The Express.
London, England, 1850-06-07 00:00:00

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Ns
fee
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"^ by the M
eet emodmi__
he mild warmly sedsmiamil.at ease ed
lamt Sisk work. sad le be tluows as their
steel to Mew the ream ter seek a eels-
thrown a. a kegs meashatering
They were told that great tam
Maestros' the meths of 'weektrat w ulafs. H. vblegialedel
OM wee the awe In the meth of lighted tuft
meat sad it wee evident. ismMr: Helmer* Alislisa
set, Z
tie system as worked there wee setauded with groat Meier
trailZ =l/41:11.8.inspolitgari tiro
west wishes'. at Its fa the moesiap, sad saltiest'
lalliesstiege hk eke menisg. The weans, of entree, MA
their hour sad a half for meals, and they were Bent him
mill es dalwase periods of dm darts eider that tbay
sot yolk Men theta W ten hears. It was (MR
that • systems( this dmmipM wee attended nil&
esevenienes of halts the
_maple* thrown WU se
streets to their pat demersiatioe. Bat this wie not tlh
lank of workieg by relays, but the halt of tie system ay
which the relay were worked. la his saintry them was it
totally different lesion: The mills worked for Meese
hours, and the people were out of the mills for three coo-
weenie bolus ; and this system had not met with the slightest
objection ham the operatives, and was approved
4ofe=
Steward, the hapset*, ef famories. (The ben. g
nod as entrain Item Mr. eteward's report to that
He (Mr. Mist) maistaised that the blushes wee
ea them (the Sosete4 sad that the millownema.
his part of the 'matey would be seised U
so dealt with. The mills in the north of
won owned by penises of large capital, set
well knows that brie capitalism had greet
over small ospitibm, sod it was tie:dots awasisty
that small capitalists Mould use every exeetica, sad pat
forth ell their energies. to compete with their more fortimato
brethren. That had ben the as hitherto; they had
unrestricted, sad they had ben able to keep hulk Web
above water by the great exertions they had made. Bat
there was another dised2ti rs a. Tao millet ICI:3
were all water mills, asp by rive which wen
filled by ;moue torrents, and were
almost run dry. The manufacturers had been compelled Is
erect small steam power is order to enable them to work eat
the fifteen hours allowed by law, and sow they wire tiM
that they mast shut up Saar mills at the end it
to leers. Coals in their ematry were so &et that
they coald not work the factorise is times like thelk.
In inflamer the water roe exceedingly low ; is winter them
were great torrents, and the mills were soinetinlz=
by ice Sr • length of time; so that It would be
for them to recover the last time by Um permute. week
an extra hoar a day lee dee days in the week. Apia* that
they had to onspete with the mill. of the north of England,
where, the inspector stated, nothing had been lost by the
shortening of time, athey were enabled, by greater energy
and driving their nsehisse at a greater rata, to manufacture
as large a quantity of goods in ten hours as they had formerly,
dons in a lamer time. It wee impossible for the manufac-
turers in his district to Masse* their speed a single lash ; they
must go plodding on at the rate only which the ripply of
water would allow and yet they were told that they were
placed re en equality with the mills of instead, and that if
would be a great hardship to allow them wren longer holm:
He appealed to the home against this injustice. The system
of relays was no new system; it had anted is various forms
for thirty years; and sow the manufastories which had prac-
tised it inecessfully were at ones to be proscribed by this
change of system. Another objeeti amble part atlas mar
are was that which fixed the hoar for the annesessemest
sad stopping of the mills. In winter, it was tameable be
my seemly when a water mill could commence work; tie
ISO prevented it; and is the dry season it was impcssible
Ile the time of stoppage, as the water might run after the'
engine had working. It was carats that the
measure, it carried in this lona, would rain the
small mill-owsers, and throw a. large population enUrek
out of work. It was said that me law ought to mast* sa
the soar try ; bat when that law spewed differently in Mt
Went parts of the °pastry, it was evident it could sot nit
the whole. He protested spine the extension of the bill le
his part of the country ; and es the beat means of provisolog
it he would move the following amendste et

