The Express.
London, England, 1858-02-06 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY el 1813.

Ow portal lb emomMlOomata be hilt dr ply proemial 10 the ps-
woomeoat he bawled rode this peevish. be lb* Haw
hmt Tb etellomai d the boa . wombs. he Pee* that tin
=Opel Hamad' bad been able be =be lee bile
IL am loolopeta. woe ealleimat la jwift We vela le
go mind awl the Who d womoW awl bum
Doe he held god It ma Pio whim la eased the
Ameba ef ma's Ilea to tin swim of theie awastry like
Ira of Gamed Etereleek, that that families should he pro-
wklai be dear their deaths. He did not think It desirable
Mai vet 'Mem should 6e Lactuaberol with smith, bat ft
bed be.. hag fit Peet it wrie • wise plod* that the maw
try Anil molds he the families el theme who bad dean
pod moryleme mod whited their lies. foe tbak erreaby mod se
reins the =dab of such awn hew their skid . If
Omani laaveleak bad bees presarral, at weld bane twiera
whet hie tersely was dooms he his lassily. such • outage
would have ham mete coaggaial to his iselings than say
penowd 1011111FIL
The CHANCHUGH el the EXCHWICER said he
thought it right toremeas • nimpprelesetion. natter while
the mottle wieber tw Deviate bhogirw.f. what he thought
that the pesisment had awed precipitately, and that the
beam was sow in committee on • bill foe martyr ea
eassiel, to Lady Havelock and Major Havelock. The teeth
wee that the her was In the first stage of such • bill, nil.
• reseleama cm which a bill wee to he treaded. Thwolime,
If the hoes. member wished to make say rearelte
es this abject ke would have ample opportunity in the
bean stages Oi the bid. Ile wished also to remove a strange
nenederstanAire, by the btu. member for Lambeth, of the
lesart+ bad toed.. The hon. member underst.s.l that
be laid the c-rt and of the ',solution aide no the pe.....uel
merits of Id.) fr Havelock, and irrespective of the seine. • of
his lamented tither. whereat he thought that be hid do-
ttelly rated tbs. he tolieved that the hoses would hen
ranted this anatomy t the son of General liavvlork, wholly
intorte. tin of bte per...nal went,. The original pritpositton
was Ste an snooty to Gruel-al Havelock only; and ir was the
expreseel sirb 01 the house that it should be continued to
his sou that is, that it should he greeted for two
lives. The government a:retied to the wish of the
house. but that was at the onginal proposition. Siam
that understanding had been come to, the lainereed death of
General Havelock had become known, and the poition of
things had changed, and it was thought that the original in-
tention she uld not be carried tot" effort and it became his
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) duty to submit to the
booms a dtiferent resolution, tinning out the spirit of the
wishes of the house ; and he bad said that Irrespective of 1
the pentane! menu of the present Sir Henry Havelock
it wood no doubt be the desire of the hone* that
it should be carried nut Bat he thought it MOs-
nary to add that the present Sir Henry Havelock
wee not an indictee; inactive recipient of this reward, but
by his vigour and consummate courage had tensed for him-
self an honounstlo petition in the at my. He did nit wan
to say that the.. were on other officer. as brave sad distin-
enithed, bat that Major Illawlork was didinamished for his
prrional merits. Them were the grounds of his Mawr.-
Sons, which he did not think were irrelevant to the ques-
tion. (Hear. beer.)
Mr. INGRAM said that every one must agree that this
penmen was rightly given, but he thought it ought to he
charged on the revenues of ladle. There were two parries to
these passions, those who received end these who paid them.
He thought that the people who had stirred up the insur•
nertios ought to feel its affects and to pay for it. The pen-
elon to Lewd Dalhousie was charged on the revenues of
India, sad why should not this be paid from the some source?
At the same time he was far from saying that Major Have-
lock did not richly dawn It.
The CHANCELLOR ef the EXCHEQUER said that It
was always the ease that officers lathe Gasses service should
have their pensions charged on the onnanlidated fund..
It wee so In the ear of Lord Gough, Lord Harding,. and
others. With regard to officers In the service of the East
India Company, the custom was to grant pensions charged
on the revenues of India ; and lathe case of General Wilson,
who had received the same pension se General Havelock, it
was eharzed ou the revenues of the East India Company.
Yea. GRIFFITH said he had no fault to But with the
government for the proposition they had med.., for no one
sympathised more in the sralleetde of that greet man thin
he did bat it did bappm last mains that the forms of the
house precluded diecusion on the subject.
The resolution was this agreed to, and tho donee
resamed.

MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
11r. H. HERBERT mead that ha had introduced this bill
the invl7 Put of tb• Steldoe. but se ha had received many
ions on the bject, ha thought it better to withdraw
= su
and introduce another. He. therefore, moved that
the order tor the aimed mallet be &ft-lunged.

EAST INDIA LOAN':
Mr. 1. SMITH, who wee ledietheetly heard, rose
to awe for have to lerlat la a bill "kr tesbliag
the East ladle Comp ay to raise mangy to the United
Ilmsdom kw the envie* of the Clovernment of India."
