The Express.
London, England, 1858-06-15 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 15, 1858.

try =2.erotart wirTrisireert ha this omen-
would
Ltieff°7...rttr
to -se i 564.0. of such constituency, and W
their
eximpelense *Forbes the deity which would devolve finest
nes he need not one any argument, tsar upon that point the
commines could form its own judgment'. He would merely
Serve that such • conatimmacy woufd import • large
mist ef personal interest into Indian affairs—a large
I aimimt of experience of Indian admlnistra'tion, and, what
priiiimhape of no lee importance, an entire freedom from
Mee (Hear.) It the elective Find* wonadapted, that was the Feeseel oematinscy which he should
=and which be would now ben the coestinittes to
lire. (Hear, her.)
Lad J. RUIRMILL said the noble bid bed made a very
fob atatemeat to the conamithe on this Important subject, I
bet whist did set require any very lengthened seventeen
They ha, on the one head, this essestien of the noble
lord, and on the other hand they of
the pre-
pukka a the appointmeat of the sosnicil by the
crown—• mode of appointees& which the government
themselves adopted for part of the euse
l& It was the re-
gular end constitutional mode of applialiment in this
monaeohy that when appointmenes te the executive were
made they sh
oulddto made by the sewn er the responsible
miens of the crown. (Hear, laser.) When appointments
of this Mad were made, whetter of jams or other aniestive
one.., everybody knew from whom die appointment eon-
sate& and by wham advice woe gives to tie crown. If an
ineospeteut parson was appointed, the Rime Minister or
the heel of the department from whom the appointment
nlremss4
ble Ts
here was theribre a menatitatiesal
tofirmfatikff ine 111 slit eelpelnimint w
,By the Ana Nina amnia swan altwepoietreenaste
to the But India Board see given to the crows Five ap-
pointment, wen mode under that eat, end se one that he
was awnee of found fault with the Similes meth by the
crow'. (Hear, hear.) At all rests, the kb President of
the Beerd of Carrel had not found halt with them nor
their other Gelber= at the India Bond. (Hew.) He did
not know that it had ever been said that the appointments
of judges, the heeds of the MOM and c'an's
departments had been unduly made; and for this nests
that the muster of the crown felt that • heavy responsi-
bility rested on him if an improper selection had been made.
The noble lord pointed out some of the objections to nomi-
nation. Objections might of course be made to any mode
of appointment, but in all these things they mast only
Minos convenienceand thoonventence. He did not think
that nomination daring good behaviour, or fur a longer or
shorter term of years, which was the mode of nomination
chosen by the present goverment themselves, would be
open to such inconvenience and be so injurious to the council
as the mode now proposed by the government. (Hear.) It
was one thing to keep up the old machinery when the old
machinery existed, and he could understand the argument of
thou who said the advantage of it was so great that
they would not risk a change. Bat when the
house decided that • change was desirable he ven-
tured to submit to the c Annette. that they ought
to make it complete, and not take • piece of one system sad
piece of another system, and try to dovetail them together.
(Hear, hear.) There was consistency and identity of interests
in the old system, when the East India were
trader', and flourished as trade prospered,-
and decayed as
trade decayed. Bat when, in 1833 thenets eared, and
the proprietor* of East India stock had their di
secured to them in each a manner that the prosperity or
failure of the Indian trade hardly affected their pcietion, the
poetise of the Rut India propnetore beaus very different.
They had • three per net, stock in this country, the value of
which depended very much on the prosperity of the country,
but no man would my that the proprietors of the three per
cent. stock should elect a certain number of the Cabinet of
this country. (Hear.) There would be quite as muck in-
congruity and absurdity in making the pro siethn of East
