The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-10-06 00:00:00

THE NORTHERN DAILY TIMES.

the badlharacters who itilhsted that neiNiourhood, These
were some of the advantages in favour of the street from the'
southern pediment of St. George's Hall to Dale-street; but,
at the same time, the High Level Bridge would open a good
and useful thoroughfare between the east and west peas of
the town. There was a model in the room which illustrated
the advantages of the high level scheme, and as the advan-
tages of improvement in that neighbourhood were so clear,
he" would say little more to urge it upon the attene
tion of the Council than calling their attention to the
model. The very heavy traffic which was impeding a great
many of their narrow streets at this moment, would be en-
tirely got rid of by the facilities which this new road would
give ; and he had no doubt, that although the mid-day om-
nibusses would take the old road, for the sake of picking up
a few' passengers, still, all the omnibusses which came into
town between ten and eleven o'clock in the forenoon, with
passengers whose business was in the neighbourhood of the
Exchange, all these would take the high level, to the great
relief of Church-street and Lord-street, and that at a time
when gentlemen were driving their own vehicles into town.
Again, they should consider another 'point. How
many thousand. ' pounds of horse flesh would be
saved by this improvement. (Laughter.) • That was a
question, 'which, to the owners of cattle, was one of very
great importance ; and his own impression was, that the
carrying out of these two great improvements, and the others
which were of minor importance, would be a very great
saving to the town, and true economy. The advantages
arising from these improvements were so manifold, that
many of them could not be appreciated until they were
carried out; and he had no doubt that the returns, taking
all the advantages into account, would be something like
25 per cent. upon the outlay. He therefore trusted, that as
that was the last Council that their proceedings could come
before, previous, to their drawing up the bill, and giving the
notices, they would be unanimous in giving the Surveyor

instructions to proceed in the matter. -
Mr. GARDNER seconded the adoption of` the report, and
in so doing observed, that he cordially_ concurred in all the

recommendations of the Committee, wi.f th the exception of
t hat of the High Level Bridge, Tt might be presumption on
his part, to allude to that matter, when he saw so many

members present more competent to deal with it than he
was ; but still he should say, that thAt was the only re-
commendation of the Committee in which he did not concur.

v • aas. V vvaay.o •
As regarded the new line of street from Moorfields to St.
George's Hall, three years ago he advocated its construction,
and he was still satisfied that it was one of the greatest
improvements which could be effected in the town. In
making it they would only cut through Cumberland-street
Preston and Hood-streets, and thus they would not come upon
any valuable property whatever. It was sixteen or seventeen
years since this improvement was first suggested, and yet
nothing had been done towards effecting it ; but, if the town
were to grow still more, and go on multiplying in wealth
as they every day observed it ; if their docks were to still
more increase, and the same pressure of business, and demand
for offices, as at present, continue ; then, he should say,
that none of these things would long last, if the improve-
ments which the public required and were calling for, were
not accomplished. He was as certain as possible, that if
the gentlemen who were opposing them did not merely look
to their present advantage, but °looked to the. advantages
which it would ultimately confer both on themselves and
the town, they would nc.t only concur in the improvements,
but would give every support to - obtain the bill from
Parliament, to accomplish that which was so much. required.
There were a great many other arguments which he could
bring to bear 'in this important question, but the subject had
been so tally spoken to by the gentleman who introduced it,
that lite did not Consider it necessary to occupy the time of
the Ckmcil in dwelling on them. He thought it. the more un-
-Aettssary, because hekiiew there were gentlemen present, who
were able, and who he hoped would employ their powers in
inducing the Council to be unanimous on this subject, and
to go at once before Parliament to obtain an act by which
they could accomplish the improvements so much, wanted
and desired. They should remember that, on obtaining
the act, they did not intend to go on at once with all the
improvements. (Hear, hear.) They were not bound to do
so, but they could take up each street in its turn, and
having completed one improvement could enter on another.
Let them get, however, the power first, and then it would
be in the discretion of the Council to determine what they
should first undertake, and what they should leave undone.
(Hear' hear.)
Mr. Ald. TURNER imquired if the Improvement Committee
had taken into consideration the widening of Church-street?
It was the orinion of a great many members of the Council
that the widening of Church-street was much more desirable
than many of the contemplated improvements.
Mr. BENNET replied that it had received the consideration
of the Committee, but that they found the widening of
Church-street naturally involved the widening of Bold-street
in connexion with it. It would be utterly useless to widen
one without widening the other, and the expense would be
so much that the Committee did not think it prudent

to recommend the matter to the Council, more particularly
as they thought the making of new streets through old
property far more desirable than the widening of streets
where property was very valuable.
Mr. BIGHAM asked if it would not be better to take at
once the discussion on the High Level Bridge, that being
the subject:which involved the greatest difference of opinion.
The MAYOR replied, that it was for the Council to
decide Whether or not they would sanction such a pro-
ceedin,g.
Mr. BIGHAM observed that it was very probable if a con-
clusion were arrived at in reference to the High Level
Bridge, they would consent at once to the street through
Moorfields. (" Hear, hear," and " no, no.")
The TOWN CLERK reminded the Council that they could
not submit both plans to Parliament as alternative plans ;
they should go for one or both.
Mr. PICTON concurred with Mr. Bigham, and thought it

would be better to take the proposal" section by section

The Mayor said if it were the wish of the Council to take
the discussion first on the clause having reference to the High
Level Bridge, he could see no objection to it ; and he
thmight that it would be consistent with their previous pro-

ceedings.

