The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-02-14 00:00:00

tiles o.

and the interfer

kid) would probably
-2- • .2 2.

won a, in the opinion of the directors,
lead to differences and collisions between him and the officers and
',Tants- of the company. The directors, therefore, decline to
•tch access to the Borough Engineer.

grant a

3f the gas, thechrt ctors would remind the
paratus, on the most improved principle, was
fed up by Dlr. King, in the borough engineer's
rpose of enabling him to test the gas at all
With regard to proposal `• c,"

ks.regards the
lncil that an

isent to the appointment of officers, re -
to test, examine, and adjust the meters

iready signified their willingness that a public
inspector of meters shou'd be apnointed : and, it the c mncil have
matured any plan, having this object in vie*, the 'directors are
prepared to give it their best consideration.

With regaitl to proposal "d,"

"That the powers of the auditor be extended so as to enable him
to have access to all documents and accounts which he may think
necessary to enable him to report fully on the financiai position of
the company, and to •scertain that all moneys are paid out of and
carried to the credit or the proper accounts."
The duties of the auditor, or accountant, are defined by a general
act, having r .ference to all gas corn 'anies, and the directors do not
consider that they have aay power to extend such duties ; and they
would observe that on no occasion has any complaint been mare by
the gen, Inman appointed to examine the tired accounts of the com-
pany, that any information was withheld which was necessary to
enable them to discharge their duties fully and satisfactory, acc
ing to the act of Parliament. —We are, dear sir, yours, very truly,
THOMAS CARSON, 1 Secretaries.
JOHN B. LLOYD,
Wm. Shuttleworth, Esq., Town Clerk.

Upon this letter the committee recommended that the whole
subject be referred back to them to. report again to the council.
The committee also stated that the. company demanded £34
for the services of their officers, &c, engaged in the testing of
meters on the occasion of Mr. Taunton's inspection.
Mr. Kitchen moved the confirmation of the proceedings.
He said he should not have made any remarks upon the
subject had he not been informed, since he came into the
room, that an amendment was about to be proposed limiting
the committee to the appointment of a meter inspector. With
reference to that amendment, he could only say that the
appointment of an inspector would be quite useless unless
conditions were agreed to by the company which would make
that appointment beneficial to the consumers. The
committee, therefore, asked to have the whole subject referred
back until they had sitfficient time to take the company's reply
into consideration. That reply was received so late that there
was scarcely time to record it on the books previous to the last
meeting of the council. He might, however, now express his
regret at the remarks which a gentleman had made at the last
conncil, who hoped the committee would be careful how they
meddled with the rights of prOperty of the gas company. He
could himself •say the same. The committee had hitherto
been exceedingly careful how they infringed upon the rights of
the company, or did them the slightest injury, but he should
remind that gentleman that if property of that kind had: its
eights,.it also had its duties, and he put it to any gentleman
whether the proprietors and managers of the company had done
their duty to the gas consumers? He thought the evidence
given before the eotnu3ittee fully showed that there had been a
failing on their put. Had it not been so, he was quite cure
they never should have iwar,l the complaints which had bica
os
Jo
the fullyto w
ns nb
clerk,s tciaoi ;ft:
astpipreoin appointing a e
f7,-nti
ht.
et t3therSore coi,sidered that in
make the enquiries the council had
done their du:y, aud, so far as he was e"
whole of the proceedingscotuno telil 'wl''e referred ..biacke felthe
committee, with the assistance
theyle had had very little during the
orwttihile,iey would be in a position to report to
course of the in
the next meeting
aursued with reference to Council
on
the
proper course to be
hat it he referred back.
the question. Hu accordingly moved
Mr. Bradley seconded the motion.
Mr: Alderman Parker contended that the
had been manly, straightforward, and hon honest Hennas
g's
-If a.shareholder, but
do was for
idntberesit of the
h he lOntended would not bu serve
'demon who Caine there and acted ?rhot Ipeatr •
strings were pulled in other places. (Rear,
the idea of taking the management of
hands of the Ras company to give it
were to be appointed
;1, and three by the
against the cons_.
tt organised cona-
,rtain soprepos-

wh

heitt.) He riC
their affairs ou'

