The Express.
London, England, 1850-02-20 00:00:00

to p tat. tradealeate amounts, for not oily stock in trade
mi:egil heelf, bat 6 suet be rated • there wesa ham to be an
of Mew sames affairs, sad if that did sot re-
sult in a pieta sad meant* statement of these affairs,
lie rate t be leMinually appealed agalest, sad say rate
at all bombs impisible. It was =that pound, and en
that posed en/y4l: aft was annually passed establish-
the pessoual property, to pretest
molligollem •I property whatever. 16 hr front there
bolsi • growing blades, of the injustice of which the owners
of real property had a right to complain (a oemplaitt which
was rather hinted at than directly ezpr.ued by the hos. gen-
tleman), cot oaly was this alkgation wholly unfotusded,
but it was eseeplately disproved, the burden harts diminished
by one 'alias, while the population had isereseed from ten to
seventeen millions. This was not all. The hon. gentleman
had passed very lightly over mother pert et the subject—
*e proportion borne by the lead to other real property
assessed to the relief of the poor. Re had stated the land to
has. two-thirds of the whole.

jut)
ot
au t hcec speechoft wt ri a
uo f theitaikirt:al hone
hgwe
i.thbutgonetedertne.
ofte gentleman,
me ahEipeaylnno.wgoht!,hisnal
.toeho!o-oeoltnuw::p7lisierriat
briciimyosohhis.:ilahe
4.2:44...aeit.__
,411,(tr a a .....sty‘olTtßhitaa" rote
ate baronial
ther iris
inbeetio
sees is
s'obe
a" urgent na and
's
e.
foreignl scot: affhaoanhlitit telpie ddmrro
dn.pirc
e parliament I',:. afiftetennto:
it
gentlemaniltimt whether th( ' de
het ktt
yon may
me hoonow II
t. to
en e,eee fight. your
le e
wba theyettle:
thweoemeabk use.irieimthhboilweedin,iwiechertoaouet
wet practical way of obtaining
thweeaCel of any knight
stated his political reputation on a protrthh:pmiutteorhniesietmuttoeistioutatrhoocutii.t
used
•I right to at Lapittfieenalm reputation
d
eezhpirsislipr,oApio•wihtiiocnh.
That was a question to which he was bound to giveale&
iseplieit answer. The hon. gentleman spike of the spirit ad
' Grey) had listened to that speech with wean girstifinsue
temperd
i d not iil
containwhich ails:grated
from the spirit and temper which pervaded O. (Rear,) It
any nee, and could not in the sligetest de gret be made the
subject of criticism. (Hear.) In the answer which heeele-
G. Grey) made he hoped he also abstained hem anything
which could be considered as giving Orel:tee toaty
eion of the community, or as indicating a weepr.
sympathy with that portion of It in whose behalf the bon geetleman spoke, and for whom he to -k epee l'imsell the
tiouTl
irk—the hopeless task, as he (Sir G. Grey) helje,d n-i
restoring protection to agriculture. (flea,, rev.) Ile ;Tee
hetereste were intimately connected with the line, rind is opinien nothing could be more prejudicial to the inters, '
ill
s I 11.1
th relief
ll eet It
ref
e adopt.
o"fet erdmt i ate heipteua(t systemrr: parliament
rmt
wasnlnht e
resulta rb
ou'yei a any
tloehl ifgea thet
discussionsghquestion.egetelmiemvtedw et
that
in
ei I:t(ti le
thiet a„, recurs
.t.hses r parliament
a'oatn•
this subjat would, at least, have the eft. et of • ,e,,,,e„
, l
selves dFEtbb
shei
on
a yner
eeustunmhc coruscations," uitoecees in
reasonsi:t te nfweodimbrs ,n,',:hh
II::
e.c
sevhheuoßyl
iteour for
dmaiwtt
oppose
do:Bhphuneey"eltylevoke
be,t.
the
those who had been led astray by the tri ant-:„.
aided by that persevering industry which thareetethed
tura' cages to suppose that they did not possess in aneoli
degree with the rut of their countrymen. Mote ht.., )
gentleman. (Cheers.)
The Hem F. W. CHARTERIS preferred an appeal foe
justice to a shit in forma prtuperia. Capital, stock in trade,
' and funded properties, did not pay their fair proportion of
the taxes. If the legislature could not contrive an equitable
rating the landed interest could justly require a measure of
compensation. They asked no favour, bet a right.
Mr. A ANDERSON, while iteehee., to emharress the
question by moving the amendment of which he had given
notice, entered into some details, ithseine the advantsgeous
results of corn law abolition upon the eutployment and food
of the people.
