The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-01-10 00:00:00

cannot admit the correctness of the charge that the
examination of the meters have been neglected, as they
employ persons for this speCial duty; and in order that
they may be perfettly-competent, they are instructed at the
works of the company, and not allowed to undertake
the examination Of the meters until they have been reported
to the engineer as fully gualified. Now, in order to
prove whether this is a correct statement of the Gas Com-
pany, I shall first refer to Mr. King's own statement, made
at Compton-house, in the presence of Mr. Smith, a gentle-
man connected with that establishment, and /,`
Mr. King's deputy. Mr. Xing tat
the men the compan
in any way ned

his opinion that Mr. Taunton was a perfectly honourable
man. He agreed to all the teats, and all the proposals, and
he evinced great satisfaction that they had appointed a
man evidently so well up to the mark, entrusted with a
business which he understood so thoroughly, and which he
performed seemingly, as I say, to Mr. King's own satisfac-
tion. Now, 'With regard to the inspectors of the
meters, it seems to me that, notwithstanding all the
engineering evidence, they must have neglected their duty.
Out of forty-four meters which were tested, thirty-one were
found to be fast, more or less, twelve were found to be slow,
more or less, and only one correct out of forty-four—and
that:was short of water. When it was filled up to the water
mark, with a proper quantity, as it ought to have been, then
it went 251 per cent. too fast. Those are results to whidh
there can be no denial, It requires no engineering know-
ledge to comprehend them. In one establishment, the
errors ranged from 91 per cent, slow, up to 10 per cent.
fast ; that was in the establishment of Mr. Macfie, a
Well, now, let us just come to
calculatewhat the effect of that which I have stated
may be upon all the meters of Liverpool.
It is stated by Mr. King in his report, that there are 29,000
metes in the town. Now, if it only happens that there
should be one in forty-four correct, how, many would there
be right in the whole of Liverpool ? Out of 29,000 meters,
but 650 only would stand correct. With regard to the
overcharges of water, and undercharges of water, 183 were
examined, and of these seven were correct—and it must be
borne in mind; that a great many of those were discovered
to have been visited and regulated by the gas company's
inspectors, only a day or two previously to Mr. Taunton
visiting them. Now, if the inspectors of the meters
employed by the gas company, attempt to regulate the
meters, and do not make them right, either from ignorance
or from neglect, „why, surely, it is but reasonable that some
one should be placed in a position to see that the meters are
made correct, and that they are properly attended to.
(Hear, hear.) Now, there is a case in Dale-street, to
which Mr.. Taunton drew my attention particu-
larly, a house at the corner of Moorfields, and
if it has not been altered since, I should
be glad if any gentleman would see it for themselves, where
there is a meter in which the service pipe was placed directly
across the screw, so that it ewes impossible the fact could
be ascertained whether the meter was undercharged or
overcharged; in fact a test could not be made without
cutting the pipe. If, therefore, such things as these are in
existence, it surely requires some one to be appointed to
superintend them, and to see that they are made correct.
Now, with regard to the testing of the meters, I distinctly
put it to Mr. Clegg—after I had heard that Mr. King was
going to make ,an objection to the mode--while he was in
the room giving his evidence, whether the mode of testing
the meters most proper to be adopted, was to test them
where they stood, or whether they should be cut off and
taken to the gas committee's apparatus. Mr. Clegg dis-
tinctly stated that Mr. King knew of a better than that, and
he said the most correct mode which could be adopted was
to take the meter on the spot where they stood. And this
is only reasonable. If a meter is out of level in one way or
another, or if it is undercharged or overcharged
with water, and that you cut it off and remove it, it will be
naturally difficult to place it again in just th.i same level.
Therefore, as the consumer is charged with what goes
through the meter as it stood, it is only fair that the meter
should be tested as it stood, in order to come to a clear and
accurate return of the results. With regard to the question
of the quality; it is of course. impossible for me to go into
details, because it is a question of so scientific a charicier,
that I must leave it between the two engineers, But I may
state here, that upon the point of the quality, I am sorry
the gas company did not treat that portion of the report
with more consideration, as it appears to me to be exceed.
ingly important with reference to that matter. It is
stated in our report that we have some reasons for believing
that gas has been supplied of an inferior character and qua-
lity. We referred to the fact of the revenue having increased
to a large extent, while at the saute time the cost of
the manufacture had been so nearly the same, jwhich
we conceived, corroborated the suspicions entertained
by Mr. Clegg. Well then, sir, in their reply they give us
figures to deal with. No w, what are the results of
these figures, Mr. Mayor ? In 1849 their rental was
£91,231. In 1854, it increased to £126,112. Now, in
1849, it was stated that the number of tenants was 23,486.
The cost of manufacture per tenant was £1 18s. The
rental of each tenant would amount to £3 17s. 6d. In
1854 we find the cost of manufacture reduced to 1 16s. 6d.
per tenant. We find the tenants then paying £4 7s. 61.
each, so that while the cost in manufacture:has reduced, the
amount which each tenant paid has increased. Well, now
between the years 1849 and 1851, there was an increase in
the number of tenants from 23,486 to 28,979, making 6493
increase. The increase of revenue during the same period
was, according to the figures I have already quoted,
£34,881. Now, it is a most extraordinary thing that in
1854 the additional number of tenants was paying £6 7s.
each, while in 1849, the tenants were only paying £3 17s.
6d, Therefore, I think the committee have had very good
grounds for coming to the conclusion they adopted in refer-
ence to the quality of the gas. I would ask Mr. Alderman
Cooper, or any other gentleman, a director of that
company, why the company did not account for that fact.
I think they ought to have paid particular attention to
that part of the report, and to that point in especial, and to
have satisfactorily explained it in such a way as would be
intelligible to the public, and to the council. It is only in
that way that we can account for the overcharges in bilis.
We find iu almost every instance that bills have increased,
notwithstanding the reduction in price. Instead of the
numbers who were examined by the committee, I believe,
sir, that if the committee had sat every day for three or
four hours, as they did, up to the present day, we would
have had quite a sufficient number of consumers before us
to have kept us fully occupied. The excuse which the
company have made with regard to the frost seems to me to
be entirely out of all reason. Is it possible that the frost
continued up to the 30th of June ? We all know
that in the early part of 1855 there was a very
hard frost, the same as in 1854, and therefore similar
circumstances would of course apply to each. But the
bills up to the 30th of June, the quarters corresponding in
each year, showed the same results. Therefore, to say that
the increase, was caused by frost during the quarter, will
not, of course, account for the increase of hills during that
time. Another point which the company has referred to is
in reference to the days in one quarter being longer than in
another. Bat tho committee have not overlooked this fact.
Wherever there was a difference in the number, or in the
lengtheof the days, the committee always accounted for it
in their calculation, and Ido not Oleic, indeed, there is
any point connected with the question which we did over-
look, nor that if the witnesses load been examined by Mr.
King, or by any of the gas company's officers, they would
have had any other questions put to them but those which
were put to the witnesses for the purpose of eliciting the
ti nth. Now, Mr. Mayor, the company state that the reduc-
tions in the price of gas have always been made voluntarily.
Let us refer to the facts with regard to that question. They
make this statement in reply to our having stated that all
their reductions-were made in consequence of pressure froin
without. They deny this, and they give us a list in their
reply of the reductions which took place, and the causes
and consequences. Well now to begin with 1844, the
price of gas in that year was 75., in 1841 the price was
10s., or Bs. 6d , according to the quantity consumed. The
Dale-street Company reduced their price to Bs. and 7s.
The Queen-square Company did likewise, which had also
previously charged-10s. This was done in consequence of
a deputation preesing on them to do so, and one of the
companies having done so, the other company found it
necessary, unless they would lose their customers, to follow
the example. The Dale-street Company sought to intro-
duce a bill into parliament to raise additional capital, and
also to enable them to distrain their tenants without the
intervention of a magistrate • to charge for the removal of
gas pipes and other matters of that kind. The consequence
was that there was an opposition to the bill, upon the part
of gas consumers, and I believe Mr. Radley, who was not
at that time a shareholder, was one of those who most
actively opposed. The result was that a reduction was
made from 73. to Gs. In 1844 and 1845 there were two
other companies in the field, one, the Guardian Gas
Company, and the other the Gaslight Company. The
consequence was, that, in 1845, you find immediately
two reductions, from 6s to 6s, and down to 4s 6d. Well,
then in 1855, when they made the reduction to 4s, within
the borough, we find that it was also in consequence, no
doubt, of pressure from without, as, we steted-
1.- Alderman Cooper : Nothing of the sort. (Laughter.)
_

