The Express.
London, England, 1866-05-04 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1866.

usual annual statement—namely, that which has beer ,1
actually these with respect to the national debt within the I
yea:. There was an exchange of 1,000,0001. of Exchequer 1
Bonds on which I need not dwell. Of Exchequer Bills
we paid off a very considerable sum. We paid 783,0001.
from the revenue ; we purchased out of surplus revenue
8;7,0001. ; and we sent to exchange 895,000 f., making
total of 2,555,010/. The stock purchssed with the surplus
revenue, including • small amount cancelled by land tax,
was 1,454,0001. ; and the amount of capita to which I for-
merly referred, paid by the state towards the redemption
of the capital of the debt, but in the form of terminable
annuities, during the year, was 1,620,0001. The total of
them, three items comes to 5,629,0001. But •
sum of money has been raised for fortifica-
tions of 450,0001., and therefore the actual reduction
of the national debt in the year 1865-6 by payments made
was 5,179,000/. (Cheers.) The next statement I wish to
make is one not of capital importance, but which ought to
be brought under notice—it relates to the unfunded debt
of the kingdom. A great change has been taking place
with regard to the unfunded debt. Part of it is in Exche-
gzeßonds, and as they are instruments which run for
four, or five years at a time, we are not seriously
affected by the extraordinary, rapid, and frequent fluctua-
tions which under the present, I think, wise administra-
tion of its affairs by the Bank of England, continually at-
tend the conditionof the money market. But it is quite ob-
vious that in a country like this, and at a period when
the current rate of interest for short terms upon com-
mercial paper, 90 days or 120 days, or perhaps six months,
is running up and down—two, three, four, five, and six
times in the course of • year—from 3 per cent. to 8 or 9
per cent, it is almost impossible to make any large por-
tion of these government securities live in the market in
connexion with such competition as that, unless we adopt
the course, which I think an unwise one, of giving a high
rate of interest upon them. (Hear, bear.) It would have
been • very wasteful prooeeding, and the alternative we
have adopted is to facilitate the gradual absorption of
this debt. (Hear, hear.) It has now reached • point
at which no inconvenience can arise out of the unfunded

mum for the abolition of this duty, and that is,
that it is abominably adulterated. (Hear, hear.) The adul-
teration of food la, I am afraid, in a very special manner
and degree. an English vice. I doubt if there be any
comitry in the world where the same amount of adultera-
tion ef articles of food takes place tie in England. (Hear,
kenr) Of course this is violently stimulated wherever the
wed duty is high as compared with the price of the
smirk .and in this case the rate of duty is about 200 per
wit- the price of pepper being about 3M., 3tel„ or 3d.,
v carious times, and the duty being 4d.. per lb. The
meant from this article is for the whole year 124,0001.,
and deducting 12.0001. for that portion of the year
already passed, the amount of loss for the year
will be 112,000/., and that must be added.to the two
item already mentioned. (Hear, bear.) I now pass to •
annimt which I am unwilling to leave wholly untouched,
net* to the character which it has assumed, bat with
witim, at the same time, neither our financial resumes
„rim extent of our information enables us to propose to
dal in that conclusive and effectual manner which I hops
wie &Iv nay be brought within our power—l mean a
poi= of the duties on locomotion. Ido not hesitate to
se Shit I think great distinction should be drawn practi-
,lliand in principle between that locomotion which is foe
wary and pleasure and that locomotion which is
for necessity. I cannot enter into the question
bee far there is • distinction between them, but the (Ppm-
mime will, I think, see that our actual system of taxation
doe distinguish between them. The committee will be
say rived to know that the revenue which we derive when
holy estimated from locomotion in all its forms is not less
maa 1,600,000/. About one-half of that, or 852,0001., is
the portion of assessed taxes which I consider to be fairly
doe to locomotion—taxes upon horses, taxes on carriages,
sad taxes on that portion of men servants who are con-
nected with them. There is also • revenue of 459,0001. de-
rivable from railways. With neither of these
do I propose in any manner to interfere. (Hear, bear.)
The first of them, I think, is • description of charge which
may very fairly be retained upon our !tatuttbook--at any

-- .
rate for the present, end the revenue derived from ways - - -----
is evidently one which, I think, the oommittee will not debt in its present condition. In 1.815 its amount was ; COL
surrender unless it were in connection with some compre- of Prussia are models
nearly 45,000,000 e, and just before the Russian war acts prudently, and reduces ber debt, and the
it was as high as 16,060,000 f. In 1857 it was raised to finances and expenditure a
hensive arrangement for securing benefits to the public,
which it is quite plain we are not at present in a oondition nearly 28,000,000/. and in 1859 it had been reduced again of administration. The debt of Prussia now stands
to entertain- (Hear, hear.) The committee is aware that to 18,000,000/., but that by funding ; and one of the at 43,000,000 L, and the debt of Holland at 85,000,000 e
&royal commission, composed of very able and distinguished objects of this reduction of the debt by a gradual process . The debt of Russia is 279,000,000/., the debt of Austria is
; 316,000,0001., the debt of France, as far as I can estimate
mss.
was appointed more than twelve months ago to ex- has been to get rid of the necessity of that funding, be-
amine into the general condition of our railway system, cause the funding of Exchequer Bills is a very expensive , it, is 400,000,000 L, the largest of the debts • but M the
and t • report how far it may be possible by such means as operation, inasmuch as it is generally, or almost always, I same time itis a country with respect to the future security
si ,y be applied to promote the improvement of our railway Perform ed at unfavourable periods, hen, in order to ' and strength of which perhaps we need feel less anxiety on
srtem rela y
tivel to the generel accommodation of the get rid of 1001. of capital debt, we are . commonly obliged account of the immense resources, energy, and wonderful
The ' thriftiness of its people, than for any other country in
public traffic. (Hear, hesr.) But it is plain that we must to give 110/. or 115/. of stock, and sometimes more.
adjourn the examination of this subject till the commission debt, which was 18,277,000 in 1859 has now been reduced ' Europe. The debt of Italy i5f152,000,1t000/14.
