The Express.
London, England, 1859-07-15 00:00:00

bL PPLY.—N AVY ESTIMATES.
The house then went into a committee el *apply upon the
remaining navy estimate..
The eupplecoestary vote of 100,0001. for the bounty or gra-
tuity to stamen already in the service, upon certain con-
dition, gate rise to much discussion.
Lord C. PAGET explained and justified the vote. The
principle ef a bounty, he observed, ought to be very cordially
co ..eree • bat the late government haring adored the
principle, the position of the men in the service required
couaideritioe. He admitted that they had no legal claim,
and that they had never uttered • complaint; but justice,
he thought, sat sound policy demanded the course proposed
by the government.
Sir J. PAKINGTON protested vehemently against this
course, for which, he contended, no sue t:tent reason had
been shown; and which, while sacrificing uoneoeeaesily •
large amount of money, would establish a dangerous
precedent.
Sir C. NAPIER defended the bounty.
Sir J. GRAHAM considered that a bounty was • last
resource in time of war, and feared that the untimely re-
course to it would add to the difficulty of meaning the fleet
in time of peso lint the principle of a bounty, during peace,
having received the sanction of parliament, he had no doubt
that the proposed gratuity was the inevitable consequence of
of the former bounty. The right hon. baronet, having
made some remarks in reply to Sir Charles Napier,
Sir C. NAPIER observed that the right hon. baronet said
that he (Sir C. Napier) took credit to hinted( far all that had
been dons for the navy the lent tkirty yews. That was au
untruth. What he took reedit for was the getting th com-
mission appointed on the mansing of the navy. 'Thee right
hoe. baronet said be manned the Baltic fleet. Prettily that
fleet wee mewed. Tbere never wee • fleet sent to Ma in
such a disgraceful manner as the Sallie SIM ens. lielliferfei
to Captain Rep* and to Capes* RUM. Why did be not
name the other ship+ ? He knew well enmesh how that fleet
that rationed, ery end ev officer In it knew ea well as heal id
that it are badly manned. He had no hesitation in raying
no, and he would tell the right hoe. baronet further that if
he would allow him to produce his own letters and Sir
Maurice Berkeley's oa the way in which that Beet we
warmed, the house would in satonlithed, and he wee not sure
he van doing right in not readies( them.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The sellout admiral has &heady taken
the liberty el reading my private letters without my per-
miasioa. (Laughter.)
Sir C. NAPIER—Not all of them.
The vote was then agreed to.
THE SUPPLEMENTARY ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. S. HERBERT, in moving these estimates observed
that It would not be eseemery to go much into detail, be-
cause the greeter part of the votes for the effective services
had been taken in the Mat parliatosett. With regard to the
*moult of force at the present time in Emitted, there had
been • good deal of dimussion during the lest two or three
days; and his gallant friend (General Peel) bad exactly ex-
plained to the boons what that amount uses. He had
stated quite accurately that, including the Indian depots,
there were 110,000 men of all ranks le this country and in
Ireland, and that of that number 23.000 coasted ot em-
bodied militia. The hon. gentlemen (Mr. Bailie) said that
the militia ought not to form any part of the permanent
force but that it ought to be kept an • maw. He (Mr.
Herbert) entirely concurred in that statement; bat the house
must recollect that the gallant officer had to administer the
army ate time of singular difficulty. He had had suddenly
ti raise the wog by a greet number of battalions, and be
had to send all the troops he could lay hie heeds upon to
India, in order to meet en unparalleled emergency. He had
therefore done wifely in calling out the militia, assuming
that on the return of regiments from hada be would be able
to dispense with a corresponding number of militia.
That was hie plan ; but a dins bad owns to
which no further allusion was necessary, but which
had induced him to take a supplementary estimate. Un-
happily there had Mee • mutiny in the local European
force, but although the return of two or three regiments had
been delayed, we bad got six battalions of infantry from
India, a cavalry regiment, a large portion ot the Military
Train, which had been used as • cavalry force in India, and
• battalion from Canada. At the same tines be did not think
it would be wire to diaembody the militia toe similar • vane
Next year, if w 3 got a large force of regular troops from
India, It would be wise to take that step, end thus the militia
might so far be treated an • reserve. (Hear, hest.) Still be-
fore that could be done, it would be woreary to leek roost
carefully and anxiously into the state of the dis-
embodied regiments, becalm though than was not
doubt that that force was powerful on paper,
he was afraid that on inquiry it would show a lamentable'
deficiency in fact. (Hear, boar.) He would not on this
oocaaion allude to the measures the goverment had in view
to mitigate end dimini-tt the evil ; be would merely eay that
It was (air the country should know how far it °eget to rely
on • body which on paper wee formidable, but which ea
i =skim wee extremely week. (Hear,
_hear.) If our military
form was small It had of late been edminably admitestered.
We had now 180 guns horsed and 110 in reserve. This wan
a great improvement on whet had been the case in times
pent ; and a great deal of item owing to the zeal and excellent
edannistration of the late Minister for War. (Cheers.) A
few years ego much diseatiefection existed with regard
