The Express.
London, England, 1850-06-06 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY IFVOING, JUNE 6, 1

_
wen alla know' is new park if Un onatry
townie Kla import of with& ties Nodose' entity had
mom gliKI„ -"ken ware et that moment fa the various
training 'methadone ist sad and Leadea sheet 360 pupil
washers, whilst la the Manna dkaiste there were 812.
He agreed wick lea. kind tke atesbur for ()Ahem
that as of the persist WOW um, pest Ind hen the en•
der apnea a aseldfia 41knoriesa.) Wheel the National
Society took Oa osanned its ta 1347, they found
that the automat paid Se Ueda= aseually was 621,0001,
whilst the amber of Mashes woe 20,000, as that the
p salary was sal, stint 204 Bat the pro-
per randy for chi evil wee net to setablisk •
sew system whoa so nub geed led boss dame
under this minis( us, bat to reasnaente tankers better
through the aid .f, goatenneat grans. Horng all this
ssaohliney ia operation, the ant part of the system bei,g
only tat years old, sad the last only three, were they, with
sash astnielieg rents before this.., he pat a stop to all that
was bona dose, and as say OM Wilkes **ea retain se-
cular intricate ally f (Hear, bear.) It really appeared
to am that the hes. member for Oldham brotteht forward
nothing in support of his prepaid's. The only tangible
grand- which he had heard far assenting to it was
that stated by tbe his. and learned umber for Toughs'
—sanely, that the Nstioaal Society and the governneat
were now engaged in a dispute. He (Kr. W. P. Wood)
saw nothing In the asansgeant classes proposed by the
ponaineat to which • dianthuses starlit not give his sane.
ties. It was • fanny to talk of parents objaniag to here
their children eotir, as was done in that armlet of the
works. men, which was, he felt sure, addressed to them
rather than by them. (Hem, hear.) Is England there was
se sesemity for laying down any rule on the subject. Tits y
algae safely allow anyb sly of Christians to educate chills..
as an exclusive system if they pleased; there were schools
enough for all to resort to. Hs did not understand libe-
rally so consist in illtilittretitilln; the ft= who eared about
nothing could well afford to be liberal, but a man
might be deeply and sincerely unmet in his opinions, and
respect seethes from a belief that he was firmly oonriand
of ths madness el Ids owe views, sad that was a lffsealltx

which he leek te he sea iii mead. He believed
that a aces, whatever of intellect he might
Pongee, : or however ma he might andeestaad his
own interest, mill needed relisiese Welk le guide him—
(Hear, hear)—aad believing that he meld set undertake to
pat a child to a school when he would be dependent on pre-
Carious religious isstreetios—(bear, hear)—he therefore
Inked to have that child put at a school where there would
preside a gifted teacher, prenated to devote himself to the
gond work from a sense of religious duty alone ; and where
everything said and done would not be merely from the
=math, bet from the heart and is the service of God.
(Hear, hear )
Mr. M. 01BSON wee anxious to point out is what
respect he qualified the support he wee about to give the
hes. member for Oldham. It was a question at the permit
time eminently proper to be iatrodaosd to the sorties of the
house by a non-official member. If it appeared that the
public opinion wee not sufficiently 'extend on the subjeet
to entitle a governments, submit the proposal to parliament
as a cabinet measure, and if an independent member was
not to be at liberty io bring it forward, Mere would be no
opportunity at all of diagnasing its merits and amusing the for-
mation of public opinion either one way or the other by a par-
liamentary debate. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, in his (Mr.
Gibson's) opinion, the house and the country were indebted
to the hon. member for ()inhale (Mr. Fox) for Introducing
the subject for the deliberation and disenstion of that hous•.
(Hear, hear.) As to the epithet of "philosophers" applied to
then by the Ma. =sorbet for Oxford, it reminded him

pivse Mesh am eikeelem latibles west
would
Mr. free
soil ther theardlowt Obi released de.
bate be hesnittE=whelsearehet temiihed poodesly dm fasts
es whisk he the seeemity et this imeaseire, et use
semen et dusetiptiow. He beaded Ms attempt to do
sommake far his blew mitatrymea, far the improvement of
dee lostrosties aseaely pima te them, somullog fur the ex.
smiles et iseterstten to the new destitute of it, sot on any
shank* pip tint ea the doeseestreted seeeesity that
something should be due. It we. wet his Intestine to
demolish soy minks lysteles of Austina in order to
ealehillt mew Mo, tha absurdity of whisk exudes's led
demeestratod, set seedy in Whew* to adman, lift
with regard Mall kinds el relent wholawswer ; bat to meirlda
hew very essudia mod Imprint systeue could lie Ur
mee lead, periled sad made to do a steatite linneMil
of good thee they lied hitherto efeeted. (Hem, beat.)