He mid that the bill arida It• rem for the purpose of salting
leave to Intredan bed hem madend necomen by the mnev-
peiteles watch had mina wit of the mate of akin of lad*
and it swine probilly ennybe se ear, that to enneequeare of
the eenfeeka whirl% "Mind them the Earn India Company
sheedd some to parliament far pear to barrow wary. The
bill wee validly liaised to 1M leseamilles of the present
Crrsally, end weeded the peewee of bervewhig which
ela:iald pvopees ever tide mien and that of Isi9.
The hem ttnpt est parhap he awe haw the borrowing
pawn of the East ladia Cspny Mood ; wad they were
Nam . In Lis the &edam had unlimited
=el _
_sables! to the approval of the Board of
hen la MOM as Hoard of "Manton only
modem lameeerbei pewees oder canals sets of wham/mt.
iba Int el was lamed to the Mae of William 'IL
Theft pewee ad hemearbe la Baileml wen Swirl by thine
settte soma mallhas they had ealsommed these pewees
the Went at taw aMla.. wed when the manly Mae oat
mann as Morey War maths. rasslaal. The ordi-
nary nem of ladies Swan hed boa Interrupted
by that need, bet the way at it was AM
Tbs goverammt Is India 'applied ell thet war
sawary tar swam deem and the hone
ire satire at the enn.earrsent oir . awry yse!
.11C11:1107,7:

.4 we le he temitisi trots India; 'whisk wile either
ntiwi Y wearty, se Mlle awe drawn to India. The mods
of NOM,. rte eavoly of bills wen, that SIMS they were
eagnwahowhat they were thsekoil by lowan the rata
mai when they wore laaatTbieat the apply woe
if the este of imbue.. That was the
wawa la Mai may wee received front India. sad it con-
thwd ail the twat r.alweitier occurred. Those net-ar-
mless VPIONIaI halted the apply era Nita, sad the
areermai thaw lai aivea sobs that ita alias
aria woad be requirod, sad that ally two ad-
ieu we eadain to meet bilk la the meat
Mae el Mite We l India Camay hoil to see kw they
add mho ell thek ,SIOSSIO .cal. la We wataas the
=laila pas action that as nor Ike net be
Wis. ea 4 that twain they sksdk man •
apply a holism. The Wean topic i that as wee VW
Wahl to Wawa; they eke Waseaktei • alba it hallisa,
sal they nil eke they wail glee the reareassi Y Isle
a Wage mat, a a earnae • emu an a bell el npae
aecesseey. The gowswat Y ladle week Leek to say
ad is taartawate at the way a wash as lbw
par Cat. Lana bad bola Wad they wail at
=m• further iwegiy of balsa The AM
a whirh the Howl if Odense hood themhoe we
this Thar mews wore very peet. they W le par he
he tenweamics of all the heap Wish was Eat as le
lads mai they ad beat as eat la warael swam It
one say by awe of their reams st be ala they net
tliellisaltr. The audition of taw awesess was as W.
low (se w usiatiend) —about me Wass as ash se-
rata aka as alias sad a hat la atterldes ; see fal-
ba is the Thow prer Cats , ad an Wan dila hernia
'bowed be Woltarate Bea. Al then 1111111101.1 bed Ms
ealid tato asielems, aN vete awl, eakowlei. le wadi
hen fake • AM elaserat et the sailpie lad Ilipainsef
tbs
Ink tad aWe Whale at serapemai grewhe MI Tie tighl ha paleasa the, la a wity
Ira
leas of tail a alauwat at the illiment Was
cad mai of Whit It we twadlie use
east
wreastria avZitaalalte yes& as, halt len eit Asa
SAN& thr the sweat at as Wayeee.
It as la sake to =kill the Was, of We an list be
sow earl he paten a the Zia India Cara, te anew
a WNW .meat a await. The tact mama het wail
be Nadal weal he West isteht wawa hot am We labia
',wawa wail pas* require baits ho dr Gana a
radios, ha pee sia pones to haw ha adllsaa
The ,sly ate. lib law Slll,ol4lP2Sall
the bee WWI he easeteed Enema& He apples
that ay elliedies could be rile le this prop&
doe. Gw lit taw had always Wm • Isis Wee
the distariames la India to previa, all awe he
mobs lhe sweawy.
_lie Waned all was the seiWt

manniof providing- fire the emergency, and to coarhation
with the Chancellor of the Etagere. end the bast Ilitsneial
witherities, it had been thought that the beet mode of raising
the err would be by debentures Maar thr by hands. He
paper therefore that the sectulty skald be debentures.
As hire would be so small • rhinos to head be April. it
wwidwirable that this hill should pare speedily r potable,
sad he was sure the house would have no of *lice to expo-
dung ne pnynar, and any intermarket that WY required be
era be Lipp, to 'Sled either in private ar in the house.
TheaseeeekY dair web& proration bed been ihremen end came
al en supine cm the money market. The ably mesa why
this till was not Introduced is the short germ before
Charm woe, that as parliament had met only for a par-
beer pesposa, so measurve not applicable to that mores
sherd be brought forward. while tree would be suSeleint '
tine Wore April, 1584, for its ronsidenttion.
