The Express.
London, England, 1866-03-13 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 13, 1866.

and familiar with the use of pee and ion, a number ; holders of small houses. (Hear, hear.) But as the other hung so °moldered It, do sot do it as if compounding with
al intelligent ;ming persons desirous of obtalnieg the hand, an 'screw would have to be made for the effect pro. !danger sod nesfortnee, but as if conferring a boos which
erudite would doubtless lake the trouble ci doing ace I duce Iby tee abolition of the rate and tax paying deems will be felt and reciprocated by a feeling of grateful
do sot think that any large number of the worldling chainsinput that elan of person • for our rule of tun sum was etteehenent, by our were,* in „„ „middlemen, by e
I will come upon the register by ream of the lodger firan• i framed upon the oestet‘ce of the ratepaying clauses. beneficent working of the law of mature and prove
ghee. Coneqnsnily, I take the 60,000 as the addition.' , There would also be en addition to be made for the savings deuce, begetting new attachment to the oeustitution,
sefrancinisemest that will be obtained by the provisions of , bank franchise. Ido not myself attach very great cone- the Mtg.:limns of the people to the throne and laws under
the bill I have the honour to ask leave to introdsce. And . queue to any of these venous modifying Mnemonic's, which we live, which is, after all, more than your gold and
wow I come to the last important mimeos of enfranchise- which may. perhaps, OD the whole, be taken as taluotog silver, and more than your fleets and armies, at once the
meek, namely, the enfranchisement of those whom I may ; one smother ; and 1 should say that the addition to the strength, the glory, and the safety of the lead.
enter* to all below the line-that is to say, enema- working Mass voters by the reduction to 71. would be shout The right hoe. gentennun resumed his 'eat amidst loud
shisement downwards, wine* would not only be 144,000. Now, sir, I wish to point out to those who think cheers, at 10 minutes past 7 o'clock.
en extra part, bat • most important part of any that this addition to the constituency ought not to take Mr. MARSH, whospodkeatmicl to sa
at theyeemoinet
flabo was thefmernbers
menus relating to an extension of the franchise, place, that all are disposed to admit that the tenches ought leaving the house, was unen.
Is the passage that I reed from the speech of my noble .to be attainable by the working man. I thick that the beginning of tbs end. Tbe right hop. gentleman had ex-
friend. Laid Revell, in 1860, he adverted to the possibi- most extreme speeches heard in this house in oppo- pressed an opinion that a 61. qualification would swamp the
lity of changing a 61. rental franchise for • rated franchise • shift to Uwe have been of this character-they all state p t constituencies, but he did not pronounce spinet it,
el the same amount. The question of a rated franchise it to be desirable that the working man should reach the and a 71. was little better. The hoe. member for Birmingbaut
has always been one of the greatest interest to those who franchise. Let us then consider his position with regard would■urelylookonthi.asasteptowardsuniversalauffrage,
have been engaged in the preparation of our too numerous to the 101. qualification. Tea pounds clear annual vane, It had been said that the lower class of voters supported
reform bills. The advantage of having an external standard when you uuke the proper addition for rates and furniture, tory candidate.. That might be true io quiet times when I
not dependent simply upon • process which each man must . must mean that the house costs the man not lea than brilaery and treating was going on, but in times of political'
renew for himself, but dependent upon the fiat of a public , lei!, Well thee lam safe, end I speak with moderation excitement they went with the popular party. He believed
authority, though guarded by an appeal (it beteg the bassi-1 wino I say that the working moo does not speed woe than toe fact to be that no very large number in that house were
sees of that public authority to fix the value of the bold. one-sixth of big income on his house. is favour of reform. Those who were most so were those
leg for certain parochial purposes which are not political), Mr. WHITE-One-tenth. who wished to bring the country to the lowest level of de- II
is obvious. And there was another reason which, but foe The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQTTER-Some one money. They !tithed for it because they had all ear-
objections which I shall prenatally mention, would have led says a tenth, but I think it I. onosixth, as sear as we can teenier hobbies to ride. Sometimes that hobby was political
as not only to the adoption of a rating franchise, but to the calculate, and therefore his tomato must be 961., or in ecooolny ; then it was peace throughout the world. But
adoption of almost precisely the franchise indicated in other words, without making any allowances whatever for hart democracy really been favourable to human freedom
that passage of the speech of my noble friend-I mean the , Bickner or interruptions of work, be must receive 11. 17.. and progress! If they looked at its history with re. I
existence of the Sman Tenements Act, which provides that : a week, or, if we allow for necessary breaks, about 21. a gard to commercial freedom and religions freedom
in all boroughs where it shall be admitted (and boa. gentle- . I week. Only every small portion, of the working classes can they would fiud that it bad been the oppo-
men will have seen foe themselves that it is adopted in • hope to receive 2/. • week, and I don't think a 101. fran- nest and not the friend of measures calculated
large majority of the boroughs of the country) every ten- chin can be said to be liberally or largely within the reach to promote freedom under those heads. Protection was, in
aunt up to, and including 6/. @ball have the rates paid by 'of the working man. A 71. franchise, however, would operate fact, a child of democracy. The navigation laws were oot
the landlord., and there would no doubt hays been a very great in a different manner. Adding 11l in the other cane° per cent. introduced by the Stuart., but by the Commonwealth;
advantage in earn; "We will adopt the precise limit which I for rates and furniture, it would come in the gross to 111.4.., and in America at the present day they found high, almost
mellowest has indicated as showing its idea of the capacity which would represent an income of 671. 41. a year, or, in- prohibitive, tariffs io connexion with democracy. It was
of a man for paring direct local taxes-where that capacity stead of 37e. a week, a lens under 26e. Now 26r. a week the same in all our own ooloniee where there was a large
shall begin, and where that capacity does met exist, so is an income which is undoubtedly unattainable by the extension of the suffrage combined with local self-govers-
