The Express.
London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

Bl LL.

Lord RIDEBDALE mondaat the standing order, No.
179. sae. 1. should bii sospsodrd in rsfsracce to this bill.

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY oontended that no
moon had been shown why their lordships should depart
from their standing orders.
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE supported the motion,
the object of which was to allow the First Commissioner of
Works to be heard by counsel before the committee on the

Earl OREY was opposed to any departure from the usual
course. The First Commissioner on this occasion did not re.
present the crown, but a corporation having the manage.
meet of Batteries-park and Cbelrea•bridge. Sir B. Hall,
the late head of that oorwiration, had approved of the plans
for the railway 11111111140111, and the corporation was Is stud by
what he had done. It ought not to be allowed to take a
dilemma coarse bowsaw the corporation was now under an•
sear brad. _

WILD CHANCELLOR agreed that it was important
that the seanding orders should be adhered to; but the gum-
din wen whether this wee not • case in which they might
suspended. Having had the facts rubroitted to him,
properlye be
of opinion that it wait not a case in which the crown
was interested ; end therefore there was oo neceseity for
obtaining the royal assent to the preamble of the bill. He,
however, thought it essential that the Chief Cominimicuer
should petition against the bill, and as the time for present-
ing each petition bad pasted, the motion was now made for
suspending the standing order. so that the petition might be
presented. It was said that the corporation was bound by
what bad been dace by its late heed. But this was not •
corporation for mire. purposes, but one for the protection
I of public interests; and bad the late Chief Commissioner sees
it to change his mind in reward to times plane, it would
have been open to him to do so, and to oppose the bill. In
libe saner, the sew Chief Cceninineleeer, taking • Merest
view has his psellesener. had a periect right to tabs such
step as he mereighe seas try for protecting the public
tniesesta. The ems was one in which the opportunity
ghoul! be given him to do so by the suspension of the Mend-
latirl GRANVILLE opposed the motion. No ew what-
ever bed been made out for sueproding the order. If amend-
masts in the kill were 'mortuary they might be moved in
the whsle hones on the third reading.
Lad REDESDALE mid that it was not at all tuturual
/or the ateredlosi enter le be suspended in favour of petitions
wide! bid hens essilintelly delayed beyond the time. The
i which the park and bridge were
I preereldgurZrajmellirsi •Is
seepeerdon of the standing order.
Lard STANLEY of ALDIRLBY again adverted to Sir
B. Hare approval at the plow
The Bari of DONOUGRUORE repeated his impremion
of Ishii Ind peseed.
The led el WICKLOW NO the reasons which had been
dfrtpa•tfag the prayer of the mettle,' were in his
inselMeinet, and he trusted their lordsips
ham • regard toe the interests of the public, and front • con-
sideration et the position of the companies who had been
sailed by the Bawd of Work., reject the motion.
Their le Ipa flea divided on the gardens that the stand-
fug be seepended.
Then mbers wen : _ _

cue
Nos-coelle4 4B-15
CHURCH RATH ABOLITION BILL.

The Dasaikiiiiiisiire7:4l;!;;.;;l;;w7
11111101.11 of paddons 'Naylor for the abrattrios of church rates,
said Hs In to which he woe about to ask their lordships to
rim a mereed reading. provided for the satire abolitioa of
ohm* rates M England and Wales and •tontaieed so pro-
vide* by way of imbetitutioci. The church rate
wen totally leadequat• for the purpose. There
wens dessends sad thousands of people who could
W as pleas within the church, and therefore contended that
they wee me heard to support the church. (Hear, bear.)
lievoiner the Aesop tate might have been suited to former
Hem, k was met applicable to the present ocnalt,lon of m-
oiety. end nes hear producing incremier disoontent.
The dismal= bad pas on rapidly increasing during the
lest 160 mos sad the church rats had educated them in
haglike, ta tboobwroik. It was said that la the great majority
at parishes dm& rates were still levied, but this question
mast he abuse oke barks upon the whole population. It
Ina Mb to Ms powlis with a limited population, mad
mama Om wall peel Mos ramming an enormous 11001211 i
PlidiallisTb Iced ems as [milk the Markel cos-
dlJ progio oft* sestry, showing a sat park-
tks swessossil with the church, sad • resat mese
kre tsarha Awe Nob sr provision whatever. Now
- IMPS ellidallV*lolll ought to be
wit whirl to dealing with this subject. (Hoar.)
TM wake of churches was 14,000, white the number of
dimentlerg dry& was 30,000. These lamenting elm*s
bad bos bat without any a 4 from the Sato, sad thq

