The Sun.
London, England, 1855-08-07 00:00:00

I 'APE RI A L PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
THE SALE OF BEER BILL.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE then rose to move
that the select committee, appointed by the House of
Commons, having recommended *an' immediate amend-
ment of the Sale of Beer Act of 1854, the circumstances
which render legislation on the subject-matter of the bill
passed by thellouse of Commons are of such urgency as
to render the immediate consideration ol the same .ne-
cessary. The noble marquis proceeded at length to urge
the importance of the measure and the necessity of set-
tlinga question that had occasioned general inconvenience
and discontent throuoliout the country. He then re-
ferred to the evidence taken before the select committee
upon the subject, and to the vast number of petitions
presented in favour of the repeal of the act of last session.
Her Majesty's Government were in favour of passing
the present bill, and he trusted he should have the sup-
, port of a majority of their lordships for the same purpose.
It was all very well for those who opposed this measure
to say there was no hardship ; they had their clubs to go
to, but the poor man had nothing but water in
his house—and that of a most questinnabl&nature. To be
compelled to drink that after a certain hour on Sunday
was, he thought, bad in the extreme. It had been ob-
jected that this bill was introduced without sufficient
time for consideration. The measure had been urged
so early as last April, but from the pressure of business
in the other house it was found impossible for the pro-
moters of the bill to have it sent up to their lordships
till a late period of the session. Of the number
of persons appointed to inquire into the work-
ing of .the act of last session, only one out
of twelve was in favour of letting the bill of 1854
stand. The noble earl then alluded to the extreme hard-
ship upon the thousands of poor people who availed them-
selves ofthe Sunday excursion trains, as also the evil arising
from driving people to private drinking shops, and
concluded by moving the consideration of the bill as one
of urgency.
Lord REDESDALE opposed the motion, as he did
not think it was a motlen of extreme urgency. He thought
that the rule adopted by their lordships for the conduct-
ing of their proceedings should not be lightly departed
from.

Lord LYTTLETON thought that the committee ap-
pointed by the House of Commons should not govern
their lordships. He considered the construction of
that committee partial, and he should oppose the motion
for suspending the standing orders.
Earl GRANVILLE thought the etanding order
should be suspended. He considered the urgency of the
present case extreme.
The Earl of SIJAFTESBURY said he was not pre-
pared to say that the act would not admit of some re-
laxation ; but he was fully decided that upon the 6th of
August they ought not to set aside an order of the house,
upon the faith of which many noble lords had left Lon-
don, believing that no business of such a character as
was then before them could come under their consider-
ation.

Earl GRANVILLE thought it was for the commit-
tee to consider what the evidence was which they ought
to receive, in order to enable them to come to a proper
conclusion upon the subjecit matter before them.
The Earl of HA RDWICKE said he felt some diffi-
culty in making up his mind upon the subject. He was
deE.irous of supporting the orders of the house ; but, at
the same time, he thought that there were some parts of
the law objectionable. He, therefore, -thought that
under the circumstances it would be a proper thing
to relax the law, and for that reason be would sup-
port the resolution of the noble marquis. He never
wa. one of those who thought that they should
adopt any very stringent measures in regard to
public-houses ; believing that they would, by such a
course, be interfering with the ordinary comforts of the
people. It was, no doubt, most advantageous that pub-
lic-houses should be closed during Divine service, and
perhaps at such a period of the night when all classes,
particularly the working classes, ought for their own
in'erests '.o have retired to rest. In other respects he
thought that the law ought to be relaxed. He would,
therefore,:support the resolution of the noble marquis.
Lord ST. LEONARDS said he was of opinion that
the law was too stringent, and ought to be relaxed. He
would support the resolution on the ground that a case
of urgency had been made nut.
The Earl of HARROWBY also supported the reso-
lution.

