The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-11-21 00:00:00

THE APPROACHES TO 7HE RIVER.

The Chairman said the next business would be the con-
sideration of the resolution of the town council's special
committee on the approaches to the river, which was post-
poned from the last day, in order that the dock committee
might at the same time take into consideration the motion
of which notice had been given by Mr. Bold. Since th, n
the f„ flowing resolution had been received from the special
committee of the council, dated Monday, the 17th
November, Mr. William Earle, chairman :—"ll?.solved,
that the dock committee be requested to nominate some
members of their body to confer with this committee
upon the various (motions referred to the committee by
the council.'

Mr. Bold said it now became his duty, in consequence
of the notice he gave last week, to move his resolution.
During the interval between last Thursday and this day,
after consulting with the chairman and other friends, he
found it was considered by them, and by the chairman
more particularly than any body else, that he ought to
extend the sphere of the operations of the committee.
Perhaps, therefore, his best plan would be to read the
altered resolution he now inte ded to propose, if the com-
mittee would consent to his then introducing it, if not he
should defer it until next week. The resolution, of which
he gave notice last week, was, "That a special committee
I3e appointed to take into consideration the present defec-
tive approaches lo the hurling stage, and to report as to
the best means of improving. them." He now connected
with that subject the consideration of laying out the pro-
perty which would soon come into their possession,
between the Prince's Dock and the Canning. Dock Basin.
He, therefore, now proposed the following reso:uLion:—
" That a special committee be appointed for the purpose
of taking into consideration the best plan of laying out
the land between the Prince's Dock and the Canning
half tide dock, and whether any and what alterations
should be made in the existing docks and basins, with a
view to give improved facilities to the trade of the port;
and also to take into their consideration the present
defective approaches to the landing stage, and to confer
with the special committee of the council as to the best
means of improving them—and to report to the dock
committee."

The Chairmln put the question whether the com-
mittee would agree to proceed with the amended resolution
forthwith, which was unanimously assented to.
Mr. Bold said as he had read the resolution, and the
subject had been so frequently, not only before that cord-
mittee, but before the town, he thought it unnecessary for
him to say further than he had previously stated. He
therefore should simply move the resolution, reserving to
himself the power of replying to any observatios made
upon the subject. _

Mr. Barber had great pleasure in seconding the
resolution.

Mr. Smith said it anpeared to him that the question
now assumed a very different shape from its appearance in
former discussions, and one in which there did not appear
to be any difficulty.whatever. There had just been read
to them a communication from the council, requesting
them to appoint a- sub-committee to confer with their
special committee upon the suhket. He did not think any
gentleman at that board would say „no" to that request.
(Hear, hear.) The council had now taken the initiative,
and the dock committee, he was sure, would be prepared
to join that body heart and hand to devise, if possible, the
very best mode of laying out the whole of the property
between the Prince's dock and the Salt.house dock ; all of
which must necessarily be re—arranged. But he did not
think Mr. Bold's motion assumed exactly the shape
which he should desire. He thought the first thing
to be known, was the extent to which the council
was prepared to carry out the improvements which
were contemplated in the bill of 1854. It was, therefore,
his intention to move that a special committee be ap-
pointed to confer with the council upon the subject to
which they referred in their request, and he thought
this course would be much better, than the double sort
of view which Mr. Bold's motion had. The latter motion
seemed to begin to deal with the property, before they
knew whether the corporation were prepared to carry.
out those improvements, which must be dove sooner or
later. It was desirable that, in the first instance, they
should know what the corporation were prepared to do,
and then they could deal with the question as a whole.
It was not desirable for them to begin to deal with their
property, with the view of giving improved facilities for
access to the landing stage, which might lead to some
plan suitable enough for the present ; but, which, the
carrying out of the improvements he had referred to, and
which must be done s,,oner or later, would interfere with,
and cause them to feel how much better it would ha.vo
been, it; in the first instance, they had dealt with the
question as a whole. (Hear, hear.) He, therefore,
intimated that he would bring forward a ['notion of the
character he had mentioned.