into the hands o
by the consuni

dy, of whom thro
hree by the coin

company, being, in
pany' 8 three. II(
pany under an ac
terous, ridiculou
that the whole b

it of fact, six v
aid like to know

and absurd a proposition. He declared
,übble had fairly burst, and that the labours of
he gas committee should now come to an end.
Mr. Alderman Bennett agreed with Mr. Parker in thinking
he reply of the gas company exceedingly straightforward, and
uch 'as might have been expected. ' Ho recapitulated the
-lade to the company, and declared his belief that
gentleman in the room must have felt
at them as the reply of the

cvciy impartial

as much surprise

•
Mr. Kitchen : Precisely so.
Mr.' Hodson said, if the committee did not Weal to op it
up the whole question ,he wauld support their resolution, but
he contended that it would be a complete waste of time upon
the part of the council to go into the general question again.
(Hear, hear.).
Mr. Brancker did not -see why, after the answer of the
chairman of the committee, dim should be any division
at all.

Mr. Shiel reviewed the several responsibilities which were
fixed upon the gas company by the act of parliament, and
asked what security th. council at present had that they were
fulfilled ? What security had they for the quality.of the gas ?
What security had they that the management of the .campany
was carried on in the best possible way, so that gas should be
produced of the quality he had described, should be distri-
buted in the honest way ha had described, and that the public
should be secured the benefit of whatever profit the company
might have after paying their dividend of ten per cent ? He
contended that upon these points they had no security at all.
The auditor himself stated, before the committee, that the
accounts submitted to him did not sufficiently enable him to
give an opinion as to whether the affairs of the company were
carried ont in the most efficient and economical manner. He
contended that the company was bound to give sufficient
security upon these paints to satisfy any practical man of
business. Mr. Bennett had indulged in a great deal of a
beautiful figure of speech called "clap-trap." (Hear, hear.)
He read out for them at the last council a number of names,
and asked if any of those individuals could be inspected by
any of the public. He (Mr. Sheil) contended that such
argument as that was mere clap-trap. They all knew that
gentlemen, .or persons called gentlemen, were sometimes
guilty of things which they ought to he very much ashamed
of. They all recollected the case recently, in which persons
holding the rank of gentlemen, bankers, were convicted of
felony. The head of that firm was not only a respectable
man, but a religious man---(laughter)—and not only religious
as regarded taking care of his own reiigion, but also very much
disposed to take care of the religion of his neighbours, and
yet he stood a very fair chance of being sent to Botany Bay,
and at least would have to suffer a long imprisonment for
cheating his neighbours. (Hear, hear, and laughter ) Mr.
Bennett had also sLade some claptrap allusion to the town
dues enquiry, which he compared to the gas committee, but
the nerves of the council were not so weals as to be frightened
by such arguments from attending to their duties, and getting
that to which they were entitled, and they asked no more.
(Hear, hear.) • •
Mr. M‘Guffie expressed a wish to know with whom would
rest the appointment of inspector?
Mr. Hall said, ho felt somewhat in a difficulty upon the
same point' He saw no objection, however, to referring that
and any other minor points that were still open for investiga-
tion, back to the committee for their consideration. He
thought it was clue to the committee that they should'not be
extinguished at once, without consideration, and that it should
prorv•rlyrest with them to carry out the remainder.
Mr. Picton expressed a desire that the chairman of
the committee should tell the council hat Were the
powers or. instructions which the committee wished to have.
The whole matter had been reopened, and the council had
eery probably, been discussing matters which the committee
did not intend to take up again.

