The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

oilman ,tkb..sbuseats, Theemiag the army, navy,
A animated te II 627 0001. fee the m►
rJtst trap it incensed semeseeively millinn talt•
last vear, whoa h amounted to 20,000•8004.
Ws IS.:
owe an Menem of nearly 10,000,0010 i. Tine were.
ing
ether hi"
mode up the difference, which appeared
by the ret.laties of hie hon. friend. The net ropiness ef
armv, nave, mistance. in the your 1847 amenmitaff
• i ih. ye.r 1848 to 18,602,0001., sad is
17,615,0001. This skewed on the avenge
of
*" the three yews es lawmen Wt it was not
•..1. to deny. What dad the right heasephie
V
gen:leen in lie &skid tut thorn limas inertia beer=
ions ear a redaction Withal the lest two years, beg he eat
wo
deny that there was a rapid Merman tram the year
rot until It amounted to 6,000,0001. The denial 01 the
eight lion cenleman was a perfect quibble, and he did not
wive, toe suck as important statement. beelooo two
14, wie in tne expenditure of the country was owing
to the iineese in the army and navy. His bon.
mad had been moat esedid and lair in even.
ibis' that kit ha laid before the Mere. 8n far from
the tint rewind= being contrary to fait, ant solar from the
hone twirl wasted is rejecting it se being incorrect, be
"ad eel. on the home to give their rapport to
it tress.* the allegations contained in it were
„ffrec., and beams' the statements made was
li anerdann: with the returns which had teen made
ei:xially. (Hear, beer ) It was his wish to have the
wood port of that resolution anointed. It stated that no
fwiini dancer, or senesery rem of the civil government,
er indiernoable disbursement's for the enviers of our de.
"kiwi, abroad, warranted the continuance of the increase
deliptaditolll. As regarded the Heald resolution, win there
tae nos. gentleman that could at all den] that the taxes
were to heavy that all climes of the com•
~,Ato wove desirous of being relieved from them
Ike w prices had reduced the incomes on the
fin el overybody—(cheep from the protectionists);
sr IMP it r ght that they 51.0n1.1 still maintain the.. espial-
site eetanliohments, and a heavy amount of taxation, while
the to ens of maintaining them were rrdserd ? He now
'scold ask them what confidence could be placed la any
pujg from the Treasury beach ? Was it not admitted that
but for :tic refusal of this house to rive satisiey It. ezpendi-
tare wool I go on increasing? Until the increase in the
income tax was refused they had nit a shilling of re.
ducthta in the exiiehiliture ; then the utimat. S were
withdrawn end new and axended ones made out, and they
were acte .11! forced by the vote of this house, to t.ko credit
to themselves for baring done it willingly. (Cheers.) It
they were desirous to take off the pressure of twain,
they should vote for the resolution. Ltd he maid set,
anxious as be was to maintain public faith, vote for a re-
due' ion of taxation, if they wen, not prepared to 1•110111 the
etproditore, and thus enable them to do so. (Hear.) It
win with that__ view that the proposition wee

made. 110 mod" ank, was net lb*" expend Pure
!spud the wank of the nation, and whether •
lower and less expensive establishment would en-
seer all the porpows which they required either for defence
(I • r weority, and whether they were not perfectly safe in
thcm•elves to the following reeponti.in which woe
at lag one. Leeapitalating many of the statistical state-
masa a:reedy offered by Mr. Cobden, Mr. Hume argued
(1;0 the enormous extent of our military establish
rams wo a great impediment In the way of 'wormy, the
c .cro.ti•nt had shown no 'mon for maintaining
(Les cc their peewee footing. He would Tll3lUf•
10 0.133. that if konoorstle gentlemen were do.
ot 01.-b a redaction they won d agree to • resole
ti:n L.) .! le her Majesty's iovernment to know what
yea tte '.earet of the country as this matter, and he was
woa:dda so if they wished to carry out th« desires
• c•eri•u-nte. He hoped they would pledge. the
„run. n: to bring back the expenditurefree rs present
ttat in which it existed in • time of perfect
i cadet a government in which they bad
retry r.• te plate conk wow. (Hear, has.) He
w, r•.' tray before they rejected this p inure,, if
•, re lam tax etion, to be jest, sad to take off
ear nai•ure to enable them t maks the redaction;
en: la to the eounwy • desire to do their best to
j:s t r Her. 05. (" flew," and cheers.)
