The Express.
London, England, 1850-07-31 00:00:00

Halm Balboll4

DWAOsw
elleradva
dirshilides

The Wes_

..alt

Ka P. WOOD—',
The ATTORNW
eidas that sedum,
poplins ahreesir mike
Mr. P. WOOD—Well the Atteesey-Cheeral be kid
swig bs road when it is startend.
Thu AITORNST-GINZRAL red the dans es
Wat all smieberY who Me mdallid anal
reddred ,rWer ash the wad Ames' ad;
the eseersom Is the add ed eseledwed. &di mirl-;
Um* werdeider, tide arelualemehe Me emth d Mimed" owl mob. '
=Meths entrome sweellog to no Mtn borsht est deem mod pre. I
awn* is sun wee dlisamb Mask I.- litmet Gad
seldi dos abseremes din mos eseahrim mad Wm lora or the
Mess laybade• wad leleddhe menhir odd ad ahem.
memiseedow sew de o" wg pet
en Amsted wet* set noes ofteedest or istgird: Val I
seen be dad awl tbe sine poem id se by
Me lows wed matreee ahressid an meweeL
Kr. P. WOOD—Bat Ste Ist el Goa. I. diededly Medd
Terprovide act
The ATTORNEY-ORMULAL —My Mead will
,tree that Mors is so diziestxral et the ser dWm. 111.
He says it is virtually by sidettletioet dine p eed
ties. Ido net se
es. repealed. This rote s relonleg
to the laws and Mantel sows bees," Ads the eaten d
Wm. 111, that is ha bra. sod ~ =km the WNW
liable to the pales ad Modsliithe as la the statutes dna
ia V
tens.
ltr. . SMITH maid be wee ale prepared to ream tint
Bona Rothsebil4 had refused is take the oath ot abbiradle,
ad he maid use therefore moo ter the modes et the hoe.
member for Abiagdes. By the 1 Oes. 11. Map.
sm. 13, a he aadoestood, the disability es di
is pained woo meted sad whatever resohnkm flbeg
Witt emu te, they bad se power to hese a sow writ.
Sir O. GREY end it would appear es their Penal
that a isenber same to the bar, Wt o took two d Months
pmeribed by law, sad that the bet oath be proposed is take
Ida the missies et sends wards, whish he tend
M rhea Modes they were net Wadies se his eassoldes.
N. 41,413. Grey) mast say they eagle le ham
mere idea this. They oeot. to
to
Os 1111 maned of his Ma. ind homed the
eariagsay-Oessal. sad tbisking win. his dirt Mese wadi
Meng pan et the oath preowned bylaw. it have swassfing
more dna that he did get sake them weeds, Manes they
were set hieing ea bit enseitnes, belorethey desisted the
seat nowt There was she .corker gaieties, that relesdnl
the at el tiae hen Illatabor ter the city of oaa
whether Meted was Mi. Now, punnet tie inmost er
his boa. •aed herein Mead the Attorney Goseral, he woad
ewe the Imgramisa 'ebb ewe Lad. The 30 Clarks 11.,
whidi bed as referents to the oath d abjars-
ties. deed tripresely, is tame deer sad anaidipiese,
that le am et the retinal et sy mashes le take the two
met thresh sollswed Sens sod reeid be adored mast
lb its.. old hued bind then west as to page 12 et the
sopa_ whin a clamed 13th et Minion 111. was gaoled
admen( Mat my ens mbeing to take the oath of abjuration
shed be disabled ben tellies Wont. His bon. and learned
Mead thee won te the set et let Geo. 1., pegs 16 in the
Zitwhisk issued Mare et the einem of the set or
s 111., a pomading which he most esy, to his niad,
wee utterly incootpetilde with the notioa t the set of
William 111. wee repealed. New that sot (ht of Geo I.)
did not mann cos ward shoot the seat Wag nowt
bat it reetaised previa= about die tawdry to Teti
for members of parliament. Thou they erne to the
set of 6th Gee. 111. whin provides that *0 oath et indu-
rative shall be wholistend ia sash wanner sad fern as are
therein stated. True it set forth the words "ea the tree
faith of a Christian," sad thin followed the clause read by
the AtterserGesend, which clearly made the party who
refused to take that oath subject to all the pans aid pan.
hes. Now, the question was whether the and let Gee. I.
did, by implication, repeal the preview act et Wa. 111.
Hie own erne ispotestee was that it did. At the sane
time he thought they ,head be swiss hastily were
they now to deride, eves on that Flint, that the seat wee
nasal, and order a new writ to esp. He believed Shot
the penalty still attached to the wader who refused to take
the oath of sr:jawlike ; but, at the same time, both from the
doubt whether that was a direst refusal to take the sere, sad
also whether the am was still in form, be thought they
should do well not hastily to adopt the notice of to Ms.
sad learned gentleman.
Sir F. TH SSIGER sold he wig nosediagly mains upon
this commies to proceed with all proper antes aid delibera-
tion, sad, nadoubtedly, when he proposed the neolatioa it
the fern in which he submitted it to the hoses, he thrash;
that he was penning the coarse a prestedest, because.
there wse se doubt whatever that there were a variety of Ia•
stanc.s os their journals I. whin persona bad some to the
table sod had refused to take the oaths, sad apes that re-
fusal there had beta immediately a modes for the term eta
new writ. Now the Baron Rothschild nine to the table,'
sad site, ping through two of the oaths, sad the greater
pert or the third oath, at the clam of that oath there beteg
the words. " epos the tree faith of a Christian," whin is
his (Bir F. Taesiger's) iodised were a smeary sad area-
dal ran of the oath, he closed the hook and and. " I emit
that portion of the oath, because I costae; it set
biding ea say omiseience." (" No.") Well, thee, he said,
" I omit those words." He eertaioly adenoid wheat the
baron sold " I wait those words." for the moon which he
este, that that wee a dation rafted to swear. If he Vie
woad, he wished to kaew is what node the hos. patients
proposed that they should wands newly sad &slimly
whether it was the intention of the Woo to take the oath as
Frowned y the act of parliament or not He (Sr F.
Trustier) wee in the hands or the house, and was quite
reedy to take say coarse which won fair and right.
Mr. P. WOOD—I have commaoicand with the baron,
and he says he has not the least hesitation to say that it may
be taittru as a refusal to take them words.

