The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-08 00:00:00

this Rikeili "pied that the government had in view whet
they emotephoped thes Eneambered BMW affily .W
of width
manure rty we" aim MI off Made
those who Nod not a sliUlbsi to missed In Mailmportementt.
The hoses had bikes it all the tests whisk were mosseary to
torsi ajedgment tpsn'; and he hoped the mean would
not be supported Mier from a holing that the mat
were not prepared to miroarap, by every mein,
the eisploymout of kbour in IMAM. or koms desire te
courage hopes whisk would, he felt nmenedi, he ultimately
dasappolated.
Mr. U. HERBERT the figtoMm,•md.iisolt the
impertanity of readies elnelleistlig the ohs-
rector of ortala defaulting Main if din the west of Ire-
land Yrden the charge. alleged against then by Mr. Bright
in a previous debate.
Mr. BRIGHT substantiated kis el trationi 'upon the
authority of the palate Joireall ell inland. Prising
tot the question before the - house, be advc sated the
appointment Of the esamiesion. The . right lusteur-
abie baronet Sir George Grey) mid Mr. Bright is in
the habit of instituting inquiries with regard to a variety of
matters. He door sot hesitate to order an inquiry with
respect to an explosion la a coal mine, or an accident mishit
trom a mill In Lancashire, or • steam-boat boiler on the
Tomas. Way then did be objets to as inquiry
present case? I have heard nom very wed
panne that, on a moderate calculation, one death is mused
on the average by the eviction of one family in Ireland. I
do not say that that statement Is menet ; bat I think ft might
be easily shows, that there Is sot meek exaggetratim In it,
in reference ta as inclement sossest; the prom sedition of
put. of Ireland being sash. that whoa whole families are
turned out there an very fsw ponces who area anfficiently
comfortable endition to give them refuge by night, or food
by day. Throe is one proprietor in this distract who has
evicted not lam thaa 1025 pinata; that will give about 20C
familia, and if there be a death for every family
evicted, sad several persons have stated to me that such is
the ease it follows that about 200 deaths have resulted from
the evictions on this ono estate. (Hear, hear.) Now
this Mate is not the property of en embar-
rassed parson—(hear, hear)—it is not in Chan-
cery —(hear, peer)—it is not In difficulties. except
indeed, the difficulty of being owned by a man who hes, I
take it, mither bean nor head. (Hear, hear.) It is time
that the unlike of the governmeat were turned to this
subject, in order that the_ pooled= may dad the moans of
obtaining • livelihood. Whether we hays regard to politicall
economy as a Mena, or whether we have regard to the
morality of &delimit", the owner of that estate has no
right whatever to come and sweep from the estate, the popu-
lation which exists there ; and if he be not embarrassed, ii
he lave money at his disposal, I say there is not • karma
being ia existence who Quest to be mare generally scouted
from society, than the individnel who could commit atroci-
ties like those which have been brought before the house.
(Chien.) Besides this estate, there are many others in a
different cooditioo. Many of the estates in the Kil-
rush Union may fairly be described as bound up
with settlements, entail. jointures. mortgages, and
judgments to such a degree ;hat it is impomiole for them in
their present state to be properly cultivated. It his bees
said that some of these proprietors had never been absentees,
bat have spent every shilling that they bad Whetted. Why,
that it numerate their atilt: they have spent every shilling
which they had themselves and every shilling which they
coald get from anybody else. (Laughter.) They are now
in a position of irreta it 'able ruin, and the population, which
would probably hare bean comfortable bad they (the landed
proprietors) bees prudent, are in the lamentable condition
which has been described. It has been stated
that a rate of three sbillicp in the pound Is paid is
the district now under consideration. I should like to know
what rents are paid in the Klinish union. (Hear, boar.) ,
Three shillings In the pound is not a sufficient rate to levy
whilst the proprietors of that onion US continually coming to
this house end asking for grants whit amount of 20,0001. or
30,0001. per annum. We have been offering • bonus to the
proprietors to exterminate the people, and to neglect the culti-
vation of the land. The starvation of the people is always attri-
buted to the potato and to Providence ; whereas I believe it
is traceable to the psrmanence which is given by the kris-
Man of this house to old and stupid customs which
were established long ago and which are totally
unsalted to a period when the population is so
d nee, and when, If the people sre not employed in the
cultivation of the land on commercial principle, nothing re.
mains for them but starvation, and nothing for proprietors
but en increase of poor rates. (Cheers.)
