The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1856-10-02 00:00:00

NORTHERN TIMES.--LIVERPOOL, THURSDAY.

than in any of the others. He had only to add that, in
the opinion of the surveyor, taking yard for yard, accom-
modation against accommodation, that design could be
carried out as cheaply as any which had been laid before
the committee. Under these circumstances, he begged
leave to move that the recommendation of the committee
be confirmed, and that the prize of one hundred and
fifty guineas be awarded to the prize marked Con
Amore, and one hundred guineas to that marked
" Alma." This recommendation of course was con-
ditional, if the design could be carried out within the means
of the committee. They asked for nothing more than that,
and asked the council now, simply, to award the prize under the
terms of the advertisement which had been issued.
Mr. Woodruff seconded the motion.

that the building could not be erected for that amount. He
was sure the modesty which Mr. Holine had displayed ou that
occasion would show other gentlemen the necessity of being
diffident in their own minds. (Hear, hear.) The council had
been told that it would be unjust to the other competitors if
they awarded the pr ze to that plan, provided it could not be
erected for the amount specified. The committee, however,
proposed to guard against any such error, by making only a
conditional decision. There was another reason why the
committee need not fear any dissatisfaction on the part of
competitors, as the plan which ha•t been pursued in the
selection of the design, which had some novelty in it so far as
Liverpool was concerned, secured them the co-operation and
assistance of the competitors themselves. The report had told
them that the competitors, who must have studied most deeply
(he plans and elevations which could combine beauty of
appearance with the best arrangements, and who were therefore
the gentlemen best able to give an opinion, had pronounced
that, taking the beauty of the building, its internal
arrangements, and all other circumstances into account,
the Con Amore design presented more advantages.
and complied more closely with the condition, than
any other of the plans. • The plan which the committee
had adopted in that instance would probably be followed out
with great advantage in other works relating to the fine arts.
(Hear, hear.) The great difficulty and the great drawback to
artists in sending in designs to be submitted to public competi-
tion, was that they had no confidence in the tribunal which
had to decide on the merits of the works. The library
committee did not labour under that great disadvantage,
because they had at their hand a gentleman who was himself
an architect, and well qualified to assist and guide their
decisions. He believed that plan would be very generally
followed out when works of beauty and the fine arts were to be
submitted for decision. Mr. Earle had referred to an cccasion
of somewhat a similar kind in connection with the SAcct

committee

Mr Earle : I have had a good deal to do with this sort of thing,
the awarding of prizes on two or three different occasions, as
you, Mr. Mayor, are very well aware. You will recollect
that at the time St. George's-hall was advertised for by a private
company, we were all very much struck with Mr. Elmes's
design for the single building—not as it is at present. We
thought it so very handsome, that it could not be executed for
the money and 1 think it was you, sir, who, at the request of
the comruitteo, went up to London, and had an interview with
him. You were surprised at the talent of so young a man,
and the practical intelligence he displayer, and you came down
quite satisfied that the work could be executed for the money.
We, therefore, awarded the prize, and, I think, very properly.
Upon another occasion I sat upon as had a committee as ever I
had the honour of sitting upon, if I may call it an honour
—(laughter—the precious committee respecting the industrial
schools, that infamous, abominable, rascally building which has
been erected at an expense, I believe, of £20,000 to
.C 25,000 to the parish. (Hear and laughter.) At that time
there were mottoes sent in, just as upon the present occasion_
We were bound not to canvass, or any thing of that sort ; hut,
instead of that rule being adhered to, a regular canvass was
carried forward, and the prize was awarded to the very
worst, or, at all events, about one of the very worst
of the designs. I think you, Mr. Mayor, had a
hand in assisting us about it —(laughter)—in getting
rid of it, gentlemen, not in carrying it out. You and
I know him too w.. 11 to think that ho would do
anything of the kind—he enabled us to get rid of it. The
design which he adopted, was a desig❑ not exactly as it is now
built. The gentleman who gave you the plans for it, the very
moment that his plans were 'chosen, struck out the greatest
part of the ornamental portions of the building, reducing it by
some thousands of pounds. I believe lie had given us a fine
design to attract the eye, and a worse arranged building than
finally resulted I believe never existed. Now, I shall not go
into the question of the proptiety of the decision as to the
best of the designs. I dare say, Mr. Picton being an architect
himself, and the other gentleman having _a:incurred, that it is the
best of the designs. But what I want to know is, whether
that decision, under the circumstance, is fair to the other com-
petitors ? (Hear, hear.) I want to know what the cost of
the building would be ? (Hear, hear.) If lam told that
that work can be executed for £20,000, I can only say that I
do not believe Mr. Picton himself would execute it for such a
sum. (Hear, hear.) Have any measures been taken to
ascertain what the probable cost of such a work would be?
It may be that the other competitors have purposely kept their
estimates much lower. They may not have given us so good
a design, because, perhaps, they were afraid of exceeding the
sum of £20,000. (Hear, hear.) Now, if you allow some
gentlemen to figure away and give you splendid designs which
would cost £30,000 or £40,000 (and I should think the cost
of this design would be nearer to £30,000 than £20,000),
then I think that it can hardly be said that the' prize
has been fairly awarded. ([Tear, hear.) The terms of
the conditions stipulated £20,000, and I would urge that, in
awarding the prize, it should, in justice to other competitors,
be ascertained how far that condition was complied with.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Charles Turner concurred fully in the observations of
Mr. Earle. He thought that as the instruction had been given
in the
.public advertisement, that architects should confine
themselves within a certai❑ limit, the committee, in awarding
the prize, had a right to know how far the architects had been
bound by the conditions. He therefore urged that, before the
council voted the prize to that plan—which everyboiy must
admit was a very excellent plan in itself, so far, at least, as
could be judged by a superficial view—they ought to know at
least the pi obable cost.
Mr. Picton : I have already given the council all the
information in my power. We had not a detailed estimate
with any of the plans: I have already stated that we are
awarding the prize conditionally. I thought I stated that
distinctly in the first instance.

