The Express.
London, England, 1861-02-15 00:00:00

(Stamped, id. Additional.) [TWOPENCE.

decision he proposed to introduce • chief judge. Was that
chief judge to be • superior judge to the Lords
Justioes ! That he could not be. Was he to be
• man of superior attsinments? That he could
not be. Therefore he (Mr. Roebuck) said this mea-
sure would be an introduction of expense, and would
not lead to conformity of decisions. There was •
muse of expense in the Court of Bankruptcy which the
boa. and learned gentleman had not noticed, namely, the
fees which now existed, and which did not go to any of the
officers of the court, but were paid into a find of the
court. The difference between the Courts of Bankruptcy
sad Insolvency was not touched by this bill. Therefore he
said all the Attorney-General did by this bill was to alter
the law, and alteration wu not reform. Alteration of itself
was • mischief. and unless some advantage was shown to re-
sult from it such mischief ought not to be attempted.

Mr. MOFFATT highly lauded the we and considers-
tion which had been bestowed on the bill

Mr. BOVILL admitted that there wee much good in the
bill ; but many of its provisions were so mischievous, and
its conditions so stringent, th►t is the course of a year the
complaints against the law would be yet greater than 4
present.
Kr. J. C. EIVART, as a commercial man, supported
the bal.

Mr. LYSLEY complained of the legal interferences
which the bill would cause, and of the introduction of
forensic principle. in matters of mere administration.
Mr. HADFIELD warmly approved of the bill.
The ATTORNEY-GENF.RAL had heard with at-
tention the remarks of the hon. and learned
member for Guildford, and had felt surprised at
his ability to make so long • speech on so small
a awe. The bon. and learned gentleman seemed not
to know that the number of ofitcial sasignees would be re-
ducal by the bill, and that the registrars would have in-
ports's& duties to perform in the administration of justice
under it. The hoe. and learned member for Sheffield had
talked of the bill being an attorney's bill. Did the hon.
and learned gentleman forget that the bill had received the
support of the mercantile interests of the kingdom, and
from none a warmer support than that which it had re-
ceived from the constituents of the hon. and learned mem-
ber t In order to effect as satisfactory a remedy as possible
be had adopted every precaution to eusure the property of
the debtor being placed under the control and disposition
el the creditors. Besides simplification of procedure as to
the property of the debtor, the most effective control was
given to the creditors over it, and it would now be almost
impossible to misappropriate it, or to delay divid-
ing it among the creditors. He frankly admitted
that there might be many points on which they might differ
in opinion when they came to the discussion of the clauses.
When they came to discuss them he should be happy to
hear the opinion of his hon. and learned friend opposite and
of any other member, but at present he trusted they would
now permit the bill to be read • second time.
The bill was read • second tin" and was ordered to
be committed on Monday nest.