franchise shall be given." Bat when we came to look at I peasantry or mere hand labourer, except under very favour- went. Then as to social and civil freedom, it was only
the operation; of the Small Tenements Act, and found that able circumstances, but it is very generally attainable by necessary to look to what had been done at the time of the
the franchise to be effected under it would not have ex- I the artisan and skilled labourer of our towns. I will now French revolution in put times and to the stated things in
needed about 80,000 persons, we did not think that was endeavour to give a general view of the figures of this case, France under universal suffrage at the present moment, in
such a number as emu oas of those rarely oceurrieg nes- lin order that I may place it billycll tefore the house. In order to judge how far democracy promoted header,
stone of the redistribution of the franchise ought to be pro- ; counties, as I have said. if our become law, the working The press of Francis was gagged. At the time of the last
pond to parliament, or could be held up to the fees of the I classes will form • smaller proportion of the wbole cense- revolution, is 1848, all the English workmen in Frame were
country as being what might be fairly called a settlement tueocy than they now do. In the towns the voters of the obliged to leave. Under the democratic institutions of
of the question. (Hear, hear.) Bat we were then met by classes apart from the working classes amount to 362,000. America they had such legislation as the Maine Liquor Law,
another question. It is the !seta the drier subjectstowhieh I The worg classes have now 126,000 votes. There will be and in this country, where the trades' unions legislated for
1
I shall ban to call the attention of this hone, but it is an neweleetersof theworkiegiessseswitb houses above the line their fellow-workmen, they found that the houses and
important ens, end I will beg peculiarly for your patience of 10/. to the amount of 600,000 ; and below that line, gofer workshops of obnoxious parsons were blown up with ris-
en • very few minutes. We were called to consider the' as lan calculate, to the amount of 144,000, making the powder. In this country trades' unions legislated for 1
I great change-or, to go • step further, the great reform- I number of the working classes in the constituency 330,000, I themselves, but in Australia they urged their measures
which bee been effected by my right hoe. or a total addition of 204,000 to the 126,000, upon tins parliament with a view to give them
friend the President of the Poor-law Board which are now included in the constituency. The total the force of law ; and only lately a deputation bad
through the medium of the Union Assessment Act. enfranchisement contemplated is, in counties, by the 141.1 urged the pawing of a Eight Hears' Labour Bill, 1
In former days people said, Why not have a rated fran- occupation, 172,000, to which, however, is to be added Well, thee, did democracy promote religious freedom! He '
chin? why Pot have some franchise drawn from the ran I what may be thought fit on account of eopyholders and the ugbt that the state of things in Francs and elsewhere
book! But, sir, the irregularity of rating was so gross and leasehOders, and of the savings bank franchise • in towns was • complete answer in the negative. He had no heel-
monstrous
in various parts of the country, that no one there will be an addition of 204,000, making a total sildi. Wien in saying that the working classes of this country
attempted it in the bill of 1854. Undoubtedly, Ido not ton of 376,000, so far as we may venture to offer definite could not with justice complain that they were not repro-
think It would have proved • satisfactory basis of the Iran- , figures on the subject. With respect to the lodger, the seined in that house. Many ects of parliament had been
Mats, But rating is now immensely improved. Our duty : oopybold, the leasehold, and the savings bank franchisee, i passed expressly for their benefit which were more or less
is to take the very best and simplest basis for the franchise ' we shall, perhaps, be pretty safe in throwing in for them • contravention of theistrictkrinciplesof political economy. '
we can find. (Cheers.) The question is, whether there is, the 4,000 necessary to make up the round number, and io IHe might refer to the Factory Act, to the institution of
sot another basis for the franchise more nearly coinciding . stating that the total enfrenokiseraent will be one of ! poet-office savings banks, to the encouragement and hail'. '
with the present basis, although different in legal expree- . 400,000, of whom one-half will being to the working, I ties for forming public trading companies, and the late Mi-
ssion, and a basis which would be better in every way 1 sad the other half to the middle classes, amongst provementa in the poor law. With regard to taxation, they
than that of rating. Perhaps I had better say at 1 whole there are, indeed, many persons of education, I had been highly favoured at the expense of the upper and
once that the basis I mean is a clear annual though not persons of great means or fortune. Now, I middle classes, and, with the exception of tobacco and
mane. The present harmless is determined prima facie by ' sir, as to the proportion which this new oonstitrobeer, there was scarcely anything that could be said to bear
• that column re the rate book called gross estimated rental. : emu will bear to the house` olden of the country. I heavily on them, and in both cases they taxed them-
Rating is good if we consider it as the adoption of a public • There is in our towns a population of 9,396,000 mesons :of j selves. It had often been questioned whether freemen
seanaare-of a public standard supposed to have been im. ; then the adult males are 2,331,000, sod the adult male should not be disfranchised on the ground that wherever
partially chosen for the purposes of local taxation. But in occupiers, 1.347,000. Of those occupying houses at and overt there were any there was corruption at elections ; but if
&very, hing is which rating is good, gross estimated rental 71. there are 847,000. The actual constituency of ' this bill should be passed, that class of voters would be
is good also ; and green estimated rental avoids various 488,000 represent 36 per cent of the male occupiers ; but greatly increased in many plans, and then new voters
warns of error in equality sod jute', for tins rateable the proposed eonstitneney of 692,000 would represent 511 would be just as mach open to bribery as freemen. It
value is. after all, estimated by certain deductions ; rateable per cent. • and of the working classes there will be 330,000 , should be understood that sinesthe Reform Bill of
Talus contains not any really independent element of to. enfranchised, against 588,000 onenfranchised, being less than 11832 wages had risen very considerably, and work.
