The Express.
London, England, 1860-04-24 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS. TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 24, 1860.

-slaked that if eaivenal suffrage were resorted to, the go-
veseamat would not be c
The Marquis of NORZiagY explained that what he
rid WY this, that if the Sardinian agents were withdrawn.
and the population of Tuscany was out of the power of
forts peewees, then they might deliver their opinions
freely, end that such would be the result.
Rad GRANVILLE said he could not accept the explana-
tions( the noble because a few Saribtuan agenta could
aotoverturn the established government of the country. What
the Debbi marquis distinctly stated was that her Majesty's
government had favoured the annexation of those provinces
to Piedmont, and that it was the direct cause of Savoy being
taken by trance. He denied that, for her Majesty's
goverment went no further than to say that the Italians
ought to be left to themselves to select that mode of distri-
bution of revitory which they should think mart agree.
able. (Hear, lwer.) _ _
The Earl of MAL. HESBCRY said he was anxious to an.
press the feekies es that (the opposition) side of the house
on this question, sad to say that there was no intention
whatever to cast say censure upon the noble earl who had
come over from Paris to be present this evening. For him-
self he might say that he was perfectly conscious
of the ability displayed by the noble earl in carrying
ea the i=it affairs of his mission, and no Malt bed a
tea If those Anion than hisnsall. Still,
Clint say that the speech of the noble earl did not re-
move the tairession that the noble marquis was justiffedin
this eddied before the house. The noble owl did
t aokilZ that he had had some conversations with Count
Wolewskiketl that be east them to this country, not in
se oilleil . but (a private letters ; and the 'wide earl
• ankle& Ise, that such a comae might be irregular. It
was elm the result of this irregularity had been to en-
able the gweenmet to 'tete by • sort of quibble that they
lad not resolved any official information. (Hear, hear.)
It was perhaps, tottate that they had not received
*Skiml hut it was a quibble, and they de-
ceived the hem they said they had received no in.
fortnatioe at aIL (S r.)
Fad ORAPtVULS was understood to say that he had
never doled the bet of there having been private letters.
The Hem* of NORMANBY made an observation
assess the tails wholly inaudible in the gallery.
The But of HAI.IOIIIII WRY said he understood that,
by the same ewers the_paversonent had pursued, they
had deastred the hewn. (Bear, n..,.) fiid not the govern-
ment melee intorsositioa such as to excite an aeoreheoeine,
la their Wade of the results which, in fact, bad bees
brought AM? (Sear, hear.) But, whatever result
there wili4ht have been, a peat injustice had been done to
Count Weleweki, became he always spoke and acted as
though he hed communicated to the noble earl the
intentioes of the government of France, and there-
fore he had not the least hesitation in saying
that his noble bird in Paris ought to have wade his toet-
sairestiens in the form of public despatches.
Lard WOW:HOT/SE denied that there bail been any at-
tempt on this part of the government to meshed the house.
The Marquis of NORM ANBY, in reply, said that it was clear
auffieseet grouse existed to justify him in bringing the matter
before the home ; end he was quite surprised to hear that
noble lards who differed so entirely with one of their col-
Inger sore pars ago on this veFlit:ftoof private corn.
spender:is should sow justify the • to which he had
allied their lordships' attention. Noble lords opposite might
And illesemisatteforget that circumstance, but he was quite
we that it was remembered by every foreign niiuister and
t abroad. He disclaimed all private motives in
forward the matter, stating that he had been ac-
tuated solely by public motives and a desire to see our
foreign correspondence conducted in a reguliir manner,
and through the medium of recognised public despatches.
The noble marquis concluded by saying he would not with•
draw his neolutiuns, but would accept the previous question.
He was only anxious to shoe to Europe that their lordships
did not approve of the proceedings to which those resolu-
tions referred.

The previous question was then put and screed to, and
their lordships adjourned at 25 minutes to d o dock.

HOUSE °POOH/JOWL—MONDAY, Ann. 23.
The house met at 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.

Mr. CAt.corr took the oaths and his meat on his election
for Clare county, in the room of Colonel White, unmated
on petition.

PRIVATE RUSIN &•48.

The Central Wales Railway, and the Great Southern
India Railway Company, Bills were read • third time and
passed.
The Dublin City Steam Packet Company, the Keith and
Dufftown Railway, and the Torquay Gas, Bills were read
• second time.

