The Express.
London, England, 1850-04-16 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 16, 1850.

an ad valorem ditty, not • 'vaulted semi, bat an
equede per tentage, rislag in proportion to the initrament.
being ose-hall per sent. en mortgage deeds or souveyancee,
until they roes tea certain automat. Hie ht hon. friend
the assabar for Cambrkige ll•iversity **Med ta that
.
iHe (4k• Ciaseellor of the Moshe ) muld only
s'arr= he lied ressited. a great atuielme. Mummy
of Tie qualm at this paint wee, wheals, AAA parson
*to beernwed a large amount W 6/ set ter Soy dm same
epztommeam dm, m • pew Pans& wire- besenrod 111
woos,. (Seer, hear.) He hod proposed. wed be
emus' to abide by an ad cabman peitelpleas of some
meet bow to whatever might be the alike 01 tie imam
He had beard it urged that that. Right he a ease of
100,0001. lout to a great India house to omen Its failure,
aad that it would be bard to eisbjeet Nish a tromostioe to a
proportionate stamp ; bat was not the ems just us hard
when the poor shopkeeper, borrowing a malt sou to sent
• mewing exigeaey, was made to contribute • proportionate
amount to the stamp duty? Wear, bear.) It might be
epee se se objection to tax borrowings at all, bat surely it
was just that there should be the rams per ventage
I. the cu of the large as of the small borrow-
ing. (Hest, hear.) He quite felt that the amount
charged on some borrowings would be very large, and,
therefore, having oommusicated with the Comishatisners of
'Bleed Brereae, he was prepared to propose en equitab'e
redaction. The rate proposed was now one half per cent.
He proposed to reduce it to one quarter ; that was to say,
on the 1001. The bon. member opposite ealculated that
the government propeeitLn would ad I half a million to the
revalue. Hs (the Chancellor of the Exchscpmr) could only
say that he should be very happy if the hon. member's pre-
dietiorl armed cut tiorreet. He hal;gone over the secants cars•
foily ar ith the Commissioners of Inland Revenue,some of whom
had bum Commissiosien of Stamps, and the conclusion they
had 0011 i• to WAS that the loss consequent on the introduction .f
the pr. sent bill might be taken at 300,0001., or perhaps
270,0004., and the proposal he had just announced, reducing
the per centage from one to one quieter might entail •
farther loss of trona 30,0001. to 60,0001. He could produce
as figures that would settle the exact amount
He did not know that there were any other general
observations requiring an answer, except that of the
hon. member for Carlow es to existing deeds. If that
hen. member had taken the trouble of referring to the act, be
would have found that the case of existing deeds was provided
for.

Mr. DISRAELI said that the right hon. gentleman,
although prefesaing to defer his explanations for the
elusion la committee, had yet favoured the house
with some gourd obeervatiou as to the ar-
reagemente of the reposed bill, which proved
them to be of rather a complicated kind. He understood
the right nem gentlemen to sAy that he had brought in the
measure for the advantage of what he was pleased to ten
the landed interest. His object was, it seemed, to Jurist the
small proprieten—not the least important seefioa of that
interest, by the modification of such stamp duti:s as affected
their transactious. The right hoe. gentleman said that at
the time he introduced this measure, he informed the house
that he could not maks this beneficial aerangement for the
small proprietors, wales • he made at the same time some charge
which should press heavily on the large proprietors by the,
adoption of an ad votary,' duty. He (Mr. Dieraelil could not
remember that the right hon. gentleman had made any such
'Moment. (The Chancellor of the Exchequer—" Oh, yes.")
His statement, when he introduced his budget, was, " I am
going to introduce a measure (r the benefit of the landed
in t . I anticipate that the change will cost 3.50,0001., and
I am going M sacrifice that amount from the surplus I have
in hand." That was an intelligible proposition, but what
did he say now ? He said, "I am prepared to b neat the
small landed proprietors to the extent of 3.5),0001., but I
must get a compensating amount by taxing the large pro-
privates. (Hear.) It appeared now, in fact, that this
150,0001. was not, in fact, any /Maui in st all. (Hear, hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER slid it
would not be in order to refer to what had pawed in a former
debate ; but surely the bon. member's memory must be de-
fective, ming that he had put words in his (the Chancellor
of the Eichequer's) mouth whi b be had never uttered, and
—unintentionally of eaurse—had misrepresented other words
uttered not five minutes slue. He appealed to the house
whether, when he brought forward the stamp duties he bad
not distinctly stated his project. What he had stated
war, that he proposed a measure with r gird to the
stamp dutiee, the loss by which would be somewhere
about 300,000!., and the removal of the brick duty at some-
where about 400,000!., both together about 750.0001.
Now, the hon. gen laman said that he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had somehow oe other got 350,000/. into hi,
pocket ; he hoped it might be so, but he was seiolly at a loss
to know from whence it was to c0...e. When he stated that
he anticipated a loos of about 300,0001., he stated also that be
proposed to relieve transactions of a scull amount, and to
increase the duty on those of a large amount, and that on
the bilanee of the account, he calculated that tint has would
result. (Hear, hear.) Ile had concealed nothing, neither
had be are-ivied anybody. (Hear, hear.) And with regard
to the application of the ad valorem duty, when he ',ought
forward the budget, and again on the following Monday,
when he moved the reso:ution on the stamp duties, be stated
most distinctly, and ho helieveJ nine tenths of those who
beard him would corroborate what he s.id—(hear)—that he
proposed to a•lopt the alralorens prioriile throughout. In
order that chile might be no further mistake be wi-bed again
to sate distinctly that he proposed to adopt an ad ra/orens duty
in all C 1111•4, but to modify it so u not to require a different
priced stamp for transactions of nearly the same amount : for
instance, there would be a certain stamp for transactions of
2,0001, another ftr those of 2,3001, another for those of
2,5001.,and so a, ruing by small jumps, instead of taking the
enact act valorem duty in each ,eparate ease, and tut upon
the change taken altogether, including mortgages and
bonds. there would be • loss to the revenue of from 300,0001.
to 330.0001

