The Sun.
London, England, 1855-08-04 00:00:00

TURKISH LOAN BILL.

The Earl of CLARENDON moved the second read-
ing of this bill, with the understanding that any debate
on its merits might be taken at a future stage. Their
lordships were aware that the measure had given rise to
innch discussion elsewhere, to objections which he must
take the liberty to characterise as unfounded, and to
alarms which appeared to him to be greatly exaggerated.
He hoped, however, in a few words to show that it had
not been unnecessary, and that her Majesty's Govern-
ment, in agreeing- to the convention, had only acted in
accordance with the general feeling of the country, which
had been so faithfully rerresented in their lordship's house,
namely, that the hostilities should be carried on with the
utmost possible vigour and effect. (Hear.) England aiel
France had made great efforts arid great sacrifices in
rdrr to conduct a war which they considered to be
just and necessary, and which had been forced upon
them by the ambitious policy and the aggressive de-
signs of Russia. Turkey, on her part, had not only
made a gallant stand, but had given proof of air ability and
a devoted patriotism which had astonished even those
who had placed the greatest reliance upon her powers
of resistance. These efforts, by which she had been
abie to equip and to maintain in the field an army
of 180,000, had however been attended with unavoid-
able results. Turkey, like England and France—but
net sooner than Evgland and France—had found her
ordinary revenues insufficient for the great struggle iii
which she was engaged. She hail therefore determine I
to do, what she had never done before except in a single
instance, t) make a loan. In giving effect to that de-
termination the Turkish Government acted in a marlin r
which did them great credit. They did not appeal to
the generosities of their allies ; they asked neither for
loan nor subsidy. Ali that they did ask for was merely a
certificate thatthe agents of the Sultan were really autho-
rised to negotiate the loan. The loan was five millions,
hot the sum realised on the first instalment of 3,000,000/.
was only 2,400,0001., without deducting expenses or
commission, and the net sum that actually found its way
into the treasury of the Porte was only 1,800,0001.
When that money was expended her Majesty's Govern-
ment found, on inquiry, that it would be impassible for
Turkey to raise from the remaining two millions a sum
sufficient to enable her t ) become an effective ally to the
Western Powers. That was the consideration which weigh-
ed with her Majesty's Government and with the Empera r
of France—it was not sympathy or admiration for the
efforts which she was so gallantly makiug—it was solely
because her cause was our cause ; but while England
and France were fighting the. battle of Turkey, it was
absolutely necessary that Turkey should herself take a
part in the struggle. (Hear, hear ) Ile felt almost
ashamed to allude to the quibbles put forth by the op-
ponents of the bill, and he felt that, especially in their
lordships' house, where they had been accustomed to
hear on all sides such well-merited encomiums upon our
ally, there would be ample security for the repayment of
the loan. The French had a high sense of honour
whether as regarded their international engagements
or their commercial arrangements, and there could be no
fear as to their being ready to fulfil their part of the
treaty. (Cheers ) The Turkish Government had no
foreign debt, except the loan of 3,000,0001., which they
had recently made. When he reminded the house that
the Turkish Government were ready to accept the aid of
French and English experience in the expenditure of the
money, so that it might really be applied to the purposes
of the war, he trusted that their lordships would consent
to the arrangement, and give the bill a second reading.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that this
was the first time ho had heard that any of the persons
who objected to the bill had impugned the good faith
and honour of the Turkish Government.

