The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-06-27 00:00:00

THE TOWN DUES.

LOCAL CHARGES ON SHIPPING

COMMITTEE

(FROM OUR OWN REPORTER.)
HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY.

The select committee re-assembled this day at noon,
Mr. Lowe in the chair. The other members of the com-
mittee present, were Messrs. Beamish, Duncan, Hardy,
neaullatn, Lord Hotham, Mr. Milner Gibson, Mr. Vance,
Sir John Duckworth, Messrs. Cobden, Feuwick, Moffatt,
and Watson.
Amongst the parties in attendance from Liverpool, in
ltdditi4in to the Town-clerk and Mr. Thomas Baines (who
have attended the meetings since the commencement of
the sittings), we noticed John Stewart, Esq., mayor of
Liverpool; Charles Turner, Esq., chairman of the dock
committee ; Francis, Shand, Esq., deputy chairman ;

Elias Arnaud, Esq., &c., &C.
The Town-clerk of Liverpool was re-called, and pro-
duced the short-hand writer's notes of the trial in 1833,
when the right of the Corporation to the Town-Dues was
disputed by the Committee of Merchants.
In answer to the Chairman, the witness showed from
those notes, and other documents used at the trial, that on
that occasion the Corporation claimed thetDues on the

port of Liverpool.
By the Chairman: In case of a freeman being a partner
in a firm, his interest on goods charged with Town Dues,
was taken into consideration at the Town Dues Office, and
the proportion of Town Dues reduced.
At the request of the Chairman, the witness read several
extracts from documents in reference to grants and leases
from the Molyneux family, but he desired that it might
not be received as his evidence.
By the Chairman: In one of the Dock Acts, the dock
committee were bound to proilde a small landing stage
before the large one at St. George's Pier. The Corpo-
ration had nothing to do with the clause in the act which
compelled the Dock Committee to construct this small
stage. As he had already stated, the Corporation
were not the promoters of the Dock Acts. The
draft of the bill binding the Dock Committee to
construct the small landing stage would, of course,
come under the notice of the Corporation. The Corpora.
tion never took any steps to relieve the Dock Committ.te
from the'obliga.tion of constructing the stage, When, the
Corporation sold the land at WallaY4 Pool for the con-
struction of the Birkenhead docks, they obtained Bs. 2d.
per yard for it. The Corpora non had not opposed every-
thing that had been pro";<sed on behalf of Birkenhead.
The Chairman : Nniy, is there anything that has been
poroposed ref Bence to Birkenhead that they have not
°PP'sr.a.t? M. Shuttleworth Yes, a great many matters.
He, did not think that any proposal originating at Birken-
nead had been opposed since 1845 Last year a bill was
passed for the purchase of the Birkenhead docks by the
Corporation, and under that act the Corporation had
been compelled this year to come to Parliament for a bill
to complete the docks.
likThe Chairman: Do you not think that there is a
rivalry between Liverpool and Birkeenhead interests ?
Mr. Shuttleworth: I do not think that there is any
rivalry at all. I know that the interests of the Corpora-
tion of Liverpool are also the interests of Birkenhead.
This closed the Chairman's lengthened interrogations
to the Town-Clerk on the various points referred to.
Before the Town-Clerk retired,
The Chairman said : Have you any opinion to offer
before the committee as to the settlement of this question
of the Town Dues, by compromise or otherwise? Mr.
Shuttleworth: No.
The Chairman: You do not feel authorised to offer any
opinion as to a compromise? Mr. Shuttleworth: I do
not.
Mr. Headlam ; Before this bill was introduced to
Parliament, was any proposal made by the Corporation
for a settlment of these dues ? Mr. Shuttleworth : Not
that I know of.
Mr. Vance: You have said that the Corporation of
-Liverpool do not set up any claim to increase the rates in
Town Dues. Now. upon vt hat do you found that state-
ment? Mr. Shuttleworth: By universal practice.
Mr. Vance : But there is nothing in the grants under
which you are acting which prevent you from increasing
the rates. Would the Corporation like to have the power
to decrease the dues on those articles on which they are
said to press as a burthen, but which you say they cannot
do in consequence of the clause in the municipal act ? Mr.
Shuttleworth: They would very much like to have the
power, and if they had it, to my own knowledge, such
.reductions would be made.
The Chairman: Does the reduction, of which you are
speaking, apply to anchorage ? Mr. Shuttleworth : No.
In answer to the Chairman, the Town-clerk further
stated that he believed any increase in the dues had arisen
from some clerical errors in regard to packages, and that
that applied to the article of coal.
Sir John Duckworth:' Have the Corporation taken any
opinion as to whethor under the terms of the municipal
act they have net the power to reduce these dues, or is it
merely their own opinion? Mr. Shuttleworth : It is net
their opinion. They took the opinion of an eminent
counsel now on the bench, who stated that they could not
reduce them. The opinion was that of Mr. Justice