Thstit OA eel he lawful kr meg persons sad freaks to be
euesispal
lilt week le any faeltry ihr more Asa tea daily,
between" m les in the mmisku awl balked nighto'dock
in the rwardeg; eel ft shall he kohl for sad young pm-
eons mid Mears to work by ens et Mg, ; moviasal away;
ass seek ern set or rap shall, dewing the beers between
hag-mat Ire Is the minks end baltpea eight In the swedes, he
ahem teens the kineykra period Mart Ism than three mmerouties
boars ; provided slat theta the period of work cluck
pang per see shell Ewe mad *tit unwed ea boars, az.
elusive aimed betwesa tbeheurs bait-paw Bee in the mom.
W sad ker be the
Sir 0. GREY said the amendment was directly eon.
Wary to the whole spirit and purport of the bill. (Hear,
beer.) He quite admitted that a general law of this kind
might operate with some inequality in different parts of
the country; but that was an objection not to this bill
only, but to all legislation on the subject. (Hear, hear )
The hon. geatleman had raised the whole qtasstion—whe-
ther there should be any Itekearion at all on the subject,
or, at all events, whether it should apply to mills worked
by water purer, or to those situate in Scotland. If he
thought there was • special cue for exemption, the best
muds would be to preppie it in a separate clause,
not to propose an alteration of the messure, ea.
beefy different from its object, which would have the
effect of sanctioning redeye throughout the whole kingdom,
subject only to the qualiSeatio• that the hands should be
about three bouts daring the day. Looking at its physi-
cal efface, the relay &yam was unobjectionable ; but when
its moral sleets were remoidered, also the object unless-
pisted by parliaieut la pogo, the ant of 1111T—nanasi/,
to create the evening hes» to the factory weaken,
an object which was -productive of great advantage—be
could not admitteee principle of relays. The insertion of
this clause would predate a very material alteration of the
' law as it stood, and it would be better to leave the lair in
its present state than to unseat to a distinct legislative
enactment that for 15 hour. then parties might be kept
away from their homes. With respect to water mills,
there was a clause to be considered hereafter in whisk
the eoeultteei might consider whether it was desirable to
begin at a later hour is winter. There was Wu a clause
with reference to nuking up. time, which had been lost,
wheat* by a defickat of an uver-ehundant supply of water.
He certainly could not consent to this proposal. (Heu.)
Mt. ELLIOT said be hut apt made the statement solely
with reference to Scotland. If the right hon. gentleman would
allow him to introduce a clause 'unseen, the district be
had referred to, be would be most happy to irks the sugges-
tion and withdraw the clause he had now prop eed.
Mr. FERGUS said that if one thing was more to be de-
precated thin another. it was different laws for different
parte of the country. should not only vote against any
restrietioa of the Ten Hoar. Act, bat, adder any circuits-
steams, he should vote egaiast the proposition of the hon.
member.fot Selkirk. Hi .regrettod that the right boa, ha
roust (Sir G. Orey) should have given the sanction of his
wows mai the government% authority to any departure what
ever fyout the Tee Hours Act. (lieu, hear.) Before sane-
'lowing the hal of the noble lord the member for Bath (Lord
Ashley) the right hon. beroset should have known-whet
was his own meaning, and what was the opinion of the
legislature by the enactment 0,1847. If it was the intention
of the ltlis!atur• to allow the systtm of relays, thrbetter
course would have been to bring in a bill declaring that
such system Auld be mudded. If it Was the intention of
the leglehitare to limit the 'abider of women and children to
ten hours, la its ordiaary sense, within reasonable bounds
luathsr Iseishition would have been better lit alone. It
could not have been Intended that the tan boars' labour
required from women and children should W aggravated by
being done at untimely hours He would therefore rite for
any proposition continuing tie Ten Hoare Act.
Mr. EDWARDS saki he represented one of the met
populous districts is the We.t /X ding (Haden) ; be was
Mewl/ a mill owner, had livid in the manufacturing dl..
trick' all his lite, and nedmeatumi their intermits as well es asy
one. When he had the honour of woodier/ the declaratory
bill of the noble lewd .ha member for Bath he hardly 's-
peeded that that serapers would be so sun abeinduried by the
Bede lord. That noble ford sou considered their champion
by a great parry, and they could see no reason for their
being deserted. It was not for him to rpeo.late on the
rearm which had ielkentod the noble lord in thus nut
anoint the enbetinetien of moths r bill for his own. It was
sufficient 1 ir him t t protest spirit it in the names of the
operatives (Hear, bear.) The petitions for and against
the kill clearly showed the feriae. of the operatives. They
were in the proportion of about 1,000 "n6,whilelbeeignatures
were le the prupordon of about 1,000 to 3 tle was ceriain
that the balk of toe pnmehrims in West Riding were
grNetly eatnefKi Wit[l:ll,l declaratory act of the noble lord
the member for Bath as originally Ur° 'wad, and had it
net been fir that celebrated letter wtiCh appeared in •
monies journal from "A Kaiefamierer," be believed the
mill owners and menefectureis would have been perfectly
everiseeiled to it also. S one, than the bill before the
hums should become the law of the land he would see it
thrown out alto,ether, aw.t thin ley Inn. gentlemen who TIN
prawn- ad manufacturing dietriata wit what their ormolu• me
would say about it during he rietea, I Hear 1
Lord ASHLEY laid be wished to make one remark is
to the • 'urea u a had puisueil on this bill ; acrd he
would never again Muir-, oh th' suli.ei In that houw.:
The hon. gentlemen who heel last 'yokes s..id that the
operatives had beta deserted by one whore they had beg
considered Ili their cheopii n. He it fold nnly say that he
had never smoldered himself their ekampirm; he did eon-
, alder himself their friend; and he thiekeed to them bible
God that he had done :ha- which, to Illsjudgesent. ante:o
the beer tor their an : every is C.. ding hour, and
ammeecieg fah lligrner. convinced him that, by Odd'e
treming, he had bees enabled to judge rightly. (Hear,
. hear.) It was teat that ha had aseritiewl Ovum ',mkt*,
tut • pestle maa held deer in the nines of this rest
questa°. ; and he had now concluded his esreer b swat:o-
bis that alga was to him most dear of all—fee It seemed

