The Express.
London, England, 1861-05-31 00:00:00

Allil►l~(trLl)

flu the intl. r of the thiy for gniui iuto committee ou the
Coetom• eirl lubtoie Verrutic Bill.
..........

Mr. SIELLVIIt resioneil the !shale. He prteest,,,j,g,inot
the ceselusises .l,.wu be hie hoe. friend the 00mph.... for
lbsrselakire, and the boo. masher for the Welt Riding.
who hand their olumsition to the paper duty repel mainly
..s the giouad of being no surplus, sod who sno-
t .nded that if the position of the country would jai.
lift' say reductiou ef taaslim • preference should be shown
to tea mid weer over ;epee. lint both of those hoe. gem-
thrown hied voted for the medallion of the paper duties.
however, they believed there wan 'no turplut how we. it
that tiny bOW asked for • remisaios of the tea mil eager
duties to • larger mount than the paper duties? It
had lees ...id that the government would be by
the Inds eimilers uovesoquence of their on&
nverd to the Galway contract. lie did not beltere it. U
!Sow geetleme had a quarrel with the govonmemt, he be-
lieved they woold fight it out manfully sad ispnalnand out
eyrie. thro ois mach • queintim at the preempt. If, hew-
ers,. the eeeee ent were defeated by such • emehlealies,
it would Los .Ktuiy quite independent of the merits of the
quest we bef••nr the eoutoitter, hot should the molt be that
they were to go heck to their eoliditiposte, he should hlo.
eel he too happy to meet has imittituents iu so good • sere.
10.10f11 from the oppuedite.) Ile imaeludril by asking the
lions., be the ietermts of track, of eds.:mash sod of liters.
tore, to reveal the papur duty. (Hem, hear.)
Mr lildltAIKLI rupliested the oppositior• Irma the
'her r which had hem made apilast am.. of wanting the
poWL time and ohetrueti.g tlos public Moises. 11, semi
tiesieleg the data mow whirls the surplus estimated by the
Osasseefler of the Fieheepter was (misled ; and dimmed
et mime kerle the question whether tho procedure with
this form .4 hill was plat as respected tho privilege either
ul the House of Lords or of that boa.,'. 1:e ionsidered
that the ioloptim a that forte was milerrraMM.
awl ; ma its object was really v. n 4. I 04...2. It.
temiency was blialifthet to m Ceatl4, r••••1'.... There
was WO litlaTol halms• the two 1ea.... sod he should
be epode willies be make any ..oce....sis
the shrilly .4 the loose to prevail sev's au atirUrtUnAte ix.-
..weenier. Awl d there weer us each e or.:•.•••r, owl the
lerils had i... 1/ .loss what the law mad u.. 4., parliament
testified, sod wheel, "Meters themaelvet tail sieetiowel liv
their mesulos, r.. dotioes mad eves thri• nmizeud
e2/1-4, why *book! Cies this year bb110.1,4 .41.4111/.. their
Main., alai pins lire collision, mil realer out of
the qinsf...l.? \Vet:, retard to the .m. 1.1% hr het never
eied ite 'ablaut.% hut led comae-110d re:Menem of Lee,
Gus fieueoled elm ii, awl he sow Leid it iliwn :64
e 4 our daisural system. that is mai TM:lift...Li of taxatim
war bare—tin iierm•e wit mad the War Jostle Up..., tea and
sugar Moult remove the drat attention. The '
fore the house ••••re so grave sad so ietWiately lemed up
with the interest* of all elear of the community--for
qieetiona which esurbt give such w 3stWrt L. nor social
corehttoes g•werally an them upon whieh Ih. taasal,a of
the imutry was established were really the graved
.toosUons that could be brought before them and he re.
;;.rotted that the lam gentleman should li.se thought it
sereseary to imprimis epos the boom and %slue a great party
the fo t that they hail a duty to pert.... ; ho (Mr.
