The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-05-15 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL.

The adjourned quarterly meeting of the Council was held
at eleven o'clock yesterday, in the Town Hall, the Mayor, John
Stewart, Esq., in the chair.
Before the ordinary business of the Council was entered
on,

Mr. Robertson Gladstone rose to a point of order. He was
prepared to contend that the notice on the summons paper
having reference to the sale of the site of the Old Borough Gaol
to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company, was informal,
and that they could not now proceed to discuss that subject. He
based his objection on the 69th clause of the Municipal Reform
Act, which declared that the various subjects to be discussed
at the
meetings of the Council should be clearly set forth on
the summons, He contended that the wording of the summons
in this instance was not in conformity with that clause. They
here recommended to sell the land, but the price and terms to
be obtained were not stated. He did not know whether that
iunportant information was left out by order of the finance
cototnittee, or through the omission of the deputy town clerk
Hughes), but probably they would receive some informa-
t'n en the point. (Hear, hen.) If the finance committee
thought proper to say that the Council, being a quarterly one,
the notice was sufficient, he would say that perhaps they had
the law on their side in that respect—(hear, hear,)—but be
could not conceive for a moment that where so large a slice of
ittla corporate property was about to be disposed of—something
ike in point of value to one-eightieth of the real estate of the
Corporation—the finance committee would justify the omission
'',ll such a ground. Besides, immediately in connection with
this recommendation was another recommendation for the
Purchase of premises in Dale-street. In the latter the price
hes given, and why then was it omitted in the other ? (Hear,
al%) There was evidently something wrong in the matter
and hf. +l ^

therefore contended that as the notice was contrary
to the clause of the Municipal Reform Act, and to their own
Btondieg order, the subject to which it bad reference cotild not
new be discussed. (Hear, hear.)
The Town Clerk gave it as his opinion, that even if it were
a monthly council the notice would be sufficient. It was,
however, a quarterly meeting, and on such occasions it
vas not required that the subjects to be discussed should
be specified. Besides, by a standing order of the council,
ch of the committees were open for the insp-ee-
,very 'member of the council, three clear days before
, and if the notice in the summons were not con-
-Bidered explicit enough, the full proceedings of the committee
-q referred to,

the books bf ea,
Con of
the meeting,

'cir• Hornby said, that if Mr. Gladsone, in bringing the
'question of order before the council, had confined himself to
the simple point—whether or not they would he in order in
continuing the discussion on the subject—he (Mr. Hereby)
would not have thought it necessary to say one word in the
Natter, and would have been content with the answer of the
town clerk, which, to his mind, was most satisfactory. But
r• Gladstone had insinuated that the finance committee had
*awn up the notice in the way in which it appeared in the
council summons, for the purpose of withholding from the
council the information which they ought to receive. Now, he
begged to tell Mr. Gladstone, and the members of the council
gnerally, that the finance committee had pursued the same
aulre.ette,in this instance as in all other cases, and that the coin-
as a body, ITOT any member of it, had given any -.structions to the deputy town clerk, as to the manner in
the
the notice should be inserted. (Hear, hear.) Whether
..„`" notice was sufficiently full or not, lie was not going to
"i_blenss ; but he did mean to say that the finance committee
"44 nothing to do with it, and that the insinuation which Mr.
`Gladstone appeared anxious to convey, that the finance corn-
Nittee had some covert intention of deceiving the council, was
'unjust and unfounded. (Hear, hear.) He, for one, was
quite ready to admit that the proposed sale was a very fair
subject for the members of the council to discuss, and that
the remarks of Mr. William Earle, and some other gentlemen,
'were well deserving of attention. Mr. Earle possessed large
Property in the neighbourhood, and naturally entertained a
gh opinion of its value. Ho could well believe that many
gentlemen, both in that room and out of doors, enter-
tritted that opinion, but what he did object to in the discussion,
'was the manner in which some gentlemen, who objected
to the sale, addressed the council. He should observe, that if
htnarks in such a strain were continued to be made in the
coaneil, they would detract very much not only from the cha-
c etet. of the council, but from its usefulness to the town.
(11ear, hear.) Did Mr. Gladstone, and the other gentlemen
a'Aio made those remarks, imagine that they did not carry a
feeling of great irritation into the minds of those persons
against whom the remarks were directed ? If such a line of
argument was persevered in, he would ask was it possible that
they could conduct the proceedings of the council, he would
not say with pleasure and satisfaction to themselves as gentle-
Men—but could they conduct their proceedings with benefit to
the public themselves, if their motives were criticised in such a
(15ear, hear.) So far as the finance committee were
Concerned, they were anxious that their proceedings should
always be strictly examined ; and that in the disposal of large
Property, the council should be satisfied in every particular
respecting it before they sanctioned such sale. ([sear, hear.)
the instance now before them, if any course could be
adopted which would meet the wishes of the council, and at
e same time the wishes of the burgesses out of doors, he
'Vas sure the finance committee would be most happy to adopt
it. (Hear, hear.)

THE DAY RE
The Mayor said he had been waitedOlClN
uponG. by a deputation of
gentlemen, who desired to know whether it was intended to
M're any public demonstration in Liverpool on the 29th of
yt The gentlemen were desirous that that day should be
"apart as a holiday; and among other reasons which they
as .apart
was, that on that day the custom-house would be closed,
and the discharge of ships, and the work on the quay, gene-
11Y, would be suspended. The deputation consisted of Mr.
iv R. Jeffery, Mr. Rad!ey, Mr. Formby, Mr. Dismore, and
r. P
lastinc, The opinion of the deputation was, that some-
"ing should be done in Liverpool on the 29th of May, being
daY set apart throughout the kingdom for some kind of public
en,onstration. In connection with that subject he should
hte, that he bad that morning received a letter from
k Lord Mayor of London, in which his lordship desired to
°ll' what was intended to he done here, and
re
an immediate answer. He, therefore, thought it
thity to bring the matter before the Council. He should
"i 1 4Y that the deputation themselves deprecated anything like an
kill the
or fireworks, or any expensive demonstration of
ir,at,Sort- (Hear, hear.) It was suggested that the military
tne town, consisting of the pensioners and the Lancashire
lartillery, should make some display, and he had every reason
0 believe that the officers in command would lend all the aid
tli•rrpower. The deputation proposed to enter into a sub-
""r'Ptinn, but ho feared that. project would not be very
teceessful.
h Mr.i R. Gladstone thought if any funds were raised they
ilzl be applied to some practical ohket of sustantial good,
"eh as the relief of some of the widows and obrphans of the

