The Express.
London, England, 1860-05-08 00:00:00

)bi: iiii.

Mr. WALTER celled attention to a correspondence be-
tween Mr. Harman and himself, arising out of • charge
made by Mr. Roseman, who had intimated his intention of
bringing it before the home, that, in a speech made by Mr.
Walter in the house on the previous Monday, he had used
language which, taken in conjunction with an article in the
Tines, conveyed an imputation upon the character of the
house. Mr. Norman having, however, abandoned his in-
tention of inviting the attention of the house to the matter
further correspondence ensued, and Mr. Walter complained
of Mr. Minnow having connected his speech with ar-
ticle in the Tints. He was, it was true, greatly interested
in the prosperity of the notes, but be was in no way cos-
meted with it in an editorial capacity, and he warmly de-
preeMed the allusions made in that house to articles in
newspaper, as derogatory to the dignity of parliament and
jejunum to the tone and character of their debates.
Mr. BOWMAN, after explaining the reasons which pre-
vented hint from bringing forward the subject on Thurs-
day, entered into • detailed statement reepecting the
circumstances referred to. On entering the house on Nas-
daq last he was informed that • compromise bad been
entered into with respect to the Reform Bill, on the basis
of a M 1 franchise in counties, and Si. franchise in towns,
and a condition that there should be no dissolution for
two years. Thin last saggertion bad been made by
Mr. Walter in his place, sad by the Times in a leading
article, which article further contained a violent attack on
himself. This was a promediug, in hie opinion, unworthy
of &member of the legieLtuss,enil which he felt bound to bring
before the notice of the House of Commons. He proceeded
to comment at length on the connexion of Mr. Walter with
the Tines, and reed letters from himself to Mr. Walter,
containing lengthened attacks upon that journal, and noti-
cing, amongst other things, the personal attraction exer-
cised by Lord Palmerston over the editor and the anomalous
position of Mr. Lows on the Treasury bench. He attacked
the 'monied irresponsibility of the press ; admitting that
it should be independent, but denying that it ought to be
irresponsible. He proceeded to comment on Mr. 'Walter's
position with regard to the Tines, and the secret agency
which be employed in writing the articles of that journal.
Mr. Bright, whom Mr. Walter had assailed for mooches
made by him out of doors, had at least spoken openly, and
on his own responsibility.
Lord PALMERSTON said—l hope this discussion will
end where ft now stands—(hear, beer)—and that it will
not lead to say result greater than the muse from which it
appears to have originated. I should not hare presented
myself to the home were it not for the mention which my
right hon. friendlies made of my name in connexion with
Mr. Delano. In the first place my right hon. friend has
recorded that fora certain period of time, now I am happy
to say long gone by, I sustained very bitter attacks in the
columns of the Tints. It is perfectly true that during a
portion of my public life I was, in regard to the news-
paper press, one of the best abused men in England.
I submitted with patience to those attacks—(hear amid
laregliter);—l trusted that my public cooduct would be an
Answer, sooner or later, to those attacks. (Hear.) It never
oecurred to me to rise in my place in this bowie to complain
of the attacks which were so bitterly made upon. me.
(Hear, hear.) Whether my example in that respect ii one
that should be followed, or whether those who have taken
• different course acted more proppedy than I did, I cannot
my. My right hon. friend had stated, in his letter, that be
did not know whet the influences were which Mr. Delano,
one of the editors or managers of the Tines, attributed to
ins If by that he implies that arty wish or inflame
of mine has been exercised over the line of conduct
of the proprietors of the Times, I can only say with Mrs.
Malaprop that I should be glad to plead to that soft im-
psechnieet—(bsughterr)—if such insinuations were redly
founded on feet. If there are any influences which have
led Mr. Deism to me they are the influences of society.
(Hear, hoer.) My rat hon. friend has himself Misted in
his glowing address that the contributors to the press are
the favourites and ornaments of every society into which
they enter. He is perfectly right in that expres-
sion. They are 'morally men, as he states, of great
information and great attainments, sod therefore they are
men whose society must be agreeable to those with whom
they associate. (Hear.) My connexion with Mr. Dams
is of that character exactly. I have had the pleasure of
meeting with Mr. Delano frequently in society, and he has
done me the honour of meeting society occasionally leader
my roof. (ILear, bear.) That society is composed of per-
lm:ins of all politics (hear, beer)—and engaged in all pur-
suits. I feel very proud when persons come without under.
taking any other engagement than that which Mr. Deis«
does so well—e( always making themselves very warble.
(Laughter.) I have hod the honour, and I esteem it such,

