The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-05 00:00:00

CLAUSES:

Lord STANLEY, on pres:;tisirthe petitioN from a parish
is Monts s4.l2shire, ft m persons, principally laity, cinneced
with the Church of England, interested in the erection of
national schools, said he did not intend to discuss the ques-
tion, but the petitioners prircipolly complained of the in-
senion of clauses which prevented their submitting any
differences which might arise to the arbitration alone of the
bishop of the dioceir, in c•nsequsuce of which they could
sot panic:two is the root made by the Committee
of Pm', Comet/.

The kargais of LANSDOWNE did not intend to wo into
any argues( en t►e subj. e.; cut ►e erculd merely say that
Use clause ref reed to by the petitioners was an exceptional
clause, and whether it should ise so or not was matter cf ar-
gument.

The Bishop of LONDON hoped he night bs instrumental
is preventing what he considered would be • great oalamil
—namely, the entering into a disemaion of what bad bees
said for and against the pr vie/slings of the Colllllllt6llo of
Education of the Privy Colima. Their lordsbips would I
remember that in 1839, when an address to her Majesty was I
moved by his everarebeelaniented friend the Is. Azdtbialiop
of Canterbury, he expressed his views on the subject ; but it I
appeared that they did not meet with the approbatios
of the government, sad he had ever Mace exerted hieneelf to ;
maintain a good feeble' !Demme the Committee of Privy I
COLIIViI sad the Natimal Society. He would not say how
far he agreed with Mose who complaiaed of oartiality on ;
the part of the former body, but he might state that be did
sot go the length which meat did. He had always ander-
storm that the process by which the committee of privy i
oonneil was to dispense the pablic Made in aid of the import-
oat thjiet of oducatioa, was to a great extent experieneatal. I
It was a liew process la this coturry, and he thought the
thne had sow come wrier. Pity might fairly hope to obteia I
from the govemment their mealeat to the inaltution of • i
1111301 sew diepasoonate inquiry into the results of
that experiment. He admitted that there had been I
many mieropreventatiou; and be thimeht it, t.eref
the mom important that they Mould eve lb. Uri'
before them is no undorb ed form by bearing the
emdeteo of persons on both sides of the question
He held a number of petitions three/go, their toroatip, to
grant a committee of i. coley. I'. ere was another riot of
importmos ho he ronsidereo, gamely, the intik et of 'male
education. For all these remoss, and ahem which he had
not exproesed, he trusted that a select committee would be
a;.poiated to inquire lam the who's subject. (Hear.)
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said the etre of
edusatom fa tnis country was a• present very anomalous.
There 11111 W. two pertim equally desirous of promoting
the use object and they orild only Walt it by muted me
"perks, whila they we odd be sure to defeat their purpose
by priories and emplevess—hs meant the clarity of the
church of England, and the educational roinnottee of the
pricy council. No owe mould doubt the feelings which both
parries entertained.-Os the part of ehe cited', be could speak
of the p.ias they had mama, a. d, in WWI eases, the per-
@Gael entserresesmat they had suifired in e heir end avows
to support 'Mode It their galore p entities ; and no on. could
dosed the eanieertems et Al gown sent so knew. an he
did, the passes lob had hems brans*, d e a the ell Jere he
the noble mania a, sad the ;ahem which he bed moVegone
la &nada( .Hens hy which he hop d .be Mitres he ad is
view Might bee he enneed into, atter (Chiten.) At
a moment when the on i f tit • torte, had
sot been in the mos 8 mrishirg condition, it was
gorilla' to see teat the sty branch of Witco ex
perliture which ser so! e .aid .;seed the 'untie rut
moat tibia sad ire', made ley ediseeil.s. ;Hear. rm.)
The Amok could a t pr vile from be 0.11, to ais goer Use
11110,11.. and meintriiiiiee of oihoole sad tr. • &mew* of the
most there:", of rye* ity de peod is a great
degree on the sit el pull, meat. 0 t the nth. r haul. eke
state could not easy out such Olives wi ' 'ant the ',eremites
of the church, for the Perm es of the ; are r tel school n net
gristly depend toes the ex r iota of the per ehiel slug; a •n,
Lord BROUGHAM ha fee thirty live 'min laboured
the cause of • wawa, hut had been uoiebol to doapp ba-
ilment in the pm* mores of lis de. imam. Toe bi I which he
irtroduce i an 1100 sad be ell throrn out, but wit by the
"lurch, I r they had been his e oiljutors. A bill pmerlirg
fee be World-cm of the pro. le of E., lad was of all othi rs
• St question for the govermatnt of the counts) to lake up,
ard he hoped t 'et they would speedy make up their
salvias es the r.bjeset, and take it into their own bands.
(Hag, berm.)

