The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-05 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.

Mr. MIME asked in what state were our political rela-
tions with Greece ? 11. hoped we might receive speedy &c-
-omets of matters being adjusted there.
Lord PALMERSTON said it had been thought necessary
to make a peremptory demand there, and that the applica-
tion had been made without succeae. That demand having
been refused, reprisals were commenced, which consisted
in getting in pledge certain property and to hold it as
security for the demands. Them reprisals had been carried
to a certain extent. By the last accounts of the 18th of
February, he should think sufficient reprisals had been made
to chewer all demands. Meanwhile, the good GRIM of the
French government had been accepted, but the negotiator
Lad not arrived. The diplomatic relations between this
country and Greece had never been suspended. Mr. Wyse
had continued in diplomatic communication with the
artistry ; and, as a proof that no courtesy had been omitted
on our side, when the anniversary of the Queen of
Greece had arrived, our fleet saluted with all the honours.
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
In reply to Mr. Hymn,
Mr. HAWES promised to have the Sarawak papers laid
on the table immediately.
MERCANTILE MARINE BILLS.

In reply to Lord J. Maxxass,
Mr. LABOUCHERE sal I, he feared it would be impos-
sible to proceed wi.k the second readiog of them) bills before
Easter.
WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
Sir F. THESIGER said that a few days age the right
hon. gent! •man the Atborney-General had stated, in reply to
the ►on. member fur North S:affordshire, that although the
10th Geo. IV. had expired, there existed a power in West.
ern Australia to make laws for the peace, order, and good
government of that colony ; humourously adding that taxa-
. tioa was one of the essentials of good government. He
wished to ask whether that opinion had been deliberately
formed, or obi-tear it was an off hand answer to an unex-
pected question, and whether the hon. and Earned gentle-
man was prepared to abide by it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he never gave
as opinion in shot house which he was silt prepared to abide
by. Tee law which expired on the 10th of August wuonly
a temporary one, end save the crown the power to crewel a
conbeil for the order, peace, and good government, and he
t►ought that taxation was a part of good government.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that the question which he
had asked wee one very differens from that which the At-
torney-Gsni ral had answered. The question was, whether
the laws mode by the council were legal or illegal, and whe-
thee it had the power of texation ?
The ATTORNEY GENERAL again explained the an-
' swer he had given, and said he was still prepared to abide
by it.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH re•etated the questinn be bad
asked, and tail it had bren answered in an off hand .

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said indeed he did not an
ewer Man off-band manner. His boa. friend gave hint nctice of,
and he answered one question, whethe r the act bad rapired ;
and then the hon. Rentleman put four or five questions. His
answer wu, that the act of parliament having etpired, the
crown halving power to create a council, had exercised that
power.
Bir W. MOLES WORTH said be would now ask the hon.
gewleman the question he did put, had the council power
to make law. ?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL said if the hon. gentlemen
would permit him he would answer that question to-
morrow, when he could do so more satisfactorily.
Sir F. THESIGER—May I ask if the council has power
now to tax th•- colony ?

The ATTORNEY•GENERAL—That is the very ques-
tion tit. hon. gentleman proposed to me just now.

PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.
The h.m.e. having gone into committee on this bill,
8:r R. FERGUSON moved the 03141i011 of thiOnd or
" j ent octopi'. cy " clause.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the government bad no objection
to omit the clause if the Irish members w, uld consent.

A number of Irish representatives spoke in answer to this
appeal, but their judgments differed considerably as to the
advivability of emitting the clause ; and

Lord J. RUSSELL observed that under thecircumstances
the govirument would persist in retaining it.
Lord J MANNERS made some sarcastic remark, upon
the want of unaeinsity shown by the members for Ireland,
to whose verdict Lord J. Russell had appealed.
The discussion was prolonged for some considerable time,
and excited much diversity of opinion. Several liberal
representatives objected to the clause, cla the ground that it
would tend to enhance the already excessive power of the
land.ords; arid merry opposition 'members arrived at •
similar conclusion, wider the belief that it would encourage
the manufacture of fictitious votes.

