The Express.
London, England, 1857-06-27 00:00:00

EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 27, 1857.

THE.

That men from an entire misapprehension of the
snare dna enema firm business of the seeleeisseinal
nuns. The area annesticatios of a will wee not all that
was rawafrel The common room limminses of dine
comb requawil mean knowledge, espressos, andledocation.
Then aeons hod to Esterniitse who was to be samentar, and
other gelatins which affected the rights-of prapeeey in the
highest degree. To suppose, therefore, that beeeu.t the
men did not it every day in the week it bad so businees to
In, was as entire a fallacy, Irma whomsoever it might
come, as allythieg that ever entered into the mind of a law
reformer. He admitted it might be lanible to engraft on
that juriniction either bfl \nett", of businen based on the civil
law. These members of the folllOliallioll were of opinion that
the jurisdiction in this matter should be trandened to the
Court of Chancery ; but whether it wva tea. eyed to the
Court of Chancery or to a court of common law, re to an
entirely new tribunal, Smut be mole a separate departmeat.
It must be • distinct department, with distinct names, to
whatever tribunal tbejanediction was transferred, and thorn
font tbaccommiseion new to the madmion that it onght tube
transferred to • new tribunal.' That was the reason why he
should oppose say attempt to do It. than was proposed to
be done by this ha There wen points in the bill with
which he did not agree, but this was an 0,11•Pi..0 on which
they man maerifice their particular view. in order to carry a,
greet nen& (Hear, beer.) With regard to the compensation,
ho hoped the house would enable the governioent to pass •
larger inasure of compensation than the bill proposed to
give. (Hear.) In his opinion it wee an entire inihike to
einwsse that in dealing with the proctors they were dealing
pawns who had a monopoly. If they abolished the
SUM it would ho necessary to esta-
rbtallbw ander the name of clerks, or some
other aims. The business now done by the pro,
baw might he gins to others, but the judge of
the new court men employ f.llll, prison to carry on the
business. The mmethia of salary was a creation to be yet
determined. If he was rightly informed, the proctors ma •
body did not oppose the former hill, and therefore he hoped
that justice would be dose them.
Mr. COLLIEIt, is explanation, said that he was quoting
the wads of the Lord Chancellor when he said the new judge
would ban next to nothing to do.
Mr. BOLT—I said, from whomsoever that opinion might
come. (Hear.)
Mr. MA LIMB ezpremed his satisfaction that he could sup-
port the emend reading of the present bill, which Ifee in con-
formity with the views he kadeapremed for the last four years.
He felt much gratification in being able to support this bill ;
but it should be understood that he did not mean to pin
himself to all the details, as there were amoral to which he
objected. He had always agreed is the necessity of doing
away with the numerous jurisdictions, and mooring the
whole matter from the control of the ecclosiastical courts,
and wtsfiliehist • Queen's court of probate. One evil
in the present system was the rule.. to bon nnabdis,which
required a will to be proved in every province where the
testator had property. As be gare a general 'appal to the
bill he wouldsat them enter into his objections to the details,
but he wee strongly opposed to the clans which
gave the appeal to the House of Lords intent
of to the Privy Council. The bill was one which
called on many persons to make great sacrifices, and destroyed
greet interests. He bad heard with much pleasure the de-
claration of the Attorney-General with regard to the proctor.
of the Prerogative Court of York, fur if the bill had abolished
their offices without compensation it would have coinniitted
a gross injustice. As soon, however, as the case was stated
to the boo and learned gentleman, he at once conceded their
claim, and that of the proctors of the Prerogative Court of
Cheater, but add he could not concede that of the proctors in
London, on the ground that they had DO aliel 01 compensa-
tion when • mere improvement we. effected. The principle
was the mete In both cams, as the proctors of York were
not:gale than the victims of an improved poetise.
PALMERSTON—They are to be swept of the
face of the land.