Mr. H. K. SEYMER, in the mach playing between A:I
England and Lancashire, would take the aided All England
and believed he should win. He stood by his class, which
was the most important in the country. If the agricultural
party bowled well he anticipated a return to protectioo before
the close of the session.
Mr. RICE advised members opposite to abandia all idea
of protection. He was an old freetratier, but had voted for
a moderate fixed duty for revenue purposes, and still be-
laved that measure would have been beneficial by breaking
the fall of the agriculturalists to a total repeal.
Sir J. TYRELL denied that the ouseon of a prayer fee
prob. ction from recent agriculturist p'tttione signified an
abandonment of the claims for restoreeete The increased
consumption of commodities attributed .1 tree traders to na-
tional prosperity, he compared wi'h the fecivities of burglar,
Total amount £5ii802,000 ••• £90,972,000 after breaking into the larder end robbieg the till. At ::. 1
So that, so ter from the land having gone out of cultivation comparison the parties chi, ft: 'melee eel laughed irrepreee
in 1848, as the hon. gearleman imagined, there was a poeitive bly, and the laugh redoubled when the ban baronet pro-
increase In its value as compared with 1843; and the smaller seeded to desizeitte Mr. Villiers as the destroyer, end Mr.
proportirm which its velue bore to that of other kinds of real Cobden the aivider of the spoil.
property arose from the still greater increase in those species Mr. HOBIIOUSE contended that Mr. Disraeli's pro-
of property. (Cheers.) The general result was that, while positions were absurd vim Lis own snowing. The meteier
there had been an Increase on the whole of the real property for Buckinghamshire completerd of the inequali•y et re-
assessed to the poor of .5,069,7361, the increase tier cent. had 'don, yet proposed to remove only two out of twelve me.
been—on land, 2.5; houses, 49 ; nitwit's, 126.1; while the lions of those unequal taxes. All taxes were ceeesserey
diminution on the other tunes did not exceed .5 per eomewhat unjust, but their weight generally fell upon the
cent. (Hear, hear.) haul of land bearing, as to operative chow, because lounge upon mere luxures ci..l
1842, a proportion of 62 to 48 to other kinds wale
ptioniiioi::
not be relied upon bas revenue. Taxate n was at preset% ,
of property, the proportion was now that of 45 to 65. (Hear, rude instrument. The compenericn claimed by :he a.r.
hear.) The first prop-sal of the hon. gentleman was that culturiste they already punned in the shape of ...ee.
the whole of the establishment charges of the poor law exemptions from taus, and had &haul at least epee' .:-.
should no longer be charged on the property assessable to the late redactions of excise and other duties.
the poor rate in England, Ireland, and Scotland, but should Lied I. eILANNEas thou .. ... . ,
~
be borne by the imperial treasury. He estimated thou .
nous reasunable mai practicable. Tney involved
charges at 1,600,0001, which might be mance For Hag- . . ..._ .. ... ___.
land, the returns gave them at 776,0001. justice to aey elan; and, a they could not entirely ?more
agricultural d:stre-s, would alleviate it. The destine:l,a ',l
Mr. DISRAELI—The last return is 980,0001. crime was a fallacious test of the decrease cf distress. I:
Sir G. GREY said that in that year the operation of the proved emly that the agricultural population was less turee•
act with regard to removals hail thrown the accounts into lent under euffering then the maaufactur,eg. Adeitiens tad
confusion, and oc.asioned an Le ttttt of expense; bet a very been suggested to the prepositions, end they had bor.
great reduction had taken place, to the • :teat of 200,0001.; termed i 'complete, limed, wed peens lure; but co ,a:..1
sad he believed that for the tut year the establishment argaineuts were adduced ageinet them. Sir R. P. net
charges amounted as nearly as peasibie to 776,0001. With long since, had concerned the justice of mussing late, upon
mud to Ireland he had no detailed information, but the personal property, lad these were principles this- were now
other half of the 1,500,0001. might be taken as the este- proposing to earl. out. A mitigation, if not • roam, of the
blishment charges for the parts of the kingdom exclusive of wrong iefficte el, would be thus accomplished.
