The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-04-25 00:00:00

MR NORTHERN TI ES.-LIVERPOOL, FRIDAY, APRIL 25, 1886

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

LIABILITIES.

THE EXCHFQUER DEPARTMENT,

THE

(FROM OUR OWN REPORTER.)
HOUSE OF CONINIONS, THUIPDAN

The committee re-assembled this morning at twelve

o'clock

Mr. Collins, chairman of the Chamber of Commerce
for the Staffordshire Potteries, and member of the firm
of Minton and Co., china and glass manufacturers, Stoke,
was the first witness examined. He said : The firm
received about 100,000 tons of clay flint, and other raw
materials per annum, for which they paid Town Dues at
Liverpool. They exported manufactured rods to
America and other countries, and they then had to pay
Town Dues again, at the rate of 2d per crate, whatever
size they might be ; they varied from 2 cwt. to 15 cwt.
The firm exported about 200.000 crates per annum, for
which they paid about £4,000, which, in addition to
inland carriage, was a considerable item. All articles
used in the manufacture of china and glass also paid
Town Dues, and this materially affected the interests of
manufacturers. He did not think they ought to pay the
dues, as they received no equivalent advantage for the
outlay. There was no government duty on their raw
material, or their manufactured goods. Their clay paid
id, and flint 6d per ton Town Dues.
By Mr. Horsfall : The rates on the goods exported,
were paid by the exporters, wha for the most part,
resided at Liverpool.
By Mr. Moffat : Whoever paid the dues, they formed
a tax upon the articles, and increased their price.
By Mr. Vance : They had some communications from
Manchester on the subject, when a committee was
formed in the Potteries ; that was last autumn.
By Mr. Fenwick : If the charges were devoted to
improving the navigation of the Mersey, he would not
object to pay them.
By Mr. M. Gibson : He did not know at all by whom
the amount of those dues was fixed, or that they could
not exceed a certain amount.
By Mr. Horsfall : The advantage which the Newcastle
manufacturer had over the Staffordshire manufacturer
was, that he had no dues to pay ; and a tax of even 6d a
ton no the Staffordshire manufacturers would be a serious

