The Express.
London, England, 1850-04-30 00:00:00

a the smaller of LI,OOO. (Hear, hair.)
_Then
be se kit mow SC IM soke hod widsdetswn
Yid • k the leads at es s* _*.w Ptah
It
'''"? Halt asbegeer) amid net dtlak
lit *the • be put Me • ocosikeehis
a I. ' seek °pastime . Het
• IA •
~„,• )1' is the la sate. ' future le'
bear
; 4 .'4 by away to gem • keit se,
still • t, •oa the whisk hes' • 00
Iblit/f 1" beat limit te ie. Hi
however, hrtehiratyle is say eta isolated itinii-41;_
give to tip es eneitaaity If he eisaileffelehi.lwel ow
money is hake sod be wait mill 110 Mr 0118
that wheel the deposit aseemiled to 1110 L the laberestr-AVER,
geese. (Hear.) Bat Heim Awe, they (the yam
mosottoreeidinamthe many *sobs tweets, nether**
0 t =edi Irthrlteell= fine dtbriiitiari
Tt u: Abi•
tear°lllWier t• e trellge ?saes In
of 1111. ; • Ilia ? Wonald be "II"
,verted has sad subjemt to Iberia ad fall of the
leafs as other Of agree, if the depositor chose
to fin eft diftelitkg three mild be no obleetioss; but when-
ever the saimateasie to 1001., it would he_ gain isvested.
Noll.lb• seared* whishtley bad had to deal is reference
to JAMS savings bake were of no trififag satonat. The
Owls alenuat of behead naiad ca ass mat of divides& for
soviets beaks deposits, by the essansieriowirs of the ma.
Haat kb sines the artabliehmout of these institutions
is 1817, had been 18,043,0001 s the total amount paid
and waited to the depositors had been 20,45.5 00014
being • different, of arras& of 2,000,0001. At . this
pretest moment the lateral receivable from the lands on
wawa of these deposits was less that that which was
due to the deptelton by 42,0701.0 year. This wee the
yearly lees' the country ,wes aufferieg bowl these Haase"
dons. (Hear, hear.) He proposed to redoes the rate of
interest paid by the government am this. deposits from
31. be to 31. per cent, and to redoes the rate allowed by the
settees banks to their depositors from 21. lk 44., which it
was now, to 21. lbs. This would OCCIWOO a very small
diminution a the depositors--iris.. 3s. 4d. in the 1001:
The anima Ices to the depeatar of 101. (Foetid be 4d. a year ;
to the depositor of 201., 8.1. a year ; of 601., ls. Bd. ; sad
of 1001., as la hod said, as. 4d. a year. This would be the
intent of the-annual lam to the depositor. It would be
seen then that:the loss to the depositors individually
would be vary trifling, indeed, while the country would he
relieved from a very heavy lose, sad the mamas would be
afforded of providing for the payment of the treasurer es
well as tor the expenses of maaarassent. His proposition
geserally wee that treasurer thread be appointed by the
government, whosiseuld take all mangy and pay all moneys;
that the deposits should be limited to 1001., and that the
Letterset paid by the government should be reduced fame
31. be. to 31, per cont., end that paid to the depositor@ from
21. 18s. 4d. to 21. lbs. lie mow came to the question of
Handy societies, and with regard to them he pro-
posed to onset that no further monies should he in-
vested by Ham direct to the owamissiosers for the reduction
of the national debt, accept so much as might have been re-
ceived previnue to the purring of the act for regulating
friendly aseaciatioa. At present no new society could invest,
incept at savings bank isterese, but the older social, s were
not eo coofintel, and there was • less to the public In eons.-
q of 20.0001. • year, and as • trustee, the investment
being in all such cams required to be in the name of the
child, who, when of sufficient age, would be allowed to with-
draw it. There was coo only other provision to which he
would call attention—that wee an 'vended power of grant-
ing annuities, a matter to which his h..u. friend the somber
fir Stroud, and other bon. aentlemen, attached much int-
' portant*. (Hear, hear.) At present, under the act of
1833, a pavan might purchase ma annuity of not less than
41. by instalments, and if the payments were not kept ug,
or the party died before the annuity commented, the matey
paid was returned. To cover this contingency, the rate of
premium was So high, that no great number of annuities
had been granted. Ho did not propose to inoofer• with
the regulations as to existing autunite, but to give •
power to purchase annuities in future under other conditions.