Tae Bishop of CHICUBBTER had Nivea no'iee of his
Manatee to ores ..t Um. important yes i inn he now ..eld in his
Mad, not as ptvd,lst; tassel! to all ,It. •iewr e apr earl by
ttu Potitiner., blot r indisatias that if was a petitiois do-

serving of their lordships' most serious attention. (Haar,
bear.) Probably his aeswer to the noble marquis when
he asked him privately if the petition was likely to
lead to any dismission, hie answer' probibly some-
what too pesersl, wee, that be had wo intention of
entering into the qsestioa of the management clauses
'or the prone. dingo of the educational committee of the
Privy Council, but to represent simply that the petitioners
oonsidreed they had something to complain of. and without
asking the house to go at one* into the question of whether
they were right or wog is that °pintos, be &fired to
urge upon them to take the matter into their consideration.
Beyond that it was not his intention to enter into the question
- ----- • • • • • - -

_
The Bishop of T. DAVID'S w •uld be glad to ham
informatl,n on the suhjeci, bat dii not tellers viat any satis-
factory result could be expected from the inquiries conducted
by a committee.
The Earl of HARROWI3Y thought that lomat). ine
should be dose to pat an end to the uncertainty which at
present existed on this important subject. In his opinion to
vital a matter as the religious *ducat i in of the people should
not met merely on orders in council passed without consults-
don with the legislature.

Lord BROUGHAM observed, that it was out of the
reports of the committee of the other house. of which he was
chairman, that the system of 1833 had originated, and the
rants under it were Rule.

Th. Marquis of LANSDOWNE, referring to the meeting
at Willis'sßoom., at whs. h the petition presented by the
right rev. pules (the Bishop of Chichester) had enemata,
said there was scarcely one Aegis statement made at that
meeting, i s referent» toNsi at tees of fact, which he was not able
on the most unquestionable .vide-.a—evidence laid oa the
table of that house—moat decisively to controvert—(hear,
hoar)—and to prove that pusses imaNainted with
this subject, Ives induced to sign that petition,
by statements which might kave been contradicted
on the spot. It would be sufficient fur him
to tell their lordships that when a clergyman of
the Cberch of Ragland, a meteeriger of one of their church
schools, who was prima at that meeting rose to contradict
them, he was told that that was not the fitting opportunity
to do s, they wanted se information from him, and he was
refused an honing. Thus shoeing that those preatlewasn
who were usemblei at that meeting in the spirit of local
liberty as they said were di.posed to I.ceord that local Shorty
to now who Teetered to inform the meeting of the fads.
(Hear, bear.) He was aware that this was a subject eS
which the public mind had bun much ezeited and maw
various and conflicting views had been formed, bat however
incited a man's feelings might be, that formed no excuse Is a
matter la which the cause of religion and charity wee se
deeply coneareed, ter perverting the truth—(Cheers)--ead
Ist sountenansiug and dissensthatine statements which those
who put them forward, bed they made Huffish.. acquainted
with the facts as they mast have done, nest have
known to be wholly and entirely unfounded. (Load
cheers.) He would risply state two or three facts which
wise material as proving the nature of the sniarepreeents-
Mims ander which this petition had been signed. It was
Mated that the Church of England under the administration
of the Educational Committee of the Privy Council bed not
received its due I roportion of the public messy voted by
parliament. Now (continued the !noble marquis) I beg to
inform your lordships, without entering into any argument
as to the principles on which these grants have been app..
dosed, that of that considerable fund, so liberally allowed
by parliament—(hear, hear)—not less than four fifths ul
the money has gone to the Church of England—
(cheers)—that, in fact, I expected if any cuspid s%
were mad. from any quarter on this subject, it would kw
come not from the church, but from the dissenting body I
hear)—mho might undoubtedly hays stated that Ia
proportion to the amount of their population they had not
received their due. (Hear, hear) But with resp‘ct to the
church of England, their schools, as shown by the paper I
now hold in my hand, have received at least four•tilthe et
the whole of the grants made for building schools, and abet
is not lees important, hays had a still greater proportion es
I believe, but at least the same of the grants for mils.
taming the schools when founded. (Hear,autessepi!
Yet, my lord, ootwithstandieg these fu as facts, it w
and eceildinuly snorted, at that meeting, that not IMP 'bil-
ling of the public money voted by yarliament had gone to
any school, the opogregation promoting which had nit been
required to subscribe to what was called the management
clauses. (Hear, hear.) Now, that statement I say was
perfectly unfounded. iCheen.l I have in my possession at
this moment, anl can at ones lay it ore the table of your
1 irdships' luau, a list of so less than 400 ochools which
have received for various purposes connected with education
out of the parliamentary grant sums for books, LT masters,
and other items of expenditure amounting altoeeth.r to a
great many thousand pounds which hays been so applied,
which are being so applied, and which will continue to be ro
applied. (Hear, hear.) This is a matter of fact which,
under the eirstmstaneee, your lordships will I am sun agree