to the&ankuad t Alderehott. Those right bon. gentlemen who
had f him h expeneoced some difficulty in obtain-
ing t votes cecersary to establish the camp; became it was
✓aid it did net ansen the purposes for which it was deeigued.
There was no doubt that while the English army as an es-
tablished force wee &R-rate, it had been very deficient in
those anxiliary services which were so necessary to its well.
being. le the Crime* the deficiencies of the comma...net, I
the military train, and the melted department, had been
mast paintully apparent; end it of late yeses • great improve-
ment had taken place, nothing hid contributed more to it
than the camp at Aldershot (Hear, hear.) They had read
within the last few day. • report from thegene-
ral commanding, setting forth what bad been the oocupatiow
in which the troops had been engaged during • certain
period. The gallant officer stated that the progress the
2nd battalion of recruits had made in the drill was most
remarkable, and that the embodied militia was in a mate
of efficiency which had astonished military men. (Hear.)
It was alleged that no opportunity had bun afforded the
troops of really end practically lensing camp life; but be
believed that much had been done to answer that objection.
I Earthworks had been thrown up by unpaid military lebour.
Parties of infantry and cavalry had been sent out to encamp
at a distant* of fifteen miles, and, noteitbstandieg
I the heat of the weelm, they had nada the
march without a single men falling out. The men I
hat been taught to construct their teesporery Cavell, and
there was a marked change for the batter. The C 0111616411.
riot had had to buy animals, to erect slaughter-houses, and
to conduct the vitals proems of supplying troupe. It might
be said that in • country like this the commiesariat had
nothing to do which could compare with the actual ezi-
gmettes of war. That ma quite true, but they could sot
create artificial difficulties fur the purpose of overcoming them ;
but still en fax art was possible everything bed been done to
aired both the troops and the commiseariat the instruction
they needed. (Hear, base) It was aratilying to add that
the amount of crime had greatly diminished. Lem session
there was a great deal of demesne on thesubjectof desertion ;
bat within the last two or three mouths there had been a
marked divined= to that offence. The health of the troops
et the camp
.wee simply unprecedented In military anal. ;
but he (the right hon. @manatees) did not Metall attach so
much imp trance to the statistics which at first sight they
might seem to merit. When they remembered bow much
larger was the proportion of menwhomagre varied from IS to 25
Imre, they would Bed that the rate of sickness and mortality
would naturally be lees than if the age of the men varied
from 18 to 45. (Hear, hose) The vote for the embodied
militia was 410,0001. The next vote, wages, amounted to
108,000/. • but it must be recollected that a great deal of it
was not for purely military purposes. For example, there
was • sum of 49,0001. for the Royal Laboratory; bet that
looleded shot and shell for the prelims at Gibraltar and
Melts, and &leo to supply 15 limeof-battle ships, 30 frigates,
30 sloops, and 60 gun vessels. There was • chirp of
4,8421. for the Royal Gun Factory ; but that was merely for
the purpose of hastening the work., which it was proposed
to finish in es many weeks as it was formerly peopled they
ehaeld take months. It was intended to create ten new bat-
teries of 18. pounders, which were to be kept aa • movable
force along the coast, and he hoped that in • very short time
they would be ready. The house would be Bled to know
what was being made to supply the new gone of
Sir William Armstrong. Presuming that the bedding sad
machinery were completed by the bit of October, it was ax-
piloted that 100 guns would be eueplieri by the end of the
year, and 200 more before, the end of the financial year. At
that rate of delivery it would be seen that, in • short time, a
very large number of those formidable weapons would be
Owed on board our ships and in our defeat:es. (Hear, hear.)
The next vote IVY far robing the embodied m ; end
she
for the lend and ma terve:et, wee a large one.
thenenautmfb.errfarcrfgemanend. w
The n.hicsht
ovfo°t*",""wara ilitiailike s'ltoreelt:
It included an item of 60.0001. for Eitheld rides, and for shot
and shell for the Armstrong guns. Another item, 120.0004
fur miriellaneous atones, included metals, sad • great variety
of other materials. The next nes vies vie" importmnet
Mid
one
—it was for fortifications. In some the pla
already undergone much criticism, end the object of the void
wee in these cams priucipatly to hasten on the work ea
rapidly as possible. It was obvious that an unfinished ford-
Marion wee, it anything, worm then nothing—it oonld not
be defended, bat in the event of attack it might be made to
afford the enemy cover. In Alderney great power had
been made ; nd the vote wee premilmily thafeeded to tender a
part of the isaland iwooreeible by reearmessies. At Parementle
very extortive works bad bees fur sore time ie cores
of ounerectios; and the premet vete wee to mastaredefinone
11/ 801k/11 Bey, .not ea the raters skit. At Perked,
which was ono of the Amer harbors la the raid, bat which
was at preemie quits defsweekse, It was grapier le meet •
cimdel on the top of the Wand. The merrier which would
be rat, would bee thrown dinetly tern the sr, orb woad
form • great moo ar breakwater. It was proposed tedelend
the two ensnares into Use harbour, one of thews by • tower
sarryeas 80 or 90 gar. There would; be samber ea Bands
Point; sad some smaller fortifications. whish it was hoped
would render it ioaposaible for it to fell into the brae of

