The Express.
London, England, 1860-03-27 00:00:00

1 termination of the war. Now it is t the trans-
fer of that provion from the King of to the Em-
peror .4 the French is a dangerous midi*, ot that tern-
( tory, and though not in the treaty it beanie en important
, respeo. it may be indirectly, but it does tneich in an im•
I portant respect on the indepiocleoes of Switzerland. Fur
Thothatreast4eps.rdfle, . Bwithr i
tisnd has a sleds as M.
uv h.
part of the Benperor of the
Freovh. to the Canoes powers of Europe, and the French
government have niceived—as they say—favourable answers
Aron; seven! .4 those powers. GE the other head, Sent•
serlen.l has appealed to the
,power of Europe with • view
ho III:W.02 li,r neutrality intact, and with a Mew to her
haul, ludependeisee. Now this is • question which does
not roiiiire merely an answer on our part to the despatch of
1 M. Tie iuvenel, but it doe. require—and it requires in the
' ommou of her Majesty's government—that we should en
! deavoor to ma-getout what is the opinion at
I Vienna. what is the opinion at Berlin, and what
likewise is the opinion at St. Petersburg on
this subject. We have ascertained so far, that without
: coming to any coocert, without any decided course being
meee,i upon, or hardly piopossi, the court of Berlin
and the curtof Vienna do attach the highest importance
', to the neutrality of Switzerland. (Cheers.) And accord-
keg to the treaty which we raid of in the newspapers of to-
day, the powers of Europe will be called upon to say
whether the 'entice of Switaerland will be safe. Ido nut
think this is a negotiation that can be canted on by this
house. I do not think that the members of this house,
atiiiii6 by majorities and minorities, could decide what
he the communications made to Berlin and to
Vienna, and St. Petersburg, and whether we might
sod get some co-operation nu the part of Russia. The
(light hon. gentleman despises our abilities ; he thinks that
We are an object of contempt, and therefore so far as he is
41.108TOCA, be gives us at once a vote of want of confidence.
list this house her not taken away its coalkience from us,
Mid till there is a vote that they have done so, we shall
think ourselves entitled to men on this • tion, end to
plow before this house, when it acne' the result of it.
it I for this mason, with • view of giving more information
te the house than las do at present, that I have hitherto
withheld the :Inner that has been gives to M. Thouvenel's
ilimrtcli. I .bo not wish to follow the right hon. gentleman
In Ls depreciation of the character of the Emperor of the
Trench, but it is obvious to me that the course which has
been pursued, as I expected from the nom and as I have
said frankly to theFreuch government. has already produced
• great deal of dentist. I believe myself that if when the
war was berm but year the Emper.o of the French and
the King of Sardinia had said plainly to the world, "The
1 King of Sardinia has to sustain a great war against the Ems
rem of Austria, he cannot sustain it alone ; the Emperor of
the French has determined to help him, but the Emperor
of the French experts, and ha. stipulated by treaty with
the King of Sardinia, that if the territories of the king
are very much in..reamil in Italy, a portion of the territory
of the king neighbouring cloudy upon France and the
French side of the Alpe, shall be given to the Emperor of
the French "—I believe if that opinion had been de.
elated—it being • bargain Dot so unlike others
that have occurred in the history of Europe--ii
great amount of indignation would have been laved.
