The Sun.
London, England, 1855-05-15 00:00:00

ti7have ~.---------_______
i„ ..,,, . .........
ti„.,,,,,,.. ~,,I,een
dav,toleultel by forethought, and that every- latter top;c, for the
.purpose of showing how far I differ !
flui,t, h:as not beef afraid,
my
ynable ahem to achieve decisive from an opinion which seems t extensively enter-
'lords it is a truism that every- , tamed throughout the country(.) be
fvetrhyat word " routine"
kliete,heas been eten done to enable them to achieve success. , is applied reproachfully to the performance of the duties of
'Po-t•isueell att he answer to these allegations ? Has any , the subordinate departmen.s ofhtvheer state--duties discharged
gentlemen who labour in
toyeee war 8 e4lPted to the criticismCof my noble friend I most usefully for the country
4iti ' that t'll Ys"
? 1118 any single Minister vouture(.l the public service with great assiduity
iatphduvoeloyeionfadtehrainte.
tie ttndertei.expMition to the Crimea'was not an expo- I remuneration. and at the same time
14° litiat perf'er in ignorance, without re .ration, and ; centives to publicity anie, plopulraorseftuowilpportthem-if the I
1 to the perform-
lt:wiedge of °f.the Year--(hear)-undei taken without ; word "routine" is p
ieetewleeee
04, the difficulties you were going to encounter, . ance of those duties,' IP
sa
of the routine of his wheel,
direction,the se d e
p sarntd.
ge,lt of pre ' the resources of our enemy, and the , for a manufacturer to complain
leftbraent would be jest as reasonable
ter G'lteepration you should make?
94th VILT S here
race tLe table b 4 addressed a few observations works precisely
ge galle ' because it always turns preciselyin the
in the same manner.
and without it
Ceee Earl of Z. at in so low a tone that they did not ments routine is the very' essence and soul, .
,Osafmaell
k. 4410 iot the resultof • •wisdom
The ea
was U the
proceeded-The expedition to the fusion in the space of an 11not, however, say
hour. Iwi
the machine of the state would be thrown into utter con-
getti 'nitre re. abilit ,or oyes g . , ,
they deede th keiewcastle) opposite a few days since ac- 'sometimes paid to the claims of mere seniority in the
f iht that under all circumstances, too much attention has not
been
„se b, ° idea
to ' °ad n uat at the time of the Crimean expedition public
.offices. I do not mean to say that promotion may
too little regard to
Siege ; they relief upon taking the I not occasionally hay. e been given with
I.4eb'tll;elateseilt iwereefisa
. eY surprise, but the idea of having to : the claims of superior merit • and I am not prepared to
Nievtel'el an 'er withouthuts and warm clothing before ; saY that the Gover mount won' 1.1 not do well to set aside,
rare etettsee I:. 34 idea that the noble duke admitted I but with adiberal prov•sion men who, although qualified
14e4'•ellt• Til 18
Mind or the mind of her Majesty's Go- I for the duties of publicprovision,
in ordinary times, are
Iteeg,teeere \vie, eani, a thing was said bY an eminent officer unfitted by age or infirmity to meet the requirements of a
‘e el- aloener e also thought thelace miht be taken in great
4eltec'el'ice' but(Hear, hoar.) It is essentially
emergency, and interfere with the advancement of
who, from thefirst day's firine, came younger and abler persons.
th '''' allci len that th
en, f also tit . e work would be one of great dif-
pnt
of ren,
Iv
‘aat it would be a work of time. Well, par men e . v r ell of them
y necessary that you shout( have " roetine" in the public de-
, 1 • but then you ought to have oe . .
ttilheetra?tptlleiteaenr; tlf foresight and miscalculation on the ruling minds. My noble friend lays down the doctrine
thefrtnght
°lent, and not from other circumstances, -and it is a doctrine which can liar lly be con tra•
for the public service that
ye, heirs
haye .efia eexposed to hardships against which dieted-that it is important
knelt logs jeer Protected. (Hear, hear.) Th h I public
twine th olust r eased by ignorance; and upon the Go-thefranklyconfess that I
apeointments should he made solely with a view to
eY
s'
public interest. But I must
.
titeee. at the t est the responsibility. To what was it thiekconsiderab le misconception prevails out of doors
'''it l'ell? eere°°Ps were worn out by suffering and over
taeeteitieee uY, because the amount of work was so doubt, in a despotic. country,
upon the question. of the selection of public officers. No
.a
despot or his minister, has
44' aceordr e°ald not be spared from the trenches; be- the power of selecting fora public department the men
(ft the, ttei wee would urgoyne, if
y
44 little la ngJohn B
he may think beat qualified for the performance of its du-
tiesnecessity
Or'hear ° Work • fth
advance to the possession 0 em, ties, without. any reference to the
'
iseteetice • Bat the the various members of his Govern-
country would
le 'era ep°f the f, noble earl says, " Yon take meet. But to apply that principle in this ,
with
impossible in itself, and would be at variance the
-Peilir'eeted 1 telegraph or the railway, or other be
ttlitet !ell." ir„."Y the aid' of science •
uee ' ill le intear b in the Crimean principles of our constitution ;and. the dinister of the day
eo,,f lee ,s exae,e_ ear.) Sir John Burgoyne
havewasvery from first
must choose his associates from within a narrow com-
pass. The whole of our constitutional system, to
thtud th"eln oet,7,tuation, if the railway would,.
014 of',,l,laye I,_ uer last. His answer was, Yes ;it last, hangs on mutual confidence. The Crown appoints a
confidence, and in whom it be-
„titter. ; eter been of infinite advantage, but was not
.Minister in whom it has con
er•-` to oqeletitia when the noble earl takes credit for Neves that the people have confidence ; that Minister must
4 ~..;',84 . ° ann modern • • h
t .lie - rail invention, h© sure y
at
•oe• waY a 1 ought be supported by a body of colleagues,e_ and those colleagues
must be members of one or other House of Parliament.
e, seet, , was a, ~mongst them, for the construction
rr tese to, end wh:e.o 'understood in October last as i 1 Thera are some officers who must be members of your
4.2'4 ole uncle ret •' it was not thought of till Apri, lam your lord,hips' house, and there are others who must e
'"lte• ale
and Ido not find there have been members of the House of
.Co.mmons ; but the choice of the
oar t toe, ,r, n 8 raised to
to torte, have faeti „ the substantive port ions of the Minister for associates is limited to the members of the two
that •it is • 't
o!tlisina no •0I the suffering and privation amongst houses. lt is even far more limited than, lime -
,71elp moat,„ t been denied and that they wereowing ed to thos.e.mem . .
e' ret 43414 4t* (Hear.) But' the noble lord opposite
to t 'rep re) exhim in political o.piniens, and
hers of the two houses who concur with
who are willing to co-operate
he k tee to b Pressed his surprise that censureshould with him in official life. Now, he cannot include among
downe ee Place, e cast for not employing the right men
h„ itee,. • I those men the
.membere even of his own party who are pre-
fer tet elan_ ti,t of Personal
the noble lord woul have come vented by their devotion to more
.profitable avocations
tiiltla il7, and o case--all fit men employed in from undertaking the engrossing duties of a Minister of the
