The Express.
London, England, 1861-02-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

110 U 8E OF CO3l MONN.—Wi : N O'DAY, FEL 27.
yederelity's Erpieso.)
K.lTF>t .VMOLMON BILL.
Mr. PACKE seceinlvd the .innlidninnt. He denied that
ri•lnniary exotributioa, ',al be r fair eabetilate for
ehlirrb ultra. It war 4 absurd to may that the repair of the
to on .a•.l to ilepena on voluntary auluerip-
ri..... M.my kiwi,. had goo, t•• ruin tor want I.f hula• to
re.t. th-nt. .

. tt ',wrested, as a remedy to the preeent state
thin.... that sr ionucb 144 now a ii.ati covid only be sakes
into the Iteekshistical Court if he rrfused to pay, that in
lit to lie sufßcient to exempt him. and he should
sot .ftei wards ivy any rate, or vote as to the disposition of
the we... or for churchwardens. (Hear. bear.) This
was nearly in accordance with the recornmen-
.LLon of the valuate* of the house. end he thought
it more literal than the tall of the hon. baronet.

In, !.% N('ELIA )1i of the EXCfIEQUER said that he
L. i limit in the speech of the hon. gentleman awl la those
.4 oth-r 4on. members during the Friend documioe
ef a throning character. namely. that ..o both sides
.4 the house there WWI a growing peou'axe.ti it would be for
'he credit of the house and the Innalet ere that they should
brut •; this nuttier to an end. (Hear, bea, Veaterility a
to NI urn WAX moved for, wleela that during the
last 20 years there hail been •20 bills for the abelitios of
rhumb setae introduced into that bowie. and rejected. It
°mainly was not iliesinible that iu the year Innl a return
should be called for upon the same subject, and again pre-
sented to the house, showing a i eggely auceunt of empty
eionaeopmeces and ill ioiii• shipwrecked like these. (Hear,
bear.) While be gladly acknowledged the fair
&PIM of the speech uwde he the 1100. baronet, he must
refuse to vote for the secotel re:elite; of the bill, bemuse
h.• did not think it emil.l be made the heal of a settlement
of thia eex,d reiteitios.. Ile sr.is Lot willing to entrust
the feline .4 air chant,. s, whi••ls to this hour were •mon4
the chief glories ef the country to the voluntary aystsmi.
If he wi iokel 1,... I.e wuo6l le!e4v...A. In proree.l 111
this toss", isilinitt..l that the.-" +oho t of 0.11,111.a...fa
should show that they mailed and however
inr.perfet their amuse...tees might be, however difficult it
might 1.. to ifeliato the promo, the, were lowed to say
that at least in their owe view they were cot miss idle
words. lie rem.' only soy, withoat sutering into details,
that be ow no 41.• late TrAleel win flier xho:Ild DOA moored
in sonic sit••lo manlier as this. They should begin by fairly
accepting the power ..f the vestry to abeloh the rate. which
up to th.. tone they bad sever ceuverted into a right, be-
tsum far a. law and legal diet., were renewed, though
the a tetra mielit refuse to make a rem the obligation 4.
auppert the church still 'aided. They ought to convert
that ismer of the parish into • right ; they should noble
the with be its owe delibente nil oedema in to pees
as it were into • new elate, of which Dew stale the eharac-
t. none steed.' ho then/mere—or, as the lion. hayseed would
peeler nithug it, the abolities-of the preeut law id church
rate. .11. mg with that he troubles firmly maintain the right
of the lavish to tat itself where the will of the parish was
le veutinue the old custom. Thee they theidd &era sheer
pariahs. is wl el, the old church rate h.ol tepee.) by the vote I
of the I.,eiah—aa was on. sug4o..!. d I.l' the hon. member
he 4 11.lbala- the power to form a Aur•sh vestry. which
a1.0.a1.1 take the place of the old vestry end should still
esercee the p wee of sell taxation. It appeared te hiss
II ..t on • Wei. of that kind sate eittlemetit of this pigsties
0..,:ht 1 • armed at. Ile did not propose the exemption of
rs simply because they were told domain wen
unwillio; to accept IPX•01t011. If on them tenet.,Of lams
like them it was inipoesi for them to come to ea seer
meat. lie owl.' may oy that he deeply regretted It t• sad if
such an agreement meld not lie msee he had no option bat
simply to record hie vote as he had recorded it teems. In
that suss they had little before them but the prospect of
slm.et 'oiler and hopeless &Menem. The cause of the
has. baronet bad sot matte much progress in that hone
during the last year. There wen an opposition to hies
which was in itself string, just X• the support which he
re...nivel was also strong. Hut they bad sot that house
alone X, sisal with. They must ask themselves whence
this wa. • usse is which they had a right to expect tbe ea
sect of the House of lewd,. New, • gentleman dides.
(feistiest in the menace of the house, in • valuable contribu-
tion to our oinstitutioeal literature. had pointed out that
in substanee and for certain purpeere they could sot deny
to the Ilene of leads nosy of the elements of • Formes-
Wive charm-IA r. It wee representative at any rate of one
elan be meant especially of that class whi h was interested
is the lamb Well, the House of Lenle had thought fit
ham year to year, again and again, to nee t bills going up
from U.,. house for the purpose of elemptieg the land from
the burden of church isles, thus refusiug to easier on
thenisrlees that miermass pecuniary bone which was prm
posed to he confined apes them by the Oleollieo salueli-
sr.eat of the has. baronet and biz •
(lainghter.) He thought the emery would fee7Pt=
taking that comes the House of Lords was
aot Interfering with the privileges of parliameut, but was
°mislay ine a %trees, sad probably an impregnable coaitioo.
(Hear, Isar.) No use would rejoini more than he should
