The Express.
London, England, 1850-02-16 00:00:00

BOARD OF TRADE RETURNS,

Mr. DISRAELI task this opportusity of making an in-
quiry of the President a the Baud of Trade, of which he
had Irina him node. yesterday ; it related to the return of
the Board of Trade. He wanted eons mama= se to the
cause of the delay in the publication ef those returns. At
the present moment we were is the middle of the south of
February, and the smoothly Maros he Desember had et
yet been circulated. (Yes! from Mr. Labowebore.) Not
the monthly returns; the right Ins. gentlemasi rain= to
the general rftult for the rat. These were the two ports
on which he should like to hear sumo satisfactory
tine. Another point related to the publicatiem of the
Board of Trade—he spoke of the tables relating to
the revenue tad commerce of the country. The member
had recently had as additional volume delivered to them,
and at this mon.ent it would seem that they were is posses
lion of the ',tarns from the Board of Trod' as to the Made
and commerce. of the country, only up to the year 1847, this
heir the year of our Lord 1850. He wished to know from
the r&fi.t hen. gsrAlusian when did he imagine that ninths
of this nature, of 40 distant a date se 1817, would be before the
house, sad whether ministers had taken into ionsideration
the means by which they might be carried to a more
react period than 1867. Whilst they were favoured with
the number of suainsooses again* the spirit shops in Dub-
lin ; whilst they were favoured with the returns of coffee-
shops ; he wasted to know whethu ministers were of opi.
slob that it was more important that a eerie, of returns
should be given of the number of Moth= in blenehester
and otbet towas, whilst they were favoored with delays sad
procr-stinations respecting commerce tad navigation. They
should have some light thrown on the Board of Trade, sad
the manner is which the returns of the Board of Trade had
been prepared end published.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, with the exception of the
last quaint, the first two question related to the delay
which the hon. gentleman supposed to leave taken place i
the presentation of the monthly returns and the mums for
the year. lle could assure the hon. gentleman that he wee
under a misapprehension jibe thought there Titadisidalay
in the returns of this year ma compared with re-
turns. He found that ever WWI the year I there had
been but one year in which these returns had sot been
presented later than the present year. These returns were
laid on the table as the 11th of February, and
every other year they were laid oa the table
later than the 11th February, with the exception of 1842.
They Weft forced to wait until they received Mae returns
from the eiders., department,. The duty of the Board of
Trade was to make this ap sad pressen them te the hem.
This year, especially, the Chancellor or the Rulisiser and
himself were mom amiess, eassideriai the cseseirte whirs
were likely to ems bran to Mar, that r late delay is
possible should take pare io the prenatal= of these =-
counts, and he wine to the based ef =nom to tortielt them
with infurmationos men as pessible. It was only yester-
day that the Raabe man= whisk been give.
I. this return was received. He peed he bed
emesseit the depeelassat over which he prodded
of say delay. The se nests hod bees this yew es
early is say year Mese 1136. The ices gentleman had
shad why the mesa* railed Fortee's Talks may west to
the sag a w 1847. This inienamica, addles bad
bees presented to the Hew of Commons by the Beard of
Trade, wee eleven me year mare is anew Mrs it sew wee.
If my memo amid be Smilede eseeletest with esseram, fns
men emeasobteisiag assesses ed this deseription, he
should be weds= them. He should be meet happy to
reader the mere perfect then they ass were, end expe-
dite their prodeeties.
"IMAM COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA.

Mr. klanT7Wisf;ing t• si• vapors that • coitus% had
Mss cateredintaMtworatMpurasesysntdtMNapa,
wbe wore likely to awry Mew dna immuelsolisa with
wkwl whetter way smalmastbai behasattred tow
letweet the espy sad the ihnewheaL
- - - -

M. HAYTI/ said that I/ Mesabi eel sive • willawgar7
wet soma, it even ben ratalle env whimb he woe awry to
eadresaba: an Bp lb bet sessisekillea with the
al the ay be Eleleillir mamboed ken
bin that au mews hat We ..k. bat tbah they were
meter weeideleties. He Ai set keen, eve did be believe,
thee say malesele bel yet bees eahwoi late.

CROWN LANDS, NEW SOUTH WALES.
Mr. SCOTT, abeam to a statemeat mamba ht the
report front the Welt soolosiNee at the Nadi
of Hess Swath Wales. ea WOWS leads, dated • ,
1649, mid thet this report Mated that • gag
sad hembrael MINN were seat at to New •
la as enigma lair, is the awns of Irt
report eampielai that not ony were they
hat Me lead of las )hall lea the
Immegertation allkse who he
magma ship walnut her lea, d
wee meet flame ad dlrpos The report also esm-
that SOK had basa expended at of the ettlealal
1=7.1r the-
the
Ai reeeMag Mae Taigas in
:Mut they valuated that them aoseediags.)aightt behe
54 0. GREY said that he had at am the report. He
was happy to mean the ben. gentleman that the statement
esatahred fa sad ma aintraelt wee altogether *Whoa female-
tics. No parsons of that eiereeter had bma mat eat at the
moue of •the colony.
DEATH FROM WANT IN IRLIAND.
Kr. P. SCROPB, is worse.. to the aresers' Ja
ggiest& h Atlas% year la ballad, amain. la She regret of
eM Pest Law Cmambiessub la tale vailialt of eleallt
ham want were resirlek @Mad the lisentsey he Inked if
the peer his sommheieweee did not flail In several IMIN that
erica had hoes sesmissid by such an mina of neglect, ea
the pmt aft volksles sew or hosed of gaardleas, es to
reemasad Mope to be ham against them for the ofiledal
elitist alb* *My.
Sir W. SOMIATILL/I meld tot undertake at owe to
mower the esseties. Mae wen may imams' of allayed
dos* tom want.
THE DANISH ABMISTICZ.
Mr. DISRABLI MA ass meaume to imagist what would
be the sashes is the gwesilia Ms toss alms Is pens bat he
world pat • gsseisa ie Os Roble lied, the bet mildew of
the mown, t•whisk he bud he would distinelly reply. He
hoped the noble lard Weld answer this question, was it the
Daniel somersault width refused to eoatiane the &rah.
tam ?

Lord J. 11,II&SELL —The Dankit goverassest did aot
refuse sometimes the armistice.

AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT BILL.
Mr. DIVETT asked when the house might taped the
Australis Government bill to ho brought on.
Lord J. RUSSELL mid it would be takes the first thing
it Monday nest.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
•

]IrvHORSHAN.eid that having on a former evening
given a nodes respecting the delalcaticas of the late secre-
tary se Ohs ecclesiastical coassaissisit, it hod been Aces
=A to bias to move for ;eorese of the
de/eiretieeswet the sewneissiest with whisk these
ware . He
begged, therefore, to Move for thews es
an unopposed rotor&
Agreed to.
-

DISTRESSED UNIONS (IRELAND).
Os the modes of Lord Joss Rresart, the hewn Pleolved
itself into sometime of the whole tome to take into as
siderstion ferule reseladone respecting the sus of neeteey
du to the orasolitiated fend by the distressed usions in
Ireland.