But I must say that the circumstances which have
occurred, the meaner in which the question has been brought
forward, the tone taken by the Sardinian government, the
rape/mime which it used, that it meant neither to sell, nor
exchange, nor s.orenler Savoy—(hear, hear)—that con-
duct. taken torther with that of the Emperor of the French,
has poshiesel a great distruat in tliis country. I believe it
will produce a great distrust all over Europe. I very much
doubt wheth.y strong resolutions or even strong language on
the pro t of this hoise would have induced a greet effect
500u_ the ultimate issue of this question. We have been
Mid that the passionate language held in this house
trade it necessary for the French nation to insist
upon what their Emperor was doing, and that it
would he a loss of honour to their country not to
support him. Ido not attach aluell importance to that re-
rmentation. It is evident it is a plausible pretext. But
be that as it may, therAu.ve been declarations from the
*timing of these discussions. Immediately after the first
discussion that took photos in the Howe of Lords it was tie-
• red in the French newspapers, and through them all
over Europe that although strung language might be used
en this subject we had no intention of going to war. The
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Horatian) in one of his speeches
said we might lie quite sure there would he no one in this
louse who wished to go to war about Savoy. Now, if
there had been an entire liberty to her Majeety'srmernment
to negotiate on this subject, although certainly they would
not have threatened war, although certainly they weuld
still less have pledged the government and the
eonntry to go to war, still it is a very diffe-
rent thing not saying anything on the subject,
and ilecLulog at the commencement of the negotiation that
whatever might be the issue it would not lead to war. My
opinion,as I declared it in./eau:try and afterwards, awl whia
I have no objection to repeat now, is that Buchan set as the
annexation of Savoy is one that ill lead a nation so warlike
as the French to all ou its government from time to time
for other acts of a similar nature, and therefore I do feel
that, however we may wish to lire on the most friendly
terms with the Fresh government, we ought not to keep
ourselves apart from other nations of Europe—(loud led
long continued cheers)—hut that when future ijuestione I
may arise, sfuture question, may arise, we shall b. read,'
to act with others, and to declare, always in the most mode-
, rate terms, always iu the moat friendly tennis, but still
firmly, that the settlement of Europe, that the peace of
Europe, are matters dear to this country; and that that
settlement and that peace cannot be assured if they are
liable to perpetual interruptions—(cheers)—to abstain
foam to doulst awl rumours with regard to the annexation
of this country, with respect to the anion or junction of
that other country, but that the powers of Europe, if they
inMod to maintain the peace, must respect each other's
eights—(cheers!--must respect each other's limits, and
mud endeavour to restore, and not to disturb—to restore
list commercial confidence which is the result of peace,
width tends to and which ultimately forms the hap-
' pious olf natians._ _ (Livid cheers.)
Lord J. ILILNIfEIe said that the ready cheer which ran
through the home when the noire lord bomn the conclud-
ing port of his speeeh must have been very gratifying to the
nght hon. gentleman who had commenced this decumbia.
That pert of the noble lord's speech bail certainly given
him (Lord J. Moaners) very great pleasure; because be
hailed it as an augury of a return on the part of her Ns-
jolty's government to those alliances, nod to those friendly
feel.nr which ought never to have been interrupted.
(Cheers.) He (Lord J. Manners) could not sit down
without tendering his sincere thanks to the hon.
member for Bridgewater (Mr. Kinglake), the hon.
member for Tarnwurth (Sir R. Peel), and the right
lion. gentleman (Mr. Horsmnn) for the patience, the perse-
verance, the ability, anti the thoroughly English indepen-
dence with which they had brought the subject wider the
consideration of the house. (Cheep.) The noble lord, also,
had touched in his concluding observations a chord that
would vibrate from one end of England to the other.
(Hear, hear.) He (Lord J. Manners), trusted that, if ever
they hail to discos., these great quaellons again, they would
do so in the spirit of those observation. ; and that the coun-
try would hereafter feel that its foreign policy was safe in
the Ningbo of these ministers to whom fur the time being it
had been entrusted. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT observed that the question what was the
direct sad e' - - ' ' •

hope I have on inch occaalons done sonisthing to render
their pesitimi implement —(" beer, hear' and laughter)
—but 7 have always acted upon this plan. Every govern-
msot—even that of Lord Derby—scomtimes does things
that are right (laughter)—and then I have always been
happy to give them my support. But on the other hand,
even such 'overarming as that of the noble enema are
apt to make peat mistakes, and my course has been to attack
them upon those mistakes. ( Cheers, and laughter.) But
the right boo. gentleman not only meltes war moot the go-
vernmett, but upon all the party with whom teethe Lot
20 years it is supposed that be has been acting. The
right hon. gentleman makes war upon all the part of his
own life • sad for a gentleman of his power of debate, Of
comprehending questions, and of being useful both to the
Howe of Commons and to his country, it is • lamentable
thing to see him committing, as I think, so great a mistake.