The Earl of CLARENDON had merely wished to say
that the objection to former guarantees had appeared to
rest mainly on that argument.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH believed there were
very few of those who had opposed the bid that objected
to give assistance to Turkey for the purpose of carrying
on this war. There might have been some, but there
were, he repeated, very few such amongst those who
had voted against the measure in the other house. For
his own part, he hal no such,feeling. It was now six-
teen months since he had privately suggested to the
Duke of Newcastle the propriety of giving pecuniary aid
to Turkey, to enable her to concentrate her army on
Erzerouiu. Nor was he at all hostile to the principle of
subsidies: It was only to the occasional misapplication
of that principle that objections had been taken. For
what was that principle ? It was this, namely, that it
was expedient to put in motion, by giving pecuniary as-
sistance, a very much larger force of natives of the coun-
try with which we were allied than we could produce
of our own. It was by a system of subsidies alone
that that great measure, the emancipation of Europe,
had been achieved. It would be specially expedient
to resort to such a system at the present moment,
when we were placed by the defection of Austria in
a position inferior to that which we occupied at
the commencement of the war. It was of the greatest
possible importance that • we should enable Turkey to
provide herself with a large and disciplined army, and
that we should fortify the Bosphorus and Constantinople.
If we were to make Constantinople another Sebastopol
we should have a much better security fcr the indepen-
dence of Turkey than we were likely to obtain by any
settlement on the basis of the third point. It was not
simply with the present French government that we
should be concerned. The loan must remain, even if the
sinking fund were regularly paid, for 40 years to come ;
and during the last 40 years there had been in France
four dynasties and tone republic. In the last 28 years
there had also been 13 governments in this country ; and
he did not know how many more there might be in the
next three. No doubt a certain degree of stability had
been given to 10 of those 13, by the fact that Lord Pal-
merston had belonged to them all, but the difficulty of en-
tering into an arrangement like the one proposed was
much increased by the want of a fixed and settled policy
not only in France but in our own country. (Hear.) If
he wished to divide two friends, be could not take a
more likely mode of doing it than by making them joint
guarantees for a man who was not likely to pay. The
defection of Austria had been the cause of the necessity
of assisting Turkey at the present moment. It was very
remarkable that, from the commencement of the differ-
ences between Russia and Turkey, there was a eoesr,
tendency to the approximation of Austria to he
..
Wes-
tern Powers up to December 2, but from a period
shortly bubsequed to that there bad been a s t t

tendency to divergence on her part from the policy of
the allies. So great a change must have had some cause.
Previous to the 2d of December, Austria well knew the
difficulties that beset the English and French armies in
the Crimea ; she knew of the fatal field of Ealaklavn, of
the destructive conquest at Inkerman, of the hurricane
of the 14th of Nov., of the absolute necessity of remain•
ing for, the winter in the Crimea. Our military affairs

were then at the worst. He did not think that that di-
vergence could have arisen from any discovery of her own
financial state. Count Buol was then the Foreign Mi-
nister of Austria, and he was so still. He did not think
Austria had attained all she could desire by the first and
second points. Ile was satisfied that until the Princi-
palities were, by a treaty with all the great powers of
Europe, made a central State, Germany had not all the
security she could attain, nor would she have security
until she got a scrap of territory on the left of the
Danube. Could they not see that it was the third
point which secured the other two, and that so long as
they gave to Russia power in the Black Sea, it was idle
to expect from Russia an adherence to the first and se-
cond points. He trusted that these gentlemen would
recover the understanding that German statesmen had
in former times, that the nation would recover the mi-
litary spirit it had in former times, and that it would
not allow itself to be surrendered and destroyed like a
fly in the toil of a spider. There was another point,
and that was our military position as compared with
what it was on the 2d of December. There had
been a pulling down and a subsequent reconstruction
of the war department. He had before taken objection
to the manner in which that operation had been per-
formed. He thought it would have been wiser to have
confined themselves to giving the Secretary-at-War ab-
solute authority over the inferior departments, and not
in a hurry to have made material alterations in the great
departments. The Secretary for War had now on his
shoulders all the duties of tie Secretary. at War, of the
Commissary-General, and of_ the Master-General of the
Ordnance.

