The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, 1850.

year followlag he would »due the smother to 90,000, whist'
should he regarded es • fair sad remittal Mambo. (Hear.)
Is esimmose to what had bees aid& by his right hon. friend
el the art= 1111PINOM1110 whist' prevailed amongst the oil.
ems, ho (11r. Hems) would wish to see that system done
away with altogether. Ile was in favour of the eystem
that promoted mss from the ranks instead of making
a meresatne principle. (Hear, hoer.) It
been mateaded that bonus Frame and Prusela
bept large armies, so also ought England. Os a
themes ocosaion the sem? &gramme was used to show that
1-,

SUPPLY.-THE ARMY ESTIMATES. kg NM littis antra Is farther build-
Ilia boom ekes weal tato conuaittege of supply is ells g ..tia „,...th..... ms."llllhr No vonnonni le the yElb.ndlainessula7,B°ll.4l
army Winteten Mr. DEMO. is the =kb
wbisk deem was on berm= of Mena a ana Corp,
Mr. F. MAULS add be bad to elk the commutes to agree lam yea= TM ',seen of Mk Imam min SW t was de-
" • °°°•"" That the "label li lad (Inset fr ,_ ofhe_r_at temained set to cell inet Me kW kg miemegilebt duty, sad
*WM, thee Illst of Mark. 1864 be 90.128 leeettnene•"g therefore daring the whelk of rat hisser lir& sea an
om sereenusiesteeed °Metes, and rack and nor, for Om n 0,00,010, a nonin,d,„. kr lbw aseesama easiak wee
seek' ef Groat Britain and tesd, bat mohnive of the :r.:,77.1raz-,1 ._ ~..._zut......,
toggle employed la ebe lest Jakob" as world now ri's =71;;, . 7,...- .... - -i-zd - _ ....._
Mom the ateestion Of the meassittes both to tfur *item _r,Orn az,_ o n'Or" ]resent ____ __, ~OMMT_
and sles aapeadienne of tim army. The amber of men to ra--eum"*" w ir was a '''_ aramm;y 7107"ariiirmi
..,.
be Weld eelle.o___
__WWII bOetelen,""°••_,, ___o_ll 71•1
___ll wree1,13.284'- duty was added to the estimates feat this year. be &boob decieledly protest, as It weSalm to show that they
ebetßini___ le eneesamoni="`" `" '''""'"7. '" "'"°•"' Tlits was due whole of what ,sue hated the offeetim service had little dependence in themselves. It would be all vary
towdbminannne
at els twansalltiaiat mem eunhollia" ilmalloi iseihroet of the army sad, as compared with the estimates of last well if his right hon. friend told them that they were again
no. year, there was a decrease, ,of 86,6701. by take the field, so at Waterloo, and fight the battle of
It. re, hams allikee at/ WA. a fa° ""'". year,
sow Mims to the lowermeetegliordoegee.thlke first vote European liberty. But ha was satisfied the lemon they
aint metrise. Dimness *see namiteek.seiff furiben under this head was for rewards far sallitary Berries. Lest had received, and the penalty they had incurred by the
ft ~____oefeddi be sees that tee teePe,eeeteeet only B'°". year this vote was 16,120 L This year there was a mull addition of 600 millions to their debt, would put it out of
.rasssofssa..... SS ,"•• maaaallrailaar these we: i7n'y sieved inners of The soot item wee for the pay of general the power of any minister or any Home of Commons to
.... iTedleisir of the' world. Ded " fOons ofkers. Lest year It amounted to 78,9081. - Tbis year ft adopt in future each. a policy. (Hear, hear.) Ho had been
au tar bias meta, um mazy, ow household was
1321,
OfbeinLa a
weedemessery of 20,000 L But anxious to ascertain In what respect tha Increase of
paelesil
duo to General men had taken place, and he found that in 1835 their
iiilblil• re ehfeldo__if ~__"1""i'___o_8111 9-1! :121:_%°°°*17,11`"Veeerie Monty, who bas sot drawn his allowance for =vary numbered over 10,000, whilst at present they
allentfellY_,„ a lama. "I eir,____• ""e".._ eolgo"nriy,_"'"o.`: several yeses the real decrease VMS about 7,000 L Daring were 12,366. In 1836 the Fait Clouds numbered 4,789
••••••• at •i'm's "' """' ''''' I.''''''" serves, "*" the year, 21 general officers were removed from the list, they were at present 5,260. The infantry were 79,722 in
abases le this Paled lbw the 11.11141". "Lit admit end 4 bad been added, making a difference of 17 persons. 1836' at present they numbered 102,322. The colonial corps
11111111" man° "II a° was MI 1.111111.1". Th. °thee This vote, as compared with 1836 showed a decreem of no numbered in 183,1, 5,690 ;at present they reached 9,988.
niglat the hem. member ter the WINS Lift d said that lees thin 56,0001. on eke .retiring fall pay them was a The total number of troop, at home in 1835 was 44,330, and
a" only the number. het die drneali sate than was decrees of 1,6001. this yes, sad as competed with 1836 at present 69,308. In India in 1836 the troop, numbered
required. and had proposed a red an kemtimates of there was a decrease of 23,6001. He now came to the half- 19,720, whilst at present they reached 30,487. (Hear, hear.)
6,b23 0001, Il• woe" Meltels a" a11°14111116°411111112 pay list, which was the moat formidable item at all times Now, what he had to do with these figure, was to show that
or 1,911,0001., was to be allesini an re, am It a- I ••• in eke noa-effestive eervice, but this yew it showed a the numbers, tensed of having increased, should have de-
ka presumed the
wareesto
Gramm midi net in-
. fair and proportionate decrease. In 1849.60, the half-pay tressed. They were now at peace, and as contented as in
titht°,_witit ~,„,.the , been ",____,,,oaah°ll.lll ofe___ll°., 1112n,°' list amounted to 400,0001.; this year It was 386,0001., show- 1835 and 1836, yet their numbers were greater. (Hear,
a °maw w...' ''. "'"" '''"'"ls'"''' '''' time ... tog a decrease ot 14,000, and, =me 1696, • decrees of hear.) Independent of them, they had 10,000 en-
ds*, sad whisk seats only be reduced tr
199,5001. There were 234 officers removed from the list rolled pensioners, 10,000 enrolled dockyard men, and
elefaim°2l 1111.1 MIMS' 12" "and" that °e'en • during the year, and 87 placed ea. Ho might observe hare some 10,000 polio" in Ireland, altogether a body
/leis/pun
tpropsoodee
tedwettetewas
proposed,
at •Litobtlasouge 0f.t3h,a91.36,w18021e1l
that the greatest vigilante was used la suing that no person of 30,000 men over and above the army ; and there-
remain only 1,995,5821. for the whole elective service. was placed upon the haltopey listwbo was not fully entitled fore he contended he had made out a case for retrogression,
to it eithweeeed ien Lis will,byefelengthof oeeelre, et from ill health, or from and that they should as soon as possible return to the former
alluded-the charge per mac was 421, and poste Minims. beie
In 1835-the year to which his hon. friend bad so pointedly (Hear.) The next vote was more economic system. In point of argument, he admitted
Taking the cost now at 403., and dividing 1,996.6821. by
for theeed foreign half-pay, and it was one upon which, loader be might be in error; bat he contended his figures were
this sum, it would not give more than • fore, of 60,000 for present circumstances, then must always be a decrease. The right and Indisputable. The hon. member concluded by 1
estimate for 1849.60 was 44,1561. ; this year It was 42,2001., moving as an amendment to substitute 89,000 for 99,000 as
service, to say nothing of the dignity and honour of the
the service and relief of the oolouies, and for the tome showing a dermas. of nearly 2,0001. and, se compared with the maximum number of men.
country. That was • number as far below the standard of
1835 a datums of 35,0001. On the estimate for widows' The question having been put,
t .
le. pensions thero was a decrees, of 2,2421. During the year 66 Mejor BLACKALL said he could enure the hon. gentle.
