The Express.
London, England, 1860-02-21 00:00:00

THE TREATY OF COMMERCE.

Lord DERBY, on inquiring what steps her Majesty's
government intended to take to carry into effect the 20th
Article of the Treaty of Commerce with France, said he
should not discuss whether this treaty was or wee not in
accordance with the principles of free trade; it decidedly
was at variance with the principles laid down by her
Majesty's government some two or three months ago, and
he read several extracts from the oorreepondence between
Lord John Russell and Lord Cowley to show that Mr.
Cobbs, with the sanction of Lord Palmerston and Lord J.
Russell, had been actually negotiating a treaty on the
very bum which they had shortly before repudiated.
He had no doubt the government considered the treaty
as one of reciprocity—an opinion from which be
most strongly dissented. There was a feeling la
the country that much mystery had been observed in nags
datiag this treaty, especially as Mr. Cobden was not pod.
timely known to have been the principal negotiator before We
treaty was laid before parliament. The oorreepondente
which had been made public was very meagre and minds.
factory, and parliament was able to gain bet little inhale-
don from it. He proceeded to draw a parallel between the
mode to which Mr. Pitt had introduced his commercial treaty
with France in 1787, and the manner which the present go-1
vermeils had deemed it expedient to adopt—very much in
favour of Mr. Pitt's method of procedure. That procedure ha
detailed at some length, and called particular attention to the
part which the Rouse of Lords took in discussing that
treaty, urging upon their lordships the absolute ueoessity of
discussing questions of this kind, and not refraining from
them on the miataken notion that, as the treaty referred to
money mitten, the House of Lords bad no business to
meddle with them. Both in a political and a financial light
he considered it was highly beneficial and necessary that
these questions should be demised by their lordships. Did
the governmest, be wished to know, propose to use the
same mesas as Mr. Pitt to obtain the consent of par-
liament to render this treaty valid—vim, fleet to com-
municate the resolutions to their lordships, and then
to Wises her Majesty for her sanction to the terms of the
treaty; and, finally, to carry out the treaty by an act of
parliament? He rated highly the advantage of extending
our commove@ with France, but he wished to see it dose, if
done by treaty at all, by a treaty bearing on its face some
narks of reciprocity. He regretted to see that no steps had
been taken to obtain ea equalisation of the duties on ship-
ping, and demounted the article on the export of coal as
moat impolitic, and highly dangerous in its possible conic-
quesoes to our relations with countries with which France
might be at war, if coal were to be declared contraband of
war. In oddities to which It was an article in which
there could be no reciprocity. The noble Ind continued—
It is admitted that the treaty will be moot unpopular in
France—that large classes of the French people are opposed
to it as detrimeetel to their interests, and that so famous Is
the objection and so great the difficulty, the' according to
the ordinary mode of legislation in France the Emperor,
with all his power and all hie appliances, would be unable to
pass the proposed reduction of duties through the Freak
Legislature—(hear, hear)—but it is said, if we will assist Idat
in this difficulty, and make it a matter of treaty—if we will
lay down the principle of so dealing with it, thee, in spite el
the opposition, the Emperor of the French will be enabled to
give to thou sue the power of law by a special enactment
which he could not pass through the Legislature in the oeffie
nary way. If there were any truth in tots statement of the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, I must say that It
appears tome a vary singular mode of consulting the lalesseb
of the people of France, and of securing for ourselves a lied-
ing of general compliance. (Hear, beer.) Now the queetkm
which I wish to have answered by the noble Earl (Granville)
is, what atop@ her Majesty's government proposa to take la
order to give effect to the tOth article of this treaty? I be-
lieve I have enooseded in showing that It will be necessary
that the assent of parliament should be given in a positive
and formal manner—not that it should ha merely implied—
and the only mode by which the smut of parliament can be
constitutionally given is by legislative enactment—not dean
with particular parts of the
.treaty only, but deciding the
treaty generally both in its principle and details, and enacting
the &meet of parliament. (Hear, hear.) In that way only
oan It be applied. I shall be glad to beer from my Debts
friend thst the government has made op its mind to adopt
that course, because if that course be adopted there will be
ample opportunity for both houses of parliament to consider
the treaty in all its bearings ; and to that cams I as assure
him that on my part, and on the part of those with whom I
sot, there will be no desire to eater upon the consideration in
any factious spirit, or with say desire to interpose difficulty
or delay. The questions of the gravest doubt In my mind
are, in the first place, whether it is wise in regard to any
financial regulations of this nature to bind ourselves hand and
foot for ten Nacre—(hear, hrser)—end in the next place,
whether, however desirable I may be to extend—as I hope
to ea then extended—one commercial relations with Frazee,
this is the time to do it, when we have an esemnans Adel
of revenue, and whoa, to obtain the anticipated adasages
of the treaty, we meat largely increase, and, as I Wises
make permanent, a system of taxation which the legislature
has hitherto reserved for periods of cy and actual
war; but whether, if we introduce this I l. in the pouted
en all income* in a time of peace, it will be henceforth eats-
blished as a portico of our ordinary revenue, which you
never afterwards can get rid of—thus depriving yourselves
of the readiest and rout powerful mean. of meeting any
great and sudden emergency. (Hear, hear.) I object to
some of the articles of the treaty on their own merits, and
to other., not upon their merit., but because, even if the
agreeable calculations of the Cbenocllor of the Exchequer
should be bores out, I consider this is not the moment to
enter into such stipulation, when the mans by which it is
proposed to provide for the loss which it Is admitted will be
swanned by the operation of the treaty are means most
objectionable in a time of pesos, and which should be only I
applicable in oases of war or extreme emergency. For the
sake of regularity I will conclude by moving that there Fe
laid before your lordships' house copies of the journals of
the two houses of Parliament relating to the treaty of com-
merce with Francs by Mr. Pitt in 1786. (Cheers.)
Lewd GRAINY defended the government la the
course they had taken relative to the treaty, and pointed
out • distinction which had escaped the observation of Lard
Derby—vim, that Mr. Pitt's treaty was confined in its
operation to Frame and England, while the recently-made
treaty dealt with the Customs duties of the country
_gene-
rally, and aff:cted she whole world es much as it affected
France. In reply to Lord Derby, he stated that the govern-
ment proposed to carry the 20th article of the treaty_ tato
effect after certain resolutions were speed to in the House
of Commons; that house wank' then be advised to wres
to an address to her Majesty, and If their lordships
wished for fall information the res Autions and
address would be laid before them, and they
might then adopt ea address of their own, se
use done by the Howe 14 Lords
_in Mr. Pitt's time.
Hear.) As to the qualms of oee• Wades's, he could not
lap feeling that at the present moment ta Francs some of the
saint
e eminent
imes statesmenible leans
ar
I: beetreaent7tin
thestron of
gout
.tg.hatuoo..utteorytina deploey
to
Bagdad, and ens which would absolutely rein all the beet
nanatecituriag and commercial interests in France. Hero
kali einaory they were told in the same way, though
xis cog in such strong language that all the
ggegueges were for France and not for England. It was
legitally impossible that the two opinions could be wholly
right. If be were a proleciiaid—be recollected Indeed it
had base said by one of their lordships that the animal was
only to he got at by digging down to a very deep substratum
of the earth, though he was not quite so sure of that, for
be believed that though It might be in a state of supendu
stealth n, a specimen might be found on the surface of
the oath— (langliter)—bres if he were a protectionist he
might logioally hold that a treaty of this sort would be in-
jurious to both countries ; but as a free trader, which he hid
been since entering pedalo life, and havlsg watched the
general effects of every restriction removed from COrnateeoe,

