The Express.
London, England, 1850-07-26 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The !thugs then rani V' it;;lii;tO Committee of Supply.
Os the vote of 8,5001 to the Dublin H fuse of Industry,
Mr. REYNOLDS said that in 1845 the vote was 14,7951.,
and in 1849 it was 12,0931., whilst at present it was only
8 5001. He believed the nYginal proposition was to reduce
the vote at the rate of 20 per cent., but the Chancellor of
the Exchequer in compassion only reduced it by 10 per cent,
He thought the reducion an open viol Won, it rot of the
letter, at least of the spirit of the act of union. (Hear, beer.)
The House of Industry existed at the time of the union, and
there was an implied understanding that all grants made and
allowed by the IriA parliament should sot be disturbed by
the English. (Hear, hear.) Therefore be did not think
this reduetios, just. He found on the other aide of the paper
the the house contemplated v Ming 8001. to French
refugees, which vote was originally passed in 179/.
and consequently not one of whom was at present living
(Hear, hear.) Ti.e other night the government forced a
vote of 1,6751. on the dissenting clergy, notwithstanding the
opposition of the diventing members, who repudiated it.
(Hear, hear.) If he were in ceder he would move that the
vote be inereaseflto 14,5001.

Mr. GROGAN urgei the necessity of enlarging the grant. '
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said thst at 4
present he could not assent to any alteration of the vote. An
that description of votes were being gradually reduced.
The vete was then agreed to
On 7001. being required forth* maiotanance of the Dublin
•
Female Orphan Asylum,
Mr. REYNOLDS objee'ed to the vote, as the institu-
tion was of a purely sects/inn character. He was opposed
t 0 tattle lie sectarianism, as well se protestant; therefore he
thought the 7001 should be handed over to the Dublin
House of Industry. but if not, he begged to move it be
disallowed altogether. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
vote bad been granted for many years, and therefore it would
not be fair at premise to disallow it altogether.
Mr. HAMILTON supported the vote.
Mr. HUME thought It better to reduce votes gradually
than to abolish them altogether.
Mr. REYNOLDS did not feel himself bound by the ad-
missions of the noble Lard the member fir Surrey, lidieving
thathe could form a better muintate of the value of such in-
stitutions as the present than his lordship. He did not oppose
this grant from any tinkled feeling towards his protestant
fallow-citizens, but he did protest that an institution should
be sustained in Dahlia of an e :elusively protestant character,
which appropriated its funds to proselytising purpose..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
that the government ought to withdraw such grants as the
present gradually.
Mr. REYNOLDS said the exclusively protestant character
of the charity was proved by the fact that it professed " to
instruct 168 girls " in the principles of the established
religion."
Mr. HUME thought that charitable institutions, sap-
ported by the public, ought not to be purchuers of stock,
and yet be found that this institution had purchased Three-
eadir Quarter per Cent. stock for 4001.
The vow wss agreed to.
A vote of 2,0001. for the Westmoreland Lock Hospital was
spud to.
Upon the motion that 7001. be voted for the Lying-In
Hnspital. Dublin,
Mr. REYNOLDS 'sprinted his repot that the Omani-
loe of the Exchequer had felt it hie duty to rodeos this
past. The eeP"ee of the institnioa stated that appeals in •
its behalf had been made to the nobility, and that only 13
replies sad been returned and 161. received. It was, thornier*,
feared that the hospital would have to be elesed. He pro-
tested against what he considered a violation of the implied
understanding • f the Act of Union embraced in this redo°.
tioa, and he hoped, that between the present time and 12
months hence, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take
a more merciful consideration of this grant than he had
done to-night.
Mr. HUME reminded the hon. gentleman that the Aet
of Union only stipulated that these grants should continue
for 20 yens. Therefore, in 1820, these grants ought to
have *eased. He had always protested against the past
of 3,0001. to the Refuge for the Destitute in this country
believing that the less public money was gives t* asap insti-
tutions the less misery prevailed.
Mr. REYNOLDS compl• bud that the hon. member for
Montrose was sot quits se economical with regard to his
votes when Scotland was concerned—(a laugh)—for he had
voted or promised to vote 25,0001. of the public money to
erect a gallery of arta in Edinburgh. He had compaalea,
therefore, for inanimate pictures of humanity, while hs
withdrew all compassion from the 2,000 poor women who
had last year Man confined within the walls of the Dublin
Lying-in Hospital. lie was invariably on the side of eco-
nomy when an Irish vote was proposed.
Colonel RAWDUN thought the present an unfortunate
time for reducing the grant, and said that, according to
letters which were extant, Ireland was, if the Union Act
plastid, to have a right to all the resources of England, not
as a matter of favour, but as one of duty.
The vote was agreed to.
The sum of 1,3501 was voted to Dr. itcvsas's Hospital,
A vote of 3,4201. for the fever hospital and house of re-
I wily, Cork-street, Dublin, was agreed to,
• A vote of 4501. for the epitul for Incurables,
• was agreed to.
• Upon the motion that a sum of 37,6981. be voted to de.
fray the expo., of non-oonfurmieg, ensdlog, and protestant
' dissenting ministers in Irelsn•l,
• Mr. SCULLY said he had a duty to perform to the
house and the country, with 'devotee to the management of