Sir R PEEL said he was disposed to concur in the opinion
which the noble lord gave a quarter before five o'clock in
favour of the omission of this clause. (Hear,
hear.) At the same time he war in favour
of this extension of the franchise, and if he had
had an opportunity of giving his opinion on Friday
night he would have elven it is favour of the 61., and
easiest the 161. (Hear, hear.) But whilst he was in tav,ur
aside exteneinn of the franchise, he was disposed to think it
ought to be a bowl fide one, thereby fulfilling the intention
which the lu.slature bad in view. (Hear.) But above all
he was desirous of discouraging the abominable system of
creating fictitious voters, to the prevalence of which under
the 40.. freehold system he &reit uted not oily much
of that lenity and corruption which prevailed in re-
spect to el, .tors in Ireland, but many of the so-
cial evils which afflicted that country. (Hear, hear.)
But in the case of bona fide joint tenants, that was to say, it
those persons took • arm for which they paid WI. rent, and
were each of th• m bona fide repo, Bible to ;h. iandlord for
the rent, h., was wilting to admit that each of these should
is that ease be entitled to a vote. (Hear, hear.) Or, in the
case of partners in a cement, such ass paper manufactory,
war. re each of them bona fides contributed a cereal., am nia%
of capital f r the purpose of carrying it on, If each of them
was rated and each fairly represented, • p' rime of the re-
ap Insitvliits of the concern, he was willing to admit that
each should be entitled t e • vote. (Hear) But he must say
that he apprehended the greatest evil it they made each oc
copier Iraq was rated entitled to the vote. (II ar.) When
hon. gentlemen opposite argued this quests in, they could
not help sling " each tenant." (Hear, hear.) Tnat was
the tat which their own good sense and discretion suggested
The law of England and of Scotland was, that each bona
fide tenant being equally responsible for the rent sh,,uld be
entitled to vote. list they were not going to impose the re-
striction o• tenancy or joint tenancy, for they used the word
"occupant" in the bill as distinguished from "tenant,"
though in Voir Beseeches they could not help using the word" te.
sant." (Hear ) The hon. and learned gentleman said that the
payment of the rate would be sufficient security. He
greatly doubted that. (Hear, hear.) What would the
mount really be under an Si. rating ? It would be some
Si. Of 10.. ; and it would be the manifest interest of the
landlord to b. come responsible for the occupier, especially
on the approach of a Fetters' election, for the piyment of
the rate. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the scat and lot
voters, they knew how common it was for the candid de to
pay, not only the rate, but the whole of the arrears, in
order to quality the tenant to vote. (Hear, 11, ar ) He had
no e.oubt that landlords desirous of multiplyiug their polety
cal influence, would adopt means to provide for
the preen% of the rates. (Hear) Now, would it
be possible, under the word " occupancy," for a landlcrd
who is demote, of increasing his politiesl influence to dust.
Could he not say to the t. nem. " I accept your sous as
tenants with you, hu• I stipulate for the payment of the
rates, in order th.t 1 may inmate the number of votes."
111 r REYNOLDS said that in the county of Dublin where
there were 14 or 16 , spec manufactories, having from two to
four partners and others engaged in trade, the introduction
of the word tenant instead of occupier, would give rise to
groat diatulty and hardship.
rive HENLEY called the attention of the committee to
the power which this douse would give the boards of guar-
dians. He would take the case of a joint occupier., rated
at OW N less than ten votes were morierned. But sup-
reme the heart of guardians struck off a pound ? The whole
ten would be disfranchised. (Hear, hear) Was that a de.
sirable power to leave in the hands of board, of guardians?
Oa the expectation of an election it presented • temptatioa

which flesh and blood could not stand. (" Hear, bear,"
and laughter.)
The committee divided:
F the clause
Against it
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 3, giving the franchise le counties to persona
entitled to estates in fee, or in tail, or for life, or of the rated
value of 61.,

Sir F. THESIGER suggested that it would be desirable
to introduce the following words after the words "be it
enacted,' "that in addition to thou qualified by law to
register, or vote at any election of a knight of the shire in
virtue of any qualification not requiring occupation." Si-
milar words wire introduced in the first clause, and as he
understood it was not intended by the bill to interfere with
the existing county franchise, except as far as it depended on
occupation, he thought it would be desirable to introduce them
hue also.

air W. SOSIERVILLE haying woreatod, the words were
ordered to be imierted.

Mr. REYNOLDS looked upon Ude as cue of the most
dangerous clauses of the bill.
Sir F. THESIOER proposed to strike out the words
" or for his own life (sue-. tenant for life not being a lessee
or acelirnee of a lessee at a rent)." His object was, that
only p, moos who were entitled to the freehold of inheri-
tance, In contradistinction to those who only possessed it for
life, should be admitted in the rate book.

Mr. GRATTAN said that the guardians had nothing
whatever to do with the rata.

Aro r a few words from Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL,
. _ . .

Mr. HATCHELL submitted that the true construction of
the clause way that a party to be entitled to the franchise on
a 61. rate should be seised of a 61. holding for his own life
cam d out of the inheritance. Therefore they conceived
that the clause Intended to give owners of 61. holdings the
ri4ht to the franchise in counties, whether the estate were
limited to their own lives or whether they enjoyed the whole
inheritance.