England. The hen, gentleman said the transfer of these Mr. BRIG lIT sail—l must admit that the speech ! tee
charges would violate no pismire., and could not be objected hoe. gentlemen the member for Barkinphamashire has • if%
to as transferring the administration from a local to a general of
a more practical charaver than ',seed. I think ther., c.
authority. There he differed with the hon. gentleman. been fewer eepreesions teat tended to mystify the house a:A
(Hear, hear.) Though a portion of these establishment perhaps the wintery also ; still I cannot refrain from et-
charges die not rest on the same ground as those rendered pressing my strung belief that both the house and the coun•
neeeseau by the money expended for the actual relief of the try will discover that tee grounds upon which the Le.
poor, yet there were many items in which the gentleman Imes his ',Gotten are altogether tette-
greatest extravagence might be practised, and where. by nable. The hon. member for Buckinglistrahire, as I under-
removing the local check of selfinterest, the charge might stand it, Cline, before the house with a proposition bared
be almost indefinitely increased. (Hear, hear.) oocni:df jot
o that
y af.f.
titeb:hleme kind.
iih
ir
,i;no.c
:id'
.11,..
A '", chiefly upon the fact which many hon. gentlemen seen do-
large proportion of these charge. were open to that objet posed to admit without question, that there prevails throuelo.
Lion. The hon. gentleman next proposed that all other out the comer; a very large amount of extreme distress, and
rates raised as poor rate should be transferred from the local in some war or other this proposition Is intended as a compel-
taxation to the general taxation of the country. sation for the loss of the corn law, and he aseerts that it e nc:
Mr. DISRAELI—Not the county rate. unjust to the general interests of the country, while it wie
Sir G. GREY had understood the hon. gentleman not give a real and consffiereble advantage to the classes of
to include the county rate • but he included the expenses which the hon. gentlemen is admitted to be the advocate.
of registration of jury list', Of sanitary measures, and differ- Now, I am not disposed to admit without question the hon..
ent rates, amounting altogether to 500,6001. member's first propeainon, as to the existence of great ago-
Mr. DISRAELI-700,0001. cultural distress at the present moment. Th.re is no hem
memberiu this house, nor many persons out of it. who do
Sir G. GREY—Then the total amount to be Co transferred toe know that there are cuss of tenan t farmers who,
would be 2:200,0001. Looking at the nature of sme of
during this present year, have been carrying on their
these charges, he was not prepared to ask the house to Legs- agriculture' operations not only wi•hout loss. hut act:e-
tas by anticipation any proposal which his right hon. friend ally with a profit. (Stroog expressions of dissent from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whoa he came to deal the opposition.) And further, I am prepared to state
with any available surplus be might have in hand—
that the hon. member has not submitted to the house
Colonel SIBTHORP—Hear, hear. (Laughter.) one single well authenticated case in which the fee of the
Sir G. GREY—Any proposal his right hon. friend might land hos been depreciated in value, or in which its rent eta
make for transferring any particular charge from the local ban permanently lowered. (Hear, hear.) The hon. mem•
to the goner.' taxation. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, in her saes that the farmer, have three hundred millions .tf
arguing the hon. gentleman's proposal, and cautioning the
capital engaged in the cultivation of the soil, that they are
house not to agree to it, he wished not to be understood saw°.
eul fluting it without profit, and that the few of the
nouncing against the removal of any of these charges. Sem.
such charges had been transferred in 1846, from the local to late' has depreciated in value. Now, I am :or
the most part disposed to dispute these assertions,
the general taxation; and he was not prepared to insist on but, for the sake of argument, I will admit the:
such • distinction in principle between those charges and what he sass is true. Has the hon. member ever cast re
some which the bon gentleman had enumerated, as would
eye over other di scriptions of property, or considered weer
justify the house in taking its stand on that ground ; though have been the fluctuations in it. vent., during the la,: t. ur
he was certain that extravagant expenditure would in some
year; ? (Hear, tear.) Has he inquired into the condtem
eases arise. In future, in dealing with any specific prOpesi• of the mining interest, of the Iron manufacturing inters,:.
tion as to theme charees, he woulecume to it uufettered and
or that of the owners of mills engaged in all branches of
unprejudiced; and in resisting the hon. gentleman's the staple manufactures of this country .7 (Hear. hear I
propesition, he would not pledge himself as to hie Has he ever inquired whether their selling price, or that it
future course. The third resolution was that, from
their productions, has been as high during the last three
March next, the whole amount of the charge for years as it wasfir some years previously 1 And above a.i
the relief of casual poor should also be trans- has the hon. member ever cast his eye over the sheer list. in
ferred from local to general taxation. Without even attempt-
which 1 here he has no other inter-et than that of ast oc-
ing to give au esemate of the expense, the hon. gentleman tator ? (Hear, and a laugh.) It hes had made those
proposed to transfer the cost of the casual poor throughout
inquire 1, be weal have found that the great rsterny
Eneland. Ireland, and Scotland, at once to the consolidated
fund, and said that no possible reason could exist naiad lesion of this house. (Hear, hear.) Four or fire peers ante
this being undertaken by the treasury. the railway interest was perhaps unnaturally prosperous. sow.
interest has beet affected—affected, ton, by the unwise iecis-
Mr. DISRAELI—There was no casual poor in Ireland. it is unnaturally depressed ; and with regard to that intetreesat.
