The Express.
London, England, 1866-05-08 00:00:00

a r, I

. .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not
think that is ever made the subject of a previous under-
standing. Matters take their natural course on that day.
(A laugh.)

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.—REDISTRI-
BUTION OF SEATS BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro-
oeeded to explain the provisions of the bill, premis-
ing that his remarks would be divided under

three heads—the details of the redistribution scheme,

the exterwion of boundaries, and the mode of pro.
tending with the whole subject. He reminded the
house that in reoent bills the seats necessary for rectifying
. .

the balance of representation had not been obtained
by the extinction but by the limitation of the repre-
sentation of small boroughs, and, in discussing the
merits of these constituencies, he came to she con-
clusion which he illustrated from recent expe-

Turning to the subject of boesidaries, the right hon. gen-
Bernier laid Vial there was notlisosition to disturb ex-
isting boundaries. It was proposedto enact, first, that
wherever the municipal area did not coincide with the par-
liamentary men, the latter should be extended to effect that
object ; and, secondly, that hereafter parliamentary boun-
daries should follow the local rule ; that is, if any borough
was enlarged for local purposes, it should be enlarged for
perliamentary purposes also. In regard to procedure ion
the bills—if leave was given to bring in this bill, it would
Fer that the terms of the recent amendment were com-
plied the whole scheme of the government being
fore the house. More, however, was asked in the
debate ; some guarantee was asked that the redistribution
of seats should be dealt with by the same parliament as
dealt with the Franchise Bill. He pointed out that in
order to carry out all the measures it would be necessary
to have en autumn session -, and stated that the object of
the government was not to lose the present year in further-
inglegislation on reform. The government was ready to
adopt any suggestion, with the condition only that the
question was to go forward. If there was to be minute
controversy on the redistribution of seats, that probably
could not be effected in the present session, though the

rienee--that while they did not deserve condom-
nation by a special liability to corruption they bad not
earned any title to prolonged existence by discharging the
function of returning young men of promise to the House
of Commons. The government, therefore, had determined
to proceed on the principle of providing the means of ex-
tending to the large and growing communities of the
country that adequate share of representation which they
did not at present enjoy, simply by restricting the present
superabundant representation of small boroughs ; and
after considering carefullythe degree of leniency with which
the principle should be applied—remembering always that
the small boroughs could say now what they could not say
at the time of the reform bill of 1832—that their members
represented a real constituency—it believed it would beet
meet the claims of equity and the state of public opinion
by not extinguishing any borough, bat resorting in lieu to
the Scotch system of grouping. A strong reason for this
course was that experience had shown grouped
boroughs to be almost entirely free from corruption.
Having to take votes in a plurality of places was
found to be an obstacle to bribery. After some fur-
ther prefatory remarks, balancing the merits in this
respect of the bills of 1854 and 1860, he stated that
the bill proposed to obtain for disposal 49 seats by the
double operation of withdrawing one member from every
borough at present possessed of two with a population of
less than 8,000, and by grouping together as many of inch
boroughs as could be collected together with geographical
convenience. Groups having a population of under 15,000
would have one member, those above that limit two mem-
bers, and while the lowest in population would have 10,000,
the highest would have 21,000. Perhaps (continued the
right hon. gentleman) the house will desire, having thus
stated the principle on which these groups are formed,
that I should state what the groups are. (Hear.) They
consist of No. of
Member,.

Woodstock, Wallingford, and Abingdon
Liskeard, Bodmin, and Launceston
Totnes, Dartmouth, and Ashburton
Bridport, Honiton, and Lyme
Dorchester and Wareham

