The Express.
London, England, 1861-05-04 00:00:00

EXPRESS, SAT UR DAY EVENING, MAY 4, lB6l.

the standing orders and in the practice of the house." He
romplained that the house had not had time t 3 consider
tbose proposels. (Hear, hear.) The Dobbs lord told them
he did nut Mai to narrow the field of discussion in that
house, but it appeared to him (Mr. Bentinck) the noble lord
proposed what would shut up discussion altogether.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord said also there would be
• greater certainty of what business would come on on any
particular evening; but he should be very glad to bear from
Mille member of the committee what knowledge members
could have of the business that was to come on on any even-
ing. (Hear.) He asked if it would not be in the power of
the government to pass every eight estimates with almost
empty houaes, and to deprive private members altogether of
the hewer of origisating measures in that house. (Hear,
hear.) He submitted to the house that under these ar-
rangements it would be tantamount to an impossibility
for any member not sitting on either of the
front benches to bring forward any meseure. (Hear.)
He deprecated the delay which usually took place at the
commencement of the session in coosequeoce of the govern-
meet not having perfected their measure* daring the recess.
In asking the house to support the negative proposition
which he had submitted, he begged it to be understood
by hon. members that he was not opposed to all change in
the mode of conducting the business of the home, hut he
' thought the propositions of the noble lord were of such a
startling character in their attack upon the rights and pri-
vileges of private members that they ought not
: to be bastay considered or rashly adopted.
Mr. KNIGHTLEY seconded the amendment. _ _

Mr. PAULL could not concur in the recommendations of
the committee, end especially objected to the approprirtion of
another day in the week to the government, an arrange-
ment which would leave only one day to private members.
Mr. HFI4 LEY said that be for oae would bays been dis-
posed to have placed the greatest reliance in the report of
the select committee, but the last proposition of the noble
lord, illustrated as it had been, bad concluded his mind
'gullet these resolutions. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that, having had the honour of
presiding over the committee, he should have preferred re-
maiuing silent during the present discussion, but he could
remove the apprehensions of the boa. member for North-
amptonshire, as he was no longer able to address the house
at any considerable length. The honourable member for
Norfolk having, however, proposed to negative the
resolutions ho must trouble _ the house with • few

observations. The honourable member complained
that government and the committee had been wanting
in courtesy to the independent nimbus, but he must say,
in justice to his noble friend at the bead of the government,
at whose request he had taken the chair of the committee,
that his noble friend selected him especially because be wen
au independent member, and that therefore he would be
the last to be wanting in courtesy to the large body of mem-
bers who were similarly situated. The object both of the
committee and of the noble lord at the head of the govern-
meat was that no course should be taken which would in
the slightest degree interfere with the motions or speeches
of independent members. The bon. member for Norfolk com-
plained that the house had been taken by surprise by the pro-
credinp of the committee, but so far from that being the ere,
his right hon. friend the Home Secretary bad in the first
butanes drawn out a distinct outline of the propositions
which it was wished the committee should consoler, and
those proposition', although considerably modified, formed
' the basis of the recommendations of the committee.

][r. BI:NTINCIC siplained that the _
nee of which
he had complained was that they should be called on so
soon to decide ee the report of the oommittee.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that even then there had been no
surprise, as the report had been in the bands of members
for above a week, and was neither voluminous nor ac-
compaoied by much evidence. The report might be verbose,
but he trusted it was dear and intelligible. The members
for Norfolk and St. lees said that the Brat object they
should seek was to get certainty with respect to the time of
going into committee. He admitted that distinctly, but
the committee could not have approached the object
without proposing chows firffter than any they had
recommended, and imposing. limitation on hon. members
previous to the Speaker leaving the chair, which would be
quite novel and objectionable in principle The hon. mem-
ber for Norfolk said that indepeodent members would have
no opportunity of making motions if this report were
adopted, but he was mistaken, and would find that by
proposing an amendment on the motion for supply
there would be greater facilities for discussion, and
even for a division, if the latter was deemed necessary.
The next observation of his hon. friend wee that there was a
greet waste of time at the commeacement of the sesaion.
• entirely agreed with his hon. friend, and that it was a
great object to h►ve the business of the government on the
,table at an early period. Bat it was also an object that the
estimates should be passed before Banter, and therefore it
was why committees of supply teak precedence of other
measures. Thinking that the reselatioas were suitable, he
hoped the home would consent to discuss them sovietize,
and not reject them all because one was disapproved of by
certain hon. members.

