The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-12-23 00:00:00

Werioaio

HEALTH COMMITTEE.-YESTERDAY.

The usual weekly meeting of this committee was held on
yesterday, at half-past two o'clock, Mr. LANOSDALE in the
chair.

The other members present were—Messrs. Dover, Moss,
Beckwith, Fleming, Robertson Gladstone, Hodson, Johnson,
Godfrey, Halhead, .11.1‘Nicoll, Henderson, and Nicholson
Two gentlemen, Messrs. 'Johnson and Roskell, waited on
the committee on the part of the inhabitants of the township
of Kirkdale, in reference to the present state of Smith-street
and the streets adjacent. It was the great thoroughfare,
they observed, for the walking portion of the community ;
but it was now rendered almost wholly impassable by the
proceedings of the cottage owners in the neighbourhood, in
breaking up the ground for building and making bricks.
There being certain legal difficulties in the way of the
adoption of this street, the matter was referred to the bo-
rough engineer and the town-clerk to report on.

Mr. RisnTorr, the building surveyor, ieported the inspec-
tion of 172 delapidated privies and ashpits, 140 of which
were undergoing alterations and repairs, and 32 of which
required such ; together with various ther details in his
department.
Mr. NEWLANDS, the borough engineer, reported numerous
particulars of the work done and in hand in his department.
And Mr. FRESH, the inspector of nuisances, reported the
emptying of 1072 cesspools, the inspection of 111 nuisances
complained of by the inhabitants, and reference of 107 others
to the borough engineer for remedy by drainage, &c., with a
detail of other operations of his staff, including particulars
of a sanitary examination of 632 court-houses, 55 lodging-
houses, 374 cellars formerly cleared of inmates, in the lower
parts of the town, and from which it appeared that the
sanitary officers had made special examinations during the
week of 2020 different apartments in street-houses, and 1916
rooms in court-houses in the districts named, for the purpose
of eradicating unhealthiness therefrom, besides the cellar
inspections above named.
Mr. M`GowAN informed- the committee that on the pre-
vious day there was a kind of crusade before the magistrates
with reference to the notices which had been served on per-
sons for not whitewashing and purifying their dwellings,
and they were very fairly met by one legal gentleman, and
stoutly opposed by another ; and the result was they obtained
convictions in every case against sixty or seventy persons,
with fines varying from 20s. to 3s. and 4s. and the magis-
trates expressed a hope that such proceedings would have
the effect of making persons keep their houses in good order.
They complimented the course adopted by the committee.
Mr. JOHNSON. asked were the convictions obtained against

the owners or the occupiers ?
Mr. 111‘GowArr : Against the owners in every case but
one, where the occupier made the house very dirty in a
short time after occupation. Mr. Fresh thought it his duty
to proceed against the occupier in that case.
The MEDICAL-OFFICER of HEALTH reported that the con-
tinued low temperature causes a progressive increase in the
mortality from diseases of the lungs, and that the general
mortality of the borough is consequently, as in the previous
week, comparatively high. The total deaths were 247, being
six more than in the week preceding, but ten less than the
average of the same week in the preceding six years, after
allowing for increase of population. From diseases of the
lungs the deaths were 116, being 12 more than in the pre-
tious week, and a greater number than in any week of the
nine months preceding. Excluding this class of diseases,
each week's return shows a decrease of 6 in the mortality of
the borough. From zymotic diseases there were 53 deaths,
being 26 fewer than in the week previous. This includes
12 from hopping cough, 10 from cholera, 7 from measles, 6
from typhus, 5 from scarlatina, and 4 from diarrhoea. Bowel
complaints are not more than usually prevalent, and neither
the registrars' returns, nor the daily reports of the district
medical officers furnish any indication of the immediate spread
of epidemic disease. The temperature was below the average
on every day of the week. The mean, 37 6-10th degrees,
was nearly 4-1 degrees below the average of the same week
of the preceding seven years. In the corresponding week of
last year, when the mean temperature was 11 degrees higher,
the mortality, from diseases of the lungs was little more
than half that of the past week. The medical officer of
health also called the attention of the committee to the
offensive condition of Grosvenor-street, opposite Grosvenor-
terrace. This street was reported to the committee on the.
20th June, 1848, as having a stream of filth flowing diago-
nally along it for a space of 50 yards. The street is still in
the same condition as then reported, and in its present state
is a disgrace to the town.
Mr. JOHNSON said that ho had brought the condition of
this street some years ago under the notice of the com-
mittee.