44 4 Bihgle'' %ervi„ °l3' employed because of their fitness
ee? such t, at r,e. But he did not show your lordships
,a.' lo a &tiers wean Was engaged • an •i I can only sae, if Crown. And I must say, without meaning the slightest_ul
disrespect to the present constitution of the House of C
doubt that
without intending to raise the slightest
mons, or.
ii
tem Ilat 4tther. i
'''4 . 4. re they 71i71 their' business in anything
eQ`ecta, -"efl tn ~' n the department, the corn- on all sides of that house are to be found men perfectlyhew:a-
,'" ta,:deef e"' cal de t transportthere had been utter peble of discharging the dutie.s ofd nestietresfoorfmt Cr
I must say that sinee the p Bill there
-tleb 4+ttlei, tii,„ . Par tnents, .
tok,4h ext.. 'ed 3,,it 'and, what wasstall wo, se. everythingf merly was for a
has been an alteration in the character of its composition
which makes it more difficult than it or
°j ht re tat that it the rules and regulations of routine toits
llg to slip be n° roan could undertake to do that which Minister to select his colleagues from among members.
h,'''w he eatieae; the
the public service. I am not now
'iltOet te - "ue performance ' Mr. So-and-so, and ber of control of individuals, which
Previously to the Reform Bill therewere a very great nu.m-
boron ha under the
a), ee. ren e his rmance of
known, gas ' • rotten boroughs," and there can be no
hi_ 4 wo, pitch 1
._ duty ; but there is one depart-
e° kit 11 of the ill refer. In doing so Ido not mean to
tew seil:reiee,.' noble dwoeurebt but that those rotten boroughs, whatever may have
,-, duke (Newcastle) opposite, or of
P• ~ th eerd th On
the contrary ,I bel eve from all I been
htteir imperfections, or however irreconcileable thee
'es ere iat of ~ , , , may a. e been with the spirit of our constitution, afforded
tf rii 444 as non Lem members of the late Goverh- an ordinary avenue to Parliament for young men not
lle ' ofeewith such ° who devoted himself more enerete- known to the public, but who were desirous of' quaslifayizi!
tle.st th ° thart
~'.l unremitting application to the duties themselves by early training for official. life-notaattractive
re L'hes reeeeanie Zia:lathe! noble duke. (Cries of " Hear.") inunerative profession, hut as a profession highly
Iv, eV by throe . must be permitted to regret the
a rre 0 noble for persona possessed of independent fortune. But that
'tlio e, epaee.„ duke in accepting the conduct avenue to the House of Commons, that nursery of young
e4o4:rateelats Bo Tuni:ltatainelntdoi not concuirl with thtehenolabtlee statesmen, has been in a great degree
whodestroyedby
atrheetißeow-
fOrm Bill. Look at the character ofes the men
Ilyenof those who
ka4leneZe-(aallewll, or has daoneMsoevleirttleretowisnugpport the
so! more
Thos p
are men, no doubt,
keetleee e to ae07810)-that it was commendable in the
ate
returnedability, but they are men, in general, of matnre ageaet.
le •he 4,,e, of nee ran office which required a practical
tr 44,14 .1 4,41 affairs. (Hear.) And in spite of )
'lth 'lite' energY of They. are professional men, or merchants-men of gr h
Iteil, ' aqbolellt Milit the noble duke, Ido net believe great sense and capactty in many instances-but men who
did not devote their attention exclusively to public itcoaff
If th- effße. rtlinate avY knowledge to enable him to con-Libido'
it 'do true in officers of his department, and to keep and who had not from their youth been trained
01, I 8 athe discharge of their public duty. But nettle •..
tit
4tik 8 civil. b • ss And I must here observe that the instancesP are
t4O qofii you lan, was to undertake military con-
et Nee 9es tol Whether it was not necessary that the du- very few in which a man who entered Parliament for the
first at a mature age raised himself there to any very
h d position. I may be told that many of these
tit 'Llot ',l)stratiena„9"liatelY under him, and connected with
• 4rl, 'v'th •- °f wshould be filled bpersons eon-
tt eth Indite, ar, y dsmisatrlegrmbsoreoughsstillremain but I think it will be ad-
tie 'lee, 0 poete rY affairs? (Hear hear.) Now let us 111 i :tad that, among the voters.
trots via weetheul of the Ordnance-office. lam not now boroughs, there prevails of independence,
' even in those smaller
a certain degree
lli (41 r•mej faillt ror not the original constitution of the which, although it will not prevent them from supporting
the well ~.•3' fos Y• But it is the office on which the a mem'bei of the most influential family in their neighbour-
Itti;rwerkie supplies of war munitions, and upon hood, induces them to resist any attempt to impose upon
mere stranger. The result is, that the number of
'lterl eeiee"gepf which depends the whole question of h
1, the
i.9.etie. ablafaetori, _
, iv conducted or not. Well, the Pt
ttit-Ittor: °f the Ordnance (Lord Raglan) was
.away . remsona inelified by previous training for the duties of Go-
vsernmsent is smaller at present than it was before the paossse-
ee.tetee, , and it was found necessary to appoint a in; of the Reform Bill. I state this merely for the purpose
oecorrecting those exaggerated representations of the riot-
'4llll4s The pal of the Ordnance to perform part of the
character of an evil of which so many persons are now co _
ri ti; 111-, tnniTee of Surveyor-General is vacant, and, I
as . 'duty, " Pre
of Co Y. Then sent time there is no p
the plaining, and in some respects complaining very justly. I
therelileteloeopr,4l there is the Clerk of Ordnance, am s
erson perform-
till per ectly certain of this, that if there be in either
tin the House
il, 3 11 43, the eative of the departmi7.House of Parliament any man who shows ability and an
can explain and enforce his
heek lie, ma the
mouthpiece of the i,l aptitude for business-who
views-whatever may be his birth or his orizin, or
le ' hie that eee connected with military stores.' By
nnister who ex aptitude
. there is no Minister, whether Whig. Tory,
his
count. xlen"-will not accept his aid, and
lit gel a 0 tiere"tee been filled in former times ? Beemy
or Radical., who . speedily the Crown if he should
hey elsete. be General
command of the army (Lord Hai.-
* th"'n, by ,`,eneral Peel, General Cox, and other_
awhich devolves
mi- welcome him into the service of
think fit to undertake the thanklessduty )
11,4 oftptl, P t the
of whom was. Colonel Dunne. InY
lit s'erlt° s'u° commencement of the present war the on a servant of the Crown. (Hear,. hear.,
.But so strong
hary of th
tliPl tee elate a Ordnance was never held by any but is the feeling in the country against placing inexperienced
men in high officeethat when, a few years ago, I availed,
D. Yob oftre At the commencement of this great war,
1"t ' - Put • - shouldnecessarily be doubly active, whom myself
le la 4, lata
of the services of several gentlemen of great. ability,
previous official training, I was
re, ever r that responsible situation? Why, you
lspPelai.ew-° ills eeeeliectable gentleman-an Irishman,. I be- told I had only raised a " squad of raw recruits." I say i
1 Delot 'l' tint eeotly seen occasion to change his form
441 of. that no minister, be he who be may, can put his finger on
hart nistmerk „43 far as I know, when he had been what he may considerthe
tei-"etll• ti;e" wo Ne Ordnance, if he had been told to life, and another