1:0.e.R1E5 esi4 Vat the honorable gentleman who
• •:..t ,„own had venting to affirm that no penes
c Wart :a LI desire to effect the reduction of the
we,ciel not gee his vets in support of the n.otion
c: t•
he t • for the Wen Riding of Yorkeitire. Now,
. .r. s) assns of thew who were sin-only desi-
r 'ea Ltt• the taxed" bat he thought it right to
i.,•c lee cold sitk equal eirrerity object
t .4 of tie hmoarable gentleman. (Cheers.)
7-1: a ,U.l no: at all be inconsistent with hie sine,-
: :In ::'e :tilt:M. He did not think that it was the
went law eammittee to say where they
Allselene, and he thought that if boa.
'Mt /I inn is Omit iatenti:ns, they would have
w,i e u :kr ar•poitioas which were ohnox•ons to thus
s, n.ade ymmittw. (Hear, hear, I Hs thoubt

.I,e ROM woe allerad was bat a Serra blind,
`are II) ether e get than that ot tater-

which they preteoded to have in view.
g ary o•her fact than the statement
•• t. The hon. m•m'xr said, that no foreign
- etessary east of his civil government, sr Maio.
pet•et.e f.:l the Ferries of our dependsnedes
rial. the contituanes of this l:.creme of our
Ha total not went to the spirit in which
. 7 rd. lie e-mid not declare that the state of

• $92.1 us to warrant a strong military estauli.h.
the weenie was the feet. Toe third props
. " ha the taw required to essaa the present
: • ..tc; Co the eiperatioca of agriculture and mane.
. ziminish the fusde for the employamat of
..r '7 Jul s of productive indunry, thereby tend•
mr1.1.7c pauperism gad crime, gad %doing Is tce local
V.: W• . ..eidear• of the people." To that he entirely
.t erzat occasion woe there for affirming that
7 r •• Me pretest oceesien I Then might bie other
ca..• iiiraVe squat at might be founded no the
.. me! that hoe. reclines ea the other side
• • ia..r a... of this before any great Lag hof time,
•:. acre :3ses magrleulcure sad mane( Icturee were
t it. of szriqes oresideration. (Hear, hear.)
I .: ;Cr =•.:. part of these reso'utioes, the maraca • f thous,
•-• a tte That to' diminish these evi's, it I. eaperiest
Mr take reetpt t 3 redeye the &naafi expe.•diture,
spct tl, to as sweat ant sseeeding the
t7.:a • c.: I:, lest fifteen yews, Las bias proved to
-.• 1.• the maintenance of the security, honour,
a. . .• :he nat. an." Tnat he dented; he would ant
:.rcpcv•icn. It had been proved not to he pl.
t.:. • 3010:, Wags ls which recuctiossmight be mode,
t.. tt s•-,ecti to set resolutious of the pressed kind.
Mr. L. GIBSON said he thoeld vote for this pro-
; .: on the ground that he was most

••• . • ire the policy which the hon. member for
• r•opounded ia 1843, via. the removal ore these
:•
z.et i curled produetien, whieh limited the field for
...t - of Mbour, ethics prevented the progress ana
f particular fabrics and manufactures, and did
rx to the general interests of the public than
t • • • y do good by an amount of us. It was
17 •••••• . oct Mat he was anxious to scrutinies public ex.
