The Express.
London, England, 1860-06-05 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY -EVEI94Ip, 21:p NE 5, 1860.

ear inlet hablatra. sad the eaglet eIV Goa ow'
at smirks fierier by another ; sad le alt read
be beret to adhere to that rem ME wear set
three to tir ceembise coridering the latter gauss if it
Ireleferrard. At the sans tire lie lei aria faith
isttesisehaveL
sem
naik Mr. Benairk's retraction' • eueleidag
me wately lery and (orielaprea.is raid se
Wt defer by adding to the testnerisa the wade. " tint
relies lee takes by et."
The eat it wadi eat be in order to add
these writ to the inelnaellaa.

distWioaos their Swim Its ragas&
Loa IL OEM. atom aeon. wog
tint it wee weszely Se eseihlete issi"
Ned ' tie Idon Loommt list MI br
anwed tLraroo at task chat width mbar Lo sow guilty
of lassodasi Law : sad rarred M s moan he is Wires-
La In t paps with rotormoo to pravflasfee Wang
IL poll of idoodose by arm of vase }ores Is Le Lew
of lb. lISWAIsf, as* shish ohs thialms. pelima Ld
ILO is the astute,
the oath loremmtdas as oaisiss
that Lot pima 1111S_IPI4111_111
Xvi. IP. I pits! ont that the covert
oldest of aR Wee sinsmo7rsiMiwo to tits essaitbso
al shish sods bid lista *so, is siliias to somorest
sassrlassto, vat to &LS Le Rohm MI by Sand

le tbe amuse at No ebsleM,
Mr. B. /I=KMIMIT nil that dam& be we Net •
pen eibniellr el obeli. be bed essopted but los thelood
kat Y obseld he known tied es emir, tint the
enimetion to kdid not pwoasd hese an like roweinnenii
side el the bean, het hen the dim dds. (Ironing arms
hem lin ) If. Mid be aeon noes lion
the to tie bill an lb ether Sat. (CAM
" from tbe appoint' testa))
Tles erlLiEllit yr ben ankniesd to may net the ham
nenher wee net in oder in ming
_tin word " seem"
Mr. M. 111111XELZT prenserd to say that tires ores e
ink set neer is flie pinto ,—Onstior)—len notking meld
be norhOper thin- the boning iegother al the wet
be awns tbe bill n Wired mower in
= done en Attir the ioneweesm=sZ
led sane of tienn ming is any
me, shed alter the women, ,sontemnie tiny bed beil,
k a rather aging tee wadi ea ask an ly le art
Om to believe sew Mid they okskei be hstradnee panty et
elsolione as
,a.Mint pinkie We the MO, and tint one
the meson y propene& the remise resslnkm Dee
emery wee Imre that the MII nee
dieheletel to ben goillonon sprain. ind inn they
is einythint in their pewee be presseliper lone-
thing bed ben slid obese inteareng try moan oi
=ipapmw. Me nab lied were is amen la
to omen hiporkke widoit =into the
system al elestione, be weeM eel erabut be would adopt the emb Nei roseedy—ainerithi
ballot (Ineglier. soil derbies there hen the
opposition.) The bill Valid eernialy be brown
=far it mai net staid spinet the deny,
bed arils hi in pregreem It wee =I
inderneed not it wield le -*town out by
mesas. He did set Oak the government wire In tank
on that accouat. (bonsai &sue from the oppeokiem)
They bed done disk best to pose n HIM, %int
cheers.) All be would
iseictwon, let those ben.
who thought proper to it ban the eousequeeese with
the pe on their own milder. (Rem)
Mr. BLANEY objected to motives being attributed to
either side of the house, sod suggined • system of mutual
concessions as the beet means of anivng at • practical
result with regard to the bill, Arnim that if they did sot
succeed in a reform bull this radon they might
get one fee next year. (Laughter.) If Am. thought
the fninchhe was teo low IA these berg in • 6i)l ki Agee
(I.hu,ghter.) Ha spoke bone* One be nit wt be
believed the franchise was tee tow. (ltenneed needier.)
He thought a 6/. franchise we tee beer. (Deer .) He
spoke the .minion not merely of jusibmess de the oppo-
sition side of the house, but the opines cif many peke-
, men on that (the government) side. (Oprilian their.) He
believed, that 661. rating franchise would aid seen with
general concurrence.
The motion was agreed to.
The SPEAKER (in reference to two other 1•061/21/-0•0
by the hoe. member for Athlone, Mr. Itinis—"Tleali A be
ea instruction to the committee that it is expedient trig
owe uniform oath should he adminietered to all meenbura em
tabs[ their mate in this hour, and that such oath shall
be is future that d allegiance and fidelity to the succession
only ;" and the other by the hon. member for Waterfowl,
Mr. Haired— " That it be an instruction to the committee
to frame end insert in the bill a form of oath in lieu of
those now taken by each member of this house upon taking
his seat, without any distincticm as to religious lecomina-
Mao or praisraion") rid the two notioes of instruction—
that of the boo. member for Waterford and thaat of the
boa member for Athlone appear to me to
be oat of cede., and both of them for the
same reason, but for • reason entirely different from that
which I gave why the other instructions were out of order.
