The Express.
London, England, 1860-02-21 00:00:00

THE =PBX% TUESPAY EVENING, ditEtstitTAßY. 21,• 1860.

if they be lettered members, why. when mieseeed "rakes
i re triumphant, it will be rotted that they have a* antici-
I patted the idea of • British member of perli•meet.
(Loud opposition cheers.) Bat it may be that
1 the legislative chamber of Freese Is iafester to
suisalves la pollees' se gacity or legielative skill:
ft may be that bey have not that high sense of political
liberty .huh Beefier In ibis country. Parkape—at least
' It Is no opiates-1n the cold emairles of Wimps political
Beery seed as erbeeteacy see theeparable. (Owed**
er.eete.) Bet this era 4 he domed, sib at now elected as the
prowl' tormentelmi hate loth elected gullet Illitellealit the
openi..ne, ..r at any tee the prejediter. of the multitude in
their era caantry. (Hoer, hem.) My bon. frond the
member for North Warerklabire retried with legitimate
pride to the circumstance that the most powerful empire in
Europe and the moot &wishing community In the Uaired
last a Wit prufssssd threes opinions respecting protecOatt to
native lodustty which in this bout. he has ever ably and
honestly maintained. (Cheers) Sir, there Is • country
which I hope ie not infect r other to Imperial Frazee ce to
the famous federation across the Atlaatio—a country which
we are proud to remember; that oountry has not been feith-
fel to the principles of protection to native iodustry, but has
repudiate' the opinions which Frazee and America still
uphold. It is satiefectory to know, even although it is through
this treaty, that, whatever differences of opinion there may
be on other eubjects, oa the prise* of protection to native
industry these two greet commies are in perfect bikeway.
Free-trade principles may be a good thing, bat permit me to
sty that coestitudomal principles are bettor. (Opposition
cheers.) This treaty of commerce appears to be an instra-
meet which has silenced our I. gislature. Dom'{ let It turn
out that in unrest it Into effect we shall have deprived
another legislature of Its COOMi'lltiOnal privilege. (Oprel-
lion cheers.) That is what I wish to impress oaths feeling
of the borne to-night. I esniestly entreat her Majesty's
Ministers to force us into • theist= on this queetion—l ask
them fairly to meet the points I have placed before them, and
not merely by concurrence and co-operation, but, by • lead-
ing ageniy, to bring back the booms to that path of public
busiest,a from which, I think, we have most unfortunately
deviated. I accuse the government-1 will not use the word
accuse—l imp'. e to the government nothing beyond inad-
vertence, but it is an thedvertioce which, if petered in, will
lead to great parliamentary ini onvenisece, perhaps ultimately
to great public injury, I maintain that It is the right
of the House of Commons that this treaty should
be Gahml toil frankly to our coostitutioaal revision.
I maintain that it we persist In the course of bust-
as-s now reoontreenried all practical control over Its provi-
sion' is loot. It is a (louden which concerns the privileges
of this boom, the freedom of debate, end all those other con-
siderstioos which I hope never will become party questions
moues, no. I want ministers to feel that they may take
the lies I indicate not merely with honour but with dignity,
fns I suppose the time has not yet come wham an English
minuet*, shall feel himself in • false position because he yields
tithe privileges of the House of Contromoi,and acknowledges
the authority of parliament. (Loud opposition cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EICBEQUER—Sir, the
right hon. gentleman, in the motion which he has proposed
to-aight, abandoning for the mist part, although not with
satire consistency throughout his speech, those more inte-
resting topics of • general nature which are connected with
the dilative' proposal of the government, has called attention
to • matter which, however Important, is still strictly a
p Ant of procedure. I think it is for the convenience of the
house that we should avoid, as far as possible, a general col-
latent' discussion, and on that account I do not see the
psealfwedventage of importing into this debate • criticism
es the soesistency and competency of Mr. Cobden. (Beer,
brew.) I do not thlnk it was at all necessary for the pur-
pose or dignity of this booms that the right hos. gentleman
should commence his speech with an explanation,however in-
teresting it may be to us, who had not the privilege last
week of being sammeeed to • metes assembly, of the
grounds which endued him to think be had come to • better
deshima this wee then arrived at, and to explain his change
of purpose and peoceiders to the other side of the house. I
Aida have greatly couipinsed on the head of the right hon.
lend' ia if we were to be deprived of • comprehensive de-
bate en the motion of the hoer. member for Essex ; and per-
mit me be say that there is no gentlemen of his standing on
that side of the house to whom an important motion might
be more safely entrusted, (Opposition cheers.) But I make
no complaint, I merely allude to the moot, and pass on to
the other portion of his speech. Neither shall I eater into •
discussion on the constitution of France, or the position of
the deputies. (A laugh.) With the permission of the right
hon. gentleman I shell defer that discussion until the second
reading of the Reform Bill of my noble friend. (Laughter.)
I want to come to the matter which has been raised by the
motion of the right hon. gentleman, the point of which
although narrow, I admit to be one of great importance. I
must begin by tendering my thanks to the right hen. gen-
tleman. He says that we have coined the Queen to
commit en uooonstitutional and illegal act, and that
oar proceeding is also an invasion of the privileges of the
Hoses of Commons. If that be true, never was there better
