The Express.
London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

IhNECURES IN THK ARC EIDIOCHSE OF
CAN IIIKBURY.

and Robert Moan who le sew is promeelea, is als• pre-
bend of Canteens; Cathedral, nen! elllastelhispion sal
Hasten, with ether appolatments, maideg in all as lases
of 14,9631. • year. =d_ 42.1.6ffser. beite.")That
gentleman, with all.sh of
billies of Casterbery, tow edies of
the Prerogative Court. Darialltio dos. eat Dr.
Sutton held the see el thaterlswei the sighs' nesdiiii
died, and Dr. Sutton, seeding his pews, sendsated
present Viscount Canterbury, his in thee a child of
tea years of ego. (Hear, hes.) TM arehfidels, ilhop died Is
1828, and Dr. Howley was appointed to tie so. Some year.
after, in 1846 et thereabouts, the Ist* Mr. J. Moore, the then
registrar of the court, died, sad Dr. Howley had the power
Selling up the vacancy in reversion. lam Wormed, sad
the noble lord will correct me if I as wrong, that that meet
esellent sad venerated prelate amok • esarousktation to
' government to the effect that he Gould Rot, fa the eassieur
tioes discharge of his daty, all tip the spun Owen.
(Clbeers.) And I think it le oily due to the late Dr. Howley
to soy that I believe it wee sot the only istases la which he
lersrent this sort of patronage. (Hear, hear.) Bet, sir, fa
the yoke 18411,1whea Dr. Howley died, leaving the nosey
eldll walled, Dr. Sumner was emulated to the see of Center.
busy. He food the vacancy not filled up, and, as lam in-
terned, himself filled it up. The question which I sow beg
lease to ask the goblet lord is whether such is the feet, and
whether the soot reverend prelate Ins filled up the blank
with the same of hie own sou, or with that of the Bishop of
Wischeetee's son; and it will be • satisfaction to know
if the schist lord sea inform the loose of the age of the gen-
dews. I beg also to put masher question arising out of,
and eoserqueiat as the question I have put. In consequence
of these 'filen la the ecclesiastical wart being filled up and
semisoft' to, is reversion by boys and children of almost
tender age, the ecclesiastic .1 commiononen, in their re-
port, reconseaded that no such appintment should
thereafter be made, and I believe that, in conse-
quence of that recommeadation of the ecclesiastical
commissioners, • bill was brought in and passed into • law
the 10 & 11 Viet , c. 93, providing that all apoointoes..
made Star the pining of that set in 1847 should be subject
to the control and revision of patli im-nt. It is very clear
that the present archbishop with archiepiscopal forethought
made the appointment in the hope that parliament would
not interfere. I wish to ask whether it is the intention of
the noble lord to introduce any measure for the purpose of
revising thee. appointee/on and whether we may hope, if
such bill is introduced, it will include than persons net in
areal ponession of offices, sad consequently not haying
vested rights in this peculiar sort of patronage ? (Loud
cries of t. Hear. ties.")
Lord J. RUSSELL—Since the hon. baronet gave me
nobs of this question yesterday I have obtained information
on stint to which he refers. The office in question is
that of registrar of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury,
and I find that, as stated by the hon. baronet, Mr. MOW*
was appointed by Archbishop Moore, and that the present
Lord Canterbury was appointed by Dr. Manners Sutton to
hold the Olios in rereenion. Mr. More now holds the office,
and Lord Canterbury is next in reversion. It appears, as
the boo. baronet has stated, that the lets Dr. Howley did
not fill up the reversion which fell vacant during his occu-
pation of the see of Canterbury. (lieu, hear.) I cannot
say whether or not ho made any communication to govern-
ment on the subject, but I remember perfectly well his
sta.ing to me in conversation that there was an office to
which he could appoint, but to which he had
not made any appointment. He did not state to
me the nature of the office ; it might be this or
some other, bens. I believe there was more than one offitte
to which he had power to appoint, and to which he did not
appoint. (Hoar, hear.) It appears likewise that this se-
cond reversionaty appointment to the office has been gives
since the present Archbishop entered into the see, to Mr.
Sumner, the Archbishop's on, • young man now studying
in the Temple. (" Hem," and • laugh) Theo are the
farts. With respect to the law a bill was introduc din
1847, which bill paned into a law, which enacts that any
person appointed after the passing of that act to the office of
judge, registrar, or other office in the ecclesiastical court shall
old his office su"ject to such regulations as may be made
by parliament, nor shall any such person claim
or be entitled to compensation in as his office
be abolished by act of parliament. (Cann.) The case
of this office is at present undergoing inquiry by • select
committee of this house ; and it appean to me that it is one
of those offices which, when parliament shall deal with the
subject, meet either be abolished or altered, and the salines
gives to thaw who efficiently perform the duties ; so that the
enormous amount of emolument referred to by the hon.
baronet must be taken away, and, by the clause to which I
have alluded, the gentleman who wee appointed • yesr or
two ago will have no claim fir compensation. (Loud
clarets.) The bill wee introduced in 1847, and it effectually
i precludes any claim for compensation for appointments made
since. (Hem, hear.)
Sir B. HALL—I beg to state that on Thursday next I
shall move for • return of all persons appointed or nomi-
nated in reversion to ecclesiastical offices in Eogland end
Wales, stating the nature of the office, appointment or rever-
sion, the age of the person or p. rsons appointed at the time
of nomination, and whether such person performed the duty
or was or was not in holy orders ; the name of the psnon
making the appointment, together with the nature and
emoluments of the office. (firs, bear.)
BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER.

Mr. HORSMAN said that on Thursday next he would
put a question to the noble lord something similar to that
which had just bean answered. In the sewion before last an
srrar,gement was made to suably the Bi,hop of Gloucester's
intense in the estates of Houghton. It came into his pos
session Indus. his predecessor had not filled up the two
lives. The bishop haying only one lice the eceksiastical
commissioners felt a moral obligation to leave the other
two unuominated. The question he would ask was, in
what light the commissioners would stand if the successor to
that bishop would not fill up the thee* lives?
GRANT FOR DRAINAGE.
Mr. DISRAELI asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
when the house might expect to ewe introduced the govern-
ment measure for making extensive grants fur the purpo.es
of drainage
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
Ivan directions for drawing the bill, but various questions
bad arisen, end communications had to be entered into
with Mioll pnons, which had created considerable delay.
He expected, however, to lay the measure on the table in
the coune of a few day..
OFFICIAL SALARIES.

