The Sun.
London, England, 1855-03-24 00:00:00

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did not mean to say that some qualifications had not been
introduced into the present bill, but be should deceive the
house if he did not state that the measure was substan-
tially the same as the former one. He did not think,
however, it was necessary for him to make any apology
for again laying on the table of the house a bill that had
been last year rejected. No doubt that rejection was a
matter of considerable disappointment, both to himself
and all the lovers of education in Scotland; but the dis-
appointment was qualified by the consideration that, at
all events, it had not arisen from any fault on the part of
the Scotch members. (Hear, hear.) The proposition for
its rejection was carried by the votes of English members,
and the Scotch members divided in the proportiton waso
hirty-six to fourteen in favour of the bill. I
made to a great extent a party question, and the ground
on which the rejection took place was this, %nation of thed this alone,
h
that, in proposing a measure for thc.•
n
people of Scotland, they did not con, euthe exclusive
superintendence of the Established Church is Scotland,
sad the exclusive privilege of members of that denomina-
tion to teach in the schools. He now brought forward the
measure with the expectation, which was not unreasonable,
that on this occasion he might perhaps be more successful.
Since the commencement of the session a bill for the edu-
Cation of the people of England had been introduced by a
right hon. baronet on the other side (Sir J. Pakington), for
which he was entitled to receive the thanks and gratitude
of every philanthropic man in the country, and the right
hon. Bart. had made it impossible for rimy man to stand up
anti maintain that the education of the people was a thing
dangerous to the institutions of the country, and that they
could not educate the people safely, except through the in-
tervention of an Established Church. (Hear.) He (the
Lord Advocate) proposed to do by the bill which he asked
leave to introduce, what he did not think the right lion.
baronet proposed to do by his measure. He (the Lord Ad-
vocate) proposed that an educational survey should be made
by inspectors who would be directed to survey the whole
state of Scotland as regards its education, and to report to
the house within a limited time. The surveyors would be
directed to state how many schools wero in existence, how
many schools were wanting; where they were wanting—
what fauailies sent their children to school, and what fami-
lies did not, so that they should have on the table a state-
ment which would enable them without the slightest diffi-
culty to put their fingers on the districts where the
greatest darkness and ignorance prevailed, and to apply
a remedy at once. If that were done at once, and kept
up from year to year, would they not make a -very great
stride in advance? They would thus be able to show the
country and Europe to what an extent they were fulfill-
ing the duty incumbent upon them of educating the people
of the country and bringing up the rising generation
in the way they ought to be reared. (Hear, hear.)
The next provision of the bill related to the details of
the educational system proposed by him to be established.
There was a difference between the positions of England
and Scotland with regard to education. In England there
was no educational system that was compulsory at all ; in
.Scotland they had ever since the Reformation a system of
education which was compulsory. The first question they
had to deal with was this—would honourable gentlemen
opposite this year, as they
did last year, refuse
unless
refuse to allow
this measure to pass even a secondreading on the
condition that the superintendence of the Established
Church should continue and remain over the parochial
schools in Scotland ? According to the system proposed
by the right honourable baronet it was not necessary to
have the schools under the superintendence of the Estab-
,
lished Church. The right honourable baronet proposed.
that the school was to be in connection with the denomi-
nation that formed the majority in the district; but if
that plan were adopted in Scotland, what did they think
would be the result ? In sixteen counties in Scotland the
plan proposed by the right hon. baronet would place the
whole education of those counties in the hands of the
Free Church, and there were only two counties in which
the Established Church was in an absolute majority. In
Scotland nine-tenths, or at all events seven-eights, of
the population were agreed in creed, and he asked the
right hon. gentleman whether, as he had proposed such a
scheme for England, it was possible to maintain that with
seven-eighths of the people of Scotland agreed in creed,
they could put the control of the national schools in the
hands of a body that formed a smaller proportion of the
population ? The right hon. baronet proposed no test, and
when in England they did not ask for the predominance of
the majority, why should they in consistency saddle them
in Scotland with the predominance of a minority. By this
bill he (the Lord Advocate) proposed to do away with the
superintendence of the Established Church, but still he
conceived it would be found that the heritors would have
a very considerable voice in the matter. Then he came
to the question of religious education, and he need
scarcely say that he had never been an advocate for secular
education, and the last thing he should wish to propose
would be the exclusion of religion from their schools. He
knew the peopl.e of Scotland to be a religious people, and
that the thing they had most deeply at heart was the reli-
gions education of the people. He agreed in the opinion
that secular education was a false theory, and was one that
could not be applied to Scotland, though, at the same time,
he must say that he should rather have secular education
than none. But it was needless to talk of that, because Scot-
land would not have secular education ' • it would only have
education with religious instruction at the same time. He
proposed to state in the preamble the attachment of the
people of Scotland to the use of the Holy Scriptures in the
schools, and then to have a provision that an hour should be
set apart for religious instruction in the schools. Ho con-
sidered that the clause which proposed to give power to the
Privy Council to contribute towards the maintenance of
rchools was very much misunderstood, but he proposed to
introduce a provision that after a particular day the grants
from the Privy Council should be altogether discountinued
with regard to schools belonging to the classes that ought to
join generally in education. As the Roman Catholic Schools
formed but a small proportion, he proposed to leave those
schools in their present position. He would be guilty of an
injustice if he did notsay that the schools of the Established
Church were in a state of great efficiency. The competition
which had occurred during the last 15 years had created a
great deal of energy in that quarter, but that did not con-
vince him that a body of clergy that Could only visit the
schools at intervals was an (Ancient body for the superin-
tendence of schools of this description. Then what were
they to do with the towns? It was proposed not to leave
it at the option of towns to have schools or not as they
thought proper, but to make it compulsory upon them to
have schools where schocls were required. Audio regard to
country districts where parochial schools were inefficient it
was proposed to make an assessment for the parpoee of sup-
plying such schools. It appeared that another bill had been
introduced by an hon. member, but how would that bill
work? It would certainly extend greatly the parochial
schools, but would leave the denominational schools just as
they were. It would continue an erroneous denomina-
tional system, whereby persons professing substantially the
same opinion, brought up their children with the belief
that those who went to school at one side of the street dif-
fered entirely from those who went to school at the other
side of it. He wanted to put that down. He wanted to
put down sectarianism. Men agreeing substantially in the
same doctrines had by unfortunate events been separated,
and it was desirable that the next generation should be
taught to abate the animosities that prevailed. It was by
no moans essential he thought to keep up these tests in the
towns, and as long as they required to have tests which
would prevent any persons but members of the Established
Church from being masters iu the schools, it was utterly
vain to pass a measure. They might perhaps sot an ex-
ample showing that, notwithstanding religious differences
might arise, still a system of education might be esta-
blished which should restore Scotland to her good name,
and perhaps be an advantage to the sister kingdom. He
concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill.
