The Northern Daily Times.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1853-12-23 00:00:00

DOCK CO lf,lll rTEE. -YESTEIUM Y.

The usual weekly meeting of the dock committee took
place at one o'clock yesterday, Mr. CRARLES TURNER in the
chair. The other members present were—Messrs. Robinson,
Brocklebank, Gregson, Chaloner, Steele, James Holme,
Barber, Robertson Gladstone, Langsdale, Lockett, Malcom-
son, Royden, Evans, Rounthwaite, Rankin, and Smith.
The Secretary read the minutes of the last day's proceed-
ings.
Mr. GLA.DSTONE said : Mr. Chairman, would you permit
me to say,ithat the subject of funding our bonded debt has
by no means, escaped my attention. Ido not consider the
present moment the right time to bring before the notice of
the committee any scheme for the object contemplated; but,
whether I may be right or wrong, it has not been by any
means forgotten by me, and in a short period I will take an
opportunity of mentioning it to the finance committee what
my views are upon the subject.
The CHAIRMAN ; I am sure that the finance committee
will be very glad to consider such an important question. It
is a very desirable object-to take into consideration.

THE HARRINGTON DOCK ESTATE.

The CHAIRMAN read a report of the sub-committee of
works, submitting a plan for laying out a portion of the
Harrington dock estate in yards, from the south to the west,
for storing timber, which they recommended to be approved.
They also recommend that the rate of rent for occupation
by the year being five-sixteenths of a penny per square yard
per week, and that temporary accommodation be one half-
penny per square yard per week, and that these rates of rent
take effect from and after the Ist of April next.
Mr. STEELE said, as a member of the committee of works,
he had objected to that proposition when it was brought for-
ward there, and of course he was in a minority. Why they
should commence to increase the rent upon the Ist of April
next was perfectly incomprehensible to him; for up to the
Ist of August the timber trade had no impost, and he did
not see why they should pay an increased rent during the
period of the year which elapsed between the Ist of Agra
and that time. He could not see why. if they were to in-
crease the rent, they should not commence at the next
impost, when the land would be actually required, instead
of the Ist of April, after which, for upwards of four months
the land would lie dormant. Moreover, he contended that
the proposed alteration would be found not to operate to
the advantage of the dock estate. Since the last meeting of
the committee he had ascertained the feelings of many
parties, and he believed there would not bo one additional
penny gained by the dock estate, in addition to the fact that
it would create feelings of by no means a pleasant character.
Mr. HOLME said it was well known that the Harrington
dock estate had cost a very large sum of money, and, al-
though he should be the last man to desire to oppress the
timber trade, still he should consider that that committee
had a certain duty to perform, and that they were sitting in
that room as members of a great public trust. It had been
well known that the Harrington dock property cost above
£300,000, and that it was producing only something like
£4,000 a year. Now, the question which that committee
had to consider was, whether they should attempt to get for
that land something like what the value of the property was
believed to be. The sub-committee of works took into con-
sideration the fact of the timber trade being in its present
position. He could say for one, that he believed the rent
they had fixed to be a far lower rent than the property
would have been given for to other parties, but he considered
that there was a great advantage derived from the timber
trade as attached to the dock estate. Persons must not sup-
pose that the £36,000 put down as the return of the Bruns-
wick dock, was clear money, because they had to sacrifice
£lO,OOO or £12,000 a year to keep the Harrington dock
estate in its present position. Now, for one individual, he
could say that he had no intention of pressing too hard upon
the timber trade, but he thought they were bound, in jus-

tice to the estate, to see that They derived the proper value
for their property. He had even gone to Is. 6d. a yard,
but feeling that several members of the committee were in-
clined to meet the timber trade, it was agreed to snake it a

lower rent, and he therefore thought it only right that the
committee and the public should know exactly the posi-
tion in which they stood, and the principle upon which they
had acted.

Mr. STEELE coul 1 not suppose but that there must be a
feeling towards the north end when an attempt was made to
raise the rents of that land, and put the trade in such a posi-
tion. He gave it as his candid opinion that the committee
would find at the end of twelve months, by that attempt to
increase 25 per cent. upon these rents, and they, would be
taxed for the increase_also, they would scarcely derive one
penny profit.
Mr. CHA.LONER thought that viewing the question as a
matter of property, the estate was likely to gain more by
low rents than it would by imposing too high rents.
Mr. EVANS hoped that the committee would not be inti-
midated from getting what was in reality no more than half
the value of their land. If the estate were to give the land
for such low rents as some parties proposed, he should prefer,
for the honor of the thing, giving up the land to them alto-
gether for nothing. (Laughter).
Mr. STEELE : Perhaps even that would not be a very un-
wise act.
Mr. EVANS would rather do so than be trifled with. He
denied that the committee of works had agreed to anything
exorbitant, and the majority of the committee who were

