The Express.
London, England, 1860-08-03 00:00:00

r 2

country 60,000,000/. sterling of taxes, being far more than
an equal population is called upon to pay in the
United States ; and that we Con go on with safety
to our institutious, or that the people can bear the strain of
that enormous pressure. (Herr, hear.) France may be our
enemy. Ido not believe she is. (Hear, hear.) There may
be enemies abroad, but I find nobody who can point them
out. I can, however, point to an enemy at home, and that
is this 4101001.1.1, this wicked policy, which espalie:preen to
minima t from the labour anal industry of the this
enormous, and ruinous sum from year
to year. (Cheers.) What is the result in every
other country ! If somebody had told the mi.
niter of Loilis XIV. that his extravagance would
end in ruin to France, be would be answered, ma I shall be
answered, that the country is rich enough, the glary of
Tesoro ie worth more than your sordid considenitions of
pounds, shillings, and pence. France mud keep • great
p.,ition in Eun.pe ; there is no burden which France will
not ...lily by its elasticity reins itself under and support.
Rut have we net seen his family exiled, the aristocracy ofder!
e.autry overthrown, and another branch of his family
b un.hott from the iroos. Hays we not seen hal
country reduced to ruin and anarchy ? stud if we
mole the same course, ham not hiskwy written the mowlessou for other couutrise as for Frame? There is DO path
au easy, so slippery as that we are now following, if year
after year these enormous expenses continue, until the time
will roam when some voice throughout the country will
ask who has deceived them, and then will have to pay
the penalty which all men in authority must pay when
they have not discharged the duties which belong to their
station. It is because I believe that this cours of policy
will lead to these results that I oppose with all my heart
the rewalutice of the noble I. and in doing so I feel the
strongest conviction in my conscience that I am doing what
is Mot not more for the people of whom I am one, than to
the monarchy under which I live. (Great cheering.)
Mr. NEWDEG.tTE said the inference from the whole
spee,h of Mr. Bright was, that he was jealous
of England standing in a position of independence
towards France, sod wished to excite the feel•
hogs of the people against the government for
the course they were DOW pursniog. He bad talked of our
most eminent military authorities as a collection of
lunatics. His object either was to vex and delude the
public or to prevent
.this country from mournind • position
of indepeoleme.
Sir F. ta ILLMMIII said there was reason to believe that
morn' of the work% proposed were not necessory. The total
cost of them works would cot be confloed to the mere ow
abortion, but would involve • large annual expenditare far
ironing. No we had been made nut for any of the had
works, except pettier. at Portsmouth.
Lord It. MONTAGU said that the extracts from letter
read by the hon. member for Birmingham really proved
n-thiniz. Nor did his sneers at ministers and loot.. Pro-
hahlv the boo. menalyr, if he had the chases of becoming
toe himself, would mot sneer at either lords nr
(.1 la%(h.) The reeurreure of panics proved that we were
sot wife, and even if an invasion were not possible, the go-
ys :anent ought to take the mime they ouw propeeril. On
the question of probability of Menai." the goveniineut were
certainly better authorities than the boo. member for Bit,
mingham
Mr. WHITE admitted the necessity of preserving our
dockyards and aresea/a from sudden attacks, but suggested,
heft. they committed themselves to this vast expense,
they ought to bare • preliminary impure as to what pro-
;airtime of the national property deposited in those
aniemile and dockyards ought to be kept near the
cows. All experieoce showed that where • pro-
per 'feeling animated the people. they were out
mean antagonist& in ease of invasion, although they were out
enrolled in the regular army. Let them remember whet
bad been oleos by volunteers in Switzerland and
In America, and doubt not that a
home,
Die A never was so eons as when lighting for tfatet
and their institution.. The large sums that had
been extirpated in building forts ou the south rout were
regmled by the people of that district as so much money
wasted, and he Islieved the present proposal was an error
In the mme direction, but on a much Lager scale. (Hess,
bear.)__