formatioe which you do not get in the gross estimated , two in five, but more than one is three of the working isg men were now far better able to, and more
rental. Rateable value is not in itself, per se, the proper climes. The gross constituter of the whole country-' of them really did, occupy 104. houses than
test to adopt, because it is not the test of what a man that is of England and Wales-would stand thus: There I were ocoapied by the same clue in 1832. He had faith in
pays for his tenement, bat it is only • test of the net value : would be 550,000 in the counties, and 514,000 for the towns, 'bricks and mortar being • good guelificatiou, for he had
lof the tenement to the landlord-• matter which it is very , making a total of 1,064,000; but every considerable reduction ! always found the best people living in the beet bones; but
important to the parish officers to know, of course, but with • must be made for those who possess plurality of vote% I the proposition of the right hoe. gentleman would let in the
;which we, as • legislature, have nothing to do. Then, cannot think that upon the moat liberal estimatethe present ' occupiers of lath and plaster, and he entirely objected to
again, two men weepy 104 houses. One of those hewn constituency consists of more than 900,000. In addition 1 such a degradation of the fraeohise. He would remind
is a very solid place, of • very solid and substantial class of to those, we propose to bring in 400.000, making a total , hon. members that democracy lo France had broken down,
house. Well, it only requires a deduction of 6or 8 per coastituenry in England and Wales of 1,300,000. The total as it had done everywhere. He bad just returned from a
cent, probably for repine. The other is a house built with number of adult males is 5,300,000 ;so that the wholelviait to Australia, where he had many good sad generous
very alight materials, and therefore requires a much larger number enfranchised in town and country would be ' friends, but he certainly did not admire the working of the
outlay year by year to keep it in repair. But the same as nearly only one in four. I do not know whether the democrat ° institutions of those colonies, for corruption
rent is paid. The two men are equally fit for the franchise house would like me to recapitulate shortly our proposi- prevailed there of the grossest kind. They might mole say
according to theview of parliament. Aod yet if you adopted tons. (Hear, bur.) The first is toereat. an occupation fran- electoral changes they pleased, but enameller would always
• mere rating standard, the one would be enfranchised chin in counties, including houses beginning at 14/. rental, »mein. Persons living in the great squares sr the Inns of
l and the other excluded. (Hear, hear.' Then there is also and reaching upto 50L, the present qualification. The second Court would remain unenfranchised, whilst people of a
the greater even still remaining local inequality, such as is to introduce into counties this provision, namely, that much inferior due would get the franchise. He thought the
insurance ; and if there is any error in the gross estimated copyholders and leaseholders within perliementary bo- government would have deoe better to have waited until
I rental, it follows you into the column of rateable value. roughs shall be put upon the same footing as the people asked for this bill, or, at least, bad expressed
IWe do not propose to alter the legal definition of the act, that upon which freeholder, in those boroughs now some opinion on the question of reform. He trusted the
but we will distinctly and positively attach that legal defini- stand for the purpose of county voting. The third is house would excuse his urgency, but whilst otben had only
Mon to the me book by saying that the column of grossest'. a swinge bank franchise which will operate in both cone- heard of democracy, he had seen and felt it in all its
mated rental is the rate book shall be prima facie evident., ties and towns, but which will have the more important , hideous deformity. He feared they were drifting towards
that is evidence until contested, of the clear snout ?slue, ' operation in the former. In towns we propose to place • democracy which would ere long completely destroy the
And this, sir, if I have at all made myself into"- compound householders on the sews footing an ratepayers ; present character of our parliament.
ligible to the hones, will secure the double advantage of to abolish the tat and ratepaying clarion ;to reduce 10/. Sir J. FEROUSSON said that since 1832 this question
adhering to the present definition, and avoiding all the to 71. clear annual value ; to bring in the gross estimated bad not been presented to the house in so many branches
irregularities' inherent in rating, at the same tins will rental from the rate-book as the measure of that value as on the present °castles. He thought the question
give a simplicity and certainty, and the facility which is (thus, pm Santo, making the rate-book the register) ; should be settled at once, see such • perpetual raking up of
attained by the use of a public standard such as the rate- and to introduce • lodger franchise, both for persons exciting topics must end in imperilling the constitution.
book in each parish. I need only further say that the holding part of a house with a separate and hide- He regretted-to hear that no time was fixed for ousidertng
gross intimated rental is, as we find, in what may be fairly pendent access, and for those who hold part of the cues of Scotland or Ireland, although Scotland had
called exact correspondence. Of course there will be • house as inmates of the family. of another, made immense progress sines the settlemeot of 1832.
always the opportunity of appeal to the revising barrister We propose to abolish the 'tenuity of registering voters, Looking, however, at the Jamaica and other questions
to the man who is dissatisfied. In all boroughs, except 30, ,of residence at the time of voting, and, lastly-I say lastly which could not wait, he did not think it would be possible
the gross estimated rental appears to be as nearly • because there are some other provisions with which I need to get through this bill during the present session.
as may be equal to the rack rent. In those not trouble the house-we propose to follow the example The hoe. member for Birmingham sketched out this mea-
-30, above one-half exhibit a considerable inequalite, get by tbe right hon. gentleman (Mr. Mersa) and the sure two or three months ago, speaking of it as • step to
' only because the operations under the sot of my right hon.. government of Lord Derby in 1859, and which bas been ens- something further, and if it should receive the royal smut
friend are not yet quite complete, but certainly before any trained and supported by many great autherities, and to there would at the end of this nanion be a most ounvenient
' practical steps could be takes under this bill, the opera- introduce a Mane disabling from voting persons employed opportunity for using this lever by holding over the House
tions would be complete. There are certain other cases-' in the government yards. (Cheers.) I have detained the of Commons the terror of dissolution, with a totally new
local acts-certain eases in the metropolis, where in point house very long in this explanation, but I bad to consider loonstituency to that which returned it. There was no
of fact the column of gross estimated rental is not in se- wbat is the true explanation to be made of such • doubt, from the speeches of the bon. member for Birming-
cordanes with tie Union Assessments Act. That is to say, . plan as we submit. It certainly makes a large addition to ham end the hon. member for Bradford, that this bill had
it represents • merely conventional sum for the purposes of the constituency. The number of persons who vril been introduced by the advice and with the approval of
rating. For • uniform mode of gross estimated rental we be enfranchised by this bill - not veguely estimated, those gentlemen, who advocated it as an instrument for
• propose to provide by enactments. I believe not belonging but taken by positive and absolute figures doing more. There might have to be many appeals to the
Ito the subject, but for the perfection of our system of I which we have been enabled to submit, and people, and the country might be kept in a state of excite-
; rating, and then we can with perfect confidence recommend independent of questions of rating- sill certainly he larger runt for years before the complete scheme passed. The
'the adoption of the gross estimated rental es • general' than the number enfranchised by the Reform BilL The whole thing bore the impress of the utmost haste. The
1 basis of the franchise. In the mean tiros we have got . number which it was estimated were enfranchised under statistics were only placed in the hands of mem-
the means of testing It very efficiently. We called for I the Reform Act would not be greatly beyond 300,000. As hers on Saturday, yet on Monday a bill was
the income-tax returns, and it ought to be known to the ; respects the county vote, we do not apprehend it raises any introduced which professed to be founded upon them. But
hone that the income-tax returns represent • sum coo- I question of principle. As respects the borough vote, we not only had the scope of the mann been shadowed forth
siderably above the rack rent; because in all Gana of I hope it is liberal. We believe and assert that its a mode- months ago out of doors, but members of the government
1
compound householders, and in every case where the ; rate and safe francbise. (Cheers.) It alters greatly the had from time to time given tolerable indications of what
landlord de facto pays the rates, and includes them in balance between the working classes of towns and cities and their intentions were, and it would rather seem that the
'the rent, be pays income-tax upon the rates as well as the other classes in the country, but it does not give the returns were only intended to cover the introduction of a
the rent, and consequently that which is entered foe the absolute majority in those constituencies to the working measure previously determined upon. No one had shown
I purpose of the income-tax is a rental including rates vary classes. It is probable that according to the various Woven greater ignorance upon the subject than the Chancellor of
I much in advance of the rack rent or clear annual lof men's minds we shall be told by some that we have done the Exchequer himself, who last session expressed an
;value. The present figures of the income-fax give I too little, and by others that we have done too much. Our opinion that not one-tenth of the working classes were in-
s total property value of 39,218,000 e, and the gross ' answer is that we have done our best. (Chien.) We eluded In the present constituencies, and stated his
estimated rectal gives 37,375,0001., the difference at I have endeavoured to take into account the state and condi- belief that the proportion wee nearer one-twentieth. The
this moment being, 1,863,000 e, or sper cent. • and. cones- I too of the country as well as the qualifications which people very franchise, the 61. rental franchise, which the hon.
