The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-03-26 00:00:00

THE ANNUAL GENERAL VESTRY,

The annual general vestry of the parishioners of Liver-
POOl was held in the Session-house, Chapel-street, at
twelve o'clock, yesterday. A formal meeting in compli-
ance with the act of Parliament took place in the parish
ntlrell
of St. Nicholas', in the first instance, and an
'•'4.ioUrnment was then moved and carried to the:Sessions_
11(,)118°. A. very large number of parishioners was in
attendance The chair was taken by the Rev. Rector
CaniPbell. Among the gentlemen present were, Messrs.
eSilaw and Woodruff, churchwardens ; Messrs. George
'elaxviell, John Gladstone, jun. ; Rev. Mr. Denny ; J. R.
deffery, _
Kitchen ; Aldermen Dover, Carne, Jackson,
Denton, Fernihough, E. Harvey, and Satchell ; Mr.
Raise,
t,,_t ; Aldermen S. Holme, Jones, Rawle, Owen, Wm.
13"; Johnson, Mellor, Lowe, Messrs. Knight, Bell,
taller, and many other gentlemen.
bee(rilae,C_hairraan announced the fact that the meeting had
acre held Pro forma in St. Nicholas' Church, and
i limed to that building.
ee,,lneetin •
the Hart, Vestry-clerk, then read the requisition calling
I,pretop;eeasrof the accounts of the churchwardens for the
were then distributed through the meeting.
tee, e accouuts were of a very minute and detailed c, arac
er, but may be thus summat ied. The amount expended
, orneSt. Peter's Church was 1:624 15s sd; on St. Nicholas'
1108 h £B3O 9s Paul's, .21519 s 2d; St. John s,
7,
44e 9d; St. Matthias's, .ell 53 Miscellaneous
„rees ,including .e 9 16 9d principally incurred .
ohn
ac eral th late Archdeacon Brooks, .w 303 1. 1
e°l4ll °f Walto Cemetery, .41738 6s 7d; the tOtal
expenditure for then year was £4133 Ils 3d. The amounts
rze c(lae .
tds 4d re :___On
2 4d account of the parochial rates,
le, ee voluntary rates, -,507 15s; cemetery rates,
. 2°7-
''''• In 11- 44653 16s Id. Balance to the
'Ten of the Parish,a, on the 25th of March, 1856,
Res2l 4s 10d.
a
Tile
Cnairruan asked if it were necessary to have the
ceounts read.
read.,Carne thought it would be more strictly legal to
eir.'"ie„arnounts of. each heading.
detea•"oodruff said every parishionor had a right to
tee nd that they should be read. The churchwardens
money that, in common honesty, those who paid the
Iley had .
We . a right to know how it was
.expended. They
mar desirous of conducting themselves in that business
eeer like business men; and they shrank from nt)
ivocillidrY,_. He hoped that the whole of the proceedingsc
felitis;ue,
egOne through with perfect harmony, and to
.h felt sat of every parishioner who had any enquiry
,1114'?• (Loud cheers.) hattee leading portions of the accounts were accordingly
ell'. Woodruff said: Mr. Chairman, in moving that this
teitetting approve of the accounts which have been s
We, ed to it I shall venture upon a few observations. It
1,1. be t° ,
presente in the recollection of many of the gentlemen
te
aph, . at upon the last Easter Tuesday, the vestry
terelltee me
one of their churchwardens, unsolicited on
at:, Jan, unexpected, and certainly without any andx
there eper7.°f Mine, to hold the office. In fact, if' I had ha
.r
WirenreunitY, I should not have accepted it. But,
that
detL4„4l not eonseientiously refrain from attending to
..
lee) '" and therefore, to the best of my ability, with such
eearreation as I !have had during the year, I have
ietee!vonred, with the assistance of my colleague, to go
bite "aricma matters with a full consideration of the
to eleertta Of all connected with the parish. And although_
veree,-"e.. oxtent probably, ~we may not have pleased
tile e uOy, ..._
we hope that we have endeavoured to place
foodrochial arrangements of the parish upon a betterau
to eiv!, to some extent, than those who preceded us,
the d
ivil,,rnore general satisfaction to the great bulk ofwe
