The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

battle Alps afloat. (Rear.) I would reeins-
whet quite a different policy—reduce your armanaa-_
taisit your taxation, and thus you will increase
the prosperity, comfort, independence, and hippies= of
year people. I now onus to another department—the ord-
names. It Is impossible for any man to look into the ordnance
Gamma without feeling satisfied that a great deal
MI& he saved by a better and more economical
In that department. (Hear, hear.)
rissairas"sald in answer to my argument ler reduction
lot put that the stock and stores in band had been allowed
to tea Imo low in 1836. I have heard it alleged against the
sight hoo. gentlemen the member for Ripon (Sir Graham)
to whom I always gave credit for his management of the
Admiralty in 18M--(hear, hear)—that he left the depart-
ment in such a state that much more money had to be
expended afterwards in procuring stores for the navy. I can
only say that we found it necessary is the committee on the
ordaanos to resseentrate with the government for keeping
too many stores; and the same reproach applied to the
navy foe the waste wnich took place in thatestablishment.
(Hear, hear.) The committee white sat on the navy and
ordnance say, that you may save 15 per cent. in the
animist of stores, that you will get them better manufac-
tured, and have less waste by keeping a lees quantity,
whilst you will not be obliged to sell 400,0001. or 5000,0001.
worth of old stores, es you have done heretofore, at a loss,
1 well undertake to say, of not lees than from 60 to
76 per cent. (Hear, hear.) You have very much
increased your artillery force, the Sappers arid Miners, and
the engineers. Now a professional gentleman has told me
that a great saving might be effected if a large number of
the artillery corps, who were now maintained here doing
comparatively nothing, were employed to garrison our for-
tresses abroad instead of employing troops of the line fur
that purpose. (Hear, hear.) By this means I am told the
men could be kept in practice in places which were appro.
primed for it, and could be withdrawn from places where
they had no room to maccouvre. I know nothing
en this point =pelf, but 1 mention it ea having
been stated to me on some authority. (Hear, hear.)
I calculated that a groat reduction may be made in the
ordnance department in respect of stores, and what I may
call the civil department of the ordnance. I believe all
parts of the service are themselves dissatisfied with the ord-
nance, and everybody looks this year for a considerable
re modification of that niablistinsent. (Hear, hear) I

therefore come to this conclueinn. These are general end
special grounds why we may hope within the course of a few
years to see a large reduc•ion in our army, navy, and °M-
nines establishments without the least danger to the peace
or security of the country. Turning to the question, what
wu to be doge with our surplus, Mr. Cobden ridiculed the
prejec. of attacking the princip.l of our national debt, 800
millions, with a petty balance of two rxilleins. Reductions
iu taxation, peremptorily demanded by overburdened indus-
tries, would swallow up that small amount. But, by adopting
his plan, the work of reducing taxes and paying off debt
might proceed together. He concluded (amidst load cheers)
by so appeal to the house not to treat this proposal as a party
question.
- - -

The resolutions havina been read,
Mr. LLBOUCHERE said he would show the house,

that unless they whiled to affirm a proposition in contra-
diction to facts which could be proved, and unless they in-
teuded to make a pledge of the most impolitic description,
to which, if once made, it might he impossible to adhere
with aefety, or to retreat from with consistency and
honour, they ought not to agree to the proposal now
placed before them. The proposition of the hon. gentleman was
a repetition of the motion which he had made last year, and
by which he wished to pledge the house to return
to the expenditure of 1835. The honourable gen-
tleman ascribed the increase of expenditure sines
183.5 to successive augmentatious of their warlike
e-tablisbments. The terms of the hen. gentleman's resolu-
tiocs differed, however, in one particular, but that was an
important one, from throe whicn he used lot year, for he
now made the increase of their expenditure 6,000,0001., in•
stead of 10,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) There was, therefore,
a diminution of 4,000,0001., =mediae to the admission of
the honourable gentleman himself. Now, a close sifting of
the accounts would show that the reel increase since

