The Express.
London, England, 1859-07-30 00:00:00

(Stamped id. AdditiceaL) [TWOPENCE.

utterly at the mercy, es we should have been, of any
power that might have chosen to tavola us, be could
scarcely be sufficiently thaaktul Chet ft never mowed into the
heed of any greet military nation to do so. We
had for may years been going so upon this den-
=system of redaction until our power of
was reduced very tar below to. minimum
lost, ad ell be would urge upon the goverment and she
wag to raise It up to that minimum point below which
it eaglet never to have been allowed to fail, so so to place be-
yond the reach of danger whatever cow ingeec7 might arise.
He knew that there were friends of his in the home who
thought that all these forebodings deserved but little attention.
(Hear, hear.) lie respected sad honoured the motives and
the prlocipice of them gentlemen who belonged to what was
aided the pesos party, but while they on the one hand
honestly ad morcientiouely, sad he mold odd usefully and
velaably to the country, followed out their vocatioe, he on
the other heed a non orentiously thought that if their views
wenn athriell beyond a certain practical point, they were
the country. (Hear, hear.) Thanking=for their attention he binged to move that the
mom of completing the necessary works of national defence,
projected or already in proves, should be met by a Wed
eyed ally provided for that porpoise, and independent of the
annual mesa of wham. nt.
Mr. 8. HilithEßT had, In common with the met of the
beam keened with great admiration to the able and elo-
= cash of
througilititleri.glotlehooni
lines; d, end It
and did be
venture
noe.
to teeth upon the delicate ground which his hoe.
friend had trodden, It was because he did not
with to convert what ought to be a debate on
what should be the beefs of oar peace es'abilelmnt
Mier a die:minim on foreign pelhp, Midi • Ileka
emir an
ellorainer, tactillit&M isfekr
lettentam of • great mammies. He the he the
=griee the government hat ban meek& If
Word could be wed, • Mbar Is she de-
fame which they were etzeogibefelem sod
they were folloeing the legielesele" peseytrit2
wee the true policy of • OM asassaldal
=e. (Hear, hear.) We hate skein& dosilleas. end
ve nine. Peace was wit MM rarity—ft Was the
snores Moor prosperity, and matte poillsy Islet alepari tithe
hem of government under which ele bad the begmblese to llm.
If he agonised the qeeetion of wee themes It was sot with a
view to show Met porn we might be Mk te make them
any ther bee raker se show what were the mums of mea
leafiegmeeleen aid keel (the country fa a stets of ma-
rib% lefeedfiested limes -when the *Hs of Ile country
was wry mime from what it was now. It wee curious to
fallen In litsary of our weeknese in point of delblien After
the geed war, wrien we, like the other nations of Harms,
were ashausted by the efforts we had made, we believed, sad
Ramp bettered, in perpetual penes—that war would never
egad' etwur —we lived on our character, and neglected
▪ meednee the omens necemary for oar proper
oriesellp; and when at lest moved to the danger of our
theisketind the becemity of making efforts to rodeos it,
egkeedid the, ofrantry go with the government of the day,
Mad do bows won hem them any extraordinary mer-
lins. ILO tenembieed when the connotation w.e appointed
to mean the ethelition of our dockyards, and woen the
TWO M. tflielleiet ote and kneed were the object of
theta be Imes became they eadeavoured to erect at
Hempen a Imp establishment foe the conatraction of the
stemesey. Toe house and the committee considered that
arthsit extravagant and tinnecessuy ; yet, so far
fentaaving been extravagant and unnewassry, it had
boa found insufficient, and had since been greatly enlarged.
