The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-02 00:00:00

ivied itself into a question of the number of electors
there should he in Ireland. He (Lord 3. Russell) should
submit to VW committee that the !Mammal rating would not
steam, an esotesive camber of electors. Taking the 81. a
year in empties as Well u boroughs, he thought the whole
number mesas be wider 300,000, and if thet number was
competed with the number of election in England and Wales,
Ithe y were about one in five of the population of England
sad Wale., and would be found to be in the proportion of
one in six and • half or seven in Ireland. In arguing
lids gaieties, the boa. (tendon= stated that the 81. a year
represented the benefiaal interest of half that amount, of
41. a year. If that 4e. a year was compered with the fran-
chise in Busload, it would he found to be equal only to 21. a
year, and therefore the hon. gentleness' himself stated that
it would be • beneficial interest of 41. a year. There cer-
tainly was the differeatiii of tenure. (Loud cheers from the
opposition.) He submitted, however, that the proprsal
being that than should be rather a lees number in pro-
portion in Ireland than in England and Wales, and the
mourn of property being very fairly represented, there
was no reesea for sulfa( that it was too low a franchise.
But, thee, there certainly came the question, on which
very little argument had been addressed to the house, why
the franchise should be given to persons who were
merely occupiers, and why that occupation should
sot be joined with the tenure, as was the cue in
England, end which had always been considered as the mo-
pe franchise in this country. In order to arrive at a just
conclusion on this question, he (Lord John Russell) thought
it would be quite seMelect to look back at the course of
proceeding in Ireland with respect to the franchise hosed
epos tenure. In the year 1793 the forty shilling freehold,
as enjoyed' by the people of England, woo grated to the
people of Ireland. The consequence wen that there were
in some eintaties thousands of manufactured votes
in the hands crimsons of no property whatever who were
driven to the pen by the agouti of the landlords in order to
meet the *emend mates of some other landlord. In fact, it
hiramenpiaes dtatreetthe earicatare and most savage abuse of the
system that could well be imagined. He
remembered leering a story which was some illustration of
the stetement. A gentleman who was paining by a number
Of waitetted hovels in the shape of a village in Ireland, said
to the geatiesun who was driving him. " How can you
permit say person to inhabit these wretched hovels, and of
what use can the people be to you ?" " Oh," an-
swered the gentleman, " all the use in the world. forp:hees/
enabled me to make my brother a dean." (Laughter.
He (Lord J. Romani did not think that the amount pro
wallas law, nor that it would sties an excessive number
wan to Ireland. (Bear, hear.
Mr. OOULBURN then row, but was throughout hie
remarks very inaudible. The right hon. gentlemen was
understood to say that he was extremely anxious to learn
the petal& on which the government based their proposal.
He felt very strongly the necessity of making a con-
siderable addition to the number of voters in Ireland, but
he felt bound to consider the effect which the reduction
of the amount of the franchise would have on the social
andition of the people of Ireland. The government with
which he had the honour to be connected had intreduced •
bill by Lord Elliott, in order to remedy the evils of the
franchise in Ireland, and make it in some respects similar to
England. That bill gave the right of voting to a 51. free-
hold. This was stated now to be too high ; but there was
a vast difference between • 51. freehold and an 81. rating.
Was an 81. rating qualified to give a constituency to
Ireland such as it was desirable for that country
to possess? In making such an alteration great regard
should be taken of the stimulus which it would give to the
industrial exertions of the Irish. If a higher rate than 61.
were adopted the number of voters might be reduced; but
then it would afford motives for exertion, and would give a
stimulus to those who did not possess the right to vote to do
their utmost to obtain the necessary qualification. Having
regard to the consideration of the social condition of Ireland,
and the results which the adoption of an 81. franchise would
have upon it, he was not of opinion that it was an advisable
course for the house to adopt, and he should give his vote
against it. (Divide, divide.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE apprehended that there was no
doubt as to the necessity of sorrething being done. The
state of the franchise in Ireland was now such that it
behoved the house, if they really wished to establish a
proper constituency in that country, to endeavour to remedy
the existing state of things. The question was, what
that remedy ought to be, and how it ought
to be applied. The house would remember that
by the Reform Act a 101. franchise was conferred on Ire-
land, and the general opinion at the time of passing that
measure was that under that franchise a very extensive con-
stituency would be created in Ireland. That expectation
had entirely failed. Instead of an extensive constituency,
the number of voters had been declining ever since, and at
the present moment they amounted to very little more than
30,000. The point then was, haw were they to create a
constituency in Ireland ? He believed that it would be use.
less to attempt it by in any way connecting the franchise
with the tenure of land, no matter whether the amount
were W., 31., or 21. There was always a great indisposition to
grant leases in Ireland,posably because it conferred the paths.