Mr. T. BARING said the. be agreed with the right how-
geatlenna that there could be no doubt of the readiness of
the hone to afFted all tams of meeting the present ewer-
racy a India, and even to support, by grants of
nioney. the prerervatiort of our dominion in that ,
marry But be moat express hie &Ornament
it the node which the government had adopted to raise this
Is should rather have anticipated that the right hoe.
gentlelash would have prilisord his observations by • de-
claration that her Maesty'. government had abandoned all
ele• cf kislating for Ind,. A. the right him :renileinta had
sail that the bill would give borrowing pwen to the East
leis (rarity for two earsions, he ought today. added that
It was est proposed to interfere with the government of India
be two years. To whom wee this borrowing power to be
mated, end on whom would the responnlelity devolve?
The soh* lord at the bead of the government had given such
direct police that it was botorions that it was intended to
t hos We directly under the government at home.
.wkat iconnowne woo to borrow the money P The right
ban, gondol= did sot my that the matey was immediately
'Wad sir ta what matinee it was to be 'speeded. Rut he
bona the gateman* of the right hon. nontkman

Mat nay • my eased pals el ii. wesupt .... ,
wawa kr on of 'maim. earnalie or
allvelliSia sal that tie not wee to be borrowed enelleadvoly
at Merest periods as It might be required, lama the
Miltden end the middle of next year. Was tho Hest
amplea to sin dli the middie of next year se the
pm of ladle? If not, why was the employ
to hen tee power to borrow and the control over the measly.
H. hed sloop imagined that the drat condition of NMI to
• des was that it was require! for immediate and assomary 1
peepers, sed neat that it should be imam by wham the
namely was borrowed and by whom it was to be spew; lei
dm that it stoma be bedewed ea the simpast wed met
hoserable term. Now ell thin randier tbe thea. gads- '
' am had failed to estiety, most mischisvonly sod nem- 1
stindmally. (Beer, bear.) He asked agate who was '
to have the power of borrowing the money ? Accra an to
Msupport the East India Compote, was ta Mimi&
oen ought aßour
riatiwys • dyes" body tho power of
known( marry, or of teerry, ar to ariehr sea a '
paw se some body woo to follow. (Hoar, boa.)
The may was to be benewed in as mune of a yew sed
a half, when, aeowdbig to the decimation .1 the givers-
meet, them woo is be no Beet India Company, end the •
future reISIIIIINIIS we unknown. He did not ask Ms
ben. gentleman to reveal the whole of the 'amanita
which might not yet be matured, but he sated him to up
the corner of the veil, and I. show some parka of the mar-
vellous wisdom of the treasury beech, so far as to thaw who
was to have the management of the loan. If the
meat was to be in the hands of the Chancellor of the Eu
quer, he should have perfect confirms in his character and
izeki fir ; but it would be impassible for him to watch the 1
of the money. It must go throughsorneotherchannel,
if the power ahould be delegated to an agent, the money
and the paymaster-general might both cut away. (Hear,
bear, and a laugh.) Before granting the power now asked
for, the house ought to know by what government the money
1111111 to be raised, by what government it IVY to be
spent, who was to be responsible, and whether or
not it was the intention of her Majesty's government,
In giving to the East India Company the power of borrowing
until the middle of wet year, to continue their authority until
that period. (Hear) The best thing the government could
do in the present emergency would be to refrain from agi-
tating the public mind by legislation on Indian &Giro.
(Hear.) In raying thie be expressed no opinion but him own,
foe he had had no communication with the East India Com-
pany the subject, and wished to guard himself against
supposed to know whether they were in favour of the
bill or nut. In taking charge of their petition, in the general
sentiments of which be concurred, he was not committing
himself to the support of any policy, and would not have un-
dertaken the duty of presenting it except in the exercise of
an independent judgment. In the exercise of that same in-
dependent judgment be was commenting on the measure of
finance now under consideration. The right hon. gentleman
proposed that the loan should be raised in England. When
a loan was tilling up in India at 6 per cent. he could un-
derstand the neresity of borrowing money in this country.
But he would ask, if the government of India was to be
the government of the crown, why India wee not to
hays the advantage of enjoyiag the credit of the
, country of which it was a part. Why refine the
, advantage of facilitating in India the power of borrowing
roomy? He believed that mosey might be kat to India
with perfect security, and that it could be reimbursed by
gradual payments from the revenues of India. Whether
, the money wee lent directly, as had been the ease with re-
. ger to other countries, or by guarantee, it would be a per-
fectly safe operation for the country, and a benefit to which
India was legitimately entitled. (Hear, hear.) Money bed
been granted to Canada, to Demerara, and other colonies,
not only with great advantage to those colonies, but with
security to this country, and lied become a bond of mutual
interest between the colonies and the mother country. But
this was returned to India when this country was about to
take the gorernment of India into its own hands. The go-
verament were chary of guarantees. But did they not
guarantee a loan to Turkey to put the fiances of that
country in order? Were the finances of India of leas im-
portance, so as to induce the government to hesitate the
granting of a loan to India I' Why refer to India the &d-
-itties which had been afforded to Turkey P Again, had not
money been given to Sardinia for the payment of troops to
aid in the war against Russia? Would it be more
objectionable to lend money to India for an English object?
