The Express.
London, England, 1850-05-11 00:00:00

SAVINGS.BANK BILL.

In reply to Sir H. WlLLoroanr,
Tao CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
timid ookbring on the second reading of the Savings Bank
Bill before Whimatide.
ABOLITION OF THE LORD LIEUTENANCY OF
IRELAND.

In reply to Mr. DtanAna,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that on Friday next, before the
orders of the day, he would oak leave to brie( in a big to
abolish the lord lieutenancy of Ireland.
THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS.
Mr. HORSMAN said time commissioners had made no

report ance 1847. H. wished to know whether there would
be any objection to his nosing for a return of their mere
repent proceedings ?
Lord J. RUSSELL could not answer the question without
first looking at the return.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

It was than agrood that ths house, at its rising, should
adjourn to Monday next.
STAMP DUTIES.

The CHANCELIbiof thiTEMCHEQUER prefaced his
announcement of the government intention respecting the
stamp duties, by an allusion to the perplexities which had
tersifled his predecessors from attemplag the revision of those
duties in the pose, and of his own purpose in trying to
amend them in detail. This purpose, he observed, was
ealginally rather the equalisation than the maintop of the
le% NEW as regarded the minor conveyances which were
seined for the benefit of small buyers and sellers of land.
Airs recapitulating the various modifications which
Om pup d measure had undergone, the objections
aged against it, and the adverse votes that had passed
the house upon its various clauses, Sir C. Wood stated
that he intended to move that the bill be altogether
dkam., and a new one substituted, of which he
emu iianddii the principal features. The duty on CORMS, -
anon sad to be It. per cant. on all values. On
mortgages and bonder, whisk the late vote had recommended
to be Is. per cant., he proposed charging one-eighth per
cent., making the duty on value up to 601. only le. 3d. ; for
1001., 2s. 114. ; and as meek men err every successive 1004
For settlements and money mama open land the stamp to
be 51. per cent. The duty an esninginal essufties he gave
up ullogetbut as will as that upon knew fk ie a pier, of what-
ever amount.. The stamps on nesimerials were kM at aced.,
and en the " followers" in anveyances • fixed sum of
105. 1,.. • new feature of ter importance in the bill, he
promised a clause by whisk • ems of 10s., paid by way of
verifiestion fee, was to rimier the duty charged upon any
inetemment the cossimisionens of stamps, effectual in
=Mos the t vale in every court for all intents
gni pungens Wend of kr*/ the question of validity
elm Mr emo irides of lis Mr at the last moment, to
is post ad hiftedalla Irealiewabla damage of the suitors.
Tba Clkimeellor el kW lindieessee then moved that the
Geist fte Om Wilma nemeiller et the obi bill should be
dieelmusi I =ft, tarfftwOhnil an Monday next the house
ebennticlage tesiumbine In oar ft par the preliminary
he the Intredesilea el his new measure.
After a flie:=Esea Mr. T. Eankrox and Mr. IiZAD-
LA M it was agreed Mat the home resolve itself into •
manna's on the sedget of the stamp ditties on Monday.
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS, at. (IRELAND),

Oa the order of the diif;; the thin reading of this
bill-
-Bir J. WALSH moved that it be read a third time that
day air months, maintaining that it was an undue disturb-
ance of the Reform Bill, with which a guarantee had been
liven that it should be finaL If this bill went merely to
:seedy the defects of the Reform Bill of 1832 he should
riot however object to it; but it entirely departed
from the provisions and the principles of that measure,

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1850.

ny introducing a vastly more dementia system. effect of ottoman' as Chemise domes Irelend, in &form,
Hs had drawn up a ached shown; tin state of the en- he aligned, non simple and emmpsliwdvs than that in
Min In Irelasd, and how it could be allened by this which it was applied in this ofW (Bear, hear.) The
n sure.