Ed;irards,

distinctly that

sent to e

mine the meters did not

iponthE

—.win what effect the water would have
This statement was made in consequenc
being discovered in the

large overcharge o
that eatAblishment

meters of

and it will; no doubt,

be in the

e reeollee-

r. King sent for and questioned
strict upon that point, and Mr.

neover,

he did not wish them to know

sugar refinery

g about it,

1, it was only haring,

oy nuance,
Mr. Taunton t

from the shop'

to give details of

everal eia-

minatione of the I
dearly

which; he coniende4-;h;;;I

- et and ignorance of the Company's in-
spectors. He ridicule's the idea that the 'company have
I never clainied the exclusive right of supplying meters,
and that there are many persons who use their own
meters. • He remarks, "In what part of the town of
Liverpool this class of consumers may reside I know not,
for, out of the number I visited, I found but one that
claimed the meter as his own, and that was a Mr.
Kane, of —, Dale-street, carver and gilder ; it was a ten
light' meter, and was overcharged with water to the
amount of 80 cubic inches. This would be but a small
per tentage—one out of lOW' Mr. Taunton thus con-
cludes his communication :—" The editor of the Journal
of Gas-lighting (a paper that has from the first espoused
the eaase of the Liverpool Gas Company), asked for and
obtained from the meter-tester for the district south of
London a table of testings from June to Sept. 29, 1855,
to be published in that paper on the 10th of December
last, when the editor in question found that they fully
established the accuracy of the Liverpool testings, then
only a garbled report appeared, but which was given
entire in the Gaa and Water 7imee of the 15th of that
month."