(Cheers.) With regard to the main object, as new, I am
to the home placing iteelf in the humiliating posi-
n which it has so often of late been invited to occupy—
tof barking when it sloes not intend to bite, and of
making itself, not the guardian of the powers of Europe, for
that would be foolish and impossible enough—but making
itself the common scold of all Europe. (('heers and laugh-
ter.) Nothing can be more humiliating, nothing more
hopeless than such a position. I am not sure that some of our
debates, pernicious as they have been in other respects, have
not ratheraffected the judgment of the poble lord at the bead
of foreign affairs. Ido not perhaps quite understand the
observations with which thin noble lord closed his speech—
(oh, oh)—but the aoble lord opposite (Lord J. Manners),
always glad to ally himself with that which civilisation is
day by day departing from, namely, privilege grid despotism
--(renewed MN " oh, oh ")—rose ievwdiaWyfto ooaipli-
meat the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Mike, and
to say, whet I have never heard him say before, via, how
grateful he felt to the noble lord for the opinions he had ex-
and for the coarse which the government
were about to take. The house are aware that
I have more than once expressed en opinion that a close
pensonal alliance between the Sovereign of this and the
Sovereigns of other countries is not, in my opinion, silvan.
Lamle to England, nor indeed to Europe. I think the
noble lord means to take that coune which, in the impar-
tial opinion of every one, must be admitted to be wise and
good—he intsods, namely, that the policy of England shall
in future not be such as to estrange England from any of
the governments of Europe—that it shall not be each to
France on the one side, or to Austria on the other, as shall
make one of those powers the embittered enemy of NM.
land ; but such as will enable England to
i tag,
an mpartial position among the governments of
giving her opinion, as she is only hound to give it, coy
the question does not immediately affect her own interest—
only when die is asked for it If this were the peeper ore
moon I should take the noble lord to task for Use emus
which has been taken with regard to Naples. Moe is
nothing which I believe is more firmly and more
established than that the pest policy of Engler:wet:=
to various matters connected with the governments et emir
tinental Europe has been a policy not Wading to bar
honour, not good for her 'people, diesistroes te her I
finances, needlessly meddling, and of no advantage he liar
whatever. (Opposition cheers.) I am not asking for hpay
of entire and absolute isolation but I believe Mist a
policy of isolation would be better than • policy of bow
sant meddling. (Cheers.) I hope the noble lord tab
this course--that Ise will move with France, when be he.
to move with her, clearly, frankly, honourably, and is a
manner that cannot be mistaken. I know the maids lord
will never truckle to any power in Europe, but I hope bowel
so conduct the policy of this country that all the nation
of Europe may my that which! believe they have heretetwe
not said, that England is a power that regards its own great
interests, namely—that it interferes not in Europe wham
interference can be avoided, and that when it does interfere
it interferes, not for the sake of de,lrading one power or of
exalting another, but in favour of those great pnaciples of
justice and moderation which it is necessary to °Mena it
the peace of Europe is to be preserved. (Cheers.)
Alter some observations from Lord C. HAMILTON,
Mr. A. KINGLAKE stated that Mr. aiOt's apse*
was characteristic of the man, showing, as it &d,
reliance in the infallibility of hie own opinions his
total ignorance of thew of other men, and as reprint the
latter especially so of his, in attributing to him a leanbig to
and indeed a patronage of Sardinia, while the had patio.
man was equally at fault in declaring that Savoy as a
province was politically worthless. He expressed his
heartfelt gratification at the statement of Lord J. Boma
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY recalled the home to the ques-
tion before them, which was the report of the committee
of Ways sod Means on the income-tax, against which as it
stood he still protested.
Sir J. PAKINGTON egishal to know what was the exact
estimated amount of the income-tax.
Mr. DEEDk took that opportunity of expressing his
dissent to the financial policy of Mr. Gladstone.
After a conversation.
Mr. GLADSTONE sail the short discussion showed how
difficult it was to adjust the inequalities of the income-tax.
The amount expected from the tax was 10,722,000/. The
system of poundage to collectors of the tax required revi-
non, sad it ought to be attempted when the house imposed
the income-tax for a term of ten years ; or it might be in.
eluded in a measure which would be proposed for the pur-
poses of bringing the system of collecting ameseed taxes more
under the centre! of the government.
