The Express.
London, England, 1850-03-01 00:00:00

TIIE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 1, 1850.

soloist's's. Oilers, am mere worthy than the English
artissae.llriog is &deem, the Limited States, mid Francs,
amid aot be taxed without Ha* moweent ; sad why should
not the artisan class of Easlead Mplarad ea a similar
footing ? (Hear.) The promat system ammearily placed
tarp messes of the people fa a condition which elicited de.
contest. Was it aoterkleat that the time mu come when

these messes would judge id their unjust treatment, and
what dependence in limas ademgeemsald be imposed on luau
men, particular') it they fiseenall, as they did. a considerable
portion of the able-bodied paaialatien ? (Hear, bear.) It
be asked anything wiresnearthe let him be reproached
therewith, but be contended that his request was a just one,
and that this was an oppoirlame ties, for taking up the
question and dealing with It properly. He called
upon boo. members to look at the papers on the table
purporting to be the correspondence on the affairs of the
Cape of coed Hope. He highly approved of the conduct of
ha Majesty's g nnnnn meat al respected their decision on the
30th of lama., last. The paper ke held in his band bore
the date of the 30th of Jannery, and it consisted of a
minute of her Majesty in council, and was the Chaster
of the Bill of Rights to the Cohn, of the Cape
of Gocd Hope. It purported to give to every Eng-
lishman, wherever he should settle, all the privileges
of the free institutions of this country. (Hear.) Let toe
house not be alarmed, then, at reposing confidence in Eng-
lishmen at home when her Majesty's ministers had already
placed confider-es in the mixed population of the Cape of
Good !lope. (Cneen.) He thought a fact like this ought to lit.
abuse the minds of hon. gentlemen who might be afraid of
increasing the number of elscton at home, and that when
he found the present government placing confidence in
mixed populations abroad he bad a right to demand the ex-
tension of reform and the granting of the privilege* of Eng-
land to the people of this country at home. (Louo cheers.)
Was an Englishman to be denied bete that which he &Ott
e•joy at the C .pe of Good Hope? (Hear, hear.) Were
the English leas intelligent, lees diligent, less moral, less
worthy of the right of any yin! legislstive powers than the
inhabitants of a' yof the colonies? (Hese, bear.) And if
not, why was not the privilege conceded? Another part
fas motion required a more equal distribution of the poou•
lation according to number.. The government had agreed
to erant electeral districts to the Cape, and those 'lee:teal
districts were to return the members of parliament.
He did not ask them to form electoral districts ; but if they

formed a group of two, three, four, or five birouchs. the;
would make the representation mare proportionate.
It was quite easy to do this. There was no dial.
culty in forming the poor-law unions, most of them con-
sisting of several parishes, and which varied is extent
actor •ing to the population, and they might as easily form
such electoral districts as he had referred to. At the
Cape awl at other places there were to be electoral districts.
Her Maj.sty's ministers proposed that there should be three
estates in each colony— the governor, the legislantre council,
and the repriscntattre es.entbly. He supported the same
princi;le in this country : he wished to have the Qn• en, the
lords, end the commons • hut he wished that such power
shoal I be srparate and distinct. He wished not to destroy
the constitution ; he wished to make it more popelvr, and
that the which purported to be the House of Coalmen'
should be so in reality, and that the mewbau of
it should not be, as in too many caste they were,
' mere nominees of peen—(hear, hear)—not of peers
I only, but of the aristocratic ChM. Previous to the 11..brm
Rd! scats is that hems were sold like fish in the market.

He wished he could say that was not so now. He h.d be-
fore him 'trona proof—he did not like to charge my indi-
vidual—but his belief was, that at that moment there were
miry in that house who owed their Hata to money pal
to individuals to secure their election, and that was as
much boruughmongering as the old syatemwu. It was

to put an end to this system bat be sought to
introduce this bffi. And then with regard to the
duration of parliaments, he thought that three
years was long enough. He did not think that one
year would afford a' sufficient acquaintance with hueiness.
At one time he W 4 of opinion that frequent parliaments
were better, and be agreed with Major Cartwright, who was
for annual parliaments ; but on mature consideration he
should be satisfied with triennial parliaments. There wee
'anther point, as to the payment of members. After long
consideration he had co re to the opinion that they
got little disinterested es-vice, and that was the reason
why he bad ot.en cbjetted to any responsible office
being put upon any one without pay. He was, therefore,
perfectly consistent in saying that any person who undertook
' any duty, if he did that duty honestly and fairly, ought to
be paid tar it. He should be satisfied if what was to be ac-
corded to the colonies ea to the duration of the assembly, the
constitution of the assembly, and the payment of members,
should be accorded to Ragland, except that he did not agree
as to 'he dura.ion of the as irately, as it was to he in some
cases five years or ten years. Here they had precedents;
they hail Ireland and the colonies. 73 those branches of the
empire that justice was about to be extended ashich he
asked for Encland and Scotland. Why not put all on the
MUM footing? The hon. member then referred to the srech
of Lord J. Russell oa the Sts laid., in introduc;ast the colo-
nial government—a speech which, be said, he had listened
to with more pleasure than any i,etek delivered by the
noble lord since that in which be introduced the Refarm
Bill; for in it tho noble Led wrestled those sentiarcnts
which he (Mr. home) knew ho entertained, and which
came oat row and then in spi'e of himself, though
at lane intervals. In that speech the noble lord
said —" There was another and a most remarkable