be teken on the subject. Nevertheless, I shall be fully
p time com to efend Beier-
LePrhed when the roper d
that has been made, and shall bes,e surprised ifthe the de-
! liberate judgment of the house does not confirm it. The
population of the parish of Chelsea, according to the last
census—awl there has been a considerable increase since—
was 56,538 ; and the population of the parish of Kensing-
ton, which has also much increased, and where a if=
number of large sod excellent houses have
erected, was 44,063. Therefore, the united parishes
of Chelsea and Kensington Lad at the bat
census a population exceeding 100,000, which at this
time is probably much larger. The fact can be ascer-
tained in the mouth of April next, inasmuch as the census
will be takes in that month. Persons may say, "It is
true that Chelsea and Kensington together forma popula-
tion larger than any other uurepresented town, but London
mast be taken as a whole, and we must look at the total
numbetof members in the metropolitan'tlistrieta,aud,looking
at the number of members, we say it is sufficiently Tepee-
muted." Well, if that language be resorted to, I wish to
cell attention to whet is the present population of London,
because that is an element in this question. I have ob-
tained from the Registrar-General an estimate of the po-
pulation of London at the present time, which estimate
IS made upon • fair principle, namely, by supposing that
the increase in the last ten years is in the same proportion
as that of the preceding ten years, and according to that
estimate the population of London at the present time is
2,869,000 perms. Perhaps the house might wish to know
what is the comparative population of Scotland. Ac-
cording to the last census the of Scotland was
2.862,000,which is ratherlegathan tate population of London.
Therefore I think the house will agree with me that,
whether you look at the population of those two parishes
standing alone, or whether you take them in connexion
with this enormous metropolis, it is difficult to den y their
claims to have ono representative in this house. With re-
gard to the other seat, what I propose to do is to give it to
the town of Birkenhead. Birkenhead is a oommercial town.
It is different in character from the three other commercial
community to which I propose to amigo members. It is
not a manufacturing tows, and therefore does not resemble
is character the West Riding and South Lanrsahire, nor on
the other hand is it a metropolitan borough resembling
Kensington and Chelsea. It is a commercial place. It is
• place which has increased largely in population
during the last ten years. The population at
the last census was 24,800, but it has consider-
ably increased since that time, rind it is now the
most populous of the unrepresented towns. Well, now, it
may be said perhaps by some persons who take a general
view of this subject, that if you disfranchise two such
boroughs as Sudbury and St. Altana, you ought to assign
the vacant nate to other boroughs of • somewhat similar
character, or at any rate to the four largest unrepresented
boroughs. If that principle of representation be adopted
the four boroughs selected would be as follows:
Birkenhead, which bee 24,000 inhabitants; Staleybridge,
which has 20,000 ; Burnley, which has 20,000 ; and Graves-
end, which has 16,000. I cannot but think that the selec-
tion which I have submitted to the house is, on the whole,
preferable to that. (Hear, hear.) Such is the distribution
of seats which, after full deliberation, the governmenthave
decided to submit to the house, and which is confined in
the bill that I now oak permission to lay on the table. I will
eXuateat that I trust the housewill cousidertbisa (reused
le proposal. Ido not lay claim to any extraordi-
nary affection for it, nor do I deny that some other pro-
posal may be laid before the house which may be deserving
of their attention ; but I say with confidence that it is •
fair sal reasonable plan, deserving the consideration of the
house ; and I trust that, having received that considera-
tion, it will in the course of the present session receive the
approbation of a large majority of the house.
Mr. BENTINCK maid he could not refrain from entering
his protest Wind the scheme which the right hon. baronet
had propounded. Having listened to the speech atten-
tively, he was quite at a loss to understand on what prin-
ciple the proposal was based. If it were based on figures.
the right lion. baronet had totally lost sight of the justice
of the ease. Dealing with the question as one of figures,
be (Mr. Bentinek) would undertake to show that every seat
that became disposable, up to 130 or 140 seats Co all,
must in justice be given to the rural counties of England.
(Laughter.) Hon. gentlemen might laugh, but he repeated
what he bad said. He must remind the right hon. baronet
who bad so ably managed the financial affairs of this
country, that representation and taxation should go toge-
ther, and that when they were considering a question like
this they ought to consider what class of the community
paid the hest amount of taxation. On that ground and
as a matter of abstract justice these seats and. a great many
more which be hoped would become vacant ought to be
given to the rural comities. As regarded the proposal to
add to the number of metropolitan boroughs, he trusted
that when the proper time arrived for discussing the qua'-
, ties he should be able to show that that proposal ought not
to be adopted. All be would do at present was to enter
hie protest against any tampering with the rights of
the rural districts of this country, which so many
who discussed the question of the representation
were continually ignoring. From what such persons