In the now 'acuities he did not propose to give • power to
purchase by instalments, but to counteract that he proposed
to reduce the amount of the lowest antauify which might be
purchased to 11. The mode in which this would work would
be that the party desiring to perches* would accumulate in
the raving* bask a sum of money sufficient to purchase the
annuity of 11, which purchase would be • complete transac.
Linn—the sum would be paid down at once, and the annuity
of 11. • year would commence, and the party might go on
accumulating money in the s hangs book until he bad Duel
cient to purchase another annuity of 11., and so on in like
manner to 301. This would enable ennuives to
be purchased without any risk on either ed•
Leather matter had been pressed upon his attention,
which for some time he had thought it impossible to effect—
vie , that of providing for the payment of • suss of money
at death. That was, if • person wished to provide • sum to
be paid to his family at his death, he should be enabled to
do so; and to prevent the risk to the government of insuring
bad lives in this way, it hail been suggested th .t when a
party purchased the right to the payment of • sum of money
to his family at his death, he should be obliged to purchase
a deferred annuity on his own or some other gad life.
He proposed to insure the government against lora in this
palladia. He also proposed that if the party chose to pro-
vide an annuity for his wife or children, he should be at
liberty to do so, and that the tame should be payable at the
time of his death. (Hear, hear.) There were some °thee
provisions of no great importance to which he would not now
advert, because the bill would be before the house, and he
would be happy at any future stage to afford such inform.-
tion IS might he required on all its wine.. He hoped he
had in • great measure obviated all difficulties, and renuered
the measure efficient. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME ciliated the pest oonnexicn of the govern-
meat with the savings barks as bang a delusion. The
at puckers were not secured from fraud, and yet the public
suffered from very considerable losses, arena from the
expenses of management and the depreciation of the funds.
Trio bon. member proceeded to criteria various details of
the proposed ateasere, and objected io particular to the
introduction of a large branch of lit* assurance, business
which it app•ared to contemplate.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY showed that in former years as
enormous number of buying and selling transactions had
taken place with the savings bank funds in Consols sod
Exahrquer bills, which were apparently undertaken to serve
some goverment purpose, but bad resulted in a loss of two
millions upon the total accounts. He icquired whether any
check was to be provided in future agatost • repetition of
thee minim. stock-johhing.
Mr. 8. CRAWFORD complained that no hope of reeitu•
tion was held out to his unfortunate constituents of Rochdale
of the large mime lost through the dishonesty of the savings
bank actuary. The depositors bad been deluded by the
semblance of a double responsibility, first from the trustees,
and secondly from the government, both of which had
tuned out tenacious.
Me. FAGAN also argued the pant in the interest of the
depositors, who, he alleged, bad committed their savings, as
they believed, to the safe keeping of an institution for
whose solvency the government had made themselves
'Tsible.
r' OROOAN followed on the same aide.
Mr. BLANEY regretted that the amount of interest al-
lowed upon deposits had ,beem reduced. As one of the ra-
pping public, he should hays beta willing to stand the rick
.of the loss for the asks of affording to the bumbler depositors
il better remuneration for their savings. His objection ex-
tended also to the narrower limitation now proposed for the
eamtimus of deposit allowed to any individual in the
'eviler brake.
Sir J. JOHNSTONE appealed to the government on
behalf of the depositors in the Scarborough savings back.
Mr. H. HERBERT made some general observations upon
the foregone administration of the savings banks. Hs con.
tended that the government were morally and legally re.
@possible kr the money last to the depositors through the dis-
honesty of the refinish, and complained that he had bee&
" does " by the Clutacellor of toe Euehequer, in Machos
to the appointment of Oa original committee on swinge
banks, and that government hai done all it could to prevent.
lever,. Ho dwelt upon the negligence of the National
Debt Commiesionere, who, to his own knowledge, pared are
counts abounding with gross errors, sad upon the incapacity
of Mr. Tidd Pratt, who had been proved in a court of low
ties not to understand the law under which he acted. What,
he asked, was the use of preaching economy to the poor,
when they were to see the earnings of years swept h ape.
tasty away by official fraud ? In ref to toe Irish
cam, as they had already beta completely made out, he saw
no use in the inquiry of the proposed committee.