r Lord CONGLETON said that this was a cage of the
public versus the publican. There were already five and
a half hours taken from the publicans' holiday, and it
was now proposed to take eight hours from him. He
did not think that the inconvenience to the public was
sufficiently great to justify this abrogation of the publi-
cans' holiday.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE having replied,
Their lordships divided—when there appeared.
For the resolution—Contents 25
Non contents l6
Majority in favour of the resolution —9
The hill was then read a second time.
The Downing-street Public Offices Bill passed through
committee.
The Militia Ballots Suspension Bill was read a second
time.
The Metropolitan Local Management Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Dissenters' Marriages Bill, as amended, was
reported.
Tho Excise Duties Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Metropolis Local Management Bill was read a
third time.
After which the following bills passed through corn•
mittee :—The Metropolis Buildings ; Customs Tariff
Acts Amendment and Consolidation ; Customs Law
Consolidation ; and Turnpike Acts Continuance (No. 2).
THE TURKISH LOAN.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Lord ST. LEONARDS wished to trouble their lord-
ships with a few observations. No one that admitted
the war to be just and necessary, no one that admitted it
was not as yet in the power of her Majesty's Govern-
meet to make a safe and honourable peace, would be
disposed to refuse to Turkey whatever pecuniary assis-
tance she might stand in need of. Nevertheless he wished
to direct their lordships' attention for a few moments to
the subject of the recent conferences at Vienna, and
would endeavour to satisfy them of what he himself
entertained—a very strong conviction 'that Russia had
never entered with any sincerity into those' conferences,
except with reference to one object, and that was the
carrying out of her own purposes. Between the end of
1354 and the beginning of 1855 the four points were
agreed upon ; the third point, embracing the double ob-
ject of the admission of Turkey into the European
family, and the putting_ an end to the preponderance
of Russia in the Black Sea. No doubt those terms
were very judiciously selected as the basis on which, if
accepted, a lasting peace might be fmnded. However,
when they came to the conferences Prince Gortschakoff
actually thanked Count Bunt for not having put before
them any proposition tending to put an end to the pre-
ponderance of Russia in the Black Sea. And upon the
same occasion Prince Gortschakoff took care to insert a
proviso, which did not sound very alarmingly at the
time—namely, that Russia would agree to nothing which
should compromise her honour. The two first points
being agreed to and accepted, with the exception of a
detailed provision to the effect that England and France
should be allowed to retain one or two small vessels of
war at the mouth of the Danube, and which Prince
Gortschakoff wished to have postponed until the next
point was de-termined, the third point was now arrived
at. The first division of the point—namely, the admis-
sion of Turkey into the European family—bad been put
forward by the four powers, on the supposition that
Russia had agreed to guarantee the possession of
the Turkish 'territory. However, Prince ,Gortschakoff
declined entering into any such compact, and pro-
tested against it, reserving for his master the right to
encroach by war upon the integrity of the Turkish em-
pire .The next question that came before the conferences
was the means of putting an end to the preponderance
of Russia in the Black Sea, which was embodied in the
second division of the third point. Not seeing their
way to an immediate solution of the question, the allies
proposed that the initiative should be taken by R'issia.
Prince Gortschakoff, however, declined to do so, desir-
ing at the same that Turkey should do en. Turkey,
however, could not do that, as she was bound by treaty
to consult with her allies. Matters were then referred
to St. Petersburg, by which a delay of three weeks was
gained, and what effect that delay bed upon the proceed-
ings before Sebastopol he would leave their lordships to
contemplate. Certain it was that nothing was more calcu-
lated to damp the ardour of soldiers engaged in a struggle
that called for the utmost display of . enthusiasm, than
the knowledge that peace was being treated for, and that
, the olive branch was being held out to the enemy,
There was not, however. the smallest pretence for refer-
ring the subject to St. Petersburg, for the fact was Prince
Gortschakoff bad already power to take the initiative,
because Count Nesselrode afterwards declared that the
Emperor Alexander intended to adhere to the terms laid
down by the Emperor Nicholas, that he was prepared to
admit the right of Turkey to command the Straits, as
well as the right of the allies to enter the Black Sea with
their fleets, provided Russia was permitted to enter into
the Mediterranean. Now no one would attempt to
deny that Prince Gortschakoff had these terms before
him at the period of the conferences. Nevertheless a
very long period elapsed before negotiations were re-
sumed, but when they were Prince. Gortschakoff stated
explicitly that Russia would not take the initiative. He
at the same time, however, made two very important
declarations • and, first of all, he declared that Russia
would not submit to any regulation that would infringe
her sovereign rights over her own territory. Now, it
appeared to him (Lord St. Leonards), that from that
moment the conferences ougbt to have been at an end.
However, after a time it was decided by the four Powers
that the proper mode of carrying into effect the third
point was by a limitation of the Russian fleet in the
Black Sea. But Prince Gortschakoff entirely dissented
to any such result, declaring that in the eyes of the
Russian Government a "formidable" Russian fleet was
necessary in the Black Sea to maintain the integrity of
the Turkish empire. Now, he was bound to state,
comparing that declaration with the former refusal of
Russia to guarantee the Turkish empire her present ter-
ritory, that in evasion and avoidance of the object of
the Allies Russia ei,played unequalled ingenuity and
sagacity. He oertainly regretted the concurrence of
M. Drouyn de I'Huva in the view taken by Austria, be-
cause thereby Germany might be induced to believe
that the Allies had thrown away a chance of peace.
However, he believed her Majesty's Government could
not have done otherwise than reject those terms o.f
peace ; and he could say the same of the terms
tno
eluded in the proposition of Austria subsequent i
the breaking up of the conference ; for virtually the two
first points of that settlement bad been d!ilsirc:atatshies
conference, while a peace adjudicated up
would only have given Russia an opportunity of playing