if a satisfactowy settlement of this enemies could be come
to' but it was his bounden duty to record his rote &Pilot
the mond reeding of this bill.
lir. BRIGHT observed that an Mr. Gladstone propneed
virtually to abolish church rates, he should begin by voting
fur the bill. He denied that the evils which Mr. Glad.
arose snpreed likely to Memos if this bill passed would
happen, or what a dmilnege would it argue is the
ties towards the established church ! What did tCra ellit
seinen object to ? They felt that this was • strut* for
aupreniacy, a supreruecy asserted ea the part of • great
establislbinent which was as much political es religious.
Mr. Bright denounced the practice of the ale of
livings in the church, enlivening the delete by *erne details
urea the subject. Ile saw not long ego an advernerneet
in • very iefluential paper of a patron wishing very much
to find • gentleman not less than eft years of age to whom
be could give • living. (Laughter.) He was called a ills-
intereeted patron, but they knew perfectly well how disin-
terested be was. The other day, in the parish of fit. Luke's.
there appeared this &prod : "To ell swim are interested in
the eluirch, this speed is node by the parishioners of Eit.
Lake under the following circumstance : On the 27th of
this month the next premetation to the above parish is to ,
.old by suction, unless previously purchased by private
retract. The parishiosers are most anxious to snare
a faithful whinier, and to prevent a tractartan pereNtidift
the living, especially at the present time." He did sot
know that there was anything particularly offensive in
tractariatia, but they did not seem to be liked, awl the
parishioners of St. •Luke's appealed to the public to buy
this using, which was ring to be sold under the harmer,
in order to secure • Christian parish and congregation from;
the calamity of having a cantor thrust Opel& them by a
privatepatron whom the parishioners might condoles. A
few weeks ago greet attention was called to the ease of a
sale of a church living, which would be amusing if it were
not absolutely shrieking. There was a place in the
neighbourhood of Dies, in Norfolk, called tiiielfanger.
His right to the nest presentation we. sold at Garraway's
Coffeehouse by Mr. Clark, of the firm of Farebrother, Clark.
and lave. The auctioneer read the uotke, which stated
that the property was to he sold subject to the life of the
present incumbent ; that them wee a residence, coetainum
so many beileon.., and so many actin of glebe land; and
that the age of the. loeunibent was stated in a document
possession of the venilne—(laughter;--obtained in the year
1816, in which hie age was there stated to be 45 ; that the
incumhent informed him that be was born on an Easier day
which occurred about 1770 —(lasighter)— on reference to an old
heyer• hook kep• in the chereb—it was the auctioneer who
was making this statement—be fomul that Eaeteralay ee•
caned ea the day nientionert in 1771, end did not occur
again till 1773, nor again till 1710, and therefore there was
ho doubt that be was torn on the 13th March, 1771. Thee
he anted that the population of the pariah was Sip, that
the duty was neweio; avid afternoon, and the income was
from :AOC to 141 W. a year. Ile ad del I was much
struck when I law Mr. Morris vesterday"—the auctioneer
had bees to ethelfanger to me Mr. Xenia, the ineasibent.
" bee question he pat to nits was, • I suppose yim
have OMNI &WO to see when I am going to .lie!
Then have been gentlemen for the lam four
ut Ave years v;.iting me—(loud Iseghter)—about
Mery five ar six weeks —(resewel lauchtera— and, at last.
all I did wee to show my some at the top of the stain." 1
mist " I have mine down for Do such purpose ; it is so
part of my duty to say when you snip gesog to die ; but, of
reams, having regard to your age. which is en mneh above
the otahlary age of man, yon cannot aspect to live Yam
lova. (Laughter.) Thee further, the auctioneer• address.
inghi I coogregation, anti, " I have sot mid sword whether
nm will have preeemios tomorrow car in the nest ten
years. I can only my that the incumbent is of the 141,•Deell
age of ninety. and you tiny calculate the day
it will fall is." Then there was seine bidding
—list zonoc, then 5..71.101., sod then the auctioneer told
them it was • charming egrindbiral dotri.t, inhabited by
tenant fanners of great respectability, that time tithes were
(wily collected. The Mather row to 2,600 e, aid be then
said if any one was desirous of putting a 000 into the church
this was so opportunity that was aot likely to occur again.
That rained the biddies' to 2,11001., sad the auctioneer then
used the leaguer of reproach, an said the property was
to he eierifieed ; bat the property wee ultimately sohd for
oeenne. and the name of tbe purchaser did not transpire.
Now, as he bad said, that would be very musts( if it win
net shocking. There might be ibises hawen that
created dietnrhanee swag the Deacceformise
oaken of England and Wales. Nobody dais=
human infirmity end passion were the same erarywheee ;
but he would undertake lousy that so such thing as that be
had described could be pointed oat as having taken place
~ruoir;st the nescoeformists. Hoe, gentlemen opposite, if
they ',odd remedy sneh as abuse as that Mrs stroke of the
pen, would he glad to do it—dhear• heart—hut wheel they
considered that the mescoeferrniste of England had been
Imre& up with different tradition,. lie must may they
wen been to take that iota comileration when they
nand rases to oration is any ease any support to a re-
lions and political sitabliehmest which permitted
wash ocesireeraes aa that which_ Ira had just related.