grimed for a party charge ; end hew chivalrous, then, was
the conduct of the right hon. gentleman in meting over us
his protecting arm on the ground that all this terrible oils
chief was dune merely through inadvertency (load
cheers)—the greatest example of that Christian charity, to
which some of us at least were yesterday exhorted, that I
seer saw ecbibitsd, (Loud cheers and laughter,) Bat I
meat" accept the apology which the right boa. gentleman
bee kindly made for us, no more than I can on the pert of
the government the motion that he has produced, and which
he says it would be consistent with our propriety and dignity
to accept. The dignity of • government is • matter upon
which different gentlemen fa &threat situations may have a
different opinion ; but I meet eosin that if we have been
guilty of a course involving the consequences mentioned by
the right hon. gentleman, we have gravely erred in our
duty, and the beet attitude we tea assume in 'sizing the
helping hand which the right hen. gentleman holds oat to
us is not an attitude of calm and insulted dignity, but rather
so attitude of penitence and dependence on hie forgiveness
But I contend that the right hon. gentleman is correct wither in
his facts nor in his principles—(laughter)—and that the
course we have adopted is • muse directed by general
propriety, by respect for the dignity of the House of Com-
mons, end likewise by what the right hon. gentleman never
mentioned, but which haa been in the minds of her Majesty's
goveramsot, a regard for the great Matches of trade out of
doors which are depending on the reenVil of this act. (Loud
cheers.)m The right lion. gentleman then read from the
of the house some of the resolutions moved by Mr.
Pe fa 1787, and some of the proceedings thereupon, sad
he denied that the government had withdrawn the treaty
from the cognisant's of the house or abandoned the roomiest
of Mr. Pitt. He could not understand, he said, west were
Mr. Dierasli's notions of the respective functions of the
the crown and of parliament in respect to treaties.
As to the motion itself, he did not know what
it meant, sod he believed Mr. Derail' himself did not know
what it meant. By the 14th article it was provided that the
treaty should be In (ores when parliament had given the
Necessary legislative saactioo which was the passing of the
act of porlisteetit which settled that part of it which related
to England, and the 20th article only referred to tee rati-
fication as regarded France. The motion, if it
meant anything, meant that the house should pees a tie-
d& sarong to each article of the treaty. 8o far from with-
drawing the treaty from the meditation of the house, the
precedent of Mr. nu had bees followei in every ;tore,
except such es the slowed circumstances of the tunes
required. It was not tbs custom to make known treaties
of commerce to the house by measage from the crows.
The discussion in hand wee simply puerile. The course
taken by the government was founded simply on the
neemeity of despatch in matters connected with the trade
sad eimanierce of the country, sal they proposed to bring
Wine parliament In • direct form all the provinces of the
treaty which required legislative sanlion. It was the intim-
tits of the goverment, if the house adopted those portions
of the treat y which required legislative reaction, to submit
it se • whole for Its assent. And, let me add (continued
the right hoe. gentleman) that we don't intend to
do that as supposing it to be nervesery fa order to fulfil the
tome of the treaty which require the legislative reaction
or resat of perliament, beams we hold distlaoly that the
only mode In which parliament can, la the strict sense of the
word, esent to a treaty, is by giviag effect to tines provi-
sloes which require legislation. Or object is not to obtain
the assent of parliament to a treaty, for parliament cannot
assent to • treety. How can a ffactuating body
sweet to • treaty ? The king never dew, but
pertianiest does die, and It cannot assent to
• treaty, because It may itself be dissolved to-
morrow. It is not for the purpose of obtaining
Its assent to the treaty in any rigid or jedictal Wei
of the word that we appeal to parilemeet, brat it is because
her Majesty's government think it desirable to secure all the
moral might and Penetiell that can be given to an Instrument
of this kind, in order that it may fulfil all the great purposes
fir which it was designed. I have detained the committee
rattier longer theta I iateaded. (Cheers.) I have bat tote
word more to say, and that relates to • charge by the right
hon. gentleman. He thinks that he has lighted upon •
rest godsend when he lade that Mr. Pitt separated his
treaty from his twigs*. Hs with exultation to the
cisme whieb Mr. Pitt Fleet of all he 'aye, there
c laohne
woe the proceeding on batty, thee there nee the ;ere-
mines cm the cuatoess Nl* and thee there wee the hedger.
Here then is the menthe of the right her. patieresn's
mote. The fault of which the government ere guilty is
that they have combined the treaty sad the badges in one
proceeding. (Ironical cheers from Mr. Newdlegerc) Very
*sod. What oug to they to have dome ? It is very trey to poi.%
oat the laccnveniencesof soy course wlthlimity have berm takes
with regard to • great and complicated subject ; but I watt
to see what ware it is that the wisdom of parliament. as re-
wagered by my hon. Wend who has just cheered—(laugh-
ter)—would have had a, adept. I unders'and my hoe. Woad
sad the right hoe. geetleesaa to say that we might to have
separated the provinces of the treaty from the ileaseiel sr-
t. nremente of the year; eerie to my, at the beglanteg of
Fearsery, we ought to have Mewed French wises by nee.
lotion et raised dudes ; we might to have redoes.* the
duties es various slides nem*. from Frame, and to have
repealed the duties ea ether ertlithe coming from that emir
try. Are they were of As hoop Which has boa cgaillnisil

