The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-08-06 00:00:00

SELECT VESTRY.-YESTERDAY

The fortnightly meeting of the select vestry was held at
ten o'clock yesterday in the parish offices, Brownlow-
hill. The Rev. Rector Campbell occupied the chair, and
the other members present were Messrs. Woodruff. Owen,

Bairstow, Jackson, Satchel!, Mellor, Taylor, Denton,

Syred, ereilin, Whitty, Smith, Critchley and Cooke.
Mr. Denton asked whether any reply to the chairman's
letter had been received regardimr the measurements by
Mr. We;ghtrnan of Messrs. Holmes' contract.

The Chairman replied in the negative.
Mr. Denton remarked that at the last meeting of the
board a gentleman stated that it was in accordance with the

wishes of the contractors the measurements were not sub-
mitted to the board. He should state in justice to those

gentlemen, whom he had seen since, that the measurements
should be presented to the board.
The Chairman said he wrote to the surveyor last
Friday, but had received no answer.

WORKHOIiSt COM M TTTEB:
The minutes of this committee were read. It appeared

that the numbers admitted into the vagrants sheds were
280 males, 80 females, and 22 children—in all 382. The
number of sick cases in the hospital on the 30`h ult. was
. .

481,Ittcludin.;27 fever and 34 itch. The total number of
persons in the workhouse on the 30th ult. was 1,981.
Mr. Denton moved the confirmation of the proceedings,
which was agreed to without dis9ussion.

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS' COMMITTEE.
The minutes of this committee contained the following—
Upon the motion of Mr. Bairstow,- seconded by Mr.
Satchel!, the followingminutes was unanimously agreed
to :--The chaplain having reported to the committee that
the Rev. Richard Doyle-had been speaking to Protestant
children upon the subject of religion, and Mr. Doyle
having required an investigation, the committee, after a
searching enquiry, "came to the unanimous resolution,
that as the children were originally recorded as Roman
Catholics, Mr. Doyle was, under the circumstances, and
according to the regulations then in force, justified in the
course he took, and that there is no ground of complaint

against him."
Mr. Satchell, in moving the confirmation of the proceed-
ings, said it appeared that the Rev. Isaac Holmes, who
was head master as well as chaplain, reported that Mr.
Doyle had spoken to Protestant children upon the subject
of religion. After a close and impartial investigation, the
committee came to the conclusion that the report was
not substantiated. At the same time that he was
very desirous of giving Mr. Doyle the full benefit
of the resolution—indeed, he had seconded it at the
committee ; still, it placed Mr. Holrne in rather a peculiar
position, and he (Mr. Satchell) was, therefore, desirous
that the public should understand the true nature of the
case. The Rev. Mr. Holme was perfectly justified in the
course he took, because the children had universally
attended his services, and regularly received Protestant
instruction. Mr. Doyle was also free from blame, inas-
much as the children were represented to him as Roman
Catholics, and he supposed, that in speaking to them he
was speaking to members of his own flock. Now Mr.
Doyle denied that he had spoken to the children at all—
he said that the children spoke to him. Some gentlemen
might say that there was very little difference between
"tweedledum" and " tweedledee." But in this case there
was a very important difference, because it did appear,
ou the most close investigation the committee could give,
that the children went to Mr. Doyle, and made the state-
ment themselves. he did not go to them. He had only to
add, that Mr. Holmo had done right in reporting the
matter to the committee, and that if he had neglected
doing so, he would have neglected doing his duty to the
committee, and to the children of the institution, over
whom, as their chaplain, he was bound to watch with the
most jealous care. (Hear, hear.) He wonld suggest, that
all matters of importance should be reported, either by
the chaplain or by the house steward, Mr. Coates, and his
advice to the officers would be, "nothing extenuate, nor
set down aught in malice."

Mr. Denton hoped they should have no more squabbles
upon the matter.