-877iiiiTaii—thearaiprWend that eey boa.
and learned friend, the Attorney-General, would hardly feel
that there was any necessity for siring Baron Rothschild
what he claiss—a locus penitential, because It is clear it
would only end is a repiution of what he has already stated,
and which mouses to a refusal.

1140. GREYsaid it statement of the kosourable
member for she city of Oxford might be taken as a refusal
oa Buou Enthmisdel's part, they might be called upon
hereafter to knits a emit because he termed to take this oath.

Irliestedee Ise Me besiege' e-teetr +telt fee ake-Otip
Leaden. be Ibe rape of Dues Retbeilind, wee ghee pot,
midst bettil elms& •
Me MAW. wished, ta Mew _witetlter PHD weelll be
wq elpeedott se ley the reseledeoe se be ealloileeilethe
Imes es the table teaseelow, eat to We tbea primed
with the Tete% se es to be la Um base et stembete as

= ,
Ta ymel merain.
The ATTORNISTAIEHEiIUs did 11111111 bit a. eltesld
be able to lay the reeMellens is Ihe tahledhamanow, but
M wield de es ea
Mr. ANBTBY sateegimithilaillit the resolutions to be
proems* sy the noble lost es Thunday woes set eatiaic-
tory to the frleade of Bares Rotheehltd, he (Mr. Loamy)
maid being the gaged= *dee the eessidentioa el the
Maw se Friday.
The debate was *en adjourned 1W Thursday morning at
12 AWL
Thelteate •
Mink. sajoessed, at 20 ideates peat 4, till half-past
The helm remand at half-peat six s'aisek.
PETITIONS PRIMIENTED.
PARLIAKEN [ART VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Oa the *ln of the day far the eeneldention of the lords'
amendemaie me the above bill,
Oebeel 121119181 emend that he had • Emden ea the
pare will* had pregolense *this bill, sad he had set sea-
elelled Is =rust Zia motion was Ns an imperious nib.
of tobacco la Inked ; sad eertaialy,
=Lost the views ef the majority ef Irish members,
hs
daubs mat be iodised to give way to the noble lard.
Km O. A. HAMILTON, ionise observed that be was
swine that his hon. sad gallant bind should give way to
Se
Male lord,
OIL DUNNE pestles* hie modem
Lied J. RUSSELL—IL think it wield be tar better, II
Debra ambles say IMMO ea these amemimeate. I were
to state gmestally tee view we take ad them Md
el the bill m it sow stalida. The WOW is Well
aware et the eat:malty of the ease wblk makes
newsier ea the subject. That we *lax that
weenies to Eagle* we have of registered denten 23 per
met. tithe mole populatim, in Wales 82 per mat., mad in
Beetlated 26 ; the proportion in Ireland is rather lase than 2
per mat. (Hear, hear.) Without entering into farther
details, I think the home has sees • striking example of the
pateity.of sleet-ire in Ireland, at the nee* Mayo eleetioe,
where, la ems of the read moat pepteloes musties is
the kieedem, lees dim MO votes were polled by both ma-
dames. (Hear, hoer.) What we proposed is the *blest
of the number of *beton wee Asap the pment
system al sodas, wed the teams es whisk it rated,
into an occupation franchise. Now I think that
gsutlsmen VIM demos this subject are apt to lose
sight of the fact, that the franchise in Ragland is gene
ray a 40a. freehold frassithe. It is very common to say
that the menpation frameise i• England is • 601 franchise,
and that, therefore, 81. in Inlaid is too tow, but the feet is,
that in Ragland the franchise in mantise is chiefly a
forty-shilliag franchise. (Ileac) We proposed 81. and the
Lords say that it should be Ifs& According to
the latest accounts the number of occupier. rated
at 81. is 313,224, and of 151. occupiers 180,000.
14 however, we take away cos fifth, which is reckoned the
meal proportion, for doable ecoupwiems and tenements occu-
pied by females, these anaben will be-81. occupiers, 264,000,
and 131. memion, 144.000. It therefore appears that the
amendseest of the Lords strikes net no less than 139,000 out
of 204.000 to wheat the house had proposed to give the
Might of • , thus maids' the proportion of penny to
the male potion *eying the franchise much less then
