The Express.
London, England, 1850-07-19 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 19, 1850.

dialed power of holdall a roots(mmmhahr of inquiry,
goateed', that the elevated jadielal ef the former
wes a very argument mama the ~hi thethisi-
meal parit=ribelagese. lallmatig la =this
diestalmon ellareeinthese, that as
tha Bonsai, tommobsiweghs thebreswillalfsensepasth: sthinunializirre
mute
ads leaL So then
flghl=1::11.81 dilea_Siolgont to the
▪ art maddiden Ms Ma Os lb• *pro
ef ft the
Pala immietlis et 1887, both
as widows, at the oplasa ellhe mileuellillos m to the Ills-
malty of such eammkelogis swat r mom* of IM delme et
these umlemelties to the mewese M Mole ef real laiwity.
He ..seeded by. menthe -Nthat whim atm to her
Metesty to Was a royal ethemholen tatiststry Ws Me state
of the manses and managetheat of rtlp ulleios et halls of
the two aaleersities of Oxford and Oadatoldge, oat being of
handatioo, tended to a violation a the laws and son-
fannies of her kingdom, and of the eights and liberties of
her lisiesth's mr_Vreto."
lir. H. DRUMMOND
_thought that the romposition and
duties of tad. oesselealme *mead a more Important queues
than the omenthelsa he He admitted that the universi-
ties had by . Melton Odom bolonie incapable of aerie' to
the public all the advantages which they might expect ; bet
the way to remedy this ova Ms either to open the existing
balls to or holies and dlsesalen, or to great public money to
erect new halls for those ohms; leaving the honours of the
universities open to all. Abe • diatribe against foreign
literature, and especially santhet the neologicel publications
of Prussia, the study of shish he thought ought to be for-
bidden at college, he expensed • hope that spot " mood
thoughts" this commission would be abandoned.
Mr. E. SUNBURY thought that there was a straw feel-
throughout the country against supposed abuses at the
reaiversittes, and that the report of such a commbsios as that
would operate advantageously towards setting the
proposed
mind right urn the subjoct. He emaroverted Mr.
Steam's argument of illegality, saying that, if valid, it would
utterly preclude an inquiry into any institution whatever;
and he added that the ignorance of the majority of fellows
of colleges as to the admicioratith of their property would
prevent their giving any information of the injurious nature
apprehended by lir. Stuart. He believed, however, that
the inquiry would be frankly and fairly met by the skiver-
sides, which he thought would be much heaeflted by the
commissloa.
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE admitted the motives of the
pianissimi were consistent with the profeedoas of the noble
the4(J. Resell) sad friendly to the universities He could not
believe that the noble lord would not be induced to re-
consider en opiates hastily iseseeteed, and, he believed, sou-
craved la an evil hour. In any case the appointment of each
• emambelos must be • groat ova in itself, even though
it might be an evil necessary in order to avert greater
'Tin. A aalvereity could not ;weeper amid strife. Peace
wee sop gooey to its prosperity. Controversy of whatever
nature it might be, was hostile to the attainment of be pur-
poses. (Hear, hear.) Tke proposed commission was opposed
to what was dear to the bean of England—namely, the
principle of local freedom, independence in local institutions.
That was • principle, no doubt, which might be attended
with evils, and which, is certain eases, might slacken the
progress of referee; but it was (me t° which the people of this
country owed mock of their c.peeity for self-government,
and one which the United States of America recognised
nest to ourselves. A eosamission, under any circumstances,
must secesearily tend to impale that local freedom. Them,
however, were general considerations, which ought to make
the house use before lending a favourable ear to any pro-
potation of the present kind. -Bat he must come to closer
quarters with this proposition. As regarded the universities,
he contended that there was no uses at all for it. He did
not deny that they might have • ease. The univenitiss had
of late introduced changes of very great extent Into their
course of study, and on the very day this blow was struck at
them (April 2) Oxford gave her teal assent to bar new sta-
tute. That was a great change which must draw after it other
great changes, and those ether changes must be not in the nal-
unity alone, but in the colleges. But those changes could not
take place all at once. The exigencies arising oat of the
change already made Gould not be met in a day. Some
time must be allowed to elapse before even the exigencies
Gould be discerned. and the colleges must be allowed a
reesoaable time to adapt themselves to the changes, for there
must be an increase of teen and a wider range of studies
(Hoar, beer.) It was stated that in Oxford, under the
pretest close and restrictive system they could not
always get competent men to undertake the actual
work of tuition in the university. A few figures would set
this salvation at rest. There were in the ihfferent colleges
and halls of Oxford 78 tutors in all, and these 78 tutors
had taken 8:3 first and second dames and there were
only six among the 78 who had not taken
high uaiversity honours. (Hear, hear) Now, could
any one pretend, after that, that the system of exclusions at
Osford had prevented the ablest men from undertaking the'
neeemary work ? (Hear, bear.) What were the other elle- '
gations ? Why, that the statutes of the cellegos prevented
the iotroduc!ion of the new studies. lie met that with •
denial. It wee • pure chimera, and had no fountlatieu
whatever. Then it was stated that the statute, of the col
leges were unalterable. He took it that it was very doubtful
in point of law whether unalterable statutes existed in any
college, or whether it was not in the power of the proper
parties to procure their alteration. But, at any rate,
before the unalterability of the statutes was pleaded, the
fact ought to be ascertained. They had no right to come
there and rate it as a matter of doubt, and then ask fur
