The Express.
London, England, 1858-06-11 00:00:00

A BANKRUPT MEMBER.

Mr. FITZROY moved for a copy of the record of the ad-
judication in bankruptcy spinet Mr. John Townsend, the
member foe Greenwich.
Agreed to.
THE COUNTY FRANCHISE BILL.

Mr. L. KING, in moving the second reading of this bill,
Mend that Its clauses were taken from the Reform Bill intro-
diced by Lord J. Russell in 1862. When he introduced a
stellar bill list year it was opposed by a small but certainly
fileential seeks of the liberal party, namely, her Majesty's
hie selablees ; bat he was glad to Bad from an explanations
Made by Lead Granville In soother place, that the reason o
that opposition was merely became the government of the
day thought the bill was dated in such • manner that
they could sot introduce into ft the alterations which they
intended to make. As he (the bon. member) was not a person
to quarrel about words, he bad thought it better to adopt
the language of the measure bought forward by Lord Aber-
deen's government, of which most of the late administration
had been members, and whose support he hoped he should
now oblate. He proposed, if the house would allow him,
to readabeta a esered time, and when it went into some
mitten to move the insertion of the very clause whirl was
in the bill of Lord Aberdeen's government, requiring that
part of the qualification should be a dwelling-house. Mem-
ber. on the opposition side of the house could not well ob-
ject to this bill. Lord Palinassen wee • member of Lord
Aberdeen's government; and not only did be approve of the
principle of the bill but he must have been• party to the
very words of it. Sir Charles Wood, who was obliged to
make some apology to his conatitneats at Halifax at the last
election, was • petty to these very words. The name of Bir
James Graham was on the bill ; ha approved of it, and he
bad since most conaistanily given his rapport to the
pebeiple. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Cantwell was also a
member of Lord Aberdeen's goverment, and be therefore
claimed his vote. (Hear hear.) Lord J. Russell had intro-
duel a bill embodying the same principle ; and since 1864
he had most consistently and with great ability given his
support to the principle of this bill. (Hear, hear.) It was
matter of great tatiefeation that in the course of the many
debates and discuesions on this bill no one bad made any
serious objection to Its principle. Had anybody been able
to make out that the class proposed to be enfranchised were
not 8t to be entrusted with the franchise, that would have
been an insurmountable objection. But almost one
who hid spoken had admitted that as voters they werealm al
unobjectionable. It was admitted that they posommed the
political capacity ; and the right ought to follow the capacity.
The only objection was that the measure was Inexpedient. At
the paring of the Reform Bill it had been admitted that the
political capacity resided in • rental of tea pounds in
certain localities. All that he asked the house to do was
to desl is • penal way with those who did not rade in
those localities. He did not ask them to disfranchise one
small borough, or even a single individual, desirable es that
might be in some cases. (Hear, hear.) He only inked
them to give the same right to • certain clan of persons
whom they admitted to be • safe body to poems the fran-
chise, without reference to the locality In which they resided.
To say that the political capacity existed in certain places
and not in others, was to hold that it belonged to the locality,
and not to the individual. (Hew, bear.) This,
had been utterly refuted at the time of the Reform argument
the right was taken away from the monads and ruins of
Oates and Old Boum. It bad also been said that this bill
did not deal with the question generally—that it ought
to deal with borough. as well as counties. But what
womb have been said, if he bad been presumptuous
bough to bring in such • bill f It would have
ben said at once that the question was too large. He had
determined that the only objection to him measure should be,
sot that It was too large, but too small. If they were to wait
for a large and extensive measure of psrliszaintary reform
they must wait f some time, for the tow and temper both
of parliament and the country did not meet to be sow in fa-
vour of any great measure. (Chews from the government
side.) Ile had always bit that it was by piecemeal legisla-
tion only that they could arrive at .ray eel at the present
time. He did sot wish to watt for • time of great palatal
excitsasset, ea at the Reform Bill, when reform would be en-
totted from them, as It was then, by szeitment amounting
almost to phynosli force. The Chastener of the Exchequer
had need a small objection to his Ilitaisit
eit would tend
to increase an anomaly at present He mid that
while 160 members represented soroetbiag 690,000 cionati.
timers in counties, in the boroughs 330membersrapneented•
constituency of about 460,000. That was • quaint= which
concerned the proportion of members to cosautueats ; and if
the right bon. gentleman would bring in a bill to make the
somber of members in proportion to the population, thus
adopting another point of " the charter"—that of electoral
districts—whether those districts were round or square, the
meanwe should have his cordial support. (Hear, hear.) Thal
complaint did not come with good gran from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, for the oounty of which he was so theist-
gabbed an ornament was overloaded with members. The
total population of the county of Bucks, including the re-
melted towns, was only 165.000, and it had eleven mem-
Comparing that with East Surrey, he found that in
the latter district nearly 680,000 persons wen represented by
only seven members. Or taking the musty of Books, ex-
clusive of the represented towns, he found that 116,000
inhabitants had three members, while the West
Riding of Yorkshire, with a population of nearly
800,000 had only two. In the counties only one person In
23 had a vote ; in the boroughs 1 in 18. The statistics showed
hpw Tony slow was the thanes of county electors. Is
184849, the total number of county voters was 503,662; and
according to the last return it was only 606,988, being an in-
crease of 2,436 rely in ten years. The number of borough
shows had Increased in the same period from 368,822 to
439,046, to
an berms@ of 70,224. Taking the pro-
perty messed to the poor-rate in the counties (excluding the
represented town) it was 44,618.001 E., while in the boroughs
it was 23,181,0001. This showed that there were reasons
why the number of electors in counties should be increased.
It was • paltry excuse to edam an banes to the electoral
body in the counties on the pound of there being such •
number already. It was bard to reject the claim of a
Pawns who engin to be on. of a number of electorn—to
grudge him the in, ten, or 20,090 th sham in the &cabs
of members Be. county, while in many boroughs as oh elec-
tor bed • NM or I,oooth share. He loped OA house
would wet Min le pre this bill. The insmbere of the Lie
heTtatietelet will set p• beck from the prlatt.le they had
OMB. ISe hei fhb a emceed= be this by t=
task ems ewe. lie bard that the (en alumna
net mien this ben is the people; the seuessita wait
some with fie pasta Etre from than to rave. Hs herd
that the Chessiter of the Exchequer weld sot make a
premiss et of tam =seem DOW ; Be be teas 614 thgt