has concluded hits labours. which lam given to understand, to 8,267,000, consisting of about two-thirds in bills and sUln—thear, hear)—the debt o Spain , •,
and which I hope will be in the course of the present year. one-third in bonds—the amount of Exchequer
_Bthills being ; debt of Portugal is 33,000,0013/., and the debt of Turkey,
5104,70iCTintothues
which I believe is entirely a modern institution, the bulk
(Hear. hear.) There are two other branches of this por- 5,967,000/. and bonds, 2,300,0001. ',low, with
respect
tion of the revenue, or similar to it, to which I must call to this, as I think, most grave and serious subject_ of the 'of it having been incurred since the Crimean war, is
attention. I mean that portion as regards post horses national debt, I hope the committee will not think that I 5_1,000,000/..These debts. , orthe great bulk of them observe,
and not to meet the neces-
end carriages, which include all hackney
_vehicles, tak. ean undue liberty in calling their earnest attention to have arisen in a time of
eel which produce a revenue of 266,000 C And it. It may seem to us that a standing subject of
. that ' sities of a struggle for lir.scei.he gross amount of all these
of this there is a large sum derived from that kind is one
.with which it may be difficult debts reaches 1,500,000,000/. (Hear, hear.) I will not
Rio, which ia of the most importance of all in con- to say why it shouldrtgarti
be introducedt4 to the notice of theb trouble the committee with the details of their increase,
section with the general public, for it affects the house at one moment rather than another. But undou t- I.bust, according to the best computation I can make—and I
interests, comfort, and necessities of the labouring and edly, lam convinced, after a long experience of the email- , behove it is not far from the truth, taking six of these
middle classes. This sum ie 142,0001., derived from riel department, that the time has come when it is fitting . countries—l will not take Holland, because it is reducing
thatparliament should bestow agreater degree of atten- its debt, nor Prussia. which is not habitually or ordinarily
rehlic conceYunccu of all descriptions, including carriages ' err increasing its debt ; Spain also, I believe, is in a state of
which ply periodically, whether they be stage coaches Mon an we have heretofore bestowed upon the question ,
;_._ . _
or whether they be wagons which travel at the rate of of the state and movement of the national debt. (Hear, ! equilibrium (laughter)—taking six of the nine countries
four miles an hour in the country, or whether they be hear.) I entirely concur with my bon. friend the member , I have named, the conjoint increase of their debts in what
has been at the
omnibuses, which form so conspicuous a feature in the for Westminster—whom I grieve not to see in his '
annual
_y call a time of
. nual rate of 61,000,0001., and that is a grow-
streets of London and other large towns, and which are be- glace, especially as I know that severe indisposition
for this lu'abit, like other bad
coming from year to year almost indispensably necessary keeps. him away—l entirely acres with him in the I lilts, watt,_
to the comfort of the labouring and middle classes of the doctrine which he laid down in this house, that the
.has a tendency. to spread: and if European
.. countries
people. I make these two proposals, and first, as Metes
itemst duty.of parliament twenty-five years ago was to direct sPenil in peace the resources of war, it is actually like
to the tax upon omnibuses and all public stage carriages, attention to the thoroughl unsound and rotten state ; having a good harvest, and the country consuming the
I may mention that, besides the bearing of this proposal ;of its financial system Its injuriousi effects upon the na- ; whole of that harvest and the half of another harvest be-
in the restrictiou. of induit in the reduction or re-1
upon the comfort and advantages of the lebouring classes tion, . ryait sides. (Hear, hear.) The effect would be that if peace
were preserved in Europe to the end of this century the
in great towns, it is important in another poi
of view, 1 tardation of the growth of wealth, were such that
vie, the severity of this duty, and its injunom effect in ; would have been a great mistake if at that period, in-
• debt of those countries would then be increased to four
restricting rural accommodation, and particularly in con. ' Mead of entering upon a new course of commercial legible- thousand millions. These are really portentous aim:re-
fection with railway stations. '(Hear, hear.) But the tion, the spare. resources of the country, such as they were, .
I stances. It is not merely the money engagement—that is
present tax is estimated to amount to no less had been particularly applied to the reduction of debt. comparatively a small matter, though it ma a great mischief
7
than from 9 to 11 per cent., not upon profits, but But we have now got through most of that work. There are that that moue should be drawn away from the useful and
upon the gross receipts of the London. General Om- taxes still remaining that it is desirable to abolish or Profitable pursuite of industry and spent upon unproductive
mbus Company, and of other companies of a like reduce--(hesx, hear)—of that lam perfectly conscious ; but ; works, and often upon what is much wore—but but it is the
description. Now, when one considers the relation which ; at the same time we have advanced so far in the prosecu. enormous political and social difficulties which are gra-
gross receipts bear to net, and how very large a portion of tion and towartbt the accomplishment of that most benefi. dually stored up by this most improsident course. There is
, mal work of reforming our taxation, that I think with my nothing I know of so insidious as the commencement
girds receipts is swallowed up in the payment of expenses,
it must be admitted, I think, that by taking sash a duty hon. friend the member for Westminster the time has now of a financial difficulty. It approaches us, at firee, with
arrived when we ought to consider seriously the state and smiles and caresses. It appears to be open to no objection
&R this we impose • very heavy burden upon this descrip- ;
non of trade. (Hear, hear.) The manner, as the con- • condition of our obligations. (Hear, hear.) And in- whatever. It is like what the poet describes to fame—
besides the igieech of my hon. friend there I Parrs mete prima : mox sere attollleln aurae.
sinew will perceive, in which the duty affects the labour- deed.
Maya been other indications which I have noticed 1 lugrediterque solo et caput inter imams coedit.
ing classes is very much as follows. In all great centres
of population—l will not at present refer to railway sta. . with satisfaction, and which show that I am not (Cheers.) It is, again, like what the great Greek tre-
at any rate speaking lightly or gratuitously. when I gedian relates of the cub of the lioness. The cub is in-
thetions, because every gentleman who reside In
submit to thecommittee that that time has arrived. The cautiously taken home by the hunter, and reared with his
country will be familiar with them from his
own experience—but the manner in which it acts in condition of the public credit as measured by the price of dogs. It plays among his children, and while a cub it
great towns is this : there is continually going on a daily the funds is a matter which I think might well attract the is mild and fawns upon everybody, but when it grows in
process unobserved, by which the value of land is rising in attention of the house. It is not that the public credit is strength it suddenly shows itself in terror, and deluges
limited areas about the centres of great towns in a proper• weaker than it was before—on the contrary, I think it the house with gore. (Cheers.) That is the way a finest-
Lion hardly credible, and which experience and statistics never was stronger ; but the rising rate of profit on cial difficulty begins. It begins with a most insinuating
would astonish anybody who never attends to the subject. money must necessarily
raise the rate of interest as re- address, it grows little by little, and we put off the day
(Hear, hear.) But the effect is $ continual transfer o the Presented by the price of the funds. At the same time I of reckoning, which must come at last. (Hear,
f
think oul be wise and politic on the part of hear.) Well, sir, so much for other countries. Now, let
use of premises from residence to purposes of business, and
disappear are l
entparliam with a view to poesible er.•gen- us look at our own. lam sorry I have detained the corn-
s great number of the different classes who
cies, to consider the present state of the pub- mittee for nearly two hours, but I will still ask them to
those who are wealthy, and disappear for their pleasure,
but there is a considerable proportion of the lie credit as indicated by the mate of the funds, bear with me while I state what I take to be the real truth
labouring classes who cannot afford to pay the and to consider the state in which we should stand if we of the case with regard to our own position. I address
increased rents, and who go into the neighbourhood were obliged to go into the market to borrow. There are my request to the whole house, and particularly to
or to a greater distance from its centre, where their labour
other reasons, I think, for saying this is the proper time gentleman opposite, and those who say, and say truly,
be performed, and to whom it is of the teat im. for entertaining the question. Next year-1867—ne are . that they are deeply interested in the land and fixed pro-
mustce that they should have cheap • maces ; and to receive a considerable relief by the cessation of ; perty of tie country, because I apprehend if there is any
therefore locomotion, considered as a tax upon the labour- terminable annuities to the extent of nearly 600,0001. . special interest involved in the subject lam about to open
ing portion of the community, is, in the ',ere' strictest (hear, hear)—nor can I fail to mention that the most ,it is the interest of land and fixed property. I will en-
and widest sense, a tax upon the raw material of in- powerful organs of public opinion in the kingdom, with ; deavour to set forth clearly exactly what I mean. In the
dastry. Nothing more corresponds with the raw material
the best intentions and with an enlightened zeal for the first edace let it be recollected that we are living in a corn-
of industry than the sinews and muscles of labour- public good, have been favourably drawing the attention inertial era. I am not now speaking of it.