1835 was not 6.000,0001., but 2,365,0001. He held in
his hand a c imparisoa of the expenditure for 1835 and
1849, but he would merely reel for the bows the increase
in round numbers. The increased expenditure for the
natisnal debt was 119,0.101. for the c isolidated fund,
712,0001.; for the army 142,0001.; for the navy, 2,800,0001. ;
for the ordnaneo, 1,180,0001.; for the miscellaneous esti-
mates, 1,166.0001. The total increase was in round num-
bon, 6,400,0001. Of this increase 4,106,0001. was for the
navy, hut iu makiag this comparison a deduction of
612,0001. should be made in favour of the year 1319.
The reductions in the navy in 1349, amounted
to 730,0001. in round numbers; the reductions in
the army to 373.0001 in round numbers, and in the ord-
nance, to 337,0001—m sking, in all, a reduction of 1,447,0001.
(Hear, hear.) The house would bay.: observed that, es
regarded the present year, the estimates of the navy were
ridu.ed by 424 0001. ; and he might observe, were it not for
the circumstance of the First Lard of the Admiralty beng
obliged to pay away upwards of 100,0001. is head money,
for the destruction of pirates int ciug the Chinese coss-,
they would have succeeded in reducing the estimates by half
(H ar, near ) The E.:election in the army esti-
mates, in round numners. was 122i000/.. and in the
ordnance estimate', 193.1001 tasking altogether, in
round nuniters, 745.0001. (Hoar, hear) Now he
contended the house could not, consistently with the fact,
take the assertion of the hon. gentlemen, that since 1835
there h id been a succepiee augmentation in their naval and I
military expeneiture. (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, it
was proved to demonstration, that though up to 1848, such
might have been the case, since then there had been •
diminutim in th. ir expenditure; and on that account
therefore he (Mr. Lobouchere) contended it was impossible
fur the house to agree to the resolutions of the hon. gentle-
man. (Hear, hear.) As regarded the army, he would
undertake to show that in the last tt.ree years expenditure
had diminished. lie held in his band a return of the num-
ber of men voted by that house in the last three
years. In 1845 and 46, there were voted 100,000 men ; in
1846 and 47 there were voted 108,000 men, and in 1943 there
were voted 113,000 men. Now, in 1349 the number voted
was 103.060, whilst in the present year they intended to vote
only 99,000. (Hear, heat.) These facts proved to demon.
Ignition that, instead of their naval and military establish-
ments being on the increase, there was a successive diminu-
tion ; and the face was that in three nears they had sue
needed in bringing about • successive reduction. (Hear,
bear.) He would say a word in reference to a subject that
had deservedly attracted the attention of the house as con-
nected with the navy estimates. The practice was decidedly
an objectionable ens; he alluded to taking on • greater
number of men than was voted by that hcuse, but
which practice had been put a stop to by the
First Lord of the Admiralty. In the present
year not • single man would be taken on more than was
voted by that house. He found the number of seamen voted
is 1848 amounted to 26,000, whilst, in 1849, they numbered
only 25,776. He believed the present was the first year in
which the object referred to, namely, not taking on more
men than were voted, had been effected. It was desirable
it should be carried into effect, and he (Mr. Lsbouchere)
rejoiced to be able to announce that suck had been accom-
plished. (Hear, hear.) But, though he bad thought it
right to correct what he believed to be a misconception and
misstatement of the hon. gentleman the member for the
West Hiding of Yorkshire, yet it could not be denied that
of late years there had been a considerable increase in the
naval and military establishments of the country. Ile
begged to call the attention of the house to what were the real
causes of that increase. (Hear, hum.) In the first place
