The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-19 00:00:00

DRAINAGE ADVANCES.

The house then went into committee, on the motion of
the CHANCELLOR of the EX ;HEQUER, for the pur-
pose of authorising the Lords of the Treasury to advance
3,000.0001. on loan for draining purposes c yntcted with the
improvement of landed pryer:7. The right hon. gentleman
said the resolution bad Ibsen framed in the most general
term., as he thought it hest that no discussion should take
place until the bill cams btlove the house. He felt great
pleasure, however, in being able to state that he was in pos-
ses.ion of abuodant proofs io writing that the advances
made in different parts of the kingdom had been most bene-
ficial.

Major BLACKALL wished to know whether by sereeinc
to the resolution the house would preclude itself from after-
wards extending the application of tte money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the re-
solution was so large in its terms as to include any purpaus
connected with the improvement of landed propery.
Mr. HILDYARD wished to know whether the sums re-
paid would be put down to the credit of the income of the

Coontry.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
no such repayments bad, so far as he wu aware, ever been
put to the credit of Whenever the repayments ex-
ceeded the advances, the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the
time being would of eourse be justified in applying the sue
plus to the reduction of the nation:l debt.
Mr. FRENCH wished to call the attention of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer to abuses of the public many which
had taken place in Ireland with respect to arterial drainage.
Mr. HAMILTON thought it desirable that the bill under
which the money wee advanced should undergo amend-
ment. . .

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
resolution did not pledge the house to coy particular app.i-
cation.

Mr. V. SMITH winked to know how the advasces wei

to he diatr.bnead.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
would be iacinvenient to eater into details. At Scotland
had obtained 1,600,0001. out of the 2,000,0001. advanced
before, he proposed that 1,500,0001. be reserved for
England, and if that sum should not all be taken up in this
country, applications might be received for the remnindar
from the other aide of tee Tweed. He quite agreed that
there ought to be some consideration as to the bast mode of
distribution, and that the money ought net to ho. advanced in
such large sums as ►efore. The advances should be made on
the same terms as before. . .

—Mr. FORBES hoped precautions wculd be taken evilest
fa•are abuse in Ireland. - -

Mr. SCULLY thought the hon. member ought not to for-
get the &etch jobs; for example, the Caledonian Canal.
Mr. MONSELL would suggest to the right hun. gentle-
Ina 4 that before this questien,wu again introduced he should
lay cm the table the remonstrances of proprietors of land who
had been taxed for arterial drainer..
Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, hon.
members should bear in mind that it was quite impasible for
the Treasury to exercise control over drainage works in mat-
ters of detail in every part of Ireland. (Hear.)
Mr. A. STAFFORD had always felt that then wen dis-
advantages attending these, advances, and for that reason be
had not himself borrowed a single farthing. The right hon.
gentlemen now admitted that the Treasury could exerciai
no control over the expenditure. It must glens bo so when
the government stepped out of its course.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said what
he had stated was, that the T ry could not, in matters of
detail, control the Beard of Works. (Hear, hear.) As to
the government stepping out of its course, he must remind
the hewn that before any advances were made, appeal after
appeal was made to the government by Irish members, who
said that landlords would never agree amongst each other,
sad that drainage would never be executed on a large
scale without the interference of the legialature. (11,:ar,
hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said it was stated in evidence to the
committee on miscellaneous expenditure that the Board of
Works we. overlooded with duties.
Mr. GROGAN said that nothing could do more to better
the condition of Ireland and give employment than the
grant which had been proposed by government, but he
thought that the attention of the government ought to be
particularly directed to the sinking of the small tributary
riven in Ireland.
Mr. TRELAWNY protested -against the system of
voting grants for the purposes of drainage. A vast deal of
inoonvenieue arose out of votes of that kind.
The O'GORMAN MAHON said that this money was
lent on gcod security. The security indeed was so good that
the house was satisfied to grant a loan to that port of the
kingdon, which, as the Chancellor of the Exch. quer bad
said, and paid better than any ether pntion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FORBES denial that he had been actuated by any
au.feelina towards Ireland in the ,remarks which he had
made, as had boon insinuated by the hon. member for
Tipperary.
Mr. BRIGHT said that before this matter passed through
committee, he would ask to be allowed to say that a ,me
months ago he had been in • part of Ir. land, where these
drainage works were being carried ea. He had spent some
days is going over some of the y
expensive works, and he WAD
hound to sa that the mode in which they were being carried
on was, as It appeared to him, exceedingly satisfactory. He
was now talking of Cousins', Galway, and some other
portions of the west of Ireland. He did net agree with
the hon. Member fur Tavistock with manna to these loess,
and he was bound to say that the expenditure of the Board
of Works had la many parts been productive of great
advantage. (Hear.)
Colonel CHATTERTON said that he was glad to hear
that the government had sent an engineer to Ireland to in-
spect the operations of the Boards of Works, which had in
that country been very unpopular and tyrannies'.
The mulattoes were *on sweet% to, and leave was give

