The Express.
London, England, 1859-03-22 00:00:00

(Stamped id. Additional.) crwl

bean they decided upon the resolution now before the
house, they should confider that, if carried out, it would
lead to this practical result—that no leghlation upon this
subject could take place daring thermoset melon. No po-
litical party was now against reform. Since 1851 bills had
been repeatedly promised ; but it was only under the
present government, after fight years of promies, that
a vote viss asked to be taken upon the ques-
tion. The object of the reminders wae to pee'
vent the house from expressing an opinion upon the emond
reading of the bill ; it wss framed higeelossly sou to catch
the largest number of votes. The question it rased we. not
whether the bill should pass into a law, but whether politkal
power ebould pass into other hands. That was the real
lams. Ile &eked what wasmeant by the working ateam,
'
and what was meant by saying they were =laded t He
contended that many of these classes would come within the
some of the bill, which was more favourable to them than
Lord John's own bill of 1854. The difficulty of admitting
working men to the franchise was to find a prin-
ciple of selection. There were two tests—educatim
and a low personal property qualification. Upoa
the subject of the disfranchisement of small it
roughs, lie observed that a large d4fraacidessaatt
would give rise to the question of the distribution of easts
and to other difficulties The Identity or uniformity of the
franchise for counties and boroughs was objected to • bet
melees it was adopted there would always be a discosteenUd
elms, and the lower the franchise in borough wee carried
the larger would be the disecatestal dom. He edited upon
what principle the distinction between the county and
borough b ambito meted? The one, It was said, was founded
upon property, and the other upon occupation; but it
ignored all forms of property except real peoperty ;
the Chandoe clause made the incoesieteney greater,
and the distinction now rested upon no doer and intelligible
ground. "We have heard a great deal," said hie lordship,
of the hardship of diefranchleing heed-working men, when the
tight had bean enjoyed for many generations. Let us see
what will be the nal effect. In the cue of a man who be-
fore had a vote for the county, but not for the borough, it la
absolutely untrue that any disfranchisement will take place.
(Hem, hear.) He had only one vote before, and he retains
it. (Hoer, hear.) Hs is merely transferred, and the amount
of pointed powee ha exercises is rather teamed then climi-
nishM. We all know that the county constituencies are
larger then those of the boroughs; and we know, also,
that the value of an individual voter depends on the
amount of the constituency. If we take a voter from
a oonatltuency of 12,000, and treader him to one of 1,200,
the practical died of his vole is increased tenfold. (Hear,
hear.) In themes where the freehold gave one vote for the
county, another for the borough, Ido not deny that under
this bill he will be confined to the borough, and Is that
case It will take away are vote. I question whether the
system of don' le vote* can be defended on constitutional
principles ; it Tests merely on custom and trainee' and I
believe these double votes are a mete accident. It is hardly
worth while for me to advert to the charge that in pro-
posing this change we see aotaaled by some interested
party motive, and that we wished to interfere with
this *adds, en amount of the effect of the recently
eatablished societies. la point of feet, these votes
are pretty equally divided between the two pole
Veal parties ; and, in the next place it is as easy for those
societies to bay land without as withis the harts of the
boroughs ; and if the votes are transferred to the boroughs
I have already. said that the political power of these soeiseise
will be rather mereseed. We have heard a good deal of the
disfranchisement worked by this bill. Ido not quite under-
stand is what rime the word is cored. If it is
meant to ionply that • man la deprived of his vote
by this dlh I have already shown that not one
single person is deprived of it, asd the conalitneney a not
narrowed by a stogie iadtvidttal; but &eaten number of dupli-
cate votes are struck off. As to the effect of the measure, I
believe there are now about 95,000 !madders resident in
boroughs. Of these about ene-half will be trsnahrtod, not dis-
franchised, and only the remainder will loss their second
vote. Tocountertahome this by other providoss, • very 110118
increase will be made la the number of voters. We have
heard a great deal of the comparative smallness ot the mea-
sure. It is easy to say what tho exact effect will be. The
premat number of voters is about 900,000, the 101. franchise
in counties will add about 200,000. It is hardly possible to
, get at the number which will be added by the savings-bank,
ednettional, and other new franchises, lint I think we may
take it at another 100,000. It has been said that the IMOWIL
of permed property required is too great ; that is entirely
• matter for future consideration In committee.