: be might be enabled, with; due regard to the
; . to• d.:...r, to repeal these taxes. He had put the
:-. • • : Kale, and arae armaments is the other, and
kt _masa what is the present course to be taken in
r welfare of the population. On the one bard
rapport taxes which might limit the B.ld of
::yraor.t. increase pauperism, indicate Crime, prevent
; ?au.. of knowledge ? Was he'to do ell these things or
'. Lae ir.re &Saralee armament,, to protest them against
”tte :214-miry con'ingent evil which was said to be
.itithem? or, on Member bend, was he to wrigh
• J of these foreign drier., and wet be to consider
•• :ter. ircald ant be more rational to remove these taxes,
t:.• fee tla. relief to industry which would accrue from
". - f•TZ, • Having done that, with a desire
x. -Lc Iota", the course which was best for th t general
¢. revs of the community, he had come to contitler how
11-.1 laid:.' redoes the warlike armament, and might
•.a..plus to the repeal of thou taxes which were
l••• '1•11 industry, and inereeing pauperism and cat. Toe President of the Hoard of Trade did not fairly
r.rr i.s• cis hon. friend ; he said he would not follow
advise of the hoe. gentleman, and abandon
t. • A...as.' of the country ; h_ would not leave
its.l entirely unpmtected, Inmost a navy and an army,
tudy Lad asked them to disarm entirely ; they h id asked
: re to 'guider whether there was that probability of
s" danger wkieit could lucent fur and reaninable
:Whim in their defective armament. He thought hie :—. friend Lad brought four ad his motion in a proper
rat 17 fixing upon a macular time, when our
r.• xd expenditure was at a lea amount than it was at
1r 't.'. 4.1 calling upon the executive government to ex-
IM lea why the Menem since a particular time should
ean a permanent addition to our national expendi.
woe not sufficient for government to account
to
sec t lnsciary inereues from temporary Caul.* ; what they
t tee: werewax, What Cu the r.a•on we were to hive a piir.
:came of the expenditure of England nearly six
:llmitus 'o'er what it was in 1&36? It was fur the govern-
Cl', so that the pro.eetioe in 1836 was inadequate. If
re tit'''lonfo in 036, it was In them to show
;. "ont circumstances had arienta sisal 1835 which
'". E 4.4 L. t.ret creat-d expenditure. He denied the allegation
e of 153 S was B:titian'. and read a variet of I,.t' • I oar" that the quality of stone is the arseny als
!Es were as lag., if nut larger, than at the dose
111. 17n. of the savviest Dime in the a.trunlenl
7, •;' ."? E'S
wen hoe friends proposition was that the defences of
fsediqoate f..r the sifety of the country, and
th't
c 55 reseen be the subsequent increase of
" 4t.L1.4.•
L' The government mutt excuse him for
what wool have been their position at the
Z.llt they had followed the policy they Orli.
v.. :1 "2,1,. 1 h., cm us
e to that hoe, in 1819 2,000.000‘.
a deficiaenc y certainly not of their creating,
„.4„, rf circumstances over which they had no
mot with the ordinary expenditare exceeding the
:•:try propoted to increase that expenditure. fib
the, pursued that pnlley they w now.
wise s'.l a 4 surplus of 2,000,0001., live ould
to deal
" Y.
.:tortey of more than 2,000,0001. Could they.
tt, reform party for aerutinising the Menem of
its then amount On the contain, he be.
_ • thtt 'Le goverr.ment had been materially strengthened
a a much more enviable position by their having t whig government of former times, for by :*.r.g • iyatni of retrenchment they found themselves o 'me... tutted of a deficit. (Hear.) With regard to
onght it wm to an
tEe policyof maintainingopen the p resent inolemari
sad" on
pt up, and that before the speaker left the
:,, • eat tit. limper occasion for submitting such • question
I-rut:tat to,dey as the reduction of our military forego.
,lit !:•• fame manner as the war whicliedea in 1816, 1"rOs Maui quint establishment of what ihne noble lord
6;7 "died an armed peace, so every little sailitery "Act Lad left a permanent addition behind it. As

, the muse probassdi lay ea the *gonernment to show the
lesemity of Ms ineremed ezpasditan, Ids hon. Mend was
potently Justified la asking new for some rational ground far
, immure ws • permanent Marge the addidosal gum of
8, whin was mainly caned by our naval sad mili-
tary It was tree that our colonial policy had bees
china a times Ur tocrocolog our nay. No doubt we had
addmilegebeelenissleourempin, but that was anis answer
to his hen illionto pop adios, namely, that It woo yes
woodio don osissios, instead of being a source of
strongli. abouid be • as,.. of weaknola to us by demise
epos ate isiovious sad war army. (Hear.) He did
sane
Mow Vida was the t amount of the Medltens-
, man len, hot in 1840 we had thirty-on ships there
sod 8,000 lam. Smelt a display a that necessarily
exalted • belief that we had an intention to Invade
some country, or at lean to interfere Ia the interest affairs of
some 'venter. When the people saw so large a fleet,
sad all this army of armaments, It mut be evident to
them that it was not for the purpose of protecting trade.
