The Express.
London, England, 1850-02-15 00:00:00

FEBRUARY 15, 185 b.

, oust of the feeling of thieletople en ihs
A a* omens certain se the en
A;mitrassaa .190111* ( Milky) aid
es*y 8 had Wakes his wood ; .he the right
boa. bere (84e G. Grey) &sled that MA had boon
the woo.
Sir G. understood the has. seslessan opprolits
that he was assakes in that Inertial's.
Sir W. KOLIIBWORTII—What was the fast t It wee
Wtress %bat Ole liarry,Dwitk blame. NU ha bad ins
to brash his word.. At par 4od despelsk be
ises wards : •
This (the maw of =Mete to the Ow of Gard Hips) plasm ow
a smut delleats INA peliMpssitint; Memo ylatiguilinpoif In
begieladve Omagh to the Weals% epos the Mbar gear kW*"
despatch of the 7th
hem)ag they natendls up to IN 63
that plodge—(boar, —wiikii it is now oat tit
sr power to do.
(Hest, hear.) Tharofore, he was impaled hrefelato this
el;; sad what was the teesessasses t The esieshts sir-
rebelled, aid Sion the movists were slat away.
(Hear.) The right hos. Woad opposed th. Nietica, be-
mese It woe way to appeal to that house to prevent any
okay bolas seeds a sessiet settlement. Bat what did the
Mum Wilt to these questfose, sad give redeem to
the oolowilb t Only when lb. question was between
titc robollion of the aoluty sad the withdraws' of
thr4smoramoat from their original late alias. He
what had liappesed In the Caps as a west blow
sad cause of danger to oar colonial empire; for it had told
all the colonies, especially the southern colonies,—" If yea
want to save yourselves hest the tyranny and the power of SDI,
Colonial-dam, your only means of so doing Is to use threats
and mcna:es." (Hear, bear.) He was sorry to dud that
feeling extending in the southern colonies. Only a few
days ago, he had presented a petition signed by 8,000 per-
sona in New South Wales, threatening to um every mesas
to resist the revival of transportation, and stating I. plain
end distinct terms that to persevere in sending eoeviets to
that colony would and to ever their connection with this
country. (Heir, hear.) And this was before they beard
of the seecessful issue of the struggle ai the Caps of Good
Hope. (Haar.) He deplored rivaling which tended to
produce a conviction in the colonist, that their only means
of obtaining redress from us was by proceeding
to these ex-
tremities. (Heat, hear.) The right hon. baronet said
the motion if carried, would make transpoitatiost more
& I Scale. f there were no other reason than that, he would
gladly vote for it. (Hest, hear.) Ever since ha first
brought this subject nodes the consideration of the house, he
had be.. most minions to abolish tramp/Motion. (Hear,
hear.) It was impossible to keep the col miss, if the
system of transportation continued. (Hear, hear.) We
bad no right whatever to sake the colonise our cesspools, to
diabartben and east away our crime epos them. Those
which were strong enough to neat and of English race,
would n allow us to do so. Therefore, both bemuse he
thought the Colonial.offies ought not to poems this power,
and as a step towards the abolition of tranaportation, he
should most chserlully vote for this exotica. (Hear, hoar.)

