The Express.
London, England, 1866-07-21 00:00:00

EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 21, 1866.

rqpt .Ir.

THE

tint of 26 ships of this class, and the French only 17. P trian statesmen for the spirit which they indicated
With regard to guns, .the 12-ton cannon and the other at the time when they effected the treaty of commerce
ordnance adopted in the naval service web of the best de- with this country. (Hear, War.) Well, has she not
scription. He aimed that in the traasitiee ateie cl ord- before her a hopeful and noble work? Is there anything
nanoe of late years it would have been unwise to have to prevent her continuing to be what she has so long been,
built a large number of ships, sad showed that the Lite and I hope always will remain, one of the great powers of
Admiralty had not in fast been opposed to turret shine. Europe ?Is it not even pueblo that she may find that
The discussion was continued by Sir J. Hay, Mr. Laird, this curtailment of territory, this loss, this cession of Cer.
Sir M. Peto (who censured the late Admiral , and ex- taro parts sad characters which she was unable adequately
premed his gratification at seeing Sir J. n in to fulfil, though appsrentl loss will prove to be • real gain?
office), by Lord J. Hay, Mr. Greve', and Mr. (Hear, hear. y ) r know not whether tMs is too banful
Lusk, when the subject dropped. a picture. In times of wholesale bloodshed per pe
lit may be an unnatural deduction to anticipate
THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT. I f results to be wrought out through
Mr. LAING rose to ask the Secretary of State for the miserable process of a bloody war ; but when these
Foreign Affairs whether he could give the house an as- , favourable results do appear to rise up before us it is not
gonna that no step would be taken Which might commit too much to hope that the three parties to the war—
this country to any Intervention in the war now proceed- namely, Germany, on the north, Austria, and Italy—will
Log on the continent without giving parliament • previous Ibe both stronger end happier, and in better harmony
opportunity of expressing its opinion as to the policy of together after the war than they were before it. That
such intervention. He said that,having a lively noolleation blessed consummation, I think, we should all desire, and
of how this country had drifted into the late ruinous Wary whether much or little be in our power, we should do
very much through a want of confidence between the pulls, nothing to impede or prevent it. (Cheers.)
went and the government, he thought he should be neg- Lord STANLEY—This debate has lasted for sonic thee,
letting his duty if he did not now endeavour to get some and, as was to be expected, many and various opinions
official information from government as to the : have been expressed. I hope it will not be supposed that
coarse they were likely to take in the present r neesalartly agree with those opinions which I do not
critical state of continental affairs. Looking at the expressly mention for the purpose of saying that I differ
rospect of establishing a stable equilibrium in European from them, or, on the other hand, that I differ with those
politics, and upon the question of giving up these overgrown I opinions in which I du not go oat of my way to express
armaments, be thought nothing could be moor favourable , concurrence. I think that in the state of Europe the house
than the establishment of the great nationalities of Italy I will hold me justifiedfif I do not think it expedient to go
'and Germany. It must be obvious that both must from . into • general and detailed discussion of the political
the nature of the case be conservative powers. It was situation—(hear, hear)--and the more so as that situation
leraoriciitswithin the scope of imagination to suppose Italy •is changing not merely from week to week,
r the Alps in order to attack 35 millions of French j but from day to day, and I might almost say,
or 45 =Miens of Germans. The Germans, on the es the telegraph informs us, from hour to hour.