1836, when we bad 81,000 men, that some other calcu
don must be resorted to before making so large a deduction widows had been stuck off the list. The decrease tonthis man that it was not because of his having been connected
that, rife duos 1835 was 22,6931. The estimate for the comp's- with the service that lee should oppose the amenoment.
sincef"" 1836,the effective basshealloO.llltiLhe repeatedlle°ietlf w.ole,offro,,O =mate allowance last year was 96,6001 • this year it wee Having listened attentively to his address he was of
o, then ~."' . . ".......A...-.7.......7 91,0001., beino a dee:ease of 4,6001'. ; and, as cob opinion that he had not made out tie case. Was there any
the „LinOnfl" of ".• ,OTE 8,... "°"1...,. r"'' took''''''''..a.,.. pared with 1836, of 68,000. The ultimate for la-pensioners, one of the colonies in which the number of reliefs could be
In ""e• a "IT '"' "°"°°"" inn" including Chelsea and Hilmeinhase, showed a difference reduced ? He (Major Blacked!) had taken the trouble of
iu Cued*, and troops being required there, the army was
increased to 89,000 men. A further berme was made in of 2151. In favour of eke present year. The decrease was on ascertaining what number of troops was quartered in the
the cheep for hospital expenses ; but as ben was an andel- different colonies. He found that in the whole of the
1840 to 93,000. not only with the 'onetime of the house. wed dram for unclaimed prise money, a sum of 2,0001. ware American colonies there were but 11 regiments of the line
bat upon the urgent orpromatations =many members of the
'weeks in the celestes, as to the greater mororay which added to be estimate on that acomint. The estimate for the ate each regiment hada depot of about 200 men at home, the
out pensioners last year was 1,224,0521. • thh year it was effective force was only 6,500 men ; and, looking at the ex-
relieved. In 1842 troops were required for the service in would result from having the corm there more tequently 1,233,7111., being an increase of 9651. Till inmate did not tent of country to be garrisoned, he thought it child hardly
India and China In 1848 the government of the day arias from an increased number being borne on the list. be said that that force was too large. In the West Indies
.
thought it necessary to come down with a supplementary On the contrary, there was a decrease In that there were seven »pimento, or 2,600 men, mattered over
estimate, whir= was most cordially approved, and the force respect. But for several yam' past it had been the various islands. At the Ceps of Good Hope there were
the custom to calculate the diminution saved by casual- five regiments, or 2,500 men. Considering the nature and
Sher to 113,000., the higheet camber that was reached. At
was augmented to 108.000 men. In 14449.9 it rcse still fur-
the in the round sum of 29,0001. The consequence was that extent of the frontier to be guarded, and remembering
~,, for several years there was an excels of expenditure on this what had occurred within the last few yeah, he shouts
that time avers! regimen" "tan" from I°44' afar, *"-
war. and it was
gallant actions in Atighen, under the supposition that India
there five regiments vote owing to this calculation having exceeded the real like to know whether any member would propose to make a
was to wno morto have been reduced. Bet they were
amount. They had this year diminished that calculation, reduction.
ought immediate, sod
and had taken credit for only 20,0001., instead of 29,0001 Sir W. MOLES WORTH said-The hon. gentleman has
y
required again the very next year; and, had the sedate It was true that this caused an increase this year, declared that my hon. friend (Me. Hume) has not made our
tion taken place it would have cost nearly double instead of a decree's in the estimate, but it was a CAM for the reduction which he proposes ; and the right
the
better that this should he the case then to show hon. gentleman, the Secretary of War, stated that the
wisest to. set them on
or moot economical foot again. It was notcal course, the moment 1,000 or 2,0 ;0
in the balance sheet hereafter en over expenditure. The expense of the army and the militia at the present moment
men returned from abroad, to rush into reductions without last vote wee for the superannuation list. The estimate of is very nearly the same as it was in 1835. ,Now there
looking forward a year or two. But in 1848 the strength lest /year was 38,000 L, this year it was 40.0001. This were two kinds of military] expenditure-namely, effective
of tho army came to a turning pint: in 1849 60 it was constituted the whole of the army estimates. Under and floc-cif/vivo. The effective military expenditure is for
redacted to 103,000; and, still retracing their steps they the head of the non-effective service there was a services ectually performing; the noneffective for services
,
now proposed • redaction to 99,128. Though this was an se ' of 33,2411., end upon the whole estimates performed. The former Is under the immediate and direst
as compared with 1849 50 there was a diminution in control of parliament, and is in proportion to the force main-1
intneete of 17,857 on the force of 1835' Jet there w''n'''o
increased demands for it; the increase in our colonies and in favour of the moment year of 122,8141. (Hear.) But before seined, and increases or decreases with the number of men
localities requiring protection since 1835 fully justified the
he left this subject, tear
shoal like to show the difference voted. The non-effective expenditure depends upon the
I
vote now prop sed The hon. member for the Weet Riding which existed in the moblishmenta for the effective service number of men which bus been employed in previous
o.
said that as the colonies were now to have self- govenment, as compared with 181849, in mower to the charge which had years, and therefore is removed from the direct and imme- ,
it was but fair they should maintain the forces sent them as been preferred against them, that, having ones arrived at diets contr:l of parliament. To judge, therefore, of the
• military police, or rather as • military protection. That
large armaments, they were not dimmed to go back. The human or retrenchment which has been made in the army
was not a whey entirely unknown to the present govern
effective service for the year 1848.49 consisted of 113,847 expenditure, the effective expenditure should be alone
meet. Lord Grey had already called on the lac. .