The BOROUGH ENGINEER replied that in 1851 he had
brought plans before the committee for the improvement of
the street, but that they could not be carried out in conse-
quence of the objections of the owners. Were it not for
those objections, the street would have been long since
adopted, but now there was no use in temporisi%
The matter was- referred to the borough engineer to re-
port on as to the expense.

MORTALITY OF LIVERPOOL. -VISIT FROM THE INSPECTOR OF

TIIB BOARD OF RBALTII.

Mr. LEE, inspector of the general board of health, was then
introduced. He said : Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, being in
town, as the inspector of the general board of health, I
thought it my duty to pay my respects to you. I need not
say that every fact and circumstance connected with the de-
velopment of cholera, and the means that may be taken
for its prevention, and also the apparent cause of its de-
velopment, must be of very great importance, especially at
the present time, to the general board of health, as they
have, under the order in council, to advise as to preventive
or precautionary measures, and such palliatives as may be
adopted with advantage throughout the country in the event
of the epidemic becoming general next year, as maybe expected.
With that view, hearing there had been some cases in Liver-
pool, a minute was made at the latter end of last week,
which I will take leave to read to the committe :—" 17th
Dec., 1853.—The board, having been informed, although
there had been a very great expenditure in sanitary works
in Liverpool, that the mortality continues to be excessively
high, especially from zymotic diseases, deems it important to
ascertain the circumstances they may be attributed to,—
Order that Mr. Lee be instructed to visit Liverpool as early
as convenient, to examine the causes of epidemic, and the
places where cholera recently prevailed, and report to the
board thereon."—lt forms no part of my duty to interfere,
or attempt to interfere in any degree, with any matter of
local management or arrangement in Liverpool ; but simply
to do what am in the course of doing through the assistance
of your officers, to look at those localities, and not so much
with reference to Liverpool, (for the reason I have already
stated), and to report to the general board of health, as to
any peculiar circumstance; every matter connected with
this disease being thought of the utmost importance. I
commenced my labours yesterday, and have visited along
with Dr. Duncan and your engineer, and to day with Mr.
Fresh's assistants, a considerable number of places, •where
cholera has recently exhibited itself in Liverpool ; and I say,
with three exceptions, so far as the inspection has gone, I
have found the cases have been in close contiguity with
open privies, and almost with those exceptions, iu the houses
immediately adjoining to those open privies. It seems, there-
fore, although your drainage works are very excellent,
and the pavement has been wonderfully improved, and 3ou
have done, undoubtedly, more than has been done anywhere else
in sanitary works, —still it does seem that a s the privies now
are, they are a very serious evil. Of this you are fully con-
vinced, and I am glad to hear that you are about to apply
to parliament for powers to remedy those evils. The posi-
tions of those privies, and their character are both objec-
tionable, and from the character of the houses themselves,
I do not know how they can be remedied generally, except
by converting them into some sort of closets from which
the soil should go away. They are in the most disgusting
state, as perhaps some of the committee may have seen ; and
the emanations from them are in very many instances within
a few feet of the window of the rooms in which the persons
have died of cholera. In a great number of instances, such
is the position of the houses, the windows of the chamber
in which persons have died, look down on the place where
the soil is. lam quite aware you have not power to remedy
those things, and I am glad you are about to apply for pow-
ers to remedy them ; but it is a remarkable fact, so flar as
this inspection has gone, with three exceptions (two of which
can be accounted for by other causes) those cases occur in
houses closely contigious to privies.
The C HAIRMAN remarked that t 1 e committee was quite aware
of what Mr. Lee had stated. They knew the proximity of
the windows to those places was such, in many cases, the
only wonder was the disease was not more prevalent ; and
until they had something from head quarters to assist them
in rectifying this evil, they were actually tied with their
hands behind their bads.
Mr. GLADsxoNE : The powers we seek to convert privies
into water closets, is to apply only in exceptional cases. Is
not that so ?