Crampton_
This closed the Toss n.clerk's examination
Mr. Weightman, the town surveyor, Was next called
and pointed out on the plan the various new sheds that
had bk•en opened, and other improvements made for the
accommodation of the trade of the port.
Mr. Francis Shand was next called, and examined by
'Lord Hotham. He said he was a West Indian merchant,
and a freeman of Liverpool. He stated that he did not
concur in the opinion expressed by a previous witness,
that the Town Dues diverted shipping from Liverpool.
'The reason why some merchants shipped certain goods
'to the east by way of London was, that there were cer—
tain facilities for this department of trade at London,
which Liverpool did not possess. Upon that ground he
(witness) was in the habit of shipping goods to Ceylon,
via. London.
By the Chairman: I think that the Corporation of
Liverpool is legally entitled to the Town Dues ; but I am
of opinion that they should be looked into, and that every
thing should be charged according to value. If the trade
of the port of Liverpool increases, the Town Dues must
also increase.
John Stewart, Esq., Mayor of Liverpool, was next
called, and explained the various transfers of land from
the corporation to the Dock Committee. He corroborated
the statements of the Town-clerk, and shewed that from
time to time the corporation had given large quantities of
land to the Dock Trustees for dock purposes.
By Mr. Milner Gibson : He considered that the Town
Dues were a part of the corDPrate estate. No doubt great
improvements for the latnefit of the port, and for other
public purposes, had been effected, which could not have
been done without the Town Dues. The great landing
stage, the courts r.,`L' law, custom-house, and other buildings
had been ere'.d.ed out of them, and all these places. were
for the be
;defit of the public generally, not for the inhabi-
tants of Liverpool. He would not say that if the Town
Dues. went on increasing, Liverpool would be a city of
pa'..aces.
Mr. Gibson : Then you contemplate the continuance of
the Town Dues whatever may be their amount ? The
Mayor: We are legally entitled to them.
Mr. Gibson : Do you not think that if the Town Dues
were applied solely to shipping purposes, instead of
relieving the householders of Liverpool, it would be
judicious ? The Mayor : It might be judicious, but it
would be unjust.
Mr. Gibson: But if it was a benefit, I should think they
would not care about its being unjust? The Mayor :
Oh I Wouldn't they. (Loud laugter.)
The Chairman here read an extract from the evidence
given before the House 01 Commons by Mr. Bramley-
Moore in 1851, in which that gentleman stated, that the
Corporation of Liverpool had done nothing for the
improvement of shipping out of the Town Dues, and that
the Dock Trustees were at the expense of making and
repairing the great thoroughfares.
The Mayor (on this) said : I beg to say that Mr.
Bramley-Moore is under a mistake The dock do not
repair the public streets of Liverpool. Mr. Bramley-
Moore has not been in Liverpool as long as I am, and I
know better than that.
The Chairman : He was chairman of the Dock Com-
mittee for many years, was he not ? The Mayor: No,
not many years. Be was chairman for a few years.
Mr. Elias Arnaud, late Collo. for of Customs at Liver-
pool, was next examined, and stated that he never heard
any complaints among shippers of the operation ;of the
Town Dues.
Mr. Hardy was next called, and spoke to some of the
grants conferring the right of the Corporation to levy
Town Dues.
The Town-clerk said he had no further evidence to call.
Mr. Alderman Bancroft submitted two plans of the
town and port of Liverpool, which the committee had
asked him to produce.
The room was then cleared, and the committee, after
about a quarter of an hour's deliberations, adjourned to
Thursday next, at one o'clock, in order to consider their
future course of proceedings.