liaginrit Drum la evoked. The case to whitish' was
shoat Sp allude had airepled the attention of tha "noble
Wins ia *air general anenbly, sad he fa Warmed la
It, because it had occurred I. Clonnel, the chief
tows of the musty wish& he had the honour to
represent. Aa set of injustiao had been dose the prsbyterlas
clergyman of that town, tire Rev. YnlDdl,byeapiy do
&Ilium Deena freeabia lee the Nate hq ea o the
pun 180. lie hadlibran treated most aijresfy and severely,
sad it appeared as if he had been panned non
motive' of privets maim Re (Yr. Scully) re-
:gutted that .he weltagain t say anti=
on tb• subject. Eis amid cell inquire what had
boron" of the sneers due to the reverend gentleness, and
call epos the g *erases% to beanitiela se te the pima' to
whoa they entrusted the distributiou of tAla 37,000 i. is
Ireland.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that whateves had been
done in this ease had been dose with the senstles and ap-
proval of the government, and that the euesea(eelos appointed
to Inquire into the 'induct of Matthews or Ceish•se the
late ebief-clerk in the secretery's cues, bad .thing to do
with the question. When Mr. Dill ohms to do what
every other presbyteries clergyman In Ireland had dose,
all the arrears would be Feld bins, sad that until
he complied with the requisition of the peens-
' sent—and the government bad a right to require sub
leformatioa as they considered necessary, and then wes
sothing irksome, onerous, or unfair is the • requisition ',the
government—the money would be withheld from him.
Meer, beer) There were in Ireland 483 presby•
cerise eniaieters, and 482 of them had complied with
the requisitions of the government, Mr. Dill alone bad
not done so, and till be did the Lord Lieutenant had decided
that the arrears ix his portion of the "Regius Donau"
should not Ise paid. The in .ney was waiting for him when
be complied with tbe regulation, not of Mr. Matthews, but
of the government.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said whatever difference of opi-
nion there might be is other respects. it must be
gratifying to every one to see the Roman Who-
lie member for Tipperary advocating the cause
of the ill-need and persecuted preebyterian minister
of Clonmet. He (Mr. Osborne) was acquainted with Mr.
Dill, who was is honest and excellent man. and one who
did much to promote the bond of anion between the either
lies and pro's/tants of his neiabbourhoot The Oatmeal
of the right hon. geatleman, the Secretary for Ireland, was
likely to masked, bosun he said that Kr. Matthews wee
not to blame is this matter. New, it was notorious to every
one wb• knew anything of Dublin Lamle, that till the time
of his absconding, he was the 'overissue-I of Ireland as far
as related to the Regina Doman. Another sad more
important question was, how long were they to go
on granting this sum,—(hiter, beer)—and thus creating
another established church in Ireland I (Hear, hear.) As
long as these grants were made there would be sup re-
form in the church in Ireland. He would ask how the Roman
