The Express.
London, England, 1859-04-01 00:00:00

(Stamped ld. Additicmal.) [TWOPENCE.

Ur. GASZILL would ham been meted to give • 'Bent
We If be soda eattredy cenear either with the gmematent
tar Mk the mks Md. There were sane gene of the bill
ha BI net approve of; but he COW not vote
for the suniellos. It anneal to his to tube • fatre isms.
The etkellas of the amishmat would not be without ita
Mae lithe to the Wan or to the estuary; it would afford
to men of moderate opideas, by whatever party name they
21altechoose to MI themelms, time to form a juster
of their respendlilitlee, and to saerike their pr-
om) prekekne to Me public good.
Mr. BLANEY onks4 thanked the government kr
Emb.L.personal property • claim to reprenntatioe, Ned kr
rho franchise in counties; but, as the bill Brim
—elliked—..ahe freeholders in boroughs, and did not /um Ile
fnutabies for boroughs, be should vote for the rentlellm,
thrush be did not wish to destroy the bill.
Mr. B. EOEItTON, although there were mead pane al
the bill to which he objected, should vote for the mend
reading. The settlement of the question should her in
opinion, the great object to be sought.
COBBETT said he should vote for the mond reeks.
of the bill, which contained matters not found in any other
bill, and was not only wide in Its scope, but admitted of the
most extensive changes; it even opened the question of
voting b ballot. He regretted that it did not provide ft a
larger admission of the labouring ohms; but if the bill ma
bad in this respect, the resolution was quite bare; it Mil
nothing es to the &Minion of them clams
Mr. COLLINS had cisme to the conolaios that !ha real
object of the resolution now under ccesieloratka wee to
turn oat the resat government. He would sat the
Mufti ralfethis resolattra were adopted, would the
alums of a Edam Bill be Messed, Beery
I sere/Inow Stwealiset. (Yew, beer.) Zs
with those who thought that something ought to be done to
sank this question ; sad holding that view, he should give
hi vete against the resolution. (Hear, hear.)
WESTERN objected to the transfer of the county
Mem to the boroughs, even in those cases where the bill
wtald kirly operate as a transfer. The mischief would be,
that Ores voters in most eases would be non-residents. This
seat maid result—the resident electors haying au interest
in the sines of the borough would be swamped by the non-
redid voters. (Hear, hem.) There were other paellas'
of the wa noiny objectionable, but after the keg and able
debaleddi Ird taken place, he would net farther obtrude
on the attention of the house. He approved of the principle
enunciated in the resolution of the noble lord the member
for London, and should accordingly give It the support of his
vote.
Mr. HODOSON would vote against the resolution of the
noble lord. He could not but think that the bones had
not treated the goes 'scent with the &rhea/sacs which, mike
the circumstances attending this question, they deserved.
With respect to the bill, he did not men to say that he en-
tertained no objections to It, but he had no objection which
might not easily be removed in committee. (lieu, bear.)
Mr. WYVILL needed to support the second reeding of
the bill, because he thought it sight be made a good bill be
committee, and also because be believed that, if they rejected
It, it would be impossible to pass any measure of reform
during the preent session.
Mr. G. HUDSON complained that the resolution of the
noble lord, betides being unintelligible, men
mastery and unmet proceeding on the mood iZcof
a bill. He (Mr. Hudson) should vote against the motet on,
because he believed that it was not intended to
advance reform, but to be used as • mere
clap-trap for the purpose of defeating the MIL
The noble lord refused everything, and pledged himself to
nothing. He sought merely to entrap unsuspecting mem-
bers, and to get up a scramble for place, in the excitement of
white taken was sure to be forgotten. He (Mr. Hokum)
had never but once glean • vote to displace a government.
He bad not voted with the right bon. member for Ashton,
nor on the China question, nor in the militia division. Only
moos bad he given • vote maculated to displace a ministry.
Oa that creasica—the Coercion Bill division of 1846—be
voted with the sake lard the member for Leedom and Its
had bees mimed of his vets ever since. (A laugh.) His
nay 03101•11 to bind: was that be was then a young mem-
ber sad mheowing in the ways of the world. (Loud
.) should not spin follow the noble lord into
the far the sole purpose of turning out a ministry, to
whose maim of conducting the business of the
country every mesa who had risen in that debate had borne
wham. (Hear, hem.)