(Laughter.) as connected with the poor rate, 1 would relined the house.
SSA over 3,tele parishes
p smounu IJ
of • y there. Ireland, then, was to receive no benefit in England, that the poor rate of these parishes
e,
the t
on.
Sir G. GREY admitted there was a very stringent law we have factsto show that the railways
objectionable than the transfer proposed. The report of the jenty of which have not station in these pro
from the alteration. He could conceive of nothing mare 800,00 W. per annum, and that these ratters. ,e.
tin.
pay
owing to local examination, and the interest which existed (Hear, hear) Crime (proceedei Mr. Bright),.•
lamentably entrust . a involve's/ • terriele
Poor-law Board recently laid on the table, showed that, 250,00 e/. out of that 800,0001 tour rate. iL.e.eurdingeriepeseoe.'
in keepieg down this branch of expenditure, a very great of high. prices,
to raise the cost of feet
happened had the relief been thrown on the fin If the twee°, tome Were not eew ein
reduction had taken place, which would not have responsibility upon any attempts
for them.
penal treasury, and of which the country would soon lose the abolition of the corn dudes formed no justification
' ea two millions a Tear
benefit were the proposed transfer carried out. Last year They would occasion a traos.ereece . _
eeee,
the hon. gentleman had gone further; he had proposed to from reel prop rty.to thou industnrl
could employments
aproleele
transfer half the local taxation to the general expenditure, were already heavily taxed. How., in
ists hied 5) imel
and, acting the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, satiety the clamour which the pelecttin
farmers ,
.__,e
had proposed the ways and means. In this his present excited during the swam ? The selecseedanea,_e'eree.ei.
scheme was absolutely deficient; he merely said the chan- did not attempt to remove the . ~Y.—,17„,
Nemo and malt. Nor dui they
cellor hail an ovens ming treasury, and had talked of a Mr- the duties on tea, to , o-
thing had fallen from his right hon. friend to justify the bon. willing to support the tettent
B h the:went oe tun lee-
plus sufficient to meet these charge.. He denied that any- one word about reforming the ganteeemlawe.s,.c.,o, or a irrwry
gentleman's assumptioa that the surplus wean be sufficient introduced into the house. Mr. 68 t .
of the' Pra-
I adte that
without involving the necessity of fresh taxation. That position of the honourable member.
admit...e.
s".O ,t ,he
to meet this 2,200,000 e, with an indefinite amount more, I will tell you what is new&
being so, was it just, expedient, or reasonable, without taking It us practicable and simple, and
the Ireposition last sin
a general and comprehensive viewl"..7thst some t"
interest.the
, allteapply to this. rho proposition
doojec!itoioteswhich wereoluseeteo
of
neof
el fa. certain local and eerier'
anticipate a proportion of the surplus revenue ? (Hear.) =limns sterling, now eV.. a
bui,,~g.,
classes, and the general financial.
condition
Tee hon. gentlemen said thee his proposition was ream.- purposes on landed property an Oita.
theabaft_een 15,0.
mended to the Louse by its justice. He did not think the be not so colleted, but bet conferred
..,e g. 171.; A
bon. gentleman rah established that, be cause the charges tioc of the country, a very I. rte. l're, Nee
whi h the hon. gentleman complained of had been assessrid which, much the large et, comes upon trtit
ego':s thq
on real property from the 43rd or E isabeeth, and the claim of the people, and rs peel in taxes
ore by the leo.
which he urged on the growl(' 'hat the protec ion which the 0311SUMe. (Hear, hear.) If thee, as ril__,. the result
land had heretofore enjoyed bait been taken of might be member, theca taxes are • burthee enoeethee r`
~, the ~,,,,
qually advanced by other breeches of industry as well as of his preposition will be that the rte of ~
'aericultural. Then the hoe. gentleman said that his pro. will be able to mist as much to the
proprietor.'sfer of Inall:n.
pellet was practicsl. He (Sir G. Cerny) did not think it was, subtracted fromteak burthens by this tuna
L 0 the new.:
at least to the extent to which he would carry it, (Hear, hear.) Now I think I ..7 itp.
when reek
because the approoriations which he claimed were more than whether the time is not gone by when Lae
the excess which -remained at the end of the financial year, meat would 'Aston to any proposition Noe _ ,„I.,tfy eel
and it would be unjust to the other chimes of the community from property and placing them_
one see on. 0, tho
to have the &sericulture' interest exclusively favoured, whilst consulaptiem. (Loud cries of o Hear, hear.) iab)o
Tioa h in.