iln,'Lants. (Hear, hear, and applause.) Pro opportunity, as %Iry aad, to some extent, a little better opportunity, k
for
ePredecessors had cleared away some ground-wor
hut, ItreerYing on better arrangements than they had done,
ofthe-e'vvever, I think, sir, on comparing the expenditure
thEtt 'Pariah for this year, any reasonable man will admit
dielee• 4 considerable improvement has taken place, and
still the next year or two we hope for greater progress
the es° tbat very Soon those obnoxious matters which are
WeEteeasfon of so much litigation, and annoyance at the
ir vestries, may subside altogether. (Hear, hear.) le cerae'e found it necessary during our year of office,to
With
...o.,nsiderable expenditure in procuring legal advice
seirerterence acts of parliament. We evade. ,the
have °,l legal Lassstance, and placed ourselves in the
have-:' men, whom we believed the community would
Pecteentidence in, and whose. judmment would be res-
and b.
.Our first impression was, to see
.what was legal
Ger eetend,lng upon us among the matters. which came before
sheemeanleration and then what it was reasonable
.that we
fe eeee carry out The amount which is charged in re-
elerptieee to the churches, especially the stipends. of the
See." You are all awaz e is by special acts of parliament,
some to Son,hough the question of church-rates may have been,
does —e extent, not approved of for some years past, that
te_s hot at all affect
•the question of stipends to the rec-
to 7 and the clergy. Tnese are fixed by special acts
parliamen, and the parishoners are in
eer, and legally, bound to provide the monies. We had
grepsesdb,during our y.ear. of office to have. made such pro-
thet ,e` the in as to have laid the whole of
auditor,cnarge upon the poor's rate, subject to the poor law.
eie but 'we have done sufficient to decide the p To et,!l.,'_,sand have made a portion of them, a charge upon
Pos'eure . rate, h a short time will. come before
utuhlee,
let4,lsav auditor; and if the principle is a so!in
ve up°, " we have laid down, and which we hope to impro
enureB4oll, then the other charges, will be dealt with upon the
Princile. But, sir, in the meantime, as these
towligeMents have been made many years ago by. the
YeeeseYinva. canuot get rid of with honour
desirablethe course
Voivia acts of parliarneut now su intricate and
im.
PoSsiefesnell very difficult considerations and almost m-
suggesteand impracticable to carry out—it has
.been
that th verb very early period by our legal advisers.
all side! best way would be for the leading men of
for a . to take the matter into consideration and seek
ille4oB nevi' bill from parliament, which should be the
the pan!. consolidating all the legal engagements which
nPon 11811: is bound to meet, and to place them all
It. thatTie Proper footing. (Cries of hear, hear.)
rtieeser were done it would in a great
!Nit, ° render unnecessary the annual contests ill-
We beg! and excitement which arise out of them ; and
by seeeleve the parishioners would be very much. benefitted
clet the a c.ourse. You are aware, sir, that in carrying.t
call ter folleY of the churchwardens, we had a right to
churehie egad advice. Fo a number of years past eac
second "arden has dune sot and even if I only take the
Year axteconsideration of the cost, if each churchwarden,.
ilhe think: Year, has a right to call for au y legal assistance
'nallds " Pro Per, and which may amount to scores of
leis or hundreds of pounds, would it not be better, as a_
hilt artne,,tieY affair, to -go to parliament for a new bill ?
;411, hui. -ot yet quite prepared to.bring forward such a
ii`n the,,,lve shall hereafter submit it in a definite form.
"nbrait tenure,—e I beg to move that the accounts now
kr. IV adopted. (Hear, hear.)
taade eelvv, expressed his full approval of the observations tieeoed.e 'Ur* Woodruff, and said he had much pleasure in
kr, ltig the Motion.