Mr. ERIVOURT defended the resolutions, which, he
said, had Uses most carefully prepared, sod would, io his
opinion, mad edentoelly Mete the business of the

—The house divided—
For tie amembasat
Ao=6 ZS —US
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY sositeted that the motion day
paper shouhl be kept free from any order for committee of
supply; web aa mrsigeatent would be either useless or
mischievous. . . . .

Sir 6.-F-.IIIWIII said that was the intention of the

In sower to Mr. Annoy,
Lord PALMERSTON said that the t would
always state oa Tosidays, at 9 o'clock, whether they MINIM
to go into supply or not.
The first rosoktieu was then agreed to.
Oa the second resolution,
Kr. X. IgILNES moved an amendment, the effect a
whisk would be not to ere Thursdays to the gormless&
I natal attar Easter. - .

Mr7FAuu. suggested the amendment ought to apply to
Fridays," sad not to "Thursdays."
After some discussion the amendment was negatived.
The resolution was agreed to.
The thinl and fourth resolutions were agreed to after
some discassioa.

On tis;liilt,Which provides that • bill which hie been
referred to • aided committee need not be brought before a
ennuaittee of the whole hones,
Kr. HENLEY renewed hia objections to it ; and after •
debate the resolation was withdrawn for the present, with •
view to be resoweidenstion.

THE RECENT EVENTS AT WARSAW. '
Mr. COCHRANE then rose to cell the attention of the
house to the affairs of Poland, and to move an address
for copy of correspondence connected with th• recent
erects at Warsaw. It seamed to him that there
was an opportunity for the government of this
country to do a good and excellent work. (Hear, hear.)
It was a very different thing to deal with the King of '
Naples and the Emperor of Ramie ; but the motto of the
noble lord seemed to be "panere seperbie et &bedlam sub.
jamas." (Hear. bear.)
Mr. IVEYOY asked the Seer tary of &ate for Foreign
Affairs whether be had marls any representations, and if
any, what representations, to the BONI& government, re-
lative to the recent destruction by' the Imperial troops of
unarmed people in Warsaw and other parts of Poland. It
appeared to him that the lionounble gentleman who bad
just spoken entirely misconceived the subject, for there
were hardly any two things between which the divergence
was more complete than between the Italian and the
Polish question. He (Mr. liPEvoy) considered that this
country and France were bound in honour to support the
meaty upon which the nationality of Poland rested. The
patience with which that country Md endured her prolonged
agony must endear her to the heart of every man that pos•
stand the feelings of hurnanity, and he believed that the
noble lord bad Wens now takes oression to awns hie
strong disapprobation of those three criminal governments
Austria, Russia, and Prussia, which had confederated toge-
ther for the purpose of destroying her.
Sir H. VERNEY, before asking the question which he
had placed on the paper, begged to express hie entire nm-
pathy with the set of the hoe. member who had just sat
down. Retracted that the English would, in conjunction
with the French govermiletta interfere is the affairs of
Poland, where treaties were grossly violated to which
both nations had be peaks. • begged next, turning. to
his own motion, to mic the Secretary of ®rate for Foreign
Attain whether, together with the correspondence on the
affairs of Schleswig and Holstein, which be was shout to lan
upon the table of the hone, he had any objection to submit
the ort ma& by Join Ward, Esq., C. 8., her Majesty's
Cons•Geaseni at Hamburg, on the affairs of those duchies,
after a visit which he made there about live years ago ; and
hoped that some steps would be taken to prevent
the war, which he believed was imminent, with the Danes.
Mr. HENNESSY wished that the noble lord would also
isform the hone whether he had received any information
from Mr. Elliot respecting the eo-calleid reactionary move-
ment in Naples. The morning paper telegrams
informed them that tranquillity was complete, and=
wan to know whether that was actually the fact.
Sir X. PET°, reverting to the ScWeswig-Holstain
question, denied that Denmark had pursued any aoudad the
ravens of eimeiliatiny towards the people of the Duchies.
The feet was that Denmark no sooner made one concession
than it was made the ground for another. His interments
with those countries led him to believe that the population
of Schleswig and Holstein themselves wore well-disposed
towards Deumark ; but there were persons among them who
endeavoured to stir up discontent. The government of
Denmark was most =MOUS to meet every thing in the
fairest spirit. They would do every thing in the way of
conciliation, bet there was no nation on earth more deter-
mined to maintain their rights.
Lord J. RUmaftrt mid it was • somewhat anxious
no doubt, to have to give an opinion with
to the maims countries of Europe, and the manta iiiire
merits of varier parties, without communicating informs.
ties which perimplistmht not to be given at the time, and
witho
ut at into the matter. The hon. member
far Bridport y saying that he (Lord J. Russell)
made an to nationalities in the despatch that he
wrote in and that that despatch was the new
pane of whet 11141 taken place at Warsaw, and in Henn
pay. Now, in the first place, the hon. gentleman /wee
mistakes in maybe lad
he nude an appeal to nationalities.
at what had taken place with ..rd to Italy. and
especially with raped to Naples and Sicily, he was induced
to write that &notch because Kuria and Prussia had
already given their opinion, and sooner or later the quer
Mee mead have arisen whether the government which bad