it was caused by the erection of the several works of de-
fame, which were of great megeitude and entailed a heavy
expenditure, though one of only a temporary nature. There
were the works of defence in the dockyards, as well as in
Malta and elsewhere, and which were undertaken from •
strong sense of absolute necessity, so that the money ex-
pended had not been wasted, but well applied ; and he rejoiced
that at present that source of expense had been checked, if
net stopped. (Hear, hear.) Another great cause of the
additional expendimre since 183.3 had been the necessity
of creating an establialuni nt of steam vessels, whi*
was obviously necessary for the effective candidate
of their ff-et, and which at the outset cost more than of
late or than they would for the future. (Hear, hear.)
That expenditure has necessarily been incurred; but
he rejoiced to state that in future it would not press
near so heavily on their licences. The next cause of increase
arose from the fact, as referred to by the hon. gentleman, of
the necessity to afford protection to their colonial possessions,
which had increased in number since 1835. (Hear, hear.)
Again, referring to the gross expenditure of 1335, as com-
pared with 1849, a great portion of the six millions differ-
ence remained to be accounted for, and to which he begged
to call attention. The first cause of the increase might be
classed under the consolidated fund head, being an item of
712,0001., which, with various miscellaneous expenses,
amounted, in round numbers, to 2,478,0001. These expen-
ditures, which were for civil purposes, night he classed under
three heads. First, the charges which had, in • great mea-
sure, at various times, been forced upon the government by
that house—(hear, hear)—acted upon, he believed, by the
demands of the various constituencies. (Hear, hear.)
S condly, the charges that resulted from unforeseen
calamities ; and, thirdly, the charges at present defrayed by
parliament, which heretofore were paid from other MIMI%
and which, in his opinion, should never have been added to
the expenses of the country. (Hear, hear.) He would
first proceed to state the charges that might be, and were,
classed under the first head. There were harbours of refuge,
141,0001.; county rate, 148,0001.; poor rate, 198,0001. ; par-
liamentary printiog, which he agreed with the hon. gentle-
men (Mr. Cobden) was a monstrous item, 82,0001.; prison
discipline and convict expenses, 400,0001. ; public education,
including the Irish colleges, 225,0001, ; the registrar
general, 71,0001. ; British Museum, 40,0001. ; all these
sums, he begged to Mate, were given in round
numbers. He next came to the secand clam—that of
us. seen calamities, prominent amongst which he found
the burning of the old house of parliament, and an item of
45,0001. set down; whilst for the distress in Ireland there
was set down 163,0001. The third class of expenses, which
were at present paid by them, though not heretofore,
were—fees of the House of Commons, 100,0001. ; postage,
44,0001.; Irish constabulary, 570,000/. ; London and Dublin
constabulary, 40,0001. ; charges for Hong Kong, 70,0001.;
with consular expenses in China, 33,0001.—a11in round
numbers. (Hear, hear.) Thus, he wished to give the
broad features of the ease to the house, that they
might see bow matters in reality stood since the
l year 183.5. (Hear, hear.) He thought he had then
shown that the statement of the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Heiden), and which he invited the house to confirm, vs.,
that the isms. of expenditure since 1835, was mainly
owing to their military and naval ntablishments, was un-
just, as also was the statement that the increase, from what-
ever cause it arose, had been up to the present time 11Z1110.
the (Hear, laser.) He would be as glad as any he
pedants to see that house able to reduce the burdens of
the country, and to bring the army estimates to the le el eel