with ma that I am fully justified in stating. It was also
stated on the ocea•ion I aas alluding to that in some part
of tits proteedioel of the Committee of the Privy
Council these was a determination shown to pre-

vent religion from being connected with the edu
cation given is the schools aidid by those funds. Yet
there were at th.it moment, and the fact must have been
known to the person who made that statement, but whom I
will not name, and who ought undoubtedly to have ac-
quainted his audience with the minutes on which he was
commenting (hear)—there were at that time in ex *tenet •
series of regulations (which I have in my possession, and
which it would have been my duty to read to your lordships
had we gone into the discussion of this question)—making in
the first year, in the emend year, the third year, and even
thirst to the liftn year, examisation and instruction by •
clergyman of the church of England iato the catechism sad
formula:in of the etwar-h of England an indispensable emir
dition. (Loud cheers.) Yet such was the obliquit of
mind—such the peculiar construction of the undentan
of this gentleman who made that statement, that he oo
being himself to wen that there was to be baud
is those minutes and regulations only a disposi-
tion to separate religious from secular education. (Ilear.)
Now, my lords, these are material ruts, these are slaw
meats, which I mast allow to pass uceontradieted, because
each is my feeling on this subject, so deeply am I persuaded
that it is indispensable to the course of sound education to
cosnect it, and to connect it inseparably with religious in-
struction, that if one tithe of what was stated at that meet-
ing were true, it would have been my duty instantly to bays
discontinued having any share in the administration of these
grants, and, far from opposing, to have seconded any tootles
that might be proposed for putting • stop to
such • system. The noble marquis then observed that
it seemed to have been the prevailing opinion that the dis-
tribution of the grant and the proceedings of the government
as connected with it had cot led to a successful issue. Cer-
Sainly it might not have been es successful as some had en-
acted, but he would not admit that their exertions had not
led to any successful issue. He could inform their lord-
ildps that at that moment there were scattered throughout
the country 800 schools founded with the assistance of
the parliamentary grist, in close accord with the privy
eeuacil, and under the superintendence of the ses-
hose clersgmen, who wore their patrons and
sage. From them Ise was daily in the habit of re-
osivirg testimony as to the ben. its derived from inepectios,
and from the system adopted with regard to teacher and
leaders. All of those commun'estions stated that the schooh
fully realised the expectations held out, and that being the
owe, he could not admit that 800 schools, founded on • re-
gular system, were not an impruvement, and a very great
Improvement, oa the no system that had previously pre-
The right rev. bench must not think that they could
enter into this investigation as regarded the church cf
England and at the same time exclude other nets
and other churches. (Hear, hear.) It might be
admitted that every religious denomination in the country
shr uld share in any public bounty granted for educational
purposes, but it was not so easy to settle the proportions in
which that bounty was to be distributed, or the nature of the
safeguards you were to have from each. (Hear, he .r.) He
spoke with a knowledge which even the right rev. prelates
could not hays—a knowledge derived from the experience
of the lest three yeah--of the diffieulty of dealing with sec-
tarian samples in the allocation of public grants. (Hear.)
His could assure their lordships that they would find the
teak no easy one, either in deciding on the system
they should recostmead, or is satisfying those cisme
of the community whose numbers and importance entitled
them to consid. ratios.