Mr. Robertson Gladstone said, the great object which the
committee had in view was to give full consideration to the
reply of the gas committee. As a member of that committee
he, for one, certainly would not consent to any measure which
.should tie up his hands in regard to the whole subject. The
gas company were deriving a very large interest for the money
they had invested, out of an estate which mainly belonged to
the public. 'Any pecuniary funds they bad themselves sub-
scribed were a mere drop of water in the bucket. The funds
had so far been supplied no doubt, the works and the staff, but
the real estate out of which the dividend was derived was
the „property of the public. He therefore said
that he, for one, would never consent to any
resolution being passed which would tie up his hands
from a full consideration of the merits which attach to the
whole subject. What could have been more injudicious ?
What could have been more calculated to create suspicion
in order that
than the fact that when the subcommittee had arrived at
a certain stage in their inquiry, the gas company on a mere
futile pretext withdrew their officers from the committee,
day that highly
the. public might not be able to receive the informatioh
they, who had no interest but the interest of
which it was their duty to obtain? Then that very
more objectionable by a circumstance which he could
injudicious act had been rendered, still
scarcely believe his ears when he heard it read—that the
gas company had made a charge for their officers and for
the expenses which they had incurred during the inquiry ? (Hear, hear.) Now, really if the company wanted to run

NORTHERN TIMES.-LIVERPOOL, 'THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 185

