The Express.
London, England, 1860-08-17 00:00:00

(Stamped, ld. Additional.)

the depositions of the inquest • it was his duty to do so ;
and no judge was more devoted to his duty than Sir A.
Cockburn - and he knew mach better what questions on&
to have been put to witnesses than the noble earl did. Re
thought after there had been a fair trial, and an honourable
acquittal, these papers ought not to be produced, as the pro-
duction of them ungist lead to an impression is sane quar-
ters that the verdict was an improper one, and that the man
ought to have been found guilty.
In reply to as obsorfttioe from Earl Gemmel.;
The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was quite clew that
their lordship; had no authority to order that the judgesnotes,
which were for his private guidance, should be Inid before
the Meow

The nodes wee ehes put and negatived.
The Fortifications Bill, the Stamp Dirties Bill (No. 2), the
Customs Duties Bilk 4No. 2), and the Defence of the Realm
Bill, were respectively read a first time.
The Douse adjourned at a quarter past six o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—THURSDAY, Analyst 16.

(Continued from yesterday's Exprest.).
Mr. H. SEYMOUR called attention to the payments
for photography of 2,000 f. and 9001. at the British Museum
and South Kensington Museum. The vacillation which the
tight hon. gentleman spoke of was entirely the fault of the
government.. Buda proper plan been brought before the
house, the matter would long ago have been settled.
Mr. WALPOLE gave some explanation of the charges
for photogrephio appeases.
Mr. B renewed the subject of the salaries,and quoted
the opinion of Mt Paulen as to the arduous nature of the
duties perfarrad* the officers.
Mr. WAL...teirtitat• thastruntaiss had been re-
vised three Teen ago ; maim of them were noised ; and no
mmoodoiat was then made of the amount fixed. It would
ill batons any one unw to re-open the question. Bincethe
revision superannuation allowances had been given, the
vacancies had been increased, and an examination had been
established far officers *1 the Museum. He gave no opinion
as to whether the salaries should be further raised ; but an
increase ought not to he advocated without a knowledge of
all the circumstances and a due regard to the public re-
venue. It was meet objectionable that applications of this
notate should be brought forward in conversations in the
house, and not as a regular motion.
Mr. E. JA.Mt. said that many of the evils pointed out
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the management of
my piblie institutions arose from the appointment of the
rot Commis.ioner of Works being treated as a sort of

futility appanage, or piece of patron;ge, by the government.
M ear, bear.) A man of independence and strong will
weglit to be placed at the head of the department, and all
those evils would then disar.
Mr. CONINGHAM sake should be glad to see the
vete fee the National Oallery reduced.
Mr. WCANN said that these votes had doubled in
amount canoe he bad been a member of the house. There
WM always some one to get up and steppes an Merano of
ealwry.
Mr. PEACOCKE defended the Minister of Public Work,
from the attack of Mr. K denies, and referred to those who
had formerly held the oMne.

TieCILILNCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. did not un-
de:stand that any attack was made on the right hon. gen-
tleman who now filled the office. Nothing conk' be more
usionst than to attribute the generally inefficient manage-
ment of our public institutions to that minister. (Hear.)
AYRTON imagined that the past and present mi-
shears of public works were subject to so many irartu-
akin and indueaces that they bad no power or will o their
own. The department was too much subjected to others.
He hoped that the government would place it on a more
independent footing, and invest it with real responsibility.
lir. & JAMES disoLumed any attack on the present
holder of the office. _ _

Sir O: C. LEWIS stated that the appointment of the
officers of the British Museum did not rest with the govern-
ment, but with the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord
Chancellor, and the Speaker of the thrum of Commons for
the time being.
The vote was then agreed to.
CIVIL 123TAELISH3f &NTS AND EXPENSES ABROAD.
Several votes were agreed to.
The house adjourned at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.

Mr. JANCEl3ga;;;;tiWci.th; sit;nrdnecti passion move
for leave to bring in a bill to abolish imprisonment for debt
where it appeared to have been contracted without an M-
istake of

INCOME TAX.

Mr, HUBBARD gave itOticetfiaTiTe should next session
call the attention of the house to the subject of the direct
taxation of the country, with a view to a modification of
the income tax.

SUPPLY.

The report of votes in supply was brought up and re-
ceived.

RECRUITING FOR THE ARMY.

