The Express.
London, England, 1850-02-06 00:00:00

meat hair ergemlefellee of considering whether that clause
ought awl ashengstalall.me Lew appointee. at would take place
in the mookisa. Da the hon. goodness had imputed
unfairness In the Weed= of the committee. The hon. gen-
tleman said that that committee was composed of a majors y
of gentlemen favourable to the commission, but bow was
that consistent with the fact which the hon. gentleman ad-
vanced as the ground for his present proceeding, that they
agreed to a recommendation adverse to the commission as at
pretest constituted ? And when he referred to the chairman
of the committee as having been the brother of a prelate, the
hon. gentleman omitted to state that in the first year in
which the committee was appointed the chairman aas not
his hon. friend the member for Melton (Mr. E. Denison),
but the noble lord the member for Tonnes (Lord Seymour).
Mr. HORSMAN—What I said wee, that the chairman
who drew up the report was the hon. member for Melton,
the brother of a prelate.
Sir G. ORSY—In that the hoe. gentleman was undoubt-
edly correct, and he (Sir G. Grey) had misunderstood him.
Bat he must altogether repudiate the motive that in piecing
the boo. member for Halton in the chair of that committee,
there was any intention to prejudice the inquiry, cr that the
report, though certainly drawn up by that non. gentleman,
did cot express the unanimous opinion of the cemnsitee,
Adopted otter full inquiry and full discussion. (Hear, hear.)
Then the hon. gentleman said the committee recommended
the appointment of a separate and distinct board, to consist
of three paid commissioners, to whom were to be refined all
questions of property that came land, r the cognisance of the
E-ole,tasticel Commission. That ass not his (Sir G. Grey's)
understanding of that recommendatior. (Haar, hear.)
ee hat the committee r commended, a]ter full consideration
of •he evident, was, not the breaking up of the commie
sew, but • change in the competition ot the commission, and
that af me tureber aillif/PJA of the du'y should take place
in order that the eceleeriastical liminess should be sopereted
17001 the management of the propert) ;and while tome larger
bo.iy, competing the present commitsion, might he retained
the c niiateratien of great principles and important miestions
amerce d with the church and its itoverument,te the smaller
body (the estates committee) should dee Ave all matters rat
teeing to the manrgement of the property of the ceramittion.
(Cho to ) Teat three paid commissioners should be tip.
pointed—two to be no-recited by the crown end the other
Mr the Archbishop rat Canterbury—who elven i consider all
questions of proeerty, ar d une of whom %Lamle' attend the
quertim of the g 1 heart when such questions were
itie u,ed. The recommen ‘ation was not to supersede the
conemi -ion, bet obtain better manse, mete! of the levees;
end the reportsof such a committee- riming infers the commis•
shiner. with that weight white attached to the nommen.
eatiou of men who had given their undivided attention to
the subject would have their due weight. (Hear, heir
lie di i nit wish, on the present occasion, to go into the
qu. 'Oen whether there should be three or two rid e en-
nideentere, ton be would not anticipate a du-msion, which
entail not be properly rat, red upon until the :till was biters
them; but when the measure should be properly under din
'maim, whatever its provisions neght be, it would be open
tor the hen eentleman to take the sense of the house either
evilest its prineieln or aey of its details. (Hear, hear ) He
:carcely kiiew weather he was justified in offering another
word on a matter personal to hinmelf—(e-ar, bear)—and
really be was ularet ashamed to alliele to a wetter
which war rent property before the house, though referring
in some measure to the subject under CIISCUV6OII—he spok-
ed a lelter which the hon. gentleman had addressed to his
own constituents, in which ho had thought proper to make
a ens ohs, rvetions in regard to his conduct in this matter.
He was glad, however, that the hen. gentleman had not
thought it tie:me ry to coy in the house whet he had con-
descended to state in that letter, in which he had charged
him (Sir G. Glee) with disingenuousnesi, anal wine of
honour, end deception. An the hon. gentleman had not
repeated the charge in his (Sir G. Grey's) pretence, he
thiauld not think it neee•stry to reply to it. (Hear.) He
C'Alla not well answer what had only appeerrd in a n :we
paper, for he was not 'Killing to be drawn into a newspaper!
controversy. All be would- say wan, that every one wh a
read that letter must know that the hon. gentleman had
drawn largely on his own imagination in clementine scenes
which never took place in that nous*, in pestieg any measure
pro forma through committee. (Hear )
Mr. HUME thought the theta bon. gentlemen had
coals cd his reply to mere trifling, whie4 was cot worth
noticing, pawing over altogether twee abuses which were
charged. and ought long since to have tarn redressed.
(Hear, hew.) No less a sum than 123,0001. had been
applied by 'his commission to the benefit of the bishops,
and only 93,0701. for the use of the poor clergy and the
magmentetint of small livings; though it had been shown
is that house teat there were 20,000 werkirg curates
whose incomes were only 80s, a year each. (Hear, hoer.)
They had abolished sinecures in the army and the navy,
why showed they be permitted in the church—why should
not the fonds set Apart for religious 'aerates he applied to
thew purposes, cud not to the enrichiee of bishops end cleri-
cal emenoiset ?