men, and if he has to expend them in ti-a- .
in;
of the public to the subject, in the hope thatthe govern- , social aspect, but am confining myself to its material as
veling to and from his work he deducts what went would submit to parliament any proposal pect, of which it is almost impossible adequately to ap-
ought to be used in his avocation. (Hear, hear.) which it is in their power to make. The predate the magnitude and prospects. Wby, from five
We propose to leave the license duties upon stage carriages course and movement of our national debt can years to five years the rate of increase is continually slat-
es they are at present. We are not going to offer a thorough, easily be set forth in a most intelligible form mg, and always shifting upwards. The liberation of in-
searching, and effectual solution of the whole of this yore to to the community. I may observe, the national debt ; dustry, the progress of invention, the steady investigation
tion,but we propose to offer what I think will be a very great consists of three heads, which for the present purpose It is ;of science, the improvement of' social habits—all these
relief. The bunlensome part of the duty is at present a not necessary to distinguish from one another. These three ; things are combining together, and the joint result is, 1
tax of a penny per mile for every mile traversed. We pro-
heads are—first, the funded or permanent debt, including ; think, bringing us to this conclusion—that in the days of
pose to reduce that from a penny to one farthing per mile.
the Bank of England debt, represented by a capital sum ; I our ellillhood, when we thought the commerce of England
(Several members : " All, &1V) There are some difficul- secondly, the unfunded debt, of which I have already j was a wonderful thing, and the commerceof the worldwon-
ties about that—there are considerable difficulties about it. spoken ; thirdly, the outstanding capital value involved , derful, and when we had an idea that it was at about its
Ido not woneer at all at the suggestion which has been in any of the terminable annuities which may still exist. ; largest development, amounting almost to a transformation,
made, but the house will be pleased to recollect that Placing these three items of debt together, it will give the • it ware in point of fact, nothing but an infant in the cradle.
though I have described the strongest reasons for totals of the national debt as they have tood at periods ;It was an infant Hercules. Ever since it has been bursting
modifying this duty, yet it cannot be separated which I have selected. The total of the national debt, ; its bonds, but great as is the extension it has now reached,
altogether from the other portion of the duty we which some people supposed to be 800.000,000/., I though we are not prophets here and must refrain from
hare on locomotion. It cannot be separated alto- ;at the close of the great war turned 900,000,0001. Of ; dogmas, it is our duty to estimate the probabilities, as well
gether from the duty upon hackney conveyances, course Ido not include in that total any allowance for the ,as we can, and guided by the balance of probabilities, we
which we are not able coneistently with the convenience of sinking fund. I speak of the real obligations of the coun- , must look, during the next 20, 30, or 40 years—l will not
the government to relieve, and It cannot be separated al- try. In 1830 the amount had been brought down to
. put any limit to the time—for s further development and
together from this consideration—that in a very great 842.000,0001. A good deal had been done in that interval : extension of the commerce of this country. The commerce
camber of cases these (minibuses are in direct compe. for the reduction of the debt, but little had been done for of this country is now, I apprehend. in the aggregate, at
t:tion with the short local traffic of railways in the neigh. the liberation of the industry of the country. A beginning least threefold in every branch what it was 25 years
hourhood of great towns, on which railways we levy with- ; was made, but it was only a beginning. In 1840 the debt , ago, while the population has only been increasing
out any sort of compensation, I believe, a tax of 5 per
had fallen to 837 ,000,0001. being only 4,500,0001. less than 20 per cent. While the population has increased one
cent upon the gross receipts.(Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly it was in 1630. But it must be recollected that during that , fourth, our commerce has multiplied three times, and this
this tax will be much lighter upon these carriages than it inteival a loan of 20,000,0001. was contracted for the enum- is still going on. Now our great agents of production are
will he upon the railways with which they compete. Ac- cipation of the negroes in the West Indies. The lowest three in number. First of all there is landand fixed capital ;
cording to the figures I have stated, the total receipt Feint which the debt attained was on the sth January, ; secondly, there is moveable and transferrable property ; and
with the full duty would be 130,0001. for the year. The 1854, when it was 800,515,000/. Then came the Crimean thirdly, there is labour. Let us consider these three
be
duty can only reduced from the 2nd July, for that is the war, when parliament resolved to meet the expenses agents of production. There is a race between nations in
time the arrangements are made for the quarter, and that of that war in a great degree by taxes immediately int- industry and enterprise. There can he no doubt at this
the licenses are issued, and the act of parliament necessary posed on the people. Consequently, the increase of the moment what nation is foremost in the race. It is the
to effect that reduction—for this is not a reduction made debt was much less rapid than it otherwise would have . United Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom are
by a resolution of the house—probably would not pass until been, and much less rapid than it would undoubtedly be if ;by far the foremost in the nice. Now, our external corn-
late in the present month or the beginning of June, and, unhappilythe country should everbeinvolvedin a long war. ' merce is, I apprehend, as great as that of the
consequently, though the total loss by this reduction would (Hear, hear.) On the 31st March, 1857, the debt was two greatest countries that come next to England,
be 90,0001., the loss for the year 1866-67, after allowing 871,722.0001 e on the Met March, 1859, it was 823,934,000/.; . that is to say, the commerce of the United Kingdom, with
for sonic recovery in the amount of traffic, would be 61,00 U/. and on the 31st March, 1866, it was 798,909,000. (Hear, • thirty millions of people, is as great as the commerce of
In connexion with the post-horse duties, lam hear.) That is, nominally, a point lower than it ever • France and America, with their seventy millions of people.
proceeding upon the principle that the post-horse before stood at ; but we have cancelled certain stocks, ' (Hear, hear.) That is an extraordinary fact. We have
duties include hackney carriage duties. The hackney car- which, though not apparently, really belonged to the pub- got the start in the race. What has given it to us! It
nage duties in London are of a peculiar description, and lie. In fact, we may say with substantial accuracy we have may be said we have got the advantage of our insular
with these Ido not propose to interfere. They involve now just reached the point in which we have effaced position—that, no doubt, is a great advantage. The cha-
questions of importance as between the metropolis and the results of the Crimean war, and that we are ROW meter of our people is also a great advantage ; but our
the count because the receipt from that tax which is of a in the same position we stood in at the commencement of insular position and the character of our people were ad-
peculiar character is a receipt which is considered as some 1854. There are several sums not very material in them- • vantages we possessed centuries ago, and yet England,
compensation made by the metropolis for part of the great selves in which we are indebted—namely, to savings banks centuries ago, did not lead the trade and industry of the
rovernment outlay in matters connected with its comfort a sum of about 3,000,0001.; but, on the other hand,there are I world. What is the cause of our pre-erninence! It
and advantage. But the post-horse duties are duties on loans by the government for improvement of land, drain- ,Is
not our accumulated capital, for that forms part
post horses all over the country, and upon hackney car- age, and other purposes, amounting to about 10,000,000/. ;of that pre-eminence. There can be no doubt at all
rimes elsewhere than in London, and are regulated upon a 799,000,000/. is, therefore, the preseat amount of the ' that the cause is to be found in our possession of internal
Beale varying according to the number of horses and car- debt. Observe the rate at which these operations have treasures, especially coal—(hear, hean—and not merely
sieges. and that scale is so framed as to bear hardly upon Pe:weeded- UP to 18.54 there were nearly final, years of in the possession of coal, but in the possession of vast
the small owner as compared with the larger owner. the most profound peace ever known. Therefore, it was • centres of coal under such circumstances that we can
(Hear, hear.) A man having one horse or one carriage the very period in which it was most desirable to deal ; raise it to the ground at a lower price than any other
pays a license duty of 71. 10s. ; a man with two horses or efficiently with this debt, if we wished to place ourselves country in the world. (Hear, hear.) It is not the quan-
two carriages pays not quite double that ; and the other in a position to lam That The rate of de- • tity of coal, but the price of it, that is the essential point.