The other instructions were out of order because it was
competent for the committee to take the subject into con-
sideration without any instructions • hest these are out of
order because it would not be competent for the committee
to take them into emoideration even if they were
inasmuch as it has been ruled that all bills and mod:l7.'ll3'-
Iring to the orate of old members of this house must re
in the first instance through a preliminary committee oft he
whole house, and a resolution of such committee must be
If, therefore, it was attempted to pace a clause
to the old seated members in committee of the bill,
without • resolution el • preliminary committee, it would
be out of order. I condoler this to be • fatal objection to
the propmed swine for these ingredient
Mr-.IKASSARD aid, after the intimation of the Speaker's
opinion, he of erne should not attempt to proceed with
hie motion.

Xr. S. FITZGERALD made some observation which
was sot ',Wilde in the gallery.
The iiPEAKER anid it would be very irregular to give a
couditimal power-4hre the hems should have the power
to do something in the even* et aruesildag else being dose.
It waa objectionable and umesemsey,hsemme if • eamentliee
of the whole hones were appeireed surd sr altaratite d the
oath was carried, it weld be aseepatiet at ray tine to
move an isstatailae to the samilitin to ion mit es
alteration in the

Lord J. KUMIELL-1 now ries to move that the ham
go Into nom ngletee cm this bill, sod in doing so I cannot re-
frais from soeislag the objections that have been made, sot
In thin home bat ant of doom, to oar proceeding with this
bill, end draw ties cotes which the governmeot intend
to take. Now In ties bet place I will answer a question
whit* we reed some time ago by en hon. gentleman
sitting co this aide of the house. He sated me
whether it was oar intention to proceed with the botch end
Wok bills in the coarse of the present session. I could
sot give him an answer at the time, but I stated I would
oe • future oocaskin tell him the views of the government
an the subject. I now esy that consider* thee immiling
• sew opinioa the English bin should ge tate seeendtko,
and that the franchise to be settied by thee
till should be agreed use, sad in het wonted
to by perinceset before those bins ere mended with, we
woe expect that we can proceed with either the Scotia
ar the Irish bile in the coons ef the preheat session.
Mar.) That, heinwer, does not swear to as to be say
MAUI% for not prom& Ng with the bar that mane keel.-
mitten We swain. (Hair' bear.) With repel to the
preasat hell, I least Wail the vanities of the grate sad
al this bows in 'wiped Is IL I ses not going too elate ter
petition of cm side of the bows or the —to make say
reproach to the other side of the hews with regard to their
emidnet es to tide ; but I amain MGM, pceitioo
et the boom generally, including bele Mee m thim gentle&
I. doing so I wish seriously ie esti the Weak= eir the
house to the subject, balsam if the eberectoor al the p.
venneent is isvdved by the mama which they have h.
traduced end in the tined ketreekang it, the character at
the house is also impliestal by We week in who* they deal
with th..t ineseure. (Bear, hear.) Now, sir, there an Ore
different questions which min; LW, with regard to We
substance of the weaver% end mat, with sword to the
now in which we pawn new to paned Who it in eon.
.Mee. With word Seth enbelease of the wiseeen I
will only nomedies
releticalled it teathaZt IS WWI
during the sewed howl ell railled, and
upon which the of km asswers
destructive of weperty. givira femme* prow over
hteMpuee, tending to Wafeekma to Ow Woh. wr
lowed. What I speak of is the beesaglo treambise •
and that franchise, without wow amealinehe piths:
hilly the rate at whisk it k propeeed te be
is intended to be confereed with • view. serteinliPirof
evil/ more power in the meeseetetion ef this house to tie
working awes. (Haar
_bear.) Ti abet preposition two
objections of thiamin bids have been week It wad be
admitted, 1 tick, widish mew* he what we. dew
la WI, that at theperand time very few penow
Meg to the working drew haw the right to vote. La hen.
gestkown, at prawn the umber lees the Wahl/ding,
stated iu the mune el wer dimeirelsee la the wet year,
that though he led_seny essa in bin limploymemi al pest
Mien coos, haniMoldere gmai distawler and peat re.
apectatwuty, in when he e,* sewilded, not cab et the..
awe bed a TIP* fie vote. Other inatanewe have hew
we& by ether hew putleaten al a aludier Mod. Well,
them, is it the objection that meow el the working slams
ehould be admitted to the finechise, or is it the °Wanton
Net this bill wash give web a pewee to the webby
elms, that they would everwbabe the PM et the 'oasts-
Prany, aed thumb, have la endwindwase ever property
(Oppwition cheare.) Wilk wiped Si the fret oNt, I
should say that en keg ago as INT the tight hog, pedlawan
the member for Heelse .id be wee plead-1 do sot quota
hew " Iderowd.' bat I have it partway frome he amid aid bekiwis plowed that I wheinfail bin the work*
her ought to bow the trenchea whoa we woo
dimenselag the mantra last year, the pules whisk was
oasis loy nee toMe House of Ossweams, and whisk wee
ferried toy a wegility, vies in the bet Owe that the awe-
far of the totipf vein hew esannise
need not to he mei, awl In the awl place Oat rent
did sot meths • winenkos in She borough fragelase ; that
is to W. thm objeeNtra wai that there was not an
we. a
the vwhimere° hf taw Woll, p aliwasat wee he.
solved won veto end the grownwent returned here.
