The Express.
London, England, 1860-08-10 00:00:00

BILL

Oei the motion for the se;ondTeading of this bin,
Mr. F.. JAMES moved as an amendment that, before pro-
ceeding farther with this bill, it is desirable that this house
should be in pamemion of further information as to the OD-
tire cost of the construction and efficient maintenance of
t►e sea defences, and the proposed land fortification% db.

Sit C. NAPIER seconded the motion. If the French
chose they could laud their troops on any part of
our coast they liked ; hut we might impend upon
it they would fight for London only, and our I
fortifications at Portsmouth or elsewhere would be
of no use. Mr. Tiermy once said in the House of Com-
mons, "With a full exchequer and a well-manned
navy, I would defy the world. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir C.
Napier) said the same. If Louis Napoleon was
serous, did they think Le would wait for three years till
three fortifications were ready? He (Sir C. Napier) did,
then, humbly beg the House of Commons and the country
to think well before they went to this absurd expense--an
expense which no one in his senses would think of incurring.
He counselled the government to turn their attention to the
manning of the fleet as the best and only safe means of put-
ting the oountry in • proper state of defence. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT expressed his gratitude to his hon.
and learned friend the member for Marylebone for the
brevity be used in introducing the question. The hon. and
learned member wished to know whatsum was proposed tobe
taken for laud defences us contrasted with sea defences. The
works proposed to be constructed at once would cost from
first to hat about 5 millions, of which sum 21 millions
would bo required for land, and 2) millions for sea de-
fences; but at the same time it was questionable whether
some of the land defences, such as those at Dover, ought
not more properly to be included es sea defences. With
regard to the maintenance of the works, be might
state that the cost of maintaining the works
at present erected amounted to about a quarter
per cent per annum of the original outlay. Of
comae the new works would involve an addition to the
standing army of the country, but the addition would not
be very considerable. With regard to the remarks of the
hon and gallant member for Southwark, it was unneces.
eery to attempt an elaborate reply, as the amertions of the
gallant admiral were so contradictory that one entirely
answered another. The whole idea .4 his hon. and gallant
friend appeared to be that the fleet was never to be used as
a means of offence, but was to remain a purely defensive
force, and that the whole power of our navy was to lie
warded in defending the arsenals and dockyards. (Hear.)
As to the expense .4 the fortifications at Portsmouth, lie
believed that 1,12),(100f. would he required for the coast
defences, and 800,0U0/. for those on land. The estimates of
the commission had, however, been purposely made large
to cover contingencies. _ _ _

Colonel DICYN)N objected to the expenditure for law:
defences, on the ground that they were entirely unneces-
sary, except in emae of a sucemful invasion, which be
thought was perfectly illusory.

Lord F.LCHO rid he wished to tender his best thanks
to the noble lord at the head of the government for the
course he had thought it right to pursue in reference to this
question, and he hoped the noble lord would not be induced
to relax in his purpose of putting the ocsuitry in a thorough
state of defence by the carping criticisms which the measure
now before the house bath undergone. (Hear, hear.) The
inhabitants of this peace-loving land bed for the last twelve
months been orgisisiug and drilling themselves till a vo-
lunteer army of 138,000 men bad swung into existence.
(Hear.) That movement had met with the approval of the
(,dueen and of all classes of her subjects. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. and gallant gentleman opposite (Colonel Dickson)
seemed to imply that it was the result of a panic, but he
(Lord Melo) utterly repudiated any each idea.
Colonel DICKSON said he wished to explain that what he
stated was not that it had arisen from a panic, but that the
feeling bad grown up from the injudicious fostering by high
authorities of that idea.