he believed +tat they would find that the present treaty
would be Mott benificial in its operation. And what the
noble earl talked of Mr. Cobden having exclusively me-
tt:ths treaty, and of Lord Cowley having washed hie
whom anything coneseted with it, he was under an sa-
tin misapprehensia, arising probably from the very modest
language of Lord Cowley in wishing to give the chief credit
to Mr. Cobden. On the other hand, ter. Cobden
ecksowiedged that be had derived the greatest
possible advantage from the experleres miladtb
and judgment of her Majesty's arobenador at P.m.
To say, however, that they entered into this treaty avowedly
in order to force it t 111.311 the French people against their will
was not a fair way of putting the case. (The Earl of DERBY
explained, as we understo,d, that he said the Emperor of tare
French would be unable to peas the treatythrough the Logue.
lades Assembly.) The Emperor of the French had a pee/
Men peraphos of gnat was i.greable to tie sada over
which ha ruled. There was a great difference, however, be-
tween doing a thing which wee dietastetul to the Preach
people sad having a difitculty to dealing with a certain
chamber when the induces of certain protected canes,
which he had ens le this country, was very powerful. Did
they Mask that it the ion; ems of the French had not seen
that the 111011110.10 would be sdvsntegeana to France and very
Gamong the great man of oonsum re in that counts/ 3P41•41 have mitered into negotiations with ue for carrying
It into effect ? (Hear, hear.) He (Earl Granville) believed
that the more free trade was extended the more it would
continue to be extended, because the nemestry for breaking
down the artificial restrictions which impeded commerce
would then teams more apparent, and therefore it was •
'teat satisfaction to him to think that this treaty bad been
consented to by her Majasy's government. (Rear, hear.)
Rai GREY thought that the noble earl an bad just
spokes did not rally estimate the iseportimee of the question
which had been pat to him. The resolutions proposed by
Mr. Pitt in 1787, in a °menthes of the whole home, wen
sot the foundation of any legislation, for the chairmen was
sot lastrecited to move for has to brag in • bill. If
the ggoovveerenament lied followed the preathat set by Mr. Pitt,
rseolntloaa matt have been moved, sad addreens made to
the crows, asking her haasty to open negotratioes with
Frame, ani endeavour to obtain a revision of the treaty
upon certain points. The more be looked at the treaty the
more imperfect it seemed to be, and the men dear it appeared
that it was not one which parliament ought to agree to.
Instead of following the precedent of Mr. Pitt they had
game at ace into the customs duties, and virteally tied their
hands and deprived themselves of the legitimate opportunity
of endeavouring to Improve the provisions of the treaty.
The Duke of ARGYLL thought the truth was that we
were merely taking one step forward in the suss path we had
steadily pursued ever since 1812, whereas Franco was taking
• step far more significant than was taken b Mr. Huainan
when he commenced reforming our com oysters. With
regard to the observations wind:tad been made in the cane
of this discussion upon the 3rd article, relating to shipping,
he mast admit it would have been more satisfactory to this
country if the treaty were a navigation treaty as well
as one of a commercial character. But the fact was that the
French bed not been asked to alter their navigation laws,
sod we had accepted the changes they offered and which
were beneficial to themselves. He might observe that our
export trade of coal to France now actually exceeded in
amount the whole quantity which in 1812 was exported to
, the whole world, and that a great deal more than two thirds
of that trade use in the hands of English shipowners. He
believed that the more the matter was discussed the more
clearly it would be sae that ss regarded the eleventh article,
we had not deceived ourselves of the smallest fiscal powe,r,
and with respect to political power, that we had not deprived
ourselves of any right whatever. He mat protest against
' its being held out to the country that the comities:se and
the incases of the income tax were enentiolly connected
with the provisions of this treaty, or at least as mach so as
they were with our great naval and military expenditure.
He moat say that it was highly unjust and invidious—it
was untrue in fact—to connect the increase of the income-
ta with this treaty. (Hear, hear.)
The Barl of HARD WICEB said that the main objection
, which he made to the course puma by the government
was that they bad Tied this country for ten years to come not
to make any change whatever in reference to those duties
' which bore on the intercourse of shipping. One point seemed
r to have been entirely omitted in this debate is reference to
i the condition of the shipping of the two countries, and it was
, this, that at present the produce of AA* Atria, and America
could only be imported lain France in bond for re-exporta-
tion, but if this treaty were passed, the Emperor could admit
those goods from Asia Africa, and America, in French ships
t for oineumpeos, by Asa,
them by differential duties.
This would give • great advantage to France, and place ker
, in • position so wetly superior to that which ene had hitherto
held, that the interests of oar own country must sulfa ex-
' tremely.
• The motion was then withdrawn.
Their lordships adjourned at 20 minutes to 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MONDAT, FEB. 20.

