The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-10-24 00:00:00

THE APPROACHES TO THE RIVER

Several communications in reference to this subject
;re read. In the pilots' memorial, which they for-
trded through Mr. William Hughes, they strongly

ented t

a like protest

ad from

Irnrey

shipowner,

Association (who communic

chairman, Mr. Greaves), expressed no
opinion on the contemplated project, but requested that
before any plans were adopted, they might be afforded
the opportunity of considering them. A memorial,
signed by i,500 persons residing in Cheshire, but having
places of business in Liverpool, was read, praying that
the suggestions in Mr. Laird's communication as to the
improvement of the approaches to the river, might be
adopted and acted on. Mr. Laird's communication was
again read, and
The Chairman explained that they should now
resume the adjourned discussion, on the resolution of
the sub=committee, declaring that at present it was
inexpedient to close the George's Dock basin.
Mr, Lockett moved that the resolution of the sub-
committee be confirmed.
Mr. Smith seconded the motion.

through ti.

Mr. Bold, in moving an amendment to the motion,
regretted that they were not prepared. in consequence
of the plans and model which they now saw not having
been at an earlier day placed in the room, to come to a
vote on the merits of the subject that day. He would
not, therefore, go so far as he at first intended, but would
move a resolution which he thought no member of the
committee would object to. In doing that, however, he
begged to state that it was not at all so far as he
intended to go in this matter, and he made that state-
ment in order that be might not be accused hereafter of
doing that of which he did not give proper notice, and
of misleading the committee as to his intentions. A
great deal had been said to him in private in regard to
the propriety of this subject emanating from the council.
that was an objection which he could not understand ;
for, if the legislature obliged them to provide for
the accommodation of the shipping of the port and
the traffic in connection with it, he could not see
why they were not also compelled to provide safe
approaches to the river, in order to facilitate that traffic ;
and be was convinced, putting Cheshire altogether
out of the question, that when they went to
Parliament, they would be compelled to do something
far more objectionable to their feelings than was pro-
posed in the plans now before them. He did not mean
to say that he would pledge himself to those plans in
their entirety, but he did think that they were not all out
of order in considering them, even though the council
bad not taken the initiative in regard to them. A great
deal, too, had been said about the difficulty there would
be in docking in the George's and Prince's Docks, in the
event of the George's Dock basin being filled up, and a
letter in support of it was read from Mr. Hughes; but
the committee would remember that he was the gentle_
man who had been the laughingstock of the parliamen-
tary committee last session, and in consequencz of whose
evidence they (the dock committee) had been obliged to
put up another man, to show that he (Hughes) did not
at all understand the subject. (Laughter.) They would
recollect also, that when the landing-stage was first
contemplated, they received a letter from the pilot
committee, stating that if it were erected, it would be
impossible ev to dock a ship in the George's Dock ; and
that prediction not having been fulfilled, the opposite
course was taken, and they were told that the George's
Duck basin was the best harbour of refuge in Liverpool.
He did not mean to say that he would entirely adopt
Mr. Hartley's plans. They were merely a sketch,

Mr. Hartl;y would, no dou'bt, be prepared to alter or
modify on the recommendation of the pilot committee ;
but he did not say that, in making a new basin further
to the south, they would be making a better harbour of
refuge than even the present George's Dock basin, while
they would greatly enlarge the quay space there. Much
had also been said about the depth of water; but if
gentlemen would consult Lieut. Parks, they would find
that there would be more water, without any sluicing
power being brought into action, at the proposed new
entrance than at the Albert dock' entrance, about which
he had never heard of any difficulty That objection,
therefore, could not be sustained, and should, therefore,
not be considered. Among the advantages of the plans
was to be counted the fact, that they could be carried out
without it being at all necessary that the contemplated
improvements under the Corporation Act, of 1854, should
be executed. He did not want at present to pledge the
committee to any plans whatever, but he did
say t ..at,
inasmuch as the leases of the Mann Island property
would fall in by the Ist of June, 1358, with theexcep.
tion of a publichouse or land, the leases of which had
to run for 20 or 30 years more, they should now deter.
mine how they could best turn it to account. What he
asked the committee to do now was, even supposing
that the high level road cost between £40,000 or X 50,000,
to appoint a sub-committee to confer with the
finance
committee of the council on the subject, to see whether
the corporation would meet them in regard to it. If
they were not, then there was an end of the whole
scheme, but at the same time he thought that it was the
duty of the council to meet them on it. Even supposing
that the high level road cost £40,000, it should be
carried at an elevation at least of 20 feet, and they would
accordingly have 14 large arches to let, for which he was
informed by Mr. ,Tames Holme, (than whom no one was
better qualified to form an opinion on such a sub-
ject,) they would obtain from £lOO to £l2O a year—the
total sum thus realised being sufficient to pay the whole
interest of the cost of £40.000, while the road itself went
over land of their own, and would not interfere with the