still further with Turkey. (Hear, hear.) He_should not
Much doubt if this loan ended in a subsidy. In his opi-
nion also it was impolitic to take the particular of secu-
rity on the tribute of Egypt and revenu., of Smyrna.
How were we to enforce the retnedv against Egypt? ard
were we to take possession of the custom-house at
&nyrna in case of non-payment! (Hear.) No sane man
could suppose that Turkey, at the present moment. c-uld
meet the obligation require l of her.. The roble and
learned lord then commented on the translation of the
words solidairement and conjointenunt, ar d cattended
that by that trenalation the Queen of Enriand was made
to guarantee the whole of the loan jointly with the Empe-
ror and severally by herself, whereas the Emperor wPs
only bound to guarantee it jointly with the Queen. (Hear.)
The noble earl (Clarenrlon) on a former occasion had said
that the question of trans'ation made nn difference with
regard to the liability ; but he (Lord St. Leonardo) in-
sisted that thie guarantee would permit the creditor, if
Turkey did not pay, and France and England -did not
pay, to compel this country to pay the entire sum. If
there was one debt from which a man shrunk more than
from another, it was a debt which he had guaranteed—
(hear)—and he, therefore, thought it would have been
better if Englard had not undertaken to pay the whole,
although he had not the slightest doubt with regard to
the perfect good faith of Francs. (Hear.) Before he
sat down be would make a suggestion with regard to the
dates for the payment of the instalments of interest. At
present the obligation of Turkey was to remit the half-
yearly interest on 25th June end the 26th of D tcember.
Now he would suggest the first payment should be made
to fall after the 25th of June, as we should have a right
to suppose that the money would have previously found
its way into the Bank of England. With regard to the
loan of our ally, he should have preferred that it had
been applied to the military purposes of Turkey, and to
the sustainment of that army in Asia Minor, where a
fatal blow might be struck at the power of Ittmia-
The Earl of CLARENDONsaid the noble and learned
lord need make no apology for addressing to theiF lord-
ships a speech in which be had gone with'se much clear-
ness into the protocols and conferences of Vienna. He
had summed up all the proceedings in a manner calcu-
lated to have a great effect in the country ; but there
was only one part of his speech to which he (the Earl of
Clarendon) should think it necessary to address him-
self. The noble and learned lord had referred to
the delay of eighteen days in the communication of her
Majesty's Government with respect to the third point,
and seemed to think that such delay must have had a
prejudicial effect on the military operations at Sehas-
tor el— that it would be impossible to carry on the war
with the same vigour and courage when fresh nego-
tiations for peace were going on. Now, that
remark would apply to any period during the negoti-
ations, as the object of the conferences was to
obtain peace. Both France and England had intimated
to their respective commanders that hut little reliance
could be placed on the negotiations, and that they were
not to relax, but increase their effort.. The noble and
learned lord had also expressed his regret that Lord J.
Russell had so far lent himself to certain propositions at
Vienna, and had created a notion in Europe, and more
particularly in Germany, that we had rejected terms
which ought to have been acceded to. Lord John Rus-
sell had been made the subject of a good deal of misre-
nresentation. He had certainly gone to Vienna, and
his conduct showed he entertained an ardent desire for
neaee ; but he would have acted unjustly if be bad re-
fused to bring the propositions under the notice of the
English Government. With regard to the loan, it was ne-
ceecary for Turkey, for unless her army was well equipped,
clothed, and paid. she corld not render us that assistance
we relied upon. The noble and learned lord seemed to
think a subsidy would have b3en the better course ; and
he (the Earl of Clarendon) was far from dissenting from
the Earl of Ellenhorough when he said that if this war
continued we might have to resort to a system of aid re-
pugnant to the feelings of the people of this country.
But we could not have taken that course in the present
instance. Turkey said to us, "I have the means and
the intention of paying both the prineinal and interest of
the loan I am compelled to raise for the common cause ;
bet if von, England and France, go surety for me, I
shall obtain the money much more easily snd on much
better terms, ard shall be better able to carry on the
war." Was there any ground for our paying " Yen have
no such means for paying the debt ?" But if that were
so, what right hal we to insist on Turkey accepting the
loan as a present ? There had never vet been a treaty or
bond the fulfilment of which did not more or less depend
on the honour and ability of the party to it ; but look-
ing to the character and objects of this convention, it
appeared to him to he as simple and straightforward a
transaction, and as little likely to cause difficulty as any
other could have been. With respect to the translation,
it certainly was considered in the Foreign-office that
" solidairement" was nothing but a repetition for " con-
jointement," and that "solidairement" was nothing but
"jointly" and "conjointly." Bet it was the bond, not
the act, which would define the claim of the creditor upon
the debtor.