lIALINS—If the noble lord edmittsltheminciple, he
would refuse recermatits to those seven-eightha who were
to be swept ME The proctors of London were about 120 in
number; theybod were'entlemen of great respectability, and
member. of • ywhich bad enjoyed its prtvile,tex for over
sin centuries ; they had acquired their profession ate great
expense, and laid out their plans for life, and it worth! be a
Bros. injustice to annihilate 120 families and throw them en
the world. It. was sure the home would admit their claim
if it could be proved that the bill, while preserving their
privilege. in Dome, did, In reality, destroy them. The princi-
ple of compeneatiiio was conceded in the case of York, and the
matter resolved Reel( Into a question of fart. They were
told that the bill preserved the eortosin form business,
' sad maths' formed the bulk of their practice they bad no
claim to compewration. If (be proctors proved meth,
faraway that their business would be annihilated—if the
public tatneet demanded its abolition, public justice required
est they should be compered. As far as he maid ea
certain the state of the public mind, it was admitted they
were entitled to compensation, if the fact was proved ; and
he warned the noble lord that he would yet meet with diffi-
culties in passing the bill if be did not concede a principle
which the house and country were satisfied was founded in
judoes. The number of wills proved and administrations
granted in England was 23,000; of them not morn than •
hundred were conteeted, so that it would appear the non-
contentims boainess produced the greater portion of their
jr itit. The bill, however. proposed, that in all were the
property did not meted 1,5001., the will should be proved in
the district court, and thereby at once took away 7-8( lia of their
entire busioem. In committee he would go into statements
which would place this matter beyond doubt. In the torture
bill the Attorney-General had proposed to allow them as
compensation the amount of half their renelpte, calculated on
en average of the lam flee years. It would be proposal in
committee to adopt that saga and to charge the compensa-
tion, as in the form, bill, on the mitre.' lee fund. It would
thus be no burden on the public.
Mr. WESTHEAD wed the clams of the proctors of
York to compemation. It would have been. monstrous in-
justice so throw these over,as their ere was very different
bola that of the London roctors, end the system at York
wee unique. It wee constituted in 1311, and from that time
be the t the number of proctors attached to the court
was Daly 8 ; each proctor was snowed one clerk, who eoe•
seeded as vacancies occurred. He objected to the division of
the county of York into four dratricts, ea proposed by the bill;
if it was corried into effect, in ease of a death near York the
will would be Pent to Hull or Richmond to be proved.
Sir E. PERRY admitted that the time was come when all
parties who were interested in this question should sink
minordifferenore; for himself he would not dwell on hie strong
objection that sufficient attention was not paid to local in.
ferrate. Ihe hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Matins) had
aimed his objections to the multiplicity of jurisdictions, but
the real objection was to the conflicting jurisdiction; nothing
could be better than to have local courts in every district to
grant proteges; he feared the bill would rather increase
the estpare to weans living in the counter.
He would have bean glad to see in the ball
• provides to give jurisdiction, contentious or non-
contagious, to the county courts in all came, no matter
what the amount, when the parties speed to ma nn It to that
court. The hie pregumail* appoint • etweler et district re-
=. He wield pair dot they Wile et come attached
county MAW& He had, however, rhea prtheipilly to
=peen his optima ea the principle ef empereitoe to the
polars whith bed bees se timeagly tart It was rather
era mirasious Irk lo mesh a dale, but he felt it hi.
duty le Niel la rids lord let Milan to theme demands.
MAWR Ihe eseeperellee wee ehtesed as the tee fund or
net, it met sere Dem the petiole et the yobbo. On a for-
mer sammisa lie melees
If n= dr wolves wane to
ass* the MI they we retain the common
Men by lea
by het the t bill gave it to them
ler ever. They Imo by all gorlanee of the present ameion
Ilea the adds laid wean etheiesty powerful, and could carry
asyllitellie be ehseeishrivi also knew the house wee
vayeseaswied, mil the noble lord would not
listen teas chins aried ea him, hat adhere to the principle
he had already adopted, awl awry the bill ex it now stied.
Mr. HUDSON owl the deb= of the proctor. of York
to the consideration Min boos, sad elprared a tope that
the city of York woutine mule the centre of one of the new
districts to be created under the act.