The Chairman said, his impression respectinß the rev.
gentleman was, that neither of them was in the least to
blame. (Hear, hear.)
The proceedings were then confirmed.
riv ANCE COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of this committee were read.
Mr. Woodruff in moving their confirmation said, hit
had to call the attention of the vestry to a matter of some
importance, which would involve the closing of St-
Martin's Cemetery, and the opening of that. at Walton.
He requested that the clerk would read a letter which
had been received from Sir George Grey upon the
subject. _ . _ _

The Clerk read a letter from Sir George Grey, inform.
ing the vestry that the order made in council for the
closing of St Martin's Cemetery had not been repealed'
and must be obeyed.

Mr. Woodruff' said the board would perceive by that
letter, that it was imperative upon the rector and the
churchwardens to cease making interments there, and,
therefore, there was no time to be lost in making arrange'
ments for interring the dead in Walton Cemetery-
They were all aware that some ten years ago;
the land at Walton was purchased, and th
cemetery was now completed, or very nearly se,
He thought they all agreed in the desirability of closing
St. Martin's Cemetery • but, whether they agreed to it of
not, it row appeared that the order was imperative upon
them from the government that no more interments should
take place in that ground. Therefore, it would be well
that the vestry should make arrangements for the inter'
ment of the dead somewhere else. If the vestry thought
fit, the rector and ehurchwardens were prepared immedi-
ately to have the dead buried in Walton. In moving the
confirmation of the minutes he also moved that the vestry
instruct the rector and churchwardens to that effect.
Mr. Denton said before the board made any order 0'
that kind they ought to consider the expense of removal
from Liverpool to Walton. He feared the removal would
be very expensive, and he should like to know what
arrangements would be made for that purpose.
Mr. Woodruff said whatever the expense might be the
vestry were bound to meet it. It was quite certain that
holies could not be any longer interred in the town
However, Mr. Denton need not have much fears Oil
account of the expense of removal. It would involve the
cost of an additional horse and:an additional van, probablfi
but that was all.
Mr. Jackson reminded the board that the prerogative
and power of Sir George .Grey in such instances were
but limited. On a former occasion, when he enquired
how soon the interments would commence at Walton, he
was told it would be in a year or two. From this it was
evident that there was still some space left in St. Martine
cemetery, and he recommended the board to goon makief;
interments there until they had time to deliberate upon
the course they should take, and consult the public. 11°
expressed a strong disapproval of the purchase of the
Walton ground, in the first instance, and condemned the
ground as unsuited for the purpose, because of it having
a clay soil, as well as for other reasons. He contended
that it would involve a very great additional expense---50.
much so that where the vestry were now paying .elOO f:t
interments they would have to pay nearly £l,OOO. He
urged that they would be subject to new fees there'
according as the existing rector desired to charge, an,t-
that whereas they were now paying 6d. each pauper,
they went to the new ground and paid according to the
scale of fees charged on ordinary private funerals at WI;
Martin's cemetery, they would have to pay Bs. 6d.
person. In addition to that, the toll-bars must be pal:
for. He therefore called on the vestry not to take such