se Wag is a bill. The hones having resumed went into
Goinesittie on
PARLIAMENTARY 'VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL,
Oa Manse 7 being proposed,
Mr. NONSELL said that at present the state of the con-
atitseneies was to be depleted, and wee open to serious
'Wootton, Inasmuch se ft led to bribery, corruption, sad
sorer, vice which, even under the best system of representa-
tive, it wee difficult to avoid. What he wanted was to
press an the government the absolute necessity, under the
eirenesstanees of the ogee of applying to Ireland the Mile
principle which was applied to Wales and Scotland. He
hoped that during the Easter rectos the government would
°Derider the question, and would produce some scheme
whereby Ireland would in that respect be placed In the
same position es England sad Scotland.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if he was to understand that
the hen. gentleman wished that certain boroughs might be
sombiaird, for the purples of Machin the number of mem-
bers to porliarthat, he would have serious objections to such
a course ; but Rho meant that each of the present repreeen-
tad,e boroughs should form the head or centre of other
contributory boroughs, so as to make en incense in the
ennati.noneme, it would he well worthy of consideration.
With rapid to the propositkin of the hoe. gentleman, there
would be many difficulties, both in principle and detail ;
but he did not see that there could be any prominent
objection to it. He would not be justified in saying that
he would oppose it when it may be brought forward ; and
he would observe that daring the recess the question would
he orposidered, and he would endeavour to collect every in-
formation on the matter to lay before the government
before they should take any decisive steps with regard to it.
Sir D J. NORREYS said that he objected to the proposi-
tion which had been made by the hon. member for Limerick,
es he thought that it would have the effect of depriving the
counties of the intelligence of many of the towns. He was
afraid that the hoe. member who suggested the plan was
personally interested in the matter.
After a few words in explanation from Mr. Moresace,
Mr. F. FRENCH said that the plan proposed by the
hon. member for Limerick would secure intelligent and
respectable constituencies. He himself intended to propose
• clause to the same effect, but after the promise made by
. he noble lord that he would consider the matter, he thought
it unnecessary to do so.
Col. RAWDON complained that under this bill the
constituencies would be reduced to one-half
Mr. OSBORNE said that this suggestion, like every
other which had come from the hon. member for Limerick,
was for the benefit of Ireland. No member who sat in that
house had the welfare of Ireland more at heart than he (Mr.
Monsen) had. He thought that he was deserving of the
thanks of the house for the suggestion which he had made.
He thought that it was one which the government would do
well to consider, not only with regard to Iceland, but with
regard to this country. By uniting some of the boroughs
they would do much to produce purity of elec-
tion. As an instance of the impurity of elections,
he brought forward the case of New Ross, which
since the time of the Reform Bill had not more
than 190 electors. At present it had no more than 80, and
under the 81. system of rating that number would come
down to 60. They, however, kept up this borough, return.
ing one member to parliament, when they could, by joining
to it Eoniscorthy, be sure of a highly respectable consti.
tuency. He thought it hardly lair fur the hon. baronet, the
member for Mallow, to say that the hon. member for
Limerick was actuated by personal views.
Sir D. J. NORREYS explained.
Mr. GROGAN said that he understood from the noble
lord that, though the government would consider this matter,
they would not pledge themselves to bring in a bill with
regard to it. He hoped, however, that wb'n the noble
lord had an opportunity of giving his attention to the suet
ject be would he prepared to introduce a bill.
Mr. SADLEIR said that he had heard with satisfaction
whai had fallen from the noble lord, and hoped they soon
would have an extension of the borough constituencies.
Colonel CHATTERTON asked what they could expect
more from this bill than they had got in the last. At the
late election for Cork, there appeared on the list of voters
3,244 perthes, of that number only 1.277 voted, out of
which he had • majority of 206 protectionists.
Mr. REYNOLDS understood the proposition of the hon.
member for Limerick to be this, that all boroughs in Ire-
land having less than 300 constituents should have some
neightstering towns associated with them. He would call
the attentions:olth* house to the case of Portarlington, which,
under this bill, if it passed, would have 110 persons
rated to the relied the poor at 81. ; and the constituency of
Portarlington would be reduced to 88. The hon. and learned
member for Portarlington said that there would te, under
the 81. qualification, more than 75. If he was correct, it was
necessary that Portarhington should be reformed. In his
judgment the house ought to adopt the proposition, or they
ought to threw the representation of Portarlington into the
Qu' en'. County at large. Cashel, which under the rew law
would only have 130 persons qualified to vote, should be
aseocia'ed with Thurles and other important towns.
Under the provisions of this bill he believed there
would be a sufficient number of qualified voters
not to endanger the strength of Tipperary, which had always