he thought
(Hear. heal
optatatdploedpfice
adopting,
you to 1835. But he thought he would not be dealing.•i • with
l the house, or with the country, did he express Ilse convictionr .
that, taking the chance of humus affairs into eonsidera•
they could hope to reduce in a short time their naval t"'
military establishments. (Hear, hoar.) That bele a"
caliber 'whoinlwald notnot
wbeilijinusgtrfieadd
If hon. gentlemen would use the figures which he had
laid before them they would find they should reduce
army and navy expenses by some 1,300,000 f. ander th.
amount of 1835, or else decide upon an alteration as re gardee4
the civil services to which he had already referred. (Year ,
hear.) Before going further, be (Mr. Labouchere) theul
refer to that portion of the hon. gentleman's speech which
related to the condition of the army. The hon. guilen
had stated that, in a conversation which he bad with a le?
garian general, that military, penenage laugh* at the.
English "skeleton regiments,' and cowered the Eerlieh
with the Austrian system. Now he (Mr. Labonchere) could
not help thinking that the Hungarian knew Laughed, not
at the many officers, but at the few soldiers, (Hsu,
hear.) The truth was, that system was adopted in this
country through motives of economy. The principle in ibis
country wee to adapt the army to the smallest passible num.
her compatible with the safety of the country, gni always
with the understanding that they should be at liberty to
ensue their forces when necessity should require. (Hear,
hear.) It Will all very well for the Hungarian general te:
laugh, but probably he understood not the teenarnie a dive,
that kept regiments in a "skeleton" coadi(ion. Meer
hear) What was the army of Austria compared with that
of England? He believed it amounted to urns fesiro
men. (Hear, hear.) Why the nation that possessed a 23i.
litary establishment on such a scale could aff md Live its
due proportion of officers and soldiers, and ira ftgi.
month prepared for war at any moment, ith'ead
of having them "skeleton regiments." (Hear, hear)
The question was, were their naval and military atabish.
meats excessive? (Hear, hear.) He
_(Mr. Labouthere)
smarted they were not. (Hear, hear.) He agreed OA' Li
possible economy should be exercised : but it waild be
foolish economy were they to pare down their navel and
military establishments to a point that would reeler
them totally inefficient. (Hear, hear) The result
would be, on some sudden occasion or eakermacy,
an increased expenditure without preparatioc, red
consequently. a wasteful outlay of the public rands. (lieu,
hear.) Their policy wu not to keep overgrown establah-
menu, but, on the contrary, to keep them at to redu:(-I a
Lumber as possible, but always providing that they eh Id
be susceptible of increase when necessity required. Confining
the question to their colonies, he hoped to be able to satisfy
the house that government was dealing vigor.ualy, ttdeuti
cautiously, in the curtailment of expels-if:or., as they
might perceive from a statement which ho would then
lay before them. He begged to commence with the
Cape. In the Cape in April, 1847, the number
of troops was .5,385, whilst in January, 18-50, they
did net exceed 4,180. He should state that of late a
lore• of Caffre police had been este:dished and organised,
which would prevent the necessity of employing mops to
the same extent as heretofore—(hear, hears—and, consider-
Mg that in that colony they were about to have r:pretenta-
five institutions, they should be expected to beer t eonsider-
able portion of the expenses. (lieu, bear.) In Canad, in
April, 1837, the number of trcps was 6,400, woilot a' pr.:-
sent they were only 4,300 ; end there also the principle had
been carried out, not harshly to the cclony, hit as it had
been carried out in the mother country. (Hear, hear.)
In the West Indies two regiments has been with-
drawn within the last three years. In Austalia the'r-ps
had been reduced; as also in Sidney. In Van liene-.'s
land it could not be so well accomplished, seeing that a
garrison was necessary there, it bathe a penal settd nitht.
He (Mr. Labouchere) would advert for a moment to "he
sta'ement of the hon. gentleman as regarded the grit roc-„
establishments of this country compared with America. T 'e
hon. gentleman had stated that America protect;
shores and commerce with a far smaller number of al isa
war than England employed. Now, he disl cot
that a great fleet was necessary to protect their couni.ty
commerce. Yet they should recollect that E-d:lan :n
great measure owed her present proud elsvrion to t r
solar position ; and he felt that England 'should ever
position to collect ten or a d.zen soil of the line, at a ,r
sneiit's notice, for any emergency that might 0:
(Hear, hear.) He did no: think it we-
right of them to reduce their naval e r
such a condi:ion a. would not enable them at any •
to ce-Ilect that number of ships of the fine. (it a-.
he were called upon to look at America, he should
at other countries. (Hear.) He wes happy to he:;' s
their relations with all European ration, were of
pacific kind, and he hoped there was little chance t
being disturbed—(hear); but when he looked at t.-:e
Russia and France, he could not consent to
country of the power of sending to sea a Cut war '
reepect of this great maritime nation. (Hear ; .
that so far from the existence of that povee
the chance of war it was a security kr peace.
had now disposed of whet he considered the n;.:n
the resolutions, namely, that there havioz ls,:eri a (.
sive increase of expsnnithro since 1835, ae:l that s. er