-----
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The hoses will have heard
maiden of the state of Inked from time to time
during the last year to be aware that Hinges of the
very greatest importenes have taken pleas Ice the
cooditin of Shot wmatry. The stale of things was
this. The man member of the laboWitelamse ia
coal ny were ad essperfai by wages, Me IMO Wink cm
the prods., of em pins al potato grade end darns; a
groat parties of no pm millered extreme amehetlml, while
at tho sans time there was sake ounpelltha kr had, that
ves beard from
le sheds sretieyeer dwham and INMIONO
eslYoi sad radiomen wee nisi apes as
tine to Me, both and sine the mien to panicle ex-
Mediae., mamma of dear sad condos la order to pat
a stop is the urines whisk were so frequently committed.
Now, without Marla' into any queen of the
pale; that he beim adopted of late years, I may my
to the bum that the faders et the potato mop
MI NW Animawhisk hasconsequently taken pla e, hare o
theemolmo peniseed Ammo +Web I do ass thick ass
legidatiee gentian& (lieu, hear.) la those dilution o'
Inlaid whisk wore Mai dinees4 sad those I. which
there was the greatest assepolieles for lend, that eenspetidori
has nearly mad, the deeke being rather to get rid of the
lead which Meats wry he to hold. Then has been
also WIIIMPaIIi migration, sad altogether the alteratioo that
has taken pine has been se of the mese remarkable Wad.
(Hear, liar.) The legislature has always to guide
its 11110 mationly between two dangers : the one of
allowires the people who haveanooloages their plotsbesmisg wage. f of potato
teazigisai=" mew
The other auger to avoided is thu:i
of to. greet hennas upon Inland, lest all persons
el shored be dieeooreged and the produce of the
sot be raised in safficient quantities to sustain
the inhabitants of the country. With respect to two or
those mune@ which have ben represented as much dis-
trend, it is stated that although muclsof the land islua-
isnmesd,
yet that there would be no great difliculty is getting
lanames it, at a redaction of &boat 26 per cant. as the
reset of her or live years beck. At the same time the are
Wombs merle with regazd to the fisheries en various
paces of the meet which are of a very eadefordcwy snare,
sad show the readiness with which the people exert them.
selves is the patent of this portinder breath of industry.
Bet perhaps dr nom rem:WM cheap that has takes
plass mos the posropties of parliament last year, is the
very great dimirallen in the proem es the poor rates.
(Rear, hear.) I me held is say hand an so-
count of the demos la that expenditure far the four
last mutate, October, November, December and January, as
compared with the lain periods in 1848 and 1849. The de-
crease was in October, 18,0001., ki November 40,0004 in
December, 60,0001 , and in January the accounts of which
botanist been cloud, 70,0001 , making a demean in four
months of no less a sum than 186,0001. (Hear, hear.) The
decrease is the number of persons receiving out-door relief
is still more rein/kohl., tor on the 27th January, 1849,
there were receiving out-door relief 524,284 panes, sedan
the 26th January, 1850, only 118,940, bind a durum of
405,344. It is right to say at the same time 'bathers has been
an inereem, although to no great extent, in the amount of
indoor relief administered during the last-named period. I
have various reports and pent, letter from inapecton of
the poor and others, nspeetong the enact of this damns,
and they all my that the decrease is spew, and in the
camber of persons applying for relid, has been mainly
caused by the cheapaess and plenty of provision daring
the prevent season. (Loud ann.) I wish now to call
W lineation of the hone to a comparison which is very re.
markable of the expenditure of thirty union, which unions
have bean generally taken by the conuniseionn as the mast
distressed, sad to which the moot support has been given
by ures of parliament during former years. The amount
paid for in-door relief has rather increased, being 14,9824. in
December, 1848, and 18,2061. is 1849; but the out-door re-
lief had decreased from 28.8881. in December, 1848, to
6,0481. la December, 1849, being a deers.., of
22,8201. The number of perms relieved, both
is-door and oat-door, has diminished from 297,918
to 147,397. (Hear, hear.) This is, ceitainly, eio far satio-
factoey, as it shows that there is as improvement eves I.
those district. which were consider, d the worst, and which
many persona anidered would only go from bad to worse
until they had reached a pitch of complete desolavices. In
proceeding to consider this question I Amid now state that
among the opinions that have been given by various per-
son is Ireland from whom we have received reports, there
is name more prevalent than that the birdie= arising from
W loans of former yeas fall so heavily on many of the
unions of Ireland that although they might be able
to bear the pressure aching from the relief of this poor
they cannot at the same time meet the sums due in repay.
meat of the loans. (Hear, hear.) I wiliest' what have been
the loans made of late years foe the purposes of the Irish
unions. In 1840, 122,5001. was sinned, of which
47,0001. was allowed to be deducted for mismanagement in
the constructioa of the building, and 48,0001. was repaid,
leaving a sum of 1,130,0001. yet unpaid The next public
debt of this kind was for labour works in the eprlag
of 1846. The sem of 476,0001. was advanced,
which half, 238,0001, was a free :grant, and the
other a loan, to be repaid in twenty half ywly
lastabants with interest at five per cent. In the summer of
1848 anther act was pared and in the winter 4,860,0001.
was advanced. Of that, 2,425,0001. was remitted, and the
rest inverted into twenty half-yearly payntenta, in-
cluding interest at 31. hs. per cent, In the summer
of 1847 &neater sum was advanced. under the tem-
porary relief act, commonly callet Burgoyne's Act, of
which 953,0001. was required to be repaid, the remainder
being • free grant. Oa this loan no intend was
charged. By ea act paten in August of last year an addi-
tional sum was authorised for the haildiog of workhouses of
80,0001., which, with 40,0001. advanced under the
original act, makes 100,0001. applied to the building of nth
houses. The sums, thanker, now due from Inland to the
consolidated fund are, first, 1,130,0001.; second, the addt
tional loan of 100,0001. The amount remaining unpaid of
the relief works under 9 Viet, s. 4, is 158,0001. ; and ander 9
Viet., e. 7, 2.306,0001. Other loans under the Temporary
Belief Act, 790,0001., asking altogether 4,483,0001. There
was a proposal made with respect to one of these eats, which
was beaded to by parliament, width enabled the
Tresenn to • certain extent to extend the pay
meat over a period of 20 ran with interest,
ea application from the different empties to whom
the loons had been made, and at the same time power was
givenof so advancing the time of payment as to make it
WNW men quickly when the unions were least embarrassed.
Six cemustiee appiied to have the time prolonged, and three
to have the time shartend, the lath r beiog cases in which
the advance had bees of small meant. Nolen' propene,
Was; the principle of that act, to extend still further
the time for repayment. We propose to consolidate,
whoa desirable, all t 0... various payments, and to
allow a period, when It is necessary, of 40 years
lot their liquidation. But In so doing I should state, with
Mud _ to the former lose, one thing as regarded the time
allowed. The eases we celled in by the Treasury in pro-
endernto um rases. For instance, if the poor rate woe
65., there WM so extension of time granted by it
Treasury ; when it was above be., 10 years wen granted
ease ila, 16 years; and above 10, , 20 years were granted
pes:istyreen. Wei proems to take the was general
.1
none varying Its application wording
to the in length of time. The is another
einowowlaoso I mats nestles, namely, that while some of
OWN lens bear tannest at • dud amount of 1 pa mat
there are Mims wblob bear no iaterillt. We prop. ee to take
the liabilities nut as they are, to continue asking irtterst
whoa provided by act of pa-lama; and te omit it where
at premed so Murat is Munn. The orismalttes will be
avow that in • ensidetable portion of honed these bar-
then have been slated to be so large that then has been
a difficulty to Omni& he ,he straw espouses
of the poor rata. But then are some mien is