Sir F. THESIGER thought at first that the wording of
the clause could be mode to bear the construction which he,
had put upon them ; but from the explanations of his hon.
acid learnt d friend he was satisfied of their true construction,
and he therefore begged to withdraw his objection. (Hear,
i hear ) However, he now begged to cali attention to the
amendment which he was about to propose, which was to
omit • I words after the word "hereditaments" in the 93rd
line, down to the words "or upwards." At present:they
stood, " which shell be rated in the last rate for the time
being under the said acts for the more effectual relief of
the destitute poor in Ireland es of the net annual value of
61. or upwards." He proposed to insert in their steed the
words, " over and above all rents and charges payable out
of or in respect of same." (Hear, hew.) The committee
would understand the object he had in view in omitting
these suede, and inserting the substituted ones. (Hear.)
They bad then come to an important question. Aster:eine,
as they all did, in the necessity of making up for the de-
ficiency in county constituencies in Ireland, and agreeing
that for such purpeee it was necessary to create a new class
of voters, the question then arose whether, in creating a
new freehold constituency in the counties, they wculd take
rating as the test of bona fide freeholders of certain value.
It was clear that any person who could get his name in-
serted upon the rate as at the value of 51. would be entitled
to be registered, and would be regi-tend, although he might
not have paid a single rate at the time of registration —(hear)
—because the six months' possession or receipts of rents pre-
vious to the 16th of July was the ground on which he was
entitled to be registered. (Hear.) A party was entitled to he
registered although he had not paid his rates, within the s:h
of ;musty and the 16th of July. The party might
have been on the rate before the sth of January, and there-
fore be bound to pay all rates before that date ; yet, inas-
much as he might not have been rated at all, no rates might
be due of him, and therefore he would be entitled to be re-
gistered. (Hear, hear.) Well. what was the condition of
such a party—a peresn possessing property? He took the
cue of a party who held for lives renewable for ever That
party might be rented for the full amount of property with-
out possessing one obi ling beneficial interest; yet it was
clear if he paid • rate of 51. he wonld be entitled to be
on the nee. They had seen the noble lord at the head of
her Majesty's government throwing the shield of conserva-
tism before the reform act when aessiled by the motion of
the honourable member for Montrose; whilst in a
few nights after they had the same noble lord
coming down and supporting • bill infinitely more destructive
to the Reform Act in Ireland than the measure introduced
by that hon. member. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir F. Thesiger)
assured the noble lord he viewed with great fear the course
he was pursuing ; because in it he was satisfied there was
great denser to their existing institutions, and that if be
proceeded in such a course—at one period letting the reins
loose, and anon tightening them, according to the exigencies
of the times—he would be ultimately dragged headlong by
those who were desirous of a downward tendency in their
institutions, and who were anxious of introducing more of
the democratic leaven into them. (Cheers from the
ministerial side.) lie assured the noble lord these
gentlemen were fully satisfied that he (Lord J. Russell) was
playing the part which would assist the object they had
decidedly and unmistakeably in view. (" Hoar, hear," and
rere wird cheers.) He (Sir F. Thesiger) viewed the present
measure with considerable a:arm, remise he saw it should
naturally entail a similar measure for England• (" Hear,
hear," and cheers.) He heard the senement cheered.
and adopted by the hon. gentlemen on the opposite side,
who felt it was the first movement in the direction which
they wished to pursue. (Hear, hear.) He called on the
noble lord not to deliver himself over to the views of those
gentlemen, who differed so widely in views as to the preser-
vation or their ancient institutions. lie called on him to
avoid those gentlemen : and he called on the committee of that
house to adopt his (6,r F. The-igees) view of the clause,
and decide if they were to create a new 61. coo tituency, to
make it a bona fide freehold to that amount, instead of
adopting the noble lord's fictitious and colourable project of
placing parties' names on the rate, and not requiring pay-
ment of rate to enei:le them to be placed thereon. i Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the proposal was to give the
right of voting to persons who held property of the value
of 51., and who were owners in tee, or in posses-ion of an
estate tor life to that amount. (Hear, hear.) lie declared
the proprssl was not open to the hon. and I d gentle-
man's objection. The hon. aid learned gentle-
man stated that a party might have no property
whatever, or it in possession of property it might
be mortgaged to such an amount as would render it va:uslees
to him; but it struck him ( Lord John Russell) that the
hon. and learned gentleman failed in making out his case.
(Hear. hear.) In his opinion the occupiers of SI. ratings and
those holdicg property of 51. annual value, were persons that
might safely be 'retooled with the franchise. ( Hear, hear.)
If the hen. and learned gentleman had said " do not touch
the reform bill, which provides a sufficient constituency,"
then he (L rd John Russell) could have understood his pro-
position, bat half the speech of the bon. and learned gentle-
man went to show that he concurred with his own govern•
ment in altering the Irish reform act. (Hear, hear.) The
question therefore, was not whether the Irish reform act
should be sltered,but whether the 301. occupation and freehold
qusl.ficatioa, mentioned by the hon. and learned gentleman.
ur the Martell,e proposed by her Majesty's government et
presentorould be the better mr Irelanth•(Hear, hear ) They
adopted the principle of the present bill, which assumed that
the franchise would be conferred on • suffici, nt number of
electors, and that these electors would be posse-sed of the
required amount of property. (Hear, hear.) That cues of
fraud might arise, he wee not prepared to contra .ict,
because in England and Scotland puttee were fraudulently
placed on the franchise who had no right to he on it, and,
therefore, he we. not going to maintain that such would not
occur in Ireland. However, the system was not open to
general objection—(hear, hear): on the contrsry, he be-
lieved the electors would have sufficient property
and would posses' a degree of intelligence and respectability,
sufficient to enable them to exercise their tight. (Hi u )
Load J. Manner,' the Attorney-0 I, Mr. Hamilton,
Mr. Reynolds, and Mr. Sadleir continued the debate, after
which the committee divided.