bat for some political object; so that, instead of its
being any guarantee for peace, it amounted to a constant
ssancouvering and a parade of cur arms is various quarters
of the world, calculated to provoke hostility, excite jeal.,usy.
all, nate and estrange, rather than promote, intimate and
friendly relations. We fancied that the Chinese war, which
bad caused the increase of our fleet in those sear,
had opened fresh markets for this country. But
what was (the Get ? Why that our exports to
Chia and Hong Kong were penally declin-
ing
every year, and would, he believed, soou go back'
to what they were before the interference. Thus would we
have *son ourselves in this position by our Chinese policy
—that we would have to maintain a large fleet in those
seas without any corresponding advantage to this country.
He regretted to my that that hems readily listened to a pro-
ridden from the government [evolving a war with China,
but if added to redoes the tea daft's the newer was
that it was impossible—the state of the revenue
would not admit of it. (Hoer, hear.) And yet he
ventured to assert that no intelligent man in the trade would
say that he would est prefer • reduction of the tea
duties to keeping up a large naval force in the China
seas. Oa the contrary, that he would Infinitely
prefer • larger consumption of tea, at reduced prime, by
which his trade would be extended, than trust to the 'Olney
and chance of extending it by the power of the cannon and
the swor I. As for any unforeseen danger of collision
with a foreign power, he thought such a thing quite
onto( the question. When they considered the power of the
press, the spread of commercial lawmars amongst na-
tions, the interests that must counteract any feelirgs of hcs-
, tility or jealousy that might arise between those nations
where no v.ry extensive trade existed, he tin tight it was
impossible to suppose that any active hostility could
take pine without long and ample preparation, and a
vast deal of public notoriety and consideration. (Hear.)
It was not probable that trifling events, such as the Spanish
miirriarre, could now bring great anions into a state of hoed-
bty. He believed:that his hon. friend wag correct in his figures.
They bad nothing to guide theta but parliamentary deco.
ments—aothing but those means of information which were
open to every other honourable member. And looking at
the returns for 1047, 1848, and 1849, he found it there steed
that the whole naval, military, and ordnance expenditure
for the year ending 6th of January, 1850, was 17,84.5,0001.
Now, seeing that it was only something more than
11,000,0001. in 183.5, he could not understand by what
process of reasoning it was contrived to make out
that those wee not an humus in our expenditure
for then establishments almost amounting to 6.600,0001
Why were we to spend more by six millions in 1849 than we
were spending in 1535? In odium the boos to affirm the
principle of the reduction of the public expenditure to what
it had bora in 1835, there was no pretence whatever for ray-
ing that his hon. friend (Mr. Cobden) was willing to leave
the events/ defencelres. What pround was there for saying
that the country would be left defenceless, when the boa.
gentleman was prepared to allow in large a vita as
19,000,000/. sterling oer annum for naval and military ter-
Tien That sem was more than doubs the amount of the
whole government, including both the naval and
military expenses, of the United States of America.
Hem the larger sum was to be allowed solely
for the expenses of the army and navy of this
smeary. The proposer or supporters of the motion
now before the house were not, therefore, to be ceargel
with any indifference for the security or defence or England,
or say disregard for the hearers of the public creditor.
They claimed, as the ground for submitting the motion
to the house, an earnest deers fer the best interests of the
country, and so to frame our establishment* that they might
correspond with the wants and wishes of the community at
large. Now, as regarded the navy, he hoped that
evening to near sme minutes explain what wee the
meaning of the policy of reducirs the number of ,
men while Mere was no reducion In the num-
ber of efficers. It was an undoubted fact, that some
of our ships were insufficiently manned, while there
was a much greater number of officers than were re-
quired for the service. There were about 150 ad-
mirals, while there was work only for about a doses!