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said that, though he did not expect
much benefit from the adoption of the motion, knowing the,
philanthropy of the hon. mover, and the deep interest which
he took in Ireland, he could not rouse hi vote.
Atter a few words from Mr. Moose,
The Earl of ARUNDEL said that no hon. member had
denied that the miseries endured in the union of Kilrush
were almost unparalleled in the history of any civilised
mashy. Ho felt graistul to the hon. member for Stroud
for introducing hie motion.
Mr. P. SCROPE, in reply, aid that without some such
step as he tad proposed, everything would probably be lett
in as present state year after year. He believed that a
sensible man, entrusted with adequate powers, would
easily remove the existing evils, and fiud employment
tor the distressed population. He ihougat that
they would not be acting properly if they did not take
some steps immediately to esploy the famishing popula-
tion, who would otherwise be found goes beton the
act Lc the sale of encumbered estates was in lull operation.
(Hear, heir.)
The house then divided—

waiting legislateree He would say *Reword to those gentle-
men in the heneirerke now, moording to the Marquis of
Anglens, put theft kepi is slack water. He would call en
these hoe. *tailcoat to resellect in what position we stood
now in 1810. Surely the threat made by an hon. gentleman
is the hoses for ea appeal to the country was still ringing in
their leers, and were they to forget the last appeal of tie
same sort, the electioa of 1841 ? If that was an
eketion in which corruption et every kind on.. est,
Iwkabwould be snob. en appeal as that with which we were
threareedr Whet tors the MOWS ?. The powers of the
world with its treleeedra trollop would be applied, whilst
intimidation sad tramNlmt =der foot the chartered riehts
of the ternary would tie more unblushing than err. The
*at peorodea destisa woe of that nature. What Ike sent
lisotlea would be, he slat to the hoar to Arid&
*sit be sae rllllllllll sear of demoralieetioe. An aprmtwo
the speatry rear as appeal from the snoop I.
Is the weak, ea appeal to wealth to deal pith poverty,
and aa appeal to a More of Lords to elect a
Horse of Crafter. No effort bad bean rade to prove
that the ballot would he as adequate shield fee latiridatioa.
Oseraptisa sad bribery would be in she small soarituesoles,
they were Gorr* already, they eould not be made more
irrupt let the ballot act as it would. lie begged to ray au
wok on the vain attempt that bad been made by resent
lenialatios to deal with the least of the evils of eureleeteral
system, the evils of overt bribery. We had made laws strin-
gent enough against overt bribery, whilst they entirely omit-
ted the p lion of secret bribery, and they pasted over inti-
midation by exclusive dealing, which contained in itself the
very essence of bribery, as not worth noticing ; in short,
they. strained at a gnat awl swallowed a camel. Now re-
done dealing, which was the right arm of intimidation,
contained is itself the very memo of bribery ;"and, in the
worst form of eases to which he could refer, he would
show the &thrown brines the two. In the. ore of sim-
ple bribery the elector was rewarded for gelling his pas
science. He bad known valor our in which an elector
by simply selling his vote had saved his family
from ruin, end trma starvation by the sale of the vote.
Although this was not defensible, there might
exist extenuating circumstances about it. You rewarded
him for selling his conscience, but in exclusive dealing you
puaished a man by taking from him • sum of money for
following the dictates of his conscience. Which of the two
wart the first offence ? Then, again, in their efforts to
elasticate, they had actually paved a bill by which rrintirs
impossible for say person to stand against treewtery and
rascality, and that was by the way they bad dealt with the
law of agency. By the law of agency, as it stood at present,
a man conversing with • candidate, being seen with him
in a committee room, or walking with him, inch
a men might go and give • sovereign to any elector, end the
member was straightway ejected from his seat. On this
subject he had taken the opinion of several electioneering
• and their opinion upon the point was, oa the foots
being stated in a petition, that • person !teeing been IWO in
the company of • candidate, end simulating agency, such
• eircurestence might be fatal to the candidate. Having
pointed out these several defects in legislation
believing that that house could afford no prone:
Lion against intimidation and spire' general bribery
except by the ballot, all he could say was that he had argued
this question from an honest consciousness that it was a
measure due to the people of England—a measure called for
by justice and humanity. He committed the slight sketch
be bad given of the ballot question to the indulgent conside-
ration of the bones, prepared to hear whatever reply might
be offered to the argument be had put forward in its support.