steps in the scale go in the same way. A man with crease per annum during period was 2,609,000/e i The possession of coal under these circumstances has
four horses or three carriages pays 20/ and a man
~ undoubtedly a feeble sum considering the enormous ' given us our start, and also caused that enormously rapid
with eight horses orsix carriages - progress of the country in many other respects, in which
the 30/. with the 71. 10s. the house will see the great crease was nearly 10,000,000/. a year. From 1857 to 1866 we might have expected it to make less rapid program than
inequality of the tax. The change I propose to make is the rate of decrease has been somewhat better than it was most other countries ; for, after all, the other great
to reduce the duty for one horse or carriage to 51., with in previous periods, namely, 3,646,0001. But I wish to treasure of nations, viz., unoccupied and undeveloped land,
some intermediate steps, up to a 30!. charge. The effect eau the attention of the committee to what we must ex- is a treasure we possess in a much smaller degree—l speak
: of that will be, without troubling the committee with Peet—that whereas two or three millions a year Tepee- lof course of the three leingdoins—than almost any other
rented, our operations in times of peace since 1815, if you I
tumecessary details, to place the small man who drives his European country. It is then coal and what depends on
own cab or fly upon a fair footing, as far as the nature of become involved in a great and prolonged war you must , coal that has given us this pre-eminence in the commerce
a the duty will admit, with the larger capitalist with whom eeyeet to see thedebt grow at about ten times twat rate. ; and industry of the world. Well, sir, it has often been
a he competes. (Hear, hear.) The loss from that source, (Hear, hear.) The next question is whether that is a ! the subject of very interesting discussions whether we may
. after making a small allowance for increase, will be in satisfactory state of things. But I cannot proceed further ; look on our stores of coal asbeing practically inexhaustible,
s all 20,000/.. but in the present it will be on the subject at present without asking the committee to . and in the condition in which our commerce was 20 or 30
s only 16,000/. Gentlemen will see that we have observe what is taking place in other countries. The ; years ago, it would have been perfectly reasonable to have
co Dow deposed of an amount of 562,000/- out of chapter of national debt is assuming a painful and, I think, ; answered that question in the affirmative, and held that
t IAO,OOM. The subject to which I shall now pass is a baneful prominence as a social and political fact of , they were inexhaustible. But circumstances have greatly
r of an entirely different description from those on which I modern experience. (Hear, hear.) Ido not know whether ; changed. The rate of increase in our consumption and
the horse is aware to what an extent this mischievous and
n hare thus far treated, having this only in common with production of coal liaa become such that minds, the greatest
11 them that it would dispose of a large portion of the re- injurious process is going on. I shall refer to one instance ; amongst our scientific authorities, have turned their atten-
d !minder of the surplus, and that it is undoubtedly a very which I can contemplate without the least anxiety—the . tion to the question. Now, suppoeing this increase to con-
debt of the United States. That debt is in itself some- '
s sport rat financial arrangement. Before, however, I quit ; tinue and I venture to give an opinion that it is robable it
it the subject of taxes I had, perhaps, better state that I
shall thing wonderful as the creation of three or four years. I will continue, what will be the influence ou ourselves?
gyring (Hear, hear.) It amounts to G 00,000.01301., and the rate ; But for the present let me ask you to consider this. An-
r- el submit resolutions for the purpose of •
of its growth last year exceeded 200,000,000/. That is a I miming that we cannot for many generations continue to
1 elect to all changes I have thus far me giving
and
al wonderful debt, and its charge is enormous'. It is not
le me with them resolutions renewing the income , produce coal at a price cheaper than other countries, what
as tai at 4(1. for the year, and likewise for the con- possible in the present state of financial arrangements I will happen ?It is not enough to eay that the expense of
ir tinaince of the tea duties. Those resolutions in that country to ascertain the charge with precision, ; deep ruining and ventilation and keeping down the Min-
ter will be, as usual, comprehended together in one but I believe lam not far wrong in saying that it us con- ; peruture will be econoneeed by new inventions and con-
t. 'areeire. But the proposal which I have now to siderable heavier than our own, although the capital is 1 tnvances. These new inventions and contrivances there
(Hear' hear.) I estimate it at about 32,000 nom
• Make, if it should receive the sanction of the house, le".?•• may be, but they will not give us pre-eminence. Every-
but as the cost of ruing the revenue in America is body else who has coal will be just as well isle to make
id will, I think, more conveniently and naturally form the
than here, I do not think the amount of the
id "abject of a separate measure which I pro to submit as greater use of them an we are. In the same way it fno use to
cherge will be less--not including the Southern debt—
be eoiss as possible. The question to which lam about tosay a substitute will be found for coal. No doubt there
than 35,000,000/. per annum. Looking at these fieures
fiS 011 the attention of the committee is connected with an are scientific men' of high authority some of whom
a man would apt to be struck with something like de-
b- item which which I omitted, contrary to my wont, from the re- think, although there is a difference of opinion, it may
ss ..r.'ve portion of my statement. It relates to the spair. But loolang st the vigour and energy of the be possible to discover a substitute of that nature ;
which has to bear the burden, I must coulees but if that substitute is found it will not be
con iion. the prospects, and the movement of our national country I
IP debt (Hear,hear.) I think the future, as far as finance is concerned, will not peculiar to England. And, therefore, in
1001 e event I
K' • I will first give to the committee
that which would have appertained in any ease to the constitute any difficult) to the American people. (Hear, have supposed of our being unable 50 or years hence,

hear.) lam confident that if they show with respect to or whatever the time may be, to continue to raise un- , now to be created, so much of those dividends as are not
finance any portion of that extraordinary resolution which bounded quantities of coal at the price at which we now required in order to meet the demands of the casings
both sides manifested during the war, and if they show raise it, this appears to me demonstratively clear—our banks will be reinvested from year to year. Of course the
that equally remarkable resolution on the return o peace relative position to other nations must be lost, because if extent of that operation, and the amount of burden to be
which they did during their monstrous and gigantic war, it he a question of coal against coal there is no doubt at all created by it, will differ very much accosting to the
in cutting down their establishments to within moderate how the matter stands. There is another country not assumption which we make as to the demands
bounds, I will not say, to use a modern phrase, that the only as rich as ourselves in coal, and in every other of the savings banks ; but, for argument sake,
debt will be a fleabite, but that in a moderate time element of material prosperity, but which is enormously I assume that the demand from savings banks will be one
it will be brought within very small limit*, and that even richer in coal. The coal surface of the United half, and that consequently there will be 500,000!. to be
those now living may see it effaced. (Hear, hear.) I States of America is I believe 37 times treater invested. On the supposition that you adopt the two
believe that America is at this moment paying every one than our own. (Hear, hear.) It is true that of operations—first, the conversion of the 24,000,0001„. and,
of her war taxes, and the amount of revenue of the 1 nited , that coal surface a considerable proportion is secondly, the reinvestment of thespare dividends.and on the
States is, I apprehend, not less than 90,000,000/. ; the anthracite—nobody knows bow much is anthracite— assumption that there will be one half of the extra divi-
largest sum ever raised in any country for the purposes of ' and anthracite coal has not yet been found well adapted dends tospare,tleresult will bethia that the annual charge
a central government. (Hear, hear.) Of this sum only for steam or for smelting purposes, although for domestic beginning at 419.000!. will gradually increase until it