Those cheers came from the opposition side of
the home, who of comes would argue from the fact
he had stated that the measure weeds dangerous character.
He derived no such argument from it, because he had no
fear of the extension of the franchise. He thought, how-
ever, it was abeolutely essential in any measureof reform
which was to adjust this great question for a quarter of a
century—and be was not one of those who thought they
should be continually having amended suffrage s—that
they should know the numbers they were going to admit to
the franchise. The fallacy of these returns arose from the
fact that government took the numbers from a return of
all male persons assessed to the poor's rate in parliamen-
tary boroughs, but in consequence of the effects of the
compounding act, there were many thousands of per-
sons in boroughs occupying houses of 61. a year
and upwards who were not assessed to the poor rate, the
owner who paid the rate being the person who was assessed.
There was a return which would have given the noble lord
a nearer approximation of the effect of his bill. That return
was moved for by the hon. member for Lambeth in August,
1857, and it gave the number of houses rated in six metro-
politan boroughs. Those houses must, of course, be occu-
pied
order to their being rated, and making the necessary
deductions from them thee got at the number of occupiers
ekes would be enfranchised. Take St. Pancras, where the
noble lord said he would merely add 500 to the consti-
. In St. Pancras 3,766 6/. tenants would have the
franchise. He was delighted at it. The noble lord, he be-
lieved, would be startled at it, though he would profess to
be pleased with it. He would now take Finsbury. There
were 39,621 houses rated to the relief of the poor in Ifinsbury.
How many of those were under 61. houses? Not one. The
total number of electors at present was 20,951; and accord-
ing to the returns of the government the estimated increase
would be just 558. (Hear, hear.) Why the idea was ridi-
culous. (Cheers.) Take, again, the Tower Hamlets. The
number of voters now on the register was 28,843 ; sad the
increase was estimated at 5,488; but the number of 61.
houses rated to the poor was no lees than 88,327. (Hear,
hear.) The present number of voters in Marylebone was
21,001, and the number which it was stated would be added
to them by the bill was 406; but the number of rated
housee was 43,885. (Hear, hear.) The total esti-
mated addition of voters lathe metropolitan constituencies—
Finsbury, Marylebone, Westminster, Lambeth, Southwark,
and Greenwich, was 13,992 ; but the number of rated IN.
houses (deducting 27( per cent. the deduction made by the
government for insufficient 'residesece, female tenancy,
Ann tn. like) was no lees than iou,eoo. (Loud
abeam and counter cheers.) But he did not stop at
the metropolitan boroughs. He had caused inquiries
to be made in a great number of other towns
with similar results. For instance. the government calcu-
lated that the addition of voters at Blackburn would be
1,100, but the town clerk estimated it at 3,796. At Maccles-
field it was considered that there would be 2,760 more new
voters than was Mated by the government ; at Blackburn
2,074 more, and at Ashton nearly 2,000 more. His corns-
spmdent &tithe last town, who was a strong supporter of
the right bon. gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson), said that if the
government had asked for • proper return—viz., a return
of the number of 61 houses—the would have obtained in-
formation that might have beenderailed upon, bat, as it
was, their return was nothing but a series of the grossest
blunders." (Laughter and cheers.) Under the 30th sec-
tion of the Reform Act the occupier of a house, the rates
for which were paid by hie landlord, had nothing to do but
to tender his rates, and be could claim a right to vote, for
doing which considerable facilities were afforded by the act
of Sr W. Clay. It had, moreover, been legally decided
that if • Landlord charged ins hie rent anything for
rates, even if it were only • shilling, that payment would
inure to give the tenant a qualification ; for as the Reform
Act did not say anything about the rates being paid by the
hand of the tenant, the landlord was treated as his agent.
(Hear, hear.) He (the hon. and learned member) now
mine to the readjustment of the constituencies. The
government had not had courage to deal with this
question as • great question ought to be dealt with. In
his opinion, if public opinion did not back them enough,
the, had better wait till it did, rather than pas, a bill
which unsettled • great deal and settled nothing. The
public had certainly expected a more satisfactory measure
from the noble lord, who might be called the parent of
parliamentary reform, and who had taken so great a part in
defeating the bill of her Majesty's late government.
(Hear, hear.) The bill of 1854 was a much bolder and better
measure. In that bill the noble lord proposed to disfran-
chise 19 nomination boroughs; and, in all, he obtained
the disposal of 83 seats. Besides, in determining
which seats should be abolished he was guided
by • much better role than that he hail since adopted, for
he took into consideration not merely the number of the
inhabitants, but the number of the present constituency.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had defended nomination boroughs ; but their
speeches carried the house back to the times of Mr. Croker.
Mr. Croker, who was the creation of • rotten borough, and