I quently, we have no hesitation whatever in feeling that we 1 possess for the exercise of political franchise. We are member for Leeds was then proposing, would give, said
have bent got a secure bast of operation which will be the mindful that the limbo of abortive creations unfortunately the right honourable gentleman, a predominence to
I means of introducing a great practical improvement in the lis piled with the skeletons of reform bills. We do not the working Masses in the borough constituencies,
administration of the law. The town constituencies nom- wish to add to the number of those unfortunate and abor- and it now looked as though the precise figure
her 488,000 persons. Dividing then. above the line of the tin bins. We may have erred, but we have endeavoured of 71. had ham introduced at the last moment
' working classes them are 126.000 belonging to the .to see how much good by the measure of reform we pro- to suit the statistics, and as a propeedtion which would be
working Muses. 362,000 is the number of votes I pose we have the prospect of effecting for the country. more tolerable to parliament than a 61. franchise. They
in the towns not belonging to the working classes. Wel As to the completeness of the measure 7 have given were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this
propose, as I have said, to add 60,000 to the Ito the house, honesty of purpose compels me, after Reform Bill was smart to at the Cabinet Council next fol-
present number of 101. voters, end that makes I careful exemination of the feet not to attempt to lay on lowing the burial of Lord Palmerston. One of the last
186,000 persons of the working cleanse. Now, if a 61. rental I the table of the house that which we know to be impracti- speeches of that noble lord was spoken upon the bill of
franchise were added to that 186,000, we find this to be the I cable, and which, therefore, must fail. If we are told that the hoe. member for West Surrey and he thought the &p-
-enult : -61. rental, when subjected to the most careful in-1 we ought to have due more, my answer is that it was our prehension expressed io the royal speech and from many
I negation, and by making all the allowances and all the ' ditty to take into consideration the sentiments of the come other quarters that Lord Palmerstues death would be
I additions wbich ought to be made with a view to elute I try, disposed to moderate change, but sensible of the value deeply felt, was to some extent realised by the proceedings
tide, would give 142,000 pennon belonging to the working i of what it possesses, and sensitive with regard to bringing of the government the moment he was removed from its
classes, making a total of 428,000 persons, and in fact I what it possesses into hazard. (Hear, hear.) Nor can I head. (Hear, hear.) The amble lord, while admitting that
it would place the working classes in a clear majority of I deny that, whatever may be our opinions of the capacity some change would be advantageous, stated that be should
the town constituencies. Now that has never been the in- 1 and intelligence *1 the working classes, and of their admire vote against the 101. franchise on the ground that any alter-
tention of any parliament, and we do not think it is a pro- i able performance, at least, of their duties towards their ation of the existing arrangement which would tend too
penal that parliament would adopt, although I cannot for . superiors-for it has ever seemed to me that the sing much to introduce the oommereial element would
myself think such • emus would be attended with any they have in common with us all are chiefly eine against injure that balance between the agricultural and
great danger. (Hear, bear.) lam sure, however, it is sot . themselves-it is true of them, as it is of any alas, that it manufacturing interests which all were anxious to
according to the view or the expectation of the house ; and lis • dangerous temptation to human nature to be suddenly preserve. But the principal feature of this bill ,
although for my part leo Dot think witch misappree. invested with preponderating power-(cbeers)-and that is was the power it gave to the towns as opine to d the I
;!tension need be entertained with respect to it, yet I the reason why we have not done more in the enfranchise- counties. He had found in the artisan dim an intelle
this I will admit, that upon senora' erounds of po. meat of that class, We may be told that we have dome genes not behind that which was possessed by the aui-
litical prudence it is not well t . make too sodden too much. I hope that will not be said. Ido not entirely cultural portions of the constituency, bat if the object
and extensive changes in these matters. (Heir.) abandon the expectation that even those who bays pro- were to obtain • just balance, not to throw power into
II do not think that we are called upon under the circum- totted on principle against the extension of the franchise the hands of one elate, but to preserve the independent
stances under which we stand to give over the majority of downwards may yet be Mooned to accept a measure which' representation of all, he was surprised that the grave
town constituencies into the bands of the working class. they do not approve of if they think it offers • fair promise should hardly have closed over their late leader before
We propose, therefore, to take the figure next above that. o' the settlement for a considerable period of a great, im- he ministers brought forward a measure so opposed to the
namely, 71. clear annual value. (Loud laughter, end a • rent, complex, and difficult question ; but if not, 1 opinions the noble lord expressed. He looked forward with
bass of conversation which lasted for a considerable in- I would beg them to consider what an immense value great apprehension to the prolooged discussioes which were
' tient) I will give the house the exact memories' result, so there es in en extension of the franchise for it. oenlto take place on fragmentary portions of this great question
I far se we can distinctly make it out, of the 71. clear I sake. (Cheer'..) The franchise, like liberty, is a thing -dimensions which might lead to great excitement in the
annual value. The figure of 71. is not very far 1 which is geed, not only in its traits, but in itself. It is country, the results of which could not at present be re•
from that apparently fixed by the Small Tens. what we conoantly say with regard to English legislation Mind. (Hear, hear.)