When the English Three per Casts. were at 95 and the East
India Company were borrowing money at 8 per cent, would
it not confer a great advantage on India and give a favour •
• able introduction to the abolition of the doable government
to allow India to enjoy fully her union with this country ?
But this was refused. It wax raid '• You shall be under the
crown for the purposes of power and honour, but es to the
question of credit, you 'hall hare none of our credit" When
the right hon. gentleman proposed to give to the East Indie
Company the power of borrowing fur re year., and the pro-
. briery was that that company would not lire for many
weeke the absurdly of each a plan must strike every mem-
. bee of the hoar. it seemed to him to be contrary to every
primipie of conaltutional manage to grant a minister, who
was not known, the power of borrowing 10,000,000 i., to dis-
' pose of existing obligations and debts, leaving the remainder
to be menaced no one knew haw. He was not aware whether
any oppeitsin would be given to the measure at ha present
etre, bet tread some hon. member of greater influence
weed peen.. his opinion on the eibie.t. (Heat hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
notwithistending the high financial authority of the hon.
gentleman, he did not think the hour would, upon a mature
conaideratten of ,he quer .n., come to the conclusion that
dm bill professed by his right hon. friend was not founded
upon principles of correct legislation on the two points on
which the hoe. gentleman had impugned it. The hon. gen-
tleman's Arse objection was, that the government sought to
obtain fur the East India Company the power of borrowing
many, which in emequteme of expected legielation they
might not be able hereafter to exercise; and he than argued
that the SiiirellanS of the Indian treasury ought to be satis-
fied not by loans borrowed on Indian credit, but by loans
granted on imperial credit. Now he (the Chancellor of the
Illebtarer) ventured to maintain, with greet confidence,
alter • tall consideration of the matter, that the bill was
banded se comet policy in both respects, although that
prey warn directly contrary to that roomer eled by the hon.
_gentleman. It was not deputed that • necessity rioted for
the government of India in this country to rides money by
loan for the payment of the exporter their home treasury.
If that point should be conorded, considerable pewees would
be made in the solution of the genuine. Now;
what wee the VASCIOI2 of the East India Company
with respect to their borrowing powers. In India their
power at borrowing was unlimited, and it was not
that the authority of parliament was necessary to =
Havernor-Genral in council to borrow. There we. "Ways
a lees open in the three presideneir of India, wed the bor-
rowing power had never been disputed, and was conitantly
kept in • state of activity. With regard to this marry, the
borrowing powers of the East India Company were peculiar,
owing to the manner in which their anomalous authority had
been created. Having been originally a trading company,
which aoeidentelly acquired sovereignty and governing
power, their power to borrow was limited by per/anent, se
partimsat limited the borrowing powers of any ordinary
mint gook company. Owing to these circumstances, it wee
nowenry for parliament to give to the government of India
to tab country specific authority to borrow money in this
weeny. But in traequeinos of their having become a poli-
tical body after they had originally ezarcind merely mercan-
tile faction, they had not the same advantage in
the men market in this country which was
by the local government of any of oar other
or colonies. If, for example, the govern-
ment of Canada, or the government of
wished to ant • loan in this country—if their cred=
tar to borrow—there was nothing in the statute law to
pewee their aeons( that power to any extent to which
they might be able to induce landowners to come forward.
Bat the Reel India Company was peculiarly situated, and it
' was moray for thorn to apply to =rent to remove
that restriction which the accident of a trading nom-
pally had embarrassed it with. What was now required was
that the govirment of India to this country—the Board of
Diro-ore subject to the control of the Board of Commironers
for India—should have the power to • certain extent to
lborrow money In this country, in order to defray the ee-
pewee of their home treasury for a limited time. If they
• exercised that power they would exercise it subject to all the
laws now in existence. If the power wee clear, the reopen-
ability would continue so long as the existing state of than
' remand unaltered. If it should please reamer on the
prnpneition of the government to make any alteration fa the
constitution of the home government of India, undoubtedly
, it would take can to provide for the transfer of aces
powers—to see that the borrowing power, crirdapal
the bill should be exercised PmPor
hiloy—an4 that the money obtained by the exercise of
such borrowing powers should be used subject to the laws
which regulate the expenditure of the government of India. '
[ No dangerous interval would occur, and there would be •
. , clear power and complete resprability, both daring the
i ' currency of this act, and under any amended 'Mate wiled
parliament might think fit to past. Therefers then was not
; the smaUeet weight in the objections to the principle on
which the bill ISIS founded. The necessity existed for Ba-
the existing home government of India to ter '
, eithreybifor the wanta of the home tresaw7. The eaosity
minim, the constitution of the home government
, the preset bill was adapted to that constitution. The poet
of rawing and using the money would be exercised ands the
, existing law. If parliament should think tit to akber the
•iient constitution, then the power of borrowing met be',
dealt with in the same manner as other powers inharentia the
' East India Company, and no peculiar difficulty would erne
with respect to the present bill which would not Will with
erect to their other powers. They now pmered • mall
unexharted power of borrowing on India Bonds, to which 1
the objtotions of the hon. gentleman would apply as much es
to the present bill. (Hear, hear.) The hoot. gentleman
propord that loans for the service of India should not be
raised on the credit of the revises of India, but
by the Imperial Exchequer ; and argued that the
government were bound to sonde to his pried-
ple, bevere they lien about to propose the
abolition of the political powers of the ceenpany in this
country. Bat he could not see the smallest aceasase be-
tween the premises and the conclusion of the boa.