Lord P h-LMERBTON roes eadmil—Mr. Smoker, Iwo it'd
till the lest inmost, till you were about loprincientie fin we
words which would havered themouthe elitadesessashiy,l °
order to know the line white her Majeette pevenemat amp
take with regard to this motion. (" Bear, besot
_" lad •
laugh.) But as the house ere to divide without tonowlng
what mune the government are limn to I Deg my-
self bound to answer the appealts--ehe In Mabee
appeale—ftenghter)—whith ham been mode to me and 10
my right hon. friends by the two hon. paths= who Ism
proposed and wooded the amendment. We base ellen hal
ameba during this men= to feel companioning*, piddle
condition in which her Majesty's goveremeed bee bar
(" Oh, oh I" sad " Hear, hear.") X _Tiff mos lei) id.
Sewweddy profaning le rest on a annildireVlBlBlo
dent in support on the infieranoe of a majority et Mesa.
I (Heist bier.) But never ow any 000ssion hove ewe studs
of Mims been put out to those who do set Wang to
He government as on the present—sot Weed by
the government itself, but by those who, how
Me @Beam of the unwary bench. mast be omaMend as ex-
peoreg their sentiments. (Hear, hear.) Both the hon. ,
pudenda who moved the amendment, in a speech of great '
dilly end promise, and which must be greetylag to all
these who heard
him—(hear hear —end the hoe. 'outlives*
who followed him, appealed in fee accents for en ppirt to
Lior.o;th
those who sit here; and the ground, on which they
asked for essidance was the meidenco oonservethe
loesobers gum to the late government en a forum occeolon.
(" Hear Mir," from the misistedsl bobcats) The hos.
gentlemen aye that in Febtua, 1867, there wee as is-
, surrectioa and mutiny in the of those who supported
the then government—that the conservative party came to
the mesas, and afforded them relief. (Hear, hear.) That
wee, I have so doubt, a very tharitable at. (Laughter.)
Bat Is February, 1838, there wee also • mutiny and an in-
surrection In the ranks of the government, and what
did the eamervative party then do ? (Hear, hear.)
They joined the ranks of the insurgents and overthrew the
than constituted authorities. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
Febreary, 1868, may be set off against February, lan.
(. Hear, ban," and laughter.) The present condition of
He goverement and the language held to-night reminds me
aides miserable condition of the former inhabitants of this
blood when it was deserted by the Romans. They said as
the government now do : ' The barbarians "—they look
upon as sitting here as barbwiene—(laughter)—" the
barbarians drive us to the eia "—the troubled waters below
the gangway—(laughter)— • and now the sea drives us
beck to the barbarians." (Laughter.) Sir, I hold myself
entirely free to act on this occasion on my own opinion, with-
out being bound by any obligation of gratitude to thegentle-
Teen on the other side of the house. (" Hear, bear,', and •
laugh.) Last year, when my hon. friend brought in his bill
it wee different in point of title end intention from
that which be now brings in. (Oh, oh.) That was a bill to
sesimilate the county and borough franchise, but this bill is
• bill to improve and extend—but not either by title or In-
tention to maimilate—the two froochims. (" Oh, oh," and
" Hear, hear.") We lad year had snnounced our intention
to propose in the present session of parliament a bill upon
parliamentary reform, and as we had intended to embrace in
that bill arrangements with regard to the county franchise,
we were of opinion that the house ought to trust um so far
as to postpone any decision on the county franchise last
year, and wait till we produced our /26/11Oire. (Hear.) But
the present government are not pledged to produce any mea-
sure, they are merely pledged to consider the question; but
consideration and deeiaion are two different things,
for decision cannot be deferred, whilst considera-
tion may last a very long time. (Hear, hear.)
I hold that this bill is not the bill which wee proposed last
year. (Oh.) Gentlemen may say that though the title
is different and the purview of the bill dose not imply slid-
Wily of the borough end county trandilm, the mesa.
in which the blanks are proposed to be filled up would show
what is its real object. (Hear, hear.) That le the reel
fact ; but those who, like myself, adhere to the °pinkie
which was expressed by many—that it would be eadmirable
to assimilate the borough and county franchise by re-
ducing the county franchise to 101.—those persons
may with perfect consistency vote for the second reeding of
this bill, with the intention when it gets into committee of
proposing an alteration in the franchise to be ea:Wished as
tie for county voters. (Hear, hear.) Therefore
any man who contemplates a reduction in the present rate of
county franchise may with perfect consistency vote for the
second reading of the bill, reserving to himself, when the
bill goes into committee, the right of propos-
ing the particular amount of qualification which
