The Express.
London, England, 1860-06-23 00:00:00

(Stamped id. Additional.) [T WOP ENCE.

!Gunny, and • fidelity which made us the envy of all
surrounding nations, the House of Commons remained in
official ignorance of the Lords' proceedings. AU the pro-
eeediogs of the House of Commons were public. The
House of Lords bad regularly the votes and proceedings of
theilouse of Commons laid on their table, and in their de-
bates constantly referred to those proceedings and those
votes, whilst they, the House of had
got nothing to look at, if they wanted to know
what was taking place in the House of Lords.
They were in short obliged to appoint a com-
mittee to search the journals. In his opinion that house
ought to beplacedon an equality with the Lords, and should
have the proceedings of the latter regularly laid on their
table, so that in important cases, like that of the Paper
Duties Bill, action might be taken without any unnecessary
delay. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMEBBTON—My hon. friend will recollect that
this house has two sources from which it receives docu-
ments upon which it is intended that action shall take
place. One is from the crown, when papers are presented
by command, and the other is its own order that the docu-
ments shall be produall, Now the proceedings and
entries and journals of the noun of Lords are not in the
possession of the crown. The crown could not authorise
any responsible minister of the crown to lay the proceedings
of the House of Lords on the table of this house ; further, I
apprehend it would be contrary to the reciprocal usage of
the two houses to order either to produce its proceedings,
and therefore I cannot see how we could have the proceed-
logs of the Lords laid en our table. My hoc. friend is however
aware that by reei courtesy between the two houses the
votes and • • cd sash are communicated to the
.411""w"liit
•
f
The
durtri • . I.l' 7.. ; .1; aloes tte7oirse: ;Fa
would be perfectly easy to bays cos of these copies laid on
the table. It is quite true that the Lords initiate proceed-
ings on votes which are laid on their table, nod we might
take the mine course, but I apprehend that it is not the
custom of the House of Commons to found proceedings on '
documents of which it his not been officially put in posses-
sion. My hon. friend rays that through the newspapers
every one knows what has taken place, and no
doubt he is correct, but that would apply much
moss extensively than to the particular case he
points out, and when we intend to take measures we
require to have dosumeata produced through address to
the crown, or by some equally. formal means. I should
very much doubt, therefore, even if the arrangement to
which I have alluded took place, that the copy thus laid
on the table could be made the foundation of any serious
proceeding. If we were to dispense with the formal pro-
ceeding of searching tho journals, I do not see that much
time would be saved, as that does not take up much time,
and by neglecting it we should lose the certainty of having
• correct transcript. The 4eaker can easily arrange to have
• copy of the Lords' proceedings laid on our table, and we
had better leave the matter in his hands, but for the pus
poems of ulterior proceedings, I think the plan of searching
the journals sad.teldrig extracts is preferable.
SEIZURES BY NEAPOLITAN VESSELS UNDER

Titißitififik- !LAW.

Mr. GRlFFlTldaskeer the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether any account bad been received that
a Neapolitan frigate had captured two vessels, presumed
to be g reinforcements to Garibaldi, by hoisting
as too and offering to tow them into Palermo,
it having got them in tow, she then hoisted Neapo-
litan colours and steered for Gaeta; sod whether, if so,
such use of the Brithih flag would be permitted to the Nea-
politan government.