The ATTORNEY GENERAL said the bon. member for
Southwark bad not spoken to the question immediately
before the house, which was, not the propriety of abolishing
transportation altogether, not the expolti ray of the conduct
of the government in reference to vie Cape, but whether the
house should take from the crown the power now vested
in it of &doing the plates of transportation by
order in council, and make no provision for such
pleas, but wait till the salient of the different colonies could
be obtained, to know whether they could safely legislate to
make them sock places. Than was no allegation that could
be supported of any breach of faith on the par: of either Sir
Henry Smith or the goverment. (Rear, hear.) Government
mut *e asomists ; they were now landed, for immediately
the dined of the eelankte wes_peperly iotio2and, orders
I were gives te sled them en. Ma would not enter on that
safest; these were Misdeal earagh in the question itself.
The how caber sought by his motion to repeal pert of the
acts of 6 & g Geo IV., which empowered her Majesty, with
the advice of her privy conned, to appoint any places in her
Majesty's dominions for the transportation of felons and
others under sentence of punishment. This would repeal
ell the orders so made ander this act, there being no provi
Mon for tke continuance of those places which had been
already appointed as places of transportation. The simple
object of the motion was to take away from the crown the
power of appointing these places by order in council. The
hon. member did not prelims to touch the third section of
the act.
Mr. ADDERLEY.—Yes, I do.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that if he did not this
state of things would occur. The crown would no longer
hen the power of transporting to places where salutary
control and means of reformation were cHered, but weal.;
retain the power of confining convicts in ship., or buildings,
or other places, where they were without the means of con-
trol or reformation, by employment on public weeks or
otherwise. The consequence would be, u their terms of
transportation expired, they would be set at large, and be-
come free men, but more contaminated than before. But if
the hon. gentleman proposed to repeal the section he had
referred to, what became of the reformatory processes at
Woolwich, Parkhurst, tad other places 7 This power wee
given by the use section which enabled the crown to appoint
places either at home or abroad for the reformation or control
of prisoners under sentence of transportation. By repealing
those statutes, and making no provision In lieu thereof, he
would repeal the whole of those rules, and prevent the go-
vernment from employing prisoners at Woolwich or else.
where. If it were proposed to take away the powers given
both by the Act of 6 Geo. IV., and that of 24 Oeo. 111 , he
should object to it on several grounds. First, it was a direct
eiolatioa of the prerogative of the crown. On looking into
the history of the matter, then could be no question that it
was originally the prerogative of the crown to define the
place of transportation. The motion infringed the prero-
ptive of the crown, and repealed a statute without provid-
rrg any means whatever for carrying into effect sentences of
transportation. Those who did not like transportation, end
thought it fair to get rid of it by a side-wind, might vote for
the motion; those who did not think it • subject to be so
lightly treated, and who did not think that the government
should be embarrassed in such a difficult matter by the in-
troduction of extraneous topics, would concur in the view
taken of the motion by the right hon. baronet near him
(Sir G. Grey.)

Mr. AGLIONBY, with deference to so high an authority,
doubted the legal accuracy of the Attorney-General in pro-
nouncing the proposed bill an attack on the royal preroga-
tive. The convict system had inflicted great injuries upon
the colonies. Before long, the remonstrances of the colonists
themselves might grow strong enough to induce the govern•
want to change their coupe. But, in the meantime, it was
a question for parliament to decide whether matters shouvl
become worse. Even in the most diluted form, the intro.
duction of convicts had brought danger, crime, and injury
upon the settlements where they were sent.
Mr. LAW opposed the bill. It wee necessary either to
preserve the polars of the government or to remove the
sentence of transportation from the criminal statute-book.
But he wished some opportunity to be afforded for a general
discussion of the system, believing fully that in justice and
mercy to criminals and to society, the punishment of exile
could not possibly be spared. It was nevertheless very pos.
sible to remove many of its existing dangers and evils.
Mr. HIJME said he should support the motion. He
certainly aiffered from his hon. friend near him (Sir W.
Molesworth) with respect to transportation. He did not
think it ought to be abolished ; but, at the same time, it
ought to be carried out without giving rise to conflicts with
the *legate. He was desirous, with his hon. friend who
proposed*. motion, to see the power at present in the
hands of the Colonial Secretary taken from him, because
experiences had proved that it was not discreetly exercised.
The noble lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, had disre-
garded the complaints which had been made to him, and
be was cot prepared any loeger to trust him with his present
power. His hon. friend had no wish to interfere with the
prerogative of the crown, He merely wished that no settle-
ment, not now a convict one, should be made such without
its own eonseat. That appeared to him a most reasonable
proposition, and be should support It.
_ _ _ .