Ailvertiou in w -7' Peeeye-eied ReTime,* g• mesa thall
they were the repiseeetelives ef may I. tL. chunk Who
pissed seder the articles end weeds that (-harsh ; sod
dm a divided ri ei ought set to imp». •• impost •• •
hedy of the* fellow4oiestrywea wird to the osteasible
raeseliers of that chafe aunthen.
Mr. I itsItAELI said that d tide bill was carried, its ant
Wert would be to deprive pariah... 4 the power of self .legie-
latioraaltep a hirh creed oot to be favoured by the prof/wove
of popular • pia The taw ea it stood was foaadial co
the sie aiming fesility fer reloeue warship to

the peopled this country ; but it was declared to ha a
grievance to the dissenters. Now a dissenter was not an
alien, but as Englishman with all his feelings and rights,
sail it was his dutr to yield to that niapuitt to which it was
apart of our eavaiitatnetal sestem to defer. as it was hie
right to take advantage of that majority when ho belonged to
it. If the dissenter had a grievance On this matter, had not
every effort been made ;owl messures brought forward to
re-
lieva him from that gra% Knee by exempting him front the pa j •
meat of the church rates? He viuilicatial himself (nun the
mputation of havingroade this aparty question; and be was
only influenced by a desire to rescind the resolution to which
the house had come with rrgard to the abolition of church
rate.. w hich was necemary before any attempt could Is•
made at au lol—pate adjustment .4 ibis qty.stam. .tlthottch
!sit .1. Tttlawur hod repudiated any intention of danuy.;ing
the yetablisLy..l church, yet 31r. !bight had avowed that
this measure was directed against the church as an estali-
lislinient. It was true that there is, a great mail signifb
MIA di:forme, between the church 14 England and thoae
mere episcopal associations in Amenea whieli Mr.
Bright had ikscriCod—a difference which it WA/ reeolval to
niantoin.