sat'. NAPIER said, when he entered parliament in 1841
he het but just returned from the Mediterranean, where be
b.: lan opportunity of seeing a very fine French fleet. That
fleet presented a wonderful change to what he had been
accustomed to witness of the state of the French navy.
The ships were well manned raid well officered, and ia
every respect eficient. He could not help contrasting
with that fleet the British fleet in which he was serving, and
he found it inferior in numbers, inferior in size, and
inferior in manning ; and he felt that should the two come
into collision, we should not be so certain as we had
liven in times past of maintaining our superiority. He
pointed this out to the Admiralty when be came horse.
Tire galLiet complained of the reduction of the Asst
in the Mediterranean, and asserted that our naval fortis
within the last twenty years Lad fragrantly been in such a
state that it would have been unable to resist • well-organ-
ised attack from the fleet of France. An impression pre-
vailed abroad that the introduction of steam into the
navy rendered • blockade impossible, but his own opinion
was that it rendered it far more perfeet, and that there
never had been such a thing as an effective blockade until
the present moment. With the fine ships we now possessed
It would be very easy tobleckadethe ports of France and pre-
vent an invasion ; and under such tin:unwraps:es he was at
a loot to imagine why parliament should for a
moment entertain a proposal for 'operating such enormous
sums upon fortifitatices. (Hear, hear.) It wag perfectly
right to fortify our sea ports gradually, but to depend upon
say fortifications that could be erectesl for our security from
Invasion was simply aleurd. The experience of the govern-
meet in the erection of fortifications was not of so sathise.
tory a charrater as to justify • further experiment At
Portsmouth they erected forts to defend the port, and.they
were then obliged to fortify Portedown-hill in order to de-
fend the forts. (Hear, bear.) Then again with regard to
Dover. The fortification of Dover was a whim of the Duke
of Wellingtoo, and every man of common a nee woukl say
that the mooey which had been e pe no boo I was entirely dire en
away. No o one would delay that the late N orioles on co ontemplated
the invasiou of this country. He assembled at Boulogne
shout .1,000 vessels of various descript and between
2uo,uno and 300.000 men, and all he wanted to reader his
s hem: sirs-redo' was 4$ 110Url. command of the chancel.
That command he never obtained, and so Irani as our fleet
was maintained in a proper state if of efficiency it never would
be obtained. Without a naval force to protect them such
fortifications as those which the uolde lord at the heed of
the government proposed would he wholly tundras ; for
stronger works were erected by Russia at Sweaborg, arid yet
they were inadequate to resist • naval attack, being utterly
destroyed without the lone of a man on the part of the
attacking fleet. If our ships were properly manned all
the talk about fortifications might be set aside. What
was wanted was not fortifications but such au increase in
the numbers of our ships of war as would enable ea to re.
tain our position as mistress of the seas.
Mr. CORRY saki he entirely approved of the policy of
the government, and that for the very reason that in the
event of danger we must mainly rely upon our fleet.
(Hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE complained that the house was not
asked to carry out the report of the Defence Commission
six mouths ago. If the aspect el again made the proposed
defences essentially necessary. why was only a part of the
plan to be conks) out. and why were 004 the whole of the
forsifintices completed at once? He could not reconcile
the present proceeding with the treaty with France, for
we were arming to keep out our friends and cus-
tomers. He denied that the present state of the army
or navy is France justioirl the Teo eh of Lord Palmerston
in intrsittrinsj this proposition. The None arguments were
need on Fiance with regard to the armaments of this
country as were used here with regard to the armed strength
of Fracas.. He did not object to strengthening the se-abussol,
but to the proposition of useless, land fortifications. He
also objeeterl to the composition of the commerioo, gees.
tinned its compettucy, and urged that they had not taken
sufficient evidence.

Mr. 1101:SMAN &teak.] the coon* taken by the
government in appointing the Defence Commission in fol.
tinient of a pledge to the how, approved of its coolpo.
ilium, and concurred in its reaurnmendetuma. Ife Hired the
adopting of the resolution, and only regretted that at did
not qo further towards the rapid and immediate completion
114 the work..

