The Express.
London, England, 1860-04-20 00:00:00

ROUSE OF LORD& —TwintsoAT, Arum 19.
The Low) Camtezu.os took his pest on the woolsack
K 6 o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Scottish Dniinsie;u7dlmprovement Company Bill,
and the Manchester and Buxton Road Bill, were road a
second time.

NAVAL RESERVFA.
Lord LYNDHURST gave notice that in a few days he
should call the attention of his noble friend at the bead of
the Admiralty to the state of the naval reserves.
MARRIAGES (EXTRA PAROCHIAL PLACES) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
THE CONSTITUENCIES UNDER THE NEW

--
ItEFOaM BILL
The Earl of EGLINTON mid that before the motion of
his bon. friend opposite (Earl Grey) with respect to the
lgoverensent Redone Bill was brought on, he begged t°
the noble lord's attention to the propriety of including
Scotland and Ireland as well asEnglend and Wales, as • sub-
ject to be laid before the proposed committee.
Earl GREY them rose to move that a select committee be
pointed to ittire what would be the probable increase of
e°umberof rmors in the counties and boroughs of England
and Wales from a reduction of the franchise, and whether
any and what change was likely to be made in the character
of the constituencies by such increase, and also to inquire
what difference thete was between large and small coo sti-
tuencies in respect of the proportion of the registered elector%
who usually voted in contested elections, and into
the causes of any such difference which might be found to
exist, likewise into the means by which elections in very
large constitnencies were practically determined, and into
the expense incurred in conducting them. The noble earl
observed that it was very doubtful that the Reform Bill
would ever come before their lordships in any form, and it
therefore became desirable to obtain such information as
might enable them to form correct conclusions as to a future
measure. It was further desirable to ascertain what would
be the result of the proposition of Lord J. Russel—the
effect of creating large constituencies, and the man-
ner in which overgrown boroughs had exercised
their privilege. He commented on the alma.,
corruption, and immorality which commonly prevailed in
the large boroughcand denied that the labouring classes wen
really unrepresented under the present system. He did not
my that the existing electoral system was perfect, but ho
did consider that. a more searching and chipseedonate in-
quiry stoild be ta:.de into the coneoquences of the change
than it woe likely to receive in the course of the debate.
Unless all parties concurred in framing a measure
founded on wisdom and experience, they were in danger of
the overthrow of the balance of parties,: and of the estab-
lishment of au unbridled democracy. He warned the house
of the consequence-I of adopting the representative system,
which had worked so ill in the United States, and of its
duty to refuse its sanction to any measure which it did not
believe, in es deli'.erate judgment,conducive to the further
interests of the country.
The Duke of ARGYLL would not oppose the motion.
on the understanding that it would not interpose needles.,
delay iu the discussion of the Reform Bill. He understood
the object of the bill to be the verification of the returns on
which the Reform Bill was founded. Those returns, when-
ever tested, had been found to be perfectly accurate. After
taunting Earl Grey with his connexion with the cabinet of
1852, and its reform proposals, he urged the necessity of is
settlement of the question. for which no more opportune
time could he found than the present. The noble lord inti-
mated that it was not their intention to oppose the principle
of the government bill, so that the second reading of the
measure might be considered as having been agreed to.
Under these circumstances it was not too much to expect
that there might be that union of parties which wuuld
lead to a settlement of this important question in the pre-
sent session of parliament. He could not avoid pointing
out the danger to the country from further delay in settling
this question. Delay might prove dangerous to the con-
stitution and injurious to the character of their public men,
whose sincerity was already suspected. Contrasts: were
drawn in every newspaper between the professions of gen-
tlemen before they were elected and the language which
they held in the House of Commons. He saw uo prospect
of a better time for settling this question than the,pre-
, sent. Was it nut better to settle this question in
a time of peace and calm, when they were free
from any undue external pressure, than when the minds of
men were in a state of agitation and excitement? Now
that they had a measure which, in its main features, did
not differ much from the bill of the late government, he
hoped there would be a sufficient degree of public spirit,
!and such an aheenee of acrimony and party spirit, as would
induce a majority of both houses, if they could not consent
to the measure of the government in the precise form in
which it stood, at leant to settle what was to be the amount
of the borough and county franchise. (Hear, hear.)
Lord VIVIAN said he did not rem to &direr the house
on this question, but, as reference had been made to a
letter which he had received, he begged to say that the
person who wrote that letter was a person on whose ability
and accuracy he could rely. His statement was, that in
the borough in Cornwall referred to the number of electors
would be double that which was given in the minted re-
port. (Hear.) Under these circumstances he thought that
the question should be referred to a committee.
- The Earl of DERBY said he could not but be somewhat
apprehensive, from the speech of the noble duke, who de-
precated all political acninony in dealing with this ques-
tion, that he said the members of her Majesty's government
were not yet sufficiently impressed with the importance of
the gumtree, and that the noble duke, more especially art
appeared from the speech with which be had favoured 'the
house, and his reference to the conduct of former minister++,
was less desirous of coming to a satisfactory settlement of
this question than of keeping alive the spirit of party agita-
tion, and seeking to throw upon his political opponents that
which he felt to be the invidiousness of the task which,
according to him, it appeared that her Majesty's present go-
vestment had reluctantly taken into their hands. (Hear,
hear.) The noble duke had favoured the house with some
historical reminiscences. He certainly could go somewhat
further back than the noble duke ; but there were some in
which the noble duke had some advantage over him, for the
noble duke referred to conversations and inducements held
out to the government to undertake the Reform Bill of
which he (Earl of Derby) had no knowledge.
The Duke of ARGYLL sail lie referred to what took
plarm when Lord J. Russell introduced the Reform Bill of
1852.