Mr. Kitchen, as chairman of the gas committee, rose
and said--Mr. Mayor, I rise to move the confirmation of
the, proceedings of the gas committee, and in doing so, I
apprehend that this involves the passing of the resolu-
tions which you have all had submitted to you in the cir-
cular sent to you, and which it will, therefore, be
unnecessary for me to read, as you all have them. in the
first; place, Mr. Mayor, I should wish to tender my
acknowledgments to the council for having appointed a
day for the express purpose of discussing this question,
and I do trust that whatever may be the result, it shall be
such as will be generally satisfactory to the public. After
all the pains which the committee have taken to arrive at
the truth, I trust the council will treat the subject with
that consideration which I am confident the importance
of the subject deserves. When the report of the gas
committee was first presented to the council, I stated in
detail a great many points upon which the committee had
arrived with reference to that report, and, therefore, I
do not propose, upon the present occasion, to travel
over: the same ground—l propose more particularly to
confine my observations to the reply which has
been sent by the gas company. In the first place, Mr.
Mayor, the gas company complain of the circulars being
sent round, for the purpose of eliciting complaints from
the consumers. Now, sir, in doing so, it must: be recol-
lected that the gas committee came to the determination
of sending about 100 Circulars to each ward, so as to get
as fair a return as possible Pram the consumers. The
circulars were delivered by the police, and it is not true,
as •is stated in the gas company's reply, that they were
collected by the police. The objection was made by
Major Greig, that the police had changed their districts,
and consequently, as they had no list of the parties to
whom the circulars were delivered, they did not know
whom to call upon to get the returns. But there were
other reasons why the returns were not so numerous as
might have been expected. In general, the lists of the
parties to whom circulars were sent, were made out from
the parliamentary lists of voters. It turned out, that
many of these parties were freemen, and not
gas consumers at all. A great many had removed,
and a number did not get the cireulars delivered
to them, until after the time specified for their
return, and therefore no doubt these parties thought it
was too late to return them. However, 293 circulars
were returned. Now, Mr. Mayor, 1 shall have to trouble
the council with a good deal of details, and I hope if I
draw largely upon the indulgence of the council in doing
so, they will pardon me upon the present occasion,
because it is necessary, in order that the council should
come to a fair conclusion, that all the facts should be
brought fairly before them, and I intend to confine myself
strictly to those facts which are within my own know-
ledge. Of the 298 circulars returned, I find that 252 were
decidedly in favour of appointing a meter inspector.
Thcre were 251 complaints of irregularities of meters, so
that it seems to me that out of these returns a very large
majority, undoubtedly, is in favour of a person, an inde-
pendent person, being placed between the company and
the censumers, so that the irregularities might be checked
in regard to meters, showing a desire upon the part of
the consumers, as I look upon it, only to pay for what
they actually receive, neither more nor less. Then,
Mr. Mayor, the next thing, I think, upon which
I should remark, is with reference to the meters. The
gas company complain that the mode of testing adopted,
was not a correct one. Now, Mr. Mayor, when Mr.
Taunton arrived here, the committee wished me to intro-
duce Mr. Taunton to Mr. King for the purpose of setting
him at work to test the meters. I went with Mr. Taun-
ton to Mr. King. and after a long conversation with the
latter, we went down to where the testing apparatus was
placed, and Mr. King went through several experiments,
but the meters did not act correctly, owing, as he said, to
their having been just painted ; but the following day was
fixed, when Mr. Taunton was to take his meters to the
gas company, and the meters went through a most severe
test—the most severe Mr. King could possibly put them
to—and after testing, and cross-testing, it was ultimately
decided, and a test agreed upon. I may here observe
with regard to the testing that Mr. King was anxious, in
the first instance, that Mr. Taunton's meters should
be tested by him after he had completed his testing
of the meters. I immediately objected to this course,
and stated that I considered the most satisfactory
course would be to agree upon the tests before the
commencem-nt. Mr. Taunton agreed upon this, and,
ultimately, Mr. King gave way, and the first testing of
the meters which took place was the Compton-house. I
think there are eight or ten meters there. The first meter
tested was a one hundred light metre. It had been placed
there upon the 26th of December, 1854, so that it had
been there only about six months. The meter was out of
level, it was overcharged with water, and the result of
the testing was, that it was 7t per cent fast. This
meter, like others, went through a most severe testing—
the most severe which Mr. Edwards, the deputy of Mr.
King, could possibly suggest. Several cross-tests, and
Mr. King himsqf, when he came down to see it, asked
questions of Mr. Edwards whether such and such different
tests had been tried, all of which, and even more than he
suggested, had been tried. I believe the same course was adopted in regard to ail the meters visited by Mr.
Taunton. Every suggestion which the officers of the
company made he adopted in his tests, and, therefore, in
my opinion, there was nothing left undone which could be
done in order to secure a complete and correct return of
the testing. Well, sir, after that, I think the meters of
the Town-hall were the next which were visited,
and, like the others which had been previously tested, they
were all fast. I happened to be down to hear the result
when Mr. King came. I can confirm what Mr. Taunton
says in his report, that Mr. King did say that if the meters
were in his favour he should say nothing about it, but that
if the meter went against him he should make an objection
to the mode of testing. I immediately recalled Mr. King's
attention to the expression which he had used, and requested
him, if he objected to the mode of testing, that he should
immediately make the objection, and that if he showed any
more proper way of testing, it should be adopted. He said
he should make no suggestion, but that ho would make an
objection at the proper time. Under these circumstances,
and having an assurance from Mr. Taunton that the meters
were correctly tested, and that there was no other mode
which could possibly be adopted to secure a correct result,
I immediately stated that it seemed to me to be the best
course to continue the same mode of testing which had
already been adopted and approved of. Now, with regard
to the approval of the mode of testing., I waa
particularly careful, throughout, that everything should be
done in such a way that thera would be no room left f. r
cavil hereafter; and wu.'i that view, and knowing that Mt
Smith; the r. _