iic Aci,. Tea

• .rei•ing
ar )

being mainly attritiutable to the anententatie..
and military estsolishments of ttis cmnery, the
pledge Intl( speedily to reduce the ex,
of this country within the limits of t
referred to. Toe other propotitime he rem.
corollaries 0 that main one. lie was not at all diy.
deny that taxes were very had things, and I
would be well if the country could do withci
(Laughter.) But he telt sure that the hon. gentlem o -
rejoice, in common with himself, that since the v: t
most important changes had been made in the
this country—charges which tended, he believed, t , c
permanent benefit on all classes of the communoe ' •
tun had been remitted which, without bliagi-einiri‘^
the Exchequer, had bad the effect of favouring t•
titular class, and injuring the bulk of the
population. He held in his heed a document which. a.t'.ri.e
use had not obtained it from the vote mhoe of that by .e
was nevertle.el•es so instructive that he could wish is a. re to
the hands of every member of that house. It 1/44 a MA?
published by the host member for 11 a4min (Mr. watt
is
which was illustrated, in the form of lines, the recent cease
of the commerce, (industry, and revenue of this country.
here (hold•no up and referring to his map) wire the trios
of coin, of consols, and of various article.. pre sent,4 in lilies
of such a varying and eerrii,i asp tracer, that the map
resembled in that respect a map of the Andes cr the Al re-
unite There was two features in this Toro which he rtc anted
with great satisfaction. On looking at the lices which rerre
tented the expenditure of the country, hr four 1 that it.
years 1813, 1814, and 191.5, the emendi•ure rare t
mentions height. (Laughter.) But since Coot 1.
had been pretty regularly and gradually declieirg.
hear.) It was quits true that from 1535 the !tees wf:
creeping up—(laughter); but then came the turt,:no
in 1848, and from that period the lines were tom
down in a matner which must be very gratityii
anyone who observed it. On the who.e, the .1.,
dituro of this country wore very much the r•ot.
of an inclined plane ' from the period which he hal
first mentioned, do en to the persist time. S ill moo
gratifying was it to observe, that while the exparAture of
the country took a slope downwards, there were la ea in-
dicating that the prosperity of the trade of the country.
measured by its Exports and imports, had bees sot 'v i•ro-
gressing. (Cheers.) The honourable gen•leniari had
called the attention of the house to the salaries et the ;lie's,
and had declared that in his opinion they ware moor: to
amount. Now he would admit that it was possible that in
our judicial establishments me owe might be advanta:zerus.ly
pushed further than it had been. But when the hon zeta! e.
man talked of America as presenting an example wbieh this
country was bound dimly M tollow, cm a question 1:1“ that,
he must beg spin to remind biro how totally ditfir nt wee
the circumstances of the two countries. bear
Ile really believed that there was eethO:, of
which this country was more justly proud thin
the character and conduct of its judges.
The effects were not to be estimated by any emery et:c. :
the effect of conciliating the goodwill of the people o: :bts
country, and inspiring runect for the law, was incele.O.:e—
(Hear, hear)--and he must say that that woula I.e a
wretched and miserable economy which would batool •he
lots of such advanteger. Let there be economy in
administration of the law, but let the pay of the judgi, re
sufficient to operate as an inducement to the ornate r.
' the bar and lawyers of the highest character to axeoe
*eats on the bench. (Hear, hear.) The hen. e, •'•
man bad talked about America. He (Mr. Lahouchcor t hit
been in the United States, and had no prejudice against as
institutions; on the contrary, he saw with deigh: sr..l ad-
miration the progreu that great country was main; in
prosperity. Bat be was not an indiscriminate admirer of
American institutions. Ellen, hear ) He believed there
were many resin eta in which this country hada „Oita
advantage over the United States, and its judicial c itoblish-
menu were, in his opinion, amonost the number.
t bleat.
hear.) He hoped honourable members would not be
deterred from voting egaiust the resolution, by the
fear of misinterpretation, whether on the part of their on.
stituents or of the country at large. lie (eat iltigie
however desirous the people of this country nu :et
be of economy, they were at the same tone
too sagacious and too intelligent to be no 01
by the mere name of economy. He hoped the butte
would pursue the same course as it had else,. ear.
sued on that subject that of allowing the e 0 "'n.
meat to proceed with the estimates, end that tr..y
would not think it necessary beforehand to adirm
lutions which he humbly submitted were income: soot ,
she facts, or be induced to take a pledge the adoptien
wu mot inexpedient with reference to their
duty. (Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONEIt said be should not give his supper):,s
intended to do, to the resolution' of the 500. geu
(Mr. Cobden) if he thought the affirming of them no.
dues the effective force of the army and navy.
rake:... t
was,
in his judgment, ample room for redurtion
s".• ....
trenching on anything which was essential to the
of both services. (Hear, hear.) He was "tending
sition to many of those with whom he generally so, o
being convinced that money was extrarsguntly
should vote for Mr. Cobden's proposition. The h0n..13.,,;^.
bar then wandered iiito the question of taxation. spa °
tended that Enelishmen groaned under their bu'•..".,
because their industry was taxed, while that of the C
was left free. Thence he proceeded into a Wren." Olot"
lion, and denounced the Peel bill of 1819. a sea mot
Mr. HUME would take the parliameotary
he found that in the year 1835, the expenditure irtne ''"
to 44,422,000 J.. and he found that in this yetr.
it amounted to 50,853,0001., showing that t"
crease, instead of being only two millions, as stated
the right honourable gentleman, came very nearly I;'_2
millions, as was stated by bit hos. friend. (Heat 0",.
This increase had been caused by their holding such ripen
sive establishments as their army and nasy to their prerei,nt
extravagant extent. He held in his hand a return, w.f:
sow prepared by Mr. Bariog, and this was the MM.
it
In the year 1835 the expense of sasistainioa

r.'u<critt

riot ::
ti 4r,