0 There were three column showing the number tenant at will, it rated at 81., wwssl in the presesue of
coin:Oen In 1837. he 1849, and the number there Inlaid pro- his landlord. (Hear, hoar.) This wasa great change, and
bably be under this bill. In the aunty of Antrim in 1837 one that would give an undue preponderance to the landed
the number of voters was 4,032, Is. 849 they had boon interest, unless the independent householden of the towns
diminished to 1,314, and if Shia mums biome law the not Manilas members ware placed in counterpoise wish the
number would be 18,692, nearly menthe s@ setteany as the subservient cultivators of the soil. Hon. gentlemen aeries
present constituency. In Limerick the another of desired that a minimum—end the hon. and learned gelato
voters in 1837 was 3,280, in • 1849 they had de- man who hadjust spokee(Mr.Napler)onillated between 121
creased to 1,096, and the new conatitmeney would be 14,163 and lel. —should be adopted —teat should be both
The total camber of toms in 1837 was 80,206; la 1849 sufacisatly high and 'efficiently low for its purpose; high
!key had bees reduced to 33,842, and they would be gag- enough to exclude the household contitueney from the
sesaled by the resent bill to 344,771, exellunve of those county,—(ticaz)—sand at the same time low enough to let
who might qualify seder the existing modifications. LA in a large mass of quiescent vassalage under the operation of
' him compare the constituencies of Ireland nada this bill the clause. (Hear.) What would be the consequence of
with these of England, Scotland, aid Wales. The county that? The occupier of land rated at this, what shall I cell
constituencies of Ireland under this bill would comprise on it (sentineled the right hon. gentleman)—this pseudo con
the average 11,600 voters. Is Beglaad, taking the counties @genitive minimum—(cheers)—unprotected in everything—
and divisions of counties, by a return laid an the table of whose tenure is but his vote, unprotected by any lease,—
the house In 1847, it appeared that the average of those on- (hear, hearl—and when suffrage *unprotected by the ballot
stituenose in England was about 6,700, and If they were to —(loud cheers from the liberal party)—he would be
reject those great constituencies which were more ulna than invested, according to your scheme, with the fran-
raral, Middlesex, the West Riling of Yorkshire and South this, for the exercise of which, perhaps, you cur -
Lancashire, the average would be about 6,690. The nun- CATe this the most appropriate qualifieation. (Hear, hear.)
ties of Wales had little more that 3,000, and of Scotland While on the other hand the householder in the county
1,500. This bill, then, would give to Ireland an meant of town, with its 10,000 or 12,000 inkabitante, like Thistles cr
voters altogether disproportionee to the constituencies in Carriek-en-Sair, which sends no members to parliament—
England, Scotland, and Wales. If they were to carry this the respectable occupiers of the county towns, rated at el:
measure they meld be entering upon a new career of nvo- for • tenement, which in this country would be rated at
lutionary change. Now, the Mentions that he entertained considerably more—perhaps 181.—the well-conducted man
to this measure were principally directed to the 81. rating engaged in respectable trade, inteldgent, sagacious, and pro-
claim and to the joint occupation clause, and, perhaps, bably not uneducated, in good circumstances, and with a
in • minor degree, to the compulsory registration. supplemental capital in his integrity—he would be stripped
He considered compulsory registration a dangerous and mis by your ecneme of that franchise, of which ho would make
chievous principle. Tee hoe. baronet proceeded at much a fearless, an independent, and an honourable use. (Wear,
length to observe upon the character of the electorate which hear.) This would be impolitic, and it would be unjust.
would be created under the bill, declaring that its result It would be impolitic, because unjust—(sheen)—and its
would be a cottier constituency, with a dangerousapproxlms- impolicy and injustice are rendered the more conspicuous,
tom to universal suffrage, and when the landlord would because in this country you hove preserved the 40e free-
share a vast amount of illegitimate influence with the priest, bold franchise, and because here the great majority ef
the demagogue, and the trading agitator. On these grounds English members are returned for boroughs on the low
he moved that the bill be read a third time that day six qualification et • 101. value--(hear, bear) ;—but if your pur
months; and he did so with the sanguine hope that what- pen sumeed,the majority of Irish members would be returr.ed
ever might be the result of that motion, the bill in it. on a qualification of double that amount. This is nut
present chap would not ultimately become the law of the consistent with the true spirit of the legislative union.
land. (Load cheers.) But you will tell me, many of you—or if
lair. E. B. ROCHE owned he was surprised at this oppc- you do not tell me I know you thick it—that the ease of
anion at the eleventh hour to this tardy manure of justice Ireland is peculi*—(heae)—that you ere afraid cf agitation.
to Ireland, but if he was surprised at the hon gentleman (Cheers and counter cheers.) I think your fear is intsteken
opposite, be was still more surprised at the enters he (Cheers.) Mistaken fear has been the hue of Ireland.
