The Express.
London, England, 1850-02-08 00:00:00

WOODS AND FORESTS.
•

Viscount DUNei.i assq;ticd wiehth; important bill for
the better asearenunt of the Woods and Forests would be
intraine.d. Was it pa•tble that the Chasesher of the Ex-
denser would be preps red to stake his statement on the in•
eratartiee of the Nasser* en Tuesday next ?
Mr. HATTER replied that the bill had oely been plat-
gra eoneeesee of the Wane of his right hon.
e:d
d, who, if be were able on the day 'mentioned, would
asks the gamiest.

ELECTORAL DISTRICTS (IRELAND).
Mr. TRENCH asked whether it was intended to intro-
duos an measure for is alterations of the electoral districts
and italic's, as •rdlag to the recommendation of the
bonadas y rommteei,wers.
Si, t, (,E}. said that several reports bad been received
la sescowsion from t►e boundary commissioners, which had
bees forwarded to the poor law board, with the suggestion
that they should lose no time in cocsidering the recommend-
ations thi y coat►ined, Considerable proposr had been
made by toe cornai:wiesers, and he was expecting a state-
ment from then which should, as soon as he resolved it, be
laid upon the table d the hens,.
COUNTT COURTS (iikt.) IN IRELAND.
Colonel DC NNE molted to ask whether it was the Istitu-
to= of her Majcity's government m introduce a bill to assi-
milate the law of the Irish Cesar, C•iurts to the law of
Engles t ; al.o, whether they intended to introduce the
fiscal withdrawn last session, or any sanitary nisteure this
sorsos, r r any ball for the regulation of medical charities to
Ireland.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE could not undertake to ray, la
reference to as Ant question, that it wu tho inten-
tion of tin government to introduce any sinews to
assiamitt the nasty wens of Inland, to those of Ragland.
POSTAL COMMUNICATION BETWEEN DUBLIN

AND CORY.
Col. CHATTERTON inquired of the &emery of the
Treasury that sups had Leen token to promote the postal
cosuavamstlua between Dublin sad Cork

Mr. HATTER had not yet been able to obtain any later-
maim as Ina sager.
THE MINT.
Mr. HI:HE wished to ask the noble lord at the hind of
the Treasury whether her ►lajesty•s government were pre-
to bring in say measure to put en end to the irregu-
larities eompiesnod of by the commi.sion which had sat
to 'again inn the condition of the Royal Mint.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that a bill dad been prepared and
would be shorly laid before the house.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.—Mr. HORS-
Id AN'S LETTER.

