The Express.
London, England, 1861-02-20 00:00:00

(Stamped, ld. Additional.) [TWOPENCE.

of that inundation would be au extemiun of those habits of
bribery and corruption which for some year had happily
been confined to towns. Hon. members might not, per
hap, be aware that not one of the last 57 owes of bribery
established before committees of the house had occurred in
a county. (Hear, hear.) If the bill should go into com-
mittee it was his intention to move that it be an instruction
to that committee to deal with the question of bribery
with a view, as far as legislation was possible, to prevent
the introduction of that system of bribery and corruption
into counties from which they had hitherto been exempt.

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir,—There are two things Ido
not mean to do. The first is, not to oppose the motion of
mrhon. friend ; and the next is, not to argue the subject of
which his bill treats. I will not oppose the introduction of
the bill,ibecause it would be discourteous to ley lion. friend,
and in the second place, might expose me to the imputation
of a change of opinion on a general subject which I have ;
not undergone. I will not enter into • discussion of the
matter to which the bill relates, for the seine reason for
which her Majesty's government have declined in the pre-
sent session not to propose a measure of reform to the
house—that is to say, I should be renewing those discussions
which occupied so much of the time of the house last year, and
-vitt& we did not think it expedient to call upon the ;
house to go into again in the present seuion. For these a
reason, therefore I shell nut be able to vote with the lion,
member for Devizes, because the inimediate effeo. of carry- ;
ing hi. amendment :rould be to negative the motion of my ;
hon. friend for leave to bring in the bill, and because the
adoption of that amendment would be to anticipate the I
discussion which properly belongs to the committee upon
the bill whenever the bill shell go into committee, and •
therefore it would be a premature expression of opinion, ;
which ought to be reserved one way or the other by MOW.
hers of this house for the period at which it would be most
to discs= the question. (Hear, hear.) Now my
Immrerfriend the member for Norwich intimated that he
belonged to a small remnantd the liberal party; and much
grief that optuiou it seemed, inspired in his mind. (Laughter.)
Now I shall endeavour to consols my hon. friend on that a
point, by telling him that which I think on further refine- a
tion must lead him to see that so far from being a deserted
remnant of the liberal party, he and those who agree with
him ought rather to congratulate themselves on Boding
that they are now the centre of the liberal party, and that
all sides of the house have come round more or lees to tho
principle which we used to call liberal, and which could
not be expected to be supported by all aides of the house
at former periods. (Laughter.) Why, fib, when we have
seen both parties alternately bringing in a bill the principle
of which was to enlarge the constituency of the
country, and when we compare that with the period
which we all recollect, when the leaders and heeds of the
government and that there should be no reform—surely
when we reflect upon that, and also recollect the great num-
ber of liberal measures which have been carried by the
common consent of all parties in this house, my hon. friend,
instead of lamenting that he and his friends have been
sated, ought rather to congratulate himself on the great
progress which the liberal party have made in bringing
round, more or less, to their opinions all those who have
hitherto entertained opposite views. (Cheers.) I regret,
however, that my hon. friend who mule the motion, and
that my hon. friend the member for Leeds, who has
announced another motion of the same sort—l regret that
they should have thought it their duty to propose those
motions in the present session of parliament. I regret is
for the same mums which have been stated by her Ma.
• Piety's government. If my hon. friends thought it nixes-
ray to make those motions for the purpose of showing that
they had not altered their opinions, of recording that they
psnevered in maintaining the opinions and sentiments
wh y ich the expressed on former occasions, that might be •
very natural motive ; but surely it was not necessary, be-
cause nobody could suspect that either of my two hon.
friends, or these likely to agree with them in regard to the
bill, had in any degree altered or changed their opinions.
(Hear, hear.) Bat if they expected that these questions
should be tally discussed in this house, and come to a final
and successful issue, I think the experience of the last
session of parliament has been in some degree thrown away
upon them. (Laughter.) They are proposing to us piece-
meal every measure which was discussed as an entirety in
the last session of parliament, minus indeed the proposal
to bender seats ; but I have no doubt that omission will
be very soon supplied, and that at no distant period they
will give the third portion of the government bill of last
year. Now, the government bill of last year failed, as it
appeared to me from two causes. The first cause was con.