(Cheers.)
Lord D. STUART rose to second the motion. He
said that the hoc gentleman had done hinted( credit
and made his name diet to the people of England by the
consistent, and able, and not always unsuccessful manner
in which he had advocated this question. For be it re-
membered that there was now on the journals of the House
of Commons a resolution to the effect that its the electien for
members of parliament the votes of the electors ought to be
taken by, way of ballot. He believed that this was
the darling measure of the people, and that it was one
to which they were mcst justly entitled. It was
demanded by all who were electors now, becalm they felt
that it affected their comforts, sad in many instances their
fortunes, the heppiners of their lives, and the support of
their families. The great body of electors were also most
anxious to see the Latin passed, beaten they looked at
it, in the hope that when the great boon which thej
demanded was accorded to them, it might not be
a mere delusion, but indeed a reality. The motion
lately aside by his hon. friend, the member for
Montrose, if it had been carried, as carried it would be, sooner
or later, would have conferred upon the people this prat
advsntsge, as well as many others. He was in favour of
that great and comprehensive motion, he was in favour of
every part of it, but particularly in favour of this, end
without which he did not believe that the people eould
really and substantially have that which the con-
stitution granted to them. Were there not many
who were induced by fear or interest to vote contrary to
their consciences aid to their own opinion t Itallot, by
makings vote secret, would do away with this, prevent in•
timidatton, and the possibility of corruption. He found It
very difficult to believe in the sincerity of those who made
use of the argument that this measure tended to promote
deceit. H. thought that they could not be very sincere,
or at least could not have looked very closely into the
question. He believed that the indisposition felt by those
who opposed the ballot was not ("untied on the motives
alleged, bat that, if analysed, they would be found to be love
of pow.. r, and a nation that they had a right to govern the
pertple. They talked of the great influences of
W' .

of property.
lien a man who had property wu found to be Just, and
looked by . .

For the appointment of a commit,ee 63
Against it
VOTE BY BALLOT.
Mr. H. BERKELEY. in moving for leave to bring in a
bill to Inman the parliamentary electors of Oreat Britain
and Ireland from undue influence by the use of the ballot,said
that it there were any need for an apology for bringing
forward !his quesion, it would bs because the hoar at that
moment was rather late. He would impress upon the boos
that he would confinue to preys the qu,stim until some more
competent member undertook to bring it forward. He found
in her Majesty's speech at the opening of the session, a very
sound constitutional maxim laid down. It was to this effect,

was _ up Co thcies around hint, bat was
the just influence of property. It was said that
the ballot would not be effstitual. He admitted that
that might happen in small towns, but the conclusion was
that the franchise ought not to he continued in those places,
but given to larger electoral bodies. He did ItA think it
would be a panacea for all evils, that it would not have
some disadvantages. It would be much better that the
electors had the Independence to resist influence, end that
the persona belonging to the higher classes were too high
mindtd to stoop to intimidation a..d corruption. But they
must legislate for men, not as they ought to be, but as they
were. Then, it was said that the ballot would be illusory,
because others would tell thsir votes. He did not think

" that by combining liberty with order, by preserviog what that en elector would be so suicidal as to proc:aim whit he
is valuable, and by amending what is detective, you will bad done. He wanted the people to have the power which
sustain the fabric of oar institutions as the abode and the the constitution ranted to them—that of electing their own
shelter of a free and happy people." No sentiment representatives. Whatever tended to place the hawse in the
could be more constitutional, but be would submit to her situation of being the real, and not the sham representative
Majesty's government that when such a philosophical state- of the people, would tend to improve and render more
meat cam* from the ministry the people would expect to independent and more moral the pourer classes of society,
gather some fruits, and when they had such liberal prind- and tend also to improve and make better these in
plea laid down they were led to suppose that they would be the higher classes, and would tend mere than anything else
followed by liberal effects. He was there to ask the house to the general welfare of the nation. Fur these reasons he
to carry out the maxim that was proposed by heartily supported the motion before the house.