Mr. ROEBUCK said hould e w take this opportunity to
pet a qui bison to the noble lord appetite (Lord .7. Russel),
aad to the right hen. geatirman the Secretary of State for the
Nam D• unseat. Seeing the hon. member for Cieckermoutlt
(Mr. Hormuz) la hie place, he would beg_ also to
s)heit hie a nation to the question. lie (Mr. Roe-
black) hal no doubt it was within the knowledge
of the noble lord and of the right hon. treaders= that some
time Mace a letter signed by Edward Sauna& had appeared
in the pubic papen The mama why he wee about to put
the tie. stloa was that that letter concerned the honour of
the nose. and required that some explanatiom should be
made. That letter charged the noble lord opposite-he
'egged the noble lord's padon-with something like a fraud
upon the The charge wee not his-he faunl it in
the letter. The author of that letter charged the noble I,7rd
with having /riven a promise to an Wu. member of that
boast is, the fen of the house, and that he had then em-
ployed a• as instrument of fraud-ke (Mr. Roebuck)
email trice it no other term-the right hon. gentleman at his
left (Sir 0. Grey); and lest there should be any misunder-
standing on theAphjeet, he woull read the weeds of the hon.
gentleman the member Ice Cocker's nth. The hon. gentle-
men, after ref-min to the estrandinary nature of the men
sure :intraduced by the Secretary of State for, the Home
Department, proceeded to ay
But the sulorstuent proceetiMewere still more strange. Teter.ie views were sourrtit with the Naiad mad a reprwentstion
mule to Lira of the intend ler ebereeter of dr till ; Wad Its objec-
tionable Cam* haring ham piled out. It wee vied that It could
mot gene eateleeti m or he mepeed as • setlhmsee of the question,
haler trammed arm a anseamee whit the waneemasedmien d the
curium Lord J. lama tee& timeline the Asdibla:swot Can-
terbury, and rrplieel to ma by arraimmest es the following Tuesday
la the bus, His words were to this tank-the baying oonferred
with the archbishop, be was now resalyienept the 'lamina which
had Mee sunned to hem, md Iwlnt dome .o he
impeded the till to pan without further appositlem No.
Lim moat be a more oat deelarsties to us that
our sogge•tiont bad been adopted, and that the reminnewiticma of
the torwamt•ev would now be carried out in the bill. And when the
wale lord preceded to my that he should Invite the house to go late
eameuttee os the MY pre /sown, la order to Istrodeme there am es&
mesa. eat ...al he a few days' delay, me reedit, amerced. It was
tam the delay wa wry disegentse-11 wee ha Is the media; ow,
ay was sos promisor; and dartag. net Mat miss pit/, hat tb
three roste.edeet erl m heibess•ameleet bat* sits ieiy en the
oaf the drenemat. we bed now the atimidaeir
sam
bls marines Oat SIR be Inks ma a slaps saes
e fie prate Mama Midi,. elided IF-end tee
the showed re mare age te be het The nee went lees
commattt.' /informs me IN /di I it ram late at *M. mg the boar
impehest. The .I=.oellest orem meted Ime disk. The
Nome Secrete/I le Ids emssiegnasse-Mie some pa. ere
after anther, Gem the diary* me bard • ward-sad sb some
tiled to be
ts. It woe • rase er ammo Met theorem the amemmt.
meats worth the prime Wader had maned inn be latrodused
trucommittee. 1 Medi me some Mee dreamt id my eyeaim • varlet =DM/. Mt he shwa Ned win bat, as,:g
him ur euientatiag me est or mineedmente Ar another o
Wen lased. le the bralllllllll was
t. The
as tuned
Wawa usually is. at Was hit pot t. The amendment
were repurted to the Orsaltar, erl tle m he repeated;
aid, thumb .me rip am mast be hat In the ripetstiopu
wo le* the base whit dr aniatior that at last asia elep
W hem arrayed is She Snag med il=ticautek d
Para ' reform end that the day. of Co.
mbar, la it. them siembirmee and krespesdthe
its elope, were pot-
Tou may Yes teemilma hat I omen dante ti=
my mane whet Ur seedelsa bliasiesuL I isold hardly
soy yea Net • trigterri of tar mord tairddir s Ird been Ice.
tressed ; say,* wee Indeedblo le die sear, dais w bierfts
Sat bill "thaw% tbes idrid Ira er Per ritiolir-Ird ton
Pond to at to Mae it were late seahrmtly with the resemsamdr
tires of Yost temmlttert ee whom min it vet piennedly bweded.
Where, den, were the dip of pppperr which I maw the some
heal tot, as the ommiad to hie eallanno Pea=
you Minn tea the amen of that !Ma eat
permitlee.e leis If to make a sinew waiwient. but Its was that
the merman had sinew
is pining. whole Milk et lice close
eight arra ; the slungr a reassatreme or rate* • discoi-
dal at that Mte prated, ater d idling • veil 1411 Wed. who