laying out of any fresh dock. As to the enlargement of I
George's Dock, he found that its receipts for the last
year amounted to £10,500, and if by enlarging it
they could obtain from £lO,OOO to £ll,OOO more
they would be repaying themselves for the improve:
ment, independent of the advant
would derive from having such

the tots

More than that, I

houses that would be buil

h they

centre Of

ike to see ware-

now to go into t
Dock 1

tie was not anxious
question of filling up the George's
1, but would ratber move that it be referred to a
üb-commit tee, a course which would give the shipowners
and pilots full opportunity to see the plans, and express
an opinion on them. Time, however, pressed in regard
to their going to Parliament. He was anxious to keep
out of Parliament as long as possible ; but if they went
to Parliament this session, he would recommend that
they should simply go for a money bill, and if opposed
by any body seeking. to alter the ennstitntinn of their

trust in any way, then to at once withdraw it. By
adopting this course they would be showi,g to the town
that they were willing and anxious so give the public

improved approaches to the river— approaches which
everybody admitted it was most desirable that they should
have. In conclusion, Mr. B uld moved, as an amendment,
that a subcommittee of five members be appointed to
confer with the finance committee on the matters
referred to in Mr. Laird's letter.
Mr. James Holme seconded the amendment.
The Chairman said that he agreed with Mr. Bold,
that it was their duty to confer with the corporation on
any plan that they might have in view for the improve—
ment of the approchea to the river ; but inasmuch as
the corporation bad more particularly under their
care the accommodation of the public, among
which might be included facilities for crossing to
and from Cheshire, he could not but think that
the corporation were the parties to take the prim-
ary step in this matter. The dock committee was

)ose, primarily, of accommo
datinzr passengers across the river, hut for providins

constituted, not for the p

accommodation for the shipping of the port. r He did
not deny that they should also consider the accommoda-
tion of passengers passing across the river ; but the way
in which the subject should come before them was by
reference from the corporation. He had no doubt that
the corporation would take up the subject, for it was a
most important question ; bat with them it should
originate, just as any project for the accommodation of
the shipping should originate with the committee.
When the corporation took up the matter, and requested
their opinion on it, it would be time enough to consider
the project; but if they new passed Mr. Bold's amend-
ment, they would saddle the dock estate with an expense
which ought not to be bores by it. They all knew how
the landing stage had been a charge on the dock estate,
and yet everybody agreed that it was an expense which
ought to have been borne by the town. (Hear, hear.)
This was a matter of a similar kind, and, as the expense
should be borne by the town, the project should
originate with the corporation. He should be happy
to co-operate with the council in providing
better approaches to the river, but the primary duty of
the committee was, to provide for the wants of the
shipping of the port, and to that duty they should
chiefly confine themselves. The present, no doubt, was
a very serious and important question. and one that
ought to be well dizcussed, but still his feeling was, that
it was a subject which ought first to be taken up by the
council ; and for that reason, he thought the resolution
proposed by Mr. Bold was inexpedient.
Mr. Anderson observed, that it appeared from Mr.
Laird's letter, that the finance committee had thrown
the initiative on them. If that were the case, they were
required to do something in the matter.

The Chairman : But it does not follow, because the
finance committee refer it to us, that we should take
it up.

Mr: Barber considered that there was much force in

the arguments advanced by Mr. Bold, in favour of their
moving in the matter, but it would appear, from the
chairman's remarks, that they resisted it merely on the
ground that it was an imposition.

The Chairman : I clonnot say that there has been any
imposition on the one side or the other. I say that the
landing stage was an imposition, but I do not look
upon this matter in that light.
Mr. Barber admitted that the cost of the landing
stage had been unfairly imposed on them, but he did
not think that a sufficient reason why they should not
now consider how best these plans could be made useful,
and available to the public. He did not mean that
they should commit themselves to the plans, but, at the
same time, he thought it would be inadvisable to com-
mit themselves to the sub-committee's resolution, and
say that, under any circumstances, it would be inex-
pedient to fill up the George's Dock basin. They had
only the public interest to serve, and there could not be

a doubt but that that interest would be promoted by
improving the approaches to the river. At present it
was really sometimes dangerous to cross them, from the
manner it which lorries were loaded, and sooner or
later the subject should be considered.