fir p~g.as or , workhouse aseennale•
the, and , t• ties pried* of has
pose•law, tete, - :nag Asa
Min eltallWeire .. ___ I mete Own tint-
the annual of debt Innen* es esatleneve;nl4. Among the
yens ef Wash, tureisbed applies 01 feed mil den.
big le the weekbente% mad abet ban nee es this nesind
mans el their dens swiag le the elele:ef
the Asa To pone sass all the of Mee wigell•
houses have bast seised, at.d it bee been with Inn
eft, sad eidedy *rough the laterlerease et prlvatelgstrdo,
this then ants have beset redesand, the Wale esnelalleg
to pay mo les ekes in per Nat kr dee lad re. Is me
leas then tan have then been gad stem
sens of ban bean dripped la simile, swam.
• New M sprain us Mat awe 'es are meanly ovens
to thi doennsloneen ef the liaise, sal the great iambs?
people like had tweaked Win la knew yeses, end Ow V
the widen esuld be Mined ken than ftmess they
wadi be ttbM to bogie algal, end tribal le stogiealatt
sane Ileaseek admiehloallea oloosa=r. k
dr gonna of the Irish peer law
ettim Power, mew la Oils cos try. He bee =rls7,l
Mee be is of epistles that several
be able to like er It up tenparery yak-
betters, and that by the application of the weekbeen
Met, they world be able very much to Natal* ea=
were it met for the debt erMek it lunging ever
whit* reeler. aunties ingsseible. Bash being the Ole
*ink it advisable to propose se the hone that the whale el
Ike 416 M 4,461,1101. be consolidated, aid be, as I have
'god K.M meth mat& by instalments over • period of
forty yens, Wilk or without Mauna es they_ nay be re.
Cl:6lat prom& Al= le annens which I waived
I=d the panel of Ike gsse law Wan wen
dindukhed beans Isglneilies amil lkswatise by me leas •
, sum titan 100,0001., bah the dieloneed leblek are
1 about thirty is maker, ken mot been able le make say
such effort. At the sad of December the amenat they hod
se ply us about 270; bat then are Ober sun doe
Inn the electoral Ilise who have emened .dense
diem lbe general rase die anat. The peer law sonnlo.
sin= an of opines this ifthey nen dens null be dle•
deep& an only wend be plena a tar
beim *kin ee fang ma the yaks, hat that le
scans arse It wadi melds Ihe pen law ccauniesiemen
le min MemeMekleme la essiedinse with the report of Me
Mr=l fiend
71.wprignallbat partwof the beould
to be
Abend be paid la -relief of WNW liabilities, so
lIM
kW nth they may be able to carry Ike animmglated changes
Lord J. RUSSELL—The ma we pewee to advance
era 270,0004 to liquidate the able of the talus, and
30,0001. more, maing the whale amount at be debt
4,783,0001. I should now wish testate what has bees done
with regard to the rat•-ia-aid, wida was maims* bv Par-
Unbind last year for themsd ...flag innediete dis-
tress. A sun of 260,000i.per was shied to lei admen to be
repaid out of the proceeds cl the rate, sad it was
to the relief of urgent distress in June
if =d August, 1849. Of that sum, 150,0001. has be.. rb
paW by the sakes, and banded over to the paymaster of
aid' services in Ireland. There is • further sum in band
which the treasury has not yet ordered to be entered se part
of the repayment, sad it is to be considered that there will
be some required for purposes which appear to us to come
y within the provisions of the rats in aid. The first I
rePiriementiosed—namely, the enabling guardians of the
Merest anions to support the poor who are receiving relief
from the present unions during the transition, and until the
sew unless and electoral division are rated. We likewise
think it would be advisable to apply part of this um to the
Ambition of temporary workhouses to enable the law to be
earned Idly into effect. And I matt now take the oppor-
t:nali of stating say opinion, se I have stated it on other
o s, but nowNting more strongly confirmed is it than
ever, that by keeping strictly to the workhouse test
you have the best snurity against maladmiMtratka
of the pier law. (Hear.) The proposals, therefore, that 1
have to make to the house are is the first place that the gm,
nerd sums which have been advanced to Ireland, beginning
with the loans of 1859, going on through those of '46
sad '47, and the subsequent years, should be con
'send into eonsolidated annuities payable with W-
I terest or without as pronovaly arranged, such pay-
ments to be estanded over a period of forty yews. l
My next proposition is that 300,0001. should be advanced, te
enable the board of guardians, under the direction of the
war law semmindems, to pay off the sans due for debts
~.tasted for hod and clothing for the poor during the
rlirpressare. (Hear, hear.) I feel I should not be
led la asking this proposition if I wero not of °pinks
that, peat and difficult as the transition is of which I have
Vglitthe preliminary &nervations I have addressed to
Is
hense--great as have been the sufferings of the Irish
people is past yeas—then is now a prospect of Ireland, if
those burdens are not unduly placed epos her, being able to
rem/en from the great dowsed= she has bees suffering, and
to eater upon • new social career, loading on to pro.-
perky. (Hear, hear) There has been hitherto neither
that amezion between the landlord and tenant, nor
between the tenant and the labours:, which we are accus-
tomed to see is civilised oouatries--there have not bean those
advances made by the landlords for farm buil • other
outlays which the landed gentry in and
Soonscrilaa anare accustomed to make in compliance wit thole
arrangements with their tenants, nor has there bola
that regular payment of wages for labour by the
(amen to the labouring nen, which ought to be the anon
source of their subsistence. (Hear, hear.) On the cow
teary, in the relations of the various classes in Ireland,
everything has been disorder and disorganisation. Hem
we read of thou dreadful crimes in connection wilts the
I ompation of land, and those divisions between the different
dames of society, which seem to be beyond the power of
legislation to remedy. (Chun.) Bat that which is net
for us to dispose of, ma be disposed of by a higher pewee
—(hear, hear) ;—end I do believe that we are approaching
a period when society in Ireland can be constituted in a
different manner than it has been haretolore—a period
when we may look to a better state of society is that
country, and when the higher dames tad the poor may
work is harmony together for the improvement of a fertile
country, inhabited by a noble and •generous people. (Loud
cheers

The formal resolutions were then put from the chair aad
to, sod on the question that the chairman do report
to the home,
Mr. F. FRENCH, who was very imperfectly heard, in
coasequenee of the bur of conversation which communed in
all parts of the house when he rose, and continued' uattl the
end of his speech, wee understood to mmplain that the home
was sailed to the consideration of this subject in the &boom*
of that full information which ministen might have gives.
He denied that the proposition of ministers could be regarded
as a liberal one, end contended that to make the poor•law
work well they must reestablish the workhouse teat, and
subdivide the electoral divisions into smaller and more ma-
nageable districts. (Hear, boar.)