But he (Sir R. Peel) contended that Switzerland had not
been consulted, and if this country had been mouthed it.
had given its opinion without obtaining the sanctio4 of that
house. He believed be was in a position to say mast posi-
tively, from a very high and important authority, that in
the month of February an offer or made to the Minister
for Foreign Affairs to the effect that if they pleaud.the
government of France were prepared to cede those Purim",
adjoining the Lake of Geneva, in the hopethatbythatocesion
of the territory bounding the Lake of Geneva Nome arrangement
might be made for the cession of the rest. What he Imbed
next to remark we that the question of the casket of Nice
and the Lower Savoy to France wee a matter which did not
in the least affect us, and that one power might cede to
another a part of its territory without infecting the law
of nations. But when they came to cede territory which
was guaranteed by the seven great powers of Europe in the
most sacred and solemn manner, such as the neutralised
provinces of Faucigny, Chablais, and Genevois, he (Sir R.
Peel) said it was degrading to the councils of this country,
and insulting to the character of England, to allow such a
step to be taken without meeting it with the most serious
and determined protest in the name of the people of Eng-
land. (Hear, beer.) Now he begged to tell the noble lord
that he hoped he would rise in his place and say that he
bad not received such a communication as he (the hon.
baronet) had alluded to. To refresh the memory of the
noble lord, he would refer him to the despatch written by
Lord Cowley on the 9th of February last, relative to this
subject, wherein he told the noble lord the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, that the Emperor of the French
was pmpared to cede those provinces in the hope that
the whole question of the annexation of Savoy and Nice
Zet Zeiggeeerded. lfe was sorry to le the
'6 twee. (Cheen.j 'Theltouse
was aware that he bad recently been in the neighbourhood
where these transactions had been going on, and we in
this country could not realise what were the feelings of
those people, with the enemy positively at their gates and
from them their rights and liberties. He had seen
Wein (people. They were brave, determined, and desirous
of enjoying the popular institutions which they still had.
But they knew from the teachings and experience of his-
tory that the progress of France on that side of Genevoix
was fatal to a very great portion of the district and terri-
tory of Switzerland, and that if France once obtained pos-
session of the Lake of Geneve, the independence, and, he
might say, the very existence of that part of Switzerland
would be absolutely and permanently annihilated. (Hear.
hear.) He saw only last night a meeting in London
of the whole colony of Swiss. lie perhaps was
the only Englishman present, but he could not help feeling
in his heart the sentiment' which animated those wen when
they new the standard of Switzerland floating over the chair
of the President, and when they knew from the lips of their
minister the danger in which their country was cetl. He
addressed a few simple words to them, but he could not
help feeling from the bottom of his soul the utmost sym-
Cthy for those people, whose rights and libertio• were, to
mind, permanently menaced by the cruel hypocrisy of
France. Meer, hear.)
TRANSFER OF LAND.
Mr. SCULLY could see no objection to the suggestion
which had been made by the hon. member for tuisbury,
that the minutes of the proceedings of the HOuse. of Lords
should daily be laid upon the table of that house and circu-
lated amongst its members. He wished to esk'the right
hon. gentleman the Attorney-General when he expected to
be able to introduce his intended bill to amend the law re-
lating to the transfer of real estates, and whether her Ma-
jesty'egovernment would consent to fix some early day for
the purpose.

TEE RONAN STATES.
Sir J. ACTON asked whether the noble lord the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs was prepared to lay upon the table
(*idea of extracts from the despatches% received from Lord
Lyons in 1856, 1856, and 1657, respecting the government
and the condition of the Roman States.

Mr. B. COCHRANE said be understood on the 16th of
February that the noble lord at the head of the government
was prepared to maintain the neutrality of Switzerland,
and went on to state that the districts of Chablais and
Faueigny wore guaranteed under the treaty of Vienna, and
formed part of the guarantee of the neutmlity of Switzer-
land. He wished to know whether the noble lord was pre-
pared to early out the assurance he gave to the house on
that occasion.

