The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-12-21 00:00:00

magisterial business in the magistrates rooom in that build-
ing. The six magistrates named, but four of whom only
qualified, were not sufficient to meet from day to day, or
from week to week, to perform the necessary duties in this
place; and as it would be too onerous a duty for four to
perform, the committee waited on other magistrates, and
solicited their attendance to assist the new magistrates. He
(Mr. Johnson) was happy to say they had now secured pro-
mises from a sufficient number of magistrates to attend here,
as would enable them to carry on a portion of their busi-
ness with satisfaction to the public, to such an extent as
would enable them to close the house in St. Paul's-square.
(Hear, hear.) He need not, before the board, dilate on the
advantages which the ratepayers of Liverpool would derive
from the closing of that house.. The very circumstance of
paupers going to that place, receiving a pass, and in addi-
tion a small sum of money to enable them to go to Ireland,
and would in itself appear preposterous in the present day,
and could only be compared to a system which used to pre-
vail in Lancashire, when Liverpool, Manchester, and the
other large towns had to go to Lancaster for justice, instead
of having the assizes in those towns, and justice brought to
their own doors. (Hear, hear.) In a local point of view,
and in a small way, the cases were precisely analagous ; but
according to the opportunity which this board received the
case was still worse. It was manifest to every body that a
pauper going to Rigby-street could have no test ap-
plied to him by which any body could know whether he
was an object fit to receive assistance or not. The
The magistrates were obliged to give an order and pass
them on such documentary and other evidence as was offered.
But when paupers came to that house they would see the
advantage in many cases, and they would make those
paupers do a certain amount of work at the mills before
they were passed to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He should
not enlarge on this subject, but solicit permission of the
board to move a resolution to the effect that the committee,
or the vestry clerk, have power to give the proper and due
notice previous to the closing of the house in St. Paul's-
square, to enable them as soon as possible entirely to close
that establishment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DENTON seconded the motion with great pleasure.
He believed there must have been some misunderstanding
between the vestry and the magistrates.
Mr. BRADLEY None whatever.

Mr. DENTON understood the magistrates considered they
were to come up here and hear the whole of the summons
cases for unpaid rates; and not for to pass paupers.
Mr. BRADLEY said it was very indiscreet to make those
comments about the magistrates.
Mr. DENTON begged to second the motion.
Mr. Moss was delighted at what had been stated ; was he
to understand that the old magistrates were willing to co-
operate with the new ones to carry on the business of the
parish ?
Mr. JOHNSON said in every case where they made appli-
cation to the old magistrates they had acceded to their
request. They had not met with one refusal ; but they had
only applied to a limited number, just sufficient for this one
duty.
Mr. Moss thought that quite satisfactory.
Mr. SAVAGE asked, was it absolutely necessary that two
magistrates should attend on every occasion upon which
paupers were sent to Ireland ?
Mr. HART : Yes. •

Mr. SAVAGE thought if it were possible to alter the law
it would be better, for he was satisfied they would not get
two magistrates to attend every day.
Mr. JOHNSON : They are not wanting every day,
The CHAIRMAN : When the inconvenience is found, then
perhaps, will be the time to move.
The resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. CLARKE then gave notice that at the next meeting of
the vestry he would move the appointment of a legal ad-
viser for parish affairs.

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

From the proceedings of this committee, it appeared that
the band-master had been severely reprimanded for his
recent misconduct, and informed that a repetition of the
offence would be visited with dismissal.

Mr. Moss inquired whether one part of the charge against
him was true—whether he was really guilty of taking child-
ren into a public-house, and giving them drink ?
Mr. GA.RDNER : He was not.
Mr. Moss said the industrial schools' committee had
before recommended his dismissal on this very ground.
Mr. GARDNER. said the children were not taken into the
public-house by the band-master, neither had he any know-
ledge of their having taken drink.
Mr. HUGHES said the boys came in, and he might have
asked them to have a glass of ale. Hef was intoxicated at
the time. The proceedings were then confirmed.
The following letter was read from Mr. Brown, inspector
of schools :