he thinks ought to exist. (Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Therefore I em not one of those who think the county fran-
chise ought not to be reduced. I think we may advan-
tageously reduce that franchise, and extend toe certain amount
the *minty constituency ; end, therefore, when I em called
on to choose between negativing this bill and agreeing to the
eased reading, I must agree to the second reading, with that
reserve I have mentioned se to the areenat of the qualifica-
tion. (Heir, bear.) Many of the arguments used in favour
of the MU are, however, such as I must retain from 'greying
to, One of to grounds urged Ia favour of It is, that it will
get rid of aamounly In our representative mem. Now, air
I defy you by any legislation to get rid of anomalies
in the representative system. If you will divide the country
into parellelogrems, make electoral didrices and award
21raWives to equal numbers, even thee you will not get
( anorimliee. homely merely meths something which
in to opinion of the man using the word la at variance
with en imaginary rule which he had laid down for himself
in the matter. A man who think. representation should be
reguleted by numerical equality will say you have got rid of
an anomaly if you equalise the numbers of voters; but a man
who thinks that the rule of representation ought to have refo-
rmat, to the dlierest borate and ammo lobe represented will
tell you, you have imeeesed the anomalies if you divide the
country into decked Matelot& I defy
_the ingenuity of man
to fewer a reproesdativo system which will not be full of
what the were asking the objection is pleased to call
ansmilles. We see also told that It is hotter to make
the ohmage sow, bemuse we will be called on by a stmeg
Impulse to seeks the &asp afterwards under Me
rvotar:lle circessismes—(hear, hmr)—and we are referred
to what took plan at the passing of the Reform Bill la
183'2. But b that bill there WIWI a sise
which no man could fail to admit wee in the highest
obje tionable. Imaginary boroughs returned neembers,7:l7l:
kyr, wealthy, and industrious communfties hod so voice in
legislation. That was • mate of things which if oneeldered
meld not be dehoded by any argument. TWO state of
thug., hawser, I seeset emit to be en mem* kr the
• limb sow no peat national demand for a change
presser
the sissen heeded on the arrangement then made. That,
however, le no reason against looking Into the premed system
and eadeavetatag to Improve such parts se may he susceptible
of improvement ; It Is an argument for deliberate and reason-
able consideration, but an argument against going headlong
OD any without time to consider, on a false sus-
picion orlrgaldriven by popular impalas. I do not object
to bit-by-bit reform; it might be better, perhaps, to leave
this measure to be incorporated es part of a more general
scheme. I do not believe the nation at large to be at present
very anxious for any great fundamental change. (Hear,
hear.) I believe the Home of Commons to be much more
forward in the matter than the nation it repayments. ("Hier,
hear," from the ministerial benches.) At the same thee,
whoa I en called on to decide on this measure, I mood 8.-
dare Uri the county franchise cannot be Incpeded, end I
imagent seedy
usorwri
aintwoomndttse,44.6.,c.i.frithage
tobilawl sewhei stratel:
gres sod M what extent the munty franchise as be reduced
carbeest with the interests tithe country, sad a due regard
to that balance of interests on which oerogreatanve
system rests. (Chimes andIAD. of "
Mr. HENLEY mid the seine lord bed vaned an tree
the of saying a word epee the aressess es he
had eased fa plain language every elisedes thee weld be
urged egeinet the bill. Ten bon. teem bed seed is ere
on the soh ground of aentafistieg the
lyealol.thise,ft.hwand.rizigonoo:ltieror a ergernoftba.ghtiftruankiseut
beamdpelltiliFighs. a
aeopanattyy. The noble lord said he would set yds for a 101.
freniloe; he told them he was willing =Lower the
toasty franchise, but vote 101. he never , hear)
—be did not tell them what he weld vote he. (User,
bar.) The noble lord oceepleteed that se ember
had got up from the adaistarlel but the
hoe. mover bed bees followed In eseeeelen, by tw• hes.
ormariee has that ids Of the been Is not very
lakfili SlOSlbill. and it Ins Waal to mew that out el the
viski7=barberlass, as the sale lord rolled thee
...amptals would have got up le sapped, by Me
21 es lis vote, the nodes of Se ha. amber floe
vory pertinent sneaks bed tem r hei by the
M"lrn;eeher for Beat Illeawart (Mr. Mk* whet weld be
legislating oil the subpdat tido lime f The Tr
by
la the counties would beaver Wow the bill mil
NA they could gala nothing by tegielealaa sow. The
wee not whither they would have a 10f. hibachi's Is
or not, but whether they would embark in may Is-
en what pounds they should settle the presete f Sep
bad bee nabs to the speech of a selis tad Is
emethw piss. The speaker wee not ease be trier
hsgeop and then sot mot up to It. riw
lime dpmeloss, b. apt mil Whether, by NOM