his in ._ I promo' sew in mine degree to modify
that greet redaction, by taking 121. instead of lit.,
es
es„ almerding to our calnilatios, to give 174,000
eases WNW of 144,000, the career of the Lords'
eeseonilm. Our original proposal would have given
the Stmehite to 15 per cent. of the population, the Lords'
aseerlement would give it to about 8 per cent., and my ri-
sme raped would give about 10 per amt. I think that if
the right *voting were to be raised to • 161. rating, ce
shove it, the quietism would immediately arise—whether
there Mould nos be also some ether description of teaure
fresaise--whedere, in short, the old system of 40t. free-
holds should not be restored. (Hear, hear.) I
wish, If possible, to give such a number as will
term a sufficient constituent body for the country,
sad ea them grounds I shall propose that imaged
of fil., white I thought • perfectly nameable motion, we
meet the Lords by Mantis, 121., thereby almost dividing the
difference. Bat there is another alteration made by the
Lords, which I ma hardly call an amendment, but to which
I snarls greet impacting*. The whole principle of the bill
whether it takes an 81., • 121, or • 161. trembles, was that
imetead at claims for registration sad their consequent son-
Matisse the rats book should be, as it were • elf-acting
register, and should place on the list all persons entitled
M vote. I think the adoption of that plan
would have mural this benefit, that without
the iaterfereme of the landlord or may other
poem yea wield have a register of voters wily
made. end the ealy mention would occur at the rare period
of an eked= (wises, of mune, the used heat and enema
must be expected), instead of at the annual registrations as at
present, while all vexatious and complicated cams" of Alec-
Viol& would be got rid of. (Hear, hear.) I ALA thoreiste,
propose to disagree altogether to the emendates% cf the
Lords on that part of the bill, because they soma to me to
be directly opposed to its priaciple. Them alteration Mk I
shall sot propos, to insist, on some other et
the bill which the Lords have altered, slWsgi I have
not changed my opinion ea espreesed ea a homer'
debate remedies them The Ant amendmeet is os a Tess- I
lion which was mach diseased here, namely, whether the
word' " owner Graham " should be inserted. I shall not
raargee the point, but merely say that I am reedy to agree
to the 'madman of the Lords. Another wed* which
was also rich debated here was that of joust occupancy.
There wua great difference amongst Irish members about
it, and as it hag breams* out by the Lords, I certainly do
not propose to reinsert it. The clause giving. the
treads* to 61. holders for life or in fee is, I
think, an important clause, and after the sales of small
properties in Ireland may dive • considerable clam of free-
hold voters. That hat been altered by uniting the quelifi •
cants to be beyond poor rates and county ass, but as that
is in conformity with the practice in England, I shall net
interfere with the alterations. florae words have been in-
serted preventive borough voters voting for a county, al-
though they may have a freehold right. I think them too
stringent, but they are not of sufficient imnor-
tence„, in: my opinion, to justify disagreement. There
have been • good many minor amendments, and
the schedules have been altered to meet the
alteration is the franchise. As the bill originally st',od, it
wield came into operation on the Ist June, 1850, but as at
messed invaded the registration would commence on the
9* September and be completed en the 13th March, 1861,
while every future registration would commence on the Ist
lama and remalaia force to the 13th November. Therefore,
the first miner wasld last to the let December, 1850. 1
thick them te reasonable in order to give time to
understand the MII, led therefore I worm to agree to these
latter ameedments. The whir lord concluded by repines
that the ram of 111. bussed of 151. should he inserted.