Mr. WALTER stated the reasons which induced him to
vote against the mod mediae of the bill, and to abstain
ken voting for the resolution. The distinctive principle of
the bill was the identity of the suffrage bet there had bees

Blurb use in, James 1., week sit Wirth as he way
saw what a great change had bra eithebed in the
mint of this country ; and when *dad Vat hy?
members of the Rouse of Common' he drilled ika them
Inueediately so many rare, became, he said, "I am about
to meet so many Hags." When the great diaper took place
hewer the Renee of Commons and Charles 1., the result
wee thatthere appeared to be a corbel victory of what le called
demonmey. But the reign of the saints was • very sear reign.
(A laugh.) The people got tired of the tants ; they reverted
ark to the old monarchy ; they called agar ,for a king.
Rower, they very shortly got rid of the line of the
ihrele ; and then, from the revolution of 1888 down he 1831,
there was s continual Increase of the power of the landed
poidskes of this country ; until at that time,
asendy In 1831, this eatudry use ruled by r reeler as
Ildilursey as ever governed any country in the world. At
Or Yrs, a noble lord papered in this house his oelebrated
Rehm B 111; and what did that Reform An do ? Not what
the dght hon. baronet the member for Carlisle says it did,
nem*, transfer per from the axietecreey to the middle
deem el this remby, but it shared the political power be-
twos the enieseneg sad the middle classes. (Cheers.)
And whet we mdt now to do, sir, is not to transfix political
power to say eras whatsoever, but to share the political
power with the miss at those who were, I say, wholly
omitted by the noble lord In 1831 end 1882,h.) trassielg, the
ankles dares of tide awry. eghern nth*
ash _I
Iwo Pid IV kW an the ale per Besideid des ewe '
lads Reform Aa, namely, the endiestra fres power of the
working three of this country. (Cheers) Now h= 1832 to
the present hour those working claws have been going on
increasing in intelligence, end manlfartieg throughout their
conduct not only intelligence, but virtue—(chess)—snd
thereby showing that they ere worth of being, what I hope
they will be_ yet in my time, of political cower.
(Cheers.) The next great blared of the noble lord Re-
form Act was, that although it went a peat way in the right
rw direc, yet it did not go the whole way, and it left in the
electoral heft a pester degree of Inequality than there ought
to east. Theadom I say that the two great adore we ought
to have ere to tithed the suffrage to the working classes, and
to replete the dlatribrion of the electoral bodies through-
out the kingdom. These are the objects, or ought to be, of
any Rebate Bill that attempts to reform the Reform Aet of
the noble lord. And now I have to inquire whether
the bill brought In by the right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Fairequer attains either of those two ends.
Why, sit, I should waste the time of the house if I said the
right hon. gentismen's bill extended the Beacham to the
working thaws. (Rear, hear.) It does • peat thing, I
believe, by Meeting to extra the franchiee in counties, bat
there it elope sheet; and I dr, who represent the greet body
of the working clears of this country—l, who virtually re-
past them—who repaaert a body living is the midst of
them, and who have picked oat by the noble lord as
representing them—l, who know somethieg of the working
claws, tell this house at onoe that the bill will do anything
bat give satisfaction to the working classes. (Cheers.)
And therefore I have only to consider what we eve
to do. Well, from the beginning of the debate,
I have heard the position advanced,—that if you pant
ee to the cl pewans, you swamp all other theses.
Now, is this true ?People do not make this important die-
trotian,—that the majority of the country or have no lit-
tered rimier to the interest of the country. (Chan.) If
you gave power to a minority, that minority may have
interests at variance with the interests of the merry ; but
the moment you take a majority, the majority cannot if
they underatesd their barer (honied cheer.) That
cheer shows me • very peat want of penpleediey. (Laughter.)
I say that the majority have no Inter-est is °maitre to that
of the whole country. It Is suppead that the worlds(
claws if endowed with power would swamp all the other
classes of the country. I will take sr single subject—a
subject which Is In the mind of the great body of the
clamor—the minimum el wages. Now tile la
sal
wages would be the most poundal mar of preventing the
accumulation of eapitaL The prevention of the atrumulatiou
of capitol word be more ralsolderns to the working ram
than to any other class. Thu I that the interests of the
working dames are not in Si those of the peat
body of the community. They may net ear their Wrest—
they may be misled, asl have sees parties whir in this
house—but their interest' aro identical with than of the
community. (Rear, hear.) Now thunder see the difference.