Malden and Harwich
Tewkesbury, Cirencester, and Eveshani

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government would be ready to go on. The government
would not prepoile a prorogation until the whole question
of the franchise and the redistribution of seats was
settled, if the bows desired that both subjects should be
considered together.
Mr. DISfl ARLI—Sir, I rise merely to touch on one of
the three subjects which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
has brought under our consideration, and when he rose I
did not contemplate that I should have to
trouble the house on either of those subjects. I shall con-
fine myself entirely to the question of procedure. I must
say I have listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer on that subject with feelings akin to asto-
nishment. (Hear, hear.) It is generally considered the
duty even of a private member of the house, when he
brings forward • bill or proposes a measure, that he should
at least indicate the mode in which be intends to ask the
opinion of the house, and the time he thinks it may be
convenient to ask for that opinion. But as I could collect
from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he has not at all
given any means to the house by which they can arrive at
a conclusion as to the course which the government
pose the house should adopt in this matter.
spective of the Chancellor of the Exchequer being • member
of this house the Chancellor of the Exchequer brings for-
ward this measure as leader of the House of Commons, and
it is his duty to regulate the general course of the business
of the house. But here is the mostimportantbuainess before
the house—buainess which has already engaged its attention
during a great portion of the session, and which
is contemplated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
as being likely to engage the best of our time.
So far as I can collect, the right hon gentleman has abdi-
cated his duty, for I am at a loss to know what is the day
and what is the hour when the opinion of the house will
be elicited upon the measure of the government. (Hear
hear.) I hope the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer will inform the house what course he pro-
Nies to follow, or that some other member upon the
government bench will state what day the opinion of the
house will be taken upon this very important measure.
(Opposition cheers.)
Mr. BOLTVERIE, after a pause and after some ironical
cheers and cries of "Gladstone," said he apprehended that
the proper time to name the day for the second reading of
the bill would be after the bill had been introduced and
read a first time—(hear, hear)—and he also apprehended
that though the question might seem to be one about pro-
cedure, it was one which lay much deeper, and really was
a question whether the house should go on
with reform or not. (Hear, hear.) There was
a . party in the house opposed to all procedure
in reference to the borough franchise, and that party was
headed by the right hon. gentleman who sat beside him
(Mr. Lowe) and the right hon. and gallant gentleman the
member for Huntingdon (General Peel). They were op-
posed to the Borough Franchise Bill, and though that party
was influential in point of numbers and weight--consider-
bag the individuals who belonged to it—yet they did not
represent the opinion of the house, nor represent the great
bulk of opinion in the country. (Hear.) He thought that
these bills should be placed together, and committed to
the same committee, with instructions to join them, when
the house would have the whole of this great question
before it, for let him say that it was a great measure.
(Hear, hear.) They should be able to discuss the question
as a whole, and to accept or reject, if they disapproved,
all together.
Sir H. CAIRNS urged that no information had been
given as to what the procedure on the bills was to be.
He taunted the government with leaving to the house
what they ought to settle themselves.
General PEEL said the right hon. member for Kilmar-
nock had alluded to him as one of those who wished to de-
feat the measure of the government by indirect means ;
but he could assure the right hon. gentleman that his
(General Peel's) opposition should be direct and straight-
forward. He wished to see the question settled, and not
to have reform bills buried and dug up as might suit the
purpose of a government. He should be glad to see the
right of voting given to many persons who were now with-
out it, but he should oppose the present bill at every pos.
aible opportunity. (Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I cannot
accept on the part of the government any portion of the
rebuke which the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire
has bestowed on me. Only a fortnight ago we were charged
with domineering over the house, with dictating to the
house and as we then believed ourselves to be innocent
of that charge, so now we are convinced that we do not
abdicate our functions or are chargeable with the conduct
which has been imputed to us. Our course has been this.
We have stated our ideas generally as to the best mode of
procedure for obtaining the object we had in view, that
object being the settlement of the entire question. But
I am not aware that by that declaration government was
or is vecluded from accepting any suggestions of amend-
ment even in the substance of the measure, without regard
to the quarter from which such suggestions might proceed.
Much less was it precluded from such arrangements as
courtesy and deference to the house should dictate as
to the order of proceeding. Not having kept
back my own notion as to the best mode of
procedure, I asked for the wishes of others on the ques-
tion, in order to ascertain whether any modification the?

Andover and Lymington
Ludlow and Leominster
Eye and Thetford
Horsham, Peters-field, Midhurst, and Arundel
Chippenham, Malmesbury, and Calne
Westbury and Wells
Devizes and Marlborough
Ripon, Knaresborough, and Think
Richmond and Northellerton
Besides these groups there are eight of the towns that I
have described, namely, those with a less population than
8,000, which we have not found it practicable to bring
within the reach of any geographical group. Those towns
are—
Bridgnorth. Lichfield.
Buckingham.
1 Marlow.
Stafford. Stamford.
Cockermouth. Newport.
That ends the question of disfranchisement. We now li
come, sir, to our proposals for enfranchisement ; and here
again, I must say, that the transactions of former periods
have laid down lines which are sufficiently clear and fixed
to leave very little doubt as to the general course which
should be pursued. A considerable proportion of the
seats liberated by disfranchisement have in all
cases been assigned to counties or divisions of coun-
ties; and there has been a tendency—a just ten-
dency perhaps--to increase the number of seats so
assigned in proportion as the number obtained by disfran-
chisement has been enlarged. But, besides counties, there
are the claims of the towns to be considered, ancl these
may be ranged under two bends-Ist, those large town
communities which have reached such a point as to make
it expedient to divide them, or which, at all events, have
claims to some addition to the actual number of their re-
presentatives : and 2ndl7, those new towns, those growing
populations, those rising communities, which in •
country like this, with its varied developments
of industry and commerce, are continually coming
into existence and assuming visible shape and mag-
nitude. proceeding with our operations we have
dealt with those seats as follows : —We propose
to give 26 seats to counties in England as follows. We
propose to divide the southern division of the county of
Lancaster, which has • population of 627,000, into two
districts, and to give to each three members. The whole
division has at present three members, and thus three
seats of the 26 will be disposed of. We then take every
county or division of a county not already possessed of
three members, and having a population of above 150,000.
Omitting one exception, which I will mention directly, we
find that there are of these 'Xi ; and we propose, therefore,
to give them 11 members. These calculations, I should
say, are made upon the census of 1861, which we have fol-
lowed as our test both in disfranchising and enfranchising.
It must also be understood that when I speak of
the population of counties I exclude the popula-
tion of the boroughs which are already, or
which we may expect are likely to be, enfran-
chised. The two divisions of South Lancashire
will be the Hundred of Wait Derby and the Hundred of
Salford. The 23 counties or divisions which will each have
a new member are :

