The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-11-10 00:00:00

SHIPBUILDERS' ASSOCIATION.

An adjourned meeting of the members of this Association
was held yesterday, at ten o'clock, in the Regulating
Office, for the purpose of receiving the report of the Com-
mittee appointed to meet the Committee of the Journey-
men's Association, and to treat with them on the disputed
questions in the trade generally.
Mr. J. W. GREEN in the chair.
The other members present were Messrs. Ladmore,
M'Keverigan, Johnson, J. Evans, Potter, Smith, Dawson,
M'Elroy, Clarke, Cato, Grayson, Paul, T. B. Jones, Legg,
Fitzpatrick, R. Williams, Robert Evans, Honorary Secretay,
and Mr. Crosbie, Assistant Secretary.
The CHAIRMAN having obtained leave, in the absence of
the report, to state verbatim what had taken place in
the interview between the Committees, said—Your Com-
mittee met the Committee of the men on Monday evening,
and the first question submitted to them was, or nearly so,
" what have you done in any way to increase the number
of men" ? The reply was " nothing." The next question
was to the effect, ' Have you any proposition to submit to
our Committee" ? And they submitted that they would agree
to work by piece-work, and if that proposition were enter-
tained by this Association, then its Committee to draw up
a scale of prices, and to submit it to them ; then it should
be arranged by the two Committees, and submitted to the
body in general. There may be opinions for and against
piece-work, but probably, under all the circumstances, it
would be the means, I don't mean to say that it would
be a requisite means, but it would be the means of getting
a fair day's work at all events, they would only get value
for the work they did. And if this Association
agrees in that system, then, probably, it may be
carried out. This suggestion is partly ours, as
well as theirs, so that, probably,. there may not
be much difference of opinion on the subject.
Mr. CATO said, as one of the Committee, he might men-
tion that it was nearly unanimously agreed to, that the
system of piece-work should be adopted and tried, to remedy
the present evil, which he had no doubt it would have a
great tendency to do. And if there were any one present
that had anything to say respecting it, either for or against,
it would be as well to state so, and discuss the question at
once. There was, he might say, one unanimous opinion on
the matter, as Mr. M'Elroy alone dissented from the
system.
The CHAIRMAN : But I suppose that Mr. M'Elroy did not
dissent from it on principle, but merely through considera-
tion that it would not be efficient in itself.
Mr. GRAYSON thought there was little doubt that the
..+o —.11.% by vieue-work would be a decided im-
provement on the present mode of acting, and would enable
them to get through the work with comparative facility.
The only fear was that, in avoiding Scylla they would run
on Charybdis--that was, instead of not getting sufficient
work as they thought now from the men, they might be
getting too much. He hoped, also, that there would be no
fear of not having the work well done, which was a still
more important consideration than the time which it occu-
pied in having the work done. He was no advocate for
piece-work generally. He thought the samples which they
had in their iron-knees, which had been forced on them
within the last twelve months, were, he was sorry to say, a
very different description of article, to that which they had
formerly taken pride in turning out of their own shops. He
did not wish to make any objection to the proposed system,
- but they should take such precautions that whilst adopting
measures to increase the facilities for carrying on the work,
they would at the same time look to the more important
consideration of having the work well done. And he thought
the committee, before they proceeded to draw up any scale
of prices, should endeavour also to have a fair understanding
about the amount of work that could and would be well
done in the day's work.
MR. CATO What does Mr. Grayson mean by saying
having " too much done" ?
The CHAIRMAN : I was going to make the same remark,
and to say that the wages as the value of so much work
would regulate that.
Mr. W. B. JONES thought that the quantity of work
would be regulated by the price. It would be considered
what a man was able to do, and to do well, and then the
price could be regulated by the London book, though in
some things he thought that very high. Mr. Grayson, how-
ever, had justly observed that it would facilitate the carry-
ing out of the work, and so keep the business in Liverpool.
Manyshipshasleft this port andgone elsewhere to be repaired,
butifthepresent system were adopted it would give much less
trouble tothe masters than the oldsystem, and the ship owners
would be able to get away their ships in time—a matter of
by far the greatest importance to them. As regarded the
work being well done, the men, he observed, for the last
twelve months, on putting the ship into the graving dock,
spun out the oakum from the ship's side till they got to the
lower part of the bilge, which they ran over in the last two
or three days of the neaps, and thus the work was not
efficiently done. Now he thought by working piece work,
if there were a good foreman to look after the men, and it
was the master foreman's duty to keep a sharp eye on them
and see that the work was done properly—that what
some members feared would be completely prevented.
They saw ships constantly coming from St. John's and
America that were built on the contract system, and they
were splendidly finished. There was no difficulty in the
matter. If they looked sharp they would get the work quite
as trAl rinno oc Apr am limy if not a littla }lath, in his
opinion. And as the report of the Committee in favour of
the system had now come before the Association, he hoped
and trusted that they would agree to it, and have the matter
carried out as speedily as possible.
The CRAIRMAN: Does Mr. M'Elroy make any objec-
tion ?