Mr. Rankin said before he was aware that Mr. Bold
intended to alter his resolution, he thought it would be
better t,• appoint P. special committee, to take a very
general view of the extension and improvements which
were necessary, both to accommodate the shipping with
wet docks, and graving docks, and also to give
facilities for approach to the landing stages. Of tl,e
necessity for such increased accommodation, he thought
there could be no doubt when they looked at the extension
of the trade of that port which had taken place during a
century back. It had doubled itself every fifteen years
during that period, being now about 130 times greater
than it was a century ago. Even since he came to Liver-
pool, eighteen years since, the increase had, by the last
return, been 113 per cent upon what it was in 1838. So
far as he could judge, the next return would be at least
125 per cent increase. It was, therefore, beyond all doubt,
necessary and proper, that every possible facility should
be afforded to the trade of that great port as it inereas d.
There need be no jealousy whatever between Liverpool
and the Birkenhead side, because it was merely a question
of time—they would both be required. The motion he
should therefore propose was—" That a special sub-coni-
mittee be appointed to consider and arrange plans of
dock improvement and extension, and to confer with the
sub committee of the council regarding the approaches to
the landing stages, the widening of the streets along the
line of cbcks, and the transfer of the baths' and the
adjoing land from the corporation to the dock trustees
and to report thereon from time to time to the committee."
The object which he (Mr. Rankin) had in taking that com-
prehensive view was, that the dock committee could not
begin to shape their ground in the slightest degree betwixt
the Waterloo and Albert docks, until they knew whether
the corporation were desirous of widening the streets and
of disposing of the property where the baths now stood.
If the council were inclined to do so, then the dock com-
mittee would be enabled to form the docks and approaches
in a very different manner from what they could do, if
they were confined to their own ground. The dock com-
mittee had increased their rates by 10, and in some cases
15 or 20 per cent upon ships and goods, and that increase
was borne by the ratepayers without a murmer. It
was, therefore, the duty of the committee to see that the
interests of the ratepayers were thoroughly protected in
anything that was done, and to see that all facilities were
given for trade. It was as necessary that the committee
should go into those points, as into those which related to
the landing stages, important as they of themselves were.
The two might be blended together with more propriety
than taking either one by itself.
Mr. Lockett seconded the motion.
Mr. Smith said he Shouldut once withdraw his motion
in favour of that of Mr. Rankin. It embraced all tho
points which he proposed, and more, to which he had no
objection.

Mr. Bold said the only objection he had was, that that
was doing little more than he proposed. Mr. Rankin
wanted to go into the whole question of dock extension.
Now, they had been told by parliament, that at present
that would not be listened to again. The object,
therefore, of the committee should not be directed
at the present moment, especially to that purpose.
He had • also the objection, that matters of that
kind generally devolved upon the works' committee.
This was more a question of a special nature. As to the
taking down of the Goren warehouses and the widening
of Bath-street, 411 these matters, when the conference
was held between the special committee or that hotly and
the committee of the council, would very naturally arise;
indeed they must arise. Also with regard to the property on
which the baths now stood, and all the land to the west-
ward of the George's Dock must naturally be a part of
the considerations which would -arise when the sub-
committees came to confer together. lie had no objection
to the views embodied in Mr.. Rankin's -resolution in
themselves, and he did not pretend to say that they should
not ask the council to bear a larger proportion of the
expense of the improvement than that estate would do.
But all of these matters would, when the parties met,
grow out of the conference. He (Mr. Bold) had confined
his motion to the docks and basins now in existence, and
to the laying out of the land which would come into the
possession of the dock committee in the course of next
year.
Mr. Rathbone suggested that Mr. Rankin should modify
his motion by substituting the words, !` improved dock
accommodation' for "extension.''
Mr. Rankin said he could hardly do So, because it was
obvious that it would be a great improvement if the
corporation were to .widen the streets he spoke of while
they were shaping out the whole plan. If the corporation
would not do so, then the committee Must only report '
to the dock trust, and go for powers to deal with the
ground as they had it. The first step, in his opinion, was
to ascerta,n what the corporation would do with regard
to those points. It was obvious that the trade of"the port
rrquired (Ex* aoemmelatiori to • an increased extent,
wet docks and graving docks, as well as the approacheS
t ti,the lardi.,g stage. Ile could not see any reason why
the one should be dealt with more than the other. They
were equally important,
same.tlnte.
!loci °light tp talsrn nt the
Mr. Barber saw very little objection to Mr. Rankin's
motion, and if he could see in it any improvement at all
upon the motion of Mr. Bold, he shoal certainly be dis-
posed to support it: But he thought everything in Mr.
Rankin's motion was provided for in Mr. Bold's, with the
exception of dock extension. He should have no objection

