The Sun.
London, England, 1855-06-19 00:00:00

' an immense crowd ; and if they had only supported the
noble lord sines with the same unanimity as they showed
at that meeting he might still have been Minieter. It,wes
a meeting of men repentant for a deed which, when it wes
executed, filled them with some alarm. No .v, what was the
address of the nobled art When
.the new government was
hardly swore i -a Goverment,- reapan bar, that ontly,
threw themselves into °film front the‘failnreof the noble
lord to retain it? The noble lord seid'hiesineerely deplored
all that hail occurred ; he regretted the want of :good iro,
tolligence there had been in the Liberal party ; ho said he
wag willing to take to himself the greater part of the blame
of that want of intelligence, and of that little good under-
standing ; that there had been complaints that the Govern-
ment hid been 'constructied on tso narrow a basis ; that he
was not disposed (now the Government was upset) to
qnarrel with that definition ; that, profiting by experience,
he could assure them that if the whele Liberal party would
be again unanimous in supporting him, there should be
another hroeil-bottomed ; that the area in
future should be extended, the basis should be as wide as
they liked, that the men of the people should find themselves
in the council chambers of the Sovereign, and that all they
hail to do to achieve those purposes was to terminate as
soon as 'possible the administration the noble lord hail
lii.nss.lf receni mended to her Msjeety. Observe what has
happened. You turned us out of oiiiee when we were about
to give you a conscientious administrative reform-(ironical
'cheers and I %righter from the ministerial benchss.) Have
yon now got it? Yon tarried us out of office when .you
were in a state of profonad peace, and I declare. my
solemn conviction that our leaving office has entailed upon
you the state! of war in which you now are. (Hear, bear.)
But if yon have lost your administrative reform, what
have you eainral ? A dangerous, not to say a disestsons
'war. 'Where is the Government on a broad basis 'which
you have secured? Where is the Administration on so
extended beeis which you were promised ? Where are the
men of the people in the council chambers of the Sovereign?
Yon have not only lost what you might have gained, Lot
you have gained what you might have avoided. You have
gained a Government formed nn the most excluidve basis,
and the principal occupation of your future career will be
to vote confidence in the men who take every opportunity
to treat you with the contumely you deserve. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that, before he adverted to the
motion before the house, ho must say a word or two personal
to himself with reference to accusations which were brought
against him by the honourable member for Aylesbury at the
meeting which took place at Drury-lane. The honourable
gentleman was pleased to say, in the speech which he then
made-on an occasion with regard to which it might be said
that there were many persons represented as having been
present who were never there atall-(hoar, hear, hear) -and
that so far from its being a meeting for public discussion, it
was arranged.that only the persons who convened the meet-
ing should speak-the hon. gentleman sail, as reported in
the papers, speaking of him (Lord Palmerston), that this
was the only time he had seen a man jesting upon the
sufferings of the peoplo-(hear, heir)-and making light of
their unfortunate condition-( hear, bear)-and this, too, he
sad, was done at a moment when Europe was looking to the
British Parliament for an example of wisdom, order, an I
liberal government; and then he added that he must acknow-
ledge he had never seen Lord Palmerston in earnest except
when lie was vilifying the people of this country. (Hear.)
Now he (Lord Palmerston) was unwilling in that house to
make use of any expressions which should be contrary to its
rules ; but the hon. member having made that charge in
public, he, equally in public, and to his face, told the lion.
member that there was not one word of truth in the asser-
tions that lie then made.. (Loud cheers from all parts of the
house.) Ho never jested at,the sufferings of the people-
(hear, hear)--he never made light of their unfortunate con-
tlition-(hear,
hear)-and, so far from ever having vilified
the people of England; the whole course of his conduct
through life, in every ward which had fallen from his lips in
that house or elsewhere, attested the respectful admiration
which he felt for the People of this country, and the pride
with which he was animated at belonging to a nat:oe so noble
and so distinguished. (Cheers.) He wondered that when
the hon. member made that statement a blush of shame did
not come over his face -(eheers)-at making charges which
his conscience, if it ever spoke to him at all -(laneehteee-
ought to have told him were utterly and diametrically the
reverse of the truth. Ho would say no more of the Drury-
lane private theatricals, (Cheers and laughter,) The motion
they were called upon to discuss, explained by the speech of
the hon. member for Aylesbury, had turned upon the army.