(c. • I-41QQ bane asked why the accounts of St. Martin's
tedi?d been omitted from the statement now sub-
ben 0 Co the vestry ? It was the first time since it had.
au acel())ened that the churchwardens had failed to give
kr. ant ,that
receipts and'expeaditure.
right•twoodruff replied that Mr. Carrie had a perfect
WeieCtl question the churchwardens upon the accounts ta., iecaeY submitted to the vestry, but he had no right
"ovre;Af, as to matters that were not on the paper.
Milisei, ne would give Mr. Carne an explanation of the
ask tie notwithstanding that he was not entitled to
mu equestion.
questiouarne:
beta I should like to know if it is a proper
Presseen.• use I would not wish it to go forth that I
Tha-,aktl.unproper question.
that crialrman : As you ask me my opinion, I quest
.say
I do eetnthnot think you have a right to put the qion.
and cries ninik You have anything to do with it. (Laughter
kr. lir-„,,","` his clock is stopped.")
questions "ntruff said that the fees of the cemetery in
‘uteretol "recharged on the poor rates, and should not
Ir.
~,,ea question at that meeting.
epee_ e,aree moved that the accounts be not passed, in
to e'egilence of the omission, and that they be referred
char Committee of investigation. He did not see why the
ee,_elivvardens should now refuse to give the account,
then they expressed such readiness to submit even what
eir'y were not called upon to submit to the vestry. Mr.
04"°c1, ruff made an exceedingly offensive speech, reflecting
age le then churchwardens, and as he (Mr. Carrie) had
talt then the opportunity of answering it, he would now
~,e tlae opportunity of saying a few words in reply.
It ~.11.e Chairman rose to order, and observed that it was
pe;l„‘Y that the vestry should have its time occupied with
sorpeaal disputes. (Hear, hear.) He should be very
cat4to put down any gentleman when
at
the
eussatmo
eviLdie-
it w.,t_firnself from an unjust charge;.
should necessary that at such meetings nothing irrelevant
hotO be brought forward, and still more necessary. that
dated ing in the shape of personal disputes should be intro-
A,. (Hear, hear.)
o.eez, 9arne : I presume I am at liberty to move that thea
corn.dYs be not passed, and that they be referred to
Tteittee for investigation.
le t;Ile Chairman : Yes, as Mr. Woodruff has put hifnself
iu th:t Position; otherwise, I do not see how it would be
kr. Pan,wer of this vestry, to refuse passing the accounts.
I‘4._ er..ectiaght seconded the motion.
Meet J. lc. Jeffery said that, if he understood the amend-
ehereeeecre
e e eetlY, it had been made in Fonsequence of the -PProe i-r`lens having submitted their accounts for the
the a. of the vestry. He was unwilling to travel out of
Woetrediate record or subject before them, and he
eareyineadeavour not to do so; but he could not avoid
i,euneeigatnetla back to that time twelvemonth, when., the
..‘,_hat in the vv, bet now moved the amendment, admitted
eiere were !nen statement of accounts before the
.vestry,
vetry "7e illegal items of expenditure, and denied the
Of fat con
power of investigating them. (Hear, hear.)
Public conduct, which was dishonourable in them as
Runt, officers, Mr Carne arid his colleague had been
the Y'
and still he how made the honourable conduct of
theee'sent churchwardens the ground of his objection to
Was arleenntlts. In the accounts submitted to them, there
thitee expenditure on account of St. John's, Se Mat-
Ite6Or:N.eshinenhd, St. P'aul' amounting altogether to. about
ether e it
(Mr. Jeffery) would object 0,
4 thPetrs°ll4llYB,, he
pre_ a he found there were certain reasons why
rii.chvvardnt circurnstanees it was desirable that the
degillatel heshould pay it. These churches were
stay the
boaY.of
.conimissioners, all questions being
eveY their ellacai ntlarrit
vet'
which they Y, and the churchwardens had to
head- Thera to
other accounts, how-
refused to pay, because the expense