characteristic attending these col inies, and this was, that
wherever Englishmen have been sent or have awn to
settle, they have carried with theta the freedom and the
institution of the mother country. Alter supporting his
argument, by adducing copious proofs that the most eminent
a:.thoritit uptn constitutional and political questions had
admittid the principles upon which his measure was
founded, Mr. ILime remarked upon the legal tomplieations
involved in our present electoral system, which ad-
mitted no lets than eighty five varieties of quali-
fication. (Hear.) He would put an end to them all,
and have one single qualification, the being rated to the raiiel
of the poor. And now as to the intelligence of the pcopl..
The common observation had been, " educate the people
first ;" but he said the best mode of teaching the people was
by civirg them enmething wor:h living for. A gen Leman
in Scotland, Mr. Henderson, advertised that he would give
premiums for the three best essays on the observance of the
Sabbath, to be written by some of the working chives. In
lets than three months he received ne fewer than 11145

mayo. Three of them Mr. Parkes had published. Ile
had read them, and they showed great talent. One of them
was by • journeyman pricter, another by a jourreyman
shoemaker, and the other by a journeyman machinist.
These were samples of the intelligence of the working
clam.. With such proofs of intelligence, could it be borne
that men capable of writing such essays were to be denied
the franchise ? Were bricks to be preferred to brains ? (A
laugh.) As Franklin said, was • man to have a vote as
bag as his jack as was alive, and, as soon as his jackass was
dead, was he to low his vote ? (Cheers and laughter) At
present, if a man occupied a house of a certain Tilos he had
• vote ; but, if he left the house, he lost his vote. What
In absurd state of things ! Ile now came to the inequality
el the representation. He contrasted the narrow constitu-
encies of certain boroughs with the vast electoral bodies d
the great (ides, who were yet endowed with no larger share
of led eence in the legislature. Followii.g this anomalous
condition of things through its immediate consequences, the
hon. member, after enforcing the ri,tht of the people to have
a legislature which should truly represent their opinions
and watch over their interest, concluded by submitting to
the house the motion of which he had given notice, for leave
to bring is " A bill to amend the national representation
by extending the elective franchise, so that every man of
full age, and not subject to any mental or legal diashility,
who shall have been the resident occupier of • house, or pert
of a house as a lodger, for 12 months, and shall have been
dull rated to the poor of that parish for that time, shall be
registered as an elector, and be entitled to vote for a repre-
sentative is parliament. Alto, by enacting that votes shall
be taken by ballot, that the duration of parliaments shell
not exceed three years, and that the proportion of representa-
tives be mule mere consistent with the amount of population
and property." (Hear, hear.) To this he wished to add a
clause taking away the property geslifiention of member,
to which he connived government could not object, as they
had adopted the principle in reference to three-fourths of
the colonies. (Cheers.)
Sir J. WALMSLEY, in rising to second the motion, said
It will be for hon. gentlemen who intend to vote against the
present motion to prove, that of all who contribute to the
support of the stet:, there should he less than one million
who are worthy to possess the elective franchise, or are
capable of using it with benefit to theensilves and to the in-
terests of the country. (Hear, bear.) Until the proof is
before me I must assert, that, as a general rule, the unen-
franchised masses of this country are worthy of the political
rights which they claim, and are prepared to exercise them
in a matinee compatible with the interests we all desire to
guard. (Cheers.) I must be permitted to go one step further,
and to say, that whatever may be the result of this debate,
it will not he sale much longer to delay the
act of justice which is now sought, and could we be assured
of safety, the time is fast approaching when the very intelli-
gence of the millions of this country will make legislation
on this question absolutely imperative. (Ch. ere.) When
the noble lord the member for the City of London had
charge of the Reform Bill, he referred constantly to the nu-
merous evils and abuses of the then state of the representa-
tion. I have yet to learn that any one of those evils and
abuses, then so powerfully depicted, is absent from our pea-
sant representative system. (Hear, hear.) Did the noble
lord inveigh against nomination boroughs ? We point hies
to a list of boroughs, sending members to this house, all
of them notorinusly wider the influence of parties,
who claim, and do not fail to use, the power
of saying who those members shall be. (heer,
hear.) hid the noble lord support his measures of reform
by appealing to the practice of bribery and corruption at
elections, we (point him to the blue books accumulated at
the commencement of every parliament from that time to
hie present. (Hear, hear.) On the other hand, did the
noble lord argue the propriety and justice of giving the fem.
chiles to populous towns and districts, 1 will venture to ask
him whether the results have not justified his arguments,
and whether the fact of so few petitions having been w-
onted from those enfranchised constituencies is not a good
reason in support of a further extenainn of the electoral
power, and the enlargement of the constituencies through-
out the United Kingdom. (Hem., hear.) 1 will ink the
noble lord, too, whether the constituencies created by his
bill of 1832 have net made some valuable contributicgis to
this house ? (Hear, hear.) Possibly hon. gentlemen oppo-
site may be disposed to quistion this ; but e
think those who occupy seats on these benches
will allow that the deliberations in this house upon the most
important measures which have been pissed du ring the last
eighteen yeasts have been gristly aided by thr, experience,
the judgment, and tho Firm's?w of those -gm, owe their
parliamentary existence to the bill of the note le lord. (Hear,
hear.) Is It then unreasonable to supposo 'that a new mea-
sure of reform, as generally demanded now as was that to
Wank 1 have rotund, would not lAid to %imam &Quilt., sad,