i

ssa dX

an enemy. At Milama harleUr it um ..Wt proyoftel to
subaticute heavier guns • but at some for ore owe it might be
thought *memory an erect defencible barrack.. With oval
to Portsmouth, there was at present no defence of the en-
trance to ftpithead ; and it was a matter for consideration
whether it WON be belt*, to WWI a Will 91. to I,4CP'.
lag defences ; and careful eaperinithis *lre *Ding toads as to
the character of the soil, In order to determine that point.
(Hear, hear.) The next vote was for the school of gunners
at iihoeburynees ; and be felt sure the house would not
grudge anything that was thoorbt textuary for the of
of our artillery. At Woolwich it was proposed
to spend 12,0001. on a magazine which would save the
3,9001. which the floating magmata at present coat the
country every year. At that time it was proposed to reform
the medical school. At present the candidates were examined
by any thee medical ofiloers who could conveniently attend
for that purpose, but who were not aceuatomed to conduct
examinations. There was so little confideoc, felt in the pre-
sent system that after a candidate had posed he was taken
down to Chatham to study in the very department with re-
gard to which his suceeseltil examination ought to be regarded
as a guarantee for his proficiency. It was proposed to adopt
the plan of the East India Company, and to provide
that after the candidate had pared his civil exa-
mination he should go down to Chatham and study
the specialities of military surgery and medicine. (Hear.)
Vote 14 was a small sum for a cantribution towards a railway
natioe for the convenience of embarking end dirosbarking
troops at Alderabott, and 17,0001. for a rifle range at Chat-
ham. Having gone through these details, he would con-
clude by proposing a vote of 410,0001. fee the embodied
militia. _ . -• .• •