- pepullaties•
„, sere thei4
and pupil 616126117. The Tees..
seeied, la so it nu of Nies es to he•
to mid Memel statstelnitell sapped of ' •
u ehjeetsd to tie latistaresee Ida labour Whisk the !id
MN. lbw home - would mute, isslisnord Nu Mali
Imp Mae sloths amMissethy sit of prilement.
ifiaJOMMT la.ill apes the eammimeat se ,ak
- to versos their lime, thereike it should hove
siITW-Itlon to hi power.
11r. J. WM.LIAMS whist the hoe. Member who neve&
amosilmost woslialate • toe how the
Mosilsmalliawiek shish ks pmetstei that algid had
dig et Wane ha imbientsel thee: it wag get up hyria
aseters—that the urea were sompllel to up it, tool tisk
slay had bees dismissed from their emplemout for Ilat
as. A meeting had bass held ti thitoira hall on the
.ad it declared by ■ mejoeltY of tsar to one @vim"
Mr.
esisient
Mr. BUlOT.seld thek he was swam that a petition dl
a dice/eat elaramer frost that whisk he senate& to the
house bad best entsisted to the amble UM the member far
BAth, sad being anxious to know the truth if the matter,
he preposal to the mobilo lord to goes Estrielt, sad tel snake
Mosby. The noble lord aot babe able to eseemptay We.
M went himself, MA seek west nista isone, the
remit of which wee, that Im moertained as °lm-
pulsion had • been used to auk/ the operatives sip
the ?Sitio he probated, and that only tom ,
manures signed the petition ..trusted to the noble led.
Tliatutitis was signed by others' who declared to hie shit.
duty slimed it la Nosiest* of the reel Mees of the as, ask
that the allegations it matelaed were greatly exaggerated.
(" Hear, bier," sad cries d " Divide.")
Mr. B. lAINISOM ousidsred that ilejeethe had hem'
dose to his noble tried, Lad Adds', by the Ism semis
for Haifa:. It wee true that the gourd body of
would prefer the TIM Roars Bill without say 'aria:
but nevertheless they were grateful to tho *obi
lord ter what he hid dose, sad they Wt sally grateful for
the exertions he wee now making to settle Nis vued and
dillmit question. (Meer, hear.) He thought the noble lord
was using wilily is seceptiog this ocesprombe ; and be tr4s
soafries the operatives of Yorkshire would feel es gratotet
to Al. es .thiry had bessolore dam, (Base, hese.) He
should joie the noble lord is oppoolag the arwtudasest.

Mr. SRO !MERTON said that ►owever melees the hoe.
member Mr Baits: might M is the rinse of the operatives,
he believed that the attempt to any out his views to the
fall extent would only ead la the defeat of his own totes-
dons. (Hsu, hear.) Ye should therefore oppose the amt.
meat. (Cries of " Divide, divide.")

Mr. BRIGHT said he was any that a question of this
magnitude had the ansfortune of being discussed at a
time when members did not like to pay say at-
tention to a subject which regained investigation sod
thought. (Hear.) Bat depend upon it this question was
well worthy of being discussed and nellerstsed by the house.
(Hear, bear.) He was not then 'dog to sake lapis the
general q.estinn of the ball of 1E47, but would entles
himself strictly to the motion before the house. The emend.
meat proposed by the hoc. member for:Roxtearghsbire in-
volved this question—not whether rising persona and
women were t. be worked for more tins tea hours • day,
but whether in suryng oat this system it was to be made
imperative on all adults sad even ma machinery that they
aho.ld sot work for more than ten hours. (Hear, hear.)
Th. hon. member for Roxburghshire proposed a plea by
which they might obtain all the objects which the house bed
ever proposed to iteelf—that was to say, the limitation of the
hours of labour for children and women of any age to ten
hours, without absolutely restricting the labour of adults
and manner, to the same Lumber of hours. (Hear,
hear.) Every member of that house would admit that it the
object of parliament could be attained with regard to chit-
dreg and women, without putting an end to the working of
adults and machinery at the ezpiration of ten
hours, it would be worth while to attend to any proposi.
ries for that purpose, mid to establish it by law. (Hear.)
He wool t give the sommittes two eases to show what the
result of the bill would as if paned into • law. He bad
received the following fans from some large manufacturen
is the county of Somerset. They furnished him with the
number of persons at work in their mills, and said that
the moment this bill pared from 30 to 40 persons would
be discharged from their employment, and this in a parish
or rather cluster of parishes when there was an mem of
pauperism, and romplaiats of want of employment.
(len, hear.) Here was another case. The Messrs. lial-
-001112.0111 had a large cotton manufactory at Portlaw in the
county of Waterford. Their expenditure was 100,0001 a
year, and they bed worked for the het 3 or 4 years by relay.
bonus they bed not been sorely permitted but encouraged
by Mr. 13:eward the inspector. (Hear.) They declared that
they would have experiensed • lose for the last 4yean bad they
not been permitted to keep their machinery at w rk for a
longer period than they would be enabled to do under this
bill. They state that on the very day that this measure
passed into • law, more than 100 penes@ who were now
regularly employed every day, wet days and dry, with their
wags contently paid every week or every fortnight, would
be discharged from the mills and thrown back into that mass
of misery and pauperism which uofortuostely spread over
too large a portion of that part of the United Kingdom.
(Hear, hear.) Now, when they were called on to pay for
the support of Irish paupers, when hon. gentlemen from
Ireland complained that the poor law was oppressive, was it
right or ressosable that they should mime to a deterroinatioa,
without any inquiry, without any investigation, by which
from 100 to 120 persona would be discharged from their em-
ployment and prevented* from earning their own living ?
Mr. W. 2. FOX said that a mint committee would mop. n
the whole question of factory labour which had been already
decided by the legislature. (Hear.) As he had been given
to understand by the Intent of relays, two beads *ere cm.
played to do the work of one, so that it hammed the amain
of labour. Bat besides this they had it on the authority of
the factory inspectors that with the relay system it would be
impossible to prevent the evasion of the law. (Hear, bear.)
Bat he apprehended that the committee had nothlnt 10 do
es this ocessiou with the general question, but with the
faith and honour of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) The
bill of the late hon. member for Oldham (Mr. Fields.),
whether it was a boon or a compact—a.d it had bean re-
garded in both lights—had been, if it was the one, accepted
with gratitude by the operatives, and if It was the other,
had been by them faithfully observed. (Hear, hem.) He
had no hesitation to ?sleeting the amendment (Rear.)
I Mr. 13. CRAWFORD said that he felt it to be Ids duty to
option the amendment. He regretted to oppose his boa.
friend the member for Manchester; but, from the inten-
tions which he received from Rochdale, it was evident that
the operatives there cleared the Ten Hours Bill nein% of
justice lied an act of gond faith. (Hear, hear.) • a
For the amendment