to the words, were they not coupled with some ohserva.
t ions. from Mr. Rankin, which might lead it to be supposed
that the chief otrkct, of the resolution was the extension
of the docks. The remarks of Mr. Rankin, in alluding to
the doubling of the trade of the port, might appear to the
public to be the ground work of the resolution. Now, he
did not thinkthe dock committee could adopt that view,
or the conclusions at which it would seem Mr. Rankin
would arrive. Sueh a geometrical progression continually
going on was out of all reason, and must come to a stop
some time. If the trade of the port went ori, as Mr. Rankin
seemed to think it would, doubling itself every fifteen
veers, where was it to be accommodated. In a very short
time there would be no possibility of findingaccommodation
ror it in the estuary of the Mersey, or even in the Irish
Sea, (Gear, hear, and laughter.) The committee came
back after their former application to parliament with rather
a snub, and they must only make some better use of the
deck since and accommodation they already had. The
improvement, therefore, of what they hid, he thought of
much greater importance, and more likely to meet with the
sanction and approval of parliament, then an endeavour for
tee further extension of their docks. (Hear, hear.)
11Ir. Anderson supported Mr. Brld's motion on the same
ground as Mr. Barber did—that it was more specific, and
dealt with the matter they had in hand more in or der than
Me: Rankin's motion. The special committee of the
council was appointed to take into consideration the
approaches to the . landing-stage, and they asked the dock
trustees to form some committee to confer with them. Now,
although be thought, at another time, it would be very
important to take the larger question into consideration
which
,etas propo-ed by Mr. Rankin, he did not see exactly
what it h-id. to do with the matter which was immediately
under oonsideration at present. The introduction of that great
additional question would p►obably complicate the matter,
and. he, therefore, much preferred the motion introduced by
Mr. Bold.

Mr. Gallstone thought there could be no doubt that Mr.
Rankin's motion was infinitely more comprehensive in its
extent than Mr, Bold's, but then comprehensiveness, as he
understood the matter, was not the point at issue at this
moment. So far as he could form a judgment, he thought
tbeir going to parliament to ask for too much would in all
probabi'ity result in their c 'ming away without getting
anything at all. So important a subject as dock extension
should really stand upon its own b tsis and form the subject
of a separate committee. He agreed with many of Mr.
Rankin'. remarks, but his opinion was that it they went to
parliament iu the manner proposed by that gentleman, the
great question of dock extension alone would be considered,
and the object which Mr. Bold had in view would be
entirely defeated.

Mr. Lockett-telt satisfied that with regard to the property
between the Princ anti the Salthouse dock, Mr. Rankin's
motion might be advantageously included in some way.
It did•not refer to dock extension so much as to the arrange-
ment of a certain part of the property. •
Mr. Bold : I say so in my motion
• Mr. Gladstone : I would like certainly to have the ques—
tion of the ground on which the baths stand introduced into
Mr. Bold's motion. (Cheers )
Mr. Bold.: I have no objection whatever to *add --" the
transfer of the baths and the property adjoining to this com
rnittee."

Mr. Smith "suggested that it might perhaps better meet the
case if Mr. Bold were to 'put the latter part of his motion
first.