—no one propoen that they should he diminished, although
it was denied there was no work for mom than shot
a dozen. If ve public perceived that year after year
a larger number of officers than were necessary were
supported by the government, although there was not
• member even of the Home of Commons who could get
up in his plate and ny that such a number was necessary,
he thought it behoved tee house to consider the question as
• most serious and important on.-. He appesied to
agricultural gentlemen on the opnnite bercues to
tun their attention to the question in a proper
spirit. They might not approve of his anti-military
views but really they were ant " anti-military,"
for he had not the slightest wish to disparage any of the
cams in her Majesty's service—he beli. veil they had all
the virtues mod insanities of other men, and in all he now
sail, he was merely contending f. .r • printtiple, and advocat
Mg what he thought a sound principle. In that spirit he
appealed to hon. gentlemen connected with the agricultural
interests, and asked them not to tun their backs up on a
motion of such importance as that under their consieera-
tion. To some airs of impatience from the protect i.r iat
members the hon. member replied with tie taunt, that if
some " clap tr p motion " had been proposed, de clinng that
the abolition or protection had readerc.l economy necessary,
their votes wcy..ld have billowed as a matter of course.
(Cl aes )
Mr. HENLEY characterised the motion as insiecere and
impractical. He believed that economy was no• the object
of its proposer., but the manufacture of a stock subject for
agitation. He had himself proposed, last year, a motion for
tee reduction of salaries, and meant to renew it in the pre-
sent evasion.

Lord J RUSSELL laid : With regard to the question be-
fore the house, I must say I Retested very attentively to the
several ape, chat which have been mad.. I thilik the hon.
member for the West Riding made a moat juiicious speech
is support of a meet injudicious motion. It stated that the
public expenditure had been increased to the extent
of 6,000,0001. since 163 i. Any one reading it would
imagine that the segmentation was successive.
Now, that was not fair, for there was no reference
whatever made to the decrease of taxation. Last year the
Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that reduction of
140,000 bad been made then, which added to a reduction
of 700,0001. dam made, decreased the expenditure to the
extent of upwards of 2,100,0001. I don't think it-quite fair
'o speak of nothing but augmentation of the public expen-
diture, when those large reductions were made.
But, then, the right honourable gentleness, the
member for Manchester, says the government are
blued to show how the incense of 6,000,0001. had arisen,
I (seriously should have thought that my right hon. friend,
the president of the beard of trade, showed how the Increase
of 6,000,0001. had arisen, partly in civil establishments,
partly in taking charges on the consolidated hind which
were not taken before, partly in the increase of military
establishments. Either the eight hon. gentleman did not
listen to the remarks of my right hon. friend, or he re-
quires more information on the subject. Now, with respest
to the amount increased on the military establishments, the
hon. member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) says very truly
that it was upwards of 4,009,0001. There is, however, •
great reduction to be made on that sum, because there have
been excesses of eetissates of former years amounting to
642,0001. Them were proportions is aid which were also
planed on the votes of expenditure in the last year amounting
to 421,00).1. and there is an Item for the P. et-office
packet envies, which amounts to an increase over 1835 of no
lam than 737,0001. I bee the attention of the house to this
particular item. (Hear, hear.) The right htn. gentleman,
the member for Manchester, says that this has all arisen out
of increased establishments. Why, • portien of this
737,0001. need formerly to be defrayed out of the revenue of
the Post-office. That course was frequently objected to.
The hon. member for Montrose has often esid the whole ex-
pense of the country ought to come before the view of the
House of Common', and that, if you have a sum taken out
of us before it reaches the exchequer, that sum ought
to be placed la some estimate or other, and be regularly
voted by the house. In poilt of principle that
is very tree, and different governments have
been endeavouring to comply with that request.
But we have no sooner done that, than up gets the right
hon. member for Manchester and says—" Here is an enor-
mous increase!" ("Hear, hear," and laughter.) In point
of feet, the expense to the country is the same in bath cases,
although the mode of voting it ia now more regular than it
was lormerly.:But withlreepect to the other part of the motion,
the icere,se in the public service, allow me to say a law
words. No doubt there hes been a considerable increase
since 1835 ; but the object of that expense, whether wise
or unwise, is not the argument on the preen' occasion.
