The Express.
London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

(Stamped Id. Additional.) [TWOPENCE:

on fair ground, it was most important not only that the bill
should be rotated bi a oonsiderable majority, but that the
majority should be so large and overwhelming as to render It
manifestly hopeless to carry a bill for absolute and Quintal-
Mal repeal. (Cheers.) Hs would venture to say to the
Moaners oa the part of the church and on the part of her
Mokay's government that they should be met to the
met Madly and conciliatory spirit; otherwise they
west Mad by the present kw. (Hear, hear.)
He wee convinced that the larger the majority
avast messationa repeal the better prospect there would
be el highs di pieties to a reasonable and fair settlement
of this_grest and mod important question. (Elm, bear.)
The addle earl mended by moving that the bill be read a
eseend time that day six mouths.
The Angebishop Se CANTERBURY, who spoke very in-
distinctly, was understood to say that some legal provision
was absolutely necessary for the support of the fabric and
the religious services of the church, and he believed that
nine-tenths of the parishes of the country entertained that
. Under the voluntary system the clergy would be
In a situation the most distressing and galling. He
that the change now proposed would, if carried out,
be prodathe of very great evil, and that the result would
be diet the next generation would see many of our churches
is a dale of decay and ruin. (Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE observed that it bad been said, sad
sold truly, that • gnat majority of their lardships had not
hem contesitted to say opinion on this don at all. There
ware ems eximplisme—thes• test
umneseeis of the het twenty years, sad se= to the two
last who were so der committed that they
he seppeald to latiosnosel by the opinions given by
plan.anther
onseir=isieess for they f !Plat fothe
the question now
firsttiiae a
bill far the 'balks of church rates bad bee passed by
the other lows. He had carefully and contchetiously sen-
sitised the coarse It was his duly to take, end he had come
to the conclusion that he should vote for the second reading
of this bill, and he believed that the passing of this
bill would be most sdventageocis for the church Itself.
The law had been kid down by great authorities that even-
Lard Leotards laid it down, to hts great surprise,
that ties chunk had the same this to church rates that their
lordships had to their private property. There was Co doubt
that by the common law of England thee wee the right and
the duty to repair the fabric of the church, and that the mode
of dots( so was by church rates. But, on the other hand,
there was no reenedy. This being the state of the law, what
we the state as regarded the facts ? As their lordships
were aware, la a lary number of parishes church rates were
modally and eon dshrly abashed.
• Noaca Lome —la sot more than dye per cent.
Earl GRANVILLE mid the noble lord was referring to
the number of perishes neer don to the population. It was
sat neeessay far Me to sake to the bickering end the strife
oteedead by this aeon of akin. He believed that at this
mama Ewe was an which was likely to in-
mate the asubw Oper argenbothe
able in which no rate was levied,
MA kr whisk the enmities would be Waded even to the
rare) perishes. ba considmed that the longer the
netilseent of this qemilee see deferred the more difficult
would they find it to MI will. Printed papers were circu-
lated showing the best way of opposing the levying of a
Me. and be barred It had arrived at this point. A calcu-
lates was mob as to the time—he believed it was three
yeare—iming which they might successfully oppose
the pampa. He appealed to their lordships whe-
ther this was • slate of thiags which it was
desirable should be continued. 'Different modes of
getting rid of the difficulty had been proposed. The use
proposed by his noble friend was to abolish church rates
altogether, and to leave the maintenance of the kirks to
robsetary efforts. He was not so much afraid of the
veinatery principle es some of their lordship who
bed spokes. He found that the parish churches, where
cherub rates wen no longer levied, and the didriet
churches to which church rates were not applicable, had bees
better supporta than the churches is parishes where the
rates were still levied, and he could not believe that a
great and wealthy establishment like the thank ef
England, comprising amongst its members the most
wealthy la the -land, would suffer the churches to
fall into decay for want of repair. As to the ehareeter of the
opposition to church rates, it was admitted on ell hands that
hostility to the established church did not characterise the
whole of the opponents to church rates, and he believed that
• great number of the Mestere wen friendly, and not hos-
tile, to the established church. He Matted' however, that
iita=n of them were diametrically opposed to the este-
aura, and that they supported this measure as a
mass of subverting tt. If their lordships rejected this bill,
, they would promote the views of the latter party he had re-
heed to. He did not agree with his noble friend that ft was
advisable to peso this mammy sad suspend its opera-
tion. The speech of the noble earl (Earl of Derby)
showed him that he had carefully considered as
subject, and he (Lord Granville) thought the best course was
that their lordships should egret to the second reeding of the
bill, and that they should go into committee of the whole
house upon it or refer it to • select committee, and if goven-
meat would then take upon themselves to introduce amend-
moots, that would be a more satisfactory way of coming to a
conclasion on the subject than rejecting the bill, and waiting
for the pledge of the noble lord that he would bring in a bill
next year. He should therefore vote for the second reading
of the bill, firmly believing that the sooner they could arrive
at a settlement of this question the better it would be for all
paths concerned.
_ .