There wee a tints when political parr ruin the hands of

• contudon between identity _ equality eriffie
After pointing one provisions in the bill to which he
objected, ha chained that the government were about
to devolve upon the house the duty d making •
Reform Bill, which he did not think • proper muse
of proceeding. There were two distinct modes of
effecting the object of extending the suffrage—edible by
lowering the qualification of the suffrage or by a process of
selection—and the quad= was whether it was not better to
raise the people to the suffrage, by putting it within the
reach of the industrious workleg man. The whole question
of the suffrage WWI a serious and difficult one, and he did not
no
on what ground, if the franchise were reduced below 101.
they could *top short of household suffrage. He &build be
sorry, he said, if the result of this discuanon should be the
resisnaion of the ministry ; he maw no reason why they
should not withdraw this bill and Wag in another.
Mr. ORBBNALL intimated his intention of voting for
the second reading of the bill. The noble lord might perhaps
terry hie amendment by a small majority, and if ea he would
mooed In defeating a large and a great measure. If they
went into onamlttes on the measure they might so alter its
provisions as to preserve the franchke to all freeholders, and
admit a large menhir of persona within the electoral body
who were at present excluded.
Mr. GILPIN intended to vote foe the resolution of the
noble lord (J. Rural% if for no other reason, for that which
bed been stated by Mr. Gladstone as the reason why he voted
for the revolution of Mr. M. Gibson, vie., that he could not
say to to a resolution which wee as true as the gospel.
Another reason why he should vote against going into com-
mittee upon this bill, which he imagined would bathe WOW
queues of the defeat of the Noble Ines moieties, was that
he could sot regard the seassure as • Reform Bill in say
repent, and if the queetion were put to him whether he
would rather bays this biU or no bill at all he would answer
unhesitatingly "No bill at all." (Cheers.) It was mid,
"Let vs go into occomittes end amend the bill "—(heer,
hear)—but they had not been told if they did so that the
government would adopt It in its altered form when they
came out of c =mitts°. He did not mean by his rotator
.

• amen elms. That elms had a distinct Interest opposed to
the Wrest of the community. And how did they employ
la Is Nokia, dear bread all over the country for t&
evainterest : and only ekes you extended political power
lle middle clams have they have been abie
to best down the aristocratic monopoly. (Hear, hear.)
Well, then, I say the great /coding point mast never
be left out of ooneideration— namely, that if power IA given
to the majority of the country, the majority have no interest
in misusing that power • that power conferred on the mino-
rity will be misused, become the minority have en interest
fa inimaing it. But are we to be told that the working
classes of this country will not follow the intelligent guiding
men of this country ? I want to know whet it is that
has covered every ma with your ships, that ban filled every
mart with your productions, that has made England what
the le ? It is the merchant and the intelligent body of the
working deism. It is those millions whom you have ex-
cluded from political power who have made you whet you
are. Give them power, make them what they ought to be,
and they will malt, not rhyme you. You will be greater
than ever. (Hoer.) That is the reason why 1 desire poli-
tical power for the working chasm of this country—not that
rhole,will see any great alteration In the composition of the
but because you will take away from the working
deems their canes of discontent, the belief that they
were
tuenCtly treated ; and you will have • more
minim • more united, and • mire virtuous
I people. oar, hem.) That being the end, I have now
to emeider the mesas. And here lam shoot to digit. from
I many of my political friends, and more especielly am I about
to differ from my hon, friend the member for Birmingham.
(Laughter.) Ile believes that from this bill you can get no
good. I le if the government is wise, you can get great
lime,
good from it. And I would make a suggestion to my hon.
friend, which perhaps may not have struck his mind that
he has not • monopoly either of political intelligence or
political virtue. (laughter and.theers.) No matt can have
• higher esteem for the wonderful abilities of my hon. friend
than I have. He is • great orator—l wee going to say, the
greatest orator I have ever men—but I do not coeskler him
' " If he had combined the

this mason to express want of cull:knee in the government
inapt on this question of reform. Like the hon. member
for Halifax he did not went to see a change of government at
preeent, or to wittiest again the humiliating eprctsole of
liberal leaders within a fortnight of their advent to power
claiming the aid of the tory party against the principles
which were advocated by their own suppotters. (Hear, leer.)