Mr. DISRAELI rejoined—The right hon. gentleman had
stated that the incr,ase of the ad valorem duty on large
transactions would be the compensation for the decrease in
the small transactions. If so, what was to be done with the
350,0001. which he would thus have beyond the surplus he
had caleulated upon ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had stated
ditttnctly that he increased the duty on the lather, and de-
creased it on the smaller transactions, and that on the balance
he should lose about 330,0001.
. .

Mr. 001.3.131.. RN did not clearly understand by what
NM,* the right bon. gentleman arrived at that result. He
should like to know on what principle he had based his ail-
culstion to arrive at the e inciusion that attar settling in his
own mind the am runt of loss which would arise from the de-
crease of the duty in the miller, and the gain which would
follow from the increase in the larger transactions, there
would still be a loss of 300,0001. or 330,0001. The right
hoc. gentleman had taken the loss on mortgagee and bonds
At 60,0001. only, while the rest of the 101111 was to result from
conveyances.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that the great bulk of the loss would be on conveyances,
which, from the greet bulk of the until transactions of this
nature, ha calculated at 230,0001 ; but, in regard to bonds
and m ,rtireges, it was crosi lered that the low amount of
duty would induce parties to stamp such deeds in all eases,
whereas now the duty was often evaded on small transac-
tions.

Mr. F. MACKENZIE asked in what manner, after the
posing of this bill, it was intended to enforce the stamp
duty on large transactions of thi. nature ? Would it not be
evaded in the same way as, accorAing to the right hon. gen-
tleman's s'aMment, it was now on diets for swill sums ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It would
not he worth while.

Mr. HENLEY wished to know on what We the right
bon. gentleman had arrived at the conclusion, that by
chancing the mnrtgage duty from 10s. to 6s. per cent. he
would Ise 60,0001. From what the right hon. gentleman
had mid when he brought forward the budget, he did not
gather any indication of the intention to tax annuities end
jointures, or that any new bead of charge wan to be imposed
upon the landed interest. (Hear, hear) But now it
appeared, instead of receiving any relief, they were to be
subj. cted to additional taxation.

The
.---.—...
T ATTORNEY GENERAL thought it would be mere
convenient to postpone the cousideration of the question, as to
the propriety of taking annuities as ecusideration money,
until they came to the schedule relating to that subject.
With regard to the probable loss arising from the alteration
of the duty on mortgages, bonds, covenants. and securities that
most be • mutter of estimate ; but not so as to conveyances,
for they could ascertain the actual proceeds of the stamps for
those purposes. If hon. gentlemen would take the compara-
tive statement of the present and the proposed scale of duties
in reference to conveyances, they would see that there would
be a great saving its all transactions up to 1,0001., the
stamp being at that amount a common one in both cases, of
somewhere about 91. From 1.0001 up to 100,0001. the duty
was much the same under the proposed and the existing
system, but beyond 100,0001. there was a cohsiderable increase
in the new scale. Conveyances of property above 100,00 W.
in amount were, however, of rare occurrence; consequently.
the results by way of compensation against the lose in the
smaller transactions, arising from them would be very small.
Mr. HENLEY thought he had reason to complain, after
the explanation they had just heard from the Atto-ney.
Osneral, of the conduct of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
On a former occasion, he had asked fur some account of the
number of stamps of a particular charact r which had been
issued, and he was told by the right bon. gentleman that he
had searched the Stamp office, but could not obtain the
int,rmation :squired. Now it appeared the government had
it in their hands, and the Attorney. General, quoting it,
endeavoured to show erectly what the result of the proposed
change would be, so far as the stamps on conveyances were
concerned. (Hear, hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
was in a condition to prove what would be the Ines, but not
to show what would be the gain—that lam* remain a
matter of estimate. In the calculation he had made he bad
estimated that two-thirds of the stamps were taken (or con-
vegancA, and the rat (or mortgages and bonds, but that
11111111 t bs a matter of gawk