who had never ventured to breathe the pure air of a liberal
constituency—(loud opposition laughter)—Mood up to de-
fend Alborough. Mr. Croker established • great reputa-
tion under the system of rotten boroughs ; but he expired
with his system, and he was embalmed in the undying
satire of the author of "Coningsby." (Laughter.) The
noble lord had revived the argument of Mr. Croker, and
had invoked the great names of Burke and Macau-
lay. Certainly the noble lord never made a greater
mistake than when he cited the example of Lord
Macaulay. Surely he must remember Lord MaCAU-
lay's own eloquent denunciation of the system of
rotten boroughs, which he said closed the door to men of ta-
lent, and openWtothemonlyabye.way, alwayslow and often
filthy, through which they had to creep on their hands and
knees. (Hear, hear.) As for the noble lord himself, did he
not quit Caine and obtain a seat at Leeds and Edinburgh?
The noble lord would certainly never have dreamed of being
quoted in support of rotten boroughs. (Hear, hear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded to the example of
Pitt, but what were Pitts own words? "1 avow myeelf the
enemy of close boroughs, for they are the stronghold of eor-
ruption, to which 1 attribute many of the calamities of the
country." (Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer
would nevertheless preserve them ise nurseriee for statesmen,
and as harbours of refuge for them when they were ostra-
cised by the caprice of larger oinetituencies. But what sort
of of refuge were Harwich, Ashburton, and Thet-
ford, or which of them since 1532 had introduced • great
statesman to the house?
An Hosr. Mares—Tiverton.
Mr. JAMES—Tiverton, a nursery! (laughter.) Surely
it was not an infant statesman who was nursed at Tiverton !
(Hear, hear.) The system of disfranchisement which the
noble lord had adopted was • very extraordinary one. For
instance, Tiverton was still to return two members, but it
had only 750 electors ; while Guildford was to lose a seat,
though it had 936. (Opposition cheers.) Again, there was
a borough in which the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) himself
was supposed to take an interest—Tavistock. It was to
keep its two members, though it had only 467 electors, but
Hertford was to low a representative, notwithstanding
that it had 803. (Loud cheers.) Once more, Malta',
in which the whig interest predominated, and which was to
keep both its members, had only 789 voters ; but Maldoa,
which was to lose one of its sesta, had 1,213. (Renewed
.) Lastly, Wycombe was to keep two members
titriZi voters, and Dorchester was to loos one with 551.
(Cheers.) The proper mode was not to regard population
alone. but to see which town bad in it the largest number of
inhabitants likely to grow into voters. However, this at least
might be said for the noble lord's plan, it was a most fortu-
nate one for the whig boroughs. (Great opposition cheering.)
Further, let the house observe the absence in this bill of
any lodging franchise ; there was nothing but a 61. rental.
But there was a very large body of intelligent persons who '
lived in apartments, some of them for seven, eight, and ten
years, and earning from 501. to 100!. • year and more ; and
they had no vote. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord would
not, it seemed, condescend to the adoption of what he (Mr.
James) might, without adulation, say he thought a most
valuable part of the bill of the late government—namely,
the lodger franchise. They might stigmatise it a fancy
franchise, but it embraced a largo and intellectual portion
of the community, which would form an excellent counter-
poise to the large popular element which was
about to be introduced. In the bill of 1864
the noble lord had declared that the payment of rent
was a sufficient test of solvency, and that lie would not
demand the payment of rates. But now Ow noble lord had
changed his principle entirely? and if • 8/. rating franchise
be established with a KC in counties, let the house only
consider how many of the constituencies would be dis-
franchised in consequence of the non-payment of their rates.
A bill with such ditbculties as these in its way surely
could hardly be called • settlement of the question. But
the bill, they were told, was to go into committee ; and
what fate was reserved for it in another place it was im-
possible to say. He thought, however, that parliament
would pause before it incurred the deep responsibility of re.
jetting the bill. There were • number of persons who were
dimatudied with it, but who were offering to it no turbulent
or factious opposition ; and both parties in the house, he
thought, were deeply interested in peeing some bill to amend
the representation of the people. Twice bad the house been
warned already by the fate of • minister • let them be
careful how they interfered between the people and the ob-
taining of their jun political rights. With regard to her
Majesty'e government, he thought their treatment of this
question had not been satisfactory. They were bold in their
commercial pulley, whilst in questions of the highest do-
mestic importance they were feeble. (Cheers from the op-
position.) This session was likely, In thank, to become
memorable 111 'natters of social and leternatencil progress,
but it seemed to him that her Majesty's government had blot
a great "pportunity ; and he regretted that they had so far
disappointed the expectations of a forbearing and confiding
peewit,. (Cheers.)