Vestry, when he said that although canvassing had been
prohibited, yet it notoriously went on. He Aikin)
could cenfidentic s-n 0, without fear of any contradiction, that
nothing of the kind had occurred on this occasion, and that

whatever might have !wen the experience in reference to
former designs, in this instance everything had been conducted
with perfct fairness, and that none of the committee were at all
aware even of the names of the gentlemen who sent in the
&ans. (Hear, hear.) lie, therefore, thought there
should be no hesitation on the part of the council
in arriving at a decision which really committed them
to nothing, hut opened a door for their escape if it were found
at the last moment necessary.

Mr. Charles Turner seconded Mr. Holine's amendment, and
observed that the condition specified in Mr•. Picton's motion
was, if the cost did not exceed the estimated amount. The
amendment would substitute, instead of the estimated amount,
the distinct sum of £20,000. He did not know what the
estimated amount was—it might be 30,000, or £40,000. He
did not see why the chairman of the committee had not come
prepared with some evidence as to what the cost of the building
would be, and he thought it would have been a very fair
request to make to him, that he would postpone the recom•
mendation, and come before the council again, prepared with
some calculations on that point. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Holt said it was next to impossible, adopt what course
they pleased, to arrive at unanimity. (Hear, hear.) But the
committee, many of whom were conscious of their own inability
to venture upon a decision, had called in the aid of other
gentlemen, possessed of the best knowledge of the subject,
from whom they received advice and assistance. They could
not look merely to the condition of amount, for they might
obtain a plan complying to the letter with that stipulation, but
equally unsuitable i❑ every other respect. Under these cir-
cumstances, and so guided, they had arrived at the best
decision they could, and he did not see by what means they
could expect to obtain a more unanimous approval. (Hoar,
hear.) .

Mr. Earle said nobody disputed at all that the
design in questio❑ was the best plan, and he should be
very glad to see it executed, but the question was, whether the
council would be doing justice to the other competitors who
had not chosen to launch out in fancy, if they allowed the
prize to be given where the stipulation was not carried out.
Mr. Alderman Bold concurred with Mr. Earle. He
admired the plan very much, but doubted whether it could be
carried out for £20,000. A very small building, lately
erected in Bold-street, the Palatine Club, had cost nearly half
the amount, and he could not believe that the plan before
them would not cost more than double as much as the
Palatine Club.

Mr. Kitchen thought it possible, according to Mr. Holmes
amendment, that the very worst design should havo .he prize.
At the suggestion of the Mayor, Mr. Alderman Holme
altered his amendment to the following shape :—That pre-
viously to the council arriving at a conclusion in awarding the
priz3 for the plans, the library and museum committee, with
the assistance of the corporation surveyor, repart to the council
the amount for which the building in the plan Con .Amore
could be erected and completed."

The Mayor : Al!ow me to suggest that you add words to
that effee. It is a peremptory awarding of the prize as it
stands at present.
Mr. Picton : I have no objection.