her Majesty's government. He wee there to ask Sir G. GREY differed altogether with the hon. member for
them to preserve what wu valuable by securing Beistol ;as to the vast importance to be attached to the ballot
purity of election, and he was there to ask them to aid he did not believe that he bad ever stated that, in;
amend what was defective by introducing a shield between his opinion it wu • question of much impirtance, When
the electors and those corrupt persons who wrested from • he had voted for the ballot, he had done so without any
man his right to put it to his own purposes. He canal great confidence in its success, but merely in deference to
dered the ballot to be the primary step to all other Measure% the opinion, of his constituents, to whom be owed so much
of r. form, because it was the stipples-stens to liberty. He and who had given him such' very disinterested support.
considered that in seeking to carryout that measure he would That the object proposed to be attained by the ballot, that
be acting in • manner weigh was most unpalatable to the of protecting parties from an undue influence, would
members of that house. In doing so, however, be be attained, he did not believe. Indeed, he agreed
was attempting to alter no constitutional principle; vary much with the opinion that bad been expressed
he sought merely to protest the elector in die• a few nights since by the hon. member for Middlesex, that
the advantages and disadvantages of the ballot had
charging that duty which they had entailed en him,
both been overrated, and the more consideration he had been
end because In discharging that duty he was not protected
fr.m those abstractions and abuse which had crept into
able to give the subject, the more he etneurred in the pro.
as the system, and which were notorious as longitude piety of that view. So far from its p
anding bribery, his
belief was that in small constituencies it would be practised
latitude in navigation. This siuple proposition, simple es it
in the most wholesale manner, for it might be done in such
seemed to him to be, had @Drape been met with the most
lively antagonism ; minister after minister came down to that a way as to render detection a matter of extreme dies-
houseprim-
driven to their wits' ends to prove tint there was some cony, and the bringing to conviction the persons
violent and vital objection to a man's discharging his duty nab tiaiair it a thing almost impossible. He was may. t,
. oilentio which enabled him to Methanol his duty tine non. admit that there were cases in which it might
Arvidisig to the recent defection of this home secretary from give security to the voter, aired enable him to exercise
smog the advocates of the ballot, he called on the hon. his franchise without being subject to external control, but
baronet to explain the reasons which led him th„. were exceptions, and Ina baud was, that in the gnat
now to vote *smolt • measure which he bad mejoriey of eases it would be wholly inoperative, one way or
supported in 1838 and 1842. An appendix an the the other. He did not believe that the ballot, if adopted,
evidence taken by the commune. in 1836 was to be would do the injury anticipated by some of its opponents,
found in those election committees which sat from that because the record of votes at the poll was not, in the vast
day to this. Year by year he proved that the same majority of cases, the ant indication of the reference of
corruption, the same state of demoralisation was found at the voter for any particular candidate. Whenever the
thew elutions that had been hid before the house by the particular opiniors of a candidate were marked
committee in 1836. As to the golden.. then could be no and distinct, and also those of the electors, it was
mistake in the world. Then, he asked, which was to be pretty well known how the latter voted, so that whether
akin t the bell and bate la"rikil of any right has' gaide. secret or open voting was practised, publicity would un-
man, im his position be what it might, or the statement of • *inns mhe believed, to be the mums of English election
nitallal atm 'lath ? Had aba hal" kaidded what warprooiedings. The question next came as to the expediency
stated by the boa. member for Binniaghase, an hon.member of adopting the ballot. He did not believe that its adop-
who gateway spoke his mind ? Did he not state, and
, lion would be expedient. As he had said before, he bud
would he not State. If Called on, °I" no .letii°n 63" voted for it in deference to the wishes of his constituents,
plus in that great city which he npneeeted without at but he stated at the time that he did so with reluctance.