Mr. ROEBUCK raid he understood that Baron Rothe
child wished it to be takes that he had refused to pronounce
eartain words, am that he had reseed to take the oath.
(Hear. hear.) He shosld De proverad, at a proper time,
to argue that he bad taken the wadi. (Hear, hear.)

11;. Album SIDNEY anteceded that the baron
had taken the oaths required by law, and was to all intents
sad purpose. a member of the Maw. Let them not stultify
the choice of the Raton of Laßosa by rejecting the nisaber
whom they bad twice returned. (Hear, Mar.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he rose raer•lT foe the
pose of asking the house to come to some decision with re.
meet to the order of their proceeding. If the home thought
It to stoma he two boar, sad then meanie this debate,
that mans might certainly be taken. Or, if the boo. and
loaned member for Oxford, or the right hoc. mambas for
Northaaptaa, oe say other hen. member, thought that the
question was not in aft state to be &tidal, it would be a
=lea he the hoses to consider for what period they
it. (Loud cries of " Divide.") Perhaps the
and learned member who might be comildered as
representing Berea Retlesehild m that ottessiost would state
whet was his wish, he the bea. mamba for the City of
London ought net to ham say reason to vampish' that his
ease had sot been fully Meld.
Mr. P. WOOD said he umisestood that several gentle-
ma wished us address the brass oa this subject. That
=he mem and so It was dairable that the quostiou
be dimessed to the frame and amplest manner, the
best way would reliably be to adjusts the debate to the
earliest meals time —tIM etertmos at id: o'clock.
Mr. DIM/ALI ihought it desirable that the debate
should be adjourned till next day. (" No, no.") The eon.
Miseatioa et the Irish Framable Bill bed been Read for that
day, and it would be 'messiest to premed with the soup
si&ratioa of the lords' assendinente that everting. (Load
Wile of "Divide.")
The ()FRAMER —I mast ark the noble lord (Ranall)
dose he mew die edlearamsat M the debate ?
Lord J. 11011111 U—Ia elemmumme et what has fallen
from the hem nod honied member he Ogled, I will Rove
that the debate be dll six Weiesk this day.
Mr. WOOD it would be the wish of every
am that they should peaseed w a dickies. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. 0811011111 Maid to state my Reedy the mom
why he did met 11111111111 i• Meer the house sa this mesetisa.
(Hear, sad laughter.) He took a amnia-sew view if
the matter, sad did set intend to be shied by the quibbles
el Ywpew. se the medicate of the Pans Meister. The
home W hew Mop/ Omagh a most diegesestal premed-
kg. If be had se kips dos that Muse, M had filth in
the Aimee of Lougee ; and be mail tell the home that
they were segoging la a Mika eat of which they could
oely some with dieoppelmluseet mod disguise. (Hear.)
Able a few woods lb= Lied J. RUSSELL,
Mr. STANFORD eilmeatil the adjearanteat amid load
and impaeleat wise of "delis."
The house Res divided ea the onsedatat, whoa the
*umbers were :