Against it
The amendment wee suordingly lost.
Lord ASHLEY observed that a limitation lad been 1m
piled on the hours of adult female Muir. He bud that in
ease quints of the omission of the words "so children "
from the bill, that elase would his compelled to ease to work
at half-past flu in the morning, and not he disesimed before
eight in the evening; whereas the adult females voitld not
have to come to work 'before six In thi burning and would
be dismissed at six in the evening. (Hear.) He felt certain
that their being overlooked was a mete omission, and he
therefore begged to sou the insertion et the words on
child," in the twelith line of the era clause. (HU/, helot)
air 0. GREY begged a soy the omission was not acct
'dental, hut that all afterstions in reference to children were
purposely left out of the bill. The object of the bill of the
noble lird opposite (Lord Ashley) wu to require
that the labour of all young children should
ha senthaus. Now, In ninety•uute out if every
hundred caws under the bill of his noble friend,
labour ^ cold commence at six in the morning
..and terml• ate at half-past five in the afternoon ; and if
that were extended to children continuously it would be an
extension of the limitation of labour. The present bill did
not extend the limitation; the ehildren were left in the exact
position in which they were after the passing of the twelve
hours bill, with the exception of being worked at present by
'Aug, the intervals bring devited to attendance at school.
(Hear. hear.) He therefore thought that they would ha
departing from the object and spirit of the bill were they to
temeent to the inrodastion of the limitation • suggested by
Wa noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY observed that his bill did not content-
plate any limitation of labour to the hour of six
' in the afternoon. He wished to • know if children of
tender years shoild not be permit to enjoy the same
indwigenee as adult women; A gra number of Millownere
were in tutelar of that comm.
air 0. GREY—DaIy =a or two.
Lord A.BIILEY was la ?omission of a later from a moot
respectable and infletesael millowner in H.lncheeter, in
which he sincerely wished names 4 his (Lord Ashley's)
exertions, and stated that public opinion oaadeenned the
coercion of child eh to !abut at hours in which adults were
free. (Mar. hew'.)
Sir G. GREY could not consent to the introduction of the
words into the chaise, because, though children worked et
hour. M which adults did not work, yet their work wag net
continuous compered with that of the adults. (Hear.)
Mr. AGLIDNEY also believed with the noble lord (Lord
Ashley) that the omission of the words "no children" arose
from inadvertence, and regretted to hear the right boa.
baronet the Secretary for the Hose Department state they
were litensimel. (Hear, hear.)
Mr, IDWARRElegreed with the noble lord that chil-
dren, as will as adult females, should be protested. If they
did not metes protection, the esomiu, moo was saws to he
that many venue females would he thrown out of eel
tvaseat, and their plains dltted hy.O.ildrin of tender yearn
sue.-bear.l
Mr. 84101 it did not think the Ivasetion was fairly
placed beforethe onemitteg either by the noble lord oppo-
site (Lad Ashley), otehy the right bon baronet, The house
should bear in salad thit legislation for Children under 13
years should be different from that which regulated the
labour of perms above that age. (Rear, beer.) At pre-