upon the diplemacys and upon the civil service. He won lere 1
the hon. member did. tot in his speech at all diseatsi
that question which. upon former eiceas!ola had been made
so much of--the composition of the Government. That
the hons membdr entirely omitted.' With 'regard' to
the composition of thaGovernment, he was alone -responsible
for it. He received the commands of his Sovereign to submit •
to her the list of persons who should form the Goveinment.
He was led by no family connexions. There was not a man
of the Government that was related to him by any, family
conneixon. He looked oat for those men who, being the.
most distinguished by their experience and talents in public
life, as proved by their Parliamentary conduct, were most in
agreement with himself in their public principles, with whom
he felt it most likely that be should be able harmoniously to
act, and by whose assistance the Government could be most
efficiently carried on. Therefore, the charge of the Govern-
ment being constructed on family or .personal considerations
was a charge which the very existence of the persons at the
head of the Government entirely and completely disprove 1.
With regard to all those charges which the lion. member hail
made with regard to the administration of the army, as his
hon. friend the Under Secretary for the War Department had
gone through them one by one, and had entirely disproved
every assertion which the' hon. member had made, he (Lord
Paltnerstonl thought it unnecessary to troulde the house with
anything further on that subject. With regard to the
matic arrangements, he was really surprised to hear what f 'll
from the hon. member, for the hon. member was critic'sinr
that department in which he himself was for a time empleve.l
While the lion, member charged the Coverament with a eye-
temetie disregard of talent, and of a dogged adherence to rou-
tine and favouritism, he himself was allying proof of the
hood of that charge. Why -was the hoe, mei-rib e. termed Un-
der Secretary for Foreign Affairs? Was it from family fa-
vouritism, routine, or connexion ? Was it not because ti e
noble lord the Secretary for the Colonies -acting entirely upon
what he had- heard of the talents awl- energy Of the hon.
member, which no one will dispute, whatever they may nil*
of the discretion of his conduct-ofrcred him that office, and
proved,. in so doing, that in the conduct of the Government
regard is paid to merit, and that thoso who aro responsible for
the great public departments of the state do to al: out for pee- •
sons whom they think capable of rendering. good service to
the couutrs. It was said that none hut the aristocracy were
employed in the diplomatic service, and two names hal been
selected.by the hon. member as examples, that all who were
connected with that service were p 'era. But what peers were
they, and how came they to be peers ? Loril Stratford de
Redcliffe was not made an ambassador because ha was a poll..
but lie was made a peer because lie was an ambassador, and
the coronet which now adorned his brow was the reward of a
long career of honourable and useful service rendered to his
country. (Cheers.) Then, again, there was the else of Leal
Cowley. That peerage was conferred upon the distinguished
father of the present ambassador in Franco towards the close
of a long and honourable life spent in the service of his coun-
try, and the peerage had descended to a Ron who had most
ably served the Crown, and had proved himself a worthy
nephew of the Duke of Wellington and the Marquis of Welles-
ley. The lion. member had also referred to the sta'o of the
consular establishment in the East. But when the hon. mem-
ber was in the Foreign-office why did lie not himself put an
end to the system ? Ho brought with him local knowledee.and
personal experience, and why did he not recommend to his
chief some alteration in that state of affairs? Another cem-
plaint was that there was no promotion in the consular service.
His reply to this was that he held in his hand a list of the
present consul-geuerals, hardly one of whom• had not risen
to their position from the post of vice-consul or consul, and
almost all of them had risen from inferior positions in the
consular service. (Cheers) The hon. member also in tale
some personal reflections upon the noble lord the present mi-
nister at Florence. That nobleman had filled high and im-
portant offices of state in this country, and it was an unwor-
thy effort on the part of the lion, member to intimate that ins
was not competent to die Irarge the duties of the office which
he holds. (Cheers.) With respect to the civil service, on
which the greater portion of this debate had turned, the
right hon. gentleman the member for Backs had informed the
house of all the great plans which his Government had in-
tended to carry into effest if it had pleased Parliameut to
allow then to do so. We know how broad is that pavement
which is said to be paved with good intent ions--(a lu ,gh)-
and the intentions of the Government of which the right bon.
gentleman formed a part would, no doubt, have extended
over a 'considerable portion of it if they had been allowed to
lay them down. Now it was very strange in connection with
those reforms, that whenever a thing was not done' it*was
always magnified and considered of the utmost importance.