Lord ELCHO continued. He could assure the hon. and
gallant gentleman that the volunteer movement was not the
result of a panic—(hear, hear) ;—but it arose from a deep
sense of shame that* country like this should be liable to
panics. (Hear, hear.) Not that there was any unniinent
danger of an invasion by France, or Russia, or any other
continental power, but from a belief that in the event of
such being attempted this country was nut in that state of
preparedness that it might to be in. They bad been living
in what he might term • "fool's paradise," and so far from
being able to repel, the state of the country was calculated
to invite, invasion. (Hear, hear.) The volunteer movement
was, therefore, the result of • feeling that prompted many
to distrust an alliance as a means of protection to this country,
and they determined that England should rest in security
not on the forbearance of any foreign potentate, but
on her own inherent strength alone. (Hear, heir.) He be-
lieved the volunteers were determined to go on and perm.
vere in the movement till the country should be placed iu a
thorough state of defence. (Hear, hear.) The cause which
had led to the organisation of the volunteer force and the
feeling in reference to it, bore strongly on the question
under discumion, and the same feeling which had lad the
people to volunteer ought to lead the house to support her
Majesty's government, and induce them to pursue that
averse which competent authorities had decided was nixes.
eery to give this country that feeling of security which all
all so much desired. (Haar, hear.) The objection to the
measure hail come from professional and amateur profes-
sional men—the boo. and gallant admiral the member fur
Southwark had urged the home to decide that nothing
would be so good as an efScient navy, bat the
honourable and gallant member opposite (Colonel
Dickson) had advocated a standing army. Then
the hon. and learned member for Marylebose had
come out in a new character, via, that of engineer, and had
stated to the house that these defences were unnecessary.
Mr. E. JAMD4 said he had done nothing of the sort.
He had only asked for information relative to these pro-
posed works, and the espalier, of them.
Lord ELCHO said if the hon. and learned gentleman's
motion did not imply it there was not much point in it.
He (Lord Flchii) hoped the government would penman
with the measure.
Captain JERVIS wished to rusk the hoe. and learned mem-
ber for Marylebone what was the meaning of his resolution.
The simple question for the consideration of the house was
whether or not they would keep up with the progress of
science in reference to engineering and defence. If the hon.
and leaped member wanted to know the sum total of each
work he would find it in the report, or if he wanted the sum
total of at the works he would nee it in the report, which
gave fully all the details required. (Hear.)
Mr. MON SELL hoped the government would not expend
any money upon the land fortifications, without at least
further investigation. (Hear, hem.)
Sir DE L EVANS could nut but feel that • great
mistake had been committed in not placing upon the
commission some eminent artillerbuta who had had
experience of actual warfare. (Hear, hear.) Looking over
the report, however, he must say that it seemed to him
to be the production of men of sense, and to be entitled to
the support of the house. The Secretary for War had
stated that though the government intended to carry out its
general features they would deviate from some of its de-
tails, as they had done, for instance, in substituting five
towers or works for the eight propound by the commis-
sioners to be constructed ou Furbelow° Hill. Under all the
circumstances of the case he (the hon. and gallant member)
should give his support to the ascend reading of the bill,
and he mast say that he did not see any great advantage in
the house proceeding to criticise the minute details of the
scheme. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. SMITH said the hon. and learned gentleman who
had proposed the amendment had in the pipers on the
table all the information for which ho asked. If, however,
he had framed hie resolution differently, and had proposed
to omit for the preseut the land fortifications, he had no
doubt that the hon. gentleman would have obtained the
support of the house. (Hear, hear.) For his own part he
could not imagine any grater absurdity than the works
on Purtadown Hill. In the event of • war,
works could be thrown up in a fortnight sufficient
to defend the heights against an enemy, and at • tenth of
the expense now prepared. (Hear, hear.) Let the govern-
ment spend the money fur which they had obtained the
vote of the house upon tMi sea fortifications, and let them,
at all events, take father evidence before they proceeded
with those on the Lind side of Portsmouth. Let them ask
the opitlion of men like Lord Seaton—men who had com-
manded armies ; and he was quite sere that they would
give up for the preseut the weeks Pertedown Mill. As
for the sea defences they amid not be begun too soon, Of
carried on too rapidly. (Hear.)