tly, 'assonant improvemenb in the °Destitution
to
how? (Hear. bear.) The people of this great
essatsy are growinghy alive to the imperious necessity of re-
modelling our system of representaticm.• Vast numbers
see deeply isprossed with a sense of the wrong that
de done to them by the denial el any treks in
the election of these to whose laws they must
yield obedience, and whose tazation, however excessive,
they are compelled to bear. This sense of injury will be
deepened by delay ; and it would therefore be bat following
the dictates of prudence to make timely concessions. (Hear,
hear.) Of those who possess the franchise there are many
who deeply sympathies with their unprinlegi d fellow
subjects, and are content so longer to enjoy a political dis-
tinction of which others are as capable and as deserving as
then selves. (Hear, bear.) I admit there are others who
wculd be content with the system ea It is, if they could see
those pnirical results which they deem themselves entitled
to expect in the legislation of this house. But the votes of
this house upon quesions in which these climes take a deep
interest are generally so moth at variance with what the con-
dition, the wants, and the destinies of this country demand,
that they are fast becoming favourable to the throwing
open the portal' of the constitution to the people
at large, as the only means U the attainment
of that pr per administration of affairs which the
desire to see naked. (Hear, hear.) Fee myself I
think it is not only expedient, but jest that her Majesty's
intelligent and attached subjects sheuld poises. something
more than the privilege of paying the taxes which it pleases
this house to impose. (Hear, hear) I ask, therefore, fur
the extension of the auttrage as a debt due to those valuable
portions of our population, and agree with those who seek
the extension of the stamp° sea means to amend. The pro-
ceeding' of the loot two sessions have convinced the people,
the electors not lees than the non.elector,, that no materiel
alleviation of the national burdens can be expected from this
house seat present constituted. Bhsll it be said that in this
country alone, Englishmen are unworthy of the rights of
citizenship? Wh we track them, es emigrants to dis-
tant regions,. we find them fully capable of discharging not
only the social, but ell the political duties. (Hear, hear.)
In the United States, they are at once admitted without
queoion, and almost without probation, to the immunities
and functions of citizens. Who are those who have carried
our civilisation, our arts, and our commerce to fore'gn
lands? Who are those who have peopled the wilderneas—
have tilled the soil, and raised town, and cities in the remote
dependencies of the British crown, and ere now asking and
obtaining representative and responsible government? Are
they not, the majority of them, men who is their native
land and at the seat of empire are toasted as unworthy to
have a vote for the return of membsn to this house ?
(Hear, hear.) Shall it be said to the honest artisan of this
country that while here they shell be excluded from the
franchise, but that it they ay.!' quit these stucco they shell
find it at the Cape, in the Canada', or in Australia ?
(Cheers.) When we find the thousands of our colonial
brethren extorting eelfgovernment from the bands of the
Btitleh legislature, shall it be said it is denied to the million
at home ? The noble lord has announced emphatic illy that it
is not the intuition of the government to bring forward
any measure for an extension of the franchise during the
present 'onion. lam glad the noble lord has been discreet
enough to say only thjs ec.eion, for I tell him that which he
already knows, that It is but a question of time. (Cheers.)
He may be sceptics/ as to the public feeling upon this mat-
ter; but the result of a somewhat extended observation has
led me to the conclusion that there is as large an amount of
unanimity upon this question as was ever known to be mani-
fested upon any other. If the noble lord require additional
evidence of the theirs of the people for parliamentary Worm
I think I may premise him that he will have it—l think I I
may promise the noble lord more, that whenever he shall
feel disposed to venture upon a proposal to admit those to
the poseesion of the franchise who ore worthy of the boon,
whatever may be she scantiness of the support
given to him by the members of this house he will be sus-
tained by the great body or the people, and by them be ena-
bled to retain that high position which as the author of such
a measure he would deserve to fill (Cheers.) But, what.
ever may be the inclinations of her Majesty's government or
the feelings of thin house I rut satisfied the time is not dis-
tant when tae pe opt* will speak with a voice which no mi-
nister, and no parliament will be able to disregard. (Hear.)
It will be an omnipotent voice, because it wi.l be the voice
of justice and of reason uttered in the spirit of loyalty and
truth. (Loud cheers.) It will be the voice of a people
whose intelligence, whine industry, and whose skill are the
glory at once of this par'nt country and of every region
over which the sceptre of her Majesty is swayed. (Hear,
beer.) It will be the voice of a people who
Lave d imperishable monuments of their piety,
their virtue and their patriotism, and when that
voice shall have been heard, answered, cud

1 believe the time wi'l have 'arrived (fir a rt.4w end
• better slat, of things—a time whey there will be a consi-
derate attenti-os to the just irate-eats of el classes, without
partiality eel without distinction. Thanking the house fur
their kind indulgence, I leave this great question to their
judgment, and that of an enlightened country. Mr. Hume,
said Sir Joshua, in conclusion, had shuwn how unequally
the population were represented; he would add some sta-
tistics, showing hew unequally property was represented.
For this purpose he quoted from the s ork of Mr. A. Mat key
some calculations, pr ivinz that while half the members of
that house represented an aggregate of between six cad
seven millions, the other half represented not lesa than 78
millions.
The question having been put,
- - - - - • -

