The Sun.
London, England, 1855-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENII446-4 JULY 21.

after which no drainage should go into the river Thames,
and that time was five years after next December. (Hear.) I
was than odd a third time.
Mr. H; BARING h 1....1g1u up elausu for the purpse
t'ie chairman of the Metropolitan Board fi•ora
f-louse of Co
Lord R. GROSVE VO a obj uttc i to
indivi ,ual from the house, who might bo able to throw
light upon difficult subjects, and hoped his hon. friend
would not persist in urging the adoption of the clause.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought it would be of great impor-
tance to have the chairman of the board in the house.
Viscount EBRINGTON considered that the presence of
the chairman in the house would lead to inconvenience by
a great deal of time being taken up in asking him ques-
tions.
Mr. PERCY said that when they took into considera-
tion the various duties the chairman of the board would
have to perform, it must be apparent that he could not
have time to attend to his duties as a member of that house.
Sir B. HALL sincerely hoped that the house would not
agree to the proposition that had been made by his hon.
friend.
Mr. HENLEY saw no reason for excluding the chair-
man of the board when the Lord Mayor of London was
allowed to have a seat in the house.
Mr. BARING, seeing the feeling of the house was
against him, begged to withdraw his clause.
On the motion of Sir B. HALL four new clauses were
adopted and added to the bill in the following order ; the
first was introduced after clause 83, the second after clause
128, the third after clause 230, and the fourth after clause
235. •
A motion of Viscount EBRINGTON for the omission of
clause 6 was opposed by Sir B. HALL, and negatived.
Viscount EBRINGTON proposed an alteration in clause
7, for the purpose of removing a ground of objection
respecting which he had received communications from
several persons of property. It was proposed by the
clause that the existing vestry, elected for a totally
different purpose, and under a perfectly different system
of voting, should continue for two years practi-
cally to have the management of the affairs of the
parishes in their hands. Some of the wealthiest districts
were at present totally unrepresented, and yet it was pre-
posed to put the repairs of hundreds of miles of streets, and
the drainage of whole districts, under the control of this
body. In conclusion he moved the omission of certain
words from the clause, and the insertion of others to get
rid of the objectionable part of it.
Sir B. HALL said the effect of the noble lord's amend-
ment would be to require the four parishes of the metro-
polis under the operation of Hobhouse's Act should go again
to an election of vestrymen immediately aftpr the passing
of the act, though the vestrymen elected in May last were
chosen under the understanding that they would have to
carry into effect the provisions of a similar bill. He had
reason to believe, from the constant communication he had
had with the inhabitants of these parishes that objections
to the clause were entertained only in individual cases, and
that they were framed iu accordance with the sentiments
generally prevailing.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the noble lord had taken up
ground on this bill totally at variance with the opinions
and feelings of his constituents.
After some further conversation the amendment was
negatived.
A number of verbal amendments were made in different
clauses, and the bill passed.
TURKISH LOAN. -

The house then went into committee of the whole house;
Mr. Fitzroy in the chair.
Viscount PALMERSTON rose to move the following re-
solution :—" That it is the opinion of this committee, that
her Majesty be authorised to guarantee the payment of the
interest on the loan of five millions sterling, to be contracted
• for by his Imperial Majesty the Sultan, in pursuance of the
Convention signed at London on the 27th day of June, 1855,
between her Majesty, his Majesty the Emperor of the French,
and his Imperial Majesty the Sultan, andthat provision be
made out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom,
or the growing produce thereof, for the issue of such sums
of money from time to time as may be required to pay any
interest which may at any time be required to fulfil the
guarantee of her Majesty in respect of such interest, con-
formably to the teuour of her Majesty's engagement, as spe-
cified in the said Convention, together with the attending
charges of management thereon." The noble viscount
said—The convention on which this resolution is founded
was entered into by the two allied Governments with Tur-
key in accordance with and in fulfilment of those common
views which have actuated the two Governments and the
people of the two countries with respect to the war in
which we are now engaged. That war was undertaken for
the defence, present and future, of Turkey, and it was the
opinion of all those who have concurred in the justice and
policy of the war that it ought to be prosecuted with all the
vigour and energy which the resources of the several parties
admit of being employed. No doubt great efforts have been
made, and will continue to be made, by the Governments
of England and France, and for that purpose large armies
have been sent, and great fleets have been fitted out,
and stationed in the two seas, the Euxine and the
Baltic. But it is manifest that the exertions of
the two countries could not be attended with those
results which we are entitled to aim at, and which are
essential to the accomplishment of the objects for which
the war is undertaken, unless the eflbrts of those
two countries, comparatively distant as they are, cad be
efficiently seconded by the efforts of the country itself
most nearly and deeply interested in the contest. Every-
body is aware of what I may call the noble struggle which
Turkey has made in this war, the great and successful
efforts of her army during the greater part of a twelve-
mouth in defending the northern frontier of her territory.