meted with tine; the second was connected with the
substance of the measure. The government felt it
their duty—a duty arising out of former opinions
end pledges given—to propose at the earliest moment a
measure enlarging the suffrage. They redeemed tb it pledge,
and it remained with the house to determine whether that
bill should be accepted or not. But that house had been
very reseetly elected, and it was impossible that members
should not have fresh in their recollection all the incon-
veniences of a general election. (Laughter.) It was also
not likely that their constituencies should not have in
their recollection all that disturbance of private and mer-
cantile transactions which necessarily accompany a general
election. (Hear, hear.) It must not, therefore, be supposed
that either the members of the house or their constituencies
should for their own sake wish for the recurrence of a
general election, and yet it was obvious that a measure of
that comprehensive character, if carried, must at a very
short subsequent period entail a fresh general election. Ido
notmean to saythat that feelingwould have been paramount,
and prevented the house from accepting • measure which
in itself was agreeable to their opinions, but it was mani-
fest, from the lengthened discussions which took place last
year, that the measure was not altogether to the taste of
the majority of the house. (Hear, hear.) Some thought
it went too far, others contended that it 'did not go far
enough ; but whether too great or too little, it was still
quite clear flint the measure was not destined to
receive the acceptance of the house in the course
of bat session. Well, has the time much altered 1'
A very few months have elapsed since the bill was with-
drawn, and Ido not think it is reasonable to believe that
the objection in point of time can have very much altered
in that interval. Then, does the objection in point of sub-
stance vary very much? My hon. friend has taken care that
the objection stall not vary, became ha brings in • measure
which, so for as it goes, in identical with that which the
house was not very recently, if not last session, prepared to
accept. In a public document which we have all read this
morning, there is a renuirk which is not wholly
inapplicable to the present moment—namely, that
there is a time for action and • time for waiting.
Now, I would venture to icy that with regard to a question
of an organic change in the representation of the people, I
think the present session is a time for waiting, rather than
a time for action. (Hear, hear.) That is the opinion we
entertained, and I am sorry it is not entertained by my
hoc. friends. However, they have thought it right to bring
in their measures, and I am not going to oppose the intro-
duction of either of them. At the same time, as the govern-
ment have not thought it their duty to ask the house in
this session of parliament to undertake the question of
reform, and as I think myself, in accordance with what
appears to me to be the ?pinion of ninny members of the
house that a great and important measure of that kind is
one which ought to originate with the responsible govern-
ment—(cheers)—and ought not to be thrown loosely on the
house by private members, taking their chance of Wednes-
days, it may be—(a laugh)—differing, I say, also most '
strongly from my hoe. friend the member for Norwich in
opinion, banana as I do not think a plan for altering the
practical working of the constitution of the country ought
to be referred to • select committee upstairs—(hear, hear)
believing that those measures which are of great impor-
tance, and the importance of which is admitted by those who
oppose them as well as by those who propose them—believ-
ing, I repeat, that such measures for a change in the repro-
'mutation of the nation ought to originate with the responsible
government, and should not be the work of any private in-
dividuals—(hear, hear)—l certainly do regret that my
hon. friends have taken ea themselves in the present session
to do that duty which properly belongs to the responsible
ministers of the crown. (Hear, hear.) But that being the
case, I shall not, as I said before, be guilty of the dis-
courtesy of asking the house, even if I could succeed in in-
ducing them to do so,to refuse permission to bring in thebill ;
but I feel bound to say that they must not expect from her
Majesty's government three courtesies which were often
asked, "Give us a day, and don't throw us
on Wednesdays, as time is passing and difficulties
arise to our proceeding with the bill." (Hear.) I am
ccestrabed to sal that I shall object to those appeals, and
when my hon. friends have brought in their bills—and I
trust they will be allowed to do so—they must take upon
themselves all the responsibility with regard to the future
progress of those bills, and must leave the government
free to deal with them in the manner which they consider
most °ambient with their duty. This, however, I must
decidedly my, that we cannot afford my hon. friends any
assistance by giving up government days to them for the
further progress of their measures. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—From the circumstances under which

this bill is introduced to our notice, and after the tempe-
rate and very sensible remarks of the noble lord,
especially in reference to the future conduct of the
t with respect to the measure, ommidering that
govern
in
of the house does not feel himself altogether
justified in7opposing the introduction ofithat bill, I certainly,
independent of all other considerations, think that the
hon. member for Surrey deserves all the courtesy in our
power, and I am therefore not at all prepared to oppose its
introduction. Neither should I have risen had not the hon.
gentleman opposite in his remarks fallen, as it appears to
me, into a very great error with regard to the measure for
which I wee responsible eo far as its introduction
to this house was concerned. The honourable gen-
tleman he. claimed as as one who adopted the
FM-41e of the measure which he now proposes,
but he is quite under a mistake. He was himself one of the
party did not asset to the second reading of the bill
t m bJ the government of Lord Derby ; and, there-
fore, no doubt, is ecinseqnsime of the precipitate action 00
that occasion, ke appears to be so ill acquainted with its
details. (Laughter.) The bill I introduced did not adopt
the principle of the ham gentleman. It proposed emtwwf'

a 10/. occupation suffers,e for counties, but the primary
suffrage for counties wu a 10/. occupation arising from
land, which was • very important distinction from that
proposed by the hoe. gentleman, and which, if I bad been
permitted to go into committee upon the bill, I should have
been able to have shown would have produced very different
consequences from those anticipated of the bill of the hon.
gentleman by my boa. friend the member for Norfalk.