The object of that expense was to facilitate oar communi-
cation between this country and foreign countries, so that it
is a misrepresentation to say that you hays Increased your

•'military istabli•hseents by even 4,000,0001., when a great
part of that 4,000,0001. was expended for purposes of coin-
linos and 00111 W Inkstioa with other ammo. (Hear.)
These various reduce ' • whole of the raal

Some . the _ amosat
11811111111 ke—mishke e. -.Mistime .4 la 1849 as compared
wlr 1835, te 2,856,0001. (Cheerio.) Well, sow, with
regard to the army, which is the gelation before
as se night—the army has had iscreased duties to perform
Ghee 1836. I will sot now eater into the glandes of whe-
ther or not it is wise to defend our colonies against for
; bat it is gaits certain that the army has bees celled
6 to perform duties of that kind ; and, like every defy
have to poem/I—whether before an enemy in the
or the display of Rood concha at home—they have
performed that duty abroad and at home with all the
morn and propriety which have always distinguished
thus. (lend clean.) Well, but with these increased
deities the whole amount in which there ban lemma be-
yosd 1836 for the votes for the army does not much
exceed 100,0001. It is 111,0001.; and that, con-
sidering the increase of our empire, and the
aitaatiooll to which they have been sent, is
so extravagant or extraordinary image. (Hear, beer.) I
will mention one of the sums in whisk en increase km bees
made, and which it has bees said is always made hr the

based% tithe 'rinses*. One seem of 1111 of lets
yeses bee bon paying the pendent at the Whir. The
make teMasety was untied is the payment. at the end of
the year, slide pension he that peer. Aa arrangement was
introduced by Lard Obetilham, by width 6 per out. was
taken 'Chia pemeism, emi be was paid half-yearly. He Is
ace paid mom fiteleneffy ; and am as a matter of right, bat
ne amsllm Itheine to the soldier, the whole of that
dointlic• fgfse Ma has been taken of, amounting to
me Me limn WOOL a year. (Hear, bur.) Car.
Ml* lbw bail been a very groat bier's's Ice the
WI En suf. That sun wall require the
atalirsYtaof the house when we was to consider '
the may malmatim (Bear, boar.) Bat there is this
to be eseadarod that whatever additional mesas
of tempest we may gain by a steam navy, yet that wa
mug to this imenatay must likewise obtain a great advs.-
taye by • Mum navy, and that it is absolutely
sessonsi is ham a steam navy sufficient to suable u to nape
with our semiales. (Cheers.) That steam navy would not
be set on foot without an increase of expenditure. It was
impossible to sat it on foot without some expense at the
eamumement and afterwards, and I do not think this house
has at all to regret that we now have a etas* navy which Is
very efficient, and which is kept up for the purpose of the
defence of the country. (Rear, hear) With respect to the
ordnance, likewiae, no doubt we have made a considerable
Increase. We stated at &slime the mesons for that 111110.
We stated that the artillery and mignon, being a form
which required Wenn and apprenticeship of a impr time
than the service of the cavalry and infantry, it was desirable
not to let that forte fall too low as you mid sot in the space
of a few months increase it. I believe that to be a sound
reason. It was concurred In in this house; and Ido not
bear that there are any persons of any authority worth
listening to who object to that increase. (Hear, hear.)
' Now, eft, with regard to our evil expenditure, there are
many branches of civil expenditure ; but, before I go to that,
I will state the proposal of the bon. member for the West
Riding as he stated it to the house. He proposed that
6,800.0001; should be reduced from the military estimates,
and that 600,0001. should be reduced from the naval sati-
net's. Whether that proposal was the result of unfit' eon-
federation on his part, I leave him to determine. But there
was one thing which the hoe. gentleman lost sight of. He
says, " I will give you 10,000,0001. fee your military service,
awl no one can complain that in giving you that sum
I wish to comp you." But those estimates are divided into
estimates for effective and nn-effective forces, and, with re.
gard to the whole nearly of the inn-effective, you ere bound
by law and good faith not to diminish this sum, and it is in.