Catholics liked to see the Protestant Episeopal aid
Presbyterian churches paid by the state, while they were
throw. oa their owa removes' and had to pay for their own
cherub establishuseet Tate was a far graver question than
that of Mr. Dill emit the grant to him.
Mr. REYNOLDS had determined to move the rejection
of the you, on the ground that it was a violation of the
voluntary principle by which every shank should be asp-
poted, of which he was an advocate.
After a f-w words frt OS Mr. Amara.,
Mr. SAD LEHR said that it had only been since the sun
Piglet of Mr. Dal had been prise-el on the government that
they bed attended to the details of this grant to the preebyte-
piano ; before tnat it was entirely in the hands of this Duncan
Chisholm. For years before 1847 Mr. DA' had furnished
the same return, until exception was taken to it by this espri-
t:inns Me. Duncan Chisholm, and his salary had been paid
under the defective return up to that time, while in the
years since 1847 he had complied with the oenditioue, and
re dived the grant. He should be glad if this grant was
withdrawn, as it would unite the presbyterians with the Ro-
man catholic-, and render thim independent. Tois Dunne
Cehholen who had amiconded from Inverness had obtained a
most improper control over the Regina Demure, and had
always been • favourite parliamentary witness of the govern-
ment 'rhea he had taken every opportunity of oppcsing him-
self to the preshy;erians of Ireland.
Mr. HUME coped the hauls would not give entire weight
to what had been stab d till they beard his statement. In
1847 an increase was proposed to the Regiom Donuts, end
ha wished to know why, and moved for papers. Mr.
Matthews was brought up as a witting to make explanations
in relation to termite charities, and no one could hive done
his duty better or given el answers. Of course
be (Mr Hume) knew nothing of Mr. Chieslexan—
(laughter)—or say other name. Constant efforts had been
made to inures e the grant, at d he agreed that as an endow
meat it was a bribe to a partimalar party, made them tools of
the government, and it would be • blessing to Ireland it
it we. removed, lie bad divided the house 1 times
against any allowsaces to dissenters in this country, as well
to the episcolialiens in Scotland, who received 1,0001 a
year. If government would take his allele, they would
abolish these grants altogether. He had a letter before him
from James Morgan, the moderator of the assembly, to M-.
Labouchi re, calling upon government, in come Tierce of the
tenure of the potato crop, and many of the parishioners not
being able to contribute towards their stipends, to Menage
their allowance, and be was very much pleased with Mr. La-
bonchere's answer, deelinir g to accede to this. Mr. Matthews,
in his report, stated that the ge 1 contribution of
each presbyterian in Ireland, towards the support of their
minister-, was 41 larthiegs, and no more. He did not think
that the dissenters in Imbued had any claim upon govern-
ment ; and he should, therefore, support the amend-

