The Express.
London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL

Tee more iotca1;111 was received.
Their Lordship toss adjaaraad at 25 labiate* to 7 (Atka.

HOUSE OF COhLMONS.—__MONDAT, JULY 25.
(Continued from yesterday's ispreas.)
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.--THE SCIENCE
AND ART DEPARTMENT.
O. the voted
160,46e1. toe natiend whicelian in Inks&
Mr. MAGUIRE called buena in to the inadequacy of the
so-called improvel male of pay for teachers of national
mhunle." si bile bearing his strongest teetimosy to the
bentliie which the national system had conferred on leotard,
ore an educational machinery, be mud taproots his opinion
Reath had decidedly failed to fulfil the object with which it
was originally proposed. The original principle was
sep oats religious tostruction, with combined secular
indruction. Of the children taught under this ayeterm,
emenosightba, or nearly half • million, were Roman
ovholies. Tbe system had worked well at find ; but he
complained that the rule as to separate religious instruction
had been relaxed, to the disedvantege of the cetholits. Ihe
hon. gentleman instanced a school at Cook, to which a grant
had been refuted becalm the mbool was titst of one of the
religious orders. In the achoole in Belled sod other places
it appeared that catholic children bad beep showed to be pre-
sent at the reeding and expounding of the Scriptures by pro-
natant feathers. No wonder that Catholic priests and
bishops were beginning talon their confid,noe in tin ins-
ure. There ought to be a better representation of caohdioo
on the Melina Board; at present there were nnly five collo-
lice to nine protester:de and pr. ebyterians. If there were he
be denotninationel grants ia Ireland there most be adequate
protection sgalaat landlord proselythere. It would be an
astounding fact to English gestlemes, who paid their
labourers from twelve Ratline to twenty shillings •
week, that the pittance received by the teacher. in the
national schools was ids. 40. a week. (Hear, bear.) They
hod no home, se bad the English teachers • and the CPA et
house, fuel, and clothes for the teacher end his family, left
only 161. a year for their sopport, or twopence per head per
day. As nutted in the report+ of the commlmionen, to..
scanty payment operstod most toMoiously on the Intense, at
the mhools. as the beet teachers wen continually quittleg
them. Recently there had bou semi increase of ion, of 41.,
21., and IL a year to didesont clams*. This could eel, betaken
as a beginning. It was said the other night that moms of the
national teachers bad been disposed to enter the r.nks of
rebellion. He wee tarry for it ; but what could be expected
of non who were marked out for degrsdation—at least for
privet inn?
Mr. GEORGE oleo enforced the necessity of a mare dee
quite scale of remmaraten for tasoliere. It was impessible
to secure the services of educated and properly trained ad
for each paltry salaries. He hoped that where en advisee of
salary wee given a most marching inquiry would be map as
to the moral qualificatiom of the scoonlinamers. It was sow
perfectly notorious that not one or two, but seven or eight
of the eatianal teachers in the south of Ireland hid bees im-
plicated is acts of trome sad disloyalty to the threw of
there realms. Had the inepectors of the National Board per
their duty it was not likely that this evil would
have spread so extensively so It was proved to
have done. A sum of 16 8001. was voted fir the
commissioners and their stag; and the public had
e right to expect that their inspooton should be them-
solve. inspected. (Hear, hear.) It wee • miefortune for the
country that such men se the Archbishop of Dabble and Mr.
Baron Gnome should have been induced to leave the board.
Its prated constitution use not satisfactory; there could
to be an leaf edon of new blood. He mantic i to bear from
hob sides of the home that united education war regarded se
• Utopias selsame. He thought th.re could be no Macomb,
la Isavim the Scripture Amply reed donee; tohrl hours.
lir W. SOMERVILLE said that any cm resident is
Imbed met feel that throe meet enential officers, the
lesebent, were wretchedly underpaid. The sitcom of the
gam aimed wholly depended on this being roimedied.
Colossi DICKSON was nib of Mooing of conciliatios
she companies and the rival intonate of oatholice and Fre-
emason". The only way to conciliate wee to mix teem up
es
touch as possible In secular oration, bat to leave them
impart on them gnat
.cfnedions of rellgiosie Lath on which
the sincerely dared. (Hoer, bear.) After the clear ems
node out by Mr. Uruh+, be .ed that the cline of the
Irish Metiers would_ be hvomaly comidered,
Lord FEEMOY repelled the maceration of disloyalty
which bed been made wild the national schoolometers.