men, at a cost of 4,3.56 7601 ; that for 1860 61 consisted of considered, (Hear, hear.) In IS3-5 the number of meal
1
--• governments of C
n - 69,126 men, at a charge of 3,936,9821, being a de- voted was 81,000, and the estimate for effective see-
ad
selves the charge of the barrack establishments, and to -" and Australia fee take ein the" cream in the number of men of 14,719, and vices was 3,334,0001. ;in 1848 the number of men
nude tab and find lidgings for the troop sent these. in the cost of 420,1681.-.(bear, bear)-but, if he included the was 114,000, and the estimate 4,356.0001. This
That was one step in the direction his hon. triend proposed, noneffective service the decrease was 601,4381. But he year the number of men is propose d to be
would compare the army estimates for the present year 89,000, and the estimate for them 3,936,00010.- a
And as the colonies increased la wealth and importance, it
with those of 183.5, and he would show his bon. friend (hb. &stream therefore at compared to 1848, of 15,000 men and
they still required es of troops from this country to pro-
Cobden) that they were much near, r the level of 1835 than 420,000 L-an increase as compared to 1835 of 18,000 men
reef their interests, they might act contribute something, as .
ne had any idea of. 'lb. srmy and militia charges for 1835 and 592,0001. Now, ought the force of the army to be re-
protectie.nCeylon and the lonian Islands did at prevent, towards Vie
were 6,126.643/. ; for 18501 they were 6,123,2471. due id to the standard of 1..35 ? That force should be
afforded by the mother country. At present
making a diff enact, of only 2,6041. (Hear, hear.) divined into two parts, each requiring separate considers-
scarcely any of our colonies were in • pi:piny° to be fairly
But though they had so nearly approached the lion. One part is employed in the foreign pooe.sions of
thrown on their own rowans for the maintenance of •
military force. The hon. member had said the organisation estimates for 183.5 he did not mean to say that they were to the crown, the other part at home. With regard to the force
atop there, if, consistently with the duties they owed to the at home, I shall my !ethic, at present. lam not, for many
el the British my
was the most extravagant of an army
crown, the army, and the country. they could bring the testi- reasons, inclinoi to strip the centre of the empire of mili-
in Europe, end that it was kept up especially for the are-
mates below those of that year. (Hear, hear ) Having now tary force; and if we maintain a considerable force in the
toeracy. His (Mr. Mauls's) experience led him to a very
oifferent conclusion-that the officers of the British army stated the case with repard to the number of the army, and colonies, we ought to have a considerable force at home
one the worst
the estimates for its maintenance, he wished to make a to relieve the troops in the colonies. (Hear, hear.) The
servants that id, and the hardest working class of p übl
He ic few remarks with regard to the steps which had question theref.ra to which I shall confine myself is,
he knew anywhere. (Hear, hear.) been taken of late s ears to promote the discipline, the whether there can and ought to be made a considerable re-
to brieg it to the understanding of mercantile men.
would treat the matter in a mereeuttle point of view, so as comforts, and the good character of the army. And duction in our military force in the colonies. I would call
(Hun hear.) A lieutenarencolonel, to arrive at that rank „
nest with regard to the military prisons, which added con- the attention of the committee to a return printed lest year
b urchase, paid 4.5404 for his commission his pay, siderably to the army Intimates line! 1835, he was happy to of the expenditure of Great Britain, on account of the coke
be able to inform the house that the expenses of those corn- vies, for the year 1846-7. This return gives the expenditure
including the pay for conamandiroe hie regiment, to draw
which he must be with the regiment every day in the
mated to prison had been more than covered by the sums for that year at 3,500,0001. But that sum did no; include
was 3651. Deducting from this five per cent on the prie year, s
of
deducted from their pay. But that was a matter of minor any indirect expenditure, nor the expenditure on
.
° his commission, 2271. ; 201. for those regimental subscriptions consideration c metered with the improvement which had account of the fleets maintained on the colonial
e taken place in the conduct and character of the army as evinced etstions, which last expenditure, I reckon, at not
which be had no alternative but to pay, and 111. for boom by a comparison of the number of persons committed te prison. less than 1,000,0001. a year. Therefore, in my opinion,
tax-there remained 1071. to the lieutenant-colonel of a
regiment for the ditties he performed. (Hear, hear.) Taking The number of young men commi•ted to military prisons the direct military, naval, and civil expenditure of Great
a major, and making similar deductions, his pay was
bad been gradually decreasing during the last three years. Britain. on account of the colonies, did not amount, in the
In 1847, the number of persons on ler twenty years of age years 1846-7, to much lees than 4 500,0001. I wilt confine
cant, 851. ; and an cosign 731. per annum. These were the
931. 1,,. • • captain received 'ether more, 1031. ; a lieutio
who were consmi ted amounted to 1,126 ; in 1848, to 981 ; my observations to the military expenditure. According to
men whose organisation was stated to be moat extravagant, in 1849, to 589. (Hear.) The number of men of two year.' this return the direct military expenditure of Great Britain
service committed in 1847 was 1,656 : in 1848, 1,590 ; in on account of the colonies (including ordnance and commis-
the army must be kept up for men of some description eand for whom the army was said to be kept up. No doubtt
1849, 1,000. He felt quite SUN that under the present system unit expenditure) amounted to 3,000,0001. in 18467: all
,till ducation in the army the number of committals would this expenditure was on account of the effective military
other who had other means of support beyond what they
further de creme. With regard to the health of the army. force; and as in 1846.7 the whole expenditure of the empire
received from the AMT. (Hear.) Any one casting his eye
slightly over the army list would arrive at the impressionimpression• great deal bad been done of late year. to promote it. He had on account of effective military force ameunted to 6,600,0001.,
the return" of mortality with respect to the army serving it follows that s.llths of our effective military expenditure
that, so far from the army being kept up for the aristocracy,
abroad. With regard to the mortality of the army at home is on account of the colonies ; and as in the long run the
they held a very "melt proportion of the commission.. (Hear.)
But the bon. gentleman complained that when reductions
he had not any returns, but he was happy to say that with expenditure on account of non effective must be it propor-
respect to the late visitation of the cholera, it had not fallen tion to, the effective force which had been previously em-
=Seers as well as the men. In all the increases under MO. "
Inn made, sufficient attention was not paid to reduce the _
severely
on the army as it had on civilians. ploysd, I am entitled to assert that 5 llths of our who!'
Bat the returns of 1849 with respect to the army abroad military expenditure is on account of the colonies. Now, in
esesive governme rats since 1835 particular care had been
'hewed a
~seas improvement, (Hear, hear.) Now, with the years 184 G-7 the whole military expenditure, including
Oaken to increase the, officers, in a very small proportion in- 'n°
system of um ion
regard to are
dosed as compared with the men ; the increase since 1835 had
bees only as 1 officer to 152 men. The reduction of officers been his lot to carry out the plan which had been previously which 4,000,000/. was required in consequence of
was quite another thing. Men might generally be reduced laid down with great care and skill by hie predecessor in the force we were maintaining, or bad maintained,
ithout any great burden being thrown on the country ; office. The last quarterly returns showed three in 18 out of in the colonies. Therefore the question of the
but by reducing officers they were made permanent annui-
-21 schools that smarm was flourishing, and that amongst amount of military force to be kept in the colonies
teats on the public, and the efficiency of the service was
those who attended them there were 2,289 non-commissioned le a question with regard to 4,000,0001. of annual expendi-
greatly imp Med, because in en army like once, where eea-
officers. (Hear, hear.) When that system was properly tare, consisting directly of 3,000,0001. expenditure for effec-
may was studied, and where the number fluctuated from matured, he believed that • better educated body of men five service, and indirectly of 1,000,0001. expenditure for
could not be found anywhere than those who compete:id her non-effective services. It is evident, however, that it is only
year to year, r sing and falling according to the necessities
of the service, the object always was to keep up • regiment Majesty's army. (Hear, hem.e .