might propose was compatible with our own views, or with
the end which we propose to reach. That was a course
which, it appears to me, is practised every day in this
house, and I hope the time will never come when G. will
not be practised. (Hear, hear.) What I gather from the
speech of my right hon. friend is this, that the real
question with regard to the order of proceeding will be
determined between the second reading and the com-
mittee, and that that will be the time best suited for
ascertaining the course proper for the final attainment
of our object. Bearing that in view, I think I
can hardly go wrong in saying that I will to-
night propose to read the Bill for the Redistribution
of Seats a second time on Monday next, postponing the
Franchise Bill until that day ; and I might say, not only
that I am justified in the course I take, but that I could
not, with propriety or decency, take any other course,
knowing, as I do, that gentlemen were waiting to learn
our proposal for the distribution of seats, and could not
possibly form their own judgment until they were ac-
quainted with our plain. But if any gentleman infers from
our anxiety to exhibit deference to the house that govern-
ment has altered its mind or abandoned its determination
as to the main issue, I hope that in a very short time suffi-
cient of our proceedings will have occurred to undeceive
him. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. ROBERTSON merely rose to repel, in the strongest
manner that parliamentary language would allow, the
accusation which the hon. and learned member for Belfast
had made againstthe Scotch members. (Cheers.) Until he
had heard the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he
hail not the remotest idea that Scotland was to be included
in the redistribution of seats. (Hear, hear.)
Sir K. KNIGHTLEY said the position taken up by the
government reminded him very much of what hon. mem-
; hers might have seen on returning home late at night
when they mule across a gentleman who had been dining,
" not wiaely, but too well "—daughter) mg
a lamp-post, utterly unable to advance, unwilling
to and resolved at all hazards not to fall.
(Renewed laughte-.) That appeared to be about the posi-
tion of the zovernment, and the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer now came to the House of Commons and asked for a
stretcher to take him home. (Cheers and laughter.)
The motion for leave to bring in the bill was then put
and carried.
THE SCOTCH AND IRISH REFORM
BILLS.

Chester, N. Lancaster, N.
Chester. S. Lincolnshire (part
Cornwall, W. of Lindsay).
Derby, N. Norfolk, W.
Devon, N. Somerset, E.
Devon, S. Somerset, W.
Durham, N. Stafford, N.
Durham, S. Stafford, S.
Essex, N. Surrey, E.
Essex, S. York, N.
Kent, W. West Riding, N.
Kent, E. West Riding, S.
We have not included in this list the county of Middle-
sex. We have forborne from doing so because upon the
whole the county of Middlesex for this purpose may be re-
garded as having an affinity with the metropolis rather
than with the rest of the country. In dealing with the me-
tropolis, though we shall propose some increase, we do not
propose to apply to it the same principles of representation
as we apply to more distant places, because it is quite
plain that the representation of the metropolis is owing to
its proximity, and to other circumstances, more efficient,
and gives greater weight with parliament than a similar
number of members would in any other portion of the country.
We, therefore, do not propose to give the metropolis the
very large—the extraordinarily large number of members
to which it would be entitled if its claims were regarded
with respect to population alone. Twenty-six seats have
already been disposed of. We propose to give a third
member to four boroughs which have a population exceed-
ing 200,000, namely,
Liverpool Manchester
Biriningham Leeds.
That raises the number disposed of to 26. We propose
next to give a second member to Salford, which has but
one, though it has at pretest a population exceeding
100,000. It is, in fact, the only borough in the whole
country which is in that predicament.
Mr. BRIGHT—The only one in England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—We have
now disposed of 31 seats. We propose to divide the Tower
Hamlets, which has the largest population of any repre-
sented district in the country, a population exceeding
South Lancashire by about 201,000 ; the population of the
Tower Hamlets in 1861 having been 1347,000. It is pro-
posed to divide the borough, therefore, into two divisions,
and to give each two members—thus, in fact, creating an
additional metropolitan borough, without altering the
general standard of representation for those boroughs.
We propose also to take Chelsea and Kensington (which
in 1861 hail a united population of 133,000) out of the
county of Middlesex, and to make them into a borough
returning two members. (Hear.) It will be borne in mind
that Chelsea and Kensington embrace a district of con-
siderable
extent, and that they have a very rapidly growing
population. We then propose to give one member to six
unrepresented boroughs, having a population exceed-
ing 18,000, namely :—Burnley, Staleyhridge, Gravesend,
Hartlepool, Middlesborough, and Dewsbury. In all of
these, except Hartlepool, we shall follow the existing
municipal boundaries. We have now disposed of 41 seats
out of the 49. The 42nd we propose to give to a consti-
tuency which is now numerous, and which is constantly
and rapidly increasing—the University of London. (Cheers.)
The claims of Scotland to increased representation, the
right hon. gentleman said, were next to be considered, and
it was proposed to give to that country such an increase.
It bad to be considered whether that should be met by •
transfer of seats from England or by an addition to the
number of members of the house ; and it bad been thought
most advisable that the remaining seven seats should be
given to Scotland. It was proposed, therefore, to give as
, additional member to the counties of Ayrshire, Lanark-
, shire, and Aberdeenshire ; • third member each to Glas-
gow and Edinburgh ; • second member to Dundee,
and one to the Scotch Universities. It was not intended
to make any addition of members in Ireland or Wales.