the interference of the state la a case where it might pos
sibly be unnecessary. At any rate, the unalterable
statutes, if they ex sled, did not extend to more than tire or
six of the nilleges. (Hear, hear.) The question of the
local restraints upon the election of fellowships needed not
to be 'Amused by him at any length, buiuse the
house could not take into its own hands an un-
limited jurisdiction to alter or remove those local
restraints. It was a great mistake to suppose
that local restraints werelaltogether injurious, and in point of
feat those restraints were of a much lees stringent character
than was generally supposed. He contended that under no
circumstances had they a right to interfere is the manner
now proposed. To interfere with the universities was a
matter most serious, as all history proved. Bur, when they
interfered, they must have • case resting on very broad and
intelligible grounds, and then the only way by which
they could proceed was by applying to parliament
for powers to make the inquiry. The only way in which
the could interfere war by an set of parliament. He freely
told the noble lord that he did not oppose this commission
became* of any fears he entertained of the immediate conse-
quences to result to the universities. As a precedent that
might be acted upon in a very different spirit, he had • greet
dread of the commission; but his main objection was foun led
upon the unconstitutional character which appeared to him
to attach to the proceeding. (Hear.) What was the nature
of the inquiry proposed? It was a simple act of the
executive. The noble lord had intimated his unwillingness
to be advised by the Muse of Commons on the qucstios.
He announced his intention on the 23rd of April to lone the
commission, and he immediately intimated his opinion that,
the government having decided, there was no occasion for
any further discussion. Therefore, this interference, which
bad not been attempted since 16811, was a miller which the
noble lord had endeavoured to settle at his own table in his
private room. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) lie
(Mr. Gladstone) objected to that. The universities
were bodies of the highest rank, dignity, and
order in this kingdom, and what was done
with regard to them must be done with the most scrupulous
respect to their position and their pnjudices, and to the fond
and fervent affection which the community entertained
to yards them. (Cheers.) Had the noble lord con-
sidered that the issuing of such • commission as the one now
proposed exposed the authority of the crown to great dis-
paragement? In what terms was the commission to run ?
Was it to be • commission granting powers of any
kind ? Was it to do what the municipal com-
mission did—to require all persons to assist the
commissioners, to appear and to produce their docu-
ments ? The noble lord wanted to obtain a knowledge
of all the internal transactions of the colleges; but there
were oaths taken by the members of those foundations
binding them not to reveal the internal transactions of their
colleges. He (Mr. Gladstone) was afraid that many of them
would feel themselves bound by these oaths as against the
commission of the noble lord. He did not know that they
would feel themselves so hound amiut an act of parliament.
The Crown had no power to absolve or dispense. How,
then, did the noble lord mean to release the fellows from the
obligatloes of their oaths? Would he mourns a dispensing
power ? Would he my it was done at the time of James 11.,
for that was his last precedent ? (" Hear, hear," and a
laugh.) His (Mr. Gladstone's) apprehensions on this sub•
jeet were not chimerical ; they were historical, for the oath
was very stringent in both colleges. Every man at Oxford
who believed the commission to be injurious would be
booed in his conscience not to give evidence ; and, though
evidesee might be obtained from some who would pat
a different construction on the commission, yet the oath
would draw a dividing line between two paths. A die-
listable had boon drawn between the legality of an act
and its being unconstitutional. lie did not can
whether this act was in the abstract legal or not. This he
ventured to; submit—that, if it was not illegal, it was un-
constitutioael In such • sense and degree that the house
ought to eschew it as much as if it were absolutely ille-
gal. (Cheers.) The word " unconstitutional " was well
defined in England. The power of the crown in regard to
other bodies of the state was well understood. Where was
the ground in history and law in AL commission ? ( Hear.) '
Precedents had been talked of. Did they rely ten ancient
precedents? No man would tillage that the royal commis-
sions in the reigns of Mary and Elizabeth afforded any
ground for the present proceeding. But more modern pre-
cedents were pleaded. The noble lord mentioned three, and
the right hon. baronet,
the Home Secretary,ry. had been en-
deavouring to: add to the number. He (Mr. Gladstone)
alleged that there was not one of those precedents
that in the slightest degree applied to this case,
or that tame near to • Justification of this proceeding
The noble lord quoted the use of the Scotch universities..
There had been an inquiry there by royal commission ; but
what had that to do with the present matter? That was an
inquiry in the itemise of the visitatorial power. He would
assume its legality, and ask what was the composition of that
coansimioa ? The heads of several of the universities un-
seated to it—the great bulk of the judges recog.
aimed it. That oomminion in itself bore no resem-
blance to the commission of the noble lord. It
wee the a, fishing, roving commission depending on
eleemosynary evidences. It was • commission armed with
fall powers; it was moreover a legislative commission, to
frame codes and statutes for the government of the scotch
universities; and therefore it we. very different in composi-
tion, instruction and powers from the commission
waswhihohe
now proposed. (Hear.) Again, the noble lord
quoted the commissioncommissionof inquiry into the chin. ;but
must have been driven hard when he made that quotation.