In reply to Colout' DUNNE,
Mr. S. NERREAT said that the repsetof the commis-
sioners on recruiting for the army would be laid on the table
of the house, if possible, before the end of the present
session of parliament, but if not, early next session.
RECRUITING FOR GARIBALDL

Mr. BElitillSl3l, iiiniali;gr;ttenTioiTliTthis subject, I
said that the government had declared their opinion with I
regard to enlistment for foreign service in a despatch which I
the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) addressed ou the ith of '
December last to Lord A. Loftua. In that despatch the I
noble lord desired Lord A. Loftus to ask these I
questions of the Austrian government—whether the Austrian
government were cognisant of the fact that enlistment !
was going on in the Austrian dominions for the Papal and I
Neapolitan armies ; whether the Austrian government
considered such a proceeding to be lmal or illegal ; and !
whether the Austrian government had given their consent I
to such enlistment. He (Mr. Hennessy) now ventured to '
pat a similar question to her Majesty's government. Within
the teat few days • letter appeared in the newspapers from 1
of agwttecsitan a
was llele-camp Ge
ung mneral Garibaldi, the
en and spec y
volunteers, as well as soldiers who might wish to '
laurels, to take up arms in the cause of Italian in- 1
ce. That letter contained a notification from '
General Garibaldi himself, dated from the now 1
famous Helene, to this effect : " Captain Ed-
ward Styles goes to England with my authority.
His object is to render advice sad guidance to those who 1
may wish to oonie here to light for the liberties of this
country."_ He did not wish to my • word how far Captain '
Styles had violated the law, or bow far these men who
were associated with him bad violated the law. That was
a question more properly for the law officers of the crown.
He would only say that the act of 59th Geo. IEI,
the sot bearing on this question, was one which
he Mould at any time ask to have enforced.
lie would remind the house that in the month of May last
the Attorney-General stated distinctly that any person in
this country who enlisted in the service of • sovereign who
was at amity with the Queen was guilty of • breach of the
common law of England. He was anxious to know from
the government whether they were aware that such enlist.
ment was now going on ; also, whether they had given their
consent to such enlistment, and what was their opinion as
to the great question of international law. He admitted
that General Garibaldi had exhibited qualities of bereaves
and valour which entitled him to respect ; but they knew
that at this moment the whole foreign affairs of Europe
were complicated by his movements, sad that the two peat
powers, Austria and Prussia, were determined to act in eon-
certyainat what he (Mr. Hennessy) conceived to be an
Sax r Y said before the noble lord answered the
ill
14=
quakes of the bon. member he wished to remark that the
gentleman never said a word when velveteen were
going from Ireland to join the papal army, which was •
case just as applicahle as the one he had brought forward.
All he could my was—which he said from the bottom of his
heart -that the gallant fellows who were now going
out to Ruppert Garibaldi would be better treated than
those Irishmen who had gone out to support the Pope.
Lord PALMERSTON—In answer to the question of the
hon. gentleman, I have to my that her Majesty's gonna-
tueut have no knowledge of any enlisting goiog on In this
country fur the service of General Garibaldi nor are any
persons who are tindentood to be in her Majesty's serves
engaged in enlistment. As to any soldiers enlisting to
serve with General Garibaldi, that would be an act of
desertion, punishable by the military law of the country.
The hon. member has put a can upon one or two
pounds ; first as bearing upon the provision of
the Foreign Enlistment Act. Now as was stated
by the honourable baronet (Sir J. Shelley), any
persons going to Sicily to join General Garibaldi, are
precisely in the same position as those Irishmen who went
to serve the Papal government. The hon. gentleman
knows the difficulties of enforcing that act. It would be
neoeseary to prove that the enlistment took place in this
country. The possibility of obtaining any evidence to that
effect was avoided by those who went to Rome by their de-
claring that they went for the purpose of being employed on
railway works, whereas unfortunately no railway works
were being canted on. The honourable member
has put it cm another ground, that, namely, of
international law. The house will recollect that
my hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General has
shown that there is a difficulty in bringing the principle of
international law to bear upon any particular act. All I
can say is, that we know nothing of say enlistment going
on in this country, and if we knew of any enlistment for
any foreign state, or assumption of a state, we should
feel it our duty to put the proviaions of that act in
force, and in doing that we should thereby thosebri:/l
the per-
sons within 'steeliest provisions of the act. Hear.)
Mr. KINNAIRD viand to know if any o ' infor-
mation had been received by the government of the landing
of Garibaldi on the shores of Calabria.
t Lord PALMERSTON—Nothing beyond the telegraphic
" ports.
Mr. SCULLY did not object to gentlemen going up to the
Pope or to General Garibaldi. He thought what was mace
1 for the Irish goose should be sauce for the End gander.
He hoped with the hon. member fur Westminster Mir

LT WOPEN CE.