Minty hopeless. Vbe gesernment=sualecenes shed Its purpose of
uhr=gyLarlesprossemed °Ms Oommtestes sow ne
•.
He did not went to sob that hos. member 'beam the UMW
was randy kis Immo, he (Mr. Rostmeith had to
doubt of It; bat it twataised chows elf a veep
gross avian, sad what to wanted kr Mk Sem wird
steps hod bees taken to midst the fours, sad the MOM
that thole sharps were lam Ines
Lord JOHN HUBBELL said—As the km. ph- llamas
has 110•11 down so the house fee the purpose of reading a
mew mashie, • personal Week upon my isharacter, I thank
it "would have bees obit, sad perhaps righi to the hid that
he aboold hare gins mme some nothes. (Hear.) This is the
more noosseszy bemire nays never read ewe word of the
yeedeetioa whisk he has Not rind. I was told that there
Will an attack apes me, sloped by the hon.. saember for
Cockiest/nth, sad I thought -if be had asp attack to asks
that he would have IMMO leeward with it is this house—
(hear, hear)—ead than I 'sold have bees ready to answer
Um upon any one of the pendentive. (Chests.) I have never
read the letter; I sertahtly have heard, la the sesta of soft.
variation, some single portions of the statement whisk the
has. member fee BheMeld has bat read. Now, sir, with se.
gard to the particular allegations, though I manse say that
my memory will enable me to answer as to esok partleular
transoodon, but, so far as I am able, I will state aorarately
what has boss my coarse arm this subiect ; and In stating
that swam, I hops I shall be allowed this aredit with the
banes. that in • matter Moscerning the composition of the
esolesiastienl eossmission—a matter very nook affecting the
state of the church, sad the welfare of that alwiteb—ot was
my object to obtain the unction of this and of the other
how of parliament, Isclading the distioguished prelates of
that church, to an semitone's so beneficial to the church.
The hon. gentleman, in the speech which he made the other
night, totally omitted ass part, and I think en essential pert,
in the history of this transaction. Is 1846, whoa I came tam
Wks, I communicated to some prima connected with the
subject and acquainted with the Ecclesiastical C..sainiesion,
that I certainly, although I had sever made any public
remarks upon the conduct of the ommaission, wasry ill.
satisfied with its composition es being too numerous, as va
Mb%
ill adapted to conduct business, and therefore requiring
amendment. In the beginning of the following mesion, that
M to say, in April 1847, 1 Introduced a bill, which
other provisions provided that there should be a
chairman of an estates committee, receiving a
and appointed by the crown ; that with sin others
appointed by the commissioner they should tors a committee
of estates, and that without his presence no business should
be conducted Another part of the bill introduced, pro-
vided that the offices of treasurer and secretory should be
separated, and should no longer be held by the same person.
No sooner had I introduced this bill than the Archbishop of
Canterbury gave me notice the bill would be opposed, and
still more strongly Dorm afterwards, that he believed it would
be opposed in the House of Lords by all she members of the
setcleeiss' deal sonunissies. Upon this course being takes, it
appeared to me that the bill, which had not attrated
mach public outwit's—which would have beast seat
op
late in the seldom of 1847—would not have
mush chasm of passing, and that it was very desirable,
that the public generally, but especially the house, should
be acquainted with the compositiou of the Ecclesiastical
Commission., and the mode of carrying the business.
My hon. frend, the member for Mahon (Mr. Denison),
had given notice that he intended to move for a select com-
mittee, sad I told the Archbishop of Canterbury, that, as
he had taken that course, I though; the only soups was to
give my meat to the proposition el the appointment of a
0. lest committee. It was aid that this was the suggestion
of the Archbishop of Canterbury. So far from that being
the cur, the Archbishop of Canterbury entirely disapproved
of the committee. I state them facts to show that it was not
from the appointment of this house generally that the pro-
possl to alter the composition of the eaclesiestieM commission
originated, bat it originated from my views as to the work-
lag of the comndasioa. The commission went ea; many
very able members of this house were appointed members of
the committee. They took a view still more strong than
that which I had taken, that it was necessary to appoint not
only one, but three paid commissioners, to *mist in the heal
nese of the estates committee. I come sow to the boa. gess
Henan, who suisl that he was about to bring forward some
question, that he appealed to ate as to the difierenos that
than was between the bill I had introduced and the report
of the committee, and he requested that the bill should be
a tend, and certainly, after hearing his suggestioa, I com-
municated with the Archbishop of Canterbury, and leerat
hie views on the subject. 1 1 kiwis. communicated with
other members of the committee, but more especiall with
my right hon. friend near me, the St cretazy of State for the
Home Deputniont, and I learnt from him, as well as from
others, that they did not put the same interpretation upon
the recommendation of the eommitum which the hon gent.
had pat. I agreed, however, that it was desirable to maks
some cossiderable alterations ia the bill as I bad
proposed it, and especially that several of the proposed
members of the committee should be omitted from
the bill. With regard to other points, I certainly did
not concur with the hoe. gentleman. Ido sot remember
sweetly what were the words that I used, but I could not
have said then that the suggestions of the hat. gentleman
had been considered, and we meant to make alterations. If
I said everything he proposed was to be adopted, I did not
use words implying that meanie. because I did net find that
the Archbishop of Canterbury took the same views. After
I had gone thus far, having furter communication with the
present Archbishop if Canterbury, I found that he had very
strong objections to the appointment of more than one
colanussioner, to be paid out of the revenues of
the church. He stated that he and the ec-
clesiastical conamissioaers whom he had consulted, the