meat.
Mr. BRIGHT said he wished to saggett a coons which
speared to him more practicable than that of the
right hon. member for Dublin. lie 'greed in all
thst had been said as to the improper nature of this
grant It seemed to him that it made the pees-
byterian ministers dependent upon government, end was
likely to cause dimensions between them and their
congregations. It was perhaps as objectionable a grant, and
made in as objectionable a mode, as could be contrived.
What he wanted to see was that they should be satisfied that
the vote should go no further. At present the vote was in a
state of unlimited expansion. Wherever twelve persona or
more should subscribe 301., 251 of which only need come
from the congregation, government were called upon to pay
751. more. He, therefore, asked the right hon. gentleman to
withdraw hie motion, and to move that the vote be 329001
instead of 37,12001 Mr Bright concluded by making this
motion himself.

Mr. RIfYNOLDS said any recommendation coming from
his hon. friend who had just addreiged the house would have
weight with him ; but the advice he had given him on this
occaeion was against hi. conviction, and he could not adopt it.
Mr. S. CRAWFOIU) mid he had always opposed these
grants to dissenters. He, at the same time, felt there
would be great i %justice in withholding that portion of it
which went to the support of the widows and orphans of the
I old clergy who ware past duty.
Mr BRIGHT inquired of the Chairman if his amendment
would be put first
The CHAIRMAN replied that it would.
Mr 131110Ii1' said thee he should divide upon it.
The committee then divided—
For the amendment
Against it lOB-63

Mr. REYNOLDS Pail he was anzious that all who op•
posed the vote on principle should have an opportunity of
recording their °pieties ; he would therefore press his
amendment to a division.
The committee again divided—
ir the amendment
Against it 123-98
The vote was then d to.

- _
The nest vote was 6,7901. for charitable allowances charged
on the cenwortialioss fun t in Ireland, and other allowances
and bounties formerly earty d from the grants for the Lord
Lii utenant's boualtolil, civil contingencies, (lc.
Mr. REYNOLDS said be should divide on one item of
this vote, the salary to the minis rr of St Matthew's Caine:,
Ringeend, also the allowance to the clerk and sexton. He
wished to have some information ate w►at chapel that was.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he conceived the Ringsenn
chapel must be well known to the hon. member. The
endowment was an old one, having been drat made in the
reign of Queen Anne; and the chapel wee attended by
some of 'he troops stationed in Dublin.
Mr. REYNOLDS said the explanation MIMI not satisfac-
tory. T►e locality alluded to was the Wapping of Dublin ;
nearly all the population were Roman catholic., and there
were several churches in the district. it was no recommen-
dation that the church or chapel bad been originally en.
(towed in the reign of Queen Anne. He moved that the
vote be reduced ►y the amount of 2W. 18s. Ad., t►e sem put
down for t►e chapel es Riposted.
Atter a few words hem Me. Ross, Sir W. Soseays.te,
and Mr. Seoutin,
The cossets's divided—

For the amendment 24
Against it
The vote was then agreed to.
The committee thee proceeded to No. 7 of the estimates
for civil services, namely, thou designated es " miscella-
neous, epeolal, and tempo objeets."-
The first vote of 20,7001. for the expense of the Coastal
Board of Health was agreed to without remark.
Oa the next vote-
-2.3461. for the salaries sad incidental expense of the Cen-
tral Board of Health is Debits,
Mr. HUMS complained that some of tits allowances were
sir, exorbitant.
The vote was spud
13,6511, salaries end expenses o! the R untainted Hetet. a
Commission (Ireland).
Mr. HUMS asked if there was say return of the number
of estates that had been sold by the commission, and of the
amounts they bed realised.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE was aadenteod to say that such
a return had been recently laid before the other house.
Mr. HUME said as this court was dolor the duty of the
Court of Chummy, as they were now paying 13,0001. for
ditties which ought to be done by one of the constituted
courts alb. country, he wished to know whether there was
to be a propordeeete reduction in the earn% of the Court
of Cbeneery. (Hear, hear.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE sold he believed the operation of
the Enmesh( red Estates Act, instead of diminishiog, had
materially increased the badness of the court of Chancery.
Col. SIBTROUP moved that the vote be disallowed, Th..
gallery was clear. d for a div:sion, bat none took place, the
lute having been agreed to.
Os the vote of 141641. for the completion of the ambassa-
dor's resid-nr• at Constantinople,
Mr. HUME said be was surprised to sse this vote as there
was a etessinitbee then sitting which bad under their cowl-
deratioa the salaries of the diplomatic corps. He would
suggests postponements( this vote till the committee had
weds their report.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in any MO there must be a residence fur the minister at
Constantinople.

~‘JULY 26, ;1860.