Baal was she smtwee able propeskime, mid, so fat rem a:-
gladiator Minim, It peessimaily ammit N retails the reli-
giose impales toe the dillies of .dustier. (Heerizz.2
He &predated quite as highly se the her. tad
member for Oxford the results talk* had hem predeeed 17
the nfigious intpul•e; but all Mee impolem lequired
be watched, and more pardimMy as weemested with eda-
m**, last what was eelled veligies, but what should be
men properly designated theelegy, should be made as in-
stillment of proselytism, sad lead to the perm-
dos of education itself. (Hear, hear.) The great
OM es which he founded his tion was,
Ad after all that had bees dose for the ex-
iled. of education is thie eoustry, it was dill
itrely deficient, whilst its quality wee lamentably
irof.) (Hear, beer.) He ventured I. affirm that the
ukelele of a theolotical *digestion and the proselytism
which was inseparably tioessested with it, had so far
swamped other modes of Instructive as to impair the effects
of the religious principle itself m laatllled into the sleds
if pupils by means of such imperfect instrution. The evi-
deuce which existed for that minuet it would be difficult
to gainsay. They had it in evidence that the cumber of per-
toes who were unable to ape their names to the mamsge
registry amounted to 31 per east. of males end 45a
per east. of female'. It appeared that the num-
ber of pecans who two years ego were unable to
gigs the r.giatry amounted to 42,429 make, and 61,877 re-
make. This showed that the mans quoted by the hon.
sad learned member for Oxford required to have large de-
ductions made from them. (Hem, beer.) Agaio, the return
of juvenile °Baden in 1847, which had been made on the
motion of the hon. member fee Pontefract, showed that of
11,195 juvenile offenders, 4,738 were unable to read, and
that of 14,738 juvenile offenden in 1848, no lees than 5,200
were unable to read. These stalemate proved that whatever

returns were made frogs the selieds, tht; umber of persons
last/acted was =soh smaller than could be supposed. (Hear.)
And furthermore they had to sembla• this with the startling
fast that, large as war the proportion of persons who were
enable to read, it was not, alter all, amongst the annduested
class that the greatest number of erimiaaL was to be found.
The National School Society was at war with the
committee of the pi ivy uncoil. (Hear.) The Catholic
School Society was holding off, and was not yet in • position
to receive any advantage from the national fuad
appro-
priated to education. (Hear, hear.) There were divisions
in the British and Foreign School Society. (Hear.) Here
then were the main springs of these eds-ational operations
damaged, and in suck a condition that they could not work
ar they had heretofore done. (Hear.) All this showed that
something else was essential topat education again on its
onward counts. (Hear, hear.) The inspector of schools fur
the northers district stated that one school out of every
fin was either defunct or in danger of be-
coming extinct, and he gave it as his opinion that
the sante was the cue throughout the kingdom to a maid-
(livable extent. Tatty had it reported to them that in the
1,300 and odd schoidis of the National Society there was
seho.il room for twit* the number of children that consti-
tuted the daily average attendance. (Hear, hear.) This
agile' showed the estimation Is which the present system
vu held. But it was assumed throughout the debate that a
secular education meant the exclusion of religiut. He
denied tt.at secular and religious instruction were neersiartly
opposed. (Hear, hear.) It was his Stu belief that
- . .
the

teat this same had been applied by the old school
of conservatives to Wilt:erica' and thou joined with
him is the endeavour to emancipate the slave.. (Hear,
heat.) With regard to the governeeeet not taking up the
subject at this moment, which many deemed a suitable one,
he was not going to reproach them oa that arsonist ; it
might he said that public opinion was not sufficient(' sips
ea the matter, but nee enbelese he could users the house
that symptoms of atemistakablei approbation had been meni•
tested towards it. (Hear, hear) He believed there we.
