The Express.
London, England, 1860-06-08 00:00:00

J

Xr. BRIGHT said that there couldbeveay little doubt ed.
the object of this motion—namely, to get rid of lb. Mac-
Idenen's amendment, which, se • piety, they ocedd net
support, on the ground of its being not only Wee, bat ridi-
culous. The question was whether the house warn willing
this year to grant any measure of reihtw
required an answer. He contimied that Mr. li had
not only pledged himself to • large exteselna of the fran-
chise, wild& should include the working thaw,',.rot to a
101. treashies in the counties, and Sine the b; and
he regreilbed that he had been Mien by his OWell
from so The • resolve. Five times the Queen 1,4 asked
parliament to settle this question ; and five tabus& bad
been unanimaut in opinion that it should be penal, and
yet gentlemen opposite refused to accept even this moderate
fie. Without waiting fee the census, it w known
that the population would amount to 30 millions, and there
wbuld be of them six willow of men by whom the fran-
chise was not enjoyed. This bill sought to admit • few of •
them, and it couN not be mid that the measure wee in say
sense dangerous to the constitution, for would the admir
eke of we in twenty of these men be hassilag over the
government of this country to poverty and ream ? He
very emphatically defended the working eLases against the
acensetions which had been made against them by Mr.
Dimon and • writer in the Quarterly Reriew, and
preduced statistical information showing the capability
of that elms for elevating and improving them-
' salon and their condition, and the cultivation of
tragal and provident habits. He would go into no
more facts, because those statements would carry conviction
to every impartial mind that it was not wise or
Just to indulge in such language as they had
Award during late debates with rapid to the character
and the condition of the unenfranchised classes in the king-
dom. (Hear, hear.) If these charges were true, what could
' they prove but an utter condemnation of the whole system
of the governments of pest times, and if they were not true
' then they were pursuing an unwise and dangerous coarse in
making them. What was the object of heegentlemen
opposite in the persistent delays with which they Met that
proposition? He was told—of amine hoe. gentlemen
would very likely oontrsdict it—that they wanted to belle
and damage the government, so that by and by they would
be able to move to that side of the house—(War, hear)—
and the right hon. gentlemen on the opposite benches
would come and sit on the Treasury benches. He had no
doubt whatever that there was considerable anxiety on this
more. He had observed d when the gentlemen who now
sat on the Treasury bench sat on the opposite aide. (Hear.)
They were very anxious to get there, and sometimes took
maw which he thought unworthy of a great party to dis-
lodge their opponents and take their place. (Helx) He
was happy to say he never co-operated with theta in any of
theseattempta. (Oh, oh.) Hon. gentlemen opposite wesid
recollect that during last year, whoa they were on the
ministerial aide of the house, they were continually taunted
with being kept in office by his right hea. friend the imsmber
for Addeo and himself. (" Hear;' sad "Oh, oh.") It WWI
mid of them and of his right boa. hired and himself what
seem reemliers opposite had said—hie weasorry to say foolishly
--ef Vie gassent government widths= wevilbut heccould make
• great deal of allowance, bemuse cm presienied trim the
anxiety which every man evinced to get ca
was tlibLerern-
meet bench that there some ha in
sitting them. (Laughter.) But supposing they messed
in getting there? He would mourns that the noble lord
withdrew his bill, which was not very likely—(lagghter)
—that they damaged the government, and t they
could not go on any longer, and ware broken up, as many
other governments before hail been broken up, that Lord
Derby came beck to power, and that they were all where
they were a year ado. What then ? Would that reform (Nes.
Wu be settled ? Was the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Disraeli) prepared to carry out the state-
ments which he had made—not private statements,
but etatemente made in public and which he
bad not repudiated, wed probably never would repudiate ?
The right ben. gentleman expressed his swat. He did not
intend te regadate those sentiments, and therefore he pro-
if he came back to power, to add 500,001.) electors to
the existing number, admore than that, bemuse after the
election he found he must do more than merely open
the general
to the working claims, and he would admit them,
as he said, with sincerity and generosity. Hon. gentlemen
opposite did not calculate upon that. They thought, as he
understood, that 6,000,000 would remain out if they got rid
of the bill. The door would be locked and barred, and for
a long time to come—nobody knew how long—the question
would not reappear, and they would go on in the
old humdrum fashion without regent to the wishes of
that vast multitude who had so often during the last
thirty years asked them in the moat humble and defe-
rential toner to be admitted to some portion of the power
of that house. (Hear, hear.) If the bill were refused the
people of this country who were most affected by its
provisions would say that they had been treated
with distrust, and that some hon. members had used
language towards them as if they had acted in • manner to
be condemned and deplored rather than applauded. The
right hoe. baronet the member for Herta, in • work he
pttbhshed some years ego said, " Who knows the great-
ness of the generosity of the people of Reeked?" and he
did what he (Mr. Bright) would not do, exclude from that
the nobility who were the government of the onantry.
bifs(slefr. Bright) said the people were generous, and that on
their industry was based the wealth and greatness of the
I:=./asses. He was not lees the friend of the upper
than of the working classes, when he imploted them
with all the power he could put into words to pass this bill,
and to treat their countrymen with generosity and with jus-
tice. (Loudelmers.)
Sir H. CAIRNS observed that tis.sqch of Mr. Bright,
ro apppriate enough to the third of the bill, hail
never once approached the question a issue, which well
deserved the attention of the house. U the government
thought proper to adopt the course of introducing •
measure to amend the representation in the shape of three
separate bile, they might dispose of them all in one amnion,
or defer the whole to another; but the hills were se con-
neetod together that they could not be severed without
creating serious difficulties and embamunmenta. If the
house went into committee upon the English bill,
they. should be sure that they had materials for dim-
cusauig its details. The amount et which the borough
franchise had been fixed depended upon the accuracy of the
data assumed by the government ; but he stated grounds
upon which he charged their returns with being entirely
delusive. Unless the datementa he had made could be
shown to be inaccurate, the house, he said, should
beware of being driven into rash and precipitate
legislation which depended upon questionable data. In the
meanwhile bills of extreme Importance, measures of law
reform, were postponed from day to day and week to week
to make way for this unfortunate production of Lent John
Russell. He appealed to the house to rescue itself from its
embarrassing position, and to the government at ease to
withdraw the bill.