Mr. DISRAELI entered into a somewhat general cri-
ticism of the financial scheme of Mr. Gladstone, and
took occasion to observe that that gentleman had adopted
some of the very principles which he had fiercely denounced
in his (Mr. Disraeli's) budget in 1652. He did not think
that, as had bees said, the Emperor of the French had any
complaint against the house, which was doing his work as ex-
peditiously as his own minister could have done, and at the
lam time introducing a new and dangerous scheme of
midst the revenue.
Mr. LAING showed by figures that the bulk of the
revenue was derived from indirect, as opposed to direct
taxation.
After some further conversation, the report was agreed
to, as was that on the other resolutions.
REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENSES
BILL
Mr. Haorm.n, Mr. Anew, Mr. Caoog, Mr. Kra
fermi, Mr. J. Ewan?, Mr. W. Wn.Ltios, and other
ban. members, presented petitions against the proposals of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer as regarded wine licenses
and refreshment homes ; that by Mr. Ewart, from licensed
vietnallers in Liverprol, said the government plan would
lied to absolute confiscation of public-house property.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to
move the second reading of the bill.
Mr. Maros two or three times row to address the
house before the Chancellor of the Exchequer proceeded,
but the right bun. gentleman continued to stand at the
table ; and at length
The SPEAKER ruled that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was in powesion of the house.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then pro.
welled to say that there were two fundamental propel.
boos on which the bill was founded. They were,
M the first place, that tie channels for the distri-
bution of wine were most improperly, and even
ludicrously restrained, and it was highly im-
portant that they should give facilities for the retailing of
wine, not to he consumed on the premise., but for ordinary
family we. The other funilanieutal u•- that
'es channels • -

... .
--- ---- -- -- . -- - --- „.._ proposition was, 0...
.__
__ —. eisar interest uf this °angry in the 'abject of the ..u._
.iii-ty,-,.-4. -01 wine ware unduly restricted in dim-maim wee always evaded. He stoat there for the in• •to the sale of other descriptions of strong
tared. of Beglauil ; he
_repudiatal altogether the pert takes Sar."3.A germeeteen
by Sir It. Awl and Mr. Kinglake on behalf of Switzerland of the hi eased victuallers
milted 1101111 him to show the sufficiency of the pre.
and
''enlial‘uti....-e "re-atesisted a geese English Wralitga". est ebeemels A i the sale off drollg liquont, Yid there wen
and had so ---.......ea Ws gilletioes except so fares
it sus illemed matte louse& The beer houses brought up respected the bosom and intonate of _ _ ,En -land. Sardinia the „maw te agAge Beer wee the national drink, sea agreed to the treader of Savoy ; politically, he considered there amid be • eidlciency of houses hemmed for the Mb
ti • worthleme province, and she had cob noted France of it. igen to beer the greeted facilities should be gime
by this transfer for what she had done for her
, for the wale of wine ; be
what was the Mate et to kw et
at hetheekeecltaiediaae. nwazin'forThe:e eh.iaLeirenmeminbezntr kndruwilham77. this moment? No me could have a hems fer Ike min
el
wipe unless he bed • license for the male of spirits aim, bed
wally deeply intereltel in 'the matter..., The
, r-aglidi press a man might haves license for the sale of spirits without
has certainly tort evinced shy consideninse alarm. There is, hieing a Lk.. for th. aide of wine. He appealed to the ed-
ge be sure, a newspaper in Loudon that is celebrated, or, inmates of temperance and sobriety whether it WWI possible rather, is notorious, for something like a mixture of piety to justify a date of things like that :I Onto
of the 63,000
and rufilanant which has never been equalled in the press houses that were licensed for the sale of beer, oaly
before. (" Name, name.") That paper eradeavours day ow ,„, ikon.' fur the sale of Wine. It was after day to stir up the ill feelings of this country by vitu-
perating everything connected with the French people and under them cirmunstancee that with the esinfullent
anticipation of the favourable judgmelht of the house, he
their goveresneed ;bat beyond that lamat a leas-to and asked them to join it considering this measure. He wen
any that agree" say serious alarm about the question. I bound to my that with regard to the quality of the who
do not hesidele le ettprms a sustoieion that ha. filled my which was supplied to the public he thought it flail is
mind. It slinald be remembered that at this moment enlarge the channel. of supply, so as to produce the leis
there is is Prams ao there was in England 150 years ago, a riple of competition. They would thus improve the ...
r, q-41-. at a`nmetY" The Perth*" 4 deposed that was eollt They all knew what description of me
yeasties as realise earl imscrupulous ; and lam not at sold for wine in this country. With the eremites of an certain that mesas have not been taken ley those peril- wY
hotels of • certain class, where at a very high peas ea-
mina who had so frienbl. p for England while they anent wines were obtained, no pen or tongue could adz.
ware conceded with the government of Fraace--means quetely describe the_ liquor that in onlinary public-hawse
which do ad come to the light of day- for the purpose of wee sold as wine. Why, the white wine was a mixture el influencing the press and pahhe opinion in general through.