Loral J. RC:t4ELT, said that in considering this question
they were bound to look at the state .4 the church of Eng-
bina, and to are how best its interviste could be maintained.
The vexed question of tithe had loon settled hy parliameut.
to I the revenue derived from it leoll horn le eeelully applied
to the pnrposes .4 the church. Other gliegiona of church
property hal been satisfactorily strangest, and to the bene-
fit of the church. The lancet matter in dispute was
vitally capable .4 settlemeat. The question was not ono
of attract tight, but of the advantage of the choir. h.
He slid not think that the exemption of dissenters
would be a settlement of this oiliest ion. By
meeting to that plan you ported with the gnu.
ciple of • national chureh ; while the difficulty of car.
ruing it into operation would he insuperable. He was rather
surprised to hear that a diffienhy would be found in country
mashes in getting voluntary cosittibutious, because he hum
that in them p,rishes the inhabitants were almost all church-
men. A ...mat number of parishes in almost all large
towns had entirely freed themselves from church rates, set
the chore-hes in them had been kept up, and repaired and
n,tored when necessary. He believed that the landowners
would he willing in many instances to give lend or rent
chars:vs suffhient to provide a sum for the repair of parish
Aunties. (Hear, hear.) 11.- al., conceived that the ',dun.
tory contributions from the landowners and farmers of the
dilfereut perished would iD these days amount to • very
large sum for the repairs of the church. (Hear, bear.)
There had happily been • great revival of late years of the
spirit to support the church establishment in this country,
and no perm could travel throughout the country without
among new parish churches which had been built, not by
contributions derived from the Ecclesiastical C.1111111i118.100,
but by the voluntary offerings of lauslowuers—(beer) --who
were glad iu that ler, to promote the comfort and the religion
of their neighbour., and who had shown their feeling and
piety by those endowments. (Haar, hear.) He could not
believe, therefore, that if the vitnow. • year was taken
away our parish churches would fall into decay, or that
they would not be kept up in all their grace and beauty. if
that were so, then it would be a grcat advantage for throe
who were friendly to the church to promote the object
of getting rid of the present source of difference
between the church and dissenters. He did not
believe that any man in the House of Commons fur
the sett B) years would venture to make any
=tioa touching the church revenue origin from tithes
led property ; but how was it with regard to church
rates ? Did any num expect that supposing a majority of
the home rejected the bill of his hon. friend the agitation
would be at an end' (Hear, hear.) Would the friends of
the church treat that defeat as a pleasant prospect to look
forward to' He knew very well what a dimentingagitation
(Laughter,and cries of "hear, hear.") He MUM•
loved that the dissenters combined to put an end to the
dave trade, and also to put down slavery % and be recollected
the number of papers they seat round to every friend is
the house and the country, with the view of accomplishing
those worthy objects. They would use the same machinery
on this question, and bring it to bear at every general
election and on every hustings, and he believed the agi-
tation would last until the church rates were
finally abolished. Would that agitation be for
the advantage of the church ? (Hear, hear.)
Would any man, looking only to the interest of the church,
to affirm that • long agitation—a coldest lasting,
say, for five or ten years—would be a thing from which the
church could derive any advantage! (Hear, hear.) The
right boo. ;oedemas said that books had in times past
been written unfriendly to the establishment, but that they
were sow unread and their authors had fallen into oblivion,
while the church remained, as it probably would remain
atm aces who were taking part in the prevent agitation
bed dleappeared. He (the mode Iced) quite believed that
that would be the case ; but be did not believe that the ex-
igence of the estabbalimeut at all depended upon the cen-
times's' of these church rates. (Hear. bear.) On the con.
burn he thought that the sooner they were abolished the
Ircsad the better would its foundations become.
AL POLEmid that after the speech of the noble lord,
so ailment from the speeches which the house had heard
from him on other occasion—(foal char.?—and after the