meets Rating Act; but the result as to admission I when we are sold that things are managed more economi. Mr. W. MARTIN hoped the government would not rein
will be considerably larger. If gentlemen will take . telly, more cleverly. and more effectually in foreign coon. the simplicity of their measure by attempting disfraochise-
the pains to add together the gross total of the male Open. IWu Oar &weer ie. yes, hut they are managed here free. I mut as well in enfranchisement. (Hear, hear.) He bad
piers at 7/. and under 101. it will then make • rule of three I and in freedom in the very discharge of duty there is an I been perfectly dunned, as most member, were, by the ele-
gem, baring for its first two terms the gross number of immense pow.- for the people, both in the way of diseip- ' quoin manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
occupiers above 101. and the present number of the 101. ' line and education. (Cheers.) If the issue is to be taken I had dealt with a very difficult subject, and he only regretted
oringtituents, and for its third term the gross number of : adversely on this hill, I hope it will be taken direct. I that there should have been upon that splendid perform-
occupiers between 71. and 10/. ; the fourth term will give ; trust that it will be taken on the question whether there u' &nee the one blot of a proposal to disfranchise any persons
I them the probable constituency upon reducing the fran- ornot tense enfranchisementdownwards,if it ia tebetaken • employed under the government. He believed those un-
chise to 71. (Renewed laughter.) I am very glad that at all. We have felt it to be &seine' to character, to Cr.- ' fortunate voters were independent, and the reame, he said,
studies in arithmetic prove Ks amusing, as their are gene- die and to usefulness-to the character and credit net merely ; was, that at every general election they had returned some
rally thought to be amongst the driest of all subjects ; but , of the government and the party, but of the house and the lof the meet consistent and determined opponents of the
the result-of this sum is 156,000 persons. I parliament, committed as parliament has been to a reform I government of the day. During all the veers the liberal
A Minnese-The gross somber. lin the representation of the people. We cannot consent to . government bad been in power Sir F. Smith maintained his
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-No • the ' look on this addition, coosiderable though it be, of the . holdonChatham. When the tight hon. member for Droitwiah
net. The gross number will be between 207,000' and I working cleans to the constituency of the country, as if it ! (Sir J. Pakington) was at the bead of the Admiralty, be (Mr.
208,000. From the net number • deduction mutt be made ; were an addition fraught with nothing but danger. We; W. Martin) was not only enabled to maintain his seat, but to
for &certain number of freemen, who were already entree. cannot look on it as the Troj an horse approaching the walls 'treble nearly his majority; and now with &liberal government
chised. I take off one-third of the total number of free- of the sacred city filled with armed men, and bent =rein, I there were two opposite° members sitting for Davenport
men now enjoying the franchise, and that leaves 144.000, thunder, and conflagration ; we cannot compare it to the •He believed that'll then searched the records of election
who would be the persons enfranchised by the reduction to ; moostraa inlet'', or say : I committaes they would find that on no occasion bad a
71. clear annual rental. But it is right that I should , Scandlt fatale machine memos frets ernes, government labourer in the dockyards condescended to take
point out causes by which in the view of I -- ma dheque minans tllabitur urbt. i a bribe. With regard to the present measure, he hoped
IMO persons the calculation may be modified. There are (Chem.) We believe tiot those person whom we ask you hat the long discussions which hid been alluded to by
some permits living in homes beureen 71. sod 101. to enfranchise ought rther to be welcomed es you welcome . many hoe. members would not be used to demolish the
who do not belong to the working Manes, but the number recruit to your army. (Cheers.) Ws ask you to give fib]. It must be remembered that the bill of 1860 did not
'of these, so far as our inquiries go, is very small ;I believe; within what you =eider the just limits of prudence and perish under the crafty fence of the right hen. gentleman
that 5 per cent, would be an overstatement of it ; and it is' circumspection, hut having cl--termined those limits. to give the member for Buckinghamshire, but fell from the shot
needless to take in view the reduction on this account. ; with *mg band.Cousider what you can safely and of its own allies. He trusted such would not be the fate
Then, again, then must be some deduction made OD account justly afford to do in admitting new subjecte and citizens of this measure.
of the more frequent removals which take place amonpt within the pale of the parliamentary constitution, and Sir F. OBASSLEY arm sorry the government had not felt

it their ditty to (*farther in the proposition now submitted
to the boon. He believed, however, that they bad dealt
beastly with the subjoin, sod on that amount he tendered
them his support • sad he had so doubt they would resolve
the support of the great mar of the population out of doors. I
(Hen, hear.)
Mr. CRAWFORD begged to observe, in regard to the
seven voile radios, that in the case of the City of Loudon
acted as en sett! disfranchisement of many persons who
paid rates and taxes. In the middle coarse which the
government had steered there could be no doubt they would
obtain a very large amount of support from those who re-
presented the metropolitan constituencies.
An HON. limns below the gangway on the oppotiti -n
side of the hone was understood to my that he would give
a general support to the measure.
Mr. Serjeant GASELEE, though a little ntisfied with
the bill, thought it bed a decided blot upon it because it
proposed to disfranchise dockyard voters. (Laughter.) A
petition presented against the return of himself end
colleague had been withdrawn, and he believed there
was not the slightest pretence for any of the numm
roue charges brought against them in that peti-
tion. He protested against disfranchising this clam
of voters, men respectable end excellent in their
way, while those freemen who engaged in every kind of
corrupt practice, and were • disgrace to the country, »-
rosiued on the register. So far from approving this nut
of the bill, he thought that employEs an the Post-office,
custom-horse offlecre, and other penned in the service of
the government at present disqualified, should be enfran-
chised.

200,000. and an aggregate of. 16,000 11041111. sad
these boroughs returned 64 members to garment.