bad been incurred, not by :themselves, but by their pre
decessors—

Mr. Came : Now, I ask is this fair ? (Loud cries of
" order, order," and " sit down.") Is it fair to allow me
to be attacked in this way when you would not permit
me to enter into matters in regard to Mr. Woodruff ?
The Chairman : I should be extremely glad if Mr.
Jeffrey would let Mr. Came alone. (Laughter.)
Mr. Jeffrey replied that he only dealt with Mr. Came
in his public capacity, and he would now show the
difference in the expenditure under the management of
the present churchwardens as contrasted with that of
their predecessors. In one item he found that the present
' churchwardens spent less than 481, as against 1431 under
the previous management, and in another item only 21/
as against 1201. (Hear, hear.) He stood there as an old
and experienced citizen, and he would say that the
accounts did immortal honour to the churchwardens, who
deserved the support of every ratepayer, and he hoped
that when they presented themselves for re-election the
ratepayers would show their appreciation of their good
deeds by again returning them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman Dover said that he had no anticipation
of the halcyon days a peace which Mr. Woodruff would
seem to prognosticate. He knew something of the temper
of Liverpool, and he knew that if the question of church
rates were settled to-morrow, they still would have dis-
putes, and wrangles and rows. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He would beg, then, the vestry would not be led away
with the delusive hopes which Mr. Woodruff held out
that peace would be restored, and universal harmony
prevail, if a certain act of parliament were obtained. But
before proceeding to that consideration, lie would make a
few remarks on the accounts presented to them. There
was one item among them which he thought unnecessary
—he alluded to the expense of draping the churches in
black on the death of the archdeacon. They all resp cted
that venerable man (hear, hear), but if Mr. Woodruff had
made inquiries, he would have found that mourning for
the churches had been provided about three years since,
and that it could have been made available
on the recent occasion. With regard to the com-
pliments paid by Mr. Jeffery to Mr. Woodruff.
he (Mr.'Dover) was not quite sure that he was so fully
deserving of them as it was sought to show.
The Chairman : Will you be so good as not to mention
names, and to call the gentlemen the late, or the present
churchwardens, as the case may be. Ido not see why any .
discredit should be cast on Mr. Carne, that should not
equally fall on Mr. Hutchison; nor do I see why in any
credit given to Mr. Woodruff, Mr. Shaw should not share.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Jeffery continued : In looking over the accounts, he
found that something like £4,600 had been collected, while
in the dark days of the church rate, the largest amount
that had ever been collected, had only reached £6.000, and
what did they do for that ? They laid out £l,OOO for•the
repair of St. Peter's church, which was literally falling to
pieces (laughter) ; and they repaired and beautified St.
Nicholas's church. He did not find that the present
churchwardens had been doing anything of that kind, and
though they had received 4,600/,lit had all dwindled away
in some form or the other. He did not think it
was fair for the present churchwardens to propose
such an act of Parliament as that suggested. The fact
was that they had gone into office declaring that there
should be no church rate, and yet they found that the
parishioners, under some other name, had been paying
lad in the pound towards the churches. (Hear, hear.)
The churchwardens now found themselves in a dilemma,
for they had learued to see that no matter what the name
of the contribution might be, they would still have to ask
the parishoners of Liverpool to pay towards the expenses
of the churches. If they had gone into office, not know-
ing that such would be the case, they ought to have
known it ; and if they had known it, it was not honest in
them to have accepted the office, and to have said that
they would not have such a rate. (Hear, hear.) There
was no doubt whatever that they were bound by law, as
well as by honour, to make those payments, and the pre-
sent churchwardens now found that they could not get on
without a church rate, in some form or other. The old
churchwardens had laid the church rate because they
knew they were fairly and legally bonnd to pay
the charges, and as they had had the bold-
ness to openly lay the rate for that purpose
he thought they were more deserving the thanks
of Mr. Jeffrey than those who covertly asked for the same
rate though under another name. (Laughter, and hear,
hear.) Be hoped that in any bill that might be intro-
duced, or in whatever rate that might be laid, call it what
name they would, provision would be made for these
things which were not confined to one denomination, but
which benefitted, and were pleasing to, churchmen, dis-
senters and all classes of people. He hoped that during
the next twelve months the church bells would be rung in
the ordinary way, for he thought it was an insult to the
town that on every important occasion the churchwardens
should have to go round with hat in hand and ask for
contributions towards the e 3 pence of ringing the bells.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. Carne observed that he and his colleague, Mr.
Hutchison, had last year presented a statement of
accounts similar to that now subraittel, but they had
been legally advised to do so only as a matter of courtesy
and not of right. They had been told that if they
formally presented the accounts for approval and in-
spection they would be liable to all the
objections that might be made to the rate,
and he and his colleague had had no alternative
but to act in accordance with that advice. Nobody
would venture to say that the accounts were not strictly
the same, or that anything was sought to be concealed in
those of last year. (Hear, hear.) He had answered every
question that had been put to him in reference to them,
and he had been prepared to give every possible explana-
tion. He saw in the present accounts, under the head of
miscellaneous charges, the sum of 101/ lls 10d for law
expenses. He did not mean to say that that charge was
improper, or that the money had been improperly paid,
but he should say that it would have been avoided had he
and his colleague been allowed to pass the parochial and
cemetery rate before going out of office, as they had been
prepared to do. In conclusion, he appealed to the present
churchwardens to say whether he had not given them all
the assistance in his power, under the difficulties with
which they were surrounded ?