bishops with whom he had conversed stated that one com-
missioner paid out of the revenue of the *bench would be
quite sufficient, and that any further payment would be
depriving the church of those moans cf plating spiritual
instructioa in larger parishes, which they considered was an
object of the commission. I did Lot entirely agree with that
view, but I certainly did propose to mike an anseadment in
the bill, which should, to a certain degree, consult the
opinions of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and s cable us to
paws the bill thro .gh the other house of parliament. In as
doing, if I may be allowed to state it, my motive was a
doable one. First, it we/ that I should be enabled
to make what I considered a very groat improvement which,
sines 1848 and 1847, I had contemplated in the construction
of the commission, by which there was an estates committee
having upon it a person responsible for the tisanes' of the
committee. In the second place, I thought that unless I
carried with me, to a certain extent, the consent of the pre-
late at the bead of the church, the ecclesiastical commission
bring kept up, and the estates committee being affirmed by
a majority in the lionssof Lords,towhich they had assented,
there never would be any harmony between the two bodies,
and the successful working of the committee wisuld be greatly
impeded. With these views, I framed, after many consultations
with my right hon. [need, some of the amendments.
They were done in the same way in which amendments
pro fermi are always iatroduced. The classes end the al.
terations are putin at once. The chairman does not put them
as a separate question, but the bill is printed for the informs-
tion of the house. Exactl the same curse was taken with
regard to this bill. It Is very likely that I ought to have
explained to the hon. member more in detail, after the
various communications that I have had, how far I varied
from the suggestions which had been made, and how far the
bill was to be altered in accordance with these sagginiuons ;
but as the bill was to be printed, us it was to
be brought under the consideration of the houses,
that did not appear to be necessary. The exprevions in
the letter show bitter hostility on his part, but ft appear to
ma to result from an inflated vanity, which seems to con-
sider that nothing is to be done without he knows of it.
(Hear, hear.) With respect, therefore, to the charge of
fraud, lam not going to resent it. I am not going to fall
Into • passion on the subject. I can only say that I entirely
despise any such charge, and that I need not refer to any
detailed proof that I cos propose to the house as to what took
place day by day, and what I proposed day by day. I
might refer to having been for many years a member of this
house, that I should be unworthy of the vanities
which I hold—(hear, hoar)--if I Wan capable, but 'should
not be capable, of a disgraceful fraud—(hear, hear)—kg the
purpose of deceiving the hon. gentleman about the eons-
position of the ecclesiastical commission. I certainly was
very desirous that, in a matter of such importance, in which
I thought reform should be made, the heads of the church,
and especially ere, for whom as • man, independently of his '
high position, I have the highest respect, I mesa the pre-
sent Archbishop et Canterbury, should be satisfied, anxious
as Le is for reform, and anxious as he is for
the spiritual welfare of the people, and that I should
in some degree conciliate his support and his goodwill
towards us all. These, then, have been the natives upon
which I have acted. Ido not know that I can give any fur-
ther explanation to the house. I do not think that it is
secemary for me to regent any further the charge which has
been made. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps the hon. gentleman
might, u I said at the beginning, have giien se amiss; bat,
upon the whole, I am very well satisfied with what has
liken place. (Haar, hear.)

