The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-10-22 00:00:00

insult was never offered to a body of men who sit together
for the benefit of the community. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Gentlemen, let me ask you to look to the gentleman who
fills the chair—the civic chair—as mayor of your borough,
Mr. Stewart, the whole of whose life has been devoted, pro-
fessionally or otherwise, to the corporate estate, and the
dock estate. (Cheers.) Are we to be told that he knows
nothing of these objects ? (Cheers) Let me refer you
again to Alderman Samuel Holme—(!oud cheers)
who all his life has been connected with business iu this
town.

A Voice : And James Holme, toy. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.)
Mr. Lloyd : He is here before you, and will, I hope, have
an opportunity of speaking for himself. (Cheers.) I regret
exceedingly that the delicate state of the health of Alderman
Samuel Holme compels him to write me a note, stating that
he cannot attend this evening. We all know that he has
suffered in health, and I could not call upon any gentleman
so circumstanced to come into a hot room, and incur the
danger of going out into the cold air again. Nevertheless,
nobody regrets his absence more than I do, because I am
sure that from his straightforward, talented, and business-
like habits, he would have been well able to tell you what
the corporate estate is, of which my opponent tells you
nobody knows anything whatever. (Cheers.) Bat what
does my opponent say for himself ? Return me to the
Council, he says, and with the least possible delay you
shall know all about it. (Laughter.) Let me ask you
if some of you do not recollect 1833, when my late
partner, then the town clerk, Mr. Foster, went through
the ordeal of a Royal Commission of Enquiry into the estate
and property of the Corporation ? I was then his partner,
and although I did not appear in court, yet, I was actively
engaged in obtaining information from time to time, as
might be ri quired. Fur twenty-one days that commission
sat—and when, at the end of as many periods of years as
the Corporation had existed in 1833—1 hope, if such
another enquiry should arise, it may be found as clearly and
as honestly dealt with, as the Corporation was previously
to that period. In the book which we published of that
twenty-one days' enquiry, the maps which were produced,
and the information which was obtained from every source,
you have an amount of information which anybody can,
upon applying at the Town Hall, obtain a sight of; and
there he will get a full history of the magnificent property '
which the burgesses of Liverpool possess. I may also
refer you to the published accounts of the Corporation,
which have been published year by year, since the year
1796, and which will show you the increase of that estate.
I may refer you also to the annual accounts of the Corpora•
tion, where you can put your fingers upon any portion of the
estate, see what has been the incomes and expenditure upon
it, and how it all goes on from year to year. Let me say,
gentlemen, upon this point, that there are those without
who are jealous of you. (Hear, hear.) This would be a
very nice income to transfer to the metropolis to be dealt
with by government officials. (Hear, hear.) We have had
a great fight in the last session, and I can only say, that if
there is one member of the Council to whom the town is
indebted for his strenuous exertions in Parliament on your
behalf, it is Mr. Alderman Bold. (Heat hear, and loud
cheers.) Gentlemen, it is highly necessary that we should
look after the State, and keep it in its integrity as now it
appears. But the commerce of the Mersey is increasing so
rapidly that you have scarcely dock accommodation for the
shipping which comes to your port It has been stated by
those high in authority, that there shall only be one dock
management within the waters of the Mersey, and it was, I
may say, forced upon the Corporation that they should take
the natural position—the position which nature herself
has given—I mean the Wallasey Pool, in order to
connect it with the dock management of the port
of Liverpool. Now, gentlemen, what is our position ?
The dock estates, as you are aware, is supported by the
money which it borrows—l mean to say that it has to
provide out of its rates for the interest of the borrowed
money. There is no beneficial interest. It does not belong
to any individuals, because, if it does not expend itself in the
dock extension, the surplus must go to the reduction of its
rates. But, gentlemen, the corporation has property, and
it has stepped in. as it has, on more than one occision,
stepped in to provide for the great increase of the commerce
of the port, and it has found the money at the present time
to the extent of a million and odd of money to purchase
works over at Birkenhead. Bet at the present moment
there is no revenue to meet the interest of that money, and
it will take all the care of your representatives to guard the
income of your corporation, so that the property of Liver•
pool shall not suffer for Birkenhead. (Hear, hear, and loud
cheers). Now, gentlemen, it has been stated to you by my
opponent that he is a large ratepayer. lam also a ratepayer ;
and, I believo, either for good or bad, I have as much brick
and mortar within the borough as my opponent. (Cheers).
I can only assure you, that if a rate comes upon oar
property for the purposes of an improvement—a
rate, which we have never felt in Liverpool —if
our town dues are taken from us, I shall then have to suffer,
in proportion to my little means, as much as any one among
the ratepayers. It is not by the magnitude of the rates we
pay that the question is to he decided, because the small
man suffers as much in proportion as the large one. If my
opponent has a large em,ablistiment, tor the purpose Or
carrying on a lucrative business, he ought not to grumble
at paying in proportion to the smallest man amongst us,
(Hear hear,) Therefore, as regards being a large rate-
payer, I have only to say that I pay upon a large rental as
far as the premises I occupy are concerned, and my property
pays rates also, which, if my tenants did not pay, I should
have in the shape of rent. Upon that ground I think we
are upon an equality; therefore, I do hops, that in this
contest we shall have nothing more of this. Well, then, I
now come to a part which is rust painful to me,
because it is a disclosure to you, just as Mr.