by the practise of this house darteg a great eamber el 'semi
aseesly, that when dear its tadesd the minceits Mks,
elect immediately ? (Hear, Mar.) I mamas, air, that alter
,i a pp.fouod c *Mention which has bees givea to atie ques-
tion of procedure that usage must have been taken into
amount; 1 presume that they could not with to lovely* all
the trader* and ocammers of the country to the *earl
al *Sag questions of thls kind has: up es is sera=
months. (hoer, bear.) Very well, Mem the apahot of
this procedure would have buss that yes would hale
kgeland to reduce the *ties apes Preask sad
Perch minis, and to abolish the duties epee
the resolutions framed for that purpose would hem taken
effect at the Custom-how the monde* after they were
pared by this hones mad tbe result would have been that
we Moak have had what It mesas would have gladdened the
heart of the her. mate' (Kr. Nardegate), though nut
perhaps that Mate right hon. gentlemen—Mat to to my, a
revival of the system of dahrentiell Sake with all te de-
formities ; French 111611• B *lag admitted at 3a. per gallon ;
while Spanish sad Perengesse pad fa. 10d. For a Mort
time the golden age wad/ have come bank again. Protec-
tionism), pure et ample, scald have been restored. (" Hear,
hear," and laughter.) The fight hem gentleman has mated
to-night for the Scat time that he disks the principlet of free
trade are very good priaolphs. Ima sorry that this should
ham best his first essay le (Meg AMA to his new opinion.
In point of fact, sir, oar dei he mixing up the treaty
with the budget may be gempriesd la two seatenoes. In the
Set plea we comfier that all emissive legislation
is mainly out of the question, sad that is one of
the Brat pritl, tbas want to me tested by the vote of
the hems to- t. Semadly, the comes we have adopted
has had reference spatial, and exclusively to pleb* on-
, venoms. (Elearlem.) We were about to propose to par-
liament that it shoe* give its sanction to a treaty with
Frame which involved recensions of duty to an meat little
short of 2,000,0001., sad surreedar for tha year ma amount of
roman* somewhat exceeding 1,000,0001. Now, sir, I west
to know what would have been the position of the
government if they had come down to parliament,
especially in this meelal year 1880, or in any year, sad said—
We wish you to remit taxes to the amount of nearly
2.000,0001., to permits revenue amounting to about
1,000.0001., but we cannot tell you yet what are to be the
finstriel arraignneate el the year ? (Cheers.) Sir, that is
the justification of our combining the treaty sad the budget,
end I am certain that this hose will not fall fa a lament to
see the sufilciency of that justification. (Cheers.) Nay,
more, I will venture to my this, that had the right am.
gentleman been • minioer and made this commercial treaty
with France—and he is a great admirer of commercial
Umtata with that country—the force of CfrOUMBLIZION, the
force of ressoo, the fair of resistant*, and even of ridicule,
would have prevented him from commg down to the House
of Commons, and sang that house to commit itself vitally
with respect to the revenue of the year, sad at the seas time
neglecting to tell the Imam what were Ike postal arrangt-
roasts which he contempleted with regard to the revenue
and expenditure of the year. Sir, I have said sufildeut, I
think, to show the hates that on the question of procedure
the right her. geatlemen has, fa tact, complained of
our not ha nag committed ea error of the grossest
kind, and one which, if we had oesamittad it, the Home of
Commons would have speedily corroded fur us, while ex-
peeping, in anequivond term*, to mane of the folly el our
proceedings.
Sir H. CAIRNS followed, generally niters** Me.
Disreelr's arguments, but gine( theca a mare legal septa.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL also mimed MS the law
of the question, replying to Sir H. Calras—mateadiag that
he heel only eddied to the erreasous exectMeleas of Mr.
Oneself.

