The Express.
London, England, 1859-07-23 00:00:00

(Stamped ld. Additional.) [TWOPENCE.

colleges, end the edstatisa he the poor in the national
schools. The lastee's milieus were founded in 1845 and
opened in 1849, so they had been in operation 10 years, and
if they took the amount which hod been voted for them, and
compared it loth the number of gentlemen who had taken
their degree', It would appear that each graduate has coat the
country 1,5001. This wee no fault of the machinery
provided for the ma of toe colleges, professor", and
officers wee edearable, and the system was the best possible.
The number of officers wee 260, whereas the average en-
trant* of etudenis wee only 134 each yes,. There were a
number of scholarships, about 65, at the derposal of the stu-
dents, but the number of candidates seldom end
SOMetilan did not equal, the number of echo'arshiu to be
given. In the Queen's College, Cork, there was one eta-
dentshlp In the faculty of kw. Two years there was no
candidate, and in the other years only one. The Doen of
the 2'scnlly had recommended Its total abolition on the
ground that there were no student'. The principal
faculty, however, was that of iota. In the
College at Galway there were in 1860-51 26 ma-
dams to 24 scholarthips ; In 18,51.52, 15 student+ to 10
scholarships; and every year since there were more scholar-
ship than readouts. In considering the encores of the sys-
tem, the scholars ought to be felt out of the calculation, as
they had no index:aunt to attend. The success of the
Queen's University was not greater than that of the col-
leges. In 1853 only four gentlemen went up for Muster is
Aria examination. Each got a gold medal and a money ex-
hibition. In the live years of the colleges the num-
ber of professors and officers was 50 per cent. more
than that of student.. and the number of scholar-
ships also greater. Bat it wee not merely with
regard to numbers that the colleges were a failure; the insti-
tution of licensed boarding houses and the appcntment of
residence wee an important featnnerd the original
Diop
, yet that feature alto had entirely failed. The sys-
tem of education under the national hoard wee also a failare,
but in a different way. In the county of Cork slue them
were 65,000 children attending thus enhoelr, but with the
exception of 761, all were of one religion. The system most
soon fall from the opposition in the country it not previously
overthrown by a vote of the house. The catholic church
in Ireland and many of the petteetant bishops were in
favour of a system such as wee approved of by luny wares-
main for England, that there should be a free admixture of

religious teechieg.
Mr. WHITESIDE wishd to make tome remarks with
reimenco to the church to which he belonged arid the univer-
sity which he had the honour to represent. lie found an
Increase of 26,4261. this year in the vole for
education in Teethed. Although the honourable gen-
tleman told trim it wee • failure, he felt boned to say
that the Queen's College in Belfast was not a failure. He
begged to tell the right hos gentleman the Secretary for
Ireland, that If he traded to the returns in blue hooks for
information es to education in Ireland, he would fall into •
great mistake. When Lord Derby introduced the national
school system, hie intention was that • certain amount of
moral and religions teething should to included in It.
Originally them were three books in the list of those to housed
In schools—Dr. Whetely's Evidence of Christianity, • hymn
book, and • collection of Scripture lesson". These were the only
books of • religious character allowed to be abed, and
every ens of them hid knee been struck out of the lat.
At reseed a board was in exietenat which, although com-
posed of highly respectable individuals, had no greet weight
with any class of the public in Ireland. It append that out
of 6,000 echools, there wire bet 300 vested in the board.
Upwards of 2,000 were under the direct government of the
ROM= catholic clergy. A question had arisen as to what
should be done with the preebyterian schools. There wore
not ended in the board. aud they read the Scripter. s se and
when they pleased. With regard to the church of Eogiand
end the Weide-yens he would say • word or two. The church
of Englend, of cetera, had the method of the parish echoole,
where from time immemorial each dry duly commenced witu
paw. The Weeleyans wens in a worre porition, eo far
se reseleing any aid went. It was a fundamental principle
Rid dews by John Wesley that the reading of the &rte. tum
&sal to • feature of the reading of the schools. Renee
the mixed scheme cut out the Wesleyan, and they lose
dos boat of this fund, which they themselves had contd.
Wei to as taxpeyers. Now, an attempt had been made
Is bring the churches into this system. But how could it
be so? When the board visited • parish school they would
see there written up, " Fear God, honour the king," ' Thou
shalt not steal," "Christ is our only Saviour." AR these must
be token down. and in the place of it would be set up a paper
"bowing the differeoce between vertebrate and invertebrate
tesimale. (Laughter.) He was quite rum that no rystem
which could be devised of secular teaching would receive the
issecties of the clergy of the established church. It was the
belief of the clergy that it wa, their duty not to encourage
• Doerr of teaching which did not competes a knowledge of
the holy Scriptures.