He slated this to show that even when public opinion was
adverse to incurring large expenses for purposes of dekko,
he was not one ot tom who remained satisfied with things
as they were. For a long time after that apathy and Igno-
rance prevailed open this subject. We allowed oar soldier"
to perish, partly because we would not go to the expiates of
housing them, and portly because we treated as q
the mica that men ought to have fresh abut breather=
now se to the fonieratione of which Us right him. ?need bed
spoken. The other night there was • debate
opts the question of appointing a commirsioa
to inquire into the state of oar fortifications,
and be was glad of the Me Minh was then sense to, Mae.
muck as it involved the thometty of more rapidly incressiag
our defences ; end that there should be a farther inquiry by
competent pawns. before ay larger expeadthent ma entered
into for that purpose. He was gied, awn that yolk, to clod
his view maolinee be by en great an authority as the hen.
and gallant general the mambas far Wrsitsineter. He heed
set, es baking ate punkin of importance, and at the same
tline of greet detail, attempted to per an opinion at once;
bat when his mied was made up ris to the necessity et ems
Mies, her made to the government exactly the ems pro-
pos' which wee afterwards brought formed in the home by
the hen end lent genera (kr De L. Evms)
—thear, la "int, though are if the memo of
empfeblegie, seeds the rose proposal whisk Me right hoe.
Mead had made. He was mtithed that fn a country Wm
England, which never had, without great effort and emotive,
mimed • large army, and never amid, they wore bound to
take an that every means by which the service of the army, •
small as it was could be m.de more Ofwciow, should be
framediately anipted. We .hold have the bast arms and
the best eqtripmente, the beet material of every tried, and se
effort should be omitted to produce them. But mow
throe efforts it sprered to him that, having greet
dockyards and animals in which wera concentrated
property of immeme value, end, what wan of still
more eoeseqnence, the meow of reproducing oar mad-
time power there ought to be some meths of 'routing
their delenee when men's Beth and blood were not sakcient.
(Hear, hen.) True, the cost of fortilloationa was mot moot,
and his right hoe. friend was not exaggerating when he and
that in carrytog out these worm the government were pro-
ceeding by driblets. But the driblets they took for forti-
fications this year amounted to 4(10,0001. But let him ark
what, alter all, we. the comporative cost of thin, fortifications
, as epithet sa sem. A. email addition of 26,000 men to the
army would coot 760,0001. a year, and if there Wile
to be bursas, the total cost would be MAK
But If 6,000,0Dt-1. was spigot hi fattiflcations the amok
"barge taking it at 6 per cent. bstetett, would be rely
800.0001. Thee it was to be borne in mind that the se
would die, and the powder and shot would be Mora away—.
the rifle wore eat, sad everything connected with the army
decayed. But if we had • weli.conaidered gown of defence
by math of fortificetione. it remitted aot only during oar
lives but for peaterity. But if it we t scenery to beep the
entry in an efficient state for the purpose of national defence,
it wee more neoeaeary to keep the navy to. Oar animals
were the reproducing power oi the state as terattled the navy.
Without going further into detail he should like, if the
bongo would allow him, to toll them whet the amounts were
which had been voted an 4 now stood upon the estimates for
the past year. At Portsmouth, taking the have and form
which hie right hon. flitted hod mentioned, he would find
that, irrespective of the mime already voted, 400,0001. would
be aseaseary to complete the defoom at Portsmouth, which
bad already been explained to parliament. And in addition
time were the defences at Spitiread, for which nothing had
bees voted. With regard to Plymouth there was 335,0001.
es Mourn standing in the estimate for carrying out the works
Mee; that 336,0001. would Dot put Plymouth in a state of
complete and permanent defence. And thin there was Fem.
broke Chatham, the Thames, snit other places His right
hon. ;fiend had referee to Woolwich, and mid that toe state-
saint which he (Mr. 8. Herbert) made the other night was
open cad frank upon that subject. He thought it picot that
a minister, in giving any explanation to the hops., emend be
frank, sad It was la the epirit of frankness that he elated
that Woolwich was totally undefended. The Thames
wee partially defended by fortifications ; it might
• meth stronger, and reqdred to be; but Woolwich was
totally undefended again.' • land fem. He was aware that
some people thought Woolwich ought not to be defended,
and that the tree pMicy was to break up Woolwich and have
a number of small establishments la different places, and not
to have the whole of our reproducing power concentrated
in one arsenal. That also was a question he was anxious to
have thoroughly dimmed and considered. His right hon.
freed asked what mourity had they that there Inge ems
would be exposited on these works it voted, and theright hoe.