That was an inquiry grounded upon an act of parliament,
gad he asked for an act of parbament In this ease. The
how would then Mow what LI wee proposed to japan

late,
wl•
a.thowarZhilmlle Mom" ifteoulfilin'etathleasad " lase
th*
sad see that the *miry wee sillsetnel he he wpm. Ti N
the prosedent of the noble lad was sot only _lesslevest: ft
was eves hidiewous. ter that sommbeitta mmisledi all eases
bearish as the of the unhook's...4 eneloded the
charity that foal s Wear. (Thaw ease Ike pre.
cadent of the esslaisetleal r 1811. Is the
Yes of that essamhoisa fe wee 511... ally admitted that
there were rest Ames' le be Aisle* by the maturity of
the state. Dirwease he lestessee weld est be rearranged I
except by the as ght*/ el the elate; and, that beteg so, he
apprehended that the laillladea of that oomaisesee was in-
tended as a stoked homage and tribal* of
respect to is dam& Hat woo that inquiry foxed
by the stale spa the Aura P (Hear, boar.)
There the elm* was a seassatfag party. He was dis-
reed le be se Mberel that If it mall Ds sheen that tie
(harsh was a emmrsaing party to tie peepseed fa, be
would admit eat seelssiestisal soniehelsa fitaisa a
fair precedent. The saivineities, however, new asa sea-
sooting, but reside& parties, and therefore the church
was a resistiag party to the propoesd inquiry. (Hier,
hear) There was but one other modem 'remount
quoted to which it was aseemary for him to allude,
and that was the ease of loluiring into municipal corpora
times. Ho should have theaglit it bad policy to support
Gee bad cease, by referent to another. In that case there
was a universal Widths{ dose municipal corporations, es a
wholee bad bow representative bodies, and that by the
lapse either they bed eased to be so. Without going late
an examinant of the rights sad wrongs of that gantlets,
it was enough to gay that then was oa the
tae, of it a great abuse of trait, and a
departure from the original intention and object.
that at ones and of course established a principle widely
different from the colleges, with respect to which everyboi
admitted that, upon the whole, and to the best of th
ability, they were trying to de their duty sad fulfilling t
object for which they were instituted. (Hear, hear.) He
must say, therefore, that there was not one of those prece-
dents worth a single straw. He next would ask what grougd
was there in history, or law, for the exercise of this
prerogative? It was absolutely useemary for those who
advoceted it at least to show that ouch a power
as they were about to exercise bad been ad-
mitted in practice. But he submitted that they had to-
tally failed to show the exercise of • power in any degree
analogous to that now proposed. What was to be
the limit ? There was not even a ray of doctrine laid
down to justify this iaquiry respecting the college. He
should like latch to be told into what might the grown
inquire, and into what might it not. Fcr two long
centuries this country was mimed la • struggle for
eonstitutional liberty. At the beginning the Crown could do
anything, at the end its power was defined. He 'eked them
upon what principle scold it inquire into those colleges and
do nothing else ? The hon. member for Maidstone, who
sat behind him, had taken part the formation of • royal
college, and he wi.hod to know if the noble lord could say
that—he having heard divers reports about there not being
enough of men maployed there in tuition—he must tend down
commissioners to sosertain the fact ? He should be glad to
know if the doctrine could reach St. Augnstine's or not.
If not, then he could not perceive how it reached the uni-
versities. Oxford and Cambridge wore not the only
taiversidite. There was London. And although Oxford
and Cambridge wars not private corporations, they had
close and missive relation with bodies existing under cor-
porations by act of parliament. There wu, for instance,
precisely the same relation between Christ Church and
Cambridge as then was between the London Uni-
venity and the colleges affiliated to it. The
cases corresponded precisely. No one could be a
member of the London University without toting
• member of one of the colleges ciliated to it. And
so also with Oxford. Then did their power extend to an in-
quiry into the colleges affiliated to the University of London :
They were here dealing not only with clergymen of the
established church, but also with Wnleyans and indepen-
and those who had been described as Christians un- '
attached; also with the Roman catholic, of Ow >t,
and with private colleges founded by gentlemen
of other denominations, and he wished to know if they
claimed the right of inquiring publicly into these colleges ?
If their power did not extend to St. Augustine's and Oscot,
or the London University, then he wished to know upon
what principle they secluded them ? If it did extend to the
college of Canterbury and the rest, then the House of
Commons mast not allow those undefined doctrines of prc-
rogative
to prevail. It was downright nonsense to say that
because this was a mere inquiry therefore it was to be
done. baloney might involve consequences the most pain
ful and the most injurious to fame, character, and reputation '
—nay, to property, privilege, and substance. It they meant
to say that their commission was to be passive, and only to
receive evidence, he wished to knew might it not he ex-
tended to the private concerns of any ono amongst them ?