present when the report was passed, were living by the tim-
ber trade themselves. It was literally extorted from the
convictions of these gentlemen, against their interests and
their wishes, be had no doubt. But were they to be going
on as they had been ? Were they to be losing 8,0001. to
10,0001. a-year upon property of that sort ? Were they not
to take any remedial measures ? With regard to the land,
if they were to let it for other purpoees, they had an exam-
ple upon the spot. There was one considerable lot which
was let for no less than three shillings a-year, and if they
were to let the land in question, he had no doubt but tha4
they would get the same for it.
Mr. GREGSON thought the committee should be guided in
some measure by the rent of the land adjoining.
Mr. HOLME said the position in which the committee found
itself was this. Any attempt they made to get a proper va-
lue for the land was met by the timber trade, who said that
if the land was taken from them their trade would be de-
stroyed altogether • and yet it was a positive fact that if a
timber merchant himself had land in the same position, the
moment he had an opportunity of selling it he immediately
sold it. He was not aware of the price which Mr. Halhead
had got for his land ; but had not that gentleman sold his
land, and had he not deprived the timber trade of the pos-
session of it, because he could get a party to pay him a
greater price for it, the interest of which was more than an
equivalent for what he was deriving from it in rent. The
question was this : Were the committee of works to submit
to see their valuable land left in its present position. It
should be left in its present position, of course, until some-
thing was done to meet the requirements of the timber trade;
but at the same time were they doing their duty in letting
that land, as was now the case, far below its cost ? The
dock dues of the Brunswick dock last year amounted to
36,0001. Now if they made a sacrifice of 12,0001. a-year on
the Harrington dock estate, they must take that sum from
the 36,0001. which appeared before the public as the produce
of that dock. When the land was purchased, it was pur-
chased at the suggestion of the timber trade, that a dock
should be made there. The moment the committee sought
to get the land, there was an outcry raised that if they took
it they would be destroying the trade. Here, then, was the
committee of works placed in such a position tltat they did
not know what to do at the present moment. (Hear, hear).
Mr. EvANs said that £36,000 a year was not all derived
from timber. A great deal of other trade went into that
dock, which made a considerable proportion of the £36,000.
Mr. LANGSDALE said the land more south was not let for
less than a farthing.
Mr. CrIALONER : Nothing like that.

Mr. STEELE : It does not pay above an eighth

Mr. CHALONER : Let the land be nut up in lots, by
tender. That will convince you that thA Lracte
cannot afford to go to tho aura -.WA% is spoken of per year.
Mr. HoLmE : Are the timber traders prepared to give
back the land, and let us deal with it as if it belonged to us
as individuals ? If the timber trade will do so, let them
deliver back the land, and let us begin to cut a canal through
it, and make use of it as if it were our own property.
Mr. SMITH said he had heard what had been said by
different speakers : and certainly, he should agree with the
principle laid down ; that if the property was worth
£300,000, it could not be urged for a moment that the
committee should give it at such a rate that it would only
produce £3,000 a year. Upon the principle laid down, he
quite agreed ; but he woad argue against the system which
it was proposed to adopt. It would be clear, in the work
recently published by Mr. Poole, that the value of the tim-
ber imported into Liverpool in the year 1852, :was
£300,000, and the amount of space covered by it 250,000
yards. Now, 2s. per yard upon these 250,000 yards, would
amount to a sum of £25,000 per annum, which was equal
to 2 per cent. upon the entire value of the ''hole of the
timber imported into Liverpool in 1852. If, however, they
made the calculation only upon that portion of the timber
which was stored during that time, it would be found to
amount to 4 per cent. Now, in the case of an
article, such as timber—an article of such very
little value, and such very great bulk—he would ask any gen-
tleman present, whether it was possible that the trade could
be so taxed as at the rate of 4 per cent. upon the value of the
article. It was not possible, and all this consideration led
to the conclusion that the committee, bcforo thoy took any
atop which might produce a result of that kind, should in the
first instance make up their minds how they would find
accommodation for the trade. In the Brunswick dock it
appeared that there was £36,000 a year received in the
shape of dock dues. The timber trade produced in the
shape of dock-, dues upon the ships and the timber, consider-
ably more than £30,000 a year, and therefore, he said it was
important for that committee to be very careful how they
took any step which might operate injuriously. If they
took any step which operated upon the trade injuriously,
the trade might be driven to take up their locality in another
place, and it might be difficult to bring it back again. He
should therefore recommend that until they had provided
themselves with better accommodation for the timber trade,
they should be moderate in their present charges.
Mr. LANGSDALE said he did not know any parties in
Liverpool who would sooner sell their land and get a profit,
than those in the timber trade. Mr. Halhead, who made
such a cry out for want of room was about the first to sell
his land, and deprive the trade of that quantity of ground

