The Express.
London, England, 1850-07-30 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

Thu hours then went into committal of supply.
731,2061. was proposed for half pay and retirement to
oaken of the navy and royal marines.
Mr. HUME s 1 this was a rots on which he malt nice
the question of which ha had so long given notice, namely,
how far the government or the homes wars disposed to carry
out the rearssmendation of the menmittems on naval estimate

which eat in 111411, that the aumbsr of admirals should be
gradually reduced from 160 to 100.
Sir F. BARING maid his hon friend must acknowledge
that this was hardly the proper method of arriving at the
result which he himself desired. No one could propose to
deprive existing Olken on half pay of the amonst to which
they were entitled, and it was useless for his hon. friend to
propose to stretch eff the sum of 3,0001 unless he could scratch
off a proportionate amber of admirals with equal facility.
(Laughter.) He (Sir F. Baring) fully admitted that
the whole subject deserved consideration ; but as regarded
the particular recommendation to which he referred, he mast
remark that, had the chairmen been allowed to vete, there
would not have been a majority of the committee la favour
of it. The committee proposed that if the recommendation
were adopted the retired list should be kept open for captains
who might wish to avail themselves of it. An actuary had
calculated that the utmost amount saved by the means pro.
posed would be 10,0001. a year ; and if the retired list of cap-
tams were largely i..creued that side of the question must
not be forgotten. The course adopted in this country
for many press was that of makiag tronsotions ae economi-
cally as possible. Then came a period when it was abeo-
lately necessary that a number of promotions should take
place; and he thought it weed be by far better to let them
flow on evenly than to have to make them by sadden jerks.
The reduction in the amount of half pay had already
been considerable. Since 1831 it had amounted
to 160,0001. As he had already intimated, he was opposed
to any immediate alteration of the present arrangement, but
at the same time he would not deny that the question might
be usefully considered at some future period.
Captain PELHAM looked for the remedy of the evil
complained of in increased economy in naval expenditure
generally, which might be secured without at all impairing
th.• efficiency of the service, and if such economy were really
carried out the country would, he believed, enable the
government to place the retired list on a piper foot-
ing. In the last two years a saving of
800,0001. bad been effected in connection with the
dockyards and the building of ships; and, if the contract
system were revived, a still further saving might be effected.
He did not expect to see a thorough reform in the Ad-
miralty until the Board, with the exception at least of the
First Lord, had ceased to be political, and had become per-
manent. He regretted that he could not (as was under-
stood) vote with the hon. member for Montrose.

Mr. COBDEN was astonished at the conclusion at which
the hon. gentleman had arrived, after arguing in favour of a
reduction of expenditure in the navy. t Hese, hear.)
Those who spoke out of doors sometimes accused the
house of having an aristocratic leaning, and of
almcst confining themselves to proposals to cut
down the weaker and humbler portions of
the service. The juice of that accusation would now be
tested. The report recommended that the number of
admirals should be gradually reduced from 150 to 100, not
by dismissing any admirals, not by depriving any existieg
admirals of their Batt, rank, or pay, but by making only one
promotion for three deaths until the desired diminution kad
besa effected. The country would now have an opportunity
of Judging how far that house was disposed to treat
fairly and equitably different classes of public servants.
A considerable numbet of shipwrights had been
dismissed, and meetings had been held to raise subscriptions
fur their relief. The committee on the estimates declared
that only 14 admirals could be employed. Would the
house, thee, reject the reasonable proposition before it ?
Admiral DUNDAS thought the hon. gentleman bad not
put the qu stion fairly before the house. In 1816 there
were 220 admirals, there were now only 150, of which
number 40 received only the pay of rear-admirals. In
1816 the number of captains was 867 ; it was now 511 ;
and the number of lieutenants having been 3,999 at the
former pericd, was now only 2,200. One half the naval
officers had gone off the list sines 1815, and still the hon.
gentleman was not satisfied.
Mr. HUME said that the gallant admiral stated that in
1816 there was a certain number of admirals, and that they
were reduced. Would he state how many had been pro-
moted since that time ? The fact is, they bad had more
promotions during the peace than ever obtained during the
war. During the last year 14 admirals had been promoted.
The committee found that there were 156 admirals, and they
recommended that thee should be gradually reduced to
100, which he thought was a great many. Take the
list of 600 captains, and they would find that 250 of them
had
out of BCO had never served a day as commander.
The fact was they were making the service of the navy a pen-
sion list.