need remember that the diameters were the poured elm of
Ile imeammity. He did sot believe that time would be
my great difficulty in the mei perishes in Whims a provi-
sion for the mainlines°, of the &brio by a ohsrP aim the
bad. The wily dlilkuliy that he felt wee that they bad
gem too far to make It comprideory. As • voluntary
he alined It might be raised. He conceived that in
where church rates had not bees WM err years,
the y thing was to treat it as a bed debt. ad Mike it eat
ciSSI. He Anew objection would be madetheet theme
=kw.
some parishes where no funds would be rased.
These would lys cases of the kind, no desk, at first,
NM thel might be • reason for saying that the
bill not come into operation for ems thee,
bet did not seem to him to be any
the pie of the bill. Bat it might be Z=lllet
gi
ally dret of a series of attests that meld be nisi, spa
the *arch, but he wee not M that opiates. Tv, may
my• now sought the repeal the dwelt sago=
limir feelings having been yam* be hada le
sow ; he believed that was *a eines el agitation we re-
newed they would Mara le their good Myer eel pod
sear. In NU there were • number of damages or esteems
Is the House of Commons, and they came *am* end
sesta the grievances to which they Meted
sat to to apply a remedy. They remised the the-
ft= a alter& ram • resiaratios M births, that
aissibps by dal °attract should be imilised without the
washerthilm el*, °larch, admission to the snivereffies, and
a fir, ref sallenel education. They had mentelle these
stylise lisid sot bem elmellies
ti7es.l6lll=reitiese the remit? That the people fait
lay hid sot bees treated In • bathe spirit, bet ISM imp
bed be desk with with cooildesa_. ad they bra lb,
atteshmemt of theleopie In return. There wee se eemelen
now for keeps le *OM the monarch whin be west kith Me
oltY. led Mies ail Queen was at Birmingham the ellest lay
moth* esnliemesed lbe loyalty of the people. (Rear,
hear.) He miell them le deal with this weaken is the
spirit be Ma* they had 511•13 with the Ohm he
had amel. Om were other MINIM why be
It Mid& at thecct room* that lbw shooldtatit
Me imilles. were told on lea dies of the hem
OM seeder relies wee inallable. Hew, the lea a-
im bill gave VMS power to the dimetters of this sits.
=armades.ems so sleeve people ; they had spiel* lima is the
end they lad great power Is emmeareid, ma-
end shad districts. No reline bill could to
wait ea glop gnat addithmel to this,
popiellest. Was it wise, thee, to leave thisgmelles fla
=L? Wel it VI" Vilf■ they had on Or annellea
I Me* a Islam bill, to have the ealoseity of a
&ens diemelon mixed up with it? He trusted
who opposed this bill would not do set without
ISM definite plan by which they might stle this
He did not know whether the prams would like
memo. After what took place last night he felt 631.
pr.
*ea laughar.) He looked tiara this se a party qua-
don, he trusted that their lordships would epos to the
ing.
LEONARDS was willing to allow that the diem-
tire a . Dieser* was allowed by law; mid It al
*ma Ted the lading of places of worship ether thee
Nc4d
the podia char* Dissent had thus a le mow
rate then hoes a poetics of the es of ap the
chum* ; and he thought, ors that the
ought to be released from the liability *hales a pay
church Mee. Whet, however, the noble dabs selmd them to
do was to abolish the rata altogether. Bat what right had
the dissenters to expect that? (Hear, hear.) The truth was
it was sot a mere remedy of • grievance that we sought,
but the damage of the establishment. (Cheers.) He (the noble
lord) wee wilting to relieve the dimainters, and he had no wish
wlisitear to degrade or offend him. He wished to sot fairly ;
bat se wee who was encased from the obligation to pay
ehmaltheess bed say right either to be a churchwarden or to
vote he the Melton of a churchwarden. (Hear=
That *mad le him to be no more than just. He
that liet bad esil Mesa of the disasters ed sot wish to see
abellee be they were Is Saar of as Mr
elmeelt. Is bet, it wee the estarlishreent TM&
Ws
amierd el &mat ; for if there was no naked
Miss weld dissent be? (Rear, bear.) They were
till dot they saw sot mark the dissenters ; but he had
now known a diameter yet who wished to hide his bellet,
ass whe did not rather glory in being a dissenter. (Hear,
lam) He (the soli, lard) should certainly vote against the
sees*.sediemg at the bill ; but he should be perfectly toady
to imit agree to any fair end namable proposal for
the fifths mestion. (Hear, hear.)

t.. WOD3HOI7-1111 lid not think the noble lord had
sivea wirows mem, to the speech of the noble duke. He
bud idiot' lieelehell to bow dm noble lord speak of
chunk rates as a legal ehwrge %pea laud, the feet being
that there were 500 perishes Is which church rates were given
up. Church rates were only a charge that might be put upon
land by • mejority of the rat•pwen, and not a legal charge
upon It. He should support Use bill because he considered
that the Intends of the church hermit demanded that this
dispute should be no looser protracted. He considered that
the proposal to exempt diameters as dissenters world be as
exceedingly unfortunate arrangement, because It would have
the effect of converting occasional nonconformity into con-
firmed dissent. (Hear.) Heind not think that there was much
danger of churches being neglected if rates ware abolished.