(Hear, bear.) The bill of Lord Derby also included, ea a
seundery suffrage, a MX household occupation, but the
primary suffrage was a 101. occupation donne' from land.
But Ms this all? Besides that occupation franchise there
were ten other important county franchises introduced into
the bill, the tendency of which would have been—l do not
use the epithet in a party senile, but in a national sense—of
a highly conservative character. (Hear, hear.) There
was introduced the lodger franchise; a franchise arising
from the poesesaion of funded and personal property, and a
franchise founded in intelligence and education. Therefore
the hon. gentleman is not at all justified in the statement he
made, that the gentlemen on this side of the house have
adopted the principles which be so long advocated, and no
doubt with with great Lemur to himself and his con-
stituency, but with great disadvantage to the public time,
and which, if earned, would operate with great disad-
vantage to the public weal. (Hear, bear.) I myself, after
all the criticisms I have heard in the house, am every day
more strongly of opinion that if we are to deal with
measures which concern the reconstruction of parliament,
they really ought to be large and comprehensive
measures, and if we cannot pass such measures, the
only inference to be drawn is, that there is no
necessity for them. But when you are considering
a subject so important as the reconstruction of
.parlia.
meat, you regime all the responsibility of the mummy
to deal with it, and you require all that information and all
• that general hew of the various interests and multiplied
considerations, which necessarily offer themselves to your
attention. (Hear, hear.) Gentlemen who arrogate to
themselves the title of independent members—a title which
I trust we all, even when in office, have a fair claim to—
generally pursue • very one-aided course. A gentleman
takes up • fragment of • great subject, he becomes enamoured
with the results of his own meditations, he thinks the con-
clusions he has arrived at from the force of his own
thoughts are the only conclusions which can save the state,
and he is too eager to press these on the consideration of
parliament, without reference to the interests which
their adoption might injure, but which ought
to be duly considered in any scheme which
attempts to do justice to the whole country.
Under these circumstances I have the strongest objection
to the measure introduced by the hon. gentleman. I think
it would have the most injurious effects. I think it would
give power to many persons in this country who are not
fairly connected with the predominant property or the
predominant industry of the country. I think also that
the objections urged with singular ability by my hoe. Mend
the member for Warwickshire are entitled to the attention
of the house ; but this is not the occasion on which d care to
enter into any discussion upon • measure on which, notwith-
standing the rigid programme of the minister as to public
buianeu, we shall probably have an opportunity to speak
spin. Nor should I descant upon this part of the subject
if it were not for the misapprehension of the hon.
gentleman as to the conduct of the late government upon
this matter. I very much regret, totally irrespective of my
objections to the isolated measure •, totally irrespective
of my objections that we should not deal with
this subject except in a comprehensive manner
totally independent of my belief that in the present temper
of thecountry the subject cannot be dealt with in • compre-
hensive manner, and giving credit to the government that
in the course they are taking they are not actuated by those
mean motives imputed to them by their particular friends,
but that they are actuated by motives which gentlemen in
their position are likely to be swayed by
in dealing with the motion of the hon. gentleman, I must
repeat my deep regret that under the circumstances
there appears to be a proepect of • waste of that
valuable and limited portion of time allotted to
members of this house who are not connected
with the government. For myself I have no Idea
of what can be the object of the hon. gentleman opposite
attempting this reform of the House of Commons by mea-
sures of retail. The government have announced that trans-
action to be be and their powers of enterprise and capital.
What probability of success, then, awaits those huck-
sters—in laugh)—who come forward to satisfy the
nation, when the great association have announced their
inability to do so? (Laughter.) Their object cannot be to
obtain popularity with the country. I believe upon the
whole no subject is so unpopular in England at this
moment as parliamentary reform. (Renewed laughter.)