strangely illogial and inconescutive arguments which the
noble lord ha just put forward, he (the right hon. gentle-
' man) @Medd like to say • few words before they went to •
division. The noble lord mid that the existence and pros.
perky of the church of England did not depend upon church
rates. He (Mr. Walpole) said the same. (Ministerial
cheers.) The noble lord pointed out other great questions
which had been made the subject of a parliamentary
settlement. Tithes, church estates, and the church
car in Ireland, had all been subjects of dispute, and
had all been arranged by the legislature. But did the
noble lord wish the ham to infer that he wished
the present question to be dealt with in the same DM'
Tier? If he did, in which of the came be bad named had
the church ever been called upon to abandon the whole of
her claims as the bads of the settlement! (Cheers.) In
every one of them the church had oely been asked
to consent to what was considered • Tameable settlement
of the quetion ; but the noble lord Dow &eked the house to
abolish church rates altogether by way of arriving at • rm.,
amble settlement. (Chem.) He (the right kon. gently
man) maintained that there were still means remaining for
a fair compromise ; and he prote test against the conduct of
the goverament in neglecting to do what was their dut7,
and then saving that the ease was hopeless. It was said
that they were now entering upon • new phase of the con-
troversy That was true. Hitherto it had always been
considered that when a grievance was acknowledged, if •
remedy adequate and complete were offered there was au
end of the matter. Is ibis me it was admitted that
there was a grievance ; but the remedy which was held out
was ample and sufficient. It was admitted that the
grievance was but a trivial me. Even the hon. mem-
ber for Birmingham (lir. Bright) said it was only
a matter of 2d. in the poulad. (Hear, hear.)
But those who were clamouring for its redness would not
allow it to be removed because they wished to keep it alive
for certain ulterior objecta which they had in view. (Cheers.)
They would not allow the thing they complained of to be
got rid of, became what they were really aiming at, as the
hoe. member fur Birmingham bad that day distinctly stated,
was nothing less than the severance of church and state,
and the appmpriation of the church revenues to other put.
pose& (Loud cheers.) Was it right, then, that the govern-
meet, whose duty it was to uphold the institution. of the
country, and to provide a remedy fur admitted grievances—
was it right that they should allow one of those institutioes
to be imperilled because they would not take the trouble to
apply the remedy which they would soon be able to Sod if
they were tidy in earnest? The 'simple gumption for the
home was, whether they would give up the existing
provision for public worship which the noble lord bad
always till now said was bound up with the
maintenance of the union between church and state,
—whether they would give it up without providing • sub-
stitute? (Cheers.) It was true the noble lord bad referred
to voluntary institutions as a substitute. Nobody admired
voluntary contributions more than he (Mr. Walpole) ; but
were there no other pure ens for which they were wanted,
and to which they were already applied? Voluntary con-
tributioes were admirable things to meet any special emer.
gamy ; hut they were not, and could not, be • proper sub-
stitute for a provision of a pernument character ; and the
only effect of passing the bill would be to divert pro Mato
voluntary contributions for other objects from which they
could ill be spored. (Hear, bear.) If the agitation must,
as the noble lord intimated, continue, the blame must rest
on those who would not accept an adequate remedy for the
grievance of which they complained, but who kept up the
coolest in the hope that for the 'ventage ground which they
thought they should obtain they might he able with more
effect to assail one of the institutions of the country.
Kir J. TRELAWNY replied, and
The home divided :
For the second reading
Against it

This result was received with loud cheers below the
ganZaldi was then read a second time, and the committee
was fixed for Wednesday sent.
Mr. NEWDEGATE gave notice that he should move an
instrut.tiou to the effect (as was understood) that the
church rate should be charged upon the county rate, and
that the occupier should be empowered in every case to de.
duct the amount from his rent.
LAW OF FOREIGN COUNTRIES BILL.