Mr. Bold : Well, this is a most extraordinary thing. I
had that very portion first and the Chairman asked me to
put it last. (Laughter.)
The Chairm zn : Q tire true, indeed.
Mr. Rankin : I must still urge the necessity of dock
extension. I cannot look at the central position of the
port of Liverpool, surrounded as it is by the population,
the wealth, and the science of the manufacturing districts
without being convinced in my own mind that the trade of
Liverpool is as yet only in its infancy. If you set aside the
idea of impreveraents for the trade of the place, for the
tnere.purpose of giving facilities of approach to the landing-
stages, you will have many parties who will eo against
you. I will for one. I am as desirous of giving good
apprOaches to the landing—stages as any one can be, but I
will not sacrifice the money of those who have paid the
dues for the take of that object alone. Hu must be a. bold
man indeed, who will say that the trade of the Mersey is to
be restricted to its present amount. There is n) reason,
that I can see, why it should not go on progressively
increasing as it has done heretofore for many yews to come.
I therefore certainly do attach a very great importance to
the word " extension," to giving accommodation to vessels
in wet docks, and vessels iu graving docks, to the landing-
stages, to the basin entrances, and also slips for carriages
with loads coming across from one side to the other. But
all this requires to be done hand, in hand, or else it will
receive no support from me, and I fancy that in this respect
I am expressing the opinion of two-thirds of the-ratepayers
of Liverpool.

Mr. Barber said be did not express any opinion
against duck exte,,sion in moderate and reasonable style,
but he did not wish the committee to adopt the conclusions
which Mr. Rankin appeared to adopt by the figures he
made use of.'

Mr. Anderson slid he, too, was no opp meet of dock
extension. He 'quite agreed with Mr. Rankin, that the
trade of the Mersey was in its infancy, and thu it would
requ're every p'.:ssible accommodation.
Mr. Rankin : The inference from s3rne of the remarks
made would be, that that question was secondary to the
approaches to the landing•st ige.
Mr. Anderson : I only objected to mixing the two things
up. I should support Mr. itankin's motion at any other
time for a special committee to take into consideration what
extension of acommolation might be ,ffordt d.
Mr. Mondell said Mr. B dd's motion had been so much
chopped and changed by putting the second part first at the
suggestion of the chailman, and by subsequent alterations,
that he could scarcely understand what it meant. Mr.
Rankin's motion, on the contrary, was sufficiently plain,
comprehensive, and clear. lie did not think they could
sepirate the question of dock extension from the other
considerations at all. The trade of the port should be
the first consideration, and the approaches to the landing-
stagfs the second.

The Chairman said, Mr. Bold had done him the favour of
eh ming him the resolution he had prepared, and the only
point on which he suggested alteration was that he recom-
mended to Mr. Bold, as desirable, that the laying out of the
land should, be put prior to the consideration of the
approaches to the landing stage. Mr. Bold was quite aware
that, although agreeing in a good 'deal of the resolution, he
(the chairman) thought it desirable to throw the question
open still wider, and, of the two, he certainly should prefer
Mr. Rankin's motion, although he thought there was a great
deal to be supported in both, and should be very glad if the
committee could come to some unanimous determination.
(Heir, bear.)
Mr, Hubback said, seeing that Mr. Bold had brought the
subject first before the committee, it would be only respect-
ful on their part that his motion should be considered well
before any amen bumt, introduced that day, without previ-
ous notice, was adopted in preference to it. (Hear, hear.)
As the distinction between the two seemed to be almost a
distinction without a difference, he urged that Mr. Bold's
motion ought to be adopted.
Mr. Bold remined the committee, in order to correct
what appeared to ba an impression, that the only fears of
approaches to the landing stage, of which he knew nothing,
did not of necessity involve the taking down of the Gloree
warehouses, although no doubt that question might come
under consideration.

Finally, after a protracted and irregular discussion, in
which some members spoke over and over again, a division
was taken on the amendment of Mr, Rankin, when there
appeared—
For the amendment: Messrs. Littledale, Rounthwaite,
Rankin, Smith, Palmer, Mondell, Chaloner, Lockett, and
Turner-9.