Mr. S. h. Jackson said that he did not rise with the
intention of approving of every item contained in the
accounts, and he was much pleased to hear that the
present churchwardens did not approve of them either,
and that had it been in their power they
would gladly have gone with the parishioners in making
all the charges voluntary, so far as religious affairs were
concerned ; but he was surprised to hear some of the
other sp,a'aers dwell on the expenditure of £4,000 by the
present churchwardens during the past year, just as if
their predecessors had been much more economical.
(Laughter) He did not find in the present statement
such items as were to be found in the accounts of 1855
such as £1 16s for wine ; £26 odd for washing surplices ;
£l3 2s for constables to guard the church doors; £5 for
sextons; and four guineas for vergers; but he observed
that the present churchwardens had to meet charges,
which though incurred, had been left unpaid, by their
predecessors in office. Upon the whole, he thought there
were many features in the account which commended it
very strongly to their approval, and on that acceunt he
would support the original motion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Woodruff replied at considerab:e length. In refer-
ence to the mourning in the church he stated that all the
mourning which they found, and which could be devoted to
the purpose, was used, and he appealed to the parishioners
whether the services of the late Archdeacon, during half a
century, did not justify such an expenditure. (Hear, hear.)
In regard to the ringing of the bells he denied that the
churchwardens had ever gone round cap in hand. The
bells had been rung on every public occasion, such as the
anniversary of a royal birth, or a victory, when Churchmen,
Roman Catholics, and Dissenters, should alike rejoice. The
churchwardens had incurred responsibilities without
knowing whence the money was to come, but they
relied upon the voluntary contributions of the public, and
they rejoiced to say that these voluntary contributions had
met all expenses. He contended that the churchwardens
of the preceding year must either have been totally igno-
rant themselves, or have placed themselves in the hands of
advisers who were ignorant. The present churchwardens
had placed themselves in the hands of those by whom they
had been properly advised, and they had, in consequence,
saved the parish a large amount. In conclusion, he con-
tended that the present churchwardens had done the best
they could under very difficult circumstances. They had
levied as little money as possible. They had exercised the
greatest economy they could. He frankly cha,lenged any
investigation into the accounts, item by item, which
the time would admit of, and declared that the church.
wardens had made every possible effort to discharge their
duties in such a manner as to give satisfaction to all
parties. (Hear, hear.) In reference to Mr. Carne's obser-
vation, Mr. Woodruff read a report of his speech at the
last Easter Vestry, to show that it did not bear the con-
struction Mr. Carne ha ! put upon it.
Mr. Dover rose to put a question, but was met with a
storm
After of hisses, and cries of f° sit down," vote," &c.
persevering fruitlessly for some moments, he at length
resumed his seat.
Mr. Carne said as he saw the feeling of the people, and
as his object was answered by his being enabled to make a
speech, which he could nothave done without moving an
annulment, he now begged to withdraw his motion. (Hear.)
Mr. M, Knight, who had secondedtie the amendment, said
his object was merely to have accounts enquired into.
He, therefore, consented that the amendment should be
withdrawn.
The passing of the accounts was accordingly carried
unanimously.
ELECTION OF CuuncliwAnDENs, &c.
Mr. H. Banner, junr., proposed that Mr. Woodruff be
re.elected senior churchwarden, as the judgment, business-
taltnt, and conciliating manner of that gentleman had
secured f it him the confidence of all parties. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Dover : I have much pleasure in seconding the
motion. (Laughter and Cheers.) It was out of the love
I had for my friend, Mr. Woodruff—(renewed laughter)—
it was out of the regard I had for his public character,
(Laughter.)__
The Chairman : Oh, yes. (Laughter.)
Mr. Dover : Sir, I am a somewhat older man than he is,
and I wished to give him some friendly advice. I would
have done. so last year, had not chance prevented me from
attetaltng the meeting, which I generally do attend, and
have great pleasure in attending—and I hope you and I,
sir, may live a great many years to attend these meetings,
although we may n A be always quite unanimou3. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) What I quarrelled with Mr. Wood-
ruff for was simply that last year he professed that which I
knew he could not do, and I wished to put him on his guard
not to do so any more. (Laughter.) It is an awkward
thing for a public man to make professions which he cannot

