The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-02-07 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL-YESTERDAY

eee men who have spoken are taking up this matter very
-e• . properly, indeed—talking about rights of property, and
The usual monthly meeting of the Town Council, was so sensitive upon them. I llopewhen the gas question is
held at eleven o'clock yesterday. John Stewart, Esq., taken into consideration, when the council is attacking Mayor, in the chair. private property in the same way, we shall have the
same language
,used by Mr. Hornby and Mr. Picton.
lt
The
pecial (Laughter.)
voettil, were read. minutes of the last meeting, and of the s
Mr. Robertson Gladstone : I always thought the
THE LIVERPOOL TOWN DUES. question of town dues would sooner or later come under
Before the minutes of the finance committee were discussion, in a way which would lead to a final settle-
Mr,
ment of it. We are not, upon this occasion, I suppose,
Mr. Picton rose and said—Mr. Mayor :It has always to enter into a discussion as to whether the town dues
been considered, ever since I had the honour of a seat are a legal charge or not on trade, but I may say, that I
in this council, that any question affecting the privileges do complain, and complain very bitterly, of the manner
'of this body, should take precedence of all other subjects, in which the rights of this corporati in hate been
I waited to see whether any other gentleman, more attacked. If we are to have an in airy into our rights,
ft ,
Influential
than myself, especially the chairman of the if we are nut justly entitled to them, let us have the
`
lance,l committee, would have made some remarks to principle fairly discussed, but do not let us countenance
uncil upon the subject of the portentous attack an attack Upon us by means of a ladder, and a man
obih has been declared against our rights and nrivi- getting in at the window. (Hear, hear.) Let it be a
Ickes, and our property, as we conider it, in the House straightforward proceeding. Now, we know very well,
psenl3lCoMmons. (Hear, hear.) No gentleman having that it is a very favourite, and a very common practice
to speak, I cannot resist rising to allude to the sub. with the government, when the business of the session
Ject• It appearsuto my mind, that it is a subjectready;paramount
before very frequently, it refers to a subject of which thry know
us, until every effort has been made upon our part. to precious little. (Hear, hear ) Jut let tie look for one
avert the threatened injury to our rights and properti:s. moment at what is Proposed by tlefi vice-president of the
-Lear, hear.) It will he for the council, sir, to consider Board of Trade. He, at I understand, intends that the
what steps ought to be taken. The finance committee, town dues Shall be placed in the hands of government
or
any other committee which may he appointed commissioners! Well, I can understand anything in
!heiranecially to look after the business, will no doubt do the wide world but that. To place the charge of poitnds;
utmost. But we, as a council, representing the shillings, pence, in the hands of a gOVernment who
Inhabitants of Liverpool, have a duty to perform. of a cannot manage their own, whose own accounts will not
Pnhliu nature, and from that duty,- sir, we must not tally, who can scarcely make an addition in a debit or
Ad 1,
;intite• (Hear, hear.) The inhabitants of this town can- credit account -correctly ! (Hear, hear.) These are the
beentamely sit down, and allow a property which has men wile propose, after all their blunders in the east—
handed down from generation to generation, pur- men starving on the right ; and food lying rotten upon
chsed and paid for by our predecessors, granted by the the left—these are the men who propose to take your
brown—sold by the Crown, indeed—traneferred from property and manage it for you. Well, now, I cari un-
and to hand like any other property, and finally pur- derstand anything but that. If we were obliged to place
chased by the corporation of Liverpool—surely the the town dues in the hands of those who are prictical
nhabitants of this community cannot tamely sit down men of business, Which I contend the Liverpool men are
and allow themselves to be robbed and plundered of with all their faultse it would be some satisfaction, but
bear) Now, sir, I shall not make a long speech upon pretend to take our ways and means from us, and tell us
-8 aUbjeCt I hould rather listen than speak. My that they can spend them better than we can, and more
object
is,
simply, to bring the subject before the council judiciously, is so absurd a proposal that I have too