Mr:HonsoN inquired, if in speaking of a new street from
Dale-street to George's Hall, the Committee intended to do

anything to remedy the difficulty of coming down Shaw's
Brow ? (Cries of ' certainly.")
Mr. Alderman Paocron thought that they should first
understand the proposition of Mr. Alderman Turner, as to
whether they would be at liberty to include the alterations
in Church-street and Park Lane, in the contemplated im-
provements. (No, no.)
Mr. STEWART hoped that if he were to vote against the
high level bridge, he would not be considered voting against
any improvement in Shaw's-brow; (no, no,) for he was
quite of opinion that Shaw's-brow ought to be improved,
(hear, hear,) and he thought that the consideration now was
whether they could not effect that improvement without
having recourse to the high level bridge, to which he was
decidedly opposed. (Hear, hear.) He was not aware of
any instance where a difference of level so comparatively
slight, was surmounted in any town in the United Kingdom,
by means of a viaduct ; and he was quite sure that if, in
the present instance, it were made, it would considerably
deteriorate the property on the low level. That the steep
in Shaw's-brow could be removed, he was quite satisfied,
and he was confirmed the more in this conviction by the
published report of the Architectural Society, which he,
would take the liberty of reading to the Council. Mr.
Stewart then read the report, in which it was shown how
Shaw's-brow could be reduced to the same level as Rene-
lagh-street, and urged that so long as that was practicable,
the question of a high level bridge should not be entertained.
Mr. BIGRAM said, that irt moving the amendment he was
about to propose, there was not the slightest intention either
on his own part, or those who agreed with him, to adopt the
course referred to by _Mr. Stewart. On the contrary, he and
they thought that it would be a benefit to property and the
town to have Shaw's-brow improved, by lessening its steep,
and that that could be done was clearly shown by Mr.
Stewart's remarks. As to the high-level bridge, so far from
being an advantage, he thought it would be a serious injury,
not only to the inhabitants there, but to the inhabitants of
the town generally. It would be a complete eye-sore, and
would be a singular example, the like of which they had
not in the whole of England. So far from erecting such a
work, he would rather, if erected, pay £90,000 to pull it
down again. Let them look to Birmingham or Manchester, or
any of those townswhere railways crossed the streets bybridges,
and they would observe that there dark clouds were ever
overhanging, and that around them the worst of characters
congregated. In moving the amendment, he for one should
be sorry to see all improvements stopped in the locality to
which it referred, and that the wording of the amendment
would show. In conclusion, Mr. Bigham moved an amend-
ment, which was to the effect that that portion of the Com-
mittee's report, recommending a high level bridge, be not
adopted.
Mr. Moss seconded the amendment.

Mr. GLADSTONE begged, before coming to the question
immediately before the Council, to make a few remarks with
reference to the memorial which he had the honour to present
to the Council. As was stated, the number of signatures
attached to the memorial was 240, and if examined, the
Council would find that they were, in point of respectability
and standing, equal to anything that was to be found in con-
nexion with such documents. With reference to the more
material portion of the memorial, he could only say that he
scarcely ever read one that seemed to him more consistent
with sound argument and common sense. He might remark
that the 240 signatures were obtained in one day, and were
confined to the immediate locality of '"Wlitechapel,
the Old Hay Market, St. John's-lane, Byrom-street, and
Dale-street, and more signatures would have been attached
to it were it not for the absence of many parties
whose names s9uld,,vot be procured. He was not
not sure whetheethiAtisaibeki ittNouncil followed very
closely the wordiagN4lliiptititioff,ia 4 he would, therefore,
call their atten ; MVP. ints contained in it.
They stated, 2, t e proposed viaduct
would not o •e ail— jury birt every future im-
provement o Pr9trty on the 1( Tel, and that they
0 thought it .".„,s6 y, very expensive.
They though p TO,7l)ll.,..:zsary,,lic.eau,, as quite practica-
ble to alter th of r ro and Dale-street so
as to reduce th:4. 1‘•1.7 ion to Ranelagh-street,
which Mr. Ben 70 pans only 1 in 22 in its
gradient. Now, surely, ligatilt could be reduced to
anything like that of Ranolagh-street, he scarcely knew
what more the town could desire. It was perfectly public

,
tC). the Most M
ordinary eye that, between anchester.street
to the bottom of Dare-street, a very consideiabie cutting
could be made, and that. even an the top of Shaw's Brow a
very large slice could, with very great adVantage, be cut
off. The memorialists further stated that such an altera=
tion of the gradient as he had spoken of would be less
prejudicial " than the erection Of a bridge to the adjoining
property, most of which is in a condition to render an early
re-building requisite to adapt it to the changing character
of the locality;"-and they then went on to say "that the
raising of Byrtini,street is further advantagemiS, as it Would
tend to improve the present defective drainage resultina.
from the lowness of its position." They preeeeded to state
that the proposed erection would necessarily be very _un-
sightly to all who would frequent the streets on the low
leVel, as it would constantly be a receptacle for nuisances
and disorderly characters, and that the railway bridge in
Lead's-street full exemplified this. They tholight the new
street would be expensive, as was shown by the amount
which appeared front the Council's published proceedings;
and that compensation for the injury to property could be
with difficulty ascertained. These were some of the
leading points contained in the memorial, which appeared
to him eminently to take .a sound common sense view
of the subject. He certainly had given the subject
the best consideration in his, poWers, and he admitted that
it was one about which the members of the Connell could
have no persOnal difference. (Hear, hear.) It was a case
in which men might entertain different opinions ; and though
it Was but just to suppose that all were actuated by the
same pure motives( yet it was perfectly possible that one
party might be right and the other wrong Now, his
notion was, that this bridge wag hot tephred. He believed
that it would be made use Of by omnibuSses and gentlemen
from West Derby, Walton, and that locality : but that after
ten o'clock in the forenoon, all these oninibiisseS Would bring
in a considerable number Of feniale paSsengers who would
require to be set dotn hi the district where the shops were
located. With regard to the coal carts, he admitted that a
'neat number of coal carts did traverse Shaw's Brow, but
if the level there were altered, that difficulty would be re-
moved. Mr. Stewart had also put very candidly to the
Council, that there was no instance of a bridge or viaduct in
the centre of any town in the United Kingdom. They
were aware, most of them, of the existence of the North
Bridge, in Edinburgh ; that was an exception to the general
rule, but they would recollect that the space which separated
the new town from the old, was nothing more nor less than
a deep ravine, and that the difficulty presented there could
never be overcome but by means of a High Level Bridge.
He did not know whether it had fallen to the lot of any
member of the Council to reside for any time in Edinburgh ;
he had done so, and was well acquainted with the North
Bridge, and he could say, that the filth, the dirt, and the
stench; from the ground below, was at all times Most dread-
ful. Every pains ho believed were taken to cleanse
that portion of the town, but in spite of every
exertion, it remained to this day a filthy locality.
Now with reference to the cost of this proposed High Level
Bridge, no one could form a correct estimate. (Hear, hear.)
Then again, as to .the form •and shape of it, some, he was
told; held it should be a piece of net-work ; others were of
opinion that the sides should be supported by solid brick-
work or masonry; in the shape of houses or other premises
of that kind. But there was a much more important view
of he ease than any which had been urged to-day, that he
took of the proposal of the High Level Bridge, which to a
certain extent unquestionably was to abandon the property
below, and to carry the traffic by means, of a viaduct—
there was a much stronger objection which had struck him,
and which he would mention to the Council. He (Mr..
Gladstone) believed that bridge, if erected, would inflict
on the poorer classes a great moral wrong. (Hear, hear.)
He knew not whether gentlemen passed there so frequently
as he had to do, every day twice for six days a week,—
whether they had ever cast their eyes up and down the
streets that branched out of Dale-street. In the whole of
his (Mr. Gladstone's) experience, he had never yet seen (he
would not be so uncharitable to say that there were not
exceptiOns to what he was about to state,) he had never yet
seen a minister of religion come out of those streets, or go
into them, with the exception of the Roman Catholics.
(Hear, hear, and oh, oh!) He was not there as the advocate.
of the Roman Catholics, but he thought it was due to them
to say he, had frequently seen them in the lanes and streets
where the members of their Church resided.