India stock elect a part of the Indian Cosa, The holden
of railway stock appeared to him as little lea to be electors
of the council as the proprietors of East India stock. They
never were known to have taken any part in the government of
India • they were guaranteed the money they advised,
they lied no direct interest in the government of India, and
whatever interest they had might be supposed to lie in the ,
direction of imposing greater burdens so as to secure god
dividends to themselves. (Hear.) With regard to the re-
tired
commissioned officers resident in this country, some of
that clam might take an interest In the affairs of India, but
the greater part of them, though resident in India, and serving
in India, did not maces themselves, and had no manner of
interest in the ppereseoonns, who were most competent to govern
India. He naissutood that then were 400 ladies who were
proprietors of Ban India Stock. He had no meat objection
to their introduction, but it was • meet principle to intro-
• into the government of India- (Hear, hear.) The
Seedy Atoned that the natant of
17a7:7"hould be changed, and he should ocesider irrlZ
augury for good government in the future if they took three
who had been heretofore the nominators of the govern-
ment of India as the future constituency of India.
The commlittes should consider the evil which would follow
from the proposition. The directors would have the same
share of patronage that they heretofore had. Peruse of
very great weight very much objected to the mode of pay-
ing the directors by patronage. Lord W. Benthick, Lad
Macaalay, and Mr. Trevelysn, parses' of great Indian sp..
tidos proleated against their being paid by patronage; and
he saw by the papers of that day that Sir J. Lawrence was
of °ends that all appointments in India, whether civil or
military, should be made by competitive examination. He
(Loyd J. Hassell) cams to the conclusion that, if the noble
lord succeeded in his proposition of naming ten out of the
litem, weight or six, oat of the members of the council by
mesas of this representative body, he would be giving rise to
a system of corruption which would be very injurious to the
tenni interests of India. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
end that this body was so numerous and so separate that
comvaming would not take place ; but there would be means
band out of circulating letters and engaging the votes of the
constituency ; and there was danger that the patronage of ,
the members would be distributed among,' the cuisine mey
that elected them. (Hear, hew.) Hs was of opinion that
the nominetion should he by the crown, which appeared to
him to he the most effectual mode of securing the ladepan-
dens of the council. (Hear, tear.) The noels lord OM- I
eluded by moving that it wee t that the members of
the council should be nominated y her Majesty. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that if there was to be • change,
he would make as small • change as possible, end would
therefore have a waned as nearly resembling the court of
directors ea it could he made consistently with the expressed ,
pion of the house; he therefore thought that the council
be nominated in the bill, and should be taken from
the present oourt of directors. They should have large re-
tiring pensions and ma maple nlary. The present wart of
directors having been partly elected, the principle of election
wee to some extent preened, but be was not premed to
carry it further. First-rate men coming from India would
shrink from undergoing the toil and annoyance of • canvass.
Hs would not, on the other hand, support a staple noreine
non by the crown. He should propose that the,, names
were selected by the president and council and OM of these
selected by the crow' and the two houses of partlement.
Sir G. C. LBW 1S 'Avesta a nominated eons ill as lately
to lead to the formation of a more fitting and reseetable
council. He should, therefore, support the amendment.
Sir B. PERRY should give his most decided opposition
to any propuition for taking the council from the court of
directors.