superseded the government of the late King of Naples was
such a government that this country could acknowledge ass
regular government in Europe. It was therefore necessary
to give some opinion with regard to what had taken place in
Italy. He gave that opinion, sad be stated that for 40
years from the year 1821 the people both in the Roman and
in the Neapolitan States had suffered misgovernment
which he believed was worse than that of any
other country in Europe, and • good deal worse
than that of the Turkish government, and that having
suffered so long he could not wonder that they had joined
an invading force to liberate themeless. But with regard
to these othercountries, agreat deal meshed been attributed
to that despatch than could fairly be attributed to it. The
events which had taken place in Hungary could certainly not
be attributed to it. With regard to Poland, every one in
this country must feel that a DatiOD so distinguished in his-
tory, and which had preserved a feeling of nationality to
this day, deserved a better fete, and they must also rt
that she was the victim of the partition which took place
eighty or ninety years ago. But he should be very reluctant
to say anything which would induce the Poles to suppose
that their nationality would be restored by any effort that
would be made by this country in their favour. If he were
to write • despatch on the subject to the court of Elt. Peters-
burg he bad no doubt whatever what the answer of that
court would be. He should be told that the Emperor of
Russia had made the most liberal concessions to his Polish
eubjecte,and that all he required was that tranquillity should
prevail in the country, but that he meant not to withdrew
those concessions or to go beyond that which be thought
neceseaty for the preservation of peace in his dominions.
There would be a despatch, mid there would be an answer,
but was there any party in this country, was there any go-
vernment thatcould be formed in this country that was likely
to take up arms in behalf of Poland, and to endeavour to
restore her nationality ; and if we were not prepared to do
that, although we might sympathise with Poland, he did
not think it was a case for diplomatic despatches, or diplo
matic exertion. What bad happened lately was so doubt
very lamentable. (Hear, hear.) He could not for his own
part understand why it was that force should have been
used to disperse the crowd in the streets of Warsaw. It
was quite competent for the governor of Warsaw, if
there were crowds in the streets which disturbed the public
pence, to give notice that these crowds would be dispersed,
but though at the moment there was Doti°e given, end
three times repeated, that the crowd which had collected
would be dispersed, it seemed to him it would have bees
wise and just, and that the government ought to hey, given
previous notice that the assembling of crowds in the streets
was subversive of public order, and that they would
not permit these crowds to assemble. As to the
production of the report, he did not think it ad-
visable to give the report of our consul at War-
saw. One party or the other would be affected by
it. The neat point was the question et the hos.
gentleman (Mx. Hennessy) as to what had intone phase is
Naples. Now the accounts they had from Naples were of
this general complexion, that tranquillity prevailed in
Naples, but that the provinces were very mush disturbed
by the disbanded soldiers of the may of the late king. That
was • result which generally took pima at the end of a con-
test when a large army was 'disbanded, the eddies having no
occupation, and being accustomed to live by the proteins of
arms, they took to unlawful courses. Ins the last volume of
Imd Macaulay's History, recently published, it was
stated that after the battle ot Cressy when our tr
were disbanded, the reads mkt some time unsafe. andolt
country was disturbed by &beaded soldiers. But with
regard to Naples, there was • peculiarity with regard to the
position of that city, bemuse, while the late King had been
driven from Gaeta, and from every stronghold that be pos-
sessed in the kingdom, he was Awed to remain in Rome,
and he sent money, arms, and ammunition to his ad.
herents in Naples. Conspiracies have been dieoovered, and
it was alleged that the liberal ]seders were
to be assassinated, and several mesons bad been arrested
who were to be brought to trial. As to the question as to
whether there were any despatches from Mr. Eliot, Mr.
Elliot left Naples about six months ago, sad had mime been
in this country, and therefore there were no despatches
from him. There was as attache at Naples who forwarded
those accounts, but there were no despetoaee tole presented
on the subject. Some commercial demobilise, which be un-
derstood the hon. gentleman to ask for, hmil been laid on
the table. . .