'''',at the matter may be immediately taken up, and that much confidence in the country to believe it
fll
Ivnatever measures the council may consider ever entertain it. (Hear, hear.) It reminds me o the
iltessary for the town and the community to be case of the boy who goes to school, and after spending
lalsett, that they should be promptly and all the money he has brought from home, he finds
,%.ctiently commenced- My own view upon the matter another boy who has got something left and fancies it
-' mat you,
as chief magistrate, should call a town's- would be a very agreeable thing to go shares with him,
flee at
in
s order that the opinion of the inhabitants and therefore suggests a way in which the monhey may
mild be fairly and properly taken. (Hear, hear.) If be very economically laid out so that he mayhave a
at be
xi, A the wish of the community patiently and quietly to direct interest in it. (Hear, hear.) That is the sort of
'-`
down under the threatened injury,' then be it so. We, feeling which appears to actuate the government. A
....ill a council representing the inhabitants of the town, more childish speech than that of the vice-president of
',.a1l at least have done our duty. (Hear, hear.) But, the board of trade I never read. If the government
;, on the other hand, there be that spirit which Ibe propose this as the way in which they would manage
-fl_teve there is, among the inhabitants of this town, in the trade and business of the country, after the lesson
r.eolefter:lthteoythis matter, they will petition as with one they have learned, after the late complaints and the
went,
lila—
thewyill besiep•the doors ofthe houses ofundoubted exposures which the administrative reform
_,C -
Properly- will gnt up a case representing fairly and association have placed before the country —if they
, and trittakfully, the real nature of the circum- propose to go on in this way, I can only say that the
stances attendity; the whole of this question as connected sooner they are displaced the better. (Cries of hear,
ee h cur t°wr, dues and our property ; they will petition hear.)
evilletakeeard '°
counsel at the bar of the house, and they Mr. Picton moved a resolution to the effect that the
the 'ever); means in their power to bring forward Mayor be requested to convene a public meeting of the
ea-.., in that light which I believe is the true and inhabitants of the borough, to be held in St. George's-
;t el'at one, not the very different point of view in which hall on an early day, to consider the course to be pursued
.is at present represented by the ad captandum manner in con,equence of the bill introduced into the House of
.4-4 which, lam sorry to say, it has been made to appear Commons by the government for the abolition of passing
an the speech reported in the Times of yesterday as tolls and the regulation of charges on shipping or on
!delivered in the house of commons. (Hear, hear.) goods carried in ships, inasmuch as the proposal to
'lt aPPears in the speech made by the vice-president of abolish those dues without compensation, or equivalent,
fthe Board of Trade that every receipt, whether it be to this or any other corporation entitled to such dues,
rom the dock dues or whether it be from the town was a measure subversive of the rights of property
s, or from any other source, is debited to the account hitherto held sacred in this country. (Hear, hear.)
of the corporation, whilst for expenditure upon the Mr. Earle: Will you just allow me to ask a question ?
other side no credit at all is given ber.riu-' a fee', paltry Mr. Pieton proposes that the meeting be held as early
matters which are really of no moment whatever. as possible. Should we not wait until wo have. the bill
usedinstances are given of vessels havivg taken on in the first instance, in order that we may know the
lona.rd part of their cargo in the Birkenhead docks, and particular form of it?
Ivthmg taken another part in the river, and being saddled Mr. Picton : That will of course, be in the Mayor's
thei Liverpool dock dues. This is
put to the debit of hands.
theLiverpoolLivr corporation, who have nothing to do with
L
So in regard to several other instances. It
tl,' in in a leading article in the Times in regard to
subje!t, that we never laid out anything on behalf
of the commercial interests of the port, excepting some
il;nltr £3 000 or £4,000. What, then, have all ow.
oPr Y ovetnents been made for during the last thirty or
p ri,tY Years ? Have they not expressly been for the pur-
e4f of improving the commercial avenues of the town ?
la
lar, hear.) To give increased accommodation and
rclities for the working of the docks? (Hear, hear.)