Mr. HENLEY said it would be in the recollection
of the house that about two Tsars ago the present river's-
meat thought it right, coosidering the situation of the
country, to refer srations great brsnchrs of the public expen-
diture to a committee of that house. He had had the tumour
of serviag ow one of those committees, which was appointed
to revisit the miscellaneous estimates. Now that committee,
in its revel, same to the ft Itowieg resolution—" Your com-
mittee have not recommended any reduction of public sa-
laries in these estimates, a., after some consideration, discus-
sion, and divisioa of opinion, they thought that such reduc-
tion should form part of • general revision of all ulari. s
suitable to the altered circumstances, expenses, and condition
of the country. In courseof deliberation they also thought
it advisable to frame • more uniform rate of wages in every
department." lie did not find that in that valuable report on
the expenditure of the navy, the committee had expressed
any opinion on the amount of salary paid to the very large
civil establishments connected with that branch of the ser-
vice. They seemed to have directed their attentiin wholly
to the amount of service to be performed, and to have en.
tirely overlooked the question of salary. This t rotten him
down to what had taken place the other day, when the
noble lord then on the part of the government brought for-
ward • motion referring certain limited branches of the
public service to a select c,mmittee of that house. With
what view the noble lord referred these branches the noble
lord did not state, whether a reduction or increase was WM.
easy, but he (Mr. Henley) could hardly suppose that the noble
lord would have brought forward the subject at all except
with • view to reduction. However that might be, he
should procerd to state broadly the three branches which
the noble lord had selected. First there were such servants
of the public as had seats in either house of parliament;
then there were those who filled diplomatic situations; and,
thirdly, there were the occupants of judicial offices. He
(Mr. Henley) thought he should be able to show that oath
of these throe departments stood on special grounds, and
that they left untouched the great branches of public expen-
diture. First, the judicial offices were paid in proportion to
the income previously earned by the occupant at the bar,
because it was necessary that those who were to
guide and direct the administration of the law should

previously have attained eminence in its study and
practice. There was a specialit of itself requiring separate
consideration. Next ease the diplomatic service, sad there,
again, various circumstances were to be considered, such as
the number of persons av"iliable having the tat emery talents,
and thy 'spinets they were likely to incur in the countries
to which they were accredited, items which might be
influenced by manners, customs, and "'finial other causes,
all of which must be taken into consideration.

With respect to the third head, the gentlemen fill-
ing public offices, who held seats in either house of
parliament ; there, again, be thought be should be able to
show spretal circumstances distinguishing their position
from that of other servants of the crown. He thought
'tat when he should show how large was the
amount of expenditure that
eye of parliament, or at all events came under notice
after a lapse of time when the interest had passed away,
that the house would be of opinion that in all
Pose departments conkiderable saving might be effected.
(Hear, bear.) He shoul.l now, with the permission of the
house, proceed to state the amount of them various branchee.
He found that under the heads custom*, excise, taxes,
post-office, and crown lands—be was now looking at tie
finance aceeunts ol 1131 S-49--that the amount paid in
salaries and wages was no less than 2,818,0001. (Hear,
hear.) Now, not one Ladd"' ol this came under the revi.
et n of parliament at all. (Hear, hear.) He found that
them was also paid to • .rious coital-Moneta in sa-
twice 271.2714., ..n4 that the diplomadc salaries
am .unted to 140,0001. He &leo found as chimes on
th.,. Consolidated Fund an :pr the heads of courts ol justice
and police, no less than 1,097,9241. Thee items altogether
elainahted to 4,327,0001., not One lartoing 01 which cease
onier the review of perliareent. (Hear, hear.) There
was a certain amount sealed by act of parliament to the
lima of the present holder., but that was not a large
arnow.t; and with respect t i the rest, which might be fairly
stated at 4,000,0091 , not ono farthing, as he had before
mid, ever 0111, under toe review of parliament. (Hear.)
Torn in the army, navy, and ordnance, the salisies and
ages, which had nothtne whatever to de with the fighting
Mee, am-muted to 1,5,M 0001. In the eommiseariat there
Wee ahem 100,0001, end in tee mimel.aottous estimates
about 1,031,0001.. us at-or a grand aggregate of all thtse
tvla • 01 6,974,0001. ( ilaar, bear.) hut that was not all.
'litre was a lam, out .unt of r ilaries which were under
the contr.,' of g tveritiu.,nt, und ol which any halance saved
went leto the each, quer. There were the county courts,
with ail Wit judges and oaken, ease of the Ades in

Bir B. HALL said-1 now rise to put to the noble lord at
the head in the government the question of which I gave
notice yesterday. The question I hams to put has reference
to an office in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury,
called the allies of registrar. It is a sinecure
office, sad Its value, at 1 was informed previous to
this day, is 9.0004 Bat I and that in that estimate
I made a mistik bee ow 1 was this m irning informed by
privy good au horLy, that In e•nueyuence of various tees
and rut Austad., tr.is perfectly sinecure office is really womb
upwards of 12,0001. a yeas. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
The arehiiiahop, f w the time being, has had the power and
has ear milled it, of appointing one per+on to the offlqe, alai
nominating two other% as vacancies might occur, to fill the
office in anon solon. At the time that Archbishop Monte
Iv 1.. the see one pitsm held the office, and two vacancies
having occurred in the nomination, ►e nominated his two
sons, Messrs John and Hebert Moore, &WI three two gentle.
men in e.asequetee of surviving the ori.cinal nominee, seat
msivrly bald tie °Wien of It •eistru of the Pri,rottative
Court. (am, boos.) John Moors died a tow years ego,

f` •

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 1, 1850. '

Chancery, sad all tke benheuptcy setiglement, besides all
the dames la musts a deleaniell law :.Hu Wiese' toss he
mielltitresst110,118011:411i1706100.1st
to
teiw the eittrragabearil ssui seas
is the army; aavy, fiehmese teak is Med ambers,
%.(448.semmiilleese seva
emagarresistee
Mee cosNMI Ile of
the earaatty. Mar.) MA psi they sae Mid It wee
quite hapossible to me @WW2g set of the shit maws,
sad ea all that was poseible le de nut In dew is
cattle( dews the medike atelfliamessts. (11mr. hese.)
In 1811 he lowa* the leer mese biambee el public re-
mises eastems. flimbe, rules, eel team cost the
country, is salaries and other arum of collection,
1,993,5151. ; and in 1844—wheyasemlies le tbe noble lord,
great reductions had been made from Wee to time—the
tariff having been revised in 1842, and between 100 and
200 articles entirely 'track out-4s 1844 the eat of collect-
ing these same lose brandies of mime had swollen to
2,034,0001 Bat that was not all. An important item far
enteideratice in them owes tom the stspersaanstke allow-
anima (Hear, hear.) In 1838 the superannuation allowances
ea account of those breathes of reveme—(his did not take the
Pagoda.. into stwoust, because tits penny pang, having
been introduced I. the interval, a fair somparlsos could not
be made in that department se between the same two Years)
—in 1833 the superannuation' paid to retired ahem
from thee' departments, arsousted to 228,0001 ; and
is 1844 they had risen to 254,0001. ; eo that there
was as Mama' not only in the amount of the
salaries, but in the superannuation' also, thus as it were add.
fog to the expenditure on the right hand and on the left.
But it might be said that the avenue had increased sines
1838; &twitting that to be the eau, yet he found that the
coat of collecting had increased beyond its duo proportion.
