength of a good-convict certificate while there, be per-
mitted to enlist into the army, and form part of its regular
corps, but, with the men who having spent three or four
years on the public works, had obtained a letter of liy.;ense,
the case was different. That class of men were expected
to obtain an honest living in this country, and if it
could have been done secretly it might have been de-
sirable to employ them in the works connected with our
large military operations in the East. But the proposal
to enlist them into separate corps, to be officered by gen-
tlemen, had been considered by Lord Panmure, who
had come to the conclusion that it could not be
entertained. With respect to that very useful class of men
called " navvies " the best answer to the hon. member's
objection was the success which had already attended their
employment in the Crimea. (Hear, hear.) In the con-
struction of the Balaklava Railway they had given the
most efficient aid to the military operations, and he was
informed that any number of these men might be obtained
for work not purely of a military character.
The SPEAKER reminded the house that orders of the
day had precedence of notices of motion, whereas during
the last three hours they had been discussing a motion
which must be withdrawn, seeing that the house must
meet to-morrow (this day) to attend a commission to give
the Royal Assent to the Loan Bill.
After a few words from an hon. member whose name we
could not learn,
Mr. MONSELL explained that when the artillery horses
were about being shipped in the Candia at Woolwich, the
captain remonstrated against the number about to be
put on deck, and the artillery officers present immediately
transmitted the objection to the transport board. With re-
spect to the question about tents, his reply was 2,000
single tents had been sent out since the beginning of tin@
year, the commander-in-chief having objected to double
tents.

Motion withdrawn.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A message from the Lords brought down certain bills,
including the Loan Bill.