baronet said the other night I don't Mow the system of
basher on which you proceed. You have mosey voted f .r
=Oobjects and you do sot spend it. It often happens
n do not spend la the year the money voted." la rail.
ways, Whim there was no mentos of voting, there was not
much difficulty, for if the looney was not spent at the time
it was afterwards. But many things interfered to delay the
mete in connexion with fortifications. A frost would put
• Mop to earthworks ; and en intimetke had been
made to him yerterday that the strike in esetain trade.
counseled with holding and engineering might occmion
delay to some of the weeks in program, tor which looney
bed been take in the estimates for the present yen. After
be bad spoken the other night, and whin he had no oppor-
tunity et coon. ring, it was and that the committee ought to
have a wider field of inquiry. He wanted an inquiry into
a specific subject, and upon that rubject he courted advice
from men capable of giving it. If the told was widened eo
es
to inquire how armies ehoold be posted. and other wetter',
they would delay it. Bat be could amens the he.
baronet he had not neglected these other matter* to which
Whitton had been mad.. His predecessor had appointed a
oommervion consisting of several officers to collider whet
steps should be taken in case of the outbreak ei war. That
commission, cousiating of emend eminent adhere, bed dram
up • very detailed report which was in Weir kends, and tepee
which he was seeing. He was the taking mesas so afford
to young officers a tborourth knowledge of the Omflminik
the country, and may bad hen examined as to the but
Means of defence—not because he expected hevestos to-
morrow, but that we might take precaution for a time.
The great question was how to establish the brio el
▪ sound pesos establisbment. That we. a monk% •t MOM
mite. Look et the army estimate, and the themes. sum
mnd. If othiag was more mestislastem, thet with se
muck mosey expended go hole ea sera war
And now, let him anew, r en thaerneks of Me hen. IE
hied that he (Itr. 8. Henan) la es
amid • contract. The ink lateehreme which
he bad mode we to berme tbei apply of
the Enfield Him from 1,600 to 1,000 a week, and by a
Might addition to the c worsot rice to seam a superior
Wick. (Rear.) The late gvegament sot a umber of die-

tininiabot oaken to surrey and report spots the TIMM
fors is the Meditetrusean. That report had been 1111011101/1
and wits now bring acted upon, Lad he wee glad to my that
it showed that no additional force was mtesaary
for the defame of those forts, and that the
only cheeps requisite were for the simplification of
their arommente. The government wire seeding out
helm inns to it.. them ; bet nothing could be more absurd
than to suppose that any attack upon Gibraltar or Malta
could be mousesful In their present state. With regard to
animates. of the testier annmast be remembered that
we had regiments coming h. from India, sad if an
increase were made, to be hemafter reduced, the result would
be only to destroy she efficiency of the men and add to the
list of Mlf-poy Wherry. What he limited wait that the
home should come to some better conclusion for

the permanent establishment of tinarmy, instead of
I wildly calling for augmentations at the time, and
as wildly demanding large reductions at another.
In sddition to the creation of nine we had our great ord-
nance to renew. In a eery short time a great part of oar
'hips of war would be armed with rifted gunk and In con-
Delloll with every new description of arm you had to supply
a new form of ammunition, which, supplied on a great scale,
wee vary costly. These Hinge It was which mote our esti-
mates so large while our army was so email. Improvement
sad ohmage were rapidly going on, and we must keep up with
them ; and he was abide that be did not see much change of
a deoresse ef the cotheatse for the produerion and reproduction
at meth He maid say that the feettheadoes which had bees
theafeed ear aught to be dash with es tinkly as poemilds
end he the making provides he teat porpoise. Hie right
hies. irked said this with or without a testellesida you
could sot reeled on- his or any other plea elides yea had
lthe peellethellestrithisser any
with ne dock a tad, bat
whin it the lard' hem the neesiethe wind ought to be
dons then it same bit dens at mica Nevertheleer, end pood-
les tie the *ark' were still going ow; end they
might are be with ma fast as the literality of parlia-
ment wail slum, sod the government was doing that. He
bad nemally said as emieent engineer ethos if be was
skis 'three hithebe, and was Owed In On position of a
thstrather kr ethilthey, could he do tooth than was being
thee see; sled he espYd test If lie worked at such a rate se
le beetle to pt tlssieotry in a partial Mate of demo) in
a year, the said not be completed ander three years ;
that be amid net amplete theme this year at all, as it was
seesaw, iesh sod organise lenge bodies of workmen,
end test the best . pert et the waling seems was gone by.