ao question at the present moment is which the working
clause took a duper interest than in that proposed to the
house by the hon. rasailor for Oldham. (Hear, hear.) It
appeared to him (Mr. Gibson), in reference to the msaufac-
tuning districts, that their position was a peculiar one, and
one that tailed most emphatically on the -legislature to pro-
vide unosetariaa education. What did the legislature do in
the first Instance ? It enacted that no child should be ad.
missibie, and, consequently, should not earn • livelihood, in
any of the coAos, woollen, or silk factories, unless
they had attended the local school. But there the
measure stopped, wilsout providing the school for
tare attendance. (Hear, hear.) Now if they made
school attendance the coaditions of employment, sad if
there flirted more than the mire name of religious libery
in the isometry, they were bound to provide schools of as
ensectariaa character, to which persons of all religious de-
nominatius could resort. (Hear, hear.) Now, if such
were not done the government would be open to the charge
of coercing the consciences of those who had no alternative
but of attending a sectarian school of a different religion
from their own, or of nen-employment. (Hear, hear ) He
would take the hypothetical cue of a Roman Catholic school is
the immediate vicinity done of those tutorial'. The law praz-
tiestly enamelled the factory children to go to that school, so
that • Protestant child was in the position that it should go
to that utteol to be iadoctrinated with Roman Catholic
tenets, or keg its occupation. (Hear, hear) In fact, the
child might he compelled to forego its religion or its heel-
hood. (Hear, rear.) That was not • fair position. II
labour Is to be cioatingeot on school attendance in the manu-
facturing or !agricultural districts, and it it was a good prie-
r pie for one it was for the other. (Hear, hear.) None but
asseciarian school. were suitabdr, or the prit.cii les
of religious liberty must he endangered. If there were
these numerous schools of which the hon. memher for
Oxford had spoken, and which gave general satisfaction, it
would nut be necesaary that the ratepayers should further
tax themselves to establish schools that were not required.
If there existed that superfluity of education in pieta of the
country, and of a satisfactory quality, was it
to be supposed that the ratepayers would volun-
tarily tat themselves hir unnecessary additional sehools ?
If it be kid down that in poor districts property must eon-
tribal. towards schooling, there was nothing unreasonable
is all holders of property paying in equal proportion at least
towards secular education when religion was not interfered
with. (Hear, hear.) He was aware that in many agricul-
tural districts some few gentlemen of property wire called oa
to pay the expenses of the parish school., whilst other wealthy
gentlemen having property its the locality, but happening
net to be resident, escaped contribution. If they were to
contribute to the secular education of the younger claim%
it was right that property should be called upon and rated
in just; and fair proportion. (Hear, hear.) He did not to
the least degree underrate the value and importance of the
efforts made by the different religious COMIIIIIOIO4I in sup-
port of education. (Hear, hear.) He thought it would be
a great misrepresentation of the facts of the cue if they de.
nied that the religious communion+ of the country, die-
worn and churchmen, on many occasions and in various
parts of the country, gave most valuable and digit-
wrested support to the more of education. (Ilear, hear.) He
should observe that the bill was called "A Bill to promote
the Secular lidocation of the People of England and Wales."
It left religious teaching where it then was, and did sot in-
terfere with the existing machinery for dispensing religious
instruction to the esiumsaim. (Hear, hear.) Wait wee
that anchieery Had they made no preparation for reli-
gious instruction? (Hear ) No country had expert, d
half the amount that Reiland had in giving religious instrue-
Con to the people. If they took the church and the direnting
bodice, and considered that some can millions were ex-
pended by them in giving religious instruction, they would
see that the amount—and he did not think he was over the
mirk in stating it—was twice as much as war paid by any
ether country. (Hear, hear.) Now it was not propasied to
meddle with that fund : and he then asked, why that trepi-
dation in refereace to religious inetruetion—hed they not
already provided for it? (Hear, hear.) The bill of the
hon. member for Oldham only railed on them to superadd
to the religious instruction—already provided—intellectual

,
...e more the mind was furnished with intellectual truth,
the hotter it was acquainted with the weeks of the Creator,
We treater would b• the disposition of the pupil's heart
Ise superior religion. (Hear, hoer.) Instead of there
being any antithesis between secular and religious
education, he regarded them as auxiliary to each °vier.
Well, then. It might be urged, why not unite them in the
Mme school? His answer was that it could not be done in •
erantry where there was such • variety of religious opinions.