In 1838 the expense of collecting the customs revenue
amounted to M. ON. 6d. per cent., and is 1844 it had rises to
Si. 4.. 24 per cent. In the excise the sort of collecting in
1839 was 611.6.. 4.1. per coat , in 1844 it had risen to 61. 8..,
and in stamps the oast of collecting had risen between thou
two years from 21. le. 7d. to 21. Bs. 4d. per cent. He could
not make any accurate comparison as to the increase in the
per cent'se of the assessed taxes, because the impontim of
the property tax within the two periods would derange the
buds of the calculation. He now came to the com-
parison between 1841 and the present period. He assured
the noble lord he was not unthankful for small
mercies ; he rejoiced in any saving however small
bat at present he did not find that any had been effected.
In 1845 the house was promised distinctly by the then first
minister of the crown (Bir R. Peel) that it they consented to
the repeal of the glass and auction dudes, there would be •
considerahle saving follow in the costs of collecting the re.
venue. It was not often that the hottest had the benefit of a
clear categoriesl explanation of anything from the right hon.
baronet ; but on tuat particular occasion he did travel out of
his usual cones*, and, with regard to flint glass, he told them
that if the duty was taken off, the 57 per cent , which was
the cost of collection, would be saved. The duty collected
ipso flint gins was 61.0001., the cost of collection, therefore,
would have been 34,0001. a year, and 80,0001. a year was to
have been saved in the cost of collecting the auction duty.
Again, they were led to expect that great economy would re-
sult from reducing the number of artich s in tne tariff by
430, and the consequent saving of the labour of clerks and
collectors. On the two items, glass and auctions, they were
promised a saving of 84,0001. a year, whereas the whole re-
duction which had taken place did not a count to that sum.
In 1844 the total amount of salaries and superannuation.
was 2.288.0001.; end in 1818 9 the two together amounted
to 2,205,0001. ; the total saving being 83,0001., or a fraction
less than what they had been promised by the right hon.
baronet as srisiog from the abolition of the duties on flint
glass and auctions. (Hear.) And this, notwithstanding
the less expensive mode of ratting tea s by substituting, to
a large :tent, direct for indirtct taxation, which had
been adopted. He thought he had now shown
that the government had not made out such a case of conti-
nued reduction is the charge on acriunt of these branches of
public expenditure as would justify the hew" in saying that
no useful revision of the salaries and ernoluntenu of these

- -
hear.)
_as should elan these observation without ear
lag thee he benne& En mows ked the good Intent to be
seamed by as abb. lallias ot sad seines body of
✓ang german, ma. abet he should be sorry
to my anythleg aeolosesep le *Op real or that was
not in strict ludo denaoded. ver, that
pubic establielemeate ought% be he a periodical
vides. He begged toeOM the Isassifas bodes :—" That
an bumble address be presealehte het Majesty, humbly to
regent that oho will be groneuly pleased to direct that a
einfel revision be made of the idolise and wages paid in
every department of the publneerriee, with a view to &just
and adequate redestisso 4M,044 dime regard being had to the
efficient perineum' of the sewn' duties."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
at a loss to undentsod the Meow which had induced the
km. member ise Oxfordshire to submit his motion on the
present emegelem The practice of economy had been urged
upon MIMI firmer motions ; sad if he felt that the present
govoramot bed been negligent of their duty in revising
all6ll6Nlknente, or that the pressing government
base4l orgligant on that subject, or that be could not
Ism fiat not only themselves but their prods-
igsses had been reducing expenditure, he should
set be indisposed to acquiesces ht the present motion.
But, when that course of revising public establishments had
been pursued for some time past, and when his noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) and himself had on a former occasion
stated that reductions to a large extent had been effected, he
brew sot what object or motive the hon. gentleman could
have In bringing forward this motion, except it was to con-
vey some censure on these who did not deserve it, or to
draw some conclusions which were not well founded.
(Hear, bear.) The bon. gentleman had raid that he was
ler a true and just economy. 8, were her Majesty's govern-
ment. But when the hon. gentleman proceeded further
with his speech, it was difficult to know what it
was he proposed to reduce. He had gone into a MUD.
bee of topics not much connected with the subject
before the house. For instance, when he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) came down to the house prepared to answer
kiln, he had not expected, and therefore he was not pre-
pared to hear, a loug argument on the declared and official
value of a variety of exported articles. (Haar, hear.) Ha-
berdashery had been alluded to. Haberdashery in farmer
times had represented needlework by the hand, but recently
much of it was manufactured by machinery, and thus • con-
siderable reduction in its price had been caused. When,
therefor:, the hon. gentleman inferred that bet (use of the
diminished value of the article, the price of needlework
must be reduced, he was arguing from premises
of which he appeared to be ignorant. Let the
house consider the consistency of his argument. He
had attempted to prove that all who earned their livelihood
by the needle were is distress, end he had made use of the
expression that " the throats of the tailors were cut by their
wives and daughters." He (the Chancellor of the Eiche-
r/me) had read the other day that the great cause of depres-
sion among the tailors was owing to the low price paid for
soldiers' clothing by the government. If this were so, then
if the government were to reduce the wages paid for needle.
work, they would still further depress the parties, and
aggravate that distress which the hon. gen, le-
son bad pointed out. (" Oh !" and "Hear ") But
the hon. gentleman seemed to blame his noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) for having on a former eight, stated that
many articles were not at this moment diminished. It was
perfectly true there were several items on which no diminu-
tion had taken place. No doubt the price of corn was re-
duced, but the price of potatoes was considerably higher
than they had been. He held in his hand an abstract of the
meet of maintenance of the inmates of the Marylebone work-
house ; and from this he learned that the cost of maintain-
ing an inmate in that house in 1849, as compared with
1843, had been considerably increased, food and me-
dical attendance included. (Hear, hear.) The average
Best in 1843 was 4s. Old., in 1949 it was 52. Oil;
and yet the price of corn was lower now than
It had been in 1813 Flour also was lower. The price of
dour was 34e. 71d. in 1e43 ; it was 32s 3d. in 1819. Po-
tatoes, in 1843, wire 545.; is 1849 they were 107 s. Gd., or
seemly double. The price of oatmeal had risen from lie.
Ils. 414. Therefore, the reduction talked of by the hon.
gentleman had not taken place in every item of consump-
tion; on the contrary, the increase which had taken place in
the price of green groceries had compensated, or nearly so,
for the reduction which had token place in the price of corn.
(Hear hear.) He stood in a peculiar and somewhat
painful position, as Chancellor of the Exchequer. In that
house he was told that the government did not
make reductions in the salaries of clerks and other offi-
cers. He wished he could transfer those who made that
charge to his room in Dawning-street, where they would
hear complaints continually made of the hardships caused
oy the reduction of salaries which had taken place. And
be must say that it not unfrequently happened that the par-
ties who reproached him in that house with extravagance
were the parties who blamed him for having Dwells 11 re t.
natty when they met him in his own office. (" lieu,
hear,' and a laugh.) But the government had not
been negligent even in reducing salaries. Nothing was
more common than when • vacancy occured which must be
tided up, to replace another man, giving him increased duties,
and reducing the salary. It would not be right or fair,
however, when the government were exacting additional
labour from a diminished number of hands, that they should
reduce their salaries. Oa the contrary, it would be most
cruel and unjust to force anything like • general reduction of
salaries under such circumstances. (Hear, hear.) The
government were bound to protect the parties from such in-
justice ; and he confessed that heshould feel regret if men of
this class were to have their eateries reduced by • vote of
that house while the extent of their labour had been in.
creased. (liter.) Tint hon. gentleman seemed to have
omitted from his view those higher salaries of public
servants, which had formed the subject of debate'
on a former occasion. He (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) agreed with what the hon. member for Buckingham.
shire had said on that eccesion, that all offices under the
control of the government it was the duty of the government
to econoiniee, but he did not believe the. the y ought by a
I per centsge to lower the salaries of public servants.