tilt ••ankh* stop etthe . espy&
pithiest Meld Ise Wire fatal tithe bade .4imeenris
*Web Is was itsizd 0 01040 acAliK fees 4=
fetal, he would d, 'to their own tetra:
sign the mat*. litdii tighter Spa had deem teed the
Hine was set distant when ft wed be 044- nom to
Memo the ARNI• of their with regent to this
garden. (Rah, here
Mr. BROTHERTON mid he fill that easy question must
be settled by authority. His hon. friend the somber for
Manchester (Kr. Bright) had qnoted slitter of a respectable
Ann which had been the Ant to break the law.
Mr. -BRIGHT begged pardest---that Ann did not break
the law.
Mr. BROTH:BRYON said, at ell events they evaded it.'
Se wm not at all sppreheasin of the fatal results en-
'preened Sybil hoc. Mend (Mr. Bright), and he riefinmended
the committee to adopt the ent.
Mr. BRIGHT, In seplansUem, said the firm to which his
km: Mend alluded had widen broken the law nor evaded It.
Wbsta they Were rainatimed towel, Wore** magistrates of
lawasharing the prosecution was, he believed, in, nen we
lellolooBll, teed flashy their view of the law wee Milli be
Meted. 'Ne man, therefore, had aright to say that the boa
either broken the law or ended it. Ls hoe. Meal erem'
maid that the (ibises was to prevent the men and the mar
shinny from twiner worked more than tea hours and a half.
That *West woe not stated in 184:7, and therefore thanes=
perked wee neither fair nor candid.
Mt. MUNIE said, supposing the object to be to Melt the
ineploymeet of the men le tea hours and a half, would his
hoe. —Mend (Mr: Bright) ear that they worked for that
period ? There was a great difference between the ages of
thirteen and eight. Wm it right to require children to work
as they did, or would any men like his own children to work
so ion ? He contended that there was no occasion to work
Mehra to death Wert they were belt grown. He had
voted toe the farmer bill as w boas fade tea hours bill. Ile
believed, to that the home eq regarded it, aid the addition
of two hours would make the people think that they were
not honestly represeated.
MT G. GREY said the sole object of the government
wee OS hate the children protested as they were by the
regulations which were not touched by the act of 1847, be-
lieving that those regulations had worked admirably, and
meld not be Improved.
Mr. M. GIBSON odd this proposition was not included
la the Ten Hours Bill, and he, for one, was taken by sur-
prise. Seelig how completely hon. members had foiled to
*any out Heir owe intentions, he hoped the house would
not give • madden anent to this new proposition.
Mr. J. WALTER said that aPhough this proposition was
set included in the Ten Bows Bill, it was a necessary corol-
lary (tom it. It was obvious that the children should have
the protection of their elders.
Mr. STANSPIELD opposed the amendment.
Mr. TRBLAWNY believed that be consulted the interest
of the working classes, by opposing the amendment.
Mr. BLANEY must oppose the amendment, firmly be-
hoving that If carried it would have the effect of limiting
the hoarse( labour, and the working of all the machinery In
factorise to ten hours, and thereby preventing adults from
earning more than they could obtaia by ten hours work.
(Cries of " Divide, divide.")
Mr. SIDNEY said he was led by feelings of humanity
to support the amendment. It had been his lot for several
years to see pox children pemeeding along the streets of •
maaufsetnring town to their work at 5 o'clock in the morn-
ing; and if the bill passed as it stood they would have to rise
at from har-past four to Ave, as suggested by the right bun.
baronet.

Sir 0. GREY—I suggest nothing of the kind.
Mr. HEYWOOD said there was no greater characterivic
of a manufacturing town than the large number of children
it contained. (Lioghter.) They were met with in all
directions. There was a strong desire on the part of the
pa:ents that they should be employed at an early_ period,
and believing, as he did, that children were not injured in
health by a mothrata amount of work, he should oppose the
amendment._ _ _

The committee then divided when there appeared,
Fur the amendment
Against it lO2-30
Mr. BEST then moved the addition of words including
in the operation of the bill factories for the weaving and
manufacturing of carpets. The hon. member said he should
not peso the amendment, although he had received a com-
munication in favour of it from a committee of workmen,
but should leave the matter for the future consideration of
the government.
Lord ASHLEY said in consequence of the decision to
which the house had just come, he considered himselt
relieved from all obligation with regard to this bill. (Hear,
bear.) When a favourable opportunity arose it would be
his du!, to reintroduce the case of the operatives.
Mr. BROTHERTON said although he had voted with
the minority, he really did not think the result would be so
prejudicial to the cause as the noble lord might anticipate.
.Tbs masters had *sieved into a asthmatice and be hoped
they would fulfil it honourably. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY said he e&y wished to guard himself, by
saying that he coseidercid himself at liberty to act in future
en he might deem best. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY had always nederstood his noble friend to
wish that the propeeltion which bed been /*jetted should be
included in the bill ; that, Weed, bad been stated by him
to himself privately. His noble friend had not so far sated
at all iaeoaaistently but he must have known that he (Sir
G Grey) felt it his duty to oppose the amendment.
Mr. lifter's amendment wee then withdrawn, and the-
clause agreed to.
The ruoreedieft clauses were also agreed to.
Mr. P. SCROPE proposed to insert a clause giving power
to employ from seven to seven, instead of from six to six,
daring the winter maths.
W. BAN IiES vaii that, with regard to this clause, he was
of .pieieit that it contained some advantages, but he woe Id ob
serve that it had its accompanying disadvantages, which had
reference to the vote which they had taken with respect to
children. In the winter months it would take them from
their work at seven o'clock, instead of at sir o'clock. Thus
would arise the evil of keeping them at work after their
parents had left.
Sir GI GREY said that, when the clause of the hon.
gentleman, the member for Stroud, was first put into his
hand, he considered that there were several objection* to it.
These objections, however, had been mat by alterations'
which tie hon. gendarme had made.
After a iew words from Mr. BLURB and Mr. HARRIS in
(svelte a the clause, It was agreed ft., and being read a first,
second, and third time, stood part of the bill.
Mr. BASH eseved the following clause :
And wham bj the remelly recited act It wee emitted that any
child above eleven rem Of eice !melees' *dr le the winding and
throwinget eh* mid Me harm Msfisl the entgleal cent-
Game rerchy tidy set of hie ImekegmezVkisehemath year,
wag watt . soy prod of lift. p Abed for any
Um age Ow Imre eh my wrap. rot apt after bait.
poet Mr of IMAM ef the akenora door liefttiserrewhereas
nib M
gr Ilme we mesh et the geld eat mil Fretted
AM RN tho gam le hereby repealed, and in lieu thereat it shell
be leerfaillemer Mild employed scaly la the winding end throwing
d raw ilk who shall ham Mabel the learideol entaMe required
by the said emowity recited act, of tote having completed by eleventh
year, to
de est. homebred in ell impels es young perammay beemployed
mike ti