Itisrach) sire that every lionouratdo gentle.
man word.' perform hie duty with a full mime
of the emporia of of it. (Ileer, bear.) He did
not think, slut ire might have been the r,tui ,l'. beard in
kWh..." or eit riviwiolirre -le laugh) - that the bee. gentle-
"..n who, li.ivieg movesl the adjournment of the debate,
had on doubt spoken with fuller oriustd••ration thew might
.4 lore., has•• been the ease, would hive introduced such
t•il.: .. lie iinhembiel the hoe. gentlemse to say
lb it the m••tion was brought forward in cons*ivueece of
..".,u mini tvriai a.iti.ll4.lr. (Hear, hear.) That WY the
stetement which the bon. sal harried goothsloorh tiler
intense reties tine, hail thought it right to mike All that
he illr. could say upon that subject was,
th it aim &cajun to ask the opinion of the
lonise "tins he policy of the govern emet wise
ampoinced seeks lotion, those rumour. MOM. Kimmel
Niir did be know how it was powiible to have imbed the
minim of the house epee that policy at II more moveeieet
ic on earlier stage. Rut it warn MK merely these allure
abet weer brought a.44lnst a greet party who Wore WI **visible
.4 the respousibility of their decision, as the gm:atoms
• mild be who sat opmalt• to them ; hot they were chem.)
with hints' taken the roam they had, from nnworthr Red
aeititlrf motives. He ithe right limy regimen) !mad
it I that he had had as interview with as hal.

'ideal who was deeply interested in this mitscpriee,
and that be had promised the support of those gentlemen
who honoured Lim with their ounfidiroce, to that individual
in his squabble with the government. He (Hr. Disraeli)
had had oo Inch interview whatever ; it was an impudent
fabrication. (Cheers.) He war bound to say that • must
respectable gentlenisu, whose name had been mixed up with
the telegram. that had palmed between England and Dublin,
had, unsolicited, offered to him to state iii the most solemn
manner that befitted a gestleman of his sacred calling, that
he had neither directly nor iudiroctly sanctioned such an
iiiiprea.Ms. (Cheers.) He (Mr. Ninth) knew nothing of
this questa*. When the pipets wen placed before the house
he should read theta, as matters of that kind required
to be read, is a perfectly impartial spirit ; and he shouhl
decide upon any question of that kind is the mine spirit in
had sleeve derykd lino them - namely, with •
desire to meet the just claims°, others and the pueral ad.
vantage .4 the country. (Hear, liear.) He had now placed
before the how's as clearly as lir couhl tl:e course which ho
intended to take. The question was one of the greatest
intpurt.inc.., !ow it involved not only eonsider.itioes of pa
lice, but the question of keeping Lath with the people who
in the time of emergeucy had traded and supported them.
It Wrolv,sl .snother question, scarcely lees important,
namely, whether they would pursue a financial policy which
io ha opinion would render it inevitable for them to aubsti-
lute for indirect taution en equal amount of direct, and
thus disturb the proportion who h ought to exist between
the two great worms of supply. With these views, and
feeling that the committee would decide upon the great
quesithee before them, and not upon the matters which had
lean so improperly inland up with it, he should oppose the
elause. ((.heers.)

Lord J. RUSSELL- Before I enter upon the subject
which is more immediately under emeiderstion, I feel
bound to say a word or two respecting the last topic which
hee been alluded to by the right bon. gentleman. I do
not do so fur the purpose of making any charge agaistat the
right hon. geutlemaa, I make uu charge, because I heard
from memos rumour, and I believe it to be true, that in
conampeoce of the weintiume of the but majority on the
paper duty it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman
to take the me .e of the boom once more on another
stage of the question. I therefore make no charee
against him of reviving the dieeneioo, in the hopes of
gaining the eupport of some gentlemen who were demon.
meted with a recent decision of the government. But., sir,
it is neoremery tu vindicate the goverument to which I
belong. !believe that my noble friend at the head of the go-
vanireent. sod all the other member. of the government,
are perfectly clear of all imputation on this subject, but
imputable:3a have been made, and having been referred to in
a minimiser of thin day, they enema now be passed over.
(theera.) The deco nes which was come to by the govern-
ment the Galway cootrriet was communicated to
the mace's:mi. My noble friend was asked by a
Crawho seemed entitled to ask the gumlike), whether
would receive a deputation of !nett members on the sub.
jest on Moodsy morning. My noble friend atoolutely re-
futed to remise that deputation. (Cheers.) My uolile
friend sew at once that, although nominally en the subject
ef the Galway contract, much misunderstmeling and fade
acessatios meet erase from such an interview, anil there.
fore he refused te receive the depilation. The company
with respect to which that decision was come to has nom
nael• a long representation with regard to their cam. That
representation will be answered by the Postmaetereienend,
and the eerreepondeoee will be laid before the house ;
but as to the imputatieo that government intends to pest-
peep for six months the decision on this question with a
view of giving the 36,0111.11. which his been mentioned for
the performance of the termer, that imputation is totally
devoid of foundation—(ahem)—and I ct once refute it as a
celumuy on the character of the government. (Heir, hear.)