Mr. GOULDUBM observed that at present tits one pound
stamp was applied indisaiminwely ti conveyances and moat-
pegs- but the right hon. gentleman append to bays die-
coveted bow many were applied to conveyances. (Rear.)
Mr. MULLINOB believed that at present the 151. *tamp
was not appliesble to sonveysnose, bat eovemd a mortgaie
°Mose 100001., to 15,0001., and a settlement of from 12,0001.
15,00 W.—tho amount produced by Ibis class of stamps
wu 4,5001. or 4,6001., the &versos number of translations
which it embraced being 300 Under the new scale, averag-
ing the transactions at 12,6001, mob, and taking the same
number, 300, tbo stamp, which would be 621. 10s. saab,
would produce 18,7601., and dedactin4 the allowsnoe to be
loads for das difference Maw( en the mortgage• and tbe settle-
ments, they would be reduced down to a profit of 12,0001. on
this item alone. (Hear. )

Sir IL WlLLOballitY thought it was only due to the
landed Interest that they should know what new tares it
was intended to impose. (lieu.) !Would an agreosent
for a lase require to be stamped I As he road the bill, ho

helloed It would he liable to a tax ands, the hoot of cove-
nants..

tie: CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought It
would be mom convenient for him to give the exploitation
danWellit&by the hos. baronet when they mate to the sche-
dule. He might, however, say that there was nothialt lathe
bill wit* &mid fairly be mlbsd a new Sal. (Oar)
The CHAIRMAN put the first claws*, bat '
Mr. BRIGHT interposed. He thought the beam wee
ttalld upon to go on with the consideration of this bill M
solimittee under circumstances of a mast unfavourable
eharrester. (Hear, hear) Ha doubted if then were three
Reuben In the house besides the Chancellor of the Bache.
quer who understood the bill. (Hear, hear) There was a
universal opinion out of doors, so Jar as he could gather it
from the public papers, and from emveralog with people
who were profewientaly interested in the question of stamps
I —there was an universal impression that this proposition,
which was to have relieved the country from 300,0001. of
taxation, would really tend to Woman the tars,
sepposing the same amount of transactions to take
place under this bill as took place under the
existing stomp Act. (Hear, hear) He had not,
not, however, risen to Camps the merits of the bill, fur be
Mid not made himself sufficiently master of it to do so, but t
protest against its being premed through committee that
night, seeing that much dissatisfaction existed In regard to
it out of doors, and that it had but so meetly been placed
is the hands of member's, that they were not in a position to
go fairly into the discussion of the various details involved in
a manner estisfactory to the house or the public. Whet he
asked for was that more time should be given for considering
the =ware before they were called upon to pass it through
committee. (Hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL did not think the hon.
gentleman had done justice to himself or the other members
of the how, when he said they found a difficulty in nn
derstanding the bill. AU matters of figures were, toe cer-
tain silent, complicated, but all the provisions of the bill
wen plain and capable of ready exolanstion ; and the hon.
gentleman would find, if he would allow them to go into
committee, „that any matters of difficulty which might
occur to him or other hon. gentlemen would be ex-
plained. If, after going through committee, hon. gentlemen
should find themselves unable to understand any part of the
measure, or the amount of relief which it was intended to
give, then the objection to farther progress would come with
some weight; but he bad always found that the elucidation
of Wisest this nature was muchMsaisted by the discussions in
committee, and the explanations then given, and that in
this respect a amenities of the whole boom was far
more useful than a committee upstairs. As to the
manner ha which the proposition would affect the
, that must remain for the present a in itter of eel
culation ; but Mom on whose judgment the government
could depend gave it as their opinion that there would be •
loss of 300,0001. Supposing this to be correct, and that the
upper class of proprietors should be taxed by it to the eater t
of 300,0001. more than they were at present, it was clear that
the ri yule would be a relief to the amount of 600,0001. a year
to the lower class. This would be a considerable advantage,
not only to the smaller, but to the large proprietors. for tna:
must necessarily be ben. final to them which facilitated the
sale of property in small quantities, and so subdivide it
smonest a larger class of proprietors. Believing that by
snowing the bill to go through committm at ones it wee
more likely to receive emendation than by deferring it, he
hoped no further objection would be offered. (Hear )
Mr. MITCHELL dd hot think it would be just to apply
the ad valorem principle to =earpieces noires the amount of
the duty was exceedingly small. The fallacy was that in
taxing mortgsges, while they supposed they were taxing
property they were taxing debt.
Mr. SAULEIR was favourable to postponement. There
was no part of the keogdom where land was coLoentrated in
the hands of so smell a number of persons as Ireland,'
while, on the other hand, there wee the most extreme sub-
division in regard to the occupation. They bad heard of
the advantage of subdivision in the ownership, and the faci-
lities which in that respect the bill would afford, but it was
sot to be expected that that result could be e (Lead'
by a single operation. If such an al, video
did take place at all, it would be gradual.
Therefore, the government had chosen a most unfortunate
moment to making the proposed alteration—a most under
tunate moment for the creditor and encumb-red owner, be.
mute the parties who intmded to make purchases during
the next tour or five months in Dublin would calculate the
ad valorem duty they would have to pay, they would deduct
that amount from the purchase money, and they wou.d thus I
visit an evil upon the poione creditor. The tandem,'
and t-nant, the mercantile and the booking iota rest of
Ireland, had been unable to c monannicate their views re•
grad ierr it to any hon. member of that house. Undi r such
circurastaocer, be thought it would net be paying (roper
respect to Ireland to proceed with the measure; but, at all
events, it it were proceeded with in the present stale, be
hoped its further progress would be postponed until the Irish
members were afforded time to communicate with their
constituents.