Mr. Kitchen : Jnst so.

so meth, 11,8 , _ ,„,sent during tue
tests there, and knowing also that he took a very stringent
account of the tests, I called upon him, and put to him the
following questions in writing : " Were you present during
the testing of the whole of the meters in Compton-house,
in June last ?" His answer was, " All of the meters in
Compton-house were not tested. I was present during the
trials of such as were tested." " Who tested on behaf of
the gas company ?" He replies, " Mr. Edwards regularly."
"Did you, during the progress of the testing of your meters
hear Mr. Edwards make any observations in regard to Mr.
Taunton's test meter, or mode of testing ?" His reply is,
"No; Mr. Edwards appeared to be perfectly satisfied with
the tests, and repeatedly expressed to me his satisfaction
at Mr. Taunton's honourable course of proceeding."
" Did Mr. Edwards suggest any cross-tests, and were
they adopted" ? His answer is—" There were cross-tests
suggested and acted upon, but I do not remember from
whom they emanated."", Were you present when Mr.
King attended ?" " I was." " Be so good as to state
what he said and did upon that occasion." His reply is,
"Mr. King expressed his extreme surprise at the result of
the tests, also at hearing that the meters were overcharged
with water. Mr. King requested Mr. Edwards and Mr.
Taunton to try some others in the vicinity. They did so
and told me..upon their return that they were also over-
charged. Mr. King was desirous to prove that the inspectors
thehe gas company could have no motive in overcharging
ter meters. He expressed his belief that the inspectors
i,gnorant of the effect of there being too little or too
much Water on the consumption, The inspectors' books
were brought in to prove the system adopted, but the
books almost invariably shewed that the meters were
reported
"as correct, or that water had been added
to hem.
Taunton thati\TMorw: air, I may state in regard to Mr.
King repeated to me over and over again,

Mr. Kitchen: There was another consumers' company in
the field, and they were also pressed, I believe, by a
deputation of consumers. As soon as ever they found that
a company was again registered, down goes the price again.
leis now reduced to 4s within the parliamentary boundary,
and 43 6d in the suburbs. Therefore, I say that we are
perfectly justified in making the remarks we did, that all
the reductions made in the price of gas, have been entirely
in consequence of pressure from without. Now, in regard
to leakages : Mr. Clegg stated, in :his evidence, that there
were 246 million feet of gas manufactured, 171 millions con-
sumed in private meters, 43 millions consumed by the lamps,
and a loss of 31 millions. A loss of 31 millions upon 171
millions, is something like 31 per cent. Now, Mr. Clegg
states, that he does not take into account the over-registration
of the meters. Therefore if the meters, upon an average,
over-register something like five per cent, it is perfectly
clear jthat we make out a deficiency of twenty per cent,
which Mr. Clegg stated, in his evidence was the amount
of leakage in the Liverpool distribution. Then with
regard to the suburban districts, there can be no doubt
that the reply of the gas company does not meet the case
at all. There is no analogy between the distribution of
gas and the distribution of water, and therefore I presume
the company must have passed over that question, upon
the principle of "the least said is the soonest mended."
It seems to me also that they have perfectly admitted the
impropriety of charging the consumers in the townships
and the out-townships the same price, from the fact that
they reduced the price from 4s 6d to 4s in the borough,
leaving the out-townships to pay 43 6d still. It therefore
requires no argument on my part to show that there was
great injustice in making an equal charge, for it requires
an jrnmeuse amount of pressure to carry out the gas to
a great distance, and it involves great loss by
leakage, which arises in consequence of having the
consumption of -gas within the borough, subjected to a
heavier pressure, by which means the consumers are

NORTHERN DAILY TIMES.-LIVERPOOL, THURSDAY, JANUARY 10, 1856.