Geiser band, constituting one ef the very greatest I shall confine myself therefore as closely as I can to
European cations, would never feel any temptation those question' which have been put to me in the commie of
to pass their frontier to attack the territories I the discussion. First of all comes the question of the
inhabited by a different race. The real mission of Austria, I member for Wick. He wants soma tee that no
th
he believed, lay towards e east. Anyone that knew intervention is contemplated on our He wants some
what an enormous extent of territory she had in her Hun- assurance that this country will not into • war, as he
garisa possessions end lathe valley of the Lower Danube says we did into the Crimean war. He admits that the
would admit that she had there scope enough for • policy of the government is intended to be that of
greater empire than any that existed in Europe. He re- non-intervention, but he fears that it may be pis
pasted that her truemissionwasthecultivationand civilise- able to drift into • quarrel without intending
am of those enormous regions, which had hitherto been it. Now I suppose when the honourable member
desolated by protracted wan between Turks and Chcis- speaks of intervention, he is speaking either of
tans. Such a settlement as he had suggested would be armed intervention or of intervention of such • nature
far better for Austria than a peace formed upon the pro- as though not immediately, yet in its ultimate results,
posed cession of Venice to France, which, he believed, might lead to an appeal to physical force. If that is what
would be only a source of permanent irritation between he refers to, all I can say is that if the speech delivered by
the two countries. (Hear, bear.) His (Mr. Laing's) object Lord Derby not long ego in another place, if the opinions
was to obtain from the noble lord an official assurance which I myself have invariably expressed upon the subject,
somewhat similar to the unofficial one which, on • recent not merely when occupying the position I now bold, but
occasion, he bad given to his constituent'. He did not ask for many years past, when these questions were under dis-
or expect him to give say absolute pledge that under no 'euasion—if, which is infinitely more important, the unani-
circumstances would he enter into any "Mena a media- mous feeling—for I believe it amounts to unanimity—both
Moe, but he trusted that nothing in the shape of an armed of parliament and of the people out of doors is that we
mediation would be assented to by to government with- ought not to be dragged into) these continental difficulties
out consulting parliament. (Hear, hear.) —if all them things taken together do not constitute a
Mr. HORaidAN also rose, in pursuance of his notice, to guarantee that ours will be a pacific and observant policy,
cell the attention of the house to the state of affairs on the then I am unable to understand in what language a
continent, and to address questions to the Secretary of stronger guarantee can be provided. (Chien.) Is the
State for Foreign Affairs as to the communications that intervention of • different character? Is it intervention
had passed between her Majesty's ministers and those of in the name of friendly advice tendered by a neutral
foreign powers. The right hon. gentleman observed that power ? I think the question whether intervention of
thedip/omacy of England was interpreted abroad to such that kind and under particular circumstances is
an extent by the opinion of parliament, that it was the desriable or not, is a question which must notes-
duty of the house not only to express its sentiments, but eerily be left to the discretion of the executive govern.
evento extract from thegovernment &declaration of Renews. ment. (Hears bear.) lam notpersonally very fond of the
Prussia and Italy had justice on their side. and the Em- system of giving advice to foreign governments. (Hear.)
peror of the French was too wise not to admit it. He I entirely agree with what was said by the right hon.
knew that be had no right to interfere either in Italy or gentleman opposite, that you are never more likely to
Germany—that he had nu longer to deal with sovereigns lessen the influence of England than when you are con-
and their ministers, but with enthusiastic populations "tautly trying to exercise it by giving advice. I think the
fighting fornationality, and determined and able to achieve right of giving advice has of late years been largely used
it. (Cheers.) Whether Austria was to remain a member (bear, hear)—and I venture to think that it has not only
of the Germanic Confederation was entirely a German been used, but abused. (Cheers.) There is truth in the
question, to be Nettled without any reference to France or proverbial saying that lookers on see more of the game
any other power. It was true the Emperor at an early than the players, and cases do occur when interference in
stage, and under a different state of things, had expressed the sense of a friendly and neutral power, or a
a very strong opinion that Austria should remain • great power which is well known to have no interest of
German power, but events had been too rapid and too its own to serve, no desire to gratify but the restoration
strong for him. Austria had ceased to be a great German of peace, and permanent peace—there are times when
power. She had been driven out of Germany by a smaller advice so offered may tend to shorten the duration and
power than herself. The fall in Germany was an socom- limit the extent of a war which might otherwise spread