The MAYOR : I think, Mr. Gladstone, we cannot admit
such an element 'as that into the discussion. I stopped
Mr. Bennett before. We had better avoid religious discus-
sions.

Mr. GLADSTONE was not raising the question of religion.
He was stating whom he had seen
Mr. TYRER : I know there are clergymen who visit those
streets frequently. (Hear. hear, and order.)
Mr. GLADSTONE was speaking of what he had seen him-
self. (Hear hear.)
Mr. TYRER : Clergymen of the Established Church-visited
those streets, and Mr. Gladstone had no right to say other-
wise. (Hear, hear, and order.)
Mr. GLADSTONE was perfectly right in making the state-
ment, which he would vouch for. Mr. Tyrer had no right'to
interrupt him, and- the Mayor would tell him so. He
should then say again to place a bridge over that locality,
where the most wretched beings on the face of the earth
resided; where vice and ignorance, and darkness of mind and
of body, and filth were to be found in abundance, was to
consign them to an everlasting doom. (Oh ! oh ! from a
member.) lam speaking to the point, and I must protest
against being interfered with. Any gentleman can follow
me, and answer me if he can.

The MAYOR observed that he did not hear the interrup-

A MEMBER, whose name we could not catch, said that he
was the gentlemen who had made the 'remark ; and

Mr. GLADSTONE begged that he would not do so again.
He again asserted that, to construct, a high level bridge in
the locality proposed, was to consign its inhabitants to a
doom of eternal disgrace and degradation. That was his
view of the question—every other gentleman could hold
his own; but he thought, that the gulph between the rich
and the poor was sufficiently broad at present, and that
they should not make matters worse than they were. Be-
sides, where they proposed so great an alteration as this,
which would involve a very large sum of money, larger
than they were able to tell at that moment, there should be
one concurrent voice amongst the people in its favour.
Now they knew very well that there . were very great differ-
ences of opinion on that subject.. Again, he had listened to
the remarks that had fallen from Mr. Bennet, and which,
he was free to admit, had been brought before the Council
with the best intentions ; but he was sorry to say that they
did not carry conviction to his mind. He might remark,
that if there were any benefit in the high level bridge, it
would be very much for his, personal interest to advocate it;
but he felt that even if he were benefitted by it,' it would be
injurious and reprehensible in other respects. But let him
remark upon the streets that the Improvement Committee
'proposed to alter. Church-street and Bold-street were both
mentioned by Mr. Alderman Turner and himself on the last
occasion; but these streets were passed over, ,and no notice
taken of them, while such streets as Limekiln-lane, and
Elam, were proposed to be altered and improved. • In con-
clusion, he believed it was, as he,before stated, that the high
level bridge was not only an evil, but that it was un-
necessary—that it could be no improvement whatever; but
that, on-the contrary, such alterations could be made in the
existing streets, as would be highly satisfactory to the public
and meet all the wants, however pressing they might be, of
this great increasing town. - _

Mi.. Alderman PARKER said that, however he might re-
spect the able and distinguished gentleman who had
addressed the Council last, he should differ with him in his
remarks about the Roman Catholic Clergymen.

The MAYOR should stop all further diciiSsion ou that topic,
Mr. Gladstone had ahandoned it; and he should request, that
it would not be persevered in.
. Mr. Alderman PARKER continued to say, he did not agree
'With Mr.—GladstOne on that point; as to the high level
bridge' he felt •the greatest pleasure in supporting- the me-
morial which had been read against it. It was well known
that Shaw's-brow was now perfectly deserted as regarded
traffic compaied to what it Was when thirty or sixty coaches
used to travel over it, and then no such improvement was
ever spoken of. He denied that the railway passengers
would go along the bridge, and he called upon every mem-
ber who represented the north of the town to oppose the
pro j ect.
Mr. THoMPsoN said, that it was understood in' the Im-
provement Committee in 'bringing these recommendations
forward, it was for the Council to' decide which they shoUld
have. (No, no.) He understood it so, and as to the matter
in dispute, much had been said,' but he thought half the
words would have done the business. (Oh, oh, and laughter)
. .