they did not derive their fair share of consideration in the great meets of the measures adopted by
that al ille tee"
appropriation of that cum. (Hurl Neither is it prac- baronet opposite during his tenure of eitieeeeise _
.t.
eeeee. can
due, on the ground of the extravagant expenditure which have 'Jun taken oil, which certainly, inentetsese;
on , 0.
would be caused in the traneterence of these bur:lens from never be reimpued. You have found that
eam but tbet the,
' local to general, and from general to 1 mai administration, suseption are not only not the most pr._ ut, e
p_oe,e. ina 1
' The honourable gentleman said that this was only ye destructive of the comforts f
awn o
reullirnoth be
the first of a writs of measures. That Mecum- 'Delius that no Chancellor of the Ex‘..
f qthe country he
Menai also should make the house cautious before Pe found to ask thee the revenue
net only talses
adopted the first meseure, till they knew what the ell- Mores-ad by • system of taxation,
whicheteres with the iltall,•TY
WO* Ine.ietteell t.' be proposed were, and where they w mild the money from the people. but ioni e
woakinn leveletein
lad. (Meer.) The hoe. gentlemen said ho was not in the and comforts of the great bodythe
) Let it then neraltY
habit of stating out Of the house what he was not prepared of the kingdom. (Hear, hear.
comes
f the hoe. mbarm
the
to grate in the house. The hon. gentleman, Weever, kept understood that the proposition e
IlestiOn between
hie ulterior measures to himself. But tb•
themwet* not to this. Ido not say that it is a q hero. eg-
Leeteet tee stem as '•alegeother in the dark wi'h elm Ito som., .4 rat least, land and the towns, because
1a I end ape tow
a,. held tit his hands what be belteeed was a noticed and net has shown that the a ,

Mr. DISTUALI—I bog the right hon. gentleman's par-
don. I did not stake that statement, or advert to the
proportion.

-Sir G. GREY had eo understood him. If the hon. gentle-
man had not adverted to the subject, it was the more neces-
sary he should do so, that the house might know the real
proportion which the land bore to the whole real property
of tie country. The poor-law commissioners, la their report
for 1844, alluded to this subject, and said, " There is no
doubt that the value of the rateable property in Englund has
until riots a groat increase since 1813, and that there has
been en annual program. The total annual value of the pro
perty mussed to the property tax in 1816 In England and
ale was 61,891,4231., whereas the amount in 1843 was
86,802,7302" 8o that, not only had the grog., charge
diminished by one million, comparing 1849 with 1813,
not only had the population increased from 10 to
17 mil, bat during the was period the whole
amount of property asessed had incressed from 61 to 87
millions, the 61 million, bearing the larger charge of 1813,
the 87 millions suffering a burden very much diminiahod in
amount. (Cheers.) He had been enabled to bring down
this return to a later period than when it was quoted last
' session by the Chancellor of the Eachequer, and he found
there had been a propeuive increase each year in the value
of real property—without distinguishing land from other
kinds of real property. In 1813 or 1814, the value was
about 61 millions; in 1142 and 1843 (he would only give the
first flaures—the millions) it was 86 millions ; 1846, 86
millions; in 1846, 88 millions ; in 1847, 89 millions; in 1848
(the last year for which he had returns), 91 millions.
(Hear, hear.) This showed an increase en the whole period
of 39 millions, or 76 per cent.; while the burden was
diminished to the extent of one million. (Hear, hear.) He
would now show the proportion which land bore to other
real property assessed to the relef of the poor. The Poor
Law Commissioner, in their annual report for 184 t, sail :
It is further to be observed, that the Increase in the annual value
of rateable property &floes, not only from the improved cultivation of
the land, and its consequently increased productiveness. but also, to a
meat mesa; from the large number of new homes and other build-
ings, yeah as macaw:tones and warehouses, as well as railways,
canals, and wharfs, constructed from year to year; and, accordingly
the land as such pars a smaller proportion of the local rates in each
sueemeive year, and a larger proportion falls on other portions of rate-
able property. (Hear, hear.)
And the tables showed that whereas the property in land
was 69 per cont , and of other kinds of real property 31 per
cent. in 1826,—the land was only 62 per cent., and other
kinds 48 per cent. in 1644. (Hear, hear.) Still, the pro-
portion falling on land was then nacre than one-half of the
whole; but a return of the increase in the value of real pro-
perty m 1849, as compared with 1843, showed the following
result:

1643. 1818.
Lind £40,167,000 £11,000,000
Howes 35,556,000 ... 37,202,000
loiterers
Other kinds of real property