to 41-r- Hornby suggested that a committee should be appointed
"•eperate with the committee out of doors, and that the
should vote a small sum of money—nothing like what
,;aB 'Pent upon a former occasion, which they all agreed was
jet)? unsatisfactorily spent—but something like .e4OO or £5OO,
be devoted to some purpose of general national amusement
at the control of the committee.
1,4341 r. Kitchen hoped the organ in St. George's Hall would
Made available.
Jeffreys objected to any of the public money being spent.
'wir• Woodruff concurred in Mr. Hornby's views.
tkr. Banner hoped the council's resolution would be accom-
nied by a recommendation, that all persons wbo employed
cking men should pay them their wages on that day.
hi Mr.
And Earle said, in order to judge properly, they ought to
in other parson's shoes. It was very easy for persons
(V° had no workmen employed to recommend such a thing.
al*, hear.) It was easy to be humane in that way, but let
ei!,„. tanner stand in the shoes of some of those who had four
14,i've hundred persons in their employment, and then say
C he would lika to pay them on that day. (Hear, and
attghter.)
i. tanner : Quite well.
Zr• Earle: Not you, indeed. (Laughter.)
theulr. Banntun er : Quite well. I should be delighted to have
,2ppority.
thf:lr• Sheil strongly opposed the idea of a general holiday, on
Aeneas
that it would only encourage the working classes to
taii-.4ess, and lead them to spend the money which their families
result' t afterwards want. He pointed, also, to the many accidents,
last at least in one instance in death, which attended the
4general rejoicing in Liverpool, and urged that such occur-
cea "heuld be considered a sufficient warning, and that the
.e„!8 ef the people were of greater importance than their
n •
""Yrne nconcurred in the remarks of Mr. Earle, and
inflict enared that the council had no right to a penalty upon
"ere, and no right to encourage the working classes to be
rti and cause the distress of their families.
an
11,,in_r„.• Alderman Parker objected to the council giving y
MI, or taking any initiative step.
r. Robinson exrressed a similar opinion.
an r. Alderman Dover argued in favour of a general rejoicing,
be _towed that the council recommend the 29th of May to
Air'
rved as a general holiday.
kr. Wood • ffseconded the motion.
r in
up,• Clint contended that the general effects of a holiday
n .the working classes were most demoralising.
~bblct. Aiken thought the occasion too solemn for any foolish
been ten", and that the prayers of thanksgiving which had
for
tNi uttered in every church, for the restoration of peace,
ii
e led the most fitting celebration of it. (Hear, hear.)
herr• Rodson declared that any such public exhibitions as
to „oetlai_suaoly got up, were unworthy of a set of schoolboys, not
t a pave corporatin.
4 voted to h
id Johnson remarked that London could afford to celebrate
() aY
it
inasmuch as it had had a large sum of public money
~ _kilr r• Charles Turner moved, as an amendment, that the
ap be requested to communicate with the mayors of London
4 I. Manchester, and to act as those cities intended to do.
to 'lt
ecnne M. Branaley-Moore, M.P., thought the council ought
„
I„ to some decision of its own, without being
1;01; Manchester. He expressed himself favourably to a
771.135 and was of opinion that the couide a
0,,1 amusement for the public, and atncil m
the same timeprov make
rho council
er £B,OOO for the charities of Liverpool.
37
icionncil then divided, when the amendment was lost by
Mr. Alderman Parker moved a second amendment, to the

effect, that the question be left to the town, and that the council
express no opinion. This amendment Was lost by 26 to 22.
Mr. Dover's motion was then put, and carried, by 26
to 23.

Mr. Dover then proposed that the council place the sum of
£5OO at the disposal of the Mayor for the purpose, and that a
committee, consisting of the chairman 'Of committees, the
mayor, and the mover of the resolution, be appointed to co-
operate with the committee outside.
The Motion was carried by 29 to 20.
THE OLD BOROUGH GAOL PROPERTY.
The debate on this question was resumed.
A memorial from the Clarendon-rooms meeting, ono from
the north-end meeting, and one crom the committee of the
libaral association of Abercromby ward, were read. The
memorials were all against the proposed sale of the property,
Without, at least, further time for consideration.
Mr. A. C. Stewart asked if Mr. Ilornby had any other
communication to make to the council on the part of the

wrong ?

finance committee ?
Mr. Hornby replied that he teas not instructed by the
finance committee to Make any communication whatever, but
he was ready to accede to any such arrangement as would meet
With the approbation of the majority.
Mr. Robinson asked how soon could the land be given up to
the company, in the event of the recommendation being carried
out ? He understood that twelve months was to bo allowed
for the removal of the building materials there. (Hear, hear.)
If that were the case he did not see the necessity for the haste
with which the matter was being pushed forward. (Hear,
hear.)