A change comes fairly within the scope of the
principle laid down in the UR, which will ad-
mit of a ranch larger Menses to the franchise.
Looking at the matter in a practical point of view, I believe
that at the preen time the choice lim between • oompara-
lively mmli bill and no bill whatever. (Ironical opposition
cheers.) An attempt to carry through parliament • large
measure of reform would meet the fate which attended the
roman, of 1852 and that of 1854. I believe it would fail fi.r
this reason, that the working choses generally are not now
prebaing in the metro manner as they were 27 years ago, for
the emersion of political power • and that the middle clams,
having • much larger share of political power than they bad
thee, are not disposed to part with it. It ie sometimes
maimed that the got ernment of this country is noltreively,
or mainly, io the bands of the aristocracy. I believe that is
meirely an error. (Minio'erial cheers.) I believe that since
1832 what Is celled the middle class have prmically had a
preponderating power in the state; and even the act of 1832
did not create the great power of the middle class ; it merely
recognised and embodied in the political institutions of the
country that which it f mad already in existence. (Hear.)
Hemmer, I think the importance which belongs to tee
middle clam, and the amount of power which is poeticised by
that clam, may be taken as a fair test of social happiness. It
is that dams which had always most strenuously vindicated
the privilege of penonal freedom spina both royal and
eociedastical merosehmeats—(eheers)—it is that clam
which bee given us containable' government—it le
that elm which has laboured to protect the amass'
of the country against the extremism whether
of parliament or of the court, and which has strives to
preserve the placed England when enlangered by a popular
cry for war • it is by that class that the trade of England
!imbrue eat;sded over every portion of the globe; that the
shipping of Eaglets& has been gent into every sea; that
India has been conquered, Canada and Australia colonised,
Liverpool end Manchester crested. (Loud ohms) I see
nothing in the manner in which that elm bas seed the ra•-
, ponderaing political power which it has posereeed since 1832
to make it deeirehle that they should lose it ; and toes it they
will, if by an iedieeriminare extension of the franchise—for
if you proceed in that direction you will not be able to stop
at 81., and what you give to the burghs you will not find
it easy to withhold from the countiee—(hear, hear)—lose
It
they will, I say, if by any indiscriminate eats:trim of the
franchise you Mould put that clam in subordination to an-
other, and that oue which, from no f.ult of its own bat from
the very necessity of the cm, is the least independent and
the least instructed." (Loud mioisterlai cheers )
Mr. H. G. STURT (Doreash(re) said, as a Presentative
of a vary Lugs county oonetintoney. he would endeavour to
expert as briefly as be could his opinion upon the question
Were the horse. He wee one of these who regretted that
the noble eul at the head of the government had not had the
moral *map to cone forward and grapple with this quer
dm, which had been hanging over the country for the last
twenty years. He regretted that the noble earl did not go a
little further, and lay on the table • bill which enroll have
satisfied the just expectations of the people. (Opposition
cheers.) He (11r. H. G. Eturt) must confess that he lid
read the introductory speech of his right hos. famed the
Chancellor it the Exchequer with considerable astonialament.
(Laughter from the opposition) He was eurprimed that
his right honourable friend, who was second to no man
in that house in political ragacity, whit was iufetior to nose
for insight into the political future, could in 1859, coolly,
gravely, and &literately promotes to the Howe of Commons
to deprive more then cue hundied thousand
otic honest, intelloudli-
gent, and, ma he believed, loyal, and pat ri people —(
opposition ebeers)—ot what they considered the inestimable
privilege of antics at county °teatime He had been looking
for the probable reason foe making such a proposal. end he
thought the hon. member for Mancheeter was perfectly sight
when he said that, it was meant as a sep to the county mem-
bers on that (the ministerial) side of the house.
