The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-11-02 00:00:00

Rice : The supply on offer has increased. Dealers operate
cautiously.

Cotton: Our market is tolerably firm,
change has taken place.

In prices very little

Hemp and Flax : There is very little doing in hemp, the
value of which is barely supported. Flax is dull, and rather

Spirits : The market for rum is dull, on former terms. In
brandy very little is doing. Geneva and corn spirits are quite
as dear as last week.

Provisions : There is a very inactive demand for Irish
butter, at a reduction in tho quotations of from is to 2s per
cwt. Foreign has sold slowly, at the same decline, English
butter supports previous rates, Bacon moves off slowly, at is
per cwt less money. In the value of hams, lard, and cheese,
we have no change to notice.

Metals : Scotch pig iron is quoted at 5s 5d free on board.
Copper and lead are quite as dear as last week. Spelter dull,
at £2l 5s to £2l Zs 64 per ton.

Oils: Our market is rather inactive; but we have no ma-
texial change to notice in prices. Pale seal, t 37 10s to £3B
16; brown, £33 to £34; sperm, £B6 to £B7; cod, 134
10s; southern, £39 to £4O.

Tallow : The demand is heavy, and prices are not sup-
sported.

GLASGOW MARKETS—YESTEADAY,
Messrs. McCallum, Graham, and Black, brokers, sold at
auction, this afternoon, (Tuesday) 140 bogies pearl sago, large
grain, in bond here, at 19s per cwt ; also 100 boxes pearl sago,
small grain, at 22s 6d ; and 64 bags white pepper, in bond, at
9d to 9fd per lb ; 4,500 bundles Rattans were offered, but
there being no buyers, they were w•ithdt awn.

West India Produce : The sales of West India Sugar are
still small, with little alteration in prices. Brown Lobagos
are quoted at 33s 6d ; middling Trinidads, 34s 3d, In Mauri-
tius, East India, and foreign, no transactions worthy of notice.
Refined sugars are In moderatewi
with
4h 3s
m 6odddeentrioaa
moderate
a at
l6e
d4:3 sfloyrt,ofibn6ue
tlysel•l
prices foowr
brown loaves, 50s 6d to 52s f for middling good, 42s 6d to
43s 6d ; to fine and very fine from 54s to 665. Crushed
ugars in good request at 37s 6d to 40s ; for brown, 40s 6d to
middling treacle,
s only,
no
o3s ;
to 18s 6d ; syrup, 20s to 235.
Cloowttfeoornr. iis yellow
still andbrown,
inactive,

Cotton goods and yarns are somewhat firmer, and more
business done at current prices.
Pig Iron : Yesterday there was a good business done at 77s
to 778 6d; cash for warrants closing firm at later quotations,
No. 1, pu.b. 795, and No. 3, 755.

GREAT FLOODS IN KENT AND ESSEI.—On Thursday
night last a heavy storm of thunder and lightning burst
over the valley of the Medway. It w. s accompanied by a
literal deluge of rain, which descending on Friday from the
uplands, poured into the river, and gradually overflowed its
banks at numerous points, till some hundreds of acres of
land between Fenshurst and Maidstone were under water.
On Friday also, and in the course of the night, there were
frequent and heavy showers, augmenting the body of water
to such an extent that the bed of the stream could not carry
off the flood, and the neighbouring fields and meadows
were completely inundated. On Saturday morning, conse
quently, the Fair-meadow at Maidstone, with some of th
meadows above and below the bridge, resembled a lake.
On Saturday night and Sunday the flood abated, and the
river now does not exceed its average depth.

SHIPBUILDERS' ASSOCIATION.-IMPOR-
TANT MEETING.

. Yesterday morning, a special general meeting of this body
took place in the Regulating Office, Strand-street, to consider
theyropriety of Advertising for strangers, and to transact other
liusiness connected with the association. Mr. John Green
presided, and the following members were present:—Messrs.
Clayton, Boyd, Major, W. Pope, J. Pope, I. Evans, Potter,
Ladmore, Johnson, Paul, M'Elroy, Dawson, Royle, Bell,
Jackson, Brown, Fitzpatrick, W. B. Jones, Clarke, Smith,
Garrett, Costain Cato, R. Evans, - hon. secretary, and H.

Crosbie, assistant secretary.
The CHAIRMAN said before going into the business of the
day, he would mention that he attended the meeting at the
Concert Hall, on Wednesday last, and a statement was there
made by him which 'they might have read in the papers.
That meeting had called forth some remarks from the

Clironicle, with reference to apprentices, and before going
into the subject of the meeting, namely, to advertise for
strangers, he wished to hear any remarks which any gen-
tleman might desire to make with reference to the appren-
tices.