Sir G. GREY said that whatever might bt the opinion of
the house with regard to the merits of the motion submitted
to it, he thought kis hon. friend was entitled to the credit of
consistency is bringing it forward now as he had done on
former occasions. He believed that his hon. friend and the
hon. gentleman who see ,niled the motion in a manner whisk
rendered any apology from him unnecessary—(hear, hear)—
and with a spirit and ability which reflected great credit
upon him—(hear, hear)—were both actuated by the single
desire of promoting what they believed to be the nest interests
of the country, and of adding strength and permanency to
i•s institutions. (Hear, hear.) Differing, however, from
them as to the results of the ramose which had been she-
dowed forth rather than distinctly brought before them, he
felt hound now, as on former occasions, not to consent to the
motion, but to meet it with a decided negative. (Hear )
The motion submitted by the hon. gentleman was nearly
ider.tical with the one he proposed last year. But as the
question was not whether there should be any extension of
the suffrage—as it was not oae relating to the finality or de.
tails of the Reform Bill—u it was n- t the question whether
the terms and conditions on which the elective
franchise was to be exercised should be reconsidered
with a view to its enlarg'ment, he would not refer to these
points, or expreu any opinion upon them. Ile was anxious
to state this, lest he should be considered now or at any
future time, as opposed to every and any consideration of
the suffrage with a view to its extension—that extension
being consistent with the constitution as settled at the time
of the Reform Bill. (lieu, hear.) The qu.ation now was
whether t►ey would entertain a proposition more extersive
and sweeping in its effects and intention than was adopted
by parliamentafter a severe struggle in both houses and in the
country, in 1839. His hon. friend ogled on them to remodel
the whole constitution of that house, and to alter the basis
on which the whole fabric of the electoral system rested.
His hon. friend said that he was an advocate tor universal
suffrage, and that all persons who paid taxes eh ould be pug-
teased of the franchise ; bat he afterwards qualified that by
saying that taxation and representation should g•o together
as far as was consistent with peeper checks against abuses.
In the proposition to qualified he (Sir G. Grey) agreed;
for it was the oasis on which the constitution was
formed, and on which the electoral system rested.
His objection to tne proposition et has honourable
!rend was that he asked them to remove: these checks, and to
admit such a large and indefinite extension of the suffrage
as would be inconsistent with efficient checks against &bust a.
In proposing " that every man of full are and not subject
to any mental or legal :disability, who shall have been the
nt occupier of a house, or part of a house Si a lodger,
for 12 months, and shall ha.e been duly rated to the poor of
the parish for that time, shall be regist, red as au elector and
be entitled to vote for a representative in parliament," he took
away what had hitherto been considered tho indispensable
conuitinn of exercising the elective franchise—the possession
of some property or other. (Hear.) At least the terms
of his motion did not imply the possession of any property
in the sense in which that word was generally used, fur he
proposed that any lodger who claimed to be rated to the
poor, although he paid no rate, or although it had been
paid by the landlcrd for him, should be entitled to the
franchise. An owner of a house might therefore till it
with lodgers who claimed to be rated, and though they
never paid any rate at all, they would he entitled to HI.
Tote without being subject to any test of the postetsien of
any sort of property. Such a propoeitien is equivalent to
one which proposed no restriction at all,sueh as w. aedvocitted
by the hon. and learned member for Nottingham. The
hon. gentleman said that in former timer such was the
system in many parts of the country. But the scot and lot
franchise to which be alluded, was combined with eel i.c
evidence of property in the power to pay. The hon.
gentleman was not quite correct in his estimate of the pre-
sent number of voters its this country. Ile said that the
numh,•rs of voters for the whole United Kingdom, including
Ireland, was 800,000.
Mr. HUME—Striking off the double votes.
Sir G. GREY—The last returns laid before parliament
showed that the number for Great Britain clone was 911,0.10
out of an adult male population of 4.508,0,1 d. His hots.
friend Asia that the constituency weuld be incre sea to
9,600,000 if they took the numb rof ints ihite.l houses. But
he apprehend. d that some of these houses were in double
occupation, end many of them were occupied by Canal,.
who paid taxes both direct and indirect. Whether his hon.
friend would fixttad the franchise to females he did not
know.

Mr. have no °Nation. (Rear, hear, and
laughter.)
Sir G. GREY—Ilia hon. fricn.l would then make that a
part of the nest reform bill. (Laughter.)
Mr. HUME—It is done in Greenock. (Langhttr.)
Sir G. GREY did not think that the frerchise was era rc i‘ed
by the ladies of Greenock, for the election of memtors to
parliament; but he certainly did net se- how they could
be justly excluded from that fight under the plata of the
boa. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) If ho had examined the
number with care, he did not think be would
find any inch dinproportira u ho stated between
the increase of population and the increase of the electoral
body. On the contrary, a very rapid increase bad taten
place in some dietricts. Take the two divisions of Lanca-
shire. for ex .mpb•. The number of voters in 1833 inns
161,32; in 1837, 27,445; and in 1815, the date of the last
return, the number was 3.5,476. which is more than double
the number in 1833. Ia the Writ Riding of Yorkshire the
number of voters in 1833 wee 18,a56; in 1837, 29.078; and
in 1816 it was 30,165. The number of electors in Liverpool
in PO3 wee 11;200; in 1837, 13,819; in 1846, 17,016. In
Matn.heiter 019 number 81 *Wan In 1833 wal 0,703;