Mr. Pic-ro); said it was observed of old, that in themi.-
titude of councillors there was safety. Whether the coun-
cillors thus mentioned were town councillors or not he could
not .take upon himself.to say, for it seemed they had now got
into such a chaos that it would be extremely difficult to lay
out any plan which would be satisfactory at all. (Hear,
hear.) What with the high level bridge and the low level
roads, and the contentions between tie north and south,
east and west, all pulling in various ways, the result seemed
very likely to be, unless the Council came now to a calm
and deliberate view of the whole affair, as he trusted they
would, that they should do nothing at all. (Hear, hear.)
Under these circumstances, 1 ookingat the very great diver-
sity of opinion, what was the Council to do ? The first thing
he looked to was, what were the improvements required by
present necessity—what were the improvements which were
first required to be done for the benefit of the town ? Se-
condly, .that whatever they did undertake should be
thoroughly done, and that they shoiild have no half improve-
ments at the present day. (Hear, hear.) And, thirdly,
that whatever they undertook should not only be thoroughly
done, but promptly done. (Hear, hear.) If they took
these as the leading points, he did not think they could go
far wrong. The question of the improvement of Shaw's-brow
and Dale-street Was not one of yesterday. The subject had
been before the public foryears, and the Mayor himself, be-
fore he occupied that chair, more than twelve months ago,
had brought the matter forward, and great attention was
given to it at the time, and it had been repeatedly discussed
since, so that its merits must, at the- preseiit moment, be
tolerably well known. Again, the inhabitants of the town
had convened a meeting, at which the Mayor presided. At,
that meeting a committee was formed, representing, it was
supposed, all parties -mid classes, merchants, shopkeepers,
owners of property, and- all thosefwho- felt an interest in
public improvements. That committee had sat repeatedly,

had gone into the Whole question involved, and at great
length, and had at last presented a report: That report,
and the report of their own 'lmprovement Committee, mar-
vellous to say, appeared to be identical ; they both 'Came to
the same conclusion; as regarded the question now before the
Cpuneil. No*, he should like ito )(hew
i in what manner
public Opinioit wins to' be ascertained if t Was not, in the
first instance, by the opinions of the Council who,irepre-
sented the burgesses, or through the inhabitants of the
town- themselves; in public meeting assembled, appointing
a Committee ? In the present instance these two bodies,
elected in their different ways came UT the same eunclngoni
and that conclusion' they had LefOre them in the report of the
Improvement Committee. Now, if they looked to the ques-
tion of what improvement was first negessary, public opinion
at all sides appeared to point to St. George's Hall. That
building was the pride and ornament of their town, and it
was that to which it was quite Clear all future ittiprovements
must have a tendency to centre. That being so, and seeing
that it was also necessary, in order to complete the approach
to it, that. Shaw's-brow should be interfered With to a consi-
derable extent, they were pointed naturally and directly to
the improvement of that locality, Whether it should be .a
Thigh level or low level was, he donsidtred, a mattei of minor
consideration. (Hear, hear.) He was himself of opinion
that the high-level bridge wag the best, bid he was not
bigoted to that view, and, if it could be shewn that any
large number of the owners of property, or the shopkeepers
in the vicinity, would be injured by it, or that the public
opinion of the town was hot in fatour of it, let them then do
the best they could, and carry public opinion along with them
in whatever they did. (Hear, hear.) Therefore if upon
the votes of the Council being taken; it should appear there
was not, he would not say merely a majority, but even a
very large majority, in favour of the high level bridge; he
thought they ought to abandon that project, and fall back
upon making what improvements they could upon the low-
level. (Hear,. hear.) Now, for one moment, let them con-
sider the mode in which the two lines now before the consi-
deration of 'the Council would affect St. George'S Hall,
its approaches and the approaches to the centre of the town
generally. He would not weary the Council by going again
over the ground which had been sufficiently set forth in the
report of the Improvement Committee, but he would just
allude to one or two points incidentally touched upon by Mr.
Gladstone. Whether it arose from want of comprehension
upon his part, or that Mr. Gladstone was prevented by in-
terruption from developing his ideas upon the subject, he
really did not understand that gentlemen when he spoke of
a'high level bridge being a separation between the rich and
the poor. How that could act as a wall of separation which
was merely intended as a means of improving the commu-
nication he was at a loss to know. If it were the case
that the respectable part of the community were not
fond of visiting the abodes of poverty and wretched-
ness in these streets which branched off Dale Street, surely
common sense would seem to indicate that they would be
more likely to visit these places when the access to them was
made more easy. He really could not understand how that
objection was put forward. Again, it was quite clear that
if they could obtain a direct access to the centre of the town,
it .was better, cceteris paribus, than a roundabout one. The
intercourse by Shaw's-brow was the original access.
,to the
town, and other things being equal, there could be no doubt
that it was the shortest and best way to the Town Hall, and
the centre of the town generally. The question then was,
could they improve it and restore it to what it was once, and
the traffic it had lost, in consequence of the difference of
gradient being such that most persons preferred a roundabout
course. The Committee had shewn, and he thought, all
parties agreed, and Mr. Stewart, whose observations were
exceedingly judicious and to the point, had shown, that that
way could be materially improved by making it accessible.
It was not a question that could be decided in a few words.
There were serious difficulties in the way, whether the work
was begun in Whitechapel, Dale Street, or wherever else
they chose. It was a question which gentlemen should de-
cide for themselves, whether an embankment of the thorough-
fare along Byrom Street and Whitechapel, rising five on six
feet, would be a less injury to the property there, and require
less compensation, than if they rode over them with a high
level bridge. Mr. Stewart knew from practical experience,
what had been the cost for compensation in altering the
levels about the docks, and he of course would be able to
come to a conclusion as to what the compensation should be
in streets where the property was infinitely more valuable.
He should for himself confess, that after having heard • all
the arguments, he could not help thinking, taking all things
together, that a high level bridge would be the best plan,
tbut he was not bigoted to that view, and if the Council were
of a different opinion, he should cheerfully co-operate in
carrying on the improvements by the low level. (Hear,
hear). With regard to the street from Moorfields, round
by Roe Street, to the south front of St. George's Hall, he
thought it was a project which if carried out would be highly
beneficial. There was a very great deficiency in that town as
regarded lateral communication between the
,great_ leading
thoroughfares. The route from Dale Street to Whitechapel,
or Church Street, was very circuitous, and passed through a
very unpleasant neighbourhood, and that district more than
any other required to be opened, that the fresh breeze of
heaven should be permitted "to blow into it, and more
than any otherrequired that light should be let into itthat the
property there should be directed to other purposes and
better ends than it now was. (Hear, hear). He thought
these ends would be well obtained by the proposed street,
and he would accordingly support the plans for carrying it
through. With regard to the memorial, which, when
displayed in that room looked like a suspension bridge, and
such it was intended to be with regard to their high level
bridge, he thought the gentlemen were a great deal too sensi-
tive
-as to the injury which they anticipated. Let it be re-
membered that access, by means of the intended improve—
ment, would be made. very, much better from Dale-street
than it ever had been. The only property which could, by
possibility, be in wouldbe thatlyingbetweenthe corner of
Dale-street andthe bottom ofManchester-street,and if it could
be seen that any serious injury was inflicted upon the owners of
that property'or the occupiers, they would have a fair claim for
compensation for such injury. He would say, in conclusion,
that there was abundant necessity for something being done,
and being done promptly, and whatever might be the opinion
of the majority in that Council, he trusted they would not
be led by any predilections for either the high level or the
low level, to do anything which might frustrate their going
to Parliament with a bill in the ensuing session. The com-
pletion of St. George's Hall, required that something should
be done. They also wished to carry out the plan for the
foundation of, a Museum and Library, and he trusted also
that they would have upon the north side of Shaw's Brow
the salt water baths, instead of their being, as they now
were, in the most objectionable position possible. Taking
all these things into consideration, itwould be seen that there
was a necessity for going before Parliament this session, and
he trusted, whatever might be the decision, that the Council
would all co-operate in carrying out faithfully any plans
which might meet the concurrence of the majority. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. GARDNER begged to offer
.a suggestion, in order that
they might be unanimous. If the chairman of the com-
mittee, Mr. Bennett, would waive the question of the high
level, he felt convinced they would be unanimous upon all
the other points, and would go before Parliament without
any difference of opinion (hear, hear).
Mr. John B. LLOYD said he had been an advocate with
Mr. Gladstone for the widening of that part of Church
Street between Paradise Street and St. Peter's Church. He
had advocated that question last year, when it was. before
the consideration of the Improvement Committee, and also
that year, but he was led from financial circumstances to
abandon it in the committee, and he should say for the
information of the gentlemen there, that only upon that
ground was it abandoned for the present. The chief point to
which the Council were now bound to give every consider-
ation was how Shaw's brow was to be altered. He thought
everybody was of opinion that some alteration ought to be
made there, and he thought the Councillshould beunanimous
in order to avoid any delay in going to Parliament this
session, particularly after the memorial which had
been presented by persons who stated themselves to be owners
of property in the vicinity, and acquainted with the necessity
for some alteration. He thought the council was bound to
give the memorialists every consideration before any stepS
were taken. He agreed with Mr. Picton that it was a minor
consideration how the alteration was effected, if the Council
were unanimous, as the memorialists appeared to be, in
coming to the decision that the alteration should be made.
Let them decide that day that it should be done, but not by
means of a bridge, and thus soothe the apprehensions of all
the gentlemen who signed the memorial. It would be very
easy then to carry the improVements through Parliament.
With that view, and seeing the difficulties with which they
had to contend, not only here but hereafter, and as they were
all unanimously agreed that some alteration should take
place, he would suggest that it be left as an instruction to
the Improvement Committee to carry it out, but not by
means of a bridge.