The Earl of DERBY—In what period of 1852?
The Duke of ARGYLL said he believed the first Reform
Bill of Lord J. Russell was introduced in February, 1852.
The Earl of DERBY said the noble dupe had certainly
surprised the house by one fact, namely, that Lord John
Russell, of all men in the world, was extremely unwilling
to deal with this question of parliamentary reform
—(laughter)--send that to the best of his power he resisted
the reduction of the county franchise to 101.—that he was
opposed to the measures which bad subsequently been
pro xand that the fact was that Lord J. Russell wax
ually but reluctantly the victim of circumstances, and osed,
ed at the wheels of a triumphant parliamentary ma-
jority to sanction measures which were against his own de-
sire. The noble lord, it appeared, was as much opposed to
the principle of further reform as perhaps they should find
the noble duke one day opposed to the principle of univer-
masuffnigeand vote by ballot, which he now so much disliked,
but which he intimated were not so bad as they seemed.
But the noble duke thought fit to allude to the measure of
the late government, and the terms and conditions on which
that bill was introduced. Little as he desired to follow the
noble duke into a discussion of that measure, he was tot
unwilling to meet the noble duke upon that question if
forced upon him, and to state the course they took for an
' honourable settlement of it. The noble duke stated, but
, not quite correctly, that on his first entering into office he
pledged himself to introduce a measure of parliameutare
reform. The fact was that lie carefully guarded himself
lagainst giving any such pledge. He did pledge himself that
during the recess her Majesty's government would devote
I their attention to a consideration of the question, with a
hope that if there was a public feeling such as they
trusted there was at that time, they should be able
Ito submits measure which, if it did not satisfy all parties.
would meet with the enaction and support of moderate men
'of all parties. Ho stated at that time that he wan induced
to take that emirs', not from any sense or conviction in
his own mind that any muctic-il proposition for altering the
existing state of the representation was actually card for,
but that inasmuch as succes.ive minister. had pledge./
the honour of the Crown—had pledged the Crown
iin person to such a measure -he accepted the reepon-
te.thseay
vnoligh.tibetourviet.
thlea
' deem, though without any wise of its intrinsic re-comity, the
! it hai I ...,1 tpyi of
ot flat at.
it tr.!!
ece.
a;
nda and,
generosity, trusting
pledge which he honestly gave. lie was glad tbe noble duke op-
wake and hi. colleagues. were willing to concede the inquiry
proposed by his noble friend (Earl Grey), although the con-
COMBIOTI was made under some pressure. (The Duke of
ARGYLL: No pressure whatever.) Well, then, under no
pressure ; but the noble duke conceded it upon the under-
standing that it wan not to cause any delay in the progress
of the government measure. If the noble duke
meant to say that, whatever progress wan made
in the committee, legislation upon the subject
should go on nevertheless, then he (the Earl of Derby)
thought the government were putting themselves into a po-
sition which he could not cemprehend. Either they must
' consider this inquiry altogether unneeemary to satisfy the
mind of parliament, and therefore they ought to have re-
fused it as uncalled for, or they thought it useful for the
purpose of determining whether the present measure was
one which ought to receive the sanction of parliament, and
consequently should act upon it. (Hear, hear.) They were
*eked to investigate • page and important subject, of which
the numerical question was the least important, before ii
committee of noble peers, for the purpose of ascertaining
whether the measure was one which could be safely and ju-
diciously adopted by parliament. (Hear, hear.) He
earnestly hoped that not only those in their lord-
ships' bonne, but also hon. member,. in the Neilsen( Common*,
would take full time) to deliberate on the Lets awl date
which would be placed before then,. Even if a session or
two sessions were loot, he thought that loss of time would
he adequately satisfied by the knowledge that they were
proeceding on sound data and making thenvelves thoroughly
aware of the consequences of the important alteration they
were making. He hoped the inquiries of this committee
would tend to throw light upon a subject which wry., at
present in great darkness, and enable their lordahips to
judge how far they might safely adopt • proposal which
hei been hastily and imperfeetly laid before parliament.
He should be sorry if that house should be uniier the ne-