Are and water, and the red wine which was sold as oat England against the existing government of France, wee a emp,,,,e,1,4 ,geehemic,e,i,,therbenies.cmg
And this is done not with any good antentioes towards Est ly not so harmless, with a certabi I
land, but for objects good only to a family or a faction,who, i gale!,e,' ~ed te.,,peeettee he also laid downqrjrneseur It
when they were in mower, war not able to maintain them- I any useful and salutary measure was this--thell wbstever wolves in at, sad who have no claim whatever upon the in- 1 they might do with regard to the control of the par mid of Own! of this country to replace them in the 1300-1 the magistracy, Boyer
would out he re=dife for
ties they here feet Ph, oh.) I,_ ennrelts I en„,...Y. producing in a newilermthat which at premed mai
lad any on in England who reillY fee' alarm upon '''. licensing system. m. present licensing system lespased C.sistio' ri, and the only people who I believe are really in a duties on magistrates which ie was unpomilde for me allite of peat immidat:on are the right bon. member for . eldidactorily to discharge. It made them judgee of tie
bed Mr. lienmae). the bon. member for Bridgewater uautity of liquor which human beings ought to ceesemt ei ri...zi one or two
ur) ollitlisers.rigilloh:o...) Well; : ?hi: some
am shtari
i!,haeyfixd:itesrainzdrt litilitt.thzhnerumplbz:
tells'
Fife= '
for Streslhea this evening touched upon a gumlike' which dered that with aeasing population there shooldbeemite•
II it • great pity that he did not further explain. It ex- creased number nonce
ceneed houses In Manchester time mei •
wed in the right bat. gentlenian's defence of freedom of smaller number of hemmed homes at the foment time time
speech. New, lam Dot about to contest that point. The thee was tweety y ..n ago. in Li„,poot. on the ie..,
hems aims me to use freedom in my spee.M. I shall nary, the magistrates did not entertain that view, and thaw
ell awas." of 50Y one el" using it. But the the number of public•house., although the populatise was
Immourakir gentleman has intinisksi by what nee very different, was threefold Mays what it wee is '
iiii-ealds est having failed, parliament had power mancherters There was an inequality in the irystem which
MI6 segiesthing that iplornacy bed not Well, what has ought sot he maw" hoes., if thew things wise to he
gedlament power to do under such circumstances! It mud I regideted by mithiority there "sight to be one intelligent
Mbar seccausb, or proceed to a mode of macrame which . prrhetpk, eed ger...thing lace univernity in diefeeent parte
111 dillsrast from that of diplomacy. Did the right hoc iof the country, It was Dot only that the premed liereing
glegimmegrefer to that latter °nurse ? I system was %wettish but it eamedered
the greats* heart.
, - fir.. MNIIAN said he did Dot to burning. He tel not wish eater into it, bet he mew
Kr. HIINOHT-No ; because he Ina told the home that . tamed that as .me of the ressees why they were 204 MO'
11.6110. SA mean to make war upon France. But the right ' posed to reproduce the system. Moreover, they heliered
Item gendemse is determined to make war upon those who that for moral purposes the pre set system was sanely
altos the Treasury beeches ; and I have not the least ob. imacient. Anals here he
...Aibt refer. to the La=
jellies le his deisg so, though, if the right hon. gentleman ' of the licensed victualer* of of in oppomks
upon the f firs him a
wof wines' What lid they tell them of the mend teedeeity eel
se e Perraie cos, I will ,uPw'w nes' When he hl/1* '
tows of the pudic-houses that sew sat
test make war rwsury bench, he should operation in this
isst begin his ammult when they are iu the right. t Mad? In their printed statement theY actually soda**
Pallener.) I have beta opposed to government', cud I declaration "That then are in LirerlMel lASI Seemed

McPiESifulllrEsDAY EihtNl*G, MARCH 21',1 '1660.