Was it to be a commission acting on the authority from which
it proceeded, or was it only a commission to take voluntary
evidence of the private affairs of the noble lord, or any one
else in that house ? If it were to be a private commission,
let it not proceed (rem the crown; if it were to proceed on
authority, let them know whence they derived th it authority,
and what was its nature and extent. (Hear, hear.) He
wished hon. members to separate from their minds
the immediate object of the noble lord, and the propriety of
the means by which he designed to attain that object. He
asked them calmly to examine into the dangers that attended
all nadeterunined and undefined commissions on the part of
the crown, to compare them wi h the nature of the object
in view, and then to say whether it would not be far wiser
to join with him (Mr. Gladstone) to waive the execution of
their intention, and to wait for the lights of experience
to inform them if the colleges had done their
duty, as it was admitted by the noble lord that
the universities bad, and if they had failed in doing
so, then, but not till then, to ask for full powers, to insist on
a commission of inquiry which would bring the whole con
before them, and supply them with all the materials and evi-
dence aeon which to base and justify their legislation. He
must say that in his opinion the breath of freedom
and habits of self-government were essential to the
welfare of these institutions. Ile would even go
so for as to say that a bad system of the manage-
ment of property, if it was bound up with habits
that had prevailed for so many centuries, was
better, whoa tikes with all its incidents, than
the mat per( ct system they could procure by parlia-
mentary interference. A knowledge of science was • small
part of the education conferred by those univenities. Taking
their case as • eh de, he admitted that they had done b ss
than they might have done. But in saying that, he only
Omitted what might be said of every human institution.
They might r? quire, as they pleased, that every professor-
ship should be tilled with men of the highest attainments.
But they never could secure tome moral and social benetim,
which they all desired, under a system of state coercion,
or under any system that did not give perfect freed mm.
If • :taunter, who of necessity was the creature of a politi-
cal majority at • given moment, was to institute en in-
quiry into the motives of these bequests, he thought every
one inu,t feel that that was a great discouragement to elee-
mosynary bequests. Did they think it wise to give that
discouragement? There had been times when it was
wise to pies statutes of monsoon'', to prevent all
the land getting into the hands of the church ; hut
that was nut so uow. They were now a nation developing
unexampled energies in the pursuits of trade and of mite-
rid wealth. Did not they think it was important—did
not they Mink it was good policy—did not they think it was
• comprehensive end far sighted policy to pursue a generous
and liberal policy towards those who might be dispersed
to rescue some portion of that wealth from that which
was more material, and to devote it to that which was
intellectual t What were then foundations ? They were of
the best and noblest almost that we could conceise. Hot
take them at the average, take them at the worst—were
they otherwise than beneficial to the country ? Did not
they rely on them in • very great degree—amid the slick
of ruder elements—to maintain and represent the nobler
purAuite of the nation ? Was not religion, was not
civelisition, was not real learning—the real education
and development of men—dependent in a gerat
degree on benefactions of that kind ? It was
their 'happiness to have had them hanged down
from their forefathers; they had withstood the temptation
of delivering them up to the hand ef the destroyer. And
not only should they devote this wealth to the higher pur-
poses; they should not only do it as regarded civilisation, but
they should do it as belonging to a nation who wished that
civilisation should not be the exclusive property of the
higher classes, but that it should find its way down
to the lower classes. For this was emphatically
true, that these foundations were at this mo- '
ment, and had ever been the patrimony of the
poor. If they looked to the history of the reformed church
of England, they would find that an immense proportion of
these learned men had come from the humbler classes.
If their universities had a fault, it was tint they
were too math the universities of the higher clause.
They wanted tofu a larger number of the lower classes
then, which they might encourage, for the noble lord had
large means In his heads, by judiosus communication with
the universities. la the course be was now punning, he
(Mr. Gladstone) feared he had no prospect, because his in-
terference as now attempted by him would, on principle, be
resisted. He (Mr. Gladstone) said the universities had
not deserved that at their hands. On the whole,
whatever this might say against them, the uni
varsities had borne a great and conspicuous part
in the history of England ; end no man would
understand the history of England without knowing the
history of the universities. The hon. gentleman the member
fur Buckinghamshire had refund to them in his works as
• school of manners and of life. The universities were •
larger school, and thin was not a feature in our national
character, there was not a point in the character which had
made England great among the nations of the world,
which was not strongly end plainly traceable to the in-
stitution of the univenities ; for during hundreds
of years they had been intimately associated with
everything that was connected with the history of the
country. 11. did not think that even now they had fallen
under the requirements of the age. At least he thought
that, under a competition which he rejoiced to use increas-
ing, they would do their but to answer the demand which
the country was making on them. lie thought of all places
that ought to complain of the university, the House of
ast.
uC Commons
be
mathematical
athat with
it ireent regard
trest o,nWoc scientific ita beateht enatvti etlrcc
Oxfordus u
ba mightCambridge
being go ,
In aidht however "
awe oehtv hgrheiciintrt
tinmhi‘egichhletaisica by Germany, this at least was true, that the uni-
unities had done their duty as schools for their statesmen.