For the amendment
Against it

Some further amendments sure afterwards proposed to the
third clause, leading to a very miscellaneous debate, the con.
test bring principally carried on between Sir J. Jaunts and
Sir F. Tunßm.

The clause was ultimately adopted with some alterations.
Claims 4 and 6 were agreed to without a debate. On
claim 6 a long and contused disrussiou arose, in the course
of which a declaration was elicited from Sir O. GRIM that
the bill was not designed to interfere with any species of qua-
lification under which the (renal,* vs.@ at the present
m-ut conferred. Another division tools place on an amend-
ment, m ived by Mr. Oitooxx, which was negatived by a
majority of 170 to 83.
Mr. REYNOLDS moved an amendment, reducing the
rating qua ideation from ill. to 61. lie called n Mr. Hume,
and the English reformers, to support his motion, which
wo-ld much extend the electoral basis, and even, in some
iestnnces, prevent the constituencies being considerably re•
duced, as they would be if the 81. rating were established.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE felt compelled to oppose the
amendment. He recapituleted some of the reunions and cal.
calations that had led the government to ti: the quslifica.
tion as it stood is the bill, and declared their intention of
edit. tring lo it.

Mr. French supported the amendment, as did Sir T.
O'Brien and Colonel Rtwdon.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that the small borough constituen-
cies in Kilend were the great hotbeds of corruption. end
that the 8/. qualification would create a vast number of simi-
larly e.mtrected and corruptible electoral b Aire in Ireland.
To reduce the U. to 61. would so widen the basis as to elites
• cure of the evil to a very considerable degree.

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL pronounced the bill under the
qualtficahou a mockery or justice to Ireland.
The amendment was supported by Sir 1). Norms, Mr.
&Mit r, Mr. Maurice O'Connell, and Mr.

A die &ion was then called for, and the (gallery partially
Blared, wh. n

_
Lord CASTLEREAGII rzpressed his hope that MMe
member of the g,,vernnu Ist would condescend to give some
reply to .he argument. th-t had been addured by so sum
Iruh members an favour of the reduced qualifications.

Arum tom* oonvenation.

Lord J RUSSELL briefly explained the reasons which
had prompted the trarittua changes proposed by the bill; and
suppmtad the SS. rating qualification, on the Fround that it
was inflict. ntly moderate, and that a lower tang would bays
tnyoty.d a troublesome precedent for England.

Mr. Chri.topttsr, Mr. Roebuck, Mr. ll'eullafh. Mr.
Ki.nhaw, and Mr. Grogan continued the discussion, and
the cimmittee dhided—
F the amendment 9O
Against