had urged. The hon. gentleman had at considerable (Hear.) It wet by mistaken fear that the purl cede was
length gone through his reasons for opposing the bill, but he enacted—it was mistaken fear thatdelayed its repeal—(`lear)
' (Min Roche) had never heard sounder reasons for the pass. —it was to mistaken fear that that fatal procrastination of
lug of the measure than those put forward by the hon. gen- justice tookaolsee which has produced so much misfortent
iv
tliman for rejecting it.. The leaders of the people Ireland—(hear)—and if I ma; be 'down! to say so, there is
in that country were now rather disposed to turn their nothing of which England has cause to be so much ashamed
attention to physical and social improvements; but when es this mistaken fear. (Loud cheering.) You mny toy
hon. gentlemen opposite raked up alt the old topics of party "what after the scenes we have wenessel in Ireland—the
',effeteness, throwing into the cauldron that eternal grit v- "undermine of landlord from tecant—the paroxysms which
ante, the Irish church, they were the reel agitators of Ir • she has exhibited, is there nothing to fear. I ray nothing
land, and ought to bear the responsibility of the consequence —(more cheering)—but look at the facts—to the cans •e or
of such agitation. (Hear, hear.) Feeling that this bill was events—the eveuts which are peeing before you, and meek
based on just and fair principles, and supplied remedies for a the consequences. The agitation I have referred to was le
glaring evil, he would deal) he could, as the representative of be ascrieed to two causes. The operation of both those causes
the largest constituency in Ireland, to carry it out. Ile have ceased. That result is to be ascribed toe great wets-
publicly thee ked tbc government for introducieg it, and tion and to a great man. (Hear, hear.) The qneetien wes
hoped it would be successfally curled. (Hear, hear.) the catholic qui scion, unparalleled in its it.flueuee and the
severity with which it was c Jousted ; the man was an able
Lord BERNARD raid it was no matter of surprise that
opposition should be offered to this bill, looking at the is and en industrious Irishman—(hear, hest)—one whose eke,
portantawinceples which it involved. Ministers had last year looking at the might of his intellect and the eiteree f his
character, we shall not look upor. again. (L cud and
anseatkeir belief that this measure could be no longer
delayed. How was this? Waen a new franchise was pre. repeated cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman has
alluded to the act of 1713, when the 40s. freehold franchise
posed it might be supposed that the country was int:unlit
was granted to the catholic* of Ireland. Does he not keow
mimed, and that the table of the house was
that for 40 years that franchise was exercised by altoloaded with petitions in termer of such a measure.
Bat not a single petition had been presented, or tenant in subtler% ieracs to the protestant proprietcr
sheeting held in its favour the greatest epathy on the sub- of the soil (Bear, Lear.) And how was the bend
prevailed in Ireland. lie Oppow this
l aeasere, as broken ? I have no doubt that the great eke-oral struggle
Mug et with danger to both co:nettles. It was not a sienre would not have taken place but for the miraculous ore enisa-
non which the wrongs done to hie country enabled Mr.
measure, but one merely to get in the wedge. It had
nothing on earth to do with Ireland. The fact was ministers O'Connell to accomplish. But for that catholic questi-a he
were afraid of a dissolution of parliament, and thus sought to never would have been able to associate together the cath.eic
strengthen their ranks by sone forty or fifty additional hierarchy—the catholic aristecrazy, the catholic [teeny, bar-
supporters. Another ground why he opposed this rigors, graziers, awl all classes and conditions in that
bill was, because it destroyed the real property amazing confederacy before which ascendancy at last fell
franchise in counties, which had existed for • down. (Ilene hear.) And, on the other hand, that cone -
lengthened period. The last time this question dersef
was debated in the house in 1941, the present me amongst us that celebrated men of whom Ireland is justly
'Listen were divided on the question. The noble lord at the Prowl, and to whom she ascribes her greatest victory.
head of the government had asked the house what would (Cheers.) But, it may be asked, may not a mond OtCez-
nen arise ? True, nature may supply the same faculties. but
be the effect on the country if they c 'minted to extend the
(neer, hear.) Such wee fortune may not again supply the same opecrtuaity—
franchise to the Irish populace.
nature may create the same versatility of mind—the Wag
the noble lord's opinion then ; and he had not once ex- nature
resources—the time unfailing pers.evereue —the
peened a different opinion sine* that period. The Earl of
same indomitable courage—the sante commending elquence,
Carlisle (len Lord lelorpetb) had dssetibed the principle
which, in his case, converted a populace lute a people ; hut
of the bill (Lord Ho trick's) as • novelty in a consteutionel
point of view. The Chancellor of the Exchequer sup, °tied though nature may make a second O'Connell, you won: fur-
nish him ..vith • second penal code. There never wee a time,
the bill as extending the franchise to an independent set
thick, more opportune tor earryine this meagre. (Una.)