When vacancies occurred, it might be right to act upon that
principle, but it would be monstrous injustice to reduce the
salaries of those who bad, perhaps, been forty years in the
service, and who atter Laborious servitude had worked them-
selves up to the few prizes, and they were very sew in eed,
which public situations offered. Toe lower clues of clerks in
the public service were not paid even as w .11 as menial ser-
vants ; ano surely, under such circumstances, the House of
Commons would not ba so unmindfnl of that class of men
as to reduce their gaieties ? (Hear, hear ) With regard to
reduction of expenses in our establishment', he begged to be
allowed to point out what had been done in past)ears, and
be took years back, because he thought it would be unfair
not to do justice to those who had been making reductions
before the present government came into office. The go-
eernment had, from year to year and from day to day, been
almost perp-tually engaged in making reductions. la 1834
a return bad been moved by his hon. and gallant relative
(Colonel Sibtborp), end from that return he found that
the salaries of public officer, in 1815 amounted to
3,700,0001, and that in 1133. i they had been reduced to
2,700,0001. Let him refer to the treasury department more
particularly, fur then the house would see that, especially in
that description of offices which were heretofore co:soldered
as places for the exercise of the patronage of the minister,
considerable reductions had been made, to an extent of
which hen. members might not be aware. Excluding the
lowest class of clerks in the treasury, there were, in the
year 1821, 39 persona receiving salaries of 42,960/. a year.
At present, in the same department, there were
29 persons whom united salaries amounted to
24.6801., being a reduction in 30 years of
nearly 18,0001. (Hear, hear.) In 1821 there were three
several bards of customs, and twenty-one ccosmissioners
who had 26,500 . a year. Now there were only sight com-
missioners, worse salaries amounted to 10,9001. In the
board of inland revenue, as it was now called, there were iu
1821 forty-one commissioners assessing 43.3001. a year;

departments could be made. There was another branch of
expenditure which be thought might fairly be considered.
No man, he cone ived, would say with regard to the various
paid commissions which were in existence, that if those com-
missions were new to be proposed for the first time the suee
amount of salary would in all cues attach to them. (Hear,
hear.) He recollected that some six or seven years ago
a commission was appointed for the management of eases of
lunacy, and that some discussion took place as to the amount
of salary which the commissioners should receive. Would
any man who took part in that discussion say now, if the
question were again raised, that there woult be any diffe.
fence of opinion as to fixing the minimum salary then pro-
posed 1 He knew not whether the noble lord considered
the ease of these commissioners to come within the terms of
his committee en public salaries, he di i not know but he
thought it one to which inquiry should be extended.
(Hear.) There was a body of commissioners attached
to the Court of Chancery, Masters in Lunacy he beiieved
they were called, whose duty it was to preside over in-
quiries as to unsoundness of mind; these gentlemen re-
ceived a salary of 2 00'1. each, but on what principle, seeing
that a county courts judge received only halfithat amount,
he could not conceive. (lieu, hear) In his opinion the
whole of this class of salaries ought to undergo revision.
(Hear, hear.) lie cams now to another branch of
the subject, in which, however, the noble lord (John
Russell) had, by the course he had himself taken, relieved
him in a great measure from the neces-ity of showing why
a revision should take piece. It was as necessary with nations
as with indiviluels that they shouldoecati lull, examine and
overhaul their affairs ; and the noble lore would not have apt
poiuted his official salaries committee if he had not felt that
there was something in the orcurnstantes of the present
time requir.ng some revision of those salaries. (Hear, hear.)
As to the policy of legislating to secure low prices he
would not now offer any opinion (hear, hear) and
no &doubt the reduction which had taken place in
the price of many articles had been in consequence of
the operation of circumstances over which we had no
control. Within the last twenty years we had snide
considerable reductions in the interest of the public
debt—this proved that the rats of interest had diminished.
The difficulty of obtaining the means of subsistence by per-
sons of small or moderate capital might be judged of from
the extent to which emigration was proceeding, for it must
be remembered that people would not generally leave their
own country willingly while they were able to get a living
in it, and it was the pressure of circumstances which drove
them from their native home, to a foreign country. The
number of emigrant., which in 1028 was 26,000,
had risen in 1848 to 248,600. This fact alone
proved how severe must be the pressure upon the people.
Nor was the increase confined to the labouring class, but it
extended to these who possessed capital, and were in the
habit of giving employment to labour, as might be gathered
from a comparison of the number of cabin passengers in the
two years he had mentioned. In 1828, the number of emi-
grants who bad taken a cabin passage had been 4,829, but
in 1848 it had risen to 11,500. Again, let them look to the
criminal returns. He took those of 1848, those of 1849
not having yet been published, and he found that in 1831
the number of criminals had been 19,600, and in 1818 they
had increased to 30,610. No doubt there had been a con-
siderable increase in the population between the two years,
but the increase in the population bore no comparison to the
increa-e in the number of criminals. (Hear, bear.)
lie now came to the question of prices, and taking
the official returns of the declared and official values
of the four great branches of exports, cotton, woollen,
silk, and linen for the year 1828, and comparing
them with the returns of 1848, he found a considerable de-
crease in the price of ell those articles in the latter year. It
was the same with haberdashery and millinery, end in all
the products of the needle the competition had lowered
prices to a ruinous extent. Tile pressure upon the
artisans had compelled their wives and daughters to resort
to the needle as a means of eking out a scanty subsistence.
According to the Registrar-General's abstract, there wen,
in the year 1841, in round numbers, 4-'B,OOO persons em-
ployed in the four staple branches, and there were 482,000
persons employed as shoemakers, dressmakers, milliners,
stsymakers, and tailors. Therefore, the shoemakers and the
other trades here mentioned nearly amounted to the number
of parties employed in the four great branches, and when the
house recollected that a great number of children were em-
pleyed at the needle, it must be evident that the unfortunate
trades in question constituted a large portion of the people.
(Hear) But, now, he wished to call attention to those
articles as they appeared in the table of exports, He found
that, in 1828, the declared value throughout exceeded the
official value. In 1828, the declared value was ten times
more than the official value. In 1838.39 it was something
the same. In 1843.44 it had cot much altered ; it bad not
, perceptibly advanced. In 1848.49 it had altered in this re-
' makable degree, that, whereas in the former case the
dielered value ass ten times the quantity marked by the
said value, it bad only doubled in 1848.49. Therefore
the depreciation in this particular clue of goods, between
the periods of 1828 and 1848, had been very considerable.