The success and magnitude of those efforts exceeded, I be-
lieve, the expectation of almost all those persons who had
turned their attention before to the resources of Turkey.
There were few persons who believed that there was
amongst the Turkish nation that feeling of enthusiastic
devotion to the cause of thoir country which had been ex-
hibited by the Turks in this war, or that there was in the
Turkish army that power of combination and resistance
which was manifested by the army under the command of
Omer Pasha on the Danube. There were few persons who
believed that the Turkish empire had financially or mate-
rially those ample resources for war which had been re-
quired and furui shed hitherto in the course of the contest. It
had been foretold that her resources must inevitably prove
deficient in the ability to sustain a protracted contest, and
especially that her finances might fail to supply the de-
mand of the troops upon them. They, however, have made
great exertions hitherto ; and, to a great extent, the troops
have been supplied out of the ordinary revenues of Turkey.
But it is no disparagement to the Turkish empire to say that
her ordinary resources are not equal to the great and impor-
tant struggle in which she is engaged, because that happens
in all countries engaged in war. It happens here, it happens
in France, and, from the information we receive, we believe
that in Russia the difference between the ordinary revenue
and the war expenditure is greater than even in England
and France. We have been informed, and I believe on good
authority, that whereas the ordinary revenue of Russia
amounts to about 30,000,000/. sterling, hat the expenses of
the war have certainly equalled, if they have not surpassed,
double that amount. The ordinary revenues of Turkey
amount to about ten millions sterling. In the course of the
last year they were obliged to resort to a loan to increase
their available means. A. loan was negotiated, nominally
intended to be five millions, but of which I believe be-
tween two and three millions have been realised —a sum
not sufficient for the wants of the Turkish Government
And they have put it to the English and French Govern-
ments that unless additional means are found to defray the
expenses of the current military and naval services of Tur-
key they would come to a stand, and that it would be im-
Ipossible for Turkey out of her ordinary revenue to find the
means to defray the necessary and indispensable expenses
of the war. The subject has been long and seriously con-
sidered by the English and Fiench Governments. We
felt that, while making great exertions in favour of
Turkey, if we allowed the very body we wished to sup-
port to fall to pieces for want of internal resources, we
should be defeating the object we had in view, and ren-
dering fruitless all the great efforts we were making in
their support ; that, unless the Turkish Government were
supplied with the means of supporting their own
army, it would be in vain for England and France to send
an army to defend their territory. Then came the
question. How was that additional supply to be given ?
There were two different ways in which that assistance
might be afforded. The two Governments might have had
recourse to that system which this country resorted to in
the last war, by furnishing a subsidy to the power whom
we intended to assist. That, of course, was not considered
expedient either by the Fiench Government or by the
English. There are many objections to that course, both in
regard to the party who is to furnish the subsidy and to
the real interests of the party to whom that subsidy w as to
be granted. If you wish that a power should have real vita-
lity, you must teach that power to rely as far as possible
on its own resources, and if temporary assistance is to be
required it should be given as much as possible on the
means and responsibility of the party who is to receive that
extraordinary aid. We therefore thought it expedient to
give a subsidy to Turkey. We thought the best way in
which we could aid Turkey was to give her the assistance
of the credit of France and England by guaranteeing a loan,
the interest and sinkingfund of which should be paid out of
the revenue of Turkey herself. Then came the question
whether, taking the amount which the Turkish Govern-
ment thought it desirable to raise at five millions, the two
Governments should each guarantee half that sum, or
whether the two Governments should jointly guarantee
the whole amount, taking an engagement as between
themselves practically to take their share half and half of
the liability, supposing that to arise. Undoubtedly the
former method is that which the British Government first
thought of, and perhaps it is that most in accordance with
the habits and views of this country, and more in confor-
mity with the precedent of former cases of the same kind.