--
General PEEL remarked that the Meese* is the eatimistee
mom Irene tlindilletatalee with* bed ariseneeme the eatinastes
were teldlnefy framed. It had been Mated that the die-
etaboSid niffitia was sot satiafeetery, and is that remark he
per&elly agreed. The deficiency In the lam training amounted
to one-third of the whole corp., and he was afraid it was not
Nee maul present time.
Colonel P. HERBERT considered it necessary that
oar danced should be Owed on • satisfachiry tooting la
order to give confidence to the nation in the event of any
sodden attempt at invasion. It had been mid that the dis-
cussions aborts sudden attack on the country were in bad
taste towards France, and were directed towards France, but
the answer was obvious. There was no other nation which
had the means of threatening us by any sudden attempt to
that descriptiou. It bad been said that there were 110,000
men available for the deters) of the country. Bat that
number Included the sick, the recruits which had been lately
raised, whether instructed or uninstructed, the recruits in
the Indian depots, them who were unavailable in conse-
quence of being under entente for crime, and many others
who could not be oalculated upon for efficient envies. The
number of Wesley did not earned 62,200, and out of that
number all the garrisons, esolusive of those in India, had to
be famished, and he believed he was within the mark In
deducting 30,000 mentor that purple*, leaving a balance of
only 32,000 men for the defence of this country. The troops
In Indian depots might be added to the another,
but thee* recruits were hardly to be relied upon
ter the defence of this country against the regular troops of
France. Only a hundredth portion of the militia had been
embodied for any length of time. He thought himself per-
fectly justified in saying that we ware not in a satisfactory
state to repel en attack upon this country.
Sir H. VERNEY said thatithe system of enlistment for 10
years °peened injuriously. Some inducement ought to beheld
out to toe men to reenlist. It was desirable that the man in
I barracks should be more fullyemployed. In Franceeverything
which the soldiers required was made in the harvests ; and
where the men were most occupied there was the least mires
. and that:eat punishment. The French soldiers were able to
parchaes then own provisions, make their own clothes, pra-
t vide their own dwellings, and their own amusements and

emoloymeets.
Sir F. SMITH referred to the large some put down in the
estimates for fortifications. No less than 320,0001. was pro-
posed for Devonport, while last year only 10,0004. was el-
pended. Many persons doubted the wisdom of these tarp
fortifications. le was deeirable that the flotation &cold be
decided on what eyatan we were to proceed. Large fortifi-
ootions required a large number of troops to garrison them.
lie agreed in the propriety of having large &Guides works
at St. Bellow's and Portland. The latter was our advanced
post towards France, directly opposite Cherbourg. lie
questioned the propriety of opiates a large sum on defensive
weak? at Dover, sa thatwas the least likely place for • French