31ONSELL, as representiag one of the most dis-
tressed district, in Ireland, felt it only an act of justice I.
say that in introducing this measure ministers had taken
what he regarded as the first step towards the improve-
ment of the country. (lieu, hear.)
- -

Agar hw words from the Earl of AIt:NDLL and SURLILY
and COL BIPTKOar,

Mr. P. BEBOP& said he looked upin the measure as a
great indulgence to these unions which were indebted in
large auras of money and were unable to pay. (Hear.) But
the people of England had some interest in the matter, and
if the time for the repayment of these loan which amounted
to nearly 6,000,0001. were extended over forty instead of
twenty years, they bad a right to know that the poer law
should for the future be as fairly carried out in Ireland as
it was in England. At present there were very great
complaints of the burden of the poor rates in Ireland, but
the noble lord had told the house that during the last year
of distress the number of paupers amounted in that country
only to 1 in 27 of the population, while in England it was
1 in 16, therefore I. pr portion to the population the pres-
sure was greater in England than in Ireland. He much
feared that the Ist* reduction in the number of persons re-
lieved and in the amount of poor rate levied referred to by
the noble lord erase from a denial of relief rather than from
any actual diminution in the amount of pauperism. In some
unions, be was informed 10,000 or 12,000 persona had been
struck off the relief list, and persons who had been refused re-
lief out of doors, on applying to be received,
Sato the workhouse had been denied and sent home
a distance in some come of eighteen or twenty
miles, without food or essisteses of any kind. In Kllnsh,
out-door relief had been stopped, and the food from within
the workhouse was not wording to the dietary sanctioned
by the oommindoners bat consisted principally of turnips.
the eett.squenCle of welch was that dysentery had set in, and
the deaths had increased in the six weeks Febessry
2nd. tram 16 to 140. He bad received sesessesiaaease
aldose se to the insuillsieney of the diet, end the 11116 sad
demoralisation in which the paupers is the workhouses
were subject to.

Mr. CLEMENTS eoesidered one of the great difficulties
in the western unions some from the large amount of limi-
ness ..trusted to the several boards of guardians.
Lord C. HAMILTON celled upon the house to recollect
that there were lyre trees of land in Ireland lying in a
state of non-cultivation, owing to the heavy pressure of arrears
of rates, and that in conseqaence of this state of things
a higher proportion of rates had to be levied epos Ike leads
which were under cultivation. He suggested that the rates
on the unfilled land should be treated in a similar manner
to those on the tilled, and made repsyable like the union
rates. because, by such a mode of procedure, the tomer
would he brought into a state of calibration.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY &diked whether ft was the inten-
tion of the noble lord et the heed of the aoyernswint to throw
the whole of the 300,0001. present ulnae., as well as t►e
4,483,0001. old debts, molds( i ell 4,783,0001., into eossoU-
dated enmities 1

Mr. GRATTAN laid he was of opinion that Ireland bad
been born—(a latighj—fee a better state of Wogs than that
of bring beggar, sad that Providenoe
should M the recipient of aim. Bne bad Rota fine climate,
sa excellent soil, a hardy people, the Suit harbours la
dee world, sad ►onesty in dealing, sad morality
at heroin. And, yet, with all them benefits and
blaming, weaved upea her, she was now at the

kwiff•whit. Tie Ib mica
the ildlie%dl and spinets* his •Sae alstseesSlS. Let Mil
the Mom *mined beednee the sigma of Intend MI
30:1•1946 wile. it WM, sea her wily
way red ; he, fee Mt% never submit le*
contiamassi mob a
but • of p eteamit Wags. The Ad wee.
Ireland 01 sot swat money—Qmightertij
she Mt require geld, d
landlords aid lenehts of
siLi esizetry diri reit duty.
Re saw nothing eeplexity aid
distress. Ireland was es she had ever bees.
the great ddilenlty bt the way of Roglialtstatesmen.
He did not sus how they men Piet out el it. Be thought
t might have. got oat et It by norm rade& bee It.
(Roan of laughter.) It had bea isimalso.did Irby di*
Irish memben were so And of prolestim. The answer was,
became the Irish had nothing to protest. (Ceetioatd
'suchen ) That was the realm they were all protectionfirs
now. Protest, indeed! Rod they acted, as Sheridan would
have bad Min e aM, they might have bad something to pro-
teat, for his words WM. that they ought to hay. waded
knot deep in blood. But as for the dirty *Win that was
sow offored—(lsuctitter)—or the barrel of wheat, or oats, he
would never take it. TM fres traders might rest assured
that be would never go foe the pound of tee or eager now
going to be doled oat. (Continued laughter.) Had the
Irish held their pianos, as Wellington did at Torres Ifei.
des, they would have had much to protect. Enema
wanted men like Chatham, Barks, and Fox at present, sad
sash men tiers were if the English intellect and
am dwarfed of late years ; she wanted those whe
would bind Ireland to her with an 'demands.
chain, and give the sister country liberty, and life, and action.
He believed that Ragland could not stead the shocks abs
might matte from other countries U she had Irehuid like •
log amend her neck; and therefore it was high time to re.
move the log, and to legislate is • spirit of justice towards
the country.
Viicoant BERNARD expressed his thanks to the noble
lord for the 11141‘11117111 he bad that night proposed. It would
M • boot to Ireland, and that boon would be greedy in
greased by the till, jot which it had been brought forward,
ter it would enable parties in the sister country to know
how they stood, and enable them to cultivate the soil
better thee they bad done in former year'. The
einem now proposed would infuse fresh envois into all
delete of the people, and the best results might be expected
0 Idirw. (Hsu, hear.)

