The Express.
London, England, 1860-06-29 00:00:00

al7no?w. FORCE (INDIA) BILL,

Oa the ostler el tieday for the Wooed reading of this bill,
Mr. A. HILLS wee tome,* an amendment. He thought
parliament bad • right to know whether say well-developed
ethane had been prepared by the pffrarimeed by which the
rights of parties wouldbe reepedeA, and by which the mili-
tary occupation of India init be insured, bemuse, in fasts
they had en_
_prodion. of that sect belare them. 11 they
poised the bell through a second reading, they would be
doing an sot which would enable the government to suspend
this matter for two year. it appeared to him that the
right hon. gentlemen should have bona fide propounded to
parliament his views as to the mode in which the question
wee to be settled, and the house would then have deliberated
fairly upon the mode in which an army must be kept up in
India, so se to retain for us our empire in that country. He
for one must enter his emphatic protest against a course
which involved an alternative either of delay or of • most
dangerous and unconstitutpmel precedent. For these rea-
sons, therefore, he begged to move his amendment that the
bill be read a second tune that day three months.
Sir E. COLEBBOOKE seconded the smendment, ob-
serving that he should not have done so if be had not
felt strongly the danger of the course in which her Ma-
jesty's government were about to embark.
Mr. T. 0. BARING defended Sir C. Wood post the
charge of not having consulted the Council of India in this
matter, which, he observed, was a mere technical objection,
the opinions of the members of the conned being knows
and before the house. He justified, likewise, the manner
in which this question had been brought under the cos-
sideration of parliament, and then proceeded to discuss
in detail the objections to the abolition of • local Eu-
ropean force in India, insisting that there would not
he the slightest difference in training sad education
for the Indian service between the officers of the local
force and those of the line. The plan chalked out by Sir
C. Wood, it was said,would interfere with the power of the
Governor-General of India ; but he denied the force of this
objection, and denied also that the change would aagmaat
the patronage of the Horse Guards. An opinion had been
attributed to Lord Cornwallis in favour of a lead form of
Europeans in India; but Lord Cornwallis, in 1794, bad ac-
tually submitted a plan for the amalgamation of the two
forces. rte called upon the house to reject the amid-
west.

ILr. BAILLIE oomplidned that the house should Weaned
upon to decide this question when it was admitted by the
government that the hail not decided upon the details
of the plan of amalgamation they proposed to carry oat.
In considering this question as regarded the interests of our
Indian empire, be expressed his belief, founded upon rea-
sons which he explatas4, that the expense attesting the
proposed change had been very much understated by Sir C.
Wood ; and he suggested that, if the Itill passed, the War.
office would deal with a large amount of Indian revenue,
which would be exempt from the check of • parliamentary
manai in revision, and his ion was that the War-office was one of
the worst departments in the public service. He
tusked whether t government had calculated the number
of men to be maintained in this country for the relief of the
corps in India and the colonies. He advised the house to
reject this bill, in order that it might have before it a bill
containing a distinct plan of amalgamation.
Sir H. VERNEY believed that all the authorities in this
country were on one side. There was but one opinion here
in favour of amalgamation, but it was evident that officers
of the imperial army bad more interest in the question
than others, and consequently their opinions ought to he
more easefully canvassed. His opinion being unfavourable
to the measure, he should support the amendment.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said the existing system was
at least based on common sense, and it had grown
up in the esteem of the natives. If they now de-
parted from it he felt that eventually they must be
driven beck to it again. It was much better that some
plan should be devised by which the views of the late go-
veniment could be earned out, and matters remain very
much as they were at present, than that we should rush
into a most reckless position of which we could not calculate
the vaults. If the present bill passed he should look
upon it as the most severe blow that could be
inflicted upon the Council of India. Why had that Council,
composed as it was of menof the largest Indian experience
and highest character, not been called upon to legislate oa
lodise natters ? It seemed to him that these gentlemen
were to be eventually put aside, and the government of
India to be taken into the hands of the cabinet itself for the
purpose of extending its political influence and patronage.
For all these reasons he should oppose the second reading of
the bill.
....

