The Express.
London, England, 1860-07-14 00:00:00

so happened that after Lord Elgin inserted the condition
of the Russian minister had been allowed to
=d
uarPekin and to enjoy the privilege which Lord
Elgin had claimed. The Chinese government did not object
to the Russian minister going to reside at the capital, and
farther he was received at Pekin with mat courtesy and
eassideration, and although he had rem there a great
many months the Emperor had not fallen, nur had he or
his ministers been degraded in the eyes of the people.
(Hear, hear.) It might be well that the Emperor of China
should know that there were other independent sovereigns
in the world—not his verde—who claimed an equal
right to send representatives to his court. He
(Lord John Russell) bad of ten spoken to Lord Elgin
on the subject, and he said that the question wan entirely
changed since the Russian minister bad been allowed to be-
come a resident at. Pekin, and that it was impossible for the
Chinese government to may that they would not grant the
same privilege to Great Britain which they had granted to
Russia. That being the case, Lord Elgin was ci opinion,
and so were all the members of the cabinet, that they
should insist upon demanding that a British minister should
raids at Pekin or have the option of doing so. There was
no intention by following that course to punish the
Chinese government. It should be remembered that
the treaty with Chins had received the special
sanction of the Emperor himself, and at a time when
the British government had a very small force in China.
He should therefore oppose the motion, in the first place
because it would be ifivuig instructions in contradiction to
those which her Majesty had already given; and, in the
second place, because he saw no MOOD for altering the in-
structions so given. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then negatived without a division, and
the house went into a

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY,

Yr. Yam= in the chair.