Admiral BERKELEY observed that the hon. member for
the West Riding was never more mistaken in his life than
when he raid that the navy was kept up for the aristocracy.
These men were promised this promotion for their galhuttry ;
it was a bargain made in the time of war.
Mr. BRIGIIT thought the hon. member for Glou-
cester, who spoke last on behalf of the admirals,
had put this question in a very unfair and
unsound view before the house. He appeared to think there
was some bargain with every man that entered the navy that
at a certain period of his life he should be an admiral
(Hear, hear) Some hon. gentlemen opposite appeared to
agree with that. (" Hear, hear," from the same quarter.)
That was the strangest notion of public service that he ever
heard in that house. The only contract that could be im-
plied was that upon certain principles laid down, whether it
were upon seniority or in any other way, that as the service
required promotion for the efficient carrying on
of that department, they should have such pre emi-
nence as the service could glee them, but there
was no contract that a proportion of officers should be
raised to the rank of admiral. That would be to make the
navy subservient to the offizen and not the officers to the

navy.
Colonel THOMPSON could not help saying that he was
obliged to agree with the hon. member for Manchester
that there could not by possibility be any such principle as
officers claiming promotion beyond that which was necessary
for the service.

Admiral BOWLES supported the vote.
Mr. HUME remarked that it was the Admiralty itself
that proposed in 1830 that only one should be promoted
to the rank of admiral for every thee* vacancies, till the
number was reclined to 100 ; but the Admiralty did not act
up to that.
Sir F. T. BARING said it was his arm conviction, that if

they carried out the recommendation of the committee, it
would at that be attended with an increase of el, pence. Its
did sot mean to say MO teat by a well considered whims
they could reduce the numbers of admirals, and effect a
saving thereby.

...
Kr. CORRY supported the Tots on the ground that
not to make the promotions would be * commit a breach of
faith.

Captain PECHRLL complained that., OA ptain Sir Henry
Hart, the hydopapher of the navy, and lEother °Mote who
held another appointment, had been compelled to aims to
their names being placed on the retired list, being informed
that they must either do this or give. up their appointments,
while a junior fame bad been permitted to hold the situa-
tion of Commissioner of Greenwich Hospital, and was not
reqaired to place himself on the retired list.
• •

Six T. ACLAND laid it was true there was a majority of
the committee in favtur of the recommendation, but the
chairman, who did not vote, was against it, and that made
it tqual. The saving by carrying out the recommendation
would only be 10,0001. a year, and in • great maritime
country like this he did not think that was an object to put
in comparison with the just expectations of the gallant men
who wars waiting for their promotion.
Sir J. OKANANI said ho was not in the house when
the discussion commenced, and therefore he was not aware
what was the precise form of the emotion, but he imagined
that in point of form it was not a reduction in the number
of admirals that was proposed by the hon. member for
Mantra*, but that he had rafted that question by pre-
posing some small diminution in the vote. In point of sub-
*tenor, the hon. member wished to raise in this committee
the question that was discussed in the naval com-
mittee, where the proposition was carried for which he
(Sir J. Graham) held himself responsible, that there should
be a reduction in the number of admirals from 150 to 100.
The hon. gentleman the member for Devoe aid that radar
tion would not be of any g use, but still they ought to
consider that it was a saving ; and the right point to which
the House of Commons ought to come to was, that in the
state service there ought to be no unnectraary expense. Now
he was bound to say that his hon. friend the member for
Tyrone was equally right in the assertion that the gradual
reduction of the number of :area on half-pay in the
navy, so far as admirals worn oonantad, had not