Mr. HUME thought that It there was any portion of the
community more likely than another to be benefited by the
present hill, it was the people cf Zeeland. There was very
little difittulty in undentanding the proposal, it hon. gen-
tlemen would consult the printed table with which they had
each been furnished, inasmuch es that table contained the
coot of the stamp (or every conveyance or mortgage up t..
1,0001. The higher amounts were certainly not exp. a.ed,
and he regretted that such an omission had taken place.
(Hear, hear.) If • was of opinion that the coin.
saittee might proceed with greet safety •to consider
the fleet, second, and third clauses of the bill. The
first repealed the old awe; the second enectsel the new
reale, and the third merely stated certain excep ions. Toe
public press, to whose exertious the community owed a great
deal, had been d:scussing the measure, and the surge sdons
of the newspapers were now publisoed. The 610VerilaatIC
ha I Inured the house that the aggregate amount of tbe
general taxation would be less under the new bill than it
would be under the existing law, and therek re the measure
ought to be proceeded sith at once. He (Hr. Hume) had
been making inquiry on the subject at the Stamp-Mfieer, and
he was there assured that nearly 309.0001. would he the de-
m wed amount of taxation in the ageregate. Ile, there -
fore, hoped that no time would be lost in al:owleg the bill
to give that general reds( which it was its design to 112 .
Mr. CUNULLY agreed with the hon. member for Man
cheater, that the consideration of the bill ought to be
pulp mid for the pres.nt, OA there were very lew hon.
members in toe house who could enter upon the question in
its entirety.
Lard J. RUSSELL believed that if they were to postpone
the bill for a week, or a foruaght, or even for three week.,
they would be no further advanced in their views respecting
it than they were at the present moment. (Hear, hear.)
The objections advanced by the hon. members for Carlow
and Donegal to the alterations proposed u they atiectei
Ireland were not objections to the consideration of the bill
on that Light only, but they would apply to its considera-
tion on any night during the Holm They were objections
which would apply to the postponement of the cinsideratiGn
of the Stamp Act altogether. The inequality of the
Stamp Act had been remarked upon not only in writings
and public meetings, but • committee of the House of Lords
had pointed out its inequality and particularly its lulu-
lity in the heavy charge it entailed upon the small proprie-
tors. His right hon. fri.nd the Chancellor of the Ez•
chequer bad for the last )ear devoted his attention to the
subject. Very early in the present session it was an•
mounted that the attention of the government had been
directed to it. A month ago, his right hon. friend had
stated the nature of the measure—that he proposed that the
duties on the small proprietors should be diminished, and
that he meant to make • more equal distribution of
the duties with regard to the larger truest-
lions. Therefore, the principle of the measure had
been for • month before the home. When
the details wets stated, the resolution proposed, and the bill
brought in, attention had been 'treated to the subject ; and
his right hon. friend had had interviews with parties from
various districts of the country, and he had endeavoured to
meet and obviate their jest objections. (Hear.) Was there
no inconvenience likely to arise from postponing this mea-
sure 1 Wes it convenient to postpone it tor • month 1 lc
was not. Tree greatest inconvenience would be occasioned
by postponement, as many trunactiens would be kept in
abeyance. If there was • general sgreement as to the
justice of some such measure, let the house go into a con •i-
-deration of the details of the bill, not to adopt all rho
details at once, but merely to give its considerati,n
I to this particular proposal, and to state objections, if there
were aey, to that particular proposal. He hoped the
' house would at once enter upon a consideration of the
measure, when the objections urged to the proposal of high
duties on very large amounts, as defeating the object of the
act, could be fairly and fully discussed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MO WATT thought it due to the government to pro-
ceed with the elitists of the bill.