Mr. Joirsseoistrongly recommended the adoption of the
amendment propoSed by Mr. Bigham.
Mr. Howe:4 concurred in that opinion, from the strong
feeling.which had been expressed by the Council,'and by the
-memorialists, he *add confess that he was not himself
influenced by any one of the speeches which had been
delivered, as to the non-necessity of the High Level Bridge,
because he thought it would be a very great advantage, and
he would say more, that it would cost much less than the
other proposed improvement.. But finding that the public
in the neighbourhood had presented a strong memorial
against it —whether right or wrong was another question--
as he stood there a representative only, and anxious to do his
duty fairly, he should give his vote in accordance with the
opinion of the majority.
Mr. HOLME felt extremely sorry to differ from a gentle-
man of such experience as Mr. Stewart, but he could not let •
that opportunity slip, of protesting, as one individual, against
the abandonment of the High Level Bridge. No one was
more willing to pay deference to such a petition as had been
laid upon their table that day than he was, but he would
never give up his opinion, when he believed that it was an
honest and a right one. When the argument was employed
that Shaw's-brow was not used, he asked what was the rea-
son that it was not used ? Wasit not because it was totally
inaccessible, and that neither cars, carts, nor any other des-
cription of vehicle could use it. (Hear, hear) ? Mr. Par-
ker stated that cars going to the railway always went round
the other way. What was the reason ? Did not the Cor-
poration make Manchester-street, and by that means give a
much easier approach, and therefore, cars made use' of that I
street, instead of what ought to be the direct line of route.

Ile thought the petitioners were quite wrong in their
opinions, and he should be vety glad to meet a deputation of
them any time. Instead of a High Level Bridge being an in-
jury; he believed conscieniieusly that if it were not made,
the vicinity would be very considerably injured, inasmuch as
the
,grcat press of traffic which now found its way to the bot-
tom a Dalt-street, *odd be entirely diverted. With re-
gard to the raising of Byrom-street, he 1'6.8 greatly astonished,
after the trouble Mr. Ste wart httd himself experienced in
the numerous claims which were made upon tho Dock Com-
mittee for compensation, that he should advocate that
jecf ) and he should like to know whether the very parties
who signed the memorial, would not be the parties to claim
a very large compensation from the Council in case the level
was altered now.