. _
Mr. BRIGHT wished to make one or two observations
before the debate on this subject was disposed of. He
thought the speech made by the noble lord to some extent
satisfactory, inasmuch se it showed, what he (Mr. Bright)
believed to be the fact, that in 191310 parts of Ireland there
was some improvement visible from the disastrous events of
the last three or four years. He could comprehend the kind
of claim which hon. members thought they bad for the
300,0001., to pay off the debts contracted by en-
tail of the most distressed unions, for he bad received
letters from those unions, from which it appeared that the
very furniture belonging to the union houses bed been
put up for sale by the creditors' and the gaudier. had been
pat to the utmost extremity as to bow they were to keep
the people alive front one day to smother. (Hear.) But
there appeared to be this point of weakness is the noble
lord's ease. He (Mr. Bright) did not think the noble
lord had sufficiently explained to the house how there hap-
pened to be a considerable sneer of rates in many of the most
distressed unions. The hones could easily understand how it
would be difficult, nader the circumstances, to collect from
many of the ratepayers; but when he wee in Ireland some
three or four months ago he took the trouble to make certain
inquiries, in two of the unions at least, and he found that in
those unions the greater proportion of the money which was
in lunar of the rats owing to the guardians, was owing, not
4 the occupiers, but by the owners, of land in those unions.
He learned that in one anion more than half the magistrates
were defaulters in respect of the poor. rats (" Name.") Now,
he took it for granted that the magestrutee were themselves
owners of land. Thee he found that both the members for
the county were defaulter in the payment of their poor rate.
(" Name.") He was told, on what he believed to be good
authority, that one member of the county had made over
to one of his relatives, he believed to his mother, the
chattels which were in his house, so that the poor
law guardians could net take them for the rates.
He found that another gentleman, a mediate, who
had a large house and a park, bad no chattel property, for it
bad recently been sold by auction and bought in by one of
his brothers. He found that another gentleman—a magis-
trate, and a leading man in the union—bed transferred his
stock to his son, and that his sheep had his son's brand on
them ; that they summoned him for the poor rate and that
the magistrates dismissed the case, and that • representation
bad been made to the castle, but no notice had been taken
of it. Is the Carden, the Bain:nob* and the Castle-
bar unions, he believed the greatest portion of the
arrears was due from the owners of the lead,
and not from the occupiers. If that were the case,
the noble lord ought to have taken into c sn-
sideration that these cases had been referred to the authori-
ties at the Clads in Dublin • and he now found from the
best authority that after these defaulters among the resists.
trsey bad been reported to the Castle, there bad been no
adequate notice taken of these complaints. New, he was
not there to raise an objection to the advance of the 300,9001.
They might see it again, or they might net. It it were
the last of these grants, they would be exceedingly glad. The
noble lord called it an " advance," though perhaps it
looked more like a gift. But be did object to a
system under which the poor-law autheritim were not
armed with sufficient powers to obtain the rats from the men
who owned the land, who had In many places exterminated
the people, and who, after all the experience they had
bad, refused to offer their lends to parties who would be
willing to take them on reasonable terms. (" Oh.") He
did not think the noble lord was doing right is taking from
the taus of this country to make up for the arrears of such
men; but he thought that he ought to give to the poorlaw
authorities power to seize the land.
Mr. H. HERBERT had listened with some attention to
the speech of the hon. gentleman, and could not congratulate
him in the words of the poet, that he had

Returned from hie finished tour,
Grown ten times wiser than before."
part it Occurred to him that the hon. gentleman was only
saggesting what had been thought of and written about at
lout 20 yeah ago. It teleran' to the other charges,
he was not there to palliate or excuse the conduct
of those individuals who had been guilty of that which
had been imputed to them ; but he called upon the house
to support him in the claim he made that the bon. gentle-
man should be called on to give the names of the accused.
and the authority on which he accused them He said, if
he did not give up that authority, he stignstiard the at•
tech ell a calumny on the Irish landlords, and the meet
eawardly of ail cilumnise, an anonymous calumny.
pet. DUNNE said he had attended for some years to the
adatinistratioa of the poor law in Ireland, sad he was aware,
as chairman of a board of guardians, of the difficulty of ()al-
lowing rates, and he could safely say that he had not se.
partiality to any one elms. There was a clam from whom it
was difficult to collect rates in Ireland—the absentee.. The
noble li.rd astonished him by talking of the diminution of
expenditure in Ireland. The other night he asserted that
the expense was greater in the year 1849 than in any pre-
vious y. at. The noble lord (Arrested him but he thoueht
him wrong. The official year ended on the 10th Sept., 1849,
and be would answer for it that the expense wee beyond that
of 1848 or 1847, or any previous year. Since September
there had been a reduction.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE observed that the honourable
member for Manchester had fallen into what was not
an uncommon error; he considered that what was really
uncollected rate was arrears. Now, it was not considered
that uncollected rata was an err: sr. All the retinas went
to show that in Ireland the collection was exneuingly clan,
and the larger portion of the arrears was due from the ins I
mediate lesson, because there were no effective means of
proceeding agaiast thew The whole rate in that country
amounted to something man than mesa millions of money,
and of that seven million Were had been actually collects d
and lodged in the treasurer's hands, 96 per cent. (Hear,
hear.) That was really • meet remarkable feet, and he
believed he was correct in stating that there was
no rate in England which was colleeted so closely.
His honourable friend the member for the twenty of
Limerick had alluded to the natiasts entered into with
the Newcastle union. Some correspondence had taken
on that subject with the Poor Law Commissioners,
tut he denied altogether that the Poor Law Commissioners
were answerable. They had no power to interfere. He
quite admitted that the question of these contracts
wee one that required • great deal of care and consideration,
but at the same time In did not think that under the

caretuastances say blame was attached to the commission4n
in that matter. This proposition seemed to have been
received with great favour the gentlemen connected with
Ireland, and, indeed, he sight say by most of the gentlemen
who had addressed the house. They seemed to have arrived
at • state of things when, at all events, some hope was
held out, and them was • fair prospect that they
had seen the wont of that unfortunate trouble
through which Inland had passed. It was true,
se his hoar. and !reliant friend had stated, that
the financial year of 1849 wan more expensive than the
financial year of 1848, but time that time • better state of
things had arise*, and the diminution In the expendi are
since September, 1849, had been marked. In last January
the saving, as compared with January last year, was, he
thought, 70,0001. Ilia noble friend had stated that the in-
crease in the nantben had been ceased by the mel adminis-
tration of the law. He did not think that wis so ; but
every hatpin, weak be nab. He firmly believed that if the
home would semelien Ms shame for the purpose of relieving
the more altllllllll4 lOW/ from that state of debt which was
crippling their eareinisee, they would be doing more to help
them than they could by any other seem, and he was not
without hope the times was not distant when they would be
sidr.supportiag, and AM a more prosperous state of things
is Ireland would prevent the necessity of the.. advances.
(Hear, hear.)