Mr. ELLIS urged upon the house to proceed wi.h the bill
without delay.
Mr. liircasu. explained. He hopetrthe ht. on certain
mnrtgaarie would be reduced to 2a. 6d.
Mr. HE&LD thought the bill would operate diaadvan-
tageottely in the transfer of some descriptions of property.
He wished to know how much the Treasury calculated
the revenue would lode by granting relief in all came up
to 1.0001.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that ho
had stated a fortnight ago what the probable effect of the
bill would be. Upon ell conveyances up to 1,3001. it would
afford positive retie. Upon all conveyances (vita 1,3001.
up to 100,0001 there would be a decrease. Up a convey-
ances beyond 100.0001 there would be an ince' ise. Upon
mortgages up to 3,0001., there would be a decrease ; beyocd
that tea re would be an increase. The lam to the revenue
upon the whole of the conveyances, and upon some of the
mortgages, allowing for the increase upon other mortgages,
would be somewhere under 300,0001. He calculated
that the lam upon the whole of the new schedule, which
war with two eaceptious a relief, would be from
330,0001. to 350,00)1, but of course this nould only be an
approximation to the actual lose. Still, this was his calcula-
as. (Hear, hear.) He hoped hoc. gentleman would urge
their objrctions to the various parts of the bill when the
same were submitted for consideration. If the meuure
turned out to be so objectionable that it ought not to pass,
so let It be, but it was only fair to the house and the country
that the objections should be stead and met in the usual
manner. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LAW understood that Ike object of the bill was to
recluse the amount of duty wader 1,0001 and that the estl
mate of the lose to the neonate wee based up= that redue•
lion. There wee every desire to reduce the stamps under
1,0001., but hon. gentlemen en his (the protectionist) side of
the house did not admire the imposition of an increased
burden on sums above 1,0001. Mortgages were least able to
bear additional taxation, and yet it was now proposed to
place a shifting bunion on them lobs Mr. SPOON ER complained that a distinct answer hid not
been given to the queetien raked by the hon. member for
S'ockport (Mr. Heald.)
Lord 1). S tUART did not know whether the bill would
or would not increase taxation. The right hon. genth man

the Cheapener of the Exchequer had certainly said that it
wouhttlearesse it. Whether it would be in the gross a
'remission of taxation or not, it would be a great
resimitim to the poor people, and he (Lord 8. Stuart) hailed
the snetenne as a step in the right direction. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON-expressed himself unfavour-
able to the emending stele of taxation, as propooed by cer-
tain pares of the bill.
Mr. MULLINOS said the bill was in a very imperfect
state, and be particularly directed attention to its 24th and
26th clauses, so containing matter which had hitherto
escaped observatinn during the debate.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if
the hon. gentleman would propose amendments embodying
his opinions, If agreed to by the house, he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) would readily add them to the bill.
A,ter a few words from Mr. Serinans and Mr. HUDSON,
the latter hon. gentlemen suggesting a postponement of the
bill tor a weak,
Clause I was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. SADLEIR asked whether deeds executed before the
passing of the act, but not stamped, would be subject to the
out or new duties? A eonveysneer of considerable practice
told him it wag a matter of great doubt, end if so, he (Mr.
Bsdleir) thought the doubt ought tobe cleared up.
The ATTORNEY.GENERAL said that he had no doubt
that they would be subject to the old duties.
Clause agreed to, as were also clauses 3 and 4.
On clause 6,

The ATTORNEYGENERAL stated, in reply to a
question frees Mr. Walpole, that all sums due to the crown,
la respect of stamp duties on cony. yances, &c., became
debts due to the crown, and no sufficient title could be given
while any duties remained so owing.
Mr. WALPOLE observed, that cues might occur of per-
sons desiring to purchase estates without knowing that any
sums were due to the crown for stamp duty.
The ATTORNEY.GENERAL said the operation of the
claw. would be to protect thou who paid the money. It was,
.f course', immaterial to the crown who paid the mune y, the
attorney or the purckseer.
The clause was then agreed to.
Oa clause 6,
Mr. BADLEIR salted why the penalty was increased ?
Tn• ATTORNEY GENERAL, in proof of the evil of the
rxi.ting system of a small penalty, iostaoced a case of a
gentleman having purchased an estate, and when the time
came for c .nveying it it was found that the original deed had
nut been stamped ; that the stamp duty would have been
1,0001, and the penalty being only 61, it followed that he
had had the use of that money all the time. (Laughter.)
Clews agreed to.
Cial4l,o 7 was agreed to with some verbal amendment's,
moved 'oy Mr. Alderman Tfitutesox.
On clause 8, which authorised retailers of stamps to make
an additional chorea on them by way of profit,
Mr. CARDWELL os j eted that it would leave the i ur.
chaser entirely at the mercy of the retailer.
Mr. GOULBURN said the effect of the elsuse would be
to impue an additional tax noon the public.
The A VTORNEYGENERAL explained that by the
law, as it at p•esent stood, rationen were allowed to charge
fir the parcrwent or paper en which the stamp was, except
in t e ease of a receipt stamp, and it was proposed that they
should he allowed also to charge for receipt stamps.
Mr. 111331 E thought there ought to be acme limit to the
additional charge.
Tne SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the public would
find a limit in competition. As the law at present stood,
there was no profit on these stamp., and in small coontry
towns it was impoesible to get them. It was clear they
could not put a limit.
...... _

Mr. CARDWELL thought the expense of distrihu'ing
stamps ',mot to be bane by the In:and Revenue Depart-
Mint.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
object of the clause was to give accommodation to the
punlic. It was not of the slightest oinstgoence to the
revenue.

Idr. 111.; ME said government ought to allow a sufficient
disevunt to the retailers, and if the Chancell.,r of the Exche-
quer would not withdraw the clause he would more that it
be afro• k out.

The clause was then struck :mt.
Clam 9 wu agreed to.

Oa cltac• 10.