now taken, they thought they muld may facilitate the set-
tlement of the general question 111-‘OVd they not, rather,
• throw great impediments in the way', The hoover of the
amendment had stated the grounds tin wbiott they ought.
then, to go into the question ; but it would be mfair to meet
the motion by • direct negative when the government were
&died to look into the question with • view to a settlement.
The only urged by the mover wan to assimilate the
county anframegh franchise. Everybody knew It w
bill for a 101. franchise, and the noble lord was only apss:kai
pleading with his own party, stating he would vote for the
motion, and in the same breath_ telling them he would
not vote for • 101. franchise, but that when they
went into committee he would tell them what he should do.
Any member who brought forward such a measure 1111 this
was bound to give the home some information as to what the
probable 'act of it would be. The nave system
we made up of a net of balance of different interesta, yet
tee bee. member for Surrey had not pointed out how
one of them would ha affected ; the system was an •
and they could only bops to obtain such a balance of ano-
malies ea would make all Interests be properly and fairly re-
presented. The bill proposed to mitmilate the county and
borough franchise, but another proposed to lower that
in boroughs to 61. Wu the county to follow ?
It was not wise or just to attempt to prejudge
the question, and m throw an impediment in the way of
government in the endeavour which they would honestly
L cake to am their way to a settlement of the whole question.
la 'et • single
_armament had been urged in favour of the bill
noble leed's aims& was dead against it, therefore there
gas Nadia. Ike NM to answer. He believed tits bill would
amp use en impadlownt to a settlement of the general
/Lotto, and he should therefore support the amendment.
we, heart" and loud cries of " Divide.")
Tb. Litenee Urn divided on the question, " That the quon-
dam 14 Itow
yen Pat." The numbers were—
foal
168-68
The ann. ounceinent of the numbers wee received with con-
siderable oh e.rness,
The SPEs %UR then put the question that the bill be
read a second tines, which was agreed to without • division.
UNI VENSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE having presented some peti-
tions in femur of this bill, moved that it be read • second
lime.