Sir G. GREY said that be had read a few weeks ago the
letter Mood by the hoe. member tor Cpckernsouth. He
noticed the letter the other night, although he believed that
it was beneath notice. He did so under the apprehension that
the bon. gentleman might, in the count- of 11 =otitis, write
another letter to hie constituents, in which he we:mid taunt
him with having a knowledge of the contents of the letter,
and that he had shrunk from its notice on the House of
Commoss, when he had alluded to the subject. The charge
was brought in January last, in reference to transactions
which to.l place in the lows' of the last session of parlia-
ment, sia weeks before its termination. During all this
time the bon gentleman might have brought turward the
charge which he had treasured up fur his constituents, and
When the chirp we- made he might have asswered it. He
usteguivoisally denied the imputatiuu which the hoe.
gentleman had thought fit to cast upon him. In
all the communications he had had with regard
to the bill, he never adverted to the suggestions which he
received from the hon. member for Cocktratouth. He had
stated that it was his intention to commit the bill pro forma,
and he did It in the usual way in which every member does
it; he did not band in the amendments on slips of paper, but
the bill, as amended, we. pat into the hands of the Madman.
Tee Attorney Gnome' had taken the chair in the absence
of the chairman of eemmitten, and be proposed the bill ea
amended. Nothing was said 'phial receiving the bill in its
SW wiled shape. It was committed on the 14th June, and
ea the 20th July was reposed. The first intimation of the
charge of fraud we. not made till Dicembcr, 1649, or not
until January.
Mr HORSMAN claimed ersdit fur buldnesa in bringing
forward a charge which It so difilcult to substantiate. That
charge be now reiterated, avowed, and we. prepared to
prove, although he mood there uasupported by any party.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The bon. gentlrman bas said now,
and be said the other night, that be made a charge and re-
iterated it. He does not state wtat the charge is. Re
refers tea letter to hie constituents, and soya he reiterates h.

Went I think be should do, if he wiehm to preys • 'barge
M. ageless the right hem and myself, le to seem down
mig ruse Ms aad peeleeti
re. tets, f% .4 z, hioV:tig:
Tai.
Oahe erat ef M. ' fpasb)
The *Uwe wens then pekeseded with.
IXEMPTION or saw &P 01181181
WlOLlii"
- - 1104 Waal° . •
Mal. zra......11•111.5 for leave 8. *lag ,in • lin
to tempt Mew a este& vehm, sera heal
taxation. There was ne mideeir more generanthilaittad by
the pabliamMeletat ihmalhee the amilieltra of the boo ,
mate of the rignit 4 Oh many wee not what it ought
te be, aad.obehe 4 easenif ought to be tabs ley the govern,
meat sad the legalsemine larva their elerntiMA Ivor
one who - ponied the 'irelat reports preetated to pugs-
meet woad ,IS them paints. There was
• nett ileitimitit in the' sonar sad
home aeeeaemedalien If t • poorer °lama giving
rite a the pawl physical sufftriag, it win also • mune or
great igniesalhatien end injury to their character. Draining
we met demo madene ; the overcrowding of the dwellings
of the peer mat the mats evil. The high daty on timber
and bricks Mae MOW evil, and anasher rewriters
was gie .shyer temditioa of the law of settlemeat.
It we undleikeble that the effect of the law
4 pareehlal amtlemest operated a an Wee/meat
to prevent the residents of the peer vpoa the land.
It might he thought that ander the present ryotem the
bosses of the peer were is the great majority el Mottoes.
relieved from the rate. To mortal& in bow far that Immo-
sits mined with the feats be bad °Waited • retina from
fear to
Laserater, as beim, • aseaufactariaa toasty,
01••••••0 as partly amen'asturiag and partly errs.
oulioral, and floats and Suffolk as purely seri-
valuta tenatles. Prom them he would read, with
W permiesion of the Moues, the following summary
of fasts. He found, that la Lencsattire, oat of 840.000 houses
nearly 60,000 were wand from the rates. The whole
amcmat of property in value was sixoad-a-balf millions, of
width 47 was excused. So that the homes stewed
wen 2-16 the la amber, and I.lBth ia value. Is Gieneemsa
oat of 67,000 bosses, 14,876 wens sneered, tad of value ill
the amount of 1,800,0001. about 36,0001. was excused, being
about 1.20 th Ia valise. In Suffolk sad Heats, which gays
nearly uniform results, the secant of value (ot houses)
teemed wee Suffolk, 1-28th, Hants, 1.20 th. Them exmonis
toot place under the 64 Geo. 111., a 170, width eapowueed
megistrame, overseers and churchwardens to —apt the
mailer occupiers trot; the rate on the ground 4 pevertp.
But that mod* of exemption we oft** a matter 4 elt
deliosey and intricacy ; sometimes favouritism' crept In,-and
sometimes ioinstioe was unwittingly dose is the seleaden.
The main objection however which he had to that sett ems
that it pauperised all who applied for exemption, a every one
applyiog was obliged to plead poverty before leo
could be excused. The overseer wee obliged
to lava& the privacy 4 the poor acs's house Tedieltidif it
did not primate every appeoreaco of distress theirs was so
exemption. Here was • direct discouragement to elea4l-
- neatness, and provideses in the poor man. His pro-
per! was to give satire sad ustiondltiosal ereaptioa
in the following our. He proposed to scampi in the rural
districts, end la towns of Rader 10,000 inhabitants, homes
of the meal vale, of set exaseding 61. Over 10,000, sad
up to 60,000 iakabitaate 71, and a all tures of a greater
samba of inhabitants ha would Woad the ezemrtion to
bosom of 104 la annual value. He might here mention roe
instance of tho failure of the plan of rating maws. A local
act bad been obtained for Liverpool levying the ram
en tho owners of email tea eats, but the effect was
• frightful Wafts, of pauperism, arising from the attempts
of the owners to strew the rati • out of their tenants, %mil at
last the inhabitant., alarmed at tie state of things, called a
public meeting, and actually went to the expense of repealing
their own act and re-establishing matters on their old tooting.
He did not think that the change be proposed would have the
effect of pauperising the people, but that, on the contrary, it
would elevate them in the social scale. TIN proper way of
'fleeting that object wee, in his opinion, to educate the
people, and to maks their homes more comfortable and mote
assfonaable with the dictates of morality and cleanlinam
thaa they were at present.