The Mayor replied that a small portion of the land was in
the occupation of a yearly tenant as a stone and flag yard, and
he believed that absolute possession of the land could not be
given until February next.
Mr. A. C. Stewart said, that if the recommendation were
now and without turther discussion postponed, he would be
glad or it, but if it were not, he should move an amendment
to the effect that the price at which it was proposed to sell the
land in question was under its value—that it had never been
offered to the public on the same terms as it was offered to
the company, and that as it would be necessary for the im-
provement of the town, the matter be referred back to the
committee for further consideration.
Mr. Picten said that having some knowledge of the value of
land in the neighbourhood in question, he perhaps would be
permitted to offer a few remarks on the subject before them.
He could well understand the feelings of Mr. Hornby and the
members of the finance committee in respect of the strong
remarks that had been made made impugning their honour in
the transaction. Their feelings were such as every honour-
able gentleman would experience under such circumstances.
With regard to the price offered for the land, he was of
opinion, from his experience in the purchase of land in the
neighbourhood, that it was a very ample one, and quite as
great a price as they were likely to obtain for the land as a
whole. (Hear, hear.) But after the very strong feeling that
had been manifested out of doors, and looking at the question
es it presented itself with regard to future improvements, he
thought it would be wise, and that it would come with a
peculiar grace from Mr. Hornby, as chairman of the finance
committee, if the recommendation for the present were alto-
gether withdrawn from the consideraaion of the council. (Hear.)
If the land were at all valuable to the company, it would be
no less valuable for their purposes at a future time, and
while the delay would do them no injury, it would give the
council and the public time for a full consideration of the
subject, and for an opinion generally to be expressed as to what
improvements in that locality it would be possible to carry out.
(Hear, hear). After the feeling of confidence expressed in the
finance committee, by the rejection of the several amendments,
at the last day's meeting, he thought they would he actingvery
gracefully by at once withdrawing the recommendation for the
present, and he begged therefore to move a resolution to that
effect. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Hereby replied that, seeing the strong feeling on this
subject, and the great difference of opinion in regard to it, he,
as a member of the committee, would at once accede to the
motion of Mr. Picton, and withdraw the recommendation.
He trusted that the other members of the committee would
concur in that course.
Mr. M`Guflie seconded Mr. Picton's amendment.
Mr. A. C. Stewart said that he could see no objection to it,
and would not therefore press his motion. .
Mr. Robertson Gladstone observed that,naftet the serious
charges and insinuations thrown out by sorriel'or.tifie preceding
speakers, which were evidently intended for him, he would
claim his right of reply, and would enter under any circum-
stances fully into the subject.
Mr. Holt remarked that Mr. Picton's motion was in direct
opposition to his opinion. He declared that the price offered
for the land was an ample and sufficient one, and yet by his
motion he would prevent so fair a sale from being completed.
He would ask, was it likely that the land could be sold in one
lot otherwise? They wanted to get the best price they
could for it, and he was advised that the one offered was
an ample one. (Hear, hear.) He looked at the question
simply as a matter of £ s. d, and having regard to the interest
of the corporation estate, which he was sent into the council
to manage, lie was strongly impressed with the conviction
that they had a very fair offer them before for the land.
(Hear, hear.) If it was their intention to sell the land,why then
should it be postponed ? He had experience himself of the
danger of delay iu the price of land, and having a fair offer for
their property before them, ho did not see why they should
encounter the accidents involved in a long postponement. If
the property were his own personally, he would at once dispose
of it on the terms proposed, particularly if the negociation had
gone as far as in the present instance ; and he did not think
that the public would require from them, as a public body, a
sharper and more exacting policy than that which should cha-
racterise the dealings between man and man. (Hear, hear.)
He was prepared to support the recommendation for the sale;
but, at the same time, seeing the feeling out of doors, he would
be unwilling to oppose Mr. Picton's amendment. He should
again repeat, however, that his judgment did not go along with
the wisdom of postponing the sale.
Mr. Alderman Cooper asked if Mr. Holt had any shares in
any of the interested lines of railway?
Mr. Holt replied that he hold shares in tho Liverpool and
Southport line, but that it bad been decided on the last day
that such shareholders were entitled to vote. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman Cooper demanded that the opinion of the
town clerk should be given in the matter. The Southport line
was part and parcel of the Lancashire and Yorkshire company,
and that they should remember that " what was good for the
goose was good for the gander."
Mr. W. Earle : Indeed, sir, there aro a good many geese
here. (Laughter.)
The Town Clerk replied, that if the statement of facts sub-
mitted to him in the matter were correct, the shareholders of
the Southport line had no pecuniary interest in the transaction,
a guaranteed dividend being simply received by them, no
matter how the money was earned. They were, therefore,
legally entitled to speak and vote in the matter.
Mr. Woodruff said that if the law did not prevent them from
voting, delicacy should.
Mr. Hodson differed altogether with the town-clerk, and
Contended that the Southport shareholders could not vote.
Mr. W. Earle : Is our time to bo taken up, Mr. Mayor,
by amateur lawyers. (Laughter). Mr. Hodson may know
something about physic; but what does he know about law?
(Laughter).
Mr. Hodson answered that he should give any opinion he
pleased in defiance of Mr. Earle, and observed that that gentle-
man should not be so personal.
Mr. Alderman S. Holine : I hope it will teach Mr. Hodson
to be a little more considerate for others.
Mr. Hodson : I have received as much personality from Mr.
S. Holm° as from any member in this council, and I will
retort on every occasion:
Mr. S. Holm° : Two can play at that.
Mr. Robertson Gladstone : Mr. Mayor, I quite agree with
those who are of opinion that the matter at issue, strictly
speaking, is confined (with regard to the recommendation of
the finance committee to sell the Site of the borough gaol to
the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company) to the
insufficiency and inadequacy of tho price. Now, it would seem
that there are some little differences of opinion, even among
some of the members of the finance committee themselves, as
to what the price really is. One member of the committee
tells us that the price is £3 2s. 6d., taking it at 25 years'
purchase, the practice adopted in Manchester—l should say a
very bad practice to adopt in Liverpool, so far as property is
concerned near the docks, because that property is worth very
much more than 25 years', purchase. The chairman of the
finance committee has adopted £2 15s. as the basis on which
the negotiations were conducted. He has told us that 2s.
6d. is 4,1 per cent, upon £2 los. Now, I should like to know
whether £2 15s. was the price which the railway
company adopted as their basis of calculation when they
agreed to purchase the property. Because, sir, my own
impression is that they did not—that they took the sum of 2s
6d as an interest of five per cent., on a principal sum of £2
103, as the price per square yard.
Mr. Hornby : They did nothing of tho kind.
Mr. Gladstone: Now, sir, if I am correct in the views I
have ventured to express, I a hall be prepared to show you
what an anomalous position this whole matter is placed in.
Mr. Hornby : Mr. Mayor, I beg to state that Mr. Gladstone
is incorrect in his supposition altogether. (Hoar, hear.) The
price agreed upon, originally, was £2 153 per square yard, and
it was afterwards changed, at our request, at the suggestion of
the finance committee itself.
Mr. Gladstone : Is that not the price now ?
The Mayor : The company offered to pay '£2 15s per
yard.