most competent men for public !
say to one you must go here," and to
1it414 e't'ollu°;lB4,l` hame found it very difficult to go "you mast go. there ". H e must make his selections from 1
inl ai,.. It ti,"% ti,`''''.--.(he r 1 lachter)-and who cer-
th '-''
slipe aql -'''l' ooath and ilitar matters. his political adherents ~ he must make his selections from
Batt he
alitaq
riclia quke
the
about 11_1 those only among eyen his own adherents who are in
these po-
ll • 'te for Wary was not sition to take'offi.ce, and who
haye qualified for is-
;Xepot' fee: tile ere.(thaee :°';w, es iteMinister
lathre more necessary desirous its dutiee. I make to.statement because lam
eie
Th-;.-nt of
the
meta reeitar not a.
meat-'oist .-0 r,- lo the 3: assistan . t and adViser? And of correcting the exagelrsaste:leopinions which are
In of mister le the
unaue 'e htstory of this countr the entertained with regard to the exaggerated
of a minister, and •
e tee a Witr . e Ile, ° office the person to represent
y' the possibility of a minister's carrying nut his own wishes.
"till roes of -' is a use of Commons'the commence- 1 say
_it is .
• eel k Pea, civil. at the duty of a minister, with regard to
Yth• ''y a • !'. it haze dan filling a position which, even every
without
to
lite seal talltarald artment in Parliament or out of Parliament, to
r. .3' rn:„ always been- held essential ahead select,
partiality or fear or favour, the individual
tell°lEnee oftesnB" th --n• (tdear. Ido not wish to say
of eee 'Ate 'ender ; gentleman who' was removed from 8
whose services he can secure, and who, in his ju•lgnene, is
fitted for any particular off ce. That is the prinreiropclie..
eilteeetneroneB°'• depot ecretee_tisa Pwhich
le which 1 am afraid, without citing instances which is laid down by my noble friend ; and e
. in the Colonial Department he
eetaiegente 'illit 1 Yre°'• the War Minister in the House -followed either
'adeeh'eratie `'L ?le tr.,:sit say that I know nothing in the Pwould be invidious, has not been alwaysent
or by any Govern-
by her Majesty's present Government
'Nit could ability__Tel,-4 gentleman no doubt of very (Hear, and-laughter.) But
'tath 411
aff • rso(ler 1,- Kuoar nothing in his antecedents I
asked why we bring forward ths motion now; and it
h 0 'se 411.8 in - 'l4l Pee l• c' to explain :we are
anent that has preceded.them.
there was this
Oak G see the Hoe u lady qualified
lle glee veselltat' "Se of Commons, or to so a t s thewere all d ed
those privations en ur
h 1,4 hgeti , r.) T lve
of the War Minister in that great suffering-there
is said, "True, there was this great neglect-there
P 4 were '0 pw ' eelect the have been by our My noble
•NI e 00t Int 0,,, se cases because we. the present, Government."
le par' ',eta Out Put ei t",‘ any instances in which the rig friend
ht late, and not under
troops-but recollect all that took lace under the
tethlsri, of Pa i. ue right plces' I will not go to de-the present
re, -eeted eet and r iatnent-I will . fi m self to those time 'with the exception of my noble friend,firm
with the
the Minister of War undoubtedly stands clear ,
paAtt,e4 with th to the ease of coni ne y
en inireediately H ryand a laugh.) But the noble earl
tiirstee'l frisf,,the uteleGe°,vertlinent genltlemilshow that in old partners. (
~ea ,
Government may vet truly be styled a new
le glit°-` the --8" importance-ant
will
• all de- opposite says, you
eelite Plate. Prinetoe.you have. sign y within the last three months.'
'lite. with ''' 'thd that of selecting the right men
.for things have been done
much in consequence of the
do not consider what wonderful
Earl GRANVILLE -Very
,elee'ids yona view solely 3t You have not made your appoint-
leeii.itee shoeed and alone, as my noble friend measures_
it'd of War.
Ore 43' eo °f the nave done, to the exigencies and the ttle that among
which were taken by the noble duke the late
•L
The Earl of DERBY continued-Settle
eikee.eoh
.yee brpublic service. (Hear.) But it is said
le IN Yo tug theing forward this question now? You yourselves. (Laughter.)
Government;
taiile "at' en ' voice of l . ou are between •
the late and the present
matter he cannot
4,1, Wyk e e from a a pub lc meeting , y that view of the
.. ,
I draw no distinctione whatever
her Majesty's Ministers ought to
It'ere b I tali... Of st„. ,
apublic, meeting, and followingear noble earl concurs In
.I)9eieletibol, of a`,, "new ; ' and the noble for tho laches of the last three
toil, oe6. r ugh, e„., her combination of Lord Derby, be held responsible notoo
l avoid acknowledging that i
oke et eolee onetheete" 1 • Layer]." Now, lam
ht Government alone; thee present a
! bear and a laugh.)
tNiwithi him' . (He 5 'tr. LaYard may have thougimt:roet:
r dealin with the late
n are one and the same. There
months, but. for those of last two years. You rud
ce, ar, the late advisers of the Crown
N. 'Mese '8 c'f theMy acquamsacrifices made in the case
have, no doubt, been
rim. I belie eoes e e slightst possible character. Unen
tele ef 4
,ve , have never had an communication with of fact no radical change
e'l we. ',Mit, he has constituter] himself the represents- thrown. overboard ; but, in point of
.s e 101 l i g which .
individual Ministerase.mTeheerwe.have been some few Jonases
lilt ki ,la the .is very powerful in the country, .effected.n'what
( ear.) Well has
e ',tee oeen i_ , main ;
'3 a just feeling • but I think that nitration has been
in either the construction or the pelicy
0: 4,, te:iki,_°o_ into an intemperance' of language, andon which
takenir came down to this house upon the very y
te t, e'lei•eil ttplui. hasty and sweeping charges which he
1`44,1t beilole loodl bstantiate. I cannot, help considering, place within the I:st few days? The Minister at
which he
ait a°4 t 4 himself, with the • l 'Ye vehemence has moved this evening, and said, Why, eeyarnoble friend gave notice of thrs resolutions
I meant to pro-
ere, aee ,, hie
_ea ,wi impu. althe day
teter:lee. right,
lathe
racter, to the pursuit of that which. are to come on for &sens-
e et! she et ielluee has suffered himself to be led into. which these resolutions
pose a measure of greatadministrative reform on .
tie' ee, en guac'e d • •and intima- 8-1 •
i n I was going to give a notice to that effect this very
•utt, jth ,Were not. ,an into expressions . sm. upon
very unfortunate, no
ear efnie tioo. borne out by facts, and which could evening." (Laughter.)
ie do e ? for ee (Rear, hear.) With all my respect,which he was
te reed r• La, .. . ointed ; but, in the difficult positiotn inue
his
doubt, that the noble baronlt shwoausld.h.avebeen thus diaap-
te eh, ree _ yards abilities, Ido not hold myself, great mem-
att'''alit resolte'e noble friend, nor any of those who concur Pplaced, he thought it advisable to pas .po
te''' tat °f that "le, responsible for any act, or word, or au of my noble
it4ttle p est). ~, gentleman nor is there the slightest con- pronounced your decision upon the resoluticee
re of administrative reform until your. lordships had.
1. he ersnn. "Y noble friendand Mr. L ard or any of Alt eok, a 3vh, . aY . friend. But began
upon her Majesty's Ministers
Of Jslity,'l4 earl 'Re opinions Mr. La and represents. But as this. The pressure.
there is another House of Parliament as well