_ _--- - -
„mummy. expressed. He could, pot tell whether the Vice- .their heads-against a Walls whatstep-could they take )110Z13
President of the -floard of Trade had itistilltd his notions intocaldulaittd to place therriSelves iti a le* position before the
the niihd Of the gas committee, or: whether it Was from reading public ? £B4 odd for the attendariee of their officers and
over tlie proceedings of that body, that-Mr. Lowe had- imbibed other facilities—moderate enough as was _their char
his notions. as respected the Liverpool town dues, for as re-
ractera-afforded-for,the testing of the meters? 'Was it
j
.
garded the justice of the one and the justice of the other, there actuall true that. he had heard that amount read by the'
were so many points of similarity. between Ahem; that he was Town lerk ? Then he said it was highly diScreditahle to
afraid t'sereanust have been sOitie collusion between the corn- the cdnipatly• Gear, hear.) Had .
,ther adopted thecoursei which, so farsas he could form a judgment, they
mittee and the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. (Loud should have marked out for themselves in reference to
cheers, and laughter.) The plan proposed by the-committee . that inquiry ; had theyircome forward' and. said
Would !defeat, .he was going to say every principle of honesty, "Thepe is all • the information we possess ; all the in-
by appoiating a board, of whom. ix would be gas consumers formation it 'is possible for us to supply to you
Invites an interest in lessening the value of the property, and shall e' laid before yOU,"—such a course would have.
'only three who had any interest in keeping up the establish- disarmed any unfriendly feeling towards the company
Mont in a state of efficiency. The reply of the directors Was Hear,, hear.) But what did they do ? Just the very
,
so unanswerable, that he 'did not need 'e 'kV anything further revers. The inferende from their conduct. was this=
. theare a great thank things we do, which we ought
on it. As to the proposed recitietion, in the`price of gas. sup-
,, .. • n, not to do ; they are Such as yeti must know nothing at all
,polo that the three members '"who ,proposed tele to the 'sown abOut4-we have got the whip hand at present, and we
Council should be appointed. to the gas eoinpany's board to will knep-it. -It Is very true, the public is the milch cow
carry Out the principle they had themselves propounded, there we get our dividend from it; and, although you are th
could be little doubt, when there would be also three upon representatives of the public, yet we tell ---
that bard from the gas consumers out of. doors, what the that wo *lll not. gire y
.I • .
consequence would be. The directors of the con; an Owed the. eirinstances you hay, _.„, , rio..•
that they did not know the exact position in Which they stood been. tto Very cooducCof the gas company, and he did not
as regarded the present Mee a gas, since the last reduction, think, 1 therefore, that the committee ought to be
He-
.in their investigations in any. one respect.
as yet: He should tell the council that one of the prin.. He_ believed the • public' were of opinion they had
cipal , London companies was about raising the price not !gone half far enough, and that they
of its gas from 45., finding that they could not had not discharged "their duty to the full extent which
carry on the establishment at the present prices. As regarded
by they oug
the ht to have done, and he was surprised to hear
the third point recommended comfit:atm he argited any doe propose that their investigation should be limited.
that the borough engineer cOuld obtain the required informs- He declared that he for one would not consent to 'any
tion at present, as welt in different parts of the town, as in the resolution which would not leave him open to go into the
worksthemselves, and in a manner more to the satisfaction of whole' question if. he thOught it' necessary. He did not
the public by testing the gas as it was actually sent out through mean to 'say that they had not already got sufficient
the mains for the consumption of the inhabitants. The borough evidence before them, but he hoped that no resolution to
engineer had already provided himself with very delicate and
council.tie up their hands would receive the sanction of the
beautiful instruments for ascertaining all the committee could
co consistency the
require of him. As to, the appointment of a- meter inspector, Mrßradley-contended that in mmon
Council could not refuse to . ref erback the reply of the
.
he conceited in its propriety, and the company did the same. company, which came at so late a period of time that it
He believed the company would not even object to pay the was not possible to take it into consideration.
salary, but they would object to his having an office in their MrS Alderman Holme said, that as the discussion had
.
buildings, or to the salary being paid directly by them to him, not been confined to the question, simply, whether or not
to both of which he thought the public would also object, He the reply of the company should be referred back to the
contended that the testing of Mr. Taunton was not to he relied committee, and as the whole question had been opened
upon,' and that Mr. Clegg was evidently wrong in instructing up, and one-sided statements made, Which would go forth,
the committee that the meters registered too fist, in censer
and were calculated to prejudice the company in the
quence of the quality of the gas. Upon the latter point be minds of the public, and as by a salutary rule of the
those who were connected with the company, and
obseriedthat Mr. Clegg's eon had set the public right, by council,were, therefore, best acquainted with its management,
explaining what his lathe, did mean. Finally, Mr. Bennett were precluded from voting or speaking on the subject in
concluded by moving an amendment, to the effect that the that room, he thought it right, in fairness to those -
council sanction the appointment of an inspector of metres, and
men, that the subject should be fully discussed, angdentle he,
also that the borough engineer attend to the testing of gas; therefore, would not apologise for the observations, how-
and that the gas committee have power to confer with the ever lengthy, which he would feel bound to make in the
directors of the gas company as to the terms upon which the matter. It was very easy to get up an outcry either
appointment of inspector should take place, and the duties to against a company or an individual, and if it were correct,