. . .
Mr. MONSELL, as to tM alhlllositi sada by the right
hon. baronet, that the temihmiesen were not responsible
fur the contras% lagilpd Si lOU We attention to the tact that

LAN, was pseud at the doe,
itiossiso ifolooseg y loppeolse thoe.
caught • full and sadefealcoy
ly the Iwo main fee Illsoabgene,
essresallial:air I in he
sad arnshiwg reply he bad bud upon
Be Intstageho MIL gentleman would also
Mlubia ON•• AM ton of two or the*,
aot qualify aa man, however able be
la \ Of is the pantiey &of a.phHosoplioal Wong. might
4ir W. .4. BON. glad. that the Ma member for
Yeembeater La. made the Meager be bad, become therad
been oast with so complete as amwer by the b
authority in that home. It had brought
Vas. shooing glossiest OM Ireland tad paid N
par not ker peer taste, Is the wies of lan
snazamplad diansal. He odd answer It. as the Mail-
man of a board of guardians, that in bis mama no favour or
alkalies was shown to either hadlaeda Of magistrates, of
say other wow ; and ha believed that Me Hest goon of
the rate were generally the meghlmen =CND inied pro.
piston. He holland if the Imo gentleman hod /ahem the
wosWe to inales the mass sown wand have Omm
with regard bluest, V sot all Ike mime ia Inns& He
had Nam* lima It his unpleasant duty in that louse to
WM MN* gosyseitiens mak by her Mneety's
WWI regard to the paor law ia Ireleed.
ElZeTlaid the goveenaent entertained their moat inten-
tions and had spread the burden over a number of lean. He
congratulated Ireland and the government on this return to
joint, and hayed tiny would follow it up by measures in
the same spilt. He mild not entirely agree with the noble
lord that :the pointy of Ireland was rapidly and visibly
dietinhiling. In his union there bad bees sa ionises of 900
mums in Am (menthe. Outdoor relief had been ems-
plainly done away with, he wan happy to say; but the
whole number receiving lodeer relief was 2,700.

the p—
asta that
Mr.

Sir W. SOBIERVIIIE said, that in 'mentioning the pro.
portion of rates collected is Ireland, be had is wane re-
spects overstated the ease, sad in others undentated it. Ho
had said that 96 per esat. of the idols rates bad been col-
looted since the poor law tame into operation, thereby Nad-
ia; the hcuse to understand that four per cent. had been
lest. That was not so; foe he ought to have de-
ducted a portion of the rate now in nouns of col-
!scion. The real state of the case was *le: Of
the rates made previous to the last rare, there
had been 91 per cent., collected and lodged; the remaining
six per cent. was not lad, bat four per cent. of it had been
carried as arrears into the last rate. (Hear, hear.) Of the
entire collection since the law had been in force, only two
per cent., had been declared irreclaimable. (Hear, hear.)
Thrrefore, though he 'sight have overstated the case owe
way, be had rather ondentated it is the other. That was
the real state of things, and it fully bore out the inference hi
had draws. (Hear, bear.)

Mr. BRIGHT said the committee would see at once that
the statement of the tight hon. baronet had nothing
on earth to do with the statement he had made. Everybody
throughout Ireland knew, that to speak of Ireland on the
whole, was an entirely different thing from speaking of the
anions, about which he had given the house in-
formation. Taking the whole of Ireland, the rate
would be found to be low ; and were he to
argue, as some honourable gentlemen had been
arguing, he might say that the government had
very smell cause indeed to come to the house for en ad
of 300,0001. or 600,0001. The whole rate throughout Ireland
was not very heavy, less probably than the avenge of rates in
many. pingo( this country. (Hear.) That afforded no ground
whatever for coming to this house for grants. Leaving that
out of the question, he OUZO to the particular unions. There
were some in which he could not say how large the arrears
were, but the largest portion of those arrears was due from
the owners of land. (" Name.") He bad named three
unions, with respect to two of which he was certain,
and he believed the case was the same in the third
—Clffdse, Ballinrobe, and Cutleber. The reason why he
abstained from naming individuals was, he behoved
there were persons in that list to whom it could not be
Imputed as anything blameable that their rates were not
paid, for such had been the embarrassments of property in
past times, and such the state of the law, that they bad no
funds at their disposal. But that there were such oases I
he was prepared to show. He had taken the par.
titulars from the books of the anion; he had them from
the highest poorlaw authorities in the union ; and he was
as confident as any one could be, on the best evidence, that
what he had stated was correct. He should not give the
names of those gentlemen to the house. (Hear, hear.) He
was quite certain he was pursuing the right course in doing
so. He was oily pointing out a fact or a series of facts to
the government, in order that their attention might be
drawn thereto. He had no wish to make a great public
matter like that a ground of personal attack, or to create El
feeling amongst men, some of whom perhaps might be much
more to be pitied than blamed in this matter. (Hear.)
- - - -

Lord NAAS said the lion. gentleman had stated that cer-
tain proprietors were using all the means in their power to
evade We payment of rates, and that amongst them was one
member of the house. Was it a proper course to refuse the
names of those persons, in order that • vindication might be
made? At lent, he ought to name the union, in order
that some member might move for an inquiry. He had said
that Ireland was taxed to the poor rate an a less degree, on
the Re, than Eogland.

Mr. TRELAWNY said that whatever might be the
pressure of the poor law system here, this country had had
to pay the whole of its own burthens, and onsehalf of those
of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)

Sir H. W. BARHON.—No, no; the four millions is a
loan from the Excheqser.
Mr. THELAWNY said that a loan to Ireland was in
reality a gift. (Laughter.)
_ _ _

Mr. M'CULLAGH thought that hon. gentlemen oppo-
site had unnecatarily identified themselves with the charge
made by the hon. member for Manchester. For one he
felt grateful for the proposition now made by ministers, and
must protest rgainst the insinuation of the hon. member for
Taviatock (Mr. Trslawny), that every loan to Ireland was a
loss to England. Nobody could imagine that the bon.
member for Manchester meant to make a sweeping cherge
against the whole of the landed proprietors of Ireland.
(Hear, hear 1 The rateable property in that country was •
little under 13 millions,and the total chargethereon for the poor
rate fur each of the last two years was about 2a. 6d. in the
pound. Everyone knew this was greater than the ge
in England. (Hear.) If the Irish people showed their
willingnete thus to assess themselves, not only for the current
expense of the poor, but for the repayment of advances, it
wu not fair to charge them with indisposition to repay
the loans. It was most ungenerous and unfair to be
continually repeating this charge. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. HERBERT thought if the charge of the hon.
member for Manchester was true, the parties who were guilty
ought to be shown up and stigmatised.

Mr. BADLEIR said the bon. member for Manchester
had left one point in considerable doubt, probably through
not reading the last amendment of the Irish poor law.
Prior to the act of last session, the power of
guardians to recover sneer. of rates had been vary imperfect
In the last session of parliament a summary power was given
for the recovery of poor rat,' from the owners of land in
Ireland, so that they were now the firs*. charge span the
soil.