-

subjected to a higher charge, and find their bills increased
Now„with regard to the cost of rdanagenient i The ctim;
pany state,:and express great astonishment at it, and that
the palpable variation:in the niode of Stating the accounts,
should not have been seen by us. Now, wo have no other
accounts; we take those which were published by the
axcountants: The company get out in their reply; that
the accounts were differently made tip at one time, to the
way a 'opted subsequently. To a certain extent they are,
but I find no account mentioned by these gentlemen, in
their report of any reduction by bad debts upon the credit
side, while I find upon the other side of the account
debits for collectors' salaries, and other salaries the same
as the account subsequently. Therefore, assuming their
return to be right, there has been an omission in not stat-
ing it all. Itowever, while upon that siihjedt, let its take
the figures as you please and adopt them. We give them
dredit for 1.200/. additional for the year • 1848,
making altogether their cost of management,
15,3861. In 1849, the first year after the amalgamation,
the'ambunt increased to 17,0151. In 1850, 17,4761. In 1851,
15,7801. In 1852, 15,962/. In 1853,.15,9551. In 1854 the last
year for whidh We Wire a return, 17,662/ Now, sir, on look-
ing further into the accounts, we find, according to their
statement, they had put down 2,0081. to the other company
for bad debts previous to the amalgamation, making alto-
gether 4,0221.. for bad debts. Now, in 1854, the year I have
just alluded to, the bad debts are only 1500/ odd, so that they
must have increased the expensea of the management. In
1848, previous to the amalgamation, the expenses of the
management were 15,300/. In 1854, they have mounted up
to 20,000/. In repairs for 1849 we find the company have
expended 3,167/. The repairs were exceedinglyi mode-
rate, and the expenses exceedingly moderate after
that period, because the dividends did not seem to
have made up the full amount, but immediately that
the dividend came up to ten percent., the mark required,
we find the. expenses beginning to increase ; and up
to 1854, we find that the repairs have increased 300 per
cent on 1849. They have got a very large amount of
land on hand, which it seems they had had previously to
the amalgamation. This land, it is stated by some per-
sons, amounts to something like 34,000/. Whatever may
be the valueof the land, when it is sold—and it is perfectly
clear that at present, it is but a mere nominal value, and
it may be many years before it is sold at a profit—they
have, in retaining that land, something like an expense of
1,5001 a year in interest, which the consumers of gas
have to pay, and which I think a perfect injustice. Now,
Mr. Mayor, I shall riot trouble the council long, but shall
just refer to the bonded debt of the company. It is per-
fectly clear that if` he company would use their 'borrow-
ing powers, (as Mr. Beloe observed,) to a larger extent, it
would be much more beneficial to the consumers, and
why they do not do so I am quite at a loss to understand,
and I, therefore, consider that the consumers of gas
have great ground of complaint upon that head.
Now, Mr. Mayor, I do not know that there is
any particular point further which requires any
observations from me. But having had occasion to
address Mr. Clegg in reference to the losses upon leak-
age, he writes to me in reply, stating, in reference to the
report presented by the gas committee to the council—
"l think the report of your committeee to the council is
drawn up with much judgment and truth, and I entirely
agree with the remarks contained in it." Now, that
report was not submitted to Mr. Clegsr4, or any other
person, before it was presented to the council, and I was
very much pleased to hear that we stated nothing in it
but what could bear the investigation and receive the
approval of such an authority as Mr. Clegg. I mention
this to show the council that the report has his entire
approval. Mr. Mayor, I shall not trouble the council
any further, but any explanation which may be required,
I shall be happy to give. I shall now merely move the
confirmation of the proceedings.
Mr. A. C. Stewart seconded the motion, reserving to
himself the right of reply.
The Mayor: The first of the resolutions placed before
us is one of a very important character, and Mr. Kitchen
has given no reason to recommend it to our approval. He
has explained the report of the committee, and the reply
of the company, but I am not aware that upon this impor-
tant resolution one word has been said, but that all has
been left to inference. _ _

Mr. Kitchen : Each of the resolutions will be put
separately. With regard to the first resolution, it is not
a proposal that the council should buy the gas works. It
is just simply a proposal that the gas shareholders be
placed in the same position as the dock bondholders. We
do not say the gas company would accept such a proposal,
but the adoption of these resolutions will empower us to
put ourselves in communication -with the company, and to
see whether any arrangement beneficial to all parties can
be secured. The resolution commits the council to
nothing, and the arrangement will involve them in no
expense, for it would be arranged that the inspector of
meters should be paid by fees, on the same principle as in
the case of the inspector of weights and measures.
Mr. Alderman Cooper : What is the security to be given
to the bondholders ?
Mr. Kitchen: The same security that they have at
present.