No sooner, however, was a thing done than it was usual to
exclaim, " Lord have mercy !- what is the value of that- (a
laugh)-we want you to invent something-to do something
that nobody ever thought of-to find out some evil that had
never been conceived, and provide for it sonic remedy which
no human ingenuity ever discovered -do this, and thee we
will say You are a Government deserving the confidence of
the country." (Laughter.) Now they were told that it w s
important to appoint qualified young men to discharge the
duties connected with the civil service. At present in many
offices a very rigid examination was instituted, and young
men constantly rejected for not being able to puss the exarni-
netion. A young man whom I myself recommended was
rejected by the examiners a short time since. I regretted
that he was so rejected, but on the other hand I wis glad to
see that the examiners had, exercised that scrutiny which led
to that rejection. (Cheers.) But beyond this, an order in
council was issued the other day for the purpose of enforcing
a uniform system of examination in all public offices connected
with the civil servhe e, Ho trueted that that would be at-
tended with considerable advantage to the public service.
But wo must not deceive ourselves with respect to the attrac-
tions which the public service posso4es. We Must not
imagine that, even if the public service were bell out to
publie comp tition, whip h he did not believe woad be appli-
cable to the purpose, but even if they opened an office to
which any man might come from any part of the country to
be examined, and put 'down his name as a candidate for vacen-
cies as they arose.-they must not imagine that, with the
salaries which were now given to persons employed in the
public offices, with the degree of labour which they would
have to undergo, with the sacrifice of health which confine-
ment to office frequently entailed, with the knowledge that
their meritorious services. could not, front the yeey nature
of their occupations, be brought under official notice, yin
the length of time they would have . to wait before they
could arrive by any progression to the higher and more pro-
fitable employments of the office-they must not, lie con-
tended, imagine that the civil service would ever ,hold' out
such temptations as would induce persons of rising talent
to refrain from entering upon 'the more profitable avo•
cations of commerce,' and those other roads to fame and
fortune which were so much more open than they could
ever be in the civil service. 'Now two very contrary
opinions had been propounded to the house upon the,
subject. Honourable members who
.sat below the gangway
hold that the Government ought not to follow routiue in
official appointments, and that when an office was vacant in
which much responsibility and many important duties were
to be performed, they ought to look out among commercial
men for persons competent by 'their talesitand. industry to
perform those duties. The right hon. gentleman the member
for Bucks, on the other hand, held an exactly contrary doc-
trine, and said that the Government onAt to make the civil
service a profession by itself, aid make the higher offices
objects of ambition for persons lathe lower stations. Now,
in his opinion, neither of these rules ought to be Invariably
adhered to. As an instance of bow far these appointments
ought to depend upon circumstances, he stated that the office
of permanent Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
. had recently become vacant by the retirement of the gentle-
• man who bed formerly held it. The noble earl at the heal of
the F reign-office had appointed to the vacant post one of the
most distinguished meu in the Foreign-office-one who had
worked his way up-and one who by his talents, his energy,
and perseverance, and his -great activity of mind, was per-
fectly fitted for time discharge of the duties of the office, and
to the great honour of Lord Clakendon, and the benefit of the
country, Mr. Hammond had been made permanent Under-
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. On the other hand,
• Lord Amur° ha,d recently to APl** Tenons to superin,

tend other branches se the public . service. The noble lord
appointed Mr. Hotvell, •a- gentleman who had been
some time. employed by the Government, but was
not i fficially- connected with the Government. That gentle-
, man was appointed becaase. he was bediev,d to be peramtly
cousretent to discharge the daties which were ; required
to be performed, and Lord P3IIIIIIITO had said th4t during
the • sln rt - space of •time for which that 4entlenviu
"cad been appointed be had already effected ''consider-
able saving' in' the public expen•iituro in the do.partmeut
over which he was placed. (Cheers.) Then, agoan, in the
clothing department of the army, Lord Panmurc had ap-
pointed Sir Thomas Troubridge. to the head of that depart-
ment. (cheers.)