rir. Id. OASKBLL said that the proposal of the noble
lord was of the deepest importing*, awing that it would not
only effect great alterations is the Irish 000stituencies, but
would interfere with the rights sad privileges et • so-ordinate
branch of the kg:stature. He wasted that as their rejection
of the Lords' emendate,* would most probably load to the
flljeCiloll of the bill, they would not be lightly disposed of
by that house. It amid be time to discuss the tasathre of
the franchise after they had tested the operation of this bill.
It was easy to say that the abuses of representation would be
great, bat than were °dig r dangers. He might be permitted
to say that then were dangers of which we were far move
likely to feel the effects—that there were systems of govern-
ment more 'twisting. and inseam. The system of govern-
mot in which there was • larger infneeon of demonacy than
was compatible with the maintenance of the democracy was
• more dangerous thing. The real question was, in what pro-
pontos' were the ratepayers of Ireland likely to form a
suitable and Independent coastitueicy ; in what
tiou were they likely to be independent of external infuses.
so as to make it prudent in parliament to confer the fran-
chise. His firm belief was that the independence
of the House of Peen was as dear to the people of
Beglaad ws any inetitutiest er any liberty which
they ended, for he believed that those who sought, whether,
la tide hens, or out of it, to overawe or overbear the did-
dens of that breath of the legislature, repossessed the feel-
tags of • very mall sad very iaelinifietiat fraction of the
people. He believed that the madmen* in this bill were
justified by the present state of Ireland, and that they were
demaaded by considered°. of public policy, and he trusted
that the majority of this house would rather take counsel
trots former prociedests, thaa act upon the bolder, though
Ism illaCidAS *mad of these who called epee them to
reject this bill.
Mr. FRENCH did eel think the tendeumr of the bill
woad be to extend the democratic 'learnt. The franchise
wee maw proposed to be 121. Was it likely that a twat of
121., liable to be turned out at the will of his landlord, was
=Luso be aa independent voter and express kis own
? He regretted to state that the proposal of the
noble lord at the bead of the government did not Merida
the dislike which he had to the measure. Disfraachisement
wee net lesseaed by • proposal to take a 94,000
vinare. It was a diefraachisiag act, sad ao former go-
vernal's* or Individual had ever before proposed • measure
of this kind. He could not, with regard to the interests and
feel's,* of those by whom be was sent here, give his support
to the bill.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he hoped it would not
be forgotten that this 16i. franchise, as proposed by the
Hogue of Dada would erode a great distinction between
the members *vise the fraaLse in the other pins
of the Wisdom, end he hoped that the proposition of hie-hoo.
friend near him would aoe be lost sight of, and that the
house would eaaseint to •t 121. for

Voiii;.asestlaait ll7

naiad it
Lied J. HUBBELL thea reownseaded that Sir F.
should withdraw his notice to give time fee farther
manties into presedests.
Sir F. THISIGEft was very desirous to leave the matter
oath* la the heads of Lord John Rates% and aignitled his
willingaesr to withdraw kis notisa.
Mr. hoped that this would act be allowed.
it,. V. 8141 TH coateaded that air F. nuptial' motion
asserted what was antra*. The bares had not refused to
take the ea*, but had kissed the book, sad said, u 8o help
sae OW whisk was very like actually taking the oath. He
Thedger. hoped do bone would negative the 'settee of itte F.
Mr H. IL INOLIS esaaplaised of Mr. V. thaitiee lan-
guage, ad further resaarked that the baron might have
taken sa oath, but sot the oath maimed.
Lord J. IiVeBIILL then sawed that the debate be ad.
jaunted till Thassday, at twelve, whoa the A -fleas-
ral could briestfarward sash reselatisaa sa he sad Lord J.
Hassell should Is the wan note agree saes.
Mr. P. WOOD end Mr B. Haw. Ikea the motion should
bs arganved.
Mr. ROEBUCK did mg see thew of adjourning. All
gag hog eters before the how.
Mr. AIfST=Y 'risked te know tie nature of the reale-
those Formed to be iatrodeted.
Atter a few words Cuss Mr. &maxi;