At no period Could they find that in that assembly its great
men had not been educated in the universities. Nu doubt
they had brilliant exception', as In the prime
minister of the present day. A monopoly they
did not wish to see, but he could not refint on
the distinguished men who sat on the ministerial aide of
the house and on the treasury bench without feeling that
the adrosates of the valressities had coo reason to blush—at

isear in Hems of Commons. And U that were so, sash
mile in Ite say it when he looked on his own (the oppo-
sides) aids if the house, and whey he recollected that the
met diseinguished ef Oxford's eau was likewise the man
who hmi Ms rampaged in that Mese es the mat da-
ft/plied mil mete prranfasarsy the man of the British
lipase of Oomming. fik Hoban Peal. And often as they
weal bays simenisa N hats% Lie loss, he for one felt that it
win deeply to be hinented new, wham, he was persuaded,
versi ty , at o
peoleatlia ddeld Muhl bent been thrown over the uni-
ne time, he was the repusentative, and
for Milli, even after palliest circumataness had dissolved 'he
comedon, he eantimed tithe last to cherish a warm affec-
tion. He (sr. Gladstone) freely acquitted the noels lord of
any intention of committing Wary upon the universities. He
feared moonbeam that his acts must inflict such injury.
Not denying the right of parliament to interfere when
en adequate ease was shown, he did protest Realest this un-
ted stretch of power. He protested against it as
racegtelis ro to the liberty of she subject, and against the
Maur of the crown, and he protested against it as being
dangerous Is Its after smasequaces to the adversities of
Rigialid."l4llit" their property. for it was not that they
were thinking of but in respect to these libertieserhieh were
absolutely essential to their health and well heir's. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he felt very considerable diffi-
culty in arguing the question that a commission do
issue on the part of the crown to inquire into
time unharaitles; for if, es upon the former occasion,
they said but little on any of the defeats of these universities,
and merely confined themselves to a statement of improve.
stints yet to be made—that these improvements might be
facilitated by inquiry, and that even legislative aid might be
neeemary for the peeping—they were then met by the right
hon. gentleman who had jut sat down with a statement
that there was hardly a ease for • commission,
sad that there ought to be none but the gravest
reasons to Indies the MIMI to issue a ;oommission.
But if he should point out mere in detail the defects that at
present existed, and the improvements that might be made,
then they ebbeld be met by the latter part of the right hoe.
gentieman's speech, in which he denounced the Moisten
of the crown, as if they were not going te aid and assist and
improve, but utterly to subvert these institutions, and to
deprive the universities of their existence. The right hon.
gentleman in the latter part of his speech went to an
mem, in protesting against their (the government's) in-
tentions, which was hardly required by anything he had
heard from any minister of the crown. They might readily
admit that these universities had been most useful ; that
the endowments were:most properly applied ; that the educa-
tion of statesmen had been promoted; that the general
learning of the country had been advanced by these Matta
Mee ; and when they had made these admissions they were
not a bit nearer the right hon. gentleman's conclusion, that
there ought to be no further inquiry on the
subject. The right hon. gentleman, going beyond—
he thought far beyond, the temperate speech of the hon. and
learned gentleman who opened this debate would have them
think that there could sot be on the part of the crown any
inquiry hereafter, except into cases of great grayity, about
which inquiry might be absolutely necessary and inevitable.
Now, to admit such a ceneluion would be to admit that
from 1816 to the present time they had been going in en-
tirely a wrong course; that various ministers of the crown
had abused its powers, and had interfered with the laws and
with the liberty of the subject. The tight hon. gentleman,
in an early part of his speech, told them that the colleges at
Oxford among their statutes bad foundations at • time when
they opinions of Wickliffe were gaining ground, thou
opinions which afterwards led to the reformation ; and he
said that the founders of these colleges inserted in their
statutes most strict and severe rules against any interference,
from which the right hon. gentleman drew the moral that
we ought to carefully guard against ill considered
scheme, of reform. Why he was hardly prepared
to admit with the right hon. gentleman that
the opinions of Wickliffe and the beginning of the
reformation were ill-considered schemes of reform.
(Hear, hear.) He was not prepared te admit that the
reformation at the time of Henry the Eighth and of Eliza-
beth was merely the ill-considered scheme of reform of the
innovators of that day. But he did see in those severe and
strict statutes another reason for interference, namely, that
those who in those times made those severe and strict
statutes made a greet mistske' in the ity and the
strictness with which they fenced the foundations that they
were then making ; because by that very strictness,
by that attempt to prevent all claim, they did but
attempt to make the claim more entire and subversive than
it would otherwise have bees. Among the foundations
which the right hon. gentleman said ought not to be inter-
fered with were many of those foundations in which they
made provision for the due performance of the Roman
catholic worship, and if any one had the right to claim that
thou foundations should not be interfered with it was
the Roman cathofics, and not them. (Hear, hear.) But
there were parallel cues with which the right
hon. gentleman endeavoured with great inge-
nuity, but as he (Lord John Russell) thought with
labour in vain to contend. The right hon. gentleman could
not deny that there had been inquiries first on the basis of
Irish education, inquiries into the universities of Scotland, a
royal commission to inquire into the state of the Irish chur
under the Duke of Wellington's government, a commission
to inquire into ecclesiastical claims in 1832, an inquiry into
municipal corporations in 1834 and 1831, an inquiry lestly ,
into the state of several bishoprics of England and Wain, and
which was likewise an inquiry into the state of cathedral
chapters. Why, the right hon. gentleman could not pretend
I that none of these cases were applicable. He could only
meet them by saying, and it was an unfounded assumption
both by him and the hon. member for Newark, that what
government in fact proposed was not a commission of in-
quiry, but a commission in the nature of inquiry and of re-
medy, which was not only to ascertain facts, but to deal with
the evil which they found, and to carry into effect the men
sores which they proposed. Now, he (Lord J. 'Lentil) ad-
mitted at Collet that such an inquiry into the universities of
Eagland would not only be unadvisable, but illegal. But
it was by confusing the two, and by always coupling
with the inquiry, that they proposed, terms
that were not applicable to it, that the right
honourable gentleman endeavoured te make out his case.