esat the amount of money expended in building the
and :ue buildiuogs, the custom house, the excise offices,
to o;7portion of which was never returned
the ,_ by the government (hear, hear),ooo, besides
TheZad, pe.:haps worth two or three times as much more.
in Lowigriin, all these these things, let it be understood,
Rovern• .in and many other places, are done by the
butt ment. Here •tve have not only to pay customs,
are Provide a building where the customs duties
sea to be received. Then there is the great landing-
Oret:le' which will cost an enormous sum of money
liun'eu altogether from the revenues of this corpora-
'Get; (Rear, hear.) Reference has been made to St.
and ge's-hall as having cost an enormous sum of money,
and been
H. taken from the pockets of Manchester
buil i?`"er manufacturing districts ! 'What has that
enst..` ing been erected for, but to facilitate the ends of
shirlece.in the southern division of the county of Lanca-
all tf:lwhich Manchester, and Bolton, ane Bury, and
quite a large manufacturing towns of the county are
Illieht,,rtir;,tleh interested as we are ? (Hear, hear.) One
of char time would p-rmit, go through the whole list
equaneges brought against us, and show that they are
sir, Dert' ntlfounded. But I hope, the time will come,
enereY shortly, when we shall have an opportunity of
(iztearPtlielY stating our sentiments upon the subject.
eieuia_ ear,) I feel
glad and proud that, at this par-
serer rnetnaergency, we should have a gentleman presiding
aegnains,
As chief magistrate who is so thoroughly
itot, th'',e,l
in all our affai:s; and, I doubt
/vhiele it
Willin the various matters of business
Nsite, , be necessary to transact, and the interviews
place eeren_ ,
oh es in high office which will have to take
service-s the subject, the value of our chief magistrate's
thou?,,h; Will b acidly made apparent. (Hear, hear) I
thqs to take
toy yM Mayor as nobody else got up, attbjeet the very earliest opportunity of bring this
!hat 1 t'iPtieer the notice of the council. I shall only add
I.° Preh in some measures ought to be taken at once
be "re ourselves for the coming battle. (Cries of
bear, ha )
kr.,.ar.
that thPaahrlornby : I quite_ agree with Mr. Picton
bike , s queseion which it is the duty of the council to
etc hal!'e with the least possible delay. As a corporation
Nviliol vi.u.o beneficial interest, sir, in this large property
lest feu, centuries centuries I may almost say, until within the
ieuhelw Years has been considered the indefeasible and
bear. ,"able right of the inhabitants of Liverpool (Hear,
but d We have no beneficial interest in that e.troperty,
en,i wtheiar.e the trustees of the inhabitants of Liverpool
Xed hs a question, sir, which interests every owner of
iteor,urronerty within'the'borough of Liverpool. (Hear,
does 'a_ I think lam not going too far to say that this
eißhts,Ppear to me to be a wanton infringement of their
fights, ord.one which I can scarcely believe the parlia-
eq,yar this country will sanction. (Hear hear.) Mr.
tetvtee'tit4lattempt has been made to draw, a distinction
age co an
e individual owners ,if property throughout
n ee.eeuirY, and communities, which, in fact, are only
also o':,:legate of individuals, and whch are the possessors
the er,) laPerty. In the former case it is maintained that
tights-ot7tution of the country requires that the equal
ceetian
ainlividuals should be regarded with the utmost
Society re reverence, and that where the interests of
Shall be quire their infringement, ample compensation
love() zioi,enrtt;d
jesenae ibt.