FIUTIATICITOR-43E,YETAIOringratulated the home
sad the coantry on the prospect of at length piing this
bill. (Hem.) From the time he had Prat commeneed the
pink" of his pavilion this subject id timid the
allention of all lowa reformers, and ewe he had a
art In the hoar various bills had been introduced.
' All were weed es the necessity of reform, it
while they was statinding ae to the proper mode
of destroying the Whig .thrirdithth, that jurisdiction con-
tinued; and Wen sem wahaewn as Ibis wee introduced,
which reads a strew appeal be them to forget minor differ-
' ices, Doctors' Cs wadi &orbit for many peen.
Til• hon. =mbar he rpm& mild not deny that this bill
vwald pt rid el the sae eingilebed of, but contender! it
mild net de me In the best menissr, and referred to the
gems pespened by him of tmotherhur the jurisdiction to
the essemen My exerts. He (the Soncitor-l•eneral) would
if muse he glad If such • memare omM be carried,
had he mot Pemba his hem Mead that the objections
mielminell le dui mane were se strong That the bill
W never be. upend r Nees Is a meet reeding.
gaged te lid thetAlespreurnment imMuded b give MI
ee damp Wel h*m& He Wnet the hest hesita-
tion In giving W nnipasElsd rent to the bill, looking at it
as • putiffWmmense essilmeaky pitting rid of existing evils
En • meet sillegnsl my. WO aimed to the Umber of
the canal, he mad not hip ti lekkg dist when it had to
attend le the 'semen stem beises. =Wigs suil
and the lesesehr of the=r4.=.l.....ii-=
be hey secupled. He ing the house
ea the of getting eid ds thiespesed grierance, end
• hope that In the semi eta mry short time the
mossere would beams the law ef the W. (Cheers)
Mr. HEADLAM tee glad M Sri We wee a prospect of
II beleitelidE Imam le a decMry settle
aimed elm et those We IS Wet other app..
whet& thwese ism verbed. Weer the peat-
teet lelhenermmenees had henget rid sC the ses
▪ Nthesiggesthethesthe sal threther Shed Win digs
vethillig it this lets tho Court efltheacery. Wish respect le
the ere at the praetors, he thought the madame( York Meta
la a dense guidon from those se the stolen et Lea"
awl flat their ewe woe doorstep of further emmidessiles.
Mr. CAI RNS rejoiced in the prospect of the prig el
• MISR= which had already remised the se m* der
hod of the legislature, sod he believed that the seems
INS sieribuethle to the 'fact tint It did set ge tee ler, but
aeseesmodeled IMtif to the exigent., siniemee, end steered
clew of the elgesims entertain. be termer pepositioas.
Andsltu end vas not the time le arm the
detail of die thews, the loth, Ile ping*
and detail. were se fine that he thought It nememary to
throw out some suggestion for the essitheethe et the
Attorney. General In Its future wpm He did net agree

with the idea entertained
.by the hon. and Imensd member
for Plymouth that the judge at the bend of the Court of
Probate would ham very little to do. The sew judge might
to lame all the dignity of • judge of the ingrates teazle, sad
to ham ralant bummer provided for him, mud he
did not think dine would be much difficulty in that respect.
Oes point to which he would call the attention of the At-
toniey-Gensval was that of contentions litigation. The bill
provided that in every cam in which the hew at law deputed
• will the 'natter was to be withdrawn from the judge of
and sent as an iasoe into the court. of common
Crif.l.Ho wanted to know by the decisive of the
jury should net be obtained undewr the judge of probate.
One of the greatest evils at the pnetrit time waa the handing
of • taw from one court to souther, and that might le
avoided in the use of the new court, the judge of which
would be peculiarly fitted to direct a jury to ouch matters.
With regard to appeals from the dociaion In the ewe of villa,
wider the bill the appeal wu to be, net to the Judicial Com-
mittee of Privy Council, hot to be sent to the Judicial
Cwu-
mittee, and by that court to be referred to the Houma Lords.
Daring the last parliament a diacowien took place respecting
the appellate junadiction of the Hume of Lords, and be was
not aware Gait anything had been done substantially to
remedy the errors then complained of. Whet "ratted, then,
could exist for transferring the appellate jurindietion in this
use to that tribunal, trout another which had hitherto given
ratiefaction p Then, again, the contention. boainees VW to
be decided in mall meow by the county courts, but the bill
contained this singular provision, that the appeal was
to be to the courts of common law—thus multiplying petty
tnbunals, and giving riot to difference, of derision when
there ought be an appeal to the Court of Probate.
lie thought a serious (mention would sriao upon that part of
the bill which related to country districts. propoaition
woo to creme 41 country districts fur the proof and revers-
eon of with where the property wee under 1,500 f. It would,
therefore, be necessary to provide 41 buildings and en
efficient staff for each, and he coufemod he did not think the
end would be commensurate with the expense. It would be
most desirable to furniah the house ;with en eatimete of the
cost of them buildings, and the staff neeeesary fur the proper
custody of the deed, The bill pn,vided that any person
making en affidevit that the demeoed had snlly raided in
a particular district, proof should take piece and the sfilderit
be conclusive. Now, supposing • penal wanted to ledge
caveat again** the proof o • will, how would be be able to
do it ? The person who obtained probate on such affidavit
might at once proceed to London and transfer any stock
which stood in the name of the deceased. If the caveat was
to be entered at the central court and mut tab the
district, sloe method ought to be devised by which
the country court would be apprised of Um entry
of that caveat. lle would submit to the Attersey-
Gmeral whether it would not bs better to bring up the
original with to the central ollite, and preserve copies in tlie
districts, than to have the original documents armttered
over 41 buildings throughout the country. The question of
empeneation was one of extreme difficulty • and the ques-
tion ought to be kept open for more full and ample discus-
sion. The Attorney-General, who conaidered the principle
compensation altogether vicious, sold that it was absurd to
talk of It when there would be nothing Lut en alteration in
the practice and rules. The hon. and learned gentleman
must have greatly !bonged his opinion on that point, for his
name was appended to the report of the commission, which
stated that in the opinion of the 1•013110.1AtiODBIS it would be
necessary, in common justice to the proctor", that compeesa-
altould be made to them if their businem woo thrown
open. The report did not contemplate the abolition of the
business of proctors, but the throwing open of the business
others which this bill was about tn du . . .