Mr. GRAYSON said : Gentlemen, before making the re-
marks which I had intended to do, I would merely say it
was late yesterday evening when I received the notice res-
pecting the object of the meeting this day, namely, to take
into consideration the necessity of immediately resorting to
the alternative of immediately advertising to bring. strange
shipwrights into the port. Without giving an opinion. at
present, on this point,
.I should have been glad had a little

more time been allowed for consideration. ft is a very serious

and important consideration, and which, if acted on, will
probably bring us into direct collision with our workmen, and
which, by no means improbable, will end in what is com-
monly called a strike. Before alluding to the subject, I
think we have been called upon by some remarks which were
made at a public meeting of the Shipwrights' Association,
on Wednesday last, and taken up and commented upon
most fully by a portion of the Liverpool press, to offer
some observations in reply. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
We have been publicly charged with multiplying the num-
ber of apprentices to such an extent as thereby to act un-

justly alike towards the operative shipwrights and ship-
owners. We have also been further charged with directly
stimulating the men to demand an advance of wages, and
the ground alluded to, and stated for that assertion is that
we aught be able to rcaliso a greatpr amount of profit from
the employment of our apprentices. Now, gentlemen, it is
not for your satisfaction. I intend to make those remarks.
We know that this is utterly untrue ; but I think the time

is come when we should be doing injustice to ourselves if
we did not explain the circumstances at some length for the
satisfaction of the shipowners, shipwrights, and the public at
large. At that meeting, on Wednesday, one of the most intel-
ligent of the speakers absolutely admitted and traced the cause
of the present scarcity. of shipwrights to the masters them-
selves, for not employing and raising a greater number of
apprentices. (Hear, hear.) These gentlemen, will corrobo-
rate what I state. Surely this must be a lapses lingu : but
it is a pretty fair admission of the state of the case. However,

I think, in-dependent of this consideration, the very facts of
the case, the figures given by the shipwright's association
alone, are still more conclusive. They give in round figures
the number of Liverpool shipwrights at 1700, and the num-
ber of apprentices, if I am rightly informed, is about 750.
Now, gentlemen, it is notorious, although there may be an
immense amount of work in the port, it is very unequally
divided amongst the individual masters; one master may be
overstocked with work, whilst his neighbour is actually with-
out work, and with the bulk of his apprentices unemployed in
his yard. Making allowance for such cases, and the great
number of apprentices always employed on new work in the
yards, I think it will be self-evident that on an average there
cannot have been more than 600 or 600 employed on the
whole. Now, it is notorious, that every shipwright
in Liverpool, unless he wilfully absented himself, has
been at work, or might have been at work, during the
past twelve months; and, consequently, if you divide
500 in 1700, the relative proportions on the
whole average cannot possibly have exceeded the regular
proportion of one apprentice to every three men. Undoubt-
edly there are particular ships, and have been, where a larger
number of apprentices have been employed; but every mas-
ter knows that in the multiplicity of his work he will inva-
riably have some particular ship which is much more
urgently required than others. How is he to get on with his
ship? In one of two ways. Either by offering a higher
rate of wages, and attracting the men from his neighbours,
or, which I consider infinitely preferable, draining all his
own work and concentrating his force on this individual
ship. This accounts for the fact—(l believe it is a fact)—
that a very great proportion, three-fourths sometimes of the
whole of the hands at a particular ship, have been appren-
tices—l, for one, do not deny it
Mr. W. B. Jorms : I have one ""now ; because I cannot
get men. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRAYSON : So far from extortion being thereby prac-
ticed upon the ship owners exactly the reverse is the fact. It
has frequently been found to be a loss to the master to have
his apprentices going from ship to ship, and the gain on the
whole has been decidedly in favour of the ship owner.
(Hear, hear.) I might, perhaps, mention one case.
I had a ship very recently in N. 1, Queen-hi G-huying D..L.,
for heavy repairs. The ship belonged to one of the oldest,
most experienced, and, I may add, one of the most shrewd
ship owners in the port of Liverpool. Without mentioning
any names, I may state the fact generally, that I believe I
never had a larger number of apprentices on any ship. So
far from finding fault, although he personally attended the
ship very frequently, I can only say that the ship owner not
only did not find fault with me for so doing, but on more than
one occasion he asked was it not possible for me to get him
some more apprentices. I think this makes its own com-
ment, and we are at least cleared on the ground of any in-
justice to the shipwrights by this multiplicity of apprentices,
and we also see how it affects the owners.
Mr. M'Erzoy : That remark from the shipowner would
have been in consequence of the men not attending, as well
as the apprentices.