The °tasty of Lanark, with a populatios of 580,000. maw
intuited a reek member ; Death*, with • pepelatioe
11,000, and the eapital of ere of the peat staples et
Wigs" iminstry, returned bet are member; and Glasgow,
with 322,000, and more thaa 20,000 eleemrs, only reternsd
two repremotatiga. This was not all the ease for re-
distributioo, for that case became very mush stamp, if we
examined the list of boroughs with ref. retire to the Menem
or dimiautioo of their population and number of electors
✓em 1,132. There were 18 boroughs whose population had
diminished sine* 1832, and they returned 23 members. In 11
of the largest nanufmturiog towns in the north the number
of 10/. electors bad increased 178 per sent., so that them
was a disproportion not only with regard to the relative
population end importance of them smell boroughs es com-
pared with the large places, but ft was • dispropoaou con-
stantly Meressiog. He would take dos Mope budges.
not from any invidious motive, but berawe it eat the
smallest of the boroughs returning two members. Moulton
in 1831 had a population of 3,509, and it was now 3,301.
There had been a decrease of 208 in the population, and
there were now only 348 voters. Yet Bonito's, by returning
as many members' bad as much influence in the house as
Manchester, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glaapow, and Dublin.
Anomalies like these could only be defended on the er.died
that they formed part of a great settlement which had
workel well, and which it was not expedient to disturb.
(Opposition cheers.) Owes re-open that settlement and there
was not a vestige of an argotneet which could be urged in
favour of maintaieing the existing distribution of seats.

I (Hear, bear.) This Cad been receinieed in 'mime reform
Mr. DT/TeON agreed with the bon. and learned member
bills as the obvious end necessary part of me
with respect to dockyard artisans. When a bill visa ta-
practical question in any reform was not whe-
troduud for the purpose of enfranchising the working 1 The real and
I thee a man who lived in a 71. or 8/. house was to have •
classes he could not understand why the most intelligent
portion of them should be excluded. He agreed with the I vote, or whether this or that borouge erase° return a mein.
hon. member for Salisbury that when they brought in a be to parliament ; the thing was to nuke such a balance
I
bill to make so greet a reduction in tbe county
political power as should (ably represent all the different
a
roßugehwfooranocohveraefraasidwagof
wproorposbioesdrote,yorcoudlaaniaotivetztop ; interests of the tsunaundts• and above all as should strike
• fair bilance between the progressive and conservative
i element in the mantra,. (Opposition cheers.) Sirce the
etrerebe.
itntaaptpriooo,rodbuttbasaahraebing
1 Reform Bill of 1832, whoa it was a question of reform or ihtheemetatotisetficadilaiedhwebefoirne the breoupiTe.
revolution, could any one say that tbe conservative elemest
'bad unduly preponderated? The fact wee, abuse after
the average of the large and small boreagba. they had 28
abuse bad been reformed to that extent that there was no
per cent of the representation in their handy. With regard
to the saying. barite franchise he did not see what clue of 1
, abuse—(oh, oh, and opposition cheere)—no great practical
men would avail themselves of it. Few working
for
rn
twco:ldyeaaro,ffordaloto
the
ee in 1832. There was no
much question as the reform of the Coen-laws or Catholic,
P smaller elan
asoassivoifop
trades-
! abase of the order which prevailed
men would not deposit such • sum in one, 1 Emancipation. Where was the practical question aeon
when they could make 12 or 15 per root. by which the public opinion of the country was not
employing the money in their business. There- in entire accordance with the opinions as repre-
fore, probably the only persons who would qualify them-' aeuted by the house? rive bad • system which
selves in this way would be people with money who wished I worked admirably well, and they were asked to re.
to procure a vote without being put to the trouble of open it. That was all very well for thou who
acquiring it in the ordinary way. No doubt there would belonged to the school of the bon. member for
be time to ennsider the bill, but at present he confessed ; Birmingham—(Opposition chase)—who did not believe
he was apprehensive of the result if the measuie wag as he (Mr. Lain) did in the admirable workieg
auvied out in its integrity. I
of our system, but who only saw in it in offensive monopoly
Sir H. HOARE thought there would be no danger from I betaking and injurious to the great masses of the comma-
I nity
each an admission of the working classes to the franchise as . It was all very well for such persons to
the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed. As a single- re-epen teeTenqdi
iequestion to excite agi n.tatio He (Mr.
barrel measure the bill was excellent, but it platted them Ito assiste ° ng the fortress, did not intend
them in inserting the point of thelever
very mush in the petition of a man who had • carriage I was intended to topple d
weeeated to him without harges. (la laugh.) He therefore head. 0 • own the hattleasente upon his
( ?poodle° cheers.) Who ciuld doubt for •
hoped there would be • positive promise of a farther bill own
next session. So far as this bill went it would answer I moment that if an extrusion of the suffrage were passed
I this session there would be a demand next wile"
the utter
'
tbe expectations of moderate men--of those who distribution of tents based upon facts of for
a "ter
-
wished to see every clue fairly represented. One . disproportion between the large theee
defect of the present system was the inside- Thu balance
lance between the conservative and practises' we ele-
quate representation of the portion of the population me tin the country depended very materially on the mode
who resided in counties. He thought the bill ought to have men tin
in which the seats were redistributed. But if the whale of
ieoluded the redistribution of seats, and unless some die- ,
tied pledge was given of an intention to int:educe • bill ,
cuingthe changes were working in the same direction of strength-
next session on that subject, he should feel it his duty to the democrat.c or progressive, mid weakening the cote
wrest:re element, did we not risk that which bad worked
oppose it. so well! There was • principle which was recognised
Lord R. MONTAGU said the Chancellor of the Exch.- throughout in our English constitution—namely, that the
quer was not content with framing a bill which he thought franchise was • trust and not • right (Heir, bear.) If it
would be beneficial to the country, sod give satisfaction to I
I was said the franchise was aright, limit it as we mister It
the classes he proposed to enfranchise, but be brought for- . would land us at universal suffrage ; but say it was a trust,
ward • piece of a bill, and then tern fled them with the '
and it followed that it was a trust to be exercised by that
prospect of a fresh measure being proposed every session, , portion of the community who might be presumed to act
so that from year to year the country would be kept in • ; upon solid sense and reflection rather than upon noon-
state of agitation. It was utterly wrong and mischievous I 'Wend impulse. The 101. franchise did chew that line in
to be thus constantly tinkering the constitution. Thatl a general way ; but if it was made 71., upon what prim-
ers, one objection to the bill ; another wag that it virtue ' ciple could be based • resistance to a demand for 61.1
disfranchised the agricultural clan. The effect of the 14T. That was a demand which had already been made, and it
occupation franchise in counties would be this. In his was one that would be irresistible if the present bilinueed,
county there were five large towns, only one of which was • because there was no such difference between 6/. and 71. ea
borough, and if the bill passed, the representation in the there was between 71. and 101. Indeed, the only orpiment
other four would be banded over from the farmers to the small • against it was that of the Chancellor of the &cheque
shopkeepers. Bat the right hon. gentleman went farther—l when he said that he receded from the consequences.