Mr. BRIGHT Paid that the clause of the act, whizb
defined what the law was with respect to the recovery of the
rates, agreed with the statement which he had first mad.,
and with the information he had received from the pJ.irlaw
authorities in Ireland (the honourable gentleman
here read the 17th and 18th claos,s of the 14th
and 13:h Victoria, ch. 104)'; the authorities to whom
he referred described the process of law to he exec Jingly
tedious. In one of the unions to which he alluded it wee
stated to him by the vice-guardians that there was extreme
ddfieulty, in consequence of the tardy operation of the law,
in obtaining the payment of the rates, although they did
their best to collect them. Therefore it -as that he said
there ought to be a more rapid mode of recovery if the
g ivernment came to that house to aik for advances.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MUNTZ acknowledged the reasonableness of Irish
members, who were surrounded with so much destitution at
home, in supporting the views of her Maj.sty's government
But there were other parties to be consulted, the industrious
people of England. (Hear.) They had a right to ask bow
long this state of things was to continue ? Whether the go-
vernment was to come year after year to demand grin**
of money for Ireland without ever informing them
what was the matter with that country ? Was the fam ne
never to end ? Were the government to hang their cost on
that peg always ? (" Hsu, hear," and a laugh.) He told
them last session that the government would come to ask for
another grant. Was there any man so credulous as to
believe:that that money would be repaid ? (Hese, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not think the speech
which the bon. gentleman bad just delivered had suffered
much from that delicacy which he stated he Mt when epi ek-
ing of Ireland. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) The hon.
gentleman seemed not to have been present when he made
his statement, because if he had, he would have learned the
reasons why he proposed this advance. The hon. gentleman
called it a grant, because he wid no one would believe that it
would be repaid. They had voted last year a BUlllot *250,0001.
fur the relief of Ireland, and they were told that the method
by which it was to be repaid is obnoxious to the
people of the north who thought it unjust, and that its
injustice would create difficulties to the r.psyment. Well,
but 160,0001 of that sum had been repaid within six
months. (Hear.) That did not show any very extreme
difficulty in obtaining repayments from Ireland. (Hear,
bear.) With regard to the residue, he believed it would
be repaid in a short time. (Hear, hear) He hoped the
hon, member for Tavistock would not divide the house at
that stage, because, as it would be necessary to put the
proposition in the shape of a biH, the hon. gentlemen and
others who objected to it would have ample opportunity
of opposing it. He believed, however, that it w.u.d meet
with the sanction of the house, because the print would be
justified he the nature of the circumstances which called it
forth. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Col. SIBTIIOIP,

Mr. K. O'CONNBLL said, in =ewer to the question@ at
t►e how member for Birmingham, what has been, what is,
and what will be the matter with Ireland, that Ireland was
in her present oondition because the legialatiou of Ireland
had been fur a elu•, then for a sect, and then 4aitt for •
else It was because they had legislated for Ireland in that
home in perfect ignorance of her wants. (Hear )
The resolutions were then rep-mad, and the house
resumed.

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was a read a wood time, and ordered to be eom•
emitted on Monday.
AUSTRALIAN CQLONIES GOVERNMENT BILL.
The second reading of this bill was postponed till Monday.
COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILL.
Oa the motion that tlus bill be read a second time,

Mr. RO CNDELL PALEMEcerose
standing or misrepresentation which had here couple not by any
member of that Muse but elsewhere of the remarks which
had lotion from his hon. and learned friend the reenter for
Coventry (Mr. Turner) the other evening, on the subject of
this bill. It wee well known that his hon. and learned
Wend was aaxious for the reform of the abuses which had
crept Into the Court of Chancery, and If an impression had
been produced an themind of any person that his hon. and
learned friend was desirous of seeing the present state of
things continue, it wee erroneous and unfounded.
Kr. J.BTUART said that the object of this hill wu to
remodel the course of pretties in the Court of Chancery ill
Ireland. He di.l not think there were at that moment four
In the house who knew much on the subject. The
divkleal who presided over the Court of Chancery in Ire-
land, whe held his cake ea the responsibility on which all
the great officer, of the state held their offices, was, he pre.
soured, answerable for the course of practice applicable in
his court; and if any abuse ealsted in his court he was an-
swerable for them, becalse he believed he had full power
to rectify them. There was no attempt to show that they
could not be reformed by him ; and if that were
so, why should that house be called on to in-
taken with the details of his court ? It he
only found two persons to support him, he wou.d
divide the hoses on this measure. Why is not this nee.
sues to be applied to Boghuut ? Because they had in
this country • learned judge presiding over the Court
of Chancery, to whom, however much he (Mr. S•uart)
might differ from him in points, he would say
that the public owed a deep debt of gratitude (Ur the
great patience, the talents, learning, and dignity
with which he discharged his high functions. (Hear, heir )
He wished to know why this bill was necessary for Ire-
land ? They had been legislating for Ireland, ant for the
landed proprietary of Ireland, for many yeah without etc.
(MC (Hear hear.) Year after year they had bills laid nu
the table of that house complaining, and most justly, of the
are Tof the Irish Court of Chancery, by way of 'annoy.
rag they in the last session enacted the Eecumb. red
Estates Bill. (Hear, hear.) What he wished to adorn to
was, that hut year they appointed three commissioners to
preside over a court in which were to be disposed of the
Irish encumbered estates, though by right that duty st otnd
have devolved en the Irish Lied Chancellor. (Heir, beer.)
He (Hr. Stuart) had not the honour of knowing the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland ; Indeed, he was nuacquoin•ed with his
name—(laughter)—but this he did know, that the
trine Lord Chancellor must be one•of the most fortune. of
men, inasmuch as be bad succeeded in inducing the leg,,;e.
tore to appoint three eoramissioners--whows salaries were to
be derived from the pockets of English, and Irish tuison—to
perform the duty, which he is chancellor was hound to
perform. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He dtti24
naniction on that Point. They had encumbered estates in
England as well as in Ireland, and which were sold, without
complaint, by the Lord Chancellor of England, who dis-
charged all the duties incidental to his byei elle., without
the estraneous assistance of commissioners. (Hear, hear.)
But in the case of the Lord Chancellor for Ireland, the cams
was otherwise, and he called on any gentleman
in that house, who might he honoured anus the ac-
quaintance of that high functionaty, to grt up end
defend him, and show to him (Mr. Bann) that he
was in error, when he would most willingly retract.
(Hear, hear.) Ile called on some gentleman to rise in his
place, and in terms calculated to sotto, the common sense of
the large portion of that house, to show why the duties im-
posed on that Irish Chancellor were executed by commit-
sioners instead of by himself. (Hear, hear.) lie sow the
hon. and learned SolicitonGeneral for Ireland in his place,
who, he thought, should have introduced the Kin n,. measure.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—I was not a mim.ter
the house when it was introdaced.

