The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-05-08 00:00:00

NOLTIIEZN 77110.-LIVERTOOL, THIJESDAY, MAY 8, 180.

' say it was a bad sale, without proving the way in which it
; could be made better. (Hear, hear.) Theire dais ho Other
I way so far as he could see, of di,posing, in that neighbourhood,
I cf to large a pled° of land at one time, and in regard to that
point, Mr. Hudson was entirely wrong. At one time, indeed,
land was more valuable there than it was vow, and belieted,
; that if in former ears is had been offered for warehouse
property`; It have been worth £5 the square yard, but
certainly no capital i would now invest his money in any such
situation, and for such a purpose. (Hear, hear.) The council
were now, however, appropriating it at its full value, and
were establishing, in the very centre of the toivn, a most
important trade. (Hear, hear.) They were establishing
a most important trade there, and without bringing any
nuisance with it, which was a very important consideration,
and he had no doubt whatever, that if they refused to confirm
the present sales, years would elapse before they would again
have an (del for the laud. (Cries of " hear, hear," and" oh,
oh !") It was offered before for sale to the public, and they
could not obtain a single bid on it, (Cries of " Divide it.")
Now with regard to the value of the land. It was quite true
the land might improve, but it also might not, and gentlbnen
should know, that c' cry year the land remained idle, £4 or £5
tit the expiration of that time would not be as much for it as
2s 6d now. But he was not quite sure that the land would
increase in value, because it was a remarkable fact, that other
land near the central docks did not increase in value, but rather
decreased and he was, therefore, one who thought, that under
existing circumstances, this land was not likely for some years
to improve. With regard to the improvement of the street,
which had been referred to by Mr. Hodson, it would bo fully
effected ; and, in'conelusion, he should say that Mr. James
Holum was nota member of the finance committee, and that
even if he were, the other members would not be improperly
influenced by him. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Brancker wished that the may would explain to the
council the position of the matter, and also express his opinion
on the value of the property.
Mr. Hodson objected to the mayor doing so. It was for the
council to decide the matter, irrespective of him.
Mr. Ilornby held that the mayor had a perfect right to
express his opinion on the matter, and that when it was asked
he was bound to give it.
Mr. Alderman Parker concurred with Mr. Heruby.
Mr. W. Earle said that he had a great respect for the
mayor's opinion, and would be glad to hear it in the matter.
At the same time, he was not bound by the mayor's opinion.
He (Mr. Earle) owned souse property in the neighbourhood
in question, and he was sorry to hear, according to some gen-
tlemen, that it was worth only 50, the square yard. Ho
regretted it exceedingly, on account of his own purse.
(Laughter.) He had some land in Oil-street, not as gaol a
situation as this in question, and he rather thought that he
would get the square yard for it. He did not think that
they had made the railway company pay the full value for this
land. It was, no doubt, desirable, and of advantage to the
town, that they should encourage such a company, but still,
they wanted the land, and they should be made to pay the full
value for it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr James Holum then rose to speak in explanation, when
Mr. Thine suggested that the point raised by Mr. Hodson
as to the right of the mayor to speak on the subject, should be
first decided.