said any one might imagine that this country consisted of
nothing but large towns and railways, that there was no
such thing as the country, and that those wbo constituted
the larger portion of the population nand contributed moat
to the revenue did not exist. They heard of nothing but
the comparative claims of different boroughs. He should
be extremely sorry if the boroughs and the great
commercial emporiums of the country had not their
full share in the representation ; but he felt bound to resist
the attempts of the boroughs to establish a monopoly. He
trusted that when this bill again came on for discussion be
should be enabled to prove that it was not based either on
figures or on justice.
Mr. STIRLING wished to take that opportunity of
urging the claims of the universities of Scotland to be re-
presented in that house. Scotland was the only country of
the three kingdoms that did not send representatives there.
England had four university members, Ireland had two,
Scotland bad none. A few years since it might have been
urged as an objection to such a claim that the universities
of Scotland were mere seminaries, and that those who
were educated in them had no connection with
them in after-life. The Scotch Universities Act, passed
three years ago, had removed that objection, and antler the
operation of that act the universities bad now a very lens
'onatithency—the number being constantly increasing. The
constituency at present was 3,340, while that of the Univer-
sity of Cambridge was 4,556 ; that of Oxford University
was 3,6Zi ; and that of Dublin, 1,780. Surely such • body
as that might fairly claim a representative in that house.
What was the problem which reasonable men
eodearoured to solve in the discussion upon re-
cementation which took place during the last session!
Was it not how intelligence without property might be en-
franchised and take its place beside that of property! What
he suggested would tend to the solution of that problem ;
it would enfranchise a great Dumber of young men of intel-
ligence who would value the right conferred upon them, and
be believed makes good use of it, although they might not
possess • property qualification. He hoped the government
would grant a sufficient time to allow the sentiments of
Scotland to be expressed upon this important matter.
Mr. MAGUIRE was aniseed at the proposition which
the right boa. gentleman had made, for he remembered
that in the unhappy Reform Bill of last year a proposal was
made, which he thought a fair one, of giving two of the
four seats row proposed to be disfranchised to Ireland, and
two to Scotland. He recognised the claim of Scotland, and
should be prepared to support it. The division as to Ire-
land was to have been one additional member to Dublin
and are to the county of Cork. No change bad taken
place in the population of Dublin or Cork since last yeti to
justify the government in withholding the proposal the
made last year. He thought the metropolis well enough
represented. Its members were the mist active, most
persevering in the house, anti had a fair share of eloquence
and wisdom. (A laugh.) The cup hail been held to the
lips of Ireland, sod he wished for some explanation why
the government had dashed it down. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. AYRTON should have been content to have allowed
this miserable abortion of • bill to have fallen still-born
without saying a word but for an observation of the hon.
member for Norfolk. After the discussion which bad
taken place, he believed they would get from hon. gentle-
men opposite what had been denied to them by the 80-culled
friends of reform. He was delighted to hear the hon. mem-
ber for Norfolk admit that taxation and representation went
together. When be talked of the adult million, who lived
in counties beyond the boroughs, where, he would ask, was
the committee that bad ever proposed to give them the
right of representation? He was Idea to hear the
hon. member admit that if justice were done in the distribu-
tion of seats, at least one hundred seats would have
to be given to counties at the expense of boroughs.
At present the right of repremotatioe in the
counties was vested in two or three thousande, while
the number of adult melee might be counted by hun-
dreds of thousands. He would be the last person to deny
the right of representation to counties. But whet conser-
vative had ever proposed to give counties that right? IL
that principle were established, the hoe. momberfor Nor.
folk would be able to overthrow any kind of political is.
trigues. (Hear.) Had the conservative government brought
in a bill on the principle referred to by the hon. member for
Norfolk, they would have immortalised themselves—they
would have received the support of • large majority of the
house and of the nation, and would have come triumphantly
out of the struggle. It was no doubt gratifying to the me-
tropolitan members to be told that they were so efficient,
but he disliked to he improved out of his own estate. (A
laugh.) Ile did not think they were so efficient
as supposed. At all events, they had not
that power of numbers which unfortunately,
whenever a question came before them, prevailed more than
any amount of eloquence. He did not admit the doctrine
of numbers alone as a basis of representation, and should
regret to see • minister proposing • measure on that ground.
If that doctrine were to_prendl, all the four members in
question ought to go to Ireland. The proportion of mem-
bers between the two cations was settled on definite prin•
ciples at the time of the Union by 500 for England to 110
for Ireland. The parishes to which it was proposed to give
the members in question were the largest unenfranchised