Mr. Alderman Cooper : Cash payment.
Mr. Gladstone : Was it to be a cash payment ?
The Mayor : The price was to be paid in seven years, giving
interest.
Mr. Gladstone : That is no cash payment. From your
high position and experience, one would have expected a very
different description of a cash purchase.
The Mayor : Oh, I did not say it was a cash purchase.
Mr. Gladstone : Now, sir, I am going to show the anoma-
lous position in which the whole matter is. The Lancashire
and Yorkshire Railway Company have agreed to give 2s 6d per
square yard, which by my calculations, which perhaps arc not
very abstruse, I estimate as 5 per cent upon £2 10s. The
chairman of the finance committee based his calculations upon
£2 15s, and he states that 2s 6d is 4§ per cent upon £2 15s.
Now, sir, I differ with the chairman of the finance committee

ME NORTHERN TI 719.....,L1V POI L 9 THURSDAY, MAY 16,1856.

per cent, according to the mode in which I calculated it,
as the interest upon £2 15s for twelve months, would amount
2s 51d, Therefore, positively, we are in this position, that we
are receiving, according to this calculation, more than we are
entitled to from the railway company. We are going to got
2s 6d, being one halfpenny more than we ask, or are entitled
to. But why blink the matter ? Let us have the truths out
at once, that the pi ice is £2 lOs per square yard.
Mr. ITornby : I repeat, sir, that that is not the case.
Mr. Gladstone : Do I understand that my calculations are
I should b 3 very glad to see aay disciple of Cocker
get up and dispute thorn.

Mr. Horn by : According to your own estimate, your calcu-
lation is as nearly correct as possible. I ►nerely sta'ed that
4.1 per cent. was as near 2s 6d, or £ 15s, as possible, in round
numbers.

Mr. Gladstone : Yes, in round numbers; but in parting
with large property of this kind, smnething like an eightieth
of the real estate of the corporation of Liverpool, we should
have something more than round numbers. Now, sir, I
understand the proposal to be, that the Lancashire and York-
shire Railway Company should pay 2s 6J, being 44 der cent., or
£2 lsr. I contend, then, that we have no right to calculate
interest at 44 per cent. The dock estate, taking money on
mortgage, last week, had only between £2,000 and £3,000
offered, at 41 per cent. There were no tenders for the
renewal of bonds, and the same circumstance occurred
the previous week. Nor do I believe that, in the
present state of the money market, the dock estate,
with its excellent security, could command any large sum of
money much under five per cent: Now, if that is the case,
then I contend wo should require the rate of interest to be
carried out in calculating the price which the Lancashire and
Yorkshire Railway Company ought to pay. An allusion has
been made to the surveyor's report. I mean no disrespect
whatever towards the surveyor, but I confess that I do not
think his report is worth the piper it is written upon. His
calculations appear to me to be full of inaccuracies. £2 5s for
the back land, whilst the railway company, still further hack,
have been paying £4 and £5! £4 10s for the front ! Why,
sir, if he had said £8 or £lO for the front, it would have been
much more to the mark—and I shall be prepared to prove
what I said, and other gentlemen are hero to speak with
details corroborative of it. Now, sir, Ido not'know any cir-
cumstance more painful than when one feels that he has a
friend, one ready to support you in the cause you believe in your
conscience to be right, to see him turn aside—to feel that one
of the props upon which you were supported is giving way,
sinking in the foundations. lam very sorry to say I did not
expect from Mr. George Holt—l did not, indeed, think that
we should have had a deserter from our cause in his person.
Why, sir, Mr. George Holt informed me himself that the land
opposite the borough gaol, where, as I understand, he has
property, ono or two warehouses or more, he himself, twelve or
fifteen years ago, bought at £4 per square yard. Now, sir,
the land at the corner of Great Howard-street and Dundee-
street consists, for the most part, of an inclined plain, or
declivity, on which vehicles, drawing up to the warehouses to
load and unload, must, of necessity, stand with considerable
inconvenience, if not risk and danger. My attention was
directed to that fact, and I remarked upon it to one Or two
friends, who were very competent to give an opinion. I said
" I have been frequently over the site of the borough gaol—it
is a dead flat, and it appears to me that the east side of
Great Howard-street must, in that particular locality,
be much more valuable than the west." I added
that, in my estimate, the !difference would, certainly,
not be less than lOs per square yard. I was told I
should be much nearer to the mark if I estimated it at 30s.
That was the opinion given to me by a most practical man.
Now, sir, taking this matter on the ground which the sale has
been based upon, that of a perpetual lease. I am ready to give
you the name of a gentleman whose opinion I am about to
read on that question. It is, perhaps, not very pleasant, as
there are several architects and surveyors in this room, to put
parties into hostile array with one another on matters of
opinion, but I shall, nevertheless, read the opinion addressed
to me. Speaking of the site of the old borough gaol, the
writer says, " I am satisfied that if the land were lotted out,
and offered. to the public on a perpetual lease, the corporation
would realise certainly not less than £6 per superficial yard for
'it." (Rear, hear.) Now, that is the opinion of a practical
architect and surveyor of this town, for whom I entertain a
high respect.

hire been uttered by him if he had. He littte knovis what
the past could tell, if it could speak, of how they could make
their arrangements. Ido not find fault with their making
the best bargain they could, but generally they begi❑ by
offering about one half, having juries and arbitrators, and
then giving half as much again as they offered.