J. fieetley) tint thew who went out to General Gari-
baldi would be mash bettor treated than those who went to
Rome. With regard to the remarks of the noble lord (Lord
Palmerston) all he would say was that he deprecated any
hrtormeddling of this country in foreign attain. Rot the noble
lord must either kaow aothiog all of what was going on
in this country with reopen to Garibaldi, or he must wil-
fully shut hie eyes to it. He (Mr. Scully) saw advertised in
the newspapon of flattuday last a long list of subscriptions
of money to bairn to Garibaldi, and in that list the first
WOO was Vim:nodes, Palmerston—(a laugh)—the second
was the Counter of Shatesnery, and the third was Mn,.
Oisertoua (Laughter.)
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) GRANT.
_ . . .

Mr. CARDWELL in rising to move fors v/1464270,0001.
for tie united adienal edecational system of Ireland, said
the vete showed an increase of about 21,0001. over the vote
of the molding year. end without going too much into de-
tail he night say that 17,000/. of that BIM was to provide
improved provisions for local teachers in Ireland. The hon.
member for Duaganan last session called attention to the
scale of remenemation of schoolmasters mid schoolmistresses
in Ireland, and the government undertook to consider the
position, and to consider whether it was right to call upon
the public treasury for any increased remuneratieo for those
persons, and • sac of 7,0001. was included in the esti-
mated for that pupae, together with
.3,100 L, which,
in addition to a small wantin the estimate. of last
year,. it was intended to devote to good service
pensions to those roasters lind mistresses who bed served foe
a meek' time, and complied with certain other remilatioso
is detail which the hoard had established. The whale sum
for that purpose would be found to amount to 10,500/. He
• halleedd as& Slan who, Mill pore of the value of the
eduction now gene in Imbued must acknowledge that the
vote he was sow about to salt for would give a better return
they say other vote which he could ask from the committee.
The right hon. gentleman entered into details showing iite
results of the national system ; that it had compleift
taken root in the country ; that it was not coufined to a
particular pinion, but that ire benefits were in proportion
to the requirements of the country ; that all religious dew-
mil:ultimo participated in them ; and that in propertien as!
the population was mixed, so was the number of mixed
schools. He alluded to the efforts made to obtain $ deem.
minational system of education, and to the reasons which
had induced and would continue tedattellee the government
firmly to resist the propoesL He discumed at much
length the objection that the original letter of Lord
Stanley (the Earl of Derby) and the cardinal principle
of the system cm the subject of combined instruction had
hew departed from, and contended that the fundamental
principlea of the system had been adhered to from the be.
ginning to the present time, certain rules which bad been
adopted being only ancillary to those purposes. No case
Of proselytism, be obeerved, had ever been complained of
Is the schools ; all supposed proselytising tendencies were
diminishing and disappearing ; meanwhile the system bad
sat had the effect of making the people of Ireland indif-
ferent to religion, there never having been a time when
mini&a, both among Roman ea:holiesi and protas-
is/In lowed with so bright • game in Ireland- He
adverted briefly, in oeoclusion, to • few other subjects,
inadimg the constitution of the board, the vesting of
Mille* the revision of hooka, and • better provision
foe separate religioue teaching.
Mr. MAGUIRE, who had given notice of his intention
to call attention to the correspoudence between the
Roman catholic archbishops and bishops of Ireland and
her Majesty's government, on the subject of substituting
• separate or denorninatiotud system of education for the
existing system, wooed the board of maladministration,
and even of fraud, and contended that the system bad
been radically altered and modified, to the prejudice of
Raman, catholic internal, complaining of the books intro-
duced into the schools. He read much evidence in support
of his positions, and in prod et the anti-catholic spirit of
the board. He disputed the claim put forward in favour of
the mixed system of atacatios, which, h. insisted, was a
failure and a liana. There was a call for • separate or de-
nominational system of education in England, sad was
there, he asked, sash a radical difference between the two
countries that wadi a system was unfit for Ireland? He
showed what was the working of the denominational sys-
tem in England, and desired, he said, to KM the smuts
system applied to Ireland.
Mr. DEASY replied with some warmth to the charges
brought by Mr. Mag: uire against the commissioners, and
read the rules they laid down for instruction in mixed
'schools, contending that they had never in practice de-
viated from them. Referring to the memorial of the
Roman catholic prelates of Ireland, he maintained that
they claimed nothing less than the entire and
exclusive control and direction of the education of the=
and he asked whether the public or the house would .
to such • demand, which was not admitted in Roman
catholic countries. No government would ever sonde to it,
and parliament could not do so without parting with
its legitimate authority. As a catholic, he differed
from the views of those who desired the sepentetextem
contemplated by the catholic prelates. He ob to a
separate system of education on the part of the Roman
catholic people of Ireland. In the first place be did act
believe they would obtain the sanction of parliament to a
separate system. (Hear, bear.) Let them remember that
• majority of the people of England, and a majority of the
members of that house, were opposed to the religious views
and principles on which those saools would be conducted.
He did not believe it would be possible to obtain votes of
public money for three yearn continuously for schools so con-
ducted. Be, of course, as • Roman catholic might deprecate
the existence of any such feeling' ; but there could be no
doubt that they existed. In the next place, they pleat give
up a great number of the existing schools. The sites of
hundreds of these schools were given by free
on the condition that the schools were to be free to per-
sons of all denominations. He knew that such a oonditiot