Kr. HUME—Ho
it should
t 10001.
Lord

bow fen a maw with 6,0001. a
(N as espaldve as that for a ass having
em •
-PALMERSTON add that it was impartible to hire
aims in Coastaatiaople 6t for &European to live in ; and
'to it was necessary to build a house, it wail a matter of
• ateestay that It should be made ef masteolub that would aft
burs. uithur
Mr.HENLEY asked what the total expeuditure would
bet

—Lord PALMERSTON regretted to say that it would he
muck more than was at Out expeeted—(taughter)—es
whilst the banding of it was going on one putties' data
'naught fire. (Leeghter.)
Mr. HENLEY' mid that the prmotet trot made the total
expenditure 30,0001., end he wished to know if any more
money was to be ached for?
Lord PALMERSTON add he believed the present vote
would complete the building.
The vote was thee agreed to.
1,000/. for volunteers in Cum& was voted, and also
3,0001. for repairing the harbour of Lybater on the met
eoest of Scotland.
Oa the vote of 18,1001. for erecting and maintaining light-
houses, H
Mr. UME said he did not rim to object to the employ-
ment of money fur useful pulpits. Bat he regretted that
the government did mot take this department under their
own metro!, Indeed of leaving it to be managed by a
self elected company who expended what they pleased
end levied what they pleased.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 30,0001. fora repository for public records,
Mr. HUME said he was not going to object to the vote.
All he wanted was that they should not leave the building
in the hand, of Mr. Barry—(langhter)—for nothing could
be more disgraceful to a tit/Jibed country than the folly
which wee going on with reaped to the new homes. of
parliament. Redid not wish to see any more public build-
ings unbar there was to be a reeponaible person to guard
against any increase of expenditure. (Howl
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the head of the Woods end Forests Department would be
responsible for the expenditure of the money.
Mr. HENLEY said the report did not appear to be vatic-
factory as to the amount of accommodation to be afforded.

Th;CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIIIQUEICsaIiIat
the plan contemplated a structure to be raised in four differ-
eat periods. No. 1 would provide for all existing records,
and the /specie of it would be covered by a sum of 4.5,0001.
No 2 would provide for all record. fm 100 years. Then N.
3 and 4 were to follow, so that they made provision for the
future as well as the present.
The vote was then agreed to.
Oa 8 0001. to complete the vote for the legal expenses
connected with the Treasury.
Mr. lIUME rid that the salary of the solicitor of the
Treosury was 1,8501. ; but be wished to know whether there
were any bills in addition. It was an economical practice
to pay the solicitors by a fixed sum, but he wanted to guard
the public against the system which had prevailed in the
office of Woofs and Forests, where certain parties had re-
c. iced immense some as law charges for duties which ought
to be performed by the solicitors.
Mr. LEWIS said that the solicitor of the Treasury devoted
his entire time to his office, and he received nothing but his
salary.
The vote was then agreed to.
3,5551. was voted to pay the expenses connected with the
prosecti.ion of offenders against the laws relating to gold and
silver coin.

Mr. HUME remarked that It had ban proved before the
committee that a large portion of these expenses had bees
t . .

" 7,1601. was voted to defray the expenses incurred by
sheriffs, formerly paid from civil contingencies—also of the
amount r quitted to make rod the deficiency in the fete
in the office of the Queen's Remembrancer in the Exche-
quer, and to pay the salaries and ancient allowances to certa:n
officers of the Court of Exchequer. Also cer:aia expenses of
the Queen's Prison.

5,3301. for the salaries and expenses of the Commissioners
of the Into'vest Debtors' Court,
44.3141. to defray law expenses in Scotland.
33,7611. for criminal pet:um:ions and other law charges in
Ireland
Col. DUNNE observed that on looking over the estimates
it would be found that a sum of 700,0004 had been taken off
the county rates of England and placed on the coniuli latei
fund. It was impossible that Ireland could bear the weight
of taxation now placed upon bre.
Mr. C. LEWIS said that if a balance were struck between
Ireland and England, It would be found that Irelat.d was
by no means a loser.
Mr. H. HERBERT stated that in the county which he
represented (Kerry), there were 1,500 prisoners in the Rao!,
which w s constructed tor 130. He had himself visited the
gaol, and had seen lunatics and convicts placed tcgether
without the smallest regard to claasificstion.
Mr. SADLEIR hoped that the appeal which had been
made to government would be attended to. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the hon. gentleman the member
for Kerry was right when ha said that the greatest endea-
vors bad been made to remedy the evil complained of. It
must be remembered that within the last few years there
had been a vast increase in the number of convicts sentenced
for tran•portatien. Tho government, however, did all they
could to provide for the removal of these convicts, and there
were now two ships under orders to remove them. He was
bound to thy that great improvements had taken place in
gals as to their general regulations.
After a few words from Mr. SADLIIII,
Col CIIATTERTON asked if any of the convicts sen-
tenced to transportation were lactated in Carlisle Fort.
Sir G. GREY said that there were none.
Tce vote was then agreed to.
Tne sum of 15,5001. was then voted to complete the sum
necessary for the maintenance of the metropolitan police of
Dublin.