Mr. AYRTON rose to move the following amendment:—
" Thqt it is inexpedient to impose • new tax on houses for
the see of unintozicatin refreshments • and to promote
the consumption of intoxicating drink by giving increased
facilities for retailing the same, and by diminishing the
coating now exercised by justices of the peace over homes
kept fee Mel purpose." lks le* eidesaellie-
measure was to bring under the supervisice of the excise
by a system of licensing, all houses used for providing food
or refreshment for the people—not leaving the law as it at
present stood, but extending it for the first time to houses
which sold unintoxicating drinks, and drinks of the most
harmless character. The second object of the bill was
that some of those houses, under certain wadi-
tams, were to obtain licensee from the excise for the sale
of wine without first obtaining the sanction of justices
of the peace as now by law they were bound to do. The
third object of the bill was to diminish the duty paid by
wholesale dealers in wine. The grounds u which his
oppositie, to this measure rested were totally different to
those which were so pertinaciously attributed to him, not
within that house, but without its walls. No one who
knew him would imagine that he objected to this measure
in the interest of any clue of publicans, for he had long
taken an active part in the efforts made by others
to repress intemperance within the borough which he
rispromisted. The first thing they bad to consider
was, that this measure proposed to place. a tax
upon those who were engaged in preparing food
for the people ; and he could not but express his astonish.
meat that after all the efforts which had been made for
years past in the direction of cheapening the food of the
people, they should.now have to discuss for the fast time
the teemsupon which the sale of food was to he selected
pe a special object to contribute to the funds of the Exche-
quer. He also objected to the measure exempting all the
small towns and country districts from the operation of the
proposed bill. He further objected to the imposition of
this tax, on the ground that it appeared to him if they
were to begin • system of levying taxes upon shops they
must be prepared to levy it upon • principle of
strict justice, and must make it a graduated
tax, so as to make it equal upon every shopkeeper, as far as
they had the means of fixing that opulity. As to
the proposal of facilitating the sale of wine by granting
licenses to all persons styling themselves putrycooks or
dining-house keepers, that appeared to him to be the most
important brunch of the question ; sad he hoped the house
would not entertain that question—a question of each great
importune--without being satialled thatit would really con-
tribute to those objects for which it was said to have been
introduosd. He Doted the right hon.Sl
memos: would
abide by the statement he had made to • , thatbe
regarded the question as one of morality, than by that
which he made in proposing the second reading of the bill,
namely, that he regarded the measure as necessary in a
financial point of view, and that he expected hon. members
who supported his general scheme of anomie to support the
bill. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman was pre-
pared to allow the question to be discussed and decided
purely upon its intrinsic merits as a question of morality,
and wholly apart from any question of finance.
The sale of intoxicating liquors was not in it-
self • crime, but its regulation should always be kept
under the strong hand of the law, and therefore be homed
that the right hon. gentleman would not permit himself to
act under the delusion that by decreasing the facilities for
intemperance he was fostering the sobriety of the country.

Mr. LIDDELL objected to this bill, because he consi-
dered it to have been especially constructed for the ennui.
raiment of drinking.
Mr. BALOMONS supported the second reading. The bill
contained many errors, and rather than that it should pass
in its present shape, he would vote against the second
reading ; but he believed it was capable of amendment in
committee. So far as the bill provided facilities for the
sale of wine to those who wanted it, it was a good measure.
In the City of London atheist every pastry-
cook who desired a license from the magistrates
could get one ; the only condition imposed being an ho-
nourable understanding that he would not open on Sundays,
nor after eight o'clock at night on other days, nor convert
his house into a gin-shop. Yet in no part of England did
so much sobriety and good order prevail as in the City of
London. The most objectionable part of the hill was that
rendering it necessary for every house for the sale of re-
freshments to have a license. (Hear, hear.) It certainly
senned monstrous to require a baker, who sold a few buns
or biscuits over his counter, to take out a license, and he
could not help looking upon such a provision as an interfer-
ence with the freedom of trade. (Hear, hear.) He was
for limiting rather than extending the hours in
the evening to which these new refreshment houses
might keep open, and ho would fix it at nine
in winter and ten in summer. But with regard to
placing them under the supervision of the police, he would
ask boa. members how they would like, while they MOD
regaling themselves at Gunter's, in Belgravia, or Farnham*
in Spring.prdens, to see a policeman come in. (Hear, hear.)
Believing, however, that the bill ight in committee be
made sot only unobjectionable but popular, he should rote
for the second reading.
Mr. PALE said that the right hon. gentleman would ex-
tinh all the good we had tone by establishing free trade
in drunkenness. To make his scheme good he must erect
foreign intemperance upon intemperance at home. His
OIL panic) experience was, that the greater facilities they