yirt his. earned into effect.
promotion is three vecasein. The real whether the time had arrived for
tootation R~
the
which pervaded all other reeks apply to admirals.. `4",,e
it appeared in evidence that at no time duriam• War wee there a greater number of admirals emploj *T5
.
the antatry thea 32, and that the number empliv.a.l7,
the present tame did sot timed 12. Now be •
hew
dedly of opinion
oraltht although the admirals' lie; git.„,_
considered mere ees am a reward for put
yet it was a question of degree, and they
bear in mind what were the real wants of the
merely*. In time of peace 130 admirals and
w ale were • larger camber than were f,
(Rear, bear.) nil prepaid= before the sole,"
mine* wee that the slumber et admirals should he er‘sel:44;
redacted from 150 to 100, that, se upon the death of tr.4l" eaptaiss they Daly peanut= one, sad as on the cleattirtesi
three commanders they only promoted one lieutetuot as the death of three admirals, only we alweld be marrieti
d'
till the somber was reduced to 100. Mar, btu.,
might be said that, oonsideriag the age of the poot.tga,..`t
the probability wu, if that rule were ad pad, tut it;*
short time there would be no admirals sufficiently
and active to undertake the important duties of naval Coo?. menders. But the committee had also proposed, is order
give vigour and activity to the higher brunches of the
vice, that one out of every three promotions should not go by seniority, but that, on the responsibility of the Admiralty,
officers of distinguiahed merit, without reference to senora should be raised to the rank of admiral; whereby the
would derive the benefit of both vigour sod seniority.
Having propounded that view in the committee, and hiving
mince reflected on it attentively and maintained it, Le (111
cot hesitate to support it now, both by his speech and so e
(Rear, bear.) It was indispensable to have loath
and
vigour lei the admiral,' hat; and that twilit only be law.,
by promoting by merit as well as by seniority, to we Brest
of one in three. He considered this point the woe ie.
portant which had been brought before the whet ammit•ee.
Here advocated.
and he could
not hesitate now to support the vice he cep
Sir F. T. BARING said he did not believe that this am a
question of noway at all. It was very well to te:y et
economy in general ; but he should have bus better satisfied
had the right hon. baronet stated is figures the =out of
economy which he proposed to them. Cnild sue
saving be made to the public, it might be expedient cad
proper to encounter the risk of dissatisfying be peo
ream by passing over the claims of old god
deserving officers; but the amount in •piesdom
so small, that he doubted whether they shou,d
be acting wisely and with a view to real economy, i,y
lowing out the system proposed. To strike otl adreiny
sounded very large; but he believed the savior there,' ern
mot estimated at more than 10,0001. a year at the utmost,
end the absolute saving would be very imaa itd•ed.
It was proposed that part of the promo ions shou:d het y
merit; but it should be remembered that those who had
merit grew old too. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Admiral Bo wtrra,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the reduction of onethird tf
the whole number of admirals would effect a erect suite io
the amount of half-pay; otherwise it tea case
of
despair. (Hear, hear.) If they could not either
.tf,,e
youth and vigour into the list, the matter was in :Bed
hopeless.
Mr. CORRY expressed his conviction th it ih the t.srve
of • few years there would be • very great infusion of y „Ism
blood into the admiral's list.

Mr. HENLEY said the country would not long rahnino
the existing state of things in the navy, where the pr•iy.
between the effective and non-effective force had und. ?tit
no change for 35 years. He should cordlal.y
amendment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER depesce:s:
the interference of the House of Commons on these quer. t..
(Ironical cheers.) He deprecated it, t'st as to w, i.d
be done, but how it should be done. The interference
the house had mopped the reduction which was in C..:lltit
of being made. Several motions had been made to see.
lents promotion, and ,the government had beet :e:: a
minorities. Hence additions had been male t., .te
weight of the navy, and the government had been preset:el
carrying out the reductions they contra:pia:M.
Capt. HARRIS said that in case eta war, it 'nu.: ti
neoemary to call a great number in the halt-pay ..s: ,r.:4
active servica. In case of an emergency. they to:
make naval officers at once, so that the noneerf.cnse
service was not the mere dead weight which it war cs..ed.
The committee then divided—
For Mr. Hume's amendment 72
Against

Sir G. PECHELL said he wished to tali the setec.....
the committee to a subject of rest hsrdsh:p which
affected the senior lieutenants of the navy. It had Seen
arranged that 300 of the senior lieutenant.: of the navy elocu.d
receive an increased pay of 7s. a day; ! s:'oy on order in
council it was decided that there accejte,: t.:e ran,: of
commander, and retired as such. sbould c:.*. receive that
increase of pay.
After a few words from Sir F. B
agreed to.
The vete of 490,3451. for military pmoiens allmances
was neat agreed to.
Oa the vote of 167,0361. for civil pensione and islowireee,
Sir G. PECHELL said a reguiaticn was ma•
!.
that the widows of officers marrying after that loxe te.eo.l
forfeit their pentions, which he considered very seem.
Sir F. BARING said, that as a general rule it e
continued. However, there were cases that might e .sa:s
into consideration.