The sum of 90.0001. was then proposed for defraying cer
lain charges originsllT paid out of the poor rates.
In answer to Mr. V. SMITH,
Sir G. GREY said that there was a bill in preparation for
the purpose of rendering the scale of rases more uniform.
Atter a few objections trona Mr.llussz and Sir J. TROT..
Lore to the enormous expense to which the country was
subjected by the m•ide in which criminal prcaecutiocui were
at present conthetpri,
. . . . .

Mr. AGLIUNBY Lreftested that the pleas of prisoners for
first off aces should be taken before two justices at open petty
cessions, by which plan a saying would result in enamels'
fees of some 41,0001 per annum.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 7,5501. to defray the expenses of inspection
and superintendence of prisons,

Sir J. TROLLOPE moved as an amendment "that the
salaries of the three inspectors-7001. each—be omitted from
the vote." He did cot propose to take away the chief in-
spector, but he would remove the inferiur ones.
Sir G. GREY hoped the house would not coneent to the
proposition just made. Great good had been derived from
the appoiatment of these inspectors, originally sungested by
the House of Lords, and sanctioned by that house. It was
true that alma of the rep Ati contained much matter that
had better been excluded. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir I'. Eontrog,

Col. SIBTIIOItP said hen saw a more jolly-looking
set of fellows than convicts generally—far more so than the
hardw,rking labourers. (Laughter.) He hoped the right
boa &crawl for the Home Department would be prepared
with additional prisons, in anticipation of the thed of vaga-
bonds that the Exposition would lot loos* on the metropolis.
Hear, hear ,^ and laughter.) The police force were to be
increased 2,000 ; and if the glass house should be built in
Hyde-park, and the Exposition come off, additional prisons
would be required for the vagabonds who, (mhos of law
and religion, woulU be certain to pillage the metropolis.
(Great laughter.)
After a few words from Mr. DIEDER,
Mr. HUME complained that no details were given of the
various items of prison expenditure.
Sir G. GREY said that a eoneiderable diminution had
taken place in the expenses of Pentonville this year, and
the subject was still under investigation. He expected
that a report on the sub,ect would be laid on the table this

day.
Sir J. THOLLOPH said that the discussion had fully
answered his object, sod therefore he should beg leave is
withdraw his motion.
After a few words iron Mr. H , the motion was
withdrawn.
Major BLACKALL eomplained of the mode in which
inspectors wee. remunerated in Ireland, being yea by a
elsseste of 201 on each county for each report.
The vote was agreed •a.
The neat vote waa 137,23 U. to complete the charge for go-
vernment prisons and convict establishments.
Cal. DUNNS objected to the vote, and moved that the
eotninktee report provress.
Major BLACKALL suggested that a vote on amount
should be taken.

The vote wee agreed to.
The next vote was 63,8491. for miOttenance of prisoners iu
county gaols and lunatic asylums
Lord NAAS complained that the charge for me;ntenance
of prisoners in Ireland wee much greater than in England.
Bir GREY explained that the difference was • charge
oa the consolidated fund.

69.2301. for the transportation of convicts, and
100,1471. for convict establishments in the colonies.
These votes were &grand to.
Toe chairman then reported progress, and asked leave to
sit again to morrow (Ibis day).

GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH (N 0.2) BILL.
'ibis bill was read a third ti•e, a now clause added, and
the bill passed.