It was only necessary to look to other Mil
colonies of the kingdom to see =RAM of goner
mental, in which there wee a direct midis between draws
and the dependency. and in which, sivertheleas, ea dower
quers were just as distinct as the imperial faakarsar_isd Ille
an Indi exenequer, and when the tom was Wooled by the
milonial credit, unless the imperial credit was gives by as
Vacate legislation of parliament. The hon. gentleman had
referred to the case of the Canadian loan, and that of the
Demerara loan, as examples which ought to be followed with
regard to India. Now, the Caned/rut loan was elected ander 1

circuesistances, with • view te the settlement of
pending with the colony, and rested simply on the
pa s? of an imperial guarantee for a colonial loan. In the
else ef Demerara, and other loenseflected by the West India
Weeds, they were in some ddeeggrreeee connected with the moan-
ttiaof the slaves, and the ditftmeed financial omodition of
calesiee, end surely they afforded no example for the
enemies of an Imperial guarani. to en exchequer so
madly thy as that of India. Donor the last session
an guarantee was given to New Zeeland, butthe tea-
ilea was, that it was a young and strurgline community, and
them were ;oculist retaliate with the New Zealand Company
which rendered it expedient that the assistance of the Bntish
treasury should be given to that community. These reasons,
however, did not apply to our East India dominions, which
had argot yet been • burden upon the British exchequer.
On Mr eindrary, in the early history of our relations with
Las, en attempt was made to extract from India • auxin-
Wks le re Latish exchequer. That tribute, as it was ,
was paid far • series of years, and to a great extent •
prevailed that England had, to no inconsiderable
hem enriched by the contributions of India, and that
se the imperial exchequer being called upon to
surnise LanMoans and becoming iteelf tributory, the
unman bad igners, and of many persons In this
emery w that England had derived from India some se-
lenium to Its exchequer. Without wishing to revive long
nettled disputes as to the tribute of India In aid of the u-
rges of this country—without thinking that it would ever
ble, or if possible that it would be just or expedient, to
calf the finances of India to do more than discharge the
whets of the lodise government. He could not for a moment
daft the principle that except for some extraordinary pur-
pose except on account of the failure both of Indian
revenue and Indian credit —it would be expedient or just
to call in an of the finances of India the credit of the Im-
perial legislature. (Hear, hear.) Differing entirely with
the hon. gentleman on the two Important points which be
had raised, he justified the bill on principles of sound policy,
and aa deterring of the support of the house. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI did not think his hoc. friend the member
for Huntingdon (Mr. Bering) ought to flatter himself with
the notion that her Majesty's ministers would withdraw their
intended mauve to change the government of ludia on ac-
count of the existence of a great emergency, because it was
in the midst of • great emergency, after duo and deep con-
sideration, that her Majesty's ministers arrived at the conclu-
sion that such a policy ought to be recommended to paella-
mint ; and considering the intimation contained niche epeech
from the throne—considering the correspondent,e which had
taken place between the highest authorities connected with the
government of India and the first minister of the crown—con-
sidering that a member in another place bad last night
signified the intention of the government to bring forward a
measure to change the powers of the East India government
in this country, he thought his bon. friend would, upon re-
flection, not flatter himself that his appeal would be success-
ful. (Hear.) It appeared to him that her Majesty's minis-
ters were not acting with that ingenuousness and candour
which the house had • right to expect. After the notification
from the crown and the correspondence which bud passed
between the first minister and the directors, it was rather
extraordinary that the House of Commons had received no
official intimation on the subje,t, when the interposition of
that howls was necessary to enable the East India Company
to carry en the government of that vat country. He did
not think the right hon. gentleman had met the practical
difficulty in the case. The question really was, what were
the most advantageous terms on which the home government
of India could rides the money? The house had been told
that, whatever changes might take place, it was the deter-
mination of the government that any loan raised in this
country by the home government of India should be a charge
upon the revenue of India only. He would not at present
enter into the policy and propriety of that determination;
but if the loan was to be chargeable only on the
revenue of India, it became • question of cal-
culation with those who had the money to lend
whether the security would be beet under the government
now in existence in India, and which administered India, or
under the government projected by her Majesty's ministers.