L.rrl ST. LEONARDS said be did not recommend a
gulAdy per se, but thought it preferable to the guarantee
direct.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, although he could not
say that the translation bad been well done. cansiderfd
that his noble and learned friend had somewhat inaccu-
rately described its scope. Between nations an arrange.
ment of this kind was different to what it w uld be be-
tween individuals. In the case of individuals, if one of the
parties failed, the creditor might sue both or either ; but
in contracts between states and individuals no suit could
take place. If application were made to one or the other,
and payment were got from one or the other, the rights
of the two nations would not depend on the form of the
instrument, but on the engagement entered into.
Lord ST. LEONARD'S said that the French Go-
vernment had correctly expressed an intention, but we
had mistranslated the words of the treaty. (Hear.)
The vote then passed through committee.
The Island of Tobago Loan Bill was read a second
time ; and their lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
KENSINGTON GARDENS, &c.
On the motion of Mr. BUTLER, the following re•
,urns were ordered :

"Of the extent in acres of Kensington Gardens,
ITyde Park, St. James's Park, the Green Park,
Regent's Park, and Victoria Park, showing also, as
regards Victoria-park, the quantity of land which
by the Act 4 and 5 Vic., c. 27, the Commissioners
of Woods were authorised to purchase for the purposes
of the park, and the proportion of such land which they
were by that act empowered to appropriate for building
purposes ; also, showing the quantity of land which was
actually purchased by them, and the portions thereof
which by the Act 14 and 15 Vic., c. 46, were placed
under the management of the Commissioners of Land
Revenue, and were directed to be leased by them, ex-
hibiting also the quantities within and without the park
fence.

" Of the moneys expended upon Victoria Park up
to the 10th day of October, 1851, distinguishing the out.
lay incurred in the purchase of land from that incurred
in works and maintenance, and of the moneys expended
respectively by the Commissioners of Land Revenue in
each year since the 10th day of October, 1851, upon the
portions of the park placed under their management,
and by the Commissioners of Works in each year in the
same period in the payment of salaries, and in the main-
tenance of the residue of the said park.
" And, of the sources from which the money so
expended has been derived, whether from the sale of
York House, from the income of the land revenue, vote
of Parliament, or other sources."