(Laughter.) Well, however well intended that might be,
it did not pay them • very high compliment—(legghter)—
and he wondmd that his hoc. friends around h inst
ead of
accepting the proffered boon, not regard it inim, Ps proper
light, in the view which he t ok of it, namely, as • political
insult to their con& itaents—that they did mash's one voice,
and as one man, pr ant snidest a etherele so unjust, eo un-
fair, sad so ruseifeetly umenwitutienal. (Hear, hear.)
Now, whet was the course pursued by his hon. Mende P
They took the sop. but when they bad got it they did sot
like it. (Greet laughter from the oppueitien) Down came
hi. hon. hired tho member for Somerset/Mee—generous
men—five or six days lam, and proposed an amend-
ment that was nothing more nor lees than a
miserable compromise; and her Majesty's severe-
meat forgetting the saying, that it wee not worth while
to make two bites at 050 cherry, accepted that amend-
ment, thenby compelling him to place their in the
Dame categoi y. Ho less wet aware that rPthat home
couut members—he was Dot now speaking individually.
bemusy e Oast would be personal, bat collectively—hawse well
aware, he mid, that county mambas c nthat side of the house
were not sepposed to have very expansive intellects
oppoeitiou Isughtee)--he wan *county member h
to hid very enlightened tpia!oas • "and upon my toed,
sir," add the hon. member, taftir baviag mixed con-
siderably with them for the last few weeks, and bad
meay very animated conversaticew with them on
this subject, I am really rather indiaed t, sub-
'cribs to that opinion myself." (Roars of laughter.)
Now, be would ark his hon. bands around him in public,
as be bad done over and over again is private, why it was
that they were dread of the people of this countri.. (Loud
opposition cheer'.) What had the people dew dUring the
last SO years to Olt that bress•s with such an amount of
alarm ? (Hear, bear.) Hail they dose anything to mate
suspicion oe justify temerity t (Hem, hear.) Oa the con-
trary, had not the peaceable and lord behaviour of whet
were calledilis aims of this °miry boa a tames deist-

ration throughout the whole world? (Cheers) He knee
he might be met by allusions to the democracy and the
undermining of the threes; but that was such • mistake,
it was snob • narrow view, and, moreover, it showed,
each • gross ignorance of public affairs. (Oppcsitioe .been.)
!Imbued la no rash apprehensions • ha had faith ha the
people this country; a 4 because ha had faith in Omit
Aegatested against any tampering with their coostitutemar
(Chases.) Heide° protected against it because he
was • conservative. (Reamed cheers.) Yes, because he
was a conservative; and let him tall that hon. gentleman
(referring to • minter whose cheers were ironical) who
cheered so melodiously that that man was more worthy of
the appellation of conservative who had faith in his
countrymen, who advanced with the times in which
he livid, and who supported progreweve movements, than
the man who had no confidence in the people, end who was
invariably found rade& his voice or reseeding his vote in
favour of • stand still or retrograde policy. (Chem..) As •
conservative, be should, when the proper time arrivedt.u.srecerd
his vote in homed extending the borough franchise,
there were at that moment thousands and tans of thousands
of the working clamenw holwere precluded from erd
that right of voting which in his coaseience he beliezveed=
intelligence and education qualified them to exercise.
(Cheers.) Awl now, having said thus much, he mast
claim the further Indulgence of the house while he se.
pleined the grounds of the vote which he was about to
eise; blesses if he did not do that he might las tad to
hoessered to his aceeltuents the
tdra:r7siatilri:gioeViliemnrovfe.ttales Prc&ianilldhped
In common with the majority, he was exoemingly anxious to
age a fair and sethfactory tuessure of reform passed by both
Houses of Parliament during the present seistion. The
question, then, naturally suggested lime( to hen, whether be
would beet promote that object by voting with the noble lord
the member for the City of London. Re thought not.