Lord J. RUSSELL said—The first question asked me is
that which was put by the bun. gentleman the member for
Devises with respect to the accounts supposed to be re-
ceived that a Neapolitan frigite had captured two vessels
presumed to be carrying out reinforceineuts to Garibaldi. •
The government have received intelligence that two ships
have been captured by a Neapolitan vessel ; but with regard
Ito the further port of the question, as to hoisting English
colours, that account I have wet, in the newspapers,
and also an account that those vessels were cap-
tured by some person in the Neapolitan frigate saying
I they were French vessels ; but whether there was
any truth in either of those accounts I cannot
nay, for her Majesty's government have nut received any
correlnation of either of them. I nos Celle W the ma&
tion poi, to me 11 tare Lon. baronet the member for 'ram.
worth. First, as to his complaint that I am not ready In
this house to answer questions. I believe I am generally' in
this house, and ahead every day, at a quarter-pest four
o'clock, to answer questions. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps the
hon. baronet himself does not attend so frequently at that
I hour. (Hear, hear.) Anybody acquainted with the Foreign-
! office must know that there are times when questions of
considerable urgency arise which take up time just at the
moment when one is preparing to do some other duty. It
happened yesterday that just as I was about
to set out for the house the Under-Secretary had
something to communicate which he thought war of great
importance respecting papers to be laid upon the table of
this house, and I stopped discussing the matter with hint
until the time had passel for answering questions. (Cheers.)
The only question which was then on the notice paper was
that of the lion. baronet (Sir J. Acton) with regarel to the
papers and correspondence in 1.656 and 1857. That was not
a very urgent question. But besides that, I desired that
notice should be sent to the hon. baronet to say that we
had the papers, and giving him the form in which he should
move an address to the crown whereby he might obtain the
papers. Perhaps, as the question Wu been put to me, he
did not correctly understand that message. He may
move any day he likes for those papers, and
he may have them whenever they are moved for.
With regard to the question of the right hon. baronet re-
specting foreign affairs, which he Welts very urgent, I
would observe that Lie best course would have been to do
' what other hon. members do—namely, to give formal notice
of the question he intended to ask. (Hear, hear.) If he
omits to do that or hears !something in the course of the
day with regard to which he desires information, he might
have the courtesy to send me a note saying he is going to
ask a question, and I would certainly answer it to the best
of my ability. (Hear, hear.) Now it appears, omitting
ell matters respecting the Conspiracy Bill, which is hardly
a matter for present diiieuaidon, that the right
hon. baronet saw an account in the newspapers to
the effect that a note had been transmitted to this
country by M. Thouvenel, containing among other things a
very strong hint that France would nut submit to any dimi-
nution of the territory of which she was now in possession
—namely, the territory of Savoy and Nice. I could nut
have answered that question yesiterday, because I had no
knowledge of any such note (rem Thouvenel • but at
half-past three o'clock to-day I saw the French Ambassador,
and he placed in my hands a copy of the French note, and
there is not one word in the whole of that despatch about
the statement in the newspapers that France would not
consent to any diminution of territory. (Hear, hear.) The
French despatch is to this effect. It is stated iu the treaty
of Turin that Fran will come to an understanding
with the other powers of Europe respectiiig the neutralised
portions of Savoy, and according to the view of the French
government that understanding is to be arrived at by en-
deavouring to reconcile the second article of the Crotty of
Turin with the P2nd article of the treaty of Vienna. Tho
French note proceeds to say that ti. iy be done in one of
three modes. Either that the powers who signed the
treaty of Vienna may meet in conference with the Foreign
Minister of France, or that hiciitical notes may be en-
changed, the French note stating that France is ready totake
on herself the whole of the obligations which Sardinia was
engaged to perform during the time she had Savoy. That an-
swers the question put to rushy the hon. gentleman who spoke
last. (No.) The note states that France is ready to make
that territory part of the neutral territory of Switzerland in
the same manner as Sardinia had done. The third mode
would be by leaving to Fence and Switzerland to find such
a substitution for the former engage:inset as they might
mutually agree upon. Nell, the note goes on to say that if
there should be a conference most of the powers had alreiuly
said Paris would be the most convenient place in which to
hold it, and that it should be held upon the points to which
I have alluded. Such, air, is the note which has been given
to me to-day ; but, of course, her Majesty's government
have not yet given to it that attention which will enable
them to say in what terms their an.wer should be
couched. The whole question appears to me to rise
upon this. The great powers of Eurove are willing
to engage for a guarantee of that portion of Savoy bordering
upon Switzerland being left neutral, and to agree to its
being held as the rest of Savoy was by Sardinia. Sanlinia
was a power with whom the allied powers wi re readily agreed
to accept those terms, andymii might be quite sure, at all
events, that when all the allied powers sal engaged with
Sardinia on those terms, Switzerland was safe, and that the
engagement would be bustling to Sardinia. But the case is
very much changed when a great power like France conies
into possession of the territory held by Serdinia ; it is not
the same thing, though it is so represented by France,
though the words are the same, and though the technical
place the neutralised
engagement is the same. France soya, " We will undertake
wt.tok
territory
Ilwr theye ilaat:lt:a geh....rdmie
"matalidthat is an argument
more ttof 8'tihol"I'l once on this subject. But
that engagement, be it observed—because I regret that the
hos. baronet who speaks frequently suit with great ability
tspcos these matters' has not endeavoured to inform himself
mare accurately upon these points—is not that there shall
be so troops at any time iu the neutralist territory ; on