Mr. ST-AWART begged to say that hp had been misunder-
stood: He was not an advocate for the altering of Byroinx
streets

ttoLiut said at any rate to make Shaw's Brow acces-
sible could not be done without raising Byrom-street, other-
wise all the improvement would be thrown away. He 'Con-
tended that if the high level bridge were constructed, it
Would. benefit the property of the Corporation itself. If
there was one advantage more than another it was that it
prevented the cross traffic of the two thoroughfares. If any
one went to the bottom of Lord-street, or any of the princi-
pal thoroughfares, he would see at once the advantage which
a high level bridge would poSsess in preventing the danger-
ous cross . traffic. The only thing in which he did not agree
With the proposal brought forward by the Improvement
Committee, was, that he did not think they were making the
best use of the high level, and he could not help thinking
that an improvement might be made by having access to botli
streets, and that the inhabitants of Byrom-street would be
very conSiderably improved if they had a much better access
out of byrom.streei into Dale-street. He would urge upon
them all to consider seriously before they gave their votes
to prevent what he conscientiously believed, if carried out,
would be one of the greatest improvements.which ever took
place in the town of Liverpool.
Mr. GEORGE • Hour said there was a period when he should
have agreed with the last speaker, when thirty-six coaches
were leaving every day and returning in that direction, and
frequent accidents took place, whic would have rendered
some improvement of the sort necessary. At that time
Shaw's Brow was also- much steeper. But to meet these in-
conveniences Manchester-street had been made, which offered
an easy access. A slight raising could be made at the bot-
tom without any compensation whatever, and which wonld
greatly improve the effect of St. George's Hall. He did

riot think the high level bridge was at all called for. It was
undesirable in itself, and he saw no necessity for it. He did
not see what they would gain by it : there was no object to
fight for. He, was of opinion that the other improvement
suggested would be quite sufficient for locomotion, and in
every other way, and would vastly improve St. George's
Hall, in addition to the other buildings which were con-
templated in the same vicinity, and to the architectural effect
of which a bridge would be rather an obstruction. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. BENNETT replied, and in the course of his observa-
tions reminded the Council that the question had been
referred back to the Improvement Committee, principally
upon the subject of the high level and the low level at
Shad's-brow. In dealing with, the subject, all that could
be said pro et con. was said, and, in coming to a vote, they
were unanimous, with the exception of two or three mem-
bers, in recommending the high level in preference to the
level. He had been asked to withdraw his opposition,
and to endeavohr to induce the Committee to withdraw their
opposition to the carrying of the low level. Now, he thought
that would not attain the - object which the Committee had
in cominc, before the Council ; they wished- to know the
feeling of the Council upon it, which of course would go-
vern them to 'a great measure, and he should therefore much
piefer going to a vote upon .the question, .merely saying that
the Committee, after the best and fullest consideration they
could give it, had decided.upon the high level in preference
to the other.

The MAYOR then put the amendment, which was carried
by a majority of 35 to 11.
For the amendment—Messrs. Aked, Anderson, Woodruff,
Thomson, Bigham' Nicholson, Bradley, Moss, Holden,
' M'Guffie Godfrey, Tyler, Holt,- Avison, Banner, Jeffreys,
M'Nicoll, Tobin, Fleming, Brancker, Gardner, Gladstone,
Lloyd, Johnson, Houghton, Hodson, Beckwith, Henderson,
Stewart ,'• Itoydon, Halhead, Langsdale, Preston, Parker,
Wood, Turner.

Against it—Messrs. Littledale, Holme, Gladstone, Toul
in, Clayton, Wagstaff, Picton, Wood, Bennett, Sir . Bunt
tho Mayor.

Mr. nIGHAM would wish to have it understood how the
money was to be raised. It had been stated that there were
not funds sufficient to complete St. George's Hall and other
works ; and while these were incomplete, he did not know
how they could commence any new scheme. Let it be dis-
tinctly understood, that he did not intend to oppose the im-
provement, although he considered there were many schemes
far more useful to be attempted. in the town. Before they
went about improving the approaches to the town, there
were objects of utility which were far more important.
(Hear, hear.) They had now to double their medical staff in
order to meet the approach of cholera ; and there were many
nuisances which must be removed, by the opening of
thoroughfares in densely populated localities. There were
'such places to be improved. as Vauxhall-road, Addison-street,
and all that densely populated district, where very few of
those present ever went, and which was as great a sink of
dirt, filth, and nuisance, as could possibly be imagined. He
believed if they were to attempt to get rid of cholera, and to
cleanse the town, they would appropriate any surplus they
might ••have to better advantage, than by turning their
thoughts to the pleasure of the people who lived outside the
town, and who wished to hive beautiful approaches to it.
Not one single iota of advantage would be derived by the poor,
by the inhabitants of the town, or by the health of the town,
through the improvement proposed, and therefore he would
much rather the Committee should have directed their at-
tention to the useful in preference to the decorative. (Hear,
hear.) He feared he should be scarcely likely to get many
supporters there, if he were to move an amendment; but he
thought they should be informed by the Improvement Com-
mittee, where and how they were to raise the finances. The
necessity for the improvement should be very apparent before
they asked the inhabitants for a rate. If they taxed the in-
habitants, they should tax all ; and as the decorations to the
approaches of the town were only for the benefit of those out
of it, they_should at least be called upon to pay a portion of it,

Air. Alderman TURNER moved, that it be an instruction to
the Committee to take into consideration the widening of
Church-street, between Paradise-street and Parker-street,
provided funds were available. He thought that a work of
great necessity, and he was certain that they need not anti-
cipate any objection whatever to it from the Archdeacon and
Rector of the church.

MR. GLADSTONE seconded the motion.
Mr. JEFFREYS called attention to the necessity for widen-
ing Bark-lane. Hopes had been held out to the inhabitants
of the neighbourhood, that it should be one of the first im-
provements made.
Mr. GODFREY suggested that Oldhall-street should be
also included. (Laughter.)
_ _

Mr. TOULMII.,I thciught 'it right that Park-lane should be
taken into consideration in the first instance.

Mr PICTON. would implore of the Council not to go too
far as yet. The effect. of their doily, So would be to frus-
trate their going to 'Parliament at all, and they would be
again the laughing-stock of the whole community.. (Hear,
hear.) If they appointed an Improvement Committee, and
left it to them to consider and report upon the improve-
ments which they considered necessary, it was too much
for gentlemen to get up upon the spur of the moment, and
say they proposed the substitution of such and such other
improvements. (Hear, hear.) No gentleman could know
better than Mr.. Turner did, that if such instructions as
those now proposed were given to the Committee, and
sanctioned by the Council, the result would be. to prevent
them from going to Parliament at all that year. He would
request of gentlemen, if they did not wish to be placed in
the invidious position of obstructing everything the Council
wished to do, that they would refrain from heaping any
more burthens upon the bill, and remember that it was-the
last 'ounce, according to the proverb, which broke the
horse's back.