about 10,000,0007. is borne impatiently by the people. The purposes it is capable of adaptation. Supposing this to be reaches in the year 1685 1,444,000!., and the amount of
finance minister, Mr. M'Culloch, strongly urges the policy so, supposing that the constantly accruing demand on our public debt cancelled by that time will be 49,500,000 i.,
of reducing the debt, and I think we ought, from this coal fields has the effect of carrying away this re-eminence or in round numbers 50,000,000/. (Cheers.) That will be
side of the water, to send him our hearty good wishes 'in cheap production from ourselvesto across the Atlantic, I the general result. That is there will be a fresh annual
for his success, both on account of friendly feeling and ! ask you, and especially hon. gentlemen opposite, what will burden rising from 419,000/. to 1,444,000/., which will in
because it is to be hoped that the example of America I happen ? There will be a decline—a decline of rents, a the course of about eighteen years and a half cancel forty-
will re-act beneficially here. (Hear, hear.) But have ' decline of probts, and a decline of wages. There will be nine millions and a half of stock. I think that, by taking
hon. gentlemen paid attention to the stealthy manner in precisely the reverse of that process which we have all been this course, we shall be acting wisely and prudently
which borrowing is becoming the standing vice of almost , seeing, and many of us have felt, for the last twenty years in regard to the national debt. I am Jaw from
every government in Europe? (Hear, hear.) I do not !re
—the increase of rents, the increase of profits, and the saying that this is the only measure that ought
speak with reference to the state in which the incase of wages. When rents, profits,and wages decline to be adopted, but I think it is quite as large
continent is at this moment, because we yet hope : what will the owners of them—what will those who re- as we should be justified in adopting in the
that, in spite of what has occurred, Europe may ceive the wages do? Those who receive the wages finding actual state of circumstances. We shall be acting
not be deprived of the inestimable blessings of peace. wages lower here and higher across the Atlantic will wisely and prudently in regard to the national debt, we
I speak strictly with reference to a state of peace, and I migrate. (Hear, hear.) The owners of moveable pro- shall completely acquit ourselves of our obligations to the
ask the house and the committee to consider how enor- perty. finding a wider and more profitable field for its ap- , trustees of savings banks, we shall make a provision for
mously important is becoming, fromyesr to year, the habit plication than they will have here, will send their capital their demands, which will prevent any risk of our having
and practice of the governments of Europe with regard to abroad. What will the owners of rentsdo! It appears to !to go into the market as sellers of the funds, which would
the contraction of debt. Now, here are the national debts me that they cannot migrate—they may migrate per- be most undesirable • and we shall be certain from year to
of nine countries of Europe. With the exception of Hol- . sonally, but that upon which they depend cannot migrate, year to cancel a certain amount of stock independent of
land, there is not one of those debts which has not been ! and the upshot will be this—that in a period of declining that which we cancel from the surplus of the revenue.
virtually contracted within the last half century, and by; wealth, rents, and profits, the charge of the national debt, (" Hear," and cheers.) Now I have only to put together
far the greater part of them has been contracted within which is now borne in very large and full proportion', in a few words the sum of all the operations which I have
the last twenty years, and in a time of peace. If any pot, by profits and by wages along with rents, .so wearisomely detailed. (Cheers.) The amount of the
Lion arises from a war expenditure, it is merely incidental. will remain a permanent mortgage upon the I surplus is 1,350,0001. The retniasions as they stand are. On
And with regard to Holland and Prussia—and Prussia in land, houses, and works of the country. (Hear, wood, 307,0001. ; wine, 58,000/. ; pepper, 119,000/. ; stage
this respect is free from all suspicion—the debts of those hear.) Sir, I wish I could convey to the committee my own carriages, 85,000/. ; making a total of remissions of
-ountries are in by far the best position. Holland , sense of the importance of these considerations. There is 562,000/. Then for the conversion of the debt a futile'.
- - • ' .
that - ild -to make charge of 502,000/. in the - - the two sums
_ _

resent yearlaa,nag...__ a
certainly nothiiig in the figures tit, would appear a
them at any. rate unworthy of being taken into eonsiden- together makingn"
170647000 f surplus
tion. This is a matter which engages habitually the atten- for the present year of 2:96,00W. In the following
tion of skilful and scientific men, under the direct authority year there will be a further charge, the result
of the government. Mr. Hulme, whose estimate I believe of the conversion of 144,000/., and in the next year that
is the best that has yet been made, has estimated the avail- will be extended to nearly a quarter of a million. That is
able coal in the United Kingdom, within 4,000 feet of the an amount of burden about which I feel no scruple of con-
surface—and even at 4,000 feet it could not be raised at the science, because there has been noyesr in which the natural
price at which it is now raised—at te3,000,000,000 , growth of the revenue has not amounted to a very much
of tons. Now the consumption of coal in I larger sum. I propose to take the resolutione relating to change
1854 was 64,000,000 of tons, and the present con- of duties if, as I rather sanguinely anticipate, there should
sumptiou is taken at 86,000,000 tons. But the not be any serious objection to them, on Monday. I
important point is this every year, on an average, the I would propose also, on the assumption that they will not
consumption of coal is 3.7 greater per cent. than it was lead to much discussion, to tskethe preliminary resolution
the year before ; but the process is this: not taking it at 1 with regard to debt conversion on Monday. That resolu-
-3.7, but taking it at 3},—that is, abating something of its tion sin general terms, and I think gentlemen can conduct
annual rate of increase, although I think we have greater ' the discussion best when the bill is in their hands. At the
reason to expect the increase of the increment than the same time if it is desired to have a discussion I would, of
decrease of it,—yet taking this annual increment at 3e, course, not propose togo on with it then. And now, air,
this would give in 100 years an annual consumption of I must apologise to the house for the length of this state-
-2,600,000,000 tons ; but the consumption in the next ment. (Cheers.) I hope I have not been understood to
104 years that is by the year 1970 would reach prophecy, or to do anything more than to make such a
103,000,000,000 of tons ; that is to say, a greater amount sketch of the future, and point out those things which
than all the coal now known to be available in appear to demand the attention of reasonable and prudent
Great Britain within 4,000 feet of the surface. That may men. As regards them I would say no more than this,
or may not be. I believe that long before you that the difficulties I have named may produce grievous
would have consumed that quantity of coal, effects, but by dealing with them at once we may restrain
you would have begun to find in operation them within certain limits. Undoubtedly it did seem well
the causes to which I have referred, which would to the government, although the proper finance business of
follow with infallible certainty upon an increased price. the year is to make the arrangements for the gear, yet we
These particulars are drawn from a very useful and acces- thought we should cast one glance forward into the future,
sible work which has lately been published by a careful and endeavour in some degree to meet those demands row,
statistician, Mr. Jevons, which was quoted the other so that when we cease to ply our arduous task of conduct-
night by the hon. member for Westminster. But Mr. ing public affairs—l do not mean the government specially,
Jevons, who, I know, has been very careful in his facts and but the body of the house generally—when most
estimates, does not stand alone in his opinion. Many of us have passed away from active life, those who'
gentlemen will recollect the opinions given in come after us may have reason to say that while making I
this house two years ago. Sir John Herschel I know provision for our own wants we have also taken some con- I
agrees in the main with Mr. Jevons. Dr. Percy, cern for them, so that they will have no reason to condemn
I understand, leans in the same direction, and our conduct. The right hon. gentleman resumed his
I have myself had the opportunity of commu- seat amid loud cheers.
nicating with my distinguished friend. Sir Roder;ck In reply to Sir J. PAKINGToN.