OePobe' qevere°PPosite and the other members of her so large a stock
leeltli ~,e feee Mont. were ta say that those demonstrations bead of the Government, not having quite
to grow a little inconvenient ; and the noble lord at the
fe'te''.lst hinng which We witness in every quarter, and ofpatience as the t measure
day to which the announcement of the
'Os 11' iTla 've reached the Ministers themselves, have the . greatherefore,
Minister of War, could not wait for
1 414 ohs biro on the words of myself or of my noble of the noble lord, his collehgu ,
tee 04 t eu ht f anticipates the statement
44
*la
tie
of administrative reform was postponed. He,. .e
t 44 car t° conf,,,, g forward these resolutions, lam not
Of Ihk Chbee„,- noblelords opposite reform. (Hear, hear.) I speak with all
administrative ''' - ''''B that
hit ltelth disregard of our views if they think that wewhich
Dell th,rgods..Reate, gard or with neglect on thein 'men
6f(a laugh)-but I must
neeeet 'allede ' 1 Public feeling, which has. led
- dcations respect of what has occurrediLanother place,
h, lot 15rivate eenaracter, engaged in the discharge of im- ushered in in a manner
eleo teaeY part ties,_ and who ordinarily shrink from of administrative reform were
be permitted to observe that I think these great measures
IJlliee abeeeo lti Public discussions-which has led thesehowever, to be a
Hear,and lac liter.) It turned out,. .
ti:„t4,l„l4to th:iter a time their usual avocations, and to (
which bears somewhat the appearance of a coup d'etat.
de terra-(renewed 13.0
eh: eoe,e2Ocere Tamil of a public contest. I cannot look coupelsewhere
the art of a certain political character
lAs "'ry at
any such feeling prevailing throughout terre on laughter)-rivalling those' coups de
ho 'orf • I can • I rd-P Ma 'est 's
b which her.l 3'
(hearhi or the nuot think that it is safe for your oOn Friday last, of course by mere
.
✓ash' hear
tl, _Rouse of Commons, or for an parties amused. a
(Laughter.)
house of Parha-
gears '5 kJoriser • . inthis country- accident, gentleman
got up in the other .
lie subjects were so recently'
eest„_
,i)e..eto
.„
are Conservative principle.
indifferent to, inert and professed
er‘ae fo'ree steeitone g_ard, or to appear to he
We at the head of her Majesty.
attachment
's Government and a prodigious
tieua fht,,4°rhe nB,Ol public feeline. (Hear, hear.) of his Administration; but
.he
devotion to the service
great to the noble viseo.unt
e s' IN evessin' ,and
perhaps we hbave forborne too long,
`c't• t 5 r• pre i our opinion with regard to the conduct of course of the
teeloll;eibarraus"° been led to do so by an earned desire stated
he bad been a little disappointed in the
tatee that "he could not, at the same time, help saying
Ohara
eo deri_ 3 her Uajesty'a Government and more es- Majestyps late
' * eetg the ent seemed to be little better than her
last three months by the circumstance that the resent Go-
progress of '.
• viscount
And after an exhortation to the noble
ftei eret,4 "rtutiatel been b thoseclose. Rather advisers."
negotiations which
e, re e_ rase the Government Y, Fought to a
sir
learli nsulerablevernm
tak‘Etti,e have e in such a critical state. of•
thqove let beiee, Perhaps, exposed ourselves to the len to do something to retrieve his character, he concluded
tbot in me° e apathetic and indifferent, and we seem " Arise, awake, or be for ever fallen,"
with this sublime adju, ation-
to the dang • conclusion
Dreaeagitati "lent there 14% let, _on ,),,,,. partyls no hopefor the:Mu, sand that by
( Great
He heard and was abashed 1 and up he sprung
leughter.) To proceed with the quotation-
I tele e,`,'ll the Ab of doors they must produce that iin-
ttletei trlveyee'Tovernment which would be more leti-found b whom they dread,
t "%se burolleh the two houses of the Legislature.
‘''l Vie 'Ph° h6ll
Upon the wing ; as when men, wont to watch,
t. on,. , tight r the same opinions with me, think of the moment,
4.10115 the , not by oe,, „el, t laughter)-and upon the spur
and
t i slay th Pe°Ple of ..• •eice el encoueage e g . ,th rowth -(renewe•l laug
Reuse and bestir themselves ere well awake"
o-
tee. t see - opinions so dangerous to the institu- wit ou House
of the house, touched by this
tt;"erit, ''43r That I• (Hear, hear.) But when I say that, ' tion for the adjournment
-(ereat
Id perhaps rather say " Reed" ,
I 'h - t notice to the of Commons, upon a m
ree , arml concur in all the views, in all the sea- ' magic wand-I shoe
ele •l a n all tit %tele.. t telt he expressions which have been put laughter)-the sleeping beautyrouses herself from the slum-
she been
leneis ttqt wh.talrailar character Heer, ant a laugh.) I buried, dreaming
i °ow e' ef a . great meeting in the Cit or at other hers in which for seven times seven years . had
herself all the time as to
arrangements should have
`ltrie (IPPevitet I have said to excite' the' laughter Of noble how it was poesibie that ancient
%emote eepr • I say thee Ido not concur inartillery from the Commander-
all the sen- continued to separate the
and puzzling
tiel'eet'i4:reelleleßZl ''.'' tho 4e meetin s. But I look upon in-Chief. (Renewed laughter.) For seven times seven
-eer-'setieteae-e as indications of agdeep-rooted feeling of years that has been the waking dream, the perpetual
eoreeliloleut it thehe head of' her Majesty's
mismahrtgement of her Majesty's puzzle of the noble viscount at v
or another, in the
1,441 t:„1.4.6,1 a. e,‘,`"le,ar, beer.) In metters of what may be i Government. But, some how
-4s
t' -'
the purely mercantile character mercantile men course of these seven times seven years it never oc-
deeae•lsfeetorii public busiiresa has been conducted most curred to him to reduce the phantom of his imagination
at tewith 4,, Y, and that much more might have been the in.
to a reality. (Laughter.) Animated, however,. by
‘lii'tt? '4lflelll9ell mnaller expenditure But I must say, spiration of his Parliamentary Mentor, it suddenly struck
qoe lifeeeioatthae, that I believe many persons, in their the noble viscount, that if they oughtn tto be separated,
teteepraeet, at the mismanagement of her Majesty's
eleeebeoriele . nave been led.l .'there was no reason why they should.henot now be coi•e-
to wrong and exagge- biped ; and, acting upon the idea,
IN% tile 14" ls with the causes of the evils 1 place,Ordnance° Depart-
he
tge h,,,,,, are eo
nox. respect toand. proposed to band over the
• the RYBt4l,, 'Loon the Sill Vs. to. re+nettet• .
not the
'
The' liner len- ; ment to the Minister of War, and to place artillery
the _
men but I under the control of the Corral-I:lender-in-Chief. (Hear,
till
o sprunc, up in his
4igliwklle that
i 3 te 1:11423'.et •lgt tagOl•n•l3sltersions attribute 1 a laugh.) With respect to the proposition itself, I shall
''thar,-""eaci;" evil to then aonopOly of ()veil' office of j merely observe that I consider it to be my duty to re
tto," tetv that emolument by the aristocracy ; while , until it is before us in detail before I make any remark
e
% 4t ti
Lt is adl owing to an adherence to routine, i with reference to it. Certain I am, however, that
etile
Until is is got rid of there ORM be no hope for I Minister of War can have no objection to the respite 11
' ‘191.3 I wieh to eat a few MI6 spoil the i. has 00403 with respect to the cievelophient of the plans