Lord I. RUSSELL said that before the bowie came to a
division, he wiLhaisedutyut before it the difficulties in which
the government was good, and which he did not think
would be di by the motion of the honour-
able gentleman. The honourable gantlets= proposed
to repeal a
_particular part of one act of parliament
by which her Majesty, by the advice of her council, is em
powered to transport convicts to certain places 'wording to
her Majesty's discretion within her dominimas. At the same
time the hon. gentlemen did not propose to repeal parts of
other bra which gave the same power, and he did not pro-
puma to repeal that power according to which a few years ago
it was decided to send convicts to Gibraltar, and to keep con-
victs at work in pertain places within her Majesty's
se dominions. (Rear, hear.) That being the ea he did
not well see what object the hon. gentleman had in
view except to show that this power had been used, and
that, therefore, it ought to be taken away. If that were
true, he submitted that they were going to doelide a eery
important question Oa very Insufficient data. (Hear, hear)
Suppose it to be true, and proved to demonstration, that
Hart Grey bad been completely mistaken with regard to the
Cape, it did not follow from that that the power was not
one which ought to exist. Suppose that the con-
•deet of the present Secretary of State for the
Colonies was completely wrong, it did not fot
low that another secretary of state might not make
another use of hie power which the hon. gentleman and
others might tide* useful to the country (Hear, hear.)
It therefore seemed to him to be an illogical consequence
that, because the power might have b.en used wrongly
at one time, that it should therefi re be taken away
altogether. (len.) But, ts to this particular instance to
which the hon. gentlemen alluded, he admitted the great
difficulties in which the Colonial Secretary was placed ; and
the hon. gentleman could not rate these difficulties too
highly. (Hear, hear.) Yet, though the hon. gentlemen
elated those difficulties very fully in his si etch he did not
make any allowanoe for them. (hear, bear.) In the first
place the law auttoriscd not only the judges but the chair-
men of quarter sessions to pass sentence of traosportation.
There were )1,000 seaviets in the year, and together with
those whose swdesse had been commuted. 4,000 persons
were to be trowsperted every . The right hon. baronet
had assased Ids setaefr4adof tyrannical conduct. If his
stable Mead had been desirous of taking the chance of send-
ing eat eaweills te a jpertisalar (okay, and if great evils were
load is arise lima lie ssaseatration armee of &criminal
elifireetwr, sad that • haribie state of society !existed, his
saki [dead sight be *We to the charge if he did set :at-
tend to any rerWsealatieas that cuss to him, with regard to
soh a state dosage. Re did sot wish to into the history
of what occurred at the flaps • for, though he thought the
esissista were justified in saying—whisk they were iasited
is de—whether they whited these eoaviets te be sent to the
=. and wkether they wished to have it re.
a penal solos, he eensidert d the manner
Ia whisk their aee had hew expressed did
no hawser to these who adopted it. (Hear, beer.) Sir H.
Smith said that the (radios of the coaxial was inside the

N
. w.l. j.