Murchison, and lam able to say that he for many years The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said on I
has believed this to be a matter of the gravest nature, well Monday he proposed to go forward with these resolutions
deserving our attention. Now, sir, it is vain to think of unless there was a desire for an extended discussion, in
restricting the consumption of coal—it is worse than vain which case he would postpone them. Of course it was un- I
to think of taxing coal—and it is also worse than vain to derstood that the first business on that day is the Bettie- I
think of stopping the export of coal. (An expression of tribution of Seats Bill and the other bills with regard
dissent.) I only give my own opinion ;if you do not think so to Scotland mid Ireland. He moved that the chairman re. I
let it be reserved for separate discussion. Ido not think port progress.
the proof would be difficult ; but it would only cause me Mr. IS . LESLIE asked the right hon. gentleman what I
to trespass more upon your time, which I have already heelroposed to do on
the subject of dog tax.
done at an unreasonable length. There is one conclusion e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not
which seems to me pretty obvions. If it be true that we propose to apply to thatpurpose any appreciable portion of
cannot probably continue to supply coal at the present low the surplus. I say appreciable because I think the reform I
I prices in an unlimited quantity for an unlimited time, of the dog tax which is proposed need not involve any
I mean for even as much, perhaps, as two or three gene- material lose to the revenue. My hon. friend the &sere-
' rations—if it be true that it is our duty to make preps- tary to the Treasury has kindly taken the matter in hand.
1 ration for the time that is coming, the way to make pre- and he will probably be able before long to lay before the
paration for it is to use, not excessively extravagant, u; house a measure calculated to meet the very reasonable
, moderate and reasonable efforts to rid ourselves of our wishes that are entertained on the subject. (Cheers.)
incumbrances, and let those who come after us, if they are Mr. WARNER was surprised that the right lion. gentle-
' to encounter difficulties of which we have no practical man, with a surplus of 200,0001., should not have taken off
! knowledge, not receive from us a legacy of difficulties the farthing mileage duty, which he could only regard as a
'which it is in our power to alleviate. We have not done protective duty in favour of the railways.
enough—we ought to do something more; and as, in former Mr. WATKIN felt sure the railway companies would not
times, the practice was to buy in seasons of abundance for regard the abolition of that mileage as any great grievance.
seasons of dittress, so now, while we are working this He was disappointed that the right hon. gentleman in die
enormously profitable mine of national wealth, we ought course of hie admirable budget should not have announced
to use some portion of the proceeds for the purpose of that after careful consideration of the matter, the govern-
diminishing the burden of our great mortgage. (Cheers.) went bad seen their way to reduce by half a million or a
I will now tell the house how we propose to set about this. million the cost of collecting the revenue, which at
There are two modes, and so far as I know there are prat- present amounted to no leas than 74 per cent.
tically almostonlytwo,by whichit is in our powertooperate It seemed to him that the reduction of the customs
permanently on the great mass of our debt. The one is the duties ought to have been followed by is corresponding
application of surpluses from year to year. Those sur- reduction in the Custom-house establishment. He hoped
pluses, through the favour of Providence, have of late been that something would be done to diminish the present'
more liberal than perhaps was usual, but they cannot be vexatious delays occasioned by examining the baggage of
depended upon in times of difficuly, and we must not look travellers between this country and the continent. It
to them alone. The other mode of operating upon the seemed to him that what was saved by preventing ladies
debt—one which is constantly recommended by those who from smuggling tea, tobacco, or spirits, could not possibly
desire to see it reduced—is the conversion of perpetual be anything like the cost of maintaining the present
into terminable annuities. (Hear, hear.) I have fre- barbarous system.
quently received, sometimes from competent and skilled Mr. N. GRENVILLE observed that the Chancellor of j
persons, recommendations to introduce large schemes of the Exchequer had some time ago reduced the cost of
this kind. But the difficulty is this—there are shooting licenses, under the impression that the increase
no purchasers of terminable annuities in the open market, he should thereby name in their number would prevent
and if you go into the City to sell them you must be pre- any loss to the public. He should be glad to know if the
pared to accept very low prices—that is to say, to borrow right hon. gentleman was satisfied with the result of the
money at greatly increased rates of interest. Consequently, operation.
j from the large waste involved in such an operation no Mr. WILD complained of the mileage duty on vehicles
minister or government has ever recommended it. But which, in districts where there were few railways, was
we have a resource, which we findweposseas in the medium found by the working classes to be a great grievance.
of the funds which we hold on deposit. Those funds it is Mr. HUBBARD wished to ask the Chancellor of the
I in our
_power to manipulate precisely as we please. We Exchequer whether, looking forward to the great financial
I hold 20,000,000/. from different bodies, and it is possible operations he had explained, he had any idea that the
these delioalts will be increased in future years. Of those amount of the averaged bankdeposits might be diminished.
145,000,000!., 10,000,0001. have already been converted in Such, however, might be the fact if it was true
this manner. But there is 24,000,000/. which stands in what that trustees were withdrawing their deposits, as
'is called the state deposit account due to the trustees of he had understood the right hon. gentleman to say.
savings banks. What the trustees of savings banks have Again, the right hon. gentleman had stated that terminable
to expect is the payment of every farthing of what we annuities were unsaleable ; but the right hon. gentleman
have received front them, with the interest upon it. They did not state what was the reason, and the only reason,
have nothing whatever to do with the 24,000,0007. ; that why that was the came ; namely, that the whole of the
is a mere question of the method of investing it with capital expended on a terminable annuity was liable to
which we are alone concerned. If we lost every farthing of income-tax—was liable, in fact, to confiscation. As the I
it, we should still be bound to pay it to them, and if ne right bon. gentleman was virtually proposing that the
made a profitable investment of it, it would be entirely our income-tax should be made a permanent one, at least for a I
affair. just as much as if we were bankers. In point of fact considerable number of years, he hoped that the right bon.
the state of things is thin, that the assets of the national gentleman would be disposed to consider the question of
debt commissioners,who hold those millions for the public, its incidence and collection. The present system imposed
are not equal in value to their obligations to the savings a great deal of unnecessary inconvenlenc,e upon the public,
banks trustees, falling short by about 3,000,0007. One of and it was altogether of a most rough, clumsy, and inartin-
the recommendations I have to make is, that by convert- cial character. (Hear, hear.)
ing these 24,000,0007. as cash, we shall repay that Mr. SAMUDA approved of the plans of the right hon.