The right hen. gentleases this armor for Baths elated en
fanner occasion abet timogonoworret to whisk be
and ef which be was or had" WI wade beg=
there should he • medneken fa the borough awry... awl
V" ha wee Premed to sweat to a what'"? senne-
puled with such provisione am would gated tie.=
a oar Institution., The right he.
and I hope he still swabs, am the MOM 1111—&-i1;11 petty

_ km/ sees I sated, I hire sees it in print,
Fathaletilimpbsii.
geat=efriruhrms
eptherbatieerao;
will state where I have seen it. I hire eau it in the
periodical whieh is supreed V‘ewthe mom the mem
suller4irty the tertertetig SW le
'hi to towit, aad Isd the
alms nght ha bits& the enles4
lotimiiiase. I semi bet wiped at Wert. Them wee shit
pent ow if dal, eed sew* of mem were le-
amid kr tai by &rpm ver. That I w our
prime ell slam se I moil es be teed I ma vym&
=ler. I foam& thaimpa of the cusamelive=
Vght hos. the maim fa
fer hens ismied
_to hle mwortity el the
seelleise el the rnavo party. (Ones el " No,
Ise hers the egmellies.) I quits epee with that
bum t maks beam the
ihellmes Dee was his tem * the high posi-
es *sea be* ass el the
lessed—by gred "lOW ha
e restart of pales able
sid efineeinee it hie bue Ids hefts to pee from NM Me
el the hems te eis UM% his mead the
el thin Aim the be wee hey ma-
Illeill=asiest the halms d lies may. Therefore I
are alder sit. ef the mien of the rig* lei. gestlemen
se WEI porring the riallesegg @ae great eeneenativet
. party -Khmers trim Ves ) Men ties, I sm,
with reprd to the masetima or so way *e
mites chars shoehl lave Vie aid whether
Were aged be • marelles of the hie for
ailat'eagspomv we have sep=ittlite of the
majority d the be Int hem the
asimil sad the someilikager itaa has.gendlema
et the ems the peel/ sus hat yes, is
dim The plead hen Isirodsoed a
bill which they theset did not carry the frau-
chime lower than it eight to be placed. You may
decide if we have led tee such aerates,, tee much faith,
hi the waking sides -Mims hems eft d • swim&
ree Thee yea am ay, but Vai to MS queen of
=I; the hs midis el tia. a•kia•iii ou
elleistlse lea the eisee el fie ice,fese it
is mile chi met mg* to hem egoism& the seem/ reed
leg ef the he Perri ham) TM if sot do se mid
thereiere I weird,est yes ere ad/ to comier the
manes el the slashes el the Tlinime I
see Need. 1 thick, ► Meg lath ries el the beim to
gp eunaillee, hens" the priMille beim addible Se
=Male to dee ftme that peeps emit be med.
im flionee we lase /sewed the feesehiee
wide is hi the be. I heed seam elnisellsee to that
fressitee. I have heard it aloha tha M meld hi
seed ovawbelin property ad Ishilimece. Thai
alpha she a questa= for the torriailes This / will
say, that if you_ will jprepin any measure
that has been inedid this emehicellber by raising the
fraeohise, by maim its Ming Mimi of a natal franchise,
or by Meg the assest et reds% or is smother way which
limber rimier netmdstiltimg agrat number
el voters who we nittemeheill the of pro-
cloc=el hiewledge mew
propestlios a lidkind shall
be hely— ...end by as is 'amities, aid I certainly will
sot take the come al maim that we are empletely wedded
is our maks to the &made. e that we have propord. I
think inn Way agree In committee to • trene thee the
house should prefer, it will then be our duty to say whether
we think the bill, with such as alteratks, would be •
valuable bill, and to declare, though we Met not think it
a shaege for the better, whether we could adopt it. I will
not speak, there is no secessity to speak, of other parts of
the bill. There is no roseeity to speak of the amity
franchise. I will only my that I think we are
in • position to go into oeseredttes on the bill
to decide that important imerieti. If you object
altogether to • reduction of the freasieles t Ins your duty
to have opposed the sexed rear& sad to have refused
altogether to refer the matter to • sinamiliee ; bat having
aimed that the sewed reading should pas without oppo-
sition, it is now the duty of the hones to consider in com-
mittee what are the particular propositions which the go-
vernment have to make. Well, now I will take the first
objection which is made in regard to the franchise, and that
is an objection which an hon. friend of mine is about to
rate by moving " that in order to obtain • safe and effec-
tive reform it would be inexpedient and unjust to proceed
further with the proposed legialative maestro for the re.
presenter= of the people until the bones has before it the
remits of the omens, authorised by the bill now under
consideration." Now I must say that, without imputing
any desire to cause delay, I cannot reconcile that motion
with any wish to have abill for the extension of the fran-
chise. (Cheers.) It would be three years before the
crow would be before the house in an authoritative form,
and it is proposed that for three years we should not go into
this question—that whatever may be the cir-
cumstances whatever the demand., however strung
the feeling may be, there shall be no amend.
meat in the representation of the people for three
years. And sow with regard to the borough franchise.
One may say that the objections to the borough end the
county franchise comprise ell the objections to the bill.