attack.
After some remarks from Col. Dense, Mr. Monthll, and
Col. Gilpin,
Sir 8. M. PETO complained of the want of concerted
arrangements and forethought m all that belonged to the war
department. During the war he visited the temp at
Shorneliffe, and fined that although the huts had been
erected no made bed been made, sae there wee no muses to
the camp. Teen be chaffed that the Commander.in-Chief
directed cavalry to go there at a time when there was not •
stable to receive the home. He went there again teat week,
anhough the camp had been formed four or five years,
it was • fact that until the intensely hot weather of the lest
four or five weeks, whilst typhus fever was developing
itself, that camp lied been lett without the slightest
drainege. It was only now that drainage pipes
I were being laid down. He (Sir 8. M. Pete) had been
led by his engagemente in Sardinia to observe during the
' lest sin or seven weeks the admirable administration of the
French army; turd he must say that what he saw of it wee
diametrically opposite to our own experiesce in the Crimea.
All the affairs of the Frence army were conducted with as
much forethought and arrangement as teeth of any great
mercantile firm in this country would be.
Mr. 8. HERBERT, in reply to the observations which
had been made, said he must admit that the men 112 the
depots were not on the saute footing of effimencytts the trained
battalions. With regard to the mum of government mum-
factoring their own Gnu, he couthead be badabias against the
principle of government being their own menutacturers. At
the same time, they found that they could purchase these
articles ate cheaper rate when they had the check of govern-
ment competition on the trade. It might be necemary,
therefore, in special mesa where there wee not suffloisnt
competition amongst the trade, that the goverement
should be their own manufacturers. There was not
so greet a deildency in the number of effective men
es some boo. gentlemen seemed to suppose. 229,000
was the number of men on the reulthusentary vote,
and 220,000 was the effective forth of the army, not the Gam-
ble of men on paper. He did not think that • deficiency of
9,000 wee a large defici,ncy, considering that they had
90,000 men in lodia, sad that it took • cousiderable time to
supply the vacancies which had occurred. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to themarks of the hon. bonet (Sr 8. M.
Pete), be did not think it quite fair,w alter • long
IMOD, to apply eesmples of the kind he referred to
to • system wet& hid ethos been entirely changed. It
might be that their present system we. faulty, and third
there wee something wrong in the orgthisation. It would be
preanimptuous in him after being only • few days in office to
my there were defects, and to apply the reinedlee, but he had
shown, by moving foe • committee on the organisation of the
army, that be was ready to learn, and haying learned,
The
be
would be prepared to propose the sec:emery changes.
hon. baronet referred to the want of drainage at the Short:t-
elt& camp. He regretted that the othintiosima on the bani-
tary state of the army showed that the condition of the army
is this teapot, both in England and Ireland, might-be im-
proved. These matters deserved serious conaideration and
if he could produce say measure by which an elteiation
could be effected be would do so without lode of time. (Hear.)
Captain VERNON said he wished to seam one great fact,
audit was this, that they were about to vote 12,000,0001. for
the army, out of which 411101 but 3,500,0001. went to
to the
the
fighting men. (Hear.) The rest of the mossy went
staff and such lime. The home staff cost 131,9511. • the
foreign eta% 180,326/ ; the total Oa, 312,2821.. or I-10th of
the whole mu of the army. The department of the decretary
for war emit 101,000/. ; of the coarrathder-in-chief. 185,0001.
It was high time to remove the enormous incubus of the
saQ which rode upon the shoulders of the bghting men.
(Hear, bear.) The supplementhl staff cost 4,241/.
the didtrict
tor per-
veva which coald be jug as well performed by
sta. (Her.)
The vote wee then agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed t
103.3751. wages of artificers and men.
60,0001. clothing and owe...rise.
93,1801., for provisions, forage, fa'', and Vat,

agreed to.
CRIMINAL JUSTJUDO irlt MIDDLES
BILL. EX (ASSISTANT
Oa the motion for irmog too nominates on this hill,
Mr. E. CRAUFURD moved an instruction empowering
the committee to "stead the provisions of the bill to all par-
ents bolding judicial appointments in the United Kingdom.
Sir G. LEWIS objected to the mature, on the grand that
the Dill bad • particular not a general object, and that
Mr. Cronfard proposed to introduce a prieriplo entirely new
and white would apply to recorders, asgstent-barristere in
Ireland, and abara-ta Scotland.
The motion Ina negatived, and the hotire went into com-
p:dans on the bill, the clauses of which were agreed to after •

lase debate.
POOR LAW BOARD (PAYMENT OP DEBTS) BILL.
After • short disesupion, the farther consideration of this
tall was fixed for Monday next.
The Admiralty Cootie Bill was reel a third time end
'The other orders were then disposed of, sod the horse lid-
, ioarnsd et s risertee pest two (Mark.
--...

-------__
STATUE Or Tlll6 GREEK SLAVS.—The original
Hiram
states of the Greek Slave, the cebibwited work by
ers, 'aeated In the yaws Carrera marble, was on
Pow
Wednesday disposed of by public auction by Mr. Phillips,
at hla great TOMO, 73, NOlrritilldign. This beautiful
yonog ear'. beautiful gar girl for orb io $ Turkish
—was executed eloowsly for the Ws owner, red wu exhi-
bited at the Great Erdobitios of Pril, where it gelled usi-
venal sibuirnion. The fortunate Rurcheser la the Duke
of Cleverol, for the sum of 1,800 limners.