mentary franchise ; that indisposition would not be diminished
if a franchise of 51. were adopted connected with the tenure of
the land. Was the 81. franchise so very high compared with
the 101. franchise granted by the Reform Act ? He appre-
hended it was not. Returns laid upon the table of the house
in 1843 would show that a 101. or 81., or even 51. rating
would not diminish the number of 101. voters established
under the Reform Act ; and it did not appear to him that
the proposed bill would make any excessive menus in the
constituency. It was generally admitted that there must
be a large increase in the constituency. The proportion of
electors at the present moment to the adult male population
of Ireland was very little more than three per cent.; the
number to be created by the bill then before the house
might, he thought, be calculated at about 287,000, that
would give a proportion of about 15 per cent. to the adult
male population. That was not an extravagant proposal;
nor an addition which ought to alarm hon. gentlemen oppe-
site ,• whilst it was somewhat nearer the properties of electors
in England to the adult male population. It a higher
franchise than that proposed by the government were
adopted, he thought the people of Ireland would have • just
right to complain, and that being the case, he hoped the
house would not consent to the motion of the hon. member
for the Dnivenity of Dublin.
Mr. R. M. FOX (member for Longford) was sure that
the measure would be received with great satisfaction in
Ireland.
- -

Mr. STAFFORD said the supporters of the clause had
enlarged upon the number, but said nothing of the quality
of the electoral body whom it was proposed to create. This,
he argued, would be degraded below the endurable rank by
the 8!. qualification.
Mr. SIiBIL explained that the 81 rating was fixed for
Ireland as being equivalent to the tariff fixed by the Reform
3111 for Ragland. The consequences of the measure he did
not expect to find so completely democratic as had been
assumed. The increased expense of the elections would be
a bar to many ambitions; and the individual prepossessions
of large muses of the electors, who were unprotected by •
lease, would be controlled by the " expressive physiognomy"
el their landlords.
Mr. ROEBUCK said hoe. members were always fall of
involuntary emotion when they tallied of humanity, gene-
rosity, and kindness towards that nation. Now he wished
they would at once practise that species of generosity which
would allow the Irish people to manage their own concerns;
end the only way to do so was to allow the Irish people, and
not the Irish landlords, to send representatives us that
home. (Cheers.) It was declared by the right hos
baronet the member for Tamworth, when he brought in hit
eelabrated bill in 1829, that the Irish landlords had mann-
faetund votes for their own purposes ; that the priests cams
in and put down the power of the landlords, so that, to use
the right hon. gentleman's expression, " the sword which
they bad forged was broken in their own hands;" and that
then the landlords were quite ready to destroy that franchise
which they had previously employed for their own purposes.
The measure then offered was accepted simply
bemuse • bettor lons could not be obtained.
New, when they were attempting to create a constituency in
the country, thew had members rising up and saying we are
quite ready to coincide with you—we want an independect
oonstitnency. Why should • Man with 151. • year be more
independent than one whnpaid 101. ? Hen was one great
reason why we should take • different franchise in England
and Ireland. In England there was a greater degree of
wealth ; and if in England you were to make the Minden
franchise 161,, you would swell the constituency far
more than you could do in Ireland. 11. in Ire-
land :wee • far larger rum than 101., 161., or 20s. in
England. Therefore, he had no hesitation, fearing not the
imputation of inconsistency, to go with the noble lord in the
full expectation that the increase of the population of Ire-
land would teach the other side of the house that they might
go safely hereafter another step. These things must be
done by degrees, and when the noble lord brought forward
his Reform Bill, which he (Mr. Roebuck) hoped he would
shortly introduce into the house, when he should lower the
franchise of 101. in England, he hoped it would be accom-
panied by an Irish reform bill, and that it would go on with
it step by step.
Lord C. HAMILTON said that be believed that
in all coats they should not think that there was
any panacea that would immediately can the people.
The one thing that Ireland had not asked for was the
franchise.
Mr. MACCULLAOH observed that it had been asked
by the noble lord, why no petitions had been presented to
the house in favour of this bill, He would give an answer.
On two several occasion the people of Ireland came to the
house and affirmed the principle of this bill. He thought
the noble lord would prefer to keep the constituency of
Ulster, and of his own county, such as it was. The
noble lord maid that the constituency should re-
main as they were. What was the state of the constituency of a
portion of Ireland of which the noble lord was one of the
representatives? The whole constituency of Ulster was less
than 9,000. There were fewer electors in the whole of pro-
testant Ulster than in South Heron, both divisions of Lin-
colnshire, and West Kent. The house was asked to-night
why the Si. franchise was selected more than any other that
could be named. He believed it would be found to be
correct, that the counties of England had, on an average,
6,700 electors, and this franchise would give about 0,000
for each county in Ireland. Therefore it would be
found to be that this bill was a bill for the specific perform-
ance of • promise made at the time of the Reform Dal, that
Ragland and Ireland should be placed on the same footing.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that as he must affirm
these resolutions or the reverse, he felt himself in duty
bound to vote for the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) He
felt that If they were to give • new constitution to Ireland,
they had better be upon the liberal side. lie confessed for
his own part, that he bad great doubts as to trying this en-
periment of a different franchise in Ireland.
Alter a few words from Sir W. YEOMEN and Slr.MoNsett.,
Lord J. MANNERS felt that they had derived great
benefit from the debate of the previous evening, and re-