Mr. dlonsox• was quite satisfied that there was not the
slightest intention upon the part of the Council to go to
Parliament at all, ir they could possibly avoid it. It was
what had. not occurred in Liverpool for a long time. Of the
necessity for improvement there could not be the slightest
doubt, but, when certain committees had deliberated upon
the improvements, and determined to go to Parliament for
them, some gentlemen were determined to obstruct them in
every instance, and, whether the improvements were of the
greatest possible necessity or not, they rose and offered every
opposition. In regard to Mr. Turner's notice, he thought
there was no part of the'town which required less alteration,
after the alteration had been made in the bottom of Dale-
street, than Chiirch-street. They had been told by Mr.
Bigham of places where filth and disease existed, and that
the Corporate body ought to look to those places first. He
fully agreed with Mr. Bigham, who had never spoken nearer
to the truth in his life (laughter). He should protest
against gentlemen coming there, and, after a committee had
been appointed at a public towns-meeting, and after another
committee had been appointed by the Council, and after both
had met, day after day, considered the question with great
anxiety, and brought forward' a report, rising up in that room
to:make other propositions, and throwing every obstacle in the
way of the committee.

the MA.YOR wished to call' the attention of the Corpora-
tion to the real state of things. If they took out £90,000
for the high-level, there was then something. about £250,000
which they were about sanctioning. In addition, there was
an instruction moved by 111 r: Turner, and seconded by Mr.
Gladstone, for the widening of Church-'street, and it was
quite competent and quite in order, to move another resolu-
tion regarding Park-lane. They would get to £400,000, or
nearly half a million, if they went on in that way, and there-
fore, the . question was now become a very serious one, and
he wished the Council to understand it.

Mr. BENNui-r denied that the improvement recommended
by the Committee was merely for the accommodation of mem-
bers of the Council, without having any sanitary effect, and
proposed that the street as recommended, be adopted.
Mr. GARDNER seconded the motion.

Mr. BANicpu objected to the manner in which the motion
had been brought forward at the close of the municipal year
instead of at any early period. They were' now forced to come
to a decision, as otherwise there would not be time to go to

Parliament. He the Irtitation been taken into conSidera-
tion at die commencement of the municipal year he was of
opinion that they would have come to a very differeAt de-
cision from that whisk they were now asked to adopt. The
improvement to St. George's Hall was very desirable, but lie
doubted very much whether the line 'marked out was the
best. He believed a shorter , line bould be' devised at less
expense, and cutting through quite as objectionablc,property,
but there was not time to think of these things when they
were driven, as in the present instance, to the very last mo-
ment: He expressed his approval of the proposed im-
lirdvempt to Church-street, than which, he thought; a
greater iniprovement could not be made to property generallfi
and to the town;

The MAYOR then put Mr, Bennett's motion, which was
carried without opposition.
Mr. BENNETT proposed the next portion of the recommen-
dations of the Committee, referring to Water-street, Lime-
kiln-lane! and Bevington-bush, which were also car-
ried: .

Mr; TURNER'S motion regarding Church-street, condi-
tional upon their being funds to carry it out, was also put and
carried.

Mr. lEFFREVS then moved the addition of an instruction
regarding Park-lane.
Mr. TOIILMIN seconded the motion,

Mr. M'MIoLL thought Mr. Jeffreys' proposition entitled
to very serions consideration. Although it was very impor-
tant that they should widen public thoroughfares and ap-
proaches to the town/ he thought the most serious considera-
tion should be given to the inipthvement of such a place .as
Perk-lane;

The motion was put, after some discussion, and thrown out
by a majority of 24 to 20.
For the- motion , Messrs: Woodruff; Thomson, Bradley,
Moss, Tyrer, Holme, Jeffrey s/ John Gladstone, Jun., Toul-
min Clayton, wagstaff, Fleming, Tipton, Henderson,
Boyden, Halhead, John Nelson Wood, and the Mayor.
Against the motion : Messrs. Aked, Bigham, iNichelson,
MeGuffie, Godfrey, Littledale, Holt, Avison, Banner,
Braneker, Gardner, Lloyd, Johnson, Houghton, Hodson,
Wood, Beckwith, Stewart, tingsdale, Bennett, Preston,
Parker, Turner, and Sir John Bent.

ST. GEORGE'S HALL COMMITTEE

The proceedings of this Committee were read

Mr. Y. B. LLOYD said he saw from the Mayor's com-
munication there was a letter from Mr. Cockerell, who had
attended at the last meeting, and perhaps this was the
proper time to have it read. On the letter of Mr. Booth
being referred to the Committee, they immediately had a
meeting with Mr. Booth, and copies of his letters were
forwarded to Mr. Cockerell. Since the meeting they had
last week, having discussed the question with Mr. Cockerell,
he thought the letter which had • been received from him
would bring the whole subject before the Council.
The TOWN CLEitx. then read the following letter ,
" TO TIIR LAW COURTS COMMITTEE, ST. GEORGE'S-HALL, AT

LIVERPOOL.

"Bank of England, Sept. 28, 1853.
" GENTLEmtN,----Inferring from your minute of the 19th
instant, and from the transmission of Mr. Booth's ldtters, upon
two prominent and serious defects,' to whiN that gentle-
man now confines his criticisms, in the design of the podium
and steps of the south portico of St. George's-hall, submitted
by me in April, 1849, subsequently approved by the commit-
tee and Council, and executed forthwith by your orders ; that
a written and concise reply may be acceptable to you, I beg
leave to offer it accordimgly.
" The tardiness of these criticisms, only now before the
Council; and the great cost of gratifying their object, by any
alterations now to be undertaken, render them a purely
gratuitous occupation of time to all parties ; still, I shall
always be glad, and do hold myself ready, at all times, to -give
account of the advice I have at any time submitted to you,
although long ago sanctioned by your judgment and adoption,
and by the acquiescence of public opinion.
" The first defect is very erroneously described as ' an in-
cision between the columns of the south portico converting a
circular base into a square pedestal,' because, in fact, the
base is circular, and not converted into a square; a plinth is
added to it, as usual, and, of course, square, together with a low
style-bate, not unusual, but on the contrary, sanctioned by
authorities, classical and modern, in examples familiar to every
connoisseur. It is satisfactory, however, to the committee and
myself, as showing in its untechnical statement the absence of
any professional and learned co-operation in Mr. Booth's
amateur criticisms.