During the six nights debate on the second reading those
were the objections that were raised. And bow does the
erne of 1851 beer upon those objections! We have re-
nnet—you find fault with them, but we have rennin up
to the year 1858—which do not depend on the census of
1861, but on the rate-books for the year 1858, and you
might have them to • later period. Therefore, the main
question in dispute has nothing to do with the census of
1861, sod this amendment is • mere evasion—it is • mere
petting off on • very hollow pretence that which is the
question before the house. ((hears, and " No.") (ho any
man contradict me ? Neither the 61. borough nor the 10/.
county franchise is in any way affected by the census. Yon
may say. that the Si. householder is too poor, that
he is qpnosint, and will be bribed, but when you
have got the new cirrus you will be no wiser
as to the character of the 6/. and the 101. voter. There
is only one part of the bill that it does affect, that relating
to the distribution of seats. We have taken a certain
number of seats from boroughs with s population under
7,000, not became the number of 7,0510 wee &bead* Mg
Ctriy and arithmetically necessary in aids,fie es.
borollegh to return two members, any moire Shen hi
the bill of lag year the number of 0,000 was, in the
of the late government, necessary to return two ;
but we have takes the boroughs at the bottom of the
and have said it was desirable that places with a lawhie.
=Lwhich are sow ineariestly represented
e of the meether which the smaller boro
now entitled to retire. There eight be a of
one or two of those boroug bat no one can their
politics. They are the boroughs which have the minuet
maladies, and have the smallest impairs,. It nisrlas Viet
ass borough has gone up 500 and mother gene dem He
sad if we wait till the year 1863 we shall mho se lila
es remade the ohs borough or the ether ; bed is awe the
ansterial Were& of the earistry, apse the
peat quotties =isiegatt re se tapisksees
I hem made all the I wished le elle eft
tliti maths se es iiEt the deresier el the
house, ad mot se est Vie of the peered
DOT 'Magni IMO Aldose= I. the hill
for purposes of delay. , Ws) V.
z=op
maw say, " Here is • dompooNe and •
which we think it our duty sot to matenals,"' I believe
that the public might think that opinion hasty, bat they
would at all events regard it as dame. If,
however, they say that, though they have already
entertained the bill and given it a seemed reading, they will
not proceed with it say further, Aegis( the paltry
; duce that in three years they would have more mformetien
r to the amount of populallos is certain boroughs, this I
dy that Nobody will believe them (Cheers.) I now code
Ms the ether me., which I lime seen made for not pm-
,
with the UPI, eameir, that we have arrived et
= INSS
Jena and that it is Ilse Ms to ester int. committee,
became we mot take into ecediserion the remaining esti-
miss for the year. If the manse we. with regard to the
may sr eery abashes I midi mierehad that saw:tent,
beams them ere istiuudes of very peat Importance ;
but I °root conesive how hoer gentlerms can say that they
are in such haste to milder the miscellaneous estimates
that they cannot proceed with anseasure of such importance
r the amendment of the repreeseedien. Recollecting
whet had been dose in former eagles% I have looked
to use at what time the nreallenner 11Stilnii•O were con-
sidered in those years is while there was no diaeolution,
and I dal that in 1861 they were ociasidered on the 7th, the
11th, the 14th, and the 17th of July ; in 1858 they
were ss ulnlerad oa the 4th, sth, and Bth, of
it; in 1854, on the 3rd, 601. 7th, 25th,
17th, and 31st of July ; 1855, on the 26th, :110th,
and of July, and on the Ist and 2nd of August ; and in
es the 9th, 12th, 14th, and 15th of July. It has
lateeiy therefore, been the custom, when there was so
ellinhar, not to consider the miscellazeous estimate, till
• wash later period than the present ; mad with regard to
sew st the years I have enumerated, b masa be mid that
there were wading any measures of seek supreme im-
pedance that the house was required to pat the estimates
of till the het moment. No doubt those estimates give
rime to very interesting discussions debetes, for in
stenos, epee education in Great Britain and Ireland, upon
the prasides of religions liberty as regards the regium
datum, ups questions of criminal justice, nor
the appliejles al the an, arts to the houses of pal-
mation of that kind, but although those are
in tepees d discussion, it has aot bees le the
power or the niclination of the house to seer say Ivor
redeedim I remember es owed= on which the here
refried a grant to obtain two pictures of Sir Edwin
Isobar, which would no doubt bare hem admirable
*Mee at meals by which a part of the Home al Lords
Wed be. bees asionsuL (he another tlhe Raba el • gesthme who had
bees Mt Moran* by the Indess er the National Gallery
to teem Odom; bid if I were to date the seasomy
whisk heeler ellesied during the het seven years at
2,0001. a year I amid be azaggerating. (Neer.) I cannot