The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said he would ex-
empt known dissenters from the contribution of church
rates, and the only disability he would impose on them was
that they should not rote for the levying of the rat., or for
the election of churchwardens. lie would hare the dissenters
feel that the chunk did not all on them for contributions

for our supvwt They araiinidhe teen to— u'tlta hseaae,
but when they came they abseil le esMarlldrpaprett
of the burden that fell ea th• are of the
churob. He hoped they lunar far from • reammable sad
conciliatory solution of this quake, one which would be am
tiefectory to the dissenters, and the same time leave intact
end inviolate the rights of the established church.
The MAO of NEWCASTLE regretted the bill
did not oome before the bore at a earner period of the
aesaion, eo es to enable them to said it to a select committee
of their lordships. If the bill had been sent up at an earlier
period, he should not consent to vete against the moor
reading, and if he did so now, it woe because he believed it
would be a heir im to pow the saxed reading in the hope
of being able to pre it into • law is the present session
of parliament. Any attempt to pus this measure now would
only complicate the reation, Ind to increased irritatioa, sad
render it more difficult to deal with it at a future time.
lie hoped the government would take the earliest opportu-
nity of introducing in their lordships' hoer • bill on this
sabject in the next rice of parliament. (Hear.) It had
been discus/led over and over again in the other house par-
liament, and he most say that many of the speeches at the
friend, of the dissenters exhibited such • spirit of coacilirket
and so much readiness to agree to some fair
that be was more hopeful that any measure introlZWlrbt
government on this aultieot would meet with • favourable
reception from the other house.
Lord WENSLEYDALE said that if the bill passed with
• clause defaming its operation, he did not believe that the
House of Commons would accept it In that form. He dis-
sented from the legal view of the question taken by Lord St.
Leonards. After referring to the various cane which had
come before the arta and their lordsobAt boyar:, be acid it
had been decided that the common law en • perish
to repair its chuyeb could not be oaf hillemeet or
interdict, but only le the erselastioal marts. The leery
thus given was extremely difficult of applieselea. We had
frequently, in conversation with direnew, inbred Whim
that the support of the church was obelipeory_npra them by
law, though the means of enforcing It were diftult, and that
they might en well my they would steel, if the law against
theft could not be enforced. <Hear, bear.) If • remedy
were given in the common law courts by mandamus, than
would he no difficulty in enforcing the obligation.
The Earl of DERBY thought the Duke of Somerset
bad displayed much coinage in undertaking whet he trusted
would be the hopeless teak of seeking to induce the house to
deprive the church of England, without equivalent or oom•
rogation, of what was esautial to her maintenance and one
of her meet indisputable rights. In point of principle he
could me no distinction between the charges of tithe and
church-rate, except, perhaps, that the amount of the tithe
was flthd, while that of the rate was variable, sad that
tithes could be recovered by legal proper while In 'erring
the payment drunk-rates there was considerable Ifficulty.
He contended that the rate was • charge upon property
itself, the payment of which could not be evaded on the plus
of coarser He regarded with greet envision all am-
retentions scruple*, the result of yielding to which was a
saving of mossy. He admitted the question was not in a
' satisfactory position, and that many dissenters who opposed
the rate were sot aslosated by hostility to the Church; but
• large proportkm of those who were carrying on the present
agitation did It from • politicel-religious spirit, and were
actuated by the mat deadly hostility to the church, en-
deavour* to lower and drepoil her, and nom* her to rely
en the ruatary principle only. lie denied the Adultery
of that prima* as a substitute for the tute; it might
be Invoked etressfally for • temporary purpose, but
not for permanent and sustained exertion. Ee noticed
rarel objection, to the bill, contending that the plea pro-
posed by the Doke of Somerset, of sushi* Imilestmem to
charge their estates with • rate, would Imes oho names as-
ratty to recur again if the properties We seld. saly
reel reseed appeared to him le be lig Ilse easel' be •
fund rain the first tasteace, bey mattiquirm-
lent to the average mooing of ehmebeales ; h a plan
would demand their most mrkma esaideeellea ; bat it was
wholly at variance 'with the object el the poem& 1101. He
thought the prim:Woof voluntary cammeleiles wen the enly
pomible solution of the difficulty. Ho maid net the
govt to fat:wham say messerealle ellitleek beg he
should be glad to paresir the ellsheme WWI= en the
port of the Craters to meet the ear aril mew. (Hess.
Bo long as the dlresalin were aseinelael h be maim' With
maim bat absolute feral they Gill 11100 Ihelmele Ihe
members of the church, and compilled Sam h NlNelhate
to fall back upon that which, harm brerihr Jot le •
meat extent did maintain that white It was- of the Wart
importance to maintain, the brio of the established church,
and to rusks a due provision for the religious INTIM et the
church. (Hear.) For the Interest at the disasters them-
selves and of all them who wished be me the matter Wad