ltir F. LILLY disputed the easeerselion pet by the
Cho:manor of the Saoheqaer upon the 14th said 70th arti-
cles of the treaty, the effect of which was that Use treaty
would be invalid until the whole, In its entirety, ahaU bare
bees sanctioned by parliament. He pointed out the 0311-
•equecose of a decision of the house adverse to the Ilth metals
after s redaction or remission of duties by the resolutions.
It any one vote should be rejected by the hones it would be
impossible to adopt the treaty, or even for her Majesty to
outman it to the approval of the house. This difficalty would
have been avoided oy • strict adherence to the precedent of
1787.

Mr. NEWDEGATE maintained that the mute taken
by perernment was not only repugnant to the precedent set
by Mr. Pitt, but wee not consistent with the pectic* of the
house. Be preessiel against the treaty as one-sided.
As no woretnr rem,
The APEALIR, after a pause, rose to put the question,
but

-Mr. ATRTON rose and said what they were asked
to do was dessibed in one of the petitions as "a bar-
tering away of the labour of the people of this country ;"
and surely before they did that It wade not too much to sib
for an opportunity of serious deliberation. In day, gone by.
when the home knew that it did not represent the people—s
fact whisk parliament sow seemed slow to learn—it was
more diary of the rights and liberties of the people. This
boom used la those days to hear petitions at the bar, and
though that preens, had fallen into desuetude, the people had
still a right to be heard by their represtiotatives. (Heat,
hear.) He should support the amendment.
Mr. MA LINS regretted the tone which had characterised
the speeches on the other side, who bad east the moths of
his right how. friend with bitten:es andearessa. (Limrhter.)
The nation had bees taken by surprise. There was a *shag
prevalent that their beet rights had been bartered away,
ant that the bargain wee one-sled and gave them so ade-
quate ocsaideratlon. (Hear, sad chaos.) The opposition to
she treaty was general, and so great la fact was
the number of letters which hon. members re-
ceived protesting against It, that he quite expected
the right hon. gentleman would find hie deficiency
made up by the biasses In the revenue of tbs post-ottiee.
He thought the course proposed was ill-considered and
unfair. Although they have • majority to-night, stiU it
wee a course I. which tha government could not persist. The
duty of the house wee to consider the terms of the treaty fist ;
and, haring agreed to them, they could then reduce the duties.
Hs would ask the government what was their motive in shirk-
ing the genetics, sad proosodiag in this moot unnaturaland
improper menhir ? ("Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.")