There was the difficulty, and with that difficulty they had
to grapple. What each wanted wee not co much to have
religion inculcated as to have the religion which he himself
uoteseed—that was to my what he believed to be the true
religion—taught in schools. But what was the true reliiion
(Hear, hear.) Who was to be the judge of that? Was it
to be • majority of that house ? Wu it to be the
majority in the country ? That could not he, for they
had respected the conscientious scruples of the minority.
He was quite correct, therefore, in saying that there were
insuperable difficulties in the way of placing the instruction
ef the country totally and entirely in the hands of the
March. But besides this the church had another and a
higher mission. It was the duty of the clergy to keep the
people entrusted to their cue from crime and sin—to cat. -
shin the children is their respective parishes en week days
end on the Sabbath. The all-important concern of salva-
tion was quite enOtaga--10 exercise all the powers
M those who were entrusted with the ministra-
tion of religion. But the lousiness of teachiag
referred to the concerns of this world and not
M another—it had to make goo l citizens, at.d not
saints. (Hear, hear) The parson had no right to make the
schoolmaster his proxy, and then come up in the liberality of
the public for the payment of the schoolmaster. (Hear,
hear.) He was departing from his own most important
dusty when he turns . aside to see how the schoolmaster
executed his. (Hear, hear) Another reason why the
church c mid not perform this duty was, .hat it set limits to
its ii fluent* by its own religious jorneout. Another
reason was, that a system of national education re-
quired an outlay of Public money, and the dm-
meters woull not submit to be taxed even for secular
purposes if the money was to be hanged over to the esteh
Balled church. (" Hear, hear," and cries of "Divide ")
Another reason why he should be unwilling to leave the com-
m.l of education in the hands a the church was, that the
perfect independence of the schoolmaster was essential to the
imparting of a good education. It was said by Dr. Busby
that he would not take off his hat in his schoolroom, even
is the perusal of the sovereign, and in his opinion
it would be vain to expect • good and perfact
education where the schoolmaster was overs'iadowed by
s clerical superior. He knew an instance where a teacher
was rebuksd for instructing a child who had not been bap-
tised according to the ordinances of the church of England.
He would read for the house high authority to show that
secular and religious education might be kept separate and
distinct, without any damage to religion. Here was the
opinion of an eminent professor of Moral Philosophy in the
Uuimmity of Oxford, who was afterwards made a bishop of
ner Majesty's government (Dr. Hampden) H. thus
speaks in a course of lectures delivered at Oxford in 183.5 '
Rut since the separation of philosophy in general from theology,
whilst other sciences have profited largely by their independent culti-
vation, these has remained a timidity of speculation in a
backwardness, to use that liberty of reason here, which has been so
beneficially a lopted in other branches of knowledge. Their is • port
of superstition on the subject; the demon* of impiety and profane-
ness haunt the imagination, when we contemplate the enabustiment
of moral obligations, Independently of the revealed will of tied con-
cerning a future state of mustenos. • • • • rine, both Shafts. I
bury and 80l ebroke have shown. and I think unanswerably, that
the principles of morality are founded in our nature, it.dependestly
of any system of religious belief, and are, in fact, eblinstory even on
the atheist. • • • • But I intend, Mementos the indOoendence
a moral obligation on any religious sanction. t. reter, in Mama, of
this rrOttlott, to the indisputable instsnoes which have appeared, of
an upright t nor of life—of the duties belonging to the scrum. relm
Bons of life—correctly performed by those who have wanted the
higher induesonents to right median, resulting from the profession of
a better creed.
He bad, perhaps, still higher authority, that of the pri
mate of the English church. He did not mean to say that
his language implied an approval of his ( Mr. Fox's) -theme,
but it show, d that he conwiered that secular education could
be impaled, separated trom religious education, with4ut
any detriment to religion. The honourable gentle-
man here read an extract from a charge of •he
Archb shop at Canterbury to his clergy, in which
he state I ihat " the literary character of the schools depended
on the schoolmaster, but its religious character dependo i on
the minister " He chose to give the opinion of others who
could not he suspected rather than advance any of his own on
the motion, because he was well aware that if he did so

ineteseues, whisk even the boa. member far Oxford con peruse would not be waatiag to cell him infidel end
sidered nesessary to the harmonies' development of all the atheist. But he firmly and eineerely +shoved that the
tualties. (Hear, hear) Tbey already, if they did their seperaton was in every way nose wary to produce the full
duty, had the meths of improving the spiritual faculty; and mount of good both as regarded religion and eduction.