HERBERT oould not approve of the resolution,
width would give them all the mischiefs of election without
the advantage of representation. The proposition of 81r J.
Graham would, he thought, meet all difficulties, end he
hoped It world be
Sir H. WILLOaterAY, likewise. thought Cho nigger
don of Bir J. Graham plausible and better than any yet
proposed. He preferred a council partly elective to can
wholly nominative.
Mr. LIDDELL hoped that the moral check of uh-
lkity would not be abandoned tie regarded the
of tbscouncil.

--
LoniOOI:IERICH did not think that the boat wan
for the council would be obtained by roaans at a popular
election.

Mr. M. BAILLIE Advocated the electtve priaciple, con-
tending that Sloss intarmead in Indian alike ought to be
rspreesated.
After some further diacossios, in wh,.cit Ms. V. Smith, Mr.
C. Brom. ea Colonel Sykes took print,
Lord STANLEY said It might be deekable 14 after the
diaconate which had takes plena, be abada my a new words
in explanation. (Bea) Whey be atimellted to the com-
mittee the alsedaa which *roamed to aim against the
adoption of the lead* of exteadve amitatioa, he wired
the imamate, to anddrz at ea ellenmaire prepaid= the
imeability of eleyileti the thellee prital*la the WWl= of
a port of the eon If the euem desibd fa amour of
.theze. of *Awke Have met be a eiordemeey, sad he
Mr wales when they wms to look
for that acciatewey was a quaka which mast
be eiteataill rad he wilily eleimel that it vat
oat Ate h 111 net *bait of ea New. Hsi 11111111athily
er.ilawasey. (Beer.) la etampilay, bewever, mower,
that queollea. M mailleal the arallbeeasy width Ina
tireeliod ea la the bill lateedesed ear Owe op by the
=iirrerearat, WWI the enholee of eat dent width
t aeon to le Imam* reettred ivy the beam He
saw sort le *pe the gevermeet the earehemelle
=tHo did not at ell deny the
at Tay et awl pia al OM eat. at. Phelftay
et mig ...I rave, and eg-thet Melted to day that
etmlaelmileg the eleestioes white led beat slated rid
thilleeekke whet bed beta rated net, the of
pored &Ma or ens whist) dearred tembi Zed
fat thee ad add reatettele of ems kind eat ef Ai& a
orstearray Ea& ho eeffisamoted. (11p2.) wee Dot et
leasemy ire they amid tn.* 'mead the War of the
rattiallea Id= the terazietea, what wee la sad that
talb =minted peaty detteL The
,eod it'smaies- able Verdi WO elm - He decimal
• 1=64 Paddy* Het sr pbe4i. 4•Ca011 did sot
lev7l selpb rapreen (Heti, boar Wirt
hi lissoi WOO ye Nark ow.. ;um *ma be daybed
/at the panel* er ea sad usamstralled amdestics
by the soldtar et He am. (0h0...) Ala 111/11,1160