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL slid he prepared to sin
the prortore whet by their evidence before the monniimioners
they mid would be sullVient —the common form business.
Kr. CAIRNS submitted that the questim required further
eosideration. The proctors said that if the 001111111A1 form
business wee left untouched cud unaltered they would be
mutant to site up the contentious busbies.; but this hill
dwml7;to take away from the central court the comma
j oineis with regard to it albite+ under the value of
1,5001. Thu question then aeon whether there was not •
ear for compensation. Here were a number of gent lemon—
about one hundred—who had paid enormous sums for their

latillamme, which now la • peat omeseero would be de-
aler/Id; sled the matter was AM more compbosted when
the twee rif the York proctors wee taken into consideration.
(Rear, hear.) In conclusion ho would wain urge on the
government the pro piety of reconsidering the points to
whkh he had directed their attention. (ltow.)
Mr. AYItTt)N wialied to call the attention of the govern-
ment to the difficulty which would be experienced in dealing
with the hill in committee. The bill proposed to abohah •
certain awake of offices and to create others, sad
eamparstlas wee to be given with respect to some
came, bat metadag was said with regard to others.
Me thought the government ought to place on the table a
ellnieseent of the public monies that would be dealt with by
CM. mom*, en estimate of the expenditore, whether arieing
Brent the auntkes of new office. or compensation for the
to be abolliiaa, sad ohs, • statement of the amount which
the proctors would be likely to lose. Re objected to the
principle eloempowestion, but it had been so long acted
upon thee It would be wrong to rake the general questimi I.
the pram& insleata When he looked at the clause which had
hews laawlai far the benefit of Lord Centerbary he thought
it wield he a pod senadal if industrious individual. should
be deprived of their Lamm without imopeneation, when a
asehinan, who had only the exportation of OS" end who
hod weer done anything, was to receive en annuity AV ilk
equal to the emoluments of that riflke. (Hear, hear.) The
government ought to piece on the table the information for
which be had asked with erred to them pecuniary chimes,
in order to guard againstinjustice heir done. (Hear.)
Mr. NAI'IER tendered hie thank', to the Attumey
General for having introduced this moot valuable bill to th;
house. It was not to be summed that they *mid carry the
bill exactly as it was proposed. There must be • great deal
of compromise. Ho differed entirely from the hon. gentlemen
who had just eat down that the principle of compensation
was an attest one. On the canonry, he thought it just, bat
it ilepearbid on the particular ran. His own feeling was,
Wet the praetors had a claim for compensation. Seeing that
the bill been brought on in a friendly spirit, he thought they
should d endeavour to make it as perfect a bill ea they
Gould. It was the best bill they were likely to get.
Color' STK RS should vote for the necond reeding of the
bill, Ia fell espeetatiou that compensation would be given to
the parties who were deprived of their emoluments by the