plished fact, which no diplomatic phase could alter, and to wider proportions. That, I apprehend, is the practical
no human authority could revoke. (Hear, bear.) Did 'question upon which the house wishes to have an answer
Austria believe that France would, or even could, restore from me. I wish distinctly to assure hon. gentlemen and
her by force? The Emperor of the French was too wise to the country that at this moment the British government
attempt to do so. He (Mr. Horsman) had atated that at stand, as regards these European controversies, free, on-
the beginning of the war he did not sympathise with pledged, and uncommitted to any policy whatever. (Hear,
Prussia. He regarded the war as having been brought bear.) The sole diplomatic actson which the present
about by an arrogant and unscrupulous minister, who bad government have taken, and it was almost the
to deed with • discontented population and a reluctant first action which we had to perform, was
army. But as event. developed the character and policy that of supporting in general terms, at Florence
of that minister he felt it was impossible to deny that he and Berlin the proposition made by the French govern-
had shown himself to be ama of rare power, with a high merit for the temporary cessation of hostilities. It seemed
CrX7and that he had achieved a great work in which to us that to support that proposition was on our part
,flonman) wished him God speed. (Hese, hear.) simply an act of humanity and of common sense. (Hear,
He had reconstructed Italy, he had regenerated Germany, hear.) The house must recollect what were the circum-
and the Emperor of the French was too wise not to know stances of the case. Venetia had been ceded—not indeed
that when .10 millions of Germans were determined to be a to Italy—but ceded by Austria. A great battle had been
united nation all the emperors in the world were powerless fought. A decisive victory had been gained. Austria had
to prevent it. (Cheers.) Ho hoped that the Emperor who, invoked the mediation of France, and France had
more than any other sovereign, was interested in the pre- accepted the part of mediator. She asked us to
serration of peace, was prepared to accept mann- support, not terms of peace—that would have been
pliahed facts. His having addressed or being about premature—but merely the general proposition for an
to address England was an evidence of that, and armistice, in order that the belligerent parties might
he hoped the Emperor would be met cordially, have time to consider whether in the totally altered state
and that the good offices of the two governments of circumstances it might not be 'possible to substitute
would be joined to press upon Austria the wisdom of negotiations for further bloodshed, and to obtain the re-
accepting accomplished facts, and of terminating • war sults of the war without continuing the war any further.
which she can have no interest in prolonging. He had We did not think it was in our power to refuse assent to
heard the objection made that the aggrandisement of that proposition. (Hear, hear.) But while in general
Prima would destroy European equilibrium. He had terms we have supported that proposition for an armistice,
often looked for the equilibrium of Europe, but could we have pledged ourselves to no terms or oonditions of
never discover it. Russia, a colossal power, overshadowed peace whatever. We have pledged ourselves to nothing
her neighbours on the one side. France, an overruling beyond the general advice that an armistice should take
continental power, disquieted her neighbours on the other. place. The circumstanced under which that advice was
Where was the balance to be found? Austria and Prussia given have now passed away. Our mediation, our advice, has
since 1815 had figured as second-rate despotisms. not be officially asked by any competent power, and it has
The small German sovereigns were so many nonan- not been given or offered by us. The right bon. guide-
thin. Italy had been treated as • vassal of man •the member for Stroud asks me whether there is any
France. Now they beheld Italy shaking off her expectation of an armed intervention or mediation on the
dependence and walking in her own strength ; Austria part of the French government. Well, it is pot my pert
driven to abandon her absolute policy and seeking her to answer for other governments than my writ (Hear,
strength and safety in the good government of her domi- hear.) All I can say is that I have not the slightest reason
Mons and the love of her people ; and Prussia at the head to believe that any step of the kind is in contemplation,
of Germany, an intellectual and aspiring nation, awakening and I have every reason to believe that no such step is
from her long lethargy, working out her political freedom thought of.
with now national life—a new great power in Europe—a Mr. HORSMAN—I did not ask that question.
new guarantee for the peace of Europe. (Cheers.) That Lord STANLEY—Ibeg the righthon. gentleman's pardon.
was a consummation indeed to be desired by England— It was another hon. member. The right hon. gentle-
one worthy of the highest ambition of the greatest mi- man asks two question'. The first is whether the
mister—and it was one which he trusted the noble lord British government have been invited by France
would use his utmost efforts, in connexion with the en- to unite with her in a joint communication.
lightened Emperor of the French, to promote. It be Now to tat my answer is,that the French government took
should contribute mainly to effect it, it was a consumma- the matter up, and it now rests with that government.