(Hear, hear.) He knew not to what extent these tables
were to be taken as a guide, built appeared that there must
have been 1131110 cause at work during the last four years to
affect those branches of trade in so remarkable
• degree. (Hear, hear) Now, he bad already
anti ned that the noble lord (J. Russell) stated the other
sight that, in the detailed amount he had obtained of the
various matter. cf inco ne, he could find only two or three
Geddes in which there had been any material diminution.
He (Mr. Henley) had been making some inquiry—because
dim were matters which could only be gut from private
asurses—and he found that a diminution had taken place in
a Nag list of articles. Beef and mutton, for instance, be-
tween 1829 and 1819, had been depreciated perhaps
17 per cent. ; at the present time the depreciation was 24 per
ant. Bread had been depreciated 20 per cent. In
groceries, on 62 articles, the diminution was 25 per
sent. Hay, straw, and corn were diminished 20
per cent. Furniture and ironmongery had diminished
20 percent. and linen 16 per cent. He was now speaking
of are. retail prices of these articles. Cotton had diminished
30 per cent. ; woollens, 20 per cent. ; hosiery, 25 per cent. ;
fuel, 25 per cent. ; and beer, 20 per cent. It
wee difficult to say what the per untege of dimi-
nution in locoutoti-in had been. But, looking at the
articles he had enumerated, he could not assent to
the statement of the noble lord that there had
been only one or two articles in which a mate-
rial dinsiuwion hail taken place. It was no egrets-
able or pleasant task for anybody to talk of reductions,
bet standing as he did there ea an independent member,
and a trustee for the public, having formed a strong opinion
on this matter, he could not avoid bringing it before
the notice of the house. (Cheers.) Whether he might he
suceessful or nut he could not tell, but of this he was certain,
that it what he had stated was well founded, it was of such
importance i-e an economic point of view that it must force
itself oa public attention. If, on the other hand, he had
taken a mistaken view, he had at all events done his ditty its
bringing the matter fairly, sod, he hoped temperately, be-
iges the how for cousidsrati4Q and discussion. (Rear,

1,604

,
and at piesent there were only eight coracni.stoners.witli
salaries of 11,2001. a year. In the revenue department
altogether there had been seventy-fire superior offic.n
whose united salaries came to 60,2801., hut the
government had pared down these establishments
very considerably. Even within the last few years,
in the salary payable at the treasury in 1849, as compared
with 1847, there had been a reduction el 6,0001. a year. The
government, therefore, had not been unmindful of that eco-
nomy which the house was so anxious to see carried into
effect. (Hear. hear.) Since the year 1833 various consoli-
dations had taken place, as his noble friend (Lord J. Emotell)
had intimated the other night. Reductions of establish-
ments had been made—these reductions in number of
persons employed being 2,000, and the expense being
diminished by nearly a quarter of a mil:ion ster-
ling. (Hear, hear.) In the revenue department, a
reduction of 66,0001. a year had been made, in compliance
with the recommendations of the first report suhmitt. d to
the house, sad a further reduction was recommend. d in the
second report of 7,0001 ; but it was necessary, in making
these large reductioi a, to look at the security of the r,vi nue,
aryl to take ears teat no real ground of complaint, upon the
score of inefficient service, was given merchants is
the carrying on of their trade. (Hear, bear.)
By the consolidation under one head in the Pity office,
a saving in salaries had been effected to the extent of 16,0001.
a year. The charge for the collection of the public retinue
had also been diminished, although it did not always follow
that a reduction in the amount of revenue by a retiuction of
tales, caused a corresponding diminution in the charge for
collection, because the same machinery was kept up, and the
same process gone through for a small as for a large revenue.
Notwithstanding that a considerable reduction had taken
place in the charge for collection. Comparing
the year ending the sth day of January, 1848,
with the year ending 6th January, 1860, the charge in the
first year 1847 for collecting the customs was 61. 19, 6d. per
cent., and in 1849, 61. 168.94 d. per cent. For cullec.ing we
excise there had been a reduction from 61 7e. W. to
61. 13s. 6).1., being a reduction of upwards of 14s. per cent.
is two years. The charge for coll. cting the stamps wet re
duced from 21. Is. 34d. to 21. Os. 74d. ; and that for the
taxes from 31. Go. 64d. to 31. 68. N It shou.d he borne in
mind that these reductions between 1847 and 1849 had Welt
effected in the face of a coesiderahly increased amount
of business in the various departments of government. The
right hon. gentleman then proceeded to chow that private
eotabliahments, whore the interests involved were more
concerned were not card. don with more economy
than the affair" of government. He found that the salaries
of all descriptions paid by the Bank of England amounted to
211,0001., whereas the whole of the salaries at the govern-
ment, including the Treasury, the Home-office, the Foreign-
office, the Colonial-office, the Council-office, the 11 iard of
Trade, end the department of education, amounted to only
238,1.8;01., showing 'hat all the great offices of the ioulitry
cues tolls about 20,0001. more than a &nigh ptiv.it coh.ldish.
went. But beside that, there were only about 6 or 8 P. None
(exclusive of the solicitors, who were paid Sc.'rdii g to
amount of services) whose salaries amounted to 2,0001. And
yet, looking at the list India Company they found a iftratary
with 2,4001. a year, several officers wigs 2,0001., mei

~~~ ._.

1 ~_`._l.

-
• nation, he (Sir B. Peel) readily voted for the motion
of right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
ellagner, which implied that the sense of the house should
not be taken on the motion of the hon. member for
Oxfordshire. (Hear, hear.)
Mt. COBDEN (whose opening obeervatione were not
audible in the gallery) said he shoula oppose the motion of
the hon. member for Oxfordshire, because it contemplated a
general reduction of salaries as well as of wages. If he
accepted it as contemplating a redaction of wages, then he
(Mr. Cobden) was brought in that house into actual hostility
and contact with the general reduction of wages throughout
the country; for it certainly would be regarded as a war
upon wages. (" Hear, hear," from the protectionist
benches.) When he referred to wages he meant the pay or
emolument of the men who were employed weekly and ',aid
for their labour. (Hear, hear.) Now, he (Mr. Cobden)
objected to soy reduction of wages by a vote of that house,
because it would be impracticable, and being so, could
be regarded as nothing better than nonsense. (Hear,
hear.) He also objected to the attempt then
made to reduce salaries or wages, because he
was opposed to the way in which the question had been
urged by hon. gentlemen on the opposite side of toe house.
(Hear, hear.) It had been laid by hon. gentlemen opposite
that since 1828 and 182'J there had been a reduction in the
prices of articles of consumption—such as meat, flour, iron,
and woollens, of from twenty to twenty-five per cent. ; and
they then argued from that that there should be a propor-
tionate reduction in the amount of salaries and wages.
(" Hear, hear," from the protectionist benches.) Now he
did not see the necessary consequence of these premises.