Mr. HARDY *barred that nobody had spoken in favour
of this bill. Kr. James bad shown that it would not be a
settlement of the question satisfactory to the party he re-
presented, while on the conservative *de it was believed that
it would not be a safe measure. Its object was avowedly
not to improve the constituency, but to increase the num.
ber ; it was quantity, not quality. Mr. Bright and his party
supported the bill, not bemuse it would he a satisfactory
settlement of the franchise, but because they hoped it
would afford standing ground for an increase of the consti-
tuency that would overbear property and intelligence; it was
supported as a depping.stoue to a further extension of the
franchise. By its extension in the direction proposed by
this bill, those wbo did not pay taxes would be suable' to
control those who did pay, w►ile it would open wider the
door of corruption. He conineed the representation of
Mr. James of the fallacy of the returns adopted by the
government, Melding that, in a majority of indent's, the
gross estimated rental did not show the actual rent ; so that
' he bill would not merely add to an existing constituency,

but would create a constituency of which nothing was
known. In reviewing the details of the bill, he condemned
the giving a third member to large towns as a step in the
wrong direction, and regarded the omission of any scheme
of revised registration ea an important defect ; since, if
there were to be large constituencies, there should be a
cheap and may system of registration. In the conclusion
of his speech, If.r. Hardy made an animated defence of the
aristocracy against the strictures of Mr. Bright, who, he
observed, was dragging after him a government that could
have no sympathy with his views.

Sir G. LEWIS observed that when the government un•
dertook to frame a reform bill they employed the interven-
tion of the Poor-Law Board to obtain correct data ; and the
returns laid upon the table contained correct and complete
information so fat 11111 the rate-books, the only basis up=
which the returns could be founded, furnished such infor-
mation. Mr. James had stated that the government had
made important errors ; but he (Sir (eorge) maintained
confidently that the returns were substantially correct, and
that the government bad not made any scrious error in the
inferences they had drawn from them. He pointed
out sources of error in Mr. James's argument on
this point, which he in turn accused of fallacy ;
and he then proceeded to state the grounds upon
which he supported the bill. The object of the Reform
Act of 1832, he remarked, was to remedy evils resulting
from the representation of decayed and almost uninhabited
towns, and the non-representation of populous counties and
large manufacturing towns ; and the effect of the measure
and subsequent experience had made him think that the
time had come when it was desirable that some further pro-
gress should be made in the same direction. The defects
of that act were admitted, and the present moment was
favourable for the introduction of • measure, framed in the
same spirit, which was • precautionary one, to guard
against evils, slight at present, but which were increasing ;
and the government were satisfied that it was • safe
and moderate measure. It was objected that the bill con-
tained no revised system of registration; but the govern-
ment bad studiously avoided the introduction of subordinate
matters into the bill, and this subject might be more con-
veniently dealt with in • separate measure. The objection
that it omitted the lodger franchise could be discussed in
the committee ; and with regard to the complaint that the
bill was deficient in disfranchisement, he argued that