bellow, then, that then has sprung up all on a sudden
sash • sad tae essermy, or that the spirit of reduction and
relessemet shoed r sidieely have seised the house that
sera wait till Jaly to outsider the miscellaneous
eelfinetr Mies) I aaa told dial during the last year or
ewe liffinge hue boas mode in our financial system by
M m large a earplug left in the exchequer •
eatthat in order to allow the civil service estimates
en till July or the beginning of August,
it Et" be ter the Secretary to the Treasury to
isk her tiros to as he did the other day, for some
~deeds votes on amour. Bet that is merely • question
of detail ; and it is • question which would nut postpone
the coriderstios of the miscellaneous estimates to a period
at all later than the usual or. (Hear, hear ) I OMB only
way, therefore, of this mem as I said of the other —if

the hod Win .th
.sett
tt list Itwee mined
with emit • eilliat ailoolible=
civil swim ediestee,
in Inlaid, for thelestifillargetVert it
molt t= GI ihill bill-7I
in eat
mai ' II aelt be ilei de- -
mead el dem bad led fabled by a be
maid mei he mew ea one. Oa the eseliwy, %weld be i
I,
satilettennien ten tie rid el this 2
adisttearniti ad*
Kihm!“-)an
delel Me the Yr ae Ishii we
M.. 01111 Ma I Mad AMMO. ambles that
mete (sly at lib beCedes 41t=ilirillasLaw
tidally aßSecis
re dm the tit s se min siii,
Amid be aa yam • Mel Ode h
op iheo = VII aindetemsd. We me see
lilm ea hilleltieseleidei
within eidelalliallboisl we bow hightesol beim
brimses dew le ee deem why we shealli ad =MM it,
east why the !MOM el Imes shed& at miiidalto 11. as
VW bows 111611111. Mgr Air memos, be ether limes,
at amine whoa wad be . phew* pr
te give it
their esaeliwialise. i gliehl fled ad shad the means
elloy bilk the berise dead vied esewhittee Mk this bill,
ad dieted disble the varied eassitem whisk will oohs
beige it. flume awned ease tide It we pod
piss due gentians, there dale jeeps
at hid we sash maiddisit—es blew oder pidelmitlitribliwidelt
esethse memars to tide& is Yea bed eidese te
give Ible bal a mened nab*, awl yea bed dead Ad
aber de alsble' adds, aid if another bill wale b.s
l esedber sedan it
dale be sp
wild. on the seemed milky ; re
am eaU re:l2
tied anpmeste repelled, red probably with the
hobo melt. That would involve a eekm of
pall. time and a delay which would be y tin.
igresseary. (Hear, hear.) And whet be the
this at which the question would be nedad i You
night ham, as you have now, a thee d treavratity when 1
Tim are at peace with all the sakes of Europe ; but it
might also be • period ol commis:hi &errs (Hear, hear.)
It might be a period whoa war amend to be threatening
this country ; wheel rasa wadi Toe very loth to enter upon
such a question • at 1146160 'WO they would not be able
to give it a
itemised, ecasideratioe. If you ean but
mks up your as %what our franchise should be, if
yea era adept either the of the government, or
mess other prepoitioa *lda might seem wiser
or more ellimial WINO", the segimesntation, and
at the ade wade be eansistart with the
mk
hew ai Y.* halidlteet.llll de home eddy masieer it.
WeMe we tae emetics before
you. (Chime.) Irrelara—yea so of it ; but do ad
tretetat thhere=r "dr aleph: to theg=thetr=
who wadi hy their mum hews the hillsidey las bete
such, that I. a this of presperikr it ide2L.ell
pas
.away, if it come back at • thus af commerciel
it might wall seem irritation. Misr, hear.) I have7ll7SM
to an article ia • woriedical wide is pasally samosa to
repeemnit a gnat
party • adtit Is the way in which it
meals of the ANN* of this td2l—• gems my that the pub-
Hoene are to he eer meted ; dims the trades' unions.
It is • eholee—b?tween deksmehary and crime."
tired - -

(Hear, bear.) Mew mob as these sink in" the mind.
believe that imam the world% eimem there arc many men
to be found of greater hatelligmese sad equal integrity with
hountholders of ICC (Hear, hear.) Many of the latter are
beershop keepers and small shopkeepen ; and I believe that
worlds( mss in meat mem hays fully as much intelligence
sad es age integnty. (Chairs.) When it is said that
if you adopk'this bill you will ha governed by debauchery
or crime, can such kriging. produce any effect but irrita-
tion ! If you go on to consider the details of
this bill and to settle what your franchise
should be, what has been said will have but
a pealing effect ; but if you leave this question open by the
declaration that has taken plane—eloquent es that declara-
tion may have been—you will have dug a ditch between
the working sad the richer claases, of which you may have
occasion so repent. (Hear, hear.) I therefore seriously sad
earnestly est the house to go into a consideration of this
bill. If you think that Is provisions are rash, put is better
sad more secure one in their place, bat do not, whoa yea
have such a question before you, attempt to evade or con-
ceal its importance. Such a course will not produce any
feeling of trust in your sincerity, or respect for your deci-
sion. (Cheers.) I beg leave to move, sir, that you now
leave the choir.