Mr. C. BUXTON thought Shot the time had come when it
was very &Kimble for gentlemen to courtier this subject. But
ins certainly thought that upon the whole the national board
bad extended great benefits to the people of Ireland.
Mr. LONOFIELD thought that nothing had been
brought forward which conclusively proved that the national
system bad been a feilore.
Mr. ADDRRLEY thought it would be a great advantage
if the system of education in Ireland could be seeimileted to
that of England. The truth, he believed, was that the Irish
system had not failed as an educational machinery, but it
had failed in carrying out its original programme as all its
prederarsors had done.
Mr. MONSELL tletaied that the Mimesis eduction in
Ireland was ov. r done, but admitted that the eyebolt had not
been oucceralel. in establishing it 253,0001. had been event,
and 263 students had eraduated, the cost to the nation being
therefore exactly 1,0001. • head. (Hear, hear.) Could any
failure be more complete?
Mr. LEFROY, as member for the University of Dahlia,
felt hound to say • few words on the subject before the house.
For the And tune they heel heard the subject of separate
education approached by the znemberfor the Queen's County.
and had heard it temperately discuses& by the bonnie. He
(Mr. Lefroy) bad often attempted to prove that the national
system of education In Ireland was a failure. He admitted
that the board had done touch good, that their book. were ,
excellent, and that the system had its advantages, but still '
as • machinery for mixed education be contended that it had
entirely failed. He thought that the views of the bee. I
member for Maidstone ware all important fir Ireland, and
hoped that they would have to thank the present government
for carrying them out into practical operation.
Lord NAAS ooneretulated the holm and the conically on
the temperate tone of the diecuseion. Ile agreed with teach
that had fallen from the honourable member for
Limerick. He admitted that the notions' system
hod conferred Inestimable benefit. on Ireland, but still
they had never been able to make it a united one. He
feared, however, that it would be impossible to extend at
once the English system to Ireland, as there was already
there an extrusive organisation, and any redden disturbance
might be dangerous. The late government had a plan in
contemplation for the extension of the pettiest, system, but
their retirement from office prevented its introduction to the
hours. He hoped, however, that the subject would be at-
tended to by their immersers. The national system required
to be extended and widened, and he hoped some plan with
that object would engage the attention of the present able
Secretary for Ireland.
Mr. ESMOND& said that all parties in Ireland were
"greed thee there must be some change in the system.
Mr. CARDWELL elated hie views upon this subject. He
did not agree that the colleges had been a Were; although
they might not have fully succeeded, their result, suggested
hops and enroursgement. As to the larger question, rela-
ting to the national system of education, if that system be
compared with what existed before 1830, and looking at
the number of school end of scholars and its prat-
veal results in books, legal schools and admirable
training, could ft be said to be • failure ? The
system of mixed education, in his opinion, hod not
faded so entirely as many supporad ; but he did not
hold the primary principle of the national system to
be that of a mixed education; the leading principle
from the beginning had been non-interference with the reli-
gion, opieione of the people. It would have been remark-
able, mistiming the difficulties in its way, if mixed
education bad fully succeeded ; but the practical results of
the national system had been Invaluable to Ireland. It
would, be remarked, be prommetuons in him to say more
than that the government felt the most serious desire to give
the fullest coseideration to every proposal, from whatever
quorum bromine:oex, that would inerease the efficiency of the
nalionitl system while maintaining the integrity of its

TILECIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.-EDUCATION.