cumstaines bad altered since the year 1831, th-at the nomin-
Atka borcepas IMICON the Reform set stood upon •
different footing from that on which the borough.
with =all constituencies now stand ' • and the go-
' tent had determined not to propose disfranchisement
epos a large scale, but to follow the principle adopted in
W till of the late government—that of population, which
they thought was, upon the whole, a fair one, and prefer-
able to that of the number of electors. He explained the
reasons which bad influenced the government in proposing
the transfer of seats, observing that it was a fair subject
for consideration, and if the house deemed the reasons in-
eisScient, their decision could be altered in the committee.
H. impressed upon the house, in conclusion, that there
could be no sound system which did not to •
peat extent recognise the principle of local repre-
sentation. It seemed to him that the present moment
being one of unexcited public opinion, and being fitted for
cairn deliberation within those walls, and for • reasonable
estimate of the measure throughout the country—
was peculiarly suited for the consideration of a
wholesome measure of parliamentary reform. He
trusted that, whatever might be the fate of the bill, it
would at any rate be fairly met in front, and that the have
would have • fair stand-up fight upon it. (Cheers.) He
hoped that no attempts would be made to defeat it by in-
imposing delays, by seeking to obstruct it by dilatory mo-
tions, or by attempting to debate other measures at unne-
cessary length. Although rumours of an intention to adopt
that kind of tactic, which he would not dignify by calling
it a "Fabian policy," had reached him, he could not believe
that any large number of members would combine for the
purpose of carrying out a policy so ignoble, so little suited to
the dignity or the character of the house, and so little fitted
for the consideration of • measure of such first-rate import-
, saes. Although the session had now made some proper, let
fibs observed that even if the bill should not go into commit-
tee before Whitsuntide, the whole month of June would be
Wt for its consideration, and if the devotion of almost every
I government night would not be enough for its subsequent
it would be scarcely possible to conceive any time
sedacient to enable a manure even of its simplicity to
receive the assent of that house. If their discussions were
gabbed by July there would be sufficient time for its consi-
deration by the House of Lords ; and it was therefore im-
possible hir any gentleman who looked at the state of the
session to say that there was not ample time for the due
consideration of the measure. He trusted, therefore, that
all dilatory motions would be avoided, and that the house
would give to the merits of the bill its most careful and
deliberate attention. (Hear, hear.)
Lord R. MONTAGU said, though not opposed to reform,
be was averse to revolutionaryjchanges that tended to subvert
the balance of the constitution. He complained that the
deference which powerful constituencies exacted from their
representatives interfered with the action of principle,
hampering and tyrannising over them, leading to shifts and
compromises, and this he ascribed to the Reform Act,
which, he contended, had not fulfilled the lavish promises
of its framers. There was no need of this bill, since there
were no particular evils to be remedied, or anomalies to be
rectified ; and the bill would confer the franchise upon an
entirely new class—a class exempt from income tax. Be
dwelt upon the preponderance of the towns in the repre-
sentation with reference to property and numbers ; and
argued against the numerical theory, irrespective of
intelligence, upon which the bill was constructed.
By the present mode they were saying that members of
parliament were worth • certain number of votes ; then
why not have equal electoral districts at once? He further
contended that the small boroughs always selected the best
members. (Much laughter.) There might be • few excep-
tions ; but those proved the rule. The large boroughs
generally elected declaixoere—men conspicuous for their
long speeches. (Hear, hear.) For this purpose Ledru
Rollin in the year 1848, at Paris, said, "By all meansavoid
returning men of ability and education." That was the case
with the large constituencies ; they liked men of medio-
crity, without originality or intellect. (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord (Lord J. Russell) was quite right in his remarks
on this subject. He showed that large constituencies had
rejected Burke, Macaulay, and Sir J. C. Hobhouse. The
latter was made War Minister, and immediately the consti-
tuency would have nothing more to do with him. It was
true, at any rate, that the constituencies of Birmingham,
Ashton, and Rochdale did not at the present day return
War Ministers. (Laughter.) But every man who had
brought himself into notice was liable to lose his seat for •
largeoondituency. The hon. member for Ashton lost hisseat for
Mancheater in 1857 ; the bon member for Birmingham in 1857;
and the hon. inember for Rochdale, our great ambassador,
lost his in the amine year. Lord Morpeth lost his election
for North Northumberland in 1852 ; the right hon. baronet
the member for Radnor had lost Lis ; and the noble viscount
himself had, he believed, once sat for Routh Hampshire.
He (Lord R. Montagu) had made a list of thew numbers
whom he thought the most distinguished in the house—
llaughterl—and he found they almost invariably sat for
amen boroughs. There were Droitwich, Durham, Halifax,
Horsham, Huntingdon, Leominster, Lyme Regis, Stamford,
and others. He excepted, of course, the =Avenges, be.
cause they consisted of educated men.