16. IfINNAIRD also objected to the present bill.
Mr. VANSIITART regretted that be could not support
the amendment of his hon. friend, being satisfied of
the absolute necessity of bringing the pity, the allowance, and
promotion of the two English armies *erring in India
into SOUDibthing like harmony.
Sir W. RUSSELL said that during the existence of the
East India Company there were many reasons for keeping
up two armies. But since that cowpony owed to exist
there were many masons why they diciuki came to the op-
posite conclusion. He was surprised the bows did mit, de-
tortoise to ham only one army at die time wham the go-
vernment of India was transferred to the Slaed he
regretted the noble lord opposite (Lord who
usually gave 'Feat attention to all mottoes with
India, had named his voice for the retention at the priment
army. There were throe meow urpd spied the maim-
=Um. As to the men becoming itorhamatieetk the medi-
cal tostimmy showed that the great amount of death
occurred among the young manila It vise thabwho
l
suffered, mid not the old ta of imisiowid •
tor amongst them the was very meal. Wear.
Thee es to obtaining • knowledge al the hails of the
people, he could state Gem femora lizporioses that it took
a very short time for the ma to do that. Beiddre. when
liniments wave ordered bones, the woo vine allowed to
volunteer to remain, sad tenendly from 100 to 100 men did

scs and joined the regiment going out, and they soon ini-
tiated the new regiment in the ways of the country. With
roped to the question of transit, he certainly thought the
alignments would be against it, sod he bad been led to be-
lieve that the objections would be insurmountable : but
when he saw only 130,000 f. in the estimates for the put-
, poem, he oonsidered the objection was at as end, and he wea
of opinion that the three argument. in favour of a
local force could not be mamboed. (Rear, hear.)
Then as to the reasons against it, he would observe that
a local army acquired • strong local influence and
feeling, and the men were not so strongly attached to the
mother country aa they ought to be in case a mutiny broke
out. The chief objection, however, was that it was impos-
sible to maintain a high state of discipline, where they
could not give men and officers a sufficient amount of mom-
patina. The men having little to do acquired bed habits,
and there was not that absolute obedience which ought to
exist in an army. In gallantry and bravery in the field the
local force was unsurpassed and it would be imporible
that any troops could excel them. (Hear, hear.) Another
argument in favour of the local army was that the officers
received • superior training, but since the staff appoint-
ments had been open to the royal army many had metaled
themselves for them, and it was very clear that when the
prime of the service might be obtained they would have
plenty of men willing to compete for them—(hear,
Lear
rutative be
difficulty in obtain wont sea img!"Yof&Yrs for hery
service than tU East India Company, and ea to whether
Cm:Otin the maim Amid ha byeestority or
t the question had boon disposed of, Ll-
been shown that purchase virtually existed in the Indian
army. However, in that reaped, there would be so diffi-
culty in the way of the moisleamatloo of the two services.
As to another objection, that it would endanger the power of
the Governor-General in India, he might say that if that
would be so it would be • most serious objestion ; but he
did not believe that it would endanger his power, when all
the prizes of the service would be in his gift. (Hear, hear.)
There was one thing in favour of making the army one
royal army which bed not been noticed. An officer now
(mg out to India made himself acquainted with
the language, and be otherwise qualified himself
for the service • but after some time he might find
himself in bad health and obliged to give up the service and
return home. But under the new arrangement, such an
officer would be able to serve in Europe or in the colonies,
and thus the government would be able to rat M a valuable
soldier. (Hear, hear.) He understood that the native
army would be kept at the lowest possible amount, and he
thought that, instead of keeping up a native forte to do the
work of the royal army it would be better to keep only •
small native army, and let the royal army do the work
themselves. (Hear, heir.) Ceder such circumstances
there would be no force in India that could for a single hour
stand against 5,000 Europeans in the field. He had bad the
honour of serving under Lost Clyde, and they opposed
30,000 of the enemy with a smaller force than 5,000,
and were susaful, and many of those men
hail been drilled by themselves. If they reduced
the native army they would be able to do with a
smaller royal army. With 50,000 of each force they would
be able to hold India against the world. (Rear, hear.)
Another great advantage would be gained by the British
empire in having • large body of officers available at any
moment for any other part of` the world, and they would
be well acquainted with commissariat, and transport duties,
which could only be properly learned in India. (Hear,
hear.) tT pm the whole, he believed the army, up to thi
rank of major, would be pleased with the change, and above
that rank ho found that about one-half would be favourable
to the amalgamation. He would only add, that the Indian
army was composed of a highly honourable and intelligent
body of men, and their gallantry was beyond all praise. He
should vote for the second reading. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. FARQUHAR said he believed this bill was not
brought forward as • party question, but, though upon the
responsibility of the government, they left the question to
the impartial feeling of the house. He was bound to state,
however, that he had been much struck with the fact that
the right hon. baronet the Secretary for India had not con-
sulted his council. He thought that when the home trans-
ferred the government of India to the crown, they expected
the right boo. baronet would take the advice of the cometl
in such a case, suit it would have been much more satis-
factory if he had done so. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel HERBERT should give his cordial support
to the bill, bosom by the proposed amalgamation
the discipline of the European force would be main-
tained at a higher point than had ever yet been attained by
• local force, because the measure rendered combination
against the government teas likely to occur and much mom
readily dealt with when it did occur, sail IPICAUSO by m-
eouing to the natives of India the fell selveetegta and -bemo-
an d BOMA rule, the power of the government would not
only be supreme, but undisputed. (Cheers.)