_ Oa the Tots of 688,9204 for pablio oxhicazicol Is Groat

Mr. LOWE roes and said that the total amount of the
estimate for public education in Orem Britain was 836.9101,
the total estimate for the department of science and art was
93,3911., and the gross sum wee somewhat more than
930,0001. His would first address himself to the sum re-
quired for England, 838,0001. It waa instructive and n-
timating to watch the increaseof that vote, to show which
he would state a few figures. The drat v..te was in 1834,
when It wan 10,6121.0.. Bed., and the expenditure had ad-
vanced till its the year 1849 it was 109,9481. in 1852 it hod
risen to 188,0001., in 1863 it bad rime to 260,0001., M 1864
It had IMOD to 316,0001., in 1866 it had rata to
369,0001•, in 1868 it had risen to 423.0001, in 1867
to 659,0001., sod In 1858 it had ruched to 688,0001. It
seemed, therefore, that it had attained a gradual and weedy
progrua of 100,0001. per annum. The utiles,e for this year
appeared larger time it really was. The 838,0001 should
fairly he subject to a deduction of 76,6881., which was made
revv of the dificiencies of former years. In the year 1867 the
d between the estimate and the expenditure wu
111,9001., In 1838 the mese of expenditure over estimate
wee 19,1091., while in 1869 the excess watt 44,6621.,
which three sums made up the 76,6081. The house
might mishap) think that this threw discredit on the
=nt, but it was not so, for Mau estirost,•
materially frets all callers. They were not properlf
estimates, bat conjectures. An offer was wide of .0", to
the whole kiegdont for the psrpous of 'decades, on amain

"mar. Tdece.y.....17:4779. al.huiyorrtalaniici;ialdnat.thtinsainyn.ng!::l:ftheincrlt;., 3,s;ubtetlfiturttheos..o.2,a‘theie,id:whwethints daiiienhthickte:hhtom:fdethilincihteehtgto,tiyryons;:a.et
tern with in *prowling wider and wider the demand for edri-
with, and the svailingof itself by the publicof theaseletance
'mated by the government. The grants were all increased
this year with the exception of throe for building, which
wag only ite math as it was last year. U he had followed
his own thelinaticre, having made this small floancial state-
ment, he would have sat down, but be was told that it was
expected of every one in the position which he occupied to
say something about education, and therefore he should make
a few remarks. Toe home was aware that • commie ion,
under the presidency of the Duke of Newcastle, was sitting
to investigate the eyetem of public education in England.
While that commiseion was situate it would not be proper for
him to trouble the house with speculations u to what educa-
tion ought to be. Bat he might to allowed to place
before the house a few good and bad points in the
present system of education, so as to enable them to judge
how far the present system war dealeshis. Any impartial
would admit that the system bad many advantages.
the firth place, it had arisen naturally out of the existing
state of thing* without say disturbance of 'elating ferliege
and institutions. It had sprung up by availing itself et the
existence of the great **ions institutions, and its principle
involvlog some metralisettere caused as little centralisation as
possible, and the whole plan meant connexion with voluntary
aborts; it offended no honest prejudice, it left every sect
free to leech its religions doctrines, and it had done
as much good es the state of feeling in England on the sub-
ject would allow. It bad gins no ardenery prod of
strength, by showing that It wee 'viable of in-
crease. No better teat of health coati be found in • man,
a tree or a system, than its capability for steady and symme-
trical growth. You could see its tangible multi in the
unbar of thbools all over the country, for though to a great
extent they were the result of private beuevolthice aid libe-
rality, the volatilise, metributione standing in a ratio of
three to two, there waa no doubt that the disttitutlon
of the fonds at the disposal of the government
bed called forth an &mown of private liberality
which, without that stimulus would not We been
evoked, and the system must be looked at, not as • mere
expenditure of public money, but as a stimulus to private
benevolence. The system found popular education in a rude
and imperfect condition. If it, wee put an end to to-morrow,
it would not be denied that it bed founded a sound einem
and created • standard of popular education to which every-
thing which came after it moth attain. It had another
merit, inasmuch as it had not only established a
system of popular education, but it had created
an agency by which it would be carried out.
By the machinery of pupil teachers the system had raised a
large and intelligent body of iostructors, the poseweion. of
whom would be luvaluable to any weeny that wished more
widely to dismal:eats the blessings of avilimation. It hod
stimulated, too, Is • very remarkable manner the energies
of the teachers, because it gave them, in addition to their
minimum salary of at least 301. a year' an augmentation of
lemma proportionate to their maim, tohe iodated by an ex-
amination. It bad also, by educatiog the pupil teachers, sent
forth into the world a number of young moo, the moos of
very poor parents, furnished with a meat deal of andel and
valuableinformation. It had thus had • tendency to pro-
mote secondary as well as primary education; for
it bad given to persons in the lower walk, of life • type of
education, which they would not otherwise have obtained.
The centransation of the system had bad soother goad
effect—it had enabled the Privy Council to order of the book-
sellers works required in tuition, nod to distribute them
amongst schools at a discount of not less than 40 per cote.
It had also, by stimulating ark-mend for education, done very
much to raise the rate of remuneration paid to the teacher,
and had thus effected what the friends of popular instruction
had always coneidered as a moot desirable deject—it had
elevated the status of the profession, and made it one to .
which young men might reasonably be expected to devote
themsolvee. Once more, Ly the system of itspection it had
kept up the standard of each school ; and it had made every
teacher feel that he was the object of vigilant interest.