Mr. SAHEBS wished that the government interference
for the pr 'action of the depositors had bad offered sooner.
Col. THOMPSON laid the claim of the defrauded deposi-
tors as against the country, rather than the government
and toasted that the country would not compiaia it called
upon to repay the Ina.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied. He
of to allow the savings banks deposits to be vested at
pleasure in Exchequer bias, ea the prineiple that any increase
a the floating debt wee impolitic. As to the comes of default,
the ormamittai eppoiated last sesame would be revived, in
order to receive the report drawn up upon the sulject ; and
until then any opinion toughie, the liability of the govern.
ment would be premature.
Leave wee then given to bring is the bill.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
Sir G. GREY, in moving the micoad reading of the He
closiutical Commimion Ball, said that it would he necessary
for him to make a short statement to the house of its
&leek, sad the main provisions which it contained. In
1847 • select committee was appointed to inquire Harr the
composition and management of the ecclesiastical cemmiesion
far Ragland and Weiss. That sommittee, which was
appointed at • late period of the semien took some ',Worm.),
but did not report their opinion to the house. The com-
mittee was reappointed in the session of 1848—they took a
great deal of additional evidence—and in August of that
year they made the present report. That re-
poet, after referrieg to the coign of the cede
asetioal commission, proceeded to state what the first
permanent ecclesiastical commission was, and that a groat
change was made in its composition in 1840, when the
number of commissioners wee increased from thirteen to
forty-nine, consisting of the two archbishops, five me ethers
of the government, all the bishops of England and Wales,
three deans, six common law and ecoleseistioal judge., and
eight permanent lay commissioners, six of whoa were
eppointal by the crown, and two by the Archbishop of
Canterbury. The report, after adhering to ulna
points COSISOCSOd with the composition of the commission,
went en to say that evident* had been takers of the
actual working of the commission thus composed; and it
was found that it was liable to objection—that it was UM
large for the convenient Hamada of basieess—that the re-
sporasibility was too much divided—that the attenteace was
untertaic--and that, coosopeently, there was • difficulty in
preserving the timid of business. and a larger share of re-
sponsibility tell upon the of of the commission
than should be the MM. la eomesqueaes of these

that the

objeetless, the
..et tbe cosamisaillPrabasabe
p Ilfileio. of duties should take place—
r`aaglisea Ikea. eldasiasthigt
proper"l"l:74.l 814614
The isouthassie"-ittee
z%rsidol that seer* Ansa be tine body who would
*.souls 'important questions Minting the M-
unn' of the chunk; and tint there should be soother, sad
• Miran Mmutitten, to manage the property of the Gout-
wisdoms. They rummaged that there should be three
• gemodebosers—two ed them to be sominatod by the
Mae NA nut by the Juddishop of Canterbury. They
that heir mashes *Maid constitute a quorum for
aaaagamsat 01 the and that the presence of
4sast *el* esemmhe diould be necessary for this
✓upose. mrs- weft dle- Snell tososemendatioss of the
missaities. Her /talitety's govensamst agreed with the re-
port of the Nutt** that the present compoition of the
IMO iudavoursida to the MY of tho
.11IPPWMIltiloIrgrOgso 021fOstoth to them; blifs kir Sal -AO
he ,ou gamut anderralso in , the , mint the
groat find *portent batiks whlek through the
agony of the commission, had bees **alerted on
the country. by augoosting the number if churches, and
Miklos bettor Nubian for the gars of souls and the
spiritual &Mita** of the people. Mar Majesty's govern.
moat ogresed with the committee that it wee &stratus there
should be • arse undivided and direct responsibility ha the
masispaavat of • great portion of the tisanes which
eel devolved ca the commissioners. The present bill,
burefere, was eseeatislly founded on the nommen.