.

THE SUN-, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 15, 1855.

cient state. The noble earl is not quite correct, however,
in stating that the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was
left without the powers which the Master-General possessed.
I am certain that he was appointed under the impression
that he would have precisely the same powers which Lord
Raglan had, and, if any of his powers should prove defi-
cient, that they should be made up by the assistance which
the Government would render him. The noble earl also
commented upon the appointment of Mr. Monsell to the
office of Clerk to the Ordnance, and remarked upon the
circumstance of his change of religion, as if that had any-
thing whatever to do with his suitableness for the office.
I cannot see what it has to do with it, and, for myself, I
should just as much consider that it fitted a person for
the post as that it disqualified him. Now, with reference to
myself, I wish to say that neither in this house nor any-
where else will I accept any praise for'assiduity and labour.
Assiduity and labour are the duty of every man who under-
takes an office in the Government; and I do nothing but
my duty in bestowing every portion of my time to the exe-
cution of my duty; and if the noble earl can substantiate
that in the performance of those duties I stood in the way
of others wh could have executed there much better and
that, in fact, I was a badadministrator of the office which I
held, then I say that no labour or assiduity elhich I be-
stowed should be viewed as a makeweight for any defi-
ciency of which I might have been guilty. (Hear, hear )
The noble earl said that we ought never to have under-
taken the expedition to the Crimea, if, having undertaken
it, we had not taken precautions to render our proceedings
effective. That opinion of the impolicy of going to the
Crimea is one, however, which has arisen out of the cir-
cumstances of the case, and not from any feeling which
was formed at the time. I appeal to your lordships whe-
ther, when Parliament met in December, we heard any-
thing of the impolicy of t ha.taexpeilition to the Crimea?
(Hear, hear.) What was the attack which the noble earl
made upon us then ? It was that we had not from the
commencement of the war formed our plan, and that the
Crimea was an after thought, taken up at Varna when
the siege of Silistria was raised. That it was which formed
one of the principal points of his accusation against the
Government at that time; and it is only now, when it is
thought that the expedition may not be attended with
success, that the noble earl and others becomeso wise after
the fact. (Hear, hear.) It is not fair, then, for the noble
earl, after his organs of the press spoke of impeaching the
Government for not undertaking it before, to turn round
upon us now, and to state that the expedition was im-
politic because it had not been attended with success. If
the noble earl can substantiate that when the expedition
was undertaken there was no providence, no means for
accomplishing the object, in view, he would establish a
case against the Government. But is that so? The noble
earl said that in my evidence before the committee I stated
that we expected to take Sebastopol by a coup de main,
and that I did not contemplate a siege. The noble earl is '
not correct in his version of my evidence. What I said
was, that I expected to be in possession of Sebastopol long
before it would be necessary for the army to go into win-
ter quarters. So far from not contemplating a siege and
not making provisions for it, two effective and complete
battering trains were sent out, and were in Lord Raglan's
possession when he undertook the expedition ; and from
the very first every effort was made to provitie the army
with the means of carrying on a siege. (Hear.) The
noble lord says, that we made no provision for the com-
forts of the men that we sent out no huts and no warm
clothing. Undoubtedly, the huts were not ordered until
after it became evident that the place would not be
taken except by a long siege • but I must contradict the
statement that no warm clothing was provided for
the army. So early as the month of August a large
quantity of woollen clothing of every description, addi-
tional warm clothing, both under and upper, extra great-
coats
to go over the ordinary greatcoats, and a variety of
things of that description to an enormous amount, were
sent out—a large portion of them before we heard of the re-
sult of the siege. But if the noble earl means that we did
not send out in the middle of summer that large quantity
of sheepskins and furs which we sent out subsequently, un-
doubtedly the noble earl is correct. It is incorrect and
most unfair towards me to represent that I have ever al-
lowed to drop from me in conversation, much less in any
speech in Parliament, or in any public capacity, one word
derogatory to the character of any officer in that army.
(Hear.) I'have never thrown discredit upon any officer,
least of all upon my noble and gallant friend whoholds the
chief command in the Crimea. The noble earl says the
Government is to blame for not making the railway sooner,
and to support the charge he refers to the answer of Sir
John Burgoyne, given before the Sebastopol Committee,
to what I must trm a silly question—whether it would
not have, been a great advantage to have had the railway
in October. Of course, Sir John Burgoyne said it would.
It would have been a great advantage if we bad found a
railway already there. It would have been a great advan-
tage if we had had a railway all the way, and other things
equally impossible would as certainly have been advanta-
geous. Remember where this railway is applicable. From
Balaklava to Sebastopol. And what was the intention
when the troops landed at Old Fort? It was agreed by
the generals and by the Government that Sebastopol
should be attacked on the north side, and it was only
after the Battle of the Alma that Lord Raglan and
General St. Arnaud determined on the flank march
which led to Balaklava, and subsequently to our
laying siege to the south side of Sebastopol. Is not
this a specimen of how accusations are cast upon those
who have the management of the war? (Hear.) And
when the noble earl says the railway might as well have
been sent in the month of October as in the month of
April, I beg he will recollect that I sent for Sir M. Peto
at the end of November, and that the rail way was sent out
in the beginning of December. (Cheers.) The noble earl
who brought forward his motion condemned the Govern-
ment for not being in a position to move the army at once
when it landed at Varna. The provision for laud trans-
port requires a considerable time, and I am convinced if,
at the commencement of the war, it had been proposed to
the House of Commons to organise the transport corps
which I had the honour of providing through the instru-
mentality of that gallant officer ColonelM`Murdo' it would
have been laughed at as an extravagant and absurd,
though perhaps it would have been the wisest and molt
judicious, step that could have been taken. (Hear, hear.)