Is it to obtain popularity in the bowie! I say nothing of
my friends whom I see around me, who during the
campaign of last year gave the government every oppor
Many to carry the bill. But I can say some.
thing for the feelings of hon. gentlemen opposite
as month after month I watched the countenances of
gentlemen representing capital cities, their teeth chattering
in their heads as the order of the day was read, their visages
presenting a pallid hue which could not be concealed from
the commonest observer, whilst in the lobby they were
shaking in their shoes at the intended invasion of • 61.
franchise. These are facts which convince me that the hon.
gentleman, his cometss and colleagues, will obtain no popu.
linty in this beau by puritan the course he has taken to-
night. Then what is as object of the hon. gentleman and Iris
supporters? Is it that although they are taking a course
unpopular in the country and odious to their immediate
friends, they are anxious to show they are consistent—
that they have not clanged their minds, and that although
changes may have occurred in other gunnery, they are still
the same as when they stood upon the hustings. (Laughter
and cheers.) If that be their object they can attain it
without wasting the time of parliament, and without in-
juring the cause of parliamentary reform. They can
hold public meetings—Willis's Rooms may be onoe more
engaged—(a laugh)—and although no compact need be en-
tered into they can make a public demonstration to prove
to the country that their opinions are perfectly unchanged,
and that when they have the opportunity they will enforce
them. (Cheers and laughter.) I hope they will consider
the practicability and the feasibility of such a scheme, as on
Wednesdays, the only days on which the noble lord proposes
to take those measures, we have a prospect of some very
important legislation. I look forward with dread to a re-
politica of the scenes of last year, especially on the subject
of the bill introduced this evening. (Hear, hear.) In the
Howe of Commons, and especially afters gentleman has
sat in it for many years, a genial feeling has sprung up an
both sides of the house, arising out of reciprocal respect and
regard, that even hon. gentlemen opposite should not again
suffer by the repetition of such scenes. Why, then, is this
alluring prospect again held out which has tired even the
temper of the member for the capital of `.Scotland—(a laugh)
—that we are to be subjected to this annoyance, and the
public time is still to be wasted. As we have to-night per.
formed an act of courtesy to both the bon. gentlemen who
have introduced their bills, I could really wish that some
private arrangement might be made by which we should bear
no more of them. (A Laugh.) We try to follow the spirit
of the age. The spirit of the age is to offer gentlemen
testimonials —(lirogliter)—and I should be most happy to
join with those gentlemen opposite in some mark of our re-
spect and esteem if they will adopt this course. (Laughter.)
Mr. D. GRIFFITH mid he would withdraw her amend.
ment, and introduce it again when the bill was iu
committee.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
PROBATE AND REAL PROPERTY.
Mr. WILLIAMS moved that in the opinion of this hones
reel property should be made to pay the same probate duty
as that now payable on personal property.
Mr. HADFIELD waded the motion.
The question having been put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
neither then nor at any future time could he
accede to the proposal of his bon. friend. He
thought that prepaid unwarranted by justice, and
were it warranted by justice so surrounded by
difficulties as to be unavailable as a fiscal expedient. Even
if the balance between settled and unsettled property were
uneven he felt convinced that some means other than this
must be sought for its edjostraent. He must meet the mo-
tion with • direct negative.
The house divided—
Ayes
Noes
The motion was consequently lost
INCOME AND PROPERTY TAX.
Mr. HUBBARD moved for a select committee to inquire
into the present mode of assessing and collecting the income
and property tax, and whether any mode of levying
the same, so as to render the tax mon) equitable,
could be adopted. In adverting to the objectionable
features of the tax, he dwelt upon its inequality
more than upoa its inquisitorial character, which,
km thought, had been exaggerated. Premising that
an equitable tax was that which taxed a man according to
his means, he assumed that there were but two classes or
categories of incomes that should be subjected to the tax
namely, the result of investments of capital, and salaries
and rodustrial incomes, the fruit of personal la-
bour, and therefore of • precarious nature. He
then ezamhied in detail the different descriptions
of property included in the various schedules,
and.periled the abatements be proposed to make
in the assessment of the tag upon certain claims of pro-
perty, deducting one-third in industrial and preaselpug
In-
comes. He noticed the immense amount of fiend in the
evasion of the tax, which he attributed in a great degree to
its inequality, persons smarting under the injustice of the
"j„..,puriag to do justice to themes in their own
way. He ,ad that there would bbla lose of revenue
by the adoption of his proposal, but his Sum conviction wag
that, the measure being one of justice, the diminution seder
Schedule D would be less than might be anticipated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said thp
proposal for a committee of inquiry into the subject, and
more especially the particular nature of the plan submitted
by Mr. Hubbard, compelled him to object to his motion.
He proposed that • separate rate of tax @honk' be laid on
the different schedules, and the house could not vote for the

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