tion which would redound to the noble lord's lasting ho- The French government may or may not ask us to join in
noon (Cheers.) the work of mediation. If so, Ido not think it would be
Sir G. BOWYER said he believed there was n• well for the British government to join in any such media-
Englishman, whatever his political opinions might be, who tion until we know distinctly what the terms proposed by
did not look with reverence and admiration ou the heroic France are. (Hear, hear.) The second question asked by
conduct of Austria. (Oh.) An honourable member said the right hon. gentleman is this—Whether the British
"Oh," and he was ashamed of him. (Laughter.) The man government has expressed • disposition to confer with
who could not admire military prowess, and the endurance the government of France in recommending Austria
of defeat with undoubted pluck and undiminished resist- to terminate the war by accepting the terms
ance, did not deserve any observation he could address to proposed by Prussia and Italy, the cession of Venetia, and
him. (Laughter.) Hetrasted the government would consider ceasing to be a member of the German confederation? Now
the interests and the rights of our ancient ally Austria, and as to that, Venetia has been, as I understand, ceded, so
would not entertainsopreposlerons a notion as her exclusion far as Austria is concerned. Whether any question will
from the Germanic Confederation. He trusted they would arise as to the cession being absolute or conditional, Ido
not fall in with the views of France, which appeared to be not know, still I apprehend that none of us can entertain
founded upon some agreement between Prussia, France, a doubt that the final result must be that Venetia must
and Italy for the purpose of making their profit out of the pass from Austria. Veuetahasbeen conquered in Germany,
misfortunes and troubles of Europe, and he trusted they and whatevermay be the mode of transfer, Ido notthink any
would not forget what was due to the south of Italy. The reasonable man can doubt that Venetia at no very distant
government of Florence had not gained Venetia by their period will belong to Italy. Then with regard to the
own prowess, for they had been defeated by the Austrians, question whether we will recommend Austria to terminate
and if they received Venetia they would receive it through the war by accepting the proposal to cease to be • member
a conspiracy with Prussia. of the German confederation, on that point I must remind
Mr. GLADSTONE, having first rindicated with some the right hon. gentleman that it has never, so far
warmth, in answer to Sir G. Bowyer's attack, the Italian as I am aware, been proposed as the sole condition
policy of Lord Palmerston's goverment, mid that, what- of peace, that Austria should cease to be •
ever the origin of the war might have been, we must now member of the German confederation. No doubt
look at it as bearing upon the happiness and freedom of various preliminaries of pesos have been discussed,
Europe, and consider how we could best use our influence but if the question were narrewed to that narrow issue
to promote those objects ; and, adverting to a remark of Mr. whether Austria could obtain peace by ceding Venetia and
Horsman, he contended that the influence of England was by ceasing to be • member of the German confederation
best preserved by refraining from elaborate schemes to pro- that would be a question on which we should be in • con-
moteit. Indisensaingourduty, he exhorted Lord Stanley not dition to give an opinion. But we have no reason to
to forget that the cause of Italy II&B dear to the people of I know that the granting of these two conditions would be
this country, and warred him that theywould never forgive , sufficient to produce peace, and when we do not know
• policy which attacked her unity and independence. ! actually and precisely what may be the terms likely
Turning to Germany, he maintained that for years past to be accepted by one or the other of the belligerents,
▪ had been • perpetual weakness to Europe, and that it would be clearly premature for us to express an opinion
often our estimates bad been increased by millions on ac- on an abstract question as to what might or might not
count of what might happen to her. The struggles of Airs- .be accepted. With regard to the general policy of this
tria and Prussia for predominance had been an immense in- country, I have only one remark to make. I think there
jury to Europe and to Germany, and the elevation of one never was a great European war in which the direct national
power to • position to wield the influence would be an un- interests of England were less concerned. (Hear,
mixed advantage even to the loser. Her old position had hear.) We have all our sympathies in this
been both in Germany and Italy anything but beneficial question. The Italian question I look upon as
to Austria, and though he lamented the unprecedented at- not being very distant from • final settlement.