Of voters. Tire late Sir W. Follett objected to it as altering
the principle of the Rearm Bill, and as directly violatingCOConcessions made to irelani by this country have too el.en
the candition on which the Homan Catholic Relief Bill had to be the rennet of tear,—:o have beta di asted
by a sentiment which nueleilimen ought never to entertain.
been paned. Once adept the principle of making the bo-
(Hear, hear.) But now taat Ireland is at rest, now that she
rough and county franchise the same, and where on earth
were they to stop ? The nteenery consequeces would be the is wisely governed and in a state of repose, now that
adoption of the chartist principle of electoral districts. (Hear.)) you are not pressed by the spirit of menacious no-
Under
restation—(hear, hear)—this measure—this large and
the systemproposed,teetownswouldhaveunbounded
compreeensive measure—which May redeems the
influence in the county election'. Let the house bear
in mind how undesirable it was, now that the countries pledge which my noble mead the first minister of the crown
on taking uffice—(hesr, hone—will appear to be thewen so closely united, to establish different franchises. Ca- gave
spentaneous emanation of a nation's fairness, anti dictated
piudista here were recommended to invest their savings in
by the noblest sentiments of Englishmen. (Cheer.) I
Ireland ; at the some time they were told they should not
t from
trus the sg, in ther
enjoy the same political influence, but have it swamped by
has been tohencefortho much truth—that Eancient nglayin and's diffiweiehcui yis Ire-
e
the town populatioe. lie asked the house to pause before
land's opportuuity—wel cease, and that that enamel 'mho-
it took this step, won.
if once taken, they would perhaps
find it difficult to retrace. (Hear, hear.) risen, the truth of which the experience of cetouries have
6:r J. YOUNG said that be would support the third read-
confirmed, will too mere be heard, but that in the minds of
ing of the bill, although there were come puts of it which he Irishmen there may be implanted the convictioe that you
feel, that justice to Ireland is the best security for Itegland,
should wish to see amended before itassed into a law. He
and that her rights are Newland her interest.' identified with
regretted that the government had so pertinaciously adhered
to the second clause, which if not fairly ' d out would your own. (Cheers )
give rise to frauds and subdivision of land. He thought Lord JOCELit N quoted tome statements of the numbers
that the town land valuation should be adopted, as of rated householders to prove the enump ion that wider an
81. rating qualification the intelligence sad respectability of
the basis of the franchise, instead of the poor law valuation,
for the reform of which several boards of guardians were the constituency would be entirely swamped.
already crying out. (Hear, heir.) If the object of this Lord CASTLEREAGH, without approving tile VI alto-
gether, conceded the necessity of enlarging the elect:eel
alto-
measure were really to carry out the intention which the
basis, and declined to postpone for another estsion the stilt
legislature had in passing the Reform Act, be considered
of an enlarged constituency to Ireland. It was, neveethe'ees,
that a 121. rating would effect that object more fairly than
the 81. rating which was adopted in this bill. The county he allowed, an experiment fraught with peril, end he
should have prefenea the selection of a 121, rating quelifi.
which he represented, for instance (Cavan), had a consti-
tuency of 3,400, after the passing of the Reform Bill, "den.
when almost every person who was entitled to Colonel RAWDON was muted that the measure had
the franchise was placed on the registry. But the been prompted by no dread of agitation, but n sincere wish
secure juniee tor Ireland.
81. clase would give 9,000 electras to that count
A 1(1. rating would give 6,000 electors, and a 121. ratingy. co
Sir J. GRAHAM disclaimed the party objrc's which Mr.