Gentlemen are in this room who can correct me
if I am in error oa that point. Now, sir, I thought
we were given to understand, at least four years since, in this
Council, that the money td he obtained by the sale of the site
of the old gaol, was to he applied to the cost of the new one tet

-Mr. Alderman Parker : I think Mr. Gladstone ought to
name him.

towards that?

Why had we not notice of it ? Ther
statement made in this council--there was an understanding
which every man with a memory, which can treasure up any-
thing at all, should recollect—that the site of the old borough
gaol was to be sold, in order to na'y us in cash, so far as possible,
for the cost of the new gaol at Walton; (Hear, hear.) That
stands recorded on your books. It has been• stated here, if
not by the chairman of the finance committee, by other parties
—and I rather think something like what I have mentioned
has been put forward by him, on more than one occasion, too.
(Hear, hear.) Now, sir, the chairman of the finance com-
mittee seemed to doubt what, at the moment, I believe he
considered an extraordinary statement on my part in regard
to the intrinsic value which would be added to the property of
the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company by this pnr,
Chase. I have consulted one or two parties interested in the
company since, arid, looking at the immense advantages
which no amount of compensation could calculate, I
am told I made a statement—such as t should have
desired—completely within the hounds of moderation
and of truth. Now, sir, I think I have pretty well,
so far as I have power and means to do so, exhausted the vari-
ous arguments which have occurred to me—hut I must not
take a farewell of the subject without a few parting words with
my friend the chairman of the finance committee. Mr. Mayor,
I admit that I speak strongly, and firmly, and, I hope, in a
spirit of honeet indignation. Beyond timt, I deny that I ever
went, and I appeal to any member of the council' to
say whether any personal remarks fell from me on that occa-
sion. I felt, as I feel now, that the finance committee had
committed a great error:l felt that they had consented to
accept terms for a vain: hle property inadequate to the occasion,
and having no direct reference to the value of the property
itself. Was Ito be silent, was I to succumb, because the
chairman of the finance committee dislikes the spirit and
principle of a divided empire—because lie has for years past
enjoyed an uninterrupted sway of popularity ? Was Ito be
silent—were my conscientious scruples to be smothered, be-
cause I did not fait down and worship the golden idol which
was set before me? Sir, they know little of me who would
try to catch me in such a trap. And, indeed, sir, I did not
expect that reproof from Mr. Hornhy. There are circum-
stances which should have led me to hope for different treat-
ment at his hands. He has now, however, spoke what he
thought, and so far I give him credit for it, but I tell him to
his face, I defy any one who heard me to get up and say that
by word or deed I ought to be considered as having offended.
as having transgressed the rules of debate, or the betinds of
moderation. Shall I remind the chairman of the finance
committee of two or three little inconsistencies of his? He
set out by stating that there was nothing he more approved of—
I am not giving his exact words, but the substance—than the
dissection, the ample and full consideration of all the proceed-
ings of the finance committee. (Hear, hear.) But, then,
when we get a firm grip of them, and begin to pull them about
and torture them, and see what they are worth, whether they
will stand this test of examination or noti he asks, why we do
not get up and move that a new finance committee
be appointed. That is the consistency of the chairman of the
finance committee! Then again he asked me a question—and I
suppose he thought it was a justifiable question—whether I
would undertake to guarantee, that if the bargain was not
concluded, I would be responsible for the difference, if the
land sold for less. But when it came to a question of respon-
sibility, in case the bargain were allowed to go on, then he
proposed that he should not be held responsible.

. .
Mr. Hornby : I beg leave to say that Mr. Gladstone is
misrepresenting me altogether.
Mr. Gladstone : I am sure I shall be most happy to hear
your own explanation. .

Mr. Hornby : I shall be happy to explain ; but I beg you
will not put the remarks I make in a light in which they ought
not to be put.

Mr. Gladstone : Mr. Cunningham—a name of very high
respectability. To state how many communications I have
received upon the subject, or to undettake to mention to the
council how many persons have addressed me, thanking me,
(perhaps, more than I deserved, for I was only in the discharge
of my duty), for the opposition I offered to the proposal, would
be wearisome, almost for the council to listen to. Amongst
other commuuications, there is one frotß a gentleman, who
tells me that he bought from 2,000 to 3,000 yards of land in
Great and Little lloward streets in 1812, at 3.5 s per square
yard, on a seventy five years lease, which he sold ten years ago
at £5 to £5 lOs per square yard. That gentleman is Mr.
Waring, of 36, Chapel walks. Other gentlemen can give you
various prices of bona fide sales in that particular locality. I
alluded, last Wednesday, to a member of the council who is
building two more houses further to the north or thereabouts,
not with a frontage to (lief, t Howard stree'' but altogether back
land, which ho is buying from Mr, John Shaw Leigh, as has
been represented to me—

Mr. Gladstone : I hope you will correct me afterwards,when
you have an opportunity of speaking. Now, sir, I shall listen
to any speaker who follows me, to see if he can lay at my door
any dereliction of duty, any improper deviation from the path dt
rectitude, in my remarks upon the subject. As I have said I
felt, and felt strongly, because the question does not
simply rest on our persons in its effects. There are many
men who, like myself, have a large stake in the town, and who
see what is going forward in London, and if ever I felt anxious
it is now, that there should be a judicious expenditure, a wise
economy, a correct care exhibited for preserving our funds, and
applying them to such purposes as are most desirable. (near,
bear.) I felt all this, independently of all the other circum-
stances I have mentioned. And yet I was to be found fault
with, because I thought proper to express my views on the
subject. Now, sir, there aro gentlemen hero who, I lisps,
will follow me, and state whether or not I am correct in saying
that the feeling of the town is with those who oppose the
recommendation on the r*rt of the finance committee. If
that be so, then I ask whether the minority were not perfectly
justified in attempting to enforce their views, in the best way
they could, consistent with what was legitimate and
right ? (near, hear.) I ask if we were not justified—
and I ask even the chairman of the finance
committee, who has thought proper to select me, and to shoot
some of his darts at me pesonally, whether he is now prepared
to justify or to adhere to that expression which he made use of
upon the occasion of our last meeting ; when we, endeavour-
ing as honest men—hat let us beware—let us use no boast of
honesty —if a man is not honest he has no business here, and
no right to talk ; but I say, acting for the best, and discharg-
ing our duty to the utmost of the ability we possess, were met
with the charge of factions opposition ? I ask'whether that was
language strictly applicable to the occasion, and whether we
merited that charge.