(Laughter.) The hon. member (Alderman Salomon)
had complained of the grievance it would be to hon. gen-
tlemen if, while they were taking their refreshments at
Ounter's or Farrance's, the shop =slit be visited by • po-
liceman. But if shop with wine licenses were not liable
to inspection, what • set of bear-gardens they might be-
come. They would soon be little better than what was
called in Ireland shebeens. (Laughter.) It had been
pointed out that any retail trader might obtain a wine
license. There wee really no reason in the world why there
should not be • decanter on every counter at Shaolbred's.
(Laughter. )
a tie
be Matilb"lir cue fi m i
ft gavebilie
powerto grant wadi:etas for wine licenses, which,
would not necessarily involve any right to demand •
spirit license. (Hear, hear.) The bill might also with ad-
vantage be made to follow the spirit of the beer bill—he
said the spirit, because be admitted that while that was ex.
eellent, the practice was as bad as possible. The idea of the
beer bill was to give the working man an opportunity of ob-
taining his beer close at hand, and to take it to his house and
drink it there. In like manner it might be as excellent
arrangement to permit wine to be bought in bottles of shop-
keepers and to be consumed at home. (Hear, bear.) He
hoped the bill would be withdrawn, or at least much
modified. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. JAMB would not be influenced by the organisation
which had been alluded to for the purpoee of enforcing tem-
perance : for he could not help thinking there was a
good deal of hypocrisy about that movement. (Hear, hear.)
He would state to the house very shortly the grounds upon
which he opposed this bill. It seemed to him to be ex-
tremely unjust and unfair to persons who had invested a
large capita, not in a monopoly of their own creation, but
upon restrictions placed by the legislature upon them. By
the common law of this land every person was at liberty to
open an ale-house, • beer-house, or • public-house in the
same way as he could set up • linendraper's shop. But,
inasmuch as the normal condition of public-houses was that,
customer* were led to eat as much as possible, to drink as
much as possible, and perhaps sometimes to get as
intoxicated as possible, the legislature had Inter-
fered by various acts of parliament to put restric-
tions upon these houses, and bring them under the
supervision of the magistrates. Hence the restriction that
they were not to be opened without • license ; those who
kept them were not to allow gaming, or to permit bad cha-
racters to ensemble in their houses. They had person,
billeted on them, they were placed under the control of
the magistracy. What wee the effect of all this? It was
all very well for aldermen—for the hon. alderman (Salo-
mon') himself—to say it was a very bard case that • gentle-
man and lady could not go into a pastry-
cook's shop and have • glass of claret with
their biscuit ; admitted it was—but he could
tell the worthy alderman that the pestrycooks and bis-
cuit bakers would never avail themselves of the measure,
if it placed their shops under the surveillance of the police
(Hear, hear.) But this bill made every magistrate an in-
quisitor and every policeman • spy. (Hear.) The effect of
the bill would be, that every beerhouae would take out • re-
freshment license, and then a wine license, and then it would
become a public-house to all intents and purposes. (Hear.) It
was well known that, as regards beershops, Sir R. Mayne
had given evidence to the effect that the control of the
magistrates over the licensed beerhouses and the
houses of the licensed victuallers tended to the
greatest order. The honourable member for Dor-
setahire, who was opposed to the present system, told
the house of the scenes of drunkenness and profligacy which
he had witnessed in the Haymarket ; but the description
given by the deputation which waited on the Chancellor of
the Exchequer on this subject showed that it was in the
unlicensed coffee-houses and the fish-shops, and not in the
licensed victualling houses, that the worst scenes of prolli-
pcy took place. When the hon. member in future wan-
dered through the Haymarket in his nocturnal perambu-
lations frees that knee, he (Mr. James) wondered what his
arpailease wee* her of the new wins-abees. (A laugh.)
Then • great deal had been said about the Excise ; but the
Excise cared nothing about the morals of the people—all
they oared about was the revenue. It was now said that
wine BOOMS could not exist without spirit licenses ;
for when wine licenses were given singly, the
revenue was defrauded by their selling spirits
as well as wine. He (Mr. James) was no advocate of the
present system of licensing—(hear, bear)—he thought it
was very much abused, and that there was • great deal of
gross jobbery about it—(hear, bear)—bat let them deal with
these subject. fairly. The licensed victuallers had expended
• larre sum upon this monopoly ; and he certainly thought
these mattes had been fully explained to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. The deputation consisted of very intelli-
gent persons, and was headed by a gentleman, whose very
name of Homer should have been sufficient to enlist the
sympathies of the right hon. gentleman with his classical
associations ; especially as Horace had told us that Homer
was himself addicted to the nee of wine—