Mr. FAOAN seconded the motion, which having been
put by the Speaker,
Mr. A. STAFFORD believed there wee no dispo-
sition, nor would it be wise on the part df the house to Rees
the amount of property on which the relief of the poor and
other local burdens must fall. (Hear, hear.) He also ols•
jected that the effect of the all would not be to relieve the
occupier, but to put No much la addition in the shape of rent
into the _ pockets of the owners of this description of pro-
perty. (Hear, beer.)
Sir O. GREY should not have opposed the introduction
of the bill atter the conversation be bad had with his boa.
friend is the subject; brt as the whole principle of the
semen bad been gone into, he concurred with the hon.
member opposite, that the hemp was in a position to decide
at once, and if a division wee taken, he should vote arainst
the motion. Haviag reed with much attention all that his
hoe. hiend had written, as well as all that he had said, on
this subject, he was convinced that the adoption of his pro.
position would have a directly contrary ter deny to that he
proposed, and lead to the erection of a number of inferior
low clamed houses—(bear, hear)—unlese the rate of exemp-
tion was Elated so high as to include a very large proportion of
the bowie property of the country. His hon. friend stated
that in some pariettes the owners of cottage property already
tarried the principle of exemption to a large extent. This
was a proof that the owners of such property had an interest
in exempting those houses from the rates, in order to put the
money into their own pocket'.
Mr. MAXEY gave credit to the bon. gentleman (Mr.
Scrope) for his humane and benevolent iirentiots, but
believed that instead of improving the condition of the poor,
and advencieg their interne, his plan would tend rather to
depreciate their condition. To peas this bill would, in his
oploior, be to offer a bonus for 'tie worst class of but..., and
to atop that progreie in improving the dwellings of the poor
which was now in operation.

Mr. P. BCROPE observed that he bad not intended to
raise au y argument at this stage of the measure, nor was he
aware that he had said more than was necessary as a 'unifi-
cation for its introduction; if, h , it was the 'pleasure
of the house to rsject the measure at once, he must submit,
though he had not anticipated such an opposition.
Mr. HUMS could Mate from information he possessed
that there were individuals possessing property of this kind
to a hies extant who made a point of getting their cottages
exempted from the rate and hying the amount on the rent,
Anything in the way of essoption had only led to abuse.
(Hear.) He believed there was a general desire to im,,rove
ins physical condition of the poor—(hear)—and he knew of
many who would gladly erect comfortable and wholesonsepot-
cages for their occupation, if they could be made to return, be
would not say five or four, but eves two per cent.
fdr. BROTRERTON was also of opinion that this bill
would inflict great injustice. In &Thud, there were more
than 10,000 houses, 9,000 of which were under 101. a year
to exempt these isms toe rates would be molt unjust to
the rest of the inhabitants. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. P. SCROPE, seeing the feeling of the house, would
not go to a divmon but begged to withdraw hie motion.
The motion was imordingly, by leave, withdrawn.