Lord PALMEBB'TON °hearted that it H. Oakes had
fallen into the error which ho had imputed to Mr. Bright;
his speech belonged to the committee. The tardy prowess
of this bill was occasioned by the delays iacemantly inter- '
posed to obstruct it by those who dared not oppose the
measure openly. Did the house mean to pass a reform bill
or not ? The principle of this bill had been assented to, or ,
why was it not opposed on thesecoud reading! The chime
lions now offered to the bill went to the details, to timidness
in which the fundamental principle was to be carried out.
The whole of the discussions which had taken place on the
bill hail been for the purpose of delay, and they had now
arrived at the climax of the proceeding. He replied to the
arguments founded upon the difficulties anticipated by
Mir H. Oahu. from the ponponemeet of the Irish and
Scotch bills to another session, and professed hie readiness
to wander in the committee the objections to details, not re.
t to the principle of the bill. The noble lord tioutialied
ruirtrrt that the house will consider on both sides the mo-
tion in which it stands. Is the house prepared to affirm
that there shall be no reform in the representation of the
people? I will not ask gentlemen on this side, to of
each a principle, bemuse I know they would refuse. (Loud
cheers) But will gentlemen on the other side after what
happened when their lenders were in office, de•
Clare that there shall be 'no change? I mise-
sible. (Loud cheers.) Well, H that be impossible,
on what grounds can you refuse to allow the house to go
into committee on the bill! (Hem.) I say that the facts
and argument. which occurred when their leaders were la
office compel them is consistency to go into committee ; and
it is only in committee they oan establish the objections they '
have made to the details of the bill. We have told them
we are reedy to consider these details, and that if
their objections be not inconsistent with the principle
of the measure they shall receive our best con-
sideration ; but there are principles fundamental to
the bill, to the alteration of which we cannot consent., because
such alteration must lead to the entire destructioo of the
measure. One main principle of the bill is the reduction of
the borough franchise ; if they were prepared to reset that
reduction, let them prepare a hostile retolutioo. (Hear,
hear.) Why do they not say, " We won't go into committee,
and adhere to the principle of Lord Derby's bill?" Let them
move to that effect ; that would be a fair, manly, and intel-
ligible course, but they do not, they cannot, because the right
hon. gentleman the member for Backs, and others who stand
high in the party have pledged themselves to a reduction
of the borough franchise. Indeed, two members of the
late government went so far as to resign oMce because they
wished for a reduction of the borough franchise, and there.
fore if they cannot, if they are not prepared to throw out
the bill on principle, then I say they are taking a part un-
worthy of a great political party in endeavouring by
delay to prevent the house going into committee
on a bill the importance of which they have ad-
milted, the expedieney of which they have recognised, the
principle of which they no longer contest, and the details
of which are their only subject of objection. (Hear, bear.)
I say, then, that on every principle which should guide
statemen and the member of a greet political party, they
are Wend to go into the 000sidotstion of the bill in corn.
mines, and there to offer the objections which they sin-
eerely entertain. Is the tone of year such as to make such
a course impossible t No doubt it might have been earlier if
that fair and manly course bad bean taken which 1 think
would have been becoming in a Mai political party. I say
that the manly course would have been to say either that
they &muted to the bill in principle, or that they objected
to tile details as likely to introduce too much of the demo-
cratic shiniest into the constituencies, but that those were
questione far the committee. They would have thus effected
their legitimate object, whilst they would not have ob-
structed those meseuree of importance, some of which I
teen we shall carry this session in spite of these unseemly
daleys. (Cheers.) I do trust that the house will, by reject-
his this motion for adjournmeut made at four o'clock to
premed discussion, show that they are determined to go on
with the bill, Mal that they will nut, from any unfounded
appmesouosa of two dianolutheas, or of a premature die