grievance.
By 'he Chairman : He was not aware that the corpo-
ration of Newcastle received only 7-12ths of the Town
Dues, and that the remainder went to the conservancy of
the Tyne.
By Mr. Penwick : He did not know whether there
were any Town Dues_nt Glasgow.
By Sir S. N n.thcote : The coarser part of the Stafford-
shire trade bad fallen off, but the finer had increased.
The coarse was th- most remunerative. The trade of the
Potteries, on the whole, was increasing. Pig iron paid
3d per ton, and manufactured iron 6d per ton. He
believed the local trade had been somewhat deserted, in
consequence of the Town Dues. He thought it would
be greater if it was not for the dues, which weighed
heavily on the marufacturers.
Mr. Rigby, merchant and shipbroker. Runcorn, said
he was a member of the Runcorn Commission. They
had no corporation, and the act of parliament gave them
no power over the river. They did not think the Town
Dues ought to be charged. The town of Runcorn had
long complained of the dues. The distance of Runcorn
from Liverpool was 18 miles. The tonnage inwards of
Runcorn was about 100,000 tons, and 50,000 or 60.000
outwards annually. The amount of Town Dues paid by
Runcorn to Liverpool was about £2,500. No vessel
was allowed to clear out of the Custom House without
showing a receipt for the payment of the Liverpool
Town Dues. The cost of collection was about £6OO. A
poor rate and a commission rate were levied on the dues
to the extent of about ten per cent. They would prefer
the increased trade to the poor rate. Liverpool received
£9OO from Runcorn for buoys and lights, but there was
not one provided by Liverpool between Liverpool and
Runcorn. The rraigation between Liverpool and Run-
corn was very difficult, and buoys and lights were
absolutely necessary, which Runcorn, therefore, provided
for themselves at their own expense. They used to have
a large trade in corn, but it had fallen off until it had
entirely gone, in consequence of the operation of the
Town Dues. Did not think the trade of Runcorn was
generally falling off, but it might be greater it' it was not
for the Town Dues. There was a large trade done in
slate in Runcorn, upon which the dues were 2d per ton.
The charge upon oats was 8d per ton, wheat is 4d.
and is on all other kinds of grain. Salt paid
6rl per ton. Salt was only worth lOs per ton.
He did not consider the town got any advantage from
the dues, with the exception of the poor rates which was
levied on it. The loe il taxation upon Runcorn was
is 4d in the pound, which made the revenue about
£5,000, while the Town Dues amounted to £2500.
By Mr. Vance : The pig iron trade began to be diverted
CIVIL SERVICE COMPETITION. from Runcorn about three years ago. He attributed
Lord GODERICH moved that thelHouse do, to-morrow, this to the dues.
resolve itself into a committee to consider an address to Mr. Arthur Sinclair, secretary to the St. Helen's
the Crown, acknowledging the efforts that have been
Railway and Canal Company, said that this company
made by heads of various departments towards
establishing a system of competition for admission had two docks on the Mersey. St. Helens had large
to the Civil Service, assuring her Majesty of the coal mines and glass manufactories. The Garston Dock,
steady support of this House in the prosecution of the th-i property of the company, afforded accommodation
salutary measures which she has been pleased to adopt, fur ships of 2000 tons. The company had no voice in
and humbly making known to her that if she may be the expenditure of the harbour dues. The directors of
pleased further to extend them, and to make trial of open the company were excluded from sitting in the Liverpool
competition as a condition of entrance to the Civil Service, dock committee, by a clause of the Liverpool dock act.
this House would cheerfully defray the charges incident The company pay harbour dues for the purpose of pro.
to such a proceeding. The noble lord, in support of the viding light ; but they had provided light for themselves,
motion, dwelt upon the advantage that would accrue to in consequence of the money being otherwise applied
the service by competitive examination, which could not
by the Liverpool dock trustees. He did not think Liver-
fail to arouse efficient public servants. pool had any right to levy dues upon the Garston port :
ImiaSoi ry
oSf.
LNoornaT
GB co od Te
rEi,e ihn, e secondingt e tihne
so motion,pp o rt or
fepite,abteodt
but only within the original boundary of the
remarked at the same time, that the eonamissioness had no town, which was very limited. The trade that did not
intention to imply that it would be advisable to apply the use Liverpool, was taxed more than that which
competitive system to promotion as well as to admissions. did. The imports of Liverpool were about £100,000,000,
Promotions, he thought, should take place by recom- of which £lOO,OOO or ten per cent was collected.
mendations from the heads of departments. The dues were charged upon vessels merely passing
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER while acknowledg- Liverpool, and nothing was received for the money.
ing the advantages of the competitive system, subject to The ships coming to St. Helens paid Dock Dues at
qualifications, deprecated any step that would transfer
the discretion or remove the responsibility of the Govern- Liverpool, which was a mere passing toll, for which
they received no benefit whatever. The Dock Dues
meet.
Mr. GLADSTONE supported the resolutions, and replied were subject to the revision of three gentlemen—the