But in any easewhete the owner
ugh situated like Liverpool, it
gaernt:naatnPraayr tch_nt,.
evsit:lioat the slightest reluctance par-
ceeleu_aensatoe their property without giving
the first '.itrie inPernb life.i n whatever! Mr. Mayor, this is
for the rich and poYw that I learned we had one law
and weak. It is eererful, and another for the humble
property in LiverpooYi,ttraukee•nsiri that the owners of this
iiatne without much infiuendtvidually, are without
'iatne, and
whilst if the slightestnee in:fttenlthe houses of par-
!l. intentave en Cie' wi th individual owners pt were made to
an 0t le whole of the nobility tri,lroperty you would
siler.l wners of the country, rising e .eotry, and the
, avhe an attempt. (Hear h
a_
e._
that
this measure' into) ear. The parties who
up in arms against
ely Parliament
o he offered knowi
nv
theery
f hat.no such oppos
Arose
nt Instance. Weil" is
I!B:oXcertlingly unpopular tlknow
very well that Liverpool
tor w that she is regarded roughout the country. We
Iv °ogh in Lancashire aull%lie"v3r, by almost every
toennare. told sir, and I am Cheshire,
(Hear, bear.)
100 k urable member for Manchest sorry to see it, by the
be,nl7itil great satisfaction o° tehr
;that his constituency
1,.3,
%introduced by her Majesty's govmerenasure which has
ti7L
soter,t but lam not astonished at it, ;Teem. I regret
teat _lli a feeling of envy does exist, on
the
I know
the neni umber of boroughs in this county eenfiaet uea
viee_e_get.t!tonting county of Cheshire. Therefoalso in
itolititrhelnent of the board of trade has nothine• rte, the
On the e °Pposition of members of that descriptionf:e
to inaiet"trarY, he will be cheered on ' in this attempt,
(hear, heat)au inquiry up on the inhabitants of Liver o p 01.
question
. I think, sir, with Mr Picton,•
this is a
tO be nof so much importance, that .
an 0 called together nn an early d the council ought
befoPPortunity of readint; the bil ay,.when we have had
... r.e the House of COH.I for, Which will be brought
shierio mous, the uprop se of con-
Lop
thinking
the steps which. ought to be take
interestinking, sir, that this
n, and I cannot
being an attempt which
it
would
every ownerof property throughout the borough,
Inhabitants
be very desirable that a publi •
tieoltants sho Id b called ' meeting of the
Mr, vv. Earle u (..! together. (Rear hear.)
: I a m very happy to see that the gentle-

l'he Town Clerk stated, that he inquired at the latest
hour the previous night, before leaving London, for the
bill, which stood upon the paper for a second reading
that clay, (yesterday.) It had not then been printed,
and he was told that it would be in the hands of mem-
bers at one o'clock that day, when it was proposed to take
the seeceed reading at two. (Hear, hear.) He ascer-
tained, however, that this intention would not be pressed.
He had a note from Mr. Ewart that morning, in which
be informed him that it was proposed to fix the second
aor the bill for Monday week. This would he
.csisted in the House, as not giving suilicient time
to those constituencies, which were largely interested
in the subject of the measure. He had made arrange-
ments to obtain copies of the bill as soon as it was
printed and delivered.
Mr. Hodson said he rose wit`► great pleasure to second
the resolution proposed by Mr. Picton, and he was sure
a debt ofgratitude was.due to that gentleman for having
brought the subject forward in the manner he had done
before the council. (Hear, hear.) He himself came to
that meeting, five minutes before the usual time, antici-
pating that a subject of such vast importance to the town
of Liverpool wouldthave taken precedence of every other
question. He expettetl this because he thought that some
member would have taken upon himself to bring before the
•ouncil a subject which he considered of such vast im-
*mice to the town. Upon that point were contingent
-hieh had been under discuesion, and he, there-
• e, thought that some gentleman of weight and influence
would have got up in that room and stated plainly the
whole position of a question which was one of so serious
a character to the interests, the liberties. and the pro-
perty of the people of Liverpool. He, like Air. Picton,
had waded through the speech of Mr. Lowe, and cer-
tainly, although not being himself a parliamentary man ot•
in a commercial sense a practical man, yet he thought any
gentleman who had known Liverpool for five or ten
years could have replied to almost every point
raised, and chewed the fallacies and the utter want of
knowledge of the facts of the case which it exhibited. He
would not go into the sui,ject there, because he hoped a
town's meeting would be called, when he trusted some of
the merchant princes of the town would show to the world
at large, that every word the vice-president of the board
of trade had uttered, was not the fact. He could not
help remarking on one point alluded to by the vice-presi-
dent of the board of trade, who said that many ships
were obliged to go to Chester, because they could not
get room in the town of Liverpool. (Laughter.) Now, he
asked, was it possible that in this age and in the British
House of Commons, there was a member and a minister
who could make such an assertion, if he knew what
Liverpool was ? The only excuse he could find for Mr.