of that gallant, offieer
and the appointment
That was an officer who had received some
most severs wounds before the enemy,
insensible. to the just claims of the 'army.' (Cheers ) So that
was a proof that Lord .Panmure was not
while the noble lord had taken from the commercial world a
man well-fitted for the star inn which he was to ' occupy, he
had upon the other hand coufc:rred by another appoint-
ment a wall-deserved rewa-ed upon a most distinguished
military officer. (Cheers.) Those things prove` that her
Majesty's Government were fully alive to the duties which
they had to perform. (Cheers.) When the -right hon. gen-
tleman the member for Buckinghamshire sail 't4 Govern-
ment wire opposed by a vast majority of t-14 house; he (Lord
Palmerston) said, on the contrary, that the Government re-
ceived the thanks of the right lion. gentleman bimsdlf —a vote
of confidence by a very large majority. • (hear.) they were
certainly indebted to the right hon: gentleman for that votP,
because ho brought forward a resolution which wa4 intended
to be h. condemnation of the Government, but which resulted
in an honourable and triumphant acquittal. (Hear, hear.
It would be superfluous to cuter into any argument why the) house should not accept the motion of the hon. member foe
Aylesbury. The hon, gentleman talked of disast.eris impend-
ing over the.conntry, and discredit to the national character.
Why; the national Character never stood higher that it did at

the present moment, and so far from anticipating disasters we
had every reason for anticipating events of an opposite nature.
(Hear, hear.) Wo had got in the Crimea an army which,
having reervered from the sufferings of a severe viinter, was
now in as fine a condiain as any British army which ever
took the field.• an army which, in point of numbeb, health,
equipment, spirit, and confidence in its officers, was equal to
Any army of any .conutry' which ever marched la.gainst an
enemy at the beginning of a c empaigu. (Hear, !hear.) It
was fighting side by side with the troops of an ally on whom
we could depend—troops which had shown that their valour
was equal to our own ; and the two combined were a match
for any troops in the world, and were sure, when they gave
battle, to march to a victorious result. So far, then, from
tailing, of discrurt to the country, or anticipating! disasters,
he doubted whether there were ten men in the house who
would vote for a resolution which eentained a statement so
little iu consmance with the feelings of the country or with
the fair prospects to whielove were entitled to lock forward.
(Hear, hear.) lint the Government were asked, with respect

,o the motion of the honon-able baronet the member for Hert-

fordsbire, whether they at cepted it in sincerity.: With sin-
cerity they did accept it. (Heir, hear.) Theyeccepted it
as pledging them to pursue that system of administrative re-
form as an official improvement which that house and the
country required, and which the disposition of the Govern-
ment would equally lead them to adopt. For what possible
intoreet could any Government have in pursuing any other
course ? It had been said that the heads of offiees would ab-
, stain from appointing orfic'al staffs, lest the credit should be
reaped by their successors. Why, such a miserable feeling'
would be unworthy of any man who ever occupied a respon-
sible situation. (Hear, hear.) Every public man felt
pride in leaving his office in such a condition as would
make it impossible for his successor to improve it ; while
every Government must know and feel that anradva,ntage
which it could derive from obliging friends and constituen-
cies, and conciliating individuals, was as nothing in the
scale compared with the credit and strength which it must
acquire from the efficient performance of the public service.
(Hear.) It must be the interest, as it was the duty, of every
Ministry so to conduct the business of the country as to be
most conducive to the public advantage. The reform of the
public departments was undoubtedly a matter which con'el
net be done without grave injury, much consideration, and
considerable time. It was easy to say consolidate offices, and
so save money and accelerate public busheesa; but, if they
united offices, the business of which is not of the same kind.
they would be joining things which were different in their
nature, and, instead of producing economy and dedpatch, they
would produce nothing but confusion and mistakes in the con-
duct of business. Thence it was necessary that they should
look out for businesses of the same kind, and by patting them
together they would secure unity of decision end despatch.