Petravas ordered to Le on t►e table.
TIMM WORKHOUSE.
The Kemal, nt LANSDOWNE laid on the table copies
of eorreap.,adeeee Mamma Archbishop Ill'Hale ant the
eowmaeronen of poor law relative to the stet* of Tam
workhosee.

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Minima of LANSDOWNE noted the committee on
this bill.

The Deka of WELLINGTON said he had en objection
to this bill, which, having been in a distant part of the
country, he bad been usable to urge on any of its former
stmts. He would now state h's objection very shortly. His
opinion was that the hill did Lot go far enough, for, u it
stood at present, it would not pet an end to these distur-
beams in Irelaad which the government were so anxious to
IMIDP/0111. Oa reedier over the account of the D Brae
affair it appeared to Dim that bete, en the parties segued to
the disturbances there were many cane. a of quarrel existing,
and many riete were Likely to take place which could not
be prevented by law se laid dawn in the present bill.
It appeared that both parties were in the habit of burying
.beir dead with great formality, and that whenever such a
mremonial as a funeral took plea the opposing party inter-
rupted, sod note often occurred, u dangerous to the public
peace and as fatal to human life as any anniversary proces-
sion. (Hear, hear.) Now, he protested that he
could sin lerstaail the reran why the legislature should not
at ones prevent persons in Ireland from appearing abroad in
arm., or why we, It that in Ireland the population should
be sneered a privilege which, he would venture to my, did
not exist lee elm pie.pie in any other parte( the civilised world.
(Hear, beer.) Why should any man bee lowed to appear
in arms, incept a in this or in other countries, for the
amusement *reporting? Why should not every man appose:-
kg abroad in arms be required pro.luce his game ear-
thiest*, 'alike t very man carrying arm. ought to have, or
on refusing to predates it, he deprived of those arena t (Hear.
hear.) He should prepare a clause enehed_ying his Mews
either for toe report or the third reading. (Hear.)
The Marquis of ListidDOWNE feared that it would be
impossible to introdu -e such a clause in the present bill,
wh'sh wee a proce•sions bill, and not an arms bill. He was
very fez, however, free, saying that mime such legislation as
that indicated by the noble duke would not hereetter be
atmeseary in [Mewl.
Lord MONTHAOLE concurred in the expediency of
Netzietiag the posseinioa of arms la Ireland, mad to effect
that object, in as far as was consistent with the mope of the
present bill, be 'unwed that the forfeiture of arms ahead
mustelthe peisaity in the ease of both, the tairdesseanoue
by the bilL At mom it sitetbod to 'sky dm sea

taro. De would uo. move say formal amendment, but
merely Orriw out the supgestios he the ecersideration of the
goverment.
' The LORD CHANCELLOR observed that the power of
proelmatira would fetal the object inteudwl by the noble
"rd.

Lord STANLEY would support say muss calculated to
dimiuieh, he wuuld net aay toe poesessioa of areas, but the
habit of parading with then about the country.
After an observation front the Earl of Citusioat.L., the
house went into committee. Clause one was ape( d tu. The
reinaftnag clauses were agreed to, and the house resumed.