1887, 11,185; in 1846,14,841. There was no analogy between
this country and its colonies. But It the analogy was to
hold good in ores Melanin, it should hold good in all; sad as
they were to have an elective second chamber in the Cape,
the hba. gentleman should be prepared to substitute for •
hereditary House of Lords a second elective chamber.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME-1 have not the least objection. (.! Hear,"
and laughter.)
Sir G. OBEY—Hishon. friend was certainly veryopen and
candid, and it they adopted his proposition they would do so
with their eyes open; for his hon. frisad said that he had no
objection to universal suffrage, that be had no objection to
@Mending the elective franchise to women, and that he had
no cbjection to an elective House of Lords. (Hear. hear.)
Now, however just the title of his hon. friend to the confi-
dence of the people of this country, he did not think he
would be a safe guide for them in that house. (Hear, hear.)
He thought it better to stand by the ancient constitution of
the kingdom, and the principles on which it was bssee, than
adopt the new system on which his hon. friend would place
it. (Hear, hear.) He would not allude to the question of
the ballot or et triennial parliaments, because his hon. friend
had passed them over lightly, and as they were to be made
subjects for special motions he would reserve any obser-
vations he had to make till they came in that shape before
the house. He would :bendy observe that the bon. gentle-
man had not used any argument to reverse the decision
which the house had come to last year respecting triennial
parliaments. He did not clearly understand the meaning
end intentions of the hen. gentleman when he said that
he wished to make the proportion of representatives more
consistent with the amount of population and property. lie
would only say that he thought any system which would
divide the country into equal electoral districts—which
required that an equal number of the populatior. should con-
cur in returning an equal number of members—would
destroy one of the safeguards of the constitution, which
consisted in havine the varied iuteresta of the country fairly
represented in parliament, which it would be impossible to
strain under the system of electoral districts. (Hear.) lie
did not mean to deny that great injustice might be found in
some cases with regard to the number of members returned
from different parts of the country, not only as regarded
population, but as regar ted property in connexion wi h
population. Bat if they adopted the system of equal
electoral districts, they must be premed for ore of these
results—either Uey must increase the number of represen-
tetives in that house to such an extent as would render it
inconvenient, it not impossible, for it to transact the
business of the country, or they must alter the balance of
interests now represented in that house, and transfer to the
metropolis and other large districts, the representatives of
whom they would deprive smaller and less wealloy
places. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the boom would
refuse to allow his hon. friend to lay his bill on the table of
the house, fur the principle on witch it was based would
reader the constitution purely democratic, whilst they bed
only a limited monarchy and a House of Lords that was acted
upon by public opinion and partook of the same feelings
and interests as the other portions of the community,
which exercised its due shore, and no more than in due
share now of authsrity—("Oa!")—hut this house would
exercise more than its due share under the purely demo.
critic constitution which this measure would inaueurate—
a share which wetilil be inconsistent with the working of
the constitution as it now existed. He concerted with the
hon. gentlemaa in being thankful for living und. r a conati-
tutiou of tee en, Lords, anti Commons ; but thinking that
his motion would be dangerous to that constitution he
asked the house to oppose and reject it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR promised to vote for the motion, but
still avowed himself a champion of the charter. Ile vin-
dicated himself anal his party with great mew from the
charge of having endangered lately or in times past the
quiet of the country.
Mr. P. WOOD, after reading the motion of Mr. Hume of
that yr nine, as also the universal suffrage motion introduced
by Mr. F. O'Connor in the last session, to show that they
were essentielly different, pr iceeded to say that he supported
the motion of the hon. member for Montrose because it was
opposed to every principle contained in the measure of Mr.
O'Connor. (Hear, hear.) The motion of the hon. member
for Montrose wPI no abstract or theoretical one, but one
based on the rights and principles of the institutions of the
country. (Hear, hear.) lie thought it would be much
more satisfectory_to the house in general, as indeed it ieou'd
be to him (Mr. Wood), if the gm. rnment, instead of telling
the house what they did not approve of as reform, would tell
them what they did approve of—(hear, hem) ; and he
doubted not the house would be extremely glad if they
brought forward a reform motion, even though it did not go
near as far as the mtasuret hen before the house. He (Mr.
Wood) admitted that one of his reasons for supporting the
present measure was that the people mirht he protected from
filling into the views and notions of such gentlemen at the
hon. member for Nottingham. (Hem ) lie did not mean
to impute impropriety of motive to that hon. ceete min.
His verdict of him coincided with that pronounced in a court
of law on a recent occasion, where the hde member ap-
peared as suitor against a newspaper proprietor for having
seemed him of deluding the public. Tree jury in that case,
decided teat though the public was deluded, Mr. O'Connor
was personally honest; aid in the some way did he (Mr.
Wood) believe thtt whilst the hon. member politically de-
luded his followers he was personally honest. (Hear,
hear.) The motion of the hon. member for Montrose
widely differed from the abstracted theories of tie hon.
member for Nottinghamshire, who preached the doctrine
that " taxation without representation was tyranny, and
should be resisted: that the labourer should be the first
partaker of the fruits of his own labour," and such like
abstractions, which he (51r. Wood) repudiated, and with
which he was eisgusted. (Hear, hear.) Tue motion of the
hon. member for Montrose was consistent with constitutional
doctrine, and was the natural growth of their institution..
(Hear, hear) It was adapted to the habits of
the people, and to the laws under which they lived. The
principles of the hon. member for Montrose, embodied in his
motion of that evening, did not go to seek universel sang*,
but required that every man of age, end not morally or
iateliectually di. ntitled, possessing certain qualifications,
such as 12 months' residence and rating, should be entitled
to the franchise. (Hear, hear.) In fact that doctrine had
been tale down by a great constitutionel lawyer, Sir W.
Blackstone, who started on the same principles, and then
pointed his yealifi• ations. (liter, hear.) Things certainty
could not remain much longer in their present position. It
was must unreasonable that out of a population of 41 mil-
lions of male adults in this country, only 900,000 of them
should be entitled to the franchise, including the double
votes. (Hear, hear.) Would it be soil that the re-
maining 34 millions were unfit to exercise the frsrchise ?
(Hear, hear.) Or was it possible that the development
that had taken place since the passing of the Helena Act
would be counted as notning ? (near, hear.) Within the
eighteen years that had passed over since the passing of the
Reform Act there had been ere. ted 1,500 churches ; and he
(Mr. Wood) would be much ashamed of that fact if he
thought it had nothing to do with improvirg the habits of
the people. (Hear, hear.) They knew that great efforts
had been made in the direction rat education. The Nati .nel
Schools educated upwards of a million of children; ant toe
dissenters, in proportion, were not behind hand. And was
all that to go for nothing ? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND could not concur in the sentiment that
we should admire talent wherever it was found. He had a
contempt for talent as for other things according as it was
empl eyed, And whin the hon. and learned memba tor Oxford
had to see one class set against another, and observations