Mr. W. H. ADAMS hoped the Attorney 'General would
reconsider the question of milaponeat ion. He suggested whe-
ther it was nocemary to confine the limit to 1,5001. in the
country. With regard to many robotes the amount was not
material, and where there was no difficulty, an option should
be given either to take it out in the country or to have re-
CUIIIIIO to the court in London. In committee he should he
disposed to take the senile of the house es to the Admiralty
junsdiction being transferred to the new court, which he
thought ought to be reeled in • court of common law.
Mr. WALPOLE agreed in the pentacle of the bill, end
considered it the hem adjustment of a dile= question. It.
thought, however, the court should have power to determine
every question connected with teetamentaryjurisdiction, and
that to prevent varieties of rules and decisions in the district
courts there should be one court of appeal.
The bill was then read a second time.
FRAUDULENT TRUSTEES, &c., BILL.
The home went into committee on this bill.
On clause
Mr. WALPOLE moved to leers out "property," end
insert " mate or intermit in land of any tenure, or of any
share or interest in any public stock or fund, whether of this
kingdom, or of Great Britain or of Ireland, or of any foreign
state, or in any stock or fund of any body corrate, com-
pany, or society, or of any security for money whatsoever, or
of any Huila." The clause as it stood would have •
tendency to prevent perilous of character and position
from accepting the (Ace of trustee, and the ob-
ject of the amendment, with soother which he
intended to propose, war to diminish that tendency.
The hon. and learned gentleman drew a distinction between
the cam of a trustee who applied "money" to his own nee,
and one who sold out stock or any other property which was
in the nature of a chattel. In the former case a men was
only criminally insolvent, and could be dealt with by the
bankruptcy and insolvency lawn, while in the latter his
offence, partook of the nature of larceny; and Its contended
that the punishment provided by the bill ought not to be ex-
tended indifferently to both chimes of offence. Then the
evidence to prove intent to defraud would be very
difficult to obtain. There might be eircumetroee is
which • person powering trust money might, from
want of knowledge, commit • breech of true, end if
he innocently stopped payment be would be liable under this
bill. The trustee who had money in his hands and did not
pay it was not more than criminally insolvent, and differed
froin a man who dealt fraudulently with stock. If the
amendment wan agreed to it would be possible to strike at
Mom mom of offences of the highest elms, while it would
exempt three who, though criminal, were yet criminal in a
sena° different to the other. In legislating on this subject it
was well to muskier that, though leglaation could do much,
it could not do ell, end the public must be taught that the
great= safeguard in these matte= worn implicit of trust
and the trustworthiness of those who execute duties, the
essence of which was confidence. It wee a question whether
the clause, as he proposed to amend it, would not and its pro-
per place in a bill for the relief of truster; but he shoal*
content himself with moving hie amendment.
The ATTORNEY-OENERAL said that la the garret
tendency of the observations of his hon. and learned friend he
concurred, but with regard to the immediate past, which woo
the substitution of words, of particular words kw =
words of demonstration, which would include e
fir of properly, he could not concur. Suppose net a ale
had collected 6001., end having 600 sovereigns, Issvee
a man his executor, end the executor takes the
400 sovereign; sad appbes them to his own use, and robs
the widow sad alb= al the testator, was he not en M-
ashie= trustee, sad was he to be exempted from the opera-
tion of this bill beams he land not got the money by the sale
of AN& ? Aga%a man died, and directed hie trustee to sell
hia=, sot in his debts, to invest the proceeds and
mom his children, and the trustee having
tuna the pepwly into money, and then converted it to his
VIM 1111111, wee be to be exempted from the operation of the
hilly How importile wee it to say that if • truetee took
money only he incurred • debt, end that • truer who took
stock, or say other security, end turned it into
money, end used it for his own purpose; committed
a crime. If you left eat the word " money," the most
painful instances of fraudulent robbery would escape punish-
ment, for be hoped that the bill would reach numerous cues
in which smell same pried into the bands of fraudulent
trustees, end were used by them. He objected, therefore, to
the eannteration of the nature and kinds of property, for
the fraudulent trustee would be liable under the bill, sad

he (the Atteney-General) would robin the genera
word. property. Ile desired not to interfere with the
me mi.. of tritons sad metal quo dust, but here there was
walling to frighten the most nervone man ; for no one could
by potability come within the mope of the Lill mikes he
wilfully appuipristed to his own are the property of a panua
which he wee bound to protect. He hoped the committee
would not agree to this amendment, Mama it would deprive
the bill of Its mama security.
Mr. HEADLAM said that in opcsking of the policy of
late:awing these word, ho must my that in eonsidering the
ilium he had nun to • coo, lmion with regard to it contrery
to that to which the committee and the public would probably
cone, and that was that the whole clause sad the extension
of the it MMus! law which it curd, would be prodective
of indnitely more mischief than good. There were many
cases in which j oat punishment might be inflicted, but when
it wits considered how lane a number of pert one would ho
doterred from becoming trustees, be thought that any one
would come to the conclusion that this euactment would do
more harm than good. There might be caws in which • per-
fectly hornet trustee or guardian might Innocently get into
such a position an to throw on him at least the onus of proof
that he wee not liable to &criminal charge and to a of
seven yeses' penal servitude. What effect wouldp not this
have on other permit& who became aware of it Y Would they
not decline to undertake trusteeship when the Diet of their being
unable to deal with • complicated trust would throw
this responsibility and danger upon theca P He believed the
number of cams which would come into court under this bill
would be exceedingly 'man, for in tont ern the offending
trustee was a relauve whom the family would be unwilling to
indict.