(Hear, hear.) There might be a reduction in the price of
commodities because of the improvements and novel inven-
tions brought into operation in the production of thee, arti-
cles. (Hear.) Iron was cheaper at present, by reason of these
improvements and inventions which economised the means
of production. (Hear, hear.) There also had been
improvements in the mode of producing corn and cattle.
—(laughter cad " hear, bear.")—and conseTiently they
were cheaper at present than at the period referred to.
(Hear, hear.) A great amount of drainage had been at-
comolisbed, and guano had been brought into general use ;
and basing attained these discoveries in science and in the
mode of production, he a.kei why should not the working
classes, as well as the other clams in society, share in the
benefit of them. (W ar, hear.) The hon. gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. Henley, se we understood) had spoken as though
every class in the community, as well as the hard-working
class, had cohered a diminution in their incomes. I Prot. c-
tionist cries of " hear, hear.") lie denied that. (!tear, hear.)
He denied that rents had been reduced—that there bed been
a general reduction of tkem—(hear, bear) ; at least,
there bad been no reduction in the north of Eng-
land, and he did not anticipate any. (Herr, hear.)
Now, as to a reduction in the price of commodities leading
to a reduction of wages, he maintained the tendency was
quite the other way. (lieu, hear.) He would take the
manufacturing operatives of the country as an instance, and
assert that Outing the very process that hon. gentlemen op-
posite were complaining or, the reduction in the cost of
living there had b.en a tendency to advance the wages of
thine engaged in such pursuits. (Hear, hear.) They heard
a great deal in the way of complaints about the distress of
the stocking weavers, lace makers, and similar branches in
the midland counties. But what was the fact ? Why, that
there had been striki a repeatedly, and consequent advance
of wages to an amount that had not teen keown
for fifty years previously. (Hear, hear.) How, there-
fore, could honourable gentlemen come leeward and
say the country was in such a distressed state that
the salaries of the government clerks and officials should
be reduced ? (Hear, heir.) They might as well tell him
that the wages of the egriculturirts had been or should be
reduced. (Protectienist cries of "Hear, bear.") They
had heretofore been reduced to that state in which the re-
ward of labour was measured by the n.eans of subsistence.
( Hear, hear.) They had been reduced to what he (Mr.
Cobden) should term the slavery state of wages, (Hear,
hear.) The state of things in the a:ricultural districts
heretofore was such that the labourer employed received
only an amindit of wages which, when converted into food,
had been merely sufficient for the sustenance of himself
and family. (Hear, hear.) When the price of food rose
his wag. s were lIICYMC,i, to enable him to get food ; and,
when the price of food fell, his wages were reduced to
the level that procured him merely the came amount
of food. (lieu, hear.) In the agricultural districts he
maintained, notwith,taaling that there might have been
some reductions in money wares, that tee labourer was
better off since food hat been reduced to a more moderate
prise than in the year 1817, the boasted year of prosperity. He
bad in his possession a pamphlet= the subject, whicn enume-
rated some 13000 government clerks, bat of which number
only 8,000 had salaries of 1002. a year. (Hear) Now was
it proposed by the resolution of the kon. member for Ozfard-
shire that the whoie of these clerks should have their sala-
ries reduced ? ( Hear, heal.) He protested against such, as
it would be a most unjust and unbusinesslike conclusion to
arrive at, and also as it would be totally impoisi Ole to effect
it. I Hear, hear.) He joined in the expreetira of opinion
of several hon. gentlemen that in the use of a large propor-
tion of the servants of government, the nisei s erre not
high. (Hear, hear.) He ji.ined in the opinion expressed
that it would be better to diminish the number of servants
than to reduce the Wake of those holding places. (Hear.)
The hon. gentleman who introduced the motion, as well as
others on his side of the house, who followed
him, went out of their way to am& him (Mr.
Cobden) for hieing said that the best way to
reduce the expecte, of the country was by a reduction of
the armament ; and they then went on to give en exagge-
rated statement of what he had really sold, as though he had
stated that no reduction should be made except io the army.
(Hear, bear) What he (Mr. Cobden) really did say was,
that they cJiall make no material reduction utiles, telt t
touched that great item, the military establishment. (Hear,
hear.) And he wished to know what was the r.sul: of the
reducions that had been made since the period when he
made that assertion ? (Hear, hear.) In 1549 and 1849 Le

from. .4. and 1,0001. The seceetairies e 1 Many of
sear tea; and dock ermipeades had salaries as high as
2,00 W, and 001111111inee emending that amount. Benere he
wee late the house he had received a document giillag an
asiniat of • *death establishment in Landon—a brewery.
It stated that the solarise of the establishment is 1846
alootusted to 9,6061., and that in 1849 the sane porous were
10,9491.,
which, so far from a reduction, showed an
of 1,3441. within throe year.. By a voluminous M-
imi he ascertained that the number of parsons employed
by the government in France was 236,000, whereas the num.
her in this coustry was somewhere emit 60,000. In fact
he believed there wee no country in the world where the
public smite was carried on by so small a number of officials
and at so small an expense as this country. It was hie perfect
conviction that the permanent servants of the public in this
country were by no means en overpaid body of men. They
were sometimes induced to leave the public 'mice and go
into private establishments, becalms they could get higher
salutes there, ,and of course the government mild
not prevent it. The best plan, depend on it, was to
obtain good services at an adequate salary. While
be did not wish to negative the principle of the hon.
gentleman by opposing his motion, he would ask the
house to adopt • course which would do away with the
censure it conveyed. He, therefore, moved the previous
question.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Cul. BIBTHORP refused to believe that any revision
of salaries had taken places under the auspices of the
frevernmeat, or to expect such a revision from the committee
lately appointed by the prime minister. The gallant mew
ber continued for some time to dilate upon the evils of free
trade and foreign competition.
' Mr. NEWDEGATE related the occasions when treasury
officials had petitioned fur an increase of salary on the plea
of the high prices of provisions. He inferred from these
precedents the propriety of again reducing the salaries now
that prices had fallen.
Mr. HUME said the inquiry of the committee moved for
by the noble lord at the head of the government on a former
evenieg was of a limited character, and by no means super-
seded the necessity for adopting the motion before the house,
which he believed would meet with the approbation of the
public, and which he therefore regretted had not ;been
adopted, instead of opposed by the government. He oleo
observed upon the enormous disproportion which the non.
effective bore to the effective service of the country, and
without denying the reductirm which had been made by the
government, or imputing any blame to them fur not doing
more, he thought it highly desirable that the motion should
be agreed to by the house.
Mr. ROEBUCK, approving of the idea of a scrutiny,
believed that the result would be to show that the working
staff of officials who lid the business of the nation were die
gracefully underpaid. In the treasury the clerks begin at
901. a year, and by dint of labour, good conduct, and talent,
might si.e to 2001. by the time they were 33 years old; to 600/.
at 60; and if promoted into the highest class might receive
1,0001. per annum when 59. The country had a right to
have the question settled, of which Lord J. Russell's motion
of the " previous question" was a mere evasion.