to the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. mayor of Liverpool, the chairman of the dock estate,
He believed that the adoption of such a measure would ' and the chairman of the Cheshire quarter sessions.
provide a stimulus to education, and would prove more By Mr. Horsfall :It was true that the dues collected,
beneficial than the most liberal endowments that could were, all expended on the river, lights, buoys, tele-
be offered by Parliament, for national education. graphs, &c. He considered that it would be just, that
Mr. C. Lusursarost thought that apuoiritinen s to the all the ships frequenting Liverpool should be taxed for
civil service should be in the gift of the hrads of depart- buoying and lighting up the river to Runcorn.
ments. By the Chairman : He could not saw that there was a
Mr. W. EWART advocated the gradual adoption of the
general feeling at St. Helens, that Liverpool had no
competitive system, and regretted that the Chancellor of title to the dues.
Oaks, Bolton, said he had the Exchequer had not agreed to such a course, instead of
dividing against the noble lord's motion. Mr. Henry Ashworth, of the
been vice-president of the Manchester Chamber of Com-
Some further discussion took place in the course of -
which. merce tor twenty years. The subject of the Liverpool
Town Dues had first been discussed by the Chamber of
Lord H. CECIL i Commerce
spoke in opposition to the motion, and
Mr. Men in support of it. in 1836, and a petition was then presented to
Parliament praying for a redress of the grievances they
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that having devoted much
laboured under, and several other petitions had subse-
attention to the subject of making appointments to the ented the same subject. The witness
on
colonial service, he was of opinion that the selection quently been prs.
then read the various petitions and resolutions Which had
should be made from a limited number of candidates of
been agreed upon by the Manchester Chamber of Corn-
gentlemanly feeling and habits, and of a high education,
merce in reference to certain proceedings on the part of
and that these alone shall be sent to the examiners. There
the Liverpool authorities in conneJtion with the subject,
was now a vacancy in the colonial office, and the applies- and proceeded to say that he knew of no Act of Parliament
tions for it came, not from party friends, but from, educa- confirming the possession by Liverpool of the Town Dues.
lion establishments in England and Ireland. This system Witness cosidered that docks were national not local
he considered gave greater security for the efficiency of basins for shipping. The witness, who read another
the service than could be obtained by the adoption of a
system of open competition. The resolution before the petition from the anchester Chamber of Commerce
House pledged their opinion to a preference for competitive presented . the House of Commons. in. favour of the bill
examinations, and he asked the members to pause before recently before the House for abolishing local charges on
they expressed such an opinion. shipping.
Lord GODERICH having replied, In reply to the Chairman, the witness said, as to the
The House divided, when there appeared, effect of these dues on the trade and commerce of the
caarutinetley,
ofhe mraiwghteiontetnotnionaltohoaet withthere regardwere t 4,
oo4tho3e single
paid in Town
_ dues
were In 1776 the number of articles upon which .
31 per hale, amounted to £17,507
,a year
were levied by the Liverpool Corporation was 103, which
were enumerated on a brass plate at the Custom-house;
now it was understood the nnmber exceeded 600.
The Chairman . Can you give us any information as to
the advantage which a freeman derives from these dues ?
balesgle
For the motion . 108
Against it
Witness : Why, he has this advantage—he sells his
goods at the market price, pocketing the profit plus the
dues.
The Chairman : Then the freeman, as it were, stands in
place of the corporation; he receives the dues from his
customers instead of the corporation ?
Witness: Just so; but perhaps I cannot illustrate this
part better than by reading a letter which I have received
from a Liverpool merchant on the subject of this enquiry.
The Chairman: What is the writer's name?
Witness : I will hand the letter to the chairman, but I
decline to disclose it publicly.
Mr. Horsfall : That will not do.
Lord Hotham : Will the witness make himself respon-
sible for the statement in this letter?
matter, but in a few minutes strangers were again
admitted, when
d the letter which stated
The room was cleared for the committee to consider thisin
The Witness proceeded to reads
iumche
houses as Horsfall's, Gladstoneos ,
beB4c.ilt to the tax. The
had come when a limit ought
rt 0
ap gee
to
ts
ear b being freed
freemen of Liverpool saved 12a.,d00
yall t'
that the Town Dues were a gr,eat adevoadntt
red that par les who
from the Town Dues. He eons' e
ought to have some control over
paid Tolls and Does,
the expenditure. He had an impression that the docks
had been made at an extravagant expense, and stood in
a By Mr. Horsfall : He was not aware that when land
.}
, dby the dock trust from the corporation,
was purchased _ juthery.
The price was valued by a jury.
The Witness proceeded to observe that the Birkenhead
docks had been made much cheaper than those of Liver-
pool. He was not aware whether the Cheshire side was
more favourable to dock building than the Lancashire