Napier had attributed to all the advocatee of the present
would give 4,500, which approximated to the number which
the Reform Bill gave.lie had stated what he considered to measure. He had objected to sewn of the clauses of the bill,
be the defects of the bill, but a large majority of that house and had, among others, voted against the joinneecupsecy
having decided against the amendments proposed to remedy clause, and, while disapproving of the 81 qualification re too
low, only supported it because he bed r.'o choice between
them, he felt bound to support the third reading, because
that tariff and the 151. rating proposed by Sir J.
the =enure contained a principle which he believed to be
essential to the prosperity of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The Young. The rapid dissolution of the enetitueneics
under the existing franchise proved that no sound
hon. baronet who moved the amendment objected to
the self-acting registry. He (Sir J. Young) hoped the basis could be discovered except in the occupation
government would adhere to that part of the measure, rating. This wits adopted in the pre sent mereure, and
which he regarded as a very conservative portion of it. guarded re it was by the necessity for residence and the ale
With respect to the established church he did not think it solute payment of rates, appeared, if not the ben, at ell
events a scheme which ought not to be rejected without pro-
ms in any danger from this messure. That church was
never later from external attack than at the present mo. Tiding a substitute. Upon the balance he believed that the
meet. For himself he believed it to be sate in the truths good promised by the measure preponderated over the es
which it taught, in the increased activity and zeal of its that might be apprehended. Looking at the advances lately
members, but he believed it would be free from ell assaults made by the " democratic element," he was convinced that it
if those who represented it in that house and elsewhere acted could be most effectually encountered by an extension of
in a spirit of fair liberality towards their Roman catholic the electoral bens. The dreaded approach of universal
fellow countrymen. (Hear.) He did not think that they suffrage would be best averted by a widening of the coostitu-
should for a trifling advantege_:put in jeopardy the great tional suffrage.
Interests of that church. He did not think it wise Mr. DISRAELI said that he had a desire to give his
to put in a separate claim for education, and no opinion on the bill which was then before them, lie ad-
pima could deny that the property of the ecclesiastical dressed them with much hesitation, not only becau-e he
emathisions was mansged in • way that no man would wish followed the right hon. gentleman the member for Ripon,
te no his friend's estate managed. (Hear, hear.) With but also because he considered the speech of that right hon.
newt to the Roman Catholic clergy, it was admitted by all gentleman to be one of a very perplexing character. He had
that they exercised an influence which few pennons would called the attention of the house to the circumstances of the
tae to en exercised by say clergy. Bat let them recollect case and said that he disapproved of the most important ye-
llow that influence had been acquired. The people of Ire- patio's' in the bill in favour of which he was about to
hod wen deprived of their natural protectors by ab. vote. (" Hear " and cheers.) He (Sir J. Graham) recalled
ethaidem—(hear, hear)—and the peasant had recourse to to their recollection with parliamentary pride, the fact that
his prima to aid and aseletanee, which was never he had recorded his vote against the second clause of the
denied MR. Daring the last four or five years, which bill. The right hon. gentleman equally disapproved of the
was a period of great trial and, trouble, the Rogan ca- clause which had fixed the suffngo at an 81. rating, but he
Hallo clergy ranged themselves in general on the side of believed that he voted in favour of that clause when in
law and orier, and he believed that a return of the number committee. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr Disraeli) was correct
("priests who had died during that period in the discharge when he said that he recorded his vote in favonr of
of their duties would of itself be sufficient to fill many min It What opportunity the right honourable gentleman
' with affection sad respect for that body. It was lx- now longed after to express -his opiuion against the
cause this measure would ripen the independence clause it was difficult for him to ascertain. He could
and energise of the people of Ireland that he hardly believe that atter the bill was • read a third time in
hailed it as • boon. (Hear, hear.) It was acknowledged that house, such an opportunity would bo afforded to an
in this bill that there were franchises which might suit the gentleman. Nor had the right hon. gentleman, although
people of England, but which were not suited to the he disapproved of the most important clauses in that bill,
puns and temper of the people of Ireland. The present under the circumstances, vindicated the vote which he was
franchise he believed to be suited to their babies, and in going to give, by a frank avowal that he approved of the
&medium with their general wishes—(hen, bear) ;—and pneciple of the bill. On the contrary, he had candidly ad-
ios felt that he was acting in accordance with the spirit of witted that he was going to give his vote on mixed feelings
the British eonstitutioa, and in the interest of all classes and mixed considerations. Yet it seemed to him
of the people of lealland,in voting for the third reading of (Mr. Disraeli) so far se he could drew en in •
the bill. (Loud choirs.) forence from his speech, that what he most approved
Mr. FAGAN had heard with great satisfaction the speech of in the bill was that the suffrage wes to be exercised in
of the hon. baronet who had just sat down, but he regretted Ireland for the future without any reference to tenure.