The Bishop of LONDON, from experience, doubted the
efficiency of the voluntary system ea a permanent source of
revenue. The bill would merely transfer 300,0001. per an-
num to the bankers' accounts of the landed proprietors of the
country.
Earl GREY strongly condemned the bill as a measure of
lujuatioe and robbery against the labouring poor of the land.
They were entitled to have their churches maintained, and
sweeping away that legal obligation wee an undisguised
spoliation of the poor by the rich.
Lord CAMPBELL thought abolition without an equiva-
lent was impolitic end unjust.
Lord PORTMAN supped= the bill merely because some
pressure was required to produce a settlement.
The Bishop of OXFORD mid he did not believe
that the protestant dissenters would gets anything by
the poising of this bill. The different soot. of protestant
diameters were now upheld in piece b 7 the overshadow-
ing influence of a common mita t (Hear)
The only body which would profit by the passing of this
bill would be the intraidve papacy. (" Hem" end laughter.)
He Douai, teachers, their lordships would show by a deci-
Dive majority that they were not going to yield up this for-
trees of religion, whilst they declared themselves ready to
settle the question by calm and mild adjustment on all
oldie. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY, who rose amidet loud
calls for a " division," said that he could not allow the dis-
card= to dose without protesting against the
end unfair imputation of the right rev. prelate who
ilt
spoken, that the agitation of the dissenters of this country on
this question did not arise from a ootuicientious objection to
etiarel rates, bat that this question wee put forward as a
covert and indirect attack on the established church. (Hear.)
The noble earl opposite yielded on the question of the church
cede in Ireland. (Hear.) That did not lead to warden
from tie church, but gave greater security to the property of
the established church in Ireland. There was nothing more
dangerous than to blindly things which were not identical.
(Beer.) It wee remarkable that no noble lord bad spoken
tbst night who did not adroit that the law was in • most
enatUd•ctory state. (Hear, heir.) He thought, therefore,
the best octane he could take ems to vote for the
reading. (Elea; hear.)
After a few words from the Dsk• of tionznerr,
Their lordships divided :
The numbers were—
Present. Proxies. Total.
Contents
Non-Contest lO9 .... 78 .... 187

Majcsity
The bM wee earequestly leek
THE DURHAM COUNTY PALATINE JCR'S-

should call the attention of the house to the administration
of military kw In this country by naval sad military courts
martial, with tha view of amending the law sad of sasibliag
the wart to take evidence upon oath; aim aZhwastahoregr:
move for lam to bring in a bW to Improve the
of Judie* by worts of--

quieter modoes.
THE -INDIAN ARMY.
81r DE L. EVANS asked the President of the Board of
Control whether it was true, ea bad boa aimed fa the
public journals, that a commission was to be appebted to
consider the reorpnbetion of the Indian new.
Lord STANLEY said he stolid ea the aawal wain of
the ladle Bill that It was the intention if Hs apraumeat
to appoint mph s commission, and that ft would be ssaerwd
as follows: three officers of the Indian anp, thus skew
of the Clason'a ansy, who bad served for • offiala *as la
India, three civilians of eminence and the Oemneseelsesite
Chief, the Secretary of State for War, and tha Baatelary
the Board of Cecilia.
STATE OP THE THAIdEB.—BATTERSEA PA3.
Mr. H. BERKELEY melted the Chid Commielmer of
Work+, the following question :—Whether he had 3011111111 i
any communication from the bletropohten Board of Wads
respecting the nude drainage of the metropelis—enE,Ese,
requested that he would state whether the outran of thessou
mr,proposed to take place on the north 'ideal Etnefag
nearly opposite to the Arsenal at Wooled*. or
whets? The honourable member Mated theta me, Mpmg
=prevailed oat of doors that ea the very
of the Mate of the Themes them greed
apathy on the part of the house—(a laughl—end on the
pert of the government, who ought to have come down I.
*be house, have taken the initiative, end have asked for
plenary powers and grappled with this greet evil. Ink*
matter were noedealt with before parliament rose, it would
no doubt be red-taped and hung up, and perhaps not
dealt with at all. He was surprised at the silence d
the metropolitan members—(a laugh)—and still more
surprised at the opinion of those members, who
seemed to think that the matter should be dealt
with locally and not nationally. The people had a eight
to require that the question should be dealt with by the
nation. If the government came to the house for plenary
P° Dim could do infinitely more than all the boards to-
getwherin.Their. legislation, in part if not wholly, had
caused this evil. (Hear, hear.) Some years ago the mem-
bers of both houses found their olfactory nerves much affected
by the nuisance of night carts ; that wee about the time of
the reign of Mr. Chadwick, who wee considered an authority
for everything. Among the powors entrusted to him was
that of preventing night carts from coming
" Between the wind and their nobility."
-