3,000.0e10/. which is wanting, and we shall square gentleman for paying off a portion of the national oblige-
completely our account with the savings banks trustees, tionu. but suggested that, by extending the length of the
so that an unknown liability to come would no annuities to a hundred years, a sum of Bor millions
longer form part of our national expenditure. might be made to wipe out no less than a hundred millions,
And, therefore, we propose this double operation. I call of the debt. If such a course were pursued, the effectl
it operation A and operation B. Operation Ais this. upon the reduction of the national debt would in the.
We take the 24,000,000 f. to stand as the State deposit ac- course of years be very perceptible, and would operate most
count, and which now costs us 720,000 e a year. That beneficially in times when danger was to be apprehended
720,000,0001. a year is already provided for in the estimates to our commercial prosperity.
on the table. N're propose to convert that into annuities Lord STANLEY said that he did not quite understand
' for Deers the same that was begun by Sir George Lewis, the manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
and carried on as occasion offered by others. The effect calculated the capitalised value of the national debt, which
of that conversion will be to raise the charge from he had estimated at 799,000.000 e some odd thousands. It
720,0001. to 1,725,000 r., in round numbers ; or, in round wag made up, as he (Lord Stanley) understood, of three
'numbers, to increase the annual charge by 1,000,000 e That separate items—terminable annuities, the unfunded debt,
is the first operation, and the financial effect will be that and the funded debt. He quite understood the principle
lin le6o-7, if that plan be adopted, we shall pay one-half upon which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to
year's dividend on stock, that is 360,000 f., or one-half of deal with the annuities, and he thought it a very valuable
I 71.0001. ; we shall pay two quarterly dividends on an- one. The difference between the real and nominal value
nuities amounting to 862,0001. That will make a total of the unfunded debt was almost an inappreciable one, but
charge for 1866-7 of 1,222,000/.. instead of 720,0007. ; or, that was not the case with the public or funded debt.
in otherwords, for the year 1866-7 it will impose an addi- If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had added the real
tional burden of 503,0007. ; and if we go on to value of the terminable annuities and unfunded debt to,
I 1867-8, we shall then impose a further additional the nominal value of the public debt, that did not seem to',
burden in respect of this conversion, because then him to afford a fair basis of calculation. If the right hon.'
there will be no longer any interest on stock paid, but all gentleman meant to tell the committee the real amount of
the four quarters would have to be paid according to the the funded debt, it ought to have been taken at 88 instead
rate of dividend on terminable annuities. In other words, of 100. He only wished to ask for some little midi-
' there would be 5V,0007. more laid on the annual charge on tional explanation upon the subject.
the country in respect of the national debt in 1/167-68 over Mr. AYRTON said that he had so often pressed upon
and above what there would be in 1866-67. But then, in the Chancellor of the Exchequer the expediency of the
1867-fee expires what is called the dead-weight annuity, abolition of the mileage duties that be must express hie
amounting to 5146,0007. a year, and one-half of that, or gratification at their reduction. If he considered it neces-
-293,0007. would be immediately available, so that, in fact, sary to cling to the last farthing. he must do so ; but, as
the additional charge in that year would be insignificant in he understood, the matter was still the subject of considers-
amount. The total additional charge undertaken by all tion, and he should be glad to see the duty finally
these arrangements would be 1,005,000 f., the total relief abolished. The reason why terminable annuities had been
wouhl be 586,001. e., so that the real or actual charge would for some years poet almost unsaleable was because they
be 419,0001- a year, if we are to operate in this way at all. had so short a time to rim, and he could conceive that if
(Hear, hear.) But,' then, there is a second operation— new ones were issued for a moderate length of time,
operation Ti—which would be this. The house will ob- advantages would be taken of them by a large clan
serve that this plan must be considered in its effect on the of investors who wished something better than the funds
savings bank funds and the economical use of them as well and more certain than life annuities, but who were not
as the effect on the national debt. The savings banks would prepared to invest on short dates which would run out
be in receipt, as dividends on the 24,000,000 f.. not of ; urn,- g their own lives. He thought that to issue them
7%1.0001. a year as now but of 1,725,0007. a year. What are for 100 years would be as much too long as 20 was too
they to do with it The demands of trustees have recently I short, and considered that 60 afforded a very good point,
been very large, and if it should happen that the press fur i and that such an issue would attract the attention of =-
money should continue, and I have no doubt that those i vectors who, having no children, did not much care what
demands will continue to be large, a very considerable por- became of their money after they were dead. He thought
tion of that 1,0115,000/. which will come to the credit of the it quite possible to pay off a large portion of the
National Debt Commissioners, will be absorbed in meeting 'debt in such a manner, because the additional annual
the demands of trustees. But the demands of trustees charge to enable them to do so would be very
have never yet reached that amount except upon special „male Ht did not know precisely how much, but
occksions, and under the influence of extraordinary panic. his belief was that many millions of such annuities would
They ordinarily come to 030,000/. or 700,0007. and Ido be taken up if converted. Be asked for some further
not think it is likely they will go beyond that' amount ' explanation MS to how the chancellor of the Exchequer
and it is possible that there will be a portion which it will iroposed to pay off 40.000,000 f. of the itavine, bank debt
be requisite to reinvest as the second 'art of the operation; Ly converting only 24,000.010. of public debt into annu-
that is with regard to the dividends on these annuities itiec

Sir F. KELLY had listened with great pleasure to the
explanations of the right hon. gentleman with reference to
the principle of taxing manufactures in preference to raw
material. He, therefore, asked him to fix some e sly
evening for the discussion of the expediency of imposing
• duty on beer in lieu of the malt-tax.
CoIoneIBAWITELOT hoped his hon. friend the member
for East Suffolk would move for a committee to inquire
into the operation and incidence of the malt tax, which
would be of great advantage to the country. If the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would grant inch a com-
mittee he would be in a far better position hereafter to
deal with the question. He also called attention to the
inequality of the land tax, which pressed very severely on
the land in some parts of the country, and was light
enough in other places.
Mr. WHITE expressed his gratification at the reduction
of the fly license from 7!. 10a. to St., and expressed a hope
that the occasional license of 3s. a day, which operated
'very injuriously to Hymen at Brighton on such occasions
as the volunteer review, would be shortly abandoned.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
reply to the noble lord the member for King's Lynn, that
he had taken the course which was invariably done in
estimating the amount of the national debt by taking the
nominal value of the funded debt. There was this consi-
deration to be kept in view in order to arrive at any com-
parison, namely, that if the government bought in the
market, prices would rise. A great portion of the present
fund had been purchased at high prices from 1840 to the
Crimean war, but since then a more moderate price had
been obtained. The consideration on which the public
creditor invested his money in the Three per Ceuta.
was that it would pay • perpetual annuity of 31. per
annum for the payment of 100/. It was quite
true as the noble lord had stated that it was probable
the redemption might be made gradually at a lower rate.