lotions of the .oriminitters, though in minor details
there might be some diffenter: The main recom
laudation of the cosuaitue wee that which related
to the division of the present commission, with a larger body
fur the consideration of grave interests affeciing the church,
and &smaller simusattee appointed for the management of
the proposty. Some doubt had arises se to the naming of
the wobt " sommittao," bat till he had hoard the doubt
suggested some tiro* ago, it would never have struck him
that this ersamittee was to be anything elm than &committee
of the general body. It was not to have a separate
eziettorm from the general body, but was to be a committee
of the
bey
body. That view of the qaestion was un-
armed by the paragraph of the report which proposed that
tour mambas should form • quorum, but that for this new
pose the presence of a paid cominissioaer should be seas-
eery. The bill proposed to create • small committee to be
called the estates eoesaittee, whine duties were defined in the
Ito clause. They would have "to consider all matters is
any way relating or noisiest to the sale, purchase, exchange,
letting, or management, by or en behalf of the Ecclesiastical
Conunimionen for Ragland, of any lands, tithes, or horedita.
meats, and to devise such measures touching the same as I. hall
appear to such committee to be most expedient, and to report
fully thereupon to the said Ecclesiastical Commissioners ia
writing under the hands of three members of such C 0...
mittoe, of whom two or more shall be church estates com-
missioners." By the 10th clause it was provided " that the
said ecclesiastical commiseioners at any time and from time
to time may refer any other matters to the consideration of
the said estates committee, or by an instrument under the
common seal may authorise the said committee, or the said
church estates commissioners, or any two of such coot
missies's, to do and complete any act within the power
of the said ecclesiastical commissioners, except affixing
the said common seal to any instrument, without reporting
or rogueing fur her instructions from the said ecclesiastical

commissioners." It was also proposed in the bill, in accord-
ance with the rieommudation of the committee, to appoint
those commissioners, who should be called church 'states
commissioners ; two of them to he eppointed by the Crown,
and the third by the Archbishv of Canterbury. Of these 3 it
was proposed that the first cognesiesiosser, to be appointed by
the crown, should receive a salary not exceeding 12001. a-year,
and that the commissioner appointed by the archbishop
should receive • salary of 1,0001. a year. I3otS were yr be
paid out of the funds of the commiwioners. These church
estates commissioners were to form an essential part of the
estates committee, of which they were to be perm
members. But it wee proposed to give power to the stela
nautical commissioners et the commencement of every year,
or from year to year, to add two of their own number to these
three, one of whom at least should be a layman. It was
further proposed that the first estates comecissiocer should
preside at all the meetings of the 'states committee, or in his
absence one of the other church estates commissioners. It
is proposed that of these three should form a quorum of the
estates committee, of wcoca two at least must be church
estates commissioners, and then two must concur in and
logo every report of the estates committee. I: was provided
that two of the church estates commissinners must be
present at every meeting of the ecalesiestieal com-
missioners. There were two poetical .rs in woich the bill
differed from the recommendation of the committee. The
committee recommended that the three commnsionirs should
be paid. But in the present bill it war proposed that only
two of them should receive salaries, because it was thougnt
desirable to encroach as little as p *giblet on the funds of the
ecclesiastical CoolllliNilollf4 ; and it was believed that, in
the first instance, at least, a person might be found to dis-
charge the duties of the third commissioner, who woula not
require any palely is resprct of the duties he might
render as one of the church estates e mmiesioners.
But if there was any objection to this part of the bill i:
could be urged more properly in committee than in the pre-
sent stage. Toe other point in which the bill differed from
the recommendstiens of the committee was this—that the
bill required the presence of the two paid commissioners
logical of one, in order to constitute a quorum. The ob
jest of this change was to insure a more direct resp .nsibi-
lity in those who were entrusted will the management ot the
. . ,

property of the commissioners. The decision of the estates
committee is not to be final ; they were not to decide any
questions referred to them, but were to refer them to the
lull hoard, who, he bad no doubt, would pay every attentirot
to the recommendations and euggestiens which they received
from the committee. He anticipated that the recommenda-
tions of that committee, contiltring tie manner in which :t
was to be cumposi d, would be entitled to so much weight,
that they would not be overruled by the general boJy.
There was also • provision of • minor nature re-
lating to the mode of appointing a chairman.
The bill provided for the sepiration of the office
of treasurer and secretary, and experience confirmed th
wisdom of that recommendation, for he thought that
the defalcations of the late secretary could not have occurred
—at least, could not have taken place wi,h so much facility,
and such little chance of detection, if he bad not combined
the office of treasurer and secretary in his own person.
(lieu.) It was new proposed to impose the duty et
treasurer on the two paid church estates commmis,ioners.
