The Express.
London, England, 1860-08-01 00:00:00

(Stamped, Id. Additional.)

deration of the European Forces (India) Bill, as amended
in the committee.
Colombia FRENCH said that under ordinary circumstances
it would be his duty to offer the strongest opposition to the
motion at his noble friend, but having consulted with throe
hos. members who were opposed to the bill, be found that
having already taken part in the discusaions, they were not
willing to make any further debate on the measure. He
should not, therefore, offer any opposition to the motion of
the noble lord, but it would be on the distinct understaud-
in that they should have an opportunity of stating their
views on the third reading.
Mr. HADFIELD mid. after the friendly letter of the
Emperor of the French, he begged to ask the noble lord
whether he meant to press his motion respecting the fortill•
cations this session ? He thought it would be only a matter
of common justice to have time to deliberate on a measure
of which the oast to the country would, in his opinion, be
not less than 2:1,000,000/.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the noble krd to fix a day
for the third readinogg of the European Forces (India) Bill.
Lord PAL N said he had every disposition to fix '
an early day on which there should be ample opportuaity
for the fullest dna-maim. He did not think that he could
fix as earlier day than that day (Tuesday ) week. Thursday
would be devoted to the fortifications, and that debate might
extend to Friday. (Several members here suggested
Friday.) Well, he could propose it for Friday, contingently
on the debate upon the fortifications coming to a close on
Thursday. If it did not come on Item Friday it could not
be introduced before Tuesday next, the paper duties being
fixed for Moodey.
Sir DE L 1f VANS said it was very desirable that a posh
.tive day should be fixed for the bill.
The bill as emended was then considered, and the third
reading amid fraltelderperreee— -•
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
Mr. SPOONER asked whether there was any intention
of bringing on the civil 'orrice estimator to-morrow (this
day)?
Lord PALMERSTON—CertainIy not to-morrow (this
day).
SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. BUXTON—who had upon the paper a motion to call
attention to the rapid increase of the slave trade, and to
move, that, in the opinion of this house, it is the duty of
her Majesty's government to enforce upon the government
of Spain the immediate execution of the treaties regarding
the slave trade ; firstly, by demanding the repayment, with
interest, of the 400,000 i. paid by England to Spain upon
the condition that the slave trade should be abolished ;
secondly, by suspending diplomatic relations with Spain
until the treaties are fully carried out—mid that owing to
the amount and pressure of public business at that period of
the session, he should withdraw the motion.

VOLUNTEER CORPS (IRELAND).
Colonel FRENCH moved for leave to bring in a bill to
extend to Ireland all powers to make rules and regulations
for the enrolment and eey • Hon of volunteer corps which
are now by law aronlicab to Great