11. would *et trouble the house with any arrausents in
favour of the insertion of this clause, as he believed that it
was admitted on all heads thet tt wie deelrahhethat it abould
booms part of the bill.
This shoes was bkewtas agreed to.
The bill then pawed through oommitter, and the house
hayloft roomed, the report was ordered to be brought up on
Monday.

.4r4i2loCi
relmov!4j

that if _ *imams a
body at the -preess----t 417;4h/sot *Welk &vastest of 121.
WY was swatter he •to be . :to Abe' Beard of
Health ? why furore the as of mem ? Me troahl pot
la use clause that no body should bi renevedwalees At was
la lead.
Mr. ROEBUCK suagested that there liberal lue fee,
and that they should hare the content of Mt sod of
Health fir the removal of the body, and thea the natter
should be settled. Ildyropered therefore to am% the words
" with the emeseat of the hussiabent."
Bir G. OUT stated that he should feel bound to object to
the assoadateet.

AGLIONBY would give his support to the amend-
sisibtbf the hoe. member terfteffield for striking out thus
words.
Mr. MACKINNON eonsidered that to take it out of the
inerambents' hands and place ft in the hands of the Board
of Health war to break the law.
Mr. ROEBUCK asked why the incumbent in this matter
should be dragged into a &sputa ?
Mr. SADLEIR observed that the incumbent represented
the uslulastical body, and received the fees on the removal
of dead bodies.
Mr. LACY said that, if there was a faculty to remove the
body, the incumbent was obliged to consent, At the same
time be thought that clergymen ought not to be deprived of
their claims on opening the groan& The owner of the
churehyud should have n& fey as he was now entitled to.
The committee then divided,
For the amendment 4B
Against ft
The clause wee then agreed to.
On chum 20, which relate* to the fees for interments,
Lord ASHLEY said in the Cemeteries Companies Bill
there we. no scale of charges, nor any system of check or
control on the amount of the tees. However, there WAS this
distinction to be observed, and it was • distinction of great
importance as to the framing of the bill, that here they had
ao view whatever of profit, end their object was that the
fees should be constructed on a scale which was just suffi-
cient to meet the necessary expenses, and no move. It was
not required that there should be any profit whatever
on which to declare • dividend. In comparing the
fees of the existing cemeteries with those proposed under
this bill he found that the In of the existing cemeteries for
the grave of a pauper, including the burial service, end the
digging of the grave, and everything, in short, except that
which belonged to the undertaker, was 9s. The fee pro-
posed by this bill, and which he hoped they might hereafter
be enabled to reduce, was 7s. Going to the next elan,
which was the artisan, whose family defrayed his funeral
is:pewee, the fee of the existing cemeteries might be taken
at 11. Ss. 7d., although the general charge very much ex-
ceeded that amount. They proposal, instead of 11.8 s. 7d.,
to take 11. ss. Then, when they came to the private
'mgr.., which involved the freehold, the demand in the exir-
log cemeteries was 51 7s. 6d. ; they proposed to take 41.
It woull be very difficult indeed to impose a maximum of
fees of an order above that, and for this reason, that it very
often happened the parties wanted certain positions. Some
great man wished to be interred in • particular spot, and his
relatives wished to be int. reed about that spot. Very often
in some of tne cemeteries about London there was a monu-
ment, and parties were anxious to be interred shout that
spot. However, that being the case, and moms positions being
better than others, be thought it very desirable that in the
highest department of fies a discretion should he allowed to
the board, because if there WAS a great demand for interments
in given districts, how was the board to decide. If
they were not governed by some rule of this description,
they would be charged with jobbery. He thought it for
better to make payment the rule, and not leave it to the
board to soy whether this party or that, party should be
interred there, hut if there was a demand for a particular
spot, to make it a matter of payment.
Mr. Aldermen SIDNEY said the noble lord wee raisin
formed with respect to the charges of cemeteries. In the first
place the noble lord stated that the charge for a pauper was
99. Why, he had been making inquir es of parties convey
sant with the matter, and he found that in churchyards—
Lord ASHLEY—We are not talking about churchyards.
I am compering these fees with the demands of cemetery
companies, not with churchyards.
Mr. Aldermen SIDNEY said 7s. WAS the charge made
under this, bill for the interment of a pauper. Now there
was no charge whatever made for the interment of pau-
pers in churchyards. And then with regard to arti-
sans, the charge in the Abney.park cemetery was
15.., and in another cemetery (we did not hear the name)
12s. 4d. The noble lord said the charge under this bill was
to be 275. He tock it for granted that the artisan would
think there was very little liberality shown towards him.
Then, with regard to the third item, the noble lord stated
that the charge in cemeteries for private graves was 51. 7s. 61.
Now the charge universally made for a private grave was
31 35., to which was certainly added a fee of 21. 25., but then
the grave once purchased, the family had a claim to have
other bodies put in it, paying 21. 21. only. The charge of
54., as proposed by the noble lord, was a great advance on
the existing companies.
After a lew word. from Mr. ROEBUCK and Lore ABHLIST,