made calculated to separate them still more, his (Mr. Drum.
mond) answer was that a set of proteseimal agitators had
been going through the country maddening th 3
.pas3-iocs of
the people by falsely declaring that the landed aristocracy of
that house had used the power they possessed to injure trade
and manufacture and enhanc3 their own ketuues. The

were
byti ‘.l
:to: e i n any
cl;ar.re was false, and he could contradict it there where he
could be met if it were true. Wi:h re:wet to the motion
he was sorry the noble lord had not fulfilled the rumour
which they had heard, by extending his measure respecting
the Irish franchise to England. (Rear, hear.) Ile was
sorry, also, that the hon. mover, in the tint instariee, hal so
mixed up the franchise with other things, lee had he sopa-
rated them he (Mr. Drummond) might have given him Ms
individual support. The old whig dxtrine was that the so-
vereign ruled by the n grace of Btu hes's," now it ran " by
the grace of Manchester." For his part to hated equally
both sentiments. On tne whips the hun. member proceeded
to pour out fierce invectives, founded ou a summary of their
history for li:i0 years, and concluding with a declaration
that they had violated the constitution and betrayed the
crown—leaving the Queen's throne nothing mere than a
president's chair. In the measure now brought forward they
were hut reaping what they had sown. That measure
would be carried, and 'NOM alter that, for the career the
government had
.entered en would land them in a pure
di mocracy.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought the cmntry was Indebted to the
hon, member tor Montrose for bringing forward this =arida,
and that the tight hon. baronet opposite (Sir O. Grey) had
not dealt fairly with it. 'floe hon, member for Montrose
said that that house having, from time to time, sawed the
mode of 11 representation, and increased the number
of electors, to now asked it to do so, and the right
honourable gentleman's answer was, that they
.wculd
thereby overturn the constitution by miasieg
.a
chamber so entire:y representing the democratic
principle. The tight hon. gentleman
.d.ealt.with the prop°.
sitims much after the fashion of aMA pros lawyer. Re
did not inert it fairly, hut heat round it, cavilled and carped
at it. °lsar, hear) lle said it was opposed to the Eng-
lish constitution. N isv what was that? kr he (Mr. 100.
buck) hsd searched altar it for many years without being
able to lied it. Ile had seen a most remarkable instance of
a direct change hang made in our system of vpresents,
(ion by the noble lord who sat li.aide the right hon.
ecidlerugn, and he recullecte I that at the time it was charged
against him that he was istrodwing a now priesciple, by
giving the franchise to 101. houteltelders, a tting wh dly
unknown to the constitution of the calvary. Ile cool 1 nit
understand the principle of 13:s hon. friend flat represents.
lion and taxation should go teat ths r. Thvy never hod gone
and never 'a wild go together.; Ilia tr.enthned.iteecrti,„:o.i,hing
to alter the representation by extendiAg
fran-
chise was, that. there wee a :a.ite hall of our feßovr country-
men who fancied themselves agge.oreg because they were
not admitted to the exercise 4 that franchise. In 1830
that au
raeur4,ertednspiolnettnetthite.
that cla-s was largo and. vivre powiriul than new.
The people, in
extolv'ethedm
15r17,atete. the working class, a hail coy Tell
/'.upe for from an unreformed pubs-
otameunt of taxation which was supposed
greatmsofranchise
whichetnhht.neta
st,hi,euterwnTe
interest
ortueili;dsna!
antry. lie did not think that the burthens
way remarkable, and would go
to burthen this co
that he coisidered that they were mush
lighter thra in most countries. It was said that
the hou'a3 represented the varied interests of the
counts:, and the word democracy wits used. Now
I ha washed to know what that meant. Although he
i (Mx. lto:bu.k) admitted that the v ti.sl inters as of the
I ' COantr7 were hutiractly rcptesentcd, ha dallied that

representeeL He ould ask t
they were directly
Inn
hiturwcalf
aßteththrthal:llll
had they that confidence
labouring classes, to allow them to vote for rep salted
titres in that house. lie would ask them was it"enton•-•
much to have the right hon. gentleman (S r O. Orsyj ne—
ap and promise contusion worse than confounded
should only allow an increase in the amount of enligb °led'
n
they toted for a representative in parliament, Did-
right
h °ED
a;
hest that ffitwhaahato tsdhheeboyuyi wire ihhree"character
intelligent?
i 114 hi,
Own
the
peep 6
-
Re would no doubt be the first to get up in his
pail an eulogiture on the labouring classes of thisPenttraal
The government were always ready to support the laubiter.
lag classes re far as eultieium on their intellig, ice
bat when they came to talk about giving them pnw, r, (hey
immediatelr became • frightened, (Cheers.) Re • hi;
Roebuck) was not • bit frightened( by ‘t);ii
class of his telloweountryreen ; he believed the
to be a sober, wellinfortned, and Industrie
race. They were rot people like those aernss the water_
their feelings wire not to be e reit. by the same meant,
They had a regard to the decision of the m • •
loot, • they
yielded to such decision when it w:s Properly pronou'e
•
end they did not take to fighting a. coon en they fectuilt
themselves in • minority. Whom did they meas. it ssnd
Naked, by the labouring population ? Lodgers'
deed, said the right honourable gentleman (Si,
Grey). But what was the propusifion the crr-,
it was this—that mesa, to be coemelered entitled to a we,
should be firer rt aliuthnatatihnetesdhubnykerlaime ek.,be,wiangsh,umneonauyeoidedth.er
mirne, and should have bad a dwedire in a house for a
year either as lodgers or occupiers. He wer.t further that
that: it was necessary thgt the voter should have some die.
Ungahhing mark, i
mu; that was to he done by rlcistration. And I e
went further, by saying that he would have co vagabonds—
that meant, men without any settled place of reddence—
trusted with a vote. lie would have all wire"
regist• red and rated for the poor. One objection
which the enemies to universal suffrage had
constantly befure their eyes arose Irom their fancying the,
this labouring claw, when allowed to vote, would have a
preponderance in the House of Commons on account of
their preponderance in the sate, aid would cuns•qu thy do
away with tee Rouse of I; rue and the Queen. Th:s
tion gave occasion to loy..lry everywhere. The light hon.
gentleman talLed of the I (outing population, and he sho,il
like to ask him wheth, r ne came within thet eateirore. Its
should like to hi sz the hon. member for Nottingham ex-
plain what the labouring population were. \Vu the hot.
member fey Oxford to be considered a labouring loath when
it was known that he i.b need all day and the greater port
of the night ? Was Lot he a levouring man ? And was it
not like the mode in which the whole of this country was
made up, whose diatinetio-4 wire r. presented by a shade
drawn moo a piece of paper, which h:gen wi'h one colour
and eLdrel with another, in such a msnuer a. one could not
tell where ore began and the 0t..,r rt:ded ? They may draw
such • line, Intoning with the p,,,re awl lowest labourer,
and going gradually up to the tig...-st labourer
who eat in that house, in the shape of the 5. lord (Lord
J. Russell). (Laughter.) Who could 5:17 weer. the Brain
commenced and where they ecded ? lie intr. ated tr.e house
and the noble lord opposite especially :0 toe c refill how
they resisted the desires of those who were 1,07, honestly,
and justly entitled to the privileges they w yea, as ':y con-
ceding them in time, the country would to: be subjected to
a dangerous revolution. (Chet tr.)
Lord J. RUSSELL vindicated the passage of the P, forms
Bill from the elienges laid by Mr. Drummond. The hon.
member bad " invented a motive" f.l. their conduct, std
untruly asserted that the intended merely to wreak rm.
ges..ce up in the tory party, who had kept them so long out of
power. Himself and his colleagues of teat till had for yens
brought forward annual motions for ref rot, and hod adv•-
cited its principles in days when reformers were few and
calumented. The charge, he declared, did credit to the
invention of the member for Surrey. Lard Jata
Russell then went on to say as fellows. Tee
proposition made tonight begins by stating that every
person, though he may or may not pay rates or taxes, yet if
he is a lodger in a house, that b t should have a right of
voting for a member of par,..intent. It appears to ea.• in
the first instance, if the hon. gentleman's object was c.erre.2.
out by an act of parliament, it would be ...pea to
innumerable Dead.. West would prevent any num', rsf
persons being placed on the regi,ter as rated, though they
hod no right whatever to be there ? Suppose ttere was a
house with six or seven lodgers in it. The landleol was
rated, and every one else nat. The lodgers had nothit t)
do with the rates; but by the present motion, they mig...t toe
all placed on the register upon their owu dement:: , • 3
rated, while there would be uo obligation on them
payto
It does sneer to me that this is as near stair:re :
the
as toy Ilan that does not profess to ba universal suirag, cot
rtes those
dteL still Thed eviolisebeC'tuYpon to
the the
hPosuYsaViir'd.
well in. (Hest.) Tne hon. gentleman him, If avows teat
he is in favour of the people's charter; be declares that he
is satl fied with its principles. In ell the pu'dic meetiii,,
which I bate seen any :count, the partisans of the Lon.
gentleman have associated with thou of the hon. member
for Nottingham (Mr. F. O'Connor), have declared that
they were in favour of t'-,e same obj<et, and av:wel that
they were w. eking for the rams end. I( :tit is FO, how
am I to distinguish the proposal of the 11. m. eec.i man
(Mr. florae), from that which the advocate: of tai, chimer
have made. The boo. and learn'.d member for Shstatl.i s
" why should you distrust the people • why should n.:
have full confidence in the whole body of the people, tel
permit them to vote at the elections fir members of psr..a-
rcent " (Hear, hear.) It does seem as if it were
ungenerous to say that I have not full confidence in tee
great body of he people, of whom the bon. and learned gen-
tleman says, that whenever they are praised on this s..i ci
the house that praise is sure to be echoed from the other. I
quite agree that their conduct as working men deserve
the prase given them, and that their gener 1 con-
duct is deserving of high commendati h:er•
but am I to argue from that conduct that u st oat
follow, if a suffrage amounting almost to universal luthage,
if the power of t lecting members of parliament were zivett
them, that their choice would be a wise one ? Ant I t , say
that because they ere deserving, the consequence wi.i be that
they will elect members cf parliament, in whom the ulti-
mate decision of all the great q leciocs relatitg to empire
is vested, who would discharge their duty in a mater to