With respect to another questios which my polite friend
wee aged, namely, supposing this contract to be termi•
sated, and that afterwards it was considered that Ireland
was the nearest 'vend for postal communication with Ante.
nee, was the question to lie coneidereil as summarily con.
eluded without looking into all the eircumataoces that
affected it, including the public money, commercial in.
femme, end transport of mails to America ? Now
that was a totally different question from the Galway con.
tract, it was one upon which the government would act
coolly and deliberately ; but with respect to the Clalway con.
tract iteelfil would say, rather than that any government
should make conceseioas on that question for the purpose of
obtaining voteeou a division, better that ten minietnes should
resign er that ten Houses of Commons should be dimelved.
(Ministerial cheers.) But even after such a emir:anion the
dreaded camequencee would net be avoided. If any severe-
went were to net in such a profligate manner, it be not to be
supposed that such demaude would be coofine4 to one single
quarter. There would be Galway contracts springing up in
every pert of the United Kingdom, end It! or 20 members
might, by selecting a critical time, find the means of were-
mg a ministry. (Hear, bear.) The minister who obtained
office by such aid would sons find his public honour impe-
rilled, and another dissolution or resignation would be the
secemary consequence. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore
impeesible, without a sacrifice of public honour, that any
preprint! respecting this contract could have been listened
to with a view to the division list. (Hear, hear.) I repast
again, that 1 make no imputation spirit the right hon.
pellernau opposite or against the great party to which lie
belongs, but at the same time 1 thin t tis a matter for
the emaiderat:on of that great party bow far they
should directly or indirectlygise any support to an attempt
loch as that to which I have alluded. 'That, however, is a
matter entirely for their own sense of what is due to the
public interest. and their own sense of the principles of
honour which should rule in all Public assemblies. (Heer.)
As to the immediate question Mr. bench had thrown
quite a new light upon it, by suggesting some ether disposal
of the surplus than the repeal of the piper duty. The
welds lord then Proceeded to argue the matter in haat In its
various phases; and in reference to the question
of privilege between the two houses, pointed out
that when that question was fairly raised by Mr.
Kewdegate's memo the other night, the course of the
'imminent was viorliaited by a majority of 190; while us
to the repeal of the paper ditty it would be clearly a relief
to the industry of the coestry, and with the reduction of
the income tan, showed a fair apportionment of remission
between direct and indirect taxation. Referring to an ex-
posit°. of Sir J. Itamsden es a former evening, that the
"republican halide in America had buret," the noble lord
administered a serer* rebuke for such an unmerited attack
on the inetitutines of a great end free pewit..
Sir J. RA MeDEN ruse to *via* but wan prevented
doing so by loud enee of "Order.
Lord J. RUSSELL—indeed, I think nothiag has been
morehonourable to ,his house than the geoeM pain and
grief which have been evinced at the prospect of this groat
and hoe peoplt, being about to null to artm to destroy each
other's happiness. (Hear, hear.) I have but a few words
more to my but I think it is neeemary I should add that
neither with'regerd to America, nor with respect to France
or any of the peat European nations, do I see at. present
any prospect that our peaceful reletions will be dtsturhed.
(Cheers.) The whole world te in a state of change, and far
be it from me to make say prophecy. but all I cun say is
that, as far as I know, the feelings of all states towards this
ementry are friendly—(►ear, hear) ;—tlwt there are no ques-
tions pending apse which a conflict is likely to arise, and
that as far as my humble means ran promote the cause of
Feu and goodwill on earth, it will be coy object and my en.
&savour to do so. (Loud cheers.)