Let them take any of these cuts—the inquiry into muni-
nip it corporations, for instance. The right hen. gentleman
said that was not a case in point; but the inquiry was
whether these corporaeiJns had answered their purpose, and
whether their constitution might not be restored or im-
proved. It did not appear to him that that ground could
have been very strictly adhered ta. Many of these corpora-
tions were no other, with respect to laws and regulations,
than they had been at the time of their foune.ation. And it
should be observed, with regard to the universities, what the
right hon. gentleman seemed to have altogether
omitted, that they were net private foundations
of establishments—(bear, hear)—but that the well-
being of the country depended in • great de-
grog on the manner in which they wets conducted—that
they bad certain authorities and privileges with regard to
th, church, law, and medicine, which made it as much the
interest of the nation to see that they were properly con-
ducted, as it was to know that the municipal corporations
arswer.d the purpose of their institution. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman said the church was a consenting
party to the inquiry into the episcopal and cathedral reed
nues. N i doubt some of the bishops and dignitaries were
so; but if the cathedral chapters had been asked whether
they wished for an inquiry as to how their revenues might be
applied fur the benefit of the church, and in a very dol. rent
manner to what they had considered advisable, instead of
being consenting parties there would have been at
least as much dissent among them as had lately
been manifested by the universities. These two
eases alone furnished sufficient precedent for this
purpose, and they came in the train of a long series of
precedents of acts of the crown in conformity with the spirit
of the times; by which, while endeavouring to p all
that was good in our institutions, it had been sought to steer-
tain of what improvements they were capable. (Hear, hear.)
If they listened to the right hon. gentleman they would stop
short in that career, and say that henceforth there should be
no inquiry for the sake of improvement, that not • single
commission should be issued till some grosscase of abuse or

mismangement MAL He enurely differed from that view.
Let them make en inquiry when triere were some defects to
be cured, some improvements to be effected—let them give
the utmost posaible scope to all measures of repair
and renovation, and then they would not have to
make inquiry into cases of gross abase and mis-
management. (Hear, hear.) It was much better
t s make such alterati.:ns and improvements as might prevent
gross abmcs' man to refuse inquiry until it was forced upon
them by those abuses. (Hear, hear.) Against the pro-
posed inquiry, the light hon. gentleman urged the objec:ions
by the college authorities to interference with their statutes.
Those objections were not very applicable to •commisaion of
inquiry; if applicable at all, they were so to almost all in-
quiries that had been made. He would instance one of the
last inquiries made by a commission—that into the law and
practice of the occupation of land in Ireland. No one would
say that there was any right or authority in the crown to
direct what rent should be paid, what tenant•right should be
preserved, and how the land should be cultivated ; yet the
commission had gone into all these questions, and the two
volumes, which were merely a digest of their inquiries,
contained particulars of transactions between landlord
and tenant, which were surely as sacred as the conduct of
any public body in the kingdom entrusted with the education
of the youth of the kinrom. (Hear, hear.) But the right
hon. gentleman confounded two things—an inquiry for the
sake of obtaining facts, and an inquiry for the purpose of
adopting measures of remedy and alteration. He had
spoken much of the liberty of the subject, and the hon. sod
learned gentleman (Mr. Stuart) said the proposed constitu-
tion tended to a violation of the law and constitution, and of
the rights and liberties of the subject. No such interference
was at all involved in this question. It was all very well to
say the measure had a tendency to a violation of the law. hut
the hon. and learned gentleman knew the law a great deal
too well to say that it was a violation of it. He might just
as well say that there was a tendency in any-
thing legal to what was illegal. A cammiseon
of inquiry was perfectly legal ; a commission to
take away men's property was illegal; but there was a
broad distinction between the two. The government pro-
posed to make lush inquiries as were made with respect to
municipal corporations and ecclesiastical bodies; and if
alterations were found necessary, it would then be considered
what was the legal authority by whi such alterations
could be made. The hon. and I d gentlemen (Mr.
Stuart) had admitti d that improvements might be made, and
were to be desired, and concurred in his (Lord J. Russell's)
wish that a greater portion of the people could partake of
the beaefits of a university education at Oxford or Cam-
bridge. If that were the ease, why should the hon. and
learned gentleman insist on the adoption of certain measures
having that object in view, and yet resist an inquiry in the
first plain as to what changes were required W secure thatch.
Prot, and how they could best be effected. • (Rear, hear.)