Mr. DISRAELI was not surprised, after the lengthened
per
iod which bad elapsed since the noble lord had but ad-
the house on the subject of the bill, that be should
have gone at some lergth into a statement of its principles
and dila present position. The noble lord appeared to
him, however, to have spent a considerable portion of Isis
time in giving remote why the conservative party should
have consented to the seeond reeding, and then to eom-
plainte against them for having allowed it to be read. The
noble lord had stated accurately enough, though not with
perfect accuracy, the observations which he (the right hon.
mtleman) had made so long ago as 18b2. Being then a
ister of the crown be had certainly espoused his opi-
nion attar a measure of reform brought forward
by the noble lord had recently failed, that both in that
measure, as well as in the act of 1832, the claims of the
working classes bad not been considered. That was an opi-
nion which he had sot a:premed merely in 1852. It bad
always been his opinion, and in 1859, whatever differences
of opinion there might be as to the means by which he en-
deavoured to carry It into effect, there was no doubt as to
the sincerity of the attempt which he made to give, in some
mesenre, repreeentation to the working classes. (Hear,
hear.) Then the noble lord said that after the
general election he (the right hon. gentleman) had
recognised, on the part of the late government,
the verdict of the country as being in favour of some reduc-
tion of the franchise in boroughs. Those on that side of
the house did nut wish for one moment to shrink from the
admissions they had made ; but the deductions which the
noble lord had drawn from the circumstances in question

were somewhat Inconsequent. It might be necessary to
admit the principle of the bill, which they had done by
voting for the second reading ; but it was not consequent
upon the opinions which they had trxmmed. or the pledges
which, if the noble lord chose, they had given, that
they should approve of the general policy of the noble
lord. The noble lord said that all but the minciple
of the bill was • mere matter of detail ; but
the noble lord seemed to have quite forgotten that he had
assumed a line of reasoning which no minister before him
had adopted. He mane forward and introduced • trill based
irtnj.he principle of numbers ; and documents had been
in the bands of hon. members of which the noble
ord would not for one moment pretend to my that the
accuracy had been upheld. In another house, so important
had them returns been considered, that the labours of an
eminent committee had been inossmently devoted
to their examination ; and if they were to believe
rumour, the result of their lordships' investigation was in
accordance with the geueralle received opinion. (Hear
hem.) But the whole policy of the noble ion' depended
upon the fact. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord proposed to
entrust political power to • certain number of persons ; and
it was therefore tmportant that the probable number of
those to whom the franchise would be extended should be
ascertained. The noble lord could not, therefore, be sur-
prised if hoe. members who were willing to see all chases
directly represented should resell from a measure which
was perhaps founded upon • grave inaocnraoy, and which
might therefore ado& apes the country moot NAOMI
=seem Pear, hem.) The noble lord bed not m-
in say charge of immodateway
those who sat on those (the conservative) bemin•
were net monster at the workbag clamors; ea Ilsza=
the 'talky se the tory party bad never been
to them ebrom (Loud conservative cham) They led
fat=repurded the franchise • privilege% be osereistd
me
basalt al the country ; sad whoa • alms was pet!
Hag forward • shim to it they eseesived that they had
sot merely to ask whether that class might adey
the personal privilege which they sought, brit
whether It could be given them without con-
ferring on them a predominant power which would not
he fur the general advantage. (Hear, beer.) The noble
lord, then, bad not suoceeded in establiahing say fair ground
of °umpteen sgainst the parliamentary conduct of the oppm
Winn ; but if he complained that his measure bad been
folly sad severely examined, then he meat remind the noble
Led that on his own side there had been critics AY able, as
eloquent, and as aaaiduous as on the other. (Cheers and
laughter.) He could understand the tone of the noble lord
if he were about to fulfil that important programme with
which he began the session; he could understand the noble
lord if he had told them that the Lill was an essential part
of his policy, that the oblections to it were of a trifling cha-
racter, and that even if it were necemary to sit six months
without • prorogation to carry it, carry it they should.
But was that the course adopted by the noble lord to-night?
When the noble land talked of the paltry opposition which
was Riede to his measure, and of a paltry course of conduct,
the house might be interested to observe what the noble
lord • had done. Ho °meowed the session by three
measures of representative reform—the representation for
England, Ireland, and Scotland—all were to be amended,
and the representation of England was to be made the re-
presention burn which the others were to be fashioned.
The noble lord was stern and stiff as to the sew
adieus upon which these amendments in the re-
weamtation of the country were to be aceomplished.
The noble lord remembered that in opposition he gay •
programme which led to • decision—(hear, hear)—wildek
forced the country to what was probably a premature &vi-
sion—he remembered that he defined the amount ot the
franchise upon which he called for a reform of the canoti-
Wilsey. Hut *hat had the boom heard to-night Two of
the bills were to be given up, but with regard to the other
the house might do what It liked with it. That high policy
which had displaced ministers and diasevered parties had
melted away, and so long as the home would only shovel
the measure out of the way, anything it might do would be
acceptable. Well, continued the right hon. gentlernac, it
maybe very discreet, it may be very wue to-night to glee these
moderate counsels, and temperate measures, when one of
those ministers who ought to regulate the public conduct of
the Have of Commons—whom one who has just now occu-
pied such a position, and has given an oddities which is still
fresh in the remembrance of parlamentit and the reentry
when that minister declares that fair readmit is to be looked
upset se patsy. We have 'Waned, I am sue, with no
hold@ feting, to • very calm house to the statement if
the Noble lord, who has chosen well hie politics and
selected well his wools. Everyone must haws felt that the
plan which the noble loot has reocourneeded to us to-
eight °dere a neat strange and startling commit to
the mussels which ware awed upon them benches--
Palaseni—with regard to parliame•Uuy redeem in the tame

tad Wow la which these measures were brought before
ufillefilejfidifiloo‘ ilielassh But is this all? The date.