Sir F. &WITH said he was prepared to show the house
that nalee. prvriios were made for • large increase of the
land force, they' would sot lime the number of men Deers-
- to man the works and to supply an army in the field.
With reprd to the fortifications at Portsmouth, u an en-
pacer, Le was afraid that the scheme was aot the best that
could be devised ; sad he warned the government against
the impoliey of forming hoes which they would be enable to
thfrisl, and whicl-.., in the event of capture by ea enemy,
wssuld hem a strong arm 41 Attack. ith regard to the
fortilk-atiou of Loudon, he believed that any project for the
defebee of the metropolis. by fortiflestioas was a perfect
absurdity, aol he was glad that the government slid Dot
coritermlate any expenditwe of money for so futile an oh-
job. Whvt was really required was 'inefficient array lathe
field ; awl he believed that such an army, composed of men
who I's! a stake in the material prosperity 44 the country,
was prorated Sy the volunteer movement. He trusted that
Portsdownhill works would be omitted from the estimate,
that the fortifkution of Loolon would not he attempted,
mot that 1.110. Artl,o 0.1.,1 M.,111.1 10 taken to keep up
an
efficient army in the held. (11.,,r, herr. I
Lord P.tLIIKILITI/N-- Flefore the diserounn clues I am
minims to make a few minas moo the statements which
gi‘ee been auk by Yahoos bssn isseiolsers in the course of
rbe debate. Mr I . fc. sal Iselsial :tie. the nierober for
Brutal (Mr. Berkelev Las been exceedingly eloquent in
des...tarring the ina • gnigh.h notion of fortiticatious but if I
r,eollect rightly whirs, we have objected to the ballot es un-
Fil;aish Ise hair commenter.' stnaL;ly quo the low ground
is wc love takes. (Laughter.) Now, I Yuma see what there un•English in fortification.. At one time th.
country ;au studded with fortress..., and every muter resi•
sews was fortitiol. I amp .se h... (read
has
heard of Berkeley Coale (laught,.,.,_.hich
I believe
eras at nee tins. • place .4 streactli. le poi.l
of Let, the shot* of Earthed, acotlsuwl, mesain,Lum ja full of placer which at • tome .4 la.
trend &sushi were fortified &galore attack. (Hear,
bun 1 Now, our danger is ant from within, but hue with.
out ; and all we ask is that the prim:ride that was formerly
4.0,41 for our security within shall be appried for our even.
rite from attack (rum alreed. (Hear, hear.) la point .4
fast, tic advantage of fortification 103 initial that the
6 sea. member Ur Brighton. when he informed the house
%first if he had intended to take port in the .!elate he wwdd
have r.ine Iftlfr 100101.011, eaturally raid test h. will
have fortified hinusell. (Laughter.) I think the hoe.

member lamented or intimated that it would be a Uttar
arrangement if our dockyards ware goad in a more Wend
situation. (Laughter.)