Mr. Alderman Dover: I rise to a point of order. I under-
stand that the statement Mr. Gladstone made, and to which
he now again alludes, has reference to me, I give it my most
positive denial. The sum lam paying is not half two shillings
and sixpence.

Mr. Gladstone : Then I must admit, Mr. Mayor, that my
information was incorrect.

Mr. Godfrey: It was not incorrect. (Oh !oh !)
Mr. Dover : It is exceedingly unpleasant that private
affairs should be thus dragged into a public discussion, (Elear,
hear.) I feel now that my honour is at stake. The price I
am paying is 275. 6d. per square yard at 4.1 per cont.
Mr. Godfrey : Mr. Mayor—

The Mayor : Mr. Godfrey I cannot now hear you.
Mr. Gladstone : Mr. Godfrey was the gentleman wl,o gave
me the information, and ho is hero to speak for himself.
Now, sir, let me call attention to another statement. It
has been stated that the site of the borough gaol
covers so considerable an extent of land that
from its very extent it would bo a matter of great
difficulty to meet with a customer for it. Now, sir, I would
just call your attention to a purchase made by the dock com-
mittee two years ago, which, as well as I can measure it—and
gentlemen are here who can correct me if I am in error—was
something like one and a half mile distant from the Liverpool
Exchange. The dock committee purchasel from Mr. John
Shaw Leigh 48,800 square yards of land at 32s 6d. This
price was confirmed by the conned on reading the proceedings
of the dock committee. Now, if that was a fair price, one and
a half mile distant from the Exchange, I should like to know
whether £2 10s, or, on the showing of the chairman of the
finance committee, £2 15s is a fair price for the site of
the borough gaol ?
Mr. Hornby : I should like to know what you mean by
saying .£2 lOs or £2 15s ?
Mr. Gladstone : 10s is my own calculation.
Mr. Hornby : Yes, but you don't deny my statement ?
Mr, Gladstone : Not at all. Who doubts the statement of
the chairman of the finance committee?

Mr. llornby : I think you did. (Hear; hear.)
Mr. Gladstone : Was that language to use—was that a
correct and honourable attack to make upon us, who were doing
our best for others ? Now, sir, I have concluded the remarks
I have to offer, and I hope, sir, that the next time the chaii -
man of the finance committee attempts to find fault with my
conduct—and it is, like that of all o hers—open to criticism
that it will be done iu a better spirit, and ceriainlY not accom-
panied by any such terms and expressions as those to which I
have directed your attention. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Godfrey said that as the authority for some of the state.
ments which Mr. Gladstone had made, ho would simply state
how the information had come to his knowledge. A few weeks
since he happened to meet Mr. Dover, and, in the course of
the conversation, that gentleman mentioned that he was build-
ing some warehouses at the north end—that he had a piece of
land to spare, and that if he (AL-. Godfrey) knew a friend who
had £2,000 or £3,000 to lay out, ho would guarantee him a
per centage. Ho asked him how he would let the land, and
Mr. Dover replied, on a perpetual lease at 2s 6d the square
yard, observing that Mr. John Shaw Leigh now let his land at
2s 61 the square yard; and from that he had been led to sup-
pose that that was what Mr. Dover himself had given for it.
Mr. Dover: You simply misunderstood me.
Mr. Godfrey continued : He was surprised to bear Mr.
Picton say that he considered the price offered as very ample,
for he was told that some time since Mr. Picton was
employed as a surveyor to value a piece l'of
land in Love-lane, known as Pickup's mill ; he valued
it at £3 15s. the square yard without compensation. The
jury awarded £3 I Is. for it. Again, in the same locality, the
Mayor and Mr. S. Holme valued some land for the railway
company at £2 10s. the square yard, but the jury awarded £5.
The Mayor : So far as I am concerned you are quite mis-
taken. I had nothing whatever to do with it. (Laughter) I
would suggest, however, that this line of argument is not rele-
vant, unless you are going to discuss every question connected
with each plot of land. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Godfrey continued : He received his information in
the matter from a gentleman who was employed by the
trustees of the property. Ho could give many instances
where large sums of money had been paid for land in
the neighbourhood of the gaol, but he would go to the site
itself, and mention a few facts in connection with it. In 1819
the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company paid to the council, for
782 square yards of this back land, four guineas the square yard.
(Hear, hear.) Again, in 1847, the London and .North
Western Railway Company purchased from them 18,210 square
yards, in the same locality, and paid them £3 5s the square
yard for it ; and if that company paid them that price for a
part of the land, why should they now sell the best portion of
the land to the Lancashire and Yorkshire company for the
paltry sum of £2 15s the square yard? (Hear, hear.) He
had no hesitation in saying that the land was now worth
the square yard, or a rental of ss, and that the difference
between that price and the terms now offered, if the sale wero
pressed, would be a loss to the corporation of £30,000.
(Hear, hear.) As representatives of the public, they would
he guilty of gross mismanagement, if they allowed such a sum
to be lost to the corporate estate; and he did not see how those
gentlemen, who advocated the sale, could justify their conduct
to their constituencies next November. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Picton observed that, though he was not there to
account for any of his professional acts, he was still prepared to
reconcile the opinion he had given that day, with those which
he might have expressed in other cases.
Mr. Alderman. S. Holme sail : I should have been content,
sir, that this subject should have been referred back for consi-
deration in iilence, if it had not been so entirely reopened, and
as remarks have been made by Mr. Gladstone, in all the agony o
impassioned eloquence, which must go forth to the public, I
think it is only right that I should have the opportunity, as
deputy-chairman of the finance committee, of making a few
remarks in reply, so that the bane and antidote may go together.
Sir, 1 will not, at any time, shrink from the discussion of this
subject, either as a matter of expediency, or as a matter of
policy, or, upon the merits of the resolution ; nor will I be
deterred by any declarnatiorr whatever from the point that is at
issue before this council. I agree with Mr. Herlihy, that it is
the duty of the council to look narrowly at the proceedings of
all its committees ; it is the very object for which
we aro sum xoned ; but when the hue and cry
is raised—when a tone and manner are assumed
which, I confess, have caused to me irrepressible pain—when
motives are imputed, and criticism itself degenerates into a
species of personality, then, I say, that the argument ceases to
I be just, and should be deprecated by every gentlemanly mind.