tempt to introduce • third party into the strife by oeding With regard to the other possible results of the war, the
Venetia to France--which might prevent her parting from establishment of a strong North German power, of a
Italy on such friendly terms—the loss of Venetia, which strong compact empire extending over the North of Ger-
need not at present, at least, involve the loss of Trieste, many, I cannot think that if the war ends, as it possibly
would be • gain to Austria. Even if she were excluded may, in the establishment of such a power, the existence
from Germany, she bad still • glorious task before her in of such a power is to us any menace or any danger.
the cultivation of that vast and fertile territory and the (Hear, hear.) It may be conceivable enough that
civilisation of those millions of subjects which the growth of such a power may be viewed with
would still be left to her. What (continued some jealousy, and possibly with some distrust by other
the right hon. gentleman) will be her population? European powers, to which it may act as a rival and •
She will still have, I imagine, a population of some thirty- check. But the position is not ours, and if the North of
two or thirty-three millions. She will still have • Germany is to become • great power, Ido not see that
country of enormous fertility. She is not so favoured as the interest of England would in the slightest degree be
other countrieswith reganl tothecommand of seacoast, but affected by it. I have now answered as explicitly as I
I take it for granted that she will retain her great see could the various questions that have been put to me, and
port upon the Adriatic. I will not say what might be I think I can assure the honourable gentleman the
reasonable after • long protracted war ; but if these things member for Wick that there is no danger so far as human
are to be settled by equity, or any other power but the foresight goes of this continental complication involving
sword, it appears that no rationality or historical gm- the country m war. I think in the next place that if we
grapby would justify them in including Trieste in Italy. do not intend to take part we ought to be exceedingly
(Hear, hear.) She will have vast space of undeveloped cautious how we either use our influence or hold out any
territory, and vast amounts of undeveloped resources. She illusory hopes. (Conservative cheers.) If our advice is
will have all those millions agreeing together and combined asked,and if that advieeeeema likely to be of practical use,
together under the influence of good institutions. She has Ido not think we ought to refuse to give it, but when we
shown herself—and I give her the greatest honour for it— give it, as that which we think best under • deep sense
under the influence of an enlightened ministry, in the last of moral responsibility, as being the best in our judgment,
twelve mouths, superior to one of the most tenacious we ought, I think, carefully to avoid involving this country
prejudices that still fetter the human spirit in in • war in which our interests are not concerned. I
regard to freedom of commercial intercourse. It think we ought not to place ourselves in such a position
is impossible too highly to commend the Aus- that any other nation can say to us, "We have done so

j'.T •I

and so on year filvice ; we have suffered for it ; you have
brought us into the difficulty, and therefore• you
see bound to get us out of it." (Hear,
hear.) I have now stated all that I think it is possible
for me to state, and knowing as I do how utterly impos-
sible it is for any member of the executive to carry on the
badness of his department without the support of
public opinion, it only remains for. me to say that as far
as the nature of the case allows, I shall always be anxious
that the house shall be conversant with everything that is
done. (Cheers.)
Mr. M. 00011RAIIE said he was sorry to bear some of
the optmans expressed by hon. gentlemen opposite. They
all of them said they were * favour of non-intervention,
and yet they were not actually in favour of it.
He trusted that the policy of the present government
would be the exact opposite of the policy of the past,
for he believed that all the continental complications of
the last three years had been cinch aggravated by our
official meddlimg. He did not wish to detain the house,
but he congratulated the house and the country on the
policy which the noble lord had enunciated.
Mr. WATICIN, on being called by the Speaker, post-
poned until Monday the motion of which he had given
notice, for a royal commission to inquire into the causes
which bad produced the present pressure on the money
insricet.

. • •fl

THE

URT&

WESTMINSTER.
Mr. Arnold gave judgment yesterday in the case of Mr.
Scott Russell. He said—l ely regret that I should
not have been able to give m • 'on in this case before,
but I felt it necessary previously to doing so, not only
to read over twin all the evidence that had been laid
before me, but also the whole of the evidence given by Mr.