Mr. BRIGHT and Lord J. Busertt roar together, but
the calls being for Mr. Bright that honourable gen-
tleman said that from the very animated manner
of the honourable and leaned gentleman who had just
sat down a stranger might have been led to imagine
that some grave qualities wee before the house. (" Hear,
hear," and laughter.) But he (Mr. Bright) had listened to
every sentence which had &Iles in the mums of the debate,
end he thought it hardly possible to tell what they were dis-
cussing. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire said he had oonsultod nobody
but the boo. and learned member for Belfast, who was not a
very bad soldier to have by his side in a great party fight ;
still, he (Mr. Bright) could not discover, from the motion
or speech of the right hon. gentleman, the real object
of his amendment. The house, however, got at it in
the speech of the hon. member for North Warwick-
shire (Mr. Newdepts), and he did not blame that
hon. member for the course which he had taken,
although he could not understand the point from which he
viewed this question. But he remand spoke, and denounced
the whole thing. He did not believe in the treaty, nor in the
principles which his leader said were good. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. member stood up and stated his opinions—although
they were as he (Mr. Bright) believed erroneous—and his
object was to get rid of this treaty. (Hear, bear.) Now,
what was the true object el boa. members on the opposition
side of the bowie—and he would observe that it was not an
incompatible side to sit upon ? Why they were opened to this
treaty. Thee why did they act, instead of carping at it in
private and making vicious stabs is that houm, fairly stets
that the treaty was 'a mistake, and that the Queen had been
badly advised in entering into It, and that parliament might
not to follow the course recommended by the government ?
They should tame forward sad state their objections above
heard, sad adopt—be was gaggle as, a ratiossl—but at any
rate •mealy coarse. (Had, lteu.) The seal fact was a
portion of Hes ben. asseabers Gypsies were such annoyed
with the treaty frogs beginning to end. Another portion of
the hen. ambers opponte did net like that side of the house
en whisk they sow sat, and they thought that the attack
would be made with some 1100081111. The treaty WA. at-
tacked, but he did not think they would overthrow
it oat this occasion. Why did an some hoe.
gentleman bring forward a resolution to say the treaty ought
to be rejected P The hoe. member for Benz (Mr. Du Cone)
had tam that coarse, sad he objected to the treaty bemuse
it reduced the ordiaary ravens of the country. If thia re-
aelopion awl bola warowafalt it would have gone a long way
in oondensieg the eamicial scheme altogether. He (Mr.
Bright) couldheve se objection to the course whir-114d been
taken, but he was Tres to admit that they weld not exagge-
rate the ameeme of geed which thie treaty would produce to
this ocmatry, and to Frame, and to Europe ganerolly.
(Hear, heat.) It was • peat question, sod worthy of •
peat debate. (Hear, bear.) Than letthem discuss
ft properly, and let it be acknowledged that one
aide of the hours was la favour of It, and the other
she avast it. Let them inks • manful course, and not one
Me the prevent. Bose hes. menbars had complained of the
snide In reference to ad. That gamine could be seeded
try and bye, but everybody knew that the whole navy
Enlace did not cam so as such e Goal one single
could supply ; hedged It wog, as the right hon. gentlemen
opposite (Mr. Disraeli) said of the National Debt loot year, a
mews fleabite. ("Hear, ken," sad laughter.) It might be
that the right hoe. gentleamt was not ativer.e to the treaty,
but that he merely desired the hone should take • more
sensible sod expeditious mode of cossidering the question
se it inflected the public intones (Hear, hear) He
would frankly admit that he WO SO much Is favour
el the treaty that he coed take it es it stood, and he was so
mace is favour of the budget that he goad take it se It wan
(Hear, hear) But he did sot ask others to do the same, ace
could he sok the House of Commons to adopt his view.,
bat he could ask the hoed to esselber that greet Interests
were Involved is this metier. and that they had no right
night after eight to make these great iamb the stalking-
horse for • petty light. (Chora) Ng/wooer= the govern-
ment should adopt the entree which the right bon. iteatle.
wan nnommended, could the hones go through the resole-
none in a convenient mammal They would aim he able
toms iotv all the dotage of the treaty, sad they
is shut out from din-using these gat ass which the
Cheacollor of the Exchequer Intended they should have an
syysisityof doing. That right hoe. puttee. 'iota* a
seer ealeablvsg investigation into the treaty, the details of
edge were amprised In • largeproperties la et e budget.
New Nibs, adopts/ the treaty Is balk they would get rid of