therefore be called on them to develop the intellectual, that He did not wish to see persons thrown upon the
befit might combine for the benefit of the Co.- world ignorant of the commonest every-day mat,en. H
inanity. (Hear, hear.) He could not me why did not want ea education whit* left persons ignorant of
has. members who supported the measure should the amber of onuses in a pentad, of the number of inches
be open to the charge of endsavouring to diminish the ex- in • foot. of the name of the reigning eovereige, and who
Mt of religious instruction. (Hear, hear.) The Sunday did not know whether the months of June and July were
whelk would remain intact, as would all other religinus in. winter or summer months. ('' Hear, hear," and isughter )
stitutions. (Hear, hear.) He could see no grounds for He wsnted an education which would enable the pupils in
eeriness opposition. Surely the teaching of erithmetic, gen- atter life to steer their °Dares readily, smith would sot
graphy, and reading and writing could not perm, be deemed leave them unseqsainted with modes of industry,
irreligious. (Hear.) Let them give 'ocular Question in which would save them from becoming the dupe et the
the national schools, and leave to the religie us communions demagogue or the fanatic, which would induce them, from
and the ministers of the various persuasions that task which, moral consideratioae, to postpone the marriage connexion
he felt, their seal would make theta discharge with fi lelity, till they were in • position to maintain a family, which
namely, that of giving religious instruction. (Hear, hear.) would teach them, in some degree. what it was the townie-
It was new to him to bear that it was the duty of the church tun could do, and what it could sot do, to elevate their
to teach reading, wilting, and arithmetic. (liear, hear.) position, which would impart thou hotter views
He conceived it to b • the duty of the church to teach re- of science which would give dignity to their opera-
veiled religiiin to their own congregation, but not to give lions in mechanics, or in the factory, and which world
molar instruction. (Hear, hear.) If it were the duty of finally enable theta to profit by the lemons of religi
Husband+ to give secular lastreetioa, then what a reproult aa no doubt tb. y would best be ails to profit from
to her, oosaiderieg her enormous funds, must not the fart those lessons If their minds were more expanded. (clue re)
M, that of the population of England mad Wales, 46 per lie wadi not propose education as a pananta; other efforts
mat of those who presented themselves for marriage were should be made, but he would say this, that education wee
not able to write their names. (Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") an essential condition, and that, without it, the best measures
Let the church, then, deal with the moral and religious would be inefficacious. People were apt to be misled a. to
training of her own members ; but he saw nothing to pre- what stoat nearly affected their interests And what had the
Teat the ratepayers establishing, at their own pleasure, country now before it? the lonely and dark pre. iptir of a
by an equalised rate on property, schools to which their continuance of burdens that now pressed hurl, ; whilst by
children might repair to obtain secular knowledge and in. the knowledge of religious imineiples, they wool • give the
strum:ion. (Hear, hear.) first Miaow of enlightened, devoted loyalty, and they would
Mr. NAPI BR believed the exact principle of this bill to have the great mass of the people first humanised and then
he this—that it is the duty of the legislature to compel • christianised.
prevision by rate upon property for an education in which Mr. HMIS said be should support the bill. Throughout
the emission of religion was an essential element. Hitherto the whole country no means were provided by which *ocular
education in this country had been based upon religion ; the education night be given.
morale of Clir stienity were the eighest form of morale, and The SPRAY here interrupted the hon, member, and
Mr. Lock, connected even intellectual refinem-nt with said thatit appeared that oa the former .rebate on this subject
Christianity. Religioa and Christianity hiving been reefer en amendment bed been moved by the hon. member for
abse.l as tutu seceenzy baste of education, this hill proposed Northamptonshire (Mr. A. Stafford), which was seconded
an experiment of another kind. It was said that an instrue- In the noble bird (the Earl of Arundel and garret )• he
thri should nut be given to children which their permits did member for Arundel. After the noble lord there w s the
not approve of, but be maintained that it war the duty of boa. member fur Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), then the noble

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eta tof diaq Wet heft. geoshen of
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Iroullima:43 GrilifC'priShap:elielmThblirs rum' II:
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wesisatiee. (Laughter.) In his at Candlemas what
was termed the 1:0111111101I degree was aequired with a is.
moue of kw ukase. There lad bee. a lugs Themes I.
the asiaber of schools fee papa tosilts. "ad,ia eoaaequesee
of the adreatag, *Web Wore Whet \raisin Wilke-
- . .._