council was the end ; the election of the comeoll was only •
menusbe attained.
(CluersitiTarirtsw;4onhePlolhestied been models the course
of the ; but the -one suggested by the right hon.
barrio.. (Sir J. Graham) really bivalved the principle of elec-
tion, bemuse it provided drat every member of the cotuscil
should be in some sense elected, subject to the approval of
the crown. That proposition wits somewhat complicated in its
deceits ; and he (the noble lord) must not be understood as
expressing the orient of the government to it ; but what he
meant to say was, that that propoidtion, or any propoeition
of an analogous character, did undoubtedly fall within the
scope and words of the resolution now before the esnmdent;
so that the government in proposing that resolution led net
in Lea pledged thineelves wenn the adcpffien el the
right_ geedisema's iwiheet, or gay other apeilint el
a Vella kW, swift* thee le 'nosh be found la
les worneg. (Chine.) The house would not the
selves by tide rembillen to may particular er to
say eamitimensy se ell, if upon the whole the isiseaviintes
silt shield eneed the edveniege it eared. All tbag desired
was, that Ines shield be sem shoe placed upon se moon-
nailed isennenin et the arena, and that there. should be
some
(Lend ether piny te be onsulted besides the minister for
ImNa
asses )
Viscount P ALMIIIBTON said it was Rube Misr, from
the toes of the noble kod's mess * that Milne lie
of the aim:dose to the thiliniat onteinnens=
hod beam pespend wen inn thee be wee not
prepared to be seen the bones wisping these MIMI.,
enemies. (Hear.) He scald not wasur with tin mai*
lord is thinking that the eight hon. baronet (Sir J. (ivehies)
bad proposed en sevengement which wank solve lir INS-
inlay ; lei indeed hie fled be.. gentleman's epee& Wed file
vote he had enneuneed Ida Inese, to give were linedifp la
bonny. The ben, Ruthenia bed mar ingnsd
the et diens ; but he eel/ le wean wile
gotoatdaysembodied en primed* ; sedi lima be
lessestelemey by silaglng that the al Grebe
crown, eneerlin M ble proposal, would rest upon emmilers
of the present Omit of Directors who had ban eiseled. Bat
that wasp/Min rather a strain upon hognege ; the crown
was to nendnote the maned, and it mattered liede whether
they wens now wean of the bawd or not. (Ham, hear.)
Whether the emmellies Audi be chosen from mating the
present directing' WY 1111.17 a sender for the discretion of
the mown, ewes/ft Mel the principle of nomination
crie. adopted in pesinre
auto election.
.1010.3
In miss tame mesaa a
chosen by trio provident an vacancies yd
end admiusi by then to the mown • out of which names it
should nuke the mashes by the advise of a responsible
minister—that um, Ohm widened the council himself.
(Hear, hest.) flupLestatitt the praddent was paramunt
in the council, then from three names nominao tun
ed
lashimself would be a men form ; but supposing that for
Phe should only regarded es one of the 16 mem-
bers of council, and thank,' liable ee be overruled, then it
wee plain that if they spud to the mesal they would
establish the principle of in the matter
of the old municipalities mow= so objectionable that
it had been abolished by a yield est el perliament. (Hear,
hear.) The country had new govennint which prided
itself on itsprogressive sdesommonoill; but thee government
was now advised 1&;.= ben gentimoan who also prided
himself on the easseeler of his opinions, to go
back, Heaven hilW NNW years, and re cetablish
a principle which had hem isithereally seeded. (Cheers.)
He (the noble viscount) would beg the noble lard to consider
that we were fortunate enough to Bud ourselves under a
oonetitutional government end not under a republic. (Heer,
hear.) Now, We first principle of constitutional monarchy
was that every act of the administration should be dome
under the advice of a minister, who should be responeible Is
parliament for it ; bat an elective council such as hied been
proposed would neither be appointed by a responsible minis-
ter nor elected by a popular oonatituenzy. It would thus be
a complete departure from a fundamental principle of our
constitution. On the one hand, the house would be abolish-
ing the Court of Directors because it was an irresponsible
body; and on the other hand, it would be establishing
another irresponsible and wholly anomalous body to take
charge of the government of India. (Hear.) Instead of
doing that it would to far better to continue the present state
of things until parliament should be better advised.
(Hear, hem.) Again, the proposition of the right
hon. gentleman went to the whole future romped-
tion of the council. What then would become of that
principle in the act of HIM, to which the right hon. gentle-
man was • consenting party, namely, the nomination of a
portion of the board—a principle which the right hon. gentle-
man had supported on the ground that the nominee* would
form • nucleus for the future transference of the government
of India to the crown? (Hear, hear.) He (the noble
viscount) did not think that they ought to establish a body
by which the minister should be ovemiled, or thwarted, or
to which he could point as en moms whenever the govern-
ment of India was called in questkin. (Hear, hear.) It was
said that the ooturcillors ought not to be appointed by the
crown for fear they should not be independent. Sorely the
office of a judge was of not less Importance than
that of a councillor for India ; but was it found ascirsasry
to pleas the appointment of each new judge in the hands of
the bench P (Hear hear.) He (the noble viscount) must
confers that, is respect of some of these questions be sad the
right Jan barren were the antipodes of each other ; bat he
hoped the house would reject • proposal which be immidered
would be • perpeMal source of inconvenience. (Hear, beer.)
Mr. OLADSTON B objected to the extension of the pun-
t:4le either of election or nomination. He thought the sug-
gestion of Sir J. Graham well worthy the attention of the
house. He should support the *violation, an involving lower
difficulties than the amendment.

Mr. ROEBUCK said the real question wee that of res•
ponsibeility or nos-reeponsitily. As the rewind= seemed to
evade this question, he should vote aping it.
Sir F. BARING should vote for the resolution after the
explanation of Lord Stanley, as they did not bind themselves
to any particular form of election.
Lord J. RUSSELL begged the house to have some definite
sadentanding upon the vote they were about to give. The
proposition of Sir J. Graham wee virtually at variance with
the resolution.
Sir J. GRAHAM defended his proposition from the
ahatge of creating a self-elected council, and other objections
brought against it. To agree to the resolution pledged the
house to nothing, simply disclaiming the principle of pure
norninatkm.