Re;jetuat K IRO LAKE was not mitiefied with the proposal
to leave the question of intent to defraud to a jury. Cases
hod been put on the ono side, but let him now put
a cue. Suppose • man died leaving two or three
hundred pounds, and appointing hie brother the trudge
of his widow and family. The brother might
put the money into his own business, honestly
intending to allow the widow 8 or 10 per cent.—more, in
feet, than he could invest the money for in any other way,
But suppose the man's business failed, and the mosey was
lost ; euppose a cue like that piing to a jury, and an appeal
being made to their feelinga on tine one side or on the other,
I week passible to imagine anything more unaatisfactory P It
was agreed that it would be muds to allow prosecutions to
be instituted at the mere motion of any disappointed party ;
and so elaoss I I provided that the consent of one of the
judges most be obtained previous to the commencement of
proceed raga Bet that clause afforded no adequate Inoue-
don ; for how could a judge come to • correct decision
upon name en parte affidavits P Beside., it was wrong
to put the judges in so invidious • position as to call
on them to decide in London that there was • prima fade
we of fraud, when it might happen that the very mine
judge that authorised the institution of proceedings might
have to go down to try the charge. He (the learned ser-
*int) had reason to know that this we an objection which
was felt by many of the judges themselves. Under thew eh-
minuances he begged to call the attention of the govern-
ment to an amendment, suggested by Mr. Carne which would
entirely remove this difficulty. Let the proreLdings be in-
stituted only by the direction of • judge either in equity or
in hankruptcy,under whose judicial notice:the case might have
come. (Hew, hear.)
Mr. BARROW Weed in the apprehensions which had
been expressed lest this bill should deter persons from
ac-
mpting the offire of trustee—a result which would do far
more injury to widows and orphans than any piece of legisla-
tion which he remembered to bare seen. The bill not only
involved the responsibility of the trustee himself, who might
be able to avoid all irregularity, but it would actually in-
volve his exteutor. (Hear, hear.) The mere threat of a
prosecution would deter many an honest man from consenting
to became a trustee ; for, he agreed with the last speaker,
that • person would run but a poor chance of • favourable
constructionbeing put upon his received, if he happened to
be opposed by so eloquent an decade of the widow and
as the Attorney-General. (Hear, bear.)
r. NAPIER said it would have been more straightfor-
ward to have rejected the bill tin the woad reading ; for the
speeehee they had just heard west against its oinnciple, sad
not against any of eta details. (Hear, hear.) He could not
concur in the objeetione that were taken to juice being made
the judge. of the fraudulent intention; fie juries habitually
decided on questions of intent, where that intent
formed the very essence of a capital charge. (Hear, hear.)
The question visa, whether the word property in the chew
should be used in its wide and extensive sense, or limited as
his hon. and learned friend proposed P He thought the words
„with intent to defraud" were sufficient to carry out the
principle that woe the foundation of the criminal law —V{Z.,
the latent ;" and the object being to apply that principk to
a class of cares to which it did not now attend, he should
gurtAt.teltrOP.Nriitftgiested that words ought to he Intro-
timed to prevent men rem being convicted for what a crater
of equity might deride to be fraud, but only upon fraud being
proved to the eatidaction of • jury.
Sir 0. OREY obaerwed that thin clause did not refer to
the point referred to by the hoe. member for the Tower
Hamlets.
Mr. W (ORA M observed that the clause' as originally
framed, was confined to the appropriation for rho use of the
appropriator of money that did not belong to hint; rind if
that was the intention, it would matter little how wide the
clause extended, but if it went further than that, and
punished if the money was appropriated fur the benefit of
others, he deriving no advantage, he doubted whether the
proposed law would carry puffin. opinion along with it.
he ArIORNEY-OENERAL replied that If a trustee
innate-rod stock, of which he Was the trustee, to his eon, it
would not be an appropriation to his own me, but It would
nevertheless be a fraud which ought not to go unpunished.
After a few weeds horn Mr. CAIRNS,
Mr. 8. WARREN thought the words" with intent to de-
frsod" met every objection. He oupported the awe.
Mr. HOLT teplied. What he contended wee that
they should not confound criminal Owl vency with larceny.
A division was called; but after woe hesitation, Mr.
ROLT permitted the amendment to be negatived without
pulsing the committee to divide.
Mr. BLAKE, with the view, as he said, of making the
clause more useful to Ireland, where unfortunately fraud,
in the case of charities, was not unfrequent, moved to insert