- Mr. Robertson suggested that it would be better to put
the resolutions separately. He had no objection to some
of them, but he was opposed to all.
After some further conversation,
Mr. Kitchen withdrew his original motion, and simply
proposed the first resolution.

- Mr. Holt said he did not understand the object of the
resolution. He wished to know if it were intended that
the corporation should enter into a co-partnership with
the Gas Company ?
The Mayor : No.
Mr. Holt : Must we have an act of parliament?
Town Clerk : Certainly.

Mr. Holt: But what is the object ? What is to be
gained?. Is the property to como under the management
of this corporation?
The Mayor : No ; It is proposed that there shall be a
board of directors composed of three members of the
council, three bondholders, and three persons appointed
by the con3urners.

Mr. Holt : Then the security of the bondholders is to
rest on the gas estate, and they are not to be guaranteed
out of the corporate estate?

cid:). bel

Mr. A. C. Stewart seconded the resolution. He thought
it was very plain and simple. The property would be the
same under the new conditions as it now was, but the
management of the property would be much more popu-
lar. They all knew that the consumers of gas, according
to the company's own showing, had an interest in the
management of the affairs of the company, because the
moment that the dividend reached 10 per cent. the surplus
money should be in the reduction of the price of the gas.
The committee thought that the company as at present con-
stituted, or rather that the managers of the company had
not so much interest in adopting new and scientific modes
of manufacture, and cutting down the expenditure in
every way, as a new management on the bass of the reso-
lution would have. Another advantage in the plan pro-
posed, would be this—that if the resolution were carried
out, they would be relieved from any opposition by a new
company being established, because the bondholders, the
corporation, and the whole body of consumerq, would then
have an interest in its management and prosperity: It
would also do away with the incessant tearing up and
laying down of the streets—an evil which would be much
increased by a new company being established, and the
security to the bondholders would ,be the same as at
present, without the fear of opposition; because, if
the interest could not be paid with gas at 3s or 4s the
thousand, the price would be raised, in order that the
interest on the bonds might be paid, and the company
carried on. He thought, then, that the (proposition was
very simple, but it was another thing, whether the council
would adopt it or not.
Mr. Charles Turner : Will you guarantee the bond-
holders ?

Mr. Stewart : The bondholders will be guaranteed on
the property of the company, and if the managers cannot
pay the amount of interest settled on, they will have to raise
the_ price of gas.
Mr. C. Turner : But it is not incumbent on them to raise
the price.
Mr. A. C. Stewart : Respectable and proper men will be
placed on the direction, and they will raise the price if it be
necessary.

Mr. C. Turner : Then all the danger is to be risked by
the bondholders.

Mr. Alderman Parker observed that, if the council went
to parliament they would find it very difficult to get a bill
for the contemplated purpose. He gave the committee
every credit for the zeal and time they had bestowed on the
inquiry ; but, before they submitted the resolution, they
should have considered the consequences of the position
which the council took, on the occasion of the amalgamation
in 1846. He, at the time, had been an advocate for the
Guardian Gas Company, because he did not like monopolies
or amalgamations ; but the corporation were parties to the
amalgamation—Conies of " no, no"),—and it was therefore
carried. The arguments for that amalgamation were, that
it would be a ly.ielit to the town, by saving expense in a
variety of ways ; and if they now went to parliament for
a new bill, they would be met by their own arguments of
1816. He thought the council had acted wrongly in the
course they took in 1846, because, in such a large town as
Liverpool, he thought that there should be opposition ; but,
remembering the arguments of 1846, he should oppose the
present resolution. The committee, however, should not

run away with the idea that all the public spirit and

patriotism in the town was:centered in theniselves. He would
he as ready as any of them to do what would be for the
interest of the town • but their labours in this matter
reminded him of those of the mountain which long
groaned, and then gave birth to a mouse. (Laughter.)
Mr. Bradley observed that Mr. Parker was in error in
stating that the council had been parties to the amalgama-
tion in 1846. At that time various resolutions were come