That appeared to him to be a distinction of the utmost im-
portance, which the house was bound to consider, and which
involved the whole question of the policy or propriety of the
change of government. (Hear, hear.) It was • question of
grave consideration whether the house should or could en-
tertain • measure of this kind—a measure which empowered
the home government of India to raise, not for immediate or
pressing purposes, but for future purposes, • loan
of such a large amount. The first consideration
of those who had money to lend must be the
security on which the money was to be lent. If the security
was only to be the revenue of India, the question would be
the parties by whom the government was to be administered
and the means by which the revenue was to be raised, be-
cause that might make • difference between 3 and 6 per cent.,
or between 6 end 9 per cent. (Hear, hear.) Some peewees
mightconsider that if the administration of India wee placed
under the crown, the security offered by the Indian muss
would be Infinitely Improved. But there might be en In-
fluential body, sad wage them probably many who would
be willing so advance the money, who would look with
the greatest alarm and distrust on the projected
alteration, as likely to shake the foundations of the
Indian revenue, and affect the resources and prosperity of
the country. (Hear, beer.) Under these circumstances,
although he could not go so tar as to say the house ought to
refuse to sanction the introduction of the hill, became that ,
would be an act of discourtesy towards the government to
which he did not wish to be • party, he thought the how
ought to say, in permitting its introduction, we are not
pledged to support it in its future stages. His impression
was that when the bill was well weighed by the house and
the country, it would be found replete with grave objections
and deserving of the most serious and earnest consideration.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAE WELL said there could be no doubt that the
government of India wee in want of money, and that to give
them the power contemplated by the bill was not only •
reasonable proposition, but one which could not be refused.
But there was ens question which it was of great importance
for the house to understand before taking any step which
would commit it with regard to the bill, and that was, what
was to be the future liability of the consolidated fund of
England in regard to the finance, of India. It was the
bounden duty of the house to take care that the money to be
charged on the tax-payers of this country, when levied for •
necessary purpose, should be levied at the lowest cost,
and constitute the smallest burden on the taxpayers.
There would be • great difference between money borrowed
by the crown and money borrowed by the existing govern-
ment of India.. It would be nearly half as conch again if
borrowed by the government of India than if borrowed by the
crown. (Hear, hear.) There would be a great inconveni-
ence in forestalliog the discussion upon another, a wide, •
most important, a most difficult question which her Majesty's
government were about to bring under consideration. e
would not mak any question calculated to forestall or preci-
pitate the discussion. But what was to become of the
finances of lode must force itself upon the house in the die-
elletiOn on this bill. He understood the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to have mid—and this ought to be distinctly
stated on the second reading—that in the changes which
might take place in the government of India the finaftoes of
India would rest as they did at present, upon the revenues of
India—that in undertaking the government of India, the
crown did not undertake the responsibility of the Indian
revenue so as to make it in any event a bard= upon the tax-
payers of England, and that consequently If any calamity
should occur which should render it impossible
e for the liabi-
lities contracted by the crown of England, but burdened upon
the resources of India, to be pail frem resources, that
no charge and no liability would arise for which the House
of Commons would be called upon to provide out of the re-
venues furnished by the taxpayers of England. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said no one could dispute the proposition
of the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, that the
government of India stood in need of money. The question
was whether the course taken by the government was the
one best calculated to provide that money. The house was
greatly in want of information respecting Indian finance.
If so large a sum was to be borrowed entirely on the credit
of the finances of India, some general exposition of the
finance, of India ought to be given to the house. Parties
asking the house for • loan had generally condescended to
give some information as to the means by which it was to
be repaid and the interest secured. No financial statement
was made last year, and the house was therefore in • worse
position than feud when it was asked to grant these exten-
sive powers. If the money was to be raised entirely upon
the security of the Indian revenue, and the government in
India were raising money at six per cent., that fact would
weigh materially on the lending rate in this countl7.
He was extremely glad to hear the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer make the strong statements he had against staking the
coneolidated fund of this country for this loan. He was glad
to hear that declaration on the part of the government, be-
cause he thought that if they once began a system of that
sort, there was no man in that bonen, however young, who
would either see the end of it or of the trouble It would
bring.
Mr. MANGLES said he should be readily believed when
he stated that it was not the East India Company which had
requested her Majesty's government to bring in the bill
which was looming in the distance, but the East India Com-
pany had requested her Majesty's government to bring In
this bill, because it was absolutely necessary for the govern-
ment of India that the home government of that day, now
seated in the East India Company, should be supplied with
funds to carry on the important operations now pending, sad
which required a larger sum than had hitherto been mow
:7L for government of that country. It would be sadly
that, in consequence of the enormous amber
of troops which had been seat out, of the large
sums necessarily paid for the shipping of troops, of the east
quantity of military etoree which had been necessarily sent
from this country—of the government in India having made
• requisition which the company had met to the extent of •
million in elver bullion—of the large number of troops and
mores which would probably have to be sent over in the
course of the next year, and the probability that the bone
government would have to make another large remittance of
silver bullion to maintain their credit In India, that it wee
absolutely necessary that the home government of India
should be supplied with funds. Unless they wished the
NNW= to stop, unless they wished that the government In
WM should be deprived of the means of defence, that no
troops should be sent out, that no means should be taken to
strengthen the hands of the government in that country,
they moil sapplrienhe home government of India, in whedeso.
ever brads it a he vested, with the means of carrying it
an. It had said that this money was not
wanted fen ea immediate and pressing purpose.