Mr. STANFORD moved ma an amendment to add the
words " such fees or SUMS having been first submitted to
and authorised by parliament." The board, be said, was an
irresponsMe body ; and, th4ugh this body was not con.ti-
toted for profit, yet they might, as the Commissioners of
Bowen had done, squander away a deal of money.
The question baring been pet,
Sir B. HALL wished to call the noble lord's atten•ion to
the charges made at John's Wood burying-ground, which
was remarkably well conducted. The noble lord had very
e radio) y stated t►at an artisan shout', pay, under this bill,
tome 17s. more than he need pay at present.
Sir G. GREY was at a loge to know how the matter was
to be accomplished for a less sum than that sugg.sted by the
noble lord, unless an application was to be made to the
Treasury for some of the public funds in support of the
movement.

Mr. OSBORNS said the great movers were the people
on the Treasury benches —(a laugh)—and he understood that
a very large fee was to be paid for that removal. (Laughter.)
After a few words from L ird Agility, Sir D. L. Evans,
and Alderman Sidney.
Mr. WAK LET said he ►hould feel great responsibility if he
had not offered every opposition to this bill. It would very
considerably increase the eapmu s of funerals in London,
and hi opinion was that the consideration of the clause
slould be postponed until the schedule of fees was primared.
The house had not materials before them to warrant their
elating to a conclusion then upon the subject. lie would,
therefore, move that it he postponed.
Mr. BMKNAL reminded the hon. member that there
was another amendment before the house, and they could
not entertain two at the same time.

Mr. ROEBUCK was not aware why there thonli not be
a othedule. He bell. red funerals ►ereafter would be much
less v:pensive than they were at present.

Afterr some diocesan,
Lord J RUSSELL said the motion of the hon, member
for Finsbury meant that they were to remain con-
tent with the present sys em. (Hear, hear, and "No, no ")
If that were not the meaning fit then there was no real 41
for postponing the clause. If they were to continue the
ywaciee whir* was so thinking to their feelings, of cawing
oely a small covering of earth over the dead bldy, no doubt
a very mall fee might be suit lent. But if they determined
on putting an end to that practice, and that the burials
should take piece at a distance from the metropolis, there
must be some means of raying the expenses *of the inter-
ments. The Board of Health could in some respects cause a
diminution of the expenses of interments, but still there
was a large expense to he incurred in the purchase cfground,
and there was the cost of the funeral service. These ex-
penses must be provided for in some way or other. OAS
way was, by voting a large amount of the public money.
No penes thorned euth a scheme.. Another way was, by
levying a rate on the diff.trent parishes of the metropolis.
No one advocated that plan. The only remaining mode.
therefore, was, by a system of fees, and then the ques-
tion arose, what the amount of these •is, a was
to be. Ile did not think that the Board of Health.
or any other body, weld determine, previous to c 'perigee.,
what the 'meant of thee should he, nor did he Md. k that by
postponing the Sanaa far three or tour days they would he
eh)* to obtain sufficient information an that point. (Hear,
hear.) That being the ease he thought it better that a ells.
eretion, as to the amount of fees, should be vested in the
Board of Health, and as they were not to be • private eons
Pithy, which bad to make a profit on burials, but a great
public boar', he considered such discretion might ho sni ly
left in their hands. (Hear.) If they found that the fees
they fixed on in the Brat ins ante were too high end
Hiatt a surplus, they would o: course redo's, the fern.
But se a further security he intended to propose to insert
I words by via is the fees to be fixed wet • to receive the
aoprobation of one of her Iffaiesty's aearetarige of state.
'Hear ) He would hey* to give his approbation to the
WO* of f.its, and they Might be at any time moved f.r in
parli-thent. All that would be athetlfer was as much as
would be sufficient to pay the interest en the sum required
for the puvolsose of the if.llllltt in the first place, and to p.y
for the funeral service in the next oleo.. Of a uthe
tb ye must be a larger fee demanded fur a choices
of snot*, and the hoard would have to take that els unidthoe
into their eonrideratinn. Me hoed the committee would
anent to the sleuth with the addition be preethed.