Sir J. KIMODEN said he felt MMer that the house
grout support him in the 'amnion that no words bed
ewer fallen from his lips which could be construed into
exultation over the unfortunate events that were now
taken place in America. lie did contrast the constitution
of America with that of England in order to draw from it
th• lima that it was mar duty to he thankful for and to
strengthen these iostitutiene which were the pride and
glory of lughini. (Hear, beer.) Hat as regarded America.
Isis noels friend well do hire the favour to recollect that
he had referred to the recut ostbresk in America el:web
&ally is the terms of **calamitous events which we must
all of as deeply regret." (I Ipposition cheers.)
Mr. PEACOCKE said if this duty should be repealed
the house would have to Menem the income tax, and aug-
ment the duties on tea and sugar. He wished the
eovm-
mittee dearly to undentaml that, sail to mender the pro-
tweets of sent year, and that they would plum before they
remelted to the remission of the duty on paper, which could
only tend to benefit a few persons. (Hear, bear.)
Captain TA LBOT said he saw there wee very little
chem. of the expenditure of Use country being resluceel this
year. and be wished to ask the committee whether under
the premat state of theme in Femme with bee large army,
awl the position .4 affairs upon the enetinent generally and
is Antenea, this was a proper time to repeal a duty
which produced eo large a portion of the revenue of the
country.

FtfiF.I,LEY said this, debate had lieen prolonged Ay
hon. geoll,mt o opposite no the hope that montething to
their adviudege would tarn up. ('• No., no." and "Hear,
hear.") He had no hesitation in stating that even sap.
posing the duties on tea nod sugar should be reduced in
preference to the abolition of the dotty on paper, still as
be did not wish to see the two nohle lonbi now at the head
of affairs removed from office, illl should give his vote in
favour of the dense.

sir w. JULLIFFE opposed the retention of the clause,
and referring to the imputation that the opposition had
not seoeptel the surplus of the Chancellor of the Exche-
silmitted that It was no part of their duty to chal-
lenge the ststement of the right bon. gentleman, hut re-
cep t experieecii had shown that the right be.. geotleman's
estimate. viol., not be always relied upon. It was not cur-
prising, therefore, if hie estimate. on the present occasion
had been received with some hesitation.
Dlr. LINDSAY described the cooservative oppetrition as
waiting on chances and socideuts ; the dispute about the
Galway contract, therefore, was s perfect windfall for them.
If the government MK* defeated, it would not be on the
merits of the paper duty, but because they had refused to
make 00000111601.11 to certain gentlemen baring seats in this
hams.

Ili, a OSBORNE said that the question of the paper
duty bed Limned ea different an impect since last
that he treated it as one apart fawn the (Meal point of
view ; sod it wee because he wialird to get rid of en embar-
rassing coostituticiaal questino that he accepted the direct
issue which was raw raised. He pointed out that there
had he.. • prat reduction in the number of paper
mills in Ireland ; and that antintry would especially
heoefft by the repeal of the duty. In thnt country
thin wee, seinsral counties and Dome/nue tows*
where there was not • single brekeeller. ass
readable( library. He bed not been able to
ssderelad aba *set of the oppoitine, unless it
woe the enable of Mr. °Wakes nen the govarameat.

Ha expremed bin belief that some of the opposition were
taking
advantage of the conduct of the Iriah members with
with
regard to the Galway contract, and protested apiinst a
local squabble bents nude the Dimon of putting a govern.
mnt out of aloe.

_--
Mr. MONSELL expressed • wish that Lord Palmerston
would make this question • purely financial one, on which
everyone might vote as they pleased, irrespective of party
motives ; hut as it was he must vote against the repeal.
Mr. BENTINCK, assuming the existence of a surplus,
the reality of which, however, be denied, maintained time
considering the general aspect of foreign affairs, • duty
Should not be repealed that could not be reimposed. The
turning-point of the question was whether the present state
of affairs in America would not uecessitate an increase in
our armaments, and be likely to derange our revenue.
Sir J. P.IXTON, in supporting the clause, showed, by
the exhibition of samples, the manlier in which the paper
duty affected the manufacturers of Coventry.