—fictrtilo6llLYlTiaeiiiits—hW.sgesttl;irsit to state how
the Indeed= was to he takes.
Sir W. SOMIIRVILLK said. that by the law as It now
stood, when the Wootton was oesplettd, the valuation
must assumedly be formed upon the poor law valuation. Be
quite admitted the faportanea et this question, and It should
reedy' tie etesidera of the 'warmest. Aooordinu to
this bill, the heathen would leo homed ea the poorisw
valustioa.
Mt. itoolllll esid thss .selther of the greet penis. fa the
Mae sad a heaths OW the rights of Ireland, but thee

THE =Milk WEDNESDAY STUNG, JULY 31; 1850.

sySac=t lb. beide geoundef ihstion, o
th
n&
to be eking to. Why had
lli=leglas Write fa throe lege, sadden'
ead meted " s
wee beware tho Dulape*almei ofr's pirt
glostestioa had
I
i eaggereed the 121. ameadnessit.terdj that{
-;*o==otted differed from Lad Jolla Buss&
en of • self- meths loghtrallohd . "
..tE.T.N inputted the governagat bat tee
that the bpi had besa impaired.
ILEMENTS said that every blab umber who bad
=iseuned to .he-iet hour of tha 121. Mathis, la peso
to the 161. /Id was also maims that thei In. few
Ghia should be odegiased the oalgfiefillhet MM 011 to
es
.tres sa member. Me idgeoden of the
mealier hr Elm s Lyles us fiseaki 'albs haperfelet
elthe of Ike Wiestkala seder We taw to behad. Now,
be mall sat% ea lis own ko . Mat the Irish valeta-
Moe were he ssemeosegest thee valeatioas. If
M.
kid mils that they telewaeA=hitaloi:ea seowiayates l
tot:-
lisil
ral effiggisiall.weald. she a rakeleat UM he hake of
1711111
I"
CB.A.II#O2IIbI4D alsolm'. pra a relneteat vets is
blur of du liable lara's proposithm, and wished it
lobs andoestool that ha meant nth( hilt... pgreasasat
nt
MULLY esid that whealso owelderodthat indwells
$l. franchise the Dumber oiwellegoia Inked weak be UM
ender the W. 127,400, gad wodog the 16d
lethal at hil Ins* diEekaell la the .ashestlataltd be
ON W the two latter, ho thought that to do present do
Mato of tho transitive in Inked. he was in duty
head give his vote le hem of the 181. Mks.
Mr. BRIGHT said a. maw, 1 , is of *the
shoe the geweaseneot pupae& with the useilsa el the hide
INl"lbikes was it absolutely lssew' to do so.
attad the rejosessitalioa of Irelood *litany radii-
(aima) They feud eight 1111111/10 if peeps Inks
else. OithelkNea of Utah 'shady Ia this hem Or ID the
esongsy bugle so math as the milk hod at du hoed of
SW gegerameng. sad yet having Medway (as already ea
vle 100 ) rehrutatathe whisiews. (Hear, boar.)
it.. had ea illoserstien of the egaditiga of slabs Ng
inland witida the last week. Now, the nebk Med. fled ha
hod la this Mato, emu do
to the Maw with a
at the oemmeaosiment of the seethe; OW. he
the Int time, he there lave brae
ow icreizSas of the . Mee
kind for throe „lens andens. whoa Oa amble
hod had got en this Ws of the table that was abut to do
something handsome la fulfilment of the whet be
bad made oa the other side. He ia a swears by
whisk 264,000 votes were atimitially to be to the owar
dm of Ireland ; 264,1)39 was,'lnwever, wry huh more Mee
tke real mamba. That would be the utmost if every mar
pier were placed oa the register ; bat there are the easel of
widow., sad many other seise 1n wheat the parties araupylas
could not appose oa the register. The :umber would pro-
bably be brought down, speaking within the mark, mere
thee 10, perhaps 20 par cont.
Lord J. RUSSELL wee naderstood to say that that was
not the tact.
Mr. BRlGHT—Perhaps the settle lord may have made
the enema, &Bowsaws; bat, ha this se it nay, a difference
of ten or twenty thawed is of ao great importance to say
argument. TM noble lord's propositioa was that 261.00)
permits should be eafreaeldied in the counties of Ireland.
Mr. WCULLACIII—That was fee the whole of Ireland.
Mr. BRIGHT—I am sorry that I Should be supposed to
have exaggerated the good which would have been effected
by the bill. Take it which way yogi will, I thick the argu-
ment is the same. The noble lord defended the proposal of
an 61. feasehise in this boom in a masur which to me was
perfectly salishisteery. I objected, as did many other hon.
atemben, to the bowleg an 81 fraathise for boroughs. But
what was said ow these beaches ? I am not apt to be dc-