He was happy to be able in the effective expenditure that any immediate reduction
with such an eetabishmeat of officers as should enable them to say that the Commander-in-Cbief was determined in aP- can be made. The question therefore is, do we want
on the shortest possible notice to add a large number of plying the same system to the higher class of the army, 41,000 troops in the colonies ? If we do, we must pay for
men, aid thus make the regiments more efficienO To meet If for not could more strongly tend to diminish that re- them, and we ought to keep an ample force at home to
emergencies it was nee/seamy that officers should be well .
n.es as .
meet wi it w become, that the soldier should entertain relieve them. We may make some economies here and
trained and well disciplined ; it was on this principle alone t
owards his superior officer than the circumstance that the there, save a few thousands ; but I am inclined to thick
that the system of our cavalry regiments could be main-
moldier should know himself to be ruperior in point of that the army has been well managed, economically speak-
loosed; and ha though; the, principle fairly justified the knowledge to his officer. (Hear, hear.) The sum-m- ing ; and I feel persuaded that we cannot reduce the cost of
course pursued. With regard to the distribution of the force,
mander-in-chief therefore, would insist that every officer these troops under 4,000,0001. a year for effective and non-
there we re but 35,000 at home, to relieve 30,000 should
in the colonies, and 30,000 in India. The right the army, and in due and not very distant time he force in the colonies can be reduced it is necessary to con-
hon. ..
member for Manct ester had remarked that nape" toot regulation would be more widely applied, eider how it is distributed I have only its distribution in
the expense of the Indian service was grater a and that no person would be promoted to the rank 1848 9. which I will take in connexion with the expenditure
than appeared on the estimates, for though the East India of • captainexamination,
the,(Her,
Thel vote
in India, it threw back a considerable burden on the pension Mr. HUME said he was happy to find that so much Our troops are distributed through the different classes of
lists. It was quite Mu these burdens were had been done to and half- promote the discipline, the health, colonies, namely military stations, plantations or subjugated
pay
augmented from the number of men serving in India ; but and eduction
of the army. (Hear, hear.) It was • territories, and colonies, properly so-called. With regard to
him, who had so long contended for the military stations if the people of England pride themselves
what was the per contra? That the East India Company great satisfaction to
iem,
that a different system had on such fortresses as Malta and Gibraltar, if they thous to
pail to the Treasury 60,0001. a year, over and above the sum abolition of flogging the y
well, and, to be attended with such have the lonian Islands, and will dhplay their wisdom by
paid for the treops, expronly to meet that emergency. been found to work so
had heard from the present distinguished laying claim to Sapient:!; if they have a mind for St.
(Hear, hem.) As to the proportion of officers to men, he good multi.. He
that
number of lashes given at one Helena, Hong Hong, Labuan, end the Falkland blends-
Amoebae in 1836.36 it was Itol7 ; in the present year it commander-unchief the
limited to 50, and it was a great (hoer, hear)-if they will dot the world over with their
wee Ito 20. That was said to be more than was requisite : but time should now
haveh heard him sty that even that troops, why they must pay for so doing ; they must not
turning to the army of a country which seemed to be in high satisfaction . toreduced.
favour with the hon. member for the West Riding-that of number might in time be (Hem, hese.) grudge half a million a year for effective military ex pendi-
lways
also glad that better barrack accommodation had lure in these places; for the follies of mankind are •
the United States-and where he would not say the army
He
emu
'ded-for their soldiers. He neve r mid that the pay the most expensive of their amusements. But Ido grudge
was kept up for the aristocracy-In an army of 17,0e0 men been prove
&seri was too high. The only difference the expense of 2,500 troop in the lonian Islands. Our
there were no lees than 775 o cers, being aproportion of Ito of the men or o
between him and his right hon. friend was as military expenditure on account of these islands has
21. (Hear.) He had now shown that, in poise
of
numb*"
at
that
existed
that arm in 1828 the actual amount amounted on an ge to about 130,0001. a year, or about
home to relieve thou abroad, there were strong grounds for to the numbers of
as _
_, _
55 50y0,0001. But in consequence of • 4,500,000/, since the peace. Of that sum we have expended
maintaining the force at what he had propoesd. The right of revenue raised w
hon. baronet the me tabu tot Tamworth had, in 1848, shown great outcry being raised against the taxation at that time, 456,0001. on military works. We commenced fortifications
pointed, and reductions to the extent of at Corfu, which were estimated to cost 152,0001. ; they have
the absolute necessity of so arranging the force at home as • committee was ap
not to allow Ouse &Orme* to sufftr for want of relief. A 6,000,0001, were effected before 1835. In that year the cost already 356,0001. ; they cannot be completed at less than
50,000,0001. ; but he was sorry to say that 90,0001. more ; and when completed at a coat of 450,000/.,
routine of ten years was now fixed for the colonial service ; revenue was
and if the house wished to maintain that term,that time they had increased the expenditure, except they will be se extensive that, in the event of a war, it
they
met
eteee
g the, lastw to y be . Ho maintained, however, that would not expedient to keep a sufficient garrison to man
force they now thought necutuy to ask. In addition to Were was n
Siva the government the means of doing so, by voting the during
onecessity for the increase during the inter. them; therefore, in sub an event, the wisest plan would be
They had not yet heard the financial state- to withdraw out troops, and blow up the fortifications, and
that, some consideration should be given to the times in vening years
ofthe. • ht- hen, gentleman the Chancellor of the we could always reconquer them if there were no fortifica-
which we lived, to the position which this country held merit
but he thought he might take the doss for less than the interest of the capital we have ex-
amidst the nations of the world, and to the necessity of our Exchequer,
(Hear, hear, and
for the present year, allowing for ended upon them since the peace.
military resource not being crippled, that we might not be ezpenditure
at between 60,000,0001. and 51,000,0001. laughter.) As military stations they are useless, and their
f
subject to wanton insult from other countries taking advan- reduction',
h ula decide that the number of men a pre- government has not added to our fame in Europe. N. xt,
use of that position. The army of Franc,, at this momentsexpenditure in our plantations
If
the
house's ° the arm should be continued, then they with regard to our military
cowisted of about 430,000 men, besides gendarmerie, and an sent composingmilitary
d and refuse to pus the estimates. He sod subjugated territories. In the West Indies the
almost innumerable host of national guards. In PIUMBiII could not turnairgunt
grudge the stint of pay awarded the forme amounts to about 6,500 men, with an effective exp mien-
then was an army of 325,000 men, besides 460,000 (
Kr.