Lowe was, that he had never been in the town of Liver-
pool or the city of Chester. It appeared also from the
speech, that London was to be exempted. London, there-
fore, was supposed to be the perfection of a seaport.
Now, he understood that the London docks were private
docks, and paid six per cent. to the proprietors. He also
understood, that the dock dues of the city of London were
nearly double those of Liverpool. In Mr. Lowe's speech,
he said, those dues had been a detriment to commerce.
How then was it that London was going back so fast, and
that that town was getting on? Every one must
observe that the vice-president of the board of
trade had been crammed, and had evidently been very
badly crammed, and if ever a gentleman got up in the
House of Commons to make a speech who was totally
ignorant of the subject, that gentleman was Mr. Lowe.
(Hear, hear.) He hoped there would be no di►d'erences
upon this question. He hoped that any differences which
had existed in Liverpool between contending parties would
be for a time laid to the ground, and that they would all
unite hand in hand, forgetting all minor differences in the
one great question of the good of the town. (Hear, hear.)
The Mayor suggested that the calling of a public meet-
ing should be postponed until the bill was printed, as at
present they should be only dealing with what Mr. Lowe
put forward in his speech. The bill, when delivered and
printed, might be completely at variance with many very
material points of that speech. For instance, he was now
informed by the Town-clerk that it was not proposed to
exempt the port cf London. It was intended to have a
private bill for London, to regulate the dues derived by
the Corporation of London, the dock dues being different
things—a joint stock company—and the dues of the corpo-
ration were to be dealt with by a municipal reform bill
for the city of London generally. He urged, therefore.
the propriety of waiting until the bill was printed, so that
they should really have some substance to deal with,
rather than the flashy speech of Mr. Lowe, with neces-
sarily a great many ►ni,tal:-s and errors, whichtook place
before the bill was correc• ed.

read in

Mr. Aldermin Dover said the only argument in Lvour
of an early n, was that the c-tuncit might, as soon
as possible, disabuse the public mind of Liverpool and
the country generally. The long speech made by Mr.
Lowe, and the necessarily short speech made by one of
their members, did not. put the question fairly into the
hands of the community. In addition to what Liverpool
had done for the shipping interest already, in the landing-
stage and other matters, and the money they were now
about to lay out upon the other side of the water, he
asked if they had not for ages exempted the Liverpool
docks from parochial and local rates ; had they not
exempted the docks from what they really ought to have
paid—some 20,000140 r 30,000/.—for a number of years
past ? It was really amusing to see the way in which
Mr. Lowe spoke of the title of the corporation to the
dues He said, "It is said they were purchased from the
Earl of Sef.on,'' as if it was not a fact well known. The
public generally, not• merely out of the town, but really
many in the town, did not fully understand the question,
and his object in rising was to suggest whether it would
not be very desirable with a view of bringing the subject
fully and fairly before the public, to have an early meet-
ing called even before the bill was printed.
Mr. Gardner agreed with the Mayor in thinking it
would be premature to call a public meeting at present.
He thought it desirable that the council should first be in
possession of the bill, because there was much harm done
by ridiculous and nonsensical speeches before the public
in that room prematurely. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Sufficient had been said by the gentlemen who had so well
tunderstood the subject, and sufficient would be recorded
o
satisiy the minds of the inhabitants of Liverpool for
the present.
Mr. Charles Turner thought that probably the object of
Mr. Picton and of the
council would be answered by