mist of tie stab Veil mast not be looked upon merely
vffiii /spate the slenint el ministers or the dream-
this house. The question is
toe divair="llrtieleetriss of this nature. After
ell eppolitilsa, and these deeply ma-
Wei isigeollio position. of a minister of
lir sewn tbe Nab Iselenessietweed to-night and
tlistwitobefaldreeindeustihmenelllbency of Fog totally
and nieseling any noonstraction of the moistitu-
rens the two Eger iZlnadoms. To my nothing lees of
It, le this a sossOWsea— course? I will not rar is it a
polio mum; bat it is • way of cutting the %Aim kw
Ida& Ids bum will, I think hardly seasliee tar admire.
phew) We have always heard that if Me qiesenon
of .peellamientary reform is to be brought forward, Ii is not
be lie liessaght forward piecemeal, but providing for the
*Me eoolrW pan }lase, and there were sound ramotitu-
Mina mem for such • course in MA whisk se one could
dinpeln bat if two of the immone me to be
bled sus to be scedinnod, what becomes of the
end Indeed be leased r sentatien?
We bele bon jays told by *air that we
cannot ladle tribb say retlebeNna to then tbis settlement
of thocZeks.ol.l4= wittiest taking their claims
into gentlemen from Ireland
and ghse.d.s.4.4. they are told that the reform of the
comitilledien et is to be finished in the month of
JIMO, sad enaideration of theirs is to be post-
te enstbee yew. What will become of those claims
iaMss kereased regmeentation of which we have heard
no mina? ( Lazy remind the home that no
bah or Scotland will be able to
meg tarot Ida my effect when the question of Eng-
ler' is pawl. Set yappers, notwithstanding the " Man-
grdr MON. of pebble affairs—a description of the pre-
sent it el t which, coming from a Secretary of
State, Emit to meM amazing to all who hear it—suppose
that tranquil date et affairs is &mead in the courier of
next year. Whit then will be the date of the Scotch and
Irish repreentstioe t (Chews.) It may be inconvenient,
it may be isummoible, to amend the representation of Scot-
land and Ireland next year. Notwithstanding the all-per-
vadingtrullity of Europe, the noble lord may find trouble+
nextyearwwkbichhwill so aborb ender:gross public attention, and
so occupy the attention of the ggovovernment, that the noble
lord who now holds the office dsxietaryforForefgnAftain
may not have time to amend the representation of Scotland
and Ireland. But what with reg rd to England? If the
English representation is amend 4 are you to have a partial
diamagnets of peatiement ? (Cheers.) Are the members for
EN! the new courtituencies to be sleeted, and
eareetenelne•the members elected by the old constituencies
of Miami sal liestiend? Or, in the conflict of our difficul-
Mee, bell yea avid tits solution by having no dissolution
vbitseerT lathe* one, we who sit here will sit as a con-
demned_ jpeellossat amiss after seasion, year after year,
=MN flair seinderma will my—' , This
man mils
the somber far Benbisgasmishire—(cheers and a
be is nothing el Sim kind." I am thankful to
stiarbulloan bear the teat as well es mod men, but I am sure
it will be embarrand to gentlemen on both sides of the
og
house. (Laughter.) Hat for what length of time is parlia-
ment to be in this uncertainty? I cannot wee with the
noble lord in those sanguine views which have been enun-
ciated by his faithful adherente—by the friends of parlia-
mentary reform—regarding the state of the country at this
moment. I have never been an alarmist. I know there
are exaggerations of danger which may lead to
depression of public feeling—just as they may, on the other
hand, increase a high patriotic tone of feeling. But li
the calmest and gravest view of public affairs, I think
am justified in saying that matters are going on which
should excite the anxiety, and engage the deep attention of
the country. (Hear, hear.) Is this a period when parlia-
ment should be left in the dislocated sate in which the
plan, I will not say the policy, of the noble lord, contem-
plates leaving it. I cannot believe that the house
um sanction this plan of dealing with the repa-
triation of England without at the same time deal
with the representation of the enter countries. I
do not believe the house will run the chance of
Leaving the representation of Ireland and Scotland to be
considered by the legislature, with the prospect of meeting
next year amidst great dangers—when it will be impossible
that the country should look up to the house with respect
or ccolldenee—en act having pared which signifies that the
representatives of the country are not competent to their
duty or not worthy of their trust. This is a grave position.
The noble lord has had more to do than to make a few
commonplace observations upon going into committee of
supply. He has bad to make some of the weightiest state-
ments that have ever been heard in thin house. That we
should reform the constitueney of England without reform-
ing.the constituencies of Ireland and Scotland is a proposal
which was never made by • minister before. (Cheers.) And
is there anything authorising so unwise and disastrous •
mune ? On the contrary, the noble lord does not contem-
plate accepting and enacting the policy which he recom-
mends. Whatever he may have mid of the working classes
he has no conviction of the necessity of the measure he has
brought forward • he has no confidence that, if carried, it
would accomplish and fulfil his purpose. He says to us,
"If you don't like this proposition, suggest something else,
and I give you to understand your proposal shall be received
by the government in a candid and disinterested spirit."
