The Express.
London, England, 1868-04-17 00:00:00

• THE IRISH OH OEM

GREAT MEETING LAST NIGHT.
Last night a great public meeting in support of
Mr. Gladstone's resolutions on the Irish church was held
at the St. James's-ball, having been convened under the
auspices of the National Reform Union. The proceedings
appeared to create the liveliest interest, for long before
the hour announced for Earl Russell to take the chair
the large hall was crowded to excess, end by half-pest
seven o'clock there was not a vacant seat to be bad. Be-
tween half-put seven and eight o'cleck, the hour fixed for
the opening of the meeting, bemired& of persons attempted
to gain admission, but were totally unable to do so ; and it
is no exaggeration to state that had the hall been half se
large again, there would have been an audience to fill every
corner of ft. Great disappointment was expressed outside
by those who had not been fern:mate enough to secure
places. A portion of one of the side galleries was appro-
priated to the accommo latior. of a number of distin-
guished ladies ; and amongst the earliest airiest" was the
Countess of Russell, who was smeompanied by her daughter,
and their entrance into the hall was the signal for • Ind
burst of enthusiasm upon the part of the crowds 1 audi-
ence. Precisely at eight o'clock Earl Russell asomoded the
platform, and was teuived with great cheering, the
people standing up and waving their hats. His lordship
wee accompanied by Viscount Ambirley, M.P., Sir H.
Hoare, Bart., the Hon. Auberon Herbert, Mr. Robertson,
M.P., Mr. L. O'Beirne, M P., Mr. E. Miall, Mr. Vernon'
Harcourt, Q.C., Mr.J. D.Morton (Manchester agentof the
National Reform Union), soda number of other influential
gentlemen, the platform being crowded.
The noble CHAIRMAN, who on rising, was received with
loud and repeated cheers, sold—l have the honour of ap-
pearing before you to preside at a groat meeting—for this
is an occasion of, se it appears to me, a national crisis of
the greatest importance. (Hear, hear.) The people of
England hope to put an end to • war—not a thirty years'
war—but whet I nosy call a 300 years' war, which has
prevailed on the subject of the Irish church establish-
ment, and I trust that we shall all epee that we aught
to make a treaty of perpetual peace and friendship with
the people of Ireland—(cheers)—and that Mr. Glad-
stone—(loud cheers)—will be furnished with full
Powers to conclude and sign that treaty of
peace. (Renewed cheers.) In speaking on the
subject of the Irish church there is a great difficulty, and
that difficulty is to find any arguments in defence of it
which we are celled upon to meet. (Hear, hear.) There
are many persons who think that • church establishment,
supported or connected with the state, does not promote
religion and morality. (Hear, hear.) There are others,
among whom I reckon myself, who think that a church
establishment does promote religion end morality. Of
course those who say that a church establishment due
nothing to promote religion and morality are
quite ready to give up one of the worst establish-
mente that can exist, namely, that of the Irish
cherub—(cheers)—and those who are in favour of
church establishments Sad that to make • church
establishment for one-eighth of the people against at least
six-eighths is such a bole glue on eautch establishments,
and such an injury to the cause, that they are quite ready
to surrender it also. (Hear, hear.) Therefore the diffi-
culty is to find anything like an argument that is used in
its defence. But instead of argument we have dreadful
prognostics and vaticinations. We have lately been told
that if the Irish church is disestablished, if the connection
with the state is put an end to, there will be an end of
our civil and religious liberties. (Laughter.) And we
have been lately told not only this, but it has been im-
parted as a sort of secret to a clergymen in Buckingham-
shire—(loud laughter)—that it would be worse than
a foreign conquest of this Wand. (More laughter.)
Now, one is a little puzzled to recoacile that prophecy with
the line which was taken by the members of the govern-
ment in the late debate in the House of Commons, when
Lord Stanley moved an amendment which was in effect
that though some modifications might be made, the ques-
tion of disestablisbuient and dieendowment ought to be re-
served for the pediment that is to meet next year. (Hear,
bear.) That looks very much like an admission that it is
a question to be considered and decided next year either
for or against, most probably against disestabliehment.
(Cheers.) But what would you say if any foreign
power—happily there is no Bulb case likely to arise,
because we are at pun with all the powers of
the world—but if some groat military power
was to say to us, " Unleu you submit to terms degrading
and dishonourable to you, England will be invaded and
conquered next year r What a strange answer it would be
to such a threat as that to say, " We cannot consider it
this year, but if you propose to conquer us next year we
will take it into consideration." (Cheer.; and laughter.)