(Opposition cries of 6 Oh, oh.") If the amend-
ment of the noble lord were carried, all chance
of carrying • Reform Bill dating the present session
would be effectually gone. Surely it would be in the tower
et any member of that house, when the Lill went into com-
mit to move resolutions embodying the principles laid
down by the noble lord. Her Majesty's government bad not
during their tenure of office shown any very great disincline.
tion to advance half way to meat the wishes of the house--
(laughter)—and he could not we any reason why this bill,
after one or two oiniesionti—(laughter)—tee or three altars.
tione—(renewed laughter)—and three or four additions—
(great laughter)--should not be modified Into a bill that
would be consonant with the feelings of that house and the
define of the people.
Lord BURY was sorry that the government had intro-
duced this bill, and objected to the bill itself, not only for the
smell measure of reform it gave, but because it was reform
not in • right direction. It unsettled everything and settled
nothing. He should vote for the resolution and against the
bill.
Mr. KIM SEYMER applied himself principally to • re-
futation of the arguments employed by Mr. Bright In his
reform speeches out of doors. Looking at the position of the
House of Commons in the practical working of the constitu-
tion, he said be thought it had encroached very much upon
the two other branches of the legislature, and, If we were
to have a Home of Commons working harmoniously
with them, the landed and agricultural interest must
be represented strongly. A moderate measure of redeem wen
ell that was required, end, with the exceptins of the d Wren-
chisement (se ft was relied) of the borough freeholders, which
he condemned, be thought this to be a manure which de-
served the support of the house.
Alderman SALOMONS hoped for the indulgence of the
bowie while for the fret time be toek a brief part in ono of
its debates. (Hear, hear.) He wished he knew its members
sufficiently well to be able to distinguish between the two
hoe. member. from Dersetakeire, with one of whom ho agreed,
whilst from the other he differed. With the first of those
hon. member" he entirely spapathised—all but the condo-
le:in to which he had come. He (Mr. Salomon.) had often
been brought into contact with the working classes, and he
believed that if any idea was more firmly lined than another
in their minds, it was that they wore entitled to a
fair there in the repreentation of the country. (Hear, Mar.)
lie believed that they could not, without danger, be ex-
cluded from • Reform Bill. end, looking at the immensee
strides they had of late years m.de in intelligence, it seemed
entremely odd that et the present time their claims should
hove been entirely overlooked in the government measure.
(Beer, bear.) Much bad been said in favour of the savings
hank franchise, but he believed it had been forted that the
tweaking clams generally were not depoeitora but preferred
investing whet little money they might have in buil ling
sochniee, which were, Le feared, not the meet profitable of
investments. (Hear, hear.) A great deal bed been asid
about party infierarces. He must confess that his
sympathies were with the liberal party, bat they were
more with liberal measure', and if be voted with the noble
I 'rd the member for London, it was because be tethered that
no Reform Bill could be enemata' which did not give the
working classes their proper share in the representation.
They should remember that denim the last three weeks the
bill of the government had been condemned on every
heating. in the kingdom, and it was t s him • molter of
surprise that not even in the counties had a tingle meeting
' been got up is favour of it. He regretted that his first vote,
in the house should be given 'genet the mloistry, to wham
exertions he was in some respect indebted teethe privieed
sharing in its debates, but he owed it to his country and his
conscience, if he thought a measure not calculated to be bene-
ficial to the country, to give his vote against that measure.
Such being his conviction rerpecting the government
meager., be felt bound to vote in -favour of the noble lord's
resolutions. (Hem, heir.)
Mr. LIDDILL said that he should vote for the mooed
reading, but as he did not consider that in it. present
shape it was in all respects calordeud to allay the agitation
whittle prevailed on the eubject of reform, he should hold
self free to deal freely and impartially with soy propoeition
which IMP be brought forwent in committee for tea amend-
ment, with the view of still further entrunchieing the work-
ing chases. Being really desirous of seeing the question
satisfactorily settled. and beleviag that the noble Imo's moo-
laden would praetcally hue the effect of delayinsuch settle-
epee', and interposing a difficulty in the way of a bill which.
being brought forward by the party now in power, was likely
when It went up to the other haute to be teetived with
favour there, ha hit bound to oppose the noble lord's mottos.