pmars. for their country- the empire% is tla ruiing
of which this bows' is cal:el t) hear SJ great

s part? I must rattan fully 'ea e.r.lidly I believe-that
they would not. (Hear. hear.) I believe they would be
misled —(oh, oh)—and I have seen instat as Which ind..ee
me !o think so. I believe :hat men teting then that twenty
or thirty minions of taxes are annually raised f r the pay-
ment of the intense on a debt—that they were under La
obligation to pay it, and that these thirty co:1:,ons of talcs
might be taken away at once by repudiating the debt—l be.
licve that such men wou:d get followers and obtain a sea, in
the house. I believe that percale a ivoeating the
total repeal of the new poor-law, and return to the
old law, which had it not been •oo.eshed I think would have
led to a 504:1111ITTulittbri in this c .uotry, and .1.6..6:4 that
that measure would prove beneficial to the people ; I be-
lieve that persons such u these would gain the votes of those
varies of the working &asses who have hitherto not pos-
sessed the sutFrege. Such being my opinion I cannot agree
to the proposal of the hors. gentleman Hume), Ito

hon. gentleman the member or Oxford(Nlr. P. aloud) sus,
" You have brought forward a bill with respect to the LA
fraochise," and some other hon. gentlemen Cave said. " tau
have brought forward armature with respect to the wh of
Ireland, which contains principles not dissitui!ar :4 :hose
advocated by the hon. mem%)er ler Montrose. Wile. s.th
refried to Ireland, we have brought forward a 'ill wh,..h..1
it is passed in its present shape, will give votes to ab.nit
250,000 potions out of a population of two milieu of mare
adults; not avery,Atterent proportion from that wh.ch •4
adjudged by the present set, if anything the proportou
is rather less under that bill than the prvortion of
the population who have votes in England and W.1.3`4 U:1 Ur
the Retort's Act. (Hear.) If that is the cue, no pat..:.,1
can be drawn between it and the proposition now betore •`:e
house. Something h.s been said with respect to the C tre
Good Hope, and the measures .butt to be proposed t s : o
represent diem of that colony, but the represento:i
colony has cnly to deal with its local concerns. It ha,
the great imperial widens to discuss which n: to:
came be tore the Mouse of Commons of :to
Uni•ed Kingdom, and therefore the subject being :or:. a
different kind of repr. 'rotation is Po quir d.
Lion of of the hon. pattern on for hiving the right et s •
to 'wry tiger has been ably deserVord by Mr. J.,:ice '-
fourd on a former crossbars, when he said that this pr
made it a kind of select suffrage not for men 1111.:
who held houses. but for thew whom heusso ••
(Laughter.) Having made this change, the hocnri''.o
gentlemen (Mr. Hume) then goes on to tor .h•,t
alterations he would prop se in the e -ual•es sn.:
baroug's which au to ser d memb, re :o t. 4
house. With respeet to this question I must sir tootcho
hon. gentleman's explanation on this uon other oe:ast.,,
was very unsatisfactory. • oLoughter.) Ico rejoin:ire wo I
understand the proposal of the hon. member for Notttnem
(Mr. P. O'Connor) and the supporters of t`,.e ch it:, r.
1 htlievo the bon memh r for M , ,s.,:ed
in drawing up. That plan sus let tits country toe ttv.dca
into "loaf districts—lot every-tO,N,r or %0.. ;lib:A:awe
have a vote—and let that plan extend r the c.
Although I think that plan iujurieus. and less bk.:y to
produce a national representation than the I' ln at prest,d.
operation, I must say that it is drawn up wi h apporen:
equality and fairness ; but the hon. gentlenoar, the
ber for Montrose (Mr Ilume), and the hoc. geatleovn
seconl d tura, only state " here are a great number 0: • :A
bnroughs which have votes, while a number cf large 4.•`;l'.
possessong a much greater populat:oo. are entirely to v.
seated." If wo come to the inequality of the 14039 i 3t•
we still find that it exists elsewhero oleo. In drowx.:
ua
that act we endeavoured—preservirg ancient privileges v.':
pre preserving ancient Counties 41..ilwour—to give
foie representation to the whole, yet I ink when you come t.)
consider your representation according to sortie just rule.
,eft
will he obliged to consider the case off the mantic. as wi o
the boroughs. (Rear.) I do not understand Ire wt:
be fair to eaTo "here are 100,000 people collected togeth•J :3
a manufacturing town, who return only two member,. irk
that because there are 200,000 in an acricuhural entice
they do not deserve four members. If there is to
an equality, let us have it carried out. (•• liter,'
supporters of the proposal.) I will show the lion..:mto
the state of the case as it is at present. There is N. tun.: ',"
with 53,000 inhabitants, it seeds two members to par'...,'
meet while North Devonshire, with 170,000, cn:y
two members. Lt iccster has sffOotol inhabitants, sett
two members; while S •uth 11:vonshire, with 207.0.0
only the saute natiocr. Oldham loss 12(00 inbabi•aata ml
sends two members; while Darsetshirs, 5•5:,
no store. Wolverhampton, si ith a population of So k~wl
Bradford, with 31.000. send each two members:,
North Lineoinshire, with 17,),000, and South Lince•••• ••••••••
with 135,000 inhabitants, only Fend the unto
(Rear, bear.) If we are to consider inolutLact, ii 5‘ 4

lrom