Mr. Hornby: £2 15s was the original price.
Mr. Gladstone: Yes; but I put it into illy own figures.
Upon the principle 1 havo laid down, with regard to distance,
I hold that this site is worth £4 or £4 10s. I contend that,
apart from that consideration, the price is inadequate ; that
the terms aro novel, in their character, to the council ; that
the council has always spurned the idea of parting with the
freeholds which they have upon perpetual lease. I contend
that the price which I will take, as Mr. Hornby seems so very
sensitive upon the subject, at £2 15s, is not a sufficient con-
sideration for the value of the land ; that it includes nothing
for the freehold, and, moreover, nothing whatever for the
accommodation granted for the inability, on the pert of the
railway company, to pay cash for the purchase. I should have
liked that the finance committee would have come forward
with some sort of date—something to prove that in Great
Howard-street, and the immediate locality. £2 15s is a
just, fair, and reasonable price for such a property
is the site of the old borough gaol. I ask if
they have brought forward one single statement sliming
members of the council, not practically acquainted with the
value of land, that £2 153 is the value of that site ? Then,
again, sir, we were told, on a previous occasion, that this property
had been offered already at public auction, and that at the
same time various other lots were offered—that these lots
were disposed of, but not the site of the borough gaol. Why,
sir, it would seem almost as if the site of the borough gaol
was put up without any really determined intention of selling
it. With money at 8, 10, and 12 per cent, to go and put
up 19,900 square yards of land, expecting that some stray
traveller would pop into the auction room, and pull out a
£50,000 or £60,000 note from his pocket to pay for that
lot of land—was that a reasonable expectation ? Why, sir,
the land should have been divided into lots. The old woman's
story, about out having to wait so many years until it would all
be sold, might satisfy us that there is a desire among
certain parties holding warehouses to get rid of that site. It
is in the market, and stands ghastly staring before their eyes.
They know very well that if warehouses were erecZed upon
such a site woe be to their property. (Hear, hear). Some of
the north end gentlemen think there is a great possibility that
the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway will concede what some
parties very much approve of—a market at the north end.
Now, whether there is to be a market at tho north end or not
is out of the question now—l de not know; but that it is a
matter very well entitled to consideration. Theiefore, they
havo refused to come forward and express what, otherwise, they
would do—their disappeoval of this sale. We know very well,
at least I do, from those I have met out of doors, that the town
is entirely opposed to the confirmation of this disposal of the
site of the boroughs gaol. Several wards have expressed
their opinion—l believe, if time had permitted, every
ward in the town would have sent in its views
upon this 'matter. to the town council. We have been
told that Mr. James Holme, to whom I allude with perfect
good feeling, for he has refrained from taking any part in the
debate, and therefore it is not fair to say anything of him to
which he cannot reply—but I just wish to mention that we
have been told by the chairman of the finance committee that
Mr. James Holme proposed to withdraw the offer. (Hear,
hear.) The chairman of the finance committee has not had
quite as much experi,mee of the Lancashire and Yorkshire
Railway Company as ether people. That sentiment would never

I.(ltear, heir.) The committee have been charged with

ED i Vefil
Mr. Robertson Gladstone : I imputed no motive, nor do I
make any charge.
Mr. Alderman S. Holme : I beg pardon, motives have been
imputed by others.

Ir. Gladstone

Mr. Hohne
Mr, Hodsol
Hdlme

Name them ?

Mr. Hodson-did so,

1 deny it, I must repeat tha

It the finance committe

Its said

came to pull them about and torture them" (measing the
committee) ". then the cry was, why not. dismiss us." Sir, •is
that language that a gentleman of Mr. Gladstone's high position
should use to gentlemen—his equals in position, his. equals in
respectability, his equals in independence ; and I say that
language, such as that used in this council to_day, ought to be
deprecated by all gentlemen of right feeling here, as it will
be deprecated out of doors when read by like gentlemen.

I riso to order

(Cries of order

Mr. It. Gladstone
order, and chair, chair.)
Mr. Holrne : I will not he interrupted
Mr. Gladstone : I call on the mayor to say whether in m
address I was guilty of any lat
(Hear, hear.)
Mr: Holmo continued : There is nothing easier than to find fan]
—any man can do so—anyrnau can throw dirt on the finest dres
which the skill of the weaver can manufacture; but tit(
man who can find fault is unfit to be a legislator. (Rear
hear.) I say, again, that there can be nothing easier. than
for gentlemen who do not take the trouble to mak( -
selves acquainted any subject, to come in

uage which was out of order

council and find fault'vvit

ae labo

them-

although the current rate at the present time was higher.
He pointed out that the 41 per cent was a calculation for
a perpetuity, and therelve a fair average rate. He
expressed his regret that on the last day a threat should
have been held out by Mr. Gladstone to deter the finance

committee from proceeding further. He accused Mr.
Gladstone of inconsistency in using such a threat, remind-
ing the council with what strenuous earnestness Mr.
Gladstone had, upon a recent occasion, in allusion to the
arlestion of town dues, denounced the centralising policy
which would take from local municipalities the control of
their own affairs, and place them under the power of a
I London

ward. Oz that occasion he reminded the meet-
) fact, that Mr. Gladstone demanded whether the

government, by the course they were pursuing, intended
to de•ive Liverpool to take refuge under the star-spangled
banner of America. He charged Mr. Gladstone, there-
fore, with serious inconsistency in now threatening an
appeal to that very central power whose encroachments
he had so frequently and so earnestly denounced. Mr.
Tobin defended Mr. James Holme, and contended that
that gentleman should have been permitted at least to
defend himself from the imputations which had been cast
upon him, if not to take part in the debate upon the
actual question at issue.
Mr. A. C. Stewart, in an eloquent address, opposed the
recommendation of the finance committee. He dwelt
strongly upon the necessity of retaining at least a portion
of the property for the carrying out of town improvements,
which if once the site passed wholly from the hands of the
council could never be effected, n less by purchasing
back at a far higher price the very land they had sold.