On the vote that the sum of 443,9601. be granted to her
Majesty for the repayment to the government of India of
advances on account of former expeditions to China,
A long discussion commenced, which reamed over a great
variety of topics relative to the policy of the peemt and
past wars with China and to the financial incident. of this
particular vote. In the course of the discussion,
Mr. ROEBUCK sad the hon. the member for
Karam gentleman
(Sir H. Willoughby) had dananded from the go-
vernment a balance-sheet. In that demand be (Mr. Roe-
buck) fully concurred, but there wee 0,01 another Tierra
he was anxious to put, namely, what we to be paned by
the war? (Hear, hear.) He wished to know se object
the government had in view, &ad what benefit they intended
to render to the country by the extraordinary expenditure
of blood and treasure which the contemplated war
involved ? (Hear, hear.) It had been hie fate
to sit on the benches opposite just beneath
the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he deli-
eared six able and eloquent speech upon the subject of a
war with China. The right hon. gentleman then fulmi-
nated against the then administration for undertaking a
Chinese war. He pointed out how vain were the ends that
were sought to be attained, and how mischievous were the
mean, that were adopted to attain them. But places bad
since changed, and opinions bad changed too—(hem, hear)
—and be now found the tight hon. gentleman supporting
the very vote which in 1857 he described as a dirrece to
the country. (Hear, hear.) The words of the right hon.
gentleman a speech were still ringing in his WI. He re-
collected turning round totbe right hon. gentlemen, perhaps
presumptuously, and expreadng to him his (Mr. Roebucks)
earnest admiration of the sentiments he had heard ex-
pressed. But little had he thought that it would be his fate
to sit opposite the right hon. gentleman and find him the mart
eloquent @urrata. of this most atrocious proceeding. In
1857 the right hon. gentlemen spoke with an eloquence so
startling and convincing, that there could be no mistake as
to his meaning, and none as to him feelings. He did not
attempt to conceal his meaning, or smother his feelings in •
multitude of words. Not a bit of it. On the contrary, the
speech of the right hon. gentleman was so plain, so succinct,
and so affecting, that the effect it bad produced upon the
mind of the country had remained until the present hour.
Indeed if he (Mr. Roebuck) required a strong argument
against a Chinese war, he bad only to go to the quiver of the
right hon. gentleman, in order to draw out the most effective
arrow that could be discharged. (Hear, hear.) Under these
circumstances, he wished to know ilowthat which wee ao very
immoral in 1857 became right and proper in 1860 ;
and why the right hon. gentleman now found himself an
advocate of measures which so very recently he had most
violently attacked? (Hear, hear.) He again asked if any
right hon. gentleman upon the Treasury bench could state
to the house and the country the object expected to be
gained by • war with China, rd what benefit would be de-
rived from the expenditure of blood end treasure—the end
of which no man could foresee—in the violation of every
principle of justice and morality? (Hear, hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he felt
no difficulty whatever—(lsughter)—though he felt • great
deal of pain in answering the challenge of the hon. gentle-
man. The hon. gentleman asked bow it was
,possible for
him (Mr. Gladstone) to have been so inconsistent
as to have objected to a war with China in 1857,
and to have been • supporter of • government which was
to carry on • war with China in IMO. The explanation
wee to be found, he apprehended, in this fact, that the
nature of the two wars was entirely distinct, and their
causes entirely different. (Hear, hear.) It might be that
the war in 1857 was right and the present war wrong, or
it might be that the present war was right,
and the war of 1857 wrong; or it might be
that both were right, or it might be that
both were wrong. (Laughter and cheer.) There
was thus, at all events, an abundant choice of alter-
natives. (Heir, hear.) With respect to the present war,
he hoped 1111 had never spoken of it in terms other than
those of the deepest regret and lamentation • but be con-
ceived that the steps which had been taken by Majesty's
government had been taken in conformity with their public
duty, and that their views on that subject had never been
challenged in that house. Although he had seen with the
greatest satisfaction that the how* was disposed to deplore
the occurrences that hail made this war • matter of neces-
sity, he thought, on the other hand, that the house had
generally acquiesced in that necessity. When he found
what had taken place at the mouth of the Peiho—though
he was not going to assume the functions of the Foreign
Minister—he thought the hon. and learned gentleman
would admit that it was their duty, in the interest
of our own country and of humanity at large, to send a
considerable force to China ; but at the same time it was
thew desire to make that force the bearer of • message offer-
ing terms of as moderate a character as was possible for us
toinsist upon. He (the right hon. gentleman) certainly did
not think that theterma which they had directed our agents
to prow could be excepted to on the score of their violence
or excess. (Hear, hear.) He had himself ventured to
remark upon what he deemed to be the rootof thesewars, for
he did not desire to dissemble or gloss over the evils which
they entailed by appeals to our national pride. He thought
it nght that the house should have a full view both of their
enormous cost and of their probable recurrence from
time to time, unless they adopted wise and prudent rules
for the guidance of all their transactions in the Fast, and
likewise of their social and political responsibilities, which
were the necessary consequences of these wars. (Hear,
hear.) He felt, therefore, that he had no reason to shrink
from answering the questions which had been put to him
that evening. With regard to that which had been asked
by the hon. member for Portsmouth—he was really not
able to state what had been the monthly disbursements of
the government on account of this war ; for it was entirely
beyond the power of the government to give Lim
any trustworthy information on the subject. It
would be • mere mockery and • delusion to at-
tempt to give any precise account ; but the govern-
ment had formed, from the means of information in their
possession, the best estimate they could of the probable ex-
penditure for the year. With regard to the statement of
the hon. end learned geatlemen the member for Sheffield,
that the looney had virtually been already spent, and that
they would require many more millions in order to defray
the expenditnre of the year, he knew of no facts to support
that observation, The whole matter was, however, so full
of uncertainty that it was impossible to form anything that
could properly be called an estimate. All that they could
do would be to state (if that were required), the
amount of the drafts that were made on account of
the treasury cheat in China upon the treasury at home; but
that would afford very imperfect information, because the
drafts did not on the face of them show how much was for
ordinary and how much fin extraordinary expenditure.
Mr. BRIGHT observed that the right hon. gentleman
had not answered the question respecting the balance be-
tas', the Exchequer and the Indian government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the amount admitted by the Indian government on account
of her Majesty's government between the years 18414-9 and
1868-9 was 281,376/. The charge at the end of last year
on account of the India military force in China was
, 82,5001. ; end there was • further liability on account
of the auvuentation of that force amounting to
85,0001. ; making the total of 443,000/. provided for is the
Chinese estimates now submitted to parliament. There
were some other accounts which had not yet been adjusted,
bat he did not believe that the balance payable an the one
side or the other would be large.
Mr. B. OSBORNE observed that the right bon. gentle-
man had omitted to answer the important question which
had been put to him by the member for Sheffield, viz.—
What was the object of this war? (Cheers.)
Mr. A. MILLS said that if the speech of the right hon.
gentleman were intended as an explanation, it had only
rendered the gaieties, more dark than it was before.
Lord J. MANNERS remarked that if the government
were really going
.to adopt wise and prudent rules in the
management of their intercourse with the East, these rules
ifina • salatery contrast to everything that bad guile
before. The right hon. gentleman bad presumed to lay
down • position which he ventured to ray the hoses had
never sanctioned—viz, that this war was being carried on
with their full assent. (Cheers.) He (the noble lord) alto.
gether demurred to that statement. This war had virtually
Lees commenced, not only without the consent el the
house, but without their knowledge. They were DOW asked
to pay • bill after the liability had been incurred, and they
were therefore in no position to resist the demand ; but, so
far as the debate that evening could be reganlod as any test
of the opinion of parliament, it was decidedly unfavounible.
It was • remarkable circumstance that up to that moment
no one, either on the government or oa any side of the
house, had risen to express say sympathy whatever with
the objects of the war, or to express any opinion on it, ex-
cept an earnest prayer and hope that it might be brought
to • termination with the utmost poesible speed, and with
the utmost consideration for the feelings of the Chinese.
(Cheers.) For his own part he (the noble lord) hoped that