&via if, se One was being lost by the appointment of the
theathildies, tindthe gevennteet would gate mach with the
peels Vali intithlry was satisfied that the ameemery-. works
teeth talc adttemod. In the respect the mike of he right
the. timed wen premature. Hie right bon. heed acknow-
ledged that the tippet's. meat of the ommeisdon was a
rood- thing, bet until it made he report it would
to ask parliament for xpeoce. He
(Mr. 'Herbert)
io
objected to some of the words 14 the
motion, asiedly, that the neceseary works "should be mat
by a feed specially provided for that purpose, mid independent
of the annul votes of perbareent: lie we nut sure that
We lest sentence was necearery with reference to any well-
ethelthrei plea for works of defame, bet he was sure that if
yen wished parliament to go along with you in a matter of
shielded, you must have their sanction for every step to yaw
proceedings. He objected to any plan which profaned to take
a large gam ken parliament when you could conciliate their
congde oar and op-operation by raking for what you treated
as the steps you took required. He had thus endea-
voured se shortly as he could to observe upon the
matement of hie right hon. friend. If he said one word
it was In reference to what his right bon. friend bad remarked
with regain to volunteer troop., whom he thought had been
dinottregingly treated and looked upon sea pkodan force.
Wherever had been done with regard to rainwear saps,
might be said to have been a creation of the tote govern-
ment. He did not intend to caw any reflection on the late
government, but still be mint lay that he thought that the
present government had given wearer enconagenentto vo-
lunteer corps than the late admtnismstiou ; and of those
fa rooks of formation be hoped some day to ere
sevanal very efficient battalions. it had never occurred to
him to ealmider the volunteer movement es a plebeian move-
meat; on the °gateau, he had before now maid that he
thought It a misfortune for Rutland that whiter the upper
elan wee pommel of a military spirit, and that whilst the
lower clue also wane influenced by a military @pint, it was
not go with the middle elms, end that what he
wanted to see was, In case of their being called on for the
deletes of the country, the some spirit evinced by all cleans.
Hebb& anted unreservedly his opinions on this subject, and
he had eedeavoured to show that the government
were zest going to sleep is the matter, and that
from tee moment he entered on the onerous, difficult,
and respeesible office which he held he bed turned his
wthation le this gumlike. The commission which had been
agreed to wand set to work temeedlately, and all he could
soy ems Matme nost as they made their report the govern-
ment would give their salwas attention to in subject-mat-
ter, end were about to deal with it not in a epirit of shelving,
but in a spirit, be hoped, of rapid and immediate so-
f bon. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. BM . Horeman's motion prema-
ture before t completed it. inquiries.
Sir C. N It upon the defective manning of
our navy, w ted te the minuanagentent of the
Admiralty, ly mend navy he insisted that
there would ' to waste money upon tortifka-
now.