Sir,—" I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of
the 6th instant, enclosing a resolution passed by the select ves-
try of the same date. 1 apprehend that the resolution in its
present form will not be sanctioned by the Lords of the Com-
mittee of Council on Education, and 1 have to request,
therefore, that the Select Vestry will reconsider the question.
I submit that the proposed pupil-teachers who are mere chil-
dren, ,cannot be recognised as assistant masters and mis-
tresses, and that the resolution practically amounts to
nothing, as it reserves to the guardians an indefinite power
of dismissal, without the concurrence or knowledge of their
lordships. I beg leave to remind the Board that the
salaries of all the teachers, both at Kirkdale and at the
Liverpool workhouse, are paid by the Committee of Council on
Education—that the head master and head schoolmistress,
at Kirkdale, are paid an additional stipend for the instruc-
tion of apprentices, and that the apprentices themselves
will also become entitled to a certain sum on the satisfactory
completion of their apprenticeship. In consideration of these
advantages, it appears to me but just and reasonable that the
guardians should not reserve to themselves the power of dis-
missing apprentices without first communicating to their lord-
ships the charge against the apprentices, and obtaining their
assent to such dismissal. It is not probable that any difference
of opinion would arise between their lordships and the guar-
dians, as to the propriety of dismissing an apprentice for mis-
conduct, but I think that certain conditions must be attached
to the administration of a public grant for educational purposes,
and that no necessity has arisen for varying the terms of a
resolution approved by the practice of several years. I hope,
therefore, that the select vestry will pass a resolution either
identical with, or not materially different from, that originally
forwarded, and I shall be glad to be acquainted with the
decision of the board as soon as possible.—l have the honour
to be, sir, your obedient servant, T. B. BROWN.
Southport, Dec. 9, 1853.
Mr. HART read the following reply to Mr. Brown's
letter, which he had prepared at the request of the
committee :

Liverpool, 20th December, 1853.

•
Sir,—l am directed by the select vestry •of this parish to
acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 9th instant, in
which, with reference to their resolution of the 6th instant,
appointing several of the children at the industrial schools as
assistants to the schoolmaster and schoolmistress respectively,
you request that the matter may be re-considered.
Your objection to the resolution in question appears to be
twofold, first, " That the proposed pupil teachers, who are mere
children, cannot be recognised as assistant masters and mis-
tresses;" and second, " That the resolution practically
amounts to nothing, as it reserves to the guardians an indefinite
power of dismissal, without the concurrence or knowledge of
their lordships."

I am, in the first place, to inform you, that the terms," assis-
tant masters" and " assistant mistresses," to which you take ob-
jection, were adopted by the Select Vestry at the instance of the
Poor Law Board themselves. With a resolution of the vestry
before :them, precisely the same as that which was approved,
you say, by the practice of several years, you now propose
for adoption; that board, nevertheless, suggested, in a letter
addressed to the Select Vestry, on the 6th December, 1851,
that the words " assistant masters" and "assistant mistresses"
shOuld be used in preference to the words " pupil teachers."
So that, while you allege that the children cannot be recog-
nised as assistant masters, &c., they are proposed to be so
recognised by the power especially privileged by the legislature
to do so. And with regard to the second portion of the reso-
lution to which you call attention, that also emanated from the
Poor Law Board. In - their communication before referred
to, they suggested the very words which have been adopted by
the vestry on the present occasion, viz., " This board reserves
to itself the right to dismiss them (the assistants) upon the
commission of any offence against the rules which it may lay
down for their conduct, or any sufficient or well founded com-
plaint from the schoolmaster or mistress of their negligence or
inaptitude as such assistants."

The Select Vestry do not, therefore, deem it expedient or
proper that, with regard to dismissal for misconduct, the
" pupil teachers" should he upon a different footing from the
assistants of the higher grade; nor do they think it fitting
that a board of guardians should be placed in such a position
towards these junior assistants as to be incapable of dismissing
them, however deservedly, without the concurrence of their
lordships.--I have the honour to be, sir, your obedient
servant, CHARLES BART.

T. B. Browne, Esq.
Mr. DENTON asked whether it was the intention of the
vestry to take any part in the movement now goine forward
throughout the united kingdom ? He believed a great
number of towns were meeting to endeavour to dislodge the
board in London.

The CHAIRMAN thought that had nothing to do with the
question before the board.
Mr. DENTON was strongly opposed to centralisation.
The CHAIRMAN : This has nothing to do with the
question.
Mr. DENTON wanted to know were they to sit there like
a set of automatons (laughter), subject to gentlemen in
London who knew nothing of the minutiae of their business.
It was a perfect farce for them to be in that position.
The CHAIRMAN remarked that subject might be brought
before the board by a notice ; but he did not think it was
connected with the schools.

Mr. DENTON said he had always been.met by the vestry
clerk who said they could not legally employ the monies of
the parish for this purpose.
The CHAIRMAN : You can move that it be taken into con-
sideration at a future meeting.
Mr. DENTON then gave notice that he would call a special
meeting of the vestry on the subject.
_Mr. HUGHES moved that Mr. Hart's letter be adopted by
the board. It met the whole case in a perfectly clear
manner.

Mr, WHITBY seconded the motion, which waa agreed to,