esiblielsousee, and that there are public-houses known to
the police to be a resort of thieves and prostitutes, but still
annually licensed by the magistrates, in uumber 178." That
was • state of things which they were requested on moral
pounds not to with ; the present licensing system
had • tendeneey to create monopoly, and where there was
monopoly, proprietary Esterests, which were called meted
interests, spring up in the license to the public house.
1 There was • property in every public house in respect
of the Hamm • apart from the value of the p,.
miss and the existence of that property formed •
formidable impediment to the exercise of police and
magisterial control. Well, then, when it was proposed to
them to rear up • new ekes of houses having licensee gives
in • similar manner, the answer was obvious, that if
they were to rear up a new olio of houses licensed in that
manner, Hume 119/01/4 would awn become the nucleus of •
new mess of vested interests, and those vested interests
would effectuelly impede the control ,if the police and of
the magistracy. Short of these two propositions—the one
that they should rest contented with the present licensing
system, and the other that they should create • new licens-
or; system dependent simply on the discretion of the nia-
pstracy—then was no popontiou tending simply to give
stringent powers of control =dor punishment,botia by way
of prevention and by way at penalty, for the maintenance
of good order that they were not ready to entertain with a
desire to adopt. He would now describe the main objects i
of the bill. Those objects were three. One was to give
ealarged means for the We of wine not to be consumed on
the premises whim it was said. He thought there could
be no doubt that the mle of wine in the form where '
it would merely enter into family use, was both unexcep
tionabie and most desirable. They should require such
parties to be subject to the payment of a =dente lionise
duty. Retail shopkeepers would he entitled to take out
licenses forth* sale of wine not to be consumed on the pre- ,
mime. The bill proposed toattain one great and important ,
object of police control, which hail no connexion whatever
with strong liquors. They proposed that all houses in which .
an description of refreshment whatever was usually end 1
ordinari y sold, should be liable to the payment of • small
license duty. The ground on which this proposition was
made was that many of these houses were both the reoep-
tacks of disorderly characters and the scenes of very disor- I
Arty terminations. It was likewise state.l, and with some
probability of truth, that in many of them strong liquors
were surreptitiously sold. But he did not thiuk it neces-
sary to enter on thispoint of thequestion, locause he thought
it was the public opinion that the whole of this elms of
houses should be brought within the same of police control.
He proposed to exempt all houses below 101. rental in plasm
below a certain population. In villages and small towns
there were several houses where they sold ginger-beer,
oranges, and other trivial articles, but the sale of which did
not constitute • trade sufficient to subject them to polies
interference. As to where the line should be pro-
perly drawn might be • question of some doubt,
but the propriety of the exemption itself
he thought, be generally admitted (Hear, wairt
The third portion of the bill me that which referred to the
Beeman of eating houses for the sale of wine, and here he
had drawn a very important distinction, because the idea
had gobs abroad that all refreshment houses were to be
licensed for the sale of wine. There could not be a greeter
mistake, for it was a fundamental principle of this bill to
distinguish between refreshment houses generally, and those
which were really eating houses. In licensing eating
houses for the sale of wine they had contemplated
the creation of • system more healthful, more sane, and
attended with less of even the contingencies of evil than any
part of the present system. It appeared obvious that
nature intended the functions of eating and drinking should
be carried on together— (a Magil)—but the existing system
did everything short of absolute prohibition to separate
them from each other. The 000 sequence was that there
were at present 70,000 or 80,000 drinking houses in Eng-
land that were not eating houses at all. Not only so, but
there existed • monopoly in the sale of drink, and those
who enjoyed that monopoly possessed no monopoly in the
We of victuals. The consequence was, that the trade in
drink had been fostered and favoured by those who con-
ducted it to the comparative neglect of the trade in victuals.
His proposition that the functions of eating and drinking
should be carried on conjointly might be open to
dispute, but it wee the fact that the upper classes,
who had the power of making provision for themselves,
took care to do so through the medium of their clubs.