because be proposed that 141. leaseboldere in boroughs ; (Opposition cheers.) The figures of the right honourable
should have the right to vote both for boroughs and coon- ! gentleman showed that he would give ban the borough re-
ties. It almost seemed as if the Chancellor of the Exashe- presentation to the working claws ; but if we already had
quer bad sat down to devise • plan for sweeping away the ;an elastic franchise which admitted 26 per cent of the
agricultural constituency. The right hon. gentleman said I working classes, and under which thst proportion was
the working alarm were entitled to some share in the go- I year by year steadily increasing, he di I not see why the
unmask What share could they have! If the power of right hen. gentleman, recoiling from the consequences of a
' the clang whom be proposed to enfranchise had prevailed ge franchise, should seek in hot haste to adopt a Iran-
within the last few years, we should have been plunged into , chi* of 7/. (Hear, bear.) Their object should be to admit
interminable ware. There were doubtless some evi. is the ' the genuine working claw., such as were to be found in the
present system, such, for instance, as the corrupt practices large towns ; but in order to do that, there was no need to
at elections, which were degrading to the country. I lower the household qualification—a step athlete in three
bet how did be propose to deal with them? . oases out of four, would not attain the specific object they
Oee greet objection which he (the noble lord) took to this bad in view, while it would tend greatly to deteriorate the
bill V/111. that they did not know the whole of the scheme ! representation, If be were in a teeter, room, be would
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to propose ; constructa diagram in which he would mark those places
they had only heard a part of it, and they were come- ; in which there were most working men amongst the electors,
(meetly very much in the position a man would be is who, I and thou in which there was meet corruptioe. If that
if he intended to build • house, and on asking an architect were done it would be found that the two curves coincided
fora plan, was told that he could not have a plan of the in a most remarkable manner. (Opposition cheers.) It was •
whole house, but he might have a drawing of the belfry- matter of notoriety that if they greatly extended the frau-
(Laughter.) Another great objection be had to the hiltless ebbe they would greatly increase the expense of election..
that it would swamp the agricultural class by bringing the I (hear, hear.) He would appeal to the house whether, if
franchise so low. Had the right hon. gentleman brought is I any one hid to guarantee the oort of an election, be would
a bill proposing • redistribution of seats be might have re- not prefer it to be for a place where there were 3.000 or
moved a part of the evil by uniting certain towns that had i 4,000 electors rather than one where there were 20,030.
now no representatives : but as the bill stood those towns ; (Hear, hear.) There we/ another matter deserving of con-
that had no representatives would swamp the agricultural I sideration, and that was what might be called the moral
constituencies. (Hear, hear.) aspect of this question. Our great object in extending the
Mr. HANBURY remerked that he believed the bill franchise to the working elegies was to make it a kind
brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would of moral lever with which to elevate them. The
meet the wants of the large constituency he represented. house should hold out the suffrage as • premium
He was not afraid of the working men. (Hear, hear.) He on respectability, providence, and good conduct •
employed • large number of them, and his experience was but if they extended it in the way proposed:
that a more respectable and industrious clan did not exist. I they would at once pleathe 108,000 waking men who
Their object was not to advance democratic movements so bad attained the 101. franchise on the same level as those
as to impair the constitution ; on the contrary, they felt who bad not exercised the same industry and self-denial.
that the advantage they derived from the constitution was (Hear, hear.) And here was the great advantage of what
equal to that enjoyed by the upper and middle dame. were called "fancy franchisee." What, for 'tonsure could
He should reserve has opinion oo the details of the bill. have • better effect that a savings bank qualification ? At
Mr. LAING remarked that to his mind the bill that bad the same time he did not see why the name principle
been limiest forward that evening would reopen the great should not be extended to every ducriptiou of tangible
reform settlement of 1832 by a measure which on the few realised property. At all events the muter:do who had
of it would not afford a complete and final settlement of bought a six pound house was as worthy to have a vote as
the question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had that I his neighbour who rented a seven pound one. He would
evening made one of the most conclusive speeches he (Mr. I
keep the household (nubble pretty high, and seek to sup
I
Laing) bad ever heard, bat the oonclusion he had snivel Plament it with franchisee belied upon istelliguee and
at was different to that which tbe Chancellor of the Ex- i prudence. (Hear, hear.) Al a member of the moderate
chequer meant the house to come to, for it brought ' liberal party, be could not help expressing his disappoint-
moat forcibly home to his mind the impolicy 1 meat that the government should have proposed to deal
of the decision to which the government had come in i with the question piecemeal instead of by one comer:slue-
*stream:ling the measure at a period of the melon when I sive measure. Be thought that before they had disturbed
there was no time to give it a full and fair consideration. ! a settlement which had lasted so long they ought to have
(" Hear, hear," from the oppoeitioe.) The Chancellor of ; bestowed upon it more deliberation than they bad dope.
the Exchequer bad admitted that the rotting he had re- , (Hear, hear.) The wily reason which had been shown for
hued to heel only been procured so late that they were not the measure was certain pledgee which had been given
in • complete priated form even in big own hands before some years ago by certain ministers upon insufficient and even
last Friday evening, and he (Mr. Laing) could easily believe erroneous grounds. For his own pert, the only pledge which
that if those retorts had been in the possession of the go- I be (Mr. Laing) had ever given was one to afford a general
vernment a sufficient time for deliberative examination, • support to the government of Lord Palmerston, sad that
they must have led to a very opposite conclusion to that at Pledge he would keep, in the spirit as well as to the letter.