Against.: Messrs. Clint, Mann, GlAdstone, "fathead,
Holden, B Ad, Robinson, Anderson, B irber, Rathbone, and
Erubback.-11.

The amendment was accordingly lost.
Mr. Bold's m)tion was then put, in the following
amended form :

"That a special committee be appointed, for the purpose
of considering the best plan of laying ont the land between
the Prince's Dock and the Canning half-tide Dock; and
whether any, and what alterations should be made, w-th
the view of giving increased facilities to the trade of the
port; and, also, to take into their consideration the present
defective approaches to the landing-stages, and the transfer
of the baths and adjoining land to.this committee; to
confer with the special committee of the council as to the
best means of improving them, and report to the com-
mittee'
In this amended form, beside the addition relative to the
baths, the words confining the alterations to "existing docks
and basins," are omitted.
Mr. Rankin said : If the motion had been introduced in
these words, it would have saved a great deal of discussion,
as it now quite expressed his views. (Laughter.)
The committee then divided on the motion, when there
appeared.
For : Messrs. Clint, Mann, Gladstone, Halhea3, Holden,
Bold, Robinson, Anderson, Barber, Rathbone, Rubhaok,
Littledale, Rounthwaite, Rinkin, Turner.-15.
Against.: Messrs. Smith, Palmer, Modell, Chaloner,
Lockett.--5.

The motion was declared carried.
Mr. Bold proposed that the committee consist of eight
members, as follows :—Messrs. Rankin, Braeklebauk,
Hubback, Barber, Turner, Holme, Anderson, and Bold.
Mr. Lockett, and other gentlemen, objected to members
already.on the councii'l subcommittee being placed on that
committee.

The names were howeyer, put seriatim, and carded.
NIL% Loc4ett then proposed that Mr. Smith's name be
added.
Mr. Hold objected, on the ground that Mr: Smith had
opposed aril thwarted, by :every means in hie
spt,r)tocneythe
T. 3
,'Ws of the maj.prity.
Th'.! 'motion was carried by l 0 to 8.
Mr, Bold proposed that Mr. Mann be added.
The motion was carried.
Mr. Palmer proposed that Mr. Mondell be added.
Mr. Bald protested against the irregularity of thus in-
creasing a committee which his motion bad fixed at eight.
9hOrmau thought the board could not be prevented

I from adding to the number of the committee if they thought
fit. .
Mr. Rathbone strongly objected to the committee being
so consti•uted that thosa who were th 3 minority in the board
on the principal question would form a majority of the com-
mittee..
Mr. Barber demurred to the conrs3 which some members
were pursuing.
Mr. Holden said that course was placing them in a very
unpleasant position.
Mr. Palmer nevertheless persevered in his motion, and
the name of Mr. Mondell was aided, by eleven to seven.
Mr. Bold proposed that Mr. Holden be added, which was
seconded by Mr. Bt ber.

Mr. RounthwAte thought they might as well now add
all the Birkenhead commissioners to the c )mmittee, as they
were interested in the questi n. (Laughter.)
The moion was carried by sixteen to three..
It, may,,perhaps, b 3 added that the four gentlemen pro-
posed, subsequent to :the criginal formation of the com-
mittee, fill vou:d against their own names.respeetively.
Ratinione gave noqee that, at the next meeting, he
would move that the number of the committee be reduced
to eight,.hy ballot.
The application of the council's special committee, for
the aid of N.lr; H trtley, was then granted.
The harbour wstsr, Lietzteoant Parkes, were
authorised; on the motion of Mr. Bold, to attend the
council's special committee, on the duties of water bailiff.
The chairman, the deputy-chairman, end Mr. Brockle-
bank, were appointed as a sub-committee, to confer with
tt:e airmen's committee on the porcha.?, of the Birkenhead
docks, at the request of the latter body, in their ,t Insulta-
tions with Mr. Brunel on the laying out of these docks,
Mr. Hartley was also authorised to attend the committee.
This concluded the general business.