Lis bill gamed thromil committee.
NEW BILLS.
Leave wee glves to kiwi is the following bills :
4-* the mots* of If r. DOODY Stuart, Bill to consolidate
and amend the .w relating to costs in actions in the superior
court. of common law.

On the motion of Mr. Cut•l, Bat to relieve certain trusts
on the Hnitheal•rosl from debts; Bill to amend the LJeal
Govern:mut Act.

On the motion of NT. BLACESURN, Bill to amend the
Valuattoo (Scotland) Act, lith and lath Viet., e. 91.
thi the motion of Sir. Dentin, Bill to amend an act of
the twentieth and twenty-first yearn of her blejesty, for the
abatement of the nuisance arising from the smoke of fur-
naces in Scotland. _ _ _

EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice
that he should to-night postpone the Consolidation Fond
Bill till Motolas, when he should move his resolutions osa
the subject of Exchequer Balls.
The house ruse at a quarter to six.

The uumber of patients treated at the Samaritan
Free Neonatal for WIXOM and Children, Edward street,
Fortnianaquare, daring the week ending Feb. 23, was
1,004, of whisk 210 wan now canon

MISTING (PY

THR LOW ER HOUK&
fitreRTAN7lBll It ITALY.

Roe, eases WorwriwriwriL Preeeated the fol.
lowing petition, signed by a `teat number of the members
of U.. Lower House :

the underalgwal members .4 the Lower House of
l'onvoention id the l'nwinee t'anterbury, respectfully in-
vite tie Littention of the Upper Hons. to the opportunity
now afforded by Divine Provideuve fur the advancement of
true religion in Italy.
"We termini with thankfulness the facilities offered at
the present time fir the difinsiou of the Holy Scriptures in
th..t .-"nary. and we rejoice to learn that mato, Italians
have shown a desire to procure copies of the English Book
of Common Prayer in their own tone e, and have expressed
their approval of it.
"We &reef opinion that the church of England ought not
to rtmuin passive and silent at so impixtent a juncture, and
we euniestly pray that she may be enabled by the Divine
Mewing to avail herself of those means which are now
vouchsafed to her of promoting the cause of Christian truth
and unity in a country to which she herself was indebted in
the sixth century for many spiritual !metals.
" We theref,;re humbly submit to the consideration of
your grace and your lordships, whether it might not be ex-
pedient Hat a committee of this convocation should be ap-
pointed, with ivatrurtioua to prepare the draft of a letter
from the bishops and clergy of this province. representing to
the clergy and laity of Italy the blessings, spiiitual and tem-
poral,which, under God's Providence, this church and realm
have continued to derive for three centuries from the
English reformation, preserving as it did the holy scrip-
tures, the sacraments, and the creeds of the Chriatian
church, and the three orders of the Christian nindatry,while
it purified them from noveltits, errors, and corruptions.
' We would also suggest that such a communication from
this synod might convey to the clergy and people of Italy
the assurance of our hearty sympathy and co.opemtion in
all the efforts that they may make to fellow the example of
England in reforming herself, and to maintain those scrip-
tural soil catholic truths and ordinances which they have
inherited from primitive antiquity, and to clear them from
those abuses by which in the course of ages they have been
marred and blemished.

" We therefore humbly pray your grace and lonlships to
give the requisite directions for the appointment of a com-
mittee for the purpose of framing the draft of such a letter,
to be submitted to this convocation for consideration at
110010 early opportunity.•

ACC/AMON OF THE QUEEN.
The Rev. Mr. Scrotum gave notice of an address to his
Grace tberresident and the Bishops of the Upper House,
praying their lordships to consider in what way the 2Dth of
JUDE, on which her Majesty commenced her happy reign,
and for which special prayer is provided in the Prayer
Book, may be most speedily and effectually restored to its
observance as a national holiday. Tito rev. gentleman said
be had submitted this u a notice, but knowing the diffi-
culty of dueling with a motion upou the subject, he laid it
upon the table in the turns of a gravamen to the Upper
House.