To* hon. sad learned gentleman did not say the
universities had reached that state of absolute* perfection
that no alteration mild be made; he even contemplated

that the intertwines of the crown might he
certain cues, and was rather disposed to rehako:"...'2
ment for not adopting ieterfersues in foresees,' 'h.;
-„..,'s
he would not allow them to take the prelinn"aw" ...
iwhich they might simertale how thou channeW -'
best effected. He agreed with the go --, tow
b
bat would not apse as to teets,., " f.l) attaining it. No doubt the universities were-;;.,*". bodies; they were engaged in the adoptio in—. 4. '
=tins la their Lima of study ; but he w....n..,•-,LIPn.
eight be made more useful, and that eff.","kLthell
be extended to a far greater perdue of the "`"fill
la one respect, that of expense, he dos! ,',.." Weill,
the tight honourable Member for she tie' ff.. ;:15'
Oxford had completely answered the "-
"7 Peet
charge, that a great deal of nerlitte g 0.... connected with education at that university 14-,-, He bad never heard any one acnected with ta,..„--,.'
and having the charge of education deny t1ig...,4"."
case; on the contrary, they referred totheu e. t ~,
to enforce regulations which they thought ncultlbe-ut
they complained of the laxity or induleeece e• pi, ms
said that no college alterations which the %ie.'
would be sufficient to remedy the evil.
whom he bad consulted had never is the 1ee.n..1 tea,,
i
that there was an excess of expense by lt,, n; . -
universities, which was hurtful to diatip4:, ',,-;,°,
(Hear,
due Connie of study, and was exceedingly ,!..jr.-41
those young nun whose parents could au et,: to 0
debts they incurred. (Hear, hear.) if this weft j..j'. connected with the universal,' affirmia ie.; ~:,
uosb:e to cartel the evil, was it not worth whet tea*.
should be an inquiry, to see if they coull go,
~ ;;; '
hinds of the authorities, and enable them itt4:
treater cheek upon flan.* cap nue ? Mess, et., , the kind of education, he had not yet seen the re. which those studies which of late years hew j
1, "
into the course, both at Oxford and C. t.,''
to be made to smalgainate with the °tn.; ;,:j"• of Use university, and how the lectures • ;.ro'.ett;
were well able to give instructions in those Sr,; ct,,,:,f
were to be attended, together with the teen 4 f.„.
scribed. The right bon. gentleman lid tr... r• :,.:'
proposal would be w en in a few years; ,....4,,, ;
doubt that many persons connected With t e u: iv,
would be able to point out, before a rign., ~,,, ~,
i,
hog improvements which they theraraes sr.. ot
~1„
carry into effect could be made, su u in ft;
thous new improvements with the lermer couf study. His wish was that there iii•;:te:iors
continue to &wish, that whets",. tit e dated of studies hitherto little fo:.•mtd re-el!..',e t combine with all those studies, the rtguld tz,l to.
pursuit of which had distinguished thou tat, ..., j
times, and in l.ter times, and in that time, ...Q b.
greatest ornaments of that house and of ...... -.v ~,
(Hear, hear.) lie believed that this might n.
~f t.
cline; but if the house would not perm,: •ne ~,
order an inquiry into those matters, they w,,,... ,;,,
k.ep back the universities in that coarse of ire n.
which they themselves were wiling to odor.. . it t,
He could nut but see that all the institiri,n. o; t...
had of late years been undergoing a change ; --;.. ,
instance, within the last 20 year", had not be. !:
but had been strengthened by the changes t•,.; •
made; and this had been effected, not by 1 • -
change, hut by adopting those reform. ~fistedd to the time, and cal.ulate.l ... 4,
church mere useful to the great body of tie
~.
So it should be with all our institution,
So it should be with our unleersities. We ••••, . ;
like Chas foolish innovator who destroyed tt....
they were unable to improve ; but, seeing •t.
vantages which existed, seeing the vast Cr. : 4.1.
purpose of learning which hail been left •-•
universal(' by our ancestors, we thou.; (-...
make them conducive in the highest &gr.: •
motion of religion, morality, and snun.l .c.rn
strengthening them in every advantage teat c ....
them, rev!, them more worthy of a.l the ...t
they had beret .fore enjoyed.
Mr. LAW reiterated the charge that th, •
would be un-onstitutional, and declared, se .. •
all the evidence taken under it would he t• 4.
and that soy man giving such evidence ie., ,I
liable for every word he might utter. Ile c ~ .
unfortunat pad ion in which the univeri ie., an
Albert (as Chancellor of Cambridge), woul.: • • ;
conduct of Lord J. Russell in is-sucg a c "nen ••,
both those institutions were heartLy and CA
opposed.
Sir R. INGLIS paid a high compliment t,
and eloquence of Mr. Gladttone's speech, t•
Lord John Russell bad done in justice. lie .:
crown bad any right to issue the coerce creole
toted by government. He gave his coreiel se;
Stuart's amendment.
After some words of explanation by Mr. Ii '.' ,'....
complained of having been misunderst., el, en .tr• ...
by Sir R. H. Inglis,
Mr. G. HAMILTON made a short sta:( tt• n: :1 c.:
Lion of some details Mr. R. Palmer had give,:..: niece
Dublin University.