=intim, or by_ nay Limner aiewideastions, be diverted
tram thoosEt path of public duty, but before they imit-
ate dime by their. tete one way or the other
what is opinion of the House of Commons so to the
pined* of the bal. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. DIARIVILI-v.flir LoongraMiLate the noble lord on
the lint speech which 'le ham made on the Reform Bill.
(Lend opposition ohms) And, sir, IDa mot surprised at
the remarkable 'errors which have crept 'into the noble
Iced's statement-becanair I feel that he has hitherto

lies )ham interest in the bill than might have
itileffeaaated from a minister po responsible for the
cm of the measure. It is ashy bemuse the noble
"lord bas not before to-night taken pat in or debates that
las at all account for his total misapprehension of the
beam of the house for the last three months. What is
the esesplaint of the noble lord ? He does not deny that our
busimes has been conducted in• meet unsatisfactory manner.
The noble lord does not deny that here we are advanced
to the 7th of June, and have not yet arrived at the com-
mittee. The noble lord seems astonished at the position
in which his government is placed with respect to this
measure; and then,with great precipitation and rashness, he
falls to scolding the house, and talks of the delay, the uncon-
stitutional and irrational delay that has been experienced ;
end through not being sufficiently acquainted with the con-
duct of this nuneure, he thinks of course that the delay
boo been oecessioned entirely by the opposition. (Cheers.)
Why it was only on Monday last that the government pro-
penult° go into committee; and now the noble lord w-
omb foe the little progress the measure has made by
the vexations delays of which he complains, though it is
the mooed, of the house that the government them-
selves, having had ail the days usually appropriated to in-
Vwamembem entirely at their service, only last
peepeseri to go into coninuttee on the bill
ee thaaanduct of the house before the appointment
wpm mode ? Did the opposition avail themselves of all the
forms of the hutute to oppose the progress of the measure !
Pass the noble had complain that the second reading was
tat opposed! Is theta signof faction? Is that a aka of
delay. (Hear, hear.) • Does the noble lord complain
that upon the principal rof the measure, ad-
=, baileys, the principle of the bill, the house
h se
ave them that constitutional and solemn occasion
to Mono v110_• might be the application of those pried-
else Was • GAM* olive days so unreasonably lesef—was
that opa* elf time se turesnal on such a subject, this the
sato b *Mod la ton* round upon the house, bo-
soms the bailouts et the country has been carried cm in
this unsatisfactory manner, end accusing them of delay, be-
muse • discussion of five or six days took place upon the
second reading? But who are responsible for the length of
that discussion! Is it the opposition only? (Hear.
hear.) It was correctly stated that the mai°-
, rity in number, and I believe in length, of the
spleChal, were made by the sepporters of the noble lord.
(Heir, hear.) . But now he turns round to us, and says,
" There is only one question to ask—ere you in favour of
Abe Reform Rill or not r' If the noble lord wants infer-
(station on that subject, I recommend hum to apply that
Inquiry to the hon. member for the city of Edinburgh, who
elle in the immediate vicinity of, and in close political con-
%pity and sympathy with the noble lord. Or let him
inquire of the hon. member for Bristol, whether he is
is favour of the government Reform Bill. (Hear, heir.)
Or I should recommend the noble lord to address his in-