If emotive the 6,050 then were three or four black sheep,
why should the whole be stigmatised as treasonable and dis-
loyal ? Judged by this net, Trinity College itself copula
not escape the sharp of dioloyalty, for some
the moat spirited efusiose in the Nation nawepa ter in ISM
hod been written by students of that college. (Hear, hear.)
The system of education In Inlaid had sow arrived at a
crisis; it was in such • condition that both patties had ceased
to hem oesedeneer it it.
Mr. GEORGE disclaimed any binaries to met impels.
nous se ohs national schoolmasters as a body.
fler li. GROGAN expressed his belief that the system had
cones to • oriels. Ir should be remembered that the pedestant
perdition derived no beerfit from this grant; sod they could
ast pen ezclud:ng one dem entirely from the benefit el the
07e6feei
Mr. LABOUCHERE magnified to fled that in the pee'
sent estimate there rasa deal borrow of pay to the embers;
sad if this were ha heed selledene he hoped le wuttld In
segensted. It wee mid thin • crisis in the olden bed sea
rived. He believed that it hid produced a most bedsit!
ekes; It wee • bright spas in the history or Igoe
land: the oysters wee one which Enabled or girl
other canny might envy; sad he trusted that no Irishmen
would put it fn peril. (Hem hear.) It wee tene the sys-
tem bed net worked se • vision' of mixed edneation is the
general way which wee anticipated • but It bad worked as •
neutral system of doestine by withdrawing It from polemb
oil Influence and the hostile °heretion of two rival relight..
(Bair, hear.) The donoudnatimalh= would revive
Omaha russet la wary parish la

tner.doing so; bat they had not allowed up the
selegoveramsat by granting them the right of self.
(Haar, hear.) It appeared from the return which wee
tor by the bon. member for Aberdeen, that 3,600,0001 wee
the to the defence of their *min !be
of Minion which the colonies bore Der *dr hod
abate woe cog 337,0001., or one•tenth of the whelp eifiß
(Sear, Mar.) Deducting what was spent on the pima mae.,
tory stetter, inn one Gibraltar, Malta, Matuten, laity
the military szpeaditure foe the Wotan repo wet
2,600,0001., and the taxation of the coheir WM, tae
220,001., tee that Conde and Australia ten WV ametgedi
of the expenditure err the defences of their on territorise.
Thst semen •very radequate propene for treaters, yet
me carter of this
expenditureee for a loerforoe sun se pros
an militia. The expenditure in this e entry for military
an Ildensinpurpoees might be taken in round numbers at
aer bead. or 30,000,000 i. for • population of 30.000,000,
la nailir•which was an example untavourable to his oge-
es., for Canada spur more in properties for her military
Aden then say other colony—the proportion of espeaditute
for many defence to population was only 11. tar every 60
inbelants—the strudels* being 42,0001., sad the pops-
Wien 2,000,000. The pressure of the burden, therefor,
was fed than as great in this Wand as it wss
in Crab. Putting the case in another point of
view, he found that great as was this disproportion,
Semen a still greater dtspropordos in the distribution of the
taxation between the colonies themselves. As • general rule I
it would be found true that this.* who ought to pay moat rid
least, and those who ought to pay Islet veld most. The
military stations, such es Malts, tiro lonian brads, Mani-
taut, and Co; lon, were most of them taxed to the full amount
fur then own defence. whilst Canada had a onnsiderattlei
number of Queen, troops fur which she paid nottine. The
C .pa hod • .1111 larger furs for which she paid not • foiling.
Auetralis by a recent arrangement bore • small pontos id
the expenses toe bet defence, but the crony of Visa**
DO other reason that he could see, except that it was Misr
than the others, paid more than any other Au.tralian °okay..
' Lord Grey, in • deseatoh addreseed to Sir C. Fitzroy,
1819, laid down the true principle which should govern this
question, and the right boo. gentlemen the member far
Taunton had done most to carry it on. However, be 'bona
not perhaps speak of the expense if the stores were *Sol.
stilly defended. Ice England they had 110,000 troops in-
eluing militia • in lathe they lied $6,000 Hessa's trap ;
whilst in all Silt oaken, KAMM& as they Were OM Um
globs, they had only 42,000 men. Dobson( those whs.