Mr. SADLEIR said he unders'ood the Chancellor of the
Exchrquer to state that he did not wish to impais a stamp
on any transaction which was rxecopt at present. If th.t
was his intention be begged him to say so; and if the right
hon. centlemsn dared it was his intention to impose
stamp upon writings and ins•ruments that were now
ex-nlpt, he begged him to state what tho.e in,trumenta
were.

The CHANCELLOR nt the EXCHEQUER eru under•
stood to deny that tie h■d ever shad Po, and that what he
aid state was, that when they were going through the sche-
dules he woutl point them out.
Tne class ass then agreed to, after which the committee
proceeded with the scheoules.
SCHEDULE A.

Mr. MULLING:4 p—roposed; amendment. By the
present act a stamp of 21 6d. i. imposed on all agreement',
hut it they contain ahove 1,0'30 word', a further stamp of
imposed, and a lurther stamp of 355. tor every addi
tional I.U•IU words. This seal • t,l duties was continued in
the schedule ; and he propowt, as an amendment, that the
prof/ ..... ve duty on each I,OSU words be 2s. Gd., instead
ut 351.

Tne ATTORNEY GENERAL opprsed the amendment,
on the ground that it would entail a considerable Ices 01
revenue.

Mr. MULLINGS believed, on the contrary, it would
lug• ly increase the revenue.
Mr. 00U Lb CRN said he introduced an amendment into
the stamp act subj,cting agreements to a stamp of 2.. 61,
and the consequence was a considerable increase of a. venue.
Ile could not say what the effect of this reduction might
be; but by reducing the lower stamp to 2a. BJ., there bad
been • eery large increase of revenue. (Hear, hear.)
Atter • few words from Sir L. O'BittEm.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be better it the hon. gentleman (Hr. Mulling.) would
allow his amendment to stand over for the pr, a. nt, as eo
make had hi en given of it. Ile would not estimate off.
band what loss of revenue it would occasion, ►ut he
was told it would be considerable. He thought it was
not too much to suit that he should have time to examine
ite effect would be.

sent occasion. He spoke as if there were
before the house, that of the rich and that
(" So then are."l But their endeavours shout
patios to both. (Hear, hear.) He should
amendment, If his boa. friend persisted, u
would, In pressing it to a divbion.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he aceceptrd it as a nt
a certaiw amount of rt must he raised;
of the objects of the bill; otherwise it was one
mischievous in the whole series of legislation
hear.) Were it supported on any other pretecc,
of wanting money, he would meet the whole
face, and declare that there could be no more
mode of taxing the people than this hill prope..e.
hear) He accepted it only u a diroul nem
sought to reduce it to its minimum. It tee hor
advice, it would throw the bill out that instan,
any other mode of raising revenue to th:s most
interference with the adminiserati,n of
never was so great a mischief done to justice,
bonus to injustice, wrong, and every repsible free
jury, as regarded the honest man in this oountry
rived from this bill. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. O. BANKES said this question had not
• dire necessity, but out of a surplus—on .
incident, no doubt—(hear, hear)—and the .
they were to deal with that surplus rev, nue
Ito this discussion. His first impression as to I
gentleman's proposal was very differtnt to
entertained. He had heard nothing of the
principle, but something mu said about reiief
elan, as applicable to the land. (Hear, heir.
came to the questisn of an al valorem 'hay I
time, but not for the last. It the hen. bet
Willoughby) premed his amendment he would
Mr. HUMS acknowledg.d that 'mous wet
be considered in the present instance ; but it IN
that they might obtain a greati r üby bet
a duty of Is. iratead of 21. 641 (II at, hear.)
mu very low people who saved mosey, sad ael
into clubs where they were subject to fret
might avail themselves of the advantages
offices. Toe Inuit of the amendment
that two or three operations would sake
only one took place at present, arid in t
the revenue might Fe increased.
Mr. HENLEY would vote for the amendment
baronet pressed it to a division.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUes
it was necissary to pay some regard to the up
venue. He ha I already pretosed to redness '
2s. Gd , the loss of which he estimated
hoped the hogs, would n,t sanctio a ?minion
would entail a still greater sacrifice of re vce.te.
Mr. HENLEY sail the right hon. geolenar
the question by confining it to 11. stamps, articY
justified in doing. (Hear, bear ) It aff.czed
f classes. (Hear, hear )
After a few words from Mr. al ULLIKOS.
Mr. GOULBURN said there was eu.idere
in dealing with the stamp laws; but, on the art
di.p.wed to th t b. that, with regard to b..nus an.
when the object was to afford relict, it was Letts
duty that was too low than cue which w:
(Hear, hear.) He was disposed to vote for the
The committee then divided—
For the amendment
Against it
(The aaaaa natant was received with loud
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE,
state that, in consequent, of the decision just •
the house, it is hot the battalion of her Map
merit to proceed farther with this bill to n'
tram the opposition.) I do not wish to h.
.• •

assenting to ray prapontion implied by that
am anxious to guard against—but not know
effect cut of doon of this vote wAI b.., toou
will involv.. a Actions lose of revenue, I must
tonsider,beforo further proceeding wi• t the r: • .
MERCANTILE MARINE ItIL,
Mr. CARDWELL begg. d to mlt toe r , ,;
man the President of the Board of Tra le
Marine 8.11 would be taken on Friday
Mr. LABOUCLIERE stated in rept) that ti
Colonies Bill was fixed for Friday.
Mr. CARDWELL—CouId you name a da
think it lig. le it mar cruise on ?