But the French Government laid great stress on itspreference
of the latter method—namely, that which has been adopted;
and we thought, under the circumstances of the case, and
considering the right of France to have an opinion on the
matter, that as the arrangement would come to the same
result in the one case as in the other, we were bound so
far to defer to the wish of the French Government as to
adopt the system of a joint guarantee. The question is— What
is the probability that Turkey, out of her own resources,
will be able to pay in future the amount which will become
due as interest on the loan and on account of the sinking
fund ? And I think there is every reasonable expectation
that Turkey will have ample means to make good that en-
g igen:lent, without throwing any real and practical burthen
on the finances (f her two allies. The resources of Tui key
are infinitely greater than have been yet developed. She
has resources of commerce which are annually iucreasiug,
and under happier circumstances, no doubt, will be very
materially and extensively developed. The Turkish terri-
tories contain mines of every kind—mines of metal and
coal that only require to be worked to produce ample re-
sources to the Government of that country, and it is to be
hoped that other improvements will take place that will
tend to develops the natural resources of the country. Un-
fortunately it has been the case in Turkey that, whenever
its Government wished to make any material improvement
in the internal arrangements calculated to give additional
strength to the institutions of the country, or add to its
resources financial or defensive, that the influence of Rus-
sian agency has interposed, and, by means which were al-
ways at her command, have either totally paralysed the in-
tended action, or so crippled it as to prevent its producing
the result which might otherwise have been expected. It
is to be hoped that these influences will hereafter have less
power than they have heretofore exercised, and therefore
we hope that the engagements we ask the house to ratify,
will afford the Turkish Government the means of co-ope-
rating with the allies and of carrying on effectually the
contest in which we are ong.ged, and that, on the other
hand, there is no good reason to fear that in the end that
engagement will be productive of any financial burthen to
this country. The immediate security given is the avail-
able surplus of the tribute from Egypt. That, after provid-
ing for the interest and the sinking fund on account of the
loan of last year, will amount to 65,000/. a-year, for the pay-
ment of interest and the creation of a sinking fund for this
loan. Beyond that you have as security the entire revenue of
the Turkish empire, and arrangements will be made to secure
certain parts of that revenue, and to provide the means,
from time to time, of meeting the interest and the demands
of the sinking fund. It is the interest of the two Govern-

ments to make arrangements with the Turkish Govern-
ment, to which we anticipate noobstacleatConstmitinople,
to provido that t,rra,ug,o)oiti,s ho ramie which shall
yecure that the money so raised by loan for military 'For-
vicc is Ttil.key shut be applied to that military 591*Wieti,

that while ergaTreents are catered into on the one bard
to enable Till key ti raise money, that on the other hand
the Governments of England and France shall have the
certainty that the money shall be applied to the objects for
which it was raised. Now, considering the great import-
ance of the struggle in which we are engaged, and the ab-
solute necessity of furnishing the Turkish Government in
same way or other with the means of playing her part in
this great struggle, and considering also the results that
must ensue if the Turkish army were to fall to piecesfor want
of the ordinary means of keeping it together in a state of
efficiency, I cannot persuade myself that the house will not
be disposed to concur with her Majesty in the engagement
which this convention records, but will, by passing this
resolution in the first place, and then the bill that will be
founded upon it, afford her Majesty the means of making
good the engagement contingently contracted on the under-
standing that this house will assist her in making good t hat
sum. I believe that the feeling which is universal in this
house and in the country, that every effort should be made
for carrying on the war with the vigour that must lead to
success, will induce honourable gentlemen to consider this
as one of the most indispensable measures for the attainment
of that object, and that therefore I shall obtain the sanc-
tion of the house to the resolution I have now, sir, placed
in your hands.
kr. RICARDO said that when he recollected we were
by this loan entering into the old system of subsidies which
now weighed so heavily on the nation, and when he saw by a
return obtained by the late Mr. Hume that the amount of
subsidies granted during the late war, in the twenty years
previous to 1816, was no less than 58 millions., he must vote
against the proposition of the noblejlord, unless he was shown
some immediate and imperative reason for having recourse
to this system. It was a singular instance of the proof of
the way in which this system worked that no less a sum than
nine millions and a half of the subsidies granted during the
late war were given to Russia. It was clear that if that
subsidy had not been given her powers of aggression must
now have been materially less. When we granted the
Greek loan we took a different course. That loan of two
millions and a half was given to the king we had appointed.