Home))
obemeted to war the number of men. (Hear.) tuna of 500,0001. a year. Is this expenditure
et Ito:OPy
of the second class, or landwehr. The army of men,
whata hies hand the report of h ittofwhich (Hear, hear.) In the Mauritius we keep also 2,000 men,
t • commi ea
Austrit, at this moment, consisted of ao leu than He held ilB2B we have ex-
Parnell was chairman, in reference to the army at a cost of about 90,0001. a yes:.
Since
he Meuritius and
352 genera', 2,084 staff e Son 16,545 officers, 49 non- Sir Henry ~
n.
which
report stated that "the army roded 200,0001. on military works at t
commisaioned officers, and 539,000 troop.. Ho paid not bet and navy question, adeeeteee
anditwas f which'is to
ately we have commenced new works, part o
sadt
ee
this country was to run a race in military establOhments and navy were a great
t.et
expenditure,
limitthat saving cost another 200,0001. Them works
e
with foreign countries ; but that, in the position which this only by keeping leewithin a proper a Mauritiuse Pies
Ito be required, because fh inhabitants
country held, end seeing around us all the nations of Europe
could be established. No man would say that at present are lei,l. and the
armed almost to the teeth, It would ill befit this country Canada, with itriend ' important mi oar)
its state of government required an increase an station,
from their French
merely to maintain itself in a position to relieve its troops of soldiery. hostile to our dominion, pansy
r His ditto boo. (Mr. F. Marie)
(Her.)
1840 is lo i Itlx from Colonial-office misgovernment,
a corps were raised, an origin, Pee domestic foes from on colonial aerobe, without retaining some margin at least had stated that n
who
ofsuch Then to defen us from foreign and from
for the protection of its interests at home, and the amble- he (K . r Hume) was one of those approved
u he maw in them thesaving of Orange of without and from within, sea .
nano of in digniey ante mg the nations of Europe. The charge corps,
A ninon. are required. Next, with regar
for the land forms dieting the present year was 3,562,4311. ; troops backwards"
and
'' tl • ehof the of Great in 1646 7, the military expenditure, after
d.
in the last rstimate it was 3,885,5881. : showing • decrease of before a committee bet two- in
ontriOutions, amounted to 83,0001. ; in 1848 that expen '-
93,1581. The a( xt vote was for the staff; in 1849.50,1 c was Britain were retained for the purpose of relieving those eontri'tuttone,
and the military force was
tore was, I believe, greater,
173,27GL ; this year, 164,9161., showing • redaction of abroad ;".and the f it oral, re nabl TO ors
theye to approve
mu
d Medi decreased the increased to 3,700 men and .
more That wag the year of t►e
8,4601. Rh hon. friend complained that officers were not of colonial corps, as en ou ythe bthe showing of riots. Ceylon affords a capital instance of.i
reduced in the same proportion as men; he would 'De by public expendeture. Now, he thought, y a mint, ignorance, and bigotry of the Celonia office.
mismanage-
this vote that there had been reduced two general officers, his right hon• friend, that they were entitled to reduction_ (Hear, hese., Ludy,
) with regard to our military
two aides de-camp, five assistant adjutant-generals, one of the troops at home by reason of the colonial corps. (Hear, tu° of our colonies, properly so
assistanoquartermaseer general, and two =Gioia of brigade- been) But the cue was for different,for in ,
• 1848 Instead of expenditure on account
instead culled. This is a question of principle. That with regard to
108 000
all "toff officers, either at home or abroad, whom the go- • reduction, We had the troops increated to
adduced .
? Why, our military stations and plantations was • question of et-
a foment thought umecessery during the ensuing year. of 80,000 in I'3* ; and what reason was
In the following pediency. I maintain on principle that our colonies, pro
• country. (Hear, hear.)
The next vote was kr the, public, department', which was the state of th . inthat year perlo so called, in so far es they are integral portions of t
94,1991. last year, and 92,68 a. this year; showing •• decrees yesr, 1847 the troops numbered 113,000 ; a
empire, but do not contribute tower de the general revenue
for he (Mr. Hume) took the ranee of the house
" as to when-
of 1,5151. ; and the decrease would have been larger, but defray all their
of the empire, ought In ordinary times to
policy ; but the go-
some additional charges that had been brought Into that thee reerogruaion would not be the, better pot .
t_ e
wanted
own ezpenses-(hear, hear)-and if they want troops for
estimate. The Royal Military College formed the next vote, Tenement met him with the statement that
believed
1 erewas
loos' purposes, they ought to pay for them. At the same
on which there was a smell ileums of 6131-from 17,4081. troops for India," where at the time he I
ando
why .
time they are entitled to claim the complete management ,f
to 16,8911. The next vote was the Royal Military war. Well, at present there was pease n India,
II wished their local affairs. (Hear.) I therefore maintain we ought
reduced? (Her, hear.) •
Asylum, comprehending the educational institutions were not these men._ .
no _
for
twelve
__,_ to keep troops
,in our real colonies
for imperial pur.
both here and in Ireland. Upon that vote there to know why remain should noetf bee,
etpiittetilon '"'Y
d pose'. Omitting the' question of the amount of tom to be
was • decrease of 6411.-the difference between 19,2971. months ? (Dear, hear. butted lea y__
/
k• 449 000 and the kept at home or in our plantations, I contend that lam
and 18,6671.; the saving would hays been greater, but now sought to be vote ,he would ta e , i

n the vote
ade
eientitledonortooo:l4:7o6 fora
lisrledanduetWa
gruitunin:oefoo,urtibe:aoeioni.
thamthisecle°m:pihtlavie4ilnadeyee:Bthfooetteiltißilleuoogi:ieena:li theonidredththeseu:caprt
oohupeeghroluutyngsoketetntwestollebdcei,
such • reduction wouM be in aneordanee with the thatindoeie
empire. (Hear.
member for Montrose tar • reduction of e
000
tome of
itotiaybsilal
advantage
n:
o met,,
o thatll whisk
l
baronet who had just sat down to have said that
o meb,tein the
(rem Sir W. Mokswonh) Ile
p
=erg" tthooderetite(b.ONn.ob'anroonc.
to have acid so. At aid
"n
WhliCsi"owt"n dophionwrionh.weca:lthal vote
thewyithceo7F4,l4
bore.han
eiKto
presume
ash of:enyto:
iwmuao
utcenktat
oduylkbo:r
seyildao,soraotfe.o.iobona
Irgttutrzriietuttretni,:ddinreductionoerrspbe•n
,:v,eexcept
swhichrstpseiibot huhreermblyionndrht
botbe,7al ,dtoo:bleyym.toi rnoe.
:et;
thewe dltohnreei colonies
use
recollect
fotrtbe that
oit
ot eh::: Isho:n 1
f
4::
5, 0 00ear.