The LORD-ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in
the Reform Bill fur Scotland. In regard to the franchise,
it was proposed to reduce the franchise in boroughs to 71.,
which would bring about 26,000 of the working classes
within the electoral pale. AS regarded the counties, the
qualification would be reduced from 50/. to 141., which
would give about 20,000 additional voters in the occupa-
tion franchise. It was not considered desirable to intro-
duce the forty shilling freehold system into Scotland, but
it was proposed to reduce the property franchise qualifica-
tion from 10!. to 51. Having spoken of the seats proposed
to be added as stated by Mr. Gladstone, he said that the
Registration Acts for Scotland would be consolidated into
one act.
After some discussion, leave was given to bring in the
bill.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE moved for leave to bring in the
Irish Reform Bill, and said that the condition of the re-
presentation of the people of Ireland was not such as to
require any considerable alteration ; a great alteration of
the franchise having been made in 1850, waking the county
qualification a 121. rating, and the borough 81. He stated
that the number of county electors was now 142,000. It
was not proposed to make any change in the county
franchise. In regard to the borough franchise—the
number of electors being about 30,000—it was pro.
posed to reduce the 81. qualification to a 61. rating, which
would add about 5,500 electors to the registry. The lodger
franchise would be created for Ireland in the mane manner
as in England ; the rating clauses would be also repealed.
In reference to the 3111111 boroughs, none of the very smallest
returned more than one member ; but the popWahm, and
number of electors in moat of them was very small. It
had been determined that there were only three oases
in Ireland which required a transfer of Beata, vis.,
Dublin City, Cork City, and the Queen's IJni-
varsity The two former of these would have an
additional member, sod the latter would receive a repro-

- ,
EXPRESS
1 I ESDAY Evimasi.
G, MAC' 8
1866.

mutation also by one member. To obtain the necessary
members the following boroughswould be grouped to return
one member, via.—Bandon and Kinaale, Fortarlington and
Athlone, Dungannon and Enniskillen. There were seven
other boroughs with populations below 8,000, and it was
proposed to augaent thee, sad they mould be New
Ross and Ennisoorthy ; Ennis, Bflrueli, and Ennistimon ;
Tarand Queenstown ; Coleraine and Ballymena ;
and Fermoy • Cashel, Nenagh, and Tipperary ;
Downpatrick and Naiwtownards. Thom were the altera-
tions m regard to Ireland it was proposed to make.
Mr. WHITESIDE expressed himself eminently diesatis-
tied. It seemed to him that Ragland was to loss a great
deal, that Scotland was to pt everything, and Ireland
nothing.
Sir C. O'LOGHLEN, amidst some laughter from the
opposition, suggested that the University of Dublin should
be grouped with the Queen's University.
General DUNNE thought the bill ill-considered and ill-
devised, and intended merely to create political capital for
the government in Ireland.
Mr. Blum and Mr. KINNEDY dwelt on the necessity of
protecting the Irish tenant from landlord influence at
elections.
Major Kaox and Lord C. HAMILTON expressed their in-
tention to oppose the bill, and
Mr. EKARDENprotested against Athlone being wedded
to a town fifty miles distant.
After some further discussion leave was then given to
bring in the bill.

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