kIICNNESSY rid he did not ask for the comeeeiel

deapatcha, but far ay repeste which had been received with
rorlto rosotioomary soovoloonta.
J. RUSSELL said there were no despatches with
reference to reactionary movements, except that there were
primes who were arrested, and there had been reports
from time to time. Her Majesty's government bad
been in communication with several of the powers
with a view to make srrangements between Denmark
and Schleswig and Holstein; but be owned that it appeared
to him that the differences that bad arises arose from the
feeling which had been displayed on both sides, from the
large pretences which had been pat forward on. both sides,
and not from any real difficulty. He believed it was quite
true, as his hon; friend behind him (Sir M. Psto) had said,
that the people of Schleswig and Holstein did not wish to
change their government, sad that they wished
to live ander the revernmeat of Denmark • but
there were constitutional qammildems whisk had risen.
Upon these matters her Majesty's government were in arm.
nomication with the different powers of Europe, sad be
hoped they might be so far agreed as to be able ProPen.ll
term. that might he acceptable, because there woo oortimy
nothing more dangerous than a mutest between oomosy
sad Denmark, sa so one could my how far that emeted
would spread. With regard to the report of Mr. Ward, it
rmidi five yes" ago. The state of things was meek
anged since then, and it would rather mislead the house
than otherwim if they were to present it.
The motion for the adjournment until Motley was
then agreed to.
COLONEL KEOGH.
On the motion of Mr. Waremins a select committee
was appointed to inquire into the matters aller the
petition of Lientenant-Colonel John Henry
wonted to the hones on the 14th day el March last, and
report to the house thereon.
SUPPLY.

A motion having bosOO;rleby Mr. Peel to go into
committee of supply in order to vote rums on account for
certain civil services—revend members objected, and a
division was taken, when the elation for going into does-
=Mee was carried by 52 to 29.
egMhouse went into committee and several votes were
to, although not without distension an to the
system of voting money on account.
An HON. Moms moved that the hoes' be connesd,
when, forty members not being lbs boom ad-
journed at ten minutes to one o'

PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE/.
POOR RELIEF IN THE METROPOLIS.
This committee met again yesterday, Mr. Vil-
liers in the chair. The other members pews were Sir W.
Jolliffe, Lord Edward Howard, Mr. asLy, bib°. Bowyer,
Mr. Alderman Sidney, Colonel Pennant, Mr. Kekewieb,
Mr. Lyull, Mr. Buller, Mr. Walpole, and Lord B. Cecil.
Mr. Turner, of St. Pancras, WAS recalled. He said the
governors and directors of St. Pancras Union felt aggrieved
that their authority should be ignored by the Poor•law
Board, in being obliged to apply to the central board for
their consent in respect to every trifling alteration which
they consider becamty in the workhouse. To able-bodied
men out of employment, and who applied for out-door re
lief, he would give a small sum of money, so aa to keep
them off the parish, and enable them to obtain employment.
He was not aware that that was a scheme resort d to in the
rural districts for the purpose of loweniig wages. The
guardians of St. Pancras did not direct the nlevtcg.oicer to
require persons who were about to coma late the workhouse
to sell up their furniture. He was net aware of any in-
stance in which the Pooelaw Board had improperly cue
eised their power in dismissing masters of union workhouses
re others, but he was of opinion that the Poor-law Board
should not have that power of arbitrary dismissal continued
to them. He conceived that the dietary of St. Penns
was a full dietary. It was not their rule now to ferns out
the paupers' children before they were sent to ached.; bat
some time ago a number of therm children were sent to a
school at Tooting, where a fever broke out in consequence
of their bed treatment, and a you considerable mortality
took place among them. Bee that time the guardians had
erected 'schools of their own. Those children, after they
leave the school, were generally successful in getting good
situations. He thought they ought to have a discretionary
power of emigrating, and many of them had done so.
Alter hearing some further evidence, the committee a-
larmed.

FROM LAST NIGHTS GAZETTE.