Laudibas arguitur vini •inosus Homer's.
(A laugh.) He thought the measure was unfair and unjust
to a most important branch of trade, and he should there-
fore oppose the measure.

Mr. VILLIERd observed that Mr. James hail taken a
straightforward course. He had appeared as the advocate
of the licensed victuallers. A committee of that house had
reported that the system of licenses was faulty, that it af-
forded no real security to the community. The present bill
provided securities and gave larger scope to the vigilance of
the police, as recommended by the committee, wherein
those who opposed the bill argued that it relaxed some of
the existing restrictions. In their invectives against
drunkenness they overlooked the amount of wine drunk in
public houses, and were alarmed at small potations being
permitted in eating-houses. He described the mode in
which licenses were now given by magistrates, which, he
obsened,nad nothing to do w:th police er good order. While
the bill would supply • great oonvenieuce—a want that
was almost • necessity—he believed it would provide the
strongest seenritiesmninst disorder and abuse.
Mr. HENLEY remarked that, so far from this bill
carrying out the recommendations of the committee
to which Mr. Villien referred, every part of it wan
ift contradiction to and in conflict with them, and he
pointed out some of these contradictions. If there
was one point strongly established before the com-
mittee, he said it was that the having two kinds of
houses was in effect a competition to tempt people to
do whatthey ought nett° do,and this bill was going to setup
• third, in the very teeth of the recommendations of the
committee. Mr. Henley examined the securities provided
by the bill, condemning the manner in which it dealt with
the magistrates, and the perpetual blister of the police.
His objections went, he mid, to the whole framework of
the bill, which it was almost impossible to alter in coin.
mitten.
Mr. C. BUXTON felt reluctantly compelled to °
the bill, and that principally upon • ground which
in his case might appear almost hypercritical, vas., that
it would extend the vice of drunkenness. If it would
merely tend to increase the consumption of cheap and light
wines every rational man would support it ; but he believed
it would tend to increase the consumption of spirits, which
would be introduced in largo proportion in much of the
wine sold at theseplaces, and consumed in that and other
to.. Re thought, too, the bill would tend to demoralise
the police, who would be bribed by the landlords of these
houses with drink, and they would then acquire a habit of
tippling. He objected also that the bill was without suffi-
cient precautions to prevent the abuse of Vie facilities it
gave. They ought not to forget the warning given in the
case of the beer bill, which had brought misery and ruin
upon the working chimes, in consequence of the free trade
in beer which it established, and which was nu doubt right
in itself, but was unaccompanied with sufficient precaution.
He recommended an alteration in the licensing system.
Ho thought it improper that the magistrates should have
the power of fixing the number of licensed houses in any
district, and thus creating a monopoly. He would suggest
that the excise license should be sufficient to entitle any
house to sell beer, spirits, and liquors up to eleven
o'clock, but that houses keeping open after that
hour should be compelled to take out a spe-
cial license. That such license should bring
the house under the superintendence of the magistrates
and reader it liable to be visited by an inspector of public.
houses, who should make periodical reports. He would
have every precaution taken as to the respectability of the
parties keeping the houses, and the proper conduct of them,
but he would not give the magistrates the power of cresting
a monopoly, and the renewal of licenses would be se • mat-
ter of course when there was no complaint apawat the house.
He thought they should bring an a bill founded upon
sounder principles, which rectal give a permanent blow to
that monster vice which inflicted so much misery on the po-
' pulation of this country. (Cries of "Divide.") He was
persuaded the licensing system did not give to the Loudon
brewers, whatever it might do for others, any advantage at
'IL