posaible that parliament can touch the sum voted on this
head. (Hear, bear.) This sum amounts at present to
3,784,0001. The sum voted for the effective service amounts
to 10,618,0001. ; and upon these sums the hon. member (or
the West Riding pr posts a reduction of no lees than
6,800,0001. (" Hear, hear," and sheen.) Now, I sh. uld
like to know what the honourable member for War-
wickshire means tO do in that !M. ftt Hear, hear, "
and laughter.) It appears the honourable gentleman is
bound by the general peolution, union he has a plan of his
own, to reduce the naval and military forces of this country;
bat, if this be done, I cannot see how an affective torn tor
the defence of the country will be kept up. I should like to
hear the particulars. Dees the hon. gentleman mean to
propose a reduction of 30,000 or 40,000 men in the army or
of 10,000 or 20,000 in the navy T—for, without some such
reduction as that be made, he cannot reduce the expenditure
by 6,800,0001. Well, then, it will be said that the
civil envies will afford the means of making
that redaction in the naval and military novices
of the county But I must again ask whether or not it is
advisable, without looking rat those several items, to say you
will go bash to the items of 1835 / With regard to many of
these subjects. public opinion has been such that the govern-
ment going with that opinion has proposed a very large im-
ams of expense. There has bees a great increase on the
subject of education, I believe not less than 180,0001. or
200,0001. Now do hoc. gentlemen who talk about tepee-
diture propose tri cut off that increase T There has been
another very considerable sum amounting to Lot less than
670,0001 —that is not all of it an increase—for the constabu-
lary in Irelend, and other expenses of a similar nature.
There is another portion which has increased—civil expellee',
which no person hardly in this house wishes to diminish.
But if they do wish to diminish them, on the occasion of the
miscellaneous estimates being brought on every one of
those votes which are not upon the consolid..ted fund
will come under the revision of the boos:, and
that will be the time when the bone urahie
gentleman can make his proposed reduction. There results
therefore but a small portion of the nix =Wrens, upon which
reductions can fairly be wade; and I put it to the hone,
whether they would agree to; a general resolution which
would seem to redge the hem to a reduclon of six mil
lions, while perhaps refusing many necessary services, and
sot agreeing to the veers which we find It necessary to pro-
pose, and they actually found that two mal.ion was the
utmost to which they could reduce the ex; end titre.
But then the honeurable member for the West
Riding (or Yorkshire, has a convenient proviso Sri h
respect to this nevi .n. There seems on the face
of it somewhat of imorudence in saying, whatever may
'be the state,: of the country, or whatever tie danger
that may arise in three months, or a year, or two }est., you
will he beforehand what will be the exalt expenditure of
the military service of the country. But then the hon.
gentleman says, " Oh, of come, if there are any circuit-
stuns which reader military prtharatiJes no ',wry, ynn c .n
rescind it." But oth a is the case, I cannot see the use ot the r e-
sole los upon it. It the house is to exercise its discretion toter
the resolution is passed, why not lie .p it in the first instance t
(Cheers.) Why . should we not say, "here is se obvious
reason for incresaing our expenditure, we are not bound by
any resolution on the subject, and es it Is ebsslutely te-
quired for the safety of the state, we proceed at once to
vote it. Why, if it was not that the hon. gentlemen cannot
be accused of anything of that kind, one might throw that
the accusation against gentlemen who are ambitious far office is
true, that they always have some means by which they can es-
cape from the eonsequencra of their own propositions; because
in that cue, suppose the hon. gentleman was Chancellor
of the ilichrquer, he might come and say, "the circum-
stances of the country are such that the intimates will not
bear reduction, and I ask the house for exactly the rams
estimates which had been 'eked for before." But I b .lieve,
I in fact, without accusing the hon. gentleman of anything ci
the kind, that he hss rather committed himself by some
speeches he made in the country—(hear, hear)—in w Aida
he said " the expenditure has increased ten milieus since
' 1835 ; it Is a very pre fl gate expenditure, a. d it is all done
for the promotion ot the sons of the aristocracy and we art
bound to reduce that expenditure." He friehurned himself,
and he frightened the country very mucB with these declara-
tions. We are to consider, in every me, the injury that may
be done to commerce by the interruption of amicable relation'
an interruption which in any eme I sincerely regret. I
know how mischievous it Is, but which must arise, in de.
mends which the government of this country thiuk it neces-
sary to make when redress has been asked for and refused.