that be took exemption to what he considered the most ea- And, indeed, the hon. baronet the member for Cavan, wit'.
inable portion of the bill—namely, the amount of rating whom the right hon. baronet the member for Ripon had
which was to be the bads of the franchise. The amount ed some political sympathy, told them that a franchise in Ire-
-81. would prophet the tenant against the tyranny of the land moonnected with tenure was the great political desi-
landlord, which wee apt to be exercised too frequently in annum. He told them that a franchise connected with
Ireland. He concurred In the praise which had been con- tenure was not suited to the genius of the Irish people. Now
!tendon the self-acr registry clause ; but he regretted that he (Mr. Disraeli) bad more confidence in the genius of the
the billwasnot generallyof a larger and moreliberalcharacter. Irish people than the honourable gentleman the
The hon. member concluded by expressing his thanks to the member for Cavan had. He should say that if it were laid
government for even this putael concession to the people of down to them that Ireland was not in a state to enjoy a po-
Ireland. litical franchise unless disconnected with tenure, they should
Mr. NAPIER supported the ameadment, because he have before the consideration of statesmen a country which
considered the bill was inconsistent with the English and demanded an immediate removal of the causes that brought
Scotch reform acts. There was no such clause in either about such a condition of the people. If that were put
as the second clause in this bill, which changed before him, and he were to act in the spirit in which that
the whole principle of county representation, leaving it bill was framed, he should say that it was not his duty, in
band on a franchise wholly unconnected with tenure or the first place, to create a factitious and artificial coneti-
property. Sapporo the case of a man with his sons and tuency, but that he must endeavour to put an end to that
eons-ifelaw clustered together on a farm valued at 261., the sad and terrible condition which had rendered It impossible
MU would give these men three votes, while a man worth for that people to accumulate sufficient property to ac-
-1,0001. • year in the funds bed no vote. It was well known quire a qualification to vote, and that it was the
that everything la Ireland bad been made subservient to flnt duty of a minister to pass laws which
party purpose. His main Armed of opposition to the bill should develop the resources of the countil. (Cheer.)
was that it would emesniMth all the evils of the old system. He should have supposed that if her Majestys goveram
Mr. SHEIL observedd Hist the hon. and learned gentle- had given their serious attention to the course of the poor
man had condemned his argument, and as It appeared to law, or brought forward measures relating to such subjects
kin his feeling in one sentemee, when he said that the bill as the fisheries—measures calculated to develop the resources
would give the power to these who could move the masses— of the country ; or if they had brought forward • measure
he thought it a great misepprehene ion that the vast, the to settle in a statesmanlike manner the long controverted
natunl, the legitimate 'aflame of property would be de- question between landlord and tenant—(hear, hear)—he
triasentally affected by a bill which, as had been donned by could not help thinking that the result °fetich legidation would
the hon. UMW the Member for Cavan, would have the be to qualify bona fitly electors, and do much more good than

could be effected by these attempts at factitious suffrages.
The present suffrage in Ireland was enacted by the Retorts
Act, and if they divested the question of all the glowing sen-
timents of the Master of the Mint, it amounted to this—that
the 11110111tIn before them was an acknowledgment thet the
Reform Act for Ireland bad failed. (Hear, ar.) No one
would vesture to maintain the thesis that the tenure of land
in Intend was the sole or even the principal cause of that
failure. The fearful diminution that had taken place in the
Irish electoral body might.be traced to causes, moral and mit-
terial, quite sufficient to account for it —namt ly, us precedents d
political agitation and unparalleled remise. (Hear, hear.)
The Irish eonatitueades had diminished to an amount that

no one would in the abstract advocate. But the moral and ma-
terial CALM which occasioned this result were also causes
that had disinclined the people to a hasty adoption of electo-
ral schemes, formed only for the political purposes of a
party, and not to meet the wants sae wishes of the nation.
(Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's ministers themselves admitted
that this was a crude and ill-digested scheme, and had, in
more than one instance, shown that they were
caetemplat-
ing Gull further changes. (Cheers.) Against the second
clause he had voted, beceuse he thought it Injudicious and
impolitic. He thought it a clause that never
would have occurred to men well acquainted
with the circumstancts of the case —he theught
it in fact a meet unstatetmanlike clause, and one
which ought not to receive the sanctien of the Seise of
Commons. He said, emphetical:y that house—because be
would not vote for a bill of which he disapproved, and throw
the responsibility of rejecting lion another place. lee less
a person than tne first minister of the crown himself almost
anticipated objections to the second cause, for he threw it sa it
were into the middle of the house, into the arena of public dis-
cussion, not caring what became of it, and yet this was the ob-
jec. ionahle clause whice was to be carried to another plsce,thus
throwi-g upon another place the reupensibility of rejecting
what was acknowledged to be crude and ligested. Wes
that the way to treat "another place"? (Laughter.) It
certainly was not deoeroue in the minister. Still less was it
in those who, disapproving of such a clause, and hiving re-
giaterel their vote against it, were prepared now t s vote for
the third reading of the bill of which that clause firmed so
promise at a part. He held that the essence of the suffrage
was, that it was a privi.ege and not a right.
Fur his part, he believed that the people of Ireland were
equally cap ible to exercise the same rights as the people of
Englar.d. To announce that they were differcut from the
people of England was to tell ui that the genius of Ireland
was incapable of making the exertions and erj eying the
necessariss of Englishmen.
Lord J. RUSSELL would not detain the house long from
• division, because he did not thick, if ha were capable of
a 'dressing the Ileum very long, that this bill required on the
third :ermine much exp:anation or defence. Here was a
grievauce, and they proposed a remedy. Ile would not go
into a detail of tee small num see of el, eters existing in the
Various counties in Ireland, hat he woull sly perm-01y
ape- king, that looking at the e.ectora for counties in Eng-
land, Scotland, and Wale', they varied from 25 per cent. as
the lowest to 32 per cent., wheel was the highest, and an
avereeee of about 29 per cent. was, for Great Britain, the
average of electors for counties. When they Cl4llO to Ireland
it was not 2.1 per cent, 20 percent., or 10 per cent., but it
was 2 per cent.—(hear, hear)—of tee Welt mole population
of Ireland. Was not that • grievance which, when it was
brought before the house in a bill proposing • remedy, it
was lit for the house to entertain. But we were told that
we departed altogether from the franchise by tenure, ethic',
had been the frau:hew in our English counties. It he un
&retool hen. gentlemen opposite they meant to mai stain some
such franchise as that which existed in England ; if he under-
stood them to maintain that thc 495. fretkold ought to he
restored in In land, and that wan the franchise they were
prepared to detend, ho could understand them saying we
prop aid n franchise which should put Ireland on a footing
with England. But they proposed no such remedy. Did
they propose even to eimplity the franchise which now
existed; to take the franchise of the 101, to make it more
eimnle, as some time ago it was argued it ought to be, and
make that the franchise for Ireland? By no weans they
did not even propose that scheme. Therefore be laid
down, as the first preposition, that the gri- caeca being
real and oalpeble, of great infer.erity in Ireland,
as regarded England and Scotland, they did not propose any
rem ity of a similar kind. West was the sort of language
which was held by the hen. end learnt,' gentleman, the
member for the University of Dahlinesuad the hon. gent/email
who had last spoken. Oecrsetting the questiou of franchise,
and the right of voting altogether they told us there were
other remedies, other kinds of laws, laws affecting the eels-
' don of landlord and tenant to which the legislature ought to
attend and not to pay attention to the extension of the fres-
, chise. Such was the langetare which was rlwaes held in
derpotic counties. There, seething could be so mischievous
s s political riehts ; freedom of the press, the exerelle of the
right of voting, were political questions, and it was the business
of government to take care of the paternal interests of the
people, and to look after fiseeries. (" Hear, hear," and
lauehter.) Teat political franchise was the source of dig.