Mr. GROGAN inevedfiTet r
sbevrend
ten should be included with the pour rate ate lip.aitesj for;
qualification. WI
injurious istumbrancerd J. RUSSELL t
upon hought
the thmeasudre.
e adition would form
The amendment was negatived wiihout a disisioc,, claim 6 was agreed te.
The CHAIRMAN then reported program, and the house sie.
ruined. The proceedings in committee to be cutinised to.
morrow (this day.)
was read a Reg
second time. ietration of Metropolitan Public Carriages gal
The Turnpike Road and Bridge Trusts (Ireland) Bilk
and the Titles of Religious Congregations (
Bill were read a second time. geothi,l
Mr. WAWN moved fora return of the revenue rs,'„4
by the commissioners eppointed under the 8 ilk 9 Vie ,e.f4
(called the N.weastle-upon-Tyne Port
act a'
ig „di year ; list of the commissioners new octal enied
under that set, stating their names and their qualification •
also the number of meetings of the heard, end the taw. of
the cammiesionen who have attended auk of `he me. int,
of ttr board, and where held, in each casir ; uount the
i debt °Trios by the commissioners, the date of c .ntreeting Me
Mille, and the rate of interest paid; also, • p.r.leol.r and
detailed account, in each year, of what hem beet elpst,i,i.
also a 'articular and detailed acaiunt of the mush r ant
names of the police employed under the act in e year, &Lel their places of resideniie; also, a lumen, sr tad dead
account of the buoys:and moorings laid down and %sir et;
distinguishing those laid down on the t u k, of tb0i,,,,,a
each of the boroughs of S uth Shields and iyuealoa-h;
and also, the names of the vessels that have bu, drier
on shore on the south side of the Tyne, in tre e
of South Shields, from the want of good end eutEcsai
mooring., from the let day of September, 1449, to I, in
day of March, 1850.
Mr. HEADLA.II opposed the motion, ou the mid that
it w.uld serve no public purpose.
The house divided, when there appeared_
Fur the motion ..... 14
Against it
6
But inasmuch u there were not ed members
decision was come to, and the house adjourned at a gutter
past 1 o'clock.

MR. TRPLAWNY was accidentally prerentid
attending in his place to vote fur Mr. 11 doWs law", 0,
Parliamentary Reform on Thursday tart.

PARLIAMENTARY COM M 1 T 1 HES.
GOVERNMENT Op ChTLON.—Yeattlday, on the re.
assembling of this committee, Mr. 1311411 e to the their,
Capt. Watson gave evidence relative to th. various marts.
martial upon prisoners for high thason. From Nepenthe,
to Dccember he considered tha• the civil pow:, was maot6.
cient, and that danger was to its apprehended if martial law
had been withdrawn. R• did on:: ma.* wish the vies. that
were taken upon this still .et by Lord Tntrinaton, 8 r Emir-
son Teonent, and Mt. limb r. Attsd on Mean oemsione
ut.der Colcnel Dr.ught's orders; and no prams were tried
and sentenced by aural'-martial who were not fully
fied. No mistake took plane as to those who w,r- shot.
Saw himself one prisoner shot, and " well shot" too.
(Laughter.)

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS FOR Tins
EVENING.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
SECOND READINOI.—OOIIIIOIII Inclowa* ; Cora rues
(Scotland) Bills._____

NOTICES OF MOTION.

EMIGRANT SHIP BAIL ORZT.—Tbe Earl of MOUNT.
CASHELL, to move an address fr—first, a mum a..
pipers connected with the " Earl Grey" emigrant .e.ie,
order to embr ice the despatches of the Lieutexant.Gnv•rt,r
of Sidney, with its enclosures; and the report of the Ezi•
gration Committee therein roerred to. &cord, the col.
municatirn from Earl Grey to his Excellency the L•ri L • 1.
tenant. Third, the evidence and report of Mr. 07 ens.
Law Inspector. Fourth, all correspondence fri mL. Et.
eellency the Lord Liewenent, addressed to E el 6—.1. 1.1:e.,
the rep' Tts of the Emigration Commissioners, addresset
Earl Grey. S•xth, the reports co the Poor Law
(Away and Senior, on this subject; wi.h their mirs7.4
notes. Seventh, copies of letter. from the Pour L. c-,y.
missioners, to the Belts. B iard of Guardians ; with ali
correspondence on the subject.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
NOTICES OF QUESTIONS.

TAXATION --4ESTEI; ACITKATIA7:iii;. W. MOLES.
WOR to ask the At•orney-Oeneral whether tee per.ca
appointed by her Majesty is make laws for It.. colony of
W. stern Australia caw at present legally levy mail on the
inhahitanta or property of that colony.
Sr. PATRICK'S Frxh.—Colonel CHATTERIUN, to ant
the Right Hon. the Secretary at War if a fund, call, d the
St. Patrick's Fund, in the 4th Ripe! Irish Dese, r.
has been arranged ; and, Irmo, it be has sny object:lu tI .ay
on the table the particulars of this arrimement, and h w the
sum of 3,0001. and upwards, belonging to that tusd, Las
been di...Aid and disposed of.
Leave or ABSENCL—TO Mr. KEOGH and Mr. C.
PEARSON, for a fortnight; the former on account if ;1.
Tate baithese, the latter Wm