Mr. IlopsoN : If the medical officer of health say they
are injurious to health, you can convert them : but unless he
say so, by the act of parliament you can go no further.
The CHAIRMAN said in his opinion the water closets
would never have the desired effect. Nothing would be an
absolute cure, but some power to make the baCk premises
elsewhere, so that the petty, or whatever it might be, should
be at a sufficient distance from any windows that would
spread contagion.
Mr APNIcoLt. : You must deal with things as they are.
Tho CHAIRMAN : Whilst the present law ii is force they
will keep building, and we cannot prevent them.
Mr. LEE : One of the best apparatus for common pur-
poses is aue to your borough engineer. There are several
kinds of apparatus not liable to disarrangement, that might
be kept clean, either under public or private control, and
at a cost not exceeding £2 for each place. I am quite aware
when you have got an ignorant dirty set of people to deal
with, there are great difficulties. It is an educational pro-
cess ; and will require some time to reform people whose
habits were at present disgusting, and teach them to use a
water closet properly. In a great many instances I have
examined, I do not see how the evil can he remedied, other
than by some apparatus of a nature that will take the soil
down into the drain, because the buildings are already
erected, and unless we have powers to tike some down, ynu
cannot get more space than there is. We all know, who happen
to be blessed with the means—that we can have these accom-
modations in our own houses; and they an be used regularly
without being in the slightest degree ofensive. You would
have trouble no doubt for a considerable time, but as they

are now, their very character is such, they can not be but
prejudicial to health, and Dr. Duncan will bear me out in
this. I don't speak from medical knowledge, but the result
of long experience in those matters ; and if your bill went
to the extent only of proof being required that it was pre-
judicial to health, and that disease was produced by it, then
I should scarcely think it would go far enough. That of
course I say with all deference to the committee. If it were
capable of being prejudicial to health in the estimation of
the medical officer, that would be a good turning point,
because you would then throw the whole responsibility on
him who is, no doubt, best able, from his professional skill,
to judge.
Mr. GLADSTONE : Perhaps Mr. Lee is not aware that
privies, as they exist at present, are under the sanction of
an act of parliament. The act of parliament points out how
many privies there should be, and I think points out the
position and size of them.. The borough engineer will be
able to speak more correctly on that point.
Mr. NEWLANDS : They are built under the old building
act.

Mr. GLADSTONE : That has the sanction of parliament.

Mr. NEWLANDS : In going through the courts Mr. Lee
could indicate the successive improvements in the acts of
parliament, by the successive improvements of the dwellings.
Mr. HonsoN disagreed on one point with Mr. Lee,
namely, that Liverpool was unhealthy. Liverpool had been
in a very healthy state, and they had very little reason to
complain.
Mr. M‘NicoLL : Mr. Lee only referred to one class of
disease—zymotic diseases.

The CHAIRMAN considered Dr. Duncan should be called
upon to explain what was his experien6e for, some time past.
Mr. GLA.DSTONE : Before Dr. Duncan speaks, it is only
fair to make this remark, and as the opportunity is offered
to me before Mr. Lee, I mention it whilst he is here,—in-
dependent of this matter which occupies his attention, I
think you will agree with me, and most of the other mem-
bers will also agree with me, it would be well if he turned
his attention to the manifest injury we suffer, in a sanitary
point of view, from the smoke emitted from our manufac-
tories. Our health suffers more from this one circumstance,
the denso heavy atmosphere with which our lungs arc
charged from morning till night, and causes more mischief,
more indisposition, and a greater number of fatal cases than
anything else. It is an evil to the whole town.