it would find an echo in the general voice, but, if it were
7be performed by that officer.
Mc. Robinson briefly seconded the aniendrnent, founded, as he believed in this instance it was founded, on
Mi. Horriby was quite at a loss to know why the time of
false and incorrect presumption, then it would pass away
the council should be taken up by this discussion, (Hear like the meteor in the air. The gas company had unques-
,
hear.) If he understood th tionably the best of the argument through all of the dis-
es
e motion of the chairman of the
cussion (hear, hear), and h it the
gas committee correctly, it was exactly to the same effect as highest credit on the directorshetho
of u
itg t.
that notwithreflected
stand-
the amendment of Ur. Bennett. The gas company declared, ing all the hard knocks they had received, and the unjust
in the course of their reply, that they were perfectly willing to charges that had been made against them, they had still
have an inspector of meters appointed, and that they were preserved their temper and equanimity, and showed that,
ready to have it done as soon as the council had matured a whilst they managed their business, they could also con-
plan. Now, all the committee asked was that the matter duct themselves as gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) Let it not
should be referred back, in order that such an arrangement be said that he was there as the advocate of the company;
might be made.
he would not undertake that duty, but he was the advo-
, .
Mr. A. C. Stewart thought the committee were hound to cate of every person wrongfully attacked, and of ever
principle of equity and justice. (Hear, hear.) He wasy
defend themselves against the sweeping charge which had been himself a very large gas consumer. He had to pay for the
made against them by Mr. Bennett; and other gentlemen:- gas to the Pedlar's market and the Courts of Bankruptcy, When Mr. Bennett delivered his speech at the last council, he and he had likewise a large tenantry to be supplied with
(Hr.'Stewart) was forcibly struck with the change which had gas, and, if there was a man in Liverpool, who had an
come: over the spirit of that gentleman's dream,- He ' thought interest in having gas made cheap, he was that person.
that Othello's occupation was completely gone ; and that, from But before he proceeded to consider the question, as it
defending the people upon. the water question, he had- taken to affected the Liverpool Gas Company, he should refsr to
the speeches which had been, made on the subject, and in
defending the monopolists against the . people. on the gas .
question favour of the reference to the committee. In Mr. Stewart's
; and he (Mr. Stewart) reasoned that, as his success
speech there was nothing like argument from beginning
had been so very poor on tho first question, he, found it. time to end, and if his legislative ability was to be judged by
to change "sides. ' His speeCh of that day was certainly a much his argumentative power% as exhibited in his address
better speech than he delivered upon the former occasion, for that day, he was n A one of the guides which he (Mr.
it wanted all the soft sawder and smoothing down of Holrne), as a member of the council, would like to see
other gentlemen, and included some facetious remarks leading the public opinion. He was followed by Mr. Shell
about the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. Mr. who talked of clap-trap.. The expression came well from
Stewart then proceeded to contend that the gas committee him, as an Irishman; but when religion was dragged into
would have had, under the proposed arrangement, as good the discussion, and that which formed the subject of their
security as before, inasmuch, as they would have other works, delibera' ion, departed from, he should like to know if it
and that if they had adopted the proposals the security would
have been even greater than before, by keeping away any was not Mr. Shell himself who had been guilty of clap-
trap ? The subject was then taken up by Mr. Robertson
Gladstone, and he regretted that gentleman who was
parties from getting up an opposition. Ile denied that the
council stood bound in,any way to the present company, and tab! wi s a
oy. forcible
daenddt
tb e argumentative,reason ng
e shouldused
cscasscionces
declared that if they thought fit to create or to support a new rence was made to the auditors and their inability from
company it would be perfectly legal and proper for them to do the smallness of their power to examine, as they should,
so. He denied that the interests of the company would have the accounts of the company. Now, he held in his hand
been jeopardized by the arrangements proposed, and pointed the act of the company, and he found that, if the company
to the fact that although the bondholders had no representativei refused to give up any books which the auditors might
upon the dock committee, they were not afraid that their £lOO, and were
demand, they would forfeit the sum of
property would be swamped by that committee, ar that their also subject to a penalty of £lO for every day they per-
interests would not be attended to. It was only-because the
sisted in the refusals. (Hear, hear.) If had withheld any of their books If,
therefore, the
t
council knew that the company had paid up their dividends company
) the auditors, let the act be enforced—letand •had an accumulating . surplus, that they asked fora be applied for—and he felt sure that they
would ordum
theo
e p ebnees
from
a nl
ta yt
reduetion in the price of gas. The gas committee did not once produced. He had been a careful observer of the
wish for anything but an honourable, honest, and just proceedings of the company for some time, and he should
arrangement. They wished to have gas as cheap for the declare that he believed they had in the main fulfilled the
people of Liverpool as it could be manufactured, but they did stipulations of their act of parliament. (Hear, hear.)
not wish to have it applied at a price lower than would pay for He found that in his house he could read with three
the cost of manufacture, burners as well as he could with five burners in London
and four in Manchester, and though unquestionably bad
Mr. Fernihough said he was under the impression that
gas might have on some occasions been supplied by the
Liverpool company,yet it had been the' exception not the
the resolution proposed by Ms. Kitchen would give the gas