quiry to a graver mind—that of an hon. gentleman who
must share his eontdence—the member for Salford ; let
the noble hod uk him whether he is in favour of Tarifa-
, mentery reform. The noble lord might address this ques-
tion to a great many other gentlemen on his own side.
(Hear, hear.) The speeches made against the government
souraro have been more eloquent and conspicuous on
the eovernmmt side of the home than on ours. We
have taken more general views—(hear, hear)--and stated
some large constitutional objections to the course adopted
by the noble lord and his colleagues, but for minute criticism,
vailaut captiousness, or a degree of devotion to the details
of the measure, which appeared to be prompted almost by
• sentiment of personal panic—(a laugh)—l should say
that the great liberal party was more distinguished than the
rutlemen on this side if the house. (Hear, hear.)
Yarlimient met early, at an unusual _ period. Far
a whole fortnight nothing was done. Why nes not
the Reform Bill introduced! When the second reeding took
place the duration of the debate was not unusual ; it was
only becoming the importance of the measure. The greater
portion of that debate, and the portion most opposite to
the merits of the measure, came from the benches opposite,
Irons the habitual supporters of the ministry. When that
debate was closed the government did not propose to go
into committee until Monday, the 4th of June. (Hear,
hear.) I ask the house and the country, under them cir-
enmstanoes and in this state of affairs, is the minister fits-
' esea in the assertion he has made this evening end in the
tone he has adopted ? (Hear, hear.) But is this all
, Look at the records of the house and examine there who are
the authors of the amendments to the motion that the
erstaker do leave the chair. (Opposition cheering.) Where
do they sit—(renewed cheering)—and who are they who
have suggested means by which the measure might be ar-
rested and ultimately defeated. (Cheers.) I used not return
again to the hon. gentleman who gave imam of •
motion for referring the Reform Bill to a select
committee, the notion of which very much flattered the
noble lord the member for the City. Vasa is the state of
the house at the present moment? It is true that as
amendment has been proposed to the motion that the
Speaker leave the chair, but who makes it? Is it a con-
servative member, one of those who are to be made the
responsible authors of these delays? The honourable
gentleman who brought the subject forward this evening
I believe generally sits behind the noble lord, and avowed
when he made the amendment that he did it out of habitual
devotion of may years to that distinguished statesman.
(Cheses.) Is it to be endured that under such circum-
stances the noble lord, in total ignorance, I believe, of what
his been going on in the house, should now charge us with
obstructing the bill? (Cheers.) His conduct can only he
amounted for by those rosy slumbers into which be always
Adis when reform is mentioned. Suddenly awakened from his
dram, the noble lord exclaims, " Cod bless me ! is this the
lib of June and the Maim Bil not in committee? I'll go
to Mr. Bright and I'll make a groat declaistion”—(loud
laughter)—tad then the noble 100 l mines forward and talks
el the factious and unconstitutional delays of the Tory
party—(cheering) —while all the time his own friends are
the parties removable for this conduct—(heer, hear)—and
it to not until the 7th of June that the noble
lord has oondeecended to uy • word— I will
not say in favour of the Reform Bill, but about the Reform
Bill. (Loud -Won cheers.) But let -- that we have