Lord PALMERSTON withdrew the Cambridge Uni-
versity Reform Bill, and the order for the second read-
ing was discharged.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

The bowie then went into committee on this bill.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he felt it his duly
to make a few explanatory observations relative to the
principle and objects of this bill. He regretted that the
bill should have come in at so late a period of the ses-
sion. This had been ascribed to motives, on his part,
of dislike to the bill, and to motives of sordid cha-
racter, but there never was a more unjust insinuation
thrown out.

Mr. KNIGHT moved that the bill be comtnittedllat
day three months. He objected to the late period of
the session at which
.the measure was introduced, which,
till be beard the Attorney-General's disclaimer, he ima-
gined had been delayed on purpose ; for he was sure this
bill would never have been passed if it had been brought
forward a month ago. He objected to the enormous
powers which this bill gave the commissioners, and
which, he said, would effectually prevent any respectable
man from ever again becoming trustee of a charity.
After criticising unfavourably the details and machinery
of the bill, he moved that it be committed that day three
months.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE seconded the amendment.
Dr. MICHELL complained that the powers of the
commissioners, as proposed in this bill, far from being
too large, were not large enough. He proposed to place
all charities with incomes under 8501. a year under the
control of the commissioners.
Mr. A. PELLATT opposed the bill.
Sir G. GREY hoped that, now the bill was 'discussed,
they would go into committee and effect such amend-
ments as might be thought proper.
Mr. CAIRNS complained that the large powers pro-
posed to be conferred upon the Charity Commissioners
might be, for anything that appeared, exercised in pri
vate, and that was an arrangement which he did not
think the country would tolerate. He would not grudge
even extended powers being granted to the commission'
ers, but then they should be conferred as part of a'wu
considered scheme, with care taken that theywere_
exer-
cised in public. He recommended that this bill
be withdrawn, and that a new bill with more
when
powers should be introduced next year, nn
would be more time to consider it.
t nded that the
The SOLICITOR•GENERAL
n his wopnineion, the
late period of the session,
tcinoh.ni dbuoei
jerBueagthsrile
ttoduiituom:tyrnehe,e.se
strong-
estby
passingreason that
this
o measure,ul d beu r g wedtados
bi o'irreadt
lhellesipAwi
nehaldeOrArtuttehisoLeeeealttpdhiNonrmeeeS
that had already been wasted' y
sittings of the commissioners,
lieity, therecfoarier,nws,oualndd bea
He defended the
sonnd
hindrance instead of .
tnhoetgjraodnicnidaiwadht: private
3attr
eahhteleip
lruup
urged
on the matters o g
encic Hettbi ()rye 1 replied
Dir.
ed they were
con-
tended
a; could properly be remedied in committee.
that even if they were
.well found
Mr. HENLEY repeated some of the objections m gad
by previous speakers against the privacy in which —the
vCe 0
uT
pE t ahr ie d Mr.judicial
commissioners sere to exercise their functions
upon the commissioners in this bill.
GoSvierrnWm.elintEtAoTglli
powers conferred
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
reluctantly agreed to
this suggestion, on which
Mr. KNIGHT allowed his
motion to be negatived
without a division, and the house went into oommitte
on the bill, and proceeded to the 22d clause, when

- -
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, to sit again this
at twelve.
)n the motion to go into committee on thegpispateh
of . Business Court of Chancery Bill,
'r. HADFIELD moved that the house do now ad-
jour, 1.

At ter some discussion the committee was postponed
till tt e morning sitting of this day.
The order for.the Partnership Amendment Bill was
discb arged.
The- School Grants (Severity for Application) Bill was
read a second. time: • ,
The i notion for going 'into committee on the Crime
and Out.-age (Ireland) Continuance Bill was opposed by
Mr. Bow YER and others; but was carried by a majority
of 39 to LS. The house then went into committee.
After a long discussion on the, chums,. the committee
Was " counted out" at three o'clock.