were employed In their milemey senses Mar sesoolned
Sr the donnas of Cards, See* Alli
sad New Zealand, 22,000 see. The ersemyeserst
Ws system to the mamba wee that they wow very
Near
% soil If a general war were to sew
tzt,„ wars* geeibls that they must not loos sem of
Tiff might be obliged to scrip the oresame el
ore whets ot theft rags, whilet, in coroners of the cor-
rupting system of dependence on the mother country which
had been I.uraned, the colonists were not trained to &fent
themselves. Toe noble lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs took part In tomer &bare on thin subject, end
maintained that if we did not defend our colonies other
foreign countries would do so. Now. his (Mr. Adderley's)
argument was, that if they continued to defend their colonies
as they. now did, they must retiredly hand them over
to foretell Dower.. Whet were the otinsrqosnont to
this country 1' Excessive expenditure in the first plans.
Another consequence to England of scatteeieg het troops
needlessly among toe color.' was that when a gemmed war
broke out she was obliged to have recourse to Germs,
Swim, and Italian legion.. Queen's troop. were not the her
troop fee the &Greet tee colouies. All experience proved
that the colonial asiiiis were the beet pooliblo troops for that
purpose. Another result of the maintenance of the English
troops in the colonies was a most wa.tetui expenditure of
stoney. Then was no proper control over the expenditure
of the colt 1111011. Bet the more troops were sent there
more money would be gent. At this moment they knew
nothing of the expenditure on the Garman Legion. (Hear,
hear.) That force was sent out to se Cape at an enormous
expense; the understanding was that they were not to be
placed on full pay, unless then was enmity foe their ser-
vices, but the Governor found that nemoslty the moment
they landed, and they had been kept on fall pay ever since.
A repatch of Earl Grey to Sir C. Fitzroy, Governor of
New South Wales, in 1819, vary clearly laid down the prin-
ciples which ought to guide the mother country in lege-
toting this matter. The noble earl said: It is the
right of colours to look foe • fair share of proton
lir irons the mother country, but the colonies have
mode nob prteress In wealth, population, and intelligence
that they ought to beer eon portion of the expense; they
should provide the necessary accommodation for the Queen's
troops They have representative Institution all MIA.'
time on lucid trade have been removed, so they were, at
least, bound to provide accommodation. It weld be utterly
indef• noible to send troops to the colonise for the mere.pur-
poss of local police; but on the ptneat system the garners
were worthless against end used
only for the purposes of polioanriains. far from
wing that the colonies ought to bear eqaally
with Greet Britain the exposer of the defence of
as empire, became they were not reptmented in that house:
bat Mere was no reason why this country should bear reas-
oner, while they paid only one-tenth. They ought at least
to provide barracks. He had heard but two objections
art mune he suggested ; she first was that the colonies
would very soon become independent if troops were not kept
there; each an argument, however, would not beer a
moment's reflection. If they were to be kept In subjection by
SENDS it would require a far larger saner of trcops. The
scaly effect of the present system was to make theta
depot:dent In the worst and most corrupt erre.
They bad during the late war ample proof of their et-
re:rag to this country. Canada offered to raise troops and
tete bee sham in the Wean of the empire. If the result of
them to provide their own defect, would be to make
them nt, In would rather see that than the present
Mar of th s. It the time ever tame when a member of
Os Ewen royal family would be King of Canada, that
• Ina be a more healthy state of things than the present. It
was 'aid Canada would not be able to defend herself. The
reply to that was, that the intelligenoe, wealth, and
population of Canada ware grater than the wealth,
population, and intelligence of the United Stairs
were when they not only defended themselves
without the widens of the mother country, bat
even established their independence against her. In conclu-
sion. Is appealed to the government whether ohs orrent
ants of things was satisfactory/ He trusted that if they
bad not dreedy taken it into consideration they would shortly
do so ; If they did be would Iran it in their hand. but if
not he would at the earliest possible period next 110Ide move
for a select committee on this subject.
Lord A. CHURCHILL rid the subject was one of greet
imp nonce, end the time hed now arrived whoa they should
resider what Mount of protection this country could afford
to the corers.
Yr. MARSH said Dolling could need the loyalty and
attecennt of the Australian curare to this country.
SZE DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY. _

- _
elr DE L. EVANS than rode to mom, That, in the
opinion of dila honor, taking into consideradost the relations
miming between mme of the prat military powers of the
cosolsont, it is advarble that a opt:limiest= la appointed.
oonalatitig of civilises and military sad naval *Seem to in-
quire into and collect information concerning the present
condition of our national infenoes; to mormain what im-
prementsum may be made thaws& in order to enlace the
stout 'Moloney combined with economy ; sad to report
thereon to her Msjestr's government." He had given notice
of his maks mese time previous, but had bean prevented
It an.
brirr.A. D. SEYMOUR rose to order. His motion stood
on the viper Wier that of the hon. sod gelimit member.