Me einbury, the specific enelmismentY that Swaim
in ems of war shall inememis Ibsl alatteheed teat-
key ; there/as implying very elm* that in a Mon of
rase thrthase troops are at liberty to meg, that NM-
tory. net, then, is the potionof Me miestlea,
We bed as opieirio— • very_ &ailed
as to the mode 10 whirl', the inermallea
bowleg shesdy taken place, and name bar* ableirml the
eamtoa of Savoy, such • substindion of the et
the treaty of 1815 could be mode, *Melt basis,
be ntidaetery to Switierland and faint • sidlielead sub-
stitute for the eugmeinent entered into by Sardiaia ; bug I
ate sorry to my that at no time, in my of our dietsimeiona
has France shown • disposition to accept that substitute
which seem. to IN to be the only one which would be mini.
Talent in point of emceed and security to what is provided
by the treaty of 1815. It is impossible for us, therefore,
to times ourselves satisfied, or to accept the
treaty of Turin as affording an equivalent and
substitute. (Cheers.) But the honourable baronet
aim- I don't know whether he really means it—that
we should not have given any opinion on the subject without
obtaining the sanction of the house. That is certaip:illutmocoet
of the usual way carrying on diplomatic corms •
(Hear.) We can only act as all ministers before us have
acted, by obtaining the consent of the crown to such dis•
patches and conimunkatioas as it is our duty to make, and
afterward. by submitting the papers to Me home, and
awaiting the result of any opinion the house may think it
right to express upon them. (Hear, hea:J4ennpapers on
this subject now form a considerable but I hope
very soon to place • considerable portion of , for in-
stance, those up to this time at beet, men the tilde of the
house, became France hewing new, accenting to her
own views, accomplished this emaszatlea, sad the
of Savoy and Nice be' sou amazed to Finnee--=
troops and French anthoettise having taken posemeiou of
them—eo far as that part of the matter is concerned, there
is at leant a mum, a period at which it would be conve-
nient to present the correepeodence to the home. A. to
the offer to which the hon. baronet alludes, that the
French government would give up Chablais and Faucigny
If we would consent to the cession of the rest of Savoy to
Trance, I can only my that the French government never
made any inch offer to the British government- (boatl—
oad if they had I do not think it would have been becoming
in us to have accepted it -(hear, I~)—but in point of fact
no such otter has been made. But what has taken place
has been correctly, represented by the hon. baroset—
namely. that in the early part of February the Emperor of
the French sal his ministers declared that the' were ready
to consent that Chablais and laucigny should become a part
of Switzerland ; but • very short time afterwards the Em-
pemr declared to • voluntary deputation which went to
Paris that he should not cement to what was called the dis-
memberment of Savoy, and that Chablais sad Paueigay
should not be separated from the rest of the annexed terri-
tory. Lord Cowley spoke to the French Minister of Fo-
reign Affairs upon that subject, sad be was told that the
Emperor had been willing, if the population of those tent-
tories should menet t, to cede three territories to Switzerload,
but there had been such • ntroug diainclinatioo—so strong
a repugnance—shown to being parted from the rest aet sem
that the Emperor had found himself obliged to p
without that addition to Switzerland. (The noble lord uttered
these words in a Moe which elicited some laughter and
cheers.) Lord Cowley then mid that be did not think the
engagement with the rest of the powers of Europe had been
fullreill.e M. Thouvenel said he thought Lord Cowley very
unreasonable, and that all the other powers of Europe
seemed to think that the despatches written by the French
government were satisfactory upon that point, and that
the engagement was amply satisfied. I have now, sir
answered tbe question of the honourable baronet.
But he goow on to make some comments presum-
ing on certain facts the truth of which he has not se-
°Detained. He says if the Preach government had made
that communication in the terms we have seen
in the newspaper it would be very insulting
on the part of the French govern merit ; but as
the fact is not so, the whole of that matter falls to
the ground. The remaining gumboot for the British govern-
ment to consider amounts to little more than this—bow
we on lest uae our Whammy to maintain the neutrality of
Switserland, sod whether there are any terms which
Switzerland is likely to sees* and which can now be pro-
posed But if thereat, sot any such terms, and if thereat,
no such terms offered, further this the undertaking to which
I have alluded, viz., that the same nt should be
undertaken by France towards Bwitue land mod towards
Ems" which was undertakes by &Wink, the British go-
venuaest sea only my, and they will say in the meet forma
and @oleos steamer, that they do not colander that the im-
postor' of the TM article of the Tresty of Vienna can be
tecounled with the Treaty of Turin. (Cheers.)
THE ARMY.

Colonel DICKriON called attention to the present date
of the army to the United Kingdom, contending that, in the
present .range .4 Europe, we required • larger fume, and
suggesting MONIS by which the additional force could be
raisrd.
Mr. M. HERBERT replied to Colonel Dickson, explaining
in much detail the Mitts of the army, and the mr...sorm
taken for it. improvement in number and condition.
The motion (Of soll.sirnment wanapeed to.
8Ut41NE.44 OP THE HOUSE.

. .....
The CH ANCELLOit of the EECHNI,Eft mid he
feud it is reference to the !trio° to be laid fur
pan boorsees, if Is matter was to be disposed of daring
sloe present sanicen. that they should set promptly. On
the 6th of July tho se. lieensos IWOUI.I term to ron,
and he therefore proposid to take that subject on Monday
asat.