Scott Russell upon the trial of the petition of right in
1863 ;and my timehasbeen somuch occupied that it is only
lately that I have been able to do so. • One of the issues
raised on the petition of right was, whether or not an in-
vention fortheconstructionof shipewhichhadbeenPatented
by ILL Clare in 1853 wan& novel invention ; unlit was on that
issue that Mr. Russell's evidence was mainly given. Not,
however, wholly so, for at the close of his examination by
counsel he gave some very important evidence in answer to
the Lord Chief Justice's questions, into the insufficiefloy
of Mt. Clare's specification, end as I understand it was on
that issue that the jury gave a verdict adverse to the claim
of Mr. Clare. Still, there can bo no doubt that Mr. Rua-
sell's evidence was in the highest degree material to the
other issues, and he is now charged with having given that
evidence falsely. When the application was feat
made to me by Mr. Poland for a summons against
Mr. Russell it was stated that his evidence was
to the effect that a vessel called Her Majesty
which had been built by him in the year 1850 (three r Are
before the date of Mr. Clare's patent) was constructed
upon the same principle as that of the 'Warrior, meaning.
as was said, that the two vessels were entirely constructed
on the same principle. The passages that were selected
from Mr. Russell's evidence, and which I am bound to say
appear to have been selected without say unfairness, un-
doubtedly appeared to me to bear that meaning. The
models of Mr. Russell's tinsel and the Warrior that were
produced showed that the two vowels were certainly not
entirely constructed upon the same principle; nevertheless
I hesitated to pant the summons, and I did not scruple to
state publicly that I could not conceive
lion and
that
a gentleman of Mr. Russell's well-known tion and at-
tammenta would have wilfully forsworn himself in such a
matter. I thought it probable that be had mistaken the
vessel he was speaking of for some other which had been
built upon that principle, and that he would be able tho-
roughly to clear up that mistake, and I ultimately con-
sented to issue the gammons only upon the condition that
Mr. Clam would forego his right to call upon me to bind
him over to prosecute in the event of my dismissing the
summons, if I should do so upon arriving at the conclusion
that it was impossible that Mr. Russell could be convicted
by a jury. The defence, or answer, that has been set
up by Mr. Rowell is certainly quite different
from that which I bad anticipated. It was not
disputed that the whole of his evidence did apply to the
ship Her Majesty, but it was said that his evidence was
never intended to convey that that ship and the Warrior
were otitstructed alike, but that when he said they were
constructed on the same principle, he meant merely that
the principle on which the Warrior was built had been
practically introduced in the construction of his ship. I
have read over his evidence most carefully, but even with
the aid of this explanation given by his advocate, I
errifees that the impreertan conveyed to my mind is, that
Mr. Remelt stated, though not in exact or precise
words, that the two vessels were built alike, i. e.,
that the principle on which they were built was
carried out through the entire fabric of both vessels.
lint I am not at all prepared to say that a
jury would come to the same conolusion ; and upon
ao grave a charge as that of perjury, if there were any
doubt as to Mr. Russell's real meaning, they would
assuredly give him the benefit of that doubt, and, there-
fore, entertaining the opinion that it is improbable, ex-
tremely improbable, that a conviction would follow, I
shall refuse to commit Mr. Russell for trial ; but, at the
same time, I feel that this improbability of a conviction,
however great, is very different from the impossibility a
one which I contemplated when I imposed the condition
I have mentioned on the prosecutor. In other words, the
answer to the °swishy no means so complete and satisfactory
as I expected it would have been when I issued the sum-
mons. I consider, therefore, that though I shall not commit
Mr. Russell to be tried for perjury, I ought to release the
prosecutor from the promise I exacted from him, and to
remit to him the right be would have under the statute, so
that if he thinks fit he can require me to take his resogni-
ranee to prosecute ; but before Mr. Clare adopts that
course, which, from what I have seen of him, I suspect he
would of his own accord be too prone to do, I trust he will
reflect upon what I have said as to the extreme improba-
bility of obtaining s conviction, and will consider the great
expense it will put him to in carrying on what is
likely to turn out an unavailing prosecution, and will
act upon the counsel of his legal advisers, who ere so much
more competent to form a cool, and therefore correct
judgment upoc the case tban he himself, with the feeling
perhaps not an unnatural one—that injustice has been
done him—can possibly arrive at. I therefore propose to
adjourn the case for a few days, and if Mr. Clare's de-
cision is to call upon me to bind him over, notice shall be
given the other aide, that they may attend and hear the
depositions read over.