The SPEAKER mid the only question before the house
was that he shouldleavo the chair. The hem. and relish,
decor baring poemereion of the house was entitled to hoop it.
&r DE L. EVANS said when the new government
mow i.e. Alm a oommoeicated with the Secretary of State
Ist War on the subject of his modem. The right hon. genle-
Milin was .azioss to have it still further pw bet if he
did so it could sot tyres on this swim. %.tirtuld not,
however, detain the hones long, as he usderstrod the go-
vereabset Intended to went to the appointment of the cow-
mission. (Rise, host.) Gina Mfiregnire al °plaice existed

Mr. 1, lIHRBERT add leshed • ins bar of queetiona
to answer, and weoli with that of hi. right
hon. friend opposite (Mr. Aildide7). In much that bad
MOS from him he esedially canceirred. His attention had
been draws some time since to tha proportion paid by the
colonic* towards their defence, and it was impossible to con-
osin anything more cepricioaa or more unreasonable than
the difference between them. The government of the
mother country was bound to provide troops for their 4..
fence against foreign eggoimiort, because as the mother
country asserted her rigut to decide all questions of pesce
arid war, she was bound to protect them from those results ;
bet even' admitting that the colonies might be
Balled on to provide for a share in return fora
the advantage they d, rived from the union of • great Mate
and the protective given to their commerce, and the attection
to thole diplomatic effete., it wait entirely inlefensible to eek
this caner, to ply fee tromps to be employed as police.
Ragland pad tor plies cut of the local rates, and the troops
out of the howled sichimess. Prom a return turnishtd to
him he toned that with regard to the North American
colonise, Great Britain paid 441,6391., but the colonic it only
21,8111., the greater portion of which waspaid by Canada.
In Australis Groat Britain paid 258,0001., the
colonies 166,0001, the greater portion of which
came from Victoria. There wee an arrangenont
with that colony that she should p. 7 colonial allowance, and
give other advantages to four companies. Any number of
troops beyond that the should pay for entirely. One malt
wee they did not send pressing request. for ttoope ea from
other colonies, and the relations between the colony and the
mother country were on • moat estideeenry !eating. (Hear,
beer.) limbo Merliterramen Greet Britain paid 958,0001.,
the °Monica 30,0001. There was • distinction bets that these
were great tothiary pot.. In the West Indies Greet Britain
paid 430,0001, the colonies 8.0001. In the Postern ordeniee,
Ceylon and the Maintain., Groat Britain paid 289,00 W., and
the colonies 91,0001. At the Caps of Goad flope,Greet Britain
paid 835,0001, and the colony only 29.090/. He must say
this was the strongest case of all. Troops were demanded
more often than in away other colooy. Wish regard to the
Gorman Leg! st, be was sorry to say that, unlike him right
hen, friend, ha had heard mot: thing about it. He bad
been in communication with the Tremory in referee cc to •
large sum which moat be provided out of the votes to meet
toe charge for the German Login. (Hear, hear.) If there
was only one party to the contract it would heresy to arrange
the nuttier and lay down some general rule 'thick should
regulate the relations between the mother country and the
colonies to the matter and the proportion they shook, pay.
These thing. most be a matter of arrangement with each
iodonial government. From the distance of those govern-
ments, and the ree.stents which not unnaturally they threw
in the way of increming their floancial burthene, the rolution
of this quserlo• wee one in whintit coos time would =moot.
My per. With regast to the subject if the notional de-
letion, that had not mated the attention of the government.
A committee of officers had been appointed to make a minute
examination of the coast, and they had fulfilled their teak with
great skill. The boom should bear In mind that heviag re-
gard to the nature of the onset of this country it we. tumor.
sibla that every portion of it should be fortified. (Cheers.)
To elect batteries ail round the coast would cost a MID be-
yond calculation; and, even if mode, they would be worse
than umlers unless adequately manned. The attention of
the government must therefore be given to the defence, to the
first instance, of three porta and arsenals in which
were stowed the munitions of war width were the
means of reproducing our defences. It had bran said that
governmenis generally had sot considered this 'abject; but
he found, on the contrary, that it had received great 'Urea-
thin of late years. What the government now wowed to
do was to appoint a mixed oommiesion of naval men, military
men, end civilians, to whom the matter would be referred.