Mr. MTLICOY could not see very clearly how they were
going to better their condition to the extent which Mr. Jones
thought, and as Mr. Grayson had very properly remarked
he thought it would be an inducement to the men not to do
the work so well. Now they had no such inducement.
They were paid for doing a day's work, and it was not their
business, it was nothing to them, nor had they any advan-
tage in doing a great quantity. He.thought the great con-
sideration was, over and above having a great deal of work
done, to have it well done, and he thought the system pro-
posed would be an inducement to the men not to do it quite
so well. The masters had their own foremen to manage
the business now, as well as under the other system, and he
thought by the latter there would be only a greater difficulty
in getting the work well done.
M. JONES replied that under the present system, many
of the men spent a great part of the day in the public-
houses, and when they came back they just hopped over the
job. Ire did not think that the work was as well done as it
would be under the other system, because the men would
then look after one another. When men joined in a party
to work they would compel each other to attend to the
work, instead of being, as many of them now were, drink-

in g and idling.
Mr. M'Eutor said if it would all turn out as Mr. Jones
was representing., he should be very well satisfied, but he had
great doubts. He could not see how the system proposed
would cure the drinking. If the men slopped over the work
now, why did not the foreman look to it—and would the
foreman have more power when piece work came into ope-
ration ? His impression was that he would have much less
power.
The CHAIRMAN: But there is this check over him that ho
cannot be paid until the work is done.
Mr. M'Eutor : If all the gentlemen present are as san-
guine as Mr. Jones, I shall certainly make no objection.
)1y only object is to hare the work done, and to have it well
done,
The CHAIRMAN: Well, gentlemen, you may draw the
matter to a very short conclusion now.
Mr. DAWSON said it was not a new principle, but one
which had been tried twenty years ago, and the work was
then better done. The men tried to outvie each other in
doing the work well. They went in gangs, as it were, with
a head to each number of men, and there was full satisfac-
tion given, and they did their work in half the usual time—
it was well done, and much cheaper than at present. Not-
withstanding its being cheaper done, the average of wages
was 18s. to a guinea a day; but the men worked extremely
hard.
The CHAIRMAN : Well, I imagine the opinion of the
Association is, that it be tried. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. DAWSON: Decidedly. I was conversing with one of
the greatest shipowners in Liverpool, and he ageed with me
that it was the true principle.
The CHAIRMAN : The only question seems to be whether
the work will be done well or not.
Mr. DAWSON : There can be no doubt upon that.
Mr. LEGG : I am of Mr. Jones's opinion that the work
will be done more properly. The good men will lOok after
the bad.

Mr. GRAYSON: But I suppose if a shipowner should de-
cidedly object to have a ship repaired under that system, it
will not be so universal that there cannot be an excep-
tion.
The CHAIRMAN : I don't imagine there is any ship-
owner in the present age, who would do so.
Mr. JONES : But we must have a fixed rate of wages, Mr.
Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN : Oh, your Committee must arrange that.
If you will allow me I will read the report. I had not the
document before. The uestion was, have you any objec-
tion to work piece work ? q The answer was, No ; our Asso-
ciation recommends pike work, at prices to be arranged by
the masters, and submitted to our (the Shipwrights' Asso-
ciaton), and then the Committee of both Associations to ar-
range and agree upon them.
Mr. W. B. JONES moved that the report be adopted; that
a book of prices be got up and submitted to the Aisociation,
and then, that a meeting take place with delegates from the
operatives.
Mr. MTLROY : Would it not be well to have a book of
prices for the men ?
The CHAIRMAN: The men recommend the masters to pre-
pare it.
Mr. MTLROY : Why not recommend them to make it.
They have it ready. That we know, and why not submit
their prices ?
The CHAIRMAN: There was a difference of opinion
on that ; it was supposed better to have one list than
two.
.1
Mr. W. B. JONES thought the book of prices would
look better emanating from the masters than the men.
Mr. DAWSON : I'Vhy not adopt the London prices, which
have been found to work well ?
The CHAIRMAN : They will have to be examined ; in some