The Mayor replied that he would exercise his undoubted
privilege of giving an opinion in the matter, but in giving it
he would confine himself to the report of the surveyor. Every
gentleman conversant with largo blocks of land knew that it
they had a piece of laud in Great Howard-street, Or any other
valuable street, they could not simply on that fact put a value
on the land without any regard to its extent, its boundaries,
its approaches, and its evenness with other streets. He enter-
tained an opinion that Great Howard-street was exceedingly
valuable, and that that line of streets would increase rather
than diminish in value, as being the leading thoroughfare to
the extension of tile northern docks, but he differed with tire
opinion which he heard enunciated, that the front of Great
Howard-street would ever be occupied by commercial ware-
houses. If he recollected right, the land in question was, a
great portion of it, considerably more than a hundred yards in
depth, having no fair casement, no approach whatever to it,
and that the only way in which it could be occupied was by
sacrificing a considerable portion of it to make streets, and
that after they had made those approaches then they would get
into a blind street, so that they would have to return back the
the same way to get into Great Howard-street. A very great
body of land which would be thus shut out would be of little
value, being altogether out of the line of traffic. They were
told that by the arrangement a rent of £2,000 a year woul I
be secured, but that did not convey the whole truth, for they
were also to get nearly £lO,OOO worth of freehold land as a
substitue for the very land which they would have to sacrifice
in making, if they were required to do so, their own land ap-
proachable. It would be most difficult to sell the land in
plots, and for this reason, that they would have to commit
themselves at once to some plan, and he, therefore,
anticipated that a great many years should run before
they could dispose of it in that snowier. Mr. Hod-
son was right in saying that it was not usual for
the corporation to give leases in perpetuity, hut he
should recollect that they were now dealing with an incorporated
company, who could only hold land in fee, and that in such
cases the corporation always deviated from the usual course. If
gentlemen would look at the plan, they would see that it was
an extremely awkward plot of land, having no access, and that
the piece of land to which Mr. Earle alluded had a front both
to OD-street and Great Howard-street.
Mr. Earle observed that there were other pieces of land there
for which ho got 3:.
The Mayor replied that they were in small lots, which made
a material difference, and concluded by expressing a decided
opinion in favour of the recommendation of the committee.
Mr. James Heinle than rose—
M:. Gladstone objected to Mr. James Holme taking any
part in the debate, and the mayor busily ruled in favour of the
objection.
Air. Samuel Heinle said his name had been alluded to, and
he was not in the positio:r of his brother, not having a single
railway or gas share, or anything which cou'd prevent him from
speaking in tho council perfectly free and unfettered. He
had to express his surprise that gentlemen like Mr. Hodson, of
universal genius, who represented a mercantile community in
the council, and who pronounced an opinions upon the value of
property, and all other questions, should not, when they came to
find fault with the proceedings of the finance committee, did
not evince a little more courtesy of spirit, and give other
gentlemen credit for the sans() hearty desire to benefit the
corporate estate, and the sane sincerity, as they themselves
claimed. (Hear, hear.) He contended that Mr. Hodson was
guilty of throwing out imputations against gentlemen present.
He said that Mr. James Holme, who was a member of the
committee, had an interest in the direction of the company,
and that his brother, Mr. Samuel Holme, was the deputy-
chairman of the finance committee. Now, what did the council
understand from that ? He stood there in stern defiance of Mr.
Hodson and of public opinion, and declared that no act of his
life had ever been tainted by a job--that he gave his opinion in
the finance committee on that question, having heard the
statement of the surveyor—being intimate from his youth with
the very land in question, and having watched the progress of
events in all parts of the town, and having examined the very
elaborate statement of Mr. Weighttnan—and being canvinced
the cotnenittee were making a bargain most advantageous to
the corporation, and one which he individually was willing to
take the responsibility of advising the council to accept. The
mayor had anticipated, in his able explanation, very much of
what he (Mr. Holme) would necessarily have had to say. The
mayor had spoken of the extent of the land. He had spoken
of 3,060 yards of land which the council must necessarily have
taken out for streets, but which he (Mr. Holme) believed to be
realily less than they should require. The council would
recollect that the amount which they were to receive was a
serpetual sum of £2,087, together with tho value of 3,234
rards of land further up, which they were taking in exchange,
,and of about equal value. Tiro council would also bear in
mind that the amount they were receiving, taking it as was
usual in Manchester and other places,_ at twenty-five years'
purchase, was really equal to £3 2s Gti per square yard for the
land which they proposed to lease. As the subject had been
mooted, he saw no reason for the slightest concealment, and
he should therefore bring before their notice tire opinion of the
surveyor, of which he had procured a copy. Mr. Hoirna read
the following calculations made by the surveyor :
Should the land be disposed of in detail, it would have to be laid
out on some such plan as now submitted, affording the largest area for
sale, with due regard to access, and the estimated value may be
.alien as follows:-
8,850 yards fronting Great Howard-street, having a depth
of 30 yards, at £4 10s. per yard
12,678 yards, fronting Cross-street, the depth of each lot
being about 31 yards, .e 2 5s

Total
2,205 yards absorbed for streets.
19 1534 yards.
Deduct sewerage and paving streets.....