Mr. H. BERKELEY said the noble lord who bad just sat
down had made • speech with his usual ability, declaiming
very much against the bill they were now discussing, and
the opinion of the noble lord was confirmed by almost every
other hon. gentleman who had spoken on the subject in his
(Mr. Berkeley's) hearing. It seemed very extraordinary
to him that so many able speeches should have been made
without any result whatever—(hear, hear)—without any
hon. member putting on the records of the house • denial
of the bill altogether. It seemed that after all the speeches
against the measure, the house was going to agree quietly
to the second reading. (" Hear, hear," and • laugh.) He
thatfound himself in this position,i he could not look upon
the measure as • reform bill. (Laughter.) It had no pre-
tence to be called one &wordily to the common acceptation
of the word. It was a forward measure, and as such he
was compelled in consistency to give it his support.
(Hear' hear.) But while he did so, he entered his protest
against its being considered a measure of finality—
against its putting • stop to all questions of
reform for the next five-and-twenty years, as had
been rid of it. Again, he objected to this bill
simply from its deficiencies. It might be called a measure
of progress, but as to reform it was the most infinitesimal
does of reform ever offered to the House of Commons.
(Hear, hear.) He took it as such, and swallowed it, like
the globule of the hoinceopathic practitioner, in the belief
that it was calculated neither to do him good nor harm.
(Laughter.) But he thought it right to state there were
three strong objections which he took against the measure.
There were three questions of reform it ought to have dealt
with. The first was, that there was an extension of the
franchise made to a class of men lees calculated, if possible,
to bear the effects of intimidation and corruption than the
present class of voters--(oppoeition cheers)--and that, while
they offered those men the franchise, they denied to them
the obvious remedy against intimidation and corruption,
namely, the Lallot. ("Hear " and a laugh.) The objection
he took to the bill was exact objection taken by Lord
Macau/ay and Mr. Grote to Reform Bill of 1832. They
considered that bill a failure because protection was denied
to the elector. The house had just heard the noble lord
opposite (Lord It. Montagu) descant upon the absence of
electors from the poll. How often had he (Mr. H. Berke-
le)) complained of that to the house? In short, anything
which would give them • real remedy for intimidation was
denied in the bill (Hear, bear.) The next point to which
he now turned was the absence of any dealing with the no-
mination boroughs. The third defect in the measure as a re-
form bill was its failure to deal with the tribunals of the
house as regarded election petitions. (Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved there was no greater abuse existing than that system.
Nu system required more alteration and hail less the confi-
dence of the country. (Heer, hear.) The noble
lord who had commenced his reform career by bringing in
the first Reform Bill had ended it at (Milani. (Great
laughter.) The noble lord's sun rose with much promise ;
his noonday sun was brilliant; but his evening sun was
now setting watery and dull, and in the most disastrous
manner for himself. (laughter.) titill it WM Impossible
to forget the claims which the noble lord hail on the coun-
t • and he only regretted that the noble lord at the end
of his career did not retain the position with which he had
commenced it.

Lord R. CECIL said that allusion had been made to voters
staying away from the poll in small boroughs ; but the
aast sinner in this respect was the borough of Maryle-
et7(Hear, hear.) He admitted he was an elector of that
borough ; and he believed that no intimidation or influence