been remarkable for sending independent members to the
house. He was reminded that Tipperary had returned the
Muter of the Mint by a majority of SO; he was returned at
the time he had imposed upon him a lucrative taciturnity.
Recognising him as the living leader of the Irish people, he
should be sorry any combination of eircumstaaces should
arise that should diminish his supporters in that or soy other
county. It would be no loss whatever to associate with
Dundalk the patriotic town of Arden. They had all heard
of patriotism on the part of the borough of Athlone. It
appeared it would not suffer in independence by associating
it with Roecommon on the one ede and Moat on the other.
He thought there ought to be an adoption of the suggtrion
of the hon. member for Limerick.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE was understood to ssy that, as
regarded the effect of this proposal of the hon. member for
Limerick, all that was required would be effected by
this bill.
Mr. FAGAN wished the noble ltrd to allow the people of
Ireland to pay attention to this difficult and doubtful point.
lie admitted that every means should be adopted to enlarge
the franchise in these borough.. If the proposition of the
hon. member for Limerick were adopted it would weaken
the constituency in tl e counties of Ireland.
Mr. HAMILTON thought it was advisable to prevent
the enormous anomaly of the county constituency ; whilst
this measure would have the effect rather of diminishing
than iucressing the constituency in boroughs.
Mr. STAFFORD observed that hon. members had been,
with great liberality, allotting certain small towns to • bo-
rough constituency.
The clause was then agreed to.
Metre 8 being proposed,
Mr. FAGAN moved to add the fallowing proviso : " Pro-
vided always, that nothing herein contained shall deprive
those who may be registered under the said recited sot within
right years previous to the let day of Dec tuber next ensu-
ing while they continue to poseeas the qualification in re-
spect to which they were registered, of the same right of vo-
ting ateny election of • member or members to serve in
parliament for.. Is/ city, town, or borough, as it
this act had not
Sir W. SOMENTI—LLE said that whit the hon. member
now proposed was entirely opposed to the principle alt the
bill. If be would turn to the 12th clause, he would see on
what principle it was affirmed that no person was to vote
unless he was registered under this act. The freemen would
he obliged to come forward and register under the act. That
was all that was required as to other persons. The present
101. voters would be obliged to come forward and register
under the act. It was not in his power to accede to the
proviso.
Mr. BRIGHT thought the right bon. gentleman lost
eight ef one material point in the objection he raised to the
imetion of his hon. friend; he said that the house had decided a
eertsin way as to counties, and his hon. friend wished them
to decide another way as to boroughs This bill in many
boroughs was alleged to be quite certain to diminith the
number of electors, and it appeared to him likely to
be the case. It was a serious thing is pas. a blip
to disfranchise anybody where corruption had not
been (moved. H. hoped the Secretary fur Ireland would
air sumnorily dismiss the case, as the proparitiou was quite
reasonable.
Mr. F. Emmen and Col. D UNTIE supported the proviso.
Mr. G. A HAMILTON feared the proviso would have
the effect of making the votes it sought to preserve from the
operation of the bill perpetual. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that the words as if the at had
not posed " would prevent such en effect.
The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the proviso 33
Against it
The clause was then agreed to ; as were thieves 9, 10, 11,
12, 13, and 14, with sundry unopposed amendments.
Oa clause 1.5.
S r R. FERGUSON moved the omission of certain words,
the effect of which would be te do away with the lists framed
by the clerks of the house or other persons. He wished to
me every man having • right to vote placed upon the regis-
ter, there to remain until removed by disqualification.
mit"T.g.hitse.traATTihonTeoAbßicrlt,EwaYaiG mode
framedE N EwhrtiAcuhpoL
wnoubjtechdete2td...dtgoii:mhheoprea,mrsaaeuntgiadh:
factory as well as less expensive than the county regis-
tration.
Mr. VESBY said that this clause would make the bill
anything but • boon to the Irish voter.
B.r G. GREY this of opinion that means should he taken
to give the franchise without the necessity of a claim on the
part of the voter.
After an observation from Mr. Vaalilr,
bet b
spr
lAp.:l
.LT EDI ft
wouldthought
be that
the thevirt virtual
stnhceh Loom.
smnet of
Major BLACKALL feared that the effect of putting
liked it or not would be
iia."womP"Miad:_ifids.ubknaHe
stfjperlregiii!ii;,raniehitiaTtLthehireDgteyrwteoethipenee:y.rithrtatraseioptentp:rnie.Ohitethoveke4:lllanferdnodinsatlic:lret.
dotal influences. His advice was to avoid registrationoon-
ONO altogether. (Hear, hear.)
After an observation from Mr. NZWDEGATI,
Col. THOMPSON did not see why England and Ireland
should not be put on the same footing as regarded the
franahits.
The committee divided, the numbers were—
For the words as in the clause 145
For the amendment
Mr. CLEMENTS proposed to insert words making the
clerk of the union alone responsible for the I reparation of
the lists, and the reeding them to the clerk of the peace,
owl that he should, after the first year, merely make out a
supplemental list of new voters, marking out the names of
persons dead or disspaglititd, instead of having a complete
list every year.