(Hear.) These appeared to him (to the right hen. gentleman)
to be the principal benedte which the plan had con-
ferred upon the country; and he thought no candid man,
whatever might be his opinions as to the principles upon
which it was founded, would deny that they were benefits of no
ordinal), character. (Cheers.) Whether it was to remain as
• permanent system, or whether they treated ilea an experi-
ment which bad done some good in its dry, but which was
now destined to give place to a more perfect system, nobody
could say that thee had any reason to regret what it bad
cost the country. The total expenditure it bad involved warn
a sum of 3,700,0001., and no one he thought would my that
that money had been 111 spent. (Cheers.) Ho now came to
enumerate what appeared to him to be its drawbacks ; but
before he did so he was bound to say that they beamed to
arise from the defective character of the sys-
tem itself, and not from any maladministration on
the part of those who bad preceded him. (Hear.)
The first and moat obvious fault we., that being founded
upon voluntary contribution* and pre-supposing that there
were in every district persons able and withag to undertake
the maingement of the school'', the ey.tem could never be-
come a thoroughly national one. What was still more un-
fortunate was that where it was most wanted It was least
efficient; and when it was most efficient it was least wanted.
(Hear, hear.) That was unhappily a defect which could not
to remedied except by • fundamental alteration. Another
evil wee the strict rules which ir entailed, and which it was
absolutely necessary to 'maintain in order to prevent the
commit from being devoured. (A laugh.) If they were to
adopt an equitable construction of their rules and allowed
themselves to consider hard cue* they would be swept away
by the demands that would be made upon them. Every-
thing would become an exception • bulwark after bulwark
would be broken dome, and they would soon have to satisfy
every demand that was made upon theta by any respectable
person. (Hear, hear.) Another evil was the emphasis which
the system gave to denominational differences. When it was
first begun the trait deeds of schools were oh= very loosely
worded, but as soon as it was known that it was inteeded to
moist the voluntary efforts of the different denominations,
then the deeds began to be drawn with great care, sad the
denominational differences of the founders were brought
out in the sharpest posrible manner. It was very
much to be repelled that public money should have
been expended in endowing actual* moot of which were
founded on very exclusive principles. lie could not hut
think that the suggestion of the boo. member for Belfast
with respect to another matter would be well applied to this, sad
that before a grant was made to any deoommatiensl church,
the founders should be required to introduce some sort of
conscience dolma into its trust deed, so that children might
not be compelled to learn the formularies of the mot to which
the school belonged if its WOWS objected. (Hear, hear.)
That was In effect already done in many instances. Theft
were &ROMen of the church of Enelend who ware latter
thee their,bond, end were willing to open their schools; bat
thereweremany others wheread the formularies of their felt gion
se • test to drive away children of dbasenters, unless they
were willing to submit at once to the religions teaching of
their schools. (Hear, bear.) Another evil in the system
wee the arrangement which the different wets had made with
the oranwil, that their schools should each be inspected by an
inepector of the same religion. The result was, that of the
69 inspectors, the tasteless of at least nee-third might be die-
peneed with if a different rule prevailed. Another evil was
the complication which the present system intro-
duced into the beanies, of the antral office. There wens
16.000 pupil teacher* 6,000 schthimastere ended/Meows, and
69 inspectors, of different religions. Then there were
building prang, which often lemained 18 months in
abeyance before the partire could nape the money.
Then there were than training school* in which a certain
member of pupil teachers were admitted as Qvaten',, scholars
on pawing an examination; to that every Chlitheiss the
council had to examine no fewer than 6,000 persons. Then
the managers of scrap were a very uncertain and fluctuat-
ing body, and in fact the committee often hardly knew whom
they were dealing with. The results of them things was to
entail upon the conneil a vest amount of business fa the way
of correspondence. (Hear, hear.) He bad meationed these
drawback. on the pretreat .yatem with the same fairness ea
he had described its adrantages • and his object la bringing
them forward wee not with • ;law to create a prejudices
sgainst it, but merely became it was the only and the very
humble contribution which he could make towards the betas-
mem of that Important question which they would soon have
coded with, namely.whether they should maintain the present
plea, or to regard it as merely paving the way to another It
(Hear, hear.) The probable ultimate cost of national educa-
tion was • rubject on which he might be 'Bowed to say •
few words. The country was at present assisting in the
education of about 821,000 children, at • net coot of about
730 0001., after deducting the deficiency in former rens.
This was about eetfivalent to 121. for 13 children. ft was
ealculated that there were stout 9000,000 children who
onglit to be brought under the agency of oar public educa-
tion. Of course it was not likely that all who ouelft to be
educated would ever be brought within the jurisdiction of the
Ptivy Council; but, on the other hand, the number of chil-
dren to be educated might be expected to increase with the
growth of the population. The coat of the satablohment
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grants might elm be expected to ierreate with lees rept,We a
bet he was of opinion that the neceesary votes might trtrf
to 2,6001. • year. (Hear, bear.) Of mums, tlfellwf7 two
views to be taken of this larger ethendituor:...o twit
for
bend they might rejoice that so much :an y
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