Mr. HENLEY Raid he had %Mud with great attention
to the whole of the debate, sod if he had heard anythlog to
shake hie opinion he ehould not hesitate to say so. This wag,
in Ms °paten, a very terse meanie—large in Ruff and to
the principle it centeised. Hs proceeded to analyse the
bill with great minuteness of criticism, stating his objectless
to it. In considering the amendment, which was the reel
question Wore the boo., he °hearted that the first part of
the resolution was met by the clause, brought forward by
the government ; and the last put was as vague
as potsitle, so much eo that no human being could
assign any dentate meaning to it. Thin, what did ths Go-
vernment say f If be interpreted it rightly, they had said u
much as they could be expected to fay, sod es much as
would relieve the house from any difficulty in voting for the
second reading of the bill. He wee wady to go into com-
mittee upon it, and he hoped, when it got there, the opinions
of the house would have their weight with the government,
and that the bill would be put into a shape that would satisfy
the more moderate people—all would not be ratielled with
say measure. He concluded with a strong deunciation of
all champs that would aseirailate our mixed constitution to
that of Armies on the one hand, or that of France on the
other.
Mr. ROEBUCK—Sir, no one estimates more highly than
I do the impartial:4:i of the subject we ere now discussing. In
the many years I have been in parliament no such great
subject his ever occupied our attention. Other matters may
have had a momentary importance, Lut they have bees cir-
cumscribed in l oint of time, end in the extent of their opera-
tin. But the alteration you seek now to effect is an altera-
tion In the constitution of this country. The sets el this
house influence the destinies of the whole world; sad there-
fore the act which we are now about considering is an set
that influences the happiness of metaled. This is why I
wish, if possible—not to put en end to this subject, for an end
to it we cannot put; but I want to go forward. My object is
to obtain what reform I can ; and the quell= that I sal

a greet stateensan. (Legalese.)
two qualillostime, he might have ruled this eountry ; but
the power of speed' which my boa. friend poetesses is not
aided and piloted by that pofi wisdom which alone can
give powir in this country. (Heat hear.) I have to ask
how ran the present bill rendered moat servkaable in at-
taining the end of conferring power upon the great body of
my countrymen f Shall we be thrown on the more" of the
government? Shall we be thrown on the tender morales of
the noble lord the member for Tiverton, or on the mercy of
the noble lord near me (Lord J. Russell) ? With regard to
the noble lord the member for Tiverton, I must say that I do
not believe in him as a 'Wormer. (Cheese and laughter.)
Some years ago I had a much higher opinion of that noble
lord's abilities and power to do good than I hove now. And
my rams was then, that when the noble lord was not to
power be manifested the most liberal intentions; but when
in power be became as great a monopolist as any man that
I ever saw ruling this country in my time. (Cheers and
laughtt r.) He would have been thought worthy of power if
' he had never attained it; but by the exercise of dominion ho
has eat/rely, in my mind, uofitted himself from ever being
returned to power again. (Cheers aid laughter.) I now
come to the noble lord the member for the City, who puts me
in mind of a Chimes lady's foot—Oeughter)—which has been
so swathed and bound that although it to her
a thing beautiful end admirable, it does not help
her on. The noble lord'a mind has lams so
swathed end bound by party conaiderstioes that it is
unlit kr the government of this great country. (Chien sad
laughter.) I gather from the noble lord's weer this
opinton—that Be&and is an appanage for wilt* politicians--
that good government cannot be expected from any clue bat
tbo whige—(laughter); and he hopes, I believe I do not un-
fairly nab it, that to our time, and in hie time, he will see
them again in power. I believe that although great ad.
canoes were made by the noble lord, more particularly In
1831 and 1832, yet in the month Mate of things we an get a
bettor government than say that on be formed by either the
noble lord the member for Timers, or the no lord the
member Mir the City. (Cheers.) And until we an bring
together the united forces of the great Seers] party, I wool
rather have Neediness on that beech (pointing to the minis-
terial bench)—weakama is there—(laughter)-1 am speaking
politically, I sty I mould rather see west We there than
ham the noble lard the member for Tiverton back, with alt
his entigemos and insoleece. ((Cheers and laushier, and
" Oh, oh.") I esgin thst U honourable g.nt'emen
. , - .

-,
tint ;Wile —o:6COili- Sin WOW ziaa '
la the .• ftefti ftJftty— • isli pert? thehoitse , waltz . ~ _
, . la the Tamar I have mg-
vete; •t the popular we!, Pep could he .3 sherd ellsed; art eart vote with the noble lord and the myself b., is what way can I best ob-tain that reform ? cipps,sits--- sit'," the
ami 'modified u to asstpose vital be could ad ellomde bemuse he believed that on lids oo• There ir, sir, • matter now before the bone, and that rated they will be much more likely to c wry a measure
but Meld am the comassastka of • mimosa emestrephe. NOM lb* conduct was governed by the purest motives. As mat,. fa 'woad, vast is it that we are about, We are through the Home of lords than the noble lord would be.