(Cheers and laughter.) What does that mean? (Cheers.) It
means that there is no policy. (Prolonged cheers.) Giving
up Ireland, giving up Scotland, coming to the members for
England and askiug them to place themselves in the
despicable position which I have described—upon any '
terms which the house can scramble together for the occa-
sion—ell this proves no conviction of the necessity of this
measure—no confidence in the
sub
of this measure.
But the noble lord upon this subject, as from the first,
exercising a fatal influence—as I said to him ate time when
I stood opposite to him as he sat on these benches—both
to this question and to his own reputation, was induced
to recommend • policy in opposition which be has
found it impossible to accomplish as a minister—but is
hazarding the safety of the country in order, not even that he
may realm his fair expectations on this subject, but that he
may terminate them in a manner which, if nothing digni-
fied, is hardly respectable, and recognise iu them an un-
wise, an immature—l will even say—a factious policy.
peers.) And then the noble lord turns rowel with much
lately
beenn usopopnizortouloubsiausuttportersi,vew.ohowlme 'dvietrabso;
means of extricating himself and his colleagues from
the painful position which he occupies. One gen-
tleman thinks it would be just as well that we
wait until in the most authoritative manner we have accu-
rate Information as to the amount of the population. Then
the noble lord thinks that his policy is compromised by his
own conduct. If the noble lord had not proposed to give
up the marrow of his bill, when be had generally confessed
that he proposed to do it—although he did not propose to
agree on any terms to the franchise, yet he laid it down
as an indispensable condition—but if the noble lord had not
Pro to do this—the statesman who comes forward
with a plan for the amendment of the representation
of the'people, and founds his measure upon population--with
what face and reason can be turn round and reproach his
supporter who says, "If this be the principle on which the
measure is to be founded, let us have the most ample, the
moat authentic, the most novel, the most recent interim.
tion." Now, sir, I make these comments upon the remake
of the noble lord. I think they are fair end just ones. M
own opinion is—yielding none of those positions which I
have formerly advanced in this house ou parliamentary
reform, and believing, as I hope I may on this subject, that
I am, notwithstanding the Quarterly Review, expressing
the opinions of those gentlemen who sit on
this side of the house—(cheep) —I am not afraid
to my I think it would be most impolitic at this moment
to attempt • inittlement; such as that projected by the
noble lord. (Cheers.) If the noble lord had the power
indeed to deal comprehensively and oompletely with the
subject--if the noble lord had said, " I have here • compre-
hensive bill for England, Ireland, and Scotland ; the prin-
cipke and conditions upon which we propose that
power should be glottal in these countries have
been long considered and deeply 'natural—by them
we mean to stand or fall"--in bringing forward
such a policy, even perhaps with impending war and im-
pending revolution, we feel that it might strengthen the
ixmirnon wealth, might iucreaie the public courage, and
animste public epirit ru England—we might think the 'mid"
lord mid his colleagues rash, we might think them ill-
advised, we might think the occasion full of danger, but all
must admit that it would at least he a policy assured turd
determined by eminent men—which they undoubtedly
and entitled, if not to adoption by the country, &tinsel to re.
spec?. But when at a moment of undisguised danger, at a
period of most certain peril, the noble lord comes forward
after all while° policy, but with a compromise which, to use
his ,own epithet, I must chanoterne as paltry—l see uo
safety in such a course-1 reongnise no security in such a
proceeding • bat I feel that at a moment when this house
should stand on high, and this country should be united, we
are recommended to try a course which may enfeeble the
one, sad my dishonour the other. (The right hon. gentle-
man sat down amid loud cheering.)
Mr. MACKINNON moved " that in order to obtain •
safe and effective reform, it would be inexpedient and un-
just to proceed further with the proposed legislative mea-
sure for the representation of the people until the house has
before It the results of the census authorised by the bill
DOW under consideration." lie had presided as chairman
over the Masters and Operatives Committee, and one of
the witnesses examined before that coniniittee was Mr.
Potter, secretary to the Builders' Union. Mr. Potter
stated, in answer to • question, that he corresponded in-
directly with 600,000 operatives, who had a cento
in d com-
mittee London. Let the house consider for a moment
the peat danger of such a combination of people having the
franchise, acting under out. head ; would they not swamp
the upper and middle classes altovther—(hear, henry.- and
might not the result be that the Mare:Aloe of the Exche-
quer should entirely take away all indirecttaxation ? (Hear,
how.) Why should the house deprive officers in the army
and navy, solicitors, and engineer, of the franchise, and
give It to these men? Less than 100 years ago
It had been said in that house that the power
of the crown had increased, was iocreasing, and
ought to be diminished. Now, lie said the power of the
crown bad decreased and oughl, to be supported. (Hear,
hear.) The Euiperir Napoleon sail to the Italians,
_" If you
don't light for your liberty, you don't deserve it ;" and he
(Mr. Mackinuoe) said to the ileum of Commons, "If you,
gentlemen of England, don't preserve your constitution,
you deserve to loos it." The hen. member coacluded by
proposiog the anierelment of which he had given notice.
Sir R. STRACEY eeeended it.
Mr G. C. LEWIS said it would not be necessary for him
to trouble the house at ally leugth in answer to the anew
?stifles of his hon. friend (Mr. Mackinnon). The most meg

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