The Government had done that with re rar 1 to the Ordnance.
and he anticipated great advantages from the management of
that office. It would be then our duty to look into all the
other departments, and if they could find either that by con-
solidating offices now separate they could procure more unity
of direction, or that by any redistribution of business they
'oertrld affect any material economy,. they should consider them-
selves bound to pursue that course. (Hear.) He should be
glad, indeed, if the House of Commons *ere to evince a, die-
position to give more adequate remuneration to some of those
engaged iu the civil service of the country but it coald not
be forgotten that it was the hen. gentleman opnosite who
proposed, not long ago, that la per cent. should be taken
fro:n the insufficient salary of every clerk in the countryavith-
out regard to the special circumstances of each case. (Hear.)
In the meantime the Government accepted the proposal of
the honourable baronet the member for Hertfordshire as a
pledge on their pelt that they would turn their serious at-
tention to the continued revision of the different offices be-
longing to the civil service, and that any am aidment which
they could make, any admin'strative reform which they
might thick prUcticable, with advantage to the country and
with justice to the persons concerned, it should be their pride
and pleasure to adopt. (Cheers )
Mr. LINDSAY, who was received with cries of," oh," said
be rose to move the adjournment of the debate. (Cries of
"go on," and "divide.") His reason for making that motion
was. that the speech of the noble lord seemed to indicate that
ho thought everything perfect. (Cries of " oh, oh.") But
he had another and important reason. The house was aware
that, iu another- place, ho had made certain statements con-
nected with the maladministration of the Government. He
had been told that the G wernment intended to contradict
those state cents; but he had sat there patiently foe two
evenings vainly expecting the Government te do so. Now, as
those statements were very important, and as be wished to
repeat them in that house, he hope 1 the debate would be
adjourned. ICries of "no, no,'-and "go on.") He was en-
tirely in the bands of the house, but ho .thought it would be
more convenient, an he bad still more iinporiant statements
to make- statements which would show the Government the
necessity of a thel.ou'r,li a lminitrative r3forin, if the debate
were to be adjourned. (Cries of "g 3 on," and "divide.")
Admiral BERKELEY said that he, too, had waited there
all the evening in the hope that the honourable gentleman'
would rise in his place, and' repeat the statements which he
thought proper to make at Drury-lane. (Hear, hear.) Ho
did not think it becoming to the house to take notice of any
such virulent untruths. (Cries of "order, order," and
cheers.) Ho was prepared when the honourable gentleman
repeated those statements in that house, where ho was
supposed to speak upon the character and honour of a
'representative of the peoele; to tell him to his face that what
lie asserted was not founded on fact. (A laugh.)
Mr. OTWAY, who rose an id cries of " Oh," said he was
sorry to see that the gallant admiral differed so essentially
from the noble lord at the head of the Government as to the
propriety of answering the statements made elsewhere. The
noble lord had not thought it beneath him to reply to certain
remarks of the hon. member for Aylesbury at Drury-lane ;
but the gallant admiral, using tering ao c turteous and Par-
liamentary, had not considered itaight to reply to-the obser-
vations of the hon. member for Teignmonth. (Hear) But
as that hon. gentlemen had statiel that he was ready to briny
still heavier charges against the Gin'ernment, bad the gallant
admiral declared that he wished nothing better :than an oP,'
portunity of meeting those accusations? (Hear.) It appeared
to him (Hr. Otway) that the debate must be adjourned, not
only•fer the sake of those who wished-to _ speak upon a eab-
ject of present public interest, but even in justice to the
Government itself. (Hear.)