opposition cheers.) use's what we have
Ibsen doing this evening. The noble lord was equally in
serer se to what ceased this evening. He was ant present
at half-pest four o'clock, and I dare say he was in a gayer
and more brilliant scene —(laughter and cheers)—but I should
advise him to adhere to the salutary rule he has
so long followed, and not venture again to speak
either on the Reform Mil or on the proceedings of
this house with regard to it. The noble lord has entirely
misunderskaal the motion of the hon. gentleman who, in
a speech of great spirit and intelligence, introduced the
subject before us to-night. (Hear, hear.) Let me say one
word, however, on what the noble lord has treated at some
length, namely, his plea that there ought not to have been
any criticism of any kind epee this important measure
because the noble lord says we are all agreed upon
the principle. It is difficult to know what the noble
lord means by saying we are agreed to the principle.
The right bon. gentleman proceeded to say that the great
'liberal party, when in oppusitieu, had reorganised them-
Salves by promises of reform, by means of which they bad
got Into data, and when in office nothing wee dune. This
game went on for a lung time, until three prime ministers
in succession had recommended her Majesty to take into
consideration the reform of the repreeeatatiou. The late go-
'ferment were of opinion that it would be for the public ad-
vantage, after all that bad occurred, to bring in a measure,
Into the merits and demerits of that measure lie would net
eater ; but he would tell the noble lord, as be had oom-
inenced this controversy, that they hail brought forward the
measure of List session because they believed it to be a coo-
servative 1110nCIrt., and they objected to the measure of the
noble lord because they believed it was not a conservative
ineaotre. (('heers.) The noble lord in his speech had
hardly addressed a single remark to the question at
issue. The noble lord must have supposed the home
was discussing the amendment of one of his own supporters.
The noble lord could not suppcee after the announcement
that the bills for Scotland and &laud had been dropped.
that the house would not pause and ask what would be the
effect of such a constitutional change. The noble lord
proposed that the house should this year amend the repro-
sentatioo of the people. He told the house now very
differently from what had been said by his eel.
leagues. What was the security that next year
the representation of Ireland and Scotland would be
completed ? But supposing these groat events achieved, the
noble lord would admit that, thanks to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the house would have text year to consider
the great question of the taxation of the country, not only
under circumstances of suspicion, alarm, and even danger,
but in • moribund and condemned parliament. (Cheers.)
He said the tory party would have been unworthy
of their position if they had not taken that oppor-
timity of expressing their condemnation of such a course.
The noble lord at the head of the government, who had
jant favoured them with hie virgin speech upon the Lill,
had given no satisfactory reply to the motion. (Hear,
hear.) He had left a painful impression on the house that
he haul taken up the subject rather from party necessity
than from political conviction. (Hear, hear) But as the
noble lord had challenged them to a division, he met him on
tie grounds he (Mr. Disraeli) had stated, and he looked to
the result of that division without apprehension. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the question was whether the
objections urged to proceeding with the bill were reel and
substantial, or merely a pretext for getting rid of it. It was
clear that if they proceeded with the Scotch and Irish bills
first there would be no time left to consider the bill for
England ; and be, therefore, contended that the iinly prac-
tical course to pursue was to take the English bill first,
and leave the others to be dealt with in the next
dweasmnae(clzpted.mi, radtth
session. (Hear, hear.) It was said that if that course
hut the government never said that parliament, under
such ciroumstances, would not be perfectly capable of lees-
toe bidniscP"us4sedtbePaScrittnizhent'andw"lrihishbeb(dilse.;
Whin. In 1&12 there were 150 members who did not re-
present the people ; and after the Reform Bill was passed
in that year the House of Commons was condemned. But
the present bill enlarged and stosegthened the re.
presentation, and did not imply any outidenuation
of the House of Commons. (Hear, bear.) if it
psalmsd. there was no mama why it should not sit
for another session and pass the ut her bill,. If hon. mem.
hers eousiderwl the Mil a revelatiouary monsure which

would destroy the constitution of the country, let them
oppose it manfully on that ground but if they did not NAy
that, and did not object to the admission of the working
classes, their only course was to go into committee, where
they could decide upon the extent of Out admission.
(Bear, hear.) But the party opposite would take neither
course, nor would they slake a Mink and open decimation
on the subject ; but they sought by a pretext to delay awl
obstruct the bill. (Cheers.)
The house divided

For the adjournment of the debate 248
Against it
This result wee received with some cheering on the part
of the oppwation.
Mr. 23 COCHRANE moved the adjournment of the
house.

Ths home again divided—
No Ayes
2*;7-45
The SPEAKER having then read Mr. Mackinnon's motion,
bate.(...l.ptain GORDON moved adjournment of the ii.

Viscount PALMERSTON said that the government wcro
satisfied with the division which had already taken pla
and which had sufficiently evinced the sense of the h0u,,..
(Cheers, and counter cheers.) He would, therefore, cur,
sent to the adjournment of the debate till Monday.
The debate wm accordingly postponed.
THE IRISH REFORM BILL.
Mr. CA.RDWELL having moved that the order for th.:
second tending be discharged,
Mr. • ILMN EN: Y mid he should oppose the motion.
Colonel FRENCH hoped that the next Irish bill would
be of a more satisfactory character.
The O'DONOGHUE moved the adjournment of ti,,
debate.
After *OM observations from Mr. I'. O'BRIEN,
Mr. ESTCOURT advised the bon. gentlemen, not to prem
his amendment, which *as negatived without a division.
The order for the second reading of the bill Waal dam
discharged.
THE SCOTCH REFORM BILL.
The LORD ADVOUTR moved that the order for th,
second
Barre, and
reading be discharged which was seconded by Mr.
C.
TENURE OF tAND (IRELAND) BILL.
The second reading of this bill was adjourned to this
(Friday) evening.
Thu other orders of the day having been disposed of,
the house ruse at twenty minutes past two.