Sir C. WOOD considered the bill so objectionable and ob-
uoxione in its principles that he would prefer no bill at all.
He insialed that the identity of franchise in town and t aunty
was a dangerous one. Was it to be spoiled, he askedt to
Scotland and to Ireland F Although he did not Weir. an in-
discrlmiente adraiseion of the workieg classes to tb o froncinee,
and wee nut prepared to make them the ruling clam in the
country, he thought that, considering bow much they had im-
proved of late years, it wss high time that they should have
some voles in choosing representatives, and he contended
that the government measure did not contain an adequate
provilien for their aduoiwion. He, therefore, concurred is
the resolution. The moat dangerous consequences would,
in his opinion, result from the ptopoaal of the government to
eliminate from the county comeitumem one-filth, the most
iniopendont class of voters, and to afferd the means of manu-
facturing hrgotevotes, and reviving rotten boroughs. The
resolution left it open to the goverament to adopt the course
it suggested, of lowering the franchise in the boroughs end
of shoeing the provision regarding the borough freeholders,
and if they refused, they would be naponsthle for the em-
ir. RORSMAN said that the reeolntkn which the noble
lord had moved implied two things ; in the first place, that
what were pointed out as the blots in the bill were really its
two chief defects ; and in the second place, that they were
not suasemible of amendment in the committee. He did sot
agree to either of those two positions. lie thought thane
were other various defects in the bill which could be pointed
out, and that these were not the two width ought to be
selected sa the arcane. Still Iws would ho say that they
were ouch as could not be amended is coramitlee. The first
related to the 40s. freeholders in Mena awl the county fran-
chise. That provision was In the are clans; but the first
clause ran through three rages; It conested of 80 Rum, and
this provisii n occupied only 18 Dees at the top of the second
page; there were four provisions which followed each other
in succeetien, and by striking out the firm line of the first
page, sand the first 18 liner of the second page, wbieh was
tees than °neat earth of the flr,t clause, the bill ormaistieg of
70 clausee—bar expunging the first four provisions item
line 4 to line 20, they would get rid of the provision which
affected musty voters fa towns and the 40e. fran-
chise, Well, then, was it a very serious amend-
meat to strike out ens-fifth pars of the clause?
He had men, a dozen times over, whole clauses expunged
frees different pets of bills, sad he thought the more regular,
the more business-like and the more effective way of getting
rid of that obnoxious amiss would be by minim this amend-
ment in committee, instead of now on the second reading.
He then came to the second amendment, as to the borough
franchise. He perfectly agreed in die approving of both
those detente of bill, but he did not erne that they ought
to tejeet the bill because of throe defeat" instead of removing
the defects from the bill. The borough franchise was dealt
with in the ball of 1864, and bow? Was it a dittleult and
complicated affair ? It was dealt with by one clime ; the
18th clause of the bill of 1864 provide,' for the right of
vet ng in boroughs under certain qualifications. If now
they were really maims that this hill should extend
the right of voting in boroughs, be so.add
pit it e' the
madam of any member of that home whether it "mild not
be a much easier plan to bring that clause in committee and
move it. inertias in the bill ? Could any man doubt distil*
most regular, theemist, and the most effective manner of
in-
naming that amendment into the bill would be by s prods*
deem stating the exact point to which they would Waco the
qualification of the suffrage I' Surely that would be •MA
businesslike prorreding by a resolution, which was
vague and undefined, and which did not state to what ex-
tent the aggrage was to be reduced ? These were the two
defer's pealed out by the verintion they wire a/BOOSSiSC
an 4 it *pp and to him that there never wage two &bets
more easily remedied, or tor which the remedy woo
more obvious stvi effectual. lie thought the pro-
vision as to voting papers was also • preat de-
feat in the bill. Meer, hear.) But those clauses
came together is the middle:of the bill, sad was anything