Mr. LEE : I have observed a great quantity of smoke
here, and I could not help remarking it yesterday to Dr.
Duncan and your engineer, when they accompanied 11111 ; but
it does not form a part of the mission with which I am
charged ; and as I said, I do not come with the least idea or
desire to interfere at all with your local arrangements ; and
I think perhaps you may not know there has been recently
an act passed which would enable you to deal with the smoke
nuisance.
Mr. GLADSTONE : I am aware of the act.

Mr. LEE : Quite irrespective of any general board of
health, I cannot but observe how the fronts of buildings are
discoloured, and shop and on other fronts are streaked down
where the rain conies with marks, and the painting is dis-
coloured with particles of soot. I have no doubt the smoke
nuisance is a very great nuisance, and as you have got
powers under the act recently passed, you will exercise them.
With respect to what another member said, I may merely
observe, I think he referred to the minute which I read, not
to anything of mine. It was the remark in the minute of
the general board of health which I read to you, that the
unhealthiness had respect to a zymotic class of diseases, as
was stated, and more especially with reference to cholera.
Mr; DOVER : With reference to the subject of privies and
water closets, lam of opinion, in cottages whieji I am now
speaking of, if you put water closets there, they will be per-
fectly useless. They would get stopped by all sorts of
things being thrown into them. But there is another diffi-
culty. Where would You get water ? You made allusion to
a cheap construction of water closet, but that cheap con-
struction will not supply you with a sufficient quantity of
water, or a receptacle for water to wash the soil down. From
my observation I am of opinion that a great deal of nuisance
connected with privies may be abated by this means .—by
keeping water out of the ash-pit, and by throwing a quan-
tity of ashes on the soil. I find in places where that has
been done, when water has been kept out of the ash-pit
and where ashes have been thrown over the soil there was
little or no smell arising. I think if we could observe a
plan of that kind, and get people into the way of using it,
it would be found greatly to reduce the evil.
' Mr. LEE said that ashes acted chemically on soil to a certain
extent; and to that extent, no doubt, had a tendency to
disinfect the soil. But then it would be required to have the
ash-pit always tolerably full.
Mr. DovER remarked that the ash pit should be covered,
and that there should be an opening in the side.
Mr. LEE : Where you get water you get an agent which
creates oleaginous gases which are most injurious to health.
If you get a covering you keep in the foal smells, and it
comes up the seat in a more condensed state when a person
goes in ; and is more likely to be prejudicial. Parties might
abuse those closets, but apparatus could be made so that it
could not be injured. They might make dirty work of it,
but with better arrangements, the habits of the people them-
selves would undoubtedly improve ; and this had been found
to be the case everywhere where closets had been tried. Iu
Field- lane, St. Giles's, of which many of the committee may
have heard, closets were introduced as an experiment,with the
lowest class of people, those wild Irish, who were as bad
there as in Liverpool ; and for a long time there was an ob-
struction in the way, and the closets, were very much abused ;
but 1 am informed the habits of the people have so much
improved for many months, there has been only twice occa-
sion to pay. any attention to them at all. As to the water,
it was a mistake that ar y large quantity of water is required
for a closet, because, if the closet is properly conducted, as
the water goes off with a flash, from two quarts to a gallon
would suffice after One person had used it. If there were
two houses to one, there would not be more than from 10 to
12 persons using it in a day ; so that even if a little more
was wasted, the, e would not be more water consumed for the
closet than was ordinarily provided as a day's supply for ono
individual. 'With an ordinary size of closet, from 12 to 20
gallons per day would be the utmost limit of water consumed.
This had been one of those fallacies perpetuated throughout
the country, so that water companies might lay on a large
charge for water which had no reference to the quantity
consumed. _ _