the weld "or for any public or charitable purpose."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL consented to introduce
words to carry out the object of the hon. gentleman.
The amendment wee agreed to, ss were the other emend-
meta suggested by the Attorney-General after a protest
from Mr. Barrow, founded on an individual case which had
come under his notice, and in which he conceived the provi-
fiol2l4 of the bill would have indicted hardship. To this ft
wee replied by the Attorney-General that they were not
legialating for individual oases.
On the question that the claw should eland part of the bill,
Mr. WALPOLE referred to the case of person, baamtng•
trustees oonstructively, and not by direct appointment, and
suggested the introduction of words in the interpretation
clause exempting such persons from the operation of the bill.
Mr. NEAT E said the bill wee an extension of the criminal
law which did not meet the approval of the legal profession
ly. He understood the judged were opposed to it ; and
rweer:ipr?posed by a gentleman who had been chiefly con-
cerned with civil law. The great objection to the bill wes,
that it did not recognise the difference between truie
of a public character and those of a private charsctottre.le
approved of it. application to the former. In the came of a
bank or a railway company, confidence was placed in the
directors, not from any knowlege of the private character of
individuals., as efts the ow in private trusteeehips ; there-
fore in the former case it wea necomary that the law should
interpose to protect the public Nor did the bill sufficiently
recognise the distinctive between direct fiduciary transfers of
property, end indirect sad residting transfers. He did sot
deny the necessity of legislation, but thought it would be suffi-
cient to give equity judges the same juriediction over default-
!sal:ldea as the insolvent commissioners had over insolvent
As regarded fraudulent treaders of stock, he
thought it would be wise to compel the Bank of England to
take notice of trusteeship, by entering such stock in a imp-
ede book, and allowing no sale without the concurrence of
all the trustees. He would suggest to the Attorney-General
that it would be better to confine the bill to pubhc trustee-
shill; clause was then agreed Is.
On dame 2,
Mr. HENLEY mid, If • man deposited 1,0001. in a bank,
the banker would be at liberty to deal with it se he thought
proper what, then, constituted the precise set of fraud P
Su the account went on from year year, and at the
end of ten years the beak broke, in that interval the banker
must have applied the money over and over again to his own
us. What, thee, oonstitated the precise fraud P
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said if he lent money to
• banker only on the condition that it should be repaid when
it was requited, there wan no fraud even if the banker was
sot able to do so. If the money were deposited on the under-
standing that it should be applied iitiadarticular way, sad
this we. not done, that was • cane of .
boom. Mr. HENLEY repeated Ids question as towhee th•fraud
Mr. WARREN said the eaenee of the offence was defined
by the words " with intent to defend."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said if he took 1,000
aoureigne b • bank misled up In • bag, and geld, "
keep that for me as it is," and the banker mitten7=
took out the money, that we • hand. The principle was
well understood in the City, where • petal of • was fie-
quently paid into • bank as deposition, se it was celled; but
• angle bill paid in without any oonditica was su= •
different treatment, and might be negotiated by the
Is answer to a further question from Mr. Restot
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL mid the hill would not
interfere with any of the ordinary transactions of trade, nor
with anything wrongfully done Weis it were with Indus
animus. It would only apply to cues whore them we a deer
Intention to defraud. (lieu.)
Mr. AY ItTON wished to know how this bill would affect
the old enactment of Geo. IV. relating to money entrusted
to bankers with written instructions. It would be exceed-
ingly inconvenient to pass • new act, without reference to the
one already in existence. The language of this clause was
too large, and ho should certainly prefer the more precise
and careful wording of the Bankers Act.
Mr. NAPIER remarked that the case put by his right
hon. Mend the member for Oxfordshire came within the law
of debtor and creditor, end the money so deposited ceased to
be the property of the depositor. The tranaution contem-
plated by the muss was one between bailor and a bailee.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said no comparison could
be made between this clause and that of the Baker Act,
bemuse the latter wan confined entirely to cases where the
directions were given in writing, or to caw where the
property had been specially entrusted. This bill, however,
was much more general and amprr benaive than the 7th and
ilth Geo. IV., and it wan intended to include a large clam of