Yr. BUXTON trusted that the house would remember
that the Council of India were strongly against the scheme
of the government, ss well as the tanned of Calcutta, in-
cluding Mr. Wilma ' • that it had been condemned by Lord
Ellenbotough, Lord Canning, and Sir John Lawrence ; that
the late government had been in favour of • local force, and
the present government had been of the same °pinkie lest
year. He argued upon sanitary, financial, and other grounds
m opposition to the bill.
Mr. HORSMAN observed that no doubt the question as
to the expediency of maintaining • local European army
was very important, and one on which authorities were
very much divided. But there were two prelimi-
nary questions—whether the house was fairly treated
in not having before it all the necessary information, and
whether it was prepared to adopt a mine so novel of
carrying out so great a change, involving questions of
principles mod details, not by • well-considered legislative
act, but by an abstract resolution, the beginning and end of
all parliamentary proceediw, upon • measure that would
transfer to the Horse Guards a large amount of patronage,
and revolutionise the government of India. In examining
the reasons assigned by Sir C. Wood for a change of
eicz...Lpon this question, connected with the mutiny,
him with disingenuousness, and with abusing
the 71117e000 of the house. He elated, of his own
knowledge, and pledged himself to prove, that there were
documents on the subject produced as complete, which
were only est:la-to, important passages hating been taken
out of them. He complained of details of the government
scheme which had been kept back, but which were of great
constitutional importance. There was the question of
patronage, of the influence, power, and authority that
would be given to the military department, and there was
the question of expense. These were pointa which in-
volved the question whether there should be one supreme
bead or a doable government in India, and the house was
simply asked to repeal an set of parliament, without any
plan, and against the unanimous protest of the Council of
i India.
Mr. S. HERBERT, in reply to Mr. Horsman denied that
the government bad withheld information, ind that the
house was asked to adopt an abstract resolution : the sub-
' 'ltVerLd and Obefore ti.eh;loho"rse Gluardsa was agabinsilli theildeark.surrated
Sir C.
Horsman, declaring that there was no intention whatever of '
I altering the relations between the Horse Guards and the
Governor-General of India. With respect to the question
of • to al army, he confessed that he had had ;meat diffi-
culty in arriving at • conclusion • his bias had been in fa-
vour of a local army ; but he lad at length become con-
vinced that the measure of the government afforded a satis-
factory solution of the question. One of the reasons which
had swayed his opinion, as it had materially influenced that
of Lord Clyde, was the fact of the mutiny in the local corps.
He disclosed the arguments and opinions for and against
the maintenance of a local European force and upon the
sanitary part of the question and acclimatisation he cited
the evidence of scientific men, showing the destructive
effects of long exposure to a tropical climate. He replied
to the objectice of Mr. Harman, founded upon an appro.
hension that the Hone Guards was going to take all the
Indian patroaage, and gave explanations to show that the
1 Horse Guards would not obtain the vast amount of patron-
age he supposed,
Mr. RICH nosed the adjournment of the debate. (Cries
of "Divid•,7 end gpiseat uproar.)
Lord PALI IMMN said he hoped the house would
come to a decision tonight—(hear, bar)—a. the question
had been fully discussed. His must certainly apnoea the
nation.
_Whims.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY treated the house would consent
to the adjournment. (Cries of "Divide, divide.") lie
thought there were many grounds for the adjournment. He
contended a question of more importance had not been sub-
mitted to the House of Commons, and her Majesty'sgovern-
spent had not placed upon the table of the hui.se the=
which had been moved for. The Indian
entirely differed in opinion upon this question, and the
council ought to be heard. What right hoe. gentleman of
the cabiuet had ever spent • day in India ? He did not say
the opinion of the council should be the law of the house,
but the house had appointed them to attend to the concerns
of India, and had for that purpose excluded them from the
house to watch over the finances of that country ; sad com-
mon sense and decency would say they ought to have the
opinion of the council, as it might have some weight with
the bowie. The house was bound to keep faith with the
army in India, (Hear, hear.)
•

The house then divided, and the numbers were :
For adjourning the debate
Unjust 962-1.79
ifr. H. SEYMOUR hoped that the government would
not press forward the bill, considering that important pa-
psn to which reference had already been 11111110 had not yet
bean printed. He begged to move the adjournment of the
house.
Lord PALMERSTON trusted the hon. member would
not meat the motion, as there were other stages upon
which hon. members who wished to express their °poisons
could do so.
Mr. IiORSMAN said the house wanted the papers.
(Laughter.) They were moved for in February last, and be
wished to know why they had not been yet produced.
Sir J. PAIU.NOTON said he intended to support the ge-
neral fetedpie et UN bill, but he thought an opportunity
ought to be afforded to honourable members to express