vv
The MEDICAL OFFICER said that although the mortality
might be high, it was much less than the average of the past
six years. On receiving the minute from the general board
he conceived that the Inspector was to come down to inquire
into the " unusually high rate of mortality in Liverpool,"
and he accordingly wrote to the Board stating that
they were in error in supposing that the mortality here was
unusually high. He said in that communication,
as in his official reports, that owing to the severity of
the weather the mortality from long diseases was exceed-
ingly high, and that excluding those deaths'the mortality
of Liverpool throughout the present year had been much
lower than the average of deaths for the past six years.
Mr. HODSON : But we want to know what has been the
mortality for the past six months ?
The MEDICAL OFFICER : I don't know of any six months
during which the mortality has been so low as for the past
six months.

Mr. GODFREY observed that it would seem from the
minute that the general board conceived Liverpool was now
in a very unhealthy state.
Mr. M'Nicom, observed that the minute had reference to
zymotic diseases, and that the inspector's visit was for the
purpose of gleaning information, in case the cholera should
break out next year.
The MEDICAL OFFICER : That was not the meaning of
the letter of the board of health to me ; it spoke of the annual
mortality in Liverpool at the present moment.
Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE : It was stated in the Lon-
don papers by a misprint that eighteen persons had died
here of cholera in one day, whereas it should have been a
week.
Mr. M‘Nicom, : But the mortality here may be still very
high, though not so high as in past years.
The MEDICAL OFFICER : Last year the mortality of Liver-
pool was below that of Manchestt r.
Mr. LEE : Manchester being near the highest in Eng-
land, the meaning of the words " excessively high" has
reference to the kingdom at large. There can be no doubt,
without the slightest wish or intention to depreciate aught
that this committee has done—that the mortality of Liver-
pool is excessively high, as compared with the average of
the whole kingdom. Compare it with London, for instance.
Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE : It is scarcely fair to com-
pare it with A large village or town in the heart of the coun-
try, but compare it with a sea-port similarly situated as it is
compare it with Glasgow.
Mr. LEE : I do not knew what is the average mortality
of Glasgow, as the system of registration does not extend to
it. That there is an excessive rate of mortality here cannot
be denied, but it must be due to some causes. These causes
may be preventable, or they may not, but still it is a matter
of inquiry, whether or not they are preventable, and to what
extent. At the same time, I thought I had said to the com-
mittee what would be sufficient to satisfy them that my
mission has solely reference to the epidemic districts, and
not any interference whatever with the local matters of
Liverpool.
Mr. HODSON : There is one part of Mr. Lee's statement
to which I must demur, and I am very anxious, on behalf
of Liverpool, that it should not go to the world uncontra-
dieted. Now, I must demur to Mr. Lee's statement as to
the excessive mortality of Liverpool, and safely put it in
comparison with either Bristol, Manchester, Bolton, Preston,
or any other large town similarly situate to it. It may bo
perfectly true that Liverpool is excessively high compared
with the agricultural districts ; but I do say that it may be
safely compared with any of the large towns which I have
mentioned. Being a medical man myself, I have taken
some trouble for the last four years, since I became a mem-
ber of this committee, to collect, from various sources, the
average rate of mortality in different towns. I found that
some years ago Liverpool was a very unhealthy town, but it
has so greatly improved, that it will bear comnarison with
any large town in England, not excepting London.
Mr. GLADSTONE : There is one matter that must be al-
ways taken into account, and that is the great amount of
our population connected with vessels.
Mr. BECKWITH : We had no case of cholera here until
the German emigrants brought it to us.
Mr. LEE : I have not the slightest doubt that Liverpool
is in a much more healthy state from its sanitary measures

THE NORTHERN DAILY TIMES.