Mr. COBDEN (who was received with much cheer-
ing) rose and sell that the real question was
whether the paper duty should be repealed ; and not
whether there was a surplus, or whether the tea
and sugar duties should be remitted. It was strange
to see • party united and persistent in opposing
the repeal of • tax, however such • thing
might happen, for the retention of a protective
duty. In whose interest outside the horse was
this opposition made ! They were large paper manu-
facturers and large paper printers. As regarded the
French government, in reference to the question
of rags which had been raised, they hail acted in perfect
good faith ; and they retained the export duty in order to ob-
tain reciprocity from countries with which they were shout to
make commercial treaties, and with his (Mr. Cole:tete.) full
assent. He denied that the paper trade had a right to pro-
tection because of the export duty on rap, according to the
commercial principles which were now accepted by this
ecuatry. This duty on paper was condemned by Sir
Henry Parnell in Deil, nod now every other excise duty,
except those oo spirits and fermented liquors., having been
abolished, this still remained. The lion. member continued :
—We are told that the repeal of this duty will do no
good, and we are asked how can the removal of this
1,200,000 f. ref taxation be appreciated! Why the same
argument might have been used in favour of every excise
duty that we have repealed—of bricks, of glass, and of
leather, all of which were items much smaller than thin.
But it has been by the successive removal of these restrie-
tious in the way of our industry, one by one, and not more
than use generally in a year. but each year a removal form-
ing au epoch in our finance—that the effect has been pro-
duced upon the industry of the country that has produced
that state of content, that state of greatness which him.
gentlemen opposite are constantly vaunting as a proof of the
conservatism of the age. (Loud cheers.) lam old enough
to remember when your etreete in London were periodically
swarming with multitudes of violent men, calling out for
some impracticable measure of reform nearly allied to revo-
lution, and every three or four veers the north was thrown
into • state of anarchy and confusion by some failure of
the crops or the closing of some market. But as new
markets have been opened, mill freedom of manufacture
and labour has been given in these various articles, you
have placed yourself, humanly speaking, almost in the
petition that it is scarcely possible to conceive any great
calamity happening to this country, from any particular
quarter, that is not more than compensated by the IMISILD-
uges of the prosperity you have derived from these repeals.
Is it a hard or difficult thing for us to govern people who ask
only to be ultimo.' to work—who are contented if you will
allow them to labour and earn moderate wages! Do not tell
me that the people have not clamoured for these reforms.
We are here bemuse we are mu to know better than
they, and that is our only title to be here. And with this
long experience, can there be any doubt but that it is the
tare policy for us to proceed in the path which ha. been
marked by such a career of prosperity. (Cheers.) It is at-
tempted to frighten us, by saying that there is some impend-
ingadamities threatening us from the western hemisphere.
(Hear, bear.) There in that deeper, but it is the only
danger that threatens this country. I can conceive no other
great danger or calamity but that which may arise from the
short supply of the raw material of our industry—from all
others we are guarded by the number of our markets or by
the variety of our resources. The calamity from this source
will not, I believe, be so had as some hon. gentlemen
suppose. But, admitting the danger to the full extent, you
can do no better under those circumstances than follow the
path pointed out to you by long experience : remove the
shackles from industry, and there will be a better chance of
the people finding employment in every possible way. (Hear,
hear.) We are told that instead of taking the duty off
paper we engirt to have removed the duty from tea or
sugar. (Hear, bear.) I have no objection to either, or
both. I can even hope, with the average prosperity that
we have seen for the last few years, that io another
year we shall materially diminish these duties ; but I ant
not so rare that the argument made use of with consider-
able steer by the right hon. gentleman the member for
Bucks will be realised with regard to the market for our
manufactures' in China. We were greatly disap-
pointed with the " opening up," as it was called,
of China in 11440, and I think that in less than
three or four yeses we had • committee of this house
sitting to inquire why our manufacturers were so disap-
pointed. I may say, in passing front this subject. that I
have no faith whatever in the opening of China to English-
men. From what I can hear, it seems that the Chingos
merchants are quite as clever as our own, and we are told
that they are superseding us at Singapore, and that they
have all the liminess between China and San Francisco,
and I believe that if China is opened up at all it will be
opened up by the Chinese and not by Englishmen. (Hear,
hear.) But whether this will be the cue or not I shall be
happy to see • reduction of the to duty, though not with
the certainty that it will produce the same ex-
pansion of our manufactures ea the repeal of the
excise duty which we are now discussing. Have
hoe. gentlemen considered what is to be the end of the present
struggle I fancy I see boo, gentlemen opposite arraying
themselves very much in the same way that they did It or le
years ap ; for they are opposed to much the same influeooes,
and I fear their opposition may lead to similar disasters.