Mr. STUART—WeII, the hon. and learned gtatle-
man was there when the bill was moved for mewl reeding,
and he should have pointed out the horrid abuses com-
plained of under the Court of Chancery in Ireland, lie
(Mr. Stuart) challenged any gentleman in that hoes,
lay or profeseiocal, to describe the nature cf any
abuse to be remedied by the present bill that the
Irish Lord Chancellor had not already the power
to remedy. (Hear, bear.) It had been said in de-
fence of the bill that the Court of Chancery in Ireland list
year had an immense accumulation of landed property to
deal with, and which, for the greater part, was in arse hand.
of receivers. Now he wished to know who had authority
over these receivers, and was bound to see that they did
their duty ? (Heer, bier.) The great scope of the bill was
to alter the mode of pleading in Chancery by bill and
answer to pleading by petition. Now, he did n believe
that the bill was prepartd by his hon. sod learned fritnd
the Solicitor-General for England; yet he would
call OS him to favour the house with his Motion
of chancery practice in Ireland, and the necessity
that existed there fur pleading by petition, instead
of by bill and answer. (Hear, hear.) Chat mode of plead-
ing had been tried before, by • highly lemntd judge, and
had been found, as a general measure, t t have who.ly
failed. The present Solicitor. General vr.ultl recollect that
he and himself had to consider a porti m cf the aft intro-
duced into the house by the late d Sir Samuel
Rimilly, and which act bad a limited, not a genteel,
operation. It was contended that the present measure
wculd have the effect of expediting justice, its well u
cheapening it also. If inch were the case, he (Mr. Stuart)
would be found supporting it; but such a pupposi-ion sac
fallatoas. It did not consist with his (Mr. Stuart'
notion of diminishing expense and expediting j..
tics to adopt any sun course as the present. And as r_-
garded Ireland in particular, he did not see bow it could
hope to succeed; as, by its adoption. Irish gentlemen woul
bee:potting themselves to courses of litigation, which, con-
ducted by discreditable practitioners, would in a few years
completely eat up their properties. (Hear, later.) In con-
clusion, he begged to move that the bill be re►d a second
time that day six months.
Lord J. MANNERS seconded the amendment.

Mr. HBADLAM denied that the Lord Cherie. nor hod the
power to do anything empowered to be done by this bill, and
contended that the bill contained within it the germ of that
which would render the Court of Chancery suits ble to the
wants of the country, and more in keeping with the •p.rit
of the age. (Rear, hear.)

Mr. KEOGH did not think it very courteous of the ton.
member for Newark to say that there were then in the
house only four persons who understood this querion, par•
titularly as he (Mr. Keogh) observed the At:orcry-
, General for England, the Solicitor-General for Ireland, t
hon. and learned members for Coventry, Plymouth, and
Southampton, and the hon. and learned member for Newark
himself in their places. The learned gentleman had found tauit
with him (Mr. diem ,h) and others, for having supported in
the last session the Encumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill. He
(Mr. Keogh) believed that that bill had been already pro
ductive of benefit, and he did not regret the course he had
takeu respecting it. (Hear, hear.) The remark/ of
the honourable and learned gentleman in reference
to th't bill only showed how ignorant he was of
its operations. The honourable and learned gen.
teem asked, why did not the Chancellor of Ire-
land reform his own court 1 although he confessed him-
self ignorant of that learned personage's n me. Now, he
(Mr. Keogh) and other hon. members from Ireland. were
expect. d not only to know who the present Chanced 1' of
England was, but those who had been ch mcellors, and
even who were to be. (Loud laughter) He was not is
the confidence of the Chancellor for Ireland, but he might
say that there wee no one who knew him, who did cent sts
respect him. The hon. and learned member for Newark
asked why ho did not reform his own court ? He (Mr.
Keogh) recolleved sitting on a commission with S.r k.
Sudden, that eminent legal authority, who said, that al-
though he had made great reforms in the practice of tile
Court of Chancery in Ireland, yet that ill, re were certain
other reform., which he did not attempt, because he hod
felt himself controlled by long established usage, and
doubted, besides, it he had authority to terry them
into operation. (Hear, hear.) He thought that alone outfit
to answer the hon. area learned gentleman's attar. on
the Irish Court of Chancery, and the opinion that it emits
to reform itself.. If the hon. and learned gentleman tad
read this bill he (Mr. Keogh) could not conceive how be was
able to doubt ita efficacy in lessening the delays of Chancery
stir'. It proposed a simple petition, with the opportunity
of putting the plaintiff's case at once before the court, and
c mtained a new ingredient in lieu of the present absurd and
oft-con temned system of cross interrogators—tamely. this
viva rote examination of witnesses. If the hon. and teamed
gentle man meant to deny that that would be a less ex-
pensive mode of proceeding, then must he, inderl, be
entscoured of the Court cf Chancery ; hut he (Er. Is..ert.)
believed he would much prefer that others, and not the hon.
and learned gentleman himself, should enjoy its luxuries.
The bill, in his humble opinion, would save firth time. sad
money. It gave full authority for providing
that dishonest defendants should not put plaint. Is
to unnecessary casts. In an xtensive class of case in
which large costs were daily incurred by preliminary pro-
ceedings, it prevented those expenses by simplifying and
reducing the proceedings. He was quite satisfied it would
greatly benefit the people of Ireland, and ire that opinion he
VMS Me the majority of Irish members would concur.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. COCKBURN highly admired the bill, and hoped
that a like measure of reform would be speedily introduced
into the English Chancery.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL replied. He said the
greater part of the speech of hie hon. and learned friend the
member for Newark had been satisfactorily answered by the
hon. and learned members for Athlone and Southampton.
He entirely agreed with them in thinking that it we,
possible that the reforms contemplated in this bill
could be carried out by the Lord Chancellor at Ice-
land ; and he ventured to state that his hon. and Ii silted
friend did not mean to assert that they could n hie
a lawyer. (Hear, hear.) His hon. gra
learned friend would not have made the in..irect attack
which he had done on the Lord Chancellor had he been
better acquainted with the country and with the adminie•
tration of its laws. In hie objections to the bill be had.
I/min
fact, beerevery sparing. (Hear.) All that he ithe.So.i.l-
tor-erit) could
upon petition a defendant could not put his own case upon
ndi-
davit, while upon answer he might do so. lie said that lay-
men were not sufficiently acquainted with the quistion to
form a correct opinion, and he appeared to thick
that in using the words" bill " and "answer
he was employing mystical impressions which
would prevent the house from proceeding with the
bill. Now, what was, In feet, the difference between a bill
and an answer? It was positively a difference in name
only. He warned the house that if they meant to attempt
to carry out any legal reforms they must nut allow tierce
after lawyer to get up and tell them that they were not able
to understand the matter. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) They
might depend upon it that if there were anything that could
not he reduced to the plain principles of common sense, Via
made intelligible to ordinary understandings, the reason was
that it was port of a technical system, invented tor the

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