It, sttd Ea am limy same to the realutloa of the Chia-
aka ef the Ezoluquer they would gad theamelvsm pre-
cluded ban may examined= of outs- half of his pro-
posa/s, Therefore it wss cher that the coarse which
the right Wan. gentle.= rsedaacuteded would shut
the house out hum their prtvilsp, their dwy„ pat
that right of examining seriatim every propped whirl the
ClaseMe of the Exchequer would ley bs/ors them.

Kr. & FITZGERALD protested 4alost the reply of Mr.
Gladahos to Kr. Diarnsii u chareoterbed by more unfair-
hue W mitejaaatatatiaa thee arty aiseett Le bed its,
kaatd la that house. He then eith no marked variation lo-
psided the arguments which had been used on the side of
Ike quid= which he edema:tea, except a pee4ng sneer at
Lad J. Russelre capacity for the conduct of foreign affairs
may halo aciaithrod.

Lord 3. RUSSELL said that Ewes only from the two last
=t the other side of the hem that be usderdood
on
amps and °hied of 'hateable was • otnaideration of
and discussion on every adiale of the treaty, • conies which
would be inconsistent with the prerogative of the crown, sad
that proposition came from a party calling half conser-
vative. It was claiming • right larger than that exercised
by the Senate of the United Sadie. Mr. Pitt, in 1786, did
not submit all the articles of his treaty to toe house, but
only those which required the assent of parliament. The
°ours' adopted by the goverment now was the only plain
and rational course which they could pursue. Referring to the
article on coal, which had been used es an argument as ii it
contained a secret intention of war on the part of France, he ob-
jected to suchincessant intimations of the warlike intentions
of that country aphid England; and expressed his belief
that the treaty originated in the opinion entertained by the ,
Emperor of the power of fee trade to make Frances peon-
porous and happy in pesos as he desires to see her strong and
prepared for war. He believed too, that ere long
that portion of the people of Francs who were most in favor
of prohibition would see the adventste of a system which
was founded on the principles of *tetrads. He indignantly
protested against a small and undedsed attack on a great
measure which, if at all, should nodose fair, open, straight-
forward, and manly opposition.
11r. HORSHAM said, if he might be allowed to tell the
Chancellor of the Exchequer what he thought wee the real
distinction between Sir R. Peers policy and his, he would
say it was this, that Sir R. Peal was • gentleman who laid
out • portion of his income in draining his land expecting
that from • larger produce he would get means to pay his
debts; while the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Iowa& afraid,
rather represented the spendthrift who squandered the money
which might have fertilised the soil, and when his debts fell
due went on the highway and robbed the first comer—(load
cheers from the opposition). He must soy that be con-
sidered the proposed remission of the paper duty beyond all
comparison the mod important financial missuie submitted
to parliament by any minister of our day, not from the nature
or amount of the tax, but from the principle they were es-
tablishing and the grave consequences which might flow
from it. (Hear, hear.) But the abolition of one source of
revenue and the substitution of an income tax was no relief
from taxation ; it was only shifting the tax from one class to
another. (Hear, hear.) It was manifestly uejuat that the
Chancellor of the Ittobequer should dwell for three
Cana:of an hear upon the evils of the tax
se abolishing, and peon by without one
single word the greater fraud and immorality he was perpe-
trating. This year the government had • measure to remit
the paper duty—(cries of "Question")—and by suchmems
they went on from step to step, year by year remitting in-
direct taxes and levying direct taxes—(Opposition cheers) ;
and they did this without any inquiry sa to their justice.
(Hear, hear.) By this means they were shifting the whole
taxation of the country from on. class on to another, which
being done without any inquiry became arbitrary and tyran-
nical class taxation of the worst kind. (Loud Opposition
' cheering) The house might well complain that the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer was inflicting heavy burdens of taxation
and enforcing these upon new principles; but the right hon.
gentleman might mower that he was only carrying out the
policy of the government under this new treaty, their policy
being to have • large war estimate this year, in order to give
us security spinet France. But the house might say,
" Why, you have jut concluded a treaty of peace with
Franco. Let us ass that treaty, because then you may re-
duos thaws estimates " The government, however, refused,
and said it required • large increase in the estimatei, became
It had now to raise taxes for war, and at the same time
to pay subsidies for peace. (Hear, hear.) We addressed
our allies with a sword in one head and •
sop In the other—(chasm)—and whits we remitted two mil-
lion of taxation we added ten millions to the sum en soooant,
In order that we might be prepared to meet the Emperor in
the shook of war. (Hear, hear.) It was this double policy
which ha could not comprehend. We had at one and the
mine time the commas of peace sad the expenses of war.