Mr. AGLIONBY promised some valuable information to
the hence whenever the bill should be brought down for die- I
cusiion. He defended his hon. colleague (Mr. lioremen),
who hod been accused of untairne se by S.r O. Grey, and dt -
pre ee tea an ley persoaalities and harsh mitt uctien light -
worded phrases.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY slid he was hog semi cf opinion
that the composition of the commission was dangerous, fur
the facts which transpired during the filet sittings of the
committee ahem', ently proved that unless some steps were
taken very serious mischiefs would arise. The fact that the
secretary was closely and largely c nnectel with railways.
and that he was also connected by family with solicitors had ]
tome out clearly, proving that it was possible for mischief te
follow from a mencaneciou entrusted with so Liege a mats of
property, and that it was the bounden duty of use he use to
, place its general management in a safe position. (Ilea.)
Sir ft INGLI S was not there to defend the Bcclesiutical
Commission. Ever since its institution he had opposed it.
He had alerayslrevarded it at a great viteation of the rights
vested in the rectors and pastors of parishes, not by the
liberality of the state, but by the liberality of private
indivi-
duals, and he apprehended it would be difficult to find
any property better guareete-a than thee possessed by those
holding ecclesiastic il prehrmeats. Bee he should be
ashamed of himself if he set there, and heard such language
as the hon. member (Mr. linesman) had addressed to the
house, believing it to be utterly unsubstantiated in feet, am'.
did not ri-e to give it an indignant denial. The property
of
the church was es much its own pie piety as the property ot
any individual or corporation, and its duties to the poor
were similar to these which each individual memoir
of society owed to the distressed. The hon.
member alleged that the ecclesiastical commission had
squandered and exhausted the funds entrusted to it. (Hoer,
hear, trom Mr. Horeman.) The hon. member repeated the
allegation, but he (Sir It. Inglis) denied it emphatically
The treasures of the poor bad not been entrusted to their
hands, and therefore they could not have exhausted them
Then, with a figure of speech, the hon. member endeavoured
to leave the hoes: under the impression that the bishops were
ready to put their hands into other people's pockets, and not
into their own. The fact, however, was, that in order to
institute the bishopric of Manchester and whether that was •
great or • small boon, it had at least been asked for by the
great body ot Manchester churchmen, the Archbishop
of Canterbury, now deceased, the Bishop of Locdon,
happily still living, and the late Archbishop of York coc-
tributed sums which in the aggregate amounted to
2,8001. a year. lie asked his right non. friend the member
for the University of Cambridge, whether such an act
as this had taken place ? and, if it did, then tee bisho-s were
not men deserving the sneer with which their conduct had
been treated. (Hear.) Tne boo. member had drawn a
powerful contrast between • primitive bishop and a bishop
of the present generation. Perhaps he would draw an
equally powerful one between the lite of a primitive layntaa
and • modern one, for the primitive Chretiaes had set us an
example which it would be well for us to follow. In the
altered constitution of society, however, there were diffe-
rent ranks end different duties; and he defied t!..0 hon.
member to produce • simile year in the history of
England since the country had enjoyed a constitution, in
which the bishops had not held a prominent place is the
first estate of the realm, and in which they had not property
of their own that they enjoyed with as muck freedom and
security as any layman.
Mr. E. DENISON sail that as he bad moved the appoint-
ment of the committee, and as the committee had done him
the honour to request that he would draw up the report, he
had, perhaps, fallen abort in his duty in not laying the
whole ease before the house on a prior occasion. It was one
of great difficulty, magnitude, and importance. The go-
vernment, ,1
however, hod agreed to take the matter
into their own hands, and he believed that he ]
should best accomplish the object in view by, Laying
I
the conduct of the measure through the house to their proper
guidance. Two questions had been addressed to him in the
course of the debate by the hen. member for Cockermouth
(Mr. Homan) These were—whether there had not been a
sort of bargain that the motion for a committee should be
introduced without a discussion, and whether the names of
the committee were submitted for the approval of the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury. The right hon. baronet had already'
captained the nature of the bargain, as it wee called. The
only banyan he (Mr. Denison) remembered about it war
this—that he said at the time if the house would grant him
the committee on the day named for bringing en his motion
for their appointment, he would not occupy public time b
going into the merits of the case. He should have answered
the second question with a most positive contradiction, if the I
hon. member for Cockermouth had not come to him and
asked if he did not recollect something having been
said in the lobby of the house about refer.
ring the names of the committee to the archbishop. Ile
(Mr. Denison) would not say positively that nothing of the
kind had taken place, but to the best of his recollection
nothing of the kind had ever owurred. With these otwerva-
a necessarily forced from him by inquiries made on both
aides Otte house, he begged to conclude, trusting from what
had occurred that the hon. member for Cockormouth would
not think it necessary to press hie motion to a division.
Mr. 11. MANGLES remarked that his hon. friend having
done him the honour to consult him from time to time as to
the mode by which he could best promote the object he had
most sincerely at heart, he AIWA be allowed to say that in
one must essential respect his hon. friend had been entirely
misunderstood. lie meant with respect to the con-
stitution of the committee. Now he understood his
honourable friend not to speak at all disparag-
ingly of that committee, but he spoke highly of
It and argued a fortiori in support of its secommendatlons.
His hen. friend said here was a committee composed of
sninieters of state, with a chairman who was himself the
brother of • noble prelate, and he said if these hon. and
right hon. gentlemen had any prejudice, they must be said
to have a leaning towards the commission. He said the
committee had reported that it was absolutely necessary
that three lay commissioners should be added to the Emir-
statical Commission, on whom the labour and respoesibility
should mainly fall. His hon. friend, the member for the
University of Oxford, had dealt out hard measure to his hon.