ellsweeetelt bad bare held not to tame within the meaning
of tbe Bankers AM, by roman of its spacial and particular
lemmas*. A great variety of eases occurred where it was
absolutely itiopiesible to comply with the special requisiteaof
the existing law.
Mr. HEN LRY oboe wt that they were deMing with an
exceptional con, but the clime was general, and be was
afraid it would lake effect in the use of money paid into a
banker's band. Acme the °punter.

Mr. NA PI MK repeated that the moment tnor.r7 pawed in
that way it ceased to be the property of the depositor.
Mr. XIALI NS maid the thwitsclion between the tea, cases
was obvious rwiugh. If 1,0001. were deposited, the pro-
perty pared to tho beaker, but the depwit of 1,0001.
worth of Exchequer bill. would be a different cede. That
weak' tome within the moaning of this clause but the first
would not.

CAIRNS &intended that tide wu too serious a ques-
tion to be left where it wan. Allowing that a 1,0001. deposit
became a debt there would ho then the difficulty of the in-
terpretation clues which said the word "property„ should
mean "debt.'

After a few worth from Mr. GURNEY and Mr. GRIFFITH.
Mr. J. 0 FITZGERALD rid, in reply to Mr. Client,
that it wan impossible for a debtor to Coos set a debt.
Mr. WALIVLE put this care—Suppose he paid 1,0004 to
a banker acmes the counter, and the banker knew be ohould
fail the next day ; suppufte the banker appropriated the
1,0001. the next day, would that come within the meaning of
the clause!

The ATTORNET•OENERAL thought it would not;
there the ammo would nut he a fraudulent breach of trout,
but a concenbeent of insolvency.
After amen further conversation,
The elause as amended was .card to.
The chairman wes then ordered to report progress, sad the
house resumed.

SITES FOR WORKHOUSES BILL

This bilip;;;:difubii
CROWN, itr., SUITS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This Mil was read a second time.
The Brinkruptey and Real Securities (Scotland) Bill and
the Bill Chamber (Scotland) Bill was also read a second
time.

CHRISTCHURCH (WEST HARTLEPOOL) BILL.
This bill was reed • served time.
HANLEY BOROUGH INCORPORATION BILL.
This bill was reed • third time arid wised.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (8000,0000 BILL.
This bill was read • third time and passed.
SUPPLY. . . . _

The report of the committee of supply tree brought up
V.VlagrgiCt UPON OATH (HOUSE OP COMMONS)
BILL.

Mr. WARREN moveddomi the order for the mond
reading be discharged. He would not tako PO important •
bill at such a late hour, and as he was obliged leave town he
would not have another opportunity thin session. He
would re-introduce it at the earliest possible period next

The order nu then dienharfed.
ELECT lON PI; II T IONSIOILL:2
On the order of the day for the second reading,
The ATTORNEY-OkNERAL objected to proceeding at
so late an hour.

Mr. ADDERLEY expressed his astonishment and regret
at the opposition of the hon. and learned gentleman. (Hear,
hear.) The bill had been originally drawn by Mr.
Riclaudit, and approved of by Lord Eversley. (Rear, hear.)
Let the bon. and learned gentleman state the objections in
the open day. It was Mr. Coppock who 'resat the bottom of
the opposition. (Hear, hear.) A set of pettifogging attorneys
got up a lot of diagraceful petitions containing slanders that
they dare not utter against any other person than a
member of that hones. There might be some difference em
to the details of the bill, but there ought not to be any as to
the principle; it did not attempt to check the right of
petition, but merely sought to put an end to a scandal.
Sir 0. Olt EY said the bill was a most important one, yet
the hon. gentleman Raked them to adopt the principle at such
an hour without a word of explanation.
Mr. ADDERLEY said the principle of it was in secure
the boss tides of election petitions,, next year the grievance
would have passed away, and it would be difficult to get the
bowie to take the matter up.
The ATTOItNEY-OENEItAL wee not opposed to the
object the bill desired to attain, but he WWI opposed to the
very silty machinery by which that object wee proposed to be
accomplished. The providous of the bill could be to easily
evaded that they would become a mere laughing stock. The
hon. gentleman had given no explanation of the details of
the bill, and the best thing be could do for him would be to
move that the debate should be adjourned.
Mr. SPOONER. thought, raiimidering the high authority
which had approved of the bill, it could scarcely deserve the
epithet of silly.
Sir O. GREY odd that the object of the bill was a very
good one, but the principle was such al, he thought they
ought not to accept without some explanation. The machinery
appeared to be the administration of a number of oaths.
After some further conversation,
The second reading was postponed to Monday neat.
PROBATES ANDLETTEAIS OF ADMINISTRATION

(IRELAND) BILL.~••••~•
On the motion of the Arrowcr.r-Gescaac. for IRELAND,
' leave wan given to bring in a bill to emend the law relating
to probates and letters of administistion In Ireland.
GLEBE LANDS (IRELAND).
On the motion of the AT ORNEY-Ci EN ERAL for ItieLAND,
leave was given to bring in a hill to enaLlo ecclegastical per-
roma In Ireland to grant building leases of glebe lands in
certain eases.

I EAST QUAY WALL TAX (DUBLIN").
Mr. H. A. H►.asenr obtained leave to bring ins bill to
abolish the rate known as the Ernst Quay Wall tax, in the
city of Dublin, and make other provision in lieu thereof.
The house then adjourned at a quarter past one.