Mr. Alderman Holme thought that in all matters of public
advertisement, where a sum was stipulated, care should be
taken that the amount was not exceeded. He very much
admired the present design, and thought it very beautiful, and
he knew it would be presumptuous of him to say that
it could not be erected fur £20,000 ; but his present
impression was, and he thought it would be also that of the
mayor, that if the building was to be erected of stone, and
and if the ornaments were to bo placed upon it as he saw them
in the design, with the present prices of labour and materials,
it would bo impossible to Construct the building itself for
£20,000. to say nothing whatever of the fittings. (Hear,
hoar.) But when the committee sent forth their circular they
named a sum, and the sum so named was not to be exceeded.
Now, if that were the case, however splendid might be the
plan, and if it were a fact that other architects had confined
themselves to the amount of £20,000, and sent in designs
which could be executed for that amount, it was perfectly
manifest that if they gave a premium to any gentleman, who-
ever he might be—and lie (Mr. Holme) was in perfect igno-
rance whose design it was—and that it was subsequently found
the work could not be executed within the prescribed amount,
then he could not help thinking that the council would be
guilty of an act of injustice to the other architects, many of
whom had sent in magnificent designs, and who had devoted a
great amount of time, and undergone considerable pecuniary
expense to produce them. (Hear, hear.) He scarcely liked a
conditional vote in a question of that character, as it might
place them in a position in which a public body ought not to
be placed. Whatever they had sent forth to the world as a
public body that they ought to adhere to, and to the strict
letter, and not he guilty of doing anything which might appear
an act of injustice to the numerous competitors who had dis-
played an amount of talent of which the country might well
be proud. (Hear, hear.) Let them test the matter at once.
If the designs in question were considered the best, let prepara-
tions be made of working, drawing, and proper• specifications.
Let them be subjected to public competition. He did not
mean to say, that if the cost were then found to exceed the
sum specified by a few hundred pounds it would be worth
quarrelling about that amount, but if it were found to exceed
it by £5,000, or £6,000, or £lO,OOO, then lie thought the
council would be making a great mistake, and committing an
act of injustice to other individuals, if they awarded the prize to
that design. (Hear, hear.) He trusted the chairman of the
committee would agree to having the design accepted by the
committee, with the express stipulation, that if, oa getting
estimates, it were found that the building could not be com-
pleted according to the terms of the stipulation, then the
architect who bad sent in that design, whoever he might be,
would unquestionably not be entitled to the premium. He
should again say, that, while hp admired the design, he believed,
to the best of his judgment—but he must bo understood as
speaking only off hand upon a casual view—that the building
could not be done for the money, and lie therefore wanted
the council to keep itself independent, and to do full
justice to all the competitors who, he would repeat, had
displayed an amount of talent most creditable to the country.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman J. H. Turner quite agreed that the council
ought to understand distinctly whether the prize was to be
given to the person who completed the building, otherwise
the council would be merely paying £l5O for the sketch before
them.
Mr. Hodson thought Alderman Holme had travelled a
little from the exact position of the committee. Advertise-
ments wore issued for designs for a library and museum, and a
maximum sum of £20,000 was fixed. That condition was
laid before the gentlemen who were about to become
competitors. The committee were not to presume that the
gentlemen had not complied with that condition. He was no
architect himself, and could say nothing except that the designs
were laid before the committee to select from, ostensibly
complying with the stipulation. His own belief was, taking a
prima facie view of the designs, that not one of them could be
built for £20,000; but he also thought that the design Con
4rnore, from what he had heard frona Mr. Weightman, the
surveyor, in whose judgment he placed great faith, and who
had gone over the whole of the drawings, could be carried out
as cheaply, or more so than any other of the designs brought
before the committee. He believed Mr. Picton could tell the
council that an estimate had come with the drawing from an
eminent builder, in which it was stated that the work could be
performed for £23,000. lie did not think any great building
ever had been constructed for exactly the emu calculated by
the architect in the first instance, and the council need only
look at St. George's Hall, or to any. of the great works being
constructed in London, or any other part of the kingdom, to
prove this.
Mr. Holme suggested an amendment in this shape—
the design be approved of, and immediate steps taken to
ascertain the cost, and that if it he found upon estimate riot to
exceed £20,000, the premium he given to the architect."
Mr, Hodson objected to this its tying the hands of the cow-

Mr. Alderman Parker demurred to
man, and then adopting► the design of another

ng the prize to one

Mr. Braneker concurred in the amendment, believing that,
at present, the council was not in a position to arrive at a
satisfactory vote.

Mr. Fernihough hoped the chairman of the committee would
accept she amendment.
Mr James liolme said, his only fear was that they could
not sufficiently go into details to enable them to arrive at a
right conelusiea. So far as his judgment, wont ho should say
the building would cost nearer £40,000 than £20,000.
(Hear, hear.) But any architect would have it in his power
to get out many ways. He might say he was going to use
fine flooring boards, where it was highly essential that there
should be pitch pine flooring beams, or he mig:it adopt
wooden beams where it was necessary that there should be
cast iron beams. (Hear, hear.) He highly approved of the
amendment, and he had that confidence in the surveyor, that
if the surveyor gave his opinion that the building could be
finished within £22,000, or £23,000, he believed the architect
would have in a certain sense fulfilled the conditions.