AR, r -nine observations from Mr. Roebuck, Col. Tttomn-
eon. Mr. T Duncombe, sad Mr. Sadleir,
gslhries were then els .reil for a division, hut none
took b see, the antendthent !taring been negatived without
a divieinn
Tho words nroposod by Lord John Rowell—" with the
an .r lotion of ono of Apt Majesty's principal secretaries of
sesto"—havirt hero lidded to th, duo.,
Mr. T. tYP.ANCI3I3RT moved the addition of these
words -" that such lees sums shall nor ea
nai d the several tees and sumo specified In the B...nodule it of
the mt."

417/55#40 ',ittitt. 7, ':418
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', that the empleynest of '"" lo• ' • . .
tortes be reswisted le lee bates, • te it as Ow peat wiess , • , ~ , ^• • - to allow et their Liz - •thi it
•.. , , would be bible the seamy pewee el die
Oa claw, I, bee, ear aleph' de a mint width all bowleg ;brae hews per day le &veto *a
i• f ; tee tarp of State whether be al" la Mak • lbald•
jj.51.1401 flit • • .. • • •. . . . • :•• : . •
with wilds be was outeeetedtigare war it " . , 1"
a 1". f7r sr "r:Th' ( : ow, ) br""=a
wood hy the Wrangles el We HI. He had pramatod a roe required . the • ii; • ~ 1*,... . . arroa, ...._ O- ) • , of re- saa fee
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I somber of petitions egoist it, ems hem sad or la earkrz.; ~.. ei. tin . t
~(...!.... ;tin air 2:lltyilikeilt 'illedVisii.e, it
a lowa 291,9404, aliagmlisnag,peapi„ ag polo kb. gumbo& toe Sol owe. es hr es it wee these anise ;_
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pptitrri_ . I.:Thimes .th,
t 6„.,•• may take late -their- passible, to tamer. •• 4111 adult laboee. to 61 lishri hay. : • • m Apo it wire sew
HD b allowed to mew ' Tr:derocradved ;is beliorod.fied the lard (the issiaber for Bath tareftep be
ad iiddit • • gelled otragie=ouot belies in altWe she ladles be rea,
' swat-
. =ibm If bill b veto inneasesly **ow hadfaatattlitaigboat witherpat Tialtngersegist be boys, of "12 sad 13 pose, ~..,, •
. • preveeted;by. Motets, with"! lA!r fes es ty him !toe of Owes detestable
1 elitetelaploy es" st the relay waders. Timm pie. ' bad bostfildihahntod er to me ry pa' (MR 'MAIM Man thaw, ISL. - MAW ,h 1 as employ- 4 pima UM lease* what the tied asitityry t mall to,
se wows some imidsi elibsiour imid tut*, sat piledoe. • iltrlded sides' MISS theIIMMI fit& hid boot his teat hithesedit the not ••• ? (near, hoar.) The no shwa obit* to Madame; • •
i „mks 4 lirgiusd• Tuy mai esi=gia peg. able *pas .• Wei* id the hoary pepeldtbsob Afoot 'et ' the sable lard bee to prevent the E. Mr. 301181301 pet it to the hewn lrhothaa. fa *Mi-
t het irersdow Ito *motives eeil te• thole . I and while the hat Iree. ea Vie eeeteemtbse.lhig were the tom bat, of say nal is obi* 'admits were ase ed lien to the he, it should be reMilebl, beelfilin
,be obtain the
win •by um apandoe of dim WI, * , *pea moral people la. oho oosareiy. The frea.asid7a. 4 ' Wag raployial Will • gillli !PE bee" pore day. (__ .) mason of the issombent ? ,
I ‘Tistal ho wad swesly umbeamiloo brag seeded, in so low a tees Mallies es to be ' ises , the prereptiri of the sable hakes 'pea as the sepia horst err. OSBORNE said that if ft wettatropoild to rams a
a hew their work, sad to be throws is Moir to read infra statetehosli sapped el ' A. ' e theedr, aigit losdoavoor to *owl their reel *Wait, bet. hi body at the roost day; Vine **ad be ea sepal" of 121.
a Na. he wished to knew the ream he meek a eels- him Molested to the hiteribreese Ida lam wileb the yid asserted Mat sidle( wee eildyippality for the anises esa. Why was weather he •to be . given to the' Bawd of
t shy bate thrown se festuleg di.-• before di* heves - would mato, •ead incased Nu MU. ecue. hit • llt to it,* the 4010ar a ;he Malta Mali& Hill* f why enema* the ram ad mallaY l Be would Pat
. ...i— .a._ ...v. 1 •Pih... e.g. rain areal isawayseisetie better the realalles wiestiesed•by eh 4 muumuu • ; ;lA* golf be pars fatal la the tad theallitiaellinle I. some clause that no body should be reetand unless it was