Mr. CARDWELL said he did not think that it would be
either judicious or expedient to accede to the motion at the
present moment ; nor did he believe that it would give ea-
tisfaction to the people of Ireland. The hoe. gentleman
only proposed to assimilate the law in Ireland to that of
England, leasing it optional with the government how far
that law should be earned into effect. But if the govern-
ment were now to enoourage • measure for the purpose of
investing them with this power—if they were to alter the
law from the form in which it had stood from the peace of
Amiens down to the present time—the natural and neces-
sary expectation would be that it was their intention
immediately to act upon the powers so conferred upon
them. It would almost amount to an engagement
on their part to set upon those powers. He did not think
that it would be either judicious in itself or generally
satisfactory to the people of Ireland to take such a step at
the present moment. The reason why he thought so was
not from the slightest doubt that it would be possible to
obtain in Ireland, at the shortest notice, as large a number
of loyal men, devoted to their sovereign and their country,
as would be necessary for its defence. Nor did be doubt
that there would be men of both the churches into which the
country was divided. The experience of former times con-
firmed that belief. During the late war, the moment that
there was a real apprehension of the violation of the coat
of Ireland by foreign invaders, that moment all mutual
animosities and all tarty feelings, which were then much
stronger than now, instantly ceased, and protestants and
catholics, though the latter were not allowed to bear arms,
united in bringing in their subscriptions for the purpose
of raising • national force. And if such was
the case at that period, with far greater confidence might
the governmeut rely that such would be the care at the
present time. It was not in the slightest degree from any
distrust that the government did not desire to he armed
with the powers which the lion. member proposed to confer
upon them. But it could not he denied that there were in
Ireland other coneideraticms of great importance which it
was necessary to beer in nand. Before putting arms into the
hands of a large number of people they were bound to ask
what would be the natural consequence of such a step.
Would it tend to promote harmony, or have the opposite
effect ? In former times they bad found the great danger
arising from the possession of arms by those who,
though generally actuated by the best feelings towards
each other, were subject, through some monism.
tary or accidental excitement, to become enemies
instead of friends—a result which of all others they
ought to deprecate and guard against. Was not that the
case very recently! The great town of Belfast was at that
moment subject to proclamation under the Peace Preserva-
tion Act, because, after the party strife that had suddenly
broken out there, the parties bad begun to form themselves
into rival gun clubs, leading to most serious apprehen-
sions as to the preservation of the peace in Belfast. It was
owing, not to any general animosity among different
classes of the people, but to transient and occasional causes
arising in certain parts of Ireland, that the government
had hesitated to call upon the acknowledged loyalty of the
people, in which they had as much confidence as they had
in the loyalty of other parts of the Queen's dominion'. He
believed that that decision bail given great satisfaction in Ire-
land; for notwithstanding tbeirloyalty and their desire to rally
round the Queen and the country, the number of applica-
tions since the determination of the government had boon
made known not to organism the volunteer force, had been
very small. It was not from the slightest doubt that, when
any momentary emergency arose, the loyalty of Ireland
would be universally displayed, that the government had
come to this determination ; bat because, in the circum-
stances of Ireland, and in some parte of Ireland, cases would
arise that would render the placing of arms generally in the
hands of large classes of the people undesirable. Believing
such to be the case, the government did not think it judi-
cious at the present time to take the course proposed. They
believed that, whenever the moment arrived, the loyalty
and spirit of the Irish people would be manifested in such •
manner as to show that it was not necessary to take these
steps in advance ; sal they believed that they were acting
most in harmony with the general interests of the country
in refueling to support the motion of his hon. friend.
Mr. MAGUIRE did not believe that a single Irish mem-
ber would be satisfied with the answer given by the right
lion. gentleman. (Hear, bear.) Anything so shallow, so
bordering on humbug. he had never heard in that house.
(Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman had referred to
the events of 1707, when Ireland was in a state which ought
to have caused Englishmen to blush. If there was not real
apprehension now, why was the noblo lord demanding
eleven or twelve millione from the tax-payers of this country
for additional defences ! If England was menaced, was not
Ireland in still greater danger? (Hear, hear.) We must
suppose there was danger ; if not, the house had been called
upon to legislate on false pretences. Had steam been ap-
plied to the propulsion of ships 70 years ago, French rule
might at this tame have prevailed re Ireland. A steam
fleet now woukl reach Ireland at any time arranged by the
invader. Wu Ireland, then, to be left wholly unprepared!
or was the use of arms so natural in the Irish people, that
they need not be taught to use a musket, fire at • mark, or
even the goose step! It was • bad policy the noble lord
was following with regard to Ireland. It was practically
saying to that country, "We don't care about you ; we
distrust you ; we will not give you that which implies
trust, viz., arms." If bad blood existed in Ireland, the
government were gesponsible for it. It was their duty to
put down not only the Ribbon conspiracy, but the Orange
conf,,lemcy also. He believed the encouragement of the
volunteer movement in Ireland would promote good feeling
among all clause. He knew the feeling of the people of
Ireland ; but should he speak the truth! If so, he would
say that he did believe that, after the statement of the
noble lord and the statement of the right hon. gentleman,
if an invading French army landed in Ireland to-morrow,
• vast proportion of the people of that coun.
try would not meet them as foes. (Oh, oh.)
Was that • feeling to encourage? He told the noble lad
he was adopting an unwise course. He (Mr. Maguire) was
not advocating the proposal—he left the responsibility
witk the noble lord. But he could tell the noble lord that
the great bulk of the Irish people were thoroughly dis-
affected towards the government, and the policy which was
being pursued towards them as indicated in the speech
which the noble lord mode a few days ago, and which la
effect the right hop. gentleman had now repeated, was cal-
culated rather to increase their distrust than to inspire nos.
faience. (Herr. hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON could not my that his bon. and
Wfriend or the bon. gentleman who had just spoken
ield out any very great encouragement to the house to
adopt this proposal. •(" Hear, hear," sod • laugh.) His
hon. end ga hint friend, wishing to convince the house that
there would be no possible chance of danger or hostile oil-
lision between the differesit setts In Ireland, had favoured
them with an anecdote to the effect that two friends, after
travelling together for three weeks, and being all the time
cm the most agreeable and confidential footing, discovered
one fine morning that one was an Orangeman and the other
a Roman catholic, whereupon the latter said to the former,
" I never amid have thought you were an Orangeman, for I
always supposed that the Orangemen were our bitterest'
foes, sad always waiting for the opportunity to rut
our throats ;" to which the other replied, " Why, that is
exactly what we hare always thought of you Roman

[TWOPENCE.