to in the council, and though there was a disposition in the
minds of some to support the amalgamation, others were
opposed to it. The council eventually took up the position
of watching the bill, and he believed their only interference
was the introducing of a clause for the protection of
the Consumers.
Mr. Alderman Bennett said that if any party would be
benefitted by the carrying out of the resolution as proposed
by the committee, that person would be himself, because
being a manufacturer of a great number of articles which
cheap gas would be the means of introducing to the public,
the cheapness of that article would confer a greater advan-
tage upon him than perhaps any other person in the com-
munity. He also would be benefitted, as an iron-founder,
by the establishment of a rival company ; so that upon
every ground of personal feeling he should be in favour of
any scheme which would reduce the price of gas, or which
would be brought before the council for the establishment
of a rival company ; but he should say, that after a careful
perusal of the committee's report, and the reply of the com-
pany, he could not; like an honest man, stand up to advo-

cate the adoption of the resolutions. The company were
tamed all through the report with habitually doing that
Which was not honest towards the public. Now that,
qualify it as they would, or insinuate it as they would, was
a very grave charge against a body of directors, because
they were the only parties that could be supposed to be
benefitted by any nefarious computation in the amount of
the gas consumed. The company's servants would not be
benefitted by it; the company's workmen would not be
benefitted by it; it was only the revenue which would be
benefitted, and over that the directors had the control. Who
would suppose that Mr. S. H. Thompson would be a party
to give such instructions to his servants as would possibly
raise the price of the gas? or that Mr. E. A. Lzwrence
would do it—

A Voice: Who said they did it
Mr. Alderman Bennett dontinuel
man Cooper, or Mr. Hardman grrie, c
any of the othPr gentlemen on the dir
guilty of such dishonesty ? Again, there was Mr. ki
the respected urinager of the company. He v
kv his fellow-

Mr, Fusberry, or
melon. would be

H

ast valuable men for reference in the town—one
whose character stood as high as that of any gentleman's,
and whom to know was t ) respect. There was not a man
who knew him, who would suspect him of doing anything
that Was dishonourable, or dishonest, in the service of the
edasparty he represented. When he Or. Bennett) read the
committee's report, he went immediately to the office of the
company, and desired that he might be allowed to see the
different methods by which the testing of the meters wa
conducted, as that was a matter constantly referred to in th
report. Mr. King at once consented, and they went a
every departmeut of the concern, and Mr. Taunton e.
Clegg could not have gone there with a greater determi-
nation of detecting anything that was wrong, than did he
(Mr. Bennett), but. much to the credit of the company's
servants, and the quality of the workmanship, everything
that he examined, showed the greatest excellence and
accuracy. He particularly examined the meters, and it
was shown to him that there was not any inherent defect
in them, but that they were inaccurate in the degree in
which too much, or too little, water was poured into them.
He went into the testing-room, where there was a large
number of meters lying for .he purpose of being tested, and
he saw that while a great many of them were marked with
chalk as correct, others of them were set aside as incorrect,
in order that they might be returned to the manufactory
for adjustment. He tested the meters that were marked as
correct, and he found that they were so, and that they were
incorrect only in the degree in which too much, or too little
water was put into them, or the level disturbed; and the
explanation given by Mr. King was so full, so complete,
and so satisfactory, that he (Mr. Bennett) was convinced
that if the statement had been made in the Council-room,
even the members of the committee would be satisfied of
the honesty of the intention, and the purpose, and the way
in which the registration of gas by meters was carried out
in the town of Liverpool. If a perm put too much water
into the meter it registered more gas than he consumed,
while if too little water were put in it would register
against the company ; and he should also tell them that
almost every error that could arise in the meter from de-
fective construction was against the manufacturer. Any
leakage from defect in the article, or any wearing of the
material, showed a decrease in the quantity of gas consumed
against the maker, and in favour of the public. A great
deal had been said about the flow of inferior gas through
the meter. Great stress was laid on it in Mr. Clegg's
report, but so much was the public in the dark on the
subject, that several gentlemen were under the impression
that inferior gas flowed with greater speed through the
meter, and that that speed caused the meter to register
more than was- consumed. No idea could be more pre-
posterous. The meter only registered the quantity of gag,
whether _good or bad, which was consumed. That was
a very important point, and one in regard to which the
public should be set right; bat even if it were true, the
committee gave them no figures to show that the quality of
the gas was below that which the company were bound to
produce. There were statements certainly of a very vague
and unmeaning character on the subject, one gentleman
saying that the quality of the gas before the amalgamation
was equal to twenty-one candles, and after the amalgamation
to eighteen candles, but the latter quality was what they
were bound to supply to the public lights, and if the gen-
tleman admitted that gas of that quality was given, then
the company fairly supplied what they were bound to
produce. At page four of the report the committee stated
that they sent out 1,600 circulars, and only 298 were
returned. It was only yesterday that one of those circulars
had been put into his hand, and if there was anything that
could cause the consumers to be dissatisfied with things as
they at present existed, the wording of the circular supplied
it. The public were asked so many questions, all of them
so calculated to primp out charges of defects, that it was
astonishing to him how any gentleman could have sent
them out. The questions should have been put fairly, and
the public simply asked, " Are you satisfied, or dissatis-
fied?" But, no; every question was a leading question,
and was calculated to elicit an unfavourable reply; but
when they remembered that, proverbially, they were a dis-
satisfied nation, and that only 298 out of the 1,600 circulars
were returned, they might take it as the best proof that could
be given by Englishmen that they were satisfied with the
present state of things. (Laughter.) There was hardly space
left on the circular to a gentleman favourable to the com-
pany to express his opinion, On the same page the com-
mittee set forth, that notwithstanding the reduction in the
price of gas, the bills ta cently paid by consumers were
larger in amount than the bills for the corresponding periods
of previous years, the increase varying from 10 to 60 per
cent., and that no additional gas bad been consumed by
them. Now additional gas had been consumed by them,
for the meters registered it, but the statement was evidently
based on the error that light gas flowed through the meter
with greater rapidity than heavy gas. When the meters
did not register, the managers did the only thing which, as
honest men, they could do between the consumers and
manufacturers, they charged according; to the quantity
consumed in the last quarter; but on all these grounds the
committee canoe to the conclusion that the present price of
gas was too high. Now if they were to suppose that the
present alleged overcharges were to be continued, he could
understand that conclus,on, but if those overcharges fur
registration were to be checked, then that would be a reason
why the price of gas should be raised, not lowered. The
company would receive a less revenue, and they would not
be enabled to make the reduction which they lately made,
when their revenue with difficulty gave them the full 10 per
cent. dividend. He had not, however, heard one word
from Mr. Kitchen as to the expense of manufacture ; he did
not tell them how much it took to produce the revenue of
£90,000 in 1849, and £126,000 in 1854
Mr. Kitchen : I will give it to you