Rae- has been obliged to make, of a private
confidence between me and Mr. Jeffery. (Hear, hear.)
I feel it most painful to have to bring into this discussion
the names of other gentlemen who have nothing whatever
to do with it, nevertheless, I stand before you here, and as
honestly as your chairman gave the account of a conversa-
tion between him and Mr. Jeffery a fortnight ago, when he
declared that he did not intend to oppose me, so honestly
and so straightforwardly will I give you an account of the
conversation which took place between me and Mr. Jeffery
in October, 1853. At that period business called me into
Mr. Jeffery's establishment. I saw Mr. Jeffery in his
counting-house, when he thus commenced a conversation—
" Well, Mr. Lloyd, do you intend to make Mr. Bold an
alderman ? "—you will remember that Mr. Bold had never
been in the council up to that time, though he had been a
most active member of the Dock Committee—l replied,
" Mr. Bold has already been an active member of the Doc"k
Committee, Mr Jeffery, and I do not see why he should
be an alderman." (Hear, hear.) Mr. Jeffery said, " Oh.
but he is very unpopular, and you stand exceedingly well ;"
and putting out that parental hand in the manner which any
body who knoWs him will understand, and with his most
bland and tender tone, such as he might use to a son whom
he wished to direct in the proper course be ought to take—
Mr. Jeffery said to me, " don't you vote for him, I know a
great many who will not vote for him." I answered, "Why,
I have just met a friend of my own who said he would not
vote for him " Some other conversation of the same kind
passed between us, he urging me not to vote for Mr. Bold,
and I pressing his claims to the honour, and at last I said,
4, Well, Mr. Jeffery, if that be so, I suppose my friend and
I had better pair." Upon that we left. The election of
Mr. Bold took place in October, to supply a vacancy caused
by the death of Mr. John Holmes, and be having the seat
only to the 9th of the next month, Mr. Bold would have
to be re-elected on that day. My election came on on the
Ist November, and Mr. Jeffery was chairman of the joint
committee, who then returned me without opposition to the
council. After my election, the joint committee having
behaved so exceedingly well, and, as your chairman has
stated, " little dinners" being agreeable in the ward—
(laughter)-1 gave a "little dinner" at the " Bee." There
were about fifty gentlemen present, including Mr. Picton,
Mr. Reay, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Haigh, but Mr. Jeffery
thought proper to decline the invitation. I was asked what
was the matter between myself and Mr. Jeffrey ? and I
replied that I did not know. Then, it was said, " Oh, you
have done something wrong in voting for Mr. Bold. Wall,
you must only go to Mr. Jeffery, and you will make it all
right," " No," I said, " I will never go to Mr.
Jeffery-" (Applause.) What then took place ?
We had a very happy party. I do not know whether
anybody missed the society, at the dinner, of Mr. Jeffery,
but I did not—(laughter)—and all seemed exceedingly
happy round the table. Well, when I was in London last
summer on the deputation for resisting Mr. Lowe's Shipping
Dues Bill, I met Mr. Jeffery, who was up, but not in that
business, in the lobby of the House of Commons; and Mr.
Jeffery and I, as thick as " Ingle weavers".—(laughter)
walked up arm and arm to his new establishment in Regent
street, where he wished to present me to his new partner.
That was in May or June last ; and if I had been so very bad
a person, why should he have wished to introduce me to
his new partner? (Hear, bear) Now, that is the sum
and substance of it all ; but knowing that Mr. Jeffery had
written to me a note in 1853, after the election of Mr. Bold
as alderman, and knowing also that a gentleman who could
have born these things in his breast for three years, must
have kept a copy of the correspondence, and that 1 would
be at a disadvantage if I could not produce it, I looked
for it, and, fortunately found it, though at first apprehensive
that I had burned it. No doubt Mr. Jeffery thought he
had my honourable colleagues, Mr. Pieton and Mr Johnson,
by the nose, and that he could coerce me to go as he wished
in the council ; but if I had known Mr. Jeffery then, as I
know him now—if I had known then what took place, that
which your chairman has told you, and if I had gone into his
counting-house on a matter of business between myself and
his establishment, and if he had put that question to me,
gentlemen, I would have said to him, "Mind your
own business." (Hey, hear, and great applause.)
I will vote independently in the council without the dicte-
tion of Mr. Jeffery—and I have not for fifteen years, I
believe, shrunk from giving a vote in the council at any time
I was called on. I can assure you also, that, if I am again
elected by you, and if any matters over which I have no
control should occur to keep me out of the council-room, I
shall never close the council behind me until I have given
a vote which you may see recorded in the papers of the
council chamber. I must suppose, after what has taken
place, that this correspondence was written for the purpose
of bringing it forward at some time. It was in October,