(lime.) The gelation at Ism was not giterdy ems se to the El ss be was individually concerned, be bed shown he about to reform the Reorm Act. Then we lave got I believe tad ld tin Was of the light hon. good•rded (the
deices of rival matmeseb lean saw me weda eobsebetteb was me prepared to Five np to party hie
right of jadgment (S .
mut.
aatanto
__... Chexteeller of the Exchequer) the muss of reform Is more
delis morntry and of its repreemistlot kabalism mere in =nt ccrestlons On two very greet occasions, be bed two inquiries to melee—whet er'd" likely so be advanced than ha any other hands I would
judgment before them. Let them Mho sem thallium • de- as vouch individually as any man to disci.", the what miens shall we take to attain the end we desire? Now, entreat the boom for • moment to put aside party onexidora-
she of reckless innovation they wan net hail to matlermthe Broloodellt, although he had felt the deepest egret at being air, I will at once apply myself to three two natters; sad I time, sad to look the matter fairly in the fee. e. The noble
that fabric which it had bans theme:6ton of se may doter ebb* is to himself from • statesmen for whom be
assa to rem and to foster. Let them Mato con Oat hybseedag redollehlad es warmest sympathy en public ground?, and tell la the mouser I have suggested. But if they do accept
have too much respect fort he Dear to oomph flask gambol, lord Ws me that bon. gentlemen opposite wit. not ate
the
ebb chewm
Ii balm the er• of dm, peat ebbegiebbine,. eat,e,,,,...., bat," of personal email- fee along. time st this period of the debate; I will stay nobk, lord ine„..,,s them!
tow alterations why should not the
Petherfng with le in • delMe senee,itdif not beams omat wok TEM/ bad hoes Mated with the difference
Inof brevity se much es I ma. The Roam of Commons, from
Whit& they "void Sod tt i, sa dm. Mier. boo ea lad ems et tie bets" bat they would see that n the very day of Bs establishment, has beta in &Mate of ma- t country totter than they eat. I have en doubt that is
The eight boa. breast the sesseiter der Clielae, la the the Moak of • pod aids tiny mom be %did, with the 'bat ductamloa sad change. Now it has changed as to. ohs acids lard's view. tiled mei littoral fm him to think so,
mem of cos of the MOM able bet st= =bee =s• ef two ge dame desesers. They_ would not gelds tie 050 Waimea in the state; now it bag thaw& as sad I dare Mir the addle Webraa" ea ow me and gay.
(Lbw, beer.) No cloud the noble lord flasks be ma govern
wiled be ewer addremod to Ilm la dyad hltbihl Is the prisolphe walla bed mule that I think I could govern lb. country, 1 t
agar& the poisons who elect it. For many yasnthe Home
=lam ef this gradual appraise of baarresha, se: lb, pad Ilhersl peep be eesegobsd as the wan di FOSE _ ledge that Ido thhth ie. (Loud ..z.v.....4......z.t,....0.
be
brew ebbe me new tin maw ads mplaft • tip mum Nimes Ins .. Oak 0.1.1" and Fang of Commode was the humtds handmaid el ths Roam of boecomm that I shall never he tr ,
Ilie hem he ME* g " MONO _MEd' bat be de thir pledlbil, sod Eoll Eroaed IEII gm the Lords. Bat the Howe of Lords took to themeless the pm- antral is that pertioular will permit, forfeited. ted. (Laughter.)
P.M Ed amide de woo. ba Ell bloodefresrbos 00 Wee dedaidro•E the 'dialler*, Mehl". with
~tild UP._ um._ ..„.1.5 thee of main one soother's throat, ; sea when the Tudor nth" " *ha IM s
now— ° V". ..! Wag EtE Mad
• bead ass le sinks • mealy Wow fa damn el their lasdta- dEholds mush wcaldwirE them, M. sureties to an issue now tu we raw the great
think MA preferred to what tbe example of the asakat eelthefillielhe_,
~ wodeettf ._ emold
weloores the were al lie then MI the unlit of all the attempt end ell the p"• of of reform at lied one step—sad helm abet* that
geeeige, sly
gagelotlee himself ia the dignity of his essatoriel tos reseesum, the pews would recognise the Vai' gal erica et the kings of the Tudor line woe to when
toa t adi
pWine to
We be widths oar(C power—• bettor gomabbese
nine, sal swain tin boo wish orgasm egmhy sad la- Eleitialft• ef AM here. OEll'O the pow of the rest noble at this onalry. Wh&WUhe for the eople of ccastry. hime.)