.
Mr. HEYWOOD replied. He said ill:: •xi '• c-
,equedin:alenfWotuntoolwdmseyar,
citsinwit.thhelrrezgaruel?tfetEhoklecti:
uthledisttieshbeetisch.;:.
i.:., ‘ • .
....,
in tut, Wes made at different periods ; and h• - .•.. -c
the inquiry which be proposed would, if area: .t. '• ,•
tug beneficial to the country.
Mr. STUART said that as Sir G. Geer had e•:•.:...!..,
his motion for the adjournment of the debate, he at ..
repay ,that courtesy if he did not now withdraw his a:,
ment.
The amendment was then withdrawn.
For the adjournment 1:
I
amendment,
theillSTdhrr
eeP °Gt
fi t.
t es
.el 'ti
beIGREY
llthir adjournedsaididd eit.irdhe udteocl giveht
ith:th. de before
e} I ty hoe.t
ea; would
moonswithdrawnln nowed,
.:
Against it
OATH OF ABJURAtION (JE st S'

: thcct

In aiiitrO7tohir.lllc,
Lml J RUSSELL said that he would t
'onday next.
COURT OF CHANCERY (COUNTY PALA
LANCASTER. BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
ATTORNEYS' CERTIFICATE BIL
Oa the motion that the house go into coin
bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCISE: ' '
move that the committal of this b..: he I is%
three months. (Cries of f• Oh, oh," and I
r
d The
ohl hlshl'Oolo s eurßstTebt hte going
ho° amendment
naiiietythneonid:c:teindmi—:;:codttifulatia,h,:;.:et.he
l.
nentlemely feunnistishoh.d7teinathageaihnsopet thtte,stth:
in their bills immesliately, when he l o t• :
chaos would occur in the house tat. • --
country. ( L aughter.)
Clauses 1 to 4 were agreed to.
Oa clause 5, which prop^sed the ; ley ••: 1•• r
tration fee to the Incorporated Lea s
of every attorney, being put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EVld'. 1:,1
that 101. be struck out and Is. ud. Imre 1.
After some discussion, in which Sir F. Theater. <r .1.
Willoughby, the Attorney-Oenersl, and other 0,••• oh" •3
took part,
The committee divided, when there sprezred—
For the amendment of the Chencil:or of
the Exchequer
Against
Mr. S. WORTLEY then moved that the lee is roo‘l
to Se. instead cf is.
The ATTORNEY•tiENERAL or.osea the antra !men:.
He said that one of the great ohjeete of the Lig 7
in this hill was to create a semi.: for themselves.
Mr. TURNER said that the Low Society had chat:a
itselt with the duty of prosecuting all member' for ha.: con-
duct. and that threw upon the society a very heavy tepee Al
for inquiries and prawn:ions. Ile supported the amend-
ment of Mr. Wer'llf.
Lord it. GROSVENOR said he wu in correspon.fence
wetwoithameetedantattoorntbleysesaitneoondroweyiestvek rYan esixdtreao. rdTmaryhe Atint7t e'nY:htiuseaiementral
Sir F. THESIGER denied that this was a j is on the
part of the Ltw Sxtety to secure a revenue to thctnseleet.
Illtih'whiseaLrwett
uoucgtuisestiitioty:onifwrtas",:rtarwahutertteyherw.aihtitzigeilbttohoues‘eal
hestitshehmeidttit,oo,T2.4o:?..,:.;.,i,mscre.
the duty.
The committee divided.
For Mr Wortley's amendment c
•
Against
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCLIE4I. :Era
that the Chairmen rep uft progress.
Mr. S. WORTLEY thought this course of pr:cx,ling
inconsietent with the dignity of the nous%
Mr. STAFFORD protests 1 spinet the conduct
government in endeavouring to defeat the bill hy 4.411
wind, after they had been defeated three times to a •or
standup fight.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that when there WAS an
to the crown there was only one division taken, '...t
ease of a ill i was quite cometent to the goitein.•
take • divhisiont on every stags p
if they were oppeied
principle of the hill.
Lord It GROSVENOR appealed to the govcritine•::
to persist in their opposition, seeing that so also
supporters of the bill had left the house wi Mite' ,t'
pectation of the present question being
Mr. BASS said there were circumstances connee•ed•-h
this bill which justified a somewhat unusual cepa.; .
.1;
was notorious that many memben had voted for it
not wish that it should piss. (Name.)
Mr. WALI'OLE appealed to the government to 1.1.**
the hill to par through committee, and to tako s .1s.:1 IC
• 'on on the third reading.
Mr. V. SMITH hoped that the hen. member ter .4: s-
hoed would persist in his motion.
Mr. 1113 VT vindicated the course he had taken
Mr. I'LL, MI`TRE designated the motion as t 0.026
and dishonourable" on the part of its promoters.
The committee divided on the question that the chairman
do leave the chair.
Fofthe motion
Against it
The motion was consequently lust. sJ
The remaining clauses of the bill were then ague i -o .
the house resumed.
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill pared through committee Fr, /OrMa.
MILITIA I'AY DILL.
This bill puled through committee.