There were then three guaranteeing powers. Did we give
a joint guarantee ? No ; each power guaranteed its own
portion, and therefore on the failure of the Greek Govern-
ment to pay the interest, we had only to pay our own share
of the loss ; nor had we had any quarrels on that account
with any other of the guaranteeing powers. But might that
be the case on the system of a joint guarantee? Suppose
that a change should take place in the Government of
France, and that the new Government should refuse to pay
their share of the interest of the loan, not only might we
be obliged to pay the whole interest, but we might be in-
volved in endless quarrels and difficulties with France. He
did not wonder that France wished for a joint guarantee,
because in that case it was olear that the English credit
became that on which the whole loan was granted. When
a mercantile man saw two names on the back of a bill of
exchange, he did not care for the second name if he sat the
first was a good one. It was the highest credit that ruled
the market. The great question, however, for them to con-
sider was whether this guarantee was absolutely necessary.
He believed the House of Commons was quite ready to
grant the Chancellor of the Exchequer all the means ueces-
sary for carrying on the war, but he thought they ought to
pause before they undertook to pay the expenses of another
nation as well as ourselves. They ought to have the clearest
proof of the necessity of the case. It was true that the noble
lord assured the house that there was not the slightest risk
of our being called upon to pay a sixpence of this interest,
because the whole revenue of Turkey was pledged to us
as a security. Well the noble lord gave precisely the same
assurance in 1832, when the Greek loan was in course of
negotiation. But did Greece how pay the interest of that
loan ? It was clear that it Turkey could pay us the inte-
rest of the loan out of her resources there was no reason
why she should not pay the public their interest on the
loan without guarantee, and why they should not trust her
on this security. Indeed Turkeyhad actually raised money
at a high price. The last loan now stood at 9 in the mar-
ket, and he had been told by a gentleman that he had of-
fered to take the remaining `4. millions of the last loan at
83, and that he knew a French bauking.house who were
ready to advance it at 81$. That showed that she •could
raise money herself. He granted it would be at a high rate
of interest. But he did not see why we should stop forward
at the beginning of the struggle to assist Turkey in her first
difficulties. He believed we had had, up to the present mo-
ment, an outlay exceed ingin extravagance the late war. The
House of Commons had absolutely placed no check on expen-
diture; and all who wished to secure the 'least prudence in the
management of the finances had been accused of starving
the war. Now, he certainly thought that these matters
should be more closely looked to. Why, the other night
the Minister of War told the House of Lords that he was
about to double the pay of the army in the Crimea, and
that without the least communication with that house.
Then, again, the Cuemceller of the Exchequer told the
house in the most careless manner. and only in answer to
a casual question, that he had exceede l the estimates for
the year, and should present supplemental estimates. And
with respect to this h an., the first they knew of it was that
a communication had ueen laid before the French Cham-
bers stating that we were to guarantee half of this Turkish
subsidy. That was not the way in which they ought to be
treated. He should certainly divide the house against the
resolution. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the guarantee, and said that, though it was a joint one:,of
the two Governments over the whole loan, yet France and
England had entered into an agreement between them-
selves by which, in case of their being called on, each
would be responsible for her own share of the debt.
Mr. GLA.DSTONE said this measure opened a ques-
_ _

tion which the people of England had ever regarded with
mistrust, suspicion, and jealousy. He did not dispute the
principle that we might in case of necessity lend direct
pecuniary aid to our ally ; but then that necessity must
be clearly shown, and he did not think that had been done
in the present case, He did not see much difference be-
tween a subsidy and a guarantee ; he objected to guaran-
tees as much is to subsitlie3, and fhe objected to guaran-
tees in general, he objected most strongly to the present
guarantee, which was joint and several between France and
England. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was a
private arrangement between France and England, by
which each look its own share of responsibility. But
that did not eppear on the face of the treaty, and he fore-
saw endless political difficulties in connection with
it. Suppose the war were over, that the interest
was not paid by Turkey, that France was of opinion Tur-
key could pay and England was of opinion she could not,
who was to settle the difference ? He showed the difference

between this guarantee and the direct and open loan made
by this country to Sardinia, and while he admitted that
the house had nothing to do with making treaties, they had
to do with ratifying them ' • and he fur one could not agree
to ratify this loan, founded as it was oit the principles of
which Mr. Pit; and the men of his generation would have
been ashamed.
Lord PALKERSMON said the only difference between

Mr. Gladstone and himself, so far as he could perceive, was
whether there should be a guarantee or a' irect loan, or
even a subsidy. As to the political difficulties which the
right hon. gentleman apprehended from our jointguarantee
with France, he stated that political difficulties had risen
out of the separately guaranteed loan to Greece, for the
other guaranteeing parties had protested against England
taking steps to recover her share from Greece.