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment,
Against it
Majority

336
- -253

Mr. LAYARD then rose, and claimed the indulgence of the
house while ha said a few words,:not so times in reply as in
the way of explanation. Ile reTretted that the debate had not
been adjourned after the words Which had fallen from the hon,
and gallant, admiral, especially as the words were eertainly not
courteous, if, indeed, they were Parliamentary. The hon. and
gallant admiral hail used expressions which directly Ts
timed the veracity of his hon. friend (ltr Lindsay), and he
thought it was only fair that his hon, friend shrathl have
had an opportunity of replying to them. With ree.ard to Want
had fallen from the noble lard respecting the words which he
(Mr, Layard) eves reported to have spoken in another
and which were not, p. rhaps quite accurately reported, he
had this explanation to offer to thl house, that while the
hearts of the country weee rung, wire the deepest pain and
sorrow pervaded the laud, in that august assembly the noble
lord more than once rose in his place, when subjects of grave
and serious matter were in debate, and treated them with
levity—(" no, no," and " hear, hear,")—but he trusted that
the tone of the noble lord hid improved. (Lar,hter.) With
respect to what had been said he an hen, member (Mr. F. L.
Gower) in reference to 11,s olservatious remrding Earl .Gran-
tulle, he (Mr. Layard) begged to say Cut he did not intend
to make any reflection on that noble lor 1; on the contrary,
; what he had said was intended to exculpate him from any
such charge. .He was sorry to find that his words, having
been misinterpreted, had given pain to any gallant officer
and he wished to explain that, when he spoke of the officers
in command of the artillery, he did net allude to Erigadier-
General Strangways or to Brigadier-General Daeres. his ob-
servations having reference to the officer in command of the
artillery at lukerman. lie had not the slightest intentinn
to cast a personal reflectios on those who were concerned,
and he was willing to leave the matter as it stood between
him and the Under-Secretary of War to the.judgment of the
house, It etas said he had never asked . for returns ; but
he had asked for returns a few weeks ago, and there was no
use in it, because one, neve • got them; and if ho had got
the return ho asked for it would strengthen the case
he had brought before the bowie. On referring to the re-
turn laid on the table respecting the officers who. had dis-
tinguished themselves in. the Crimea, it would be found
that it perfectly agreed wit's the statements that he
(Mr. Layard) had made to the house, and if any more officers
had been since promoted he should be glad to see their u moe
laid upon the table. With regard to the appointmeut of offi-
cers on the staff, he did not say officers so appointed 'should
be provided with a certificate from Sandhurst ; what he had
said was, that they should be edne fed at a place recogn:sed
for that Purpose. In reference to what had been said re-
specting the appointment of his brother on the staff, he begged
to offer the following explanation :—Coloucl Dixon wished to
place his brother on the staff as an interpreter, because he
was perfectly acquainted with the French and Italian lan-
guages, and ho frequently asked him (Mr. Layard) to men-
tion his brother at head-quarters. He refused to do so, but
on the day he was leaving the camp he saw Colonel Steele, and
they were talking about an interpreter. Ho said his brother
spoke French and Italian perfectly well and why not employ
him, and afterwards he saw. that he was placed on the staff.
-He had another brother who filled a government situation in

the island of Ceylon ; Le was in'excejlingly bad he•ilth, .and
a memorial was signed hyt,isty men of science in favour of

his removal to New Zealand. The memorial was supported by
the lion, members for Leamington and Merthyr Tydvil ; but
he (;dr. Llyard) refused to have anything to do with the me-
morial, and the Duke of Newcastle declined to do anything
in the matter. He thought the noble lord had fallen into an
error when he said that all consul-generalships were given
to consuls. Not one of them had been consuls except in one
ease, where lately a consul had been appointed consul-general
at Beyrout. He (Mr. Layard) bad used th e word "scandalons,"
and it was understood that that word was applicable to Lord
Harding() personally. Ho regretted that any person should
suppose that he intended to apply that word to Lord Hardinge
personally, and if the expression had giVen pain to' any per-
son in that house, he begged to retract that expression.
The house then d vided. The numbers were
For the original re501uti0n............
• ' Against it... .................... ' .....
Majority against it.
•

The SPEAKER then put the question ou Sir.... .
...........
E. B. Lytton's
amendment, now become the main question.
Mr. W..S. LINDSAY—I rise to move the adjournment of
the debate. lam sure, after what has passed this evening,
especially after the §tateraento of tho bon, and gallant officer,