catholies." If the two classes, the protestants and Roman
mailable of Ireland, would always live together OD the same
peaceful and friendly terms as did these two gentlemen
during those three weeks—(CoL FRENCH—I did not say
three weeks.}—well, if they would live together in the
seine friendly terms, and were disabused by personal ex-
perience of each other es these gentlemen were, of the
notion that each cies; desired metaphorically to cut the
throats of the other, then he would admit, with his hon.
and gallant friend, that the dewier of putting arms into the
hands of the Irish people was chimerical. So long,
however,as—by the admission of his honourable and
gallant friend was the case—a feeling of mutual
distrust existed, he could not think it would he
useful or adviaabie to follow the recommendation of his
hon. mid patent friend by placing arms in the hand, of
penises who entertained against each other these jealousies,
animosities, and suspicions. (Hear, hear.) But the hon.
I member for Dunmarvan went further, and told the house
that if the French were to land in Ireland the majority of
the Irish nation would meet them notes foes, and his line-
ginatioe growing as be prooseded—and ho (Lord Palmer-
' stun) believed it was imagination and imagination only—he
added a little further on that the great bulk of the Irish
people were entirely disaffected towards the British govern-
ment. Surely these were strange reasons to urge
for entrusting them with arms. But, as he had said, he
(Lord Palmerston) altogether disbelieved the atatement.
The hon. member for Dungervan told the house that ho
knew Ireland well ; he thought the government knew it
something better, and it often happened that those who re-
garded an object from a distance knew it better than those
who were directly in contact with it. The hon. gentleman
might know the party feelings that prevailed anions certain
individuals and classes, and might generalise particular
Inetarioss; but he (Lord Palmerston) denied on the part of
the Irish people the aspersion which the hon. gentleman in
his seal, and in the heat of his oratorical display, had cast
,11 them. (" Hear, hear," and Laughter.) lie believed
that the hon. gentleman had altogether misrepresented the
state of things in Ireland, and that he placed far
too much importanoe upon what ho (Lord Palmer-
ston) said when he described the alleged disaffection
on the part of the great mass of the people of Ireland to a
speech niade by him a week ago, and to the speech made by
his right hon. friend that evening. (Hear, bier.) The hon.
gentleman said that those speeches had so powerful an effect
that they would turn loyalty into disloyalty,and make the great
majority of the Irish people disaffected towarls the British
government and the British throne, inasmuch as they proved
to them that in the event of an invasion they would be left
entirely unprotected and at the mercy of the foreig;n foe.
But was Ireland really in that unprotected state which the
hon. gentleman's speech would loathe house to infer? Inthe
first place there were now, in time of peace, 30,000 regular
troops in Ireland (hear, Lear)—andao far from the govern-
ment having shown that distrust in the Irish people
which the honourable gentleman stated, they had
organised a militia force 30,000 strong. Here, then, was an
army of 60,000 armed and trained men to be opposed at the
outset to any enemy that might invade Ireland—(hear)—
and surely with such a force it was a stretch of fancy to say
that Ireland was wholly unprotected. Besides this, there
were 110,000 militia in England and 60,000 in &Wand, of
which a good portion might, if Ireland were attacked, be
went across the Channel to assist the regular troops. He
could only say, in conclusion, that the reasons which had
been advanced by his bon. and gallant friend in support of
his motion were not such as would induce him to accept the
proposal, and he should be content to rest on those reasons
in resisting it. (Hear.)
Mr. POLLABD-UltQUHAßToomplained that the speech
of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Cardwell) was calculated
to excite distrust, and asked what would be thought if it
were objected against the formation of a Cambridge militia
corps or an Oxford militia cape that gown and town rows
occasional,. took place in those cities.
Colonel DUNNE concurred with the noble lord as to the
loyalty of the frith people. At the same time it could not
be denied that there was distrust in the government among
the people of that country, and not only of this govern-
ment, but all governments of late years. The noble lord
said there were 30,000 troop in Ireland ; but they bud no
security that those troops would not be withdrawn in case
of • war. It was unjust, when they were calling for money
for fortifying England, that they would not allow Ireland
to be armed. If they would not permit the people to have
arms to protect themselves they ought not to tax them for
the defence of England.
Mr. HADFIELD was anxious that Ireland should be
placed on terms of equality with England in every respect.
It was admitted that the prosperity of Ireland was unpre-
cedented, and depending as he did on the loyalty of the
Irish people, he thought they ought .to be entrusted with
arms as much es the people of this country. He should
support the motion.
Loth ASHLEY considered that the best way of promoting
confidence was to avoid showing distrust. He held a com-
mission in the London Irish Volunteers, in which were men
of every shale of political opinion and of different religion,
vet all lived in harmony together. He therefore had no
fear that if volunteers were ruined in Ireland, of any such
result as the right hon. gentlemen had imagined. He hoped
the government would reconsider their decision between
this and next session, and that his honourable and gallant
friend, with that understanding, would withdraw his motion.
The house then divided. The numbers were :