The noble lord had left hirnkelf without the

military instrments with which alone the war depait-
manta could be conducted, and which it was per-
fectly impossible for civilians to Control with understand.
ing. Except the Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary
of State for War, the noble lord had no military man
whatever with whom he could have official communica-
tion. Then, what had the noble lord done with
regard to the regular army ? He came down suddenly
one day, and told the house that he had de-
termined to give a prospective shilling to each
man, which was to be put into the savings bank and
paid when the man left the service. In about a week
the noble lord threw over altogether the prospective
shilling, arid, instead, he gave a present sixpence ; that
was, he said he would give it, but to this hour there had
been no proclamation to that effect, and he knew that
the paymaster would not pay sixpence on a speech
of the noble lord's. (Laughter.) Therefore he appre-
hended that at the present moment the addition of six-
pence had not taken effect. It was a serious matter to
trifle in this way with the army. The army in front of
Sebastopol at the present moment, if it were in the
field, and had the means of moving, would beat any
army which Russia, or he believed all the states of
Europe, could bring against it. There was nothing
that could resist an army of 170,000 men, composed as
it was, and capable, when once in the field, of obtain-
ing the assistance of 35,000 Turks. There were 200,000
men, a larger army than had ever engaged in any battle,
not only in the memory of man, but, unless they
believed in the exazgerattons of historians, had ever
engaged in times of antiquity. There was the finest
army in the world, utterly lost, unable to move. From
six weeks to six weeks there was a bombardment, and
then there was some fatal assault, and the progress made
was very little. There was no one at the present mo-
meat who could reasonably look forward to anything
but the continuance of that army in the Crimea during
another winter. He looked with very serious apprehen-
sion upon this state of things, not merely as affecting,
our military reputation, but as affecting at no great dis-
tance of time the state of public feeling in this country,
and the position of all men engaged in the management
of public affairs. When they met again in November,
the noble lord opposite and his colleagues might still
have retained their position, but unless there was a very
material change in their military prospects they might
depend upon it the first operation of the House of Com-
mons would be to put them out as it put out Lord Aber-
deen.

Lord PANMIIRE said he concurred in many of the
remarks of the noble earl, but from some of them he
must take the liberty to differ, and particularly, that in
discussing this matter in another place, doubts had been
thrown on the good faith of the French government. The
noble lord had stated, that although some improvement
had taken place in the condition of our :Leroy since last
December, our affairs were not in as satisfactory a con-
ditien as he could wish, and he also alluded to the state
of the militia. It was quite true, that owing to the un-
fortunate wording of the act of Parliament, many regi-
ments were not now in the service of the country, but
these men were not discharged, but were bbund when
called upon to perform their 5(3 days' service. But with
regard to recruiting, he must say that, consideting the
state of trade the spirit of the youth of this (tout:try was
beyond praise. At this moment they were recruiting' at the
rate of not less than GO,OOO ayear, a number tar exceeding
any that was attained during the last war, and it was
attained without auycotnpulsoryettlistment whatever, the
ballot for the militia never having been put in force. lie
had the strongest objections to the ballot, and be thought
that instead of' adding to the desire of the young men to
engage in the service of the Queen, it would have a con-
trary effect. He would rather encourage volantaty
efforts than have recourse to the compul cry method of
enlisting men either for the army or the navy. With
reference to the position of affairs in Asia, he regrettea
them as much as the noble earl did, but he shoul,f have
some hesitation, considering the difficulties to which it
would expose her Majesty's troops, in placing them in
that part of Asia. The polite earl had threatened her
Majesty's Government in the month of Novernder with
a visitation of public opinion. When that visitation
came upon them, he, for ono, would endeavour to meet
it, confident that he bad done Wane lay within biro to
protect the forces of her Majesty in their present arduous
ervice, by looking forwam d to secure fur them io case they
remained another winter in the Crimea the means of I
escaping of many of the difficulties which were un-
avoidable last winter. By having ollected together all
the supplies that any army could require, whether in '
the shape of food for men or forage for the horses, or in
the provision of any kind whatever, he should be pre-
pared to meet that vaitation of public opinion with the
fell consciousness of having done in this matter all that
was possible for him to do at present. The defalcations
in the military stores of this country would have been
somewhat alarming, had he not been able to find in the
department of the Ordnance men by whose energy all
difficulty had been cleared away. In the departments
of the Ordnance he had men on whose skill and
ability he could rely, and thought that from their
experience he could derive all the information he re-
quired. When he said that in all matters regarding the
fortifications of the country he could refer to Sir John
Burgoyne, that in matters relating to the army ho
could refer to Gen. Cater, and that in the manufacture
of munitions he could refer to Col. We:ford, Col. Tower
(as was understood) and Capt. Boxer, he was perfectly
justified in carrying on the operations of that depart•
went, in full reliance on the officers and©r him. There
was one matter of detail referred to by the noble earl
which he (Lord Panmure) must not forget to speak of,
and that was the extra field allowance about to be
granted to the army. He would state with regard to that
field allowance, that it did not require any proclamation
t a carry it into effect ; but it would have to be done
simply by means of a royal warrant issued to the proper
officers. That warrant would be submitted to her Ma-
jesty for signature within a day or two, and it would
take effect from the Ist of July. It would of course be
announced to the army, but not before her Majesty
should have signed it.
The Earl of HARDWICKE complained that her
Majesty's Government were disposed, in both houses of
Parliament, to throw back upon some party opposed to
them the blame of having made imputations against the
honour and good faith of our great ally. He would
repudiate in the strongest manner, on the part of his
friends, any such intention ; they felt only the most
earnest and thorough confidence in the honour of the
French nation and Emperor; but such sentiments were
always to be left out of sight in pecuniary transactions,
where securities and documents were required. As for
the general conduct of the war, he concurred with *hat
had been said by his noble friend the (the Earl of Ellen-
borough.) Why had not Odessa been attacked, and Ni-
colaielf, where the Russians had their great shipbuilding
yards ? Why was not a reconnaissance attempted there ?
The siege of Sebastopol would be much assisted if our
fleet were to shell the town from time to time ; or even
if some of our colliers and small vessels had a few 13 inch
mortars placed on board, they might approach near
enough at night to throw shells into Sebastopol. In the
Baltic, he had never thought that against the Russian
stone fortresses any great maritime operation could be
successfully performed, but we did not even hear of
such common guerilla operations as might have been
performed by our gun-boats. The dismissal of our late
admirals, and the extensive preparations, had led the
public to expect improperly some great achievements in
the Baltic this year, but hitherto they bad been disap-
pointed. What had come of those prodigious inventions
which were to grind the enemy's walls to powder ?
Where were the ironsided ships of which we had heard
so much ? He believed they were still at Sheerness ;
they had turned out, as he thought they would, unsafe
and useless, and so far from being taken into the Black
Sea or the Baltic, it was doubtful whether they could
e
be safely taken round the North Foreland. Now, he
wished the Government to adapt their means to a
they proposed. If it was a blockade which they
intended
within
to keep up, so as to shut up the Russiane
fleets
their ports, and to be able to fight the Russians
money be
Russians when
they came out, then let not the Pe
ex-
pended in a set of armaments utterly useless
of money. In
and ridicu-
lous, and which cost an enormous m
the Baltic, he thought a war of blockade would be the
soundest policy ; but in the Black Sea the case was dif-
ferent, and there be would collainst Nicol all. the
aeff and inforce the
ec
iflo tilla
that could be spared, to act Ag
Putrid Sea, and Sea of Azoff, and not to leave a town
stones
mig hs ttalnedl inny
puopnoint
tohneaeetrsif anothert
theyhee
or a bridge, or two
there. The government
would not under-
put the means into the hands of our naval officers,
was nothing our fleets) and gunboats
take, and scarcely- anything which they would fail to
perform.
Earl GRANVILLE said he did not think much good
was derived from discussing our present military opera-
tions in that house, and it was impossible for any mem-
ber of the government to go into the questions which had
now been raised. The noble earl had asked why certain
things had not been done. To some of his questions he
. (Earl Granville) had a perfectthat answer, but answer
he could not give. (Hear, hear.) To other questions
he had not the slightest idea what the answer was? but