carry out. Many men at the polling booths promise to do
things which they can never carry out.
The Chairman : I think ou are damning your friend
with faint praise. (Laughter.)
Mr. Dover : I have very great pleasure in seconding the
proposition of my friend Mr. Banner, that Mr. Woodruff be
re-elected churchwarden.

Mr. Carne said he was perfectly satisfied with Mr. Wood.
ruff and his colleague. lie had no doubt they had done the
duties of their office. Even were it otherwise, be
thought the people of the town were exceedingly
obliged to gentlemen who took upon them the very
arduous duties of churchwarden, and that they had no right
to look too narrowly at them. He claimed, however, a
right to ask an explanation of what he considered Mr.
Woodruff's very offensive speech of last year, which he now
repeated. (" Hear, hear," and "No no.") In that speech
Mr. Woodruff said—" his course should certainly not be
the stand-and-deliver principle—a policeman at one hand,
and a bill in the other." He contended that Mr. Woodruff
had himself issued a notice, threatening proceedings if a
parochial rate was not paid within fourteen days, which
notice was issued the day after the rate was struck. He did
no:, blame Mr. Woodruff for this, but, on the contrary, he
approved of his thus risking unpopularity in doing his duty.
He denied that any single individual had ever been pro-
ceeded against for years on account of church rate.

Mr. Woodruff said all he meant in the sentence quoted
by Mr. Carne was, that he preferred the voluntary efforts of
the people, to the compulsory power of demanding church
rates. He thought the expression a forcible one, and one
which common-sense men would understand.

A Ratepayer : I do believo that Mr. Carne, who is a
professedly rigid churchman, would rigidly take a police-
man with him to enforce church rates. ("No, no," "hear,
hear," and " order.")

Mr. Woodruff begged to remark that he had never sought
the office before, and he did not seek it now. He would not
decline to serve if elected, but he would rather be allowed to
attend to his own affairs.

The Chairman said he found Mr. Woodruff a very agree-
able churchwarden, and hoped he would retain the office.
The question was then put, and Mr. Woodruff re-elected
unanimously.
Mr. J. it. Jeffery proposed that Mr. Charles William
Shaw be re-e'ected junior churchwarden. In doing so he
referred to the remark made by Mr. Carne, about the notice
for parochial rate, and declared that the rate in question was
that which had been levied the preceding year, and which
Mr. Came had not paid up. After a dialogue between Mr.
Jeffery and Mr. Came on this point,
Mr. DentJti seconded the re-election of Mr. Shaw, which
was also carried without any opposirion.
On the motion of Mr. Woodruff, Messrs. Livingstone and
Tinley were elected sidesmen.
On the 'notions of Mr. Woodruff and Mr. Shaw, the
following gentlemen were elected overseers, in the room of
the retiring overseers, who had not come forward for
re-election :—Messrs. W. H. Bairstow, Thomas Owen:,
George Nichson and Thomas Henry Satchel.
Churchwardens were also elected for ;:it. Paul's and other
parish churches, for which see advertisement.
Messrs. Thomas Wylie and George Nickson were ap-
pointed, under the operations of the Local statute 26 Geo.
3, chap. 5, assessors of the assessment to be made for
parochial rate for the ensuing year, to such an amount as
would enable the churchwardens to discharge the respective
obligations placed by the statute. Collectors were also
appointed for the same purpose.