for stowage. He did not think the timber trade was in a
position to complain. He remembered the charge being a
halfpenny the square yard 40 years since; and there was no
grumbling then.
Mr. HOLME said Mr. Halhead was the owner of a piece
of land, which was calculated to accommodate the timber
trade. It did not, therefore, show any very great zeal upon
his part for keeping the timber trade in that part of the
town, when he sold his land for a larger per centage than
the land now in question yielded to the deck estate.
Mr. Evials said Mr. Smith appeared to have gone upon a
calculation that the whole timber trade of Liverpool•went
into the yards, 11v4 much went off the quays at once, and
how many cargoes lay the whole year in the-yards ?
should think there must be a great error upon the, part,of
any one who kept it there the whole year.
Mr. SMITH : I think you must have misunderstood my
argument, for what you have observed goes rather to
strengthen my case. My calculation is that the charge
would be 2 per cent. upon every log of wood which comes
into Liverpool. There never is stored more than one-half,
and therefore it will amount to something like 4 per. cent.-
Mr. BROCKLEEANK : Do you base your calculation upon
the superficial area of the laud you occupy, and not by the
pile of timber ?
Mr. SMITH : I am speaking of the value of the timber.
The ground occupied in storage in 1852, was 250,000 yards
which, at 2s. per yard per annum, will come to 2 per cent.
upon the entire value of the timber.
Mr. RANKIN said it was impossible to deny that the rent
fixed was far less than the value of the ground; but at the
same time, while they had no accommodation to offer to the
timber trade, he thought it would be very injudicious4to
raise the rent ; and he would for one, for a year or so, until
further accommodation was afforded, which might vsnr .vun
be the case, think that Is. 4d. would be s proper rate
per yard. He did not mean *..ay that he would extend
uri.;..,h mat rate should prevail longer than
the period during
until .ul/4,11 time as proper accommodation could be afforded
to the trade; but he thought that until that could be done,
it might be the interest of that estate to keep down the,rate
at present, and even to make no distinction between large
quantities in the year, and small quantities, because it really
appeared to him that it was a matter of more importance to
give accommodation to casual importers who did not know
where to place the goods for the moment, and might take
the option of going to other docks, and'depriving then of
the dues altogether. He would, therefore, suggest that an
amendment shoulde proposed upon the report of the 'sub-
committee, to the erect that the rent should be is 4d in all
cases, to take effect from and after the, Ist July next, and to
prevail for a period of twelve months.
Mr. BA 'arum denied that 2 per cent was excessive rent,
and contended that if a eine eiatien -e-or. :eagle of all the differ-
ent cargoes coming into the town it would be found that that
amount of rent did not exceed the charge made on the

average.
Mr. GREGSON then moved an amendment to the effect
that the rent be id. per week or Is. 4d. per annum for the
next ensuing twelve months, whether for permanent occupa-
tion or for temporary occupation.
Mr. CHALONER seconded the amendment. 4.
The CHAIRMAN put the amendment, which was lost by
12 to 5.

Mr. SMITH then proposed a second amendment to the effect
that the rent for permanent occupation be is. per annum,
and for temporary occupation three-eighths of a penny per
week.

Mr. ROITNTHWAITE seconded the amendment.

Mr. EVANS : Oh! that is only a farce altogether. There
has been no cause whatever made out for over-ruling the
report of the committee.
'f he CHAIRMAN put the amendment, which was negatived
by 10 to 7.
Mr. SPNICLE :—Perhaps the committee would not object
to a little change being made in the time when this rule is to
come into effect ? It is fixed here that, the alteration shall
commence on the first of April. Now the import in the tim-
trade is not received until the end of July or the be of
August, and during that period of three or four months, with-
out any import coming in, it is hardly fair that we should be
under this rent.

Mr. LANGSDALE said he was sorry to find their ancient
ground was disputed, and by one of their own body.
Mr. STEELE said he was himself perfectly disinterested
in the matter.

The CHAIRMAN: It is the best course, perhaps, to•refer
the question back to the committee.
Mr. EVANS: Oh, not at all; why should it be referred
back ?

The CHAIRMAN : Mr. Steele wishes that it should be dis-
cussed over again as regards the time when it is to come into
operation.
Mr.ISTEBLE said that seeing what were the opinions of the
committee, he would not persevere with any motion on the
au bject.
The CHAIRMAN then put the original report to the vote,
and it was conirmed.

A report was read from the harbour masters 'r ith reference
to a proposed alteration in the graving blocks. The report
recommended that no alteration should be made.