Mr. diAxsox : That was one reason, I think. So far as
my own experience goes, the shipowners are well aware of
this fact. I can scarcely call to mind an instance where I have
made any secret of it to a shipowner. When
_they have
found fault with that state of things, they have been per-
fectly satisfied when it has been fully explained to them.
Another charge brought against us by a portion of the
press is, how comes it that unlike all. other trades in the
port, you not only employ a greater number of apprentices,
but von charge them as full-blown journeymen. Well,
at first sight this certainly requires explanation. It is cer-
tainly unlike trades, generally ; but our trade is unlike trades
generally. In no other trades in our own port, or in any
other trade port in the kingdom, or of the world, does such
a state of things exist as a master tradesman having no benefit
directly or indirectly for the employment of journeymen. I
think this is not so generally known as it ought to be.
Neither directly or indirectly do we receive any profit from
the employment. of journeymen. When we take into ac-
count that we have to employ foremen (I have myself six
whom I never discharge, and who, when unemployed, pro-
duce no return or profit, and who are not employed more
than three quarters of the year), the balance is a very impor-
tant and serious set off against the profits derived from ap-
prentices. I would also state, although certainly they have
been a source of very great profit during the present year,
that we need not go very far back—and I for one turned
over a few days ago to a very recent time, where, for three
months consecutively, the balance of my yard account, in-
cluding apprentices, foreman, and all, was a very heavy and
continuous loss. (Hear, hear.) I would also take this op-
portunity of remarking that the apprentices themselves have
not been without a portion of the increased profit ; 3d. in
the shilling at each advance has been added to their earnings,
and the amount including overtime earned by those appren-
tices has not unfrequently reached, and considerably exceeded
£1 per week.
Mr. APELROY : Very frequently. _
_ _

Mr. GRAYSON : I think those remarks have been called
for, and as I said before I have not made them for our own
satisfaction, but in reply to charges, which if allowed to pass
uncontradieted in the public papers, would certainly make
it appear we were acting in an improper manner. (Hear,
hear). This is a fit opportunity to go into other matters
connected with the trade. I think we stand in a most
anomalous position. The-master shipwrights of Liverpool
are unlike any other masters. In fact the term master is a
misnomer strictly speaking, (Hear, hear) for our very work-
shops, the Graving' docks are not under our own control.
(Hear, hear). We are as it were, to use a common phrase
just now, a species of mediums between the higher spirits
and the lower—between the spirited rappings from above,
and the spirituous responses from below. (Hear, hear).
I think our present situation as such is no sinecure. (Hear,
hear). We have been as it were the butt of the public au-
thorities of this town. lam not yet a very old man, but I
can recollect within the last seventeen years, the firm with
which I have been connected, having been three times re-
moved from their yards by the public authorities, without
any recompense whatever, (Hear, hear), and that at an es-
timated expense of something like £9900 or £7OOO. (Shame)
Not only so, but next to the provisions of building yards,
Graving dock accommodation was the object which af-
fected us nearest. (Hear, hear). I was for some years secretary
to this association, and it frequently devolved upon me to
make application from time to time to the dock committee,
when the Albert dock warehouses were being kilt, and be-
fore the Collingwood dock was completed, that they would
increase our Graving dock accommodation, particularly
towards the centre ofthe port,--in fact to have a Graving dock
attached to nearly every wet dock, or at all events in suitable
proportion. But no, anything would do for the shipwrights
of Liverpool. When the new scheme for the north extension
commTiced, we again applied that the Graving dock accom-
modation might be increased to meet the extent of the wet
dock accommodation, but again no provision was made for
the important matter of Graving docks. (Hear, hear).
The consequence has been that their necessity has at last been
so forced on the attention of the dock committee, that they
were compelled to increase the amount of the Graving dock
aceommmodation. But as though it were to incommode us
in every possible way they could imagine, they have created
those splendid ranges of Graving docks at the very antipodes,
to where the few existing shipbuilding yards are, and where
the great body of the workmen have for years resided.—Not
only so, but even at the present moment, in what is now before
the committee as a new scheme for the. further extension of
the docks, instead of Mr. Bartley Wag advantage of the