responsibility on themselves, but to bring the who,'
subject before a meeting of the ratepayers generallf,
Although the ground was not suitable for burial purposes'
he had no doubt that., if they had the power to sell it, theft
might obtain for it as much as it had cost them, if 11°
more, for building purposes. Mr. Jackson therefor°
moved as an amendment that the whole question be
referred to a general meeting of the parish.
The Chairmen said it was impossible for any state'
ment to be more utterly inaccurate than Mr. Jolt:
son's. The payment to which he referred, as amount'
ing to 8s 6d, would include the 2s 6d which was rt°,7
charged for the purchase of the land by the churelt
wardens, and would also include the fees to the cler:
and sexton. These payments must, therefore, be
deducted from the 8s 6d, inasmuch as they were additie°,
to the 6d fee previously demanded and paid at St. Martin:
cemetery. He distinctly declared that funerals should 0,
be permitted in St. Martin's parochial cemetery 0,4
longer. He would not permit his curates to officiate in thili
cemetery, for the plain reason that if they did so they wow.
be punishable twice over—they would be committing
misdemeanour, and in addition any common infertile:
might sue them in a penalty 0f,.e10 for every funeral sera
vice they performed. Therefore, after a certain time to V:
agreed upon by the churchwardens—for he did not wish t:
put the parish to the slightest possible inconvenience—he
would not any longer subject himself or his curates to t'll
penalties he had mentioned for performing the Neel,
service there. The Secretary of State had written to the
churchwardens to say. that the order was in force atir,
must be obeyed. He therefore now declared that funerals
must be discontinued at St. Martin's cemetery. He 4
not say they must go toWalton
o'l
but he would advise the'
ra
to go there, because if they did not do so, where :0
they go ? They inkht go to St. James's cemetery, but '0
addition to the fees, they must pay for the ground there'
They might possibly go to the new cemetery in Sm
tb
ith;down-lane, but there they would have to pay 3s to
officiating minister, and to pay for the ground, and Yet'
highly too.
Mr. Owen thought that the matter required much na014.6
consideration, and that it might be worth while to disP°'
of the Walton cemetery and buy another. et
The Chairman : I am no lawyer, and indeed I do OA
know any one who is. (Laughter.) The decisions ti;
so conflicting, that I defy any man to say he is a lawie 0
But as you talk about selling this land, there is °li
person to be consulted in the sale, viz., myself. The free e
hold of the cemetery is 'vested in me y law. Of court;
an act of Parliament can take it away from .
as it can do anything, but I do not know that the leg's/
if
ture will take away my freehold from me without [tiff
having to say a word on the matter. Therefore do 1!.01.
talk so glibly about selling the consecrated eemetery--10
consecrated it is—and / tell you that I will not agilio
subject Myself, or any of my curates, to a penalty of •Id
for any future funeral services.
Mr. Denton seconded Mr. Jackson's motion. te
Mr. Bairstow moved that a committee be appointed
take the question into consideration, but subsequentip
withdrew the motion.
Finally, after a lengthened discussion, Mr. Woodroff
withdrew his opposition to Mr. Jackson's motion, willco
accordingly passed without opposition.
The other proceedings were then confirmed.
A letter was read from Mr. Hastings, requesting to 11:.
allowed to resign his seat in the select vestry. The on
nation was accepted, and Mr. Woodruff gave notice tiro
at the next meeting he would move:the appointment
successor.
The vestry then adjourned.;