After a short conversation, it was agreed that the report
should be referred to the harbour masters' committee, and that
Messrs. Barber, Royden, and Brocklebank, be requested to
attend the committee for the purpose of discussing the
question. •
A copy of the rules and re,gulations for the master porters
was submitted and confirmed, to come into operation on tho
th January.
A letter was read from the president of St. Ann's dispen-
sary, requesting that the committe e would contribute the
usual yearly sum of 301. towards that charity. It was re=
solved that the request be complied with.
A letter was read from the secretary of the shipbuilders'
association, calling attention to the frequent instances in
which vessels using the graving docks were charged the same
for fourteen tides as for twenty-four tides.
Mr. LOCKETT said the rule was made in order that there
might be some check to prevent vessels from remaining in
the graving dock longer than was necessary, as it was most
important that the harbour masters should be made aware
of the time each vessel was about to remain, in order that
the arrangements for the reception of other vessels might be
made.

Mr. BROCKLEBANK observed that the question brought
up the subject of lighting the docks. They had all perceived
that private enterprise had lit up a vessel inside as if shi3
were lighted by the sun; he thought it was very remiss of
the committee that they had not taken some step for the
lighting of the graving docks before.
The letter was referred to the harbour masters' com-
mittee .
This closed the general business.

There have been heavy floods-in Devonshire, destroying
much property.
ILLICIT DISTILLATION IN SCOTLAND.—IIIicit distillation
is enormously on the increase in Scotland, Last week.gove-
ral seizures were made in the Orkneys. Amongst these.
were several malt seizures. Malt and still have been seized
in the district of Wick.

NORWEGIAN TRADE.—The scarcity of Norwegian birch,
timber threatens to send us back to die old American pipe;
staves for supplies of barrel wood. If we can believe report,
the Norwegian forests of suitable timber for barrel making
are becoming rapidly exhausted, and the price, delivered"
here, partly no doubt owing to higher freights paid; has risen,
during the current year from Bd. to is. 2d. per f00t.,---Nortla:i
British Hail.

. I
DEVONPORT, TUESDAY.—The Royal George, 120, con-
verted screw-ship, Captain Codrington, C. 8., arrived here
this afternoon to fill up her compliment, having less than
603, including marines and officers, on her books. t
The Reo. Mr. Hall, of Hull, is about to succeed' Mr..
Sherman, at Rev. Rowland Hill's Chapel.
There were two destructive th-p =n L.Aikluil on Tuesday
night_nno 1.23.0,vgate-street, and another at London-wall_
There was another collision on the Gieat Northern
railway this week ; but fortunately, in this also, no life
was sacrificed.

The hunting stud of 11 animals, belonging to Sir Cliflord
Constnble, was sold at Doncaster, this week for £1,418,
being £129 on the average. One horse brought £2lO.
MUNICIPAL HOSPITALITY.—His worship the mayor,
entertained upwards of fifty gentlemen at dinner, last eve-
ning, at the Town-hall. The consuls representinc, th
different foreign nations at this port were amongst th.
guests.
IRISH PRODUCE FONVLS.—The Belfast Mercury says
that, at the market of Lisburn on Tuesday, a pair of turkeys
was sold for 18s; geese brought 3s 6d to 5s each; and fowls
3s to 4s per pair. Immense pens of poultry purchased at
tho market were shipped by the steamers for Glasgow and, -
Liverpool. Commerce U.., muoh to the influence of steam,
but agriculture is no less indebted to the same ponor.
Taking everything into account, and examining, all the ad- „
vantages derived by cheap and rapid transit, the manufae- ,
turer of food is quite as much indebted to the steam-ship7,-
and the locomotive as the manugacturer of clothing. 4
THE STRIKES AND INTIMIDATION.— On Monday the
factory owners at Wigan threw open their mills for such =
of the operatives as would return at old prices, and 1,000, or
about a sixth of the whole; availed themselves of the oppor-
tunity. Many more would probably have returned to work,:
but trades' delegates, attended by a large crowd, were in the
streets at an early hour in the morning to intercept, per-- t
suade, and intimidate all they could, out'of going to work. w
The Messrs. Eccles obtained the greatest number of hands
(about 400), and 200 went in at Rylands. The othersl
were pretty equally disperseduus 1 various mills. The $.l
magistrates and police did all they could to protect the
hands in going to the mills, and this they also did again on
Tuesday and yesterday morning. On Monday and Tuesday
morning they found it necessary to appprehend several per-
sons for undue interference with persons going to work, and
for inciting to a breach of the peace. The system of -
intimidation does not apply to those alone who go to
work at old prices, but in other towns it applies to persons
refusing or neglecting to subscribe funds to the .Preston and
other strikes. At Stockport, on Monday, and at Ashton
on the same day, men were brought before the magistrates •
for acts of intimidation, and there is no doubt that a wide- •
spread system of tyranny prevails throughout the whole
manufacturing districts to extort money from the operatives .
in work at the mills to support those out of employment Id
through the strikes. The people complain of it loudly at
the shops where they buy their provisions, and it is talke&sa
of every where.-27M Timm