(Hear.)
men oeh
aot
e
could not ON of what use they were except
to the mercantile interests of this country. No 'one could
way. As for New Zealand. in that colony there could be no
should not now come forward to ask for a reduenun in the
amount of troops necessary to protect those colonic.* wh e
formed the chief market for their manufactures. He 'Null
ask the house were they is suck a safe positionm-
ot admit of their withUrawing any of the troopo—
Would the house eon/tent to withdraw any of the troo s
Ireland ? If the government felt that they could 'Oh c"1
(ideate withdraw 9,000 or 10,000 of the troops from IrelMerai
they would gladly do so, but such coefidence should too be
placed in the peace and tranquillity of that country u
se
some honourable gentlemen would appear to soeee-
The honourable gentleman the member for the Weei
Riding of Yorkshire said that he had consulted a min.
tasy man, either a Hanoverian or an Au•tralisa.
(Laughter.) He thought that when advice was ask.o on trews
matters, it should not besought from a foreigner. Tiny were
proved to be an overmatch far the foreigners as far as mill.
tarn matters went, and if hon. gentlemen preOr•• d
the
p_osttion of the foreigners he wished them but the
English were as far superior to them as one thing ceoa be
to another. Hon. gentlemen said that they were aesous
keep faith with their creditor. but they should else keep
faith with their soldiers, and all he could ray was, the if the
motion of the hon. member for Montrose was moue they
would give strength to the disiffected and dienattettd ia
L every part of her Meknes 'a dominions.
Mr. MACGREGOR gave the government credit t r the
reductions they had already accomplished, and relied upon
sincerity in prosecuting the work or economy. Friel :us', to
the last session, he had calculated that about four u...lious
meld be saved out of the eight millions 'pen, on the *nay,
navy, cad cir :mince. He now found that 2.600,0001, had
been actually reduced, and more was promised. lie was
convinced that further retrenchments were possible, wipe-
dally in the colonies, but he objected to pus a sweepioe vow
which might prove emberrassing to the public service and
unjust to the gallant men compering our armies.
Sir B. HALL said that, whenever the army es inane
were brought forward, hon. gentlemen conneetel with the
army, when they joined in the uissussion which anoe there-
upon, behaved with extraordinary forbearance. Th• gun-
lint now was, whether it was now judicious to make any
reduction in the expenditure of the army and
navy ; hon. gentlemen voted for the expo editure,
while they spoke against taxeion, and the hon.
gentleman who had just sat down was willing to see tea scion
reduced, and the window tax abolished in panicuiar. They
knew that the window tax amounted to too mu ..as of
money, and he would ask him how it was p-uitle for but
to take any one way of reduci-g taxation, at the tam- taas
that he voted for the full expenditure of the c. ,retry?
(Hear, beer.) After the discussion which took ps-e, Its
was sure th.t his noble friend at the head of the d vein•
ment would be able to sty that gentlem•u on
his side, and many on the other side t I the
house, bad no right to vote for a re
of the taxation because they voted for the full ex,
They could not coneeientiously adopt such a coarse. re&
they voted for the full expenditure. He would with much
pleasure vote in favour of the motion of the eon. mt Leber
for Montrose.
Mr. STANFORD expressed his approval of the meoner
I which the estimates had been laid upon the table. Ile re-
gretted that ar y discredit lied beeo attempted to he ea.* on
that noble service—the army. Any man could take up thme
estimates and me how every stiffing of the public meney ass
s; cot, and he said it was highly ert ditsble to any g .veree
ment that estimates should be placed before the marl
in that manner. Srfar from there bars to
large a force, the opinions of eminent men s re the
other way. He deprecated the imputation which h. been
east upon the transeendaut genius of this age (the D .ite of
Wellington). The hon. member for the West Rid: g had
also spoken slightenly of the naval forest. It was his acre
to see the army and navy as glorious as they had ever been.
He was glad to hear that it was elm determination of e
ment net to suffer any one of our colonies to be tn. u from
us. He was not a supporter of the government co other
*awl ins, but on this occasion they should have his supper;
and he weuld not pander to popularity by asking for a re.
deletion in 'that force which was necessary to maintein the
glory of the con' try.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE believed it was p.rfecy
possible to have an iner-aced s ill iency with a elm. oahed
expenditure. He called the attention of hon. pre..-.emett
to the committee which eat on this subject in N 7 lie
wanted to know why the report of the commission en cat
carried out. Unless they began at the bead the' .eo;i:d
have no reform. There was the Hone Guards managing the
infantry aid casalry, the ordnance in one de?ar•ment
and the commissariat put under the treasury. Ile wetted
to know why every one of these were not under case .ead ;
this system having been directed by the commission. It
was evident that if you had one head able to ace Ault for
everything, you would introduce greater economy and
vigour ii. to the system. The St cretary at War W 4. Cot to
be blamed, for there he was a financial secretary ; be •ad no
power in carrying out anything The boa. member for
It sading had spoken of the creditable way in which the
estimates were given, but they were in the pre-
cise form in which they bad been for the
last thirty or forty years. Great fault had been
found with the bon. member for the West Riding
for one assertion which be had ,rade, which was not founded
on fact, and which he was sure the bon. memb r Aid
tend, because his motives were not from that base p ‘polar-
ity which was sometimes sought in boroughs. He (Hr.
Cobden) had made an amnion that the army was kept up
for the benefit of the scions of aristocracy. He
(Mr. Osborne) took leave to differ from him
altogether. The Liverpool Financial Reformation So-
ciety bad published a.veral ignorant pamphlet,. He
could assure the house he had taken p.rticular
pains urn tl:is subject ; he bad gone into the pa.cte.s of
the officers of regiments, and had found that a great pre-
portion were junior sons of capitslists—men who had made
money in fair and honest ways. He found that in a neat
proportion of the infantry, the efficen were the sons cat very
poor men, and the working branches of the army were co
kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy. The boa. member
f Glasgow had announced, in his new chive. T. :f
Charecllor of the Exchequer, that the French army CA
double what the English army did, but the hon. gentle tuna
forgot to state that the French arms- quadrupled ail
in the estimate he had furnished to the haus :, the e; hole of
the ordnance anti every ebr.rge of every dernipti. it ass
included. As to the clothing of the army, he thou: hr. it a
moat unfortunate thing that they should pay the irenerrl
officers in the way they did, and before hon. gent eraen
were satisfied with the able drawing up of the estimates,
they should inquire whether they could not te.,ke
saving by putting the clothing on a different system.