- -
Mr. WHITE said the noble lord's joke was a very good
sea, but some* remark bad been made.
Lord PALMERSTON—The hon. member for Liskeani
certainly suggested that the store for naval timber should be
more inland, ('' Hear, hear," from Mr. Osborne.) I think
the argammta of my bon. friend who began the debate are
not likely to sway the decision of the -house. The ben
member (or Birmingham was ecceedingly elorment in sum
porting the motion of my hon. friend, but, so far as I could
collect the course of the argument of the hon. member, he
dwelt more upon • variety of schemes which we have not
adopted them he endeavoured to show that the plan we have
adopted was one undeserving the attention of the holm.
Theban. member enumerated a great number of the schemes,
which be preesemed elated and totally fiat for adoption.
I perfectly agreewith him in his criticism, but it so happens
that the plans to which he has referred have nothing to do
with the proposal of the government. The hon. member
denounces as insane all those who differ from him in wi-
nker, and in so doing he reminds me of the anecdote of •
man who had • difference with the rest of the world. He
thought them all mad, and they voted him med, and es
there happened to be a majority spinet him they shut him
up. (laughter.) The hon. member for Birmingham will,
I trust, find himself in regard to this vote in • similar
situation. (Laughter.) He thinks everybody wrong ex-
cept himself--that the whole nation had gone wild on
the subject—and I trust the result well be that
the majority will be as great against him as
it was against the unfortunate individual to whom
I have just referred. (Laughter.) It has been said that it
is wrong to attempt to fortify, and some allusion has been
male to the fortifications of Paris. Now, the fortifications
of Kris are not undeserving of consideration, because I
believe that if therm fortifications had existed in
11414 or lels Paris would not have been so sly oc-
cupied ea it was. (Hear, hear.) It is very true that the
Emperor Napoleon was deprived of the co-operation of a
large body of troops he had left behind him indifferent po-
sitions, but that is the very mason why the fortification of
Paris would have placed him in • better posi-
tion. There was a National Guard belonging to
the city, and with fortificatioes • eland might have
I been made sufficient to have enabled new troops to have
arrived. (Hear, hear.) 117 bon. friend the member for
Liskesal complain, of say attempt to defend the entire
coot or Loudon by mean of fortifications. Our proposal
is not to defend the entire coast, but to protect certain
pointed great importance, which form the cradles of our
navy, and without which we should lose our maritime
power—a power which everybody who has spoken tonight
admits to be essential as our first line of defence. (Hear,
bear.) My boa. and gallant friend the member for South-
wark (Sir C. Napier) says, "Dive me a fle t, doable it or
treble it, and I will undertake that no enemy shall lead." I
am not surprised that my hon. friend should deal lightly with
fortifications, inasmuch as be has • way of his own in deal-
ing with fortifications. A military friend of mine once met
my hon. and gallant friend on the northern frontier of Por-
tugal. lie was mounted on a mule, and was followed by •
marine with • musket on each shoulder, looking very much
like Robinson Crum". (Laughter.) He stripped my military
friend, and said," You are • military man - tell me how you
would take • fannies." My hissed began to explain how to
make breaches and zispags, and so on, when the gallant
admiral interrupted him with, " That's all very
well for you, but it won t do for me. 1
sin going to take the fortress of Valencia, but
I mean to take it with • letter." (Laughter.) And the
gallant admiral kept his word. He wrote • letter to the
governor, »Il* lam that if he did not surrender at dis-
cretion he would make hint do so, and the fame of the gal-
lant admiral was so great that the governor surrendered.
ter.) Now, fortifications would euable an inferior
11041:11:0 bold out for • certain time against • superior force,
and time in war is • gnat deal, and sometimes everything.
What we want to do is to protect our dockyards and certain
other important points from being taken by • coup de main.
The hon. member for Litheard has objected to the fortifi-
' cation of l',rrtalown Hill. Well, that a a matter for con-
sideration, but it is an unquestionable fact that with the
modern improvements in artillery, whoever had possession
• Portedown Hill would have no difficulty whatever in de-
etroving the royal dockyards. I deny again that these works
would involve any greet increase to the army in tune of
peace, whilst they would effect a considerable saving in the
matter of barracks, and in war time you would have the
militia and other auxiliaries, which would give you means of
manning the I iff erent works. Thegallant offiriersays you minuet
make glowers • month, and I know then isminerally an
impression amongst military men that it lakes • long time
to make a soldier. But we have seen that the contrary has
been the case with the militia and the volunteers, and I
know one instance, that of the Devonshire artillery, which
was equal to the practice of the line. Beside., there are
but two gunners wanted for each gun. The rest ere all
handspike men, and have nothing to do with the direction
of the piece. You must not, therefore, multiply the
number of gunners at the same rate as the guns. I say,
then, that is peace these work. will not require an increasedarmy, and that in war they rosy be filled with troops of •
less trained description, who will
_be perfectly competent to
defend them. I say that if you had not these works, and
having dockyards; to defend, you would be obliged to