When the army moved to Yana, on the special requisi-
tion of Omer Pacha, at the very earliest possible moment,
before all the troops had arrived at Scutari from England,
it is an undoubted fact that there were not sufficient ani-
mals to enable the army to advance from Varna to Si-
listria.' The noble earl does net maintain that the army
• should have remained at Scutari, but approves the order
to move from Scutari to Varna. That advance to Varna
was made with a double object—to give a moral as well as
a material assistance to Oozier Pacha, and I have no hesi-
tation in saying that it was one of the main causes of rais-
ing the siege of Silistria, although up to
army hail not become a moveable army. (Cheers.at time the
) Go-
vernments may have neglected to put the sight men in the
right places, but no Government would recognise for one
moment the principle that any one but the best men should
be appointed, and every one would admit that the Go-
vernment which had appointed unfit men to high office
had grossly neglected its duty. The noble earl who
opened the debate has laid the blame upon the Reform
Act, in havine effected a change in the composition of
the House ofbCommons. I think that complaint its
to a certain extent correct, but not in the particular
point alluded to. A system has grown up of lat
years which has acted most prejudicially
providing men fit for holding office. The greatest part
of our mercantile men refuse for two causes to undertoake
offices of State ; the first is that they are unwilliiic, to
abandon their private career andaleprive their fa
the
the large and honourable gains they acquire ; and_
in regard tort
second is that they are reluctant to leave duties and avo-
cations that are agreeable to them, seeing
ten-
dency there is to heap obloquy upon every man ofseeveaFye
side of the house and of every party who may a
rt Ko
the discharge of public duties. There are numbers who
are perfectly qualified to take a part in the conduct of pub-
lic affairs, and I shall rejoice, whenever a general electiou shall occur, to sea a large increase in the number
the growingof such men sent into the House of Commons. But
there is a growing practice among constituencies not
to look among men whom they know to be of proved qua-
lifications and character, but to look up to clubs and co-
teries in London, to recommend them men who are parti-
sans of one body or another, and who sit and give a silent
vote for their party, instead of doing honour to the con-
stituency which returns them. As long as constituencies
pursue this course, and apply one party to the Carlton
Club and another to the Reform Club for members,L so
long shall we have men of mediocrity prepared to give
silent and tacit votes instead of men whose minds are pre-
pared for the performance of great public duties, and from
whom a Minister might select the officers of his Govern-
ment. From that body alone the high political officers
must be selected. My lords, I hope that these discussions
will not lead men to think that we are a beaten nation—
cleeers)---that we are incapable of the great deeds by which
our forefathers have distinguished themselves ; that our
bravery is the same, and the quality of our soldiers is
improved, but that in other respects we have deteriorated.
My lord-, I believe nothing of the kind. (Hear.) It may
be said that we began the siege of Sebastopol in Septem-
ber, but, looking at the position of the allied forces and
of the enemy, is it so unfavourable to us, and so:fa-
vourable to him? (Hear, hear.) We have placed a
pressare on the internal organisation of Russia that is
beginning to tell. Russia is suffering severely from the
drain of men, and the feelings of the people towards
the Sovereign power are undergoing a change. Is it
not true that we have sopped the direct commerce of
Russia? that we have swept from the sea every ship that
she possessed? that her great vessels of war are either sunk
at Sebastopol or lucked up or rotting in the harbours of
Cronstadt and Helsingfors ? We have effected a lodgment
on her shores, and by God's blessing we may soon be in a
position to dictate such a peace as will be alike honourable
to this country and will insure the attainment of those
great objects for which the war was undertaken. (Hear.)
the
grpTaht:nrehewaepspie:Guruer
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE (who was greeted
with a general cry of " Question 1") said that if by any
misfortune these resolutions were carried that night the
most injurious effect would be produced abroad ; and he
therefore trusted that their lordships would reject them by
a large majority.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY believed that the
present resolutions were brought forward with the view of
testing the strength of parties in that house, and had no
doubt that those who supported them did so with a desire
to change the Government. Under these circumstances,
while he wished it to be distinctly understood that he did
not rise as the advocate or one of the retainers of the noble
lord who held the office of Premier, at the same time he
felt that, the honour and dignity of the Crown and the de-
termination of the country to maintain its position as a
great empire being now concerned, it would have been a
dereliction of duty on his part to remain on the cross
sud
onl adt
under
rue
their
and r
duty
great
trt arty
yiydfs
forward
struggles taw: net
.htuit
regl
(tigi lebeeasyfaftnohdr
benches. If their lordships would not show to the world
r
tsfhue
aware,
aerm ef
disturbedreoxitbhai
ent exhibition
public
ofdangerous
party
power in a momentous crisis of our history, they would
bee: ooleveileendrdadm,ninheamaitai
rrpvei
:Da:
also
etowuaidussh
tgci ocib
nhut
eon,
amid
meet-
ingsstateth; aatusdvewreasbietinlgikheelyldthinatfatvhoeuvrioefwasdpmaint
greatth coun-
try.at
nerg erum
e
noble earl (Lord Ellenborough) and his fr •
ends that night
would at all satisfy the feeling out of doors friends
ques-
tion? Could the noble lords opposite produce aon
this
Government
whose talent, ability, and experience would hold out, to the
country the hope that its affairs would be better conducted
in the present emergency than they were at present? Hehim-
self wished to see well-considered ref
all the administrative departments
of the
into
State,
having confidence in the ability of the noble but, not
earl. opposite
and his supporters to carry out those reforms a satisfac-
tory manner, he would oppose the resentli
P
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE__ motion.
I rose for the purpose of
making some observations more than once within the last
half hour, but most glad. was Ito give way to the noble mar-
quis, whom, I hope, I
friend, may
bePe
although I cannot rmittecr to call my noble
him claim any political relations with. I was glad also to • give way to my noble friend the
noble duke on the bench below me, much more able, and
much more entitled than myself to • give explanations upon
the parti •
cular acts connected with the departments over
which he for so •
MO time Folded, and for overi Vie whlQb