For what are you aiming at! You are aiming et preventing
the Chancellor of the Exchequer from taking* course which
he lies not chalked out for himself, and which he has not
originated, for I cannot give him credit for the least
ori-
ginality io his proposition—(laughter)—and lie cannot be
accused of uctang with any precipitation—sod you are pee.
venting hint from going on in the path that every govern-
meet must follow, I do not care whether they cull
themselves whig or tory. (Cheers.) Now, is it to
the advantage of honourable gentlemen opposite
that they should plaes themselves in this petition! If you
succeed by a majority in overturning this government anal
coming in yourselves, you must instantly adopt the very
policy which you are opposing now. (Cheers.) There is
no alternative. These are principles which are rooted in
the public mind of England. You must remove the leer
rien which impede the progress of commerce and manufac-
tures sn as to give a chance of employment for the increas-
ing population. And you yourselves have the greatest inte-
rest in that policy, and in nothing more than in the repeal
of the raper duty by giving employment to • superior clue
to thaw which are affected by the operation of any
other exch.° duty. If I were • young men just
fresh from college, with nothing but education
in the world, there is nothing going on that
I should look to with more interest than the making
perfectly free of the press of the cuuutry, by re-
moving all the taxes which tend to render dear and scarce
literary productions. (" Oh, oh," and cheers.) I should
want employment with my pen, and when there are more
editors, more newspaper contributors, and more shorthand
writers required, niust it not lee an advantage to the rising
generation cf educated young men ! Do nut test this as •
light matter. I am not going to ineence hun. putlemen
impusite ; the last way I should think of in-
fluencing them would be through their fears. But
it must wit be forgotten that there are .100 daily papers at
Id., almost all of which advocate this repeal ; while the 70
or 80 dear papers issued daily are all trying surreptitiously
oropenly to prevent the repeal. But if it came to a struggle,
ouuld it be doubted what the result would be iu the country,
with MU daily papers and an almost innumerable weekly
press supporting the measure We mint regard this
as a political question, and no member am
go into the lobby without seeing that it is so regarded.
I say, therefore. this course will set against the opposition
the party who desire the emancipation of the prem. This
is not • fiscal gamete-en—it lime bear male a political meet
tine ; and I ask the house as politicians to take thie view
of it, and see whether this course can lead to a successful
issue for hon gentlemen opposite. I have been so little in
this house of late that I am unable to enter into any nata-
tion as to the rival strength of parties. I like to see an op-
position with some principle, belonging to it, and which
would make it desirable that the country should
have resort to them if they wished to have
better measures ; but I tell you candidly the course
you are taking—at whose instigation I know not, certainly
not of the wise heads of the party—re such as cannot poem-
bly give the country the benefit of your rerviges, even if
you succeed in putting the present government out. The
course you are taking an only lead be a Ineg anal protracted
struggle without imue, which cannot bring you any benefit.
Therefore I entreat luxe gentlemen to let this question pass
—(laughter from the opposition)— let us have thie budget
settled, and then let hon. gentlemen consider whether there
was a prospect of their getting better measures than
the present administration can give; and whether
the present opposition could could into power
without falsifyteg their own principles, air being
themselves turned out. (Cheers from the govern.
meet benches.) I am not going to trouble the house at
peat length on this subject. lam not sufficiently conver-
seat with your deletes of late to enter fully into the dia-
mmidoe, but I have thought it my duty to express my
views is this lame manner. 1 call upon hon, gentlemen
opposite to let this budget pass, and then to proceed to
some other business which they can prosecute to greeter
advantage. (The boo. member was loudly cheered, especi-
al)y by members below the ministerial gangway.)
BARINO said that Mr. Cobden (whom he was
happy to see in the house spud showed that his absence had
been lengthened float this emintry when he asked who were
the opponents of the repeal of the paper duty. They were the
majority of the country, aid, apart from party feeling, the
majority of the house.who objected to that repeal instead of
others which would give greater relief to the people. As
to the surplus, them were two arlditirms to the expealture
of the year—namely, the increased interest on Exchequer
Bills, and the payment of the Searle dues, which had not
bees in the original estimate of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer-