The Express.
London, England, 1867-12-21 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 21, 1867.

Mr. Poland—How wee the statement about John Bull
received!

Witness—Oh, with great clapping and cheering. There
was a collection made then. Midvany went round on one
side of the hall, sad another party on the other. The
other was the man I have alluded to, but did not name.
The money was taken on plates, which were passed from
form to form. There was a vote of thanks moved to the
chairman, Mulvany taking the second chair. Alter the
vote of thanks had passed the people left the halL I
don't know how much was collected. I subscribed 6d.
The persons who were on the platform went into
Kavanigh's with the money. I have never seen either
O'Connor or the chairman before or since that time. On
the Tuesday after the meeting I went to a public-house at
John-street Golden-square, in company with Timothy
Desmond. About thirty ether men were present.
I saw all the prisoners there except William Dee-
mond. I don't know the name of the public-house. I
went there because Desmond told me the " Boss " was to
be there. By " Bus " I understood Head Centre. He was
to come from Manchester, but did not. I waited until
about ten. He then got a message, saying it was no use
waiting, that " Boss " could not come on any account.
They all seemed very much dimatinied. English said that
it could not be helped, and that something very extraor-
dinary must have kept him. I then left, leaving O'Keefe
and English in the house. We had been dui ern and
singing. Some timeafter this, about six weeks ago I contri-
bated to a raffia. I gave my money to Timothy Desmond.
It was 6d. The raffle on the card was for the benefit of a
widow and six children, but it was in reality for the pur-
pose of buying arms. I was told so.
Mr. Poland—Who told you so!
Witness—Timothy Desmond.
Examinatini continued—On Tuesday week, the 10th of
December, Timothy Desmond and the prisoner English
came to me where I was than living, in Pugh's-place. Des-
mond said he had brought Mr. English round with him
for the purpose of knowing about the cards and the money
that was owing for them. I had previously purchased
ten white cards and two green ones. The puce of the
former was sixpence each, and the green ones wee* a shil-
ling. I got these cards from Timothy Desmond, but Ithe
initials of Mr. English were on the back of each of them.
I got these cards three weeks before the Tuesday. I owed
the money for the cards, and 6s. that I had borrowed of
Timothy Desmond the clay we were out. I sold some of
the nude to different parties. The cards were to aid the
wives and families of the Manchester prisoners. There
was to be an address by "Clinton Hoey." These tickets
did not relate to the perfortnanoe at the Bower Theatre.
Desmond asked English if he was unified about my owing
the money for the cards. English said, " Yes, he
was satisfied; but you know the money is wanted
very badly now." I said I would pay the money
on the Friday night. Desmond then asked me if
I would go to Stacigate with him. I said I could not, ss I
was busy at the time. Desmond then asked Engliah
whether he would come down on the Friday, or whether
he should come down himself. English said, " No, I'll
come down, you can't." They then wished me "'Good
night," and we left.
Mr. Poland—Well, now, on the Friday, the 13th, did
Timothy Desmond come to you?
Witness—He did, sir.
Mr. Poland—About what time?

Witness—Between half-past 1 and 2 o'clock.
Mr. Poland—What did he say?
Witness—He came to the door and called out " Ahoy.'
msaid," Hallos, Tim, have you been muddling it thia even-
" He said, " No, I have been having a little drop."
He said his son Denny had gone off to sea that morning.
He asked my wife if she had seen anything of his wife.
She said, " No." I said to him, " You don't
mean to say that your wife Ilea hooked it,
Tim ?" He sald, " Yes, she has, and by the God that
made me she will never lay beside me again." My wife said, ,
" Don't be foolish,„ and he then said, •' Good bye," and,
kissed her, and said he was going to take • jump. He
then whispered to me. He told me the trick should be
done between half-past three and four, as Anne Justice
had found out the time for the prisoners to exercise in the
LaetHe said, "It must be done." I asked him what.
id, " Blow up the House of Detention, and when I
am gone, Jemmy, I don't expect you will see me any more
unless you do • corpse ; or if I am off and untreated, the
next place will be Millbank. O'Keefe will do the trick,
with Bill Desmond, Massey, Corridan, and Dulvany. So,
Jemmy, good bye, and pray for me when I am blasted into
eternity. He then squeezed my hand very hard, kissed
me, and then left.
Mr. Poland—What time was this!
Witness—Between half-pat one and two, and he said it
should be done between half put three and four.
Mr. Poland—How did he find out the time ?
Witness—He found it out by Justice going in with
Casey's dinner.
Mr. Poland—Was anything said about the money?
Witness—He said I was not to give any money to his
wife, but to give it to English, and if be did not come
down for it, to give it to no one only his daughter Polly.
Mr. Poland—Did your wife hear the conversation?
Witness—No, sir. She was present, but he whispered
all this to me.