If we could have peace with France let the government make
every effort that a civilised end Christian country could make
to obtain the bigwigs alma, sad to avert the crime. and
calamities of war. If, on the other head, we were to have
weir with France, let us gird up ourselves for that war ;
but this system of peace and war expenses wee
altogether grievous and perplexing. (Hem, hear.) It
wee small comfort to be able to say that the house
knew the government had pace on their lips when they had
war in their budgets and in their councils. (Opposition
cheers.) Therefore they said, " Produce your treaty."
(Loud cheering from the opposition.) The hon. member foe
Birmingham had said, " Why don't you manfully oppose
the treaty ?" (Government chows.) The noble lord the
member for the City of London and the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer cheered that , but what he (Mr. Herman) would
say was, " Why don't you manfully produce the treaty, and
ask our opinion of it"—(oppoeition cheering)—and ask the
house, ea Mr. Pitt did, to go into committee mad pronounce
judgment upon it. (Hear, hear.) But there was one great
blot In the treaty which made the government unwilling
to discuss it. The treaty was but • screen and
cloak for those armaments of Francs which we
should have to rival. (Cheers.) If its object was peace,
why did not the negotiations of the government go more
directly to the point ? (Hear, hear.) Why not have told
the Emperor of the French that it was this rivalry of arms-
menta which was the great bar to peace—(opposition cheers)
—and that we would reduce our French tariff if he on his
side would dismantle his navy, which would be a great
saving to us ? (Hear_ bear.) A negotiation of that kind
would have ambled the government to come down
to the bonne with clean hands. He should like
to know whether any part of the negotiation was
to turn upon the respective armaments of the two countries. '
Hs considered that if it were not pointed out to Franca that
it was this rivalry of armaments that stood in the way of
peace, a great duty had been neglected. (Hear, hear.) If
any each negotiation was attempted, and failed, then he
thought it would have been more befitting English ministers
to have said, " We decline • delusive treaty, which we must
submit to parliament supported by professions which
our sots deny." (Hear, hear.) The government
ought to have said the English were a plain-
dealing, troth-loving people. (Hoar, bear.) The
house would have thought it an insult on their uerstand-
Inge if they had been told they were not arming against
France. Everybody knew that we had been arming to the
teeth, and yet at such a time the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was abolishing the drake on French wines and tax-
ing Beglish beer— (laughter, and opposition obsers)—ed-
mating luxuries, and taxing the necessaries of Hfs of the
poor—(bear)—relleviug French customs and raising the
English income-tax, out of favour and friendship to a rival
against whom we were arming, drilling, fortifying, volun-
teering and bedgeetering—(loud laughter, and cheers)—to
prepare for a war, not for empire, bat.for oar very exist-
ence. (Cheers.)
Lord PAL MERSTON would not have taken part in the
debate but for the speech that had just been delivered. All
the other speeches had Imo utterly demolished by the
Mel:mess of Mr. Madam and Lord 1. Ruseall. He vin-
dicated the course taken by the government, which he
thought so clear that he wondered that a division was
sought on the present moths, so clearly was it • mistake
sod an Inadvertence. Mr. Herman, seeing that the
opposition were in great distress, like • good Sama-
ritan delivered • speech which he had prepared for a
different occasion and another phase of the discomfits,
and without touching on the melon, dashed into the whole
question of the budget. Hie arguments went to advocate a
system of non-intercoms* with Pram, for anything which
tended to make her more and more industrial was
a danger to England. (Mr. onman here rose to explain,
but Lard Palmerston did not give way for some time; the
oppoaition loudly cheering Mr. Horsoldi, and the noble lord
being as loudly cheered on Dia side.) He should not follow
that right hon. gentleman's example of going foto the budget,
beyond denying the assertion that it was a falling away
from the principles of Sir Robert Peel. The question be-
fore the house was only one of procedure, and that &lone.
• peat crowd of members had gatbered behind the
bar, la readiness for a division, end immediatoly on Lord
Pelmergeon's Miming his /OM, there were loud cries of
"Divide." Mr. Bowyer rows sad was understood to
move the adjournment of the debate; but the proposition
was received with such overwhelming signs of disappro-
bation. that he withdrew it. The question was then
put. During the meal interval there were sons arise
of " Agreed ;" but on the question being pot a second
time, a tremendous shoot of " No" answered the " Ayes"
from the right. The house win cleared at twenty minutes
post twelve ; aid at twenty-five minutes to ens the tellers
emerged from the crowd that blocked up the doorway. The
appearance of Mr. Brand, the government teller, bearing
the paper, was the signal for loud cheers from the minis-
terial benches. The numbers were :