Hr. BLACK detailed at neck length bis objections to the
bill, which, he ea ti, would isibiet a gross and irreparable in-
foxy upon the al and College of Edinbergh, and upon the
putt
ma .He moved to defer the woad veraling
for ths.

—Kr. C. BRIMS defended. the MB, obeerviag that the ob-
jections a Mr. Bleck related to matiers IM comidermion la
the committee.

Colonel SYKES strongly condensed the measure, cm-
the violence of the changes it would Introduce end
its invasion of vested interests.

Mr. BTEUAAT onthe Other head. warmly supvmd
the bill, which, he believed, would meet with the approbation
of all impartial, unprejudiced persons in Scotland.
The details rather than the principle of the measure con-
tinued to be diactuold by Sir W. Dunbar, Mr. Daslop, Mr.
Stirling, Mr. Cowan, and other members.
The LORD ADVOCATE made • general reply in de-
fence of the bill. The opposition of Mr. rad Colossi
Sykes were founded, he observed, entirely upon lead consi-
derations; but he thought that local feelings outht•not to
be allowed to go far in • question of this kind. These were
national institutions intended for the of ref'
and learning in Scotland. He noticed various
caned in the course of the debate, some of whi7ll7t7ro-
=teed to take into consideration, observing that a mauls*
upon such a subject must from its nature be imperfect, and
require very great alteration.
Mr. BLACK having withdrawn his amendment, the bill
was read a second time.

The ►ouse then went into committee upon the Joint-
Stook Banking Companies Bill, the clauses of which were
agreed to.
On the motion that the Chairman leave the chair,
Mr. COWAN expressed his opinion that this was not •
bill which should have met the approval of the house. He
gave notice that on the third reading he should move that
the bill be read a " second" time that day six months.
(Roars of laughter.)
Mr. WILSON said it was his intention to move an in-
struction to the committee that insurance companies should
be included In it. He found that there were difficulties in
cthehanz6vra anadtiteEb.ad not.rdittroll I
ws tle. wredtitoonasol; the
the
government to introduce any measure to regulate insurance
ocespsalss?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the subject was an important one, but, in tho present
stale at public bnainess,ieweld not make such a promise.
The CHAIRMAN Hat reported progress, and the house
resumed.