Now, be thought the house would see that that purpose
mast be pressing to a great extent when he mid that they
owed her Majesty's government at this moment for stores
and for payment of troops that had been sent from England,
more then three millions sterling, for a very large proportion

of which the memory was pres.mg for payment. The defi-
ciency at the end of the yoar 1858 would probably exerted
seven millions, and in consequence of the nemesity of send-
ing out more troops, it was possible there might be still larger
demands upon them. Mr. Cardwell argued that, because
money could only he obtaiaed in Calcutta at 6 per cent. it was
probable that that rate would be required here, or something
like it. The fact was, that six per cent. in Calcutta,
measured by the rare at wheit merchants and ...hers were
borrowing—represented. taking the same standard, 3 per
cent, in this country, and the company, in fact, borrowed as
cheaply in relation to private individuals,when it borrowed
in Calcutta at 6 per cent., as the government of this day did
when it borrowed at 8. The company's bonds at this mo-
meat were at • premium of 20s, which was a proof that its
credit had not fallen so low as the right bon. gentleman
would seem to intimate. (Hear, bear.) They reeked the
house to extend the powers given by ancient act• of parlia-
ment. They asked to have power to borrow a further sum
of ten millions, and he entreated the house—whatever might
be their opinion as to the intended measure of her Majesty's I
government, which had been communicated to nobody yet—
not to allow the home government of India to stand still for
the want of funds which were so absolutely essential to
strengthen the hands of the government in India.
Sr F. BARING thought, front the speech of the hon.
gentleman who had just sat down, that he had not
quite understood the difficulty which had been raised, '
and which lie was bound to say that he partook
of. He did not apprehend that there was the slightest wish
on the part of the house—there was certainly none on his
part to throw any difficulty in the way of the East India
Company'. obtaining sofficieut funds to carry on the govern-
memL He spoke for one when he said he was quite prepared
to act with ItUrality to the company. He understood that
what they wanted for the year war seven millions, but they
should confine the loan to the united the year. Do not
let them go beyond what their own practice was in their own
loans—do not give them power to raise 11101147 by debentures
for a year and a halt. Wy should they advance. three toil.
Bons more than was actually necessary. when they knew that
before six months were over the Rest India Company would
be a cutter of histery P (" Hear, hear," and cries of " No,
no.") He did not know what was the intention of the house,
but that was the Intention of her Majesty's government.
There was no harm in allowing the government to bring in
the bill, and he should support them in asking for the
sum which was actually required fur the service of the year.
But let them have su(licieut information as to what was re-
quired. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for England., and he had taken good
care to announce that the junction of the two govern-
ments would be no bentffit to India. Remember what Sir R.
Peel said—" Chancellors of the Exchequer might make
speeches, but good sense and good faith would have more
power than Chancellors of the Exchequer." If the
finances of India should fail,thie country would have to maks
up every sixpence that was deficient, sad he had no doubt
that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer would be the
first to come down and move that the debt be a charge on the
finances of this country. They were therefore in this pei-
don—that it was their interest that the money shouts be
raised on the lowest terms. (Hear, bear.) And it was their
duty to see that they were not charging the finances of India
' with more than was necessary. He, therefore, thought they
ought to take advantage of the credit of this country. He
did not ask them to advance the money, but if, by a guaran-
tee, they could raise the money on lower terms, It was as
much for their interest as for the interest of India. (Hear,
hear.) There was no difficulty. Her Majesty's government
were creditors for three millions of the seven that were
deficient, and if requisite the loan might stand over for a few
I months. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should furnish the house with the amount actually required
for the service of the year, and that they should confine the
loan to the amount absolutely required for the year.
Colonel SYKES said this was not the time to addnaes the
house on the subject of the propertied plan of her Majesty's
gove which was at present is imbiber. He would
give his o on that plan when it came before them.
The measures adopted to preserve our empire in India had
' necessitated an enormous outlay which had almost drained
the treasury of the Indian government, and it was absolutely
necessary that money should be had in this country.
Whether by guarantee of the government of this
country, or merely on the revenues of India, the
money must be had. With regard to this guarantee,
he expressed his conviction that in the present tempera-
ment of the 180 millions of persons in India, if it were
the intention of her Majesty's government to carry out the
views expressed by certain parties in England as to placing
India under the direct authority of the Crown, the guarantee
of any sum of money to be raised now or hereafter would in
the coarse of a few years not he worth a rush.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the President of the Board
of Control what were the documents he proposed to place
before the house with regard to the future revenues of India.
They should require some information before they gave
authority to raise ten millions on a revenue which, as far as
he knew, was in a moat critical position. Although the
gross revenue of India was 28 millions, the deficiency, he
believed, was six millions. He speed with the right bon.