Mr. DISRAELI—Without doubt, sir, this is one of the
most, important questions which has occupied the attention
of Parliament this session, and the circumstances of this
loan are such that the public mind ought to be directed to
it. lam not prepared to say that the loan which has been
already made to Sardinia was impolitic, and the arrange-
ments made with regard to it were perhaps as unobjection-
able as arrangements of the kind could be; but I must s.ty
that it was a subject which deserved greater consideration
from the house than it received. We have now a much
larger proposition, in a form very different, and in a shape
which ought to make the committee pause before it agrees
to it. The noble lord at the head of the Government, has
dwelt upon the point that this is not a subsidy, but a loan.
Lord PALMERSTON —A ;oan to 133 raised by Turkey.
Mr. DISRAELI—Yes, and the noble lord recommends
it to the committee, on the ground that the immediate bur-
den cannot be felt by the country; but I can make no dif-
ference in a country like England between national credit
and national capital. (Rear, hear.) If England guarantees
a loan, I cannot admit that we can consider it a liability
which we may not be called upon to discharge. (Hear.)
, If the security offered by Turkey were of the least, objec-
tionable nature, I should say that we should regard our
, liability in the same light; and if the security to be given
, by Turkey be really of the nature described by the noble
lord, I do not think she would be an unsuccessful applicant
in the markot where nations are in the halit of negotiating
loans of this sort. But I confess I look with an eye of
some incredulity on the resources of Turkey, and upon her
means of discharging this liability. The noble lord says
that he has no doubt that Turkey will fulfil her engage-
ment if the loan be guaranteed by England and France.
The noble lord touched upon the resources of Turkey with
that rich colour which we see given in the announcements
of joint-stock compaties. (Laughter.) He spoke of her
mines, and- of her other resources, and he expressed
his opinion that there was no doubt, whatever but that
Turkey would be able to pay the interest, and also
the instalments towards the sinking fund. But what,
let me ask, were the anticipations of the noble lord with
regard to the Greek loan in 1832 ? When he recommended
a similar case to the consideration and the sanction of Par-
liament with reference to that loan in August, 18 he
said that the three Powers had guaranteed a loan of
60,000,000 of florins, and that for his own part he had no
doubt that, when Greece was settled, it would make a
spring in commerce and agriculture which would not only
enable her to pay the interest on tie loan, but to dispense
with the necessity of raising the third portion, and perhaps
the sec and. The noble lord has given to-night an equally
sanguine opinion with regard to the resources of Turkey,
but I find, on looking at our finance accounts for the year
ended the sth of January, 1855, the following entry :
"To payment of interest and sinking fund, Greek
Loan, 47,6371. is. 4d."
I fear that,in the same manner, we must be prepared to see
in our financial accounts of future years a portion of the
public treasure, raised from the taxes of the people charged
to the liquidation of the interest and sinking fund of the
Turkish loan. (Hear) Ido not say that it is not to the
interest, of eergland that this loan should be raised, but I
contend that we should have a clear idea of the full extent
of the engagements and liabilities we are about to incur.
(Hear.) I therefore look upon this proposition of the noble
lord to guarantee the principal and interest of the loan as
an engagement which we insist be prepared to fulfil.
Lord PALMERSTON—We are not to guarantee the
principal.
Mr. DISRAELI— -Well, I look upon it as an engagement,
as far as it goes, which we must not only be prepared to
fulfil, but which we will have to fulfil. I object to arrange-
nsents of this kind as matters of policy. (Hear, hear.) I
say that you are bound to prove the necessity of the policy
you recommend, and we have not before us any circum-
stance
to show that it is necessary for us to enter into en-
gagements of this nature. The noble lord opposite says
that Turkey has been called upon to make great exertions,
but that she has not the means at this moment to enable
her to do so. But we have no information before us to as-
sure us of that fact, and I think we are entitled to have
some definite details submitted to us before we enter upon
the arrangement which the Government has invited us to
make. (Hear.) And I would ask, if we admit this system
of guaranteeing loans, where is the line to be drawn ? for
on the noble lord's plea on behalf of Turkey I do not see
why this loan should not be for 10,000,0001, We have no
data given to us as to the application of this money, or the
mode of its expenditure ; and I think the committee ought
to pause and consider whether they are not entering upon
a system which may begin this session, but the result of
which may be indefinite, and which may gradually increase
the liabilities of this country and aggravate the burdens whip h
we ourselves are obliged to bear. If it is to the inter est of
England to maintain the power of Turkey, it will be well
for the committee to inquire whether it would not be wiser
for us to incur this expenditure under our own conrol
than commence a system which, whether it be loan or sub-
sidy, is an advance of the public treasure, which, in all