prebst: (Hear,. boar.l Re had no doubt that Bir H.
Bmith was right. sad that these pen as wishing to gad a
pretextmrued it it the theroductioa of omelets. (Hear )
fir IL went eery fee is his chain to easeiliate the eon.
Vie, great meek wee due to him, seasklerieg the dials
ink eleenaMonem it whisk the sassy was plaited. Alth heoegh
mud
thee thee a ship with eanyiets would ann;p.,
b a theneettems were to lead them, ha ro.
plied to waitgonn all be hell resolved farther insinuate= from
Imam Bat when the colonists were inferesed that the
erdela elestneil *bald lot be carried into West, that the
Cape would not be made a penal settlessat—that declara-
tion having been made is April, and still more formally
is a despatch of Boil tier's in the some month
—when that was known on the one hand; and,
on the ether, when Bir H. Smith declared with
steepest to the three hundred convicts detained inside the
bay, that he would aot land them from the Neptune
withont further instrestions, any pima would have
thought that such &encode's would have satisfied the cello-
ants. (Hear.) Instead of that there woe great excitement
when it was sound that no more misls were to be soot
out, sad that the order It coated would not be
1:0671061 into effect. And one gentian= even asked at a
public meeting, how it was to be home by them to me a
vessel in Simon's Bey which they knew contained convicts
on board. That, he thought, was going to an extent which
was hardly bearable, because they knew that there were
convicts at work in Robin's bland ; and to say, whilst their
eyes wire every yeas accustomed to see convicts in Robin's
Island, that the sight of a ship coataining con-
victs, is Simon's Bay, was what their purity could not
beer, was going to an extravagant length of excitement
and indignation. (Hear.) He maintained that the motion
of the hon. gentleman was inexpedient, that even if he
proved bis case with regard to the Cape it did not follow
that they ought to agree to his mottos, but that even with
regard to the Cape the case is se exaggerated that it would
not bear out the hon. gratlemsa in the view he wished to
Javelin on the house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. STANFORD would not support the motion, but at
the eame time he wished, in doing so, to guard himself
against the suspicion of not desirini, to see justice done to the
colonists, for he was of opinion that no coney should be
made a penal @sunniest against its will.
Mr. ADDSRLEY replied. lie did not found hie cue on
the Cape, th. ugh he brain/ht it forward as one of the *troop
at eases in illnstration of his view. It the noble lord wanted
others he could point out New &nth Wales and Norfolk
Island, wad in fact almost every colony they had. It was
not surprising that the people of the Cape should think the
winless were to be forced upon them wenn they saw a vessel
full of them in Simon's Bay month after month. (Hear,
Mar.) The noble lord said that they had kept their ward.
Tiny did 60 after the resistance of the Cape. (Hear, hear.)
He did nut say it was tyrannical conduct on the part of the
Colonial Secretary to B.k the opinion of the colonists, but to
ask them and not to wait for an answer. (Hear, hear.) He
asked the house not to consider the question of transportation
as involved in his motion, but to decide upon it as he pro-
posed it. (Hear.)
Mr. ANSTRY rose amid loud cries of "Divide." He
hid but one question to put to the hon. gentleman,
_which
would not occupy much time, before they proceeded to a
division. (Hear, hear, and" divide.") He wished to put
this questi..n, because up= the answer which it should
receive would depend his (Mr. Anetey's) vote. Some
observations, in reply of the hon. member who introduced
the bill, led him to infer that the object of his bill wools' be
to prevent her Majesty's government sending cornets to
the colonies witch they had already determined upon not
sending them to, bat, instead, to deluge the other eolooies
with them. Was that the intention of the bill or
not ? Perhaps it might be otherwise. D:d the
hon. gentleman mean to move the abolition of transportation
altogether, and to provide a substitute, is is that case he
(Mr. Anstay ) would be prepared to support him? Or, did
his bill go to ab dish transportation in some colonies to the
detriment of others--say Van Diemen's Lend—which alto-
gether were certain to be ruined and demoralised ?
Mr. ADDRRLEY regretted the hon. member had not
been present d .ring the debate, as, had he been, he would
clearly hove perceived that his bid intended nothing at all
supposed by the hon. gentleman. (Laughter, and cries of
t' Divide.")
The house then divided, when there were—

Ayes
Noes

110

Majority against the bill
PUBLIC LIBRARIES.
Mr. }MART moved the re-appointment of a committee
on public iihrariee.
Sir G. GREY said there wu no objection whatever.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (ENGLAND) BILL.
Mr. PUSEY moved for leave to bring in a bill for the
improvement of relations between landlord and tenant in
England and Wales.
Mr. AGLIONBY was understood to oppose the introduc-
tion of the bill; but subsequently withdrew hie opposition.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill; and the bowie
adjourned shortly before 10 o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS FOR THIS

EVENING.