he had a perfect conviction that good reasons did exist
for the course which had been followed, and that it was
not any want of energy, foresight, or courage, that pre-
vented Admiral Dundas and Sir EclmundLyons from
doing- what the noble earl suggested. But when the
noble earl mysteriously and darkly alluded to some im-
pediments which prevented those gallant admirals from
doing what they might have done, he (Earl Granville)
would ask the noble earl whether he could venture to
say that, in his belief, anything which came from her
Majesty's Government—any views of theirs, or any in-
structions they gave—had thrown any such impediment
in the way of the admirals doing what they might have
thought it advisable to do ? To quit the subject of naval
and military operations, he (Earl Granville) had cer-
tainly heard with heartfelt satisfaction the noble earls
both disclaim the idea that the arguments used by any
party against this bill could convey a reflection upon the
honour of the French empire. He accepted that dis-
claimer with much pleasure, and he had only been led to
think such a reflection might be cast, by some of the ar-
guments used in another place, where an apprehension
was expressed of the possibility of the French nation, in
consequence of a change of government, or of other cir-
cumstances, refusing to fulfil its engagements.
The bill was then read a second time, and their lord•
ships adjourned at a quarter before eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock.

LORDS' AMENDMENTS.

The Lords' Amendments to the following bills were
considered and agreed to :—The Great Western and
Brentford Railway, Stokes Bay Railway and Pier, and
Westminster Improvements.