CATHOLIC REFORMATORY INSTITUTION

MEETING LAST NIGHT

A. public meeting of the Roman Catholics of the
diocese of Liverpool was held last night, in the
Queen's Hall, Bold-street, to initiate measures for the
establishment of a Reformatory for such Catholic
children of the diocese as might become subject to the
act for the reformation of juvenile offenders.
Several of the Roman Catholic clergy of the diocese
were present, and among the gentlemen on the platform
were—W. Brown, M.P. for South Lancashire, R. Sheil,
jee B. A.sninall, John Yates, jun., M. A. M'Donald
"fmnell, T. W. Blundell ; the Revs. James Sheridan,
Canon llodeson, Canon Greenhalgh, Dr. Fernhough, M.
O'Callaghan,—Wallwork, Canon 'Renshaw, Jones Carr,
Thomas Kelly, P. J. Phelan, W. Bulbek, Richard Sum-
ner, Thomas Tobin ; anti Messrs. Henry Sharpies,
Thomas Gillovv, William, Reynolds, Peter Byrne, Gerard
Lynch, Thomas Daly, Joseph Pike,
James Livingston,
James e • , Edward Dunn,
Sbeil Richard Terbay,
Daniel Powell, and M. Massabini.
The Proreeedings did not commence until an hour
beyond the!
, The 'hair was taken amid loud applause by the
""'"'-ai Catholic Bishop, the right Rev. Dr. Goss.
The Chairman said he thought any man would be
justified in feeling somewhat of pride in being called
'neon to preside over a meeting called for the purpose of
reforming juvenile criminals ; but when he considered
the manner in which the Catholics of Liverpool re-
sponded to that call, he felt a still greater degree of pride,
because it sl owed their eagerness and earnestness for the
reformation of those who, he was sorry to eay, mainly
belonged to their own body. Unfortenately the time
was, when men who fell were treated rather in the
Manner in which God treated the rebel angels in His
justice, than in the manner in which he treated fallen
man in his mercy. When men became crimitills, they
were at once condemned from society, they were cast
into deep, dark dungeons ; no place could be sufficiently
horrible in which he could be put, who had once lost his
innocence by crime, Caverns 'were dug deep into the
earth, sometimes even etetendieg under the sea ; men
were fastened. and manacled to the walls, until the very
iron eat into their flesh, Wed the noxious reptiles which
lurked and ce•ept in daek and foetid places, lived and
lodged in the wounds which the iron had eaten away.
Rut non,„ be was glad to say they lived in better times,
an
a•s d t
ee ilte leglilature had begun to recognise that man
-• loot merely an animal. It was true lie was an
P`nitnal, and with animal propensities equally strong as
'those which any of the brute creation possessed ; but at
the same time
man was a rational animal, and the
'legislature was now beginning to appeal not merely to
IhiB animal fears or animal passions—to his dread of
PFePishment and his fear of expiating the crimes of his
upon the gallows—but they were beginning also to
!,tPPeal to his reason, in order that they might awaken in
V.ln a sense of his crime, and by reforming him restore
him to society. (Applause.) Na, they were even
going
farther than that. (Hear, beyar.) .A
better day
l . had dawned upon them, and the legislature now
looked not merely to man as an animal, or even as a
rational animal, but
as a religious animal ; and they
were beginning to `discover`discoverthat if' man was to be
orreformed, it could be merely through his religious
finciples--(hear, bear)—that if a man had not the fear
of God before him, there. was not much chance
The having the fear of man. (Hear, hear.)
. rFfore the legislature was wisely allowing each
'r
religion to provide reformatories, in order that the
lineiPle's in which the child had been brought up and
educated, nlieht have a fair trial upon his mind—and
Zlie had no doubt it would be found to operate with the
erV best results. They were aware that for some time
pack, there bad been a law passed by which youths,
_Who had been found guilty of misdemeanours, was sent
oto establishments termed reformatories, in order that
ey might there be put for some years under a course
7itraining, that they might be removed from their
cious companions, and have good principles instilled
into them, be taught a trade, and the means of living,
and thus restored to r.., society, which had forgotten their
crimes and delinquencies. (Applause)buthe They hadt now
been established c,or some time
that they had neit yet had one establishedriengrtehat oilioocessany,
nor had they taken any very effectual or energetic
measures to provide themselves with one, although,
a
t the same time, many of the
criminals
who were now in the Catholic reformatories had been
sent f.rom that town—
tn and he was h to they
i_ e.c with the very best
encouragement appy say
that,
not only from
heir worthy stipendiary magistrate—(cheers)—but al,o
from many other gentlemen, who had exerted themselves
in the most praiseworthy manner, coining forward
guided by their own generous !parts, and treading under
loot the little petty bigotry which in years past had dis-
graced the town of Liverpool. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
He trusted that a better time had now arrived, and that
'Men would show themselves superior to the low
•Frovelling passions which might indeed rouse up men,
kindle their worst feelings, and produce dissention and
disorder in the town, but never could he productive of
,any good. (Hear, hear.) If truth required the aid of
Physical force, misrepresentation or bigotry,