Mr. Picton vindicated the perfect fairness with which the
competition had been conducted, and declared that none of
the committee had any knowledge whatever of the parties.
He admitted that in his opinion, no plan in the whole lot
could be executed for £20,000, but contended that the general
design, arrangements, suitability, and a variety of other con-
siderations, must be taken into account as well as the cost.
He remarked that no architect living would undertake to give
the details suggested by some of the council, to prepare the
whole of the working drawings, and the bill of quantities for
£l5O. He instanced the Free Trade Hall in Manchester, a large
and magnificent building, capable of containing 10,000 people,
which he understood had been built for £23,000 or £24,000.
He could not say at that moment what the extent of the library
and museum committee's moans might be —at least £20,000, but
perhaps £2,000 or £3,000 more. Finally, Mr. Picton said
he had no objection whatever to the amendment, which he
would accept on behalf of the committee with pleasure.
The amendment was then carried without a division.
The remainder of the proceedings were confi med.

The name of the author of the Con Amore plan is Mr.
Allam, 1, Lonsdale road, Barnes, Surrey, and Thornhill
chambers, 103, St. Martin's lane, London. The name
of the'author of the " Alma" plan is Mr. T. Holmes, Bury,
Lancashire.
..

The proceedings of the hackney carriages and baths commit-
tee were confirmed. The latter comprised a recommendation
to increase the salary of Mr. Andrew Clarke, superintendant of
Cornwallis street bathe, from £l2O to £l6O per annum, and
of Mr. David Morris, superintendent of the Pier Head baths,
from £lOO to £l2O per annum. In compliance with the
standing orders, the recommendations were ordered to stand
over until the next council.

On the motion of Mr. Kitchen, the proceedings of the gas
committee were confirmed,

BIRKENHEAD DOCKS COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of this committee comprised a recommen-
dation to.secept the tender of Mr. George Thompson for deep-
ening the pool and works connected therewith, at the sum of
£123,186.

_
Mr. Alderman S. Holum, in moving the acceptance of the
tender, congratulated the council and the town at large that
measures had been taken for the execution of this great work,
and that it would be proceeded with without loss of time. The
contract which the committee asked the council to confirm was
for the excavation of the great float, being 2,000,000 yards of
excavation. The lowest estimate that was sent in was the
estimate of Messrs. George Thompson and Co., names familiar
to the council as of men possessing great energy and great
means ; and after the tender was accepted, and certain nego.
ciations arranged, the council would have the assurance that
a number of men would be placed on the work, anti that the
great estate which had long been tllnao,-,t unproductive to the
public, would, in a short time, be made to yield a revenue, as
well as afford great public accommodation. (gear, hear.) He
might likewise state that from negociations which had taken
place, arrangements would be made which would be found
satisfactory to the parties who had opposed them in parliament
this year, and ho was confident that when the details of these
arrangements were placed before the council they would
receive a unanimous sanction,
'Jr. Alderman Dover hoped that the committee would fully
see the necessity of having a perfect agreement with the
railway companies having a connection with the Birkenhead
docks, before they again entered into any parliamentarycontest.
Some mercy should be shown the uyortunate shareholders in
these companies, am to 'the public who had also to bear the
expense. HO *mild recommend that, if they did not come to
some agreement with the companies, they should not go to
parliament at all.
before going
Alderman Bold, in seconding the motion, observed,
that all gentlemen knew that in obtaining a bill in parliament
it was impossible to know what opposition might arise in the
course of its passing through committee. It was desirable to
obtain, if they could, the consent of all the parties interested
going to parliament, but they could not say that they
would mit go there in the absence of that consent. They were
bound to go to parliament next session, and such a pledge as
that required by by Mr. Dover could not be given.
The tender was accepted, and the general proceedings were
confirmed.

" That

The coroner's account, amounting to £47 81, was referred to
the finance committee.
A memorial from the inhabitants of Everton, in reference to
the widening of the road passing through the village, was
referred to the finance committee.
A mernerial from Mr, Alexander Neiloont of the water
committee's department, praying for an increase of salary, was
ordered to lie on the table.
A memorial from Mr. T. Gavin, of the engineers'

depart-ment, to the same effect, was referred to the health

Mr. Alderman Bennett moved the following motion,
of which he had give notice :—" That a special com-
mittee be appointed to consider and report upon the
bst plan of laying out the land and streets in the
immediate neighbourhood of St. George's-hall, and that it
be an insteuction to the courts law and St. George's-hall
committee to suspend all further expenditure upon the
boundary wall of and approaches to that building, until the
report of Lsuch special committee has been submitted to the
council,"

After the usual stereotyped jokes against the candlestick
pillars, the sneezing lions, and other adornments of the hall,

the motion was put to the vote, and lost by twelve to twenty-
seven. It was stated i❑ the discussion that all the works
were ordered, and most of them now made.

The council then adjourned,

THE LIVERPOOL WOOL SALES