bare • larger number of men, and there is this great differ-
ence between laying the money out in works and laying
it out on men, that if like Lycurgus and the Spartans you
call for men, not stone walls, and maintaiu these
men for • whole year, they will be no use the following
year unless you still maintain the same number at the same
expense, whereas if you lay it out in works, you are so
moth stronger by all the money. you lay out. I haze been
accused of varying my opinion in this matter. I deny that
I have date so, and assert that on the contrary I have
laboured for ten years in furtherance of the object which we
are discussing to-nigh.. But that is no proof that we do
not hops for improved friendly relations with Farce
through the means of the commercial treaty. Why this
couunission was appointed twelve months ago, long before
the commercial treaty was proposed, and therefore totally
unconnected with it ; and although we trust that the treaty
may lead to • continuance of more friendly relations be-
tween the two countries, that forms no ground, in our
opinion, for abandoning plans which on mete! deliberation
we lielieved to be necessary. I hope and trust that the
present peaceful relatono between France and England
may remain uninterrupted; but I am convinced—and ilia
is coninion sense, independent of military or naval
kn.% ledge --that the only way to secure yourself against
attack is always to be ready to defend yourself, and that
when you are strong enough for that purpose you are mat
likely to remain at peace with foreign nations. On the.*
grounds I claim the vote of the hon. member for Birming-
bani, for if anything would be more than another likely to
endanger the continuance of peace, it would be that •
country wealthy like England should remain exposed
to the risk of attack or assault without having any
means of repelling the attack or resenting the insult.
The country looks to us to do our duty, and for that we
have only to look at the great force which has been enrolled
as volunteers. The country desires that parliament should
act in unison with that feeling which the people have dis-
played. To reject • motion which will at a mode-ate ex-
pense lay the foul:elation for making a great accession to
our means of defence will be a misfortune which I hope
will not happen. (Cheers, and erase, " Divide.")
Sir M. PEW tone to speak, but was met with so much
interruption that his first sentences did not reachthe gallery.
He was understood to say that he felt the committee
were not in a position to deal with this question on the
pound that they had not sufficient information before them.
TIN report which had been presented to the hokum would on
• careful perusal show that it did not touch the question in
all its bearings, and consequently the committee would
not be justified in coining to a conclusion at present. He
objected to the land defences which were recommended in
the report. (Hese) If the committee were to ask hint for
profs and instances he would point to the siege of Sebastopol.
The committee would recollect that when the united armies
approached that great fortress the south side was unpro-
tected, and be would ask whether they did not see earth.
works carried out which kept the united strength of England
and France at bay for some months. He would ask the
committee to consider that it would be an impossibility to
land an invading army, sad that it should march to Lotelon
without the mane means being taken of defending them-
selves. Englishmen would show the same practical mode
of defending thernaelves as the Russians did at Sebes-
Lepel, and there would be plenty of time to carry
out earthwork". He would ask whether the government
were justified in coming to the house and asking for this
vote, which in case of danger would be obtained at any
moment. (Lou! cries of " Divide," and great interruption.)
They were spending lj million of money in sheathing vessels
of war, and they were altering the artillery of the country,
and if them fortifications were proceeded with, other altera-
tions must take place. The government were not justified
in proposing this enormous expenditure without givi „ie. fur-
ther time for consideration, and he felt that they had not
suMcieut time. (Load cries of "Divide, divide.") He
would not attempt to go into other questions, because be
saw the impatience of the committee to come to it division.
But he would again say that he felt the importance of the
subject, and that the government were not justified in
hurrying it on. He ghould be compelled to vote against the
motion. (Divide, divide.)
The committee then divided on the amendment, and the
numbers were :
For the resolution 3:14
For the amendment :V.I-220
The resolution was again put from the chair, when
Mr. BRIGHT suggested certain modifications of the
scheme.

Lfird PALMER TON made a few remarks in reply.
Mr. MONSELL moved as an ►mendment to add to the
rainiution„ "That, in the absence of artiller, and engineer-
ing information, it is Dot expedient to incur any °renew-
dinary expenditure in constructing permanent work. ►t
PortAdown

Mr. S. HERBERT could ant assent to the amendment,
and after a short discuseimi, extending to the whole scheme,
the committee again divided, when this amendment was
aspitived hJ 16:1 to: 7.
Farther explanations were asked by Mr. Bawer and Sir
H. Wittoroisr, sod given he Lord .PA LIALKATON.
The resolution was infinitely agreed to, and ordered to
Le reported.
Lord PALMERSTON intimated—Wald loci cries of
"Ob, "I
—that the Civil Servios Estimates would be
taken at the morniii4 pitting this day.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION, kc., BILL.
This biR was read • third time and pared.
REFRESHMENT HoCitEst AND WINE LICENSES
( I RELAN DI BILL
The house then went into committee an Rik hill.

FRI

TIIE EXPPS SS,