Mr. LABOUCHEREre ;lied is the n•ratir
SECURITIES FOR ADVANCEMEN
BILL.
On the motion that this bi.l be read a sit )-.1
Mr. STUART said be was really f •••ott
motion that this bill be then read a •tc
bill was one to facilitate the f pct.!
caviled in the last asasioc, for toe sale of
estates in Inland; it ricked the get
in force, and purported to be a bill kr the'
operation of the previous act. Itt the etc
eveoine, in order that the house mig, t be
of WOO information indispensable to
to know whether sack a bill as the 1.1
peeper measure or not, h. (Mr. Stun
three questions of the hon. sod fern.
General for England, on which he w.,s ..b..
information. First, if any sale—and it ray
had been effected under the existing act? (ll
hen. and learned gentleman know? C.u.
in ormation on the subject ? If her c,:
ft- would. ( Rear, hear.) Sicetidly, hew in,
been mule by the commissionen f.,r the cal

estate*, whims ware at present in fore to
orders sales had not been eifeted ? thew,
putting his thrd question, he begged to say tr
would hardly believe that this was a bill whirl
enable penocs to parthme encumbered emu!
awl subieinenUy to pay only half e purr
whilst, as to toe renaming half, the purer sr
under noiessonsl rasponsilaility for the paym
near.) Was ever such an agreemeat tat s.,
(ilear, hear ) Theretore, before to ea r.torice
•r.O to pass into law, and before they were c
set it down in the statute buck w g
land, that a man might, under sancta not the

purl's* at any price they might ciloo:e
sale to be elf.cted at, and then be ,
aly one-half, and farther, be nader n 3 p. rs.
bitty for tho remaining half; he b.g..eu to
question—Had the commissioners aprote:l, n
ur proposed to them by any pinon t) yurd
ander their orders on these terms Hear.
proposed that the debate should b.: Low aro
the view of its being resumed when tn.. bm.
Information ss would enable it prot.crlj to Fr4e,
disaimion on the second reading. He h.d
justin:cion of this course, that act hat:ng gitu
learned Iriend the Solicitor•Gentral for Et

Mr. MULLINGS at first said he should prow his amend-
ment ; but alterwards, at the suggestion of Mr. Hurtle and
others, withdrew 1,, and the schedule was then agreed to.

SCHEDULE D.

----
The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER said he pre-
sumed the bon. gentleman (Mr. Mullings) would allow his
amendments to this schedule to stand over in the same way.
If the bon. g•ntleman would communicate to him his pr.,•
pouts he would take them into consideration. The dull.,
in schedule 13 applied to bonds and mortgagee, which were
put en the gime looting. Oa the first item, where the tonsi-
-1 deration wu under tOl., the pr. sect duty was one halt pie
cent.: be proposed to reduce it to one.fourth. In lieu of
.5.. he proposed 2a. 6d.; and in lieu of the n. it item of 101 ,
Itie proposed 6s.
Mr. MULLINGS said that the highest amount of duty by
the present wale was 251.; under the one proposed it would
go up as high as 1,0001.
The CHANCELOLR of the EXCHEQUER said if the
two first items were agreed to, the question of an ad valorem
duty might fairly be raised on tho third—where the sum a z•
needed 1001., he proposed that for every 100/., or a frac.
none! part tkercof, there should be an additional duty
of 61.

tab. n *Muse el this bill, notice that he ant
these questions, the hon. and learned gantlets.
geßted to hid to more for ?ruin.* VI
authentic information. The hon. Cr.!

Mr. GOULBURN disapproved of the application of the
ad valorem principle in this cue; he only approved of it
es applied to the raising of revenue. If that principle w. re
adopted, they yawlt take care to begin the scale so low, that
the higher duties might tint be oppressive.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know why a poor nun, went-
tang to borrow 101 or 1001, should be made to pay a higher
duty than the man who borrowed 1,0001. or 10,0001. (Hear,
hear.) Surely the man who wanted to borrow a large sum
was just se capable of contributing to the revenue as he who
borrowed a smelt sum ; and the smell sum was just as im-
portant to the l►tter as the large *um to the former.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. CiOULBURN said he had already stated, in an early
pert of the evening, that the imposition of a heavy burden
on large bands and securities would place rtstrictions oa the
employment of capital in various ways in which it was at
present employed meat advantageously for all classes. R^
did not ask that a smaller rats of duty should be placed on
large sums than on small ones; but it the amount were
ceavy, especially in the case of mortgages on factories or
shops, the parties might be prevented trom obtaining such
reduction of interest as they might otherwise secure. It
was most desirable that the ad ra!arem duty should be fixed
sudiciently low, so its not to oppress the h'gaer class of
' borrowers, while it gave considerable relief to the lower.
(Rear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK agreed with the right hon. gentleman
that the same rate ought to prevail from the bottom to the
top of the scale, but could nut consent to the amount of the
latter being made an argument against the ad ralarem prin-
ciple.