could no ]on longer be called truth, for truth must
stand unaided, and that which could not do so
was not truth. He was glad to say that
they were now beginning to find that those feelings of
li
_ tgotry were passing away. They were now treated
Pon an equality with their fellow townsmen. Their
fellow townsmen were coming forward not only in the
Most friendly, but also in the most generons manner, to
aid their efforts, and he had no doubtlthat, if they were
trite to themselves, if they trusted themselves, and
eee'neavoured to collect subserieo ions for the purpose, they
olild be most zealously and energetically aided by those
n who were influenced by the great example of our
'Lord, and who looked upon all human beings as their
fellow men, and were ever ready to stretch out a
tenerous hand in their help and behalf. (Hear, hear.)
're bad no doubt that a better day had dawned upon
-Liverpool, and that they had come to an end of the
entry which formerly disgraced the town, and that
each would now stretch out the hand of fellowship to
`the other, and work together in the great career, en-
lleavouring to relieve fallen human nature, to alleviate
'the distresses of the poor in their physical wants, and
yet more in their moral wants. He was sure they
Should find no opposition in their endeavours, but that
they would receive every encouragement in the estab-
lishment of a reformatory for the Catholic children in
Liverpool. Heretofore they were aware that on the
commission of a solitary crime the child was sent to
prison, and that he came from that able school of crime
a practised villain, costing the country many hundreds
of pounds before his vicious career was terminated by
transportation. The country, happily, now saw its error
of
in that respect, and instead
sending juvenile offenders
to gaols, which were, in their case, the seminaries of
crime, it was proposed to send them to reformatories.
where they would be reclaimed from vice, and made
good and useful members of society. (Hear, hear) The
Catholics had already true institutions of such a kind in
England, which were conducted by Deli, ten of
education, birth, and fortune, who had re,ired front the
world, in order that they might more faithfully serve
their Ged, and whose example, not less than their teach-
ing, could not fail to have a powerful influence for good
on the minds of the children committed to their charge.
In that respect they had the advantage over all other
finstitutions, for it could not be doubted that the influence
or good of such men, under such circumstances, would
far exceed that of mere paid agents, however zealous or
conscientious. The right rev. chairman then dwelt on
the temptations to which youth was subject, not the
least of the causes of their crime being the evil example
of their parents, and concluded by stating, that though
they had received several letters of encouragement from
getelemen who were unable to attend, lie would read
only two—those which he had roe-dyed from their
respected stipendiary magistrate (cheers) —and their
'Worthy chief constable, Major Greig. (Cheers.) After
Paying a high and merited compliment to Mr. Mansfield
and Major Greig for the manner in which they dis-
charged the duties of their onerous offices, the chairman
concluded by calling on -
Mr. J. B. Aspinall to read the letters from Mr. Mans-
field and Major Greig, expressing their warm approba-
tion of the objects of the institution, and wishing it every
success.
Mr. W. Blundell proposed the first resolution, which
was as follows:—" That the establishment of a Reforma-
tory for juvenile criminals is a work of paramount impor-
tance to all who take an interest in the well-being of
society, an
Christians, should be an object of solicitude to all
the circumstance, dan epecially to the Catholic body, from the
to its communione, that great numbers of the poor belong
Mr. W. Brown, ler
"i-P, on coming forward to second the
that
resolutiosomne ,
ultra nen ,
was enthusiastically applauded. He observed
' --P"' might consider him out of place in
taking part in the establishment of a Catholic Reformatory,
but he for his part considered that ho was never out of
plwasace in taking Part in any movement the object of which
that all could a great national bene
not combine in fit; (Cheers.) He regrettedmovement, but though he was the on le same direction in such a
y Protestant present
Yet he believed that there were few of his persuasion in
Liverpool who did not wish well.to the object which the
Catholics of the diocese had now in view The resolution was carried by acclamation.
p
Mr. J. B. Aspinall, in an eloquent speech,
d the
ropose
second resolution, which was in these terms That e.....,.
reformatory
aPPreciating the importance of a for young
e..., in this .
professing the Catholic retie'
and finals diosese .
elm],
well as the duty of
raakia"aously alive to the necessity as
uR
Pr"i • for their reformation, and the retention.
of their
t. . mon
be now entered into
for raisbtaith, a
th public subscription .
into effect this,
desirabiegoir;:oe
necessary funds for carrying
in submitting
the proposir t." The learned gentleman,
official con-
nected with Itlin, observed that there was no official
Liverpool
who was not administration of the law
objectl which
the present tneneetiions for the success of the.
dthat from
the sth of June tog had in view. He mentioned
had been sent to thitihe sth of Augnst, 36 Catholic c
ese institutions, and after an eloquent