" The committee will remember the difficulty of the
problem left by my accomplished predecessor ; namely, a
proper, spacious and' handsome descent from this portico to
the street, in the very limited space allotted for that purpose;
and that, after consideration had of the expedient adopted,
or the crippling of the steps and landings in its solution, the
former was adopted finally, and without scruple, seeing that
it was sanctioned by examples, classical and modern, of the
greatest weight and sufficency,

" Those classical examples are.—the Temple of Jupiter
Tonans, in the Roman Forum,—the Temple at Asisi,— the
Besilica at Pompii,—the Propylea of Athens, &c., &c.
'• Those modern examples are,—the north and south porticos
of St. Paul's Cathedral—the portico of the Indian-house—the
portico of the new Post-office—the portico of the Lyceum at
Liverpool and that at Manchester, &c., &c., all works of great
masters • shewing that in the balance of use and convenience
with nther weighty considerations, this so-called defect is of
frequent occurance in the most authorative examples.
• " The second defect refers to the double steps' at the
angles of the portico.
" The Greeks objected to the use of steps, in the ordinary
sense of convenient risers of six or seven inches high, as defi-
cient in dignity and solidity, when in juxta-position with
massive columns and entablatures. The steps employed by
them constituted a distinct feature of architecture, called
itilobate, and were three in number, always proportioned to
the' diameter of the Coltimn, and, therefore, varying with that
diaitteter, and never considered as steps of use, which were
supplied by subordinate steps, or an indirect plane. That in
the great temple, the Olympeum, at Athens, the step is 2 feet
7 inches. In the Parthenon it is 1 foot 8 inches high. In
the Temple of Theseus it is 1 foot 2 inchei high ; and in the
small Temple on the Illissns it is only 10 inches high.
" A little consideration will show the great sense of this
practice, and the defect of the modern and common-place
practice of tlfe accumulation of this and laminated steps, 'as
supports, and in juxta-position with the magnificent and solid
columns which are employed in St. George's-hall, and 'their
total want of harmony with the bulk, solidity; and dignity, with
the noble material exhibited in this great work.

" Although the great Italians have in general followed the
Roman practice, which differed in this particular from the
Greeks, yet the force of this last argument has been interest-
ingly felt by some of them, especially by Vignola in his theatre
at Parma.

" I forbear to trouble you with other reasons in favour of
the system employed, which, together with those explained
above, are obvious to the cennoisseur,. all which, I am happy
to believe, have been, during these four years, unquestioned
by my learned bretheren in Liverpool, and acquisced in by
them as reasonable and sound. My refusal to answer the
cavils of amateur individuals, anonymously printed, or per-
sonally declared, unless before a professional and competent
tribunal, or, at your request, as I now infer it to be, will, I am
sure, be easily understood and admitted. If the professional
advice I have had the very great honour to submit to your
judgment and consideration had been inadequate, you gen-
tlemen, by the admission of the town and council of Liverpool,
and certainly, according to my experience at all times, were
perfectly competent to set me right, and most assuredly
zealous, at all times, to fulfil the arduous and responsible
duties you have undertaken, and have so successfully carried
out to the present moment, and I have the honour to be,
gentlemen, your obedient and humble servant,

" C. R. COCKERELL."

Mr. LLOYD continued to say, that all he had now to do,
was to move the confirmation of the proceedings, and he
thought the best answer to Mr. Booth was to send him a
copy of Mr. Cockerell's letter. The Committee could not
deal with it further. He begged to move the confirmation
of the proceedings.
Mr. STEWART said, if he understood Mr. Lloyd'right, he
stated that there was to be an end to the matter. He, (Mr.
Stewart) certainly hoped the matter would not end there,
and he thought the mode of dealing with the subject was
not exactly what they wanted. (Hear, hear.) They might
fairly question whether the steps were so disposed, as to
look as well as they might. He regretted they should be
answered by quoting ancient examples. -
Mr. LLOYD : And modern, too.

Mr. STEWART : And modern ; but if it were meant to
convey to the Council, that it was adopted as the only mode
consistent with good taste and convenience, he differed from
that opinion. They adopted the course from necessity. No
such incision was made at the northern end, because they
were not the same pressing reasons on account of space.
Therefore, it was quite evident from that, if the architect
had the opportunity, he would not cut into the pedestal and
columns. The architect had great difficulties to contend
with, and without any imputation on hii taste or skill; he
might-fairly admit the remarks of Mr. Booth, without at all
imagining there was any question about his classical know-
ledge, or his great skill. Whatever there might be in that
learned letter, he (Mr. Stewart) wanted to know what they
had to do with it, because Greeks placed certain plints on
pedestals, which gave two feet seven inches of steps, which
in point of fact, were not steps at all, or were never meant
to represent steps,—and he (Mr. Stewart) contended that
the appearance of the southern portico of St. George's Hall
might be very much improved, and that the admixture of
steps, with double steps, gave it a very awkward and
inconvenient appearance, by presenting so many horizontal
lines which were anything but pleasing to his .eye. He
(Mr. Stewart) did not intend to call in question either the
judgment or taste of Mr. Cockerill ; but at the same time
he contended it was the duty of the Council to give, and of
the architect to take any suggestions coming in a respectful
form, and the Committee and the Council were quite com-
petent to pass their judgment on those steps (hear, hear).
The MAYOR : It is understood a copy of this letter is to
be sent to Mr. Booth.

The proceedings were then confirmed.
MARKETS COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the committee contained a recom-
mendation to appoint Andrew Tyrrell an inspector of
slaughter-houses and meat in the borough, and the adoption
of, the following bye-laws :—" That no person shall cause
any obstruction in, along, or access to, or access any thorough-
fare' within the borono,•by selling, or offering for sale, any
article or thing therein, and this Committee do approve that