This commission was not to be appointed becalm the go-
. vernamot hail not confidence in the COMM/Mid] of offirets,
for the contrary was the fact, but because they were 1110X10‘14
to have the beet pomible advice on the minims which had
been prepared. Thom schemes would th, r-fore be referred
to the ootomision In order to report upon them, to rugged
Improvements, bet net to put out new theories in Both •
manner as to render what bad already teen dose melee.
The government took this course, for they felt that It would
be net:emery, if that house should be called upon to vote
large rum for tur national defence., that the public
confidence should be given to the schemes upon
which that money wee to be spent. He trusted, therefore,
that when In • few days the neon al the commissioners
should be made public, they should be such as to tonomand
the conftd.noe of the country. so that the government might
feel their hand. strengthened In what they might deem it
right to do for the wolf ire of the public in this important par-
ticular. (Rear, bear.)
Mr. MALI BURTON, as en Anglo-Amadeu, mmaidered
that Ganda wee quite capable of no own defence ; "but if
you withdraw your troops end your fleet," be said, "let us
have dna notice, end give am our independence."
Mr. HORBMAN improved his satisfaction at the assent
of the government to the sppointrnent of a commission, aid
offered suggestions sate Its constitution and the 'abject' of

inquiry.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said the government were quite
alive to the views indicated by Mr. Adderley, but the re-
narks of Mr. Heliburton showed that there was another aide
of the (101011•11 which deferred to be considered.
Laid EWE° observed that the object of Sir De Lacy
Evans was that the oomettiseion should consider the whole
qurstios of our national defences, naval and military, the
sneaker of men and ships, and our military organisation, not
merely foitiflostiour.
Lad H. VANE died from Lord Ekho as to the extent
or the inquiries of the cunmisaion.
Sir DE L. EVANS said his object wu that the wareis-
Man should take • comprehensive view of all manses mow
secz.d.fe for national dence.
PALMERSTON thought there would be no area-
tags in emending to the commission inquiries of the nature of
those to which refereene had just been made. In the drat
place it would greatly extend the time within which they
could make their report, and in annexe the commission would
be massaged by the nature of the inquiry which would be
gives to them. He hoped that his hon. and gallant triad
who bad made this motion would not persist in it after the
diecnielon which bad taken place. He must say that he
entertain. d grave objections to the proposal that the duties of
the 00111Mielt011 should he extereed, as 'negated by Mr.
Horerami, to en inquiry into what ought to be ow standing
military, naval, and militia torus. That was as inquiry of •
totally difireut character; sad is the eat place it was
not a fit subject tor en inquiry st all. An Jewelry into what
public works would be required, yes an inquiry into a
definite matter—those works once instituted would reseals,
and would always be means of defence. But en inquiry into
the number al men required for our internal and external de-
fences was not • matter to be arrived at with certainty. It
wee • thing varyleg trona year to year with the difterset
state of the emetineek sad hence the report of theca:maim
would, eves if toads, be of no avail for future me. Besid
this, the question was not one fit for inquiry by • commis-
sion. It was • matter which should from time to tines be
dealt with by the government on their own responsibility.
hem.) He hoped therefore that bin right hon. friend (Mr.
Horetrine) would be satisfied with knowing that the subject
had the attestant of the geverament, and would not further
pros the matter. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. AYRTON thought that the commission proposed by
Thwhekhoor
did be ere that there was any nocasion for it. What the
mbetieel.goonnvemawirmic"hanttthweryfdeoulliepossdid br°n°l4"thwast "thfarethtir "narrobjecilteht. Neither
gallant officer wanted wee an inquiry into the system gene-
rally, and how our defaces might be so arranged be time of
peace as to give the country • rational assurance easiest sur-
prise. The greet question war, what amount of army we
should have en fide country succesefully to repel invasion.
Eighty thousand men would be no um against
200,0d0; is abort, be believed that anythia
under s torte of 100,000 roes would be useless. What his
bee. and gallant friend wanted was an inquiry into the
whole pubject, especially with reheats to sa ettenemail ex-
penditure of the public m
, After as observation ho:lir. Hoseasit,
Motion aosofI•o4.
ORIENWICH HOSPITAL.

Me 0. NAPllitTrOi; m e.O enVzt-tioi-to the eteeareeiest
of Oressirioblicepital ; kis Aim woo Saslow that s didereat