'no 8r241432 book the chair at 4 Vela*.

iita Mewls* bins were read • mooed U. :—Cola River
Water; Beam sad Woking Railw ; Llyini Vale Rail-
way and Harbour; lisocleafirld ay
Maattbeeter sod
Milford Railway; Sovereisa Life Asses; Company;
Stockport, Dialey, &0., Railway ; Tewkesbury, Uptoa, &cc.,
Railway ; Westminster Improvements; Ulster Railway and
Bills. Corporation of Belfast; and Weibagton (Salop) Water,
BERWICK-ON-TWEED ELECTION.

Mr. BRIGHTrid i;isadiops•eatTiet;ti.;;;;lating to
the last election for Berwick .on-Tweed. The petiii,LETS
stated that at the last election, which took place in April,
Captain Gordon and Mr. Eerie were returned as members
for the borough, but it was believed that the election had
been characterised by gross corruption. and a petition
was presented against the return of thaw gentle-
moo. The petition, however, was not proceeded with
on account of • compromise having been entered into, one
condition of which was that Mr. Earle should retire before
the end of the session, and that Mr. Marjoribanks should be
elected without opposition. The electors did not entirely
sweat to this understanding, and when the vacency occurred
in August, Mr. Marjoribanks was stoutly opposed, though
he obtained the emu by a narrow majority. The person. who
signed this petition were menthes of the Northern Reform
Union, and they prayed the hones to make such an Inquiry,
either by examination at the bar of the house or otherwise,
as might prevent the topsail:a of such practices.

- .
NOTICES OF MOTION.
THE CLEANSING OF THE SERPENTINE.

Sir J.V. SHELLEY gawelnotioe that, as scenes the returns
:vial Jag to the cleaneing of the Serpentine were in the hands
of hon. members, he would call the attention of We house to
the subject, and Rive the honer an opportunity of deciding
as to the desirability of proceeding with the works.
FOREIGN SPIRITB.—CORKS.

Mr. T. DUNCOIiBiI gave notice that in committee on dm
Customs Acts, oa resolution No. 3, he would move as as
amendment that the duty no foreign spirits should be 10e.
per , insisted of Bs. 2d.; sad that ia the 4th and 6threso otiose he would more that the words "corks ready-
made" be struck out.