(Hear, bear.) All that he was about to ask for the people
was &similar provision. The upper classes were not con-
tort to be dependent upon wine purchased of the licensed
victuallers. They might pay thew 4d., Sd., or Is., for their
des, half-pint, or pint, or whatever they wanted, not alone in
Loudon, but in Manchester, Liverpool, and other towns, in
whichthe upper classes enjoyed advantages beyond the reach
of common people and the middle classes. Now, with re-
spect to these eating houses, was it not perfectly obvious
that separating eating from drinking was the most unwise
system that could be established, if it were desired to pro-
mote habits of sobriety! People who went to eating-houses
were not permitted to drink there--at least there was •
complicated machinery of sending out to the nearest public-
hoses for the juagg or glass of this or that, which in Met
imposed, peacfimllj, almost a prohibition upon the supply.
Thin was the case, in reality, excepting in inns and hotels.
The consequence was,d not that the desire for drinkingeres ex-
tinguished—that was unquenchable—but it compelled a
person to go to a place where drinking was the sole trade
carried on. (Hear, hear.) Was it possible to devise a
better scheme for promoting drunkenness' (Hear, hear.)
Then, he had been told that this bill could
not be supported because the Beer Bill had failed.
' But that argument could not apply, because the Beer Bill
wee one of a totally different character to this, the main
object of which was to unite drinking and eating, while
the practical effect of that cos to create new houses of •
' different description to those which existed, but still houses
essentially and almost solely for drinking purposes. He
might here mention a fact be had learned with respect to
what had recently taken place in Sweden. They ell
knew that the Swedrt were a people of very high intelligence
with whom Englishmen were glad to claim kindred blood
but they were also • people among whom the vice of
drunkenness very extensively prevailed. Of late years great
efforts had been made to restrain that vice with very consi-
derable success ; and one of the principal measures adopted
for the purpose had been • plan which, as be
had been told, had become universal, providing that
spirit* should not be sold in any house where
victuals were not also supplied. He was glad to be able
atouote an experience of this kind in support of the prin-
ciple of the present bill. (Hear, hear.) But besides the
renew to be gained from uniting the businesses of eating
and dridog, there was. lie thought, a great advantage in
the substituting of milder for stronger drinks. He did not
believe that the extended use of wine would act very
powerfully in limiting and restraining the use of spirits, still
lees that of beer. The population of England wax increming, not
only the population but the wealth, which alone would
enable an increased consumption of wine and beer, quite
apart from other liquors. But still there was this advan-
tage, that the bill would give much maim access t, a milder
tam of liquor then they bad previously enjoyed. With
tteeppsscctt to the use of wine, he had read that day a long letter
additesed to him, complaining that them were a great many
drunk= persons in Paris. lie should be very glad to ex-
change the drunkenness of London for that of Paris.
In fact, it was a universal principle that in countries where
wine was abundant drunkenness was rare, and the converse
principle was equally true, that where wine was scares
drunkenness was almost universal. Another advantage to
be gained by the bill wee, that it would give a more effective
system of control than any at present in existence. The
leading provisions of the bill with respect to that control
might be thus stated. All persons who kept re-
freshment houses would be compelled to apply for • wine
license, and became subject to the control of the police.
Having made that application the officer of excise would
make it known to the magistrates, who had a large power
under this bill—perhaps a power that might be called arbi-
trary—who would have the power to forbid its issue if he
could assert that the house was not an eating-hones within
the meaning of the act, or that it was • house kept
or frequented by disorderly persons. The reason
why he had given that power to the magistrates was, that if
they entitled parties undertaking to sell bread and cheese,
or some such article, for the purpose of qualifying them-
selves as estinghouse-keeper,, to take out a wine license, he
thought they would be gi • liosnee to drinking-houses
under the name of eating•homs. The object of the
bill woe to give • wine license only in clue
the business of drinking was so far subsidiary to
that of eating that the house could be declared
to be an eating-home within the meaning of the act. An
equally stringent power had been given with respect to any-
thing disorderly in the character of the house, which must
also correspond with the value of the rental prescribed by
the act, and a license could not issue to a pees= who had
been disqualified In some other place by misooaduct. As to
the provisions for the subsequent management of the
house, the license would be renewable from year
to year. It would not be just that the person
applying for • renewal of his license should have to go
through the Name promos again. Still the bill only requir-
ing magistrates, to take the initiative, gave them the same
power, if they thought fit to exercise it, as in the first
instance. He wished to state this strongly, because he waa
aware that they had placed In the bill such exceedimly
stringent powers to be exercised by magistrates, that he did
not think the house ought to confer these powers without
having its particular notice drawn to their nature.