Mr. COBDEN, who was loudly called for, said he could
not pretend to throw soy light on the technical questions at
Wave. But he observed that this matter had now arrived at
• sage where the old appliances end remedies were et no
use. We had voted this year 261 million sterling for
oar defence., of which 121 m'llions were for our
navy. Together we bad mad for oar defence. twice as
reach this year as voted h the year when he first entered
that house. sad three times isnot& this year ter our navy alone
as was voted Ps 1836, when Sir Robot Peel and the Duke of
Welllngtos were at Um he ad of affairs. And now his right
hon. friend (Mr. Homenan) came forward and said that we
had not yet a minimum of au establishment, sod that we
mast eat every public and private dockyard at work to in-
emaseit. It was quite evident, theorists, that we could sot,
by voting any amount of money sod going on la the SUM
oat's, bring ourselves into . satisfactory posidoa. He
(Mr. Cobden) would therefor* suggest whether them might
not be mother view of the gurottee—whether gentlemen in
• state of panic and alarm noght not have exaggerateal the
ease, and fallen into some hallaciaatioas shoat the danger
ituotieding over at—whetter they had not altogsthe
mistaken the evil with which they had to
Now, he had been for some tune past out
the reach of Blue books, but two days ago
stumbled by accident on a document originally pr
pored for the informatioa of our government, which gave a
description of the oomparative Awes of the English and
French navies. He confessed that be bad read that paper at
tint with some incredulity; sad if be had not within his
own recollection an incident which occurred seven year. ego,
he would not now venture to quote the statistics of that
document, after what we bed heard mid of the awful prepa-
rations which bad been made in Francs. The incident he
alluded to was this. Seven years ago, in 1862, when the
panic of a Franck levasioa raged at much se it did
liner, if not more, he laid a wager with a general
attar, who bed aver Pule* been paying tea guineas
• year to the Manchester Infirmary as a penalty for his rash
adherence to an assocuttion which he (Mr. Cobden) had ;tee-
tered to call in gwettou apron this subject. To decide that
controversy, be (. Cobden) applied to the French govern-
ment for information, and got a statement of the naval
budget of Frame for that year, which ha plaited In the Mode
of several gentlemen hayloft the control of influential organs
of public opinion, and one of those gentlemen, who was now
sitting in the House of Commons, and who was the proprietor
of • great j)arnal in the North of England, made use of that
information honertly to stem the torrent of alarm and ap-
preheneion which them prevailed. Be remembered also that
hie hon. friend the member for Dumfries wrote to the
French Minister of Marine, M. Decor, whom reply wee, .1a
one to year newepayers accusing us of menag naval
preparations, I will crate that 1 have not edded a boat to
our marine, or • gun to the armament of our ships." Re-
membering those tnoidrnts, he would venture to quote the
document which belied mentioned, in reply to hie right bons
friend below him who now spoke of the French as having
made" emetic preparations for the Weston of a country
watch was a great naval power." Now what did Hite
document show ? The only salutary tamtatent foe such •
fever se now affected many pawn* in and oat of that hones
wee • ceti investigation of the facts of the case. He had had
an 0 ppo. wally of reading over this statement with the aid of
• few friends who were well acquainted with steatite' mat-
ure. He found that is this report, pabbaked by oar own
government, having been drawn up confidentially for their
information by a committee appointed for the purpose, there
was • compartments! the Frame and English navies, showing
what they were is 1862, when the. awful panic prevailed
before, sad what they wets ha 1868. Now HU» hems
would be a little calm, ha (Mr. Cobdea) eit'ould emu the
remits of Hutt *napoleon. It ma derided that the Preach
bed a show of enpariority in steam frigates, whilst we bad •
ommeidereble sameterity in screwbe;ttle ships. (No.
no.) In line-of.battle shine, built and building. as sePtto"
the French, built end baildieg, we had • euperiarl7.-118
believed we tied ten liumrd-battle ships more than the ',reach.
without including the blockehipe, which, he wee told, went
serviceable. In the number of frigate*, the Preach navy
wee somewhat superior to the English, but there was the rest
01 oar navy, not to be left out of the computes!!
resisting of the corvettes and Pimp.. and
these irearela which, egoording to the '"
wisest pence, upon naval aff.irs be bad bees able to con-
sult, wealth. most eflctive of all. The Americana were
building nothing bat corvettes. and they mid those were the
vas
disc
Illam1727:16".418 6:8 " rmith7bad 296 sailing vesicle, shoe-
-I"43.o,..eawnwsb"ha eareseere,in °a"
iteadw.ries. INB.s6Bwshe, inhadll4s4
ls,
this teenage of 282 in that period.
The French in 1852 had 122 war stemma, Sad
ie la 1868 they
peasereed 261 war Mamma showing an Mcree el but 142
spinet oar increase of 288. Oar increase had therefore been
threreulletgliinsh""nevnyumbabr 2990 f
j...ionsnetw. dour;be In
aele