was exercised except by the public-houses. (Laughter.) The
Home Secretary had referred to the representation of
,localities • and the whole question was involved in that in
the boundaries c boroughs. At present county voters in
Middlesex, Yorkshire, and Lancashire, were swamped by
the inhabitants of boroughs. He hoped that this point
would be considered in the committee on the bill. The
first Reform Billjoaly enfranchised 88,000 persons ;,the pre-
sent bill, on the lowest calculation, would sive the franchise
to 200,000 so that it went twice as far in • radical direc-
tion as the former Reform Aet. That act contained
checks and compensations—he might instance the Chandos
clause ; but there was nothing of the kind in this bilL It
upset the balance established by the former act ; and it
would give such a predominance to the poor that it would
be impossible for the rich and the intelligent to struggle
against them. He had no doubt that the present members
for Marylebone represented that borough accurately. But
would anyone say, after walking through the borough and
noticing its splendid squares and the great wealth of the
inhabitants, that that dam of the voters were represented?
(" Hear, hear," from the opposition.) This bill altered the
legislating body itself. How, then, could they say that they
would make a stand' and would not go further? Next
year they would not be there to make • stand.
It would be a different House of Commons ; and they might
keep moving the stone the present house set rolling.
He did not believe that the democracy Would seek to take
the crown off the Queen's head, they would pursue some-
thing more substantial ; never had he any apprehension
that they would seek to abolish the House of Lords. So
long as the upper house persevered in the innocuous course
they bad followed for the last few years, contenting them-
selves with minor legislation, and in major quietly register-
ing the behests of the Commons, he did not believe that the
hon. member for Birnunghern would seek to disturb them.
But there was one question upon which the democracy
would unite for purposes of aggression, and that was
taxation. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Birmingham
was going to throw the responsibility of taxation on the
lowest and rudest of the community, and they had
already had a specimen of how indirect could be
changed into direct taxation.
Mr. M. MLLNES said he should vote for this bill, with
the feeling that, so far from having the revolutionising ten-
dencies which had been attributed to it that evening, it
walked in the ancient paths of the constitution, and was in
fact nothing more than • development of those constitu-
tional principles of ahoy hail seen, under Providence,
the marvellous effects in a combination of liberty and
order in this country which the world had never witnessed
before. The noble lord who had just spoken said this was
a scheme for transferring the government to another
stratum in society. He (Mr. Manes) did not believe
in the social geology of the noble lord. (Cheers,) He
thought both the noble locals who bad addressed
the house against the bill would have done so with much
greater effect if they had not talked so much about the
upper classes to which they belonged, and the lower classes,
which they treated, be would not say with contempt, but
certainly with a considerable amount of disrespect. (" No,
no," from the opposition.) It was treating Englishmen with
disrespect to assume that if political power were placed in
their hands they would wield it for political purposes, with-
out regarding the interest of those around them, or of the
community to which they belonged. (Hear, hear.) If any
proof were needed that the evils of revolution were not so
impending as some supposed, it might be found in the fact
that this question of reform excited so little interest in the
country. He believed that was agood sign, showing as itdid the
' general contentment of the people with the government
under which they lived. It was, he believed, the feeling of
the mass that they were living under • good Sovereign and
tolerant religions institutions, and that parliament was in
the main obedient to the will of the entire people. In the
year 1880 the house ought not, in his opinion, to attach
much importance to political prophecies. (Hear, hear.)ll
Mr. PEACOCKE cited some of the many instances of
eminent men returned for small constituencies, asserting
that these same men, when they became members for large
boroughs, became rather delegates than representatives, and
were unable to act in accordance with their own con-
victions. Would the tone of the debate—would the
capacity for business—would the character of the
house be improved by the abolition of small con-
stituencies? These constituencies were the representa-
tives of a most numerous class, and their abolition would
throw the house into two great divisions, without any in-
termediate body to soften and reconcile them. He would
prefer electoral districts to the unequal proposals of the
bill ; they would, at least, be fair, logical, and final.
Mr. THOMSON argued in favour of the rental franchise
as the only real test of the class fitted to exercise political
power.
Mr. NEWDEOATE said that the reform question had
been for years the football of faction—the topic
of an out-door parliament—which had decided the
proceedings of that house. He entered at length
on the effects of the bill on the county con-
stituencies, respecting which the delusion was as
great as that which prevailed on the subject of borough
constituencies. He showed, from returns already presented
to the house, that the addition to the county constituencies
made by the bill would be from 210,000 to 300,000, and
demanded that a fuller representation should be given to
the counties, so as to balance the power of the boroughs.
Unless this was done, the House of Lords would incur a
grave responsibility if it consented to pass the bill.
On the motion of Mr. BLACK, the debate was adjourned
till Thursday.

'PAPER DUTY REPEAL BILL.
• The report upon this bill, as amended, was considered,
and agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be read • third
time.