Sir R. PEEL said that he agreed with so much of what
bad been said by the hon. and learned gentleman, particu-
larly with regard to the a, role. of those who occupied subor-
dinate places in the chief departments of the sta'e,
and the obligations due to them from the public
for the real, integrity, and ability with which
they discharged their duties—(hear, hear) —that he
felt hound to explain the reason why he had come to a con-
clusion at variance with that to which the hon. and learned
geatli man had arrived. Tho reason was that he put a
different construction on the motion and a different con-
struction on the effect of the amendment, by which it was
met, namely the previous question, from the hon. and learned
gentleman. He did not understand the hon. gentleman to
move for a parliamentary inquiry into these departments.
(Hear, hear.) A parliamentary inquiry has been already in-
stituted with respect to all the chief officers of the state—the
diplomatic departments, the judicial departments, and with
neer et to the salaries of all the chief officers of the state who
held seats in parliament. But the object of the resolution of
the hon. member for Oxfordshire was not, he apprehended,
parliamentary inquiry, but to impose on the government
the fulfilment of the duty sought to be enjoined un them by
the motion of the hon. member for Buckinghamshire—
namely, that the government should he the parties
to undertake the revision, and that they should then
submit their scheme of reduction, if reduction they
considered advisable, to the house. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. and learned gentleman said the motion was a
truism, and should therefore be acquiesced in. He (Sir R.
Peel) did not agree in that doctrine. 'there were many
truisms moved in that house which he did not think should
be acquiesced in, because if every motion was to be usented
to becaure it was a truism, then the entire time of that house
would be occupied in considering trui,me. (Hear, hear.)
Let not the house of Commons, therefore, assent to truisms
unless they had :a practical bearing. (Hear.) The hon.
and learned gentleman admitted that he did not think any
great reductions could be made in the salaries of those en-
gaged in the public service, and particularly with regard to
that class of officers whom the hon. gentleman did nut con-
sider to ba sufficiently, or more than sufficiently remu-
nerated. It was because he (Sir R. Peel) agreed with the
hon. and learned gentleman in that view, that he c ruld not
countenance the delusion that the granting of an
inquiry would give rite to, and when are voted
for the previous quettion, he did not mean to
negative or to pus pone inquiry. (Hear, hear.)
If inquiry was necessary let it I.e made by the authority
which was fit to conduct it, namely, the executive govern-
ment. In voting for the previous question, he only meant
to affirm that es this resolution could only lead to Gimp
pointment, nail to no practical result, he could not acquiesce
in it. He did not mean to imply in voting for the previous
question that this was not the time when revision ought ;
to take plece, and when reduction ought to be made in
every department of the state where it was possible. (Hear.)
But the hon. gentleman referred to a speech made by him
(Sir It. Peel) in 1845, with respect to which he Lit the house
under an erroneous impression. In that sp. ech, as well as
he recollected it, he did not lay down the position that unless
they reduced their military establishments ti ere could be no •
reduction in the public expenditure. What he said was that
the expenditure of 1815 was 48,000,0001., and that "
there was a general impression on the part of
the public that there was an opportunity of mak-
ing great reductions But it was an erroneous impres-
sion if it was supposed that he said the whole of that
48,000,0001. admitted of reduction, for they must deduct
from that sum the whole amount of the public debt, the civil
list, the cost of their military and naval establishments.
Making a deduction of 33,000,0001. on account of
these claims, which could not be reduced by
the executive government, there remained only
13,000,0001. as the area on which economy could be
practised, including tha great military establishments, and
he added that it would be countenancing an erroneous
expectation, if the public were led to entertain an opinion
that any great reduction could be made in the civil establish-
ments. (Hear) The hon. gentleman referred to the
reduction of the excise duties. p irticulorly the abolition of
the glees and auction duties, and lett the house under the
impression that be held out expectations wnich were not
fulfilled. He did nit think that was the case. (Hear.)
He said that one recommendation for the abolition of the
auction and glass duties was, Viet beyond the mere relief
from the duties, there was •he reduction of the excise esta-
blishments which would follow from the abolition of these
duties. Well, in the following year, 1846, it appeared that
450 persons who held excise offices were reduced, and the
amount of saving, in point of salaries, was 62,0001. ; so that
the expectations he held out were entirely tulfilled. (Hear.)
If there had been any increase in other departments, that
did not warrant the hon. gentleman in interring that the
expirations which he held out from the reduc'ion of these
duties had not been fulfilled. (Hear, hear.) He must say
that the reduction of so great • number of etheres also proved
that the imputation that the government wished to maintain
these Aim for the purpose of patronage was wholly
groundless. (Hear, hear.) It would be as unjust to say
that tae army was meintmaed for the purpose of finding
commissions for the eons of the aristocracy, as that the
government sanctioned great civil establishments for the
*eke et patronage. (Hear, hear.) He had been for
several years First Lord of the Treasury, and he could say
for himself, and he believed every other First Lord of
the Treasury could say the same, that if for no other reason
yet for toe relief from the burden which the possession of
patronage entailed, he should wish to see it as limited as
possible. (Hear, bear.) He would vote 1... r the previous
question, because he had experience in the/ft matters, be-
cause he thought that the question of reduction was best
left in the bands of the government, who had given idea
that they were anxious for reduction and retrenchment,
a,d that they desired to continue in that path. (II ar, hear.)
The rule with regard to pars ins in subordinate government
employment was not diminished pay, but it was increased
work at any rate. (Hear, hear.) If he cemented the num-
ber of papers recorded now with what it was ten or twenty
years ago, the duty now would at least be found to be double.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman said thee there parsons
were not required to do duty by night. He believed that the
noble lord the &remarry of State for Foreign Affairs would
confirm him in the statement that the oases engaged in that
department considered their services to be at the diep oat of '
'heir superiors by night as well as by day. (Hear,
hear.) These gentlemen entered upon their duties at
salary commencing at 901, which was perfectly insufficient
to meet their expenses—(hear, hear)—and they remained at
this salary for two or Sneer years. (Hear, hear.) After
game length of service they received 200/. a year. (Hear,
hear.) But it was not the amount et labour that these
trustpereu persons
whichhad was reposedtoperft.. rmwihn almostiehshould
lair
of
te
th men.considered,
bat
(Rear,
hear.) hear.) No secretary of state, no firs: lord of the treasury,
could go through his duty without entrusting secrets
of state to men havii.g only 40111. a year. And
could they g've hint an bedew* in which this
confidence had been violated. (Hear, hear 1 It was not,
therefore, the amount of labour alone which was to be re-
garded, but the extent of the honourable confidence which
was to leo reposed in these parsons ; and nothieg could be
more miact.ievaus for the public service that to reduce the
emoluments of these subordinate officers to such sit extent as
would make them umemable by men who might not, per-
hops, have the means, hut who had the feelings and honour
of gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) He had an experience of 40
years in the various otti:es of the state, and he felt bound on
this occasion to give his testimony to the scrupulous fidelity
and the great ability displayed by those. prisons who
fitted the subordinate poste. (Loud cheers.) The
reductions ought to commence with those who held
the highest offices: and in saying. so he would take that
opportunity of spres.ing his opinion on that point, whirl.