member for Portsmouth that they should not give authority
to raise more than was required fur the yew. Con-
sidering that India had been turned as it were
topsy-turvy, he could not conceive why they should
select the present moment to make this change. If
the government of India were placed directly under the
crown, this country would in some way or other have to pay
say deficiency that might arise. When, in 1833, the Meet
I India Company was continued, it was expressly stated that
the proprietors' interest in India was in their stock, which
was converted into annuities ,l 630,0001., which wea1...31110d
on the Indian revenue, and it wuargued that the East India
Company would have the greatest interest in the good
government of India, as the payment of their dividends
depended upon it. Now he should like to know whether
they were not by the proposed bill affecting the security of
the proprietors of Indian stock. He mentioned this to show
the necessity of dealing with caution with the finances of
India

Mr. D. SEYMOUR said the proprietors of But India
stock had as their security the first charge on the revenues
of ladle, which amounted to thirty millions a year ; and they
would, therefore, not be affected by the proposed loan. The
hon. gentleman opposite and the right hon. gentleman
behind him wished to limit the loan to the neceesities of the
Indian government at the present time. If they had
paid attention to the speech of the President of the Board of
Control, they would have seen th.t the government also
wished the loan to be limited to the necessities of the present
time, and they considered that ten million/ wee not too much
to meet the present necessities. The deficiency of next year
would be seven or eight millions, and the right hon. gentle-
man said it had been customary to keep a million in reserve,
whichwould make it nine millions, and nobody could say that
the power of raising an extra million wee too great a power
to confer under the circumstances. He hoped, therefore, the
hones would think that her Majesty's government had done
their utmost to limit the amount of the loan to what wee re-
quired for this year. From what Sir F. Baring bad said be
should think he would be strongly in favour of raising the
loan on the credit of tie emery. Sir Robert Peel called
attention to this sublime fifteen years ago, and he stated that
if this country were celled upon to pay the debts of India it
would not be called wen for debts heretofore contracted, but
for loans which from eireumMances we might be obliged to
raise in this country. The present loan wee guaranteed only
by the the
avvernment. revenues of India, and no other guarantee wee offered
Mr. J. B. SMITH remarked that it was usual before they
voted money for this country to have a statement of the
finance of the country, and be hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not deprive them of that statement in the
ease of India.

Mr. V. SMITH thanked the house for the tone and
temper with which they had disco/wed this question. The
objections raised to it were chiefly with regard to the pro-
posed bill on the government of India. The reception of the
measure would have been very different if he had adopted the
advice of the hon. member for Huntingdon and the right
hon. member for Portsmouth, that a guarantee should be
given on the revenues of England. He wished to confirm
Use statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there
was not the slightest intention of charging the revenues of
this country with this loan. Sir F. Baring said the
amount was too large, and that he did not wish
It to go beyond the year. It was perfectly open to
the right hon. baronet when the bill was in committee to
move to limit the awn, but he (Kr. V. Smith) hoped that
the house, considering the necessities of the Heat India Com-
pony, would consent to the mum proposed. That there was
as extreme urgency for mousy was admitted on all hands.
He therefore hoped that there would be no objection to the
bill except as to its details. One question had been raised by
the right hon. member for Oxfordshire ea to the finances of
India. He quite admitted that there was • great deficiency
in the revenue of India. The right hon. gentleman wished
to know if the revenue of India had improved daring the lest
six months. It might be considered well if they had kept op
at all during that period. With regard, however, to the
present bill. it only applied to the home expenditure, and be
was perfectly reds to present to the house a statement of
the receipts and disbureemante, If that was wished. Whether
the powers of the East India Company were transfirred or
mot, it was absolutely neceeeery that money should be raised
to carry on the government of that ciountry.
Leave wee then given to bring In the bill, and it was sub-
sequently brought in and reed a lest time.

RAILWAY LOANS.
On the motion of Yr. Lowe a return was ordered of the
amount of capital and loan which each railway company has
been authorised to mite by acts passed previous to and in
1857 ; the amount of share capital actually paid up on the
31st day of December, 1867, separating the ordinary abare
capital which does not receive, or is not entitled to receive,
any preferential dividend or interest, from that which bears a
preferential dividend or rate of interest, stating the rate and
amount of dividend upon such ordinary share capital, as well
meths amount of each ChM of such preferential capital, with
the rate and amount of interest or dividend it is entitled to
receive; the amount due on debenture., loan notes, or any
other interest-bearing vacuities, on the 31st day of December,
18.57, the rates of interest payable thereon, and the gums to
which such recto( interest ate applicable ; distinguishing the
several auras raised by shares or on loan on which dividend
or interest was not paid out of revenue, and
the amount of such dividend or interest • the
total amount the company retained porters at the end
of 1867 to raise, either on existing shares or by creating new
shame, or by loans ; the amount expended in the construc-
tion of the railway works, preliallnary expenses, and in roll-
ing stock ; the length of line open for traffic on the 31st
day of December, 1867, distinguishing single and double
portions ; the length of line in 00117110 of construction at the
end of 1857 the length of line the company is authorised to
construct, but which was not commenced on the 31st day of
December, 1857, and consequently the total length for which

1 •

the company has obtained powers. Of the ties of
railway companies which haa been effected, ei rby put.
chase, Issas, or otherwise, during 1857, stating the nature of
such amalgamation and the date on which it commenced,
with the act of parliament under which it was effected. And,
from each railway company, showing the length of each line
or part of a line, or branch line, for which the powers granted
by parliament fur the compulsory purchase of the land re-
quired fur their construction had been allowed to tapir*,
previous to the 31st day of Deeember, 18.57, without the en.
sm. of such powers ; and the capital appropriated by par-
liament for the constry/inis of such line. nr branch lines.