We have had no "comment in this country, we have had
no political man is this country, ever since the revolution,
who did not think—and that most pacific of minister', Sir
Robert Walpole, as much or melee than any ra.n—that if I
English subjects were injured, it was right to ask, by force of
arms, far a redress of those injuries. It would he quite a new
policy in this country if a minister were to take any other
course. air, with regard to this motion, then, I hope the
house will not interpose a resolution of this kind in the way
of going into. committee of supply. The hon. gentlemen
the member for the West Riding, who has brought forward
this motion, and who is fond of political predictions, predic-
tions which have not been always successful
(" hear, ham" and a laugh)—on this subject of ex-
penditure, in a speech he made in the country, said, " The
government will not adopt reductions; they will
refuse to adopt economy; some apparent diminution will
be made, but you will ate that the diminution will be (l-
lowed by • subsequent increase." In another part of the
same 'peach he said, "You will see that the government in
the course of time will go battle to the expendom of 1836;
they will reduce the estimates:o the scale of 1835, but they
will not do so when we bring forward the motion for it, be-
cause if so we should be ministers in their) piece, and they
will not therefore consent to do our bidding." Now
these two predictions seem so exceedingly oppo-
site they are so contradictory in themselves, that
it would appear as if one of them must be right, but
I an assure the house I do not think either of them is right.
(A laugh.) We shall not, in the first rlace refuse to mike,
reductices• We have been making reductions since 18.18.
I have already stated to the house that, in our military esti-
mates alone, in these two years we propose to effect a re
duetin of upwards of two millions. With regard to offices,
in the course of last week alone there were two offices that
fell vacant that will not be filled on. There is another
office which I propose next week to reduce in point
of salary; and whenever an occasion happens, if we find
that an office can be reduced, or that the salary is exorbi-
tant, we shall take advantage of the opportunity to reduce
it. And with regard to the two predictions' that we mean
to go beck to the estimates of 1835, I must say, without at
all—

Mr. COBDEN—WiII the noble lor.l tell me where I made
that p.ediatioa.

Lord J. RUSSELL—Why, I read it In a newspaper. I
did net bring it with me, but for the hon. gentleman's
satisfaction I will have the newspaper looked for, and bring
it down to the house for Lim to read. I assure the
hon. gentleman that I pay the greatest attention
to his speeches ; but I was going on to say
that the estimates for 1835 might be the proper estimates fur
that year. We do not think, for the various reasons that are
given for the Lorene. of the naval and ordnance 'Mantes,
sad for the reasons that I have stated with respect to the
Jarrow of the civil estimates, that it would be possible to go
beck to the estimates of 1835 without an undue reduction of
our military and nevi force aid the refusal of many votes
for the promotion 01 education and for other useful purposes,
a course which it would be highly inexpedient to adopt.
We shall, therefore, not propose to go beck to the estimates
of 1835, but we shall be ready, whenever we can with due
regard to the (Maguey of the service, to make reductions.
But we will not, for the sake of popularity, or fur any other
purpose, pretend to make reductions which we think would
be injurioas to the best interests of the country. (Hear.)
There is en obligation resting upon us, to bring forward no
extravagant and excessive estimates, but, :.t the gams time,
not to reduce them blow the point which we think neces-
sary to maintain the honour, the dignity, and the safety of
the empire. (Cheers.)
Colonel SI IiTLIORP rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,"
and owing to the impatience of the house he was very im-
perfectly heard. He was understood to say, with reference
to the motion of the hon. member for Writ Yorkshire and
the estimates proposed, that he thought there was six of one
and half a dozen of the other, end he did not see how he
weld vote for either. lie would advise the noble lord at
the head of the government to beware how he lost his tail;
if he did so, be would probably take care not to be caught in
the trap again. (Laughter.) He had great curiosity to
know how the right boo. baronet the member for Tamworth
Naomi to vote. (Laughter.) The whole system was one of