Poland—Did the prisoner English come to you that
same day ?
Witness—He did, sir, at exactly five minutes past seven
o'clock. He seemed to be very excited, and said " For
God's sake, Jam, give me as much as you can, as I want
all I can get, to send some off." I asked him who, and he
said, " What, have you not beard!" I said, " No." Hs
said, "The House of Detention is blown bang up." I
asked him, " Did you see Desmond?" and he said he pro-
mimed to meet him in an hour, but he did not. !asked him,
" Will you see Timothy Desmond to-night ?" He said,
" No, I don't expect I shall." I then gave him 2s. I told
hun I could not give him any more, as I was rather slack.
He then said, " Jemmy, for God's ake get as much as you
can for me." I then left. He stayed with me seven or
eight minutes. I saw him again the following morning in
Tyler-street, Regent-street. I went in to bur the news-
paper. It was between eleven and half-past. knclish was
looking at the placard. I said, " Good morning, it ic." He
then seemed very excited, and said aloud, "
Mr. Poland—Was that on the placard?
Witness—Yee, sir.
Examination continued—He said, " We will burn the
whole of London before Christmas. That will be more
diabolical." I asked him, " Have you seen Desmond yet ?"
Mr. Poland—You mean Timothy Desmond?

Witness—Yee, sir. He said he had not seen him, and
said " Good bye." The same day (last Saturday) I went
to Bow-street. I met the prisoner O'Keefe in Bow-street
He was etandingoutaide the public-house with another man
who is not in custody. He ran over to me, and asked me
if I had seen English. I told him I had about eleven
o'clock and had left him in Carnaby-street. O'Keefe
said, "'Damn it, I bad an appointment to meet him."
O'Keefe then ran across the road and joined two men.
O'Keefe and three or four other men, not here now, one of
whom I know, ban to talk about the exploaion. I said
it was a bad job about the amount of damage done as re-
gards life, and that it was horrible to think of it. O'Keefe
said? " A:thing like that can't be done without a great
sacrifice." At that time the pnwner William Desmond
. came up and said to me, • Hallo. , Jemmy, what do you
think of that d--d fool!—she has come round to me
accusing me of saying that he was a coward." I asked
him, " Who? " He said, "Ted's wife." He said, " You
never heard me say it, did your I replied, "No."
Mr. Poland—Who's Ted's wife!

Witness—Timothy Desmond's ; we generally call him
Ted, sir.
Examination continued—l said, It's • bad job. William
Desmond said it serves him d—d well right. He had
no buainesa to be there at all, for we sent him back,
and told him to go home and have a sleep for an hour.
Then English came up, and Desmond then repeated the
words over again, asking me if I ever heard him call him
(Timothy Desmond) a coward. English then said, "It is
only a paltry thing." I then said, " I should not call him
• thing." Desmond said, " He's nothing else, or he would
not let his wile know as much as himself." English and
William Desmond said that Timothy Desmond had
no business there (meaning at the explosion), for
they had sent him back. I then left and went
home. On the Sunday I went to the French Horn
and saw Desmond, English, and Mulvany. They were in the
front bar. English was drunk. He asked Desmond to come
out, and asked him if be would go down with him. Desmond
said, "Yes." We all went outude—me, William Desmond
English, and three other men not in custody. I asked
Desmond where he was going. They said they were going
to the " Boss," to take back an answer to the message. The
Bose is in Hooper-street, Westminster. One of the men
then asked Desmond if he could not persuade English to
stop, as it was too late to go over. He said, "1 ou had
better do that ; foryou have more influence over him than
I have." Another then went up and stopped English in the
middle of Conduit-street, and persuaded him not to go
over. The other party then turned back towards the
French Horn in PoLumbetreet, and I and two others fol-
lowed. Desmond said, "If we were to be seen over there I
to-night in such a quiet street we should all be suspected."
English said, " I must try and he there by six in the
morning," and he then said, "The best thing we can
do im to settle Derby, Stanley, and Hardy." Desmond
said, " There would not be so much thought of
doing the trick with them by the public se there was over
the last affair." They then left English @tending in the road
and wished him good night. William Desmond and I then
went home. I left Desmond at his door in Cross-street,
Golden-squire. This was about half-peat eleven o'clock.
I saw Mulvany in the French Horn that night about
ten o'clock. Handed English a glee of grig. He
drank, sad handed it to Desmond, saying, " Here, come
drink." Last Monday I called upon Sergeant Cole, and
gave information. I knew he was • police-sergeant,
and knew he was very clever. I told him I wanted to
make a statement.

Mr. Poland here said he did not propose to go any
further today.
Sir Thomas Henry asked the prisoners if they wished to
ask any questions?
The prisoner Desmond laid (addressing witness)—Did
you eivne rt
the
tend
room where meeting
e lmeetingstwith
al:/ rSW real 7.a—I
have
been -

Desmond—Did you see me at the meeting when Father
O'Connor was speaking ? iio, I did not say I did.
Desmond—Who told you that Keefe and me were to do
the trick for Hardy and Stanley? Witneos—l have
already stated Desmond.
Prisoner—Oh, I never fired a pistol in my life. Did
you come to my place on Monday? Witness—l did.
Desmond—Did I not tell you that you might say what
you had to say before my wife? Witness—lon did.