£48,100

£47,100

Nett proceeds...
If sold in lots within four years, with one year's credit,
the deferred payment would average about three years, and
the present value of such deferred vayment would be about.. £41,872
And the value of the reversion of the laud and of the build-
ings, which might be erected thereon, may be calcu ated not
to exceed

Total value in present money
If sold at £2 155., the amount would be .t 54,618 Its
The present value of which, due at the end of one year

. £52,600

would lie about,

-- -
This calculation, he contended, showed an advantage' to the
corporate estate of z£3,000 in accepting the offer of the Lan-
cashire and Yorkshire Railway Company. Gentlemen talked
of the increasing value of land. He was awaro that land at
Wapping was sold many years back for a much larger figure
than had been realised at public auction lately. There
were instances some years ago in which lan.l was sold at
Wapping for nearly double the value it would realise now.
When Mr. Hodson talked of the probability of land improving
as a reason for not leasing it in perpetuity, he forgot that that
might be said of every lot of land which they leased for
seventy-five years, because that too might equally improve in
value. Could the corporation deal with the land in any other
way than individuals ? Did parties givo a large price for
laud merely because it was public property ? Nothing of the
sort. The corporation were just in the same position as sellers,
as members would be individually, and the public would only
deal with them as they had an interest to do. It nas said
that the land would double itself in value within ten years.
If that really were the case in any other people, who possessed
quite as much discrimination as Mr. Hodson, they would
have come to the sale, and bought it—oven if would double
itself in twenty years. (Hear, hear.) He gave it as his
opinion that if, instead of .elliug land at seventy-five years,

they were to sell the, whole of the perpetual ground rent, as in
Manchester, it would be amazingly to the benefit of the corpo-
ration. (Cries of "Bear; hear," and "No, no.'') He, for
one, should be prepared; when a proposition was brought
forward for letting the land, riot by lease for seventy-five years,
but upon a perpetual chief rent, in the same manner as the
wise men of Manchester did, who knew how to manage the
business quite as well as the Fople of Liverpool, to give it his
support. lie did not know what was the explanation his
brother was going to give, beyond this, that he knew that the
survt yor suggested to him that the land would suit the
Lancashire and Yorkshire Company and he also knew, from a
conversation that he had With a director, that tire latter objected
to the purchase of the ground, for the company hul about
1,000 square yards of land down close to the north dock-,,
and they could do very well without the corporation land.
He was sure he did no more than any gentleman would do,
acting in a fraternal spirit, when ho said that if there
was any man in Liverpool clear from any imputation
of a job—if there were any man who always acted with
honourable feeling. He did not hesitate to say his brother
Vas that man, iiis brother who had been preVentect from giving
his own explanation, and to whom Mr. Hodson had thrown
out allusions, which a man of sensitive mind could not but feel
when applied to himself. (Hear, hear.) He would not
pursue that topic. He was perfectly satisfied that the arrange-
ment proposed was a good one, and that the public of Liver-
pool, as well as the corporation, would hereafter regret it, if
they did not now avail themselves of the offer, many years
ago, he was requested by one of the greatest ironmasters in the
world, to offer to the corporation a sum amounting, he
believed, to four guineas per square yard, for a very large lot
of land, The council of that day refused to confirm the pro•
eeedings of the finance committee, who recommended the
agreement. What was the result? The proposition was made that