was expressed in many of the leases, and if non violated the
condition by making the schools separate, would not the
Courtof Chancery interfere? (Hear, hear.) You must
therefore give up these schools. (Hear, hear.) In Ulater,
where the property was chiefly in the bade of proteshinta,
where were they to get sites for schools if founded on the
separate system? (Hear, hem.) Again, they wanted to
stop proselytism in Ireland. Well, the present
system might not give all the safnmirds that you required
against proselytism, but it afforded some protection against
that evil. Abolish the present system, and you would have
protestant schools founded in various parts of Ireland which
would be in receipt of state aid, and which would direct all
their efforts to proselytise. (Hear.) But what would be the
effect of the separate system on the protestants of Ireland!
There were 15,000 protestant children attending 1,900
Boman catholic cahoots, which was • proof that those
schools were conducted fairly. But in what position would
these children be placed if they established the denomint-
tonal system? They would be excluded, and new schools
would have to be built for them. But who would suppose
that the government would osnsent to that? There would
have to be separate schools for the Roman catholics, for the
children of parents belonging to the state church, and for
the presbyterians, and the vote of 274,0001. would have to
be doubled, if not trebled. In leas they all supported
the present system. In what respect had it been
changed since? They said it led to proselytism,
but where was the proof? The system had been
in operation thirty years. Bat were the people
of Ireland less catholic in 1990 than they were in 1830?
The protestant. in Ireland were against this change ; the
Boman catholic laity were in favour of it. He spoke autho-
ritatively. The members of the Boman catholic clergy of
the second order were satisfied with the present system. It
came before the house In the manner least alculated to
procum respect, because it came as the authoritative de-
mend of a synod. Now there was no feeling more strong
in the parliament and people of this country then their op-
position to ecclesiastical authority. (Cheers.) He was not
discusasing the question as to whether that was right or
wrong, but he was stating what was the feet. They
had shown it at all periods of their history,
and at no period was that feeling stronger than
at prevent. The present system had solved the diffi-
cult problem of obtaining from the protestant parliament and
people of Great Britain • larger amount of money for the
education of the Boman catholic children of Ireland, and he
asked them not to part with the present 'yam till they
were method that the House of Commons would support
that whirls they proposed. Allusion had beeu made to the
next election, and it was true that they could exclude men
like himself from public life, but there was one thing they
could not do—lss spoke with sincere respect and with a
knowledge of the parliament and people of England, which
they did not posems—they could not by spiritual siltation
or by political influence extort from the people of England
the demand coatained in this letter. (Hear, beer,)
Mr. M. O'FERRALL said a speech more contradictory and
more dangerous to the peace of the country which the
Attorney-Oeneral for Ireland was charged to defend he had
never heard than the speech of the right hop. gentleman.
It was with great humiliation that he heard a gentleman
professing the mine religion as himself calumniate the pre.
late. of his church. He had stated that the prelates of the
Irish church demanded to have the sum provided for educa•
titre's that country placed entirely in their hands. Now,
on the part of twenty-eight bishops who signed that paper
be denied that imputation. He denied it on the authority
of a great many of them, with whom he hail had personal
communication. They said the state had • right to the in-
apection, to see that the children bad • good. secular educa-
tion, but that it had no right to interfere with
the religious inetruction of the people. They com-
plained that the books which were provided for the educe-
tion of the children were preisred by protestant authors.
He was unwilling to trespass upon the time of the commit-
tee, but he wished to parte the defence of Mr. M'llouald of
the national system of education, and he wished to say with
respect to that gentleman that he had known him fur 33
years, and if it had not been for him the claims of the ca-
. tholice under that system would have been far more neg-
lected than they had been. He (Mr. H. O'Ferrall) sought
.no advantage for the catholic--alt be sought for them was
' equality. Early in life he had joined the Kildare-plate
. • [Society, and remained a member of it up to the time when
r its efforts at proselytism became SO great, but