of the Government upon the subject of military reform.
(A. laugh.) I cannot, however, give her Alajesty's Minis-
ters mush credit for the zeal which they have for the last
few days exhibited in connection with the subject, inas-
much as I think they have been much quickened into
action by the hints which they lately received. (Hear,
hear.) I have a great respect for the deference which they
have shown to public opinion, but I trust that they will
carry that deference to a somewhat mare considerable ex-
tent than was manifested by the announcement of the
noble viscount at the head of the Government in the other
House of Parliament. I entertain some doubts with
respect to the wisdom and the prudence of making such a
change with regard to the Ordnance Department as is pro-
posed, more especially unless the machinery which is to
be called into action with that change is well arranged.
I hail the proposition, however, as an evidence of increased
activity upon the part of her Majesty's Ministers, and
of deference to the well-expressed feelings of growing dis-
satisfaction and discontent which prevail throughout the
country. (Hear, hear.) But, at the same time, I must
say that in my opinion that increased defererce to public
opinion and that increased activity upon the part of the
Government have not been a little stimulated, not only
by what has occurred out of doors, but by the hint
which the resolutions of my noble friend :near me con-
vey. (Hear, hear.) One word more before I sit down.
The noble earl opposite has referred to the probable effect
of the adoption of these resolutions upon the Government.
Ht: says he thinks that nothing can be more unsatisfactory
than constant changes of government, and says that fre-
quent alterations df policy are a great evil to the country.
I am of the same opinion ; but I must add, that I wish.
the noble earl and those who act with him had taken, at
the close of the year 1852, similar views upon that subject
to which they now give expression.• (Hear, and a laugh.)
I am sure they will do those who sit upon this side of the
house the justice to consider that, however agreeable the
position which her Majesty's ministers, as a general rule,
occupy, may be, the recent position of affairs renders the
task of endeavouring to discharge the various functions of
the public service one which any man would desire to be
spared. I beg to say—although I cannot deny that the
motion under which the present government has conducted
the operations connected with the war—l beg to say, and
I do so with the utmost sincerity, that I should very much
regret that the consequence of the success of the motion
should be the imposition upon noble lords sitting upon this
side of the house of the responsibility of administering the
affairs of the country at a moment so critical as the pre-
sent. Ido not admit, however, that the position of affairs
now is precisely the same as it was when I myself, from a
sense of public duty, was called upon to decline that re-
sponsibility of forming a government with which her
Majesty was graciously pleased to entrust me. In the first
place, there were then negotiations pending of the utmost
delicacy and perplexity; and to interfere with the pro-
gress of these negotiations by any change of Government
might have been productive of the most serious conse-
quences. On public grounds, therefore, a complete change
in the administration at the time of which I speak would
undoubtedly involve much inconvenience, and would be
exceedingly dangerous to the country. It also happened
that the noble viscount now at the head of the Govern-
ment enjoyed at that time the advantage of great
prestige throughout the country, and he, of all men,
was then deemed to be the best qualified of any of our
statesmen to conduct the public affairs with vigour,
firmness, decision, and energy. That feeling prevailed to
such an extent that I am perfectly confident that no admi-
nistration could be formed in February last of which the
noble viscount was not a member, which would not be ac-
cused of having kept oat of office that man in the country
who was the most competent to be at the, head of affairs.
I hope it is not being disrespectful to the noble viscount to
say that the prestige to which I have referred has since
considerably diminished, and that the warmth and fervour
of that admiration which the country entertained for him
have fallen down, if nut to zero, at all events to a tempera-
ture much lower than that at which they some time since
stood. (Hear, and a laugh.) I am not sure that if the
country was now to lose his services it would be inclined
to regard that loss as irreparable, or that without hisaid it
would be impossible that the business of the public service
could be efficiently conducted. (Hear, and laughter.) But
the noble earl opposite says, " we do not mind the effect of
those resolutions so far as the Government is concerned,
but just consider the effect which they are calculated to
produce upon foreign countries." The noble earl seems to
imagine that the consequence of the success of my noble
friend's motion will be that foreign nations will be brought
to look upon England as possessing no great resources for
the prosecution of the war ; that encouragement will be
afforded to the peace party in France ; that that country
would be rendered indisposed to continue her alliance with
us, and that Russia would gain confidence when she be-
came aware of how we ourselves were inclined to disparage
the means at our disposal. Ido not exactly know what
the noble earl supposes the consequences would be in the
case of Austria, but Prussia he appeared to think would
avail herself of passing of these resolutions to take a
course inconsistent with our interests. The noble earl
has abstained, however, from pointing ont a single word
in these resolutions which could make the impression or
bear out the views which he has represented to the
house. France, my lords, we recognise with the highest
gratification as our ally. The perfect understanding
which sarbsiats between her and this country we hold to
be fraught with advantages, not alone to us, but to the
future interests of other nations. The noble earl com-
mitted a great mistake when he says that by these resoln-
tions we seek to disparage the resources of England. We
do not do that, my lords ; we seek to disparage only the
manner in which those resources have been husbanded and
applied. (Hear, hear.) We draw a distinction between
England and her Majesty's ministers. (Hear, hear.) And
if, by disparaging the conduct of the latter, we can incite
them to the display of fresh energy and activity in the
future conduct of the war, we need not for a moment ap-
prehend that the consequence will be that our friendly re-
lations with any great power will thereby be in the smallest
degree interfered. (Hear, hear.) It is my lords, because
I hold that—as the noble lord had said--the greater por-
tion of these resolutions consists of truisms which cannot
be controverted—truisms which it is aosolutely necessary
to place upon record upon the solemn declaration of the
parliament of this country—embodying our determination
to prosecute the war with all the energy in our power and
to adhere to our alliance with France—it is, I repeat, be-
cause I hold that these resolutions give expression to those
sentiments, and because they declare your lordships'
opinions, ann unced in this house, to be in conformity
with the just feelings of your fellow-subjects, that I give
my support to the motion which has been made by my
noble friend. Whether he succeeds or does not, in carry-
ing these resolutions, I rejoice that while we, the members
of the great Conservative party, are anxious to maintain
the institutions of this country, we do not set at nought,
the manifestation of public feeling, but that, while de-
sirous of co-operating with that feeling to the fullest extent
to which we can go, we do not seek to implicate ourselves
in the extravagances into which it is sometimes betrayed.
(Cheers )
The Duke of NEWCASTLE, who at the commence-
ment of his speech was very imperfectly heard, in con-
sequence of the noise occasioned by a number of peers'
quitting the house, said,—mot appears to me that the rea-
sons which have been assigned by the noble earl who
last addressed the house for supporting these resolu-
tions are so unsound that they will fail in inducing
many of your lordships who usually act with the noble
earl from giving the resolutions that assent which he is
prepared to give to them. The noble earl said that, al-
though he must admit the resolutions did, in some sense,,
bear the construction of a vote of censure upon the Go-
vernment, be would feel deep regret if they should have
the effect of displacing the 'Government from office. Now,
I must contend that, if thee() are the opinions of the noble
earl, he ought not to support the resolutions. If the two
noble earls opposite believe conscientiously that, by the
displacement of the present Government from office, and
by themselves assuming—by the grace and favour of the
Sovereign—the management of pablio affairs, they would
be able to conduct the war with increased energy, and so
to promoto the public welfare, I think they would be per-
fectly justified in bringing forward and supporting these
resolutions • but I must say that if the motion is brought
forward, not' with the view of displacing the Government,
but of rendering what some noble lord asserts to be a weak
Government still weaker, it is not a course worthy of the
Peers of England at a moment like the present. Unless
the object is to displace the Government, I see no patriotic
grounds for supporting the resolutions. The noble earl
expressed some surprise that the two members of her Ma-
jesty's Government who have spoken did not enter into any
detailed defence of the conduct of the war • but I think it
must have been evident to the noble earl that those noble
lords did not enter into such a defence because no case
had been set up on the other side which it was necessary
for them to answer. Accustomed as I have been, not
merely since I have had a seat in this house, but for many
years previously, to listen with the greatest interest to the
speeches of my noble friend who brought forward those
resolutions, I must say that I never heard any speech
of his which seemed to me so deficient in strength as that
to which I listened this evening. It appeared to me to be
entirely defective with regard to all those great attributes
which distinguish his speeches. The noble earl did not
bring forward in his usual concise and consecutive order
such facts es he is accustomed to place before the
house, nor did he state to the house those clear and
logical deductions which on former occasions he has ad-
duced from the facts he has brought forward. Having
listened attentively to the noble earl, and to my noble and
gallant friend who spoke at considerable length, I must
say that, with the exception of the anecdotes which my
noble friend narrated, and one of which I may observe
was utterly and entirely inaccurate—(a laugh)—l am un-
able to fix upon anything tangible in their speeches. Nor
do I think the noble earl who last spoke has materially
improved the case as it was left by his predecessors. The
noble earl has occupied the greater part of his speech in
referring to the doctrines of that association which has yet
to be formed, and of which he has professed himself in
somewhat hesitating terms a disciple, though certainly to
a more limited extent than the noble earl who brought
forward the reselutians ; but, beyond this, he seems to me
to have confined himself to one single point—the policy of
the expedition to the Crimea. I had hoped that I might
have been spared the necessity of alluding to any matter
personal to myself, but a noble earl opposite stated, cer-
tainly in terms of very great courtesy and kindness, that
he could not agree in approving what has been called my
"commendable ambition" in taking upon myself the ma-
nagement of the War Department. I will not on this
occasion go over that painful ground, but I may remind
the noble earl and the house that in the month of February
I commented upon those very words, and I stated expli-
citly to the house—and my statement has never been con-
troverted—the precise circumstances under which I as-
sumed the office. The noble earl has laid considerable
stress upon the point that the management of the war was
placed in fny hands, I being a civilian,—as if it had not
been, I may say, a constitutional doctrine in this country
that the management of the War Department should be
in the hands of- a civilian. At any rate, that has been
the invariable practice. While the Commander-in-Chief
of the army is of course a military man, the Secretary of
State has invariably been a civilian. But the noble earl
maintained, this being the case, that I ought to have had
the assistance of competent military men. Now, no one
has more readily expressed concurrence in that sen-
timent, both in this house and elsewhere, than myself. It
must be remembered, however, that we have to consider
not merely who shall occupy military offices in this country,
but who shall command your army in the Crimea. lam
sure my noble friend the Commander-in-Chief will bear
me out when I say that for a long time I hesitated to con-
cur in the recommendation that my deeply-lamented friend
Sir G. Cathcart should be appointed to a command in the
Crimea. And why? Because I felt it of the utmost possible
importance to me that I should have the advice and assis-
tance of such a man at home. At the same time, as it was
the greatest possible object that Lord Raglan should have
his aid in the Crimea in the command of a division, I felt
it to he my duty, upon a balance of arguments, to place
him at Lord Raglan's disposal. The noble earl went on to
say that tha °ammo Dopartwout was loft in a most WA-