had told him that night to give inch a Lottc,
the exentustsnees, he thought it only retson,
motion for adjournment should he agreed to.
The SOLICIIOR-GENERAL se. and wr
to address the home when Mr. cte:l k:
General for ['viand) Zee rose, and hi. dot. g so
laughter. The Solicitor•Oeseral for Eug.and
way.
Mr. HATCHELL said he was so persota:
that he Salt bound to come forward, er n at tht
poning any information whioh his hon. ano I
the B.dicitor-Geuerel for England might be sh:
hon. and learned member for Newark k.
As the hohourable and 1 d start.mon E.
questions to himself personally, he was c. rta:l
that he had not bestowed upon him tho mitt
which, during his short experieueo, he h.
to be ex•en led to other members when it .4.1,
pit que.tions to them, in order that they e
tak?st hy surprise. (Hear.) fie had nut recs.. ed
and he had been surprised to discover that
leaned friend the B.4loitbr-Geners: E-gl
apprised of the gaestions, and that he (Mr,
called upon !or explanation. (Cheers.) He
.

whether such cmaluct was ju4 toward. hins..l.
id a enemlxr of that house' t Crete.
hen. and learned gentleman (Mr. Stu .r:1 h
questions. First, he had asked how mr.ny
sold under the commission? Had he had trot

have stA:ed the number, but under the are
really could nut say whether it was 5, 7. or
.umed, however, that the hon. and lear..ed g.
bionally read a newspaper—(laughter)—and th
well es the Irish journal*, had given the inta:
he r. quired. In reply to the second qm.iti
number of ord. rs had been made, he begged to
a circular which was sent to every met
House of L,rds and the Home et C
ord.rs had b:en regularly publifbel.
third qui stion—whetber any one p men
o►ered to buy 'Tan the term*, he wou4 ask i
learned gen l..utan, who had chargal him h,
with not having read the Ell, whether he h...]
read it himself, seeing that he could ask such
(Laughter.) As he (Mr. Hetchell) real tho
Mined nething like what the hon. gentl.m'
pounded. He did not know whalkr or
and learned gentleman was ssti.fisd with these
his questions, but he trusted that they wire II
satisfactory to the house, and t►at when the h. n.
gentleman again desired information Lom !Lis
kind enouab to give notice. (Cheerio )

Mr. DISRAELI understood the right hon. gentleman
Mr. Goulburn) to say that, if they adopted the ad raioron
principle, they must take care the drat step was a small step,
and he thought the prine'pl a sound one.
hie H. WiLLOUGHBY said he thought the fleet step
too high. Instead of 2s. dd. it ought to be Is.; and be would
propose an amendment to that effect.
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to
state to the committee what the law was, and what it would
be. At present, on a bond not exceeding 601. the
duty was 20s. He proposed to reduce it to •do. 6d., and to
carry that ad raloreta duty fairly up. (Hest, hear.)
The present law, beginning with 20s. for every consideration
under 601., went as high es 231. ter a sum of 20,0001. There
it stopped; and whatever the amount borrowed might be,
tile duly did not exceed 251.—whether it was 50,0001. or
600,0001., it was still 261. HMI the ad valorem principle
Deemed to be quite lost sight of. Tne man borrowing a
large sum was probably the richer man ; but this was a
Circumstance into which the legislature could not enter. It
might be just as impo•sible to the shopkeeper to borrow
6001. as foe a large East India house to borrow WO,OOO/. ;
therefore it would be unjust to tax the former in a higher
ratio than the latter. (Hear, hear.) There might be
an objection to taxing any bond, mortgage, or war-
rant of attorney at all; but so long as such mat-
ters were subjects of taxeden, it seemed fair to
carry out the principle of an ad valorem duty. (Hear, hear.)
The reduction he proposed would be equivalent to a remis-
sion of 1,0001. of taxation ; and that was a very fair seduction
to carry eu'. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said they were now endeavouring, in
cons•ructing a new system, to do it on a just basis. The
Chsneelbir of the Exchequer had put forward the anomalies
and motiqtreeities of the old system, as though the house was
regionithle for them any =lre than himself, and as if refer-
taw t) them were any answer to the objections on the pre.

Mr BTUARt rose amidst some iiiierrupt:oi
He had given noti.•s of his questions in the •ar:
night to the law i.tlicer of the crows who had
hill, and be had not concriecd it possible ;lia, b.
charge of it was uninformed on the sub4ie t
questions related. lie had meant no iltro ui
the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Ilaichell.'
Mr. HUME said, seeing the anxiety of t►e I
the sale of Irish encumbered estates culled of
the ',regrew of the hill would not be delayed.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said by the first CI :use
was provid.d that the whole of the rurelube
be paid into the bank. The money borron.d
the inount of the purchase.
Sir .1 W.ILSH appealed to the st..lll4ur an,
of genttenleit on the bench opposite, and
i.iukters whether it was decent—whether