Lord DUNCAN seconded the motion.
Mr. STIRLING said the learned lord began his.specch
by alluding to the large number of Scotch members who
voted with him last year, and contrasting that large num-
ber with the small number who opposed him. He could
not deny that such was the case, but he wished to offer to
the house a short explanation why it was so. First of all
ho was sorry to say that the majority of the Scotch mem-
bers were generally in the habit of sitting on the Ministe-
rial side of the house, and nobody regretted that fact more
than he did. (A laugh.) The majority of the Scotch mem-
bers followed their natural bent and voted with the side of
the house on which they sat. But there was yet another
reason. The house could not be too soon informed that in
Scotland the parochial system did not extend to the towns,
and it was not surprising that members who represented
town constituencies should be glad to catch at any scheme
which gave their constituents a system of education. The
learned lord next went on to refer to the bill of the right
hon. baronet the member for Droitwich, and he asked how
those who supported that scheme could oppose the same
thing for Scotland. The answer to that would be found in
the great difference which existed between the educational
position of England and Scotland, still more in the marked
difference which there was in the position which the Church
of Scotland held with regard to education and that occupied
by the Church of England. The Church of England possessed
no educational eatablishment whatever ; it possessed no pa-
rochial apparatus such as that which was attached to the
Church of 'Scotland. From the beginning of its existence
the Church of Scotland had taken a lively interest in edu-
cation, and for two centuries and a half the Church of
Scotland had sedulously watched over the education
of the people; but education formed no part of the
ecclesiastical system of the Church of England. The
two Churches, therefore, presented such a marked con-
trast as to make what might be fair and right for Eng-
land quite the reverse for Scotland. The parochial schools
of Scotland were in a flourishing condition ; but the learned
. lord attributed that, not to the influence of the Church,
but to competition ; and yet, five minutes afterwards,
he appealed to them to support a bill to put down that
competition. On the point of difference of creed, the
learned lord admitted that the difference of creed between
the two churches was very slight. Well, now, if it had
been great, there might have been a case for the bill, but
the difference being slight, there was no necessity whatever
for it. Everybody knew that the parochial schools of Scot-
land were not sectarian schools, and children of all sects,
including Roman Catholics, frequented them, thereby
-proving that parents did not object to their system of re-
- IFlfoAts teaching. The learned lord, adverting to his (Mr
daltunio bill for improving the parochial schools, said it
townr.lpitfuar enough, because it di tondo so,
with the
object was to
it was' of intended so, as its simple
• -which airmulgend those defects iu the parochial system
lord asked them (114 and every one deplored. difference learned
(mislay aside their sectarian ,
and to meet up,3_,,pe
_mcoeramon ground. Well, let him try
this bilbleasseahluteze
of their
in the towns, and then there
would
upon common ground
but while he made that offule:etiltg
list he allowed. to add
that there was no avant of al
jo offer, he
ea 'le a the largo towns, such
as Edinburgh, Glasgow
Aberdeen...sucltioposrand sc 1 oeszths_should 1)1
difficulty, than was not the wan of
ac-
commodation, bat' some means by which
induced to send their children to schesol.l
to the learned lord to let them meet on thatesennLaPPealtal
-which he desiderated, and which he (Mrs`.
Stirlieg).hti7enad
lured to shadow forth. Let the learned lord remetab
the advice of Lord Brougham,that the subject t er
cation in Scotland divided itself ;l
into two heacts,
el
town and country, and it ought therefore to berlealt with
in two bills, not in one only.
Mr. BAXTER claimed the kind indulgence whicsai dah the
house always extended to a new member,
few words upon the subject, to which he had devotedao
good deal of attention. The learned lord requireri nu
apology apology for calling attention to the question, for if there
was a question more than another apart from the war, in
which the people of Scotland took a deep interest, and
which always engrossed their attention, it was this ques-
tion of education. They regarded it as of vital importance,
and he should he greatly disappointed indeed if the propo-
sition now submitted to their consideration was not hailed
with the utmost satisfaction. Notwithstanding what the
last speaker had said, the bill breathed an enlightened and
liberal spirit, while he must also add his opinion that it
had been framed by no unskilful hand. He did not wish to
say a single disrespectful word concerning the present paro-
chial schools ; they had done much to elevate and advance
his native laud, but since they had come into operation
Scotland had undergone an entire change. The decided
7.27„ 'moiety of the people of that country no longer attended
Established Church, and, that being tlie cams, it could