laded by statements made from the bench below; but
It was said that as 81. fnathis• for the counties
would he a capital thing ; and that, although
the proposal of such a franchise for the boroughs
might be a mistake, it would be avoided if the thing
had to be done over again; yet we smut not grumble be.
cause we did not get everything in one werion ; and as ex-
pectation was held. oat that by-and-by, when the suffrage
game to be 'vended in England, there would be no diffi.
catty in reducing the 81. borough franchise to 61., should it
then be thought desirable to do so. Well, now, with all
those statements, we felt somewhat satisfied that the noble
lord at least meant to stand by sad to carry through palls-
meet what he had proposed. !tow, the, has he acted ?
The noble lord, be it remembered, is at the head of the govern.
meet, audit would not do for him to say that he has not voted
as the Marquis of Lansdowne has in the other house. He
must take upon himself the responsibility of what has been
done by the cabinet ministers in the House of Lords.
Although I have not the exact words before me, I belie,* I
shall be supported by the recollection of hon. members, whoa
I say that the waded of the government in the other house
has not only been directly wearer, to its conduct in this
horse, bat affords the greatest reason for believing
that when the soble lord and his colleagues pro-
praed the 81. franchise in this house, it wu not tatndied
that that franchise should be paned, but that it should be raised
to some other amount. But now what is it that the house of
Lade have due ? They have cut down the' 64,000 electors
to something like 140.000, imitating the government of
Paris in the set of reducing by one-halt the franchise of the
people of Fresno. (Hess, hear.) The noble lord will not
accept a ISL franchise, but he prop.. • half way house
between 81 aad 161., giving to the other house an advantage
in the division, he proposes 121, which will loan, if I under-
stead him rightly, about 170,000 demean. The noble lord
himself proposes to sweep away one-third of the numbers he
advocated a few masthead*. Now. I want to call the attention
of the house to the dividOse by which this 81. franchise was
passed. la the tommittai of this house there were 213
votes fur the 81. franchise and 144 for the 161. franchise ; the
majority 69 ia favour of the first. Oa the third tea 'ins then
were 254 votes for the bill sad 166 against it ; the majority
being 68. Now, what was the majority in the other
house ? There were 60 votes spina and 72 for the 161 fran-
chise ; so that it was carried there by a ataj wit, of 22. votes.
If you add together the majorities of both houses of parlia-
ment, and if you also add the minorities in both, you will
find that there was, on the whole, a majo-
rity of 47 vows in favour of the lower Multi**.
(Lsughter.) I know very well that that is a kind of arith-
metie which is sot generally practised I. the House of
Commons. (Hoar, Mar.) I am not asking the home, there-
fore, to adopt it; I am only stating to them • fact; and I
may state further, that a bill which paved this bran by a
majority of 264 votes against 186, has been neutralism' and
almost destroyed in the other house by a vote of /9 against
50. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt that there are penal,
who believe that one vote in the other house of parliament is
worth three votes in this house ; but on a question of the oaf-
raga and of popular rights, I am disposed to think that'
if the constitution, taking the word in the sense in which
it is used by the noble lord, is to give any particular weight
to either bane of pariiiunent, this house ought to be tong-
drred of ; more importance than the Hoare of Lords.
We have had a question to day, which affords another
specimen of the dead lock into which the two houses of par-
liament are working themselves. Year after year the noble
lord has brought forward • measure to emancipate, as it is
,ermed, a certain class of persons in this country ; and year
after year the measure has been pawed in this house. But
when it goes to the House of L irds this measure is scarcely