There were 147 colonels of regiments; 90,0001. per acnum
was allowed the colonels tor clothing ; 1,8401. to each eolearl
'or cl
per anuum might be eared by taking the clothing 1,.t.) :bar
own hands. The clothing of • private is the hee cot
othoinf
seclo in in? far:
wryo, sumotthiento
the spentooloo being ng lt.
became pocket. be
21. 6s. ; of a private in the Foot Guards, 31. 15s tte
of the line, 41.; the Blues, 31. 45.; but the Lite
.Guar
81.135. 3d. The cost in 1847 of clothing 3;0,12s Fieo el:
troops in Algiers was 461,000 e, ineiudic¢r
.f,s:c.
equioage. The average cost of clothing r..
in France was 11. 13s. 2,1.; in Prussia, 11. las Ite
If he could only get a vote of the house he was certain
would put this system of clothing on a totelly eitf.
entre
system. What was the system as to our cavalry I, .1
were 28 reeiments, exclusive of the howehold brigs .e. !.t..
commissioned and 31 non.commi
afoot ennsolidation of '23 mimes!' to 12, a
ooletodoraiorogn2e2uarboods
211;e1d 3b6oloolotoorstoost ani3odr 4ed3,ll6,omtliiien,v,:i.enie.;hvh7',4gt;
the ordnance, by. throwing every thing under a reep.r.l7:
minister, you might save half • million. He belie, ?„,
the committee sitting up stain would only make a m:
• mune why
00, oint,hoienobdad,
boo system
by
mot!,
....pzu,rder:
I'a6
the should There
bew
"retanionedre.
RTON said that if he differed from his 'l•o.
to: ets •
friends, ie would only be to say that they had paid
bwe
ooatroaromepoborto,
faonotimbiengtwooave.
Col. CHATTE.his support to the motion of tea

a regard to economy.
Mr. MIJNTZ felt himself in the same difficulty as
Friday, when the hon. member for the West Riding hroueht
forward hi. motion. The prat at motion, like it, was ,t .11
abstract character, requiring explanation not yet if."
before he could support it.
Col. SltiTllolils would support the proposition of dr
government, b cause he was desirous that they should 4
' prepared to meet any revolutionary outbreak from •he rsfis
cats ot the cauntry—(a laugh)—as agaiost whom he 1.
full force of the old saying, that a bird in the hand as. 'Noll
two is the bush.
Colorel REID objected altogether to the proposed c'm'
pulaory examination of officers, and said he would throw q
his commission rather than submit to it. Ile redivit,..
however, that these was no sort of incentive to pr
study, and that the veriest idlers had the same (+Awe
promotion as the studious and scientific officer. Ile w.dld
suggest a voluntary examination.
?str. COBDEN showed that the reduction lately made''
the army had not e xtended to the officer.' list in its duo
proportion, and included none but subalterns. !duels et
itr
apparent dirninuivn had, moreover, resulted from the en'.
ployment of several regiments in India, wh. nee they wet,
apt to turn up 'gain. Aa we had entrust, d several e•lolas
with tha free administration of their own affairs. wr 6101
now withdraw our soldiers; or if the military Mee e
not be spared, we should be justified in asking the co: di .3
to pay tor them.
Lord J. MANNERS said that all that had feel,
stated that evening amounted to this, that. riTi*ltf
all the reductions together, by the withdrisra
troops from our eoloniesAthey only amounted to 7..'d or?.
whereas the hon. member for Montrose demanded a re,ho•
Lion of 10,000 L

Sit W. MOLES WORTH explained that what he said woe
the.; we could not reduce the force at home without Ant Ml-
doting it in the colonise ; aad when ha spoke of a rednecks
f
shoot SOO, he eluded °sly to our oolosks properly so
Piled. But be believed that in the other colonies a err-
UOll (42,000 mere could be safely made, thus raking up
the gum rr demanded by the bon. member for Mastro...
C;Ionel DUNNE declared himself oppred to any Mr-
Con in the officer of snaky regiments. He did sot think
that any reinter or laving would arise trot it, es there
to,f b! One nucleus 0 which to have are
repasts.
alr. VERNON SMITH, agreeing as he did with the hon. ,I
seciter fur Mantra,' On to the Manly of ecormay, wished
to icy why he could not. ea the permit omens, are ter
his 13ti, it It was because voting rums; 15,000 alts would
not be untletatood In the country. He thought also some
credit sus due to the Statelnent of the Secretrycat-War,
that he' wets prepared to reduce the fare in the
ecaoaice. dl4 the stersmont of the nettle Secretary fee
the tolonio, before the ()reissue- committee of the
Hour of Commons. in which he told theme that the colonies
must henceforth depend more on themselves. He did not
with to eater into the question of Ire trade ; by,
widoibtedly, free trade had altered our relations with oar
cower, sad these relaticas being so altered, this was the
best possible time for us to enter into • new relation with
erred to them, that they might know what they were to
tepee trees se, and we might know what we were to upset
fe is them.
Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret that though be
was &voluble to everything that tended to eroonoise
ea-
peaditan he eould not vote for this motion.
(Her, her) The hon. and gallant member for Cbip•
peers had stated that the maintenance of the army
In Irel tad did good to the people then, and his hon. friend
en hi. left bed said it was s Colonist question. But in Ire-
land this question appeared to him to Le a church question,
and it wow quite natural that the church militant &odd be
pappoyed by the establishment that it took its sere from.
As a }Nowt catholic he had sworn not to make use of any
(egg power to injure that churn, and therefore he could
sot vote, or the motion.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY thought it right, as other hos.
membu had done, to give a reason for his vote on this era-
sion. Ile was a decided friend to retrenchment and eco-
nomy, and he did not know how it wee possible lee the
ircetenrsent to retrench, unless the house wee prepared to
surpOrt retrenchment. He had heard no rower given to
that pert of the spier of the has. stemb.r for Marrow,
wherein he stated that in the yr. 1833, 1834, 1835, and
1830, we bad only 80,000 troops for England and Ireland ;
and hews at a loos to know why it was considered arerary
that Mere should be 20,000 more now. He wished to
b.: moistener that here. It was his intention to vote to-
morrow eight for the motion of the hen. member for West
Surrey ; Red be did a., berme be believed that the rune of
ircislation for nerd yens bad been to diminish the cost of
oriole' of consumption, and that the power if paying taxes
h ! been arterially dieniniebed by free rude.
Lo-d JOHN RUSSELL said he did got wish to enter
into the general question whether there should be a reduc-
tion of ten throned era beyond the reduction of four rou-
t]: I whin had bees stated ; but there was a statement, or
r • question, rut by the hos. member ter Northomptea
that Nam dto require sere not ee. II he understood his,
hb. umber wee &posed to ley down the principle
Rio a. the niceties were to have self-goverment, and me
▪ were to have fee trade, they ought to be told they
nun rely entirely on themselves. Now he rust say_that
he null not give his avert to any each rrisyiplc. (Hear.
acayt He was @stately against nay error. or usnecearry
tow is the arr.., se he should be against any wry
or ...refocus force in the United Rippler ; but be would
sot as; web neer to the colones that die ought to be
this prisciic laid down that they were entisely to rely on
M. ir ens resources. It appeared to his the principle
wt•ii be rather this, that we should resiste
am free seerline to what err arsolary for
each evinty, sad the circumstances in which it
was ..teed. With regard to ear military colonies, it bed
nee yeed to right that the forms at Gcbraltsz sad Malta
were knit; tufa:lent. With regard to some of the colonies
they had of late years med. emeidenuble redactions. He
Waved that in I insist and the West Ladies generally the
military :re new wag upwards of 4,500 lees than it was in
IM.t. wed In Aortal they had lately reduced the force
Coca 44".0 to 2,620 sea, makl-.g a reduction of 1,380 men.