Majority against the Government 2l
GRAND JURIES, IRELAND.
Sir D. NORREYS obtained leave to bring in a bill to
relieve grand juries from fiscal duties, and to place the
administration of local affairs in Ireland in elected councils.
THE MILITARY SCIENTIFIC SERVICE.
Capt. L. VERNON drew attention to 'he prospective
promotion and the establishments of the Scientific Corps,
with a view to maintain their efficiency 'in peace for the
purposes of war.
Lord PALMERSTON acknowledged 'the importance of
the Scientific Corps, and promised that due attention
would be paid to it.

—,Sir F. BARING moved for a Select Committee to enquire
into the receipt, issue, and audit of public monies in the
exchequer, the payoffice, and the audit department.
Mr. GLinsroisz suggested that as the question was full
of technicalities, and was of so complicated and diversified
a nature, the investigation should be entrusted to a small
commission of persons well informed on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER concurred in this
suggestion, but urged that the enquiry should not be
limited, but should be extended to all public offices. He
did not consider that there was any peculiar necessity at
the present time to institute- the enquiry, but if the
House generally approved of the motion, he would not
oppose it.
Mr. BOWYER concurred in the suggestions of Mr.
Gladstone. _ _

Mr. W. WILLIAMS, Mr.FIE." ELLICE, and Sir H.
WILLOUGHBY, supported the motion.
Atter some remarks from Mr. HENLEY and Lord
PALMERSTON, the motion was agreed to.

THE PEACE REJOICINGS.
Mr. GROGAN complained that the pyrotechnics in cele-
bration of the peaee were not extended to Ireland and
Scotland, and moved an address to her Majesty praying
that she would give orders to further this object.l
Lord PALMERSTON sal" the Governments would not
object to the motion, as they were of opinion that the
three principal cities of Great Britain should share in the
rejoicings.
The motion was agreed to.
The Drafts ou Bankers' Bill was read a third time and
passed .
the House adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock.

By Mr. Horsfall : He knew nothing of the relative merits
of the dock accommodation of Liverpool and Birkenhead.
He was not aware that there were 15 miles of docks in
Liverpool, and yet he had given an opinion upon the sub-,
ject without
,a personal knowledge ;of the fact, but ot

TOWN DUES. 1 course his opinion must be taken for just what it was.
worth.
1 By Mr. Gibson :It would he thought strange in Man
chester if a rate was demanded for the improvement of
LOCAL CHARGES ON SHIPPING Liverpool as well as Manchester, and yet that was done,
under the name of Town Dues.
COM NIITTEE. Mr. Horsfall : Are you not aware that the borough rates.
of Liverpool are greater than those of Manchester ?
Witness ; I don't know ; but, as I came here for info
Telt.) mation. I shall be glad to know from you that that is so.
offs, Tlitiliql, (A laugh.) The Witness then went on to say the.
reason why the people of Manchester objected to theses'
m \ine' at twe
- i dues was, simply because they obtained no return or.
advantage for them. If there were any equivalent given.
f Commerce in return, the opposition to the dues would cease.
r 1 ~,,
By Lord Hotham: He was not prepared to say how
.rq, Stoke Dock Trustees should be elected, that was, who shoui, t
If the firm
' ' have the right of election.
"he firm By:Mr. Vance: The value of a bale of cotton varied
'er raw from .£5 to £3O. A local committee in Manchester ha!t
les at been agitating. the neighbouring towns, and in correspond, t
:
to ence with the manufacturing towns of Yorkshire, an
'ay they had responded to the call made to them.
r The Witness : Have you done ? (A laugh.)
The Chairman : Yes, I think we have done with yott
now. (A laugh.)
The Committee then adjourned until Monday next*

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