Sir C. WOOD thought that if they intended to adopt the
proposition brought forward daring the debate, they should
negative the principle of pare nomination, and leave the
resolution for future disenaelon.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the resolution bound the committee to no oonatituency, or
say definite plan of election. All to which the house pledged
Itself was that the council should consist of mixed elements.
The committee the, divided—
For the arnandueent
Against it
toad GODERICH thought that in the prevent state of
the contsoitiae it was desirable that they should not proceed
farther. (Hear, hear.) He would put it to her Majesty's
government whether they should not take till the next night
to consider whether or not they would adopt the proposition
of the tight hon. baronet the member for Carlisle. He
would more that the chairman report P"gresL

Mr. BARROW said the gneetloxi wei whether the prin-
ciple of siession should be adopted or not. (Rear, hoar)
That question having been fully debated, he saw so advan-
tage in delay
After a few words from Mr. &cm, whisk ware so meth
intaryuptad as to be nearly Inandilne,

--171e-ZOQD-li tee -di
For reporters progress 166
Against it
The Clutha* then pox the govern:neat resolution,
No. 6, namely, " That with • view to the ealcancy and in-
emsedenee of the council, It is expedient that It should be
pertly 'Dominative and partly elective."
Lord .1. RUSSELL said he thought that, in ainforreity
with the euggestioe of the right iter gentleman the member
for the University of Oxford, the government should tab
thee to onabler what course they would take. (" No, no.")
If the oommittes divided on this neolution, he itrould cer•
telly vote s going it, but he hoped they would not put the
house to the trouble of Mold*.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid he
wished that, before they adjourned these proosedings, the
government should clearly reader teed what they had done
that night. The committee bed declared by a large majority
that they did act approve of the cowed lining mar* nomi-
nated by the crown. (Cheers.) As they had advanced so
fee, It was clear that the elements of the council must be of
a mixed nature, in dedesnoe to the decision of the committee.
The resolution before them only called up* the committee
to emotion that principle, and he thought it was but reason-
able, therefore, that It should be disposed of.
Lewd J. RUSSELL wished to know whether the right
hem gentlemen Intended to propene, at the next meeting of
the home, the Ithreidifies.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the 6th
reseintiee would precede the 7th. (Laughter from the
Xleisteriel bseelme.) At the next meeting of the committee
it would be the duty el the goverment to offer a resolution
to earry lee Gist the ressket rimed that night (Hew.)
Residadan No. 6 wee thee screed to, the p=ol it
big followed by lewd cheers :rem the minielmisi
The C 1•11111•711 then
PEACE PILESERV'erredIOIIi(aLAND) BILL.
On the 'order of the day fer the mend readag of this bill,
Mr. BAGWELL mid he Mt it its duty le 'ppm, the bill,
wltlek was otairmy to the pried*. at Nbuty earAblubed fn
t*nie weak,. The prevision to whir* be reTteleily obtseesg
wee, tbrit if disterbeinee re grime bed mereemeteg
say peek the Lord Ithetter,nt meg% amd
purist rimy umber of pollee thee be peered. There Wei se
urea eyelet wham • sonvidise 'ebbe eet be ebeekei..A.,.
seek a OW* el Ihip se thst tern edgbA ewe e. 17;
time la the history ed I:Sbi when seek a provision was
emery, but it Are WA so now.
Lord N Alt.s mid there IMO many diekkite in Inland ta
with* it was alwohlir rotwooty to otwillwa for two row
setwo.the yevitheeef this sot. The JO did net Werth*
with the whohloloatha at the law le beim& Namely
WOWS ibe liai4diratessas• owls Webb to him WI