For the motion BO
Against it B6-36
The motion was onnseqneatly lota.
1111.7811NE88 OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. W. EWART then rose to bring forward the follow-
jug series of resolutions respecting the business of the
house :

"That the discussion on the principle of a bill be confined
to the time of its introduction and second or third coding;
and that the Speaker (or chairman in committee) do enforce
such rule." . . _

"That when, on rt motion that the Speaker leave the
chair for going into a committee of supply, any discussion
or debate arise, such discussion or debate be not continued
beyond eight of the clock, and that the Speaker do then put
the question without further debate."
"That public bills which have been proceeded with in a
previous session tnay be resumed at the stage which they
left off at in the next session."

" That bills introduced by the government be, as far as
is practicable, brought on and moceeded with early in the
session." . .

"fiat it is expedient that the best means of improving
and expediting the business of the house be considered Lv
the government in the interval between the 'visions, with
a view to submitting the subject to the deliberation of a
select committee in the ensuing session of parliament."

On the first resolution being put,
Sir O. LEWIS, after some remarks upon the amount of
precious time lost in extraneous discussions, and upon the
difficulty of laying down indexible rules for the government
of debates, observed that it might be advisable from time
to time to appoint a committee to consider the subject, and
that such a committee might be appointed early next sea-
miest. In the meantime, ho thought it hardly worth while
to discuss the proposed resolutions.
In the discussion which followed,
Lord HOTHAM noticed the changes which bad taken
place in the mode of conducting business in his time, in the
frequent adjournment of debates, members delivering pre.
pared speeches who bad not heard the previous debate, or
attacking everybody and then leaving the house, and he
recommended a return to ancient practices.
Mr. EWART withdrew his motion.
The house was counted out at 25 minutes to 9 o'clock.

HEALTH or LONDON.—The return of births and
deaths in London, issued by the Registrar-General, states
that the deaths in Loudon last week were the same in
number as these of the previous week, viz.. 975. The
deaths have not reached a thou and in any of the four
weeks of July. except the second. The avemge number of
deities has been obtained for the weeks corresponding with
last week of the ten years 185049, and this, with a correc-
tion for increase of population, is 1,206 ; the actual number
returned is, therefore, less than the estimated amount by
231. As some explanation of a result apparently so favour-
able, it should he added that the high mortality suffered
during a great portion of this year. prematurely deprived
the population of many infirm but, chiefly, the
weather, though still cold for the season, has been more
favourable to health, and has therefore lightened the bills
of mortality. The returns have lately shown a small increase
in diarrhon. The weekly deaths in July from this com-
plaint were 12, 21, 32, and (last week) 52. Of these 52,
all except 5 were those of young children ; also two deaths
of infants were referred to cholera. Diarrhea and measles
were fatal in almost equal degrees ; for the latter disease
carried off 53 children. Measles seems to prevail chiefly in
I the East districts, in which 24 caaes were recorded. Pour
occurred in the sub-district Whitechapel North, 5 iu St.
Mary (St George-in-the-East), 3 in Ratcliff, 4 in the
Poplar district ; and on the south side of the river, 6 in the
district of St. Saviour. The Registrar rf St. Mary (St.
George-in.the•East) states that measles is maw very preva-
lent in his district ;of 24 deaths recorded by him in the last
fortnight a third part was caused by that complaint. Fatal
oases of small-pox have now declined to 7 in the week ;
there were 31 of scarlatina, and 4 of diphtheria Three in.
tante were murdered : a boy was suffocated on a brick-kiln
a young woman died of epilepsy from the habitnal use of
opium. Last week the births of 917 boys :aid S6B girls, in
all 1,785 children, were registered in London. In the ten
corresponding weeks of the years 18511859 the average
number was 1,534.
SOUTH KENSINGTON MUSECTIE. —During the week
ending July 28, the visitors have been as follows :
On Monday, Tuesday, and Saturday (free dam), 4,131 ;
on Monday and Tuesday (free evenings),
,03,11:41:9,0:13t.heFthrroonni
students' days (sdmisiinn to the public fel.), 1,843 ; one
etude:we' evening (Wednesday). 175:
the_9ssaing of the Museum, 1,567.tW
litzmbuiloft:yriaiostoiraPf
tireeticiorfeninjw Skooftztlt
gmlt.u3.72,umyelS2Bf :zN daily
3.87;
(May 12, 1858), 247,234.

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