discussed : there not only the House of Commons but the
ministry is treated with contempt, and the hill is kicked out
as a thief/ too ridiculous for calm oonsideration. Perhaps
the noble lord proceeds on the principle of ripening the
pear—as it was formerly termed—in thus bombarding
the House of Lords with good measures ; out the result is,
that he allows every good measure to be pared down until
it will pass through the minute guage which suits the other
house. (Cheers.) Well, sow, how long is this to go on i
It is quite clear that the noble lord's constitution wilt not
work. It does not work even now to his own satisfaction.
It does not work even to keep himself in alai ; for as the
two houses are going on, and, as the government is situated
between them it Is quite clear that his government cannot last
long. What does the noble lord intend to do? It
is rumoured that be intends to add to the detail-
eratio element in the House of Commons. Well, but
if that element is now too much for the House of Lords,
how can henpect to get on more comfortably when he
shell 114.0 aided 60 more members, who will vote mina
him wbes he dose not go far enough in proposing measures
of reform ? (Hear, hear.) The abet of any extension of
the democratic element is this house will be to increase die-
cord and difficulty between the two houses, or the oohs
lord's comtitution must be extingaithed, because the hods
will have to saseemb. TM owes which is =
now is one that is both hassilistlas to the hones and
five to the noble lord's government Nearly even' doe he
sends a assesureap to the Home of Lords it is Mooted ; wife
this manner difficulties arise between the two houeelult=
went and the discerner of thou/big lord's 'overslaugh
elated. Whatever may be his majorities in chi' hems blend.
tan is becoming mare and snore humiliating ; and I soneess that
I do regret sou deeply that, attar all the union shish the
noble lord hes performed la years past, by write' mea-
asures which, If they have not gone so fir as I could
have wished, have perhaps, gone as far as circumstances
would pgrailt—l do regret that he should not be able
to carry out the principles which he has professed.
With regard to this bill, I believe the greatest and safest
policy towards Ireland is the most generous policy.
(Cheers.) You have tried the other policy for cen-
turies, and there is not a spectacle In the world so
Mutilating to • government as the spectacle of
Ireland is to oar own. (Hear, hear.) You have
ailed to govern through the landlordsi of Ireland,
through what you call the territorial system. Your govern-
ment has lamentsbly failed ; it has made that Island a seen.
of anarchy. Year proprietors are for the most part ruined ;
your people have been starved off, and have emigrated by
hundreds of thosseada. I learn (soma paper which has been
road before the Statistical Society of Dahlia; that the writer
states his belief that at the next anew the population of
Ireland will not be found greater than it was in
1831. If It be to this that your system has brought
Iceland, I ask you whether it be not time to
change? (Hear, beer.) Irishmen are like other men ; they
may be controlled, sad guided, and governed by kindness,
geuerosity, and Judos. (Cheers.) Do you still wish that
the representatins of Ireland should be the reprebentatives
of Its territorial proprietors only, and are you staid to have in
your hones one hundred path/meet who represent the great
mama of the occupying tenantry? If you had a bun.
deed representatives of this kind, even if we did not
legislate in all thing. as they might desire, still they would feel
that their solo* was heard in the Imperial pall/se's•,* and
oomparhs dui:position with that of Lanaiskire, Yorkshire,
and Devonshire, they would fool that their countrj men wen
treated by the Imperial legislature with the same Justice se
die great mass of the population of England and &Viand.
I repeat, m,waviollos, that the true policy for Ireland
Is • llherhi and generous policy ; sad let me add,
that If pm wish aWithdraw themes trom the thfloeutet*

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