Mr. B. OSBORNE.thought the noble lord the founder of
the volunteers—(cheers)—he meant the term as a dbmpli-
ment--(heer, hear)—had been rather unfair to hie hon. and
learned friend the mover of the amendment. The report
of the commissioners war obviously imperfect, and the evi-
dence upon which the house was called upon to act
was excessively scanty. It was all very well
talking about the responsibility of government. What
would be done with the government if at the
end of five yearn it was found that the money had
all been wasted? Why just nothing at all. Engineering
officer* recommended the erection of the martello towers,
and the house supported the minister who proposed them.
Some millions were spent on them, and they were found to
be utterly useless. He had always drawn • distinction
between 'land fortifications and fortifications of the sea'
board, and be thought the house and government ought to
pause before they committed themselves to the expenditure
of millions of money for land fortifications.
Sir H. PETO said they had heard from no person who
was competent to give an opinioa any approve' of this
'shame of the government ; and tie bea. and pliant mem-
ber for Chatiuun, than whom no one was mete capable et
giving an opinion, said that the defenses at Portsdown Hill
might be constructed in fourteen days, which had always
been his (Sir IH. Peto's) opinion. • He thought the counts
government should have pursued in this matter should not
have been simply that of taking each • report as that of the
defence commission, but they should have bad the evident°
of all the first men in the country, and upon that evidence
they should have presented a complete scheme for the forti-
fication of all the arsenals and all the other points which
demanded attention at their hands. They should not have
asked for a sum of money fur defences which were acknow-
ledged to be incomplete.
r. WHITE said the impression out of doors was that
this matter bad been brought forward to divert the Wen-
lion of the people from the infringement of their rights in
riterllttellfwe, seal. dust tV4 14,1114islasoom =Mut of
the government in regard to that infringement (41=.3
re
Viscount PALMERSTONrepeated that the p
which the government nude was not founded
upon any distrust of any particular sovereign or
nation, but upon • deliberate conviction that this
great country ought to be in a condition to defend its im-
portant and most vulnerable points ; that unless we were in
a condition to repel attack we might be liable to be exposed
to au attack from a hundred circumstances, and that the
only real security for the contiauance of peace um the con-
viction on the part of those who might, under any circum-
etaaces, be led to attack us, that we were able to
defend ourselves. (Cheers.) Then it had been said
that the government had shown • mistrust of the
people, and that if they were to arm the people,
the people would be able to defend themselves.
Why, that was a moat strange accusation to make when,
from day to day, from week to week, and month to mouth,
thousands of her Majesty'ssubjecte were enrolling themaelves
and receiving arms from the government - when we had
already 130,000 volunteers, and were likely to have perhap
double that number in the course of a twelvemonth.
(Cheers.) Nothing could he more unjust than such an ac-
cusation. But men were not sufficient unless we had works
to defend those positions which were likely to
be mulled. The object of these fortifications was
that a small number of men. and perhaps not the
best trained, but those who were least capable of meeting
an enemy in the field, should be able, behind those works,
to defend the dockyards by which we could maintain our
naval superiority, so that the rest of our forces might be
available to meet an enemy in the field. (Hear, hear.)
His right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War had
stated, and it appeared from the report of the In-fence Com-
missioners, that if we had not these fortifications, we must
have a far greater number of men to defend in the field
those dockyards which the government proposed to de-
fend by works. So far then from this being an
expensive arrangement, it was one which, either in peace or
in war, would be an economical application of our mean. of
defence. He truant that the house would not that evening
do anything to impair the effect of that vote which they
passed • few days ago, and if the hon. and learned member
for Marylebooe premed his amendment to a division, he
trusted that the house would allow that they were fully,
deliberately, and decidedly of opinion that these works
ought to be systematically carried into effect in as short a
time as money or means would enable the government to do
it. (Cheers.)
The house then divided, when the members were :
For the second reading 143
A,sinat it
The amendment was therefore lest, and the bill was reed
• second time.