was t those who li led the highest officio diet not recez.ve
an enemy. of remoneraton in the slightest degree greater
. than that to whic't they ware entitled, not alone 'ay the
onerotte duties that devolved upon the in, but wnich the
ieaereds of the public likewise attached to those (low
(Hear, hear.) } et ling that opinion, and believing all
that those who filled the subaltern aloe were entitled to

expenses for the military, including ihe Kaffir war, amounted
to 18,700,0001. whilst at present the whole of their
estimates amounted only to 14,300,0001. (Hear, h.ar
So that, so far from being wrong, he found tte
whole expenses of army, navy, and ordnance had beet
consideraoly reduced. (Hear, hear.) He thought the hon.
gentleman also went out of his way in entering into a de-
fence of the military establishment, which did not at a.:
belong to his motion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman
had stated that 6,500,0001. was :he amount that would l
required for the effective service; but iffevive and non-
effecive it amounted, as he (Mr. Cobden) bed already
stated, to 14,3:0,0001. (Hear, hear.) Ani, indeed, he
might say that the time had come when they ought t)
deal with the effective and non-effective, with the els:,
list as well as with the military, not by stopping the pen-
sions of those who at present held them, but by stopping
them when the existing recipients should die i ff. (Hear.
hear.) Indeed, looking at the system of pensions
and superannuation, he did not sets how they could
act otherwise. He (Mr. Cobden) opposed the motion
of the honourable member for OxforclAire, because
be objected that the humble salaries of humb:o
but deserving individuals should be reduced. (Heir,
hear.) He also opposed the motion because of the
reasons urged for that reduction, and became he
would not have a blemish can upon the prin-
ciples of tree trade. (Hear, bear) He (Mr. Cobden)
would not be a party to make it appear that this country
was less able now, fattier the provisions of free trade to pay
their servants than heretofore, under the system of protec-
tion—(chews)—or that in consequence of the operation of
tree trade these servants were to be paid leis. and that the
people of all classes had not a right to the benefits COW@
quint on free trade operations—therefore he (Mr. Cobden)
should vote ageinst the motion. (Cheers )
Mr. H. DKUMMOND quoted from a speech delivered on
the first née ht of the session the assertion that ninny millions
had been saved through free trade, and demanded to have a
per coinage of that savius returned to the: country by a te-
duction of official salaries. He suspected the utility of com-
mittees and commissions, and taunted the ministry with
employing the appointments thus opened by way of bribe to
the economists. The reason why, sot the number art persons
but the amount of salaries, was the object of the motion was
that there had been a u.iiversal depression of prices, the
result, not of a casual state in things, but of a system.
.

Mr. Wt)O1) said, the motion had been improved from the
tough draft of last year, yet, looking at it wi:h the ominous
addition of " wages," he saw at clump what was to go torth
to the world If the motion was agreed to. He believed that
the government were makicg revisions and reduction' ; and,
therefore, by adopting the motion he should, one one hand
pass an undeserved c. notice upon the government, and, on.
the other, hilt the people that, in consequence of tree trade.
wages thrantrhout th• country were to be reduced.
Mr. DISRAELI said that so far as an opinion could be
formed Irom what had been done. either in that or the pre-
ceding session, or from what reached Him from am. mblies
in the community, it seemed to be agreed on all hands that
the pressure of taxation was excessive. (Hear. hear.)
They had tor a considerab:e number of years been reducing
all that class of taxation which pressed most grtev.•uely o•.t
the springs of industry. For a number of years milli,.e attar
million was Wien from the alanilders of that chos with
which the hon. member for the West Riding was perticularly
connected. (Hear, hear.) Nearly nine millions art taxa-
tion were remitted ; the object of that remb.sion be'itt to
make life more easy and the necessary burden of t nation
more light. The hon. gentleman and his friends form. rly
said, " Hepeal the corn law,, And we can beat the world
the corn laws were repealed, but the burden had not yet
vanished. (Laughter.) The bun. gentleman and his triends
liming up to that bight been apparently proud art being the
heralds of wile. was called " the new movement," which
wee to have reduced the expenditure and taxotion of the
country, appeared to act on that occasion as it any were
themsi Ives Chancellors of the Exchequer—(lineriterl—as if
it were their business to paint in rosy hues the pr.siiering
fortunes of a tiourishing community. (L ingh,er.) rhe
agricultural classes' finding their means don ~,,, ntd, and the
burden of taxation more grievous, naturally rough•. a legit-
' iAt IVO source et rebel. Now, what was the s .ur..e of relief
to b t lt they wished to diminish the cap n.li use of the
countO, the lint thought was naturally to reduce ,si•ation.
Accordingly hon. members on that side had proposed
or soppnrteil ineatopr, which had the, tendency. T... y lied
thus subjected themselves to imputations free man) hon.
gentlemen, and even tram SOW persons so dis'.tngut•lted rs
to sit on the treasury bench. He should no, then t 0 tea
assitlUtitie'd statements which, being mad • in looted
fit ylioqlo, and at a late hour of the night, were • x u‘oh'e—
(laughter)—hut really when the noble lord, they
(the protectionist m mb. rip bed given a vote r two the
object of which was to effect some remission art tax ition,
charged them with intending to break faith with •' e pelt is
creditor, and to distill the pecuniary ohligs i ot the
country, he made a charge which was little au bonged-7
certainly nut authorised by Any facts to which lb. n ble
could refer—purely imaginary, and not at all just tie.t by the
vote on the subject of the window tax. (Il or, Ite..r 1 hiel
hail given nn votes for the remission of 'Asa ion a :nth were
net authorised by the elate of t he public tlitsectv.—(hear,

—_
lent, and, on. ' bet
ot tree trade. the in
!ed. slate
Lion could be
lord t
.t or the pre- that c
,m awn mblies Let la
II hands that '-: time a
Hear, hew.) . (Heat
tech reducing
. Place
rarlev,usly tr./ polite
a million att ~r Well!'
it C 6.1 with Straw
ar, particularly
inflate
dons ot taxa-
Lot
non brim to
*Mee
i ot taxation house
ends forma rly addre
t the world :" reeial
a hail not yet seven
end his friends
to th
101 being the
!meat." which inch
Whet
axoioat of the
I it tta. y were eveni
ugraterl—as if *a HI,
the pr. layering of at
itehaer.) rho amou
betnd, and the Pon,
lake",
sough.. a teals- tiro,
',arca. of relief that i
n•".. ure of the
educe ~action. very
ploye
had propoted
jeeter
cy. T.a.y had
C4ll
,tek man) hon. with
icangut.lied is with
o, then a 0 led
in ti,
I, in tuote,l file..
ere • • u‘ah'e— point
rt, b. CAW.' they
liana,
ote . r two tho that
on of tax anon,
ex'ea
with • a e puh'id
1414je
digs i In, ot the
thou,
le no honied—
meat
h tin n -ale tofu
Stela
jun tieb by the
Mehl
r, lir..r I .1.11.1 Matti
ion ahiett wi-re
/biro
Inlet:m-OW, the (