ord:fr and revolution, and ft ma that they mint carefully se.-
stain. In England we had learnt • totally rhtlerent lesson—
vie , that if men had the right of sending members to this
house, if they were conscious they were represeated with
rega:d to the great interests of their country; that if they
knew that they whom they sent as representatives had
power to control the expenditure of the country; to give ad-
vice to the crown ; to take a part in all leg:. beim affecting
the person and property of their ecuntsymen ; they
w that by these rights they w. re mist,' in
rank, they were raised in dignity, and so far from
being lees able to become wealthy, far from being less able
to leek after the material interests—that very freedom made
them still more able. The bill proposed, and righ.ly
proposed, that instead of 40s. which led to r :radial abuses,
of crowd.; of vassals being driven to a place to support some
landlords, end then trained by pelfricel see:a:ton to vote
against thmelandlerds; that,instead of a franctie:e established
in 1829 and afterwards enlarged in 1831, a hich had been
thought to be so difficult and so open to Woad, government
proposed a bill which should be simple in its endure, by
which persons having a vote should not be *Mir el to deice
the vote, but sheuld be enabled by the guardian of the poor
to exercise the vote whenever an election should take pleas.
I Then the member for King's Lynn said this was tar toe
extensive ; it you had put the franchise at 121. you would
have an intel:igent set of met, but, as you have put it at
Si'., you will swamp all the intelligerce. He did not think
the noble lord could give any proof that persons rated at 121.
were persons of intelligence and that those rated at St. were
not. Government haul taken a franchise as to person,
paying rate, which showed that they were solvent persons ;
and they had likewise taken persons that, in their numbers,
did not come up to the county voters of England or of the
continent. They had not token the franchise exceedingly
low; there was no proof that the franchise had been taken
excessively low. Then the hon. gentleman referred to the
second clause with regard to joint tenants. He (Lord J.
Russell) hell that clause to be of almost immaterial detail.
He really did not believe there would ba many joint tenants
in a county. Compere this to the splitting of land
into 403. freeholds, because it must be a tenement
of 161. a year at the least to have the two votes.
Taking the anslegy of the Reform Jet of England they had
put in this clause, but if gentlemen who represented Ire-
land thought this clause would have a mischievous effect,
he was ready to amend the clause. Ile did not lay any stress
on the clause, but on its gunnel effect. He had heard that
it would diminish the nu ether of voters ; but he said again,
that it was • clause to which he did not attach very great
importance. Teen the hen. gent:man who spoke last said
they were legislating on the famine which had taken place
during the last two years. The hen. gentleman did not
know that this diminution had been progressive. He found
the statement made in the house in 1841, and what had
since taken place in 1819. He band that in Cork the
number had diminished from 5,735 to 3,70 in 1841. In
1e49 it bad again diminished to 3,686. The di
=elution previously to 1811 was 2,000, and the
diminution in 1549 was not more than 100.
In Tipperary it was 4,143. 2,163, and 1,157.
And it appeared very clearly that this was a diminution not
sawing to fnwine, but was a diminution owing to the nature
of the franchise. Then the hon. gentleman the member for
Buckinghamshire had a strong reason against the bill which
with them (the government) was a strong reason for it.
The hon. geutleman says there wee no feverish excitement,
no clamour for this measure. Why, if there was a feverish
excitement it would be said that they were yielding to it.
But es the right hon. gentleman the Master of the Mint haul
told them before this wee the time for increasing the fran-
chise and enlarging the liberties of the Irish people,
especially because it was a time of calm and quiet,
and they granted this increased franchise to justice
and not to agitation. The measure fruit proposed
to ;dice the people of Ireland with regard to representation
in as good, perhaps not quite so good, a position as the
people of England and Scotland were. But it was sound in
principle that they should not be treated as inferior to E tR
land and Scotland, because they had a right, when they soul
that England and Scotland had certain franchises, to have
the equivalent for those franchises. That right they had not
urged with agitation—they had not urged it by clamour;
and so much the more did it became their justice—did it
become their wisdom—to unite the people of Ire-
land to the people of Great Britain, by showing them
that by equal freedom and equrl franchise they had
full confidence in the manner in which they would use those
franchises, and that they wished them to have all the free-
dom of any part of this kingdom. (Loud cheese.)—Tae
house then divided—

For the third reading
Against it
The result was received with loud cheers from the opposi-
tion, and with responsive cheers from the ministerial side of
the house.
The bill was then read a third time end passed.
ELECTIONS (IRELAND), FEES (COURT OF COM.
MONJ PLEAS), POLICE, AND IMPROVEMENT
(SCOTLAND) BILLS.
The amendments to these bills were considered and
'greed to.