„ proxies ...

- 71
. 115

Not content, present

proxies

-181

Majority against the resolutions... 110
The house then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

acts, I am glad to say, I myself bear an humble share of Go-
vernment responsibility with him—(cheers)—and, I will add,
glad am Ito be responsible with him. (Hear, hear.) My
lords, the noble earl who introduced these resolutions, and the
noble earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) who supported him,
appeared to take different views of the subject of administra-
tive reform. The latter noble earl disclaimed founding his
support of the reso'utions upon that sentiment which is
abroad with respect to the administration of public affairs,
and which he thought it expedient, far the sake of the present
and future Governments, to resist. When he found it as-
serted in the resolutions, not directly, but by insinuation,
that men were selected in this country for public employment
with regard to other considerations than the public service,
he must be allowed t. ask what it meant ? Did it mean a
charge ? If such a charge were brought against any Govern-
ment, no scruple with regard to men or principles ought to
deter any one from distinctly stating who the men were.
(Hear.) The noble earl, however, abstained from all particu-
lar mention of men in the cow se of his resolutions, although
he had not done so in the course of his speech. Throughout
the whole of the motion the noble lord had, in reference to
the motives which induced him to make it, alluded to one
man, and that man was Lord Palmerston. (A lau,gh.) The
noble earl had referred to some observations made by
the late Duke of Wellington with respect to Lord Palmerston,
in which the duke was represented as having said that he
would not fire large guns at small birds, and he (the noble
marquis) might say that Lord Palmerston did not think it
worth while, upon a recent occasion, to fire eff his powder at
a great bird, although he possibly might have hit his man.
(Laughter.) The reason why our army in the Crimea was
now in a perfect state of efficiency was, because there had
been sufficient time to revive it. From the period of the revo-
lution down to the present time, in every war in which we
had been engaged, the first year, was unsuccessful, and often
unsuccessful to a degree infinitely greater than it had been in
the case of the present war. The noble marquis then refer-
red to the expedition which was sent by William 111. over to
Ireland under the Duke of Sehomberg, and to the seven years'
war, the circumstances attending which bore out his assertion
with 1 egard to the hardships suffered during the first year.
According to the noble earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) nei-
ther with a reform Parliament nor.with an unreformed Par-
ment could any Government of this country hope to carry on
the affairs of the nation. He did not doubt the desire of the
noble lord to find out the best persons for the best places ;
but, with the fairest intentions, it was a popular error to sup-
pose there existed in this country a reservoir out of which
talent could be drawn at any time. Until noble lords opposite
could point out the persons who had been appointed from un-
fair motives, or from any other motive than fitness for their
employment, he should continue to think that his noble friend
had been actuated in making all their appointments by con-
siderations for the public good. Another reason why he ob-
jected to the proposed resolutions was, that they were likely
to create an impression in Europe that we were a defeated
country. That he wholly denied, and no circumstances had
arisen to justify the terms, " general dissatisfaction," used in
the resolutions. The result of the war to the present time had,
in fact, been to reduce Russia as a naval power to a most con-
temptible position—to render it, in fact, a nonentity as such,
and very greatly to destroy and ruin its trade. Was it not fair,
in considering the results of a war, to take into account the
losses of the enemy ? If it was, it might be melancholy satis-
faction for us to know that the loss which Russia had sustained
was threefold that of the allies. If we had suffered from want
of clothing, transports, &c., Russ a had suffered tenfold more,.
He (the noble marquis) held in his hand a paper containing
statistics of the very highest authority. The name of the
writer he would not state ; but it appeared from the paper ,
referred to, that, a few days before the death of the Emperor
Nicholas, a return was made up, stating that 177,000 Rus-
siar s had died during the present war up to that date ; and
by a supplemental return, made some days afterwards, it ap-
peared that 70,000 more were added to the above list, making
a total loss of 247,000 men. The noble earl condemned in
general terms the conduct of the war—and the proposed re-
solutions were thus condemnatory of the French Government ;
for he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) could assert that no step
had been taken in this War, or expedition planned, that had
not been, if not suggested, yet cordially concurred in, by our
invaluable ally. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) could not
find out from the speech of the noble earl opposite whether
or not he condemned Lord Raglan ; but as nothing was said
about it he presumed he did not wish to condemn him, He
(the noble marquis) was glad of it, for to Lord Raglan we
principally owed the warm attachment and cordial alliance
which had sprung up, and through the most trying circum-
stances continued to exist between ourselves and our allies.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that he should, in re-
ply, only address himself to two observations which had been
made in the course of the discussion—the one by the noble
marquis who hadjust sat down, the other by the noble duke op-
posite (the Duke of Newcastle). He could not allow the noble
marquis to say that these resolutions were to the effect that
this country was a defeated country. He wholly denied that
such was the case. The troops of this country had obtained the
greatest glory by their conduct at the battles of Alma and In-
kerman, and by the magnificent attack of the cavalry at Bala-
klava. But what he (the Earl of Ellenborough)did say was, that
they had been deprived of the advantages of victory by the man-
ner in which the Government was carrying on the war, and
that, as it was now conducted, it was impossible for the
troops to gain a decisive success. With reference to what had
fallen from the noble duke opposite, to the effect that the
house originally made no objection to the expedition to Se-
bastopol, he (the Earl of Ellenborough) must say that such
was not the true facts of the case. That expedition was not
known until the sth of August, when they were all out of
town. He wrote, however, to the noble earl the President of
the Council, and stated fully the nature of his objections to
the expedition; and the noble earl told him that he had cir-
culated his letter among his colleagues. (Hear, hear.) The
Government was therefore perfectly aware of his opinions, and
the only regret which ho felt was, that he had not returned
to town to enforce them more strongly upon the Government.
After a few words in explanation from the Duke of NEW-
CASTLE, which were inaudible in the gallery,
Their lordships then divided, when the numbers were
Content, present

ROUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were real a third time and passed :
—Banff, Macduff, and Turriff Rail way,Commercial-road,
Cork and Yuughall Railway, Fibre Company, Leomin-
ster and Ledbury-road, Limerick and Castleconnel
way, Manchester Improvement, Renfrew Police and
Improvement, South %Vales Railway (Conolidation),
Swansea Docks, and Waterford and Limerick Railway.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
read a third time :—Cr.mford and High Peak Railway ;
Kingston-upon-Hull. Hussle, and Ferri'lly-road ;_New-
town and Oswestry Railway, St. Helen's Improvement,
Ayr Harbour, and Weston super Mare Gas.
PETITIONS.
Petitions wera presented by Sir Joshua Walrus-
ley from Protestant Dissenters of Leicester, for the ,
abolition of church rates ' • by Mr. Grogan, from a parish
in Dublin, against the Maynooth grant : by Lord New-
port, two petitions from Shropshire, for the
abolition of church rates ; by Mr. Hadfield,
16 petitions from Chesterfield and other places in favour
of the abolition of church rates ; by Mr, Cobden, several
petitions from Doncaster, and other places in Yorkshire,
for the abolition of church rates ; by Mr. A. Pellatt,
seven petitions frcin Essex with the same prayer.

THE BOARD OF HEALTH.
Lord R. GROSVENOR asked the President of the
Board of Health whether forms 'were issued to the
legally qualified medical practitioners of the metropolis
last year, inviting them to fill them up, in
order to exhibit the result of the various methods
adopted by them for the treatment of cholera ;
whether, when those forms were returned, the Medical
Council of the Board of Health refused to take cogni-
sance of any of them, or of any returns of a like nature
made by the legally qualified medical officers of any
hospital, and, if so, for what reason ? And, if any cor-
respondence had taken place between the General Board of
• Health and any persona complaining of omissions in the
report issued by the board, as to the results of cholera
treatment ; and, if So, whether he had any objection to
lay it upon the table of the house ?
Sir B. HALL said after he accepted office he appointed
a medical council to assist him. They met for
the first time on the 6th September, and forms were
sent round to all qualified medical practitioners, but
afterwards he was informed that some of them had not
sent full reports as to those who followed the homoeopathic
system. He could have no objection whatever to lay
the returns on the table.
BURIAL GROUNDS AT GRANTHAM.

Lord W. GRAHAM asked the Secretary iTState
for the Home Department on what grounds he had re-
fused to comply with the request of the parishioners of
Grantham, that the right of interment in existing vaults
in the parish church should be continued to the proprie-
tors of the said vaults, the representation for closing the
burial ground not having yet been taken into considera-
tion by the Privy Council ?
Sir G. GREY said until the representation of the
Secretary of State was taken into consideration by the
Council no steps could be taken in such matters. With
regard to Grantham, he did not think himself "notified
in departing from the recommendation of the medical
inspectors.