which the government bad arrived, for if therewas one thing (Opposition cheers.) Be would ask whether. if Lord Pal.
which thaw returns showed more clearly than anotberit was menton were now alive and unfettered by pledgee— teen
that the for a redistribution of seats was much of '‘ oh" from below the gangway, answered by loud
cheers from the opposition benches)—whether, after MUD-
stronger than was supposed, and much weaker than was
tively studying the returns on the table of the house, be
super:cad for an extension of the franchise. (Hear, hear.)
would have been a party to bringing forward a measure to
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was as high an au-
thority as be could quote on a question of this kind, had lower the franchise without a redistribution of seats, :red
maid in 180 e io sivocatirg the reform bill brought for- he would have whetherreopened an .
agitation
the end of
he could foresee, a measure which could never
ward by the government of which he was a member, it was which , , rby . . ,
estimated that of the 450,000 which now constituted the ! prove a nom one I (Cheers and drum bon.)
borough constituency, about one-ninth belonged to the I The Depere-Seesxze having left the house for a few
labouring class, either as freemen or soot and lot voters, minutes for refreshment, on his return,
while only here and there were there soy of that Captain Grosvenor and Mr. Bakes rose together. There
class who were 101. occupiers. Clearly, then, there were loud calls for Captain Groevegior, which completely
was in 1860 a ooevietion in the mind of the right hen. drowned the voice of Mr. Baines every time he tried to
gentleman that the 10e franchise under the Reform speak, and a scene of considerable excitement occurred,
Bill of 1832 admitted only the smallest friction of the work. during the whole of which the two bon. members remained
ing classes to a voice in the representation. But what was standing. After about five minutes.
' disclosed by the remarkable returns now before the house 1 Mr. DISRAELI roe and mid—Sir, it has been the ens-
They showed that in bringing forward the bill of 1860 the tom of this house teat two members should not be on their
government based their measure on a calculation that was legs at the same time' and it is your privilege, Mr. Deputy-
emcee= to the extent of nearly 3°° ' cent., for it was Speaker, to indicate the member who is to address the
now shuns that of 136,000 voters 108, I 1 I belonged to the house.
very clue—the 10/. householder alas—amongst whom the
The DEPUTY-SPEAKER—Tbe boa menitee foe Leeds
Chancellor of the Exchequer stated there was only a
way the first to rise, and I indict:el it to him before I left
casual voter here and there to be found. Surely the the
chair.
re-opening of the great reform settlement of 1832
Mr. BAINU3 ensured the boo. sad gallant capiaio that
should be made on tomethieg approaching to accurate i°• be should not have remained standing had he not lilt cier-
formation. The only valid reason he bad heard for re-open-
tain that he bad been indicated by the Deputy -Speaker,
ing that settlement was that it was too exclusive, and did
ea ,
therefore it
wool, here hue improper in
him
to
have
not give the workaig classes a fair shire in the represents- a
resumed hie gest. He would not, however, interpose between
tion ;bat these returns gave a conclusive answer to that
I the hoe. member sae the house long. et seem to bins that
argumeet. It 101.1 shown that the proportion of the work-
•not o i ifiemit
ling classes who were on the reenter was e the boo. member for Wick bad proved too much. One half
his speech went to show that there was no grievance to be
aswassupposed, but amounted to 26 per cenk of the
remedied and no change needed, and the other half con-
whole mama er of borough electors. There was no doubt, rig
sated of an exposure of the absurd anomalies of the distri
the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad said, that the
bastion of teats If his conclueon thatthere -
was no prae-
number of the working ceases admitted under the eau
grievance were
correct, wbat did he mean by bringing
10/. franchise was very unequal,
and it appeared beforel the house these anomalies for redrew! Th. had
Things
that the increase in the numbers of working men who had . by .. .
been said the hon. member which were said in 18.32 by
been admitted under that franchise had mostly taken place
him he. In 1830 the Duke of Wait,
in the great and growing towns. In the metropolitan di it greater men t gem
it said that no conceivable form of representation could ex-
trce' the proportion wee over one-half, in Manchester i
teed in excellence and adaptation to its end the then
was 27 per sent., in Tedford 34, in Sheffield 26, is Wolter-
existing
form. Reform. however took which
hampton 24, and in Nottingham and Leine
40 pee cent. .t time
was _ ,
be place,
pronounced to a complete
The proportion wee peculiarly large in towes which had al "a
made rapid progress during the last few years, although revolution calculated to bring down all the influence of
education and position at the feet of the uneducated and
they might not be seats of manufacturing industry, sad
Ignorant elegies. That was said es the conservative ride
antler this heal in Brighton, Cheltenham, Birkenhead,
to of the bowie, and they were now told by the hen. member
and Southampton the proportion ranged from 32 _for Wick, and in a speech last year by the bon. member for
50 per met. This brought him to iiiot fallacy
eer, who Caine, that the present house bad been • model legislative
on the part of the Chancellor of the
said that the proportion of working men was not greater body for the last thirty years and upward.. He (Mr.
Bases) admitted that • I had been
many practies grievances
than in 18e2. Why was this! Because in 1832 there wag
a large body of freemen, scot and lot voter., me removed, but mainly in consequenceof the infusion of
the popular spirit • into that assembly caused by the
ancient right voters, who bad is a great measure ...,
.1 bo
mama
1832, which wag called by n
disappeared from the register, their plice. having been out
taken by the or w class to which i.e (Mr. Labile) members opposite a revolutior are measure : and his belief
• that if te extended I further they would
had referred. With regard to the redistribotion of W 4 ey eider t,e principle
bir
ore useful
seats how did the case sand? If they wiabel to tench ' effect great gene, and make that
.arsem m
.eal
t was net • peseta
this part of tbe eettlemeet of 1832. wag it possible to hewe i than it wee He askel beewtet 1 .
the
work.
a stronger case than was dive'elivd by the parliementery grievzoc.: .tl at altos 1112 the pr of nig
returns! Those uterus showed that there were 40 . claimea who had a borough vote had gunk fromoo 31 to 21 per
boroughs with a population of less than 7,000 each, an cent., and was it not a practical grievancetbe.t w bpit
storage of about 400 electors, it united porjetien of had beta io estracalhihri tooprovotnent IA file

c