(Laughter.) What was the consequence? Why, that the
' ordure of thia great city wasi conveyed away not in carts, but
Chadwick and the House of Commons plunged 100,000
asss-
pools into the Thames. The stuff was there out of eight,
and the Hour of Commons and the House of Lords never
for one moment fancied that there were poor inhabitants on
the banks of the Thames who could not get away from the
nuisance. If extraordinary heat had not prevailed and the
noses of how. members been affected the matter might never
have been *mattered. When they were affected it was asto-
nishing to see hon. gentlemen who had been partkm to
throwing this filth Into the river, turning round and saying,
God bless me, where can it come from P"
Westminster
&tag • what are they doing in the City of London ; has the
Lord layer got into Petticoat-lane P' (Loud laughter.lt
wee neomeary thipta=should give fall power to counteract
this evil. He to them on behalf of the inhabitants
of the banks of river whose noses were forced to be ore-
tinselly in the moth, who could not go to their ma
houses and to the moon. There were also the merchantaZ
beakers who were tied down to their places in the
city. He trusted that the government would give some pro-
mise that before the house rose they would ask for those
=which they ought to be proud on this comics to
It was • opmetka which the government should
be ready to meet. Let them prove their utility. They were
a week government, and they would strengthen themselves
lithely net this evIL If they did not do so, they would de-
serve the contempt they would meet with from every clam of
the oostratinity.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that before the question wee
answered he could not help saving • word ea to the arraign-
ments connected with this muter. A sheet time ago an
km gentleman connected with en importaat distriot of the
theropohe gave notice that be would bring this subject under
the oenelderation of the house He whited to know from
whence the funds wen to proceed by which this peat work
was to be accomplished ? The honourable and talented
member (Mr. Berkeley) had rid that he had met
trialwho asked whence this smell proceeded. Now
is
Idemelf had not met any person who was outpace!
on that subject—(s laugh) though he had met
men who were much in doubt u to whence the funds were
to come to cure this smell. He would put it to the hon.
gentleman and to the government and the house if the matter
was so free from doubt, so very clear. A day should be
fixed at once, if possible, for the purpose of discussing the
matter. The subject was net lees urgent than it was said to
be. First, there was the great question of the mechanical
and material means for curing the evil ; and then there was
the second question, from what funds was the work to be
done. On the last question he entertained a decided opinion
—an opinion, he thought, not in unison with that of the hon.
gentleman. The important question was, were the people of
London to pay the cost of their own drainage,
as other places in England, whether wealthy or
poor, did. There remained behind • very
qmetien as to the local government of London, anit=gat
condition that local government was to be placed if they
called on London to do what was its du'y in this respect. He
might be excused from making a strong appeal to the go-
vernment to give an early day, before any great dispersion of
meenten took place, for discussing the question of the hon.
member for Finebury.
Mr. ALCOCK rose to call the attention of her Majesty's
government to the expediency of ascertaining the value of
the surplus land at Battersea-park, with the view of apply-
fog the produce of such surplus land (100 acres) to the
payment of the principal money and interest, amounting in
all to a balance of 284,7301 9s. 9d., due to the government in
respect of Battersea-park, Chelsea-bridge, and the embank-
ment of the Thames at Chelsea ; and to submit that Chao/a-
bridge be opened to the public toll free.
Mr. BBNTINCK said it had been stated by the hon.
member (Kr. Berkeley) that this wits an imperial and not a
local question, and he joined Issue with the hon. member.
They had not been favoured with any ar,,timent to show that
this was au imperial and not a local question. He believed It
was a strictly local question. The government were asked to
apply for plenary powers; bat to do what ? why, to porthole
kends into peoples pockets. It was a disgrace to the richest
city In the wor to hand round the begging box. He would
not allow one shilling to be taken out of the pockets of his
constituents if he could kelp it.
Mr. CUBITT thought it was right that every town should
pay for carrying its own filth, but if they imposed that
duty on the is., they ought to leave it to the motto-
polls to say how t was to be done. (Hear, bear.) The
house twelve years ago decided that every home should drain
into the sewer. and every sewer ran Into the Thames. Par-
liament oompelled every house to drain Into the river, and
though there were sewers for forty miles along the banks of
the Themes, they Mid the inhabitants of the metropolis should
pay for assainse the river.
Lord Z. MANNERS sad If the hon. member (Mr. Berke-
ley) bed been in his place at the Board of Works for only 24
hours, he would name have dreamed of charging apathy
against the members of the house on this subject. The hen
was about the only one who had not within the
Cil.s
fortnighti suggested some plan or other. (A laugh.)
The hen gentleman had corns forward in • decided manner,
not to say what ought to be done, but that the government
ought to be Impeached if they did not do something. They
we=c•Lered to bring before parliament, at the very earliest
of , • measure to settle this loog-standing and die-
ourt;u7s.lioa. He believed that to raise questions upon this
subject now would only throw diAlcultite in the way of a
subject eseentially diult at present. He had been
asked whether the Board of Works bad seat any scheme foe
Wan sotion. He could ally say that the board tild yester-
day submit So him their plan, but of course be could and be
expected to give any opinion on hat ones. The pant where
the ostfall wee proposed to be by the plan was Barking-
meek. He most tespeolfully declined to ester into the quie-
tism whether the metropolis ought or ought not to pay for
thedrakusge, for he thought that that question ought to be
deferred= they produced the measure which they were de-
termined to produce at the wham possible opportunity.
CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS FOR THE-TROOPS IN