Mr. Bennett did not want it--(laughterj—but Mr. Kit-
chen ought to have mentioned it. In 1854, the expense of
manufacture was £59,000, while in 1849, the expense was
only £47,000.

Mr. Kitchen : In 1851 the expenses were £48,800; in
1852, £50,000; in 1853, £51,000; and, in 1854, they
increased to £59,000, the increase being accounted for by the
increase of wages in the year.

Mr• Alderman Bennett said, that he hal not gone into
the account of the intermediate years, but he was informed
that the expenses in 1854 were swelled up by £l5OO on
account of rates alone. He was told that the parish
authorities were in such difficulties that in that year they
solicited to be paid two years' rates at the same time.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Bradley : Oh, I deny that.
Mr. Alderman Bennett said, that he had it on paper, but
that he mislaid it. He then again asserted that the com-
pany's meters were fairly constructed, and that two years
since the company were willing that a public tester should
be appointed, but justly objected to his being one of their
paid officers. The directors put that resolution on their
books two years ago, and the recommendation in reference
to the appointment of such an officer was the only point of
value in the report. He then objected to the constitution
of the proposed direction, and observed that the consumers
would be as two to one to the bondholders on it. If he
were a gas proprietor, the fear which he would have would
be that some other light would be discovered which would

supersede gas; and what more likely, now that chemistry
was making such rapid strides and scientific men were
turning their attention to the subject? What would become
of them, he would ask, as shareholders in a property
of the value of something like £600,000, if a discovery
were made that would supersede gas, and introduce a new
system of lighting the public streets ? It was a serious
thing to contemplate, if they considered the proposed
arrangement in that light. From all that he had seen, he

would advise the council to let well alone. They had a

company supplying them with gas at a price alraost thee
lowest in the kingdom, and of a quality superior, he
believed, an
believed, to all gas produced in the kingdom with
amount of attention from the company's
h
servantsea r
greater
ges which
than which they could not expect,
anddd with
paid
he denied were exorbitant.
Hhad
hundreds of pounds for fittings, and he had found their bills
exceedingly moderate, and the quality of the work credit-
able to the manager and the men. It was plain, however,
that the object was a rival company.
Mr. Kitchen : Who said so ?
Mr. Alderman Bennett replied that it was apparent from
the paragraph at pace 12 of the committee's report, which
was as follows :—" Assuming the capital of the company,
already raised and to be raised, to be as above stated, there
eau be no doubt that the company are capable of supplying
the increasing demand for gas. It is stated by Mr. Clegg,
as the result of a most careful and elaborate calculation,
that works capable of supplying the present and future
demand for gas, including mains, &c., could be constructed
for £300,000, and that the outlay of this amount would
enable a company to supply gas of a quality superior to
that now used at 3s. 6d. per 1,000 cubic feet, and pay a
dividend of £lO percent. on the outlay." What did that
mean but the establishment of a rival company ? He denied
that such a capital would suffice for the purpose, and
warned the council against approving of the resolutions
submitted to them.
Mr. Ilornby explained that he would vote for the resolu-
tion, as it seemed to him that it merely authorised the gas
committee to endeavour to make such an arrangement with
the company as would be satisfactory to all parties. He
Conceived that it in no way obliged the council to sanction