(Hear, hear.) They were not to look for absolute
committee power to reopen the question, and to bring rule.
"whole
the entire subject again before the council. • perfection in any body, and as grumblers. were toys found
Mr. Hodson askd whether, Mr.. Kitchen proposed to open up in eyery society, many of whom irsbeing so merely sought
thole queseon again, or' merely, ,as Mr. Hornhy had to save their own pockets at the expense of some one
*o take into consideration the appointment of an else, that should not be taken as a proof that the com-
pany had not in the main fulfilled the stipulations of this
n : Precisely so.
- act. He held in his hands a few remarks from a news-
-id, if the committee did not Weal to open
ny
paper which was the only paper in Liverpool which tried
•otralie wauld support their resolution, but to write down the gas comp, and though he believed
the articles which he referred to were bolts which had
mild be a complete waste of time upon been forged in another smithy, yet that which he was
go into the general question again. about to quote was the effusion of the editor himself. The
'extract set forth that " vested rights; particularly those
shy, after the answer of the whieh the:subject had purchased on the good faith of the
‘.e should be any division 'crown or legislature, cannot be demolished without flag-
rantly violating the constitution." In that sentiment he
asibilities which were (Mr Holme) unquestionably agreed, and he hoped that it
'f parliament, and would be also applied to, and acted on, in the instance of
' that they were other public property. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Gladstone
vof the gas ? spoke of the enormous revenue sthich the company were
deriving from the public, but by their act they could oily
company receive 101 per cent.
old be Mr. Robertson Gladstone : Only 10 per cent.
.•,tri- Mr. Alderman Holme continued : They could only
receive 10 per cent, but it should be remembered that
many of the shareholders had paid 2001 for their shares,
and that, therefore,. they were in reality only receiving
5 per cent on their investment. (Hear, hear.) He would
ask Mr. Gladstone whether ho did not think
that, the original subscribers 'to the London and
North Western Railway did not deserve 10 per cent.
when they first entered on that speculation ? The shares
of the Liverpool gas company had been precisely in the
same position, and to his own knowledge they had, in the
first:instance, gone a-begging, because uersons looked on
it as a mere speculation, and questioned whether it would
pay on the investment or not. (Hear, hear.) Those
who' invested their money under such circumstances, and
from which investment the public derived so large a
measure of benefit, deserved to succeed, and ten per cent
was ;not an unreasonable return on their enterprise and
speculation. He would ask the council whether they
would act towards the gas company as it was 'expected
the government would act towards them in the matter of
the :town dues ? and how they could justify their, own
conduct in the one instance, if, on the other they.con•
side red that of the government unwarrantable and unjust?
He thought that even if by their interference they could
secure a reduction of 6d per 1,000 feet, it would not be
worth the while of having the town agitated from end to
end Pn the matter ; ,nor did he think it desirable that the
present arrangement should be disturbed. Every con-
sumer could now become a shareholder in the com-
pany, the shares having for that purpose been reduced
down to the lowest min/mina price, and could, therefore,
participate in any advantage offered by the company.
He did not think that the establishment of a new com-
pany, which would require an investment of 400,000,
involving some 20,0001 for interest annually, and which
would have to be borne by the consumers, would secure
cheap gas. He would not dwell on the injury which
would be done to the streets in having the paving con-
stantly pulled up, but he would ask them to look
abroad and
Bee the results of misdirected competition in other under-
takings. What had such competition done for railways ?
Had it'increased its dividends ? or decreased the fares ?
No, and those consequences had arisen from capital
havingbeen recklessly expended which now produced no
revenue at all. It was said, however, that a new com-
pany conid make and supply gas cheaper than the price
of the. present company, but let that be shown, and that
a remunerative dividend would be derived from the
'undertaking, and he was sure that there were in this
country men of sufficient enterprise and capital to embark
in it. (Hear, hear.) He would ask them if it was in-
tended, under cover of the dust which was thus sought
to be created, to make the corporation the mule on whose
hack the burthen was to be cast ? (Hear, hear.) If he
might judge of the committee by their own report, which
they had sent to the council, such was, in the background,
their intention. If he did them wrong, or insinuated
what was not their intention. he was sorry for it, but
there was a recommendation in their report, and he had
merely dealt with it as he had found 'it in print. The
corporation had too much on RS hands already. (Hear,
hear.) The warning voice of parliament had already
gone forth on a subject, which nearly touched the pockets
of every individual in the community, although it was a
measure fraught with injustice and one which ought to
sink the ministry if, they attempted to bring forward so
flagrant a propositiOn. (Hear, hear.) They had Birken-
head on their hands, they had extensive public improve-
ments to be carried out, they had that day sanctioned
the borrowing of 20,0001 for the new library and museum,
and they had also the Wallasey embankment staring them
in the face, which was a much more serious matter than
many of the council imagined. It might be the case, and
he was not uncharitable in the supposition, that
Mr.
there were parties out of doors who were urging
Kitchen on in this matter, in the hope that by a continual
agitation of it in the council, they might save their own
pockets at the expense of the public, but they would find
that the council was not so blind in the matter as they
supposed. It was urged, too, that they could supply gas
as cheaply as water, but there was no analogy between
thoni; for while one was the gift of a bounteous nature,
the other was a' manufacture, and required sod &ad

)11 to your fac

)u the information which, under
ve a right to.'' -4,, that had