Thee: + re, without entering into the question that had been
mord, he most dreline epodes to the general principle
of the right tea. gtatlerea, unless good cause could be
'hum in the ease of any parker colony, of telling the
es! c.Cts :tut they should have no farther assistance from
trots clime. !Heat !wart)

).r. N. Sllifli wished to explain. He had not said
Mr is e• :a of the adoption at froo•trede prinedples
we cut: to withdraw ur fonts boos the colonies ; but
tit.t. !mat *bred that system, and as we were revising
the whole el oar policy towards the colonies, it might be
acessery m ante to a clear understanding on the subject.
What lie Lad nil mu founded on the evidence given by
Lir4Gify bdon the committee on the ordnance estimates—
mita ittetatbst Le bed written to Sir Harry Smith, inform.
in Ls that. is the event of say future Kaffir war, the
Canaan tonal upon its own resonroes, and not look for
.Rase friA tido mashy. He thought it right that ail
Ana be emended to all the colonies, and that in
begt.si.;,repreaeratin institutions upon them we might
faVy wit Itendieitherto take on themselvn the expense of
tt,tr cwa defeats. or the payment of such assistance awe
retdind them.

L.rd J. RUSSELL said that when the noble lord (Grey)
Skewed Ice mloaine at the Cape that they nut provide
Iv :Lair own defines in cue el another Kaffir war, he did
Lc: seas that they were not to use her Majesty's
szi, that might be in the colony, bat that =
wee am to incur any fresh expense in
tear
Lie ruttier confirmed what he had said—that

auk can nest be judged of oa its own merits. At aU events
sou time smut elapse before the colonies got their terc-
ets:rim isritutiess; it might he three or four yearo.
happrizr it were two years he should not say that, in eon-
sh.ae-me of that, the military forces ought to be immediately
slisdraeis. It was 9nits true that some of the North
Amer.:sa rates had rases to treat prosperity and Tarp pops-
lamas. witkcu: havice any Bsitisl troops to assist them.
Lit the early bidory of some of those states showed a
ItC:filiAl of massacres by the Indians, who had swept
away the tack white population three or four times bekwe
a watlimist was established. (Hear, hear.) This had
occulted is acre than (me of the states of America. That
ortsialy was tits mem which had induced him to
tact a snail forte to New Zealand at the cost-
■ ‘cetirat cf that colony. (Hear, heat.) With 100,000
tAits of a my weeks aerostat, and a few Englishmen
is os the alsad without military insistence, he should have
hurl theta similar answers might take place- (Hear,
tart Hering beta one of the advisers of the crown at the
hermit,' of that colony, he had sot thought it right to incur
qt, a i... (Hear, heat;
Kr. J lt. SMITH argued that our whole colonial system
yea hay se we paid in many ways far too much for them,
p.to.y for Canada, ihich he characterised lea " worth-
ies' poesessoth.”
to J WALSH thought that the army was not the best
sikoct for e.e prunics hook at the present moment. The
tth 'draw pus cued to inferpellate Mr. Cobden, touching
"Si isptewhce regarding Russia which had been attributed
l• tin trines of questions whose relevancy to the subject
min dirmis was loudly denied by members on all
weaklir. I(d MACLE said question bad been asked, '
li insetted. might lead to souse mistake out of
dom. It re:erred to the allusion he had made to the es-
usastion of °lkon. This expression was, that he
to* tan keg tone the adoption of that system ; but at
not then wee se natation of bringing it into operation.
,t.tiltt the officers of the army kept pace with the men in
ccltrsr ictt4eace, the met injurious consequences to
tie "my' meat be expected to follow. (Hear, hear.)
WA °Luta in the question, which had been put is to
4,tt:Le, Set. he would merely state that the matter would
betlaute:y iviturtti into, and reported upon by the oom-
trod ,thire.
Hr MUNE. in reply to a question that had been asked,
he t the gouda for his motion were very few and simple.
, hut !tenth* army had sot emended 80,000 ; now it
was lievein, besides the addition of some eatirely new
eats, es the pensioners and the dockyard battalions. Os
meads he proposed a reduction in the only estimates
tc hlt could be made. He was not anxious to destroy
!thee
mice, but amply to uphold the credit of the °ossify.
sasearaost were adopted, they* would sti'l be as ta-
mer. of 18,000 sea over to years behad referred to.
The eseneette• thee diviSe4-
I'..r Nr. Hume's amendment 6O
TAgainst it
cute wee Um' agreed to.
1)4 the vote oa atone: of 1,700,0001. to defray the ex-
it" *1 tat Haisaty'elad forme,
lie II CRE se that he ring 'Omitted ti the house what
ka•forel to him to be fit aid proper, and the house bevies
te.-ttd hy a majority of Z 23 to 40, that it was not in favour
3:r t.Tehmest, he wend mot further soapy its time by op-
rand the vote for Um inantenasee of the men whom they
Gat ;ad i.sd
i 115.,, bow.)
742 ULItitIES 111i4 AM it wet a most "
inconveaiest
Pearl to the voting of these estimates, that the
submit natively to the judgment of the tom-
'tt sem sitting ap ato assn. He wished knew
th.t
nether tten wee say ptebeb,lity of the investigations of
4cast. ; .4,4 heft te any materiel reduction is the vote
..PZlWitd, whisk was het a part of a greater sum. lie
e. " that Ike House of Cemamens had been set aside in
ed.s mat importantpurt el its hastiest (Hear.)
ti>hSSELI. speed with the right hen. gentleman
-tw rens he campiathed si was come whisk it would
'' "lea peneaseatly to follow. The comities wee
Item eiese to tune, and it hated only till it made
r:a .;•ft the House of Callalool. The ordasage and
e„'l.Twir.. hiving bees fully amide red by the sonsmit.
t a..sedte ►
laid before the boom is the regular manner ;
sot the came with regard to the army esti-
y were obliged to bring thrill krwird La the
lt L 144 been louad fault with by the right hoc.
Isdass.4.
lan
..? to Sir H. WILL(.O"GH/IT, wise esmplaised that
ancrease in the estimate of the present year for
iiw•
ge,veyance of troops of 67,0001., as compared with
..:4; IIIM:LE said that the instates axon hoes the feet
. .;•," had seen no general movement of troops (feria*
• ..i.•!.;!KO: John, with the view of seethe the mosey
le t. Fended on their removal. list as it wee Awed t'le ex testily thconvenient that troops should re-
..., 74.1t..et Pen is tLe sane platten, a expenditure
movement
Par. aid of CHUM the expenditure wan
Tp • si edeeeTbenee of that postal movement.
'144 wall them %peed is
, THE NAVY
L ESTIMATES.
• r bhiMMU was about to Wing' forward the
rf eetwastee, who
eliZNUAltithi rose and said that he hoped the navy
WOW set be Isenght forward at that Late how.