Mr. Brocklebank did not see the necessity, at the
present moment, of following the course which Mr.
Bold had pointed out. He thought it was possible to
adopt a middle course. They might withdraw the
resolution of the harbour masters' committee, and also
Mr. Bold's amendment, and inform Mr. Laird that the
dock committee was quite willing, at any time the town
council should consider it desirable, to appoint a com-
mittee to meet the council upon the question.
The Chairman thought there could be no objection to
that course, which would put the thing in a right
position.
Mr. Brocklebank said that was not the time to con-
sider the question which had been brought before the
committee in what he considered an improper manner.
He had not had an opportunity of looking at the plans
at all, in which Mr. Bold had a great advantage, and he
should enter his protest against the system which
appeared to be rising up in the committee of individual
members of the committee, without the authority of the
body, bringing forward plans—or rather of the surveyor
bringing forward plans—at the instance of individual
members, without any authority or resolution of the
whole body of the committee.

ilr. Hartley, the surveyor: I beg to set myself right.
I have not brought the plan at all before the committee.
The plan was brought before the works' committee some
three or four years ago, and since then up to this time
it has lain perfectly dormant.
Mr. Bold said he heard that the plan existed, and that
it was a very good plan. He, therefore, moved that it
should be produced publicly in the committee, and it was
agreed that it should be produced. In the first instance,
he had brought it before the harbour-master's committee,
but, for what reason Le did not know, it was not produced
there.

Mr. Brocklebank said, there was no resolution of the
committeee authorising the plan. Upon the abstract
question, he observed, that, with the evidence before him,
he waq decidedly opposed to the filling up of the
George's Dock. He should not feel indisposed, when
the proper time arrived, to take into consideration the
whole of the arrangement of Mann Island, and the
whole of the estate which lay south of the George's
Dock.

Mr. Anderson could conceive nothing more moderate
than Mr. Bold's motion for a committee. He could not
see what harm it could do, that a committee should be
formed to consider the question.

Mr. Smith contended, that Mr. Bold's drift was to
force that committee to take the initiative, and, therefore,
to go to Parliament, knowing, that with reference to
that special question, it was too late for the council to
take up the question. lie did not at all dispute that
it might be necessary to have something done
with reference to the subject under discussion.
But, although Mr. Bold had been very active for the last few
weeks with reference to the introduction of that plan, be had
in this discussion carefully and studiously avoided touching
upon the plan at all. On that plan, however, ho (Mr.
Smith) felt it necessary to say something. He declared,

had never been paid for out of the funds of the estate. It was
true that some two or three years ago, when Mr. Earle
brought forward a motion in the council on the subject of the
closing of the George's Dock basin, the attention of the com-
mittee was directed to the subject, and a conversation took
place in the committee of works upon it, when that cow•
mittee decided against the project. At that time there were
so

suggestions thrown out as to what might be done
supposing that the Mann Island property were taken into the
hands of the committee when the leases had expired, and
that the Corporation would be willing to carry out the plans
contemplated in their bill of 1854, for widening the thorough-
fare along the whole lipo of the docks. It was felt that in

that case a re-arrangement of the property between the
Salthou,:l Dock and the BrineOs Dock might be a matter-of
consideration, and that the necessity of providing improved
facilities of approach to the Landing-stage might bo taken into
consideration. In the course of the conversation—for there
was no motion before the committee—an individual member
bad certain ideas of his own upon the subject. He broached
them, and they appeared very practicable. Nothing more was
said or done about the matter, and he did not think tiny
member of the committee heard of it again until a fortnight
oaerldi.ste It existence, and
never
ago, when Mr. Bold discovered, in some Way, that the model
insistedrder
ued h upon its being produced
was
com dnbefore wasthe
inb y
the committee,
1 not the property of thecommittee. Ile quite agreed with the
remarks of Mr. Brocklebank, and he did not think it right
that any gentleman should get the
surveyor, unknown to the
committee, to make a model, and , then have it brought in there
and assumed to be the property and the adopted scheme of the
committee. Ho did not object to any individual having a
model prepared. If Mr. Hartly was pleased to give up his
time, and that any gentleman chose to be at the expense of
compensating him for it, and Mr. Hardy made him a model
in connection with any particular scheme he might have,
of course, under such circumstances, no one could make
any objection. But he did object to individual members
having models and plans made, and then attempting*
to force them on the committee as if they were the property of
the committee, or something which the committee had been 1