But he thought they were justified from the nature of the
case, especially in making the first trial on the foundation of
• new system of this kind, in being stringent to the hist
degree. Besides these powers there were clauses in the
bill providing for penalties, into the details of which it was
not for him then to enter ; but amongst the most
important of them was the 25th and 28th clauses, which
were espied pesnally from the beer acts, which contained
vorr sic- dame= but which had been made mere
workable by (beiges of various kinds. There was, how-
ever, we ameadamst which he intended himself to propose
in thole& ekase, the necessity of which would be at once
recognise/. It perked that persons permitting drunken-
Men in their homes or disorderly conduct should be subject
be_ tam Oddly sawagb the original clause, which was
below from the best acts, provided penalties against persons
cal=ibat not against those guilty of drunkenness.
t he proposed cured this defect. He also
=V permitted to carry this bill into committee, to
deem he the purpose ofmualifying the home
up wells the This provision would uadoubtedly
be attended wi h.esmidsmble &amity,. because it might
happen that • landlord might do • positive good in .9p*
fz,where a bed Vammil bid been miseneelacting himself in •
by pedkag a seed team et late it to carry on the trade
the same hew wow shay be would have another house

opened. But, on the other hand, there was so much evil
attending the substitution of mew of straw for persons of
known stability, that it might render the operation of that
clause somewhat difficult. It was also provided that the
penalties should be without appail. The penalties would
not err on the aide of laxity ; they might possibly be thought
too stringent, but that might be corrected in committee.
He had now explained to the house the general tone and
scope of the bill, and of the principal provisions which it
contained. As he commenced so he concluded by saying
that he proposed the measure with no intention of making it
the precursor of an attack upon the privileges --if they were
pnvileges--now enjoyed by licensed victuallen and the
keepers of beer-houses. That question stood upon entirely
distinct and independent grounds. No doubt it would
! call for the attention of the house at some future time,
; but it formed no part of the present bill, which he rearm-
, mended as one that would have a decided tendency to pro-
mote habits of sobriety amongst the people. It would have
that effect, both by establishing a better system of control
than any that now existed, and by affording to the people
' the means of obtaining a reasonable amount of liquor with
their meals—a conjunction in which it was infinitely less
liable to abuse than when taken separately. He submitted
it to the house as an alternative to a system that compelled
a vast majority of persons in the middle and lower
classes, who were obliged in the course of their
I business or their pleasure to seek their meals
in eating-houses, to resort, if they would obtain even the
most moderate supply of their accustomed beverage, to
professed drinking-houses, to houses where drinking was
' the business, and where it consequently existed in its most
dangerous form. He offered the measure to the house not
only as a wise and judicious fiscal regulation, which he
trusted would receive the sanction of parliament, but also as a
bill which promised to confer benefits of no slight amount,
both social sod moral, upon the community. (Cheers.)
Mr. WYLD moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. AYRTON seconded the motion, on the ground that
as the bill was a taxing bill, it could not be conveniently
dimmed until the house had considered the tax itself in
committee. It was hardly possible to imagine a more im-
portant question than that which the measure involved •
for it was really whether the house should impose a MI
upon a particular class of shopkeepers; and at the proper
time he should be prepared to state at length the objections
which he entertained to it.
Mr. WYLD moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. AYRTON argued that, as this was a taxing bill,
there should be a resolution in committee, which would
afford an opportunity of discussing its fiscal merits.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that
it was a taxing bin.
Upon a division, the motion for adjourning the debate
was negatived by 110-to 122.
. Ultimately, however, the debate was adjourned.
A propoes.Vtocliscuss this bill at a morning sitting on
Thursday provoked a sharp discussion, and was in the end
abandoned.
The boom then went into committee on the Customs
Acts, when certain resolutions were agreed to.
The other orders having been disposed of, the house, after
some further business, adjourned at 1 o'clock.