These were the main previsions of the bill with regard
to the composition and management of the commission.
There were other provisions in the bill of great importance,
which were rot contained in the recommendations of the
committee. The first was that which enabled the ecelesi-
swivel commissioners to fix the value of the incomes of the
archbishops and bishops appointed after the Ist of Janusrv,
1848. It was considered very desirable that they should
have fixed instead of fluctuating annual incomes, a as to
remove the uncertainty which existed under the present
system. Then was also a clause in the bill, as originally
introduced, the object of which was to consolidate the
episcopal and common funds, so as to render the joint fund
available for all purposes which might conduce to the e
ciency of the church. (Hear, hear.) An important alters
Lion was made in this Clause in the Hours of Is irds, into the
particulars of which he would not then advert. Bat he
might state that it was the intention of the government to
give notice in committee of a clause as a sub
stitute fur the one introduced into the bill by
the House of Lords with regard to these two
funds, and which would be in substance similar to
the one which the bill originally contained. (Hear, hear )
With regard to deaneries, a clause was introduced into
the bill to settle a doubt which had arises with regard to
the amount of endowments and mutmentatiets which the
ecclesiastical commissioners were at liberty to make in dean-
eries, under what was technically called the old foundation.
Before the time et Henry VIII. the deans had separate
estates attached to the deaneries, which were transferred to
the ecclesiastical commissioners, who were subsequently em-
powered by law to increase the incomes of deans to 1,0001.
per annum, which was the limitation. However, that mu
thought not to apply to deaneries on the old foundation;
and it was under these oircumstances that the Deans of Wells
end Salisbury were appointed at incomes of 1,5001. per an-
num. Subsequently to their acceptance of the deaneries, a
cue arose, in the course of the legal investiaation of which it
appeared that the eeclesiutical commissioners did not possess
the power to increase incomes to 1,5001., and that an income
of 1,0001. • year applied to deans appointed under
the new as well as under the old foundation.
Under these circumstances her Majesty's government
. _

consented to introduce a clause into tie bill * whisk all
doubt was removed. The clause effected a material alter.
ation in the bill : it was introduced In the House of LosJe,
and Linehan the incomes of all deaneries, with the exception
of York, to 1,0001. a year. Now under these circumstances
he begged to give notice of bis intention to introduce a
clause which would have the effect of restoring the bill to
the state in which it was previous to going into the
House of Lords. The Deanery of Salisbury became vac tat by
the death of the incumbent dean, and the exception was
intended to apply to the deanery of Wells. He should also
state it was the intention of her Majesty's government
to propose another clause in referee'. to dears who
were compelled to reside eight months in every twelve in their
deaneries, and whose cure of souls did not exceed the limits
of their deaneries lg more than three miles. (Haar, hear.)
Mr. HORSMA said the ball which the right hen. gentle-
man had quoted from, and moved the second reading of,
was an extremely important *se. Whim they considered
the nature of the commission and the drags likely to follow
from its good or bad administration, be was certain there
were few measures brought before the house this session that,
in the eyes of those who felt the church was worthy of being
preserved, were of such importance. (Hear, hear.) The
easunre was introduced by her Majesty's government,
who, it would seem, had made great concessions toconcillate
forbearance, but which concessions, however, did not accJm-
pliag their purpose. (Hear, hear.) The worst provisions of
the bill they before them were inserted in the House of
Lords; whilst the best were compromised on the part of the
government, with a view to avoid opposition. For himself
he should say he did not feel that fur the hill in its present
shale the government were responsible any more than a god-
father was responsible for the features of a very ugly child.
(" Hear, hear," and laught.r.) They had charged them-
&Av.@ with its paternity ; but yet it was not
their own. (Hear, bear.) The episcopal commiesion
had long sines been condemned by general opinlon—(heer
hear)—and the bill then before the house was the amount of
concession which the bishops were prepared to make—not in
the shape of a goveremmt bill, but as the best, under all the
eircumatenews of the case, which they felt could De tarried.
N .w what were the defects of the commission, as also the
improvements sought to be made? lie would refer to the
sioseah of the right hon. gentleman himself, in which he (Sir
G. Grey) &depleted that the first defect of the commission
consisted in Is great sine. (Hear, bear.) The sionunimeon,
originally consisting of 13, was enlarged to 49; theretem.