He also urged that the price offered was not a sufficient
amount, and laid much stress upon the fact that when the
ground had been cleared it would have four fronts. In

ae bancas

that warehous

re and Y orkshire Railway, he contended
s built on that land in close proximity to
be most valuable. For these and several
other reasons which he explained at considerable length,
he opposed the wile under the present circumstances.
Mr. Alderman Bennett, while he hoped to see the
railway company get possession of portions of the land,
objected to the council giving up the power of making a
road through it.
Finally, Mr. Hornby eaid he, as an individual member
of the finance committee, should not oppose Mr. Picton's
amendment.

the lin

Mr. Tobin made a similar statement.
The amendment accordingly passed without a divisi
The next portion of the finance committee':,
was a recommendation to purchase land and pr(
adjoining the old gas works in Dale-street, for the
£2,200.

Toceedings

recommendation bo

;essary for the cow-

Mr. liornby proposed that t
adopted, stating that the land wa
pletion of the new bridewell.
Mr. S-unuel Hulme said this land with the buildings on
it, in Cheapside, was being purchased for 445. the
yard

square

Mr. Gladstone : How many:yards ?
Mr. Holme : 1000 yards.
The recommendation and the remaining proceedings
were confirmed.

The proceedings of the watch committee were also con-

firmed,

It was then nearly four o'clock, and the council, on the
motion of Mr. S. Holme, adjourned to Wednesday next,
this being the second adjournment which has taken place.

COUNTY COURTv -YESTERDAY

(BEFORE JOSEPH POLLOCK, ESQ., JUDGE.)

SAMUEL AND ANOTHER V. REGAN. —ID this case the
plaintiffs were Anu and Eliza Samuels. and the defen-
dant was John Regan, a clothier. The sum sought to
be recovered was £5 lOs 7,1 d, being the amount of
damage alleged to have been done to some premises
occupied by the latter. The delapidations complained
of chiefly consisted of the removal of a square of plate
glass in a door, and substituting one of common glass.
After a protracted enquiry, his Honour gave a verdict
for the plaintiff, damages £5. _ _ _

BENNETT V. THOMIS.—In this case Mr. Alderman
Bennett was the plaintiff, and Richard Thomas, cart
owner, of West Derby, was the defendant. The claim
Was for £3 lls for a gate and house fittings for a new
house built by a person named Hughes, under contract.
It being proved that the plaintiff's wife had gone and
ordered the things by and with the consent of the
contractor Hughes, his Honour directed that a non-suit
should be entered, as it was evident that the plaintiff
had no claim upon the defendant.
EDWARDS V. WRIGLEY.—This was a claim for wages.
The plaintiff was a bookkeeper, and had been employed
to make up a set of books for the defendants, who carry
on business in Temple-buildings. After that he had
made up the books he was engaged at £6O per annum,
but soon after was discharged without any notice, but
at the same time giving him a most excellent character
for his assiduity and business habits, and being perfectly
fit for any situation in any mercantile house. On the
present occasion the junior partner of the firm appeared
to defend the claim, and in the course of his evidence
stated that the plaintiff had been discharged for
absenting himself from his business. His Honour
severely commented upon such a procedure, when the
witness admitted that the written character was correct.
A verdict was given for the plaintiff for £1 38, being the
amount for one week's notice.

POLICE COURT

-YESTERDAY

(BEFORE MR. MANSFIELD.)

ASSAULT.-George Slater was charged with having
assaulted Elizabeth Prout, under the following circum-
stances :—lt appears that the complainant is a servant to
a gentleman named Lawrence, who resides in Prescott-
street ; Mrs. Lawrence is the sister of the prisoner, who,
it was stated, is a person of respectability. Some time
since, by the death of the prisoner's mother, he became
possessed of some property, and, it was alleged, that
when he collected his rents he nes in the habit of
getting drunk, and of annoying Mr. Lawrence's house
and family. In one of these fits, on Tuesday morning,
he called at the house and created a disturbance, broke
some property, and assaulted the girl. Mr. Mansfield,
after hearing the case pro and con, (the above being the
facts), fined the prisoner £2 for the assault. The fine
was at once paid.
WIFE DESERTION.—CharIes Cowell, described; as a
fireman on board the Rose steamer, plying to London,
was brought up by Inspector Williams, charged with
having left his wife and four children, chargeable on
the parish since October last, whereby a cost of £l9 15s
had been incurred. The inspector said he found £2 in
the prisoner's boots when he arrested him. The prisoner
was sent to jail for one month with hard labour.

(BEFORE MR. ROMILY.)
SHOP ROBBERY.--TWO females, named Susan Jones,
and Anne Nowlan, mother and daughter, were brought
up by officers Grisenthwaite and Wilson, of the detec-
tive police, on the following charge. It appeared that
between Monday night and Tuesday morning, the
drapery shop of Mr. Parker, No. 54, London-road, was
broken into, and a considerable quantity of property,
consisting of scarfs, silk handkerchief's, shirts, wearing
apparel and other things, stolen therefrom. The officers
proceeded to the residence of the prisoners in Eaton-
street, Vauxhall•road, and there found some portion of
the stolen goods. The prisoners were remanded.

FORTUNATE ESCAPE OF A YOUNG

SCOTCH GIRL.