So that I really do not see bow these two parts of the
government proposition hang very well together. Having
spoken of the first resolution of Mr. Gladstone, which is
clearly for disestablielnent, and I think we should
all agree that the sooner it bikes place the better
—(cheers, a cry of " No," and renewed cheers)—
I come now to the question of dieendowment •
and here I will say that my object—and I have to rfpfs4
very frankly to you upon this subject—my object is
equality. I think that all the subjects of her Majesty in
Ireland are entitled to be placed upon a footing of
equality. (Hear, hear.) And it is rather a question
whether that equality should be obtained by the endow-
ment of all the different communions, or by the disendow-
ment of all. (Cries of " Disendowment" and (sheen.) I
do not disguise my preferences on this subject, but I say
that as I perceive the people of England in general, the
protestant people of England and Scotland, do not wish to
endow all these communions, and that, on the other hand,
the Roman catholic& of Ireland do not wish to accept of en-
dowment, I at once discard any preference of my own. (Hear.)
That in, in fact, the sense of Mr. Gladstone's second reso-
lution, pointed clearly at dieendowmeet, and of course
when the complete disendowinent of the established
church in Ireland has been obtained those who say that
no church establishment promotes religion and morality
vu gain some advantage in argument, but I own I cannot
think that the church of England will be any great loiter
by this diaendownient—(bear, hear)—because it is very
much as if you were to say to a swimmer, "Now I think
you will swim a great deal better if you have a large lump
of lead tied round your neck." (Cheers and laughter.)
The church of Ireland as it at present exists
inthat country is that lump of lead ; it does not at all help
the church of England to swim, but rather tends to mats it
fall to the bottom. (Hear, hear.) Well, gentlemen, Ido
not wish to detain you long upon this subject. There is a
very important resolution, namely, the third resolution of
Mr. Gladstone—a resolution soaking. the crown to plan at
the disposal of parliament her Majesty's interest in the
revenues and the benefices in Ireland. That is in con-
formity with advice which I gave • great many years ago.
to William IV., and which his Majesty was pleased to
accept, but having to contend with Sir it. Peel, Lord
Derby, and Sir James Graham, I did not succeed. I was
beaten in my endeavour, but I trust that Mr. Gladstone
will be more fortunate, and if his advice to the crown is, as I
suppose it will be, to advise her Majesty to do what Wil-
liam IV. did, I Lope that parliament will assent to Mr.
Gladstone's proposal, and that disestablishment and disen-
downient will take place. I remember being present at a
meeting, not in this, but in another ball in this metropolis,
when the Prince Consort delivered a very eloquent speech,
in which be declared that in his °pinball King William 111.
was the greatest and wisest prince that ever reigned in
this country. Now when William 111. obtained the throne
in this country it was • nation whether the people of
Scotland should be compelled to maintain the episcopal
church of England as then established, and William 111.
in his wisdom decided the matter in accordance
with the wishes of the people of Scotland,
and was able to establish peace in Scotland,
and open the road to the prosperity which
has since obtained in that country. (Cheers.) It
was not given to him, it was beyond his power, having to
contend against a civil war in Ireland, todo for Ireland what
he did for Scotland, but I trust that her moat gracious
Majesty will do what William the Third was unable to
accomplish, and will establish peace in Ireland by yielding
on this question of establishment and endowment to the
wishes of the Irish people. (Cheers.) I have only further
to say that there seems to have been started of late a
theory which, as lam an old fashioned man, and used to
the old ways of the constitution, rather shocks me, namely,
that instead of having men in whom you can confide to
lead you, you should have men of no settled convictioes,
no settled opinions, and who are therefore more likely
to follow anything that nu be started. If I admire and
wish to support Mr. Gladstone— (cheers) —it is on quite
different grounds—l have seen variations of opinion in
the right hon. gentleman, and what states is there who
must not confess that he his often changed his opinions on
particular points—though Mr. Gladstone has changed his
opinion, especially upon this question of the Irish church,
He thought first the opinion of the state ought to govern
Nan consexion with the established church ; but whoa
Sir R. Peel propued. his grant to Maynooth, Mr. Glad-
stone, having first resigned his office and placed himself in
a position in which no one could( doubt the disinterested
nature of his opinions, then stated that if the catholic' of
Irelanddesired to be endowed, in his opinion that was a
demand which amid not be resisted. But again in the
progress of events be ham now brought forward the resolu-
tion of which you have all heard—he says that
neither protestante nor esthetics ought to be
establish or endowed, but there must be equal disesta-
blishment and disendowonent for ell. (Cheers.) But this
is to be said for Kr. Gladstone, that whatever his opinions
were, he has taken great care to form them at the proper time,
and that when he be formed them he has openly avowed
them. (Cheers.) Well, then I say lam in favour of that
old-fashioned system of choosing men of integrity and men
of ability to lead you. I should be very sorry the
time came when the Penis of England would my that on
account of • man's sincerity and integrity they would not
centide in him as • leader. (Cheers.) Stich • time will
not coins, said I am persuaded that you may confide In
Kr. Gladstone SA a leader of integrity and sinerity,