He was much obliged to the hon. member for the Tower
Hamlets for the observations he had made with reference
to the mileage duty and the retention of the licenses. He
did not look upon them as desirable as permanent sources
of revenue ; but the fact was, he never had money enough
to deal with the whole subject. The observations of the
hon. member for Stockport, also those of the hon. member
for Brighton, relative to taxes on locomotion, showed the
manner in which these different kinds of trade touched one
another. The hon. member for Brighton wished to abolish
occasional licenses, because, he said, cabmen were unable
to compete with stage carriage proprietors in consequence
of them. It would be impossible to abolish the occasional
licenses whilst the present system continued, for if they
did every man would interpret the daily use of his carriage
as an occasional use, and thus seek to evade the duty.
He would not be able to deal with the whole question of
the taxation of locomotion until after the government had
received the report of the commission on railways. With
respect to the collection of the *venue, he would
remind the committee that that was a question
hardly germain to the discussion of the financial
statement, but he bad no doubt that the Secretary of
the Treasury would be happy to give every attention to
the subject. He had hoped that these grievances had been
got rid of, but he could enure the hon. member that the
government was desirous of reducing them to a minimum.
There was no doubt that the charge of collection increased
very feat, but to understand the nature and bearing of the
charge the Post-office must be divided from the Customs
and the Inland Revenue. The two latter were economi-
cally collected, and from his experience in that house he
would advise hon. members not to inquire too much into
it, as such inquiries tended to increase rather
than diminish the cost of collection. (A laugh. j
It was a fallacy to compare the expense of the collection
the inlandandcustoms revenuewith the Poet-office. Thelat-
ter was a great and growing establishment, and as its business
extended so in proportion must it increase its expenditure.
He was unable to give the hon. gentleman the member for
Somersetshire an answer as to the game licenses. His im-
pression was that they were working aatirfactorily. If the
hon. gentleman favoarc-d him with the particulars as to
which he desired information it should be furnished to
him. With respect to the land tax, that was u moat
difficult matter to deal with. Those who bad redeemed
the tax would consider that they had a claim
on the government for the repayment of a large
portion of what they had paid. But even if they
abolished the tax, he was afraid that some other land tax
would have to be imposed. He would advise the hon. gen-
tleman not to raise the question, as he did not think the
land had made abed bargain in referenceto it. He ahould be
much suTriaail if the right hon. gentleman the member for
Oxfonlahire would encourage the hon. gentleman to inter-
fere with the land tax, because if they made a clean sweep
and got rid of it, he could foresee that some time or other,
when money would be wanted, there would be a proposal to
lay a new tax upon land, which would probably form •
much more seriotte burden than the presant tax. It was
a tax which was inherited, and people had taken their
land subject to it. With reference to the question of malt
the government would meet any proposition which the
hon. and learned member for Suffolk might make in the
same spirit as on former occasions. It would be for the
lion. and learned gentleman to raise it in what form he
thought proper, but he thought the hon. and learned
gentleman would prefer to deal with it in the
form of obtaining some general expression of
opinion of the house, rattier than initiate the
matter in the form of a bill. He had now to correct
t an error, and to apologise for an omission in his statement.
He was reminded when he sat down that he had not cor-
rectly stated the :mica:tit of the national debt that was
proposed to be cancelled by the operations to which he
hail alluded. There were two operations--one the con-
version of a book debt of 24 millions into annuities
expiring in ]toes, and of course the effect of that
would be to extinguish 24,000,000/. of the debt in
that year. The other operation was an arrange nent
t tinder which it was proposed to take power to invest what
he called the spare dividends from the filet operation in
I tenninable aiumities. but the omission he made was to
state that those annuities would be terminable, not in 1885,
but in 1906. It was desirable, however, that the matter
should not be removed from the view of parliament for so
long a period, and consequently, though the annuities
I were not to terminate until 1905, he only proposed to
take power to make investments of that kind
until 18,5. When that period arrived the whole
ionaitiou would again come before parliament, which would
then have an opportuni.y of reviewing their position. He
assumed that one-halt of the new or extra dividends over
and aboveth.,72o,uoo/. interest would betaken for reinveat-
silent. What he misstated was this, that that would ex-
tinguish Zia millions. It would do so if the whole were
reinvested, but as only one-half of it would be reinvested,
s it would only extinguish about fifteen millions iu round
numbers. Add to that the twenty-four millions that would
a be extinguished in lat4s, and it would give the sum of
I 39.000,000/. which would be extinguished in that year.
Mr. HUBBARD inquired whether the annual reinvest-
• ments were to be in the same terminable annuities ex-
piring at the same time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
the period would extend 20 years beyond the date of 1885.
It would be u it were a turning over with their left hand
into the right and then back again.
Mr. HVBRARD asked if the income tax was to be levied
the same this year as it was last year
t The OHANCI:LLoR of the EXCHEQUER.—Yes.
Mr. HENLEY thought it would be better not to Mecum
the financial condition of the country until they had it
more in detail before them. After the alarming statement
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made—he
would not say propliciied—as the right hon. gentleman had
I flisclaimed it, lie thought the conclusion arrived at was a
somewhat impotent one.
The CitaittmaB then reported progress and obtained
leave to sit again.
THE EXCHEQUER ANBID AUDITLL. DEPARTMENTS
On the consideration of the amendments to this bill,
Sir C. O'L4iGHLEN said he must move the omission of
the clause which hail reference to the superannuation of
those officers who might be appointed under the act. He
was surprised at the way in which it had been framed.
The clause would enable the officers appointed to re-
tain office, though incapable of performing any duty,
because if they retired before 'serving fifteen years they
would obtain no superannuation allowance. The usual
form of the clauses 111 other acts ought to be followed,
which enabled officers to retire in a less period than
fifteen years if they became afflicted with blindness or
other permanent infirmity.
Mr. CHILDERS said this point was discussed in com-
mittee, and he was sorry the hon. and learned gentleman
was not present when the matter was settled. The clause
enacted that if any of these officers belonged to the civil
service he would be entitled to a pension. but if not, and
be did not serve fifteen years, he would not be so entitled,
and the reason was that non-professional persons might be
appointed to these offices. The officers of the civil service
were not entitled to pensions unless they served 16 years.
He thought it was inexpedient to make any alteration in
the clause.
Sir G. BOWYER said the argument of the hon. gentle-
man did not meet the objections of his hon. and learned
friend, who had stated that officers appointed under this
bill would remain in office though incapable of duty, be-
came they would nut be entitled to pensions under fifteen
years' service.
Mr. CRAUFURD thought they ought not to deal in a
niggardly manner with the officers of so important a de-
partment. Under the clause as it stood a man could not
, get any pension until he had served 15 years, and they
' could not but expect that with such an arrangement a man
would continue to hold his office after he had become in-
capable of discharging its duties in order to make good his
title to the pension.
Lord R. MONTAGU supported the clause.
The clause was agreed to.
The remaining amendments were then agreed to.
CROWN LANDS BILL

T'pon the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. AYKTON observed that there was a provision in
this bill by which it appeared that an estate called Clare-
mont was to be granted to her Majesty. If the attention
of the house had been directed to this provision at an
earlier date he thought it would have seen reason for not
proceeding turtherwith the bill, unless the government con-
sented to vrithdraw that clause, because he believed it was a
violation of some important constitutional provisions made
by parliament for preventing abuses creeping into the ad-
ministration of certain public affairs. It had been the
practice of the eovereign, when the crown desired to grant
any pension or other advantage, amountib to 1,200 t.
year, to send a message to that house, stating fur what
purpose such charge or pension was granted. He wished.
therefore, to ask whether Claremont was to be granted to