e T)te WM

The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then severally 'greet •a-
-135,700/. for ship stern; 21,1411. for seamen's and mit.:es
extra pay, and 8.4501. extra pnvis(ons for navy.
On the vote of 764,236/. fur Poe of packet s-rr;:e.
Mr. SCOTT moved that the vote be redirzed
They were at present paying as much for 7.:),.)t-) tr.: es II
they would have to pay tor 370,000 miles.
Sir F. BARING said the amount of the entrat wa' 71.1
every year and he hoped the how: CO:
violation of contract at present.
Lard NAAS was unwilling to reopen the qa.sti 7.
mail to Au:uslia, which was so fully discussed the te:
evening. But he should say he thought that diseu,n.n vu
postponed, as also the present vote, until the (write ?r.l::.e
relating to the issue between the East Inla
her Maj. sty's government should have teen.
(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER te
gave no such undertiking on the night in ouestien.
Mr. HUME thought there should be a yeir:y etstercent
of the number of rips under contract, the Is atees

went, and the amoant they coat ; with an opp.
to show what income they produced from park cow le
other unreel. (Hear, hear ) These votes shou' ! as,
introduced earlier in the ses.bn. It was the (Tint ,a
that many of their contracts were most rick:es:l W.:T.I
into. (Hear, hear )
After a few words from Mr. SCOTT,
The CHAIRMAN inquired if ,he hon. man ber !Cir lel
to press his proposition to • division. k Cries of \vat
draw.") After which,
Mr. F. SCOTT withdrew hie motion, and after some dis-
mission the Tote was agreed to.
On the vote of 211,1591. 3e. 7d. for the estimate of the
naval expenditure in excess,
S.r H. NY ILLOUUHRY said that f,r the :o>t nor
yeas* there had been • grant amouroirg tr,
1,800,0001. He called upon his right hon. tn:na q 7,
state to the committee on what authositr the nwney
wen
paid. This was 0.4 c,,nrenient to the Treasury. cor
was
there any surplus upon any other grant out of which the
money could be paid. Tnc Appropriation Act stated that y,
must not exceed the entire sum in any serri:e, bat If :tee
was an excess in any vote it was in the pima or the Ad-
miralty to go to the Treasury and get their authority to
spend the money. There was 29,0341. 13s. 61 for iron
steamers. If the committee could support that gran', r: WAS
absurd to say that this house could have any c,ntror wtat-
ever over the public money. There was a distinct vi,;ol.
ti rn of the Appropriation Act, which declared that a certain
sum of money wan to be devoted t r the wants of the array
and navv. and they must receive the intim am:uelt-
Sir F. BARINti was not aware of all the Wrinkles he had
been guilty of until he heard the speech of is hon. bind.
He bad only been too honest, and would take care not to be
honest again. The year before the last the money had
been taken for the purp se of paying for these steamers.
The contract was expected to be pr COI tura before the ter.
minali mof the demist year, and did not tell within the
financial year, and the expanse which hat been incurred was
transfered to the next year.
Mr. HENLEY sail that what the hon. btronet cont-
pinned of was not only the mode of keel lig the account.,
but that • sum of 211,1,11/1. het log been spent is ex, no of
the estimate, the hon. gentleman said, true I have entailed
the fault and have shown it ; I might have carried the
money over to next year, and then you would not hue
known about it • but there was • third mode of ac:nc, Ind
that was not deafirg with the emcee. He agrei d eith the
hon. baronet that if money was spent for this estimate,
should be plainly shown.
After acme further conversation the vote was agreed to.
453,8911, was voted fur the Commissariat Departmeut,
and
43,7911. for half-pay, pensions, and allowances in the sane
department.
5,2301. was proposed to defray the expense of steering
monument to the late Sir Robert reel in Westemaster

te

Abhey.
Lord J. MANNERS said he believed there Wes a sent&
impression out of doors that no sore monum tits outtht
to
he erected in Weetmincer Abbey, sad he hoped the se:ed
would receive the consideration of the government.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was no ether piece what
the monument could be placed with propriety.
The vote was then agreed to.
50,000/. was voted for civil contingencies.
The house then resumed, and the CHAIRMAN INT,HHI

Proven.
The report of the supply on Friday night lit
brought up.
DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE'S ANNUITY DILL.
II This bill was read a wood time.
NAVY PAY BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
EXCISE SUGAR AND LICENSES BILL.
This bill paned through committee.
CUSTOMS ACTS.
The house then went into committee on these sets.
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQU ER b,
now prop.acd to repeal the remaining export duty on
which amounted only to VOW. At present smelt wire
aot allowed to carry out fete of dots to any country bit ihtt
to which they belonged. That sometimes entailed gust bud
ship, and he pruposed to et rid of the List *bred ol the
A resolution for that purpose was then agreed to.
A resolution was also propoied by the Cronin
the Enomaiavia, and agreed to placing 'hips of Jitirrect
Ulna on • level with respect to ;he timbir duty.