least 1,000 of the electors being unable to vote ..c .
by intimidation ? and that was withclut a ealculation sa .M. GIBSON, amid loud errs of " divide," said
ot the number of electors who did vote by intimidation. that this
discussion.
far too important a question to be decided
Then there was one member who did him the honour to without (" Divide.") It seems there is im.
dMe motion In 1849; no man was more capable of seam patience at the slightest deacon= on the question of re-
iti(jelang eWviilliaeaVh—anwhoth.,
aphttia'hilas oewninb.erxpeforrienMer tililtellodf—a alt rm. (Hear, hear.) Why, hon. gentlemen opposite had
led for • ditiion before the right hon. the Secretary of
firsbelue tradesman in the City of London, sbewed the state Suite had an opportunity of declaring the views of the
of intimidation in which the population was placed at every government
election; and he related the eircumstence of an election Sir Q. GREY—My own views only. (Cheers.)
arising in Wales where there was one of the most diagustlog Mr. M. OIbSON was stadia hear that the ballot was to
ejections of • tenant by a clergyman for not voting. These be an open question. (Hoer, hear.) Now he wished to
eases arose se an election occuionally took place make a remark to agricultural members especially, who
either by the death or retirement of • member, seemed an impatient. The hon. member for Buckinghamshire
es in the ease of an election in Hasapthire. had lately expatiated much on the importance of having the
When we had such cases as them, where could he find the independent voice of the tenant farmers of England ex-
increase of virtue in the upper classes ? He should trouble pressed in parliament. The hon. member was desirous
the house with no father remarks on 'the opinion of the that the °Manna of that class should be obtained free from
right hon. "mailman than simply to say, he eked him to all external influences, and that they should be treated as
show to the house whether the increase of virtue was in the an intelligent and independent body of men. (Hear, hoar.)
upper Masses? He asked him to show why, if the ballotwes He (Mr. Gibson) was prepared to treat them in that spirit;
good and expedient in 1838 and 1842, it was bed end inexpe• and for that purpose he would give them the protection of
dient in 1848,1849, and 1860 ? The opponents of the mea- the ballot, in order that they might give their unbiassed
sure would not resort to the old and exploded argument (be- votes at elections. (Hear.) What he asked was this—what
cause the eouatry laughed at it) of maallnees and tumuli- public advantage did yon attain by compelling men to
aces, and of this being English and that un English. make known their votes ? The advocates of the present
Tiny would not resort to the twaddle of telling us that system of open voting said that • man must give his vote
it was cowardly to use their vote and to conceal it. under certain restrictions, one restriction being that he
They might just as well tell us that it we. cowardly to use should be compelled to publish It to all the world. But If
a watch and then to conceal It, for the political intimidator yes established such • restriction, you were bound to
had no more right to your vote than the pickpocket had to show its advantages. Wee a sun to vote as he wished or
your watch. Perhaps they might hear it said that the was he not? That was the question. (Hear, hear.) He
peplos wen not so aniline as they were beaus the people (Mr. Gibson) believed that the house would say that every
di i not ask the ballet ae they did t that the question was not man was to vote asoording to hie conscience. Well, then, if
so mush argued and agitated. Lot the beware bow they by your compulsory publicity :you compelled a man to vote
used that argument, for it told againstthem, sad confirmed 'otherwise than he would have voted, had he the protection
what the people said—that goverment would yield to tip- of the ballot, you violated the principle on which you had
tation what they denied to reason. It sonfinsed the opinion given him the vute-,-namely, that of voting wording to his
given by the straightforward Marquis of Anglian, who said conscience and uadentandieg. (Hear, hear.) If, on the
that the old whip were cumin to float, and when it otter hand, publicity had no effect, and • man
became them to retire from the bask water they slipped voted publicly as he would have don* secretly, Asa the
said.. Let them beware when they used such arguments I restraint in question was inoperative. In litter case, there-
lest they laid on themselves the Minder of being mere tide fore, there was no argument or the oontinuanos of the nom-