the value of the land should be tested by public auctio
There was not a bid made at the public auction of half the
amount he was empowered to offer on behalf of the baronet,
and the consequence was, that the latter became so much dis-
gusted with the whole proceedings that he withdrew his offer.
The corporation kept the land for twelve or fourteen years, and,
to the best of his recollect'on, it was subsequently sold for
little more than half the sum which he was requested to offer.
He had no interest in the matter. His desire was, as well as
that of Mr. Hodson or anybody else, to do the best he could
for the corporate estate, under the responsibility which rested
upon him in common with all other members. If the council
rejected the proposition, they took a step they would subse-
quently regret, and he contended that a very much smaller sum
of money would accrue to the corperation if they cut the land
up and sold it in detail, than they would give if they accepted
the proposition new made by the Lancashire and Yorkshire
Railway Company. (Hear, hest). Tinder these circumstances;
Mr. Holme contended that the proceedings of the finance com-
mittee ought to be confirmed.
Mr. Shiel thought the observations which had been made
with regard to Mr. Hodson were quite uncalled for. It' there
were any fault in alluding to gentlemen placed under peculiar
circumstances, the fault was not in the council, but in the law
of the laud. The law did not seem to think that members
of that council were liable to error and to failings as well as
oiler men, and that they had not undergone any sort of
fermentation, which purified them when they cause into that
room, from the failures to which all other members of the
community were acknowledged to be liable. If gentlemen
were so exceedingly sensitive—and he admired them for being
so, and was very glad of it—they really ought to have taken
more pains to keep them out of the way of such observations.
When the municipal reform bill was introduced into the
House, a clause was contained in it that no corporation should
have the power of disposing of the property of a town for a
longer period than 31 years. The corporation of Liverpool, and
the people of Liverpool, made a remonstrance to the
House of Commons, stating that it had always been the prac-
tice here to dispose of property for a term of seventy-five
years, and that an alteration would be attended with very serious
inconvenience. On that application the bill was shaped as at
present. This proved that it was felt desirable to put a con-
siderable degree of restraint on those entrusted with the
management of corporate property. That restriction continued
up to the present time, and now the council was asked to act
in direct opposision to that law. He could not help saying
that the finance committee bad acted with a degree of want of
caution at which he was very much surprised. He believed
Mr. James Holme to be as incapable of doing a wrong thing
as any man in the room, himself included. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) But he would say, decidedly and boldlr, that
if he were a director of a railway company, he should not take
upon himself the office of negociator for the purchase of cm-
porato property, knowing that ho was liable to failings and
error as well as any other man. If the council
Caine to a conclusion to-day to agree to the
proposition, they must go to the Treasury to ask for permis-
sion; and he put it to the mljority of the council whether
they were yet possessed of sufficient information to justify
them in making such an application ? He thought Mr.
Hodson's proposal a just and reasonable one, and he could
not believe that a nvijority of the council would refuse to

delay a month in order that they might have an opportunity
of enquiring fully into the que,tlon before they made up
their minds for and against it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Holt said if the amendment were really for tha
purpose of consideration, and not in order to get rid of the
question, ho did not see much objection to it ; but if, after
the expiration of a month, the committee returned to the
council recommending the same course, he should support
them.

Mr. Robertson Gladstone asked what change had come
over the spirit of the dreams of the financo committee?

Flow was it that on a sudden they were roused from their

lethargic inactivity ? Was the curse an occasional glimpse
of the Newsharn House estate, which was becoming
ruinous, and was likely to return to its primitive state,
covered with brushwood, and with the beasts of the earth
concealing themselves under brambles, and the branches of
trees ? How was it that, at this particular juncture, the finance
committee suddenly discovered that they had a large plot of

id in Great Toward-street, nhich it w.as very desirable to

disposo of, and after quite a new fashion ? He confessed that
he was surprised when he received the summons-paper on
Saturday, and saw that the finance committee proposed to
recommend to the council that they should dispose of perhaps
the most valuable property, speaking presently and prospectively,
which they had within the whole limits of the borough—that