Ayes (for the motion)
Nees (for the amendment) 230

Government majority .. 83

Mr. DU CANE said that as the amen talent of his right
hon. friend had tam ragedved,he beloved that, according to
the forms of the how, a mooed resolution by way of amead•
went could not be moved alma tie maw question. He begged
to give notice that to-morrow area the motion for plug into
immolates ho should mows a resolution by way of anund-
moot in as nearly elosilar terms to the motion which stood
la his name as tho taros of the haws would permit, (Hsu.)
Lord TALMIRSTON sold ha was diepeed to offer every
locality to the bae. seetimeem. N, span emleideratieet he
thought it right to penevore with his motion, (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT asked whether it was quite understood
whether the home would p le-raserow with the motion
for remaine cia the eestaies, se he bed heard some doubts
expreend es the subject during

TM hoar am met fato committee pro forma.
Lord PALMERSTON said he hoped that those hon. gen-
tlemen who bad mediae an the paper for to-morrow would
make those arniogrmasta which it woe umlt rattaA the othtr
daz would be made, op this occasion. (Hear, hoar.)
The home then reemmd. _ _

The report of the committee of eupgly Wae thee brmght up.
The Consolidated Fund (407,6490 Bill pared through
committee. _ _ _

CORONERS.

Mr. CLIVE obt.dird lame to brim is a bill to amend the
law in rola,ion to roomaseatka oionrows.
DWELLINGS FOR LABOURING CLASSES

(IRELAND).
Sir. W. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring in a bill
to extend the Act to facilitate the Improvement of Landed Pro.
perty to Ireland, and the acts amending the same, to the
emotion of doodle,. for the labouring deems In belied.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT (1864).
Mr. R. JAM E 8 nominated the select committee to inquire
into the operation and effect of the Corrupt Practices Pleven-
Aot (1864) :—Mr. E. James, Sir G. Innis, Sir G. Grey,
Mr. Walpole, Sit F. Kelly, Mr. Mellor, Mr. George, Mr.
Arlan, r. Philippe, Mr. E. Egerton, Mr. BOUVIMO, Mi.
Roebuck, Mr. Hardy. Mr. Collier, and Mr. Ker Seymer.
Five to be the quorum.
The bones rose at 5 minutes before 1.

ELECTION CO MITIES&

The general committee on elections met yesterday
to choose committees to try the merits of thepetitiens against
the returns for Weymouth and Carlisle; the Right Hon.
Mr. Walpole in the chair. The following selection was
made:

WiTMOIITIL-Mr. E. Egerton (chairman), Mr. W. P.
Ad
gon.ana, Mr. J. G. Dodson, Sir E. Grogan, and the Hon. F.
Ly
Ckausx.x.-111r. J. K. Cobbett (chairman), Mr. Crawford
Marquis of Hartingtoz, Lord H. Montage