they proposed to dispose of it on terms wholly inaclevate,
having no analogy whatever to the value of property in the
immediate vicinity, and that, too, in a mode which was entirely
new, and at a time when all their property, when
all but their existence was placed iu jeopardy, when
they were on their trial in London. and the most
sanguine of them looking to the results of that

trial, must fear that they could not, and would
not, come out of it unscathed, was that a time
to propose a new mode of disposing of the real state
of the corporation? If there ever was an occasion when it was
absolutely necessary that they should bargain for money in
selling their property, that time was the present. Ho had
listened to what had fallen from the various speakers who
supported the recommendation, and without at all desiring to
impute anything to them, he could not bat think that their
better judgment had been warped on the present occasion. He
had heard the mayor's description of the property, and he
attached the value of that opinion to which he knew it was
entitled. But it was a matter upon which he thought every
man who reflected at all was perfectly competent to form an
opinion. (Hear, hear). Hero was a property of 19,000 square
yards in extent, in the very centre of Liverpool, or, if not in
the very centre, what would ho the centre ere long, and where,
he contended, there was really no back land at all ? What was
called hack laud was a considerable frontage of some 175 yards
to the canal, and a frontage to the railway. Was that to he called
back land ? They would each treat it as if it were his own.
It was within the first length of cartage from the Prince's-dock
—a situation of greater advantage than, perhaps, almost any
other, for the erection of warehouses for cotton and corn. He
spoke more plrticularly of corn—if that town should, as he
trusted it would, become the great depot for supplying the
various nations in that part of the globe. Did it not stand to
reason that such a situation should be a most advantageous
one? Various gentlemen had spoken of the value of land in
the immediate neighbourhood. He had been told by a member
of the council, who sat not far from me, and who spoke to him
very independently on that subject, as he did on every other,
that ten years ago he paid as much as £l2 a year for house
property nearly opposite the borough gaol. Another gentle-
man, also a member of the council, had a warehouse imme-
diately opposite the borough gaol, for which, about ten years

- •
ago, lie gave i per square yard. They had heard from Mr.
Earle, that in hie own locality, Oil-street, he rented his land at
3s per square yard. Now, were the finance committee
prepared to show that the value of
.property in that neighbour-
hood was something like what they had asked as a price from
the railway company ? Was any one prepared to show that £2
10s. was the price per square yard of land in Great Howard-
street? He understood that another member of the council
was building two warehouses, something like half a mile further
north than the site of the borough goal, and was payirig 2s. 6d.
per square yard as a consideration. That gentleman had
addressed the council in virtuous indignation on the subject, as
if the decision of the finance committee could not be questioned
for one moment. Again, a mile, and upwards of a mile distant
from that spot, the docks had been paying Ll the square yard
for land. He certainly could not help admiring the manner in
which the chairman of the finance committee had calculated
the value of the land. A declaration had been also made that
the property was put up to public auction, and that there was
no bidder. No wonder that there was no bidder for that or any
other property of the same kind, when money was
paying a price of from 8 to 10 and 12 per cent. Was it
reasonable to expect people to come forward and give a fair
value for land? But did he understand from the finance
committee that adopting, as they were bound to do, the
principle of public auction, the property was put up to a
private buyer at 2s 6d per square yard, per annum, in per-
petuity, and that they put it up to public auction on a
seventy five years' lease ? (Hear, hear.) If that was tho fact,
tie committee had failed to perform their duty to the corpora-
tion, for they had no right to treat on any new basis with pri-
vate individuals. Public property must be put up to public
auction on equal terms to all. He had no hesitation in stating,
that if the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company was fortunate
enough to become the possessors of that sire, their stock would
be honestly worth one